[Deck] B/g/w Deadguy Rock

[Hanni]

Prologue

A few people suggested making a new thread for this deck. The deck is a bit different than traditional Deadguy and seems a bit off track to discuss in the B/w Deadguy thread... so I created a new one. If the mods feel this needs to be merged back into the Deadguy thread, that's fine. I think it warrants its own thread, though.

Decklist

B/w/g Deadguy Rock
Aggro/Board Control
A Hanni Homebrew

Lands (22)
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scrubland
3 Bayou
4 Swamp
4 Wasteland

Creatures (11)
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells (27)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard (15)
3 Unmask
3 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia
1 Pernicious Deed

Deck Information

I believe the deck adequately supports a 3c splash. All of the lands (besides Wasteland) still produce black, it's rather easy to get BB (even with basic swamps), and the deck still has Dark Ritual as additional black mana sources. 22 Lands + 4 Rituals has been more than enough in my playtesting, even against mana denial decks. The deck is still predominantly black, with 7 MD white spells and 7 MD green spells.

Most of the core of traditional Deadguy is still left in tact (and made better, IMO):

12 LD spells
8 Discard spells
11 Creature Removal spells
7 Large Creatures

The deck drops Hyppie. I've never been a fan of Hyppie in this deck. Tarmogoyf gives the deck 7 big finishing creatures. Tarmogoyf can get really large early. This improves the aggro matchups by giving me an undercosted fatty. It also improves my board control and combo matchups by giving me a faster clock (the clock is extremely fast). Tarmgoyf is a frickin house. The deck easily funds Tarmogoyf with 12 sac lands (and LD), 16 sorceries, 11 creatures (plus creature removal), 8 instants, and 3 enchantments MD... not to mention the fact that I can discard spell types from my opponent's hand too. It is not uncommon to drop a Tarmogoyf on turn 2 as a 4/5... and it is not uncommon to get Tarmogoyf up to 5/6 and even 6/7. 1G for a 6/7 is just so rediculously broken that I can't even explain it.

The deck runs a low threat base and Pernicious Deed. Since the deck only ever really needs to commit one guy to the board (aside from Confidant in addition to), Deed doesn't hurt this deck much. Drop Deed then Drop Tarmogoyf is an extremely strong play. This deck doesn't utilize any other artifacts/enchantments either. With Ritual, the deck can pop Deed for 1 on turn 2. Deed, along with Shade, give the deck functional uses out of topdecked Rituals mid-late game (as well as making functional use out of mana floods). Deed is simply nuts in this deck. The deck is a resource denial deck and Deed is a mass resource denial spell. With Vindicate, the deck easily answers artifacts/enchantments. The deck already answers lands. With StP, the deck answers creatures extremely well too. Combined with the stack control of discard, the deck can pretty much answer everything. Deed seems to improve nearly every matchup and I feel like it is exactly what Deadguy needed.

Tarmogoyf + Deed has been amazing in testing, and I've playtested this deck alot. I've played countless matches against Tier 1/2 decks on MWS so far. I don't think I've lost a 2/3 game set yet (I may have lost 1 or 2, not sure).

The addition of 4 StP as opposed to 2 or 0 improves my Goblins matchup further, as well as other aggro matchups. I always felt like the biggest weakness for Deadguy was aggro matchups (mainly fast paced decks like Goblins, Affinity, and even Elves). The additions of Tarmogoyf, StP, and Deed really seem to shore my aggro matchups up drastically.

I love the way the MD and SB is configured. The maindeck is basically aggro/board control... except the board control includes LD too. The maindeck still has stack control with 8 MD discard spells. In postboard games, the deck can adopt stack control (6 cards) or more board control (9 cards). This allows the deck to hybridize to beat what it needs to extremely effeciently. The deck has answers to nearly everything, and Extirpate even gives me graveyard hate too.

Honestly, I think this deck is good enough to be a DTB if it ever catches, from my testing with it. It beats combo pretty handily, especially postboard (fast combo and control combo). It beats aggro/control pretty handily too, especially postboard (Fish, Thresh, Slivers, even B/r Sui somewhat). It also does really well against board control, especially postboard (4c Landstill, etc). My Goblins matchup is really good too, especially postboard... in fact, all of my aggro matchups are improved by the green splash, and I've been beating aggro strategies pretty handily in testing. I'm not saying this deck doesn't lose, or that this deck is the best deck, but this deck just feels so overpowered. Bash me all you want for my opinions.

SB Strategies, Outlined for the 4 Decktypes

SB plan vs Threshold:

-4 Sinkhole
-3 Swords to Plowshares
+4 Dystopia
+3 Extirpate

LD is good against Threshold, but board control is better. 1 StP, 4 Vindicate, 4 Dystopia, and 3 Deed (along with Tarmo and Shade as somewhat anti aggro), the deck pretty much keeps their board clean. Extirpate adds insult to injury by decreasing their threat count.

I love how this deck feels like aggro/board control. I classify Landstill as aggro/board control, but I like how this deck is just so much more aggressive.

SB plan vs Goblins:

-4 Duress
+4 Engineered Plague

The deck still plays the LD game with Wasteland, Vindicate, Sinkhole, and Deed (vs Vial), but the deck transforms into board control too. 4 StP, 4 Vindicate, 4 Engineered Plague, 3 Deed keep the table clear. Tarmogoyf and Nantuko Shade are beasts when the Goblins opponent only has one or a few small Goblins in play. The vulnerability against Goblins comes from the 3c manabase vs Wasteland/Port... the deck does run 22 lands and 4 mana sources though, and along with it's own set of LD (that might keep the opponent from attacking your manabase as aggressively), I think the deck should be just fine. I can see this deck getting locked out of colors if played improperly... fetch a few basic Swamps first, and crack fetchlands for color sources when you are about to play said spell, and you shouldn't have too many problems.

SB plan vs Fast Combo

-4 Sinkhole
-4 Vindicate
-2 Swords to Plowshares
+3 Unmask
+3 Extirpate
+4 Engineered Plague

LD isn't really that good against decks like Belcher, which don't rely on land mana sources. Vindicate is also too slow to be relevant. Unmask comes in as additional turn 1 discard, while Extirpate can be used to hose win conditions. Engineered Plague is there to protect against EtW, with Ritual to power it out if need be.

SB plan vs Slow Combo

-4 Swords to Plowshares
-2 Pernicious Deed
+3 Unmask
+3 Extirpate

LD is usually effective against decks like Salvagers, Aluren, and Solidarity. They all typically need 4 lands to go off, where the LD plan buys tons of time. The deck still adds Unmask as additional discard and Extirpate to hose win conditions.

SB plan vs (4c) Landstill

-3 Pernicious Deed
+3 Extirpate

What I love about Extirpate is it's versatility. Landstill's biggest weakness (and most control decks) is LD... Extirpate plays right into the LD game by removing Fetches/Duals, or pulling out win conditions since the run so few (which, against 4c Landstill, happen to be lands too). Deed is good at answering Crucible, and Standstill to an extent, but Vindicate should have that covered for the most part. Deed does effect their manlands, so it's still good in that respect, but I think StP and Vindicate (with Extirpate) should have that covered. Locking them out of G/W keeps them off Monastery anyway. Shade + Tarmogoyf outsize all of their threats and the deck can easily ride 1 threat to victory. They are forced to make 1 for 1 trades because of this. Confidant gives me a draw engine and my proactive disruption attacks their reactive disruption.

Epilogue

I'll udpate with more info as I do more playtesting and as I get more time to add more stuff.

I frickin love this deck.

Enjoy.

[Citrus-God]

Personally, I think you should cut the 4th Swords against Threshold altogether, and just side in the 4th Deed.

I also think an extra set of Threats coming from the board would be pretty good for this deck.

[dre4m]

Hanni, as much as I love your decks and respect you as a designer, I am seeing a serious problem with running maindeck Deeds and only eleven low casting cost kill conditions. Granted a late-game Shade or Tarmogoyf can probably go all the way, but if you have killed even two of your eleven creatures, your opponents may be able to remove whatever else you draw, with the odds of drawing enother one low enough for them to win in the meantime. This is possibly born from my status as a Truffle Shuffle player, where removal is almost the entire deck, and the creatures laugh at STP and Deed, but I see your low threat density and zero evasion as a huge hurdle. Then again, the rather low concentration of control may make this largely irrelevant, so Threshold would be a more important matchup. Against Thresh, is your discard always enough to stop them from countering/killing all your threats?

Nitpick: You do not play twelve LD spells. You play eight LD spells and four Wasteland. Sorry, but I actually did a double-take and looked for the 3 Rancid Earth.

[Elfrago]

NAntuko Shade seems just bad to me... Jotun Grunt should be 10 times better. 'Goyf and Grunt are really a good set of undercosted beaters...

[dre4m]

NAntuko Shade seems just bad to me... Jotun Grunt should be 10 times better. 'Goyf and Grunt are really a good set of undercosted beaters...

Last time I checked, Tarmogoyf and Jotun Grunt didn't work very well together...

[Tao]

I don't know where to post this. This is not deadguy and not your deck, but another new thread would be stupid.
I build a similar deck, but with Smallpox instead of Swords to Plowshares. I felt the mana base was overloaded with both splashes.

Tombstalker is a real bomb, I never had problems with him and Tarmo because when you cast it there are always many multiple cards of one type in the yards. Revealing him with Confidant is a risk you have to take, but he is great with Deed.


// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [U] Bayou
6 [RAV] Swamp (1)
1 [RAV] Overgrown Tomb
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [TO] Nantuko Shade
2 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [IA] Dark Ritual
4 [7E] Duress
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
4 [U] Sinkhole
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [TSP] Smallpox

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [AL] Dystopia
SB: 4 [FNM] Withered Wretch
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

[ReAnimated]

4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [FUT] Tombstalker

Last time i heard dealing 8 to urself is bad...unless of course ur untapping Phyrexian Colossus.

Jokes aside, other than flipping him over for a whooping 8 to youself he hurts gofy as well maybe just cut him for another shade and somethign else.

Well Tombstalker doesnt hurt gofy all that much but it does to a certain extent.

[Hanni]

Personally, I think you should cut the 4th Swords against Threshold altogether, and just side in the 4th Deed.

I also think an extra set of Threats coming from the board would be pretty good for this deck.

Well, I kinda like the lone StP. It's additional diversity vs Meddling Mage and it's also an early and cheap answer to opposing Goyfs, etc. 4 Deed seems like overkill with 4 Dystopia. Also, I run 3 because they run Needle. Overall that board plan vs Threshold has been winning me countless games vs them. I've seen people say constantly that the best application of Tarmogoyf was in Threshold but yet I've been smashing Threshold religiously, so I dunno.

Extra set of threats vs what? Thresh? I much prefer the board control strategy of 1 StP, 4 Vindicate, 4 Dystopia, 3 Deed, and 3 Extirpate (on win conditions). Also keep in mind that the low threat count of 11 is necessary for this deck because it plays board control too.


I am seeing a serious problem with running maindeck Deeds and only eleven low casting cost kill conditions.

You are misunderstanding how to use Deed properly then. Early game, you are playing control. Discard, LD, Removal. The opponent puts permanents into play, this deck removes them. Deed is amazing. Once control has been established, at least somewhat, then you can drop a beater. You only ever need 1 guy in play to go the distance... on a clear table (because of Deed), a 5/6 Tarmogoyf can easily go the distance. You can drop a guy early as anti aggro, which I do occasionally. The deck only runs 3 Deeds, so this doesn't conflict very often (and the deck can easily Deed 1 of my finishers away and then proceed to drop another).

The low threat count is actually why Deed is so good here. The low threat count consists of 7 finishing guys... meaning you can just keep playing board control and then switch over and play the kill. The design itself may not make sense at first on paper. Try it out in practice. It's extremely strong.


Granted a late-game Shade or Tarmogoyf can probably go all the way, but if you have killed even two of your eleven creatures

The thing about this is that I don't just drop guys and hope they live. I play control first. I hit my opponent's with discard. I hit my opponent's with LD. My opponent is being put off balance. I drop a finisher when they are off balance and then win the game before they can recover. If a creature gets removed, I'm still running 6 more large finishers. If anything, the fact that this deck has 7 big creatures as opposed to the Confidant/Hyppie/Shade list makes this deck even less vulnerable to removal IMO.


but I see your low threat density and zero evasion as a huge hurdle.

Right. That's why I play 11 MD removal spells, 3 of them being mass removal. I keep the board clear, of basically everything, and then drop a huge finisher that doesn't have evasion. The few stuff my opponent has left on the table is almost always lower quality than my 4/5 (average Tarmo) or 7/6 (average Shade w/ pumps). They can chump, but only for so long. Then they die quickly. I already explained the threat density situation. The low threat density is the whole reason why this deck concept works.


Then again, the rather low concentration of control may make this largely irrelevant, so Threshold would be a more important matchup. Against Thresh, is your discard always enough to stop them from countering/killing all your threats?

Low concentration of control? Are you kidding me? How in the hell does this deck have a low concentration of control? The only thing it has a low concentration of is draw (4 Confidant). Otherwise, besides the 7 big beaters, the entire rest of the deck is control. Discard, LD, and Removal. The Threshold matchup is fantastic, especially postboard. They can have countermagic all they want, my proactive discard negatively affects their reactive counters... and regardless, I simply run too much removal for them to counter all of it anyway (1 StP, 4 Vindicate, 4 Dystopia, 3 Deed, with 3 Extirpate to remove win conditions). They can StP a couple of my guys, I'll just topdeck into more. If they run burn, they can't even answer my beaters without 2 or 3-for1'ing themselves. This deck has more, and larger, win conditions than 4c Landstill, and the black-based control is more punishing against Threshold than opposing blue-based control, so I'm not sure what the problem is.


NAntuko Shade seems just bad to me... Jotun Grunt should be 10 times better. 'Goyf and Grunt are really a good set of undercosted beaters...

Have you ever played Deadguy? Nantuko Shade is crucial. Grunt is a 1W for a temporary 4/4 graveyard hoser, Shade is BB for a 9/8 game finisher (9/8 isn't an exageration either). Big difference there. For this deck especially, the big finisher is alot more potent. However, Tarmogoyf + Grunt have terrible synergy anyway.

As far as Tombstalker goes, I really don't see why I'd need him. The deck runs 7 big beaters right now and I have never felt a need for more, and I haven't had a problem with lack of evasion at all either. Tombstalker has bad synergy with the deck similar to Grunt, albeit not as bad, and it has bad synergy with Confidant as well.

@ Tao

You really need Vindicate though. I think Vindicate is the strongest card in the deck. 13 threats is also a bit worse with running 4 Smallpox and 4 Deed... with that sort of control package, you aren't going to want to commit any threats on the board until the board is clear and you're just going to be drawing into extra guys you don't want to drop... or you're going to be killing off your own guys, which is bad. 13 threats isn't really too bad, or too much of a difference from 11, but the 2 less creatures does actually improve the board control philosophy a little more.

