[Deck] Landstill - Former DTB [Archive] - Page 3

Tacosnape

08-26-2006, 02:46 PM

1) You really don't want to dredge away business spells in this deck, because it has no synergy with the rest of the deck, and no recursion. All the business in here is usually pretty gassy, so it makes no sense to toss Force of Wills and Fact or Fictions in the bin, when instead I can have a static ability that says "recur Wasteland or Flooded Strand."
2) You don't want to tie up mana, especially your off color green, when you could have just spent 3 colorless (manlands always cast this) one time. The Tropical Islands are better served as being tapped to activate Nantuko Monastery, tapping to cast Pernicious Deed, or laying in wait untapped to cast a response (Counterspell, Stifle, Fact or Fiction, etc.).
3) For Life From the Loam to matter, you need to be playing cycling lands, or it's just a waste of tempo. This deck's manabase and business spell vs. mana source ratio doesn't leave room for cycling lands.

1. That's awful logic, because it doesn't change the fact that you're going to draw a random card. Life can also dredge cards off the top after a Brainstorm, can be dredged -with- a Brainstorm or a Standstill draw, and Life also allows you to dredge lands in when you don't get enough mana to get your board position set up. So if anything, Life's presence -increases- your chance of drawing business spells over Crucible.

2. That's terrific logic, very true, and a very good point.

3. Life is also lot harder to get rid of than Crucible, doesn't die to your own Deed, and Crucible/Factory are your only artifacts in the deck. The mere presence of Life in the deck also means I never have to worry about keeping my kill conditions alive.

I'm going to test Loam a lot more. I like it in this deck just because it means I have absolutely no permanents that die to a Pernicious Deed.

This is an awesome deck, though. Congrats on continuing to evolve an archetype a lot of us thought dead.

Complete_Jank

08-27-2006, 01:44 AM

1. That's awful logic, because it doesn't change the fact that you're going to draw a random card. Life can also dredge cards off the top after a Brainstorm, can be dredged -with- a Brainstorm or a Standstill draw, and Life also allows you to dredge lands in when you don't get enough mana to get your board position set up. So if anything, Life's presence -increases- your chance of drawing business spells over Crucible.

2. That's terrific logic, very true, and a very good point.

3. Life is also lot harder to get rid of than Crucible, doesn't die to your own Deed, and Crucible/Factory are your only artifacts in the deck. The mere presence of Life in the deck also means I never have to worry about keeping my kill conditions alive.

I'm going to test Loam a lot more. I like it in this deck just because it means I have absolutely no permanents that die to a Pernicious Deed.

This is an awesome deck, though. Congrats on continuing to evolve an archetype a lot of us thought dead.

Wow, your logic is flawed, and because of that so is your argument.

Any Random card is better than no random card, and if a spell is wasted on Crucible, that is one more card that you don't have to worry about.

Play test it as much as you like, and you'll find the same thing, but I am trying to save you some time.

By the way, it is nice to be here, hi all!

Tacosnape

08-27-2006, 03:25 AM

Wow, your logic is flawed, and because of that so is your argument.

Any Random card is better than no random card, and if a spell is wasted on Crucible, that is one more card that you don't have to worry about.

...

That's ridiculous.

Any Random Card is not necessarily better than Life From The Loam, which is the card you get instead of a random card if you decide to Dredge. Life gets back up to three lands, and unlike Crucible, can actually get your manabase from your library into play via dredge in a pinch.

A spell "Wasted" on Crucible could be, say, Tin-Street Hooligan. Which just picks off Crucible as an afterthought. And even if it's, say, a Force of Will or a Duress that does the trick, and that might be one more spell you might need to deal with, if Crucible is THE spell you need to resolve, you don't have it anymore.

If you go by the logic that "A spell to deal with ____ is one less I have to deal with," then Duress is hypothetically one of the worst cards in magic ever. Duress isn't. Duress is good. Duress is good because it gets rid of the best noncreature spell under the circumstances. If you -need- to be able to recur your Mishra's Factories, or Wastelands, or Fetchlands, worse than you need that Counterspell or STP in your hand, You're shit out of luck right here. If you're running Life From The Loam, you aren't.

Crucible, I will concede, has several advantages. Crucible doesn't tie up your mana, which is an incredibly strong argument, beyond the initial three. Crucible also doesn't store your arsenal of lands in your hand, which is a valuable zone often packed with six or seven business spells. However, if you're keeping seven business cards in hand and have a stable manabase, chances are you win anyway. Crucible also doesn't require green. Crucible also lets you flat-out replay stuff, where Loam requires dredging after the first three lands.

Crucible has so many advantages that I'm not even going to make any sort of argument that it's bad or that the slot should -not- be Crucible. I'm merely arguing it -can- be Life and that Life has advantages.

Life's advantages are plenty. First, If between removal, wastelands, discard, and countermagic, your opponent manages to keep the 7 lands in the deck from killing you and manages to keep two Crucibles off the board, you lose. This is harder for them to do than it sounds, admitted. But with Life you gain the security that without graveyard hate (which would hurt Crucible also), you aren't going to run out of kill conditions. Ever.

Life also, again, can roll you into more lands early if need be. Life can't be circumvented with Duress or Force. Life can't be Disenchanted, swept with your own deed, or killed by anything short of a Tormod's Crypt or a Withered Wretch. Life also fills your hand up against Hymn to Tourach.

I will keep the slot as Life in my deck. Flame away.:laugh:

Complete_Jank

08-28-2006, 11:22 AM

...
A spell "Wasted" on Crucible could be, say, Tin-Street Hooligan. Which just picks off Crucible as an afterthought.

Wow, if they play that card, you are already winning.

Crucible has so many advantages that I'm not even going to make any sort of argument that it's bad or that the slot should -not- be Crucible. I'm merely arguing it -can- be Life and that Life has advantages.

I agree with this comment, but once again Crucible is better in every fashion.

Life also, again, can roll you into more lands early if need be. Life can't be circumvented with Duress or Force. Life can't be Disenchanted, swept with your own deed, or killed by anything short of a Tormod's Crypt or a Withered Wretch. Life also fills your hand up against Hymn to Tourach.

Duress if it targets Life actually kills three cards now that is just rediculous.

Also, How does life work if you lose your green mana? It doesn't, so a timely wasteland or lucky multiples combined with maybe a port or two shuts you down. And once all your Green mana is in the grave you're done, but crucible keeps rolling along winning games.

I will keep the slot as Life in my deck. Flame away.:laugh:

Ok, keep it in your deck, I like knowing that there are people who play cards that are bad in a deck. It makes me feel better about the bad cards I play.

Phantom

08-28-2006, 11:57 AM

Wow, if they play that card, you are already winning.

Goblins play it. You know, the best deck in the format? You can't tell me that Landstill has an autowin vs. Goblins.

I agree with this comment, but once again Crucible is better in every fashion.

Please don't overstate things. LFTL doesn't die to your Deed and comes right back for a counterspell. Not saying it's better, but it's certainly better in certain ways.

Duress if it targets Life actually kills three cards now that is just rediculous.

No, what you just said is rediculous. You dredge Life back on your next turn. No one would ever hit a Life with Duress for that very reason. Hitting a Crucible with Duress on the other hand is very playable.

Complete_Jank

08-28-2006, 01:20 PM

Goblins play it. You know, the best deck in the format? You can't tell me that Landstill has an autowin vs. Goblins..

Some version do, but there are better cards that they should be running over that, not to mention you can either counter it, stifle it, or not care about it if you have another, or already have large mana base.

Please don't overstate things. LFTL doesn't die to your Deed and comes right back for a counterspell. Not saying it's better, but it's certainly better in certain ways..

What is stronger? Crucible. Thinning your deck every turn with out having to pay mana or losing threat cards. Even with Life if you use cycling lands, you have to spend even more mana to draw. Life has it's uses, however, they aren't maximized in this deck, however crucible is. Countering a Life is almost pointless BTW, unless you win next turn.

No, what you just said is rediculous. You dredge Life back on your next turn. No one would ever hit a Life with Duress for that very reason. Hitting a Crucible with Duress on the other hand is very playable.

If I was playing against Landstill with Life and I Duressed and saw no answer for my board or current deck, I would take Life, just on the sole fact that you have to waste one draw to get it back and still have no answer for my threats.

I like Life in Tog, it is very good in that deck and a few others. It does things that Crucible could never hope to do, and thus it is better there.

In this deck, we will just disagree, and I will be right.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-28-2006, 04:02 PM

Wow, if they play that card, you are already winning.

The fact that Machinus ran said card and beat a number of opponents at the second Duel for Duals would tend to discredit this theory.

Zilla

08-28-2006, 07:25 PM

Some version do, but there are better cards that they should be running over that, not to mention you can either counter it, stifle it, or not care about it if you have another, or already have large mana base.
I'm not really invested in the Crucible vs. LftL argument, but I wanted to point out that the "X card is irrellevant because I can counterspell it" argument is fallacy and should be avoided.

Incidentally, for what it does, Tin-Street Hooligan is in fact the best option for a Goblins deck. If I'm specifically looking for answers to, say, Pithing Needle, Sword of Fire and Ice, Nev's Disk, Engineered Explosives, Jitte(!), etc., I'm going to run Hooligans because they're better at the job than the other Goblin options, and they're better than the non-Goblin options because they're Goblins. This is pretty off-topic though so I'll leave it at that.

Welcome to The Source.

Complete_Jank

09-01-2006, 12:25 AM

The fact that Machinus ran said card and beat a number of opponents at the second Duel for Duals would tend to discredit this theory.

If they are playing that card against you, then they are not playing a card that workd well against Landstill

Also, stating I can counter the card with a real counter or counter the triggered ability when 25% of the deck can deal with the card, not to mention that if you let it resolve it wouldn't be horrible, and may yield a false sense of security that no counter or stifle is in hand.

Tacosnape

09-01-2006, 02:00 AM

If they are playing that card against you, then they are not playing a card that workd well against Landstill

I really don't know why I'm even continuing to argue a point against complete illogic, but I'll just go on record to say that Phantom's much smarter than me so I point my finger at all of his arguments.

