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Bardo
11-23-2005, 03:46 PM
by Bardo, Ridiculous Hat and Mad Zur

Serum Visions? Sleight of Hand? Daze? Werebear? You're joking, right?

Like Fish, the cards that Threshold/Gro employs appear to be crap. But when you put them all together, you end up with a powerful set of complimentary strategies that is successful in developing a potent aggressive-control plan while simultaneously stunting your opponent's game plan. Seen another way, Threshold is a model of deck-building efficiency: free countermagic, a cheap and robust draw engine, 4/4 mana elf/beaters for 1G, etc. But this isn't apparent just by looking at deck lists.

What's often missed by a cursory glance at a typical Threshold/Gro deck is the deck's versatility and the subtle inner-synergies between the card interactions.

Cantrips: find land early; find threats/answers later; allow us to cheat on land count; fills the graveyard for threshold creatures; combo with Predict
Counters (free): allow us to tap out to play threats while offering defense; create "virtual mana" for an already land-light deck; used offensively in aggro-control mode; fills the graveyard with cards for threshold without spending mana
Removal: StP used to remove a threat (defense); remove a blocker (offense); disrupt recursion; gain life against burn
Fetchlands: fixes mana; combos with Brainstorm; fills the graveyard for threshold; virtual "basic land" for a three-color base
Werebear: accelerant in early game; strong blocker in mid-game; savage beater in late-game
Meddling Mage: "counters" spells while putting your opponent on a clock

It is these often overlooked synergies that make the deck so deceptively powerful. Because, let's face it, the decks looks like shit. It also helps that the Threshold/Gro has a highly relevant game plan in the current Legacy metagame.

Threshold has put up a respectable showing in the past few months (see Appendix II), but its ability to place three people in the Top 8 of GP: Philadelphia (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gpphi05/welcome) has given Threshold a promotion into the LMF.

I. THE CORE

The basic skeleton of the deck:

Draw: 12-16
Counters: 10-12
Creatures: 10-14
Removal: 4-8
Lands: 17-18

The archetypal list:

<Draw>
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
*4-8 others*

<Counters>
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
*1-3 others*

<Creatures>
4 Werebear
*6-10 others*

<Removal>
*4-8 slots*

<Land>
6-8 Fetchlands
6-8 Dual Lands
2-5 Basic Land

The low land count, massive amounts of cheap card-drawing, and undercosted beaters are hallmarks of the deck.

There are several ways to go with this build and there's a significant amount of unexplored territory remaining in the archetype. The base is always Blue and Green, this gives us our counters, draw engine, and beaters. You can stop there, developing Flores' U/G Threshold build (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/8714.html) for Legacy, probably adding Wasteland and pondering yet another deck where Life from the Loam can be degenerate. But most people have added a tertiary support color, and this is properly where the discussion begins.

II. BLUE/WHITE/GREEN
As in days of yore (2001-02), splashing White into the Blue/Green base has the effect of making our weak match-ups (aggro) strong, while making our already strong match-ups (combo and control) even stronger. At the cost of increasing our exposure to non-basic hate, Thresh/Gro acquires several cards that are hard to replace:

Swords to Plowshares. Perhaps the most obvious and ubiquitous splash card, this offers a powerful answer not only to the omnipresent goblin threat (and especially Goblin Lackey) but also gives the deck a powerful answer to creatures of any size. This spell is often cited as the most efficient spot removal card ever printed, and after playing with it, one would be hard-pressed to disagree. Further, StP stymies creature recursion (Factory/Crucible, Tog/Genesis, etc.) and can be used as life gain if we're only one attack phase from winning a game. At the cost of a single white mana, you can't beat it.

Meddling Mage. While this card has fallen out of favor with some players, our experiences tell us that this is still a potent tool in many matchups, especially in the control/combo matchups. It is a proactive disruption card combined with an efficient threat, and has quite a powerful effect on the game state. With a pair of these, many combo decks are without their most necessary engine card and the ability to restore access to it.

And while some may be skittish about playing maindeck Magi in an unknown field, it's not that hard to read what your opponent is playing from the first few land drops and their opening turns. It's also worth noting that seven maindeck Meddling Magi made it into the Top 8 of GP: Philadelphia (Lam had one in his sideboard) -- and that was hardly a "known metagame". In other words, don't be a pussy.

And as a skill-tester, Meddling Mage truly rewards those who know what they're doing.

Mystic Enforcer. While Thresh/Gro already has many undercosted threats, this card is about as efficient as you can get at the high end of the mana curve. For a mere four mana investment (which can be played off three lands and Werebear mana), one is rewarded with an extremely powerful evasive creature that can typically end the game in three swings without assistance. The protection from black is just gravy but occasionally makes for near auto-wins -- for example, Lam Phan's game 1 against Chris Pikula in the top 8 of GP: Philadelphia.

It is also a huge pain in Dredge-a-Tog's ass: 6/6, flying, protection from black is actually pretty good here. ;)

Disenchant/Seal of Cleansing. Typically Gro has problems with certain non-creature permanents, and sometimes the original answer is the best. Disenchant has always been the very definition of a versatile and efficient answer, and very rarely will this card be completely dead. While not everyone plays with this card, the rise of the white control decks packing Humility, certainly justify it.

Armageddon. The original disruptive threat, Armageddon frequently steals games against heavy control decks, allowing you to play in classic ErnieGeddon fashion. With Nimble Mongoose and/or Werebear on the table before this spell resolves, many slow reactive decks such as Landstill or Wombat have an almost impossible time recovering. Thresh/Gro's ability to gain a fast advantage with undercosted threats and then protect Armageddon and the rest of its cheap threats with free counterspells, makes the card a perfect fit for the archetype.

There are other potential options, and one may also note Tivadar's Crusade or Dueling Grounds as Goblin countermeasures, but really these effects are not exclusive to the white splash; Pyroclasm is present in the red splash and serves a very similar purpose.

Two lists...

UWG Threshold/Gro
by Ridiculous Hat
T8; Grand Prix: Philadelphia

4 Meddling Mage
3 Mystic Enforcer
4 Werebear

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict
3 Sleight Of Hand

4 Force Of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Daze
1 Disrupting Shoal

4 Swords To Plowshares
3 Pithing Needle

4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

<sideboard>
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Nimble Mongoose
4 Hydroblast
3 Armageddon
3 Tivadar's Crusade


UWG Threshold/Gro
by Bardo

4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
2 Sleight of Hand

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
1 Disrupting Shoal

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant / Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Meddling Mage
4 Werebear
3 Mystic Enforcer

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

<Sideboard>
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Tivadar's Crusade
3 Armageddon
2 Pithing Needle

III. BLUE/RED/GREEN
The primary advantage of splashing red in Gro/Threshold is that it offers the most versatile range of efficient removal. Burn helps a great deal against most aggro decks, primarily Goblins. The biggest disadvantage to red is a vulnerability to larger creatures; Angel Stompy and RGSA, in particular, will give the deck some trouble. Combo and control matchups are affected only slightly; the deck lacks the disruption of Meddling Mage but gains a quicker clock to compensate. Beyond the removal, the red splash also affects your creature choices and sideboard options (Pyroclasm and REB), while the rest of the deck remains relatively unchanged.

Removal:

Red's spot removal selection has as much depth as black's, but with the unique advantage that none of it is ever dead. Even in the worst-case scenario where you have large (or pro-red) creatures to contend with, your removal will turn into reach and help you win the race.

In deciding what removal to run, you have to weigh efficiency (1CC burn) against versatility (2CC burn). This is highly metagame-dependant, but the aggro-dominated Legacy tends to favor the former. Lightning Bolt is the first choice for cheap burn, and other less efficient cards such as Chain Lightning and Shock are available for removal slots beyond the first. However, the versatility of Fire/Ice and Magma Jet is significant - the former replaces itself at worst, and generates card advantage at best. The latter serves as library manipulation and burn at once, and has synergy with Predict. The choice comes down to the metagame; what kind of creatures do you have to deal with, and how much time will you have?

Creatures:

Werebear and Nimble Mongoose fill the first eight creature slots, as red doesn't offer anything that competes with them at that cost. The third creature can be Fledgling Dragon or Sea Drake, depending on build and metagame. The former strains the manabase more, generally requiring more Volcanic Islands (and if you see recurring Wasteland often, consider a basic Mountain). However, its ability makes it the fastest finisher available to the archetype; it can reduce an opponent from twenty to zero in three turns. Sea Drake takes five turns to do this (and sets back your land drops), but it's much easier on the manabase and more synergistic with Winter Orb, a powerful sideboard option. Dragon is superior in combat but Drake is easier to cast through mana denial.

Sideboard:

The most important red sideboard card is Pyroclasm - the cheapest sweeper available to the archetype, and more versatile than Tivadar's Crusade. Four will be critical as long as Goblins remains on top, and in the right metagame it may be correct to shift some to the maindeck. If necessary, you can even make use of a plethora of secondary sweepers such as Earthquake, Rolling Earthquake, and Steam Blast. You could also use your sideboard to pack in even more spot removal, from cheap burn that can't fit in the maindeck to the powerful Flametongue Kavu.

Beyond removal, your red sideboard cards will be mostly color-hosers. Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast are the next most important sideboard cards, bolstering your countermagic in the control and combo matchups. Once again, there's more than enough possibility for redundancy - you can run any number between zero and eight. These do their part to compensate for the lack of Meddling Mage and Armageddon, though they are more specific. You also have access to Flashfires and Anarchy to combat some of the white decks that tend to be Gro/Threshold's more difficult matchups, but these are quite narrow and thus metagame-specific. Rabid Wombat and Rifter, however, are quickly growing in popularity, so keep Flashfires in mind.

Here are two contrasting lists of UGR Gro/Threshold that illustrate two basic directions the deck can take (the first being my current list). Alix's list is much like a traditional Gro deck, with 4 removal slots, 15 draw spells, and 10 counterspells, but Pat's utilizes redundancy, running a full 12 counterspells and 8 removal spells. Notice that while the second list has less pure draw (and none that generates card advantage), Ice packs velocity into the removal slot.

Pat McGregor (Sarcasto), GP Philly, 6th:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Fledgling Dragon

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire//Ice

4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
2 Island

Sideboard:
4 Pyroclasm
3 Winter Orb
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Naturalize
2 Pithing Needle

Alix Hatfield (Obfuscate Freely), GP Philly, 43rd:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
3 Sea Drake

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Counterspell
3 Stifle

4 Lightning Bolt

4 Predict
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Portent

3 Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest

Sideboard:
4 Pyroclasm
3 Winter Orb
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Naturalize
2 Tormod's Crypt

So you may be asking: should I splash white or red (or black)? A quick review of the options:

/White

Maindeck
- Swords to Plowshares
- Meddling Mage
- Mystic Enforcer

Sideboard Options
- Armageddon
- Tivadar's Crusade / Sphere of Law / CoP: Red
- Serenity
- Ray of Revelation
- Sacred Ground
- Wrath of God

/Red

Maindeck
- Fire/Ice
- Fledgling Dragon
- Magma Jet
- Lightning Bolt

Sideboard Options
- Pyroclasm
- Red Elemental Blast
- Flametongue Kavu
- Thoughts of Ruin (?)

The choice is up to the reader. The red build has a better game against goblins, and is overall easier to play; frequently a slight misstep with the white build will lead to a game loss. However, the white build has better all-around matchups and is generally better-equipped to handle rogue creations, e.x. Orlove Reanimator. UGR is a better choice for some metagames, but UGW has the tools to deal with anything that it faces and is generally better at rewarding high levels of playskill.

IV. HOW TO PLAY THE DECK
(All are encouraged to review the first half of Part 2 (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/8752.html) of Bardo's UWG Threshold primer for general play information. Note: this was written a year ago and is somewhat out of date.)

Oftentimes when people first pick up this deck, they are greeted by loss after loss against many archetypes. The deck seems to be underpowered and inconsistent upon first inspection, and picking it up without understanding the strategy behind it often is an exercise in frustration. This is almost always due to critical misassignment of the deck's role and ignorance the complicated decision-tree you must navigate, but we are here to explain the basic strategies that are the most effective against the different archetypes. But first, the overarching mission statement...

YOU ARE NOT A LONG-TERM CONTROL DECK. If you try to play as though you can counter everything and as though you have inevitability, you will lose. You do not have much (pure) card advantage and you do not have the long-game inevitability that Landstill or MWC (Wombat) do. You must apply pressure to your opponent in the midgame and end it before your opponent has a chance to recover from your initial flurry of cheap countermagic and beaters. Nothing is more important than this philosophy to the deck and this is why the deck only has two actual Counterspells; you cannot afford to keep mana open in the midgame when you should be dropping threats to win the game.

A. AGGRO
Early game (turns 1 through 3 or 4): You are the control. You must protect your face to get to the midgame and reach the point of having threats in the hand and 7 cards in the bin. Use your Dazes against important threats and Swords anything that threatens to take the game away from you in the beginning, especially Goblin Lackey. You must blunt the initial assault so that your superior creatures can end the game. It is also acceptable to blindly Pith Wasteland in this matchup--if everyone's land works just to play spells, your average spell is better than theirs. So it's often helpful to spend a Needle as insurance.

Goblins: The cards that threaten you most are Lackey (gets Ringleader and other broken goblins into play), Piledriver (due to massive damage potential quickly), AEther Vial (gets Ringleader and other broken goblins into play without the chance to counter them), and Ringleader (lets them outlast your countermagic and removal). Under NO circumstances should you let Ringleader resolve, as that is their key card in the matchup. Your opening hand can typically deal with theirs, especially if you Pith their Vial or Swords their Lackey. Ringleader gives them basically a new hand and you can't allow that. The chief goal in the early game is to stop anything that gets Ringleader into play and keep Piledriver from killing you. An early Meddling Mage on Lightning Bolt is a surprisingly effective Lackey blocker.

Midgame (turns 3 through 5): You are now assuming the role of the beatdown. You must switch roles now or you will be overrun by a beatdown deck's inevitability. At this point their hand is largely exhausted and you should have a few powerful threats ready to land: a threshed Werebear or Mystic Enforcer. It does not often matter if you have a counter in hand unless your opponent is playing a legitimate threat to your plan. Drop your threat and prepare for the attack.

Endgame (turns 5 through 8 or so): You should be damning all torpedos forward at this point, using your counterspells to protect your creatures and potentially stop any game-winning threats that they've drawn into. Most decks are incapable of dealing with a couple Werebears or an Enforcer once their initial attack has been stopped, so don't be afraid to just reduce their life to zero.

B. COMBO
You are the control for the entire game here, as most every combo deck in this format has a faster win than you, if they can push through your disruption. Luckily, you have several extremely potent disruption tools and better cheap threats than most aggro decks. You can easily stop them from going off if they attempt to do anything in the early game, and by the late-game you slightly shift your role to control with a threshed beatdown creature in play to finish the game while still maintaining your advantage.