[dre4m]

Low concentration of control? Are you kidding me? How in the hell does this deck have a low concentration of control? The only thing it has a low concentration of is draw (4 Confidant). Otherwise, besides the 7 big beaters, the entire rest of the deck is control. Discard, LD, and Removal. The Threshold matchup is fantastic, especially postboard. They can have countermagic all they want, my proactive discard negatively affects their reactive counters... and regardless, I simply run too much removal for them to counter all of it anyway (1 StP, 4 Vindicate, 4 Dystopia, 3 Deed, with 3 Extirpate to remove win conditions). They can StP a couple of my guys, I'll just topdeck into more. If they run burn, they can't even answer my beaters without 2 or 3-for1'ing themselves. This deck has more, and larger, win conditions than 4c Landstill, and the black-based control is more punishing against Threshold than opposing blue-based control, so I'm not sure what the problem is.

.

I meant that there was a low concentration of control in the METAGAME, not in your deck!

[Hanni]

My appologies, dre4m. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I also hope you didn't view my post as hostile, cause it wasn't intended to be that way in the first place. If you think about it from my position though, that does sound rediculous to say that this deck has a low concentration of control.

As far as the metagame goes, I still think their is a fair bit of control. Not traditional control, like 4c Landstill, but control in the form of Threshold and similar decks. Most aggro decks nowadays are running either 7 discard spells or at least 7 countermagic spells to fight off combo. I constantly get paired up against decks like Loam and such on MWS though. The MWS metagame is pretty random, which is why I posted a SB strategy and matchup analysis sorta thing for the 4 major archtypes.

Most aggro/control decks, from my experience, have at least 50/50-ish matchups across the whole field. Fish and Thresh do this and I've always felt like Deadguy did this as well. Relevant topdecks and playskill usually tend to be the biggest factorts. With this Deadguy list, not only can the deck go at least 50/50 with a majority of the field, there are a bunch of matchups it just steamrolls. I liked Fish for this reason, but this Deadguy list just seems to steamroll far more matchups. The only thing I never liked about Deadguy, and why I prefered Fish, was consistency... Fish runs cantrips and more draw to ensure consistent gameplay. However, I've found this Deadguy list to be extremely consistent.

I frickin love this deck. :p

[Citrus-God]

Extra set of threats vs what? Thresh? I much prefer the board control strategy of 1 StP, 4 Vindicate, 4 Dystopia, 3 Deed, and 3 Extirpate (on win conditions). Also keep in mind that the low threat count of 11 is necessary for this deck because it plays board control too.

Well... not exactly Thresh... I'm thinking against slower decks, like Fish, or Rifter, or even Angel Stompy. Never under estimate the power of boarding in more threats. They can be very strong.

I'm thinking Hidden Gibbons right now, but they're only good against Blue decks. Monasteries suck now. I know Jotun Grunts work as additional threats. I know, I know, I know, you think that Goyf is good enough, but they suck against Grunts. Grunts at least dismantle opposing Goyfs so you never lose the board control war.

[Hanni]

Well... not exactly Thresh... I'm thinking against slower decks, like Fish, or Rifter, or even Angel Stompy. Never under estimate the power of boarding in more threats. They can be very strong.

More threats conflicts with me playing board control. And against the deck you mentioned, board control is really really strong. Dystopia + Deed are both amazing vs Fish and Angel Stompy.

Against board control (like Rifter), I can see where the higher threat density would be a good option. However, board control decks hate LD. Especially Rifter, because it's draw package isn't very strong (cycling isn't nearly as good as something like FoF, IMO). Discard also helps here. The opponent never gets to make card advantage plays because I only commit 1 threat to the board. Discard keeps their hand count low and the LD itself just completely wrecks them. When I compliment the LD/discard with Extirpate, I feel like I'm the better control deck. The other great factor, vs Rifter at least, is that they play alot of permanents like Rift, Humility, etc and I'm playing Vindicate/Deed. So basically what I am saying is, boarding in more threats would help, but simply playing a better control game also helps. Since the deck is already designed to do it this way, it's much easier to just do it this way than to try and reconfigure the deck to use more threats.


I know Jotun Grunts work as additional threats. I know, I know, I know, you think that Goyf is good enough, but they suck against Grunts. Grunts at least dismantle opposing Goyfs so you never lose the board control war.

Well, Goyf does suck against Grunt. I've played UWb Fish vs Thresh w/ Goyf though... the thing about that is, Grunt still takes at least a few turns to start shrinking Goyf usually, and even a 4/5 is still larger than Grunt. I do definitely agree that Grunt is strong vs Goyf, though. However, I am running 8 spot removal spells and 3 mass removal spells, so hopefully opposing Grunt's never stay in play long enough. As far as running them myself, they are anti synergistic with my Goyfs. I'm not worried about opposing Goyfs enough to run Grunt and make my own Goyfs weaker. In fact, Vindicating a Goyf and then Extirpating it is probably the strongest play this deck has vs Threshold.

I shouldn't be losing the board control war often anyway. We both run low threat density's, except they run a ton of cantrip so they tend to see more threats. I run far more removal spells, so I should almost always see more removal. If I don't stabilize the board, then I probably lose. I've yet to be unable to do this though. Grunt is obviously better vs Thresh than my own Tarmogoyfs, but Tarmogoys are still good vs them and about 100x better against the rest of the field. I could board Grunt's, but why? I haven't had problems with Threshold to where I think I need them there and I like Extirpate as graveyard hate much better because of it's versatility of strengthening certain gameplans in certain matchups (like LD vs control decks).

I apologize in advance for being stubborn with peoples suggestions. However, I've been playtesting this deck like I have no life and I don't really see a need to change anything, currently. I mean, the deck can obviously be tuned according the metagame, i.e dropping StP's in an aggro light metagame for MD Extirpate or Unmask, etc. The list, as it is right now though, is built beautifully to go in to a random metagame (like a large tournament) and handle all the randomness, from aggro to combo to etc. Moreso than trying to get the deck tweaked, I just want people to try the deck out. I mean, most of the tweaking has already been done with the past developments of B/w Deadguy itself. Everyone can tune this to their liking, though, which is perfectly fine. I just want to see this deck take off because it clearly has the power to do so.

I think the hardest matchup for this deck is Truffle Shuffle, because both decks utilize similar gameplans but Truffle Shuffle seems to utilize a stronger draw engine (Top) and recurring beaters.

EDIT: On a completely unrelated note, I'm thinking Deadguy Rock is a better deck name than Rockguy.

[CynicalSquirrel]

Love the idea of this deck, and might have to try it out. Tarmogoyf is really the kind of card this sort of deck was missing, and it should make it a lot better vs. other aggro decks.

Anyways, have you considered Loxodon Hierarch at all? He goes a little above the curve maybe and could be steering the deck in a different direction, but it's so unbelievably good against aggro decks that it might be worth it.

I also somewhat question cutting Hypnotic Specter. Without the Specter it seems a lot of the land denial from the original version is gone, and I thought that was one of the most powerful parts of the deck. Overall I just feel like the deck could use another creature, but maybe it's just me.

EDIT: I've also made the decision to call this deck Deadgoyf.

[Fistandantilus]

Why play this instead of the Truffle Shuffle?

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3816

The creator of Truffle Shuffle claims that it has a positive matchup against Deadguy Ale.



Matchups:

. . .

Suicide- I had little trouble with this matchup, actually, which surprised me. The discard and LD failed to make up for the difference in threat density and creature quality; I could always topdeck creature removal while my opponent ripped gradually weakening LD or hand disruption, and my opponent could never adequately deal with the fact that my creatures crushed his in a fair fight. Barring turn 1 Negator/Hyppie in lack of an StP, this is quite favorable

Deadguy Ale- See above, only more so as Deadguy really must try to play an aggro role it's less suited for in this matchup. In both cases sb would be; -8 Discard, -2 DoJ, -1 Wrath of God; +4 Loxodon Hierarch, +4 Eternal Witness, +3 Infest.

[CynicalSquirrel]

Why play this instead of the Truffle Shuffle?

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3816

The creator of Truffle Shuffle claims that it has a positive matchup against Deadguy Ale.
The decks really aren't all that similar. They obviously play the same colors, but they have totally different philosophies and it seems silly to compare them to each other. The positive matchup versus Deadguy Ale is completely irrelevant because the decks will rarely face each other and this version is quite different from the original.

[Honoluluicecaps]

Maybe you don't all like this idea, but I think Knight of Stromgald might be better than Nantuko Shade. I know Shade is a beast, but being pro-white is excellent against a topdecked STP or vindicate, not to mention the pump factor that the knight still has. If there is a general worry about the small number of creatures in the deck than the knight might be a better strategy because of protection.

[Fistandantilus]

The decks really aren't all that similar. They obviously play the same colors, but they have totally different philosophies and it seems silly to compare them to each other. The positive matchup versus Deadguy Ale is completely irrelevant because the decks will rarely face each other and this version is quite different from the original.

OK. So they have different philosophies. I don't think that I ever claimed otherwise.

Does this deck have better matchups against the field than Truffle Shuffle does? If so, how?

Even the author admits that this deck has a hard time with Truffle Shuffle. So I ask again: Why should I play this instead of Truffle Shuffle? Unless this deck has a better matchup against the field than Truffle Shuffle does, I'll play the deck that wins the match between this deck and Truffle Shuffle.

P.S. You say that it is "silly" to compare this deck to Truffle Shuffle, apparently because "they have totally different philosophies," but even the deck's creator has made the comparison AND has EVEN said that the decks have "similar gameplans."



I think the hardest matchup for this deck is Truffle Shuffle, because both decks utilize similar gameplans but Truffle Shuffle seems to utilize a stronger draw engine (Top) and recurring beaters.

Perhaps you are the one who is "silly."

[Hanni]

Anyways, have you considered Loxodon Hierarch at all?


I also somewhat question cutting Hypnotic Specter.

Loxodon Hierarch is solid, but requiring both off colors just seems way too constricting. 4cc is also a little out of the curve and generally too slow against the aggro decks this deck has problems with (fast aggro). I see the benefit with it and Deed, but I still don't think it's going to fit well.

Hypnotic Specter is a 2/2 flyer for 3cc. What is it really good against? So many decks in the format can answer a 2/2 flyer, especially when it costs 3cc, and how devastating is it really? The deck is generally going to put fast aggro decks into topdeck mode anyway. The deck has plenty of A 2/2 flyer just seems fundamentally flawed compared to a 6/7 beatstick, IMO. The random discard is great, but this deck has sufficient disruption tools as is and I think a fatter creature is a better choice for aggro. I've never really liked Hyppie, at all. This is possibly a personal preference.


Why play this instead of the Truffle Shuffle?



Even the author admits that this deck has a hard time with Truffle Shuffle.

Because Truffle Shuffle is a pure control deck and this deck is an aggro/control deck. That means that this deck boasts a much stronger combo matchup. Much, much stronger. The clock in this deck is blazingly faster than Truffle Shuffles. Truffle Shuffle may have more room for removal (and Top for draw), but it runs much less aggro and a far slower clock. Truffle Shuffle has card advantage via recurring creatures and a long term card quality engine via Top... that's why it's unfavorable vs this deck (similar strategies otherwise). Against the rest of the field, I'd much rather be playing this deck. Even against aggro, since this deck has a faster win condition.


Maybe you don't all like this idea, but I think Knight of Stromgald might be better than Nantuko Shade. I know Shade is a beast, but being pro-white is excellent against a topdecked STP or vindicate, not to mention the pump factor that the knight still has. If there is a general worry about the small number of creatures in the deck than the knight might be a better strategy because of protection.

Knight of Stromgald is awful in this deck. It's great in Mono Black Aggro (Sui), but it's not what this deck wants. A 2/2 for 2 is just too small, regardless of it's other possible benefits. This deck is not worried about StP, even though several others have questioned this too. This deck wants very large finishers. It controls the game, drops a fatty, wins before the opponent recovers. Stromgald can pump, but in no way like Shade. However, this deck can be metagamed, as mentioned before. If your metagame is white/StP infested, I'm sure Knight would be a fine replacement for Shade. In a metagame of randomness, I'd much rather run Shade in this deck.

[Zilla]

Does this deck have better matchups against the field than Truffle Shuffle does? If so, how?
In the early game, Truffle Shuffle and this deck both aim to control the board and disrupt the opponent. The two decks are similar in this regard. The difference starts at turn 3 or 4, where this deck, having (hopefully) disrupted its opponent, typically switches to aggro and attempts to win the game shortly thereafter. Truffle Shuffle, on the other hand, will spend the next several turns further disrupting the opponent and slowly building card and board advantage. In the very late game, it will capitalize on its stronger poition with larger, slower, recurring beaters to try to seal the deal.

Because Truffle Shuffle relies on fewer, slower, larger threats to ultimately win the game, it is going to be much stronger against aggro and aggro-control decks. It is going to be much, much worse against combo decks for the same reason.

[Hanni]

I also just want to say that the LD that this deck utilizes is more devastating against Truffle Shuffle than the LD they use against me, mainly because they are a true board control deck. The matchup isn't unwinnable, I just consider Truffle Shuffle to be more favored because it wins the attrition war. I've never actually playtested this version of Deadguy vs Truffle Shuffle so I have absolutely no matchup analysis/statics to actually present.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The difference against combo seems negligble. Nantuko Shade and Tarmogoyf can't race Belcher. If anything, Glittering Wish for Dueling Grounds just gives you additional outs.

This isn't aggro-control. This is board control with anti-synergistic win conditions. In fact, brief testing indicated that it would be far easier to run the clock against this deck than Truffle Shuffle, since dealing with one kill condition leaves you fumbling for turns trying to find another, and Confidant barely counts in that regard.

[Hanni]

The difference against combo seems negligble. Nantuko Shade and Tarmogoyf can't race Belcher.

If Duress, Hymn to Tourach, Unmask, Extirpate, and even Pernicious Deed/Engineered Plague don't slow Belcher down early on, then you're probably going to lose. Slowing the opponent down by removing a win condition or two and then dropping a 4/5 Tarmogoyf gives your opponent 5 turns to reassemble a hand that can go off or they lose (plus this deck can play additional disruption). The clock is very relevant... even Belcher can go off again after disruption has been played.

Belcher is the furthest extreme to where you need the answers turn 1 or else you lose. What about other combo? The clock of this deck is much more relevant against those.


If anything, Glittering Wish for Dueling Grounds just gives you additional outs.


GW and 1GW is 5 mana. Last time I checked, you don't have time to pay 5 mana to stop EtW. I realize you can pay 2 on turn 2 turn and 3 on turn 3, but still. Why would I want to do that when I have 4 Plague and 3-4 Deed already? Seems pointless, especially when Deed has the benefit of wiping away any left over LED's and such, while Plague keeps the table clear. Not only that, but Dueling Grounds keeps them chump blocking your attacker into oblivion. Maybe I'm missing something.


This isn't aggro-control.

Sure it is. It's Deadguy. I'm running 11 creatures. Did you see my list?


This is board control with anti-synergistic win conditions.

I don't get why people keep thinking this. The deck runs 3 Deed MD 1 Deed SB. This is the only spell in the deck that removes my own guys. Think of it as a better Smallpox if you really think this makes the deck anti synergistic. You don't commit guys until you are done unloading your hand with control... you don't play guys if you plan to Deed first. If you do overcommit a few threats, Deed is generally dead (except it can popped at 1), but if you are overcommitting with this deck, you're probably winning anyway and aren't worried about Deed being dead in hand. If you drop only 1 threat, Deeding said threat away to clear the table and drop another threat is also a strong play. The whole point here is that this deck utilizes 7 fatties. This deck easily recovers from its own Deed. Wiping the board and then dropping a fatty seems like an extremely strong plan to me. The reason why Deed works here is because this deck only needs 1 threat in play at any given time to win the game... beyond that, it commits no other permanents to the board.

