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Bryant Cook
04-12-2006, 04:22 PM
I ended up being 4-2 at Kadilak's Dual Land Draft. I missed top 8 due to not being able to draw in round 6, being 4-1. There was 10 people underneath myself and Phil Stolze, with 10 points when we had 12. I was the only red Gro/Threshold player there. This is the list that I ran.

Threshold/Not Quite Gro red
By: Bryant Cook

4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothill
3 Flooded Strand

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Fledging Dragon

4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Predict
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Magma Jet
4 Fire/Ice
4 Lightning Bolt

Sideboard
3 Pithing Needle
3 Flametongue Kavu
4 Pyroclasm
2 Phrexian Furnace
1 Tormod's crypt
2 Naturalize

Round 1 Jason Sims (Corrupted Angel) (Vial Goblins)
Game1: He mulled and played lackey I played goose and traded. I played alot of burn and Mongeese.
Game2: Clasm was huge along with me FTKing.
1-0
Round 2 Kevin Garvey (Garvman) (Garv.deck)
Game 1: I dazed his first 2 men he played a turn 4 troll with 2 rancors. Whatever gay stuff happens.
Game 2: I had 9 land in play, I fetched 3 times, and scryed 3 to the bottom.
Whatever gay stuff happens.
1-1
Round 3 Chris ..... Team LVL 4 wizards (U/r Flamevault/stasis)
Game 1: My first 3 turns involved 2 mongeese a visions and predict. Turns out his deck didn't play counters besides 4 force so I went nuts.
Game 2: He got a stasis down and I eventually won with werebears. Pithign needle on Timevault was key.
2-1
Round 4 John ..... Team LVL 4 Wizards (vialgoblins)
Game 1 : I drew alot, and I mean alot of burn like 10. Followed up bya fledgling dragon. He drew 3 wastelands that game.... That hit my trops.
Game 2: He should of won but he feared 2 mongeese out with his pyrostatic pillar. He Had 2 matrons, a warchief, kiki-jiki, and a siege-gang with friends out against me and didn't swing. When I was at 9, all I Had out was a forest and 2 geese. So I pull the card I draw way into the ait and scream red source without looking and open up my eyes and its a foothills. I fetch for a basic mountain and clasm his team away. This game he drew all 4 wastelands...
3-1
Round 5 John Lacasse (Mulletus) (RGSA)
Game 1: My opening hand was rediculous it was island, fetch, visions, predict, daze, counterspell, force of will. I felt alot better since I sat down going oh, great I'm going to lose. He played 2 survivals and 2 witnesses andnever got a survival into play. I ended up going fledgling dragon beats.
Game 2: I mulled to 6 kept a double cantrip, needle, Island, Fire/ice hand.
I needled survival, he never drew any until lategame. I ended up getting threshold really late from being mana screwed played a dragin and started racing. I was losing the race. on my last turn possible to do anything, I thought I was out when I riped a clasm, that proceeded to kill a FTK, Troll, and witness. He had just cast baloth. I swung for 9 when he was at 4 so the Baloth was no good.
4-1
Round 6 Phil Stolze (3c Angel Stompy)
Game 1: I played 2 mongeese and raced his lone meddling mage.
Game 2: I kept a 5 land,mongoose, B-storm hand. He duressed me.... GG to me. I ended up getting mana flooded with 8 lands in play I got him down to 4. When he maged naming magma jet after I told him I SB'd out burn since it sucks against Pro-red men. He equiped jitte. I played a needle naming jitte. He then ripped sword of fire/ice off the top for the GG.
Game 3: I get mana flooded again.... And he bashes my face with 2 Exalted Angels.
4-2
Meh, I coulda drew in if it wasn't for all the rifter decks going to time.
Props to all the Gro players for doing well, for the 7 of us 5 of us were in the winner's bracket most of the time.

dazed and confused
04-13-2006, 09:06 PM
ok well reading your lists they all sound good, but i run a little diffrent build.

4 Werebears
4 mystic enforcers
4 medleing mages

4 force of will
4 counterspell

4 brainstorm
3 serums vission
4 predict
2 fact or fiction

4 STP
2 echoing truth

2 cunning wish

4 Tundra
4 Trops
4 flooded strand
4 poluted deltas
2 Island
1 plain

Side board

1 stifle
4 blasts
1 gaea's blessing
1 naturalize
1 b zerk
3 tividars crusade
2 Tormods crypt
2 pithing neeldes

Although yours all looked alot more fun to play, i found My build to be to be stable and versitile.

The diffrences:

Echoing truth
I chose echoing truth instead of daze because i found it helps ALOT against most threats and can let me return to hand a threat then cast medleing mage once its in thier hand. It also removes multiples of same cards and is an INSTANT wich means EOT :)

Fact or Fiction
It may be alot to cast for a draw but with i fopund it never to be a dead card since it can be cast 3rd turn and add to your threshhold AND can be tossed to FOW.

8 Fetchland
It does add to the land count and takes 2 spots for answers BUT it adds to the thresh count AND thins land from the deck so you can better your chance to draw an answer or cantrip

Cunning Wish
Well with so many problems that can crop up in a match, the added value of being able to wish for a answer or quicken the clock by wishing for bezerk makes it well worth it. It can also be tossed to FOW and the fact that it still goes with the EOT theme leaving your mana free for your turn to drop threats or reserve for disruption.

I also decided to only use 3 serums vissions because i found as good as they are with predict and the scry factor its still a sourcery and the only things i want to play on my turn is land and creatures

I say try it and see what you think before you say "EH its ok i guess", I know it doesnt look as fun BUT its stable and IS resorcefull!! I play it in tournies every friday and i always place in the semifinals or finals and so do the people who borrow my deck and play.

Hope you enjoy

Obfuscate Freely
04-13-2006, 11:37 PM
I would still run -1 Island, +1 Plains, but I think I could be swayed from that argument. i just feel its important to be able to cast Enforcer from Basics alone.
My problem with adding another non-blue basic is that it will necessarily make you mulligan more often. Gro can pretty freely keep 1-land hands, especially with the full 12 1cc cantrips, but that one land has to be blue.

Why do you find it important to be able to cast Enforcer with basics? 2WG is at the very top of this deck's curve; you can wait to fetch the Tundra until the turn you cast Enforcer, and then the Tundra will be largely unnecessary. Fetch up another one if you need to cast STP. Your opponent is probably relying on topdecks to find another of their 4 Wastelands, while you have a 16-card draw engine to ensure you have access to one of your 10 white sources.


I still Like Mentl Note, but there are pros and cons to it, just like Portent. In a meta filled with the Mirror, I think I would cut Note, simply because you ned card selection, not speed. In a Goblin meta or a Solidarity one, I think Note is better than Predict.

Gaining card advantage is actually very important against Goblins, and it also helps against Solidarity. In neither matchup would I want to sacrifice the draw engine for the small possibility of getting threshold sooner.


Monestary is nuts. I'm ashamed I never thought of it. How difficult has it been for you to keep GW up to activate it?

In the matchups that Monastery is best in, your manabase is never under any pressure (barring Boil from Rifter), so Monastery will generally come down as the 4th or 5th land. At that point, it will dominate the board, so the mana investment is worth it.

There are a few decks that play Wasteland that Monastery can see play against, the main example being Landstill. In cases like this, it is usually worth it to stop Wasteland with the Needles, both to protect your manabase and the Monasteries themselves.


I also have MD Engineered Explosives (I've been testing them) but those could easily come out as well. The Explosives used to be cantrips, and I can see them becoming them again. I agree that they're better in the board.


Also, have you thought about running Engineered Explosives in the sideboard or the maindeck? I have found that to be one of the best removal spells that a UWG threshold deck can take advantage of, being great against a lot of different decks and threats.

I don't like Engineered Explosives because they are extremely mana-intensive. In this format, an Explosives will often only hit one threat, and spot removal spells that cost more than two mana are terribly inefficient.

The other big issue I have with Explosives is that they will often threaten your own permanents.


ok well reading your lists they all sound good, but i run a little diffrent build.

4 Werebears
4 mystic enforcers
4 medleing mages

4 force of will
4 counterspell

4 brainstorm
3 serums vission
4 predict
2 fact or fiction

4 STP
2 echoing truth

2 cunning wish

4 Tundra
4 Trops
4 flooded strand
4 poluted deltas
2 Island
1 plain

Side board

1 stifle
4 blasts
1 gaea's blessing
1 naturalize
1 b zerk
3 tividars crusade
2 Tormods crypt
2 pithing neeldes
Your creature base is extremely questionable. Going up to four Mystic Enforcers while not running Nimble Mongoose at all slows the deck down an awful lot. Also, I don't think you can justify maindecking Meddling Mage unless your metagame is overwhelmed with combo decks.

Of course, the other changes you've made also slow the deck down. You've stretched the curve by adding Fact or Fiction and Cunning Wish, both very slow cards. This has even forced you to up the land count.

Echoing Truth does not belong. Bounce spells almost always create card disadvantage; they can provide a decent tempo advantage, but even so are not included in other Gro lists. I don't see how bounce could be better in a slower deck, like yours.

Can you give us some specific reasons that you think your deck is better than the more traditional lists? I spent a good amount of time spelling out why I think my build is close to optimal, and I'd like to know why you think otherwise. For example, I suspect that decks with Nimble Mongoose and more cantrips will do much better against Goblins than your list. Am I wrong?

overlord95
04-14-2006, 04:07 AM
Well, I recently attended Cadilackís Dual Land Draft coming in at a respectable 3rd place with UGB Grow, and let me tell you ladies and gentlemen, black is back and in a big way.

Round 1: John with Vial Goblins
Game 1:
He wins the die roll and decides to play. He mulliganes to six and starts off with a first turn Rishadon Port into an Aether Vial. I look at my hand and see nothing that can deal with the Vial so I think Iím in for an uphill battle. So I take my turn and rip a Pithing Needle off the top so I drop it naming Vial and say, ďgo.Ē Then over the course of the next 5 turns, he plays nothing. So, da bears hastily lay him down to rest.
1-0
Game 2:
This game is a little faster. Heís on the play and drops a first turn Goblin Lackey, which resolves. I play a Polluted Delta and then pass the turn. He swings with Goblin Lackey that quickly is hit with a Ghastly Demise. So, he goes to his second main phase and then drops a Pyrostatic Pillar, and Iím thinking to myself, ďshit, Iím going to lose to that,Ē which I did, so on to game three, and in come the Naturalizes.
1-1
Game 3
He fucks up and makes the same mistake as the first game, so its good times to be had by all.
2-1
Overall, Record 1-0

Round 2: Justin with Solidarity
Game 1:
Iím writing all of this off of memory and with the aid of my life total sheet for the day and this game is kina fuzzy but all I remember is dropping a turn two Dark Confidant and riding it to the win.
1-0
Game 2:
This game I open up a decent hand with something like Force of Will, Force of Will, Counterspell, land, and some draw. Something, like half way through the game, he attempts to go off when Iím tapped out. However, he runs into like three Force of Wills and is shut down. But later on, heís able to rebuild since I drew like no creatures the entire game, so he just overruns me with must the I just canít deal with all them.
1-1
Game 3:
I get unbelievably mana flooded and I just get steam rolled.
1-2
Overall, Record 1-1

Round 3: Ian (Carven Ninja) with Welder Survival
Game 1:
This game I just steam roll him. He resolves like two spells the entire game. I think they were something like a Birds of Paradise and an Elvish Lyrist. Nevertheless, steam rolled.
1-0
Game 2:
I just counter the important stuff so he has to just go with the bad beats plan, but that didnít work out so well. At one point, he had to hard cast Squee to block the onslaught of critters.
2-0
Overall, Record 2-1

Round 4: Garv (Garvman) with Garv.Dec
Game 1:
All I remember from this game is that he was stuck on two mana and had to start swinging with a rancored Birds of Paradise. So, my team quickly went to town on him.
1-0
Game 2:
This game I just countered some Wild Mongrels and just smashed his face in.
2-0
Overall, Record 3-1

Round 5: Nick with three-color Angel Stompy
Game 1:
In this game, I dazed a faced down angel, force of willed a Dark Confidant, and raced two Soltari Priests. But the card advantage generated by my own Dark Confidant is what really won me the game.
1-0
Game 2:
This game I hit threshold on something like turn three and then just dropped creatures like there was no tomorrow and he just couldnít keep up.
2-0
Overall, record 4-1

Round 6: Brian D. (Ewokslayer) with Solidarity
This whole round is somewhat fuzzy but what I remember is that we had to play it out since I was paired down. But in the end, I won 2-1, which guaranteed me a top eight spot.
Overall, record 5-1

Top 8: Allen (Urabahn) with Rifter
Game 1:
He just grinds me out, draws it out into the late game, and then he drops a humility at which point I scoop to save time.
0-1
Game 2:
I drop a few bears in the early game and Iím able to protect them until heís at zero.
1-1
Game 3:
I get kind of mana flooded, but Iím able to pull through to the late game. We reach time and I then proceed to drop a couple Werebears in one turn and squeeze out a piping hot W.
2-1
Overall, record 6-1

Top 4: Mike (Herbig) with Solidarity
Game 1:
I keep a hand that I shouldnít have and I paid severely for it, as he just went off on me like a loaded gun.
0-1
Game 2:
This game I just rode a turn two Dark Confidant to the win.
1-1
Game 3:
I just make a bunch of mistakes in this game. Just dumb shit too, like I grab the wrong land with a delta, I forgot what was on top of my library when I predicted myself, and I forgot to play creatures when I should have. But yea in the end, I pay for all my misplays and lose horribly.
1-2
Overall, record 6-2

Overall, I was delighted with the performance of the deck, and have come across no major issues with the current list. Which goes as followed.
UGB Threshold/Grow by Scott Scheurer
Disruption:
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspells
3 Pithing Needle
4 Ghastly Demise
Critters:
4 Werebears
3 Dark Confidant
4 Nimble Mongoose
Draw/manipulation:
4 Portent
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Vision
4 Predict
Mana Base:
1 Swamp
3 Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand

Deck list analysis

Daze: I have found three Dazes to be the right number. You really donít want to see them in multiples or draw them in the mid to late gameotherwise there a dead card.
Counterspell:In recent testing, I have finding myself longing for the third Counterspell. The deck just feels like itís too light on hard counters.
Pithing Needle: My main quarrel with Pithing Needle is that itís dead against Solidarity and the mirror match up. Nevertheless, in these match ups you have plenty of time to scry put back or shuffle them away to avoid drawing them. Yet these reasons alone due not necessitate its exclusion from the main deck. On the up side, it improves almost every other match up ranging from aggro to control and all the little in betweens.
Ghastly Demise: This spot is exceedingly meta game depended. It can very from Diabolic Edict (if youíre expecting to see a lot of the mirror) to Echoing Decay (if you expect to see alot of Goblins). But the chief motivation for its inclusion into the main is that itís the most mana efficient creature removal spell available thatís the least restrictive.
Dark Confidant: In my testing, I have Dark Confidant to be the clinching reason to play black. The fact that you have a beater that draws cards is simply amazing. Also on a side note, the whole revealing a force with him and Lava Axing yourself yea the shit doesnít happenÖ..ever, the fact that you have twelve stacking effects minimalizes the life loss from a Shock to a Lava Dart each turn at most.
Portent: My initial reasoning for playing Portent was the fact that it was an efficient stacking effect to increase the potency of Predict and Dark Confidant. But in time, it grew on me and I came to fully appreciate the ability to go through five cards of my library to find that answer.
Predict: This card has consistently preformed well, and the fact that itís an instant, easier on the mana base, and is able to pitch its self to Force of Will I think gives it the edge over Nightís Whisper.

Cards not included
Mental Note: Ohh dear Jesus where to begin. First off, it doesnít allow for any library manipulation. Secondly, itís fucking terrible in the mirror; the key here is to seek card quality. Thirdly getting a few extra points of damage in the early to mid game just isnít worth the space it takes up. Fourthly, I donít know if just me but I just donít like milling answers to a problem no matter how small of a chance it is itís still not worth the risk.
Nightís Whisper: I just donít feel like restating myself, read Predict.
Putrefy/ all other 3cc removal: They cost three nuff said.
Dark Blast: Itís just dead in to many match ups out side of Deadguy Ale and Goblins sometimes.
Pernicious Deed: Itís to damn mana intensive in a deck that only runs 17 mana sources.

Reasons to play black over red and white
Removal: Here your options run far deeper then white and probably even red. You also have the option of running an assortment of sweeper effects such as Massacre, Infest, and even Hideous Laughter.
Draw: Black has without a doubt the best draw engine available to grow via Dark Confidant and Nightís Whisper.
Sideboard: Here you have an array of options varying from hand disruption against combo and control such as Duress, Cabal Therapy, to even Hymn to Tourach, to more spot removal/sweepers against the mirror and aggro.

All in all I feel that black has a lot to offer grow in general. But much of it is yet to be explored which I eagerly look forward to your suggestions.

Lego
04-15-2006, 02:54 PM
Congratulations on your finish, I like your list a lot. I'm thinking black might be the way to go, especially with the rise of combo. I was wondering what your sideboard was for the tournament, and what you would make it after the fact. Duress seems great in the board against Solidarity, making your matchup even better.

BlindMage
04-15-2006, 03:59 PM
Black definitely has much tastiness for thresh. Actual card advantage, for example. On the other hand, the lack of a big finisher is worrisome, though I note the nonsynergy of a big finisher with Dark Confidant. Clearly, no finisher wasn't enough to stop you for doing well. Also, why only 3x DC? I don't think there's a compelling reason not to run all 4. He's easy too kill, and has a big huge target on his head. It's true that they can get dangerous in with several on the board, but with such a low curve, it seems like you'd simply overwhelm the opponent with card advantage before bob ever killed you. Besides, there's no rule that says you have to play all the ones that you draw.

overlord95
04-15-2006, 04:51 PM
Congratulations on your finish, I like your list a lot. I'm thinking black might be the way to go, especially with the rise of combo. I was wondering what your sideboard was for the tournament, and what you would make it after the fact. Duress seems great in the board against Solidarity, making your matchup even better.
Well, the board for Saturday was as followed
3 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Naturalize
2 Tormod's Crypt
In retrospect I wouldn't have changed a thing. During the course of the day I boarded everyhing in at least once.

Black definitely has much tastiness for thresh. Actual card advantage, for example. On the other hand, the lack of a big finisher is worrisome, though I note the nonsynergy of a big finisher with Dark Confidant. Clearly, no finisher wasn't enough to stop you for doing well. Also, why only 3x DC? I don't think there's a compelling reason not to run all 4. He's easy too kill, and has a big huge target on his head. It's true that they can get dangerous in with several on the board, but with such a low curve, it seems like you'd simply overwhelm the opponent with card advantage before bob ever killed you. Besides, there's no rule that says you have to play all the ones that you draw.
Well, the most compelling reason not to run 4 is the fact that anymore of them past the first one you really don't wanna draw. Also the fact that he's so fragile means in alot of cases you dont want to invest the mana in him.

URABAHN
04-16-2006, 09:47 AM
Reasons to play black over red and white
Removal: Here your options run far deeper then white and probably even red. You also have the option of running an assortment of sweeper effects such as Massacre, Infest, and even Hideous Laughter.
Draw: Black has without a doubt the best draw engine available to grow via Dark Confidant and Nightís Whisper.
Sideboard: Here you have an array of options varying from hand disruption against combo and control such as Duress, Cabal Therapy, to even Hymn to Tourach, to more spot removal/sweepers against the mirror and aggro.

All in all I feel that black has a lot to offer grow in general. But much of it is yet to be explored which I eagerly look forward to your suggestions.

I like how the black splash has Duress for control decks like Rifter. If you get a Humility or removal spell out of their hand, that's one less card Gro has to counter or Naturalize.

My Name Is Scott
04-17-2006, 08:14 AM
I like how the black splash has Duress for control decks like Rifter. If you get a Humility or removal spell out of their hand, that's one less card Gro has to counter or Naturalize.
On top of that, you also have the option of running echoes in the board if you're in a particularly control heavy meta. It basically makes the postboard matchup a bye when used in combonation with duress.

Bane of the Living
04-17-2006, 05:18 PM
I like how a ton of peopl on this thread bitched the black splash out of here and discarded it.

Its had its own love and time to grow in the black thresh thread, now it looks promising huh?

Brushwagg
04-17-2006, 07:45 PM
I like how a ton of peopl on this thread bitched the black splash out of here and discarded it.

Its had its own love and time to grow in the black thresh thread, now it looks promising huh?

They just needed some proof. But some of us already knew it was good. Black has so many options, more then both White and Red that it's silly. But what I think really pushed the Black splash over the edge was Dark Confidant.

Lego
04-17-2006, 10:00 PM
But what I think really pushed the Black splash over the edge was Dark Confidant.

Early on as the black splash was first being discussed, Dark Confidant was still knew, and people were afraid of him. Now that people know how powerful he is, they're beginning to see the light. What's going to happen to the black thread now? I assume peolpe will start talking about it here, so what are we going to do? :smile:

BlindMage
04-18-2006, 12:21 AM
In addition, the black spalsh has some structural differances from the other two, most notably the lack of a big finisher, and the presence of real card advantage. This seperates it somewhat from the other two, and changes the play strategy in a way that is subtle but profound. The way I see it, the black splash essentially trades confidant for enforcer or dragon, which has the overall effect of weakening one's ability to come from behind, but increasing one's ability to get very far ahead early on (thus reducing the need to come from behind). Of course, I could be full of baloney on this.


My Mages are still in the board because they are terrible in a lot of matchups. They are also still in the board because Mage is an amazing tool to have access to.


Also, about the Meddling Mage being in the SB, I agree completely. It's best matchup is against Combo, and to some extent, Control decks. However, Control decks will usually have multiple types of removal to kill it. Also, it isn't half as useful first game as it is second and third, unless you know your opponent's deck thoroughly.

I absolutely disagree with this. Meddling Mage is useful at a bare minimum in it's worst matchups (though they should be sided out against some things). In its good ones, its a wrecking ball. You don't need to know your opponent's deck inside out either, just a working knowledge of the metagame and how decks are built. See a couple mountains? Name bolt. Plains? Silver Knight or Wrath of God. Swamp? Duress or hymn. I think Bardo said it best when he said:


don't be a pussy.

Seriously, every mage you play doesn't need to bust their whole plan. If each one is mildy annoying, or forces them to play around it a little bit, you've come out ahead. In summation, don't be a pussy.