Your first Meddling Mage should name whatever vital combo piece your opponent needs to go off and your second Meddling Mage should name the answer to the firest one (i.e. against Flame Vault, the first Mage names Time Vault (or Fusillade if Vault is in play) and the second one names Burning Wish.) Against Solidarity, name "High Tide" first, then "Cunning Wish." Just set up your hand with cantrips, play a few threats and win while they struggle to get their combo pieces together. Typically Thresho/Gro is regarded as the worst possible matchup for combo decks, and after playing the matchups, one can easily understand why. At times it almost feels like you're the beatdown in this matchup, because you will always drop the first threat-- but this is solely due to the fact that they cannot realistically employ their plan while they sit helpless.

C. CONTROL
You are the beatdown here, but this time they have better tools. Typically Pithing Needle and Meddling Mage are very potent weapons here, but you mustn't be afraid to just run single threats out there and start bashing. Daze anything you can and don't be afraid of counterspells-- typically Landstill has a pretty weak counterbase and your spells will resolve more often than you might think, especially if backed by a crucial Daze.

Landstill: This deck is not favored against you, no matter how tough it may seem. Typically Needles will want to hit Wastelands or Factories, leaving them with very few threats. With a Meddling Mage naming Swords, all you have to do is counter Wrath effects and they have a lot of trouble winning the game before you. Don't be afraid to break Standstill, as typically they'll just draw more inefficient cards that don't affect you that much. After board, Armageddon is a wrecking ball when you have a threshold creature on the board, so just save your free counters to defend it and you should be able to take it home without much trouble.

Wombat: This matchup is significantly harder for you, but it is far from unwinnable. The main threats in this matchup are Humility and Wing Shards; Humility because it makes it nigh-impossible to win and Wing Shards because it's their only uncounterable removal spell. Mage typically should name Shards because of this. The only spells you really care about countering are Humility and Wrath effects. If they Abeyance through a Wrath, do not try to fight it. They have very few ways to gain card advantage in the matchup, where you will be swimming in card drawing. You will typically have no more than two threats in play at any given time, though obviously this can change late-game if you have a counter and an extra guy will give you lethal damage. Also, an early Pithing Needle on Eternal Dragon can potentially hamstring an opponent with a land-light draw, so don't be afraid to run it out there. Post-board Mongoose and Armageddon are both huge and tilt the matchup in your favor if played properly. Also, if you have Winter Orb in your sideboard, this is the matchup for it. It slows their development down to a crawl while you are less hampered.

(Specific sideboard details are covered in Part 4 (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10811.html) of Bardo's Threshold primer.)

The most important thing is to playtest matchups and realize what the most important threats are for you in each match. You only have a limited amount of permission so learning how to stop the most dangerous threats is of paramount importance. You don't have much actual card advantage, so do not act as though you can own the lategame.

Also, a special note on Predict. You will set up this card less often than you might think. While in the control matchups you have the time and the necessity to make Predict a potent engine, a lot of the time in aggro matchups when you need to quickly assume the beatdown role, Predict will target yourself and name a 4-of that you haven't seen yet. Getting early threshold is very important and putting three cards in your bin is not to be underestimated. Don't be paralyzed by the possibility of a cool play when a simple one will do.

Appendix I: The Legacy UWG-Threshold Primer
by Bardo (parts 1 - 4) and Strick09 (parts 1 & 2)

Part 1: Design and Construction (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=8731)
Part 2: Strategy and Matchups (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=8752)
Part 3: Tuning the Maindeck and Sideboard (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10669.html)
Part 4: Strategy and Sideboard Guide (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10811.html)

Appendix II: Recent successful builds

Dortmund (GPT) (19 November 2005): (http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=314) First Place UWG), 3rd and 4th place (URG)
Bremen (24 November 2005) (http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=313): First Place (UWG), Seventh Place (URG)
Grand Prix: Philadelphia (12-13 November 2005) (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gpphi05/welcome): 3 in the Top 8 (!)
Bremen (27 October 2005) (http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=306): Third & Fourth Place
Hamburg (16 October 2005) (http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=301): Sixth Place
Louisville: (10 September 2005) (http://www.bluegrassmagic.com/decks.htm): First Place
Dortmund: (20 August 2005) (http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=284): Second Place
Fairfax (14 August 2005) (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=12992): Eighth Place (Blue/Green/Red)
Bremen (04 August 2005) (http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=281): First Place
Syracuse (Big Arse II, 17 July 2005) (http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=281): First Place
Aurich (25 June 2005) (http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=272): Fourth Place
Vancouver, BC (early summer 2005) (http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=462510#462510): First Place

Appendix III: The (original) "Super Gro" Thread in the Open Forum (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2623)

Appendix IV: Further Reading

Building a Legacy - GP: Philadelphia *Top 8* [with Threshold/Gro] (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10865.html) by Ben Goodman (aka Ridiculous Hat)
Legacy Gro: A Tournament Report (http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=462510#462510) (by Paul Burke aka TheAntar)
The Evolution of Miracle Gro (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=sideboard/strategy/sb20020124b) (by Alex Shvartsman)
Learning From the Flaws Of Aggro Decks in Vintage – A Look At Bird Shit (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9419.html) (by Josh Silvestri aka Artowis aka Vegeta)
UB Trippin' (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mf38) (by Mike Flores)
The Lands that Almost Weren't (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/rb65) (Randy Buehler)



Edited By bardo_trout on 1134278796

Machinus
11-23-2005, 03:48 PM
I've thought for some time now that UGW deserved Tier-1 status. I look forward to finally seeing people adopt and play this deck.

Vimes
11-23-2005, 04:24 PM
Damn, now I have to test against a deck that actually scares me. :(

Is Gro-a-Tog a deck that could be discussed in this thread? It's a little unclear for me as a GAT thread still exists in the Open forum, but the UGb Gro list doesn't use Dr. Teeth.

Is the Goblins- UGW Gro matchup favorable assuming both players play perfectly? I've wondered for a long time about this, and all I need to hear is yes as long as no mistakes are made and my ego will take over from there. :)

Bardo
11-23-2005, 04:37 PM
(Vimes) Is Gro-a-Tog a deck that could be discussed in this thread? It's a little unclear for me as a GAT thread still exists in the Open forum, but the UGb Gro list doesn't use Dr. Teeth.
I don't think so. The power of Tog pulls the deck in a different direction, and it certainly makes it play differently. Personally, I would keep discussion of Tog-based strategies to another thread.


Is the Goblins- UGW Gro matchup favorable assuming both players play perfectly? I've wondered for a long time about this, and all I need to hear is yes as long as no mistakes are made and my ego will take over from there. :)
It depends on the build. The ones with Mongeese certainly have an easier time than those without, but I think Goblins is generally better overall, even though you'll occasionaly smash it to bits with Threshold and wonder what the big deal is all about.

In my experience, Goblins is slightly favored in game 1; but the match is about even (or even slightly in Threshold's favor) in games 2-3.



Edited By bardo_trout on 1132778291

Lukas Preuss
11-23-2005, 05:01 PM
I just wanted to tell you that this was one hell of a summary of the deck. You did a very fine job! :)
Oh, and thanks for putting those German T8 results into your posting... it's nice to see that our German results from over the ocean spark some interest... :D

Vimes
11-23-2005, 07:45 PM
(Vimes) Is Gro-a-Tog a deck that could be discussed in this thread? It's a little unclear for me as a GAT thread still exists in the Open forum, but the UGb Gro list doesn't use Dr. Teeth.
I don't think so. The power of Tog pulls the deck in a different direction, and it certainly makes it play differently. Personally, I would keep discussion of Tog-based strategies to another thread.


Is the Goblins- UGW Gro matchup favorable assuming both players play perfectly? I've wondered for a long time about this, and all I need to hear is yes as long as no mistakes are made and my ego will take over from there. :)
It depends on the build. The ones with Mongeese certainly have an easier time than those without, but I think Goblins is generally better overall, even though you'll occasionaly smash it to bits with Threshold and wonder what the big deal is all about.

In my experience, Goblins is slightly favored in game 1; but the match is about even (or even slightly in Threshold's favor) in games 2-3.
So, why should we play a deck that doesn't beat the most played and only real aggro deck? Not a rhetorical question.

bigredmeanie
11-23-2005, 08:54 PM
So, why should we play a deck that doesn't beat the most played and only real aggro deck? Not a rhetorical question.

The deck can and does beat goblins. Bardo did not say that it cannot beat goblins. In fact he said


the match is about even (or even slightly in Threshold's favor)

I will admit game 1 is rough, but not impossible, but it gets tremendously easier game 2 and 3.

Learn to read.

Also to answer your non rhetorical question, this deck has a favorable matchup against just about everything. That was clearly shown when 3 lists made top 8 at Philly.

hope that helps.

p.s. I knew I should have played Gro in Philly.

overlord95
11-23-2005, 09:59 PM
IV. BLUE/BLACK/GREEN
The power of Psychatog and Life from the Loam pulls us strongly toward Loam/Dredge Tog (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=808), but Scott Scheurer (overlord95) has been playing a UGb version of Gro for quite some time now to respectable success. Most recently he made day 2 at GP: Philadelphia with a 7-1 record.

Ghastly Demise replaces Swords to Plowshares as the targetted removal of choice and Night's Whispers is supplements the already robust draw engine of the deck. Splashing Black you also gives us powerful sideboard options: Duress for combo and control and Engineered Plague for Goblins and other tribal strategies.

Blue/Green/Black ********/Gro
by Scott Scheuer

4 Werebear
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Possessed Aven

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Night's Whisper

4 Ghastly Demise
3 Engineered Explosives

4 Force Of Will
3 Daze
2 Stifle
1 Counterspell

4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Swamp

sb 2 Benthic Djinn
sb 4 Engineered Plague
sb 3 Blue Elemental Blast
sb 3 Naturalize
sb 3 Duress
I would like to point out that my list actually plays 3 stilfes and 2 flooded strands. Also I switched the Djinns for Phyrexian furnaces. But dont get me wrong the Djinns are most definitly amazing. But I wasnt expecting to play alot of the mirror (all denominations of grow) or landstill at the GP.

Bardo
11-23-2005, 10:07 PM
So, why should we play a deck that doesn't beat the most played and only real aggro deck? Not a rhetorical question.
At the GP, about 25% of the players played Goblins, that's more than 100 goblin decks. That's a whole lot of fucking Goblins. But of more than 100 Goblin decks, only 2 made top 8 (and one won the whole thing at the hands of a pro). On the other hand, not more than a dozen people played threshold and 3 of those players made top 8. So, to answer your question (why play threshold): because it's really freaking good.

And I didn't say Threshold doesn't win against Goblins. Ridiculous Hat, for instance went 3-1 against the deck at the GP. I said Gobbos has a slight advantage in Game 1; but it's at least even or in Thresh's favor for games 2-3. And apart from the Goblin match, it's a very good deck against so many other things.

edit - @overlord - I updated your list in the original post.



Edited By bardo_trout on 1132813786

overlord95
11-23-2005, 10:34 PM
So, why should we play a deck that doesn't beat the most played and only real aggro deck? Not a rhetorical question.
Think about it. At the GP, about 25% of the players took Goblins, that's more than 100 goblin decks. Of more than 100, 2 made top 8 and one won the whole thing at the hands of a pro. On the other hand, probably not more than a dozen people played threshold and 3 of those players made top 8. To answer your question (why play threshold): because it's freaking good.

And I didn't say Threshold doesn't win against Goblins. Ridiculous Hat, for instance went 3-1 against the deck at the GP.
I also went 3-1 against goblins at the GP. The only goblins player I loss to was Tom Smart(the guy who made top 8). I would have been 4-0 but I didn't draw a basic land. So im going to chuck that one up to bad luck.

Mulletus
11-24-2005, 11:14 AM
What does this deck do against RGSA? I payed 3 NQG decks at Philly and never even lost a game to them. One was at table 5 in round 6, against overlord95. This consisted of me just casting creatures, and attacking. Then finally getting a Tsunami off for about 6 lands. Then during day two, I played Obfiscate freely. This was somewhat comical because I never got Survival down. I actuallt did the majority of my beating with a hard cast Anger, that he couldn't counter or kill or risk the hand full of creatures I had have haste. It might have just been me, but these weren't even much of games for me.

t3h.sWaRm
11-24-2005, 01:52 PM
There's a lot of 3c Thresh inmy environment. Which build do you guys think would have the biggest advantage in the mirror? Of course they are different decks and one may be favored versus another and not favored against the other kind. So what I'm asking is for like a breakdown or the mirror matches. Right now I'm thinking that:
UWG(creatures won't die to reds removal) > URG =(?) UBG >(?) UWG

Of course I'm notwhere near sure of this. What do you guys think?

bigredmeanie
11-24-2005, 02:00 PM
@t3h.swarm I would say that the UGW version would have a better mirror match. The reason being is because Enforcer has pro black, and is just bigger than Fledging Draon. Also swords and Meddling Mage is really good against those decks.

t3h.sWaRm
11-24-2005, 03:39 PM
Ahh...I forgot about the por black ability. Makes the UBG matchup much better since if you get one out its pretty much game. Do you guys have any advice on what to call with Mage vs the URG version? Or does it not matter much since they'll kill it anyway.

Vimes
11-24-2005, 05:39 PM
@t3h.swarm I would say that the UGW version would have a better mirror match. The reason being is because Enforcer has pro black, and is just bigger than Fledging Draon. Also swords and Meddling Mage is really good against those decks.
Generally, the red Gro player will have pump mana for the Dragon, but the other points are still very valid.

@t3h.swarm: Name burn. That will strand the opponent with dead cards in your hand, and if they only run 4x of a single burn like they should, the next mages are free to name Werebear, as their Mongeese outclass your Mages, but your 'Bears are bigger than the Mongeese. After that, name whatever big flier they run; Fledgling Dragon usually.

Happy Gilmore
11-24-2005, 07:04 PM
For anyone who wants to pick up this deck and start playing it I would also strongly advise reading Mike Flores' article: who's the beatdown. Grow (or threshold if you will) is one of the most unforgiving decks in Legacy. Mistakes aren't neccessarily related to bad play but to making the wrong judgment based on the situation. Another thing to think about is which cantip to play when. Don't kid yourself, its much more complicated than you would think.

On a side note,
Take advantage of the fact that there are three viable variants, all of which have different strengths and weaknesses. If you have the cards metagaming becomes loads of fun. The number of cards available to the architype is quite staggering.

Aj3j3
11-24-2005, 10:19 PM
I'm testing a sort of ******** but with a different approach.
If NotQuiteGro works..why NotQuiteThreshold shouldn't work? [glare]
I'm going to explain myself.