The deck doesn't need recurrable, slow beats. The whole plan, as the plan for Deadguy has always been (and yes, Deadguy is aggro/control) is to offset the opponent and then take advantage of them being off balance by beating them in the face with aggro. Cards like Sinkhole buy time (otherwise referred to as Tempo), and the deck utilizes those elements. This deck isn't really much different from B/w Deadguy... my B/w Deadguy list drops Tarmo for Grunt and Deed for Smallpox (and 1 StP for another land).

Again, I must question how much you've playtested with this deck if the 3 Deed MD are really that anti synergistic and awful.


since dealing with one kill condition leaves you fumbling for turns trying to find another

That's why you don't blindly drop guys. You hit with Hymn, you hit with Sinkhole, etc etc. You don't just drop a guy and hope it sticks. Another thing too is that Confidant tends to bait out removal spells himself, so in that regard, I would count it. If it doesn't bait out removal, the card advantage gained puts this deck over the top. The deck has 7 big beaters. 7. How is this any worse than traditional B/w Deadguy, which runs 3 Shade and 3 Grunt? I've yet to have problems with opposing StP's in my testing so far, and I have had games where 2-3 of my fatties get removaled. Another great thing is how little of an effect burn has at removing my guys (aside from Confidant).

---

Maybe you tested the deck and didn't get good results, IBA. I don't know. Whatever the case is, my testing results with this deck continue to be phenomenal. Maybe you were playing the deck wrong? I don't see how that would be the case though, since the deck isn't really that hard to pilot. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

The idea for aggro/board control is just genius IMO. It improves Deadguys bad aggro matchups while retaining it's strong matchups everywhere else. I don't see how playing 11 aggro beats (7 of them being able to win the game on their lonesome) with 3 Deed is anything less than spectacular when you play the deck right. Maybe I'm a bad deck builder. =/

[Finn]

Deed is only un-synergistic with creature offense if the creatures you have are not dominating the creatures the opponent has. That is, who is deed hurting more?

The trick is to assure that your creatures either
a) have a higher cmc or
b) are superior to your opponent's and will win the attrition war, thus saving the deed as a backup

I do not think that either is true often enough of the creatures in this deck. It isn't a terrible circumstance (like Standstill can be at times), but you could easily switch to Mutilate as I have done, and not worry about it.

[Maveric78f]

I don't like the land destruction part of this deck. I think that the game shold remain : heavy discard + board sweeping. And then put down big threats such as tarmogoyf and grunt.

[dre4m]

I don't like the land destruction part of this deck. I think that the game shold remain : heavy discard + board sweeping. And then put down big threats such as tarmogoyf and grunt.

By the time you're done discarding and board sweeping, assuming that you survive, you can probably produce much better threats than Grunt and Tarmogoyf. Those creatures are good because their aggressive costs make them high-pressure threats early in the game, not because of how well they follow up a board control plan. LD certainly synergises better with those creature than board control.

[Maveric78f]

produce much better threats than Grunt and Tarmogoyf

Like ?

[gmorakis]

Hanni, I really love this deck and wanted to know your opinion on a few minor changes I have made to the manabase and maindeck.

Here's how my manabase looks:
4 Scrubland
4 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Swamp
4 Wasteland

I think 8 saclands is a bit too much pain in combination with the Confidants, so I cut 1 along with a Swamp and added 1 of each of the duals. I think the right number is probably 6-7 saclands, but I realize the importance of their versatility in the manabase, so I opted for 7.

The only change I made to the maindeck was to add the 4th Pernicious Deed. It just seems really good against everything and just amazing in this deck in general. I decided to move the 4th Duress to the sideboard, since it is a pretty crappy topdeck and not as amazing against everything as the Deed is.

[Holo_rip]

First, i'm sorry for bumping up this thread, but well, i wanted to share some thing with you guys.

With hypnotic specter gone, why should we stick to have dark ritual ?
At the moment, i'm running 4 unearth in my side-board, and i wonder why i wouldn't fill them in the main board, especially at the dark ritual slot !
Really, when do we need dark ritual ? To cast an early E.Plague ? Come on, E.Plague is here to answer ETW token and help our goblin matchup. And here, EE and pernicious deed just seal the deal.

About unearth, for me it is just a bomb against deck with permission. Moreover, many time we blow up our own creature with deed, and it is just 4 more goyf/shade or any creature in our deck.

Here his the version without unearth main :


3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Swamp
4 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
1 Plains
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
1 Forest

3 Nantuko Shade
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf

4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
SB
1 Pernicious Deed
4 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Unearth

and here is the version with unearth main :

3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Swamp
4 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
1 Plains
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
1 Forest

3 Nantuko Shade
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf

4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Duress
4 Unearth
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
SB
1 Pernicious Deed
4 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Krosan Grip

Just my two cents...
Any thoughs ?

Holo.

[Solpugid]

3 Tarmogoyf

Eeeeeewwwww.

No but seriously, tarmogoyf should not be run as a three-of when it is your primary win condition. You want to see as many as you can, as soon as you can.

Unearth seems alright here, but if you wanted to cut ritual I would think extirpate (coming MD from board) would be a better idea. That said, I've never really played with unearth in this kind of deck so I probably shouldn't be talking. Divining top would also be interesting, though.

[Maveric78f]

Mmmmh, I like what you are saying because it's going straight in the direction I've taken with my discard/board sweeping strategy.

I'm not a fan of unearth because it's not combo with the already problematic association grunt + goyf. The cycling possibility is cool though.

Here is my list, it's a quite strong 2CC curve.

// Lands
3 [4E] Swamp (1)
3 [B] Scrubland
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [MR] Vault of Whispers
1 [R] Savannah
3 [R] Bayou
1 [U] Plains (2)
1 [IA] Forest (2)

// Creatures
3 [U] Hypnotic Specter
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt

// Spells
2 [AP] Gerrard's Verdict
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
1 [AP] Phyrexian Arena
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [7E] Duress
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle

IT's been a long time I argued that Pikula was better without dark ritual and that it was asking for an enlightened tutor. The inclusion of green is now needed in every aggro-controle for tarmogoyf. Discard+tarmogoyf is really insane, moreover I play every type in my deck, without artificially including some seal of fire or briar shield.

The game plan of the deck is control the player before playing heavy threats (4*tarmo + 3*grunt). I make my opponent discard as much as I can which urges him to play as fast as he can his hand, and then I play a deed. My early plan includes the play of dark confidant and specters.

Against combo, you have all you need to get rid of tokens :
- 5 EE (6 post board)
- 5 Deed (6 post board)
- 7 engineered plague postboard
= 7 cards MD and 13 postboard

You can also needle their belcher and make them discard if they don't combo before the turn2.

Against Threshold, you have a lot of weapons : grunt is your favorite, it owns even creature in their deck. Your discard should also give you advantage. Postboard Leyline is also very strong. Their only real threat against you is mystic enforcer, that cannot be killed by vindicate, EE and with difficulties with deed. Postboard, you will have STP to help you.

Against Gob, it's more difficult than usual deadguy ale builds because I don't play STP MD, but grunt and tarmo are good stuff to give you some tempo before deeding the board. It 's a slightly negative MU though.

[Holo_rip]

Unearth may be anything else.
It just seem to me one of the best card i could include.
Having a toolbox with enlightened tutors can be something really cool too !
All what i am saying is that i think dark ritual isn't needed anymore.
So, what should be in dark ritual's place ?
Personnally, i can see this :
-unearth,
-enlightened tutors and his toolbox (1 ghostly prison, 1 rules of law...),
-sensei's divining top,
-more discard (extirpate...),
-more LD (rain of tears...).

Anything else ?

Holo.

[n00bas4urus_r3x]

Reanimate is almost always better than unearth. You only take 2 for getting back your own guys, and you always have the possability of grabbing something huge from an opponent's yard.

[Isaac]

Thanks hanni for posting this. I was at gencon getting the rest of the cards I didn't have for this deck and ended up getting them all. Sadly I was sick during most of gencon and didn't end up playing in the champs. I did do some play testing twords the end of day 2 though with cret and landstill. I added grunt to my build and he add's to the deck alot. I don't think he takes away from tarm at all and add's another fat creature to your list.

[thefreakaccident]

// Lands
3 [4E] Swamp (1)
3 [b] Scrubland
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [MR] Vault of Whispers
1 [R] Savannah
3 [R] Bayou
1 [u] Plains (2)
1 [IA] Forest (2)

// Creatures
3 [u] Hypnotic Specter
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt

// Spells
2 [AP] Gerrard's Verdict
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
1 [AP] Phyrexian Arena
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [7E] Duress
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle

It's funny, I made a list only 6-7 cards off from yours... it did very well, but my teammate uses both the team's bayous and black fetches and heaths in his deck... the deck is dismantled, but it was pretty strong.

I scrapped it a while back for lack of goblin MU (I even ran swords).

you might consider dropping hyppie, he's good but not thaaat good if you know what I mean... I ran shade (pop the board with deed drop shade game over) in that slot.

good luck with the deck you guys!

[jebus]

Niiiiiice deck. I haven't been around for a while, but I've always wanted to add Deed to Deadguy Ale, but the green splash has never been worth it. Then they printed Tarmogoyf. Wow.

Anyway, my one issue with the deck is Dark Ritual. Is it really needed, especially without Hyppie or Negator to power out on turn one? The deck may be better off with no accel, adding either the E.Tutor package mentioned above (although I don't like toolbox plans in a format as wide open as Legacy) or perhaps just upping to 23-24 lands and adding more threats, which may be the only thing this deck doesn't have in abundance. Perhaps Spectral Lynx?

But if accel is really needed, the legal alternatives are Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, and Mox Diamond. I never liked Chrome Mox, and I don't trust Mox Diamond without Crucibles/Lftl's. But Petal is an interesting option.

The case for Petal (at least, on paper - I haven't had the time to really test this) is that while it nets one mana less than Ritual, it can provide G or W in a pinch and also gives Tarmogoyf artifacts to munch on. Also, with most of the spells in the deck at two mana (and the spells that are 3cc are gold and can't be ritualed out anyway), it provides acceleration that is smoother and makes more sense. I think the only situations that Ritual would be strictly better would be in a Swamp+Ritual+Duress+Hymn/Sink/Shade/Bob opening, or in pumping Shade and Deed - situations where Ritual simply abuses its raw power. Otherwise, Petal seems a better option... on paper. But time (and testing) will tell.

[Isaac]

Anyway, my one issue with the deck is Dark Ritual. Is it really needed, especially without Hyppie or Negator to power out on turn one?

Insted of dark rit I put in grunts and some top's. Yes it's handy to have dark rit duress and hymm in opening hand but it's also useless in late game were as a top or a grunt might win you it. Here's my curent build.

Lands
3 Swamp
3 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
4 wasteland

Creatures
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nantuko Shade

Spells
4 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Duress
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to plowshares
4 sinkhole

Sideboard
1 Pernicious Deed
3 extirpate
3 unmask
4 engineered plague

I'm not sure about the 4 sb slots. Dys really dousnt work with grunt or tarm and you have deed in place for a grip.

[Othersider]

I'm currently trying this out. I'm not playing Grunts for the time being, since (as Hanni mentioned) they can be counter-productive for Tarmogoyf.


Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
3 Swamp
2 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou

Creatures
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
2 Nether Void
4 Duress
2 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Sinkhole
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares


I could see the Nether Void being debated for something else, but it feels right in a lot of games. First of all, it survives a Deed for 3 (which kills practically the entire board in the majority of games), and a well-timed one can seal the deal against most comebacks.

I haven't settled on a board yet, but I really want Unearth in there somewhere. I'm still trying to find a spot for it in the main deck. I'm open to suggestions.

[jebus]

It seems more and more people are cutting acceleration altogether, and my testing of both Ritual and Petal, and I'm leaning towards the same conclusion. Ritual is clunky and cumbersome, while Petal, though it admittedly is good at what it is supposed to do, suffers precisely because what it is supposed to do doesn't really make a huge impact on the game. I'm still considering it, though, as the deck does play out smoothly with it.

What I'm currently testing is basically a black-heavy Funkbrew, with Sinkholes and Shades instead of Boas and Lynxes, and as of now I'm not sure if I should just go with Funkbrew altogether. One thing intriguing with that deck is having a Glittering Wish-board, allowing access to stuff like the 4th Deed, Crime/Punishment, Mystic Enforcer, Loxodon Hierarch, Castigate, Death Grasp, and so on - all without diluting the main deck as much as the E.Tutor build above does. Granted, this deck's sideboard is already pretty tight, but it still remains pretty tempting.

[Zilla]

Reanimate is almost always better than unearth. You only take 2 for getting back your own guys, and you always have the possability of grabbing something huge from an opponent's yard.
Reanimate deals you damage, and doesn't cycle when it's a dead card. It's not almost always better. It's only better when your opponent has a creature in their yard that's better than what you have in your own, which, given the nature of the format, probably isn't going to happen all that often.

[Isaac]

I'm currently trying this out. I'm not playing Grunts for the time being, since (as Hanni mentioned) they can be counter-productive for Tarmogoyf.

Even though they can be counter productive from the results I've been getting they work out well.

[Othersider]

Even though they can be counter productive from the results I've been getting they work out well.
Interesting. Maybe I'll have to try them. Thanks for the tidbit.

[JimmyC27]

Did anybody play this deck at Gen Con?

[JimmyC27]

Anybody playing this deck, period? haha

[Isaac]

I'm not sure about gencon. I was there but I didn't watch anybodys matchups and yes I still break out this deck from time to time.

[Othersider]

I was going to go to a Legacy tournament this weekend, and I most likely would have played it. If I go to one anytime soon, there's a really good chance I'll play it.

Relevant question regarding Lorwyn: Does Thoughtseize belong in this deck? If so, does it replace Duress, or something else?

[Maveric78f]

I think that the impact of Lorwyn is bigger than that and that this deck will have no reason to be against more creature oriented builds in these colours, such as :

18 lands :
4*bayou
2*forest
1*swamp
1*scrubland
2*savannah
1*Karakas
3*windswept
2*bloodstained
2*polluted

8 Additionnal potential mana :
4 bird of paradise
4 treefolk harbinger

8 Utility creatures :
4 dark confident
4 gaddock teeg

8 Fat guies :
4 tarmogoyf
4 doran, the siege tower

8 Removal :
4 Putrefy
4 vindicate

8 Discard :
4 thoughtseize
4 cabal therapy

2 Random slots :
1 Sensei's divining top
1 Timber protector

SB :
4 Duress
3 STP
4 Krosan Grip
4 extirpate

[jebus]

Hmm maybe Thoughtseize in place of Dark Ritual? The deck doesn't really work well with Ritual anyway. I've been testing all sorts of things in its place (Lotus Petal, Extirpate, Spectral Lynx), but Thoughtseize might just be the best option available.