Obfuscate Freely
04-18-2006, 10:21 AM
Meddling Mage is useful at a bare minimum in it's worst matchups (though they should be sided out against some things). In its good ones, its a wrecking ball. You don't need to know your opponent's deck inside out either, just a working knowledge of the metagame and how decks are built. See a couple mountains? Name bolt. Plains? Silver Knight or Wrath of God. Swamp? Duress or hymn.

Seriously, every mage you play doesn't need to bust their whole plan. If each one is mildy annoying, or forces them to play around it a little bit, you've come out ahead.
Being "useful at a bare minimum" is not good enough for Meddling Mage to deserve a slot over any of the other cards in the deck. Most of the (relatively few) matchups Mage shines in are already favorable, with or without it, which makes its inclusion even harder to justify.


In summation, don't be a pussy.
What the hell is this supposed to mean? Is it supposed to convince me to make suboptimal card choices when I build my decks? Only pussies optimize their decklists?

Stop being so stubborn and move the Mages to the sideboard. Pikula will get over it.

Nightmare
04-18-2006, 10:45 AM
Stop being so stubborn and move the Mages to the sideboard. Pikula will get over it.I'm willing to do this if for no other reason than they aren't foil, and Chris's signature is ugly as fuck. After the D4D, I've noticed they are usually the first thing to swing into the board game 2, so they seem better fit in there. For the most part, they're just bears, and the only bears I want in play are THE bears. I think having additional manipulation will pay off better in the long run, although I'm considering additional removal, as well. Relying on four Swords alone is getting old.

Ewokslayer
04-18-2006, 12:13 PM
I'm willing to do this if for no other reason than they aren't foil, and Chris's signature is ugly as fuck. After the D4D, I've noticed they are usually the first thing to swing into the board game 2, so they seem better fit in there. For the most part, they're just bears, and the only bears I want in play are THE bears. I think having additional manipulation will pay off better in the long run, although I'm considering additional removal, as well. Relying on four Swords alone is getting old.
You will probably find that with the additional hand manipulation you will be able to find what you need when you need it. Thus having only four Swords isn't so much an issue.

Nightmare
04-18-2006, 01:00 PM
You will probably find that with the additional hand manipulation you will be able to find what you need when you need it. Thus having only four Swords isn't so much an issue.I figure that to be the case, but I'm actually being a good little Magic player and testing the new Swords in addition to the 4 already in the deck.

BlindMage
04-18-2006, 02:22 PM
Whatever. I have no idea what you guys are talking about; Medding Mage is one of the strongest cards in the deck for me, and the best argument for playing white over red.

Nightmare
04-18-2006, 02:34 PM
Whatever. I have no idea what you guys are talking about; Medding Mage is one of the strongest cards in the deck for me, and the best argument for playing white over red.I'm not refuting that it may be for you. In my opinion, the inclusion of the Mages isn't under attack, rather the decision of Maindeck or Side. My meta isn't very Combo-heavy or even control heavy, it's dominated by aggro. Because of this, I feel having him in the main isn't the best use of the slots. This doesn't mean I don't appreciate how good he is in some matchups.

Brushwagg
04-19-2006, 07:13 PM
I'm not refuting that it may be for you. In my opinion, the inclusion of the Mages isn't under attack, rather the decision of Maindeck or Side. My meta isn't very Combo-heavy or even control heavy, it's dominated by aggro. Because of this, I feel having him in the main isn't the best use of the slots. This doesn't mean I don't appreciate how good he is in some matchups.

Actually what you meant to say was OUR META SUCKS! You really never know what you are going to see week to week, with the exception of a few players (you know who they are). So yes I can see Mage going to the board.

Getsickanddie
04-19-2006, 11:05 PM
Actually what you meant to say was OUR META SUCKS! You really never know what you are going to see week to week, with the exception of a few players (you know who they are). So yes I can see Mage going to the board.

I agree with moving the mages to the board but it is very meta dependant. Frankly in Syracuse Meddling Mage is often no better than Grizzly Bears.

Shriekmaw
04-19-2006, 11:57 PM
I have to counter this point of moving Meddling Mages to the board in the white based Grow deck. They are just too important not to maindeck at all. Sometimes they do prove not to be too helpful, but thats why you have a sideboard built and you can always opt to side these creatures out. Letting the other player not have a key threat when you can protect the mage with countermagic seems to be a very solid gameplan in most scenerios.

If you think the mage really isn't that good, then maybe playing Grow with the red splash would suite your needs much better. Just a suggestion.

Getsickanddie
04-20-2006, 01:52 AM
I have to counter this point of moving Meddling Mages to the board in the white based Grow deck. They are just too important not to maindeck at all. Sometimes they do prove not to be too helpful, but thats why you have a sideboard built and you can always opt to side these creatures out. Letting the other player not have a key threat when you can protect the mage with countermagic seems to be a very solid gameplan in most scenerios.

If you think the mage really isn't that good, then maybe playing Grow with the red splash would suite your needs much better. Just a suggestion.


I think the issue is that in some aggro heavy, or very random meta games the Mages just are not the best card for the maindeck slot.

Obfuscate Freely
04-20-2006, 02:49 AM
I have to counter this point of moving Meddling Mages to the board in the white based Grow deck. They are just too important not to maindeck at all. Sometimes they do prove not to be too helpful, but thats why you have a sideboard built and you can always opt to side these creatures out.
I utilize my sideboard space for cards that, while powerful in certain matchups, are worse than what they replace in the majority of important matchups. Meddling Mage is one of those cards.

Letting the other player not have a key threat when you can protect the mage with countermagic seems to be a very solid gameplan in most scenerios.
That is quite a specious argument. Using (playing and protecting) Meddling Mage to shut down "a key threat" can be very effective, but doing so represents a substantial investment in both cards and mana. In many cases, this investment is clearly prohibitive. Even in situations in which the tactic is effective, it will often be inferior to other options, including the options granted by whatever cards Mage replaces in the decklist. In other words, and in the most important terms, maindecking Mages will lose you more games than it will win.


If you think the mage really isn't that good, then maybe playing Grow with the red splash would suite your needs much better. Just a suggestion.
Insinuating that my failure to maindeck Meddling Mage is indicative of some sort of flaw I have as a player is cute. I'll be more direct, though; I think you display a fundamental lack of understanding about Gro, the format, and the game. Your arguments are general and vague, which to me suggests that they are more the product of things others have said than your own testing and experience. Perhaps you should stick to the Affinity thread.

dazed and confused
04-20-2006, 01:05 PM
Ok well i was asked to elaberate on my decklist as to why i was running what i was running and why i preffer the slower vession i came up with.

The reason why i played my decklist the way it was is because of my metta, I play against alot of GOOD players and against alot of verriety or decks, from madness - 1.5 hunted deck wich is quite fun and powerfull. The players I play are quite skilled and dont make many if any stupid mistakes and can usualy turn the match in thier favor with skill. There have always been some cards that possed a major problem or ruined my deck like Jitte on a troll ascetic since there is no getting rid of it and the regenerating ( was played in RG survival in my metta where even if i counter he had whitness and other recurring cards. I found my decklist ( found 2 pages before this page ) was more controll and worked great and gave me even more answers with the draw and bounce and removal and counters mixed with beats. I had alot of type 1 players and 1.5 players question and help revamp the deck and every friday when we play ( mishras in vancouver Canada ) i make top 4 and usualy win.

I did look at the other decks and was playing with mongoos and some other of the cards you were all discussing and yes i did end up taking out wish and echoing truth. The wish i dont miss at all even if i do miss getting the one of answers in my sideboard ( with no wish my side board had to change big time but i dont have time to re write it atm ) but the echoing truth is REALY REALY being missed where i would have bounced what i needed to and won ( example being bounce 2 birds of paradice and swing for the win ) i still say try echoing truth and see if you can see how good it can be.

And to all who want to reply please do because the better this deck can get the better for me since i am going to washington state and playing for the duels with one of the 3 decks i have and this one is one of the 3 and i dont mind critisism cause thats how i learn.

Any other questions about the deck needed answering just let me know what you want to know about or what you want to know why i have it in there and i will try to explain why i have it there and how its helped me win almost every 1.5 tourney i have played ( thats been about 20 tourneys even if they are just friday night 1.5 they are competative and people bring thier a-game as if its a tourney for a beta black lotus )

I hope i havce answered some of the questions about my decklist from earlier and i WILL try to get on here to write a list of my changes like mongoos in main and mage in board as well as taking cunning wish out

This is IMPOSSIBLE to read. There are too many typos and spelling errors, and too few periods and commas. If you plan on posting on this site, please do so in a coherent and clear manner.

-PR

threetonsflax
04-20-2006, 03:07 PM
The reason that I originally ran UGr is because of the prevalence of goblins and that lack of significant combo (at the time). With more of that coming in to my meta I was considering going to white specifically for Mage. Swords are great, but bears/geese and burn give me a pretty good handle on aggro. Why white at all then? Is it just a choice between red and black? This isn't meant as a swipe at UGw--as I said I've been testing it--but in the absence of a combo-heavy meta should I really be considering white?

Nightmare
04-20-2006, 03:21 PM
The reason that I originally ran UGr is because of the prevalence of goblins and that lack of significant combo (at the time). With more of that coming in to my meta I was considering going to white specifically for Mage. Swords are great, but bears/geese and burn give me a pretty good handle on aggro. Why white at all then? Is it just a choice between red and black? This isn't meant as a swipe at UGw--as I said I've been testing it--but in the absence of a combo-heavy meta should I really be considering white?Enforcer, Enforcer, Enforcer, Enforcer, Enforcer. Swords, Swords, Swords, Swords, Swords. Sideboard, Sideboard, Sideboard, Sideboard, Sideboard.

AnwarA101
04-20-2006, 03:27 PM
Mystic Enforcer is a huge threat in the mirror as well as against any deck really. The other huge reason is probably Swords as well as Nantuko Monastry. Which as a sideboard option against control gives you more threats which are probably very needed against decks like Rifter. But you are definitely right about the Red version being better against aggro. Pyroclasm is ridiculously good against aggro.

Shriekmaw
04-20-2006, 06:27 PM
I would just like to respond to Obfuscate Freely regarding his last post on Meddling Mage. The main reason I thought White was a good color to run in Grow is that it gives you access to Swords to Plowshares, Mystic Enforcer, and Meddling Mage in the main deck. If you not running Meddling Mage then you must feel that adding some more draw spells is better suited for the deck than a creature, which at times is very fragile in the current metagame.

Iím not staying that youíre not a good player to not play Meddling Mage, because the fact is, youíre a very good player. My feelings are that Meddling Mage has helped me a great deal in the matches Iíve played when I did in fact play White Grow. I respect your opinion, but just feel differently about Meddling Mage being in the main deck. I currently run 12 draw spells with 6 fetch lands, which I feel is enough at the moment in terms of draw and shuffle effects.

I do admit I play more aggressive decks than control, but Iím also a pretty good player in this format, you call Legacy. :smile:

Obfuscate Freely
04-20-2006, 07:43 PM
I would just like to respond to Obfuscate Freely regarding his last post on Meddling Mage. The main reason I thought White was a good color to run in Grow is that it gives you access to Swords to Plowshares, Mystic Enforcer, and Meddling Mage in the main deck. If you not running Meddling Mage then you must feel that adding some more draw spells is better suited for the deck than a creature, which at times is very fragile in the current metagame.

Iím not staying that youíre not a good player to not play Meddling Mage, because the fact is, youíre a very good player. My feelings are that Meddling Mage has helped me a great deal in the matches Iíve played when I did in fact play White Grow. I respect your opinion, but just feel differently about Meddling Mage being in the main deck. I currently run 12 draw spells with 6 fetch lands, which I feel is enough at the moment in terms of draw and shuffle effects.

I do admit I play more aggressive decks than control, but Iím also a pretty good player in this format, you call Legacy. :smile:
I think I owe you an apology for misunderstanding your post and for responding with unwarranted vitriol. I appreciate you accepting that our opinions are simply different; I am willing to agree to disagree if that's the best conclusion we can come to.

However, I honestly would like to explore this issue a little more. Since you mention that Mage has been particularly helpful in what experience you've had with Gro, could you elaborate a little on what sort of decks you've played against?

I've found that Meddling Mage improves a few already-favorable matchups (combo, mostly), but is detrimental in most other matchups, including the more difficult and unfavorable ones. If you disagree with this, maybe we can discuss some specific matchups you feel that Mage is strong in that I do not.

On the other hand, if you've found Mage to be optimal just because your metagame is inundated with combo decks, we don't have anything to debate.

Shriekmaw
04-20-2006, 08:17 PM
I would like to start out by giving the list that Iíve been recently testing and then go through some matchups were Meddling Mage is good and bad.

3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Plain
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Pithing Needle
3 Counterspell
4 Predict
4 Meddling Mage
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
2 Mystic Enforcer

Deadguy Ale

I have found that Meddling Mage does help in this matchup by naming a key card, depending on the current situation. A lot of times this forces him in finding a way to kill the mage somehow. In my opinion, this is a tough matchup but by main decking both mage and needle it helps quite a bit in game 1.

Red Grow (Bryant Cook)

He runs 12 burn spells, so Meddling Mage is pretty crappy in this matchup. I did get lucky a few times by naming one of his burn spells that he had in his hand which help me with the game. This is a matchup were mage goes out in games 2 and 3 as he is just too easy to kill for the Red Grow player.

Solidarity

As we all know this is a combo deck and mage helps out a lot. I donít think I need to go into any more detail on this matchup as youíve played it quite a bit.

Angel Stompy

A tough matchup for any Grow deck, but at times Meddling Mage is an effective weapon. I do believe needles are really good in this matchup as you take away their equipment. I would rate mage as sub-optimal in this match.

RGSA

I have found Meddling Mage and Pithing Needle to be key in winning at least game 1. The games Iíve played against this deck Mage have been key for me. You have mage, swords, and needle which are all pretty bad for them. I donít find this matchup to be particular tough.

Goblins

I do agree that Meddling Mage is bad in this matchup and goes out games 2 and 3. At least he is a blocker if that in this matchup.

Getsickanddie
04-20-2006, 11:54 PM
I would like to start out by giving the list that Iíve been recently testing and then go through some matchups were Meddling Mage is good and bad.

3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Plain
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Pithing Needle
3 Counterspell
4 Predict
4 Meddling Mage
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
2 Mystic Enforcer

Deadguy Ale

I have found that Meddling Mage does help in this matchup by naming a key card, depending on the current situation. A lot of times this forces him in finding a way to kill the mage somehow. In my opinion, this is a tough matchup but by main decking both mage and needle it helps quite a bit in game 1.

Red Grow (Bryant Cook)

He runs 12 burn spells, so Meddling Mage is pretty crappy in this matchup. I did get lucky a few times by naming one of his burn spells that he had in his hand which help me with the game. This is a matchup were mage goes out in games 2 and 3 as he is just too easy to kill for the Red Grow player.

Solidarity

As we all know this is a combo deck and mage helps out a lot. I donít think I need to go into any more detail on this matchup as youíve played it quite a bit.

Angel Stompy

A tough matchup for any Grow deck, but at times Meddling Mage is an effective weapon. I do believe needles are really good in this matchup as you take away their equipment. I would rate mage as sub-optimal in this match.

RGSA

I have found Meddling Mage and Pithing Needle to be key in winning at least game 1. The games Iíve played against this deck Mage have been key for me. You have mage, swords, and needle which are all pretty bad for them. I donít find this matchup to be particular tough.

Goblins

I do agree that Meddling Mage is bad in this matchup and goes out games 2 and 3. At least he is a blocker if that in this matchup.

I generally agree with your evaluations on the matchups but lets look at the Syracuse metagame for an example. We only have one RGSA player, one mediocre solidarity player, and zero deadguy ale decks. What we do have is a plethora of U/G/R gro,U/G/b gro, R/G beats (garv.dec. etc), Burn, Fish, Angel Stompy (when you play it),Goblins, and all sorts of really random weenie, and black decks. Combo is scarce, and control is rarely a factor (umm bad turboland builds anyone?).

Bane of the Living
04-21-2006, 07:49 AM
Id actually like to side with the banned guy for a minute here. 3-4 Meddling Mages main havent been too bad in my meta either. We have alot of players that play the same decks over and over. We have Aluren, Solidarity, and Tendrils combo somewhat regularly at my store. I can count on a couple survival decks or rifter will rear its head and threaten me with Humility. There are usually only 2 out of 20 something people playing gobs so mage isnt terrible. I havent tested the mirror match with Enforcers though, Id imagine that makes a huge difference as Obfus stated.

Bryant Cook
04-21-2006, 03:17 PM
I'm honored, I have my own section in the metagame. People think about me bashing thier face. Anywho if you're cutting meddling mage the only reason to run white besides swords, why play it at all? Monestary is techy I'll give you that but it's not needed. You could just play red, and have a great match-up against the aggro dominated meta-game. Not to mention Dragon is 10x better than enforcer because Dragon at worst is a 7/5. If it wasn't for Phil Stolze I would of been in top 8 at the duel land draft... damn him.

Nightmare
04-21-2006, 03:34 PM
At worst, Dragon is a 2/2. If I were going to play a different version of Gro, I'd play black.

Bryant Cook
04-21-2006, 03:39 PM
At worst, Dragon is a 2/2. If I were going to play a different version of Gro, I'd play black.
2/2 flyer, bitch, how 'bout d'em apples. Sorry, forgot about threshold, but then again who the fuck cast thier fattie without threshold?

Mad Zur
04-21-2006, 06:35 PM
Anywho if you're cutting meddling mage the only reason to run white besides swords, why play it at all? I dunno, maybe Swords? Also, Mages in the board are still better against any deck you want them against than no Mages at all.

Not to mention Dragon is 10x better than enforcer because Dragon at worst is a 7/5. Enforcer is much better against black decks.

If it wasn't for Phil Stolze I would of been in top 8 at the duel land draft... damn him. Angel Stompy is a good example of a matchup that is more comfortable for the white build even without Mages.

It looks like the advantages of splashing white are very minor, but the fact is that the disadvantages are no more significant. It's still the same deck either way.

Bryant Cook
04-21-2006, 06:44 PM
I dunno, maybe Swords? Also, Mages in the board are still better against any deck you want them against than no Mages at all.
Enforcer is much better against black decks.
Angel Stompy is a good example of a matchup that is more comfortable for the white build even without Mages.

It looks like the advantages of splashing white are very minor, but the fact is that the disadvantages are no more significant. It's still the same deck either way.
I had no idea that mystic inforcer had pro-black and fledging dragon didn't, thank you for pointing out the worst arguement ever. As for swords I already mentioned it, I'm sure Mr.Nightmare will agree with me on this but Gro's sb is too tight for it to be boarding 4x meddling mage. I completely agree with your last sentence and many people forget this.

Mad Zur
04-21-2006, 07:21 PM
I had no idea that mystic inforcer had pro-black and fledging dragon didn't, thank you for pointing out the worst arguement ever. Pro-black is gamebreaking against Deadguy, the pseudo-mirror, and other black decks like Suicide. Dragon is not always better (and when it is, it's rarely to the same degree).

As for swords I already mentioned it, You asked for reasons to play white other than Mage. Swords is a very good one.

I'm sure Mr.Nightmare will agree with me on this but Gro's sb is too tight for it to be boarding 4x meddling mage. What do you think should replace it?

Shriekmaw
04-21-2006, 07:35 PM
White does give you swords and I do believe that Enforcer is better than Dragon for the fact it gives you the advantage against Deadguy Ale and Grow with the black splash. It just seems to me that Fledging Dragon is too vulnerable in most situations.

If I wasn't playing Meddling Mage, I would probably go with another card drawer in the deck since they gives you an advantage. I would go with Portent as that card drawer. I'm a fan of Meddling Mage, but if I wasn't playing it, Portent would go in its place giving you 10 creatures and 16 card drawing effects, which should give you an advantage in most scenerios.

When you talking to Wastedlife, he does run 12 burn spells which I believe is too many, but has done well for him in the past. Just a little side note if you weren't aware.

Angel of Despair
04-29-2006, 05:17 PM
Here is the Threshold deck that I play.

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Yavimaya Coast
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Meddling Mage
4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose


4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Counterspell
2 Mental Note
2 Spy Network
2 Daze
2 Worship
2 Mana Leak
2 Predict

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Naturalize
1 Tividar's Crusade
I'd be Interested to hear what people have to say about it.

tivadar
04-29-2006, 05:50 PM
Here is the Threshold deck that I play.

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Yavimaya Coast
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Meddling Mage
4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose


4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Counterspell
2 Mental Note
2 Spy Network
2 Daze
2 Worship
2 Mana Leak
2 Predict

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Naturalize
1 Tividar's Crusade
I'd be Interested to hear what people have to say about it.

I'd definetly drop Spy Network, it gives you card disadvantage, which is something you really don't want to have. Plus looking at your opponent's hand really isn't that big of an advantage, even with meddling mage. Given some time (and some pre-gaming) you should know what your opponent plays from his first hand or before and be able to name appropriately. I'd also suggest running at least 1 enforcer.

Finally, and this is just a comment in general. I really don't like how this deck has moved towards nearly everything being 1 to cast. It may speed up the aggro end of the deck, but I really do believe it can hurt the deck overall. Chalice seems to be finding a place in more and more decks now.

Angel of Despair
04-29-2006, 08:10 PM
I do have a valid reason for running Spy Network. I am pretty new to this format, so I don't really know the cards well. I plan on buying a Mystic Enforcer for my deck, but for right now this is all I have. I am also short 2 Trops. Thanks for the feedback though.

Eldariel
04-29-2006, 08:13 PM
I do have a valid reason for running Spy Network. I am pretty new to this format, so I don't really know the cards well. I plan on buying a Mystic Enforcer for my deck, but for right now this is all I have. I am also short 2 Trops. Thanks for the feedback though.

If you're really willing to pay that much for information, try Peek. It doesn't cost you a card, so you get the information in the lieu of the Threshold-plan. You lose a bit in terms of card selection though. But yea, Peek definately over Spy Network if you want the information so bad.

Brushwagg
04-29-2006, 09:03 PM
You could also move Worship to the SB and add in the last 2 Predict or Mental Note(which ever you prefer). This should help keep your hand full and speed up Threshold.


If you're really willing to pay that much for information, try Peek.

QFT!

AnwarA101
05-31-2006, 09:12 PM
I was considering running a bit of a red splash in the white version of Gro to help the aggro matchup. Specifically I wanted to cut Tivadar's Crusade from my sideboard and add Pyroclasm. There are numerous aggro decks in Legacy that can possible give Gro trouble and Tivadar's Crusade just seems too narrow to run. My version would contain no main deck red cards. Simply board 4 Pyroclasm instead of Tivadar's Crusade. My main concern is running no basics in the deck. While this is worrisome I think the lack of any Landstill or other decks running Wasteland recursion it seems like less of risk.