As for Tin-Street Hooligan not working well against Landstill, you're out of your tree.

Tin-Street Hooligan does three things.

1. It's a threat. Landstill can only deal with so many of these. Goblins runs more than it can cope with often

2. It kills your Crucible of Worlds, which means you can't fix your manabase against Wasteland and, if the Goblin build is running it, Port. The other Tin-Street packing deck, Survival, will out-do you with Genesis recursion if you can't recur your lands in any way, especially since your build has absolutely no way in all of the 75 cards to get a Genesis out of your opponent's graveyard.

3. It can kill a Factory that you blocked with post-combat.

If you run Life over Crucible, it only does 1 and 3.

The more I play with Life, the more I'm convinced it actually is the better choice over Crucible here. The -only- time I prefer Crucible is against decks where Crucible/Wasteland is a shutdown. Life does three things that are irreplacable to me. It ensures that my threats will come back, time and time and time again. It dredges bad Brainstorm cards off the top of my library when I can't reshuffle. And it gives me a very strong, solid out card against discard and hand disruption. With Life, I've been constantly defeating black-based aggro-disruption decks, including Deadguy Ale and Red Death, almost 2 out of 3 games. I'm pleased with these results for any control deck.

As for not having the green, it's pretty easy. If you're facing land destruction in any shape or form, you'll know pretty soon, so just sit on a fetchland. I never have problems keeping the green, but then, I run 6 fetches instead of 4. So that could be more build specific.

matxer

09-01-2006, 04:54 AM

I have 2 questions concerning the 4c Landstill deck who made T8 at World:

Why is the only basic land a plain rather than an island ? Is it vs blood moon ?

How do u sideboard vs Goblin ? I guess the 8 cards to side in are 4 Engineered Plagues and 4 Blue Elemental Blast. But what cards to side out ?
Stifle is useful vs Wasteland and the triggered effect of matron and their friend.
Disenchant can be useful vs bad moon or other nasty artefacts / enchantments Goblin may side in.
Fact of Fiction: slow, so out: 3 slots
Pernicious deed: great but slow and replaced by engineered plague: 4 slots
Is this correct ? What is the 8th slot ?

Elmi

09-01-2006, 10:14 AM

Hi (first post)!
I think Standstill is the first card to remove against gobbos because of vial/lackey and the need to answer to their fast threats.

I wouldn't remove deed, this card seems to be there to improve this matchup with thresh mainly.

Maybe removing one or some counterspells, since you won't have that much draw but many mass removal.

Complete_Jank

09-01-2006, 02:29 PM

I really don't know why I'm even continuing to argue a point against complete illogic, but I'll just go on record to say that Phantom's much smarter than me so I point my finger at all of his arguments.

As for Tin-Street Hooligan not working well against Landstill, you're out of your tree.

Tin-Street Hooligan does three things.

1. It's a threat. Landstill can only deal with so many of these. Goblins runs more than it can cope with often

2. It kills your Crucible of Worlds, which means you can't fix your manabase against Wasteland and, if the Goblin build is running it, Port. The other Tin-Street packing deck, Survival, will out-do you with Genesis recursion if you can't recur your lands in any way, especially since your build has absolutely no way in all of the 75 cards to get a Genesis out of your opponent's graveyard.

3. It can kill a Factory that you blocked with post-combat.

If you run Life over Crucible, it only does 1 and 3.

The more I play with Life, the more I'm convinced it actually is the better choice over Crucible here. The -only- time I prefer Crucible is against decks where Crucible/Wasteland is a shutdown. Life does three things that are irreplacable to me. It ensures that my threats will come back, time and time and time again. It dredges bad Brainstorm cards off the top of my library when I can't reshuffle. And it gives me a very strong, solid out card against discard and hand disruption. With Life, I've been constantly defeating black-based aggro-disruption decks, including Deadguy Ale and Red Death, almost 2 out of 3 games. I'm pleased with these results for any control deck.

As for not having the green, it's pretty easy. If you're facing land destruction in any shape or form, you'll know pretty soon, so just sit on a fetchland. I never have problems keeping the green, but then, I run 6 fetches instead of 4. So that could be more build specific.

Thanks for your reply

Let me say this, and please read closely as I'll reveal the secret in what I type.

1st off Tin-Street Hooligan is a good card for Goblins, but it isn't that good for the match up against 4c Landstill.

Of the 3 things you stated, number 3 was the only real issue, but even then a goblin deck that has X cards in hand and at least two colored mana untapped and attacks brings forth questions in a player's head. Not to mention Goblins could kill the Factory before I block with Gempalm.

The threat argument shouldn't be considered because if it isn't a Tin-Street Hooligan, it is a much worse threat wouldn't you agree.

Now to the argument of Crucible vs. Life.
Crucible is not an integral part of the deck. It works well, but isn't really needed. As for Life, in the goblin match up it would be much worse than Crucible, as you would be wasting your draws and mana when you need answers to their threats.

Goblin Snowman

09-01-2006, 05:25 PM

As much as I love LftL, I'm tempted to say Crucible is the better option in this deck, based on it not taking your draws, dispite it being more likely to die. This could be my inexpierience with deck.

Benie Bederios

09-01-2006, 05:47 PM

Crucible of Worlds is far better than Life from the Loam, because

1 The draw engine of the deck doesn't work well with LftL

2. The manabase is already pushed to the limit so far, it can't support Cycle lands

3. The deck can't abuse the graveyard as much as other decks playing LftL.

Fuzzy-lama

09-08-2006, 10:03 AM

I think that Complete Jank is right about Crucible of Worlds. It cost only 3 generic mana which you pay only once mainly from Wastelands and other generic mana producers. You can leave mana to activate Nantuko Monastery in this case. When you are playing with LftL it's not often to have 2 green sources early, and green source of mana is always Tropical Island your blue mana source (same about Deed and LftL). Also argument about paying 1G every time when you are using lftl is i think clear and you can't afford that especially against goblins. I know that I can take 3 land from LftL but when i'am playing around one Wasteland or Fetch CoW is much better solution.

Nice deck i must say. I'm looking forward to read a primer.

How do u sideboard vs Goblin ? I guess the 8 cards to side in are 4 Engineered Plagues and 4 Blue Elemental Blast. But what cards to side out ?
Stifle is useful vs Wasteland and the triggered effect of matron and their friend.
Disenchant can be useful vs bad moon or other nasty artefacts / enchantments Goblin may side in.
Fact of Fiction: slow, so out: 3 slots
Pernicious deed: great but slow and replaced by engineered plague: 4 slots
Is this correct ? What is the 8th slot ?

Maybe someone will add something too this. I'am also confused about what to side out.

If something is not written clearly I appologise but it's long a go when i had a last chance to use english.

Boogy_Boy

09-08-2006, 05:53 PM

Seriously, I don't see what all this LftL vs crucible fuss is about.

Landstill have problem with solidarity and, to a certain extent, goblins. How does either LftL or crucible help against either of these matchups?... No. Not much.

Also, what deck are you going to tuse wasteland on? The only deck that has some remote relevence is Gro, and wasteland isn't even the key in that matchup. Why, oh why do people still use it?..

I've been tinkering with stifle, and I think it should be looked at again. I don't see why people dropped it.

Whit3 Ghost

09-08-2006, 08:00 PM

Crucible Waste makes people scoop. Trust me on this, screwing people's manabases and forcing them to fetch basics while you keep them off of colors is amazing. It's an important piece of disruption in a deck that doesn't have much to begin with. It adds to the deck's plan of assault, and is flat out huge against Gro, if(and most likely when) they start stalling out of creatures.

Fuzzy-lama

09-09-2006, 04:04 AM

Curucible also recovers your manabase when your opponent destroys your lands. It is usefull, and in late game you can develop fast 1 drop land for a turn which really helps keep control on the board.

In this particulary deck using wastelands has own role also against vial goblins Rishadan Ports, which can stop you from blocking with Mishra's/Nantuko Monastery - during the game or even when you hide yourself behind standstill. I think as Whit3 Ghost say, we shouldn't also underestimate opportunities to screw our opponent.

I've been tinkering with stifle, and I think it should be looked at again. I don't see why people dropped it.

I have seen stifle in this deck so people not dropped it ;)

diffy

09-17-2006, 06:32 AM

Hey People,

After some testing, I decided to tweak my enlightened Landstill List a little further and I want to hear your comments on my decisions:

The Decklist:

Maindeck (61 Cards)

//Lands (24)
4 Tundra
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra´s Factory
1 Faerie Concalve
1 Seat of the Synode
4 Wasteland

//Creatures (2)
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Exalted Angel

//Permission (11)
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Rune Snag

//Draw (8)
1 Fact or Fiction
3 Standstill
4 Brainstorm

//Removal (6)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God

//Toolbox (4 Targets)
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Pithing Needle
1 Moat
1 Humility

//Other
3 Stifle (formerly 1 seal of cleansing, 1 fact or fiction and 1 decree of justice)

Sideboard (15 cards)

SB: 1 Stabilizer
SB: 1 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1 Rule of Law
SB: 1 Mana Maze
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Tormod´s Crypt
SB: 1 Phyrexian Furnace
SB: 1 Wrath of God
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Divert
SB: 2 Misdirection
SB: 1 Sacred Ground

Possible changes:

Mainboard

-3 Stifle
+3 Meddling Mage

Sideboard:

-1 Rule of Law
-1 Mana Maze

+1 Meddling Mage / Stifle
+1 ?

I don’t really know which is better: Meddling Mage or Stifle. Both have applications outside of the combo matchup (meddling mage being more versatile here but stifle is slightly better in the combo matchup because it can’t be hated (creature hate and bounce>meddling mage ^^)).

I think that if the stifles or meddling mages stick in my list, that the other sideboard combo hate can be replaced.

I’ve cut fact and decree because they where too slow, and seal because there was very little that I wanted to disenchant preboard, which I couldn’t just needle.

The other debatable slot is 4 rune snag, 3 counterspell over 4 manaleak, 3 counterspell. I don’t really know which is better, but I think that with only 8 blue sources, the double blue is too scarce on turn 2 to play more than 3 counterspells… I’ve come way to often across the situation not to be able to counter *fit whatever legacy threat in here* on turn 2 only because I didn’t have the freaking double blue mana 

What do you think?