[JimmyC27]

I was trying to figure out how to include Thoughtseize into this build, I'm looking for suggestions and thoughts. :)


Land(22)

8 Fetches
4 Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
4 Wasteland

Critters(11)

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nantuko Shade

Stuffs(27)

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Extirpate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
4 Sinkhole
3 Pernicious Deed

My initial thoughts are removing the 2 Hymns and adding 2 more Extirpate--it will give that added effect that disrupts the graveyard. I think plenty of things will be in the graveyard to Extirpate, between the 8 Duresses and 12 Land Destruction cards.

Also, I think removing Shade for Doran, the Siege Tower might be beneficial. The creatures in this deck do not really come out until you've used multiple disruption spells, so the 3cc should not be a problem. The fact he is a legend should not be a problem, since I never play more than one threat at a time.

[Kronicler]

Also, I think removing Shade for Doran, the Siege Tower might be beneficial.

And it also gives Goyf 1 more power! Heh, just had to say that.

Kronicler

[jebus]

JimmyC27:
I'm not so sure going down to 2 Hymn is the right call. I would cut / reduce Duress first before Hymn.

My current test build is same as the one you posted, except I have 23 land and 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Hymn, 3 Duress, 0 Extirpate.

[JimmyC27]

JimmyC27:
I'm not so sure going down to 2 Hymn is the right call. I would cut / reduce Duress first before Hymn.

My current test build is same as the one you posted, except I have 23 land and 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Hymn, 3 Duress, 0 Extirpate.

What is your 60th card then?

[jebus]

Huh?

Your list
-2 Extirpate
-1 Duress
= 57 cards

+2 Hymn
+1 Land
= 60 cards

[Jolfer]

I've been having incredible results with the following list. The only really bad matchups i've really into so far are goyf sligh and other fast R and/or G varients.

Creatures [11]
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nantuko Shade

Spells [25]
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
2 Top
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Extirpate

Land [24]
4 Wasteland
4 Delta
4 Mire
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
4 Swamp

Sideboard [15]
4 COP: Red
3 Chains
3 Swords
2 Edict
2 Hymn
1 Extirpate

[Kyachi]

It's only better when your opponent has a creature in their yard that's better than what you have in your own, which, given the nature of the format, probably isn't going to happen all that often.

Does that include Threshold? Hymn is kind of good at getting things to the graveyard when they hold creatures until they feel comfortable. Further, if they play into it, Deed has a bad habit of killing their guys, which puts them... in the graveyard. Legacy is so much about who sticks more tarmogoyfs right now, it could never hurt to either reanimate your own, or one of your opponent's though. It does seem like a far more aggressive card than the rest of the deck though, that seems like a better argument to me, anti-synergy...

[Illissius]

Jolfer: I'd try fitting some Dorans in there, probably over the Extirpates and/or a Deed and/or a Top.

[Jolfer]

I definitely wouldn't run dorans in general. The 3cc is a little high and the 3 color cost is hard to come by, if the deck needed more threats I would probably run mishra's factory seeing how they're uncounterable, come in under a standstill, survive deed, can early game block to get time for deed vs. aggro and produce mana if necessary. But I don't really think that I need more threats in here, it has been working so well thus far.

As for replacing extirpate MD, I will not do this. Most people have challenged it but it's so good. It does a lot more than hurt combo, it can really color/mana screw someone especially when sinkhole/wateland/vindicate can follow and with typically seeing their hand with 8 first turn discard cards it often acts as discard itself. Also taking out random cards that you simply do not want to see anymore in the match can often be great, for example getting rid of threshold's goyf or 'goose or a win condition in a prison deck, or swords to plowshares in a low removal with a goyf/shade in play or factory/wasteland vs. landstill or when a crucible is in play.

Top could go, it is the most recent addition to the deck (used to be swords), but it has been very solid so far finding threats late game, land early game and burying unnecessary discard. Plus it does have synergy with confidant and doesn't die to deed (put it on library in resp.

Edit: I'm trying to find something to SB so that I can make Goyf sligh not an auto-loss while still hurting goblins (would replace plague), because goblins aren't around as much and the matchup isn't nearly as bad. Something like COP: Red comes to mind but it doesn't have very good synergy with deed...

[Nihil Credo]

Edit: I'm trying to find something to SB so that I can make Goyf sligh not an auto-loss while still hurting goblins (would replace plague), because goblins aren't around as much and the matchup isn't nearly as bad. Something like COP: Red comes to mind but it doesn't have very good synergy with deed...
Maybe Worship? Tarmogoyf is pretty hard for Red decks to kill if you don't block. Goblins may still get it with Incinerator or Incinerator + SGC/Fanatic, though.

On a different note, are those Chains of Mephistopheles in your board? If so, I suppose they're for Threshold and Landstill (Solidarity and Enchantress too, if anyone played them). How have they been?

[Jolfer]

With only 11 creatures (7 of which with a possible 1 toughness) I don't think worship would be much help, I think that I'm going to try out COP: Red though (-4x Plague, +3x COP, +1x Swords).


Yes they are Chains of Mephistopheles, and they're great. I've been running into a lot of landstill and they're especially amazing in that matchup. I don't know what else to say about them, to be honest.

[Jolfer]

Ok, so COP is amazing. I just played 5 games vs goyf sligh (1 pre-board and 5 post-board) and won all 5 (the first game was of course total luck on mana screwing him). I definately doubt it's a positive match but it makes it totally beatable. This deck has so few bad matchups it's crazy.

I'll edit my post above with my updated decklist.

[GvS]

Here is my report: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=177020#post177020

I'm not satisfied with main extirpates. They sometimes win but usually I need something better. Anyone tested Gaddock Teeg already?

[jebus]

GvS:
-3 Extirpate
-1 Duress
+4 Thoughtseize
would be a good start.

cutting land/Duress/StP would also make room for some SDT's, which are also great.

Teeg would be a great sideboard card, as at least a 3-of. I don't think he'll make the cut for the maindeck, though.

[Seregrauko]

Hey Rockers!

I've been playing a deck similar to these. A very aggro-control oriented build. Goyfs, Dorans, Confidants and Grunts for the kill. 4 Maindeck Jitte to win game one against aggro and maybe aggro-control. My philosophy on Jitte is:
If I allready have 1 in play, I'll probably win the game. So 4 MD is no concern. Worked out so far. And regarding Goyf/Grunt interaction; No problems so far. Grunt's a killer vs. thresh, loam and misc. GY decks.

My problem is: Truffle-Shuffle, Landstill and Loam (Lands.dec and other Loam decks).
How do we beat them?? I have an idea that I might be able to beat Landstill, but only if I get som early discard online.
Gaddock Teeg doesn't impress me all that much. We allready have a decent game against combo I think. And vs. Shuffle and Landstill they have Deed to take him out.
I actually thought about running Tsabo's Web, to devastate Lands.dec and be an annoyance for Landstill.. But they don't deal with Shuffle. And that's one of my main concerns.

Any suggestions??

[Illissius]

Winter Orb or Choke?

[nitewolf9]

Haunting echoes in the board will do way more than either of those options. Play like 3 of them or so, it is the bombiest card over those 3 matchups.

[Jolfer]

Extirpate really hurts those decks, not truffle shuffle as much (but it still does and that matchup really shouldn't be too bad anyway; at least i haven't had a much of an issue with it [but i've only played it a handful of times]). I'm a real advocate of it MD because it hurts a lot more than just though decks; it's very situational acting as discard, color/mana screw, graveyard removal and/or simply getting rid of a card you don't want to see again (notably goyf, top/counterbalance, kill conditions and swords). I would really recommend running 8 thoughtseize/duress and hymns with MD extirpate though, knowing what they're holding is huge with card because it really allow you to know what to hit (ie color/mana screw, or act as discard). Plus the deck is in a major need for 1st turn plays without them.

[lolosoon]

I would really recommend running 8 thoughtseize/duress and hymns with MD extirpate though
Well, first you have to make rooms for this heavy discard plan. Obv choice would be to drop the Sinkholes and Rituals.
Then, so much discard make mid-late game topdeck worse, so adding SDT could help.

If you take GvS liste from his report :

// Lands
4 Bayou
2 Windswept Heath
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Swamp

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade

// Spells
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sinkhole
3 Extirpate
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Duress


The changes could be :
-4 Sinkhole
-1 StP
-1 Swamp//Duress
+4 Thoughtseze
+2 Sensei's Top


@Rockguy players: have you ever wished running Tombstalker as additionnal threat which is immune to Counterbalance//SpellSnare//Smother when facing Threshold recently ?! The 8 LifeLoss when flipped on Confidant can be managed with your own SDT and opposing Goyfs fear the Stalker...
Thoughts ?!

[Jolfer]

Ah, I had a typo, instead of "and hymns " I meant to say "and no hymns". 12 discard spells is simply overkill, I find myself with dead discard when only running 8 and sinkhole would definitely not be the card to drop if you were, for some reason, to run 12 discard spells.

[lolosoon]

Ah, I had a typo, instead of "and hymns " I meant to say "and no hymns". 12 discard spells is simply overkill
Typo makes posts irrevelant =/

Though I agree 12 may be overkill, you could still easily up your discard spell count to 10 in an aggro-control or combo heavy meta. Struggle vs Thresh's counterwall of 11-14 spells (FoW, Daze, Spellsnare, Counterbalance (+stifle)) is easier if you can chain 2 early discard spells. The same for combo.


I still have issues with my SB strategy (Hanni's tips page one are helpful but a bit outdated with Flash breakdown and Ichorid rise).
In a unknown Meta (but probably Goyf infested), which SB cards would you pack between :
- Leylines (Ichorid Combo. Pshychatog. Threshold ?! Loam/Crucible effect ?!)
- Extirpate (Same as above + other combo ?!)
- Dystopia (Threshold. AngelStompy. Fish ?!)
- Pithing Needles (Belcher. Other ?!)
- E.Plagues (Goblins. Empty the Warrens.dec. Tribal Junk)
- Pernicious Deed #4 (3 MD) ($t@x. Solitaire. Affinity.)
- Duress #4 (3 MD) (Combo ?!)
- Smother (I already run 4 MD StP) (Fish ?! Random Aggro ?!)
- Loxodon Hierarch (Burn ?!)

Damn, I suck @ sideboarding so much... =(

[Jolfer]

Well you can look at my whole list on the page before this but I would really recommend SBing swords to plowshares/diabolic edict (since I don't run them maindeck) over dystopia because that kills your own goyfs if it was to take out multiples, takes longer to work, costs more mana and only hits green and white creatures. Also, I would advise running COP: Red in place of plague because goyf sligh is basically unbeatable without it and it hurts goblins just as much if not more (on this note I recommend leaving extirpate in MD because if you can extirpate their answer to enchantments or all of their splash producers then COP will simply win you the game).

[lolosoon]

Well, this is my first attempt making a report. (Should post a FNM report in the Report topic worth it ? )

And it will be a short one due to the low attendance of yesterday's Legacy FNM (19 players - 5 rounds).

I think we should start with the decklist and some explanations ?!

Bwg Rockguy Ale

//Mana : 23
6 Swamp
4 Scrubland
3 Bayou
1 Tainted Wood
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

//Threats : 13
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Tombstalker

//Spells : 24
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Extirpate
4 Vindicate
4 Sword to Plowshare
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top

//Sideboard :
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
3 Duress
3 CoP:Red
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Enlightened Tutor

Choices :
1 Tainted Wood : Acts as Bayou #4 for budget choice. Non-fetchable like Overgrown Tomb but less life loss.

1 Polluted Delta : Budget choice again, I don't own more. -2 Swamps +2 Delta would be great.

0 Dark Ritual : Bad topdeck. And I'd rather play a quite control deck which is consistant than random broken starts.

3 Nantuko Shade : Shades > Hippies without rituals, and can end the game quicker after Deed.

2 Tombstalker : Big flying finisher that cannot be chumpblocked ad nauseam when you want to end the game quickly. That and I wanted to run more and bigger threats than some builds of Threshold or Fish. The life loss when revealed with Confidant is minimized with the 2 MD Sensei's Tops.

3 Extirpate : They were sideboarded for MD Duresses a few weeks ago, but the possibility to crush combo early game one is huge. That and the fact I can see through my opponent's entire decklist before sideboarding is sufficient to make them MD worthy.

1 SB Enlightened Tutor : Acts as Deed#5, Needle and CoP:Red #4 and Top finder. Not that great, but worth a 15th SB slot imho.


Ok, now the report. The shop that ran the FNM has some competitive players, but with a good % of T2, Extended or Casual ones too. So there is not a defined metagame yet. Still, last time (Pre-Planar Chaos) Thresh and Tog were well represented.


Round One : Maximilien : Circu.dec
Quite pleasant opponent. He made the trip to Lille coming with a friend to play some magic this Week-End but his deck wasn't prepare for Legacy.
G1 : He plays U Sea, pass. I go Swamp Top. Then a Dimir BounceLand comes into play which I waste the turn after. He replays the U.Sea, I topdeck Wasteland. He plays some Rav dual (Ovegrown Tomb I think) I play Bob, then next turn Bob+Top draw me a 3rd wasteland which I use with some remorse on a Bayou freshly played I think. Then I extripate the U.Sea to see through his deck : He plays a BUG deck with Circu, Alluren and Cavern Harpy combo with some Zombie Plant and Glimpse here and there with Damnations. No big deal. A tarmo crush him next turn.

G2 : He DR a circu Turn 2, play Harpy next run and RFG may next 2 draws : Tarmogoyf and Vindicate *ouch*. I dig with my top finding a StP for Circu, play Goyf #2, play shade, stomp him. StP clear the way at some time...


Round Two : Xavier L. : MBA with The Rack which made top2
G1 : I keep a hand with 1 Fetch 1 Wasteland and Top+Bob among other cards like StP... Dunno what he played at this time but it was clearly a mistake. He goes Swamp, DR, Thoughseize on Bob, Hymn taking out Wasteland and some card. Pfeeww at least I still have coloured mana. I go Fetch=> Basic Swamp (afraid of Wasteland)=> Top. He drops some pump knights therafter when I stuck with 2 lands including a scrubland. Never draw the Bayou which would permit me to play my hand of Deed + Goyfs and I lost miserably. Still, I knew what he played (Extirpate some Jitte at a moment) while he thinks I only play a standard Pikula build.

G2 : He doesn't play early discard spell but goes into beat down mode with PumpKnights x2, The Rack and Hyppy. He over extend into Deed which he clearly didn't see coming. Then, double Goyf made him sadly ask for Game three.

G3 was great. I mean, I never played a game this tense. Turn one he DR into Thoughtseize and Extirpate on my Goyfs. After a while I made some Deed cleanings and we both go into topdeck mode. He drops The Rack while I play Sensei's Top and a few turn after (oops) I deed it again. But his deck ran more threats than mine and I draw into a Shade whith my hand clogged with helpless StP while he drops a Stromgald Crusader then play Jitte and equip, tapping him out.
We go to extra time (5 extra rounds) with him at 6 and me at 7. Once the Jitte active, I think I couldn't win that game, so I attack with the shade, forcing him to chumpblock. But he didn't use the Jitte counters to gain some life as I though. He pumped the Knight after damage were in the stack, saving him from death. Damn, what a bad player I am, I didn't see that coming. During his turn, he attacks dropping me to 3 with pump. Then he tries to kill the shade with Jitte. I StP it to gain some life instead 'cause I only had 1 mana out and couldn't save it.
I use Top during my Upkeep, dig 3 cards for some crap (Hymns and lands), draw a swamp, play it and used the Top one last time... the 3rd card was a Deed !! I draw it with the mighty Top, cleared the board and took happily the draw. Wow...