Brushwagg
05-31-2006, 10:10 PM
I was considering running a bit of a red splash in the white version of Gro to help the aggro matchup. Specifically I wanted to cut Tivadar's Crusade from my sideboard and add Pyroclasm. There are numerous aggro decks in Legacy that can possible give Gro trouble and Tivadar's Crusade just seems too narrow to run. My version would contain no main deck red cards. Simply board 4 Pyroclasm instead of Tivadar's Crusade. My main concern is running no basics in the deck. While this is worrisome I think the lack of any Landstill or other decks running Wasteland recursion it seems like less of risk.

It's not really the Wasteland recursion, it's just Plain Wasteland that is the problem. Wrath of God might fit better in the Tivadar's Crusade slot, if your worried about aggro. It stays in color, costs the same as Tivadar's Crusade, and is helpful in NON-Goblin aggro match.

Nightmare
06-01-2006, 08:00 AM
It's not really the Wasteland recursion, it's just Plain Wasteland that is the problem. Wrath of God might fit better in the Tivadar's Crusade slot, if your worried about aggro. It stays in color, costs the same as Tivadar's Crusade, and is helpful in NON-Goblin aggro match.Tivadar's Crusade costs 1WW. Wrath costs 2WW. Pyroclasm costs 1R.

Ewokslayer
06-01-2006, 08:05 AM
It's not really the Wasteland recursion, it's just Plain Wasteland that is the problem. Wrath of God might fit better in the Tivadar's Crusade slot, if your worried about aggro. It stays in color, costs the same as Tivadar's Crusade, and is helpful in NON-Goblin aggro match.

Wrath of God and Tivadar's Crusade do NOT cost the same.


I was considering running a bit of a red splash in the white version of Gro to help the aggro matchup. Specifically I wanted to cut Tivadar's Crusade from my sideboard and add Pyroclasm. There are numerous aggro decks in Legacy that can possible give Gro trouble and Tivadar's Crusade just seems too narrow to run. My version would contain no main deck red cards. Simply board 4 Pyroclasm instead of Tivadar's Crusade. My main concern is running no basics in the deck. While this is worrisome I think the lack of any Landstill or other decks running Wasteland recursion it seems like less of risk.

What decks do you see Pyroclasm being good against anyway, Elves? Most Zoo decks aren't particularly hurt by the card. I would think something like FTK would be better against Zoo like decks.

AnwarA101
06-01-2006, 11:39 AM
What decks do you see Pyroclasm being good against anyway, Elves? Most Zoo decks aren't particularly hurt by the card. I would think something like FTK would be better against Zoo like decks.

Pyroclasm would be better against Elves and perhaps Zoo to some degree, but I guess that it is less than stellar there. It also seems less than stellar against Angel Stompy. I was also considering Parallax Wave in the Crusade spot. I've seen it be crazy in Angel Stompy and the only concern is the 4cc.

BoardinCharlie
06-01-2006, 04:18 PM
One of the decks worst matchups in my mind is Deadguy Ale.... and to be honest you get to a ponit where you stall out because they are eating at your yard and you have a pro black guy out. In many other instances against this deck beside that one I mentioend... pyroclasm kills every creature in that deck *sometimes shade*. Which is a very necessary use of possible card advantage. A plus is it only requires on color as well.

Brushwagg
06-01-2006, 10:02 PM
Tivadar's Crusade costs 1WW. Wrath costs 2WW. Pyroclasm costs 1R.


Oops my bad, I thought Tivadar's Crusade cost 2WW.
At any rate I would probably go with WOG if your facing alot of random aggro that is giving you problems. The biggest draw is the CC. But it doesn't go out of color and stuff can't regenerate, like they can with Pyroclasm.

Phantom
06-02-2006, 03:47 PM
Has anyone had any luck with only running 1 Enforcer mainboard? I cut down to one recently and am loving it (can't comment on how it works in Red splash). Basically, their are few matchups where I need it to win, but I can dig for it when I want it, and bury or dump it in the yard when I don't (I run Serum Visions, Brainstorm, Predict, and Mental Note). I really felt that 2 was too many since I kept getting stuck with one in my hand when I didn't want it, which is a pretty big deal with a deck like this.

BlindMage
06-02-2006, 04:04 PM
If you want a pyroclasm effect in the white splash, you can always use Hail Storm. Personally, I sideboard a split between Hail Storm and Engineered Explosives.

Bardo
06-02-2006, 04:09 PM
Has anyone had any luck with only running 1 Enforcer mainboard? I cut down to one recently and am loving it (can't comment on how it works in Red splash). Basically, their are few matchups where I need it to win, but I can dig for it when I want it, and bury or dump it in the yard when I don't (I run Serum Visions, Brainstorm, Predict, and Mental Note). I really felt that 2 was too many since I kept getting stuck with one in my hand when I didn't want it, which is a pretty big deal with a deck like this.
I've gone down to one Enforcer in the maindeck, plus another in the side, and the deck flows a little better. To be honest, I can see him coming out altogether sometime soon. There are some matches where he's the nutz, but too many others when he's just wasted space and unnecessary.

Here's my current list:

Legacy UGW Threshold
by Bardo

4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Meddling Mage
1 Mystic Enforcer

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

sb 4 Hydroblast
sb 3 Armageddon
sb 2 Tivadar's Crusade
sb 2 Worship
sb 2 Naturalize
sb 1 Mystic Enforcer
sb 1 Engineered Explosives

I don't know if that's the definitive list, but it is really freaking good.

As for the pseudo-Red splash, I flirted with this sideboard last month:

sb 3 Armageddon
sb 3 Pyroclasm
sb 2 Hydroblast
sb 2 Pyroblast
sb 2 Worship
sb 2 Naturalize
sb 1 Volcanic Island

In the end I figured it wasn't worth it. One of the beautiful things about this deck is the consistency and stability of the mana, and going the 4c route didn't seem worth it. But I'm not sure that I'm right.

Obfuscate Freely
06-02-2006, 06:11 PM
Cutting Enforcers hurts the mirror match and any control matchup, since both of those usually involve an attrition war over threats and removal.

Wrath of God is terrible because it has poor synergy with your own creatures, which you really don't want to hold back, and which are Gro's best way to force an opponent to overextend. Added to this is the card's casting cost of 2WW, which is very prohibitive for a removal spell.

Anwar, if you want a more versatile creature hoser, I think that Worship, Hail Storm, or Dueling Grounds would be good things to look at before splashing a fourth color. If none of those prove effective, you may want to try switching to a UGb build, which gives you Engineered Plague, Infest, and a multitude of spot removal options, as well as Virtue's Ruin if you're concerned with Angel Stompy.

Bardo, I really dislike the look of your draw engine. Why are you still running Mental Note? It looks like your deck will run out of cantrips much quicker than other builds. For comparison's sake, you can find the last list I used here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=68085&postcount=493). Would you mind explaining what advantages you think your list has over that one?

I wouldn't really play the deck without at least 15 draw spells, and I haven't regretted going up to 16 at all. Portent is extremely effective at optimizing your draws, even if it is a slowtrip, and running such an extensive cantrip base keeps me confident in my 17-land manabase.

I've actually been thinking about finding room for another Enforcer, to improve the matchups I mentioned above. Potential casualties are Counterspell #3 and Portent #4.

urza_insane
06-03-2006, 12:45 AM
I play a list very similar to Bardo's (2/3 cards off) and love the Cantrip Engine. Mental Note gives this deck a very noticeable speed boost against aggro. I wasn't aware that it had fallen out of style as it seems to have been the norm since Lille. It can't be used as a dig engine (which sucks), but I haven't found this deck to really need more than Brainstorm and Serum Visions. Maybe in a creature light build this is different (I run 14 creatures).

I'm sure Bardo can explain this better than I can though.

Anyways, I'm very interested in the fact that you don't maindeck Meddling Mage. (and only board 3) I have found this card to be one of the stronger cards in the deck and a primary reason for the white splash. What are your reasons for running white in the deck instead of Red? With your cantrip engine it would also be very easy to run the Black splash adding Dark Confidant over Predict.

Either way, both versions of the deck are very good and have had success. I guess it just means Threshold in general is a damn good deck!

Bardo
06-03-2006, 01:46 PM
Cutting Enforcers hurts the mirror match and any control matchup, since both of those usually involve an attrition war over threats and removal.

Enforcer is indeed awesome in the mirror, but it's somewhat of a "metagame call." Like, in the last four tournaments I've taken Threshold to, I've played the mirror once, and there Enforcer was a game-buster. Against Control, Mongoose seems to be the key, since Enforcer, at four mana, is much easier to counter and is an easy StP target.

But in the reports I read from the Northeast and Virginia, it seems a lot of people are playing Threshold, so I can see keeping at least one in the deck since the mirror is not a remote possibility in those regions.


Bardo, I really dislike the look of your draw engine. Why are you still running Mental Note? It looks like your deck will run out of cantrips much quicker than other builds. For comparison's sake, you can find the last list I used here. Would you mind explaining what advantages you think your list has over that one?

Actually, once I started playing Mental Note (back in December) I haven't dropped them.

Also, before I go any further I'd like to say that I have no interest in convincing you of the "rightness" of my card decisions or the "wrongness" of yours. This is for two reasons: 1) the power differential of the cantips (excepts Brainstorm) is so minor it's like debating the hotness of two really hot chicks. And [cantip a] might be hotter in [situation a], and vice versa with [situation b]. Secondly, I agree with Urza Insane's suggestion that the form of Threshold may be strong enough that individual card differences on the cantips not might matter all that much.

With that out of the way, I don't think the deck really needs more than 12 cantrips, but if you go as low as 12, then you need to run Mental Note. The advantages of running 12 cantips is that you get to run more cards that "do something."

In my case, compared to your list, I have 4 maindeck Meddling Magi, which I think are superior to your Portent or whatever, since he's effectively a counterspell, chump blocker and beater all-in-one. Otherwise, I've swapped one of your Pithing Needles for an Engineered Explosives, since that effectively acts a "Punishment" (from Crime // Punishment) and is a critter-removal and maindeck Disenchant. Or you can just pop it for 0 for threshold purposes.

As for 12 cantips, I think the first place Lille deck demonstrated the acceptability and reliability of that many draw spells.

For reference (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gplill05/t8decks).

I mean to get through 15 rounds in a field of almost 950 people in probably the most competitive Legacy event to date has to be worth something.

Note Summersberger's cantrip and creature base:

4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note

4 Meddling Mage
4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose

Twelve draw spells (4 Mental Note), twelve critters (4 Meddling Mage and nothing above 2 mana).


I wouldn't really play the deck without at least 15 draw spells, and I haven't regretted going up to 16 at all. Portent is extremely effective at optimizing your draws, even if it is a slowtrip, and running such an extensive cantrip base keeps me confident in my 17-land manabase.

I've been running 18 lands all along (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=19834.msg320077#msg320077), and the 3 Threshold decks that T8'd Lille are also running 18, so I feel somewhat validated there. Also, only one of the Philly T8 Thresh decks ran 17 (Goodman's), the other two ran 18 land.

Anyway, I've been up to 16 cantips, and think that's fine in GAT or in any version of Thresh that runs Quirion Dryad, but the problem when you get above 14 cantips, in my experience, is that the deck becomes somewhat hollow, and there's a tendency to draw into more an more irrelevant cantips when you really need action and not more draw spells--even though it feels like you're doing something (since you're tapping mana and drawing cards). I mean the point of the cantips is to advance you to the parts of the deck that actually do something, whether they be dudes, counters or removal. So going to 12 cantips lets you cram in more things that "do something," but then you really want Mental Note to make sure you hit threshold early.

I've explained how awesome Mental Note is in this deck like 20 pages ago, but briefly, it practically assures threshold by turn 3, and lets you recover from a Tormod's Crypt activation with ease. It can be used as manipulation after Brainstorm if you don't have a fetchland on the board. You know EOT Brainstorm, place two lands back on top of your library and dredge them away during your upkeep with Mental Note--but that's more a "gravy play."

That's pretty much all I have to say. The deck is durable and flexible enough that variations, as long as they're well reasoned and tested, don't make for inferiority, necessarily.

Obfuscate Freely
06-04-2006, 07:23 PM
Enforcer is indeed awesome in the mirror, but it's somewhat of a "metagame call." Like, in the last four tournaments I've taken Threshold to, I've played the mirror once, and there Enforcer was a game-buster. Against Control, Mongoose seems to be the key, since Enforcer, at four mana, is much easier to counter and is an easy StP target.

But in the reports I read from the Northeast and Virginia, it seems a lot of people are playing Threshold, so I can see keeping at least one in the deck since the mirror is not a remote possibility in those regions.
Simply having more threats is the key. Yes, you have to be careful about when you play Enforcer against counters and removal, but he is an incredibly strong play against an opponent who's resources appear temporarily exhausted.

It bears mentioning that Mystic Enforcer is also desirable in many other matchups, from RGSA to Angel Stompy. I only board the card out against combo decks (which are highly favorable, anyway), and maybe Goblins.


Also, before I go any further I'd like to say that I have no interest in convincing you of the "rightness" of my card decisions or the "wrongness" of yours. This is for two reasons: 1) the power differential of the cantips (excepts Brainstorm) is so minor it's like debating the hotness of two really hot chicks. And [cantip a] might be hotter in [situation a], and vice versa with [situation b]. Secondly, I agree with Urza Insane's suggestion that the form of Threshold may be strong enough that individual card differences on the cantips not might matter all that much.
This is an internet discussion forum that exists for the purpose of developing and tweaking decks to make them better. It invalidates our entire dialogue for you to elude debate because the deck is "strong enough."

I also disagree that the cantrip power levels are minor. Mental Note isn't in the same league as the other cantrips, and that includes Portent. Brainstorm and Serum Visions let you see three cards, which is approximately three times as many as the one card Mental Note lets you look at. Portent actually lets you see four cards if you need it to.


With that out of the way, I don't think the deck really needs more than 12 cantrips, but if you go as low as 12, then you need to run Mental Note. The advantages of running 12 cantips is that you get to run more cards that "do something."
If you need to draw Mental Note to reach threshold, what happens when you don't draw Mental Note?

Of course, if Mental Note is necessary with only 12 draw spells, I will argue that that alone is a good reason to run more.


In my case, compared to your list, I have 4 maindeck Meddling Magi, which I think are superior to your Portent or whatever, since he's effectively a counterspell, chump blocker and beater all-in-one.
"Or whatever?"

Meddling Mage is a preemptive counterspell that gets answered by creature removal. I'd rather play Portent and find a Force or Counterspell.

Chump blockers are bad. I'd rather play Portent and find a removal spell or an actual blocker.

2/2s are not adequate beaters in this format. I'd rather play Portent and find a Nimble Mongoose or a Werebear.


Otherwise, I've swapped one of your Pithing Needles for an Engineered Explosives, since that effectively acts a "Punishment" (from Crime // Punishment) and is a critter-removal and maindeck Disenchant. Or you can just pop it for 0 for threshold purposes.
Explosives is a defensible card, but it requires a pretty heavy mana investment and has poor synergy with your own permanents. It seems much worse than Pithing Needle in most matchups. The exception to this is the mirror match, where Explosives is a strong tool, although they can Pithing Needle it if they know you have it.


As for 12 cantips, I think the first place Lille deck demonstrated the acceptability and reliability of that many draw spells.

For reference (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gplill05/t8decks).

I mean to get through 15 rounds in a field of almost 950 people in probably the most competitive Legacy event to date has to be worth something.

Note Summersberger's cantrip and creature base:

4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note

4 Meddling Mage
4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose

Twelve draw spells (4 Mental Note), twelve critters (4 Meddling Mage and nothing above 2 mana).
The second-place deck (Krutil) only played 11 draw spells, but he eschewed Mental Note for three Predicts.

The third-place deck (Labarre) ran 14 draw spells, sporting 3 each of Mental Note and Predict.

I'm not sure you can make any definitive conclusions based off of those results. All 3 decks were considerably different than your list is now. If you trust Summersberger's cantrip base and creature base, why aren't you running 4 colors? Do you think that Krutil's maindeck Worship or Labarre's Isochron Scepters could be optimal?


I've been running 18 lands all along (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=19834.msg320077#msg320077), and the 3 Threshold decks that T8'd Lille are also running 18, so I feel somewhat validated there. Also, only one of the Philly T8 Thresh decks ran 17 (Goodman's), the other two ran 18 land.
I'm fairly certain the land count discrepancies stem from the differences in our cantrip bases. Notice that Goodman ran 15 cantrips. Lam Phan also ran 15, but Accumulated Knowledge stretched his curve and hurt is early game manipulation, so it still makes sense that he ran 18 lands.


Anyway, I've been up to 16 cantips, and think that's fine in GAT or in any version of Thresh that runs Quirion Dryad, but the problem when you get above 14 cantips, in my experience, is that the deck becomes somewhat hollow, and there's a tendency to draw into more an more irrelevant cantips when you really need action and not more draw spells--even though it feels like you're doing something (since you're tapping mana and drawing cards).
I am more than happy to continually play draw spells throughout the entire game.


I mean the point of the cantips is to advance you to the parts of the deck that actually do something, whether they be dudes, counters or removal.
You view cantrips significantly differently than I do. I want them to not only find me business spells, but to also keep my hand stocked with business spells up until the end of the game.

Unless I am under tremendous pressure, I will almost always chain draw spells with the primary goal of finding more draw spells. Business spells pop up, almost incidentally, and I will take a break from playing cantrips to play those business spells as the situation warrants. However, maintaining card quality advantage through the midgame requires drawing through a lot of cards. Only once the endgame is in sight will I start eschewing extra draw spells for other things.

With this in mind, you should be able to understand why I've never felt the deck to be "hollow." Indeed, I think that the extra draw spells make the deck much more robust.


So going to 12 cantips lets you cram in more things that "do something," but then you really want Mental Note to make sure you hit threshold early.

I've explained how awesome Mental Note is in this deck like 20 pages ago, but briefly, it practically assures threshold by turn 3, and lets you recover from a Tormod's Crypt activation with ease. It can be used as manipulation after Brainstorm if you don't have a fetchland on the board. You know EOT Brainstorm, place two lands back on top of your library and dredge them away during your upkeep with Mental Note--but that's more a "gravy play."
One more time, reaching threshold with 15-16 draw spells is rarely difficult, but maintaining card quality advantage with Mental Note often is. It's effectiveness against Tormod's Crypt might be the absolute best argument for Mental Note's inclusion, but that alone doesn't make it worthwhile.

Neither does the card's synergy with Brainstorm, obviously.


That's pretty much all I have to say. The deck is durable and flexible enough that variations, as long as they're well reasoned and tested, don't make for inferiority, necessarily.
As a Gro proponent and player, I don't appreciate this attitude. Stating that the deck is good no matter how you build it is a good way to stifle innovation and development.

urza_insane
06-04-2006, 08:37 PM
This is an internet discussion forum that exists for the purpose of developing and tweaking decks to make them better. It invalidates our entire dialogue for you to elude debate because the deck is "strong enough."


As a Gro proponent and player, I don't appreciate this attitude. Stating that the deck is good no matter how you build it is a good way to stifle innovation and development.

I feel that there is a misunderstanding here, I doubt anybody thinks the deck is good enough as it is. I do believe, however, that there may not be a single optimal list of Threshold at this time - or that the power difference can't be quantified in any relevant terms. Threshold as a deck concept is "strong enough" that many different paths may be taken.


I also disagree that the cantrip power levels are minor. Mental Note isn't in the same league as the other cantrips, and that includes Portent. Brainstorm and Serum Visions let you see three cards, which is approximately three times as many as the one card Mental Note lets you look at. Portent actually lets you see four cards if you need it to.

I don't feel there is any one "right" cantrip (aside from Serum and Brainstorm). Both Portent/Predict and Mental Note have obvious strengths and weaknesses. Mental Note isn't ment to dig for cards though, its sole purpose is to add to the grave. In Brados list I've found that there is little need to dig for anything since the deck is very redundant. I also feel that Bardo's 12 cantrip argument is very valid. If the deck is only playing 12 cantrips Mental Note should be a 4-of. So the real disagreement is how many cantrips should be run.

With that in mind, the argument becomes which is more valueable? The 16 cantrip engine or the 12 cantrips and Meddling Mage (or any other extra 4-of)? That's something I'm not sure of. My general feeling is that Mage adds another threat to the table (even if it is just a 2/2) that has the potential to seriously screw up somebodys plans.


EDIT:

I think IBA hit the nail on the head in the "Most Hated Cards" thread. He explains what Bardo ment by the deck being "hollow":


I think what actually keeps Gro in check is that at the heart of it, it runs like 18 actual cards, 8 or 10 of which are reactive.

Evil Roopey
06-04-2006, 10:06 PM
I just realized, after Alix posted his theories on the deck, why we are still having the arguement of Mental Note vs. othe slower cantrips. It seems that Alix has a completely different view of the deck. According to his last post, his whole intention throughout a game is to cycle through cantrips in order to find more cantrips, threats, and counters. Me on the other hand play the deck very similar to the way I play Fish: Use my early game advantages to get into the midgame in a position that opponent will not be able to recover from. Now with that in mind, which of these plans is better? The more aggresive route or the slower "more robust" route? I think that should be the agruement being held when questioning cantrip choices.

My Name Is Scott
06-05-2006, 01:51 AM
Now with that in mind, which of these plans is better?
If only there were some way (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=67947&postcount=239) to measure it...

Evil Roopey
06-05-2006, 03:58 AM
Your arguement is completely irrelevant. The top 3 decks at Lille ran Mental Note to play the same way I do.

Mad Zur
06-05-2006, 04:50 AM
That is incorrect. Mental Note was only played in two of the three, as was Predict. There was in fact only one more Mental Note than Predict in the top eight.

Tournament results that disagree with you are not "completely irrelevant". It is also relevant that two out of three Gro decks in the top eight at GP Philly had fifteen draw spells, including Predict but lacking Mental Note.

Evil Roopey
06-05-2006, 01:41 PM
That is incorrect. Mental Note was only played in two of the three, as was Predict. There was in fact only one more Mental Note than Predict in the top eight.

Tournament results that disagree with you are not "completely irrelevant". It is also relevant that two out of three Gro decks in the top eight at GP Philly had fifteen draw spells, including Predict but lacking Mental Note.