Thx for your comments

Boogy_Boy

09-19-2006, 05:25 PM

@Der_imaginäre_Freund

With both Wasteland and Mishra's Factory, ofcoures you are not getting UU second turn.

--------------------------
@Crucible.

Crucible Waste makes people scoop. Trust me on this, screwing people's manabases and forcing them to fetch basics while you keep them off of colors is amazing.

IMO, people scoop to you stabilising rather than you screwing their mana base. Against Goblin/Solidarity the Crucible-Wasteland lock is out of question.

Against Gro, would they scoop if they have 2 Mongoose and you waste away all their land? Ok, so you may argue that you keep them off counterspell mana, so that you can wrath. Well, if you can get a crucible to stick, chances are, they don't even have FoW in hand.

Curucible also recovers your manabase when your opponent destroys your lands.

Which, I think is irrelevant. Crucible just lest you bring back lands that are destroyed. It doesn't bring back the land drop they destroyed. It doesn't let you hit the 4 wrath mana goblins deny from your fourth turn. It doesn't let you recover from your relatively low land count. You will still be spending counterspells countering Sink Hole. If not, that land isn't relevant in the first place.

Whit3 Ghost

09-19-2006, 06:31 PM

Crucible and Waste is an important part of the deck. I've been on the wrong side of it too many times. Those more skilled with the deck can explain it better than I. Recurring Wastes and Manlands is a very important part of the deck. Being able to consistantly kill Gese and stall Bears is really nice.

rsaunder

09-20-2006, 05:17 PM

Crucible+waste is not the only thing crucible is good for in the deck.

As Whit3_Ghost said, recurring manlands can be the deciding factor in a goblins game after the initial sweep. Against threshold, a resolved crucible is essentially game, as you have uncounterable chump (and possibly friggin' big) blockers, as well as the ability to completely and utterly wreck thier manabase for the rest of the game. Against deadguy, a resolved and unanswered crucible can be the turning point of a losing battle. Crucible makes random aggro overextend, having to get past recurring factories. Crucible also makes sure you never miss a land drop with flooded strand, and keep a 4+ card hand, by replaying land and bluffing an asston of countermagic.

The arguement that crucible is bad against solidarity is valid, but rediculous. Almost the entire deck is bad against solidarity. People just need to admit this and move on. A hardcore SB (8-10) cards can change that, but the mainboard will never have game against solidarity. Against other combo, though, recurring wastelands can be game deciding.

Crucible is one of the strongest cards in modern landstill.

diffy

09-29-2006, 04:51 AM

Hey,

After some testing against Faerie Stompy, I found that the sideboard was missing something... some anti Faerie Stompy tech. Allthough the maindeck is quite strong allready against the monoU, I want to add some anti-chalice tech... Any ideas? My first thought was 1 SB chalice as tutor target which is versatile and a great addition for this MU as well as for others.

Thanks for Your replies

Tao

09-29-2006, 05:54 AM

Elf_Ascetic

09-29-2006, 07:13 AM

Lukas Preuss

09-29-2006, 08:09 AM

I want to add some anti-chalice tech... Any ideas? My first thought was [...] chalice

This does not make any sence.

rsaunder

09-29-2006, 02:56 PM

What do they set it at that bothers you so much?

diffy

09-30-2006, 05:09 AM

What do they set it at that bothers you so much?

A chalice set at 1 before or after a threat would be serious trouble... and a must counter in most of the situations.

WHY would you board in Chalice of the Void against Faerie Stompy?

A chalice set at 0 would get me rid of theirs in a proactive way... and set at 1 would bother grow and soidarity kinda lot too which valorises it in my eyes because broad application range>specialization...

Rivs

09-30-2006, 05:21 AM

diffy

09-30-2006, 01:17 PM

Chalice counters spells, it doesn't prevent them from playing them.

If it counters spells it looks at their casting cost while on the stack hence to counter a chalice for 1 you have to have yours set at 2.

I don't think chalice @ 0 works the way you think it does, although i could obv be wrong.

I spoke with a judge about this: you 're right.

@all

Hey,

I played some minor local tournament today and am kind of depressed: I piloted Enlightened- Landstill (List as Following) and either god hates me or the list I’ve been working on for so long now is one of the weakest decks I’ve ever held in hand… Not that I only faced bad matchups, au contraire I only faced therotically good matchups but somehow the deck never worked out…

The Decklist:

Maindeck (61 Cards)

//Lands (24)
4 Tundra
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra´s Factory
1 Faerie Concalve
1 Seat of the Synode
4 Wasteland

//Creatures (2)
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Exalted Angel

//Permission (11)
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Leak

//Draw (8)
1 Fact or Fiction
3 Standstill
4 Brainstorm

//Removal (6)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God

//Toolbox (4 Targets)
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Pithing Needle
1 Moat
1 Humility

//Other (6)
3 Meddling Mage

Sideboard (15 cards)

SB: 1 Stabilizer
SB: 1 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Tormod´s Crypt
SB: 1 Phyrexian Furnace
SB: 1 Wrath of God
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Divert
SB: 2 Misdirection
SB: 1 Sacred Ground

Round 1 vs. Angel Stompy

I owned him game one with Moat and endless Meddling Mages… swords and a Faerie Conclave sealed the deal…
But then game 2 everything got worse, savage beatings and a Cursed Scroll killed me pretty quickly and don’t drawing tutors clearly OWNS this deck…
We decided to draw because time was called when we were starting to shuffle up for game 3.

0-0-1

Round 2 vs Angel Stompy AGAIN

Game one was pretty similar to the first game in the first round: total ownage, but like in the first round, game 2 became a lot worse and I eventually lost to an Armageddon.
Game 3 went time out again.

0-0-2

Round 3 vs Goblins

A sight of relief because I thought that this would be the some sort of auto-win (as it normally should be)… game 1 was pretty standard: Moat and needle on siege gang commander won in something that seemed like endless long minutes.
In game 2 the goblin player showed off the full power of his deck with a turn3 kill me not drawing anything.
Game 3 was frustrating: he had the huts draws and raped my Mana base… no other comments needed.

0-1-2

Round 4 –BYE-

1-1-2

For sure, this was one of the most frustrating days in my magic career… although I may have made serious play mistakes (and I surely have because I got something like 6 hours of sleep in the night before :-( ) but I strongly recommend NOT to pilot this deck any more… I’ll try to come up with a List that can compete in my meta later, when I’ve overcome my frustration :-), maybe you people could help me… my meta is pretty random and at this tourney 2 Angel Stompy (1 of them will switch to Aluren), 1 Goblins, 1 RBG Aggro, 1 3C Slide (will switch to IGGY pop), 1 Solidarity, 1 UGw Grow and 1 Affinity were present.
After discussing with the judge (cool guy) I came up with the idea of maybe playing WG slide control or some weird RGW aggro, Tog or some Madness+***** variant… but this is off-topic so back to topic again:

THIS DECK NEEDS SUCH A LOT OF EMPROVMENT… so let’s start really working on it… or we can burry this deck.

Conclusions taken:

-Meddling Mages are kind of Blah and dissynergetic
-Moat rocks, Humility sucks (in my meta)
-Disenchant sucks :(

slobad23

09-30-2006, 04:36 PM

2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
2 Mana Leak
4 Standstill
3 Stifle
1 Decree of Justice
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Akroma's Vengeance
2 Eternal Dragon
2 Pulse of the Fields
3 Wrath of God

Lands (22):
2 Faerie Conclave
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Plains
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland

SideBoard:
1 Arcane Laboratory
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Circle of Protection: Red
3 Disenchant
3 Meddling Mage
1 Rule of Law
2 Tormod's Crypt

On http://morphling.de you will see that in the last few legacy tournament listed, this build has doing very well. The first thing a friend mentioned when i showed it to him was "3 brainstorms!!?!?!". I was the same but i guess sometimes you just need to make room for other cards. looking through it, the only thing i would want to take out would be pulse of the fields. In testing though, Pulse has bought me enough time to win games i would not have won otherwise... though another card with double white can be a pain when you tundra's are getting wasted.

I didnt see this list anywhere on here and thought i would throw it in so people could see what has been doing well in germany.

Oathmaster

10-01-2006, 02:41 PM

Hello,

Sometimes you have to make room for a important card but dropping a brainstorm I think is crucial.

I am a huge fan of 61 cards so I would just bump the decklist from 60 cards maindeck to 61 and add 1 brainstorm in for the 61st card.

Besides that the decklist is very solid and is very similar to a build that I have been playing since June. I have very good turnouts when playing this deck but you need patience to play this deck right.

Complete_Jank

12-11-2006, 11:15 AM

C-Aleric

12-11-2006, 11:55 AM

@ Der_imaginäre_Freund

I can kind of see why you lost your matchups so badly. You run 2x Wrath of Gods as your board sweepers. You don't run any disk's. So, if you don't see a Wrath, you can basically get overwhelmed prettty fast. Especially if they have any removal (swords/Lightning bolt) for you man lands. This leaves you with only counterspells and your tutor box (which loses card adv, and takes a turn in the early game) and just gan get you moat, which won't hit until turn 4 at the earliest, assuming you still have all your lands.

Goblins should just plow through the list you have there. Especially Rw with Disenchant, and Swords post board.

I would think that you'd need to up the wrath/disk count. From reading your list, it generally just seems pretty weak. It's very slow, and the lock down you pose isn't that threatening. 5 man lands may be 1-2 too few as well.

Akroma's Vengence is another card you may want to consider, as slobad23 has in his list.

I really don't think enlightened tutor is the right call in this deck. I think that just sweeping the board, and dropping Standstill is what you should be trying to do. Then you gain card advantage and still have counter backup. Which is what this deck wants. Massive card advantage, and board control via disk/wrath/vengance.

That's my two cents, anyway.

Anarky87

12-11-2006, 01:22 PM

Have you guys thought about updating this deck like the BHWC version that's been T8'ing alot? I know recently I've watched several U/W Landstill vs. U/G/B/W Landstill (Most boring thing ever...) and the latter usually wins a majority of the time. It also seems to be able to handle the meta better than the traditional U/W version.