Round 3 : Quentin W. : Boros.dec
G1 : He plays some threats and burn. I hymn him some threat and burn, then a shade was StP. I play Extirpate on the Sword to Plowshare, making my Goyfs threats he couldn't deal with easily. His life total went to 27 while I chain-Sword his Serra Avengers and Knights clearing the way for 2 Goyfs and a Shade.
While we played, I saw that the 2 players sitting at table #4 were playing a burn mirror. I was happy to side in my 3 CoP:Red and the lone Tutor in. But...

G2 : He goes T1 Savannah Lion, I Duress away a Lightning bolt among Boltx2 + Incinerate. A white Knight join the party and they took me to 10 before I deed the board. But he topdecks his burn while I can't find my CoP:Red making me a sad "control" player.

G3 : Early discard, double deeds made both of us in topdeck mode. But Sensei's Top > raw Topdeck and I quickly recover with Shade and Goyf whil Vindicating his few blockers.


Round 4 : Xavier A. : WW with Armageddon
G1 : A Turn3 hymn made him discard a Geddon while he was at 3 lands and put some pressure with some li'l white critters. I happily extirpate them out of his deck with my last mana. Then my deck goes in a Rock mode, giving me all the Deeds, StP and Vindicates I wanted before dropping my threats.

G2 : No extirpate his time, but his Geddons were still useless 'cause I kept a deed on the table while drawing into lands, Goyfs and Shades with Bob+Top. He sneaks in some damages with his beasts dropping me to 5. I stabilize with deed and drop my beasts. He goes from 18 to 0 in 4 turns with some chumpblocks from his part.


Last Round : Michel : Uwb Fish
G1 : He lets me thoughtseize Turn one, taking out his FoW among 2x Brainstorm, Shadowmage Infiltrator, Jitte and lands. I had 2 Goyfs in my starting hand, so if he doesn't draw into Spellsnare or Daze I could go in Goys Stompy mode and race him. He stucks at 2 mana for a while thanks to Wasteland I think, doesn't draw countermeasures and died to the Goyfs.

G2 : I Thoughseize a bob, he StP mine in the first two turn -The CA would be too important if we didn't deal with them that early. Then I play a Needle on Flooded Strand while he try to make his manabase Wasteland-proof fetching only basics and naming Vindicate with Meddling Mage. A second Mage on Deed join the first but my threats are overall bigger that Fish ones. While he builds an army of Avengers and Mages I drop Goyfs and Shades with Tombstalker backup.
We trade for a while, but I force him to block with mages at some time, then I Vindicate the Avenger and win.
He never drawn into Jotün Grunts both games, it should have been problematic if he did imho.


So, the MBA player and I finished with 13 points with a Foil FNM Roar of the Wurm and both had great time during this FNM session.


Sorry, I don't have this FNM breakdown. But here were the winning Decks :
1-2 : MBA & Rockguy Ale
3-4 : Uwb Fish & Ugr Threshold (no CounterTop shennanigan though)

Tomorrow there's a 32 player Legacy Event at another store. Dunno if I'd play this deck again but I'll keep you informed of the results if so.

Thanks for the reading !
Soon.

[Psyk]

Legacy is an FNM-legal format?

[lolosoon]

Legacy is an FNM-legal format?

Well, looking to my FNM Roar of the wurm, I'm tempted to say Yes. Otherwise I dunno...

Today, Legacy tournament with 23 players, I've finished 6th due to bad tiebreakers with quite the same list (-1 StP +1 Smother MD -1 E.Tutor +1 Smother SB). Less casual or extended decks though.

The top8 was :
UGr Thresh with 4xStifle 4x Wasteland and CounterTop MD
Uwb Fish with CounterTop MD
Uwb Fish without CounterTop
BUG deck with 4xTarmogoyf 4xTombstalker and Mental Note
CRET Belcher
Bwg Rockguy (me)
??? maybe Rg Goblins
???

I'll update with a brief report if s/one is interested...

[jebus]

brief report, please.

i haven't been able to play in a looooong time, but this is still a deck that i follow.

[Hopo]

Hello everybody. I've been working on this deck for a while and last weekend it proved itself, taking me 5th out of 52 players in Finnish Legacy Champs.

MAIN DECK:
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Infernal Tutor

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Epochrasite

2 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Polluted Delta

SIDEBOARD:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Echoing Decay
2 Exalted Angel
3 Seedtime

As you can see, there are some card choices that probably need explanations. I'll start with the tutors.
Infernal Tutor has made the deck really consistent. It improves the threath density in early game 'cause it allows to double any relevant threaths or control elements you have in your opening seven. No one sees it coming, and suddenly you have two goyfs/hymns/deeds/whatever you think will matter. In late game it is precious, as it equals to any card in the deck while in the top deck mode. I've been so incredibly satisfied that these two slots are here to stay.

Epochrasites are there to soften the impact from your own deeds. This deck wanted a way to recurr threaths and this is excatly the way to go. Epochrasite was probably the MVP in champs, as it usually in game 2 forced the opponent to spend Swords to Plowshares to keep it coming back. That gives more room for goyfs and confidants. I like it a lot. Also, even with Tarmogoyfs I thought the deck needed more creatures and because of Shades' and goyfs' tendency to die to deed on 2 like a common jitte, I chose Epochrasite over shades. It works big time. Tarmogoyfs cant be cut, apparently and Confidants are your draw engine so shades had to go. Due to deed, the creature count needs to be somewhat low. And when ~third of your guys come back as hasty 4/4's, we have a winner in Epochrasite.

Because the pile's fundamental turn is three, it just has to reach three lands in three turns, no matter what. As I expected Wastelands to be played a lot, I ended up building the manabase with a basic plain and a basic forest. They proved to be invaluable, as without counters opponents have usually no way to stop a deed being cast on turn three. Or Vindicate. Also check out the Windswept Heaths (should be a 3-of, I screwed with my decklist), which enable the usage of basic splash lands and same time fetch the business lands when needed.

I thought the Sensei's Divining Top also, but it clashes with deed or slows you down if you want to save it by tapping it.

This deck owned everything from Faerie Stompy to thresh, but I had difficulties with 4c landstill playing Pernicious Deed.

I'll explain the sideboard later, now I got to go.
Please, comment.

[n00bas4urus_r3x]

I'm not sure if this belongs here, but this thread is the closest to what I've been playing. It focuses more on board control than land destruction. Here's the list.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Troll Ascetic
2 Eternal Witness
1 Mystic Enforcer

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Darkblast
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Windswept Heath
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Nantuko Monestary

SB:
4 Engineered Plague
2 Worship
3 Krosan Grip
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Meta slots

Card choices:
Troll Ascetic: I've been in love with this guy since he's been printed, and he usually finds his way into any thing green I play. Untargetablility is always nice, and worship out of the board can stop a lot of random decks.

Mystic Enforcer: I like this guy a lot, and feel far more comfortable running him over Tombstalker without a top down. He can come online fast enough, especially with Darkblast.

Engineered Explosives: Subdeeds, these are amazing main deck, and are invaluable because of a lower mana requirement than deed, and select-ability.

Darkblast: Man, so underrated. Stops Goyf standoffs, and kills a ton of random shit: Dark Confidant, Meddling Mage, any goblins, just to name a few. Also a first turn answer to Lackey, which is still around in my meta. Allows for broken plays consisting of first turn Darkblast --> Dredge --> Goyf.

Umezawa's Jitte: Gives the deck some reach, and very deadly on a Troll.

Volrath's Stronghold: Late game guy getter.

Nantuko Monastery: Wins random games.

[Hopo]

As I now have more time, I can explain my above build some more.

First turns of your game are dedicated to disrupting your opponent with Duress and Hymn. An early Epochrasite is also something you want to play, but depending on board position you usually just want to hymn instead of play creatures. If something gets through, play and pop deed or use spot removal.

When you feel like it's safe, it's time to drop Tarmogoyfs for the win. Occasionally, they just end up dead/countered/RFG'd, but your discard should most of the time take care of this. With careful wastelanding and vindicating you can cut opposite decks out of colored removal mana or double blue. When facing black, try to slip Epochrasite to table before goyfs to render goyf immune to edicts. These two guys are your win conditions so take care of them. Confidants can be dropped basically whenever you wan't, unless there's something like Mogg Fanatic in play. If they answer it, play bigger men. If not, you are about to win.

I cut the Sinkholes because land-d wasn't actually that efficient anymore. Wasteland gives you the critical first turn LD and Vindicate continues from there if there are no other targets after turn three. Also, in my new build, I cut the Dark Rituals since they are awful topdecks. Sure, they can randomly give you turn 1 hymn + duress, but I prefer replacing them with Thoughtseizes. This gives the deck more one-drops and helps in quite a many matchups including goblins and fast combos.

SIDEBOARD:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Echoing Decay
2 Exalted Angel
3 Seedtime

I build the sideboard based on pre-champs tourneys. Krosan Grip is invaluable against counter/tops and scepters. Leyline is the general graveyard hoser against thresh, fast combos and all the numerous crucible-strategies. Echoing Decay serves for two purposes: 1st being an extra removal against any aggro and 2nd being an extra out against EtW-tokens in case your deed is too slow.
Angels were quite random. I didn't play them even once. Seedtime is there for all the blue decks Finns like to play and it did quite nicely. Time Walk is nice when you have any of your creatures out, netting you cards with confidant, making Epochrasite suspend faster and goyf hit one turn harder. Quite narrow still, and now I'm looking for something to improve landstill matchups.

Decks you should have no problems with:

Affinity: Deed just wrecks them, including their lands.

Thresh: Again, deed is amazing and land-d is poison to them. After boarding you get leylines which seal the deal. If they play counterbalance or scepter, you have Krosan Grips and they have nothing to deal with it.

Faerie Stompy: Deed for the win. Chalice for 1 or 2 isn't that bad, you still have Vindicate and deed to deal with them. Also, tarmogoyfs are bigger than their men and from board you get Grips to deal with equipment or critical chalices.

MonoB (pox/sui): They aren't fast enough to not to get crushed by deed. Early Epochrasites rule and if they do the crucible tricks, board in leylines. Never lost a game to this so far. Goyf is bigger than anything they got.

Slow combo (solidarity, aluren..): You have enough land-d and discard to slow them down so you can beat with tarmogoyf. Shouldn't be a problem.

More problematic matchups:

Goblins: You pretty much need the Swords to Plowshares in your hand. If you are on the play, Epochrasite works also. If you survive till deed comes online, good. Otherwise, bad. If they get vial, you're in serious trouble. Play and tutor for Epochrasites and eventually goyfs and try to play them as early as possible. If you get deed, it gets a lot easier. Also adding the Thoughtseizes should improve this a bit.

Landstill (4cc): This is crappy, since they crush you with the card advantage and most of the time their threaths are immune to deeds and StPs. Brainstorm grants virtual immunity to Duress. If they play deed themselves, it's even worse. Wastelands rule in this matchup but otherwise it's terrible.

Evenish matchups:

Fast combos: Try to win the coin flip and mulligan to early disruption. Get's easier after boarding as leylines come in. Also side in Echoing Decays if you see EtW.

[lolosoon]

brief report, please.
Well, I ended up 4-2 and 9th due to bad tieBreakers...

Round 1 : BUG "TurboStalker" (Cantrips+Mental Note+Goyf&Stalker) : 0-2
G1 he manaDeath me with Wastelands and Stifle and bring a quick Goyf in with backup)
G2 I Mull to 6 trying to find Leyline and kept a hand of Swamp, Wastex2, Confidant Hymn and Mire. I kept nonentheless fearing ManaDeath again.
I play Mire, fetch swamp, go. He goes fetch.
I draw Delta, fetch Swamp, run tourach into Mental Note (milling Goyf+Random card) into Daze (clearly a misplay, I should have wait 1 turn).
He then Thoughtseize my Bob, I draw lands, he drops lands with stifle backup for my waste 'til he play Tombstalker.
I get manaflooded, he maybe counters one revelant spell and win with the big Demon...

Round2-5 : I beat some decks (Bad Rock, Bad Pikula, Extended TES...) with early discard, LD, pinPoint removal and stabilize with Deed then drop 2cc 5/5, 5/6 or 7/6 finishers.

Extra (and last) Round : UGr Thresh : 1-2
G1 he makes a mistake keeping a Volc.Island in hand after a brainstorm when I cast Tourach on my turn 3with a Wasteland untapped. The land goes to the yard, I then Waste his Trop.Island.
Next turn I extirpate one of the Dual and Waste another fetched one later while I drop Shade. He scoops.
G2 I mulligan to 6 getting Leyline and 2 fetchlands. He stifles my 1st Fetch then drop counterBalance during his turn.
I don't have any Grip in my SB and he gets the Top engine soonafter.
I die due to 1/1 mongeese and 2/3 Goyf...
G3 I start with Leyline + Thoughtseize taking Goyf, then looked at my useless Extirpate I forgot to side out.
At one point he gets the CounterTop thingy and I lost being a bad player with bad SB decisons...


Still, the deck is very strong and MD Extirpates shine in a 3colour decks metagame and the 4 Wastelands packed in.

Just go hand/land/board control during the first turns then win on the back on one of your 9 huge 2cc winCons.

I love how discard and LD made some players overextend their hand into Deeds sometimes. As Hopo said : you don't have the slots nor the need for Dark Rituals in this deck if you play a controlish build.

Bob + Top are awesome draw engine and Shade/Goyf/Stalker can end the game quickier than most decks can recover from your Deeds or Disruption spells.

[proraptor]

I think quirion dryad is a good thread to play instead of nantuko or grunt.
instead of nantuko's ability you can now use your mana for keeping even more control just keep playing sinkhole's and hymn's, also it's not until end of turn so he's getting bigger every round.
You don't have to worry about your jotun making your goyf smaller.
And most of all it's still in the 2 mana area!
my list is without dark ritual you don't really need him now!
creature's
4 tarmogoyf
4 Dark confidant
4 quirion dryad

spells
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
3 pernicious deed
4 swords to plowshares
4 vindicate

3 umezawa's jitte

land
4 wasteland
4 swamp
4 polluted delta
4 bloodstained mire
3 scrubland
3 Bayou

sideboard(this is were I'm not so sure)
3 unmask
3 extirpate
4 engineered plague
5....?

those 5 slots need to be filled I like to have something against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh or something.
unmask en extirpate is of course against combo match ups and engineered for goblins.

[Hanni]

Pretty big necro, but I wanted to develop and discuss this specific deck, and The Rock thread can be all over the place sometimes.

I also want to say this upfront: this thread is not the place for flames and personal attacks. If you feel the need to do so, please keep that stuff in the other thread I made in Format Discussion (Junk vs Canadian).

Anyway, the decklist in the OP is pretty outdated, and could definitely use an overhaul.