Green offers Werebears. And Enforcers if playing with W.
Nothing else.

Why not switching Green with a better color but maintening the same approach to the game, putting in the deck "intelligent" creatures instead of beasts? :D

I love Dark Confidant and I think it could work in an aggro-control deck packing Blue and counterspells.
Black also offers EngPlague in SB and other great removals and discard effects.

So here it is what I'm testing:

NotQuiteThreshold V1.0
---------------------------
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
--------------------------
17

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visons
4 Predict
3 Sensei's Divining Top
--------------------------
15

4 StP
3 Pithing Needle
--------------------------
7

4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
2 Psychatog
2 Exalted Angel
--------------------------
12

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
---------------------------
9

SB Under Construction:
? Engineered Plague
? Ghastly Demise
? HydroBlast
? Seal of Cleansing
? Winter Orb/Armageddon
? Duress/Cabal Theraphy
? DarkBlast

After many matches I can say that Confidant is amazing with Visions,Brainstorm and Divining Top..
And there's the possibility to regain life with angel, important even if angel is quite slow in its actions.

Other interesting creatures are:
Stormscape Apprentice, good in an environment full of aggro decks;
Kira, Great Glass Spinner..huge in matches against ********, and controls but even against goblins.

I'm really interested in your opinions and suggestions!

bigredmeanie
11-24-2005, 11:27 PM
@ AJ your list looks ok. It seems like exalted angel doesnt need to be there. Though angel is good, she is way outside of the curve. Also drawing one off of confidant is harsh. I think if you are going ot cut green you need something to fill that efficient beater role.

Sea Drake fits that role nicely.

Also I think you will find that Top is very mana intensive. It's a nice card and combos well with confidant and predict, but your deck only runs 17 lands. Hardly enough to support Top and something like Exalted Angel. I would add at least 2 more lands to your deck. Removing the Angels is where you could fit them.

t3h.sWaRm
11-24-2005, 11:52 PM
Can somebody explain to me the 1x Disrupting Shoal in the decks posted in the main post?

About the NQThresh, 4x Tog seems like it would be great in the deck as it gets huge with the cantrips and you don't need your graveyard for threshhold anymore.

Bardo
11-25-2005, 01:09 AM
Wow, lots of stuff here. :)

re: the mirror. UWG > URG because URG needs multiple cards to take down any of UWG threats, other than Meddling Mage who can chant against burn anyhow. As efficient as Lightning Bolt is, it's not better than StP.


(Happy Gilmore) For anyone who wants to pick up this deck and start playing it I would also strongly advise reading Mike Flores' article: who's the beatdown. Grow (or threshold if you will) is one of the most unforgiving decks in Legacy.
Quite true. A lot of players will pick up this deck and think it sucks because they're playing it wrong, but they don't realize it. It is quite unforgiving, and if you're playing the wrong role, you're going to lose.

@Aj3j3 - If you're going with Black, you really ought to try Darkblast; Dredge is an extremely efficient threshold builder. But looking at your deck again, it doesn't really belong in this thread. Anything called "NotQuiteThreshold" that doesn't even run any threshold creatures doesn't have a place in a threshold thread. And those two-of Angel/Togs look really random...


Can somebody explain to me the 1x Disrupting Shoal in the decks posted in the main post?
:) It started out as anti-Goblin tech: Force of Will #5 for a turn-1 Lackey/Vial. But it's proven its usefulness in other matches, countering a turn-2 Survival when you're on the draw, etc. At a certain point you can just hard cast it. But it's job is to protect Thresh/Gro when it's most vulnerable, the first couple of turn, or when you're tapped out after having played an early threat. Try it.



Edited By bardo_trout on 1132895546

t3h.sWaRm
11-25-2005, 09:06 AM
Okay I was playing the deck to get a feel for it and I've got more questions :D . What's are the best spells to throw to FoW? Here's a rough order of what I went by in my few practice games:

Another Fow -> Daze -> Counterspell -> Predict -> Sleight of Hand -> Serum Visions -> Brainstorm -> Meddling Mage

How does that look? Is it better to toss another counter with the FoW over some cantrips(I also realize it can be dependant on the status of the game, but generally)? Help would be definately appreciated.

About the Shoal, I guess it could work. I didn't read your post until now so it wasn't in the deck I played with yesterday and didn't get to try it. I'll try and get some games with it in today(and also read that article)

CavernNinja
11-25-2005, 11:11 AM
What to pitch to FoW REALLY depends upon the situation of the game. If you are forcing through a threat then pitching a threat might not be a terrible idea. If you have 7 cards in hand and are about to win the game with what you have then getting rid of draw is never a bad idea. If you're playing combo then I would never pitch a Daze or Counterspell. You need to evaluate the situation and decide which card is the weakest during the match and under current game-state.

Ridiculous Hat
11-25-2005, 11:43 PM
What does this deck do against RGSA? I payed 3 NQG decks at Philly and never even lost a game to them. One was at table 5 in round 6, against overlord95. This consisted of me just casting creatures, and attacking. Then finally getting a Tsunami off for about 6 lands. Then during day two, I played Obfiscate freely. This was somewhat comical because I never got Survival down. I actuallt did the majority of my beating with a hard cast Anger, that he couldn't counter or kill or risk the hand full of creatures I had have haste. It might have just been me, but these weren't even much of games for me.
I have never once had trouble with rgsa, but my testing against it is rather limited. Pithing Needle is very good in that particular match-- though I would probably not exactly be expecting tsunami. I will say that not killing anger seems like a bad idea, as hasty creatures aren't THAT relevant-- if large amounts of big guys hit the table, the game is going to be over anyways.

Mulletus
11-26-2005, 03:10 AM
Well I did leave one mana open when casting stuff I wanted to keep. That way I avoid getting dazed. I think all three opponents got pithing needle down naming survival, but I rarely get survival anyway. tsunami is actually my last chioce. I prefer to get geae's blessing to put your damaging land back and cantrip, or land grant to get ahead, or the ruination cuz you have only a couple basics if any, or meltdown to be able to use survivial again, then the tsunami cuz blue is evil. The longest match was against a tog-grow player who knew enought to name FTK mith the medling mage. That was technicaly the 4th gro deck I beat, but he had tog, and the dryad. It was a day two matchup. He learned to respect the power of turn one orcish lumberjack. That and spore frog swings with haste.

TorakTwoEye
11-26-2005, 01:30 PM
Here's a though for the U/g/b version of this deck. Since you're only running 3 cards that cost UU, all of them replacable, wouldn't it make sense to drop the lone counterspell and maybe one drawspell(or something like that) and add a few copy's of Hymn to Tourach? I know that it doesn't add anything to the deck's synergy or anything but dang Hymn is sooooo strong that I think that the inclusion of a few copies would strenthgen the deck overall.

Happy Gilmore
11-26-2005, 01:54 PM
I think you would be amazed at how big a difference it is to only have 4 hard counters. No to mention the fact that Hymn is 1. a sorcery 2. has a double black CC and 3. stricly worse than duress in its versatiliy and speed.

cgooch
11-26-2005, 06:57 PM
After reading this primer (which is very good I must add), playtesting the deck, and delineating Ridiculous Hat's arguments in the old Super-Gro thread, I've come to the conclusion, much like he did, that Portent and Accumulated Knowledge are weak while maindeck Sleight of Hand is strong. But on the other hand, I've found Predict to also be pretty bad. While the opportunity to draw 2 cards exists, I've tested and loved Mental Note in that slot. Just like Predict, it draws and achieves Threshold. In my opinion, and I may be in the minority here, Mental Note is overall a better choice for the deck.

Zilla
11-26-2005, 07:05 PM
In my opinion, and I may be in the minority here, Mental Note is overall a better choice for the deck.
I agree completely, but I've been testing mainly with the red version, which is inherently more aggressive, so my opinion ont he matter may be skewed.

cgooch
11-26-2005, 07:23 PM
Well, the two decks shouldn't be too different. In essence, Predict is usually an Accumulated Knowledge with no more in the graveyard. Even worse, the more times you play it, it still doesn't get better. The only problem as I see it is that in my build there are simply too many 1CC draw spells with the addition of Mental Note. So, Sleight of Hand (the generally recognized worst 1CC draw spell) could go out in favor of Accumlated Knowledge. The only problem there is that I don't like AK. Looks like I need to do some more testing...

Ridiculous Hat
11-26-2005, 07:58 PM
Well, the two decks shouldn't be too different. In essence, Predict is usually an Accumulated Knowledge with no more in the graveyard. Even worse, the more times you play it, it still doesn't get better. The only problem as I see it is that in my build there are simply too many 1CC draw spells with the addition of Mental Note. So, Sleight of Hand (the generally recognized worst 1CC draw spell) could go out in favor of Accumlated Knowledge. The only problem there is that I don't like AK. *Sigh* Looks like I need to do some more testing... ^_^
AK I have very rarely been happy with-- but I can see your arguments on Mental Note, and a lot of times I agree with you. However, there are a few reasons that I have predict instead.

A) Milling two cards can sometimes hit answers that you need. Gro typically "cheats" on creature and spell counts and sometimes you can mill away the answers you really need. I know that Predict suffers from this sometimes too, but the chance is lower. Typically this isn't a concern but sometimes late-game you'll be looking for an enforcer and then one will hit the bin-- or similar circumstances.
B) Predict is really powerful in the control matchups when you have a little more time to set up. It's not too hard to hold on to a serum visions or a brainstorm there and at that point Predict becomes actual card advantage and is quite awesome..
C) Predict is really good against decks with enlightened or mystical tutors.

I think it deserves a place in the UGw version. The UGr version is significantly more aggressive and I think Mental Note is correct there.

Vimes
11-27-2005, 04:58 PM
I'm fairly certain that milling yourself doesn't increase the chances of not drawing a certain card. Yes, you can end up milling the card you want, but it can also mill away chaff so you can get to that card in time.

For example, let's say you have one Mystic Enforcer left in your library and you cast Mental Note. Is the Enforcer any more likely to be on top of your library than three cards from the top?

Ridiculous Hat
11-27-2005, 05:17 PM
I'm fairly certain that milling yourself doesn't increase the chances of not drawing a certain card. Yes, you can end up milling the card you want, but it can also mill away chaff so you can get to that card in time.

For example, let's say you have one Mystic Enforcer left in your library and you cast Mental Note. Is the Enforcer any more likely to be on top of your library than three cards from the top?
It's not any more likely, but I'm just saying that because Gro plays smaller numbers of specialized cards-- only 4 swords for creature removal, only 3 enforcer for evading beats, etc-- the chance of milling them away might be more relevant than the chance of getting to them faster. You are correct that the random chance is the same, but there are two outcomes possible and I'm not sure they have the same weight. I haven't tested Mental Note enough, to be sure, so if anyone who is still actively testing the format wishes to try out Note and post in this thread about it, I'd love to hear how it performs. I know the UGr deck likes it a lot and I'd be very open to the idea of playing it here. I just think UGw is a lot less about redundancy plus beatings and a lot more about answers plus beatings than the UGr build.

Mad Zur
11-27-2005, 05:30 PM
I agree completely, but I've been testing mainly with the red version, which is inherently mroe aggressive,

The UGr version is significantly more aggressive
What exactly are you guys talking about?



Edited By Mad Zur on 1133127086

Ridiculous Hat
11-27-2005, 06:32 PM
I agree completely, but I've been testing mainly with the red version, which is inherently mroe aggressive,

The UGr version is significantly more aggressive
What exactly are you guys talking about?
Burn spells and what seems to me like a slightly worse late-game, especially against larger threats. Please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like UGr's plan is about getting beats in earlier than UGw.

dsg123456789
11-27-2005, 07:17 PM
I've been playing UGr Gro for quite a while, and while you are being aggressive, generally you just lay a single threat and keep swinging. I have never had a problem getting turn 4 threshold and having mana open for counters/burn whenever nessecary, or turn 3 threshold if I reduce my options.

UGr Gro has a fantastic lategame, especially against decks that pack either low numbers of threats or low amounts of powerful removal, like StP or Counterspell, because I have burned many opponents out from 8-12 life or won a game in one or two swings with the Fledgling Dragon. Swinging with a 9-power flyer is how I have won many goblin matches, after slowing the game to a crawl and bogging the ground up with Mongeese and Werebears.

I think that Predict and Strategic Planning should be in UGr Gro, because those two cards enable fast threshold while giving you extremely good card quality/quantity. Also, Magma Jet should be run as a 4-of in every single UGr Gro deck, because it is quality burn that greatly increases the quality of your topdecks and doubles as a half-cantrip (in setting up future draws), not to mention the fact that it sets up Predict wonderfully. I often cast Draw2 Predicts against Goblins and other decks because of the Jet, since I can set up my library at their EOT and Predict again at their next EOT, while still having enough mana open and available for burn and counters.

Obfuscate Freely
11-27-2005, 08:25 PM
The build of UGr Gro that Zur and I play is the same as a UGw deck, but with better removal and better threats. The strategy remains the same.


Burn spells and what seems to me like a slightly worse late-game, especially against larger threats. Please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like UGr's plan is about getting beats in earlier than UGw.
While it's true that Swords is better than Bolt against fatties, ...those don't exist in Legacy.

You're wrong about UGr's plan being any different than UGw's. Burn may give the deck a bit of extra speed, but that doesn't come at any sort of cost to the lategame. Why would you assume that?

Now, although atypical, a UGr list like Sarcasto's actually has more answers than UGw even has access to. His list has 8 hard counters (plus 4 Dazes) and 8 spot removal spells. How can his deck not be "about answers plus beatings"?

Hat, I'm disappointed to see you making assertions about the red build when it sounds like you still haven't tested it. If you haven't already, you really should give it a shot.

Ridiculous Hat
11-27-2005, 09:04 PM
The build of UGr Gro that Zur and I play is the same as a UGw deck, but with better removal and better threats. The strategy remains the same.


Burn spells and what seems to me like a slightly worse late-game, especially against larger threats. Please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like UGr's plan is about getting beats in earlier than UGw.
While it's true that Swords is better than Bolt against fatties, ...those don't exist in Legacy.

You're wrong about UGr's plan being any different than UGw's. Burn may give the deck a bit of extra speed, but that doesn't come at any sort of cost to the lategame. Why would you assume that?

Now, although atypical, a UGr list like Sarcasto's actually has more answers than UGw even has access to. His list has 8 hard counters (plus 4 Dazes) and 8 spot removal spells. How can his deck not be "about answers plus beatings"?