Citrus-God

12-11-2006, 06:32 PM

Plus with all that metagame tech, that deck is insane. It can also slap the heck out of a ton of decks. I think the reasons for this happen to be Stifles Maindecked, and the Monasteries. I think we should shift this thread towards BHWC Landstill, is it's seeing a lot of play as well.

Oathmaster

01-02-2007, 07:26 AM

Hello,

The following list is a landstill deck that took 6th in Kobe Japan in October. It is pretty much the blue/white version except with fire//ice. I do believe that the major downfall to the deck above is the enlightened tutor toolbox. There is just too much going on in this type of deck to make the tutor work correctly and the environment is fast. Does anyone think that blue/white landstill will be better after planar chaos? It does have the new white drop of honey that may be useful in this deck?

Maindeck:

Artifacts
2 Nevinyrral's Disk

Enchantments
4 Standstill

Instants
2 Absorb
3 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
2 Fact Or Fiction
4 Fire / Ice
4 Force Of Will
4 Swords To Plowshares

Sorceries
2 Akroma's Vengeance
2 Decree Of Justice
3 Wrath Of God

Lands
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plateau
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Island

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Chill
2 Misdirection
2 Pulse Of The Fields
2 Stifle
3 Pyroclasm

Below is also a B/W/G/U landstill deck that took 9th at a star city games duel for duals tournament in October. What do you think of this deck compared to the one above? What road should landstill take in the future legacy format? What changes would be made to the top landstill decklist?

Maindeck:

Artifacts
2 Crucible Of Worlds

Enchantments
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Disenchant
3 Fact Or Fiction
4 Force Of Will
3 Stifle
4 Swords To Plowshares

Lands
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Monastery
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Engineered Plague
3 Sacred Ground
4 Blue Elemental Blast

I personally like the 4 color landstill and think that it is the stronger out of the 2. The thing I am concerned with is the manabase. A lot of nonbasics are in there so you are open to land destruction more easily and a price of progress hurts, if you don't have a counter. I dislike the sideboard though on the 4 color landstill. I would like to see crypts and misdirection in there but maybe that is not possibly. I would also take out the 2 diabolic edicts for 2 wrath of gods if the manabase could handle it. I like the board clearing power of landstill and this deck presently does not have that except for the deeds. I would also bump the list up to 61 cards to fit in the 4th stifle.

What does everyone else think? Lets get this topic deck going again.

Adan

01-02-2007, 05:57 PM

Anyways, I don't understand why it is called "former" DTB in the threadtitle.

UW Landstill is still competitive imo.

But I think you should build it in a other way. Pulse of the Fields wins games against Aggro alone.

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [R] Tundra
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
2 [UL] Faerie Conclave
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [TSP] Island (1)
3 [TSP] Plains (1)

// Creatures
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
3 [9E] Wrath of God
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [SC] Stifle
2 [9E] Mana Leak
3 [7E] Counterspell
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [ON] Akroma's Vengeance
2 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
1 [AT] Nevinyrral's Disk

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [TSP] Disenchant
SB: 2 [7E] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 2 [9E] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [CS] Jotun Grunt

This build won the Bazaar of Wonders-Tournament, taking a Mox Emerald home.
I think UW Landstill just need some fine-settings and it cam be very solid 8but I don't play it since it was never solid in my hands xD ).

I prefer UR Landstill because of it's flexibility. It can use the Burn as board control or as straight-foward burn, so it's more like aggro-control.

diffy

01-05-2007, 06:53 AM

Hey all,

Regarding to the UWbg debate, I can oly say that UW Landstill is alot more consistant... and has a better game against Goblins with 5 basics...
And also I would seriously advice to play the Tutor build because that one is even more consistant and less draw dependant than normal UW.

This is the list I'm currently testing:

---Mainboard--- (60)

--Lands-- (24)

1x Faerie Conclave
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland

4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta

4x Tundra
3x Island
2x Plains
1x Seat of the Synode

--Creatures-- (1)

1x Eternal Dragon

--Permission-- (10)

4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
4x Mana Leak

--Card draw-- (9)

4x Brainstorm
3x Standstill
2x Fact or Fiction

--Removal-- (6)

2x Wrath of God
4x Swords to Plowshaeres

--Tutor Stuff-- (8)

3x Enlightened Tutor

1x Humility
2x Moat
1x Pithing Needle
1x Crucible of Worlds

---Sideboard--- (15)

1x Engineered Explosives -> Gro, random aggro
1x Null Rod -> iggy, salgame, affinity
1x Sacred Ground -> Gro/w, gobos
1x Stabilizer -> 3c Slide
1x CoP Red-> Gobs, Burn
1x CoP Green->*****

4x Meddling Mage -> combo
2x Misdirection -> deadguy, solidarity

3x Jotun Grunt-> LftL decks, Grow

The main gameplan for this deck is to stall early game, stabilize the mana base and than drop a gamebreaking bullet (moat, Humility) and protect it 4teh win...
I think the main discussion should be about why play this or Landstill in general over other control decks (rifter [see thread @tmd], Truffle Shuffle, MonoBorW control, TaoXsUrvival...).

Thanks for input

Complete_Jank

01-05-2007, 01:43 PM

Hello,

The following list is a landstill deck that took 6th in Kobe Japan in October. It is pretty much the blue/white version except with fire//ice. I do believe that the major downfall to the deck above is the enlightened tutor toolbox. There is just too much going on in this type of deck to make the tutor work correctly and the environment is fast. Does anyone think that blue/white landstill will be better after planar chaos? It does have the new white drop of honey that may be useful in this deck?

...

Below is also a B/W/G/U landstill deck that took 9th at a star city games duel for duals tournament in October. What do you think of this deck compared to the one above? What road should landstill take in the future legacy format? What changes would be made to the top landstill decklist?

...

I personally like the 4 color landstill and think that it is the stronger out of the 2. The thing I am concerned with is the manabase. A lot of nonbasics are in there so you are open to land destruction more easily and a price of progress hurts, if you don't have a counter. I dislike the sideboard though on the 4 color landstill. I would like to see crypts and misdirection in there but maybe that is not possibly. I would also take out the 2 diabolic edicts for 2 wrath of gods if the manabase could handle it. I like the board clearing power of landstill and this deck presently does not have that except for the deeds. I would also bump the list up to 61 cards to fit in the 4th stifle.

What does everyone else think? Lets get this topic deck going again.

The Landstill Deck from Kobe doesn't have any way to recur lands. If he casts FoF and has to discard Man-Lands then he is lossing them for good.

It should also be noted that the one you posted that took 9th also took 8th the day prior, and it was in a larger field.

I am supporter of 61 card decks because the % change it has on the overall draw is so little. Running 4 Stifles will roughly increase your draw of it by about 1.6% each draw. Running 4 Stifles in a 61 card deck will give you a 48.3% chance of having one in your opening hand. Chance of drawing 3 stifles in a 60 card deck are 36.9% in your opening hand.

Note these are % chances not odds.
Odds are similar, but not the same.
Odds count down, %'s count up, but you can be fooled by both.

Chance to draw a card In Opening Hand / If on the Draw / After Muligan
4 cards in a 61 card deck = ~48.3% / ~55.7% / ~89.4%
4 cards in a 60 card deck = ~49.2% / ~56.7% / ~91%
3 cards in a 61 card deck = ~36.3% / ~41.8% / ~67%
3 cards in a 60 card deck = ~36.9% / ~42.5% / ~68.2%
2 cards in a 61 card deck = ~24.2% / ~27.9% / ~44.7%
2 cards in a 60 card deck = ~24.6% / ~28.4% / ~45.5%
1 cards in a 61 card deck = ~12.1% / ~13.9% / ~22.3%
1 cards in a 60 card deck = ~12.3% / ~14.2% / ~22.7%

jrp

01-05-2007, 02:10 PM

@Complete Jank:

I thought that when determining the % chance for a card to be in your opening hand it was done using this formula: 1 - (%chance of not having the card), which is carried out as follows:

Assume a 60 card deck, that contains a 4 of (say Stifle for example).

The chance of not drawing a Stifle on your first draw is (Total Cards in Deck - Number of Stifles) divided by Total cards in deck -> (60 - 4)/60 = 56/60

The chance of not drawing a Stifle on your second draw is (59-4)/59 = 55/59

This continues...
3rd draw -> 54/58
4th draw -> 53/57
5th draw -> 52/56
6th draw -> 51/55
7th draw -> 50/54

To calculate the probability of all of these events occuring, multiply the individual probabilities......

(56/60) * (55/59) * ... * (50/54) ~= .601 or 60.1%

Then back to the original formula:

1 - (%chance of not having the card) = 1-.601 = .399 or 39.9%

So, according to my knowledge of the math you have a 39.9% chance of seeing a Stifle in your opening 7 cards, when playing a 60 card deck. It's been awhile since I've done this so I may be mistaken, but this is how I remember it to be done.

JACO

01-05-2007, 03:31 PM

Jander78

01-05-2007, 04:09 PM

Either way, even if Complete Jank's numbers were correct, even though adding an extra card only decreases the chance of drawing a specific card slightly, the fact is that it still decreases the chances of drawing said card, making the deck less consistent. Keeping a deck to the minimum allotted cards makes it more efficient.

Complete_Jank

01-05-2007, 04:28 PM

@JRP, that is the correct way to calculate. The odds posted by Complete Jank are nowhere near accurate.

JACO, we had this same discussion in your dining room and Lucas comfirmed with the same results I had by figuring it out.

I'll simplify it for you, with out the long drawn out method of the calculation.

4 cards in a 60 card deck is 4/60. Wouldn't you agree?

Well, this would be the same as 2/30 or 1/15.

You now can effectively look at your deck as a 15 card deck when trying to draw 1 card of 4. You get to draw 7 cards, one of them is the one card you are looking for. After you have 7 cards draw, you have 8 cards left, so you almost have exactly half the cards, thus just less than 50%.