Just to get things started, here's a rough list:

B/g/w Deadguy Rock

Lands (22)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland

Creaturues (12)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Terravore
1 Tombstalker

Spells (26)
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Vindicate

Again, this is a rough list. The deck might need another 1-2 lands, Sinkhole is questionable, and the lack of Sylvan Library is also questionable. The lack of Dark Confidant might be an eye-sore for some, but I'd rather drop an aggressive creature to try and kill my opponent as fast as possible, instead of drawing one extra card a turn. That doesn't mean I'm correct, and again, this is just a rough list (since the list in the OP is horribly outdated).

ALSO: Could a mod please rename this thread to B/g/w Deadguy Rock? Thanks alot in advance.

[Sughayyer]

@Hanny

I may once again be saying rubbish, BUT the reason the original Dark Horizons list ran Vindicate over sinkhole is that if you are attempting the tempo paly and draw it early, you wreck your opponent's manabase; if you draw that on the late game, it is not a wasted card. Sinkhole is not used anymore because drawing it after turn 3-4 is useless (remember the earlier team america played it and now they don't). Unless of course, you are running a LD deck, but in that case we need smallpox, and the whole package (crucible/loam etc).

You listed 22 lands in a deck that is EXREMELY mana-hungry. But we don't have brainstorms or ponders to search for lands (and these costs are agressive, I see a lot of double black). Also I didn't understand the savannah, you will almost never fetch it since you always need double black.

Still on the manabase issue, there are 10 fetchlands, 0 basics, and no way to protect the lands. This deck is more likely to get a wasteland then return home (the deck wants to play tapped out, meaning you can't spare fetches without cracking every time).

You must decide if you want a tempo list or a control list, and there is a line between these two that not everyone is aware of.

Again, sorry, I don't want to start a flamewar nor be an asshole. I'm just discussing about one of the decks I like most (the rock-type decks).

[Hanni]

@Hanny

I may once again be saying rubbish, BUT the reason the original Dark Horizons list ran Vindicate over sinkhole is that if you are attempting the tempo paly and draw it early, you wreck your opponent's manabase; if you draw that on the late game, it is not a wasted card. Sinkhole is not used anymore because drawing it after turn 3-4 is useless (remember the earlier team america played it and now they don't). Unless of course, you are running a LD deck, but in that case we need smallpox, and the whole package (crucible/loam etc).

You listed 22 lands in a deck that is EXREMELY mana-hungry. But we don't have brainstorms or ponders to search for lands (and these costs are agressive, I see a lot of double black). Also I didn't understand the savannah, you will almost never fetch it since you always need double black.

Still on the manabase issue, there are 10 fetchlands, 0 basics, and no way to protect the lands. This deck is more likely to get a wasteland then return home (the deck wants to play tapped out, meaning you can't spare fetches without cracking every time).

You must decide if you want a tempo list or a control list, and there is a line between these two that not everyone is aware of.

Again, sorry, I don't want to start a flamewar nor be an asshole. I'm just discussing about one of the decks I like most (the rock-type decks).


That's not flame, nor being an asshole. That was a perfectly fine assessment. I posted that disclaimer because of the shit people were saying in the other thread I made.

22 lands is probably 1-2 too few, unless I fit in some Libraries or something.

Sinkhole may or may not be worth it, but there are a few top tier decks that they are good against right now. I'd like to at least do some testing with them against a gauntlet, before completely dismissing them.

The Savannah might not be necessary, but I think having the option to fetch it is nice. I need to do more playtesting to see often I actually fetch for it.

I didn't include any basics because the deck wants access to all of its colors early, and it wants BB and GG. If the deck needs to run more lands total, that's one thing... but I'm not sure that basics is where this deck wants to be. I did have a single Swamp in there at one point, though.

[Sughayyer]

@Hanni
Take a look at my last post at The Rock thread, where I put 2 lists - one "midrange" with mother of runes, and the other more tempo-based. I achieved those by talking with my teammates, and I think that you, as I have, will like the second one.

On one more note, I am currently playing BW deadguy ale (but a different build than these running around), but I'm really dying to sleeve my BGW again.

[Hanni]

I looked at your decklists, and there are some things I like and some don't, but both lists look solid.

I did some thinking on it, and I actually do like Dark Confidant in here. It's not a big fast clock like Tombstalker is, but it does do alot of good things in here. As many people have mentioned over and over in this thread and others, black lacks the cantrips and thus the consistency of blue decks. Dark Confidant himself may be a horrible beater, but he can still swing for 2 on a clean board, and the card advantage can easily turn into board advantage with this deck. I'd much rather run Dark Confidant than Top or Sylvan Library, since Confidant can actually swing. Top is a mana sink, and Library only provides card advantage for significant life loss. Top definitely doesn't fit in the aggressive shell. Library is good, but I feel as though Confidant is better.

The most recent list I posted went down to 1 Tombstalker, and I can justify cutting it to make room for a playset of Confidants. I've used Confidant in this deck before (as far back as 2007 when I originally made this thread), so I know how good he can be. Tombstalker was a big reason for not playing him, but without Tombstalker, I think he's worth fitting back in.

I'm not sure how well 3 Terravore is going to work without Sinkhole, but I see no reason why he wouldn't be large enough by the time he comes down, without them. A couple of fetches in both yards, and a single Wasteland makes him a 6/6 Trample (bigger than Tombstalker, still has evasion), so we'll see.

With Confidant, I'm not sure whether the deck actually needs another land now. I'll toss the extra land in anyway, but this could also become the 4th Abrupt Decay, a single Umezawa's Jitte, a single Sylvan Library, etc.

Here's my updated list:

B/G/w Deadguy Rock

Lands (23)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland

Creaturues (15)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Terravore

Spells (22)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Vindicate

I could also do 4 Decay 3 Vindicate instead, but I'm going to stick to Vindicate for now for its ability to deal with stuff larger than 3cc, and its ability to hit lands. This may change after more playtesting.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that I'd like to update the OP and add a Primer, when I get the time to.

EDIT 2: Things I am going to consider while testing:

Is the 23rd land necessary, or can I cut back down to 22? If I can cut back down to 22, I'd fit in the 4th Decay.

Would I rather have the 4th Decay instead of the 4th Vindicate?

Do I need 3 Terravore, or is 3 too many? If 3 is too many and I cut one, I'd fit in the 4th Decay.

[Sughayyer]

The list is more to my liking now! :D
1) do you need 11 discard spells?
2) reliquary without maze? WHYYYYYYYYYY? :(
3) too many 3 cmc cards. this WILL get clunky. suggestion: take 4 vindicates away, add 2 pulse. I know, pulse doesn't break lands, and it seems you are stick to that idea.... it's a bad idea. Breaking lands via vindicate is useful for providing tempo advantage i.e, it is paired with mox diamond and hymnn to tourach, and then if you get vindicate too late, it is still a "generic" removal. But LD doesn't work anymore. Pulse provides multi-targetting. You could use Deed instead.

I am saying all this because playing BGW we have 2 issues: we must be REDUNDANT (no brainstorm and jace for us) and we must be EFFICIENT (make sure all cards are good even as mid/late game draws). The mox diamond in my list utterly fails that last prerequisite, but on late draws it was used as another pinch for liliana (thinking of a way to fit her in again, she IS efficient).

Why am I playing BW deadguy ale now? (well it's a slightly different build than the one current running around) It's because almost every card is worth 2.

Blossom, Souls, Confidant, Stoneforge, Cabal Therapy, all these provide solid card advantage, and board presence. Also, relying on tokens simply dismiss your opponents' removal spells as useless, since you got an assembly line of creatures. I don't even know why I brought this up.... who knows, maybe I'm sleepy

[Hanni]

The list is more to my liking now! :D
1) do you need 11 discard spells?
2) reliquary without maze? WHYYYYYYYYYY? :(
3) too many 3 cmc cards. this WILL get clunky. suggestion: take 4 vindicates away, add 2 pulse. I know, pulse doesn't break lands, and it seems you are stick to that idea.... it's a bad idea. Breaking lands via vindicate is useful for providing tempo advantage i.e, it is paired with mox diamond and hymnn to tourach, and then if you get vindicate too late, it is still a "generic" removal. But LD doesn't work anymore. Pulse provides multi-targetting. You could use Deed instead.

1) I'm running 11 discard spells because of the strategy I am trying to execute (resource denial). With only 4-8 discard spells, my chances starting the game off with one are decreased. If I run only 4 1cc discard and 4 Hymn, my chances of having a discard as a turn 1 play decreases even further. I don't just want to snag the opponent's best card with a single discard spell and move on. With the focus being on resource denial, I want to hit the opponent with several discard spells to deplete their resources. 11 discard spells helps me do that better than 4-8 do.

2) Well, Maze is an option, but since it doesn't tap for mana, it would be replacing a spell instead of a land. I'm not against it in this deck, but I haven't included it in my list because I'm not sure that I want it. Spending my first turn after dropping a Knight, to search for Maze instead of attacking, is my biggest deterrent. It may end up being worth it to me, even in an aggressive shell like this, but that's my reasoning for not including it in the list I posted above.

3) The amount of 3cc spells may be a bit too clunky. My plan is to spend the early turns casting discard spells and removal, before dropping a fatty to close the game out. I'd like to do some more testing and examine my curve, before making any changes.

I disagree about the use of land destruction. The format has been slowly getting more mana hungry over the years, and we are actually at a point in time where it is the hungriest it has been in a long time.

Miracles is a deck that wants to reach 4 mana for Jace, as much mana as possible for Entreat the Angels, and a ton of other expensive spells like Counterspell, Counterbalance and Top, Snapcaster Mage + flashback, etc.

Show and Tell decks want 3 mana to cast its namesake card. The Sneak Attack lists need 4 mana to cast Sneak Attack, or 5 mana when they want to cast it and activate it in the same turn.

Maverick decks using GSZ can also be mana hungry, since GSZ makes each creature cost 1 more mana than normal. GSZ into Knight costs 4 mana; GSZ into Thrun can cost 5, for those that still run Thrun. Ooze itself is mana hungry, unless the Maverick player leaves it at 2/2. SFM, and equipment in general, is mana hungry. Maverick satisfies the mana hunger by running mana dorks, but it doesn't change the fact that Maverick is a mana hungry deck.

Goblins and Merfolk are similar to Maverick, except they use Vial instead of the mana dorks.

Even other lesser played decks like Nic Fit and Blade Control can be mana hungry.

Not every deck fits into this classification, but many of the decks that aren't mana hungry, replace the hunger with hefty color requirements. It's fairly common to find three color decks with lower curves that have heavy demands for colors. While attacking the manabase there might not be as rewarding as some of the mana hungry decks, cutting them off of the appropriate colors can often stunt their development far more than discard or non-land permanent removal would.

The land destruction plan is not going to be a strong plan every game, and I understand that. However, getting lands into the graveyard in and of itself is going to boost the size of Terravore, so there is still a benefit to blowing up lands. The fact that there are tons of colorless costs in this deck for Wasteland to tap for, and the fact that Vindicate is general permanent removal, makes the deck very versatile in its attack. I would not drop Vindicate for Maelstrom Pulse in the maindeck.


I am saying all this because playing BGW we have 2 issues: we must be REDUNDANT (no brainstorm and jace for us) and we must be EFFICIENT (make sure all cards are good even as mid/late game draws). The mox diamond in my list utterly fails that last prerequisite, but on late draws it was used as another pinch for liliana (thinking of a way to fit her in again, she IS efficient).

Why am I playing BW deadguy ale now? (well it's a slightly different build than the one current running around) It's because almost every card is worth 2.

Blossom, Souls, Confidant, Stoneforge, Cabal Therapy, all these provide solid card advantage, and board presence. Also, relying on tokens simply dismiss your opponents' removal spells as useless, since you got an assembly line of creatures. I don't even know why I brought this up.... who knows, maybe I'm sleepy

I'd say 11 discard, 11 permanent removal, and 11 big creatures is pretty redundant.

This deck simply will not be as efficient as other decks like RUG Tempo, no matter how hard you try. This deck leverages tempo differently; it uses slower more expensive spells to disrupt the opponent and slow the game down. It's still similar to what RUG Tempo does... in other words, the result still ends up with the opponent not being able to execute their gameplan properly during the early game. The difference is that, since our spells are more expensive, we cannot drop creatures on the board at the same time. We disrupt without advancing our gameplan, while a deck like RUG Tempo disrupts while advancing their gameplan. That's just the nature of black disruption vs blue disruption; their stuff is free, and our stuff is not. We make up for this by dropping larger creatures in the midgame. A 1/1 Goose played on turn 2 that grows to 3/3 on turn 4 + a turn 3 Delver that flips to 3/2 on turn 4... is roughly the same clock as a 4/5 Goyf played on turn 3 + a 5/5 Knight of the Reliquary played on turn 4, that grows to 7/7 on turn 6. Deadguy Rock may not want to play its creatures quite that early in many cases, but you get the idea. Instead of needing to attack the opponent for a longer period of time with more cost efficient creatures that come down sooner, Deadguy Rocks creatures kill the opponent much faster once dropped but don't come down till later. The actual length of time it takes to kill the opponent is not drastically different, though. While RUG Tempo will still kill the opponent faster much of the time (especially if it uses its burn to finish the opponent off), it also runs out of gas alot easier if it isn't able to kill the opponent fast enough.

I'm not knocking on RUG with my above analysis; RUG is a very strong deck, with a history of dominating performances dating back as far as 2006, with few to no bad matchups. I'm only comparing some of the differences of between Canadian Threshold and Deadguy Rock.

Basically, my point is that this deck lacks the early game efficiency of a deck like RUG Tempo, but compensates for it with its stronger midrange. This deck is the midrange version of the 'tons of disruption early -> kill the opponent with a fast clock before they recover' gameplan, that's all.

The other big factor that you are neglecting is that the heavy discard + heavy permanent removal slows the game down drastically. The opponents best (and often most efficient) cards are discarded, and the permanents they do resolve get destroyed. The game drags into the midgame, but the only progression of the gamestate is the amount of lands in play. Neither player should have alot going on; the board should be pretty empty on both sides, and the hand sizes should be relatively small. At that point, dropping 3cc bombs is exactly what you want to be doing.

I will try and evaluate my curve during testing though. It may be a little too topheavy, like you said.

EDIT: I should have mentioned this, so I'll do it with an edit.

This deck has problems with hyper efficient decks that can spit out tons of spells faster than it can discard and destroy. That's why decks like Tendrils Storm and Sligh/Zoo* decks are bad matchups... but the thing is, those decks are currently seeing little play because of U/W Counterbalance Miracles, U/W/b Stoneblade, G/W Maverick, and U/G/r Canadian Threshold**. This was one of the reasons I used to run Pernicious Deed in this deck (there's a lengthy discussion about it in the first few pages of this thread, from back in 2007-2008). At that time, Deed was pretty good in the metagame... Storm decks were using EtW, the Zoo lists were becoming slower to beat the mirror, etc. Obviously, the format is different now, new cards have been printed, there are new dominant strategies, etc... so maindeck Deed is no longer warranted.