My easy explanation for that is because Philly was before Thresh was really worked on in high numbers. Philly was what started it all remember? Saying that there was a lack of Mental Note when the idea hadn't even been thrown around is, in fact, irrelevant.

But if you want to play this game, I'll play. The winning list of the biggest Legacy tournament to date ran 4 Mental Notes, but didn't run Predict. It's also interesting to note that the Mental Note version beat the Predict version in the finals of the tournament.

Using a tournament like the Dual Land Draft as a reference is, in my opinion, stupid when the only good Thresh players, that I know of, that were there ran Portent and Predict over Mental Note. This comes down to the question of, would they have done just as good with Note? We don't know the answer to that question. I would in fact make a wager that the NoVa players do not in fact have extensive testing with Mental Note like everyone else. I, the open minded guy that I am, have tested both versions quite thouroughly and have in fact opted for Note over Predict.

Note costs 1. Predict costs 2, twice as much as Mental Note, but is significantly more powerful. With that in mind, I think that the need to actually go through cantrips and pick up up needed cards is greater than wanting to be slower and actually gain card advantage. See where our veiws differ is in the fact that this deck does not need card advantage. It needs speed. The entire deck is based on tempo. You run "free counters" and cheap threats for this reason, and this reason alone. Why stretch it? There is no need.

AnwarA101
06-05-2006, 02:29 PM
Using a tournament like the Dual Land Draft as a reference is, in my opinion, stupid when the only good Thresh players, that I know of, that were there ran Portent and Predict over Mental Note. This comes down to the question of, would they have done just as good with Note? We don't know the answer to that question. I would in fact make a wager that the NoVa players do not in fact have extensive testing with Mental Note like everyone else. I, the open minded guy that I am, have tested both versions quite thouroughly and have in fact opted for Note over Predict.


I'm more than willing to admit that I have never played with Mental Note in Gro. But to some degree I've relied on people who know more about the deck than I do. I've never really been unhappy with Predict, but perhaps Mental Note could go through more extensive testing. I believe that ObFreely has done some testing with it.

Mad Zur
06-05-2006, 03:59 PM
My easy explanation for that is because Philly was before Thresh was really worked on in high numbers. Philly was what started it all remember? Saying that there was a lack of Mental Note when the idea hadn't even been thrown around is, in fact, irrelevant. It is indeed relevant to point out that the deck has performed very well without Mental Note.

But if you want to play this game, I'll play. The winning list of the biggest Legacy tournament to date ran 4 Mental Notes, but didn't run Predict. It's also interesting to note that the Mental Note version beat the Predict version in the finals of the tournament. It is also interesting to note that if you read the match coverage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gplill05/welcome#7), the difference didn't seem to come up at all. Or, if that's irrelevant too, it is also worth noting that one match is not the kind of data we use to make conclusions about specific card choices.

Using a tournament like the Dual Land Draft as a reference is, in my opinion, stupid when the only good Thresh players, that I know of, that were there ran Portent and Predict over Mental Note. This comes down to the question of, would they have done just as good with Note? We don't know the answer to that question. This argument works against you. There were 38 Predicts in the top 128 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gplill05/128decks) at GP Lille to 99 Mental Notes, and yet they ended up close to even in the top eight.

I would in fact make a wager that the NoVa players do not in fact have extensive testing with Mental Note like everyone else. I, the open minded guy that I am, have tested both versions quite thouroughly and have in fact opted for Note over Predict. Okay. I've tested both versions and have opted for Predict.

Note costs 1. Predict costs 2, twice as much as Mental Note, but is significantly more powerful. With that in mind, I think that the need to actually go through cantrips and pick up up needed cards is greater than wanting to be slower and actually gain card advantage. Drawing multiple cards is a great way to do this. In fact, Mental Note doesn't seem to help at all; Portent probably fits this strategy better.

See where our veiws differ is in the fact that this deck does not need card advantage. It needs speed. The entire deck is based on tempo. You run "free counters" and cheap threats for this reason, and this reason alone. Why stretch it? There is no need. The deck isn't based on tempo, it's based on efficiency. Cheap creatures and free counters let it use its mana efficiently, large creatures let it use its cards efficiently, and the draw engine lets it use its slots efficiently. The low counts of land, creatures, and answers require a strong draw engine to yield the best results. With strong manipulation, all of these counts are effectively increased beyond their practical limits. With weak manipulation, they cause inconsistency. In this deck, card advantage, and more importantly, card quality advantage, do win games against all the decks you're likely to face in this format.

kimberley
06-05-2006, 04:04 PM
I'm more than willing to admit that I have never played with Mental Note in Gro. But to some degree I've relied on people who know more about the deck than I do. I've never really been unhappy with Predict, but perhaps Mental Note could go through more extensive testing. I believe that ObFreely has done some testing with it.

I did some testing with Note vs. Predict during GP preparations. The odd thing about the results (which slightly favored Predict) was that, the lighter the tested version was, the better Predict ranked.
In NQGw with 12-14 creatures Mental Note had equivalent results.
In lighter variants of NQGw and standard versions of NQGr (-> Dragon, 4-6 Burn spells) Predict did slightly better than Note.
In very light and low curved versions of NQGr (8-12 Burn spells, Serendib, Drake or no finisher at all) Predict outclassed Note by a lot.

My conclusion was:
1st: You need a lot of creatures to actually profit from note (definatly more than 8 threshold dependants).
2nd: The lower the curve of your list is, the weaker is Note, due to the risks of simply running out of gas.

Obviously most of the decks i tested aggainst have changed by a fair bit since November, but i still work with that theory.

CavernNinja
06-05-2006, 10:42 PM
As far as I can recall we started the big gro blow up a few months before the GP when I took home a Jet. Ask Ridiculous_Hat...he started playing it after seeing it win some power and then top 8'd the GP.

As for the difference between Predict and Mental Note. There is rarely a time that the one mana less comes into play but there are many times where the extra card from Predict can help to pull you up in card advantage against the all out aggro decks of the format (yes stompy and burn still see play as much as I hate them). Flexibility is what Gro has going for it, it can either go the big time beat down route or it can play for the long game and win on card advantage and quality. Gro wants to play more controlling against decks like Goblins and Stompy but it wants to play aggro against decks like AS and Rifter. So putting in Mental Note cuts down on your options for beating decks and winning games.

tivadar
06-05-2006, 11:44 PM
As far as I can recall we started the big gro blow up a few months before the GP when I took home a Jet. Ask Ridiculous_Hat...he started playing it after seeing it win some power and then top 8'd the GP.

As for the difference between Predict and Mental Note. There is rarely a time that the one mana less comes into play but there are many times where the extra card from Predict can help to pull you up in card advantage against the all out aggro decks of the format (yes stompy and burn still see play as much as I hate them). Flexibility is what Gro has going for it, it can either go the big time beat down route or it can play for the long game and win on card advantage and quality. Gro wants to play more controlling against decks like Goblins and Stompy but it wants to play aggro against decks like AS and Rifter. So putting in Mental Note cuts down on your options for beating decks and winning games.

I'm an angel stompy player, and when I see mental note hit the table, I breath a sigh of relief. This is basically because then I know that gro won't be garnering card advantage through predict. I'm not sure what mental note is good against (though I'm sure it's good against a fair share of decks), but against a non-gobbo aggro deck, predict is just better because gro typically trades you 1 for 1, or sometimes 2 for 1 in your favor (if they need to force something). Typically, an aggro deck will have larger creatures than gro, which means that the aggro deck will have board advantage with the same number of cards in hand. Unless gro can do something to recoup this card disadvantage, they're up a creek. While BS/fetches/SV do a bit of this, predict is really the icing on the cake here.

Brushwagg
06-06-2006, 08:23 PM
I'm not a fan of Predict at all. I've been running Mental Note and have very few problems with it. However I am play the Black version with Night's Whisper plus Dark Confidant. So I gain my card quality and quantity at the same time.

Outside of the Black, I'm not really sure which way to go. I really don't like the fact that I have to set-up Predict to draw 2 cards. But I think it might be needed because the other colors don't cards like NW and DC to gain extra cards.

Michael Keller
06-06-2006, 10:14 PM
Predict is a good card only in certain decks - the same goes for Mental Note. It really all comes down to the metagame. Personally, I think Predict is a solid card in this deck, but if you're in a situation where you don't know the top card, then it's obviously not as good.

So now you have Mental Note, which I think is better only because you're guaranteed a card for one mana cheaper and you mill a couple cards for threshold. Not bad for one U...

kicks_422
06-06-2006, 10:23 PM
Like Brushwagg, I play the black splash... I also choose Mental Note over Predict on that build because of the card advantage Dark Confidant brings... I also play a couple of Darkblasts, so the occassional Mental Note+dredge Darkblast for a surprise 3/3 attacker on turn 2 is gravy... :D

tivadar
06-06-2006, 11:47 PM
True, colors definetly make a difference. I was thinking of the typical UGW or UGR that doesn't run any additional draw (unless you count fire/ice). With Confidant and Night's Whisper, predict is probably unneeded and in fact a bad choice. Are you running ghastly demise out of curiosity?

kicks_422
06-07-2006, 12:27 AM
No Ghastly Demises... Only Diabolic Edicts and a couple of Darkblast... I get bugged by that nonblack creature thing that's tacked on Demise... And I bring in 4 Plagues against Goblins for the Edicts...

If I were playing the red splash, I would choose Predict, though... Maybe with Fire/Ice and Magma Jet as my burn package, to maximize Predict's potential... A toss up on the white splash, though...

Obfuscate Freely
06-07-2006, 01:23 AM
I don't think Mental Note is optimal in any Gro list, regardless of color. Cutting Predict for Night's Whisper is defensible, but Portent will always be a better choice than Mental Note.

Evil Roopey
06-07-2006, 01:46 AM
I don't think Mental Note is optimal in any Gro list, regardless of color. Cutting Predict for Night's Whisper is defensible, but Portent will always be a better choice than Mental Note.

No one said that you couldn't run Mental Note and Portent side by side. In fact, it's probably even better that way.

calosso
06-07-2006, 03:00 PM
No one said that you couldn't run Mental Note and Portent side by side. In fact, it's probably even better that way.

How would running portent and mental note side by side be better?

kimberley
06-07-2006, 03:17 PM
How would running portent and mental note side by side be better?

That way, you have Portent (beneath Brainstorm etc.) as an additional option to setup Note, which results in Note producing Quality, instead of milling yourself at random.

I see it as a general rule for any kind of NQG, that producers and consumers of CQ should have a certain relation (like ~3 to 1*).
Producers: Brainstorm, Visions, Portent, Jet, (SoH)
Consumers: Note, Predict**, Confidant, (Visions, SoH)

*Of course that ratio differs. See my post above.

**Of course Predict can produce card Quality all by itself, by just naming a card, that is likely to hit, but not wanted. Of course, with a setup all consumers produce CQ.

SillyMetalGAT
06-07-2006, 03:18 PM
Because if you have 1 good cards and 2 bad on your top, you can draw it then mental note the other 2 away, building your threshold count. But im only guessing.

EDIT: Yeah, what she said ^^

urza_insane
06-07-2006, 06:20 PM
I don't think Mental Note is optimal in any Gro list, regardless of color. Cutting Predict for Night's Whisper is defensible, but Portent will always be a better choice than Mental Note.

This is a very bold statement. The way you worded it, you don't believe the 1st place Lille list was optimal (even for its own metagame)? I find it hard to believe that the first place list of a GP isn't at least optimal within the tournament. You also claim that Portent is "always" better then Mental Note? I am positive there are multiple positions in which I would rather have Mental Note - such as having a Mongoose on the table with a Warchief across from it and 4 cards in the grave. If you had said *almost* always then I wouldn't have bothered to post, but "always" is far too stong an assumption. If the meta is full of fast aggro decks I believe Mental Note is a much better choice then Portent. I've found the best way to beat a lot of the speed-aggro decks in the format (R/G Beatz, Goblins) isn't to win with card advantage, but to lay down giant creatures. My specific gameplan against Goblins is to get Threshold as fast as possible and get some large blockers down.

Recently I haven't seen any well worded or worthwhile arguements for OR against the Predict/Mental Note arguement. Bardo's and Ob's earlier posts were very good, lets get back to those types instead of these recent 2 liners.

Obfuscate Freely
06-07-2006, 09:35 PM
No one said that you couldn't run Mental Note and Portent side by side. In fact, it's probably even better that way.
Mental Note is worse than all of the other draw spell options, as well. If you have room for it, you should be playing something else in its place.


This is a very bold statement. The way you worded it, you don't believe the 1st place Lille list was optimal (even for its own metagame)? I find it hard to believe that the first place list of a GP isn't at least optimal within the tournament.
The fact that the deck won the tournament is not proof that it is optimal. If you take Summersberger's list to be optimal, then we should all be highly impressed with Krutil's performance, since his deck is so different from the optimal list (Summersberger's), and yet he still managed a 2nd place finish!


You also claim that Portent is "always" better then Mental Note? I am positive there are multiple positions in which I would rather have Mental Note - such as having a Mongoose on the table with a Warchief across from it and 4 cards in the grave. If you had said *almost* always then I wouldn't have bothered to post, but "always" is far too stong an assumption.
What I meant is that it is always better to include Portent in your decklist over Mental Note. Extrapolated, this means that Portent is stronger than Mental Note in the majority of possible situations within any given tournament field.

If the meta is full of fast aggro decks I believe Mental Note is a much better choice then Portent. I've found the best way to beat a lot of the speed-aggro decks in the format (R/G Beatz, Goblins) isn't to win with card advantage, but to lay down giant creatures. My specific gameplan against Goblins is to get Threshold as fast as possible and get some large blockers down.
Gro's spell-based defense comes online much sooner than do it's creatures (Force is online from the onset of the game), so it is better to slow an aggro deck's early development with countermagic and removal than with creatures. Threshold should be achieved naturally by turn 3 or 4, whether or not you run Mental Note, so that is when the creatures can come down to stabilize the board and win the game.

The advantages Portent has over Mental Note are its abilities to fix your early game mana situation, strengthen your spell-based defenses before your creatures can be utilized, and ensure you have those creatures when you do need them.


Recently I haven't seen any well worded or worthwhile arguements for OR against the Predict/Mental Note arguement. Bardo's and Ob's earlier posts were very good, lets get back to those types instead of these recent 2 liners.
Hey, what's wrong with being concise? :cP

Evil Roopey
06-08-2006, 09:37 AM
Mental Note is worse than all of the other draw spell options, as well. If you have room for it, you should be playing something else in its place.

So when I don't think that Predict is better than Mental Note, which is the arguement not Portent, you just say, "Your wrong "?

...

Touche?

Obfuscate Freely
06-08-2006, 11:04 AM
So when I don't think that Predict is better than Mental Note, which is the arguement not Portent, you just say, "Your wrong "
Cutting Predict doesn't make Mental Note any better. Since you seem to need a rehash:

Mental Note is abyssmally bad at chaining into more cantrips, or digging for threats, or finding answers. It can occasionally get you threshold a turn or two earlier, but getting seven cards into the graveyard happens plenty quick enough without sacrificing your midgame advantage. I think the card is awful in the deck.


Mental Note is awful in the mirror match because it's a poor manipulation spell. The Gro mirror is a battle of attrition that is won be whomever draws more creatures and removal spells. Rushing to threshold might let you get a few free hits in, but life totals are only marginally relevant until they're under 10. The midgame sacrifice is not worth it.


Gaining card advantage is actually very important against Goblins, and it also helps against Solidarity. In neither matchup would I want to sacrifice the draw engine for the small possibility of getting threshold sooner.


Mental Note isn't in the same league as the other cantrips, and that includes Portent. Brainstorm and Serum Visions let you see three cards, which is approximately three times as many as the one card Mental Note lets you look at. Portent actually lets you see four cards if you need it to.


One more time, reaching threshold with 15-16 draw spells is rarely difficult, but maintaining card quality advantage with Mental Note often is. It's effectiveness against Tormod's Crypt might be the absolute best argument for Mental Note's inclusion, but that alone doesn't make it worthwhile.

Neither does the card's synergy with Brainstorm, obviously.
I thought that I had covered my reasoning against Mental Note well enough, already.


Note costs 1. Predict costs 2, twice as much as Mental Note, but is significantly more powerful. With that in mind, I think that the need to actually go through cantrips and pick up up needed cards is greater than wanting to be slower and actually gain card advantage.
Mental Note doesn't "pick up needed cards," it gives you a single random draw off the top of your library. For 1 blue mana, this is horribly inefficient when compared to the other draw spells in the deck, and it is horribly inefficient when compared to other options such as Sleight of Hand and Opt.


See where our veiws differ is in the fact that this deck does not need card advantage. It needs speed. The entire deck is based on tempo. You run "free counters" and cheap threats for this reason, and this reason alone. Why stretch it? There is no need.
Gro does have severely undercosted threats and answers at its disposal, but a draw engine is necessary to form a cohesive deck out of them (and simply to utilize some of them, namely the threshold creatures). The advantage Gro has over other decks is that it can afford to spend a good portion of its mana on draw spells because these business spells are so cheap.

Yes, Gro can sometimes generate a tempo advantage as well, but it is the control deck in too many matchups for it to be called a "tempo deck." Luckily, the overwhelming card quality advantage that comes from chaining draw manipulation spells into powerful threats and answers is enough to win most games on its own.

I've always found the extra cards from Predict to be important. The extra card drawn off of a successful Predict will likely make a later Brainstorm that much stronger, or it will mitigate the alternative cost of a Force of Will, or it will simply draw an extra business spell when it is cast. However, if I were to remove Predict, it would have to be for something that offered manipulation comparable to the other draw spells. Thus, if you really don't like Predict, I would look at Sleight of Hand, Opt, or another 2cc option like Impulse or Telling Time before playing Mental Note.

Bardo
06-08-2006, 12:11 PM
I'm sorry to take a vacation from this thread for so long. Being viciously overworked at work (where I do most of my posting), and completely consumed with Hunter S Thompson's Fear and Loathing: on the Campaign Trail '72 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0446313645/sr=8-10/qid=1149779667/ref=pd_bbs_10/103-2529612-3759850?%5Fencoding=UTF8) at home (not to be confused with Hunter's sublime Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679785892/sr=8-1/qid=1149779667/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-2529612-3759850?%5Fencoding=UTF8)) has left me with little time to discuss and debate MtG decks--even ones that I love--but I'll crawl out of my hole to at least make this post.

So, where were we?

(starting from June 4)


It bears mentioning that Mystic Enforcer is also desirable in many other matchups, from RGSA to Angel Stompy. I only board the card out against combo decks (which are highly favorable, anyway), and maybe Goblins.

I'm not so sure he's needed against RGSA--Mongeese, Werebears, and even Meddling Magi do the job. The last time I played against RGSA in a tournament I boarded out my lone Enforcer and never felt he was needed. However, it is worth noting that he is a brick shit-house against Angel Stompy and the mirror. But against something like Rifter or 3/4cSlide, he's rather irrelevant. I'd rather draw Naturalize than Enforcer in those match-ups. He's also not going to get the job done against combo, since you don't want to tap out and not have Counterspell and cantrip mana open--but that's not terribly relevant since Thresh is strong against all forms of combo.

Anyway, I'm not convinced he's necessary at all in these builds--but there are times when he does show up, and it makes for a total blow-out, but I'm not convinced that then he's isn't overkill.


This is an internet discussion forum that exists for the purpose of developing and tweaking decks to make them better. It invalidates our entire dialogue for you to elude debate because the deck is "strong enough."

Well, I think you meant "evade" not "elude," but that's a technical point. Also the form of the debate isn't an "Internet" or MTS phenomenon--it's classic Western philosophical debate. You know, someone adopts a position and uses logic and lines of argumentation to pursuade their debater (more likely, the audience) of something or another because some measure of truth can be found with reasoning and logical deduction.

I was offering an alternative out of this thorny mess and suggesting that maybe we're both right and there is not one objectively "correct" or "true" build; and that the variables are such that Mental Note is going to be better in some situtations and Portent better in others. So, with all of these unknowns, we may be both right, for all we know. I was not being evasive, I was being open-minded.

In any case...


I also disagree that the cantrip power levels are minor. Mental Note isn't in the same league as the other cantrips, and that includes Portent.

I simply disagree. Hitting threshold a turn or three earlier in some match-ups, even in the mirror when getting in an early extra three, four or seven damage, will make the difference between winning and losing. It may be subtle, and it may be overlooked when you sign the match-slip, since it happened in what appeared to be an inconsequential turn (we have a natural bias looking at the endgame), but the extra damage that Note provides can (and has) absolutely won me games I would otherwise have lost.

I remember playing Portent when Ice Ages was on the shelves, and I have the same reservations of it now as I did in 1995 or 1996. Most of the time, you want (and sometimes need) action now--to drop a threat or draw a counter or play a land, etc.; and next turn is not good enough to drop a Mage or remove a threat (StP, etc.). I don't have to tell you the weakness of Portent, but there are games you will lose because you're playing it. Note that this is also true for Mental Note, compared with Portent as well. (see my paragraph above).


If you need to draw Mental Note to reach threshold, what happens when you don't draw Mental Note?

The same thing with any other variation of this deck: you hang in there with your control cards and play the control role until you can become the aggressor. It happens with all versions of this deck when you draw too many non-sac'able permanents and not enough early cantrips/fetchlands.


Of course, if Mental Note is necessary with only 12 draw spells, I will argue that that alone is a good reason to run more.

This reminds me of JP Meyer's set review for Fifth Dawn (this is paraphrasing since I haven't read it since it ran on SCG). When reviewing Serum Visions, JP remarked how long it would be until someone played a deck with 4 Quirion Dryads, 16 lands, and 40 cantrips. Obviously that would be a terrible deck, but in this absurd idea, I think there's something valuable.

The point I was making is that every cantrip you add is another spell that doesn't do anything on its own. They may drive the deck forward and create a lot of potent synergies, but they're not threats or answers on their own, they're catalysts for the deck. So the more draw spells you add, the more you're hollowing out the deck. In a lot of ways this is Good Thing since it effectively reduces your deck size, or artificially increases your 4-ofs, however which way you look at it. But too many cantips is going to make for a disaster, and too few will make the deck sluggish and inert. So, with 12, as opposed to 16, I can fit in 4 more cards that "do something."

That was the point I was making: where's the line? Why not 20 cantrips? 24? Because you're cutting away too much muscle and tissue.


"Or whatever?"

That would be Predict.


Meddling Mage is a preemptive counterspell that gets answered by creature removal. I'd rather play Portent and find a Force or Counterspell.