Either way, even if Complete Jank's numbers were correct, even though adding an extra card only decreases the chance of drawing a specific card slightly, the fact is that it still decreases the chances of drawing said card, making the deck less consistent. Keeping a deck to the minimum allotted cards makes it more efficient.

Yielding ~1.5% on any card to give you an added ~11.5% to see a certain card can be worth it.

If someone really wants 4 cards instead of 3, I first recommend cutting something, and if they can't just add the one card.

I argue the less consistent statement and the more efficient statement. You will actually have a more consistent draw of the particular card, but a slightly less consistent draw on every other card, if this helps the deck to be more efficient then so be it.

I am not saying every deck is more effecient, because goblins is one deck that I wouldn't want to allow to have 59 cards instead of 60.

rsaunder

01-05-2007, 06:44 PM

JACO, we had this same discussion in your dining room and Lucas comfirmed with the same results I had by figuring it out.

I'll simplify it for you, with out the long drawn out method of the calculation.

4 cards in a 60 card deck is 4/60. Wouldn't you agree?

Well, this would be the same as 2/30 or 1/15.

You now can effectively look at your deck as a 15 card deck when trying to draw 1 card of 4. You get to draw 7 cards, one of them is the one card you are looking for. After you have 7 cards draw, you have 8 cards left, so you almost have exactly half the cards, thus just less than 50%.
This equation comes directly from my statistics textbook (a reliable source, wouldn't you agree?)

"The formula given in Eq. 5 is particularly useful to calculate certain probibilities having to do with card games. For example, we might ask the probability that a certain 13-card hand contains exactly 6 spades. There are M=52 cards, total, and one can model the card shuffling and dealing process by assuming that the 13 card hand represents a sample size of 13 drawn from the 52 cards without replacement from the 52 cards. Let A [subscript6] denote the event of exactly 6 spades. There are a total of 13 spades; so...

P[a(subscript6)]=((13/6)((52-13)/(13-6)))/(52/13)"

So, to find the probability of say, a 4-of in a 60 card deck in your opening grip, replace the 13 (the number of spades, origionally) with the number of the card you are planning on running, 4. Then, replace the 6 spades you needed to draw with 0, thusly finding the chance of not drawing the specified card (then, just subtract the final percentage from 100%, and you'll have your indicator). Replace the 52 with 60, i.e., the number of cards in the deck, and the 13 subtracted from it with 7, the number of cards from the opening hand. Then, for the next set in the equation, the denominator, sub in 60 and 7, for the size of the deck and the size of one's hand. Then, to factor in the multiple draws, take the factorial of each now finished part in the equation. It'll end up looking something like this:

=(56!/(49!7!))/(60!/(7!53!))

There. Another way to go about it.

Or, you could listen to jrp who, although he went about it differently, also would end up with similar numbers. In fact, He's more likely right than I, as his way made more overall sense, so I'd go with his way.

My head a-splode.

EDIT: After looking back over that mess, I'm not 100% on it. I think I got confised in there, might be right, might not. I do know, however, that jrp's numbers are accurate, though, as they are in fact the commonly agreed upon numbers of Statistics majors I have known ot have bothered doing all of this out.

Complete_Jank

01-05-2007, 07:15 PM

This equation comes directly from my statistics textbook (a reliable source, wouldn't you agree?)

Actually no. I've been finding flaws in textbooks since 1st grade, Kindergarden and Preschool taught me how to find them.

I also confused and frustrated my math teachers because I could solve problems with logical steps that contradicted books and theorems that did not exist.

I will admit I have a backwards way of thinking about most things, and sometimes I am wrong because of it, but I'm pretty sure this is not one of those times.

"The formula given in Eq. 5 is particularly useful to calculate certain probibilities having to do with card games. For example, we might ask the probability that a certain 13-card hand contains exactly 6 spades. There are M=52 cards, total, and one can model the card shuffling and dealing process by assuming that the 13 card hand represents a sample size of 13 drawn from the 52 cards without replacement from the 52 cards. Let A [subscript6] denote the event of exactly 6 spades. There are a total of 13 spades; so...

P[a(subscript6)]=((13/6)((52-13)/(13-6)))/(52/13)"

So, to find the probability of say, a 4-of in a 60 card deck in your opening grip, replace the 13 (the number of spades, origionally) with the number of the card you are planning on running, 4. Then, replace the 6 spades you needed to draw with 0, thusly finding the chance of not drawing the specified card (then, just subtract the final percentage from 100%, and you'll have your indicator). Replace the 52 with 60, i.e., the number of cards in the deck, and the 13 subtracted from it with 7, the number of cards from the opening hand. Then, for the next set in the equation, the denominator, sub in 60 and 7, for the size of the deck and the size of one's hand. Then, to factor in the multiple draws, take the factorial of each now finished part in the equation. It'll end up looking something like this:

=(56!/(49!7!))/(60!/(7!53!))

There. Another way to go about it.

Or, you could listen to jrp who, although he went about it differently, also would end up with similar numbers. In fact, He's more likely right than I, as his way made more overall sense, so I'd go with his way.

My head a-splode.

EDIT: After looking back over that mess, I'm not 100% on it. I think I got confised in there, might be right, might not. I do know, however, that jrp's numbers are accurate, though, as they are in fact the commonly agreed upon numbers of Statistics majors I have known ot have bothered doing all of this out.

I just tried the first formula and came up with ~7% to draw 1 in a 7 card hand. :confused:

I don't know what you did with the second one, but doesn't look like the same formula. Also, you have to realize we are talking about 1 card in a 7 card hand, and it doesn't matter if you have more than one.

The example you provided talks about 6 cards in a 13 card hand with no more or no less than 6 Spades. Sounds like the wrong formula.

Adan

01-07-2007, 01:08 PM

Aw, this higher maths is driving me crazy!

But what I can say is, you can manage your slots and distribution of your business spells better.

I like the 4Tutor-Build....wish I had all my UW LS stuff back.
The BHWC Landstill IS a crappy build. It runs 10 offcolor Lands, but is 4color. That doesn't fir together. Plus, the Monastery needs 2 colored Mana.
Wrapping up, this deck is very fragile at it's Mana base and can be screwed very easily.
Imo it's just laid out to beat every Grow.dec.
But it would lose to Goblins, LftL-Decks or LS Mirror.

And that doesn't sound good to me.

But I'm a littlebit disappointed that there's no UR landstill in the American Meta. It became my pet deck and it was always reliable.
I only lost to goblins though I have a well-balanced matchup. But I just recently noticed that Pyroclasm isn't that big against Goblins and that additional Hydroblasts beside the Blue Elemental Blasts are superior to Pyroclasm.

So, I think I should post a list of UR landstill, to fuel this discussion about the landstill archetype:

My list, based on the one which placed 3rd in the GP Barcelona SE:

// Lands
2 [UL] Faerie Conclave
2 [TSP] Island (1)
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Mountain (1)
4 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Spells
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [AT] Nevinyrral's Disk
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [GP] Electrolyze
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [AT] Lightning Bolt
2 [ON] Slice and Dice
3 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [WL] Phyrexian Furnace
SB: 4 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast

Not this build is a littlebit irregular. Maybe the Academy Ruin looks strange.
PLUS, there seems to be no CA-Spell that draws a lot of cards like Thirst or FoF.
But I can explain them:

Academy Ruins: It protects Crucible. And Crucible protects Academy Ruins.
Plus, it brings back Crucibles I had to blow up with Nevin's Disk and it can create a lock with Nevin's Disk.
My friend played Angel Stompy, be smashed me to 1 Life, and then I blew up Nevin's Disk and dropped Academy Ruin. "Oh no, now he will stall araound and burn me to death", he said and scooped.

Errr, yeah, next choices:

Slice and Dice: They are good against Thresh and against Rift. The cards I fear the most in these Matchups are Nimble Mongeese and Decree of Justice.

And Slice and Dice often saved my ass against Rifter.

Me: I drop Standstill
Opp: Ok, i'm gonna cycle my Decree for...8 Soldiers
Me: Fuck...but...CYCLE SLICE! BAM!

And here is the new inclusion, Electrolyze.

it gives the deck more speed and damage-potential. It's THE mix betreen Fire/ice I ever wanted in thsi deck.
It can kill 2 creatures and then cantrips. THAT's cardadvantage.
This cardadvantage is similar to the cardadvantage a Ancestral Recall generates. So CA doesn't need to be pure carddraw imo.

JACO

01-07-2007, 02:51 PM

JACO, we had this same discussion in your dining room and Lucas comfirmed with the same results I had by figuring it out.

I'll simplify it for you, with out the long drawn out method of the calculation.

4 cards in a 60 card deck is 4/60. Wouldn't you agree? Well, this would be the same as 2/30 or 1/15.

You now can effectively look at your deck as a 15 card deck when trying to draw 1 card of 4. You get to draw 7 cards, one of them is the one card you are looking for. After you have 7 cards draw, you have 8 cards left, so you almost have exactly half the cards, thus just less than 50%.
NO. NO. NO. This is not how you figure out probability. You and Lucas were wrong in my dining room, and you're still wrong. Here is an example of the correct formula for what you're trying to figure out (odds of seeing a card in opening hand):
1) Odds of a 4 of in 7 cards (on the play) = 1 - [(56/60)*(55/59)*(54/58)*(53/57)*(52/56)*(51/55)*(50/54)] = 0.399499626 = roughly 39.95%
2) Odds of a 4 of in 8 cards (on the draw) = 1 - [(56/60)*(55/59)*(54/58)*(53/57)*(52/56)*(51/55)*(50/54)*(49/53)] = 0.444820409 = roughly 44.48%
3) Odds of a 3 of in 7 cards (on the play) = 1 - [(57/60)*(56/59)*(55/58)*(54/57)*(53/56)*(52/55)*(51/54)] = 0.315429573 = roughly 31.54%
4) Odds of a 3 of in 7 cards (on the play) = 1 - [(57/60)*(56/59)*(55/58)*(54/57)*(53/56)*(52/55)*(51/54)*(50/53)] = 0.354178843 = roughly 35.42%

Before you go arguing about something you clearly have no idea about, just do some actual reading on probability (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability) and/or statistics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics). Many brilliant minds have already done tons of research and theorizing so you don't have to use a flawed method of calculation. When you can comprehend that, then just create a basic Microsoft Excel spreadsheet to do the math for you. Rather than clutter up this thread, you can send me a PM if you feel the need to argue any further, which I doubt.