Hat, I'm disappointed to see you making assertions about the red build when it sounds like you still haven't tested it. If you haven't already, you really should give it a shot.
Fat does somewhat exist in the mirrors and against Reanimator, but I will admit to not really testing the UGr build that much. My assumptions were based on the list having 0 spells that draw more than one card and 0 cards that answer more than one card (except for pyroclasms in the side and fire/ice on two 1/1s). It doesn't have any cards like Meddling Mage, Pithing Needle, or even Predict to nullify multiple cards at once or get actual card advantage. It seems like a significantly more aggressive strategy, and while you still have counters, the deck seems somewhat less versatile to me. Again, I haven't tested very much as I am no longer actively playing this format-- I'm just going on what I've seen and what I know about the UGw build and other decks that I've played in the past. It seems like UGr is much more of a metagame build as well, more prepared for the decks that are well-known but with less of the "universal" answer cards that the white build has access to and/or plays. Am I wrong? I trust you to correct me.

Bargoth
11-28-2005, 02:02 AM
If anything I would think that the version with Red is able to generate better card advantage than the version with Blue. Fire/Ice obviously does so vs. Weenie strategies, and with Goblins making up well over a third of most large scale competitions, it seems like a safe bet that Fire/Ice will remain an incredibly strong choice.

Additionally, it seems like Predict is even stronger in the UGr build. Since in addition to the the normal Brainstorm and Serum Visions, you gaim Magma Jet (as dsg123456789 pointed out). It seems like having 12 cards to set up the Predict engine would greatly increase it's productivity as a card advantage machine.

In the UGr build you do sacrafice Meddling Mage. Meddling Mage certianly can be powerful I wouldnt try to argue against that and can provide a form of card advantage by locking cards in hand. But given such a Goblin heavy meta-game the Red route seems like the stronger choice.

I think if anything the Burn is stronger in the late game than Swords is, and thus the UGr version has a stronger late game than the UGw version. There is really next to no fat in this format. The only card that comes to mind is DSC that The Game sometimes uses. Swords obviously could be some help vs big guys, but it sets you back in the damage race, where as extra burn can push you ahead if your in control. Fire/Ice has the added bonus of being able to buy a turn against huge fat as well that helps to make up for the fact that the UGr version falls short in permanent answers to large creatures.

Overall I would be inclined to say the Red version is the stronger of the two given the position that the meta-game is in right now.

Mulletus
11-28-2005, 05:52 AM
Ok I wont lie, the deck is great, but what does this deck do against 32 creatures maindeck. Most with trix to boot? 4/4 for 2 isn't that hot against ftk. It handles the main 2 decks in the format, but how does it do against us randoms. Even Geddon is tollerable.?.?.?

Ridiculous Hat
11-28-2005, 10:03 AM
If anything I would think that the version with Red is able to generate better card advantage than the version with Blue. Fire/Ice obviously does so vs. Weenie strategies, and with Goblins making up well over a third of most large scale competitions, it seems like a safe bet that Fire/Ice will remain an incredibly strong choice.

Additionally, it seems like Predict is even stronger in the UGr build. Since in addition to the the normal Brainstorm and Serum Visions, you gaim Magma Jet (as dsg123456789 pointed out). It seems like having 12 cards to set up the Predict engine would greatly increase it's productivity as a card advantage machine.

In the UGr build you do sacrafice Meddling Mage. Meddling Mage certianly can be powerful I wouldnt try to argue against that and can provide a form of card advantage by locking cards in hand. But given such a Goblin heavy meta-game the Red route seems like the stronger choice.

I think if anything the Burn is stronger in the late game than Swords is, and thus the UGr version has a stronger late game than the UGw version. There is really next to no fat in this format. The only card that comes to mind is DSC that The Game sometimes uses. Swords obviously could be some help vs big guys, but it sets you back in the damage race, where as extra burn can push you ahead if your in control. Fire/Ice has the added bonus of being able to buy a turn against huge fat as well that helps to make up for the fact that the UGr version falls short in permanent answers to large creatures.

Overall I would be inclined to say the Red version is the stronger of the two given the position that the meta-game is in right now.
Well, Sarcasto played 0 predicts. That's the list I was going by.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying UGr is bad or that Fire/Ice isn't a good card. It just simply doesn't play any card advantage that isn't Fire/Ice in the maindeck.

As for the no fat in this format, well, in looking at the top 8 I think we might start to see more fat thanks to this deck. It was the most popular archetype in the t8 and 0 of the burn spells in the deck can kill any creature in any gro deck except for Meddling Mage. Swords may start to become more important.

And yes, I agree that UGr is a more accurate metagame deck. But this format does not have a well-defined metagame, and UGw is more than capable of beating goblins. As I said, I think UGw is better against the unexpected.

Obfuscate Freely
11-28-2005, 10:33 AM
As I said before, Sarcasto's list is atypical, as it strays from the classic Gro card counts. His success at the GP certainly gives us reason to discuss and explore the deck, but as of now I don't see it as representative of UGr Gro.

UGr Gro is a deck almost identical to your list, but with the appropriate card swaps made for color.

-4 STP
-4 Mage
-2 Enforcer

+4 Bolt/Fire Ice/Magma Jet
+4 Mongoose
+2 Fledgling Dragon/Sea Drake

It's the same deck, with differences only in how the specific card swaps interact with the metagame.

Ridiculous Hat
11-28-2005, 12:12 PM
As I said before, Sarcasto's list is atypical, as it strays from the classic Gro card counts. His success at the GP certainly gives us reason to discuss and explore the deck, but as of now I don't see it as representative of UGr Gro.

UGr Gro is a deck almost identical to your list, but with the appropriate card swaps made for color.

-4 STP
-4 Mage
-2 Enforcer

+4 Bolt/Fire Ice/Magma Jet
+4 Mongoose
+2 Fledgling Dragon/Sea Drake

It's the same deck, with differences only in how the specific card swaps interact with the metagame.
Okay, I did not see your posts detailing that and I apologize for the assumptions-- I was going by Sarcasto's list, which seems more aggressive than UGw. Those card swaps you mention make a lot of sense-- I will freely admit that UGr is a better deck for a defined metagame as it stands now. I just like UGw a lot and I think it's more versatile, and the metagame is not exactly defined anywhere. We have thoughts on what the metagame should be, and for sure goblins will see lots of play, but other than that the expected decks at a large-scale event could be anything. We have something to go by thanks to GP Philly, but nothing is really solidified yet.

dsg123456789
11-28-2005, 03:02 PM
In addition to the modifications that Ob Freely stated that convert UGw to UGr Gro, I would also suggest dropping Sleight of Hand (plus another card) for Magma Jet. Jet functions as a weak cantrip at times, much like Sleight does, but Jet is much stronger because it can be removal and it sets up Predict.

I myself run 2 Strategic Planning and 3 Pithing Needle in my UGr Gro maindeck. Strategic Planning has proven to be nothing short of amazing. It allows me to get threshold extremely quickly, providing 3 cards to my graveyard, and it is strong in the lategame too, allowing me to dig for answers. It is like Mental Note, but it lets you choose which cards to keep and which card goes to the graveyard (like Mental Note+Sensei's Divining Top). I think that Strategic Planning merits maindeck slots due to its early game threshold enabling and lategame card selection.

Is Strategic Planning worthy of maindeck slots in Gro? If so, how many?

overlord95
11-28-2005, 03:55 PM
I think that Strategic Planning merits maindeck slots due to its early game threshold enabling and lategame card selection.

Is Strategic Planning worthy of maindeck slots in Gro? If so, how many?
I believe that the same argument against Mental Note can be used here just in the fact that you have to few answer to an array of problems that have to be dealt with. The odds of you coming across a scenario in which you hit 2-3 crucile cards are low but those odds are still enough IMO to dennouce it as a main deck slot.

Edit: In UBG grow how good would Nightmare Void be in the wombat match up be??? ob freely and I were thinking of something like 2 intuition, 1 NV, and 1 genesis in the board. Thoughts?

Bardo
11-28-2005, 05:09 PM
I'm happy to see this thread's taken off! :)

There's a lot to talk about, so I'll weigh in with some of my ideas.

RE: URG vs UWG. Strategically, I'd much rather play the UWG list, especially if the new Loam/Dredge Tog lists start taking off. I've pretty much been playing Tog exclusively for the past month and it's really freaking good. URG will stuggle and will likely lose the battle of attrition. Tog couldn't give a wank about Lightning Bolt/Magma Jet, etc. and the only thing that flies in URG is Fledgling Dragon, which will chump for a turn. UWG is already pre-boarded with as many StP as Tog has Togs, 3 Mystic Enforcers (aka Tog-busting-extraordinaire), Meddling Mage for Intuition/LFL, Pithing Needle for Sandbar/Deed/Tog. URG really has to fight an uphill battle there. But URG is better against Goblins, for reasons that are too obvious to mention, so that's a reason alone to consider running it.

RE: Predict vs AK vs Mental Note. My disdain for Predict is pretty well known (though maybe not here). I like the effect, but it's really twice the cost you want to pay. AK and Strategic Planning suffer the same problem. Solid cards, but slow and overcost. That's pretty much the only reason to run Mental Note: it's synergistic and cheap. And that's what the deck is looking for. I always side AKs out anyway against aggro, but I'm not certain that I wouldn't side out Mental Note either, you really want to leave the core of the deck intact and I don't think Mental Note is better than Brainstorm, and it's not as good as Serum Visions because scrying for lands when you're up against Wasteland keeps the deck floating.

I've had AK in my lists forever now and used to run 1-2 Merchant Scroll/Mystic Tutor to dig up AK3/4, but this was back when decks weren't as optimized, and I could run subpar cards myself and still not notice that they were actually bad. :)

I'm a fan of Sleight of Hand, but Mental Note likely trumps that, so those are easy test-slots to fill.

Statistically, you can't worry about "dreding" good cards with Mental Note. You may just as easily "dredge" two unnecessary lands as StP + Meddling Mage. Experiment with cutting the deck at different places, and you'll see that the argument holds not water.


(Mulletus) Ok I wont lie, the deck is great, but what does this deck do against 32 creatures maindeck. Most with trix to boot? 4/4 for 2 isn't that hot against ftk. It handles the main 2 decks in the format, but how does it do against us randoms. Even Geddon is tollerable.
Well, you never have to deal with 32 creatures, only the ones that resolve, and then, only the ones that matter. Werebear does make excellent target practice for FTK, and then you have a 4/2 to deal with. He always needs to be countered -- but he's easily Daze-able. Though, if you're talking about Goblins, it's not pretty. Tivadar's Crusade is often your best bet since you can solve multiple problems for 1WW and a card. Of course you need to manage your mana carefully by exposing your non-basics. A safe bet is to fetch a basic island turn 1 (which is one of the few auto-plays this deck has), getting your Plains with Strand/Heath on turn two (now you have non-Wastelandable access to your 4 StP + 4 BEB/Hydroblast), and cracking another fetch/playing Tundra (which any fetch can find) on turn 3. And even if your Tundra bites it, it's still done it's job. And if you can hold out to turn four before you Crusade, by leaving one or more fetchland uncracked, all the better.

Or, you know, play URG and cast Pyroclasm for a mere 1R. ;)


(dsg)Is Strategic Planning worthy of maindeck slots in Gro? If so, how many?
I'm testing one. I sometimes like it, but it again suffers from the Predict/AK problem: it costs two mana, and this one is a sorcery, so you can't even counterspell/stifle/etc. Hence, I'll often sit on it if I have other reactive cards in my hand, and that's not satisfying. Like Pox in Pox (deck), Threshold should be cantripping early and often. And sorcery + 1U really slows your momentum if you have other things to do.

Onto new news:

From this past weekend (source Morphling.de) (http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=313). (Thanks Kimberly!)
Man, there's some crazy fucking decks in there. :)

First Place: UWG Threshold (5-0) (17 players)

4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
2 Disrupting Shoal
4 Force of Will
4 Portent
3 Predict
2 Stifle
3 Meddling Mage
3 Mystic Enforcer
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Werebear
4 Swords to Plowshares

Lands (17):
2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
3 Island
1 Plains
3 Tropical Island

Sideboard (15):
3 Armageddon
4 Hydroblast
1 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle
2 Stifle
1 Tivadar's Crusade
1 Tormod's Crypt

Notable cards: AK, 2 D Shoal, Portent + Predict, maindeck Mongeese. Nothing wonky in the sideboard. Pretty much Lam's list from the GP.

Seventh place: URG Threshold (2-2-1)

2 Phyrexian Furnace
1 Pithing Needle
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Portent
3 Predict
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Fire/Ice
2 Fledgling Dragon
4 Lightning Bolt

Lands (18):
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard (15):
3 Hydroblast
3 Naturalize
2 Null Rod
4 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Sandstorm
1 Tromod's Crypt
3 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath

Just thought I'd share. This is a good discussion. :)

Cheers,
Bardo



Edited By bardo_trout on 1133213933

Ridiculous Hat
11-28-2005, 05:53 PM
Statistically, you can't worry about "dreding" good cards with Mental Note. You may just as easily "dredge" two unnecessary lands as StP + Meddling Mage. Experiment with cutting the deck at different places, and you'll see that the argument holds not water.
Again, just to remark-- I'm not saying that it's more likely that you'll mill something that you'll care about. I'm saying that milling in general is undesirable because if you hit something that you do care about, it's more important for the deck than if you hit something you don't. The consequences of a negative mill are heavier than the benefits of a positive mill because of the lower level of redundancy UGw has in terms of removal and win conditions.

LinkXwing
11-28-2005, 05:55 PM
Not being too much of a Gro player myself, I probably will not have time to test it, but Peek would seem to be a decent card AND fit into Gro's overall strategy - well worth testing time in the last cantrip slot over Mental Note/AK/Predict/other.

P.S. I appologize to anyone else who has tested this in the past and I've missed it within the hundreds of pages of reading about Gro. Good luck guys.

Obfuscate Freely
11-28-2005, 05:57 PM
I will freely admit that UGr is a better deck for a defined metagame as it stands now. I just like UGw a lot and I think it's more versatile, and the metagame is not exactly defined anywhere. We have thoughts on what the metagame should be, and for sure goblins will see lots of play, but other than that the expected decks at a large-scale event could be anything. We have something to go by thanks to GP Philly, but nothing is really solidified yet.
Despite some of the things I said, I really wasn't trying to push UGr as better than UGw. I just wanted to clear up the misconception that one was inherently strategically different from the other.

I agree with you that a more defined metagame would be necessary to determine which splash is better, if an objective conclusion is possible.


In addition to the modifications that Ob Freely stated that convert UGw to UGr Gro, I would also suggest dropping Sleight of Hand (plus another card) for Magma Jet. Jet functions as a weak cantrip at times, much like Sleight does, but Jet is much stronger because it can be removal and it sets up Predict.