Meddling Mage is one of the best cards this deck plays. He's a clock, he can prevent multiple spells from being played, he's Chris Freaking Pikula. True, he can be answered with creature removal, but that's true of most creatures, and we still play them, right?

Importantly, he also lets you conserve your control cards so you can stop secondary threats.


The second-place deck (Krutil) only played 11 draw spells, but he eschewed Mental Note for three Predicts.

The third-place deck (Labarre) ran 14 draw spells, sporting 3 each of Mental Note and Predict.

I'm not sure you can make any definitive conclusions based off of those results. All 3 decks were considerably different than your list is now.

For the record, I think Krutil's list is brilliant.

For reference:

UGW Threshold - 2nd place
Grand Prix: Lille
December 18, 2005

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Predict
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Worship

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Galina's Knight
2 Meddling Mage
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Forest

(sideboard)
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Pithing Needle
3 Stifle
2 Armageddon
2 Meddling Mage
2 Seal of Cleansing

And LaBarre was just hedging his bets (with the 3/3-split). :)


If you trust Summersberger's cantrip base and creature base, why aren't you running 4 colors? Do you think that Krutil's maindeck Worship or Labarre's Isochron Scepters could be optimal?

I'm not running four colors, because I like the stability of my mana too much to sacrifice it for flexibility. Maindeck Worship is a brilliant idea, and I gave up maindeck Isochron Scepter long ago (you can see it in my first SCG article (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/8731.html)), but I never ran it in a deck that ran Fire/Ice. But the next time I sleeve up UGR Thresh, I'll test it and pray I don't run into anyone with Pithing Needle. :)


The deck is durable and flexible enough that variations, as long as they're well reasoned and tested, don't make for inferiority, necessarily. (emphasis added)


As a Gro proponent and player, I don't appreciate this attitude. Stating that the deck is good no matter how you build it is a good way to stifle innovation and development.

You've obviously missed my point entirely. As I mentioned earlier, I'm not convinced that there is one objectively "best" and "correct" version of this deck--but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to find it if one exists.

And we've both seen lists that are absolutely dreadful and need a lot of work. I wouldn't say all Gro decks are "good enough."


Me on the other hand play the deck very similar to the way I play Fish: Use my early game advantages to get into the midgame in a position that opponent will not be able to recover from. Now with that in mind, which of these plans is better?

That's my plan as well: where you can, hit them early and hard, so you're in a better position when you reach the midgame and need your threats to connect half as many times as your opponents'.


It is also relevant that two out of three Gro decks in the top eight at GP Philly had fifteen draw spells, including Predict but lacking Mental Note.

I belive this is somewhat of a red herring. Mental Note was tech that came out of Lille. No one on these boards or TMD was talking about it seriously (or better yet, reporting results about it) in October.


It is indeed relevant to point out that the deck has performed very well without Mental Note.

This is true, but the deck ran quite well with Accumulated Knowledge too. I think it runs better now, since the deck has moved away from the 2cc drawers (well, mine and others, anyhow).

Evil Roopey
06-08-2006, 12:53 PM
Luckily, the overwhelming card quality advantage that comes from chaining draw manipulation spells into powerful threats and answers is enough to win most games on its own.

So, you are saying that a card that costs twice as much as an alternative is better at doing this?

My Name Is Scott
06-08-2006, 05:33 PM
This is an internet discussion forum that exists for the purpose of developing and tweaking decks to make them better. It invalidates our entire dialogue for you to elude debate because the deck is "strong enough."
Well, I think you meant "evade" not "elude," but that's a technical point.
Just another quick technical point, elude (http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=elude) and evade (http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=evade) are synonymous (http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=synonymous).


It is also relevant that two out of three Gro decks in the top eight at GP Philly had fifteen draw spells, including Predict but lacking Mental Note.
I believe this is somewhat of a red herring. Mental Note was tech that came out of Lille. No one on these boards or TMD was talking about it seriously (or better yet, reporting results about it) in October.
Actually, the discussion was about the performance of different builds of gro at the time he pointed that out, so it was anything but a red herring. Along with the rest of that post, it backs up the point that the tempo you gain from mental note isn't nearly as important as the card advantage or card quality you would gain from running portent or predict in most matchups.



Luckily, the overwhelming card quality advantage that comes from chaining draw manipulation spells into powerful threats and answers is enough to win most games on its own.
So, you are saying that a card that costs twice as much as an alternative is better at doing this?
Drawing two cards certainly is.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-08-2006, 06:11 PM
Historically speaking, we can pretty easily conclude that 1 mana for a card becomes an increasingly better deal as we go up on the curve, up to some certain probably, judging by Flow of Ideas' lack of play, cutting off around 5; Reach Through Mists is unplayed competitively, whereas at sorcery speed, with a drawback, and in a probably worse color in most formats, Night's Whisper is fairly staple. Thirst for Knowledge and Compulsive research, which never even let you keep three cards, are even more played. While not completely parallel to Gro's deck strategy, in an overall view of magic history and theory, it's fair to say that 1 Mana/1 Card is trumped by 2 mana/2 cards pretty unanimously, so dismissive statements infering that only n00bs would sacrifice tempo for card advantage are, in this case, irrelevant. Then it becomes a question of; how hard is it to get tempo? And the answer is pretty clearly, in my opinion; not very.

Citrus-God
06-08-2006, 06:33 PM
Now let's compare Mental Note and Predict. I'll be reflecting it to Dredge a Tog, since they both seem to have the same roles and concepts.


Mental Note is an aggressive cantrip, while Predict is more defensive unless it's in Red Thresh.

Mental Note gets your guys to the point without much change in hand size, while Predict draws into the overall answers, burn, or threats.

Mental Note makes you go beatdown, while Predict supplies you with answers. I truely dont think these cantrips should be compared, as they both force you to play differently.

I've realized the Alix and Bardo have different views on the deck. That's fine.
Dan is more aggressive with Threshold (And you play Dredge a Tog Tsumara style, I mean you seems like you would play Nuijten's) as he wants Threshold so he can win and maintain the mommentum to find things, and Alix just wants to insure that he has absolute control over the game by find threats and answers to seal the game with even more mommentum (Your most likely to play Tsumara's).

So Bardo wants to win with the destination point, while Alix wants control follow up with a threat with some answers backed up.


Now Bardo has 12 cantrips while Alix has 16. Alix has less answers but a better mommentum to find them so he can maintain the consistentcy, while Bardo has Mages to slow the opponent down, and runs more win conditions, with Mental Notes to make them lethel.

I personally think that these cantrips change change the whole deck on it's own. I say we seperate the two lists and start a new thread. I mean do you see Uba Stax, Cron Stax, and 5c Stax all in the same thread? No, because all 3 play so differently. So Mental Note and Predicts should stay out, because they force the deck to function differently, and play differently.

and yeah... I'm to lazy to edit, so sorry for the extremely horrible grammer...

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-08-2006, 07:20 PM
I'm all for it. Any time we can split up a Gro discussion even further, until the stupid archetype finally loses all momentum and dies, has my support.

Brushwagg
06-08-2006, 07:43 PM
I really think it comes down to how you play. One person may wants more control, while another person wants to go aggro sooner. Is one person right and the other wrong ??? NO. I really feel it comes down to what you are comfortable with. That's another reason why there are three different color splashes for this deck. In the end all forms of Gro have the same plan, control the game and then bash face with big uncost creatures. Same results different names. If one person doesn't like said card, then fine that's his/her opinion and you can argue about it and your not going change anybodies mind about it.

AnwarA101
06-08-2006, 09:55 PM
I really think it comes down to how you play. One person may wants more control, while another person wants to go aggro sooner. Is one person right and the other wrong ??? NO. I really feel it comes down to what you are comfortable with. That's another reason why there are three different color splashes for this deck. In the end all forms of Gro have the same plan, control the game and then bash face with big uncost creatures. Same results different names. If one person doesn't like said card, then fine that's his/her opinion and you can argue about it and your not going change anybodies mind about it.


The question is what is the best way for Gro decks to accomplish "controlling the game and then bash face with big uncost creatures". If the goal was to get to Threshold as soon as possible why not play Mental Note and Predict that would put the as many cards as possible in to the yard with the least amount of cost.

But card selection is very important thus the reason to play Brainstorm and Serum Visions. Portent and Predict are just a continuation of that strategy. Mental Note is not about card selection at all. It puts two random cards from the top of your library and 1 random card off the top into your hand (except for when you brainstorm). Mental Note does not seem to fit the strategy of the deck to use cantrips to gain virtual card advantage and build Threshold as consequence of using cantrips.

Citrus-God
06-09-2006, 02:12 AM
Mental Note is good... but it forces you to lose momentum, meaning it just get's to the point so you can get Threshold. Builds that usually run Mental Note have at least 12 to 14 creatures.

But Predict... I'm sorry, but Predict is a very interesting card. The card your most likely to pitch to this card means your thinning your deck, and drawing two cards. It has the functions of what a true aggro control deck wants; replacing/adding a threat to the table, and finding answers.


@Brushwagg: Thanks, I'm happy that somebody actually sorta understands what I was talking about.

@AnwarA101: Actually... I play Bardo's old list list with Sleight of Hands and Mental Notes... instead I takeout M. Note #4, and the two Sleight of Hands for 3 Predicts. Predict IMO can be a mini Mental Note, and can be set up if you want Card Advantage.

adrieng
06-13-2006, 02:00 PM
hi everybody
i am not used to play threshold (i played only about twenty games)
and i wanted to know if someone tryed seton's scout in the mental note version
1G
2/1
can block as thought as it has flying
threshold+2+2
the only problem i see is is 3 thoughness(lightning bolt target)
that makes him worse than werebear
but did someone tryied it or it is just crap?
thx

urza_insane
06-13-2006, 02:12 PM
If your meta is flooded with fliers then go ahead and play scout. If not, then Werebear is the better choice. Playing both is an option, but Threshold simply doesn't need that many creatures.

Lego
06-14-2006, 01:45 PM
I've tested Seton's Scout, but only as an addition to Werebear. His ability to block flyers almost never came into play. If you feel like you need another beatstick for some reason, he is a great choice after Nimble Mongoose & Werebear, but after testing him I just didn't find that another beater was needed. If I was going to up the creature count, I would prefer creatures that do something more than beat, like Meddling Make or Dark Confidant.

BoardinCharlie
06-14-2006, 01:47 PM
I have been keeping up to date with the Mental Note vs. Predict discussion here and I play tested a bunch today and yesterday to figure out which is actually better.

The jist of it is in the mirror match, predict is strictly better, it always came down to who got creatures out faster and in more numbers. You get into a position where both players are top decking and diggin once or twice each turn to find more threats. With mental note you have to wait till another visions or brainstorm to make sure you don't hit a creature. Every time I would hit a creature it pretty much meant game over. Not to mention most players after they serum or brainstorm will place a better card on top so to mill it away is nice.

On the other side of the fence, against gobbos I found that mental note was strictly better, they can keep you low on mana with ports/wastes. So the one casting cost really is a plus. The fact that you need to get threshold right away is huge. You can't afford to toss out wear bears without thresh, and at the same time you can't afford to hold them back in hand for a free piledriver swing.

Citrus-God
06-14-2006, 03:42 PM
It also depends who has more creatures in play, and who has more guys. In g2, if everybody sides in Crypt, the Predict version is absolutely fucked if they dont get that Needle/Crypt.

I personally think Predict is better in a metagames that dont have a lot of Threshold. As for metas with Threshold, Mental Note would be the way to go.

Like I said, theres truely no point in comparing the 3 Stax variants in Vintage, as they all have different functions for different metagames. Also, it's like comparing Magpie MUC with Spire Golem MUC, it all depends on the metagame.

Zilla
06-14-2006, 05:33 PM
I have been keeping up to date with the Mental Note vs. Predict discussion here and I play tested a bunch today and yesterday to figure out which is actually better.

The jist of it is in the mirror match, predict is strictly better, it always came down to who got creatures out faster and in more numbers. You get into a position where both players are top decking and diggin once or twice each turn to find more threats. With mental note you have to wait till another visions or brainstorm to make sure you don't hit a creature. Every time I would hit a creature it pretty much meant game over. Not to mention most players after they serum or brainstorm will place a better card on top so to mill it away is nice.

On the other side of the fence, against gobbos I found that mental note was strictly better, they can keep you low on mana with ports/wastes. So the one casting cost really is a plus. The fact that you need to get threshold right away is huge. You can't afford to toss out wear bears without thresh, and at the same time you can't afford to hold them back in hand for a free piledriver swing.
To be precise, your usage of the term "strictly better" is strictly incorrect. Something is strictly superior when there exist no instances where it is not better. For example, Lightning Bolt is strictly superior to Shock.

Now, having tested the Thresh mirror quite a bit myself, I can tell you that there are situations where Mental Note is a game-breaking play, and would, in fact, be a better play than Predict in the same situation. Therefore, neither is strictly better. Predict may theoretically be better more of the time (but even there I have my doubts), but not strictly so.

Just thought a clarification was in order.

Brushwagg
06-14-2006, 10:56 PM
I would like to ask a question here. What color splash has everyone been testing the Predict vs. Mental Note in? I play the Black version with Mental Note and I have been really happy with it. Of course I also play Dark Confidant, Night's Whisper, Brainstorm, and Serum Visions. So I really feel Predict is not needed because I already draw/see alot of cards.

I also like the quick boost Mental Note gives me. It has won me more then a few games.

However outside of the Black splash, I can see where Predict could be better, since there is no real card draw. I could be wrong, since I haven't played with White and only limited playing time with Red.

kimberley
06-15-2006, 08:14 AM
I did some testing with Note vs. Predict during GP preparations. The odd thing about the results (which slightly favored Predict) was that, the lighter the tested version was, the better Predict ranked.
In NQGw with 12-14 creatures Mental Note had equivalent results.
In lighter variants of NQGw and standard versions of NQGr (-> Dragon, 4-6 Burn spells) Predict did slightly better than Note.
In very light and low curved versions of NQGr (8-12 Burn spells, Serendib, Drake or no finisher at all) Predict outclassed Note by a lot.

My conclusion was:
1st: You need a lot of creatures to actually profit from note (definatly more than 8 threshold dependants).
2nd: The lower the curve of your list is, the weaker is Note, due to the risks of simply running out of gas.

Obviously most of the decks i tested aggainst have changed by a fair bit since November, but i still work with that theory.

I know my english is bad...
...but sometimes i think its my chinese that is bad...

I did not test NQGb at all, but i guess Note and Predict will rank as they did in heavy white lists.
I think your guessing (Confidant (and if you insist, Whisper) limiting the need for Predict) might very well be true. :)

BoardinCharlie
06-15-2006, 08:25 AM
I see that I have used a term that struck some soft points in others. I will retract such a strong word usage in future comments.

@Brushwagg: I used to play the Red version then found that I just liked the way the white version played out, more controlling with mage. Also when I did play the red version I found myself running mental note, just because I liked the speed more than anything. The red let you race decks more it seemed so mental note seemed like the proper play with with cheaper casting cost and faster at reaching thresh *kind of since the burn doesn't replace itself*

Citrus-God
06-15-2006, 03:07 PM
That seriously should be the other way around...

Red doesnt have much other than counters to slow you down, so it uses Burn. But also, the card quality in Red is crap compared to White's, so Predict made it better.
Predict in Red draws you, and maintains the card quality as well as it adds to your clock. Now Mental Note only makes Thresh creatures in happy, and kills off your card quality.

In White, Predict I've seen is only ran in the Cavern Ninja/Ridiculous Hat/Obfuscately Freely builds. People still play those builds, as they're still solid, but they run a strong momentum/digging power to get those creatures quickly. As for the Bardo/Helmut builds, they're have somewhat decent card quality through cantrips, but maintains a faster clock, as they run more creatures, and things like Mage to slow you down.


Just to change the subject a little, what do you guys think is the optimal build of Red Threshold.

I personally think it's Getsickanddie's (Yeah... I cant spell your name) version.

Bryant Cook
06-15-2006, 03:26 PM
That seriously should be the other way around...

Red doesnt have much other than counters to slow you down, so it uses Burn. But also, the card quality in Red is crap compared to White's, so Predict made it better.
Predict in Red draws you, and maintains the card quality as well as it adds to your clock. Now Mental Note only makes Thresh creatures in happy, and kills off your card quality.

In White, Predict I've seen is only ran in the Cavern Ninja/Ridiculous Hat/Obfuscately Freely builds. People still play those builds, as they're still solid, but they run a strong momentum/digging power to get those creatures quickly. As for the Bardo/Helmut builds, they're have somewhat decent card quality through cantrips, but maintains a faster clock, as they run more creatures, and things like Mage to slow you down.


Just to change the subject a little, what do you guys think is the optimal build of Red Threshold.

I personally think it's Getsickanddie's (Yeah... I cant spell your name) version.
My teammate doesn't play gro; I sir, play gro. If you were talking about my list, it does me well but I don't know if people should consider my list optimal. Because well let's face it, everyone from VA hates my list because it doesn't play 24 cantrips or something ridiculous. As for predict v.s mental note in gro. The speed that mental note provides isn't better than predict at all. Everything about this deck is card quality, and well mental note just gives you a card. Predict makes up for that extra card going into the yard a turn later in a better way since you didn't mill something important. In the red version predict is strictly(Yes, I said it) because of magma jet as an extra set-up spell for predict. That card helps the deck flow like none other, red gro has a way of changing hands with one b-storm because the way it has twice as many scry effects and it's shuffle effects. At seton's scout he's not playable in gro but I picked up 4 foil one's a few months back hoping he'd be good as a SB man, then I remembered FTK exist and doesn't need threshold to be big.

Ewokslayer
06-15-2006, 03:39 PM
Because well let's face it, everyone from VA hates my list because it doesn't play 24 cantrips or something ridiculous. As for predict v.s mental note in gro.
Everyone from VA hates your list because it is 61 cards and has 12 burn spells. Cutting a burn spell would make the deck tons better.


At seton's scout he's not playable in gro but I picked up 4 foil one's a few months back hoping he'd be good as a SB man, then I remembered FTK exist and doesn't need threshold to be big.
But FTK doesn't have a nifty crossbow does it?

Citrus-God
06-15-2006, 07:54 PM
Everyone from VA hates your list because it is 61 cards and has 12 burn spells. Cutting a burn spell would make the deck tons better.


But FTK doesn't have a nifty crossbow does it?

Dude... 61 cards really isnt that bad... I played with that list so much, I seriously dont think it matters, since the deck's card quality engine is so friggin insane! 12 Burn cards are part of the Removal/Win goodness. It's really not that bad... Besides you have 8 Fetches, 8 Cantrips, and 4 Draw Cards. That's a crap loada deck thinning, so it shouldn't hurt.


@wastedlife: Now I remember... stupid me. Anyway, that is the most consistent Red Threshold list I have ever seen. It never draws dead for me. It's a really good list, and handles the mirror quite nicely as well.

Brushwagg
06-15-2006, 11:24 PM
I did not test NQGb at all, but i guess Note and Predict will rank as they did in heavy white lists.
I think your guessing (Confidant (and if you insist, Whisper) limiting the need for Predict) might very well be true. :)

I've never really been a fan of Predict. I feel Mental Note is the lesser of two evils. Regaurdless of which one you run, you need something to fill the yard.

Also there is no guessing about Dark Confidant is just insane. He's one of the reasons Predict is not needed. Also I rank Night's Whisper higher then Predict, just because it draws you two cards every time, it's only draw back is the Sorcery thing.

AnwarA101
06-15-2006, 11:51 PM
I've never really been a fan of Predict. I feel Mental Note is the lesser of two evils. Regaurdless of which one you run, you need something to fill the yard.



Have you tried Portent? If you run Brainstorm, Serum Visions, and Portent then Predict usually draws you 2 cards as well as knocking out cards that you don't want to draw. The 16 cantrip engine with Predict is very strong. Give it a try before you complain about Predict.

Citrus-God
06-16-2006, 01:56 AM
Or if you run Black, run Diabolic Visions as an extra Confidant/Predict set-up card...

overlord95
06-16-2006, 02:29 AM
Have you tried Portent? If you run Brainstorm, Serum Visions, and Portent then Predict usually draws you 2 cards as well as knocking out cards that you don't want to draw. The 16 cantrip engine with Predict is very strong. Give it a try before you complain about Predict.
IMO i've found Predict to be less than stellar in the black version on grow. In most matchups i've found that quality is better then quantity.


Or if you run Black, run Diabolic Visions as an extra Confidant/Predict set-up card...
Even after much ridicule from the rest of the NoVa crew ive trying Diabolic Vision in the Predict slot and have been really likeing it. But the only problem with the card is that you can Visions into shit and be stuck with it. So to try and alleviate this problem I add more fetches to the deck bringing the count up to 7. And the number of shuffling effects up 11.

BoardinCharlie
06-16-2006, 11:52 AM
I had a question about the U/G/R version. I was play a slightly altered version of Wasted Life's build, 8 fetch, no taiga. I know the power of fire/ice, bolt, and jet is very high, each having their beneficial situations. I'm not sure If I want to run the 12 burn spells. Could the deck get away with just 8 burn, a mix of three, or cut one? Then in its place I would try and squeeze in another cantrip to smooth out draws (probably Portent or Slight of Hand), only a 3 of since I want to keep it at 60 cards.

PS- I'm really liking the power of predict in this deck.

Bryant Cook
06-16-2006, 12:06 PM
I had a question about the U/G/R version. I was play a slightly altered version of Wasted Life's build, 8 fetch, no taiga. I know the power of fire/ice, bolt, and jet is very high, each having their beneficial situations. I'm not sure If I want to run the 12 burn spells. Could the deck get away with just 8 burn, a mix of three, or cut one? Then in its place I would try and squeeze in another cantrip to smooth out draws (probably Portent or Slight of Hand), only a 3 of since I want to keep it at 60 cards.

PS- I'm really liking the power of predict in this deck.


I cut Taiga and I was never eight fetches, I was at 7, but I hated not having the second basic island. So, it went back to 6. If anyone's interested I'll send you my current list. I don't think I should spam up the board with it.