*In regards to Zoo, it's the Fast Zoo lists that this deck has problems with. The Big Zoo lists are generally a good matchup.*

**Although RUG Tempo is a hyper efficient deck that can spit out a ton of spells quickly, it is actually a favorable matchup for Deadguy Rock. This is because RUG Tempo focuses on disrupting its opponent instead of strictly focusing on accelerating its own gameplan. The discard in Deadguy Rock is a trump to the situational countermagic. RUG Tempo's aggro creatures do not apply as much pressure as Zoo, or apply pressure as quickly as Sligh. Deadguy Rock can reduce the card quality that the opponent gains with cantrips via discard, and has enough time to actually resolve removal (Plow/Decay). At which point, Deadguy Rock's larger midrange creatures are capable of outclassing RUG Tempo's smaller creatures. Deadguy Rock's removal is also effective at killing Delver and Goyf, while RUG Tempo's burn is only effective at killing Dark Confidant. This matchup is somewhat similar to Maverick vs Zoo... Maverick is not as fast and as efficient as Zoo at killing the opponent, but it has enough time to outclass Zoo with its superior midrange gameplan.**

[mmmetaphor]

I looked at your decklists, and there are some things I like and some don't, but both lists look solid.

I did some thinking on it, and I actually do like Dark Confidant in here. It's not a big fast clock like Tombstalker is, but it does do alot of good things in here. As many people have mentioned over and over in this thread and others, black lacks the cantrips and thus the consistency of blue decks. Dark Confidant himself may be a horrible beater, but he can still swing for 2 on a clean board, and the card advantage can easily turn into board advantage with this deck. I'd much rather run Dark Confidant than Top or Sylvan Library, since Confidant can actually swing. Top is a mana sink, and Library only provides card advantage for significant life loss. Top definitely doesn't fit in the aggressive shell. Library is good, but I feel as though Confidant is better.

The most recent list I posted went down to 1 Tombstalker, and I can justify cutting it to make room for a playset of Confidants. I've used Confidant in this deck before (as far back as 2007 when I originally made this thread), so I know how good he can be. Tombstalker was a big reason for not playing him, but without Tombstalker, I think he's worth fitting back in.

I'm not sure how well 3 Terravore is going to work without Sinkhole, but I see no reason why he wouldn't be large enough by the time he comes down, without them. A couple of fetches in both yards, and a single Wasteland makes him a 6/6 Trample (bigger than Tombstalker, still has evasion), so we'll see.

With Confidant, I'm not sure whether the deck actually needs another land now. I'll toss the extra land in anyway, but this could also become the 4th Abrupt Decay, a single Umezawa's Jitte, a single Sylvan Library, etc.

Here's my updated list:

B/G/w Deadguy Rock

Lands (23)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland

Creaturues (15)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Terravore

Spells (22)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Vindicate

I could also do 4 Decay 3 Vindicate instead, but I'm going to stick to Vindicate for now for its ability to deal with stuff larger than 3cc, and its ability to hit lands. This may change after more playtesting.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that I'd like to update the OP and add a Primer, when I get the time to.

EDIT 2: Things I am going to consider while testing:

Is the 23rd land necessary, or can I cut back down to 22? If I can cut back down to 22, I'd fit in the 4th Decay.

Would I rather have the 4th Decay instead of the 4th Vindicate?

Do I need 3 Terravore, or is 3 too many? If 3 is too many and I cut one, I'd fit in the 4th Decay.

So you cut sinkhole from the list? With sinkhole main I think vindicate is easily justified however without it, I would consider maelstrom pulse superior to vindicate.

[Hanni]

There will be situations where Maelstrom is better, and it is easier on the manabase. On the other hand, 4 Wasteland and 4 Hymn still provide enough potential manabase disruption to justify Vindicate in my disruption package. Knight being able to tutor up Wastelands can further add to this, in situations where that is warranted.

If others wish to use Pulse instead, that's fine. There are advantages to both. I will be sticking to Vindicates though.

EDIT: Typed this response up on my phone at work. Stupid typos, making me look foreign (no offense) or illiterate. Fixed.

[Vandalize]

I've been testing this deck, and it's pretty fun to play. I took Hanni's list and made some small modifications.

Lands [23]
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland

Creatures [15]
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
3 Terravore

Spells [22]
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate

Sideboard [15]
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Krosan Grip
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Seedtime

Jesus, Seedtime is a card I've been wanting to play forever, and this deck uses it nice against blue matchups. Responding to a Brainstorm/Permission with it, if you have an early Goyf or Confidant is pure tempo advantage, and it's awesome.

I put 8 Leylines on the side, because they're pretty efficient in what they do, and this deck wants to tap out in the early 3 turns to either disrupt or play threats. Moreover, those Leylines aren't that bad of a topdeck, because they can be cast eventually.

Krosan Grip is needed in this metagame, mainly against Omniscience, because thanks to God, that's not Hive Mind and they can't hold priority to play Instants. And it's awesome against Blade.dec and Counterbalance (which shouldn't be a problem, as we have a lot on CMC3).

Thrun deals with Miracles pretty good, as they need Terminus in time, or they'll lose. The same for Stoneblade, he's just a beast.

I've been waiting for a long time to see an agressive Rock build. People are durdling with Nic Fit, and other Perinicious Deed control crap, and forget how good is to play a Tarmogoyf and beat to death. This deck is almost a Tempo Rock, lol.

[Hanni]

Not sure that I agree with the Leylines of the Void... you really want your graveyard for big Knights. No graveyards at all means 0/1 Goyfs, 0/0 Terravores, and 2/2 Knights. You turn your clock from an impressive killing machine, into the most abysmal clock I've ever seen.

Unless you have Leyline in the opener, you're never casting it before it becomes irrelevant against Dredge (and even Reanimator). This deck doesn't run Dark Ritual or mana decks to accelerate to 4 mana, and Wasteland keeps this deck from hitting 4 mana by turn 4.

1 Bojuka Bog and 3 Tormod's Crypt is the graveyard hate that I would run in the sideboard. Tormod's Crypt costs the same 0 mana, but you don't need it in your opener, and it doesn't take your big beaters to the Vet for a neuter job. Bojuka Bog gives you a something you can tutor for in the midgame if the first Crypt is not enough, via Knight. Bog can also be played from hand for minimal tempo loss, and it dodges Cabal Therapy quite nicely.

Leyline of Sanctity is fucking awesome. It is the perfect answer to Burn, Sligh, and Tendrils Storm (which just so happen to be our worst matchups). The fact that we can hardcast it is just icing on the cake.

Not sure about Krosan Grip, since Decay/Vindicate do the same thing, for the most part. Instant and Split Second is nice and all, but I'm pretty happy with where my SNT matchup is at already. If anything, I'd be running Oblivion Rings instead.

Thrun sounds like a solid option against Miracles and Stoneblade. We have Karakas (and Knight to tutor), which makes him even better.

I'm not sure if the Time Walk (Seedtime) is actually necessary for blue decks, since blue decks tend to be pretty good matchups for this deck, and there are other more versatile options like Choke. Seedtime does look extremely fun, though.

What I think this deck really needs in the sideoard, are more answers for Maverick and Goblins. Engineered Plague seems like one of the best options, since it totally destroys Goblins, and has a ton of relevant targets against Maverick.

We cannot really afford to run Perish for Maverick. Virtue's Ruin only deals with half the problem vs Maverick, while having the drawback of hitting a 3rd of our own guys. Neither of those do anything to Goblins, anyway.

The fact that Plague can hit other lesser played problem matchups like Elves and Zombardment (Sam Black style), among others... is just gravy.

EE and Pernicious Deed are some other options, but both of those are still symmetrical in those matchups (Maverick and Goblins), and both are pretty slow.

The final option would be Umezawa's Jitte, which might be even better than Plague for those matchups, but I'm not quite sure.

Long story short, some amount of Engineered Plague or Umezawa's Jitte seem like fantastic sideboard options for this deck to be running. Maybe a 2/2 split?

Anyway, thanks for the input. You know, it's actually pretty funny... I just cut the 4th Vindicate for the 4th Abrupt Decay this morning, lol. I still like the single Savannah though. I also ended up cutting 1 Terravore for the 4th Thoughtseize... I really like having the full 8 1cc discard spells to give me the least amount of variance for having a turn 1 play, and it lessens my top heavy curve of 3cc spells a bit. Turn 1 targeted discard is such a powerful opening play for this deck; at this point, I think I'd rather cut the 4th Hymn before I cut the 8th 1cc discard spell, if for some reason I felt that 12 discard spells was one too many.

[Valtrix]

tl;dr: I don't like Crypt. Sanctity is good for some matches, but not the ones you're likely to face. SFM+Equipment is a beast, I think it definitely deserves consideration. Engineered Plague is probably pretty good. I don't like Wasteland in this deck, is Mishra's Factory maybe viable? Also, I don't like this post much, but I spent more time writing it than I expected.


Not sure that I agree with the Leylines of the Void... you really want your graveyard for big Knights. No graveyards at all means 0/1 Goyfs, 0/0 Terravores, and 2/2 Knights. You turn your clock from an impressive killing machine, into the most abysmal clock I've ever seen.

Leyline of the Void affects just your opponent's graveyard. This is relevant for Tarmogoyf and Terravore, but not for Knight.


Unless you have Leyline in the opener, you're never casting it before it becomes irrelevant against Dredge (and even Reanimator). This deck doesn't run Dark Ritual or mana decks to accelerate to 4 mana, and Wasteland keeps this deck from hitting 4 mana by turn 4.

I don't agree with this. If you keep a hand without GY hate, it better be a damn good hand, otherwise you're unlikely to win against the graveyard decks. If you do have hate in your opener, you want the strongest hate, which I think Leyline is in my opinion since it can't be countered and is free for you.


[cards]1 Bojuka Bog and 3 Tormod's Crypt is the graveyard hate that I would run in the sideboard. Tormod's Crypt costs the same 0 mana, but you don't need it in your opener, and it doesn't take your big beaters to the Vet for a neuter job. Bojuka Bog gives you a something you can tutor for in the midgame if the first Crypt is not enough, via Knight. Bog can also be played from hand for minimal tempo loss, and it dodges Cabal Therapy quite nicely.

Bog is a card I can get behind. I don't like Crypt in this deck, because I crypt is suited more suited for faster decks that really care about zero cost to keep their tempo. I think you can afford to run stronger hate of Nihil Spellbomb or Grafdigger's Cage. In particular I like Spellbomb because of its use against Snapcaster Mage.


Leyline of Sanctity is fucking awesome. It is the perfect answer to Burn, Sligh, and Tendrils Storm (which just so happen to be our worst matchups). The fact that we can hardcast it is just icing on the cake.

I think Leyline of Sanctity is pretty strong for those matchups, but the more important question is how often do you expect to run into those matchups? I wager not particularly often, and Leyline is not great outside of those matches. As such, I would look towards finding cards that help matches you're more likely to run into. If you're really worried about those decks (which you shouldn't be most of the time), you can look to cards that are good against them, but also good elsewhere.


Not sure about Krosan Grip, since Decay/Vindicate do the same thing, for the most part. Instant and Split Second is nice and all, but I'm pretty happy with where my SNT matchup is at already. If anything, I'd be running Oblivion Rings instead.

Krosan Grip is no longer necessary with the printing of Abrupt Decay. About the only think Grip deals with that decay does not is Batterskull. Decay being able to hit creatures and costing one less makes it much better by a wide margin. That said, decay should be a 4-of in the main, so if you want more answers postboard to artifacts/enchantments, I agree that Oblivion Ring is next best for its ability to deal with Planeswalkers (Jace) and usefulness against the Show and Tell decks.


Thrun sounds like a solid option against Miracles and Stoneblade. We have Karakas (and Knight to tutor), which makes him even better.

Thrun is very strong. I think he probably can find a place in the 75 against Miracles and Stoneblade. Worm Harvest is also great against those decks, and might be a potential choice as well, although in in the end it's probably weaker because of the cost.


What I think this deck really needs in the sideoard, are more answers for Maverick and Goblins. Engineered Plague seems like one of the best options, since it totally destroys Goblins, and has a ton of relevant targets against Maverick.

The fact that Plague can hit other lesser played problem matchups like Elves and Zombardment (Sam Black style), among others... is just gravy.

Engineered Plague is definitely a viable SB option. If goblins is a large part of what you expect to face, then I think it's probably a good choice. Without SFM + Batterskull I don't think there's any better card you can run against them. And the utility in random other matchups are pretty strong too.


EE and Pernicious Deed are some other options, but both of those are still symmetrical in those matchups (Maverick and Goblins), and both are pretty slow.

I agree that these are too slow in an already mana-hungry deck. There are simply better mass-removal options if that's what you want.


The final option would be Umezawa's Jitte, which might be even better than Plague for those matchups, but I'm not quite sure.

Jitte is certainly powerful, although as a SB card I am a bit hesitant because I want my SB cards to impact the board state a little sooner. Remember threats are pretty costly in this deck, so Jitte isn't getting online before turn 4. It's also a pretty huge tempo sink if it or your creature gets destroyed, which can be crippling.

I mean, for 2 + 2 mana I could just be playing SFM + batterskull, which seems like a much stronger play in general (while requiring more space in your 75). It certainly is a rough combination for them to deal with. In fact, have you tried with them in the main at all? I think that SFM + Batterskull should definitely be a consideration in any deck that runs white. Consider also that with 7+ T1 discard spells your ability to play a T2 Mystic into a batterskull while preventing your opponent from answering can be crippling against many decks. Additionally, I think you could run a Jitte in the main or Side which could be fetched out.

Again, the deck is stressed for room, but I think the power of SFM is incredibly high. Batterskull is a great answer to more aggressive decks, which the deck can struggle with, as well as an pain for control decks to deal with because of recursion.


I still like the single Savannah though.

I fell that having one is correct. In three colors you almost always want the ability to search up any pair of colors, because when you draw that land it rarely hurts you and there are plenty of situations where you want to fetch for it.


I also ended up cutting 1 Terravore for the 4th Thoughtseize...

I like reducing the curve. You might also consider adding a Sensei's Divining top instead of the 8th discard spell and maybe even finding room for a second top. I think Top is very strong in a midrange deck like this, especially if you run any number of dark confidants. That said, I can't really fault you for running discard because it is very meaningful to have in a lot of bad matchups, and to protect your threats in general.

I noticed also that Volrath's Stronghold was not in the above list. I think that in black with 12+ creatures it's very strong, and with Knight of the Reliquary I see almost no reason why I wouldn't want one of them in the list.

I will preface my last statement with the notion that I always undervalue Wasteland, but in a deck like this I really am not a fan of wasteland. I feel that in general this deck is more mana-hungry than anything you're likely to play against, and as such needing to hold onto your mana sources is incredibly important. While wasteland can just get there sometimes, especially in combination with Vindicate or fetching with Knight of the Reliquary, I feel that such situations are less likely than the situations where you need to save your mana to play spells and your Vindicates to kill non-land permanents. Especially since a lot of other decks play mana-denial chances are if you and your opponent waste a land that they're in a better position than you are.

I can understand the need for utility lands though, since I think you can easily afford to run them. I haven't tested this, but I actually think Mishra's Factory could be a strong card in the deck. Having a 3/3 on defense is great against a lot of decks, and increasing the threat density in general is good and could give the deck more things to do. That said, it could end up being pretty awful, but right now I kind of like the idea of it.

[Hanni]

Leyline of the Void affects just your opponent's graveyard. This is relevant for Tarmogoyf and Terravore, but not for Knight.