I myself run 2 Strategic Planning and 3 Pithing Needle in my UGr Gro maindeck. Strategic Planning has proven to be nothing short of amazing. It allows me to get threshold extremely quickly, providing 3 cards to my graveyard, and it is strong in the lategame too, allowing me to dig for answers. It is like Mental Note, but it lets you choose which cards to keep and which card goes to the graveyard (like Mental Note+Sensei's Divining Top). I think that Strategic Planning merits maindeck slots due to its early game threshold enabling and lategame card selection.

Is Strategic Planning worthy of maindeck slots in Gro? If so, how many?

When Zur and I first played UGr, we had Fire/Ice in the deck. This was back when Survival was around, and Fire was hot because it 2-for-1'd all the time. When Survival died down, Fire/Ice lost some of its luster (you never 2-for-1 Goblins with it), so we tried Magma Jet. Jet is awesome for the reasons you've mentioned; it gives you a decent set-up spell and a decent spot-removal spell at the same time.

Since then, we've both switched to Bolt, but it is possible to squeeze extra removal into the deck by masquerading it as draw. Personally, I don't think it's needed; I like the lower curve and the better draw you get with Portent (or Sleight).

As for Strategic Planning, bardo covered its problems pretty clearly. Basically, 2 mana sorceries are really cumbersome, and it's effect is worse than Impulse's anyway.

...Yeah, I know it ditches 2 cards. That isn't reason enough to run it.

If you are having difficulty reaching threshold, that is because you have run out of spells to cast. Games like that are difficult to win anyway. Mental Note is much better at giving you quick threshold, but it doesn't usually make the cut, either, because it is such a poor draw spell.


RE: Predict vs AK vs Mental Note. My disdain for Predict is pretty well known (though maybe not here). I like the effect, but it's really twice the cost you want to pay. AK and Strategic Planning suffer the same problem. Solid cards, but slow and overcost. That's pretty much the only reason to run Mental Note: it's synergistic and cheap. And that's what the deck is looking for. I always side AKs out anyway against aggro, but I'm not certain that I wouldn't side out Mental Note either, you really want to leave the core of the deck intact and I don't think Mental Note is better than Brainstorm, and it's not as good as Serum Visions because scrying for lands when you're up against Wasteland keeps the deck floating.

I never have understood your "disdain" for Predict. 1U is a perfectly fine cost to draw 2 cards (often milling through an unwanted one) at instant speed. If the card cost U it would clearly be undercosted.

I really think Gro needs some form of card advantage in its draw, however small. It helps you recover from pitch counters and mulligans. Predict is the best we have, and if you give it a try, you might be more pleased with it than you'd think. It's certainly better than Strategic Planning!

The second point you bring up, about sideboarding, should make for an interesting discussion. Against aggro decks, I often side out my "4th" draw spell (3x Portent/Sleight of Hand), and sometimes a Predict. However, I prefer leaving all the draw in whenever possible. Running out of cantrips is really the most common reason Gro loses games, in my experience.

EDIT: Peek is awful. Sheer velocity isn't enough to keep the deck moving. Gro cheats on lands, threats, and answers, and it needs more powerful manipulation to get away with it.



Edited By Obfuscate Freely on 1133215277

Joe Eigo
11-28-2005, 06:15 PM
i tested peek in nqg at a gp trial 2 weeks ago and found it to be a very useful card, if your not sure about the metagame and maindecking both mages and needle. its imo a personal choice like mental note etc.. since you usually know anyhow what to name for mage/needle and it doesnt serve a role of either putting cards in the gy or digging deeper into the deck like all other draw spells do.
on the other hand there are even many differences like in goblin builds with jitte md or other nasty things so its really no bad idea to try them out.

if you ask me, ill keep them in as long as i play needle and mage main.

Bardo
11-28-2005, 07:21 PM
(Ob Freely) I never have understood your "disdain" for Predict. 1U is a perfectly fine cost to draw 2 cards (often milling through an unwanted one) at instant speed. If the card cost U it would clearly be undercosted.

I really think Gro needs some form of card advantage in its draw, however small. It helps you recover from pitch counters and mulligans. Predict is the best we have, and if you give it a try, you might be more pleased with it than you'd think. It's certainly better than Strategic Planning!

You're not guaranteed to ever draw 2 cards off Predict. Yes, you can set it up with one of your 1cc draw spells, but that really smells of one of the "Danger of Cool Things (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/3689.html)" moves.

Anyway, if Predict said: "Draw two cards" for 1U at instant speed, it would be an immediate 4-of here, but it doesn't. It says "Draw two cards, if you invest some effort or get lucky."

But I certainly agree that the deck needs some form of card advantage, above the cantrips and library manipulation that the 1cc spells offer. That's why I continue to run AK, which I'm not terribly satisfied with. At various points, I've even run 2+ Fact or Fiction in this deck, but I don't advocate that any longer.


(LinkXwing) Not being too much of a Gro player myself, I probably will not have time to test it, but Peek would seem to be a decent card AND fit into Gro's overall strategy - well worth testing time in the last cantrip slot over Mental Note/AK/Predict/other.
Peek is really shitting at digging for land and the land search that Brainstorm/Visions/Sleight/Portent offer are one of the ways we can reasonably be running so few lands in the first place.

And there's no reason to apologize for bringing up an idea. Consider this thread tabula rasa from the meandering 17-page Super-Gro thread that was started in October 2004. And even if an idea is bad (and I'm not saying that yours is), it's good for others to debate the point, so that lurkers will understand the argument and be enlightened. :)

Bardo,
doin' it for the lurkers...



Edited By bardo_trout on 1133222566

Obfuscate Freely
11-28-2005, 08:30 PM
We aren't guaranteed anything in this life. But I'll take my chances with Predict nonetheless. Try it before you knock it.

Bryant Cook
11-28-2005, 09:27 PM
We aren't guaranteed anything in this life. But I'll take my chances with Predict nonetheless. Try it before you knock it.
I've been testing U/G/r gro the last few days, and I don't see why anyone would not run predict. I don't see the card as a 4 of, but it cantrips no matter what not to mention it fills the yard early game to make that bear a 4/4 turns 3-4. I tested the mirror match with kadilak earlyier, the only problem I had was enforcer does U/G/r gro have an answer? I boarded in FTK and never drew one! there was 26 cards left and 4 FTK! isnt that lame... As for peek I would run it in U/G/w gro because of mage and MD needle. Peek makes both of those cards atleast twice as good as they already are. What's the better beef in U/G/r gro dragon or sea drake? Also has anyone thought of confidant in gro? I was messing with it but I was to lazy to look for beefy black threshold dudes, is there any playable ones?

Obfuscate Freely
11-28-2005, 09:51 PM
Dragon is your answer to Enforcer, but Sea Drake is sexy with sideboard Winter Orb. Take your pick.

The other good way of dealing with a resolved Enforcer is to grave-hate them out of threshold, and Bolt/Bear it.

dsg123456789
11-28-2005, 11:16 PM
@Wasted:
There are no good black threshold creatures, save 3/3 fears for 1B that can't block. So really, no. I thought about confidant, but it is the only think black offers, where blue is so much deeper (because you must cut blue for confidant because Force of Will is not playable in a deck that already normally bolts itself).

I find Dragon to be a better beater because it is a 5/5, doesn't ruin your tempo when it matters, and it swings for a lot more. However, Winter Orb sideboard is pretty good, and Sea Drake can randomly beat an unprepared deck if you get it turn 3, and it also surives graveyard hate better than the Dragon does.

I save my counters for Bears and Enforcers when facing UGw Gro. I only need to resolve a nimble mongoose, and that will go all the way. Also, as Ob Freely said, Dragon is your only answer to Enforcer.


Because I have been frustrated with UGr Gro's weakness to large creatures, I have been thinking about how I might go about playing 4-color Gro (UGrw). I figured with StP, Armageddon, Magma Jet, Mage, Enforcer, Bolt, F/I, Lightning Helix, etc, it might turn out to be very powerful. I think that I would probably run Enforcers main over Dragons, and then sideboard Geddons, Pyroclasms, Mages, and StP. With that mix, you get the powerful lategame of Red while having the metagame tools of White (I believe that White allows for more metagaming than Red does).

Also, I would like to plug against for Compost in the sideboard as a 2+ of for a metagame call. This card makes the Black deck matchups that are fairly difficult very, very easy, and you cannot lose if you resolve 2 of them (They are better with the Red splash because black weenies are small, and so burn 'yards them to draw cards while StP doesn't let you draw cards). I just want to make sure to bring this potential bomb to the attention of all Gro players who may struggle against Black decks in their own metas--it will shore up your matchup and then some.

Ridiculous Hat
11-29-2005, 12:10 AM
Pretty much everything OF said, I agree with. Peek does seem really bad, and even with Needle and Mage, you don't necessarily name what they have for the "cool" play-- you name what you're worried about them having. They're insurance policies that just happen to be proactive. Consider Pithing Needle and Meddling Mage closer to "Seal of Counterspell" than anything.

As for black, I guess you could play Possessed Aven, but honestly the best UGb threshold creature is Psychatog, even if it technically doesn't have threshold written on it.

Compost seems interesting, though I suppose it's a metagame issue-- if lots of people are playing Pikula.dec then Compost definitely belongs, but otherwise it seems like it's a really narrow hoser. Though I guess that's what they said about Tivadar's Crusade. :cool:

kimberley
11-29-2005, 05:44 AM
From this past weekend (source Morphling.de) (http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=313). (Thanks Kimberly!)

This is a bit embarrassing...cause that list is actually mine. I just sent bardo that link for the Appendix.
The more important thing i wanted to tell him was...
...well windux already told you that he succeeded at GPT Lille in Dortmund with a list very close to Hat's.
The thing you may be interested in, is: That GPT was in fact dominated by NQG.

T8:
1/2 = Ugw NQG / WUBS
3/4 = Ugr NQG* / Ugr NQG*
5/6/7/8 = Burn/ Burn/ Flame Vault/ RW Rift

*both MD identical to Pat Mc Gregors GP list. You can watch them at morphling.de anyway soon.

This result is far more important than my success in Bremen imo. In fact i tend to believe that GPT Dortmund was the hardest and most meaningful Legacy Event i ever attended to (and i've seen lots of them if you consider the stardards of german Legacy).
There were only 3 or 4 VialGoblin lists among those 32 players iirc and i knew at least one of them as an expierenced player. As you see none of them reached T8. The best of them played 3-2, and he only achieved that by being lucky enough to play round 5 against me (i had the worst tourney ever (playing UrLandstill), which was pretty much my own work, not that of the strong meta).
It should be mentioned too, that WUBS was already defeated by its semifinal opponent round 5, which scooped in the playoffs.

I want to comment the fact that my list is very close to Lam's.
I played the deck without Mages and with 4 MD Mongoose at some events and did not miss Mage's ability that much (it is obviously good - i don't want to argue about that). I added Mage to my list again cause i simply wanted to run more creatures MD. Originally i planned to go up to 14, but found only space for 13 in the end. Later on i realized i came very close to Lam's list.
Anyway...

I had discussions with windux at zkforum.de, during which we had to realize that we have very different ideas about the deck's choices as well as about it's general idea.

It seems obvious to me that lists close to Lam's have much more late game control strengh due to better topdecking possibilities and the use of AK, while lists close to Hat's are more consistent due to the higher number of cc1 cantrips and usually hit threshold a turn (or at least half a turn) earlier.

The only thing i miss in this thread yet, is a discussion about those two different approaches and their pro's and con's.
In the SuperGro thread several choices were discussed without any respect towards in which variants they may be played.

I see that as a problem of the discussion in general. I don't believe it will bring us much further, if we discuss choices (especially the cantrips) as isolated items.
We all know the arguments about Mental Note, AK, Predict, Portent etc. and all of us have tested at least the choices we are playing.

@Hat
All i know about your match vs. Lam is this:

Round 9 - Lam Phan with mirror. G1 he gets 0 green sources after 3 serum visions. I play a meddling mage on stp and then two werebears. G2 the bad buildness of his deck with AKs etc is revealed and I end up taking it home with lots more creatures than he had because I rule. Also I made an awesome play g2-- I have an unthreshed werebear and two lands in play, he's tapped out. I untap and play a meddling mage precombat, he dazes... and I PAY THAT SHIT.

I would very much like to hear more about the match, and why you believe that a more controlish variant of the deck is bad by definition.
We have exchanged many arguments about all of the cantrips. I would like to hear what you (and the rest of us as well) feel the deck has to do.
You may say AK is slow as hell, which we all know. So why don't we play Mental Note...let's say instead of Sleight of Hand.
We all know the pros and cons of those two as well.
Why is Predict+Sleight the right amount of speed on the one hand and CQ & CA on the other in your opinion?
Which aspects of the meta would have to change to make slower or faster cantrips more desireable?

Ridiculous Hat
11-29-2005, 11:58 AM
I said more about Lam's deck in my tournament report on starcity, but basically game 1 he got color-screwed and game 2 the game went on forever and I got the enforcer first as he only played 2. Things that I noted:

-He only had 8 one-mana cantrips, so I found that numerous times he was not able to play as much card draw as I was.
-He played AK late-game in game 2 and ended up drawing 1 and then drawing 2 with it. It didn't actually help him at all.
-His sideboard is a mess.
-He brought in Pithing Needles after board for some reason.

He said afterwards that the only matches he lost in the swiss were to the mirror (to me and CavernNinja, no less), so I'd be inclined to believe that his build is not the best for a gro-dominated field.

I find that if you play 11 one-mana cantrips, you can safely only run 17 lands. Pithing Needle helps with that as well in terms of the Wasteland factor, so really it helps the deck topdeck even better and doesn't saddle your hand with a bunch of spells that require two lands to cast. Predict is the only CA spell because it also happens to fill up the yard a little quicker, and so far I've found it to be quite good. The fact that certain builds of Landstill are playing Enlightened Tutor is just icing on the cake-- Predict is what I want out of a two-mana draw spell, and typically if you have extras it can still clog up the hand. Usually a Brainstorm followed by a Predict naming Predict is the most optimal play.

Ray D 3
11-29-2005, 04:07 PM
Well, at this point I would say we all realize that Winter Orb has incredibly savage synergy with Sea Drake, Daze, and (if you run it) Fire/Ice.

So, my question is, why has no one given a list with md orbs a try? I would be inclined to say that it fits this deck's strategy quite nicely; especially when coupled with additional mana denial in the form of Stifle.

Also, why is the U/R list the only one running Drake?

As a side note, Naturalize>Disenchant.

Windux
11-29-2005, 05:30 PM
In a Meta, where Goblins are dominating, it isnt that smart to Run a card, that Supports Goblins even more.
You maybe play 1-2 Canttrips to search a Blocker and gain as soon as possible Threeshold, because your 1/1 Critters, arent that good.