Angel of Despair
06-16-2006, 12:11 PM
I play White Thresh. I run 3 Mental Note, and 1 Predict (I only have one so far). Yesterday I was playtesting against a Loam deck. It was the first time i was actually happy to have mental note in my deck. I am really torn between the two. I always felt that Note was the weakest thing in my deck, but yesterday I played a Fetchland, and then Brainstorm first turn, and then he played Therapy for Force. I played another fetch, then I dropped a Serum Visions and a Mental Note. This was the first time I had Threshold on turn 2. It was sick, so I'm not sure if I am ready to take out the Note completely. What about running 2 and 2?
~AoD

Bryant Cook
06-16-2006, 12:14 PM
I play White Thresh. I run 3 Mental Note, and 1 Predict (I only have one so far). Yesterday I was playtesting against a Loam deck. It was the first time i was actually happy to have mental note in my deck. I am really torn between the two. I always felt that Note was the weakest thing in my deck, but yesterday I played a Fetchland, and then Brainstorm first turn, and then he played Therapy for Force. I played another fetch, then I dropped a Serum Visions and a Mental Note. This was the first time I had Threshold on turn 2. It was sick, so I'm not sure if I am ready to take out the Note completely. What about running 2 and 2?
~AoD
How is turn 2 threshold any better than turn 3 with predict and a creature? The turn you reach threshold doesn't matter if you don't have a man on the board and you can't swing.

Angel of Despair
06-16-2006, 12:31 PM
I did have a Mongoose out. My bad. I played it first turn. I confused whether I played it or not, but I just talked to Bane, and he told me that I did, indeed play a first turn Mongoose and Mental Noted to victory. I am, however going to take Note out when I get the rest of my Predicts.

tivadar
06-16-2006, 01:37 PM
I just think predict is better. Mental note does help in a couple of situations, but late game, predict is almost always better. 2/2 doesn't sound right to me, as if you're running note, you really want to pack 4 so you have a good chance of getting one early.

Bane of the Living
06-16-2006, 02:09 PM
Mental Note is better against gobs, when your geese need to eat them sooner. Predict is just bad against quick aggro. She really womped me with turn 2-4 threshold. Mental Note also goes very well with Brainstorm if you dont have fetch lands to hide your garbage.

Predict is also 2cc so it can hinder you when playing opponents with Wasteland.

BlindMage
06-16-2006, 03:08 PM
I always have trouble boarding in this deck (I run a build very similar to Bardo's list). It would be awesome if one of the more experianced players would post a short summary of how they sideboard in various matchups. Thanks.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-16-2006, 04:06 PM
IMO i've found Predict to be less than stellar in the black version on grow. In most matchups i've found that quality is better then quantity.

Then logically, as the quality of two random cards is higher than one random card, we have to conclude that Predict would be better than Mental Note. I'm not seeing where this logic would lead to a different conclusion.

AnwarA101
06-16-2006, 04:31 PM
Then logically, as the quality of two random cards is higher than one random card, we have to conclude that Predict would be better than Mental Note. I'm not seeing where this logic would lead to a different conclusion.

I think Overlord95 agrees that Predict is better than Mental Note. He is arguing for the inclusion of Diabolic Vision instead of Predict. Diabolic Vision looks at 5 cards and draws 1 (and stacks your deck for Confidant). Predict looks at zero cards and draws 2 (most of the time) and at worst draws 1 random card. By quality he meant card selection which Diabolic Vision offers and Predict does not.

Bane of the Living
06-16-2006, 04:39 PM
By quality I think he was refering to Bob and how he more than replaces Predict as a draw 2. Mental Note can stay in black to help get a very quick threshold, I really wouldnt pull it for anything except perhaps Portent. But I dont like the slowtrip along side bob since he also counts as a slowtrip. I really only have personal exp with the black splash but it seems to accumulate more CA in a shorter amount of time. Setting up your lib for Predicts just doesnt compare to always drawing the extra card a turn and having another 2/1 body to win the game with. Extra creatures also means Jitte is a sb option.

Not many people expect to see it out of thresh and side out needles, they dont side in Naturalize or anything because your not white thresh with your silly Worships and enchantment tricks.

Aside from yet again comparing builds and colors..

Has anyone given thought to Trigon Predator in the sb. I know its not instant speed Naturalize but it swings for 2 a turn, flies, can blow up multiple cards, and pitches to force. Its crap against Humility but thats what counterspells are in the deck for right?

Brushwagg
06-17-2006, 05:04 PM
it seems to accumulate more CA in a shorter amount of time. Setting up your lib for Predicts just doesnt compare to always drawing the extra card a turn and having another 2/1 body to win the game with.

I have to agree here. Once Bob hits the table it's GG, unless your opponent deals with it quickly and at that point Predict isn't needed. Basically my feeling on the matter is Bob & Night's Whisper > Predict.

URABAHN
06-17-2006, 08:30 PM
I have to agree here. Once Bob hits the table it's GG, unless your opponent deals with it quickly and at that point Predict isn't needed. Basically my feeling on the matter is Bob & Night's Whisper > Predict.

I don't think you should make a sweeping generalization like that and then say "unless your opponent deals with it quickly". Once Bob hits the table, it's not GG. If that were true, Dark Confidant would be the best card ever because you can never let it resolve. What you've said is equivalent to "Bob is strictly better than [Insert Black Draw Spell/Engine Here], but not really." Should you not have any removal for Confidant once it hits the table, it's often okay if you find removal a few turns later because you may still win even though Bob drew your opponent a few extra cards. Just because your opponent resolves Ancestral Recall doesn't mean he automatically wins the match.

BoardinCharlie
06-19-2006, 10:28 AM
@Brushwagg- I am not to sure that that statment is true....I was playing against a confidant build this weekend. I was running U/G/R thresh, I didn't have the counterspell for him. he kept on drawing cards yes, but the fact that he was at 11 life just made it better. yeah he had drawn a total of 4 cards off of it, but he was down to 6 life due to confidant then I just tossed burn spells at him and he couldn't counter them all.

The one thing that I'm wondering about so much with this particular discussion. The cards that are being compared are Mental Note, Predict, and D vision if I'm correct. Each of these cards are being compared if you have another part with it, whether it be scrying/visioning/brainstorming. Yes they all have their explosions but can you really count on being able to set up this much against gobbos packing wasteland, port and a clock that usually goes turn 4-6? Should the their power alone be discussed more?

Bardo
06-19-2006, 11:30 AM
I always have trouble boarding in this deck (I run a build very similar to Bardo's list). It would be awesome if one of the more experianced players would post a short summary of how they sideboard in various matchups. Thanks.

Using this sideboard:

(Sideboard)
4 Hydroblast
3 Armageddon
2 Tivadar's Crusade
2 Naturalize
2 Worship
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mystic Enforcer

This is how I sideboard, more or less:

Goblins
+4 Hydroblast
+2 Tivadarís Crusade
+1 Worship
-4 Meddling Mage
-2 Daze
-1 Engineered Explosives

Sligh/RDW, Burn
+4 Hydroblast
+2 Worship
-4 Meddling Mage / -4 Swords to Plowshares (if creatureless)
-2 Pithing Needle

ďThe MirrorĒ
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Mystic Enforcer
+1 Worship
-2 Pithing Needle
-1 Meddling Mage

W/R Lightning Rift
+3 Armageddon
+2 Naturalize
-2 Meddling Mage
-2 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Mystic Enforcer

Landstill
+3 Armageddon
+2 Naturalize
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Engineered Explosives

High Tide (any creatureless combo)
+3 Armageddon
+1 Hydroblast
-4 Swords to Plowshares

Survival
+2 Naturalize
+1 Engineered Explosives
-1 Nimble Mongoose
-1 Mystic Enforcer
-1 Daze

Psychatog
+3 Armageddon
-1 Engineered Explosives
-2 Daze

Fish, Angel Stompy, White Weenie
+2 Naturalize
+1 Engineered Explosives
-2 Meddling Mage
-1 Daze

Affinity
+2 Naturalize
+1 Engineered Explosives
-2 Daze
-1 Meddling Mage

B/W Confidant
+1 Mystic Enforcer
+1 Engineered Explosives
-1 Meddling Mage
-1 Counterspell

Lukas Preuss
06-19-2006, 12:09 PM
High Tide
+1 Hydroblast

This one is kinda strange. Of course, Swords to Plowshares are equally bad against Solidarity, but at least the can target Spring Tide's Cloud of Faeries in response to Snap. Hydroblast has no use at all (other than that you can cast it to up the storm count). Am I missing something?

edit: Thanks, wastedlife, I forgot about that. :)

Bryant Cook
06-19-2006, 12:14 PM
This one is kinda strange. Of course, Swords to Plowshares are equally bad against Solidarity, but at least the can target Spring Tide's Cloud of Faeries in response to Snap. Hydroblast has no use at all (other than that you can cast it to up the storm count). Am I missing something?
It pitches to Force of Will.

EDIT:
Using this sideboard:
4 Pyroclasm
3 Flametongue Kavu
2 Trygon Predator/Naturalize
2 Phyrexian Furnace
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle

How I side...

Goblins(This depends on if I won game one or not. AKA Fuckin' around or not if I lost game 1 I'm taking all measures into winning 2+3, if I won game one I leave in Predict.)
Win game 1
-4 lightning bolt
-2 Flegdling dragon
-1 Werebear
+4 pyroclasm
+3 Flametongue Kavu

Lost game 1
-4 Predict
-2 Flegdling dragon
-1 Werebear
+4 pyroclasm
+3 Flametongue Kavu


Sligh/RDW/BDW, burn
No changes, U/g/r Gro is all of those decks but better you should win. Mongoose > pup, Werebear > fanatic. Our burn = Their burn.

The Mirror(White)
-4 Lightning bolt
-3 Of your choice, I usually pick fire/ice.
+2 Phrexian Furnace
+1 tormod's crypt
+4 Pyroclasm or FTK

The Mirror(Black)
- 2 Fledgling dragon
- 4 Predict (Draw Isn't needed, Burn is.)
- 1 Werebear
+2 Phrexian Furnace
+1 tormod's crypt
+4 Pyroclasm or FTK

W/R Lightning Rift
+2 Trygon Predator/Naturalize
+3 Pithing Needle
-4 Lightning Bolt
-1 Fire/ice

Landstill (This deck still exist?)
-2 Fledgling dragon
-1 Fire/ice
+3 Pithing Needle

High Tide
-2 Fleding Dragon (Tapping out is bad)
-1 Predict
+3 Pithing needle(These are better than Dragons)

Survival
-4 Predict
-4 Lightening Bolt
-1 Randomness/burnspell
+3 Flametongue kavu
+2 Trygon predator/Naturalize
+4 Pyroclasm
+3 Pithing Needle

Psychatog
-4 Lightning Bolt
-2 Fire/ice
+2 Phrexian Furnace
+1 tormod's crypt
+3 Pithing needle

Fish, Angel Stompy, White Weenie
-3 Predict
+3 Pithing Needle
and for fish
(same) plus
-4 Lightning Bolt
+4 Pyroclasm

Affinity
-4 Predict
-2 Dragon
-1 fire/ice
+4 Pyroclasm
+3 Flametongue Kavu

B/W Confidant
-2 Fledlging dragon
-4 lightning bolt
-1 Fire/ice
+3 Pithing needle
+4 Pyroclasm

Alright, I know it seems wierd that I SB out Predict but against fast aggro I'd rather have FYk and clasm.

Bongo
06-19-2006, 02:12 PM
The Mirror(White)
-4 Lightning bolt
-3 Of your choice, I usually pick fire/ice.
+2 Phrexian Furnace
+1 tormod's crypt
+4 Pyroclasm

The Mirror(Black)
- 2 Fledgling dragon
- 4 Predict (Draw Isn't needed, Burn is.)
- 1 Werebear
+2 Phrexian Furnace
+1 tormod's crypt
+4 Pyroclasm



How is Pyroclasm going to help in the mirror? It doesn't kill the threshed creatures. Also, siding out Predict seems suboptimal, in my experience the mirror is often decided by card quality and advantage.

Bryant Cook
06-19-2006, 02:21 PM
How is Pyroclasm going to help in the mirror? It doesn't kill the threshed creatures. Also, siding out Predict seems suboptimal, in my experience the mirror is often decided by card quality and advantage.


The black gro I play against(Brushwagg), Play's alot of cards that cause him to lose life. 6 Fetch lands, 3 Dark Confidant, and 4 Night's whisper, that's an asston of loss of life. What's going to help if he has alot of removal? Burn. When you're opponent doesn;t have threshold and they're forced to over extended or if neither person can reach threshold pyroclasm is bomb. I've done my testing, it helps. I leave in predict for the other mirror's just not black.

Edit: Also note pyroclasm against white gro only comes in if they're creature heavy.

Bardo
06-19-2006, 03:40 PM
Also note pyroclasm against white gro only comes in if they're creature heavy.

What is Pyroclasm going to kill that isn't name Meddling Mage? Note that I remove half of my Mages in the mirror anyhow.

Playing U/G/R in the mirror, I think your best bet is to bring in the Crypts/Furnaces (though, really, Crypt is much better) and the FTKs for Werebears and Enforcer+burn.

I'm also really surprised you board out Lightning Bolt against Goblins, since it kills everything your opponent can throw at you. Vial+Warchief+Piledriver can have you dead out of nowhere. It seems like you really need as much instant speed removal as you can reasonably fit in.


Landstill (This deck still exist?)

Sorry, that's my way of saying any slow Blue-based control deck.

Re: Trygon Predator - It's certainly a cool card that deserves testing, but against Rifter and anything packing Humility, he's going to look kinda silly.


[Hydroblast] pitches to Force of Will.

Exactly. It's better than pitching anything else that's blue in the deck against High Tide and I'd rather have FoW-fodder than StP against any creature-less combo deck (Tendils/IGGy Pop, Brain Freeze/High Tide, or Belcher).

CavernNinja
06-19-2006, 03:54 PM
StP is actually quite good against Belcher. They use creatures to generate mana so StP works as mana-denial. Also if they are playing red and bring in Welders they work to remove a very pesky dude from the board.

Bardo
06-19-2006, 04:13 PM
StP is actually quite good against Belcher. They use creatures to generate mana so StP works as mana-denial. Also if they are playing red and bring in Welders they work to remove a very pesky dude from the board.

Fair enough. I remove StP against any combo deck that doesn't run creatures, so I'd reconsider my sideboard plan if I was facing one that did.

The sideboard guide I listed above is just a rough approximation, since I obviously don't check my notes in the middle of a round. After each game, I think:

- what sucked (and I don't want in my deck in games 2/3)
- what do I have in my board that's good
- what sideboard cards am I likely to see that can wreck me

That's my sideboard plan.

Bryant Cook
06-19-2006, 04:32 PM
What is Pyroclasm going to kill that isn't name Meddling Mage? Note that I remove half of my Mages in the mirror anyhow.

Playing U/G/R in the mirror, I think your best bet is to bring in the Crypts/Furnaces (though, really, Crypt is much better) and the FTKs for Werebears and Enforcer+burn.

I'm also really surprised you board out Lightning Bolt against Goblins, since it kills everything your opponent can throw at you. Vial+Warchief+Piledriver can have you dead out of nowhere. It seems like you really need as much instant speed removal as you can reasonably fit in.



Sorry, that's my way of saying any slow Blue-based control deck.

Re: Trygon Predator - It's certainly a cool card that deserves testing, but against Rifter and anything packing Humility, he's going to look kinda silly.
Games usually take awhile in the mirror, long enough for furnaces to become active, or a decent sized crypt. So, pyroclasm will hit 2-3 creatures inclusing mongeese which can't be killed by burn. When under a furnace the other thresh player is forced to over extend which makes pyroclasm great. I do bring in Ftk, but lately he's been less usefull in the mirror. I don't know if he is worth it in the mirror, I've had times when I was sitting on 3 Ftk's and all they had was a goose.
@ goblins- that's only if I won game one the reason is that I'd rather have draw to find the other burn that's all, It's a just preferance really.
@ Trygun Predator- I've found this guy to be amazing in my testing. I can't explain how much I love him, I've even debated putting him MD and putting dragon to the SB. I'm not sure, he is a undercosted fattie, who kills shit and flys! What's not to like and he's only 3 mana 1UG very castable instead of 2RR, that's all just a thought. I'd still bring him in for rifter on the off chance he kills a rift or moat/ something random. Obv. he's not going to kill humility as a 1/1 no abilities, but he's still very useful.

Bane of the Living
06-19-2006, 06:20 PM
My girlfriend has a pair of Trygons in her board they've been nice against decks your not really mentioning such as stax as well. Against gobs he kills vials! So huge, and hes another creature that pitches to force.

dontbiteitholmes
06-24-2006, 08:44 PM
The beginning of the end..?
Jötun Grunt 1W
Creature - Giant Soldier
Cumulative upkeep - Put two cards in a single graveyard on the bottom of their owner's library. (At the beginning of your upkeep, put an age counter on this permanent, then sacrifice it unless you pay its upkeep cost for each age counter on it.)
Illus. Franz Vohwinkel
4/4

So if I'm reading this right they can pick your graveyard... Talk about bad times for you guys.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=23612&d=1149663669

Bryant Cook
06-24-2006, 08:59 PM
The beginning of the end..?
Jötun Grunt 1W
Creature - Giant Soldier
Cumulative upkeep - Put two cards in a single graveyard on the bottom of their owner's library. (At the beginning of your upkeep, put an age counter on this permanent, then sacrifice it unless you pay its upkeep cost for each age counter on it.)
Illus. Franz Vohwinkel
4/4

So if I'm reading this right they can pick your graveyard... Talk about bad times for you guys.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=23612&d=1149663669

Thank god for Flametongue Kavu, thank god. He's not a extremely big problem he can be played around. Not to mention giving me back cards from my graveyard when I have shuffle effects isn't exactly the brightest of bright ideas. Each color has a way to kill the bitch too, white has swords, red has FTK and burn, black has Ghastly Demise and edict. Not to mention you could just not put cards into your grave and have him die to his upkeep.

Edit:Not to mention he has shit on Trygon Predator.

kimberley
06-24-2006, 11:15 PM
JŲtun Grunt

Isn't this (http://www.zkforum.de/showthread.php?t=40037) an indicator for this thread being in a bad state?

@Wastedlife
For sure there are numerous ways to deal with that guy.
But...that thing is forcing a NQG player to react in a way no other white beatdown creature does.
If you do not remove him asap, you will suffer a severe tempo loss and that thing will swing for 4.
Dealing 4 damage or killing one of your creatures often will be enough for 2 Mana if your opponent is playing BDW, AS or VialFish.
And having a creature killed that had to be killed is not generally a bad thing either, especially when the forced removal has a CC equal or above JŲtun Grunt's.
And one thing is sure: For any weenie strategy this is an extremely powerful mid or late game topdeck aggainst NQG compared to other white creatures with that CC.

That guy will not end Threshold or anything like that, but it is a severe thread to the decks superiority regarding the mentioned archetypes.

If i play VialFish, do i want to board Crypts, Furnaces or that guy?
Will the matchup improve if i board that guy instead of Crypt or Furnace?
It's as simple as that.


Not to mention giving me back cards from my graveyard when I have shuffle effects isn't exactly the brightest of bright ideas.

Come on - what kind of odd argument is that?
1st Just adding cards to your library doesn't help you. You don't play 70-Card-Gro in the first place, do you?
2nd The opponent will - if i understand correctly - be able to choose the cards, in fact ruining you card quality, which can be very useful even when you are far away from loosing threshold.

Brushwagg
06-24-2006, 11:40 PM
Withered Wretch, Crypt, Furnace, Scrabbling Claws, etc.... All do the same thing and they are better at it. The only match this thing will be good in is the Gro match, and by turn 2 you should have an answer for him in hand. So I'm not worried at all.


And one thing is sure: For any weenie strategy this is an extremely powerful mid or late game topdeck aggainst NQG compared to other white creatures with that CC.

Yes and No here. If Gro is light in the yard with out an answer it could get ugly. But if things are going right, if it hits the baord, it's not going to stay long. But only time will tell how much of an impact it may or may not make.


The black gro I play against(Brushwagg), Play's alot of cards that cause him to lose life. 6 Fetch lands, 3 Dark Confidant, and 4 Night's whisper

I've been meaning to answer this. Actually I play 3 Night's Whisper and I side them out when I play the Red "Mirror".

dontbiteitholmes
06-25-2006, 12:46 AM
So yeah, I think Gro/R is on the border of the best splash of the Gro with a stronger game against most aggro decks then /W and /B this card seems like it will push that over the edge.
The way I see it...
Gro/W
Best against combo by far, good vs. MonoW control (or so I hear), meh vs. aggro and burn.
Gro/R
Best vs. Aggro/Aggro with Burn, good vs. Landstill type control (if anyone played it), worse vs. Combo.
Gro/B
Good vs. /W mirror, worse vs. aggro and anything with burn.

May be wrong though correct me if I am I don't play any of the decks I just talked about... Go ahead and add bad vs. White aggro to the list of Gro/W after that new dude drops (and probobaly /B also). GY hate with a 4/4 ass on top for 2, yeah he might see play...

Brushwagg
06-25-2006, 07:30 AM
Gro/B
Good vs. /W mirror, worse vs. aggro and anything with burn.

If you mean non-Goblin aggro, then yes Black has a slight problem with these types of decks. It really depends on what it is.


May be wrong though correct me if I am I don't play any of the decks I just talked about... Go ahead and add bad vs. White aggro to the list of Gro/W after that new dude drops (and probobaly /B also). GY hate with a 4/4 ass on top for 2, yeah he might see play...

As Wastedlife said before all the colors have ways of dealing with this guy. White and Black have a easier time, Red has to either use 2 burn spells or FTK(sb). The other problem with this guy is he is not active as soon as he hits play. By being active I mean, he's not ready to kill the yard like all the others. That doesn't mean he will not see play, I think there is alot of other cards that do the job better.

dontbiteitholmes
06-25-2006, 09:59 AM
If you mean non-Goblin aggro, then yes Black has a slight problem with these types of decks. It really depends on what it is.

Oh yeah I forgot about that one card that owns Gobs and is Black.

Citrus-God
06-25-2006, 04:03 PM
Black can handle Burn pretty well to some extent. I mean look at Duress...

The deck can handle Burn. You just to be more conservitive about your cantrips with Confidants, as it only has three functions for you.

1. Get answers
2. Get threats
3. Raise your land count

I'm most likely to sideout Night's Whisper, but Confidant can stay.


Also Confidants help in the Bw Pikula match-up. They get you lands, and help you re-time walk. I've won the land/resource war against them, I'll win the, "My threats are bigger than your one."

Brushwagg
06-25-2006, 07:26 PM
I'm most likely to sideout Night's Whisper, but Confidant can stay.

That is Night's Whispers IS sided out. If Burn is all over your meta you can bring in Chill.