I like the 4Tutor-Build....wish I had all my UW LS stuff back.
The BHWC Landstill IS a crappy build. It runs 10 offcolor Lands, but is 4color. That doesn't fir together. Plus, the Monastery needs 2 colored Mana.
Wrapping up, this deck is very fragile at it's Mana base and can be screwed very easily.
Imo it's just laid out to beat every Grow.dec.
But it would lose to Goblins, LftL-Decks or LS Mirror.

And that doesn't sound good to me.

But I'm a littlebit disappointed that there's no UR landstill in the American Meta.I'm not sure if the above qualifies as the worst post in this thread, but it's got to be in contention. BHWC Landstill is the king, and has the results to back it up when piloted by competent players. It's obvious you've never played the deck with any regularity, and don't realize how good Nantuko Monastery is. The reason there's no UR Landstill in the Amercian meta is because Blue-Red Landstill variants are garbage. Swords to Plowshares is better removal than anything Red has to offer, and cards like Electrolyze, Slice and Dice, Nevinyrral's Disk, Barbarian Ring, Faerie Conclave, and Disrupting Shoal are all pretty weak compared to other available options. Sure, if your opponent manages to do NOTHING during the first 4 turns of the game, those cards might be good in a specific situation (like if you're playing against Goblins every round, and every game your opponent manages to do nothing for the first 3 turns, and doesn't play any land disruption). You aren't even playing the card Counterspell for Allah's sake, which is one of the best tools for allowing you to get to the midgame (which is what Landstill revolves around). I don't feel the need to comment further, because it would be pointless. A blind man can't be taught to see.

rsaunder

01-07-2007, 03:04 PM

I just tried the first formula and came up with ~7% to draw 1 in a 7 card hand. :confused:

I don't know what you did with the second one, but doesn't look like the same formula. Also, you have to realize we are talking about 1 card in a 7 card hand, and it doesn't matter if you have more than one.

The example you provided talks about 6 cards in a 13 card hand with no more or no less than 6 Spades. Sounds like the wrong formula.Like I edited in, I think I sort of lost it about half way through. The example would still hold, though, if I had translated it properly:rolleyes:

Oathmaster

01-07-2007, 06:20 PM

Hello,

To the couple people posting back and forth about the correct prob and stat formula. Since both of you know each other, please discuss it between yourself or in a different thread specific for determining the correct formula? I think everyone now has the point behind what was trying to be brought across between the difference of 60 cards and 61 cards.

To Adan, I have to give you complements for building your own deck. UR landstill sounds interesting but I do feel that it will just not work in the states. The meta game would just not be feasible to play that deck but I like the creativity behind it.

I do have to agree about the unstable manabase behind 4 color landstill but I don't disagree that it is extrememly more powerful than U/W landstill. The thing I fear with 4 color landstill is the manabase and the amount of non basic lands. A crucible of the worlds/ wasteland would ruin your day. I would like to purpose possibly creating a 3 color landstill deck. What would peoples ideas and thoughts behind this would be? Is this even a logical idea? I think this would still give you the distinct advantages that 4 color landstill has over U/W landstill but does not open you up as much to that crazy mana base. I feel the colors that would go well would be blue/black/green. I know you lose some high power weapons from white but they can be overcome with this color combination. Here are some good replacements:

nantuko monestary: I would replace with treetop village. I would prefer to have the bigger frame but I like trample more than first strike. I also like only one color activation compared to two.

swords to plowshares: I would replace this with innocent blood (possibly). It still only cost one and can hit those pesky annoying "can't be the target of spells and abilities" creatures, like the nimble mongoose.

wrath of god: Give it a month and we will have damnation. I feel that this is the most important card that white was giving to landstill and now it is in black so it is not a lose.

The other cards would be decree of justice and eternal dragon. I sure if I did some research I could find cards to go into their slots.

I presently don't have a deck in mind but am trying to change my 4 color landstill deck into 3 color landstill. It been taking me awhile because landstill is not my current priority in magic. It is developing my other two decks in legacy because I feel that one of them will be stronger to take to Columbus in May.

Can't wait to here peoples thoughts.

Meekrab

01-07-2007, 07:21 PM

Complete_Jank

01-07-2007, 10:45 PM

Aw, this higher maths is driving me crazy!

The BHWC Landstill IS a crappy build.

Interesting, I'm with JACO on this one. BHWC is about the best version of Landstill to date, and we went through 2-3 years of different Landstill decks as the number one type of deck in our meta.

Like I edited in, I think I sort of lost it about half way through. The example would still hold, though, if I had translated it properly:rolleyes:

No worries, I thought I knew what formula you were getting at after I calculated the 7%.

@JACO - If I am wrong, I'll continue to believe I am wrong, and it won't change the outcome of my draws. BTW, I too have an excel spread sheet that proves what I say.

...

I would like to purpose possibly creating a 3 color landstill deck.

...

Can't wait to here peoples thoughts.

I have a G/B/U Landstill deck that was created to abuse Eternal Witness when it was printed. Recurring Standstill and Pernacious Deed is strong. Also ran Baloth.

The 3 color doesn't save you much better against wasteland than what the 4 color version suffers.

Adan

01-08-2007, 09:49 AM

Ok, then let's move back to the school to the...tenth class.

Didn't you learned to write arguments when you got a statement?

"UR Landstill variants are garbage". And now give me some reasons.

Swords to Plowshares is superior to Burn if you REALLY need serious removal.
But I don't think your Meta is full of fat creatures Lightning Bolt can't handle.
Anyways, you post tells me that you have absolutley NO idea of UR landstill.

By the way, I must mention that this is NOT my idea, but this deck should have been introduced to you by kimberley.

At the beginning Ur landstill ran Fact or Fiction. But FoF was often used just as a tutor to find a burnspell to kill. And having Counterspell in a Fact ist'n that cool either.
So the Counterspells were replaced by Disrupting Shoal.
And it was better. Sure it generates some Carddisadvantge, but it can counter 1st Turn Aether Vial even though you don't have a FoW and it's good when you WANT TO resolve 2nd turn Standstill.

Ahh, anyways, I'm confident enough about UR Landstill that I would dare to challenge you in some MWS games.

URABAHN

01-08-2007, 10:43 PM

What about the Black variant? Anyone cooking up some lists with Damnation? Is it wise to play with maindeck discard or would you save it in the board for combo decks?

Adan

01-09-2007, 10:06 AM

Let's wait until Damnation is out, then we can see if the Black Variant can beat some nasty things.

But I would guess it can be good. Sengir Nosferatu is a good finisher.
Damnation is a good sweeper. And there should be some good removal...Diabolic Edict, Smother...Then you can play Duress or maybe Hymn.

Sounds quite interesting imo.

edit:

But you really shouldn't underestimate UR Landstill.

Bane of the Living

01-10-2007, 04:58 PM

Someone should make a thread for Duck Hunt, aka UBG Landstill. Its much different, loads more than the age old arguement of white vs red.

Oathmaster

01-11-2007, 07:22 AM

Hello,

The U/B/G landstill decklist that I have been working is below:

4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
2 Undermine
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Stifle
3 Decree of Pain (will be 3 damnation here soon)
4 Innocent Blood
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Treetop Village
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland

Have not determined a sideboard yet.

What are people's thoughts? Presently right now my 4 color landstill post better results against other decks but the problem is the decree of pain. I started proxing the damnations and the deck seems a lot better, go figure. The problem I have been running into with 4 color landstill is not getting all 4 colors due to wasteland, sinkholes and other land destruction spells.

Complete_Jank

01-11-2007, 10:44 AM

Someone should make a thread for Duck Hunt, aka UBG Landstill. Its much different, loads more than the age old arguement of white vs red.

I did it is in the N&D section.

Zilla

01-11-2007, 07:34 PM

This thread is a mess. If you want to discuss statistics, start a seperate thread for it - it has no place here, and has been discussed ad infinitum before. The pros agree that anything more than 60 cards in a deck is always incorrect. Take that for what it is and move on.

JACO: Dismissing people's posts as "the worst in the thread" and backing that assertion solely with rhetoric is a) inflammatory, b) useless to the conversation. Debate rule number one: attack the ideas, not the person. Treat your fellow posters with respect or don't post.

JACO

01-12-2007, 06:42 PM

JACO: Dismissing people's posts as "the worst in the thread" and backing that assertion solely with rhetoric is a) inflammatory, b) useless to the conversation. Debate rule number one: attack the ideas, not the person. Treat your fellow posters with respect or don't post.
I think I did back up my post with something other than rhetoric.
The reason there's no UR Landstill in the Amercian meta is because Blue-Red Landstill variants are garbage. Swords to Plowshares is better removal than anything Red has to offer, and cards like Electrolyze, Slice and Dice, Nevinyrral's Disk, Barbarian Ring, Faerie Conclave, and Disrupting Shoal are all pretty weak compared to other available options. Sure, if your opponent manages to do NOTHING during the first 4 turns of the game, those cards might be good in a specific situation (like if you're playing against Goblins every round, and every game your opponent manages to do nothing for the first 3 turns, and doesn't play any land disruption). You aren't even playing the card Counterspell for Allah's sake, which is one of the best tools for allowing you to get to the midgame (which is what Landstill revolves around). Aside from the fact that this deck has put up better results than any other Landstill variant in the past 1.5 years, I also pointed out that roughly 35% of the cards presented in the UR Landstill decklist are mediocre, and I think we can all agree that they are only good in the mid to late game. Part of the problem with this is that Landstill is already good in the mid to late game (when it should be casting things like Fact or Fiction), and that by not having Counterspell in your deck you probably won't even make it to the mid to late game often enough for those cards to matter. Swords to Plowshares (as well as a vanilla Counterspell) is also better than every card listed above.