One reason, why i never tried Sea Drake is, that his Body is 4/3...3 is the magic number: Lightning Bolt, Chain lightning, Incinerate. A 3/4 Body and i would probatly play it.
Sea Drake trades 1:1 with:
90% of all Burn (Fire/ice not)
Threshold Werebear
even Threeshold Nimble Mongoose

Fledling and Enforcer is at least a 1:2 Trade for you.
I Mean x/5 and x/6 Bodys. It even trades with Eternal Dragon, Exalted Angel or all Goblin, Stompy, AngelStompy Creatures.
Ok Eternal are only in RW Rift, Rabit Whobmat and maybe as 1-2off in Landstills (90% for LandFetching).

Mad Zur
11-29-2005, 06:06 PM
It just so happens at the moment that the people who like Sea Drake seem to all also like red. I don't think there's any inherent difference, though; I'd run Drake over Enforcer as soon as over Dragon. The reason I'm running Drake right now is because mana denial (mostly my own Winter Orbs vs. control) is more prevalent than fat (the mirror/RGSA/Angel Stompy/etc). If the reverse became true, I could see myself switching back to Dragon.

As for Lightning Bolt, few decks play the card and none are very popular. Burn would rather target you, and Goblins probably won't see a Drake (they get shuffled away and boarded out). I would only worry about it if I expected a significant amount of U/R Landstill, SDZ, and/or the mirror match. Also, it doesn't trade with Mongoose so much as it races Mongoose.

I wouldn't play Winter Orb MD mostly because of Goblins, and to a lesser extent the mirror match and Deadguy Ale.

Bardo
11-29-2005, 07:06 PM
So, my question is, why has no one given a list with md orbs a try? I would be inclined to say that it fits this deck's strategy quite nicely; especially when coupled with additional mana denial in the form of Stifle.
I've tried it a couple of times. They're awful. They combo'd with Gush to break Worb's symmetry, but this deck is a mana hog, since you need to be aggressively cantripping early and often to dig for land and reach an early theshold.

Winter Orb is only good (from Thresh's side of the table), when you're already beating face and your opponent is tapped out. Up until that point, i.e. you're in aggro mode, they do as much or more damage to thresh as the opponent.

They seem good, but testing hasn't borne that out.



Edited By bardo_trout on 1133321867

overlord95
11-29-2005, 11:40 PM
As for black, I guess you could play Possessed Aven, but honestly the best UGb threshold creature is Psychatog, even if it technically doesn't have threshold written on it.
I can asure you that psychatog is GOD FREAKIN AWFUL!!!!!
tog
1.) He doesnt have evasion
2.) He cant block piledriver
3.) To really exploit his abilty you need to run main md berserks
4.) He has bad synergy with the rest of the creatures in the deck

aven
1.) Kills tog, sea drake, meddling mage, galinas knight, and tradewind rider. plus more
2.) Can fly over for the win while werebear and mongoose holds the ground
3.) Gets in the way of piledriver.
4.) Easier on the manabase.

I can assure you that aven is infinitly better then tog just for the fact it flys.

Anusien
11-30-2005, 03:19 AM
But playing Possessed Aven makes you play black, which is the weakest of the 3C Threshold splashes because it doesn't efficiently deal with creatures, especially Goblins. Also, Mystic Enforcer does just a good a time for beating Tog, it evades Tog (even with Wonder) and is a faster clock. It's also not REBable which has become important randomly.

Artowis
11-30-2005, 03:22 AM
As for black, I guess you could play Possessed Aven, but honestly the best UGb threshold creature is Psychatog, even if it technically doesn't have threshold written on it.
I can asure you that psychatog is GOD FREAKIN AWFUL!!!!!
tog
1.) He doesnt have evasion
2.) He cant block piledriver
3.) To really exploit his abilty you need to run main md berserks
4.) He has bad synergy with the rest of the creatures in the deck

aven
1.) Kills tog, sea drake, meddling mage, galinas knight, and tradewind rider. plus more
2.) Can fly over for the win while werebear and mongoose holds the ground
3.) Gets in the way of piledriver.
4.) Easier on the manabase.

I can assure you that aven is infinitly better then tog just for the fact it flys.
I don't even know how to respond to such a statement.

1. Tog is cheaper.

2. Tog can actually kill the opponent in a relevant time frame and/or decide to be a very effective wall.

3. Tog doesn't die to the vast majority of burn or creature combat.

Ugh... yeah one of the best creatures in the game sucks because he doesn't fly. Right. On a side-note, GAT has been pretty bad since Gush got banned, so I don't know why anyone would want to run the black splash in the first place.



Edited By Artowis on 1133335539

Ridiculous Hat
11-30-2005, 04:51 AM
As for black, I guess you could play Possessed Aven, but honestly the best UGb threshold creature is Psychatog, even if it technically doesn't have threshold written on it.
I can asure you that psychatog is GOD FREAKIN AWFUL!!!!!
tog
1.) He doesnt have evasion
2.) He cant block piledriver
3.) To really exploit his abilty you need to run main md berserks
4.) He has bad synergy with the rest of the creatures in the deck

aven
1.) Kills tog, sea drake, meddling mage, galinas knight, and tradewind rider. plus more
2.) Can fly over for the win while werebear and mongoose holds the ground
3.) Gets in the way of piledriver.
4.) Easier on the manabase.

I can assure you that aven is infinitly better then tog just for the fact it flys.
I don't even know how to respond to such a statement.

1. Tog is cheaper.

2. Tog can actually kill the opponent in a relevant time frame and/or decide to be a very effective wall.

3. Tog doesn't die to the vast majority of burn or creature combat.

Ugh... yeah one of the best creatures in the game sucks because he doesn't fly. Right. On a side-note, GAT has been pretty bad since Gush got banned, so I don't know why anyone would want to run the black splash in the first place.
Yeah, um, listen to him. Tog is deeeefinitely a really good creature, the problem is that the strategies inherent with Tog are pretty poor right now. He's a good creature that doesn't work in traditional threshold builds, and if you're splashing black you should probably be playing tog, as there's no real other reason to do so. Like, I agree-- playing Tog right now doesn't seem like a great idea in the face of infi swords and red blasts. However, saying he's bad because of that is just wrong-- if the metagame shifts correctly he could be a very potent force to be reckoned with. Tog hasn't had natural evasion for, um, ever, and that hasn't stopped it from dominating in multiple formats.

Obfuscate Freely
11-30-2005, 05:50 AM
But playing Possessed Aven makes you play black, which is the weakest of the 3C Threshold splashes because it doesn't efficiently deal with creatures, especially Goblins.Is this really coming from the guy who calls Legacy players bad because Engineered Plague isn't being played enough?

Ghastly Demise is pretty strong, too. Black's removal goes far deeper than White's, and probably Red's as well.


1. Tog is cheaper.True, but hardly convincing on its own. At 4cc, Possessed Aven isn't beyond the curve.


2. Tog can actually kill the opponent in a relevant time frame and/or decide to be a very effective wall.Possessed Aven can "actually" do that, too.


3. Tog doesn't die to the vast majority of burn or creature combat.Neither does Aven.


Ugh... yeah one of the best creatures in the game sucks because he doesn't fly. Right.The role it would play in the deck requires evasion. Aven is better because of that, and because its body doesn't require constant support to stay large.


On a side-note, GAT has been pretty bad since Gush got banned, so I don't know why anyone would want to run the black splash in the first place.Splashing black in Gro does not turn the deck into GAT. What black offers to a Gro deck includes better draw (Night's Whisper), more disruption (Duress), and Engineered Plague. Possessed Aven isn't really a benefit of the splash; it's just a passable replacement for Enforcer.


I don't even know how to respond to such a statement.This is why you should test things before you dismiss them.



Edited By Obfuscate Freely on 1133392612

overlord95
11-30-2005, 02:19 PM
But playing Possessed Aven makes you play black, which is the weakest of the 3C Threshold splashes because it doesn't efficiently deal with creatures, especially Goblins.
At the gp I had 4 out of 4 goblin players scoop to double Eplague. Yea that definitly seems inefficent.


1. Tog is cheaper.
True but this fact alone does not justify his incluion in the md. By playing Night's whisper you can effectivly hit your land drops which will enusre the turn 4 aven.



2. Tog can actually kill the opponent in a relevant time frame and/or decide to be a very effective wall.
Aven kills swings for 4 every turn as opposed to tog which requires resources every turn to stay on par.



Ugh... yeah one of the best creatures in the game sucks because he doesn't fly. Right.
I'm not saying that tog is a bad creature. Don't get me wrong tog is amazing. What i'm trying to conveit is that the stratgy behind tog doesnt suit the deck or the spaces needed to fill the enforcer/dragon slots.

Hof
11-30-2005, 07:16 PM
Psychatog has no place in here because the deck doesn't have a draw engine powerful enough to abuse him. The deck relies on few effective draws which is exactly what the atog does not want, it wants lots and lots of cards, and then more cards. This alone is reason enough to not even consider it, but it is antisynergistic with threshold mechanic as well. The idea is just terrible, really.

Vimes
11-30-2005, 07:44 PM
You have never even tried GAT, have you, Hof? You have enough card in the grave yard that you only lose threshold when you go all in with 'tog. Seriously, think, or even better, test before you post.

The mod staff agrees with everything T is for Tool said in the post below this one. Unnecessarily abrasive posts that add nothing of value to the conversation are considered both flames and spams. Avoid it in the future or you will be warned. - Zilla

T is for TOOL
11-30-2005, 08:24 PM
You have never even tried GAT, have you, Hof? You have enough card in the grave yard that you only lose threshold when you go all in with 'tog. Seriously, think, or even better, test before you post.
That was very abrasive and uncalled for. Your comment does nothing to add to the discussion and your choice of wording smacks of GRAH. Comments like that are the reason some people avoid this site. Since you seem to have missed this fact, the deck in question is UGB Gro, not GAT. Not having ever played Gro before, I'm more inclined to listen to those who advocate Possessed Aven based on theory and actual testing, over those that claim you should run Tog beacuse he is 'deeeefinitely a really good creature'.

Bardo
11-30-2005, 08:35 PM
As someone who really wanted GAT to work in Legacy (and I mean, really), after trying dozens of configurations, I could never get the deck to perform as well as UWG. Splashing Black, you'll do so much better with Loam/Dredge-A-Tog.

4 Psychatog
4 Werebear / Dryad
1 Wonder

4 Brainstorm
4 Night's Whispers
3 Intuition
2 Deep Analysis
1 Life from the Loam

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Daze

3 Ghastly Demise
2 Darkblast

4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Lonely Sandbar
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest / Bayou

(sideboard)
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Engineered Plague
4 Duress
3 Naturalize / Pernicious Deed

Eh, maybe? But tacking "Threshold" or "GAT" onto this, if you're secondary beater is Werebear or Dryad, respectively, seems kinda silly. I'd just assume drop those support creatures and add more control elements, and let Tog do what he does best.

Bardo, not intentionally pulling this discussion off the beaten path.



Edited By bardo_trout on 1133398777

SpencerForHire
12-01-2005, 12:56 AM
My main issue with Tog is that he is a one trick horse, or dog or whatever type of animal that is. :D
The reason tog is so weak right now is because you have to invest cards in him. The cards you do invest are a one time only investment, they do nothing the next turn.

Threshold is a strong deck because the creatures are cheaply costed cards that require no other investment besides that of the deck functioning and setting up it's hand with control elements and the like.

If Tog was to work he would have to get through the time you swing and you have to win that turn. If you don't you're going to overextended your resources and be out of cards in general.

The reason GAT works in Type 1 is because their aren't the large variety of blockers to get in the way and even if there are you have already set up your fist so full of counters (and probably that wonderful card called berserk) that it just won't matter.

Unfortunately in a format full of creatures (and hate thereof) you just aren't going to have the one card combo results that Psychatog put up in our more expensive brethren of a format.

Ridiculous Hat
12-01-2005, 02:43 AM
You have never even tried GAT, have you, Hof? You have enough card in the grave yard that you only lose threshold when you go all in with 'tog. Seriously, think, or even better, test before you post.
That was very abrasive and uncalled for. Your comment does nothing to add to the discussion and your choice of wording smacks of GRAH. Comments like that are the reason some people avoid this site. Since you seem to have missed this fact, the deck in question is UGB Gro, not GAT. Not having ever played Gro before, I'm more inclined to listen to those who advocate Possessed Aven based on theory and actual testing, over those that claim you should run Tog beacuse he is 'deeeefinitely a really good creature'.
I claim that tog is definitely a really good creature because I've played with him in many formats and he is purely ridiculous to play agianst sometimes. I'm merely saying that UGb gro is a weaker splash and I think not playing Tog in it is a mistake-- yes, I have tested it, and yes, I'd like to say that I have some experience with gro. I do agree that abrasive posting is a mistake, but saying that Tog is bad reeks just as much of lack of proper playtesting. If one were to qualify the statement with "Tog is bad in this format because of the way decks are tending and the difficulty inherent in trying to protect a single threat", then I'd be inclined to take it more seriously.

umbowta
12-01-2005, 12:34 PM
I've been testing the black splash for a couple of weeks now. I really love the addition of Duress and E-plague to the board. The thing I've missed the most is the big flying body of Mystic Enforcer. I did indeed try Psychatog, which felt like trying to stuff a square peg into a round hole.
I can asure you that psychatog is GOD FREAKIN AWFUL!!!!!
tog
1.) He doesnt have evasion
2.) He cant block piledriver
3.) To really exploit his abilty you need to run main md berserks
4.) He has bad synergy with the rest of the creatures in the deck
All of my testing supports Overlord95's conclusions. The opening caused by Mystic Enforcer's absence needs to be filled with a reasonably costed flyer. Posessed Aven happens to fit the role best, until WoTC gives us something better for 4cc.

Tog is awful in UGb gro. Tog is good in GAT. These are two completely different decks. While I initially thought that tog would be a good fit in UGb Gro, testing proved otherwise. While I agree that UGb is currently the weaker of the 3 UGx's, I strongly believe that is has the most potential waiting to be unlocked. The sideboarding potential alone is sweeeeet.
saying that Tog is bad reeks just as much of lack of proper playtesting.I respect your oppinion, Hat, as your recent sucess conveys a high level of competence. In order to come to some sort of resolve on this issue, I'm wanting to do some retesting with Tog in UGb. What does your UGb list look like with the Tog inclusion, and what adjustments do you think need to be made in play strategy in order to attain "proper playtesting"? Please remember that I am of the mind that there is a fundamental difference between UGb and GAT.