Wow I feel like a retard now. It's been so long since I've actually used the card, or seen it played against me. I should know better, because I ran 4 for GP Columbus as an answer to Hulk Flash. =/

I guess with RIP being printed, and hitting both yards, I kinda just assumed it was a Leyline of the Void effect that also RFG'd the stuff that was already in the yard (minus the Leyline part).

Anyway, thanks for correcting me.


Bog is a card I can get behind. I don't like Crypt in this deck, because I crypt is suited more suited for faster decks that really care about zero cost to keep their tempo. I think you can afford to run stronger hate of Nihil Spellbomb or Grafdigger's Cage. In particular I like Spellbomb because of its use against Snapcaster Mage.

I can get behind Spellbomb instead of Crypt. It does seem like it would be much better suited for this deck. Thanks for the suggestion.


I think Leyline of Sanctity is pretty strong for those matchups, but the more important question is how often do you expect to run into those matchups? I wager not particularly often, and Leyline is not great outside of those matches. As such, I would look towards finding cards that help matches you're more likely to run into. If you're really worried about those decks (which you shouldn't be most of the time), you can look to cards that are good against them, but also good elsewhere.

Those matchups may not be popular, but they are the worst matchups for this deck, bar none. You can never know when you may face those sorts of decks for the first few rounds of a tournament (if you don't have byes), so I think the white Leylines are still worth consideration.


Jitte is certainly powerful, although as a SB card I am a bit hesitant because I want my SB cards to impact the board state a little sooner.

You're probably right on this, and I was pretty much sold on Engineered Plague already anyway.


I mean, for 2 + 2 mana I could just be playing SFM + batterskull, which seems like a much stronger play in general (while requiring more space in your 75). It certainly is a rough combination for them to deal with. In fact, have you tried with them in the main at all? I think that SFM + Batterskull should definitely be a consideration in any deck that runs white. Consider also that with 7+ T1 discard spells your ability to play a T2 Mystic into a batterskull while preventing your opponent from answering can be crippling against many decks. Additionally, I think you could run a Jitte in the main or Side which could be fetched out.

Again, the deck is stressed for room, but I think the power of SFM is incredibly high. Batterskull is a great answer to more aggressive decks, which the deck can struggle with, as well as an pain for control decks to deal with because of recursion.

This deck is only midrange in the aspect that it slows the early gamestate down with disruption, enough so to get it to the midgame, and then drop fat midrange creatures. The midrange creatures are extremely aggressive to compensate for not advancing its own gameplan in the early game. SFM is incredibly slow, not only because it delays putting out a decent clock for an additional turn after it has been cast, but it also requires a bigger mana investment (regardless if it is spread out over 2 turns). If I were to run SFM, it would be in place of Dark Confidant, as they fulfill a similar role; squishy, give the deck some additional card advantage, and can dominate the game if left unchecked. I think Dark Confidant is better suited for this deck, though.


I noticed also that Volrath's Stronghold was not in the above list. I think that in black with 12+ creatures it's very strong, and with Knight of the Reliquary I see almost no reason why I wouldn't want one of them in the list.

That's not a bad idea, but my only problem with it is that the majority of the removal spells being played in Legacy right now either A) Exile target creature, or B) Put all creatures to the bottom of its owner's library. The only effect that burn has as removal is when dealing with Dark Confidant. That leaves Abrupt Decay as the only removal spell that I can think of that will see alot of play, and make Stronghold worth it. Supreme Verdict may see some play too, but a 4cc Wrath of God with uncounterability is still a 4cc Wrath of God.


I will preface my last statement with the notion that I always undervalue Wasteland, but in a deck like this I really am not a fan of wasteland. I feel that in general this deck is more mana-hungry than anything you're likely to play against, and as such needing to hold onto your mana sources is incredibly important. While wasteland can just get there sometimes, especially in combination with Vindicate or fetching with Knight of the Reliquary, I feel that such situations are less likely than the situations where you need to save your mana to play spells and your Vindicates to kill non-land permanents. Especially since a lot of other decks play mana-denial chances are if you and your opponent waste a land that they're in a better position than you are.

I can understand the need for utility lands though, since I think you can easily afford to run them. I haven't tested this, but I actually think Mishra's Factory could be a strong card in the deck. Having a 3/3 on defense is great against a lot of decks, and increasing the threat density in general is good and could give the deck more things to do. That said, it could end up being pretty awful, but right now I kind of like the idea of it.

On this particular issue, I have to disagree. Wasteland is absolutely brutal in here, and I have won countless games because of the card, and very few times where I have been disappointed to see it. I have a ton of colorless costs that it can tap for, I do not have the cantrips to shuffle away excess lands, and it's another element of disruption that happens to compliment the resource denial strategy perfectly. This deck may run some expensive spells, but it lacks the cantrips, and mana sinks like Top, to keep it casting multiple high cc spells (to warrant not sacrificing my own lands). I have no 4cc spells maindeck, and I tend to run low on spells and go into topdeck mode by midgame. At the point where I have a couple of permanent removal spells in hand that I am waiting for something to resolve to use, and I'm waiting to topdeck a creature, I have no use for the excess lands I will draw.

Factory is mana hungry as a beater, and this deck has plenty of discard and removal to not need it on defense against the vast majority of decks. For the few decks that spam out creatures rediculously fast and overwhelm my discard/removal... Factory is probably too slow anyway. Besides, most of those decks (like Goblins) run their own Wastelands anyway. As additional threats against control decks, it's solid, but so is Wasteland. I'd much rather have Wasteland against control matchups. Maybe I could consider a single Nantuko Monastery, fetchable via Knight, but I haven't had the desire for that line of play, yet... because I'd rather attack my [control] opponent, rather than waste the turn tapping my Knight. If I'm tapping the Knight against control, it's because I've already hurt their manabase significantly, and I'm grabbing Wastelands to lay the smackdown on them.

Just my 2 cents on the Wasteland issue, anyway. I know I won't be dropping them anytime soon, as they have been invaluable for me in this archetype. However, I won't go so far as to call them mandatory (same thing for the Pulse vs Vindicate debate), so if you'd rather run different utility lands instead (like Mishra's Factory), I won't heckle you about it.

[Valtrix]

That's not a bad idea, but my only problem with it is that the majority of the removal spells being played in Legacy right now either A) Exile target creature, or B) Put all creatures to the bottom of its owner's library.

Counterspells are also "removal," and in any given game I think it's likely that a creature will reach the Graveyard. In any case, whenever I run a deck with 12+ creatures in black (especially with Knight), I find Stronghold to just be one of those cards I always want around.

I don't agree that SFM is really slow. Sure it's a total investment of 4 mana, but it has a huge impact to the board. You have a great defender, attacker, and stabilizer. It's great in almost every matchup between gaining life against aggressive decks or being pesky to deal with for control type decks. It's also card advantage, and you have the potential to get Jitte or Batterskull, both of which are incredible. It's actually not bad against combo decks either because of the lifegain.

In the end Wasteland is still probably right to play. I just need to stop playing control and more decks with Wasteland :P

[Hanni]

Counterspells are also "removal," and in any given game I think it's likely that a creature will reach the Graveyard. In any case, whenever I run a deck with 12+ creatures in black (especially with Knight), I find Stronghold to just be one of those cards I always want around.

This may be due to the way I play the deck, but very rarely do my creatures eat countermagic. I run more than enough 1cc discard (that lets me see my opponents hand) to know when I can and can not resolve my creatures. Walking creatures into countermagic in this deck is bad play, IMO. It might happen on occasion, but it shouldn't be happening with regularity. The fact that a big chunk of the countermagic being played right now is Spell Pierce, makes playing creatures through countermagic that much easier.



In the end Wasteland is still probably right to play. I just need to stop playing control and more decks with Wasteland :P

Well, I agree with you on that point. I've been against Wasteland in control decks for years. My U/W CounterTop Superfriends thread (that got renamed to Miracle Control) has plenty of discussion about that. I've also posted those sentiments in the old Landstill thread, the earlier pages of the Stoneblade thread, so on and so forth. The only time I ever considered them was during Merfolk's heydey, where having 4 uncounterable removal spells for their most problematic (resilient) threats was worth it; Mutavault, in this case.

---

I also want to touch on two more things before I go to bed.


I like reducing the curve. You might also consider adding a Sensei's Divining top instead of the 8th discard spell and maybe even finding room for a second top. I think Top is very strong in a midrange deck like this, especially if you run any number of dark confidants. That said, I can't really fault you for running discard because it is very meaningful to have in a lot of bad matchups, and to protect your threats in general.

While this deck does eventually get into topdeck mode by the midgame, I still don't feel that Top is right for this deck. The only matchups that really go deep into the midgame to make Top worth it, would be against Control decks, where I agree that having Top's there would be great.

In any normal situation, this deck cannot afford to cast and spin Top until at least turn 4. This deck is mana hungry during the early game, and Top is a mana hungry card quality engine. Against non-Control decks, I don't need to continuously keep digging for threats to slowly chip away at them through a sea of removal spells. Once I hit the midgame and my opponent has few to no cards left in hand, few to no permanents in play, and a disrupted manabase, a single fatty will close out the game. Finding a second fatty if the first one gets dealt with is fairly easy.

The other issue with Top is Wasteland. Those two spells do not have the greatest synergy together. In order to cast my 3cc bombs in the midgame while I'm spinning Top, I need 4 mana. 3 mana is relatively easy to get to in this deck, but 4 mana is alot harder when I want to be aggressive with Wasteland. Wasteland is just too good to justify cutting for Top, IMO.

If I were to run some card quality, it would be Sylvan Library. Library only costs 2 mana initial investment, and can allow me to draw extra cards in the matchups where my life total doesn't matter (especialy against decks using Swords to Plowshares on my fatties). However, I am currently satisfied with Dark Confidant for the role of a 2cc do-nothing-until-next-turn, because the constant card advantage is more valuable, and he can also apply pressure in the red zone. Those two last points are very important, IMO.

---

The other issue I wanted to bring up, is that I have been diligently writing an article about resource denial. I'm up to 10 pages in Microsoft Word right now, but the actual content of the article is nearly finished (but it's always the edits, restructuring of sentences, and formatting that takes the longest). It should address alot of things regarding this deck. The article is somewhat of a continuation to my failed thread in the Format and Article Discussion Forum (The Current Metagame: Junk vs Canadian Threshold), but I'm hoping that this one is a little less controversial. I tend to lose interest in discussing things when people start flaming and make personal attacks against me... I just ignore it, instead of feeding the trolls.

At any rate, I'll continue to chip away at the article, and hopefully I can have it finished in a few days. I'm very excited about it, since I put alot of work into it, and I feel that it is very informative. I will post it in the the Format and Article Discussion Forum when it's finished, and I will definitely be linking it in the OP of this thread.

Speaking of the OP... I will get around to updating that and making a Primer for it at some point, too.

Cheers.

[Hanni]

So after much deliberation, this is the sideboard I ended up with:

Sideboard (15)
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Infest
2 Choke
2 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Bojuka Bog
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale


The Leylines might not see much play, but I like having my ass covered against my worst matchups. The rest are used pretty frequently:

vs Goblins
-4 Dark Confidant
-2 Vindicate
+3 Infest
+2 Needle
+1 Tabernacle

vs Miracles
-1 Karakas
-4 Swords
+1 Bojuka Bog
+2 Choke
+2 Needle

vs Stoneblade
-1 Karakas
+1 Bojuka Bog

vs Show and Tell
-2 Swords to Plowshares
-4 Abrupt Decay
+1 Surgical
+1 Extirpate
+2 Pithing Needle
+2 Choke

vs Maverick
-1 Windswept Heath
-1 Dark Confidant
-1 Thoughtseize
-3 Vindicate
+1 Bojuka Bog
+2 Pithing Needle
+3 Infest

vs RUG Tempo
-1 Karakas
+1 Bojuka Bog

I ended up choosing Infest over Engineered Plague. Plague hitting humans vs Maverick shuts off Dark Confidant, whom I actually value in that matchup. Infest might kill him if he's already on the board, but that's alright. Infest being able to deal with Mother of Runes is the bigger issue, plus Infest can deal with Qasali Pridemages and the few other various 2/2's they might be running. Infest isn't as powerful as Plague against Goblins, but I have plenty enough of a clock to take advantage of the tempo swing that Infest can provide.

I went with Choke and Needles for Miracles instead of Thrun. Shutting down Sensei's Divining Top is just as good as bringing in some resilient threats... if they can't dig for removal or cast Terminus as effectively, my creatures will survive longer. Choke is also brutal... if I land a Choke, it's probably gg. Both are more versatile, and are useful in other matchups.

I decided to go with Surgical/Extirpate as my graveyard hate of choice, since they also have value against Show and Tell. I don't really need much for this matchup to begin with, since I already have 12 discard + a fast clock... but since I'm putting tons of a stuff in their graveyard and I have some dead spells, I might as well exile their Show and Tells. Plus, I do have some otherwise dead spells in this matchup.

Tabernacle can be absolutely brutal against various swarm aggro strategies. Goblins, Elves, Affinity, etc. Since it's pretty asymmetrical in those matchups due to my low threat density, and it's tutorable with Knight... this seems like an auto-include.

It's amazing just how good Bojuka Bog is in so many matchups. I may end up fitting one into the maindeck instead, and use the sideboard space for something else.

EDIT: I will add some more sideboarding strategies for other matchups when I get off of work.

I also forgot to address what you said about SFM. SFM is slow for what it does. At 2 mana, it is a 1/2 compared to Goyf at 4/5 or larger. At 4 mana (2+2), a 4/4 is smaller than a 7/7 Knight or 11/11 Terravore for 3 mana. I am not doubting the power of vigilance and lifelink, but SFM into Batterskull is a tempo sink. If I drop a SFM on turn 4, I won't get to swing for 4-5 damage until turn 6.

Don't get me wrong, SFM/Batterskull is a great combo. There are a ton of viable Rock variants out there that range from super fast to slow and durdly, with lots of stuff in between. Many of those variants are a perfect fit for her. For this variation of Rock specifically, I just don't think she fits well enough. What would you cut for her?

[feline]

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8917&iddeck=65737
Didn't realize this got 17th place at Gen con back in August:
2012 Gen Con Legacy Championship August-8th-2012 Devin Turner (350 Players)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
2 Vindicate
3 Lingering Souls
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Bitterblossom
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Karakas
2 Plains
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Swamp
4 Wasteland
~SB
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Extirpate
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Perish
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Vindicate
2 Tidehollow Sculler

[Hanni]

@ Feline

=/

I guess in a way, I'm glad that you posted that list, because it reminded me of some information I needed to include in the article I'm writing, that I had forgotten about.

I do want to point out though, that the decklist you posted is completely different fundamentally from what this deck is trying to achieve. It's kind of like posting a Naya Zoo deck in a Blue Sligh thread. Simple mistake, and I'm in no way faulting you for it. That list belongs in the B/W Deadguy Ale thread, not this one :wink:

[feline]

What the heck? I thought this was the B/W Deadguy Ale thread, how did that get posted in here? I'm sorry about that, I could have sworn when I came in here it was titled B/W Deadguy atop, I am baffled as to how that got past me.