I just spent the above paragraph reiterating what I said in my previous post. I would consider that an attack on the idea of UR Landstill, as I obviously have never stated any slandering remark of Adan or any other poster here. It is my opinion that UR Landstill is inferior, just as it was Adan's opinion that Landstill shouldn't have 10-off color lands, even though the printing of Crucible of Worlds and U/x fetchlands helps greatly overcome any obstacle like that.

I agree that this thread is a mess. As evidence by infinite posts, people are apparently still interested in Landstill even though it was once deemed dead by many people. I would recommend seperate threads for the following decks:
1) UW Landstill (go ahead and include Enlighten Tutor based builds)
2) UR Landstill (if you really feel the need)
3) BUG Landstill (for some reason some people call this 'Duckhunt' here on The Source)
4) UWG Landstill
5) BHWC 4C Landstill

Complete_Jank

01-12-2007, 07:58 PM

I agree that this thread is a mess. As evidence by infinite posts, people are apparently still interested in Landstill even though it was once deemed dead by many people. I would recommend seperate threads for the following decks:
1) UW Landstill (go ahead and include Enlighten Tutor based builds)
2) UR Landstill (if you really feel the need)
3) BUG Landstill (for some reason some people call this 'Duckhunt' here on The Source)
4) UWG Landstill
5) BHWC 4C Landstill

I think you forgot...

6) SHIT 5C Landstill

Adan

01-13-2007, 03:34 AM

It's just because I can't imagine why the UR landstill variant should be garbage in the american meta, which is full of Goblins.

And against Solidarity, it's slightly bette rthan UW landstill, because it's got a faster clock. But the playstyle ist different obv.

It sometimes has to be played as an aggro deck. I think I'll open a new thread to discuss the UR variant.

Zilla

01-13-2007, 05:53 AM

It sometimes has to be played as an aggro deck. I think I'll open a new thread to discuss the UR variant.
There's already a UR Landstill thread here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3251).

Duckhunt thread is here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=871) (which includes a link to an older thread on the same topic), although as far as I'm aware Duck Hunt has always referred specifically to a UB build without a green splash. I may be mistaken.

The reason there's no UR Landstill in the Amercian meta is because Blue-Red Landstill variants are garbage. Swords to Plowshares is better removal than anything Red has to offer...
Jaco, this aspect of your argument is largely rhetorical. More importantly, it misses or entirely ignores the reason for a red splash to begin with. Working from a highly controlling standpoint, I'd be happy to agree with you that BWHC is easily the most proven and likely superior build of Landstill. The red splash can't be so directly compared. For example, Swords to Plowshares is indeed superior removal to, say, Lightning Bolt. On the other hand, Swords to Plowshares is never ever a threat, where Lightning Bolt is both removal and a threat. In short, the red splash trades the relative strength of its control elements for speed and versatility. Neither build is strictly superior in a vacuum. The red build is designed to be more agressive, to have strong game against Goblins, and to have a generally faster clock than something like BWHC. On the flip side, it's going to lose some games because of the lack of StP, Nantuko Monastary, and Deed.

I reacted to your post the way I did because it appeared to completely dismiss one build in favor of one you prefer without giving any real thought to the potential benefit provided by the allegedly inferior build. You're a good poster and a solid deckbuilder so I expect more from you than outright dismissal, that's all.

Complete_Jank

01-13-2007, 08:44 PM

Adan

01-14-2007, 01:34 PM

U/W Landstill while not that great IMO is better than U/R Landstill.

U/W can bring in Mettling Mages and Stifles against Combo decks. It also has Wrath, CoP, Sacred Ground and many other things it can run against the field.

U/R will most likely have Pillar to bring in against most combo decks and we all know that Pillar is subpar to Mettling Mage, as it doesn't prevent them from loosing. Red while good against Goblins, is worse against the rest of the field.

Goblins yes is a popular deck, but it isn't the only deck you will play against. That is why U/R Landstill sucks. There was a time when U/R Landstill was tested here as well. No one is going to say wow, that U/R Landstill is fast. It doesn't really present a clock like goblins and other aggro.

Aha, and my build doesn't has Stifle against combo or what????
And could you please define "the rest of the field" better than that?

UR Landstill HAS got a better Combo Matchup. Whether you got Pillar, Scirocc, REB or Chalice in the Sideboard, UR Landstills clock against combo is surely faster than the one of UW Landstill.

And I'm not lying if i say I never lost to any other deck than Goblins.
Please give me some Matchups you THINK it's bad for UR Landstill.

The NQG-Matchup is slightly worse, but the Goblin MU, the Deadguy MU and the Combo Matchup is better. Rifter is an excellent matchup. i also believe the burn gives it a advantage against other Landstill variants.

Complete_Jank

01-15-2007, 01:26 AM

Aha, and my build doesn't has Stifle against combo or what????
And could you please define "the rest of the field" better than that?

What? You don't know what the top 30 decks in the environment are? Look at the "What does your Meta look like" Thread, and try playing against all those decks.

UR Landstill HAS got a better Combo Matchup. Whether you got Pillar, Scirocc, REB or Chalice in the Sideboard, UR Landstills clock against combo is surely faster than the one of UW Landstill.
This is a lie. UW is better strickly because of Meddling Mage. Heck in your sideboard, you only run Chalice of the Void, which eliminates some of your clock. If Goblins is faster than you, and you get beat by them, how do you expect to beat Solidarity when Goblins isn't even fast enough many times?

Also, Pillar and Scirocc are horrible side board cards. Do I really need to explain why? If so, just ask and I'll explain.

And I'm not lying if i say I never lost to any other deck than Goblins.
Please give me some Matchups you THINK it's bad for UR Landstill.

The NQG-Matchup is slightly worse, but the Goblin MU, the Deadguy MU and the Combo Matchup is better. Rifter is an excellent matchup. i also believe the burn gives it a advantage against other Landstill variants.
I could say that about many decks, but it depends on how often you play the deck, and if you only play against Goblins, it of course would be your only loss.

Fine, let me tell you why you deck posted below is complete jank.

// Lands
2 [UL] Faerie Conclave
2 [TSP] Island (1)
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Mountain (1)
4 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Spells
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [AT] Nevinyrral's Disk
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [GP] Electrolyze
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [AT] Lightning Bolt
2 [ON] Slice and Dice
3 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [WL] Phyrexian Furnace
SB: 4 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast

Wait, Force of Will is your only hard counter spell?

Did you ever play against Angle Stompy? It is fast, and has 5 backside that you must burn. What about Affinity? Try playing against my deck Crazed Army.

Nevinyrral's Disk can be Pithing Needled, and can do nothing before 5th turn that is a hard removal, making it practly no removal, as you are counting much of your removal as part of your clock.

Is you flying to the upcoming GP out of the question? Maybe you could have your questions answerd.

Most decks here in America try to take control by turn 2 if not by turn 1.

JACO

01-15-2007, 01:44 AM

Jaco, this aspect of your argument is largely rhetorical. More importantly, it misses or entirely ignores the reason for a red splash to begin with...For example, Swords to Plowshares is indeed superior removal to, say, Lightning Bolt. On the other hand, Swords to Plowshares is never ever a threat, where Lightning Bolt is both removal and a threat. In short, the red splash trades the relative strength of its control elements for speed and versatility. Neither build is strictly superior in a vacuum. The red build is designed to be more agressive, to have strong game against Goblins, and to have a generally faster clock than something like BWHC. On the flip side, it's going to lose some games because of the lack of StP, Nantuko Monastary, and Deed.

I reacted to your post the way I did because it appeared to completely dismiss one build in favor of one you prefer without giving any real thought to the potential benefit provided by the allegedly inferior build...I expect more from you than outright dismissal, that's all.I understand that my post may have appeared to simply be a dismissal, especially by including what appears to be a sweeping statement about an entire deck, but I can assure you it was not. Both of my previous posts simply pointed out the flaws of the UR Landstill variant posted to back up my thought process behind writing that. As a brief aside, I would argue UR Landstill probably isn't faster than BHWC Lansdstill anyway, because of how fast people often die to Nantuko Monastery. But I digress.

Just because UR Landstill has Lightning Bolt, Fire/Ice, and/or Electrolyze to theoretically boost it's speed does not mean it has better game against Combo decks (whereas Swords might be dead in those matches, if they aren't playing Xantid Swarm). Those cards are worthless in the face of an Ill-Gotten Gains, Orim's Chant, Remand, High Tide, Cunning Wish, Goblin Charbelcher, et cetera. Meddling Mage, backed by vanilla Counterspells and Force of Wills, are the absolute best cards you can play against every combo deck in the format worth mentioning. You aren't even playing Counterspell or Red Elemental Blast (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=104217&postcount=549), which are two of your better in-color answers to Combo in general, and coincidentally are very good against a commonly played deck called Threshold. On a somewhat related note, if you are playing black, you also have access to Duress, which is another hammer against Combo, and is also very good against opposing Control and Aggro-Control decks.

If you are to the point in ANY match piloting Landstill where Fire/Ice, Electrolyze, or Lightning Bolt are actual threats, then you already have control of the game and would probably win anyway. That probably means the game has lasted 10+ turns, and you have been attacking your opponent infinite times with Mishra's Factory and/or Faerie Conclave. Which in turn means you have already survived to the point where cards like Fact or Fiction become much better options, in terms of both digging for whatever you need at that point in the game, or gaining back card advantage after you have expended your resources to get to the mid to late game.

I'm not arguing for BHWC 4C Landstill by any means, and in fact would be happier if no one else ever played it, because that's one less good deck I'd have to face in a tournament. My ego is not part of the equation. I'm simply pointing out the flaws of a UR Landstill variant, and how ill-equipped it is compared to other potential Landstill variants in a varied metagame. Not having access to a staple card like Swords to Plowshares means you lose to random decks like Reanimator, and losing to random decks in Legacy, with the available card pool, is seriously a no-no. Swords to Plowshares is the best, most undercosted, and most flexible removal spell in Legacy. In a deck where you want to just stay alive, Swords to Plowshares, along with Counterspell, enable you to do just that. This is not in a vacuum, but in reality. This is the same reality where Swords to Plowshares was removed from base-level sets long ago for power-level reasons, and Electrolyze currently not even being good enough to be played in Type 2 with any regularity.