AnwarA101
12-01-2005, 03:28 PM
I know that someone previously mentioned Dark Confidant in this thread and I was thinking along the same lines. Wouldn't it make sense to have a creature that creates pure card advantage. I was thinking something along the lines of the following -


4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
3 Dark Confidant
2 Possessed Aven

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
2 Counterspell

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Sensei Diving Top
4 Predict

4 Ghastly Demise

4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Swamp

This is very similar to overlord95's build but Night's Whisper is just replaced with Confidant and the Divinig Top is added because it works well with Confidant and Predict.

t3h.sWaRm
12-01-2005, 06:22 PM
Don't mean to change the topic but I have a few questions about the UWG version of the deck. I've started putting it together and testing it on apprentice, but there are still some things that I need to know, mainly sideboarding. I find it very difficult to decide what to take out for sideboard cards. What I'd like to have is a skeleton of what MUST remain in the deck(in ALL matchups) and what are side-outable. Clearly the lands will stay in, we need some beats so I never take out creatures unless I'm swapping in Mongeese(is that wrong?), the control element is essential for protection, and cantrips build the yard. What else can I take out? Like I said before, a list of what CAN be taken out would be greatly appreciated or better yet, what do you sideboard for the main matchups(Gobs, Mirror, etc)? My SB is currently that of Ridiculous Hat's (I have yet to test any changes, still getting used to the deck).

Bardo
12-01-2005, 06:29 PM
I hope this helps.

sb 4 Blue Elemental Blast
sb 3 Seal of Cleansing
sb 3 Tivadar’s Crusade
sb 3 Pithing Needle
sb 2 Armageddon

Goblins
+4 Blue Elemental Blast
+3 Tivadar’s Crusade
-4 Accumulated Knowledge
-3 Meddling Mage

Sligh/RDW, Burn
+4 Blue Elemental Blast
-4 Accumulated Knowledge

Landstill
+3 Seal of Cleansing
+2 Armageddon
-2 Sleight of Hand
-1 Disenchant
-1 Disrupting Shoal
-1 Engineered Explosives

High Tide
+2 Armageddon
-2 Swords to Plowshares

Survival, Reanimation
+3 Pithing Needle
-2 Sleight of Hand
-1 Disrupting Shoal

Psychatog / Madness
+3 Pithing Needle
-2 Disenchant
-1 Sleight of Hand

Fish
+2 Armageddon
+1 Seal of Cleansing
-2 Sleight of Hand
-1 Meddling Mage

Affinity
+3 Seal of Cleansing
+1 Armageddon
-4 Accumulated Knowledge

Angel Stompy
+3 Seal of Cleansing
-3 Accumulated Knowledge

Pithing Needle is new to me, so I'm still working on how best to incorporate it.



Edited By bardo_trout on 1133477531

Ridiculous Hat
12-01-2005, 07:37 PM
I agree that GAT and UGb gro are different decks, and to an extent I think my message got muddled or perhaps my understanding of what was being discussed was off. I think Tog is a very good creature in an environment not quite suited to him, regardless of the fact that he will win many games. However, I think that once you put Tog in a gro deck, the deck tends to shift very quickly towards GAT-- which is not necessarily a bad thing. In my testing, I agree that Tog cannot just be put in the Mystic Enforcer slots. However, as soon as I even thought about adding black to the deck, there was no list I could even think of running that wasn't GAT-- otherwise the deck just didn't seem to work period. Maybe I glossed over the middle step too quickly, but in my eyes, there's no reason to add black to gro unless you're going to play GAT.

Bardo
12-01-2005, 08:19 PM
@ Hat, anyone else - Which matches do you side Pithing Needle out? Do you keep them in against Goblins?

Obfuscate Freely
12-01-2005, 08:57 PM
I think that once you put Tog in a gro deck, the deck tends to shift very quickly towards GAT-- which is not necessarily a bad thing. In my testing, I agree that Tog cannot just be put in the Mystic Enforcer slots. However, as soon as I even thought about adding black to the deck, there was no list I could even think of running that wasn't GAT-- otherwise the deck just didn't seem to work period. Maybe I glossed over the middle step too quickly, but in my eyes, there's no reason to add black to gro unless you're going to play GAT.
What's difficult to imagine about simply swapping white and black cards?

STP becomes Ghastly Demise or Vendetta.
Enforcer becomes Possessed Aven or Sea Drake.
Predict or Portent/Sleight of Hand becomes Night's Whisper.

Aside from Whisper, you also gain access to Plague, Duress, and a whole lot of other things to consider for the board. Those are the reasons to play black in Gro.

Ridiculous Hat
12-01-2005, 09:08 PM
@ Hat, anyone else - Which matches do you side Pithing Needle out? Do you keep them in against Goblins?
Let me detail my sideboard plans.

Goblins:

-4 mage
-4 predict
-1 shoal
-1 daze
+4 hydroblast
+3 tivadar's crusade
+3 mongoose

general control/solidarity:

-1 shoal
-4 swords
-1 daze

+3 geddon
+3 mongoose

mirror:

-3 needle
+3 mongoose

burn:

-3 needle
-4 mage/predict (i generally go with mage)

+3 mongoose
+4 hydroblast

survival:

No changes? I think the current maindeck is pretty awesome there.

Pithing Needles seem to be good against pretty much everything. You keep them in against gobs to name vial or wasteland, generally.

@OF: You could do the straight-up swap but that seemed really underpowered to me-- I just don't think gro with black would be worth playing over the white or red builds. The sideboard options aren't really enticing enough, as you already have anti-goblins cards that are almost as good as plague (if not better in the case of pyroclasm), and really it just seems like it's strictly worse than the red version. Every single time I built a version that just strictly swapped colors as you said, I didn't see any reason to play it over the red or white builds (or GAT, for that matter).

Bryant Cook
12-01-2005, 09:19 PM
@ObFreely- is it nessesary to play stifle in U/G/r gro? I keep finding that I don't want it and would ranther have another cantrip. Is it dumb not to play stifle or needle? That and what are gro players sideboards because I don't like my current board.

Sideboard//
4 pyroclasm
3 FTK
2 Naturalize
4 REB
2 Worb

Advice please.

Edit: What do you think of furnace in the SB for the mirror and RGSA/ATS? maybe reanimator? This came to my head while thinking about the lotus tournement in Rochester.

kimberley
12-01-2005, 09:38 PM
Let me detail my sideboard plans.

Goblins:

-4 mage
-4 predict
-1 shoal
-1 daze
+4 hydroblast
+3 tivadar's crusade
+3 mongoose

general control/solidarity:

-1 shoal
-4 swords
-1 daze

+3 geddon
+3 mongoose

mirror:

-3 needle
+3 mongoose

burn:

-3 needle
-4 mage/predict (i generally go with mage)

+3 mongoose
+4 hydroblast

survival:

No changes? I think the current maindeck is pretty awesome there.
Well...
...this is the point where i understand neither you nor the majority of UgwNQG players for about two or three month now.

You are boarding in Nimble Mongoose in every matchup you mentioned.
What would be so bad about running it MD?

I want to finally understand how you think about this.
I simply fear i am missing some crucial point about this.
So please tell me:
1. What would you cut if you wanted to run Mongoose MD.
2. Why don't you want to do that?

Ridiculous Hat
12-01-2005, 09:46 PM
Nimble Mongoose is a good card, but it is not really special in any matchups. There is nowhere that it really shines in the major metagame-- sure, it's a great card against Fish, but no average matchups are really crushed by Nimble Mongoose. You take out different cards for it every time, so while I don't think it's the worst idea to have it maindeck, I don't know if there's much of a reason to.

If I were to put it main, it would be in a metagame where Meddling Mage was not the greatest-- if you cut a Mage or two to squeeze in some mongeese, I could understand it. I just think every other card in the deck serves a specific purpose and mongoose does not-- Werebear and Enforcer are both better at Goose's job game 1 almost always.

dsg123456789
12-01-2005, 10:28 PM
@wastedlife: I think that stifle/pithing needle is absolutely nessecary in the MD, because without it some deck like B/W Bob or a deck that runs Wasteland+crucible, or even just Wasteland, can shut you out of the game turn 1 by nailing your first land and then you failing to draw into more lands. 17 lands is so light that you really need to protect them. I use pithing needle, because it is good against pretty much every deck, and the first one negates every Wasteland; however, Stifle is a suprise (but pretty much inferior ad hoc).

I think MD Mongeese are great, b/c they shine against decks with targeted removal, giving you a fat beater that slips under countermagic/discard and is virtually unkillable by many decks (excluding Wombat).

My current sideboard for UGr Gro is this:
4 Pyroclasm--Goblins
2 Compost--Discard-heavy decks (since one of these hitting play almost guarentees a win)
3 Naturalize--Decks with specific (not numerous) artifacts or enchantments that I need to be able to remove.
2 REB--Decks with counters
1 Pyroblast--Diversify for Meddling Mage, but run in this mix because you can MisD Pyroblast to any spell or permanent
3 ???--I have not settled on a card that I have also found useful, but I have experimented with WOrb without success here (w/o maindeck Sea Drakes)

Don Juan-Suave
12-02-2005, 12:02 AM
Pithing Needle is absolutely amazing. Is there any reason why Stifle should be played over Pithing Needle in this deck or any other deck? Sure, Stifle stops the storm mechanic, but Gro and varients already have a good match against combo.

kimberley
12-02-2005, 03:50 AM
Pithing Needle is absolutely amazing. Is there any reason why Stifle should be played over Pithing Needle in this deck or any other deck? Sure, Stifle stops the storm mechanic, but Gro and varients already have a good match against combo.
Generally Needle is imo much better than Stifle (at least for conventional Ugw).

In my current version i run Stifle instead of Needle MD for two reasons:
1. I play 2 Disrupting Shoal MD and have only 8 1cc cantrips to pitch.
2. I want to use it in Matchups, where either the reactive element of Stifle becomes important (Stifling Fetchlands on occasion) or i want to Stifle triggered abilities (Goblins etc.).

But i cannot recommend this at all yet. Pithing Needle is turning several matchups in your favor. Today's testing vs. SA and TheRock was hard. Stifling SotF, Volrath's Stronghold, or even Withered Wretch pre board just for tempo is depressing.

Windux
12-02-2005, 04:23 AM
swarm I play the List very Similar to Hats one

This is my list for Tomorows Grand Prix Trial (Yes, I got Byes, but i want to help to shuttle my Friends..and gain Rating-Pts ;) )

Meta:
Definetly 3* Solidarity
3-4 Goblins
4-5 NQG (Last GPT Dortmund 4 NQGs and this Time, the Same +1 New..or even more)
RandomBurn
Random Handdiscard-Aggro
1-3 RW Aggroglide

Mainboard:
Manabase (Didn't Change since First Playing ;) )
4 Tropicals
3 Tunda
3/3 Windswept/Flooded
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plain

Creaturebase (+2 Mongoose -1 Mage)
2 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
3 Meddling mage
3 Mystic Enforcer

Controlbase (-1 Shoal)
4 StoP
3 Pithing Needle (maybe i Change this to 2 Needle, 1 Explosive)
2 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Sleight of Hands (Scared, to change them with mental note for the better Mirror-Threeshold against GY-Hate)
4 brainstorm
4 predict
4 Serum Vision

Sideboard:
1 Nimble mongoose
1 Meddling Mage
3 Armaggeddon
2 Engineered Explosive
2 Stifle
2 BEB
2 Hydroblast
2 Phyrexian Furnace /Tormods Crypt


Sideboard-Plans:

Goblins
+1 Mongoose
+2 BEB
+2 Hydro
-4 Predict
-1 Mage

Landstill (Aggro-Armaggedon Strategy)
+3 Armaggeddon
+2 Stifle
-2 Mongoose
-1 Enforcer
-2 Cards, depends on the Built of the Landstill

Mirror [White]
+1 Mongoose
+2 Furnace/Crypt
-2 Mage
+2 Stifle
-3 needle

Nearly Mirror [Red]
+1 mongoose
+2 Crypt
+2 Stifle
-3 Needle
-2 Mage (Not Quite Shure)

RW Rift (Aggro-Armageddon Strategy)
+2 Engineered Explosive
+3 Armageddon
-4 StoP
-1 Mystic Enforcer

Mulletus
12-02-2005, 11:35 AM
I have to say that the best thing about this deck is that it makes people think twice about playing combo. The more control out there... the less combo. And we all know that RGSA can't beat combo. But no matter what you add against RGSA I still like my chances against any grow variant. Even with Needle naming Survival, I'll play it and wait for removal. Or cast creatures... Genesis, Anger, and Squee still attack and block.

t3h.sWaRm
12-02-2005, 12:28 PM
Thanks for the SB strategies. So I now realize that Predict isn't so good in the Goblins matchup since it's too slow. But why do you take out Shoal(R. Hat)? I thought the reason it was in MD was so you could stop first turn Lackey. Is it because you now have 3 Tiv's Crusade so even if they hit with Lackey once or twice you can just wipe the board to gain card advantage?

Windux
12-02-2005, 12:43 PM
Shoal is a MB 5th Fordce for Lackey, since you don't whant Specific hate against Goblins. Shoal can Couter everything (don't say it Can't Counter Collossus :P).

After Boaring you got enough Hate against lackey:
4 StoP
4 Force
3 Mongoose
4 hydroblast

if you start + 3 Daze

Later 3 Crusades

Shaol gives you Carddisadvantage, what would be your Grave against it.

Even if he Gets First turn Lackey, 2nd pile+Lackey Pile you have enough Solutions on that.

Sry for this Non-Well Describtion but im tiered ;)

SpencerForHire
12-02-2005, 02:48 PM
Shoal is a MB 5th Fordce for Lackey, since you don't whant Specific hate against Goblins. Shoal can Couter everything (don't say it Can't Counter Collossus :P).

After Boaring you got enough Hate against lackey:
4 StoP
4 Force
3 Mongoose
4 hydroblast

if you start + 3 Daze

Later 3 Crusades

Shaol gives you Carddisadvantage, what would be your Grave against it.

Even if he Gets First turn Lackey, 2nd pile+Lackey Pile you have enough Solutions on that.

Sry for this Non-Well Describtion but im tiered ;)
I'll agree Shoal is good an it is a Maindeck 5th force versus Lackey as well as many other cards in the format.

I'm almost confused over what you are saying but let me see if I can clarify. After boarding you have 4 STP, 4 Force, 3 Mongoose, 4 Hydroblast, 3 Daze and Tivader's Crusade?
I'm pretty sure that is what you ment.

My main reason for replying to this specific post though was to argue against "Shoal gives you card disadvantage, which is your grave against goblins.

I disagree against this because your biggest issue is goblins getting out a card that bypasses counterspells (Lackey, Vial). If you can get rid of these outlets, preferably before they come active then it doesn't matter how many cards you lose.
My logic is, if they get an active Lackey/Vial, then every single Counterspell you are holding has now become a dead card. Your Meddling Mages also become dead versus stopping certain goblins from being played. I would gladly Shoal a Vial or Lackey if it ment my counterspells will still work.

umbowta
12-02-2005, 03:40 PM
I would gladly Shoal a Vial or Lackey if it ment my counterspells will still work.
I might agree with you except for the fact that WoTC has printed actual good cards that don't require you to bend over so far. StP is already maindeck and Hydroblast can come in from the board, both of which smoke Lackey. And, the last time I checked, White and Green have plenty of ways to remove problem artifacts, like Vial, that happen to resolve through the counterwall.