The problem with Dead Guy for the Black splash is it puts you down to 3 removal. So your counters are asked to do alot, but if you get into a creature war the only one to worry about is Shade.

Citrus-God
06-26-2006, 01:30 AM
The thing that makes me scream when I had to take a Bear and Goose to kill it...

Bryant Cook
06-26-2006, 12:32 PM
Shade is alot less scary when playing red. Because they're afraid to tap out, because they're so cautious which means shade is a small little guy. Burn helps out the deadguy match-up so much they can't get a win condition to stick other than scroll and alot of deadguy players cut it. If they didn't needle is in after board. Jedi mind tricking with burn against a shade is great.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
07-02-2006, 02:27 PM
Yeah, I'm not seeing that being greater than just Swordsing the fucking thing and not getting pwned by Dark Ritual, but maybe that's just me.


New uber-Predict setup from Coldsnap.


Mishra's Bauble
0
Artifact
Common
0, Tap: Sacrifice Mishra's Bauble: Look at the top card of target players library. Draw a card at the beginning of the next turns upkeep.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
07-04-2006, 01:48 AM
Question:

Doesn't Threshold just flat-out lose to every form of pure control in the format?

It's unfavored even against the GP builds of Rifter, much less ones packing Wrath or Wing Shards. Wombat seems that much better, although perhaps not as good as Starstorm + Wrath.

It's rolled by MBC and Stax to the point of a near autowin, and U/W Landstill is almost as bad.

I'm fairly confident it loses to the Rock, although I don't have any data here, just pure conjecture on discard + Witness + bigger creatures + Deed being bad for you.

I think it might beat Wildfire, but I haven't really tested it.

No idea on MUC. Does MUC count in this category? I guess it could beat this deck sans a good board clearer. Not sure if Disk counts.

Doesn't it pretty much die to this entire archetype, though?

Tao
07-04-2006, 05:23 AM
I can only talk about Rock without Troll Ascetics because I only test with those. Gro has a real hard time to beat these decks preboard. Wall of Blossoms is better than Mongoose, Baloth / Hierarch are better than Werbear, Discard beats Countermagic and Deed beats Gros whole gameplan. The only chance are very fast beats combined with a Needle on Deed.

But it is not true that Gro always loses to control. White versions can side 3 Geddon in. The Geddon/Mongoose plan is really effective especially vs. Rifter / MBC and very good against Landstill, too.

Bardo
07-04-2006, 12:33 PM
Doesn't Threshold just flat-out lose to every form of pure control in the format?

Mongoose + Geddon go a long way to beating control Rifter and Landstill. Meddling Mage on StP is golden too.

That the deck has a bad match-up against MBC and Stax is irrelevant since no one plays those decks. For all I know the deck may have a terrible match against Secret Force--but if no one's playing it, it doesn't really matter, does it?

Against MUC, presumably, you'd win the same way. Get a Goose on the board and hold your counters to win the huge counter war when you try to resolve Armageddon. Pithing Needle on Shackles will help too. Or Disk. Keg. etc.

Edit - I should have read Tao's post before writing mine. :)

BlindMage
07-04-2006, 07:00 PM
I play Stax, but only when I'm not playing Gro. Rifter is favored vs Gro, but not hugely so (this is for white gro. they are much more favored against the red version). As a few have said, Meddling Mage + Armageddon go a long way towards making control matchups winnable. Personally, I would favor white gro against most forms of blue-based control, since you have nearly as many counters as they do (plus meddling mage and pithing needle), as well as 4/4s for 2. Stax is clearly heavily favored against Gro, but once again those Meddling Magi help you steal a victory, especially since Stax doesn't have removal other than WoG. All this assumes, of course, that you can keep them from getting an early 3sphere or chalice. Point is, Gro has a fighting chance against Stax. Actually, by far the worst matchup for Gro that I've encountered is TheRock. This is outrageously bad, far worse than Rifter. Think Landstill vs Wombat bad. It's that bad. Fortunately for Gro players (though for no reason I can see), not very many people play TheRock in legacy.

To sum up: no, Gro doesn't lose to all forms of pure control, especially not blue. However, many of its worse matchups are control, especially TheRock.

Nightmare
07-05-2006, 11:26 AM
Please focus the discussion on Threshold, not the Goblins vs. Rock matchup.

Citrus-God
07-05-2006, 11:49 PM
Mongoose + Geddon go a long way to beating control Rifter and Landstill. Meddling Mage on StP is golden too.

That the deck has a bad match-up against MBC and Stax is irrelevant since no one plays those decks. For all I know the deck may have a terrible match against Secret Force--but if no one's playing it, it doesn't really matter, does it?

Against MUC, presumably, you'd win the same way. Get a Goose on the board and hold your counters to win the huge counter war when you try to resolve Armageddon. Pithing Needle on Shackles will help too. Or Disk. Keg. etc.

Edit - I should have read Tao's post before writing mine. :)

Bardo, have you tested Armageddon against Stax yet? Because everytime when I test against my friends, they eiter...

1. Dont have enough mana to cast it
2. They think it's pointless trying to cast it because I always get Crucible out.

Bardo
07-06-2006, 12:25 AM
Bardo, have you tested Armageddon against Stax yet? Because everytime when I test against my friends, they eiter...

1. Dont have enough mana to cast it
2. They think it's pointless trying to cast it because I always get Crucible out.

I would never bring Geddon in against Stax--it doesn't do much good against decks that run Diamond Mox and Crucible and having 4 main phase mana available is not easily done. Also, Stax has enough fun messing with your lands, that it doesn't need any help. Against Stax, this is how I board:

+2 Naturalize (I only have 2 in my sideboard)
+1 Engineered Explosives
-3 Swords to Plowshares

When I mentioned Geddon, I was saying it's one of the ways to beat the piss out of Rifter/3cSlide, Landstill and MUC--especially when you have a thresh beater on the board (preferably Mongoose). Then you're playing in classic ErnieGeddon mode--and it works, because the control deck will flounder while they're under enough board pressure to lose.

Citrus-God
07-08-2006, 12:48 AM
umm...

Has anyone used Trygon Predator against Stax yet?

Bane of the Living
07-10-2006, 01:41 PM
I play Stax quite often, its got a great matchup against Thresh. I've probably lost like 1 out of 30 games to them, thats white thresh with Meddling Mage as well. I know its tough if he names Wrath but you still have Smokestack and some players use Powder Keg as well. Another great card against goose n bear.

The only thing that will help are things outside the 1 and 2 mana cc. Chalice just really wins the game, but they have Suppression Field against your fetches as well. So dont expect to see 3 or 4 mana often.

Brushwagg
07-10-2006, 06:32 PM
I think a better choice for Stax is Energy Flux. This will keep the Stax player tapping mana to keep lock parts in play, While the Gro player isn't effected by it. Outside Energy Flux I really can't think of anything that totally hoses it.

Bardo
07-10-2006, 06:52 PM
I think a better choice for Stax is Energy Flux. This will keep the Stax player tapping mana to keep lock parts in play, While the Gro player isn't effected by it. Outside Energy Flux I really can't think of anything that totally hoses it.
Energy Flux is the way to go, but Stax makes up such a small amount of the field and hardly anyone plays it--I wouldn't knock yourself out about it. As for Stax hate, the best cards are Energy Flux (which at least pitches to Force) and Serenity (which can knock out Angel Stax's Suppression Fields and Ghostly Prisons)--both of which are also a hammer whack to the groin against Affinity. I usually just play Naturalize which only trades 1-for-1, but is more useful across against the decks you're more likely to face (Survival, Angel Stompy, etc.) and has an immediate effect.

Evil Roopey
07-17-2006, 10:21 AM
For Day 1 at the D4D.

Place/Color---------Draw Engine--------- Threats
1.W----------------3N/4P/4B/3S---------3MM/2E
10.WR--------------4N/4B/4S------------3MM/3BTS
26.W---------------4P/4PO/4S/4B--------2ME
41.B----------------4P/4PO/4S/4B--------3DC
49.WR--------------4N/4B/4S-------------4MM
55.WR--------------3N/4B/4AK------------4MM/4QD/-4WB
62.W---------------3P/3S/4B--------------1ME/3MM/3GK
64.W---------------4P/4PO/4S/4B---------2ME
71.W---------------4P/3PO/4S/4B---------2ME

Things to note:
-There were absolutely no UGR builds of Thresh for the whole thing.
-Only 2 of the 9 Thresh decks made top25, and both of the builds were running Mental Note and Meddling Mage.
-Portent is gaining popularity.
-The winning list was running Predict and Mental Note.

Mirrislegend
07-17-2006, 12:04 PM
-Portent is gaining popularity.
-The winning list was running Predict

The Predict is the established pattern recently. The Portents are just the appropriate response. But still, how is it that Predict is the new house in Thresh? I rejected it because of speed reasons, but maybe the whole point is just to have some slower draw. Thoughts?

quicksilver
07-17-2006, 12:42 PM
Predict is powerful. It does cost two mana which is one of your slower spells in your deck. But two mana is still fairly cheap. Not only does it put two cards in the yard helping you achieve threshold faster, but it also gains card advantage, not only by allowing you to draw two cards for 1, but also allowing you to mill away a dead card that you brainstormed back, such as a dead pithing needle, land, or daze.

kabal
07-17-2006, 07:44 PM
Has anyone taken a look at:

Perilous Research (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/41/)
1U (2), Instant
Draw two cards, then sacrifice a permanent.

Perilous Research does put two cards in your graveyard. The nice thing it does not require you to sacrifice the permanent has part of the cast cost or before you draw your cards. I can see it being used in response to one of your permanents (Mage, Werebear, Needle, a land) being destroyed.

Not going to advocate that it could replace one of the current mainstream cantrips being played, but definitely seems like it might be a good late game addition in the form of 1 or 2s.

Mirrislegend
07-17-2006, 08:18 PM
So is Predict considered worth playing, as a 4 of, almost all the time now? How does it fit into 8 cantrip versions, such as classic Bardo Thresh?

kabal
07-17-2006, 09:04 PM
So is Predict considered worth playing, as a 4 of, almost all the time now? How does it fit into 8 cantrip versions, such as classic Bardo Thresh?

At this point I would be just guessing since I haven't actually tested the legitimancy of Perilous Research.

As for 16 could cantrip version.

4 BS
4 SV
3 PE
3 PO
2 PR

And the 12 cantrip version

4 BS
3 SV
3 MN
2 PR

Or

4 BS
4 SV
4 MN

and make 2 PR fit. Again, just speculatory at this point.

Moby Dick
07-17-2006, 09:36 PM
i dont like Perilous Research just because its situational if you dont have excess land. i will reveal my tech after the DLD 8-5-06

kabal
07-17-2006, 09:46 PM
i dont like Perilous Research just because its situational if you dont have excess land. i will reveal my tech after the DLD 8-5-06

Thatís why I won't include more than 2. Late game I could see it being beneficial, possibly more than Predict. Unless you are just holding on to some of cantrip to partner with it.

SuckerPunch
07-18-2006, 11:33 AM
With Mishra's Bauble, what do you guys think of running something like this...

4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Predict

Do you think such a build could or should make due without running the 3 Notes normally used.

More importantly, do you think Mishra's Bauble should replace Portent since it costs 0 mana, leaving you open to play threats, fills your yard and combos so well with Predict?

Also about Serum Visions, do you scry before or after you draw a card. Is it your option?

And lastly, should this deck run 2 Counterbalance, since it runs so much topdeck manipulation anyways?

quicksilver
07-18-2006, 11:53 AM
The order you do things is the order printed on the card. With serum visions you definatly have to draw before you scry.

calosso
07-18-2006, 12:17 PM
With Mishra's Bauble, what do you guys think of running something like this...

4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Predict

Do you think such a build could or should make due without running the 3 Notes normally used.

More importantly, do you think Mishra's Bauble should replace Portent since it costs 0 mana, leaving you open to play threats, fills your yard and combos so well with Predict?


I don't think mishra's bauble should replace portent because portent can help you find answers unlike bauble.

quicksilver
07-18-2006, 12:43 PM
Bauble does do some nice things. It has synergy with a good amount of cards. Predict is an obvious one. Fetch lands have synergy with this too, don't like what you see, then shuffle your library. It has synergy with portent because if you use it on yourself you may decide you like the card and want to portent your opponent instead, and if you don't like the card then portent yourself; also if you bauble your opponent and see a great card on top then you can decide to potent him to shuffle it away. It has synergy with serum visions, allowing you to see what is on top if you want to draw it turn one with your visions or if you should cast a different cantrip turn one. It allows for faster threshold because it costs zero mana to play, thus allowing your other cantrips to be played faster.

I think the bauble deserves at least some play testing in grow to see how it works out. Although clearly has synergy with the deck, one of the main problems it has is weather or not it is better than anything the deck already runs.

Moby Dick
07-18-2006, 02:28 PM
bauble is meh, can't pitch it to fow, and doesnt do anything on its own.

SuckerPunch
07-18-2006, 02:44 PM
other than adding to your graveyard and thinning the deck all for 0cc you mean.

Bryant Cook
07-18-2006, 02:53 PM
other than adding to your graveyard and thinning the deck all for 0cc you mean. Does it help increase card quality? Is it better than Mental note/Predict/Brainstorm/Portent/Serum Visions? If we were to play 20 cantrips maybe but it doesn't increase card quality at all. Opt would even be better.

SuckerPunch
07-18-2006, 04:00 PM
The main advantage it has is that it's 0cc. That means you can cast it turn 2 while playing a Meddling Mage, or leaving mana open for counterspell.

Bryant Cook
07-18-2006, 04:14 PM
The main advantage it has is that it's 0cc. That means you can cast it turn 2 while playing a Meddling Mage, or leaving mana open for counterspell.We play daze so we can tap out and counter stuff. If it's main advantage is that it's 0cc, why aren't we playing moxen? That means turn 1 mage OR counterspell. Then on your turn two play another mox and that's a second turn Enforcer! Wait!... If we up the land count we can play mox diamond and make 5c gro!

Nightmare
07-18-2006, 05:22 PM
Or even better, we can keep the discusion in the LMF relevant.

Drkdstryer
07-18-2006, 07:51 PM
We play daze so we can tap out and counter stuff. If it's main advantage is that it's 0cc, why aren't we playing moxen? That means turn 1 mage OR counterspell. Then on your turn two play another mox and that's a second turn Enforcer! Wait!... If we up the land count we can play mox diamond and make 5c gro!

Because it's 0cc that's card neutral, not card disadvantage. You're right, why DOESN'T Thresh play Moxen? Because they cos a card. Bauble doesn't. Well, it doesn't after a turn, but if there's enough of a push to play Portent then Bauble should be (theoretically) fine. It also helps so much with Predict.

Speaking of Portent, isn't the biggest reason to play it to help out with Predict synergy? If so, wouldn't Bauble be a really good replacement for it? I mean, I've never played with Portent so I can't comment on the shuffling aspect, but looking at the top card for free compared to looking at the top 3 for a manas seems like a good trade. In theory anyway.

Moby Dick
07-18-2006, 10:33 PM
bauble doesn't affect the game state in anyway, if all you want is a cantrip, there are much better option for this.

Brushwagg
07-18-2006, 10:59 PM
I really don't see Mishra's Bauble fitting into the deck. It could replace Portent if you run it, but then again Bauble can't be pitched to FOW.

@Perilous Research:It would be run, if it wasn't for the sacrifice. In the first few turns you really don't want to sac needed lands, or a critter and by the late game Threshold shouldn't be a problem. If you really want to draw extra cards splash for Dark Confidant or play the Black version.

Ewokslayer
07-19-2006, 01:16 PM
All this talk about replacing Portent with Mishra's Bauble seem to overlook the fact that Portent allows you to look 5 cards deep into your deck for one mana. That is deeper than any other cantrip in the deck. Mishra's Bauble will only dig 2 deep less than any other cantrip in the deck. In a deck like threshold the quality of the cards drawn is as important if not more important than the quantity of cards drawn
For reference
Cards viewed
Mishra's Bauble 2
Brainstorm 3
Portent (no shuffling) 3
Serum Visions (scry both on top) 3
Brainstorm + Fetch 4
Serum Visions (scry both on bottom) 4
Portent (shuffling) 5

quicksilver
07-19-2006, 01:29 PM
I assume your numbers include your next draw step, that does not seem like it should be included. By that logic, playing no spells digs one card deep. I guess it is ok if what you are looking for is a land that you want to play next turn and not that turn. However if you are looking for a creature this turn, or a counter or removal for your opponents turn, then those numbers don't make much sense.

And bauble has the ability to look very deep. You can bauble into another cantrip then play that cantrip to dig deeper allowing you to dig one card deeper than just playing the cantrip alone for the same amount of mana. It seems that you are forgetting that you can play other spells the same turn as bauble, or on your opponents turn, which is the main reason to play the card. It actually can dig deeper (with no extra mana) than anything else.

For instaance say you bauble and then portent first turn. That allows you to dig (using your math) 6 cards into your deck on turn 1 for only 1 mana and no card disadvantge. Its not the bauble alone that is good, it is combined with other cards that makes it good because it is free alowwing you to still cast all your other cards. Its not like all you can do is go first turn bauble go, then start playing your other cantrips turn two. That is what you are making it sound like; that by playing first turn bauble you only get to dig one card when instead you could dig more cards by playing something else. Why not play bauble and something else first turn and dig father than any thing else could.

Ewokslayer
07-21-2006, 09:32 AM
The numbers do include your next draw step. And yes playing no spells will allow you to dig 1 card deep with your draw. I think it is relevant to count the draw since there are a large number of stacking effects that depending on what action you take (poping a fetch after a Brainstorm, Scrying cards on the bottom of the deck, or shuffling from a Portent) affects whether the card drawn for the turn is new and unknown.
I do understand that Bauble does allow for multple cantrips to be played turn one, but that requires you to actually have another one mana cantrip in hand (as all the options so far have been replacing some number of these with Baubles you can't just assume that you will have them in hand).

Right now it sounds like most of the arguements for Bauble seem to be we can replace these good cantrips that actually dig with a zero mana cycler with a minimally relevant ability if you have a Predict in hand. Plus since it costs zero you can still play a good cantrip that you now have less of in the deck because you are playing Bauble.

I don't believe that Mishra's Bauble is complete trash or can't work in the deck, I just think you have to understand what you are losing by making that choice.
It is possible that Mishra's Bauble would be better suited in the Mental Note versions as those tend to be more aggressive and the bauble could work with Mental Note for a faster Threshold.

Goblin Snowman
07-21-2006, 12:46 PM
Has anyone considered Strategic Planning? The major pitfall of it is it's Sorcery speed, yet it mills as much as Mental Note in exchange for card selection. I would normally play this in a heartbeat, except for how slow it is. Another option would be Omen, with the problem that it puts only itself in the 'yard.

SuckerPunch
07-21-2006, 03:18 PM
The number one reason that Thres plays cantrips (other than Brainstorm) is because it's a way to fill the yard and reach threshold faster.

The fact remains that Bauble is the only card that lets you do it for free and thus also lets you play another cantrip for free the same turn. The fact remains that Thres runs on average 14 cantrips so you WILL have multiple cantrips in your opening hand. On top of which, it makes it so you're essentially playing a 56 card deck without investing any mana into doing so.

Given that, I think Strategic Planning to has a lot of potential too. It's a mental note, but with the card selection of brainstorm+fetchland, without a dependency of fetchlands.

Nightmare
07-21-2006, 03:53 PM
The number one reason that Thres plays cantrips (other than Brainstorm) is because it's a way to fill the yard and reach threshold faster.WRONG. The reason Thresh plays cantrips is to increase it's card quality, ensuring that it has the right answers at the right time. The fact that they fill the yard is secondary, although it allows you to play cost efficient creatures. This is why Baubles are bad, and it is the biggest argument against Mental Note. Neither one allows you to improve card quality, instead they just fill your yard.

Brushwagg
07-21-2006, 09:48 PM
But Mental Note is needed if you don't play Predict, which I don't. But I really don't want to start that argument again so nuff said there.

@Bauble:The biggest problem I have with it is IT CAN"T BE PITCHED TO FOW!! The only card that this could possibly replace is Portent(if you run it). I really think this kinda of a meh card for Gro.

Goblin Snowman
07-21-2006, 10:53 PM
But Mental Note is needed if you don't play Predict, which I don't. But I really don't want to start that argument again so nuff said there.

@Bauble:The biggest problem I have with it is IT CAN"T BE PITCHED TO FOW!! The only card that this could possibly replace is Portent(if you run it). I really think this kinda of a meh card for Gro.

But do you think Stratigic Planning could replace Mentle Note? It mill the same amount, and allows for card selection. Also can be pitched for Force.

AnwarA101
07-21-2006, 11:33 PM
But do you think Stratigic Planning could replace Mentle Note? It mill the same amount, and allows for card selection. Also can be pitched for Force.

If you are going to add a 2cc cantrip Predict is the way to go ofcourse this probably requires running Portent as well to make Predict all more likely to draw you 2 cards. Strategic Planning is interesting and probably better than Note because you can decide what to throw into the yard. But it also costs 1 more mana and is harder to compare. Look at it like this.

Strategic Planning - 3 cards into the yard and 1 in your hand

Predict - 2 cards into the yard and most likely 2 cards in your hand

I think Predict is the better card since just getting that extra in your yard isn't as valuable as getting that extra card into your hand. Gro doesn't have much card advantage, but a little can go a long way.

Goblin Snowman
07-22-2006, 12:00 AM
You forgot to mention Predict offensive use against M. Tutor and E. Tutor. But running predict require you to run 4 Serum Visions and 4 Brainstrom, and it draws 2 maybe 1/2. S. Planning digs deeper as well, regardless of whether you draw two, in addition to milling more.

SuckerPunch
07-22-2006, 02:52 AM
WRONG. The reason Thresh plays cantrips is to increase it's card quality, ensuring that it has the right answers at the right time. The fact that they fill the yard is secondary

If that was actually true, then not only would Thres not run Mental Note which most competitive builds do, but the early Thres builds wouldn't have run cards like opt and peek, which really didn't imrove card quality much if at all.

Yes, the inc is card quality is very important. But do you really think Thres wouldn't be running Peek today if none of the superior cantrips were ever printed.

I still think Bauble's ability to let you play two cantrips turn one, or leave 2 mana open turn 2 is undervalued. But I'll stop now, as it's clear that this discussion is just going to go in circles.

I think both Predict and Strategic Planning are viable based on the rest of the configuration.