Adan

01-15-2007, 04:01 PM

Wait, Force of Will is your only hard counter spell?

Did you ever play against Angle Stompy? It is fast, and has 5 backside that you must burn. What about Affinity? Try playing against my deck Crazed Army.

Nevinyrral's Disk can be Pithing Needled, and can do nothing before 5th turn that is a hard removal, making it practly no removal, as you are counting much of your removal as part of your clock.

Is you flying to the upcoming GP out of the question? Maybe you could have your questions answerd.

Most decks here in America try to take control by turn 2 if not by turn 1.

I never had problems against Angel Stompy. And Affinity is of of the easiest Matchups.
By the way, my build now has some changes: -1 Stifle, -1 Wasteland, -1 Electrolyze, +3 Repeal.

And with Repeal I just give a fuck if my Disk gets needled or not.
And about that control-statement: That's why I play Shoal. It counters Aether Vial 1st Turn without having FoW ir can be used to bring through a safe 2nd Turn Standstill.

It's a fact that this deck can also stall to turn 4 via Ptch-Counter/Burn to drop a Disk. You will recover from the disadvantage of the Pitchcounters after dropping Standstill.
You obviously never played UR Landstill, so you should stop argueing with me about that. I'm confident I got more experience with this deck than you.

I already won against Angelstompy, Solidarity, Burn, Landstill Mirror, Rifter, Deadguy, Grow(red and white variants), Faerie Stompy, Affinity, IGG and even Life.dec. believe me, I wouldn't say this if I hadn't beat them by myself.

The only matchup I lost to was I unique 3color Zoo and Goblins. I really think UR Landstill IS a allrounder, no matter what metagame is played.

Complete_Jank

01-16-2007, 04:22 PM

You obviously never played UR Landstill, so you should stop argueing with me about that. I'm confident I got more experience with this deck than you.
I've played UR Landstill, and realized how horrible it is, for the exact reasons as stated above.

And I'm not lying if i say I never lost to any other deck than Goblins.&
The only matchup I lost to was I unique 3color Zoo and Goblins. I really think UR Landstill IS a allrounder, no matter what metagame is played.
Wait, so you were lying!

Ok, I'm done talking to you. I can't, and no one else should believe anything you say.

Adan

01-17-2007, 08:12 AM

First I didn't counted that Zoo to it, because that were a casual play, but in a tournament I never lost to another deck than goblins.

And even IF i were a liar, that won't change that you can't bring some useful arguments AGAINST UR Landstill.

I'm very disappointed that you won't talk to me now, because I'm still waiting for some G-O-O-D arguments or answers for the question "Why DOES UR Landstill suck?".

Because you brought some. And "because UR Landstills removal is inferior to the removal of UW". That's bullshit! Can you kill someone with a StoP or a WoG? No you can't. Can you kill someone with Lightning Bolt and Fire//Ice?
Yes indeed. So lets say you are playing against Solidarity, where you got tons of dead cards. What will the StoP or the WoG do instead of rotting in your hand? Yeah, nothing.

UR Landstill got the advantage, that it got less useless cards in some matchups. Plus, against slow controldecks like Rifter or The Rock, it can be aggressive.

On the last tournament, I played against BGW Rock. It was standing 1:1, because i had to recur Phyrexian Furnace with Academy Ruins to dispose Genesis and the other annoying stuff. And we had 8 minutes remaining. I killed him by switching to aggro-mode, racing him with burn and conclaves. You can't do that with UW Landstill. NEVER. NEVER EVER.

Complete_Jank

01-17-2007, 03:27 PM

And even IF i were a liar, that won't change that you can't bring some useful arguments AGAINST UR Landstill.

I'm very disappointed that you won't talk to me now, because I'm still waiting for some G-O-O-D arguments or answers for the question "Why DOES UR Landstill suck?".

The great points to our side of the argument have been made. JACO and I both have stated why. UR Landstill is horrible. Debating it any further with you is useless. I just leave you with your deck that you think is so great.

If your deck is so great and never loses. Fly to the Grand Prix and win.

midnightAce

01-17-2007, 04:56 PM

I don't know where to start, I'm not arguing for or against any deck, so I'll just start with some observations.

Disk, while it can be Needled, ignores colour requirement. One of the reasons of downfall of UW Landstill was that the white source was constantly being Ported or Wasted. Disk also allows for some flexibility dealing with Vial, equipments from AS, and any other random stuff that might come up. This flexibility, on top of the no colour restriction, should not be ignored when comparing it to WoG.

I killed him by switching to aggro-mode

This brings up an interesting point. What is Thershold? Cheap efficient beats backed up by counters, or in the case of UGr Thresh, cheap efficient beats backed up by counters and burns. How does this differ from the UR Landstill's aggro mode? UR Landstill's creature also has the ability to recur, (Crucible), and comes into play dodging counters, and socery speed removals. That's an advantage, and UW Landstill shares that advantage. Again, that's just an observation from piloting the deck as well as seeing it in action.

The point of the forum is to develop the deck, optimize it, no? While a particular list may be subpar, I don't think one should dismiss an entire deck type based on one list.

@JACO's points

I like these points that you raised. The typical burn package in UR Landstill (Bolts + Fire/Ice + something ) is designed to be cheap removals and late game reach. However they all fall short when facing Werebears and Enforcers, or even a lesser extent, Silver Knights and Angels. StP shines here, no doubt about that.

However, I do disagree with this particular part of your argument:

If you are to the point in ANY match piloting Landstill where Fire/Ice, Electrolyze, or Lightning Bolt are actual threats, then you already have control of the game and would probably win anyway.

Often times after you pop a Disk, UR will likely to get a few swings in. The inclusion of burn forces the opponent to not get too comfortable with his/her life totals. Even after they recover from the initial Disk, if they are low on life, the burn gives you outs on top of the other Disks left in the deck, while completely ignoring their creatures. This is something that UW can't do. Even after a large cycled Decree (say 6 soldiers) or a hard cast one (say 2 Angels), UW still must deal with the Enforcers and Bears and other jank that stands in the way.

Typical UR might pack an upward of 8-10 burns on top of Disk, + the occasional Slice and Dice or Starstorm. That's close to 16 removals compare to UW's StP/Wrath/Vengence package, which is usually around 10. The sheer number is an advantage when top decking later on.

To summarize:
UR packs removals that are flexible, but often inefficient. (Bolts vs. Bear)
UW packs solid removal that comes online earlier, (Wrath turn 4 vs. Disk turn 5) but is often disrupted (colour denial).

Clearly each archtype has its own advantages and disadvantages. I guess for those of you who has already completely dismissed the UR deck type, move on. For those of you who haven't give up all hope yet, continue to improvise. Since this is a forum where we talk about the development and fine tuning of magic decks, let's put the whole "you are a liar, my deck > you" stuff aside, and let's focus on that. I'll get started:

Starstorm -- On turn 4, if RR is there, it acts similarly to WoG against Goblins. (I'm assuming there are no Goblin Kings MD.) It's instant speed, and can be cycled away during non-creature heavy matches. I would like recommend sub these for Slice and Dice. (At 4RR, they do the exact same thing, but Starstorm is instant and is infinitely better.)

Dealing with the 4+ butts -- Bears, Grunts, Angels, Enforcers, occasional Mongrels, guys with equipments, etc. I don't really have a solution for them at the moment, but I do think something needs to be done. As they have already pointed out, FoW alone just doesn't cut it. Shoal is conditional and requires a lot of investment. The fact that you cannot always rely on Standstill for card advantage exists both in UW and UR, that problem is not going to go away.

Changing the deck type completely -- If memory serves, the original UR type of control deck were CounterBurn. Counters + Urza's rage. I'm not saying that's the solution nor am I advocating that CounterBurn is a top tier deck. What I am saying is that it's one of the routes that UR Landstill can take, see if they can envolve into something else. Instead of control in nature, perhaps aggro control, operate on similar principle as the UGr Thresh, or control elements + burn + ACTIVE card draw instead of Standstill, etc etc. The point is, the Legacy card pool is out there, for those that do want to work on the UR type, let them, don't be too bashful.

Just my 2 cents, then again, what do I know? I'm not even in the States, I'm a damn Canadian. =)

georgjorge

01-27-2007, 09:49 AM

Dealing with the 4+ butts -- Bears, Grunts, Angels, Enforcers, occasional Mongrels, guys with equipments, etc. I don't really have a solution for them at the moment, but I do think something needs to be done. As they have already pointed out, FoW alone just doesn't cut it. Shoal is conditional and requires a lot of investment. The fact that you cannot always rely on Standstill for card advantage exists both in UW and UR, that problem is not going to go away.

A solution I have recently found for this guys - but in no way limited to creatures - is Engineered Explosives. It's like a small disk which can be used immediately, and I ask you to try it out - it's pretty good (at least in the Uwr version I'm running), and can even kill Chalices and stuff. For reference, the removal suite in my deck at the moment is

4 Bolt
4 Swords
3 Fire/Ice
2 Disk
2 Explosives
1 Pyroclasm (kinda random, I know)

Only 2 Disk because many beatdown decks nowadays play either Wasteland/Port, or Daze, which makes getting Disk down in time for the first rush not probable. It's there more for the second rush or something...

On Crucible/Wasteland: I agree with the guy who mentioned that this deck tends to win anyway most of the time when it stabilizes after the first five or six turns or so, since there aren't exactly many other control decks in the meta. So if you want to start Wasting mana sources by turn six or seven, fine, but I think you would have won anyways. Since this deck is VERY mana hungry already (Manlands, Disk, Fact, Decree if you play it), playing a 3cc-Artifact which takes some turns to have an effect, OR a land which you have to sacrifice when you would rather want to build your mana supply (a lone Wasteland on turn ten isn't that good anymore) is no good thing for that deck. It probably was a good thing when there were many control decks and many possible mirror matchups, but as it now is, it has no use.

One other thing: I haven't been able to play against either yet, but it seems that any Stax variant as well as Life from the Loam-based decks should beat this deck more often than not. Can anyone talk about those matchups, what strategies are good there, and which cards work in the sideboard against those decks ?