Predict obviously works best if you're running...
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Bauble/Portent
3-4 Predict

Planning works best if you have less room for cantrips ala.
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
4 Strategic Planning

This configuration often gets you to threshold faster, and also leaves your deck room to run newer bombs like Worship, Counterbalance? (Has this been tested at all? It works best with instant cantrips or Top) along with 2 Counterspell, 1-2 MisD and a full playset of both Daze and Swords to Plowshore.

Of course, your ability to filter through cards for the best ones when you need them suffers. But atleast you can run MisD which is a huge bomb against Deadguy, one of this deck's worse matchups.

URABAHN
07-22-2006, 10:19 AM
The fact remains that Bauble is the only card that lets you do it for free and thus also lets you play another cantrip for free the same turn. The fact remains that Thres runs on average 14 cantrips so you WILL have multiple cantrips in your opening hand. On top of which, it makes it so you're essentially playing a 56 card deck without investing any mana into doing so.

Why not run both Baubles, then? According to your logic, you'd essentially be running a 52 card deck! There's a damn good reason Gro players aren't already running Urza's Bauble as a 4-of, part of which is that it says draw a card during the next upkeep. Finding a bauble in your opening hand may not be terrible, but finding one or two mid-game is awful because that's another turn you may have to wait to lay down a thresh'd Werebear or Mongoose. It also makes it less likely to chain cantrips because you don't get the card right then and there.


Yes, the inc is card quality is very important. But do you really think Thres wouldn't be running Peek today if none of the superior cantrips were ever printed.

I still think Bauble's ability to let you play two cantrips turn one, or leave 2 mana open turn 2 is undervalued. But I'll stop now, as it's clear that this discussion is just going to go in circles.


If you're going to compare one of the "worse" cantrips, Peek, against Mishra's Bauble, I'd have to give the nod to Peek, even though it costs infinitely more mana. Peek lets you see more than 1 card and it draws you a card right away like most of the other superior cantrips. The biggest advantage to the superior cantrips is they increase your card quality and build threshold. Bauble doesn't increase your card quality and neither does Mental Note.

quicksilver
07-22-2006, 10:55 AM
Mishras bauble has much more card synergy with the deck than does urzas bauble or peek. And if you are so concerned with drawing cards during the next turns upkeep why do you play portent? And mishra's bauble unlike those other cards can increase the quality of your draws.

Bryant Cook
07-22-2006, 04:41 PM
If that was actually true, then not only would Thres not run Mental Note which most competitive builds do, but the early Thres builds wouldn't have run cards like opt and peek, which really didn't imrove card quality much if at all.

Yes, the inc is card quality is very important. But do you really think Thres wouldn't be running Peek today if none of the superior cantrips were ever printed.

I still think Bauble's ability to let you play two cantrips turn one, or leave 2 mana open turn 2 is undervalued. But I'll stop now, as it's clear that this discussion is just going to go in circles.

I think both Predict and Strategic Planning are viable based on the rest of the configuration.

Predict obviously works best if you're running...
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Bauble/Portent
3-4 Predict

Planning works best if you have less room for cantrips ala.
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
4 Strategic Planning

This configuration often gets you to threshold faster, and also leaves your deck room to run newer bombs like Worship, Counterbalance? (Has this been tested at all? It works best with instant cantrips or Top) along with 2 Counterspell, 1-2 MisD and a full playset of both Daze and Swords to Plowshore.

Of course, your ability to filter through cards for the best ones when you need them suffers. But atleast you can run MisD which is a huge bomb against Deadguy, one of this deck's worse matchups.


Early thresh variants also ran Mis-D and dryad. Do you still see them seeing play? No, because they were found to be unnessesary. The reason opt and peek were ran was because of dryad. Do you honestly believe that 8 cards that mill yourself without scrying effects is a great idea? I question you. Bauble doesn't increase card quality it simply draws a card. I don't care what anyone says that's not increasing anything. It's cantripping at the low cost of a timewalk congrats.

Eldariel
07-22-2006, 06:35 PM
Early thresh variants also ran Mis-D and dryad. Do you still see them seeing play? No, because they were found to be unnessesary. The reason opt and peek were ran was because of dryad. Do you honestly believe that 8 cards that mill yourself without scrying effects is a great idea? I question you. Bauble doesn't increase card quality it simply draws a card. I don't care what anyone says that's not increasing anything. It's cantripping at the low cost of a timewalk congrats.

It shows you your topcard, which means that you can shuffle your library if you'd rather see something else. And wtf do you mean by costing a Time Walk? All that happens is you won't be able to cast the card you draw the turn you pop Bauble. Big deal, it's not like you could normally do that anyways (maybe lategame when you have infinite mana, but early on, you either cast a cantrip or a creature). Now, I'm not saying Bauble is an auto-include or anything (since as said, it doesn't pitch to FoW and it's hard to find a slot for it in the deck), but it's got its benefits too, so it seems to warrant consideration.

AngryTroll
07-23-2006, 01:18 AM
I do not believe Bauble has a place in the deck.

It is not blue, so it does not pitch to Force of Will.

Comparing Bauble to any of the other cantrips being used, it clearly falls short.
Brainstorm and Serum Visions are clearly, obviously better cards. I would not even consider removing either for the Bauble. Even without a shuffle effect, Brainstorm digs deeper and faster then the Bauble.

Mental note and Bauble both yield one card in hand, but Mental note does it quickly and adds three cards to the graveyard. Bauble does it very slowly and adds a single card to the graveyard.

I cannot speak from personal experience about Predict and Portent, but Bauble really does not seem better then those two. I could see it as a possibility in these builds, but I still would much, much, much rather draw either of those two cards then Bauble. Arguing that you can play Bauble and another cantrip does not work very well if you are removing other cantrips from the deck to make room for Bauble. You may end up with one more cantrip, but you do not see nearly as many cards over the next few turns. It certainy does not make sense to remove buisness spells for another cantrip, and that leaves the Bauble not in the deck.

Parcher
07-25-2006, 02:22 PM
I am unsure if this belongs here, as I do not typically post on this thread. But, since it has been merged to be the only thread for Threshold, I will begin here until moved.

Many players have expressed their admiration for the new card Counterbalance, and how it seems made for Threshold, but I have seen nothing but speculation, and conjecture on it's actual application. For the past few weeks, I have tried using this card in several different decks, but they have all evolved toward Threshold.

It does not shore up any glaring weaknesses in the deck, nor does it add a new twist on a Legacy standard. What I have found, is it solidifies what the deck already does. That being the use of undercosted threats, and deck manipulation to put constant pressure on your opponent while disrupting any threats, or answers they attempt.

It is a tempo card which favors a deck not only able to effectively meet it's requirements, but one that take advantage of the tempo it gives. In a deck like Threshold, one that wins with virtual card advantage, that being card quality and applicability versus actual extra draws, the fact that is does this without costing any cards besides itself, and that the cards that enable it are already mainstays for the deck are what made this no only seem possible to me, but extemely attractive.

Obviously, this must be shown in practice. I have played more games than I had time for recently, and in the deck I have somewhat settled on, these are the results I have so far. My deck(list to follow) contains 17 one costed cards, and 19 two costed cards. In Legacy, the current trend is to utilized the most broken cards at this cost, as speed is the issue. Counterbalance in Threshold can take full advantage of this to create tempo swings in games where they may not normally be possible.

I will not bother to mention which matchups are good, bad, helped, or hindered by this. But below I have a list of the cards in the meta that are easily stopped by normal progression of cantrips in Threshold, with Counterbalance on the board.

Solidarity: High Tide, Brainstorm, Reset, Remand, Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth, Opt, Peek, Impulse.

Goblins: To be honest, with the variety of casting costs, and Aether Vial, this card is less than useful against Goblins.

Threshold: Obviously a monster swing in the mirror.

Angel Stompy: Isamaru, Savannah Lions, Umezawa's Jitte, Disenchant, Soltari Priest, Silver Knight, Swords to Plowshares, Tithe

Deadguy: Dark Ritual, Hymn to Tourach, Dark Confidant, Duress, Cursed Scroll, Swords to Plowshares, Nantuko Shade, Sinkhole

Burn: Every spell but Flamebreak, Browbeat, and Fireblast

Iggy Pop: Every spell but Tendrils of Agony and Ill-Gotten Gains (and LED before sideboarding)

Zoo: Well....all their spells are one or two casting cost, aren't they?

And my personal favorite.....Life from the Loam

With nineteen two costed spells, and a great deal of manipulation to place them when needed, this is the only deck I can think of that does not use Chalice of the Void, and yet can counter Life from the Loam almost every turn without losing a single card.

My current decklist is as follows:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Fledgeling Dragon

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
3 Predict
3 Portent
3 Counterbalance
3 Daze
2 Counterspell

4 Magma Jet

2 Pithing Needle

Sideboard:

4 Pyroclasm
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Winter Orb
3 Naturalize
2 Flametongue Kavu

I am certain that this deck is not optimallized. I have found that in using Counterbalance, that the Red version of Threshold is the most effective. Since in my opinion Counterbalance is a much better version of Meddling Mage, Swords alone was not worth it. The burn available to the Red version solidifies the more troublesome matchups versus certain Aggro decks that Counterbalance cannot address.

Magma Jet is key. While you can make educated guesses in stacking your deck against your opponent's play, Jet and Brainstorm actually allow you to counterspell, with an additional effect. Crypt allows you to stop LED recursion. And FTK gives you a third and fourth 4 costed spell in games where this is needed.

My unfamiliarity with playing with Threshold in general has caused this to take a while to compile, but in the above mentioned matchups, it can take a good match,(Solidarity) and make it a slaughter. And can take a difficult match, (Loam/Confinement/Slide) and make it favorable. Since the red version was the weakest against Combo and Control, I think it's burn for Aggro, combined with Counterbalance's help can be very good.

Brushwagg
07-25-2006, 08:52 PM
I think any of the 3 colors of Gro can be reworked a little to fit in Counter Balance. Black might need some added work because of Bob, but I would never cut him just to fit in CB.

I know this goes aganist everything that makes Gro the machine it is, but 1-2 copies of Sensei's Diving Top might need to be fit in some where. With the shuffling and deck tricks that Gro already has, Top could truly make CB a Chalice for anything up to and including a casting cost of 4. Some serious testing needs to be done, I'm currently trying to get 4 CBs and test.

That said I think the White verison is going to have a very easy time fitting in CB. It already has access to Meddling Mage, which can cut off the 0's and 5 pluses if needed.

@Parcher:I like the way your list looks, but I think Counterspell can be cut. I would test out Top in that slot and see how it works for you. I do think that is going to be totally awesome, or totally aweful. No in the middle.

Parcher
07-25-2006, 09:16 PM
Top was actually the first card I tried. The problem I had with it is it actually prohibits you from reaching Threshold. Also, the decks this one had the most problems with to begin with either run multiple disenchant effects, or Needles.

I tried White Thresh first, as I actually have all the cards for that, and was hoping. The problem expounds greatly in that version. Mage is awful against Aggro. Counterbalance is ineffective against some Aggro. Plow is the only removal. And you can't run Mental Note with Counterbalance effectively to speed up your clock.

It turns the deck from an Aggro/Control Tempo deck to a Control deck, which it cannot do in most cases. I think of the Red version as an inverse version of Sligh. Running disruption along with undercosted-for-their-power creatures, and burn to clear the way, or finish the game. When your creatures can protect themselves through size or untargetability, being able to shut down most removal through Counterbalance, and most larger creatures, or bombs from opponents with the remainder of your countermagic suite, I think it behoves you to play to this deck's strengths. Beating pure Aggro is a tough enough test. I have been unable to water down White Thresh's already mediocre pre-board game against it successfully with Counterbalance to include it.

In which I wholly agree that this card will either be breakable, or not used at all. I am simply taking longer to flesh out these ideas with a deck I am still learning the nuances of.

Bryant Cook
07-26-2006, 01:50 PM
When I finally see Counterbalance going into gro it will be a two of, because gro cannot shape it's whole deck around for an enchantment. The card is a more of a HEY! look I drew it. Than I want to cast it turn two and pretend to play stasis. The gro players of Syracuse were discussing this awhile ago to be honest, I came to the conclusion that top would be bad. Unless you were also running Bob the builder and if so what are you going to cut for top AND counterbalance? This card will divide gro variants and gro players. Because it fits easily into white and not into the other two colors. But the problem with it is that you want to base your deck off it but you can't it's something you've got to roll with and scry/b-storm set up. All in all is counterbalance really worth the hassle? Is it going to lock out your opponent or gain enough virtual card advantage for it to be worth a slot?

Moby Dick
07-26-2006, 01:57 PM
When I finally see Counterbalance going into gro it will be a two of, because gro cannot shape it's whole deck around for an enchantment. The card is a more of a HEY! look I drew it. Than I want to cast it turn two and pretend to play stasis. The gro players of Syracuse were discussing this awhile ago to be honest, I came to the conclusion that top would be bad. Unless you were also running Bob the builder and if so what are you going to cut for top AND counterbalance? This card will divide gro variants and gro players. Because it fits easily into white and not into the other two colors. But the problem with it is that you want to base your deck off it but you can't it's something you've got to roll with and scry/b-storm set up. All in all is counterbalance really worth the hassle? Is it going to lock out your opponent or gain enough virtual card advantage for it to be worth a slot?

In reality, its worse than a chalice set for 1 or 2, besides the fact it can be pitched to fow. At most its a good sb card for the miror match (or burn, but nobody plays that)

Parcher
07-26-2006, 03:00 PM
Worse for whom? A Chalice set at one or two is one of the best cards against Threshold. Counterbalance is non-symmetrical.

I can see it being a sideboard card, but you do not have to bulid your deck around it. The reason for it's possible inclusion in Threshold is that the deck is already built to use it. Top will not work, and Bob is awful with Counterbalance for two reasons. One, you will always take damage if stacking your deck to use Counterbalance. Two he throws off your math with Portent and Scry effects, epsecially because an aggro opponent will always know how much damage you are going to take.

The key I've found to using the card is based on probability. You use your stacking effects to place the costed spell of either the most likely play by your opponent, or the most dangerous card they could cast. Obviously you can use your few instant speed effects to alter this when able.

I am unsure yet whether or not it merits a slot in this deck. I'm merely stating the results I have had, and attempting to find out the results of others who may have tried it in this deck to determine this for myself.

Brushwagg
07-26-2006, 08:09 PM
That's enough of the Bob bashing. Bob > Counter Balance. Cards draw > Life Loss.

But I will agree with you that Bob is counter productive when you have Counter Balance on the table.

I have to agree with Wastedlife, Top is bad for straight Gro. But I really don't see any other way to get the full effect of CB without it. Then it becomes worse then Daze, and a very conditional Counterspell.

Parcher
07-26-2006, 09:47 PM
It all depends on how you define conditional. Daze is most definately conditional. Force of Will is most definately conditional, though you can use it in many more instances than Daze. If you mean by too conditional that it will be useful less often than Daze, lets look at some statisics.

In the last D4D I took either the top placing, or most consistant version of the decks to beat. I then counted the number of one and two costed spells maindecked. Now remember in just my example, there are 17 one mana and 22two mana spells.

Threshold(Bardo): 1)22. 2)15.

Solidarity(Deep6er): 1)12. 2)17.

Angel Stompy(Canook): 1)14. 2)14.

Goblins(Smart Version): 1)12. 2)8. (Just for completeness)

Deadguy Ale(Bowles): 1)11. 2)17.

B/R Sui(Anwar): 1)15. 2)16.

Without the low land count, Fetchlands, and copious amounts of deck manipulation, inherent in Threshold, that's still better than a 25% chance of hitting against most of these decks. I would say that alone would be better than Daze. I doesn't cost a land drop, and pays for itself after more than one use. I also think over the course of a full game, Daze is dead more than 25% of the time.

Now you take into account all the above mentioned ways Threshold has to increase this percentage, and I see a formidable tempo machine. I'm awful with numbers, but I can see odds pretty well. When you know how many cards in hand your opponent has, the amount of mana available, and in most cases, the cards in their deck, is it really so hard to believe you will be able to successfully use this several times?

Unlike many, I never made the claim that Counterbalance was broken, but if it works several times during the course of a game, at the cost of one card and two mana since the deck manipulation was already in Threshold, and you are still able to counter the spell anyway since you reveal while it is still on the stack, doesn't that seem to have merit?

Binary Star
08-01-2006, 04:44 AM
2 Questions: What is the particular cause for so much ugr builds being used lately, and so little white?

How many stifles should be run between md/sb?

Evil Roopey
08-01-2006, 09:34 AM
What is the particular cause for so much ugr builds being used lately, and so little white?

There wasn't a single UGR build at the most recent D4D. Where are you getting that there is a lot?

Bardo
08-01-2006, 11:24 AM
2 Questions: What is the particular cause for so much ugr builds being used lately, and so little white?

How many stifles should be run between md/sb?

1) Because UGR is stronger against Goblins, and some forms of random aggro--because of Pyroclasm, burn, etc. UGR is stronger in some metas; ditto for UGW. Honestly, I think it often comes down to personal taste and access to the appropriate dual lands.

2) I'd say 0. But if the correct number is greater than 0, then it's not more than 2. Sure there's a lot of stuff that you want to Stifle, but not so much that I can really really get behind its inclusion.

Bane of the Living
08-02-2006, 08:17 PM
I found this on www.Morphling.de

Iserlohn, Germany 23.07.2006

At a 64 participant tournament this list came in 3rd. With a record of 6-1.

4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Note
3 Predict
4 Serum Visions
3 Burning-Tree Shaman
3 Fire/Ice
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Magma Jet

Lands (18):
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
1 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Hidden Gibbons
1 Hydroblast
2 Naturalize
2 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroclasm
3 Tormond's Crypt

I like the use of BTS here. His huge body must help the deck against the mirror and gobs even more. His build is very aggro with the additional body and the red burn spells.

Angel of Despair
08-02-2006, 08:50 PM
Wow, I have been thinking of changing from UGW a little. Maybe I'll do some testing with this build, or something close.

Lukas Preuss
08-03-2006, 06:29 AM
I found this on www.Morphling.de

Iserlohn, Germany 23.07.2006

At a 64 participant tournament this list came in 3rd. With a record of 6-1.

4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Note
3 Predict
4 Serum Visions
3 Burning-Tree Shaman
3 Fire/Ice
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Magma Jet

Lands (18):
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
1 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Hidden Gibbons
1 Hydroblast
2 Naturalize
2 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroclasm
3 Tormond's Crypt

I like the use of BTS here. His huge body must help the deck against the mirror and gobs even more. His build is very aggro with the additional body and the red burn spells.

People have been running Burning Tree Shaman in UGr Gro for a while in Germany. It is a lot better than Fledging Dragon due to it's easier casting cost and it's very useful ability.

By the way, another card that sees a lot of play around here recently is Hidden Gibbons. I haven't read most of this thread, but if you guys haven't considered Gibbons as a sideboard card yet, you might want to try it. It's usually sided in against the Mirror, Solidarity/Spring Tide, Burn, and maybe permission based control like Landstill.

Penguins&Bagels
08-05-2006, 11:00 PM
That's pretty hawt tech actually. I could see this thing doing something insane in the Thresh mirror.

Bryant Cook
08-06-2006, 12:27 PM
Alright. I guess I should say what Shitlist has been doing with the deck, Now that Kadilak's Dual land Draft 2 is over. Mr.Nightmare and I, have been working on 4c gro. We both ended up 4-2. 4 colors? No, not U/g/r/w that's awful, not to mention unnessesary. We've had a different approach U/g/w/b and U/g/r/b. Turn's out Dark Confidant's crazy card advantage system was too good to pass up. Here's what I've been messing around with.
// Lands
4 [B] Volcanic Island
3 [R] Tropical Island
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [B] Underground Sea
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [OV] Island

// Creatures
1 [JU] Fledgling Dragon
4 [OD] Werebear
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [OD] Predict
4 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
3 [MM] Counterspell
2 [OD] Ghastly Demise

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [WL] Phyrexian Furnace
SB: 4 [OV] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [ON] Naturalize
SB: 2 [B] Winter Orb
SB: 2 [LE] Withered Wretch

Di
08-06-2006, 03:27 PM
2 [b] Underground Sea

SB: 2 [LE] Withered Wretch

Wtf? Awful.

Bryant Cook
08-06-2006, 03:30 PM
Wtf? Awful.
Does the thresh mirror have wasteland? Unless you're living in germany playing against 4c gro, It doesn't matter. It cost BB you have BB, end of story.

Whit3 Ghost
08-06-2006, 04:23 PM
It's worse against Goblins. In testing I had you dead to rights if you didn't draw THREE clasms. Now Goblins actually has a decent shot at cutting you off of red. It's also worse in the mirror because it ads to color screw issues. The ONLY reason you went 4-2 and I went 1-4 is because you got to play good matchups after you went 0-2(Zompy, Goblins, 2x Solidarity).

Nightmare
08-06-2006, 05:17 PM
It's worse against Goblins. In testing I had you dead to rights if you didn't draw THREE clasms. Now Goblins actually has a decent shot at cutting you off of red. It's also worse in the mirror because it ads to color screw issues. The ONLY reason you went 4-2 and I went 1-4 is because you got to play good matchups after you went 0-2(Zompy, Goblins, 2x Solidarity).Wasteland is an issue. I banked on not seeing them in numbers during this event, and it worked out, the only match I saw them in was vs. Dirt, and I lost. Its actually a metagame call. The bonus of playing with Bob is really great, but if you are in a field with Wastelands prevalent, 4 colors may be a stretch.

Brushwagg
08-06-2006, 07:57 PM
About time you guys made it public that you jumped on the "Bob Wagon". Bob is insane in Gro. You could also board Engineered Plague. That way Goblins really needs to cut you off of 2 Colors.

Bryant Cook
08-06-2006, 08:14 PM
It's worse against Goblins. In testing I had you dead to rights if you didn't draw THREE clasms. Now Goblins actually has a decent shot at cutting you off of red. It's also worse in the mirror because it ads to color screw issues. The ONLY reason you went 4-2 and I went 1-4 is because you got to play good matchups after you went 0-2(Zompy, Goblins, 2x Solidarity).
That's the thing, I wasn't dead if I was holding 3 Clasms I was never near death. Not to mention why fear wasteland? Wasteland is for chumps, I have needle for goblins. Which I didn't even board in against the goblins match-up I played, I had insane Bob adavantage against goblins and won because of it. That and him flipping 2 clasms in a row... The only time you ever fear wasteland is when it's recurring wasteland other than that shake it off and be a man.

@Engineered Plague- Too narrow, to not mention I already have a great goblins match-up. Clasm > Plague in the SB, Clasm deals with randomness.