I really would, however, like to welcome you back to thesource after such an extended hiatas, Gimbles.

SpencerForHire
12-02-2005, 03:49 PM
Well thank you :).

As far as other solutions to vial and lackey. Why wouldn't you also want Shoal just as a just in case for not having the answers you explained. I would much rather have Shoal AND Swords AND Hydroblast.

Ridiculous Hat
12-02-2005, 04:01 PM
Preboard you want Shoal just because you need to stop their nutdraws no matter what, and most of them start with Vial or Lackey. You are willing to give up a couple of cards to stop their important bombs and you don't have that many answers to them maindeck. Postboard, your deck becomes drastically better against theirs, as you have 7 more answers to lackey and a plague wind. You don't really want or need the card disadvantage at that point and you'd rather just dig for your superior trump cards. If you want to keep in the Shoal, though, you can take out another Daze instead-- those are only okay when you're on the draw. On the play you probably want to keep two in, though.

SpencerForHire
12-02-2005, 10:58 PM
Sensible, I guess with the tight room for sideboarding and such there is no reason not to run strictly better cards in the goblin matchup post board and that is what we are going for.

Ridiculous Hat
12-02-2005, 11:53 PM
Sensible, I guess with the tight room for sideboarding and such there is no reason not to run strictly better cards in the goblin matchup post board and that is what we are going for.
For the record, though, I will also freely admit that just because I've had success with this deck doesn't make everything I did completely correct. If anyone tests and finds that having the Shoal in the deck is better than Daze #2, please post in the thread.

SpencerForHire
12-02-2005, 11:56 PM
I have found Daze to be somewhat weak in alot of matchups besides crazy first turn plays, I have been considering the Shoal swap with Daze for a bit but I fear that Shoal is strictly too narrow for such a replacement.

Ridiculous Hat
12-03-2005, 12:04 AM
I have found Daze to be somewhat weak in alot of matchups besides crazy first turn plays, I have been considering the Shoal swap with Daze for a bit but I fear that Shoal is strictly too narrow for such a replacement.
Oh, I'm positive that Daze belongs in the deck-- just not necessarily in the goblins matchup. It's really great for any scenario in which you're the beatdown, which happens a lot of the time. Goblins, though, tends to play under-curve a lot of the time past turn 2 or so. If you're on the draw, sometimes Daze can just be completely dead in that matchup.

SpencerForHire
12-03-2005, 11:51 AM
That is why I have considered running an additonal Shoal over daze. Shoal is really (obviously) best versus Threshold and Goblins due to alot of low costed cards. Daze is great on turn 1-2 but Shoal seems to encompass a much longer gameplan which Threshold often seems to get into especially during the mirror.

Windux
12-04-2005, 02:15 PM
New Top8 from Germany:
GPT Lile in Düsseldorf

T8:
1. NQG/r (Marcel Schweitzer) (3-2 / 3-0)
2. NQG/w (Tim Sponagel) [kimberley?] ( 3-1-1 / 2-1 )
3. NQG/r (Tobias Henke) (3-2 / 1-1)
4. NQG/r (Tobias Fülhase (3-2 / 1-1)
5. NQG/r (Uwe Felten) (4-0-1 / 0-1)
6. NQG/w (Christian Wilczek) [Windux] (3-0-2 / 0-1)
7. Goblins (Johannes Mitsion) (3-0-2 / 0-1)
8. U/W Control (Hauke Harms) ( 3-2 / 0-1)

I reported the Decklsits at morphing.de and they will be on soon.
6 of 7 NQG made it into the Top8. 2 of them are NQG/w.

I Drawed Round 4 and 5 because i was 3-0 and self with 3-1-1 I had made Top8. In the Quarters I only played for Fun, because I allready had Byes.

My changes:
-3 SoH,-1 Shoal +4 AKs

I run good with that. One of the Reason are clearly they, that I have still 8 Canttrips and most of the Decks also played AKs.

Changes to test for Lile:
-1 Needles | In PreBoard Mirrors it really Sucks. If you got them, you name Fetch's to Screw your opponent or name Fledling Dragon to get a 2:1 Trade with a Burn for Enforcer.
You make your Preboard against Goblins worse, but it's still good enough. I'm really hope, all Play Goblins/w without Ports ;)

-1/2 Mages | Mirror again. You name in W-Mirrors the Beater, you got in Play or can't Counter the next 2-3 Rounds. And they are not that much sueful against Goblins or specific Combos.

+3 Mongoose | More "Big" Beaters. Its also better against Goblins and Hardcontrol.

- Shoals | Only good in the Lategame as an Hardcast Force, which costs more Mana.

SB:
1 Needle (Goblins, Mirrors, where your opponent plays Crypt)
3 P. Furnace | Not so fast like Crypt against Mirror, but it's also a Canttrip and on Long-Time it's better
2 Armaggeddon
1 Meddling Mage | For 3/4 Mages if you need them
2 BEB
1 Hydroblast
3 Tivadar's Crusade
2 Threeshold Supporter*

*We are testing some Cards for the GP Lile to make the Mirror much easier and to get handled against "Anti NQG Decks".
Results will follow soon.

SpencerForHire
12-04-2005, 02:33 PM
T8:
1. NQG/r (Marcel Schweitzer) (3-2 / 3-0)
2. NQG/w (Tim Sponagel) [kimberley?] ( 3-1-1 / 2-1 )
3. NQG/r (Tobias Henke) (3-2 / 1-1)
4. NQG/r (Tobias Fülhase (3-2 / 1-1)
5. NQG/r (Uwe Felten) (4-0-1 / 0-1)
6. NQG/w (Christian Wilczek) [Windux] (3-0-2 / 0-1)
7. Goblins (Johannes Mitsion) (3-0-2 / 0-1)
8. U/W Control (Hauke Harms) ( 3-2 / 0-1)
Does anyone else agree that Threshold is a terrible deck and is strictly inferior to Goblins. :)

These are great results and it is great to see that this deck is truly competitive.

It is also quite clear that despite less placings in the US, the red splash is just as good as the white.

troopatroop
12-04-2005, 02:42 PM
That top 8 is unbelievable.

7 NQG lists in the GP. 6 Top 8.

That's unheard of. Does this indicate that NQG is Tier 1?

t3h.sWaRm
12-04-2005, 04:18 PM
Wow that's just crazy. I think NQG was considered Tier 1 after GP Philly, but this just reinforces it.

I await the lists, though I can't imagine they'd be much different than the ones we already have.

Windux
12-04-2005, 04:33 PM
And now, i proudly present:
The Top8!

1. Platz
Marcel Schweitzer
Deckname: #w00t.Random

Mainboard (60):

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
3 Island

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Fledgling Dragon

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Fire / Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

Sideboard (15)
2 Winter Orb
4 Pyroclasm
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Stifle
2 Tormod's Crypt

2. Platz
Tim Sponagel

Mainboard (60):

4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island

4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Werebear
3 Mystic Enforcer

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Disrupting Shoal
2 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Portent
3 Predict
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Meddling Mage

Sideboard (15)
4 Hydroblast
1 Tivadar's Crusade
1 Meddling Mage
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
2 Stifle
3 Armageddon

3. Platz
Tobias Henke

Mainboard (60):

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear

2 Pyroclasm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fire / Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

Sideboard (15)
3 Naturalize
2 Stifle
2 Pyroclasm
2 Pithing Needle
3 Energy Flux
3 Tormod's Crypt

4. Platz
Tobias Fülhase

Mainboard (60):

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island
2 Wooded Foothills

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Fledgling Dragon

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Fire / Ice
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspel
3 Stifle

Sideboard (15)
4 Pyroclasm
2 Null Rod
3 Naturalize
2 Winter Orb
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt

5. Platz
Uwe Felten
Deckname: The Rock

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 City of Brass
4 Volcanic sland
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Islad

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Fledgling Dragon

4 Daze
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Fire / Ice
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mental Note
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions

Sideboard (15)
4 Pyroclasm
4 Naturalize
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Winter Orb

6. Platz
Christian Wilczek
Deckname: #w00t.'s Bye-Hilfe

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

4 Meddling Mage
4 Werebear
3 Mystic Enforcer

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Predict
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pithing Needle

Sideboard (15)
1 Stifle
3 Armageddon
2 Phyrexian Furnace
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Engineered Explosives

7. Platz
Johannes Mitsios

4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Sparksmith

4 Aether Vial

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
6 Moutain

Sideboard (15)
1 Pithing Needle
2 Price of Progress
3 Sulferic Vortex
4 Patron of the Akki
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Siege-Gang Commander

8. Platz
Hauke Harms

Maindeck (60)

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Mana Leak
2 Disrupting Shoal
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulatd Knowledge
2 Intuition
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Stifle
4 Exalted Angel
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Decree of Justice
1 Eternal Dragon
2 Veldalken Shackles

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
9 Island
3 Plains

Sideboard (15)

4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Wrath of God
3 Arcane Laboratory
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Tormod's Crypt


You know the reason, why im "only" Place 6 ;)

t3h.sWaRm
12-04-2005, 07:08 PM
What I find interesting is Tobias Henke's NQG/r with no Fledgeling Dragons. His kill is only Werebear and Nimble Mongoose which seems kind of low, but I guess it worked out for him well enough. Also, Marcel Schweitzer's list has 19 lands which is relatively high compared to all the others(17-18).

BTW nice job on your great finish.

SpencerForHire
12-04-2005, 07:40 PM
That top 8 is unbelievable.

7 NQG lists in the GP. 6 Top 8.

That's unheard of. Does this indicate that NQG is Tier 1?
Possibly better than goblins.

I think we should do a breakdown of all the top 8ing decks, remove their offcolor components and see what worked best overall towards the basic archetype to create an optimal list.

Bryant Cook
12-04-2005, 07:46 PM
Will this lead to Werebear's banning? :p The fact of the matter is the deck is solid as a whole, it's not built around 1 or 2 cards like most decks are. Most decks are weakened by needing certain cards, Landstill (Wrath), Solidarity ( hightide, reset), Wombat (humility), RGSA ( I don't know if this counts but survival), Dredge-a-tog (tog). This deck needs no certain card to deal with or answer anything, Gro has no card to rely on which may be a problem or a positive thing.

Vimes
12-04-2005, 08:07 PM
White NQG goes 50/50 with Goblins. Red NQG does better. Of course this deck is better than goblins!

In my experience, one of the defining cards of the mirror is Mental Note. Whoever plays it will get threshold faster than the opponent, and will control the game by putting the person who didn't run it on the ropes, and capitalizing on that advantage afterwards. Therefore, all NQG decks should start running Mental Note so none of them fall behind.

Also, red NQG should run more than the 4 Lightning Bolts used as replacement for Swords to Plowshares. The reason is that, versus white NQG, Meddling Mage has the potential to be the biggest problem card. If you only run the Bolts, and the first Meddling Mage names Bolt, then you're in trouble. However, if you run Fire/Ice or such, (I'd choose Fire/Ice because it doubles as a cantrip if you need it) you still can remove the Meddling Mage. Of course, white NQG could still counter, but red NQG's more aggressive strategy should not give white NQG the time to do so.

Time to face facts, red NQG is more aggressive than white NQG. Simply the fact that Meddling Mages are replaced by Nimble Mongeese show how the deck doesn't have the same controlling capacity, but is better at beating down. In my opinion, it would be best to embrace that and drop the Predicts or Accumulated Knowledges for the said burn.

My apologies for the long post, I lost cleanly to red Gro playing white Gro in the finals of a tournament and have spent a while analyzing how and why.

umbowta
12-04-2005, 09:35 PM
What I find really interesting, and satisfying, is the fact that several of those lists are packing the full compliment of Counterspells. I have been running 4 FoW, 4 Counterspell, and 3 Daze simply because I don't own Mages. So I hit cardshark up for a few Dragons and I'll make the switchover to UGr...especially if it has the advantage in the mirror.

BTW, how many players were in that GPT?

t3h.sWaRm
12-04-2005, 10:07 PM
I think it was 19. Not many people there but still, 6 out of 7 NQG decks made top 8. I wonder how many goblins showed up there though, is there a way of finding out?

I also find it interesting about the Counterspells. I have 2-3(switch off a lot) in my deck, but whenever I try and add a 4th one, it becomes bad. Most of the time I can't cast it. I think 2 is the right number but at times I wish I had more. The lack of Mages might warrant having 4, but without Mages I would definately switch to the URG version.

Bardo
12-05-2005, 12:54 AM
I think those results are cool as shit (the cool kind of shit, that is), but with only 19 players, let's not jump to absurd conclusions. It's a good deck, let just leave it at that.

A lot more testing will need to be done before we can reasonably conclude that UGr > UGw.

Anyway, congrats to all who placed well.

@ windux - Thanks for posting those lists.



Edited By bardo_trout on 1133758639

madness151
12-05-2005, 01:19 AM
Excuse me if this was answered earlier in the thread. Anyways, I'm thinking about running the UGR version of the deck. What should my sideboard strategy be against Survival Advantage? And what about goblins or Angel Stompy? I would guess that we can just race Angel Stompy. And with goblins, we'd side out Fledgling Dragon and Daze and side in 4 pyroclasm. Any thoughts?

Mulletus
12-05-2005, 01:54 AM
The best way to beat RGSA is when they never draw a red source of mana. I lost to the red splash version today... (my first match loss since round 14 of Philly...8-0-2) And the loss came to a a sub-par player (sorry wastedlife... you made more mistakes than you admitted to) Bottom line is I shouldn't have spent my round 1 bye in the bar..... that or I shouldn't have been so cockey and just cast creatures like I did in Philly. I tried to win via wish targets all three games... bad idea. If RGSA just casts blockers/beaters with one mana open.... it's bad for NQG. I haven't quite gained a fear for the deck, but it has raised an eyebrow.

Ridiculous Hat
12-05-2005, 04:11 AM
The best way to beat RGSA is when they never draw a red source of mana. I lost to the red splash version today... (my first match loss since round 14 of Philly...8-0-2) And the loss came to a a sub-par player (sorry wastedlife... you made more mistakes than you admitted to) Bottom line is I shouldn't have spent my round 1 bye in the bar..... that or I shouldn't have been so cockey and just cast creatures like I did in Philly. I tried to win via wish targets all three games... bad idea. If RGSA just casts blockers/beaters with one mana open.... it's bad for NQG. I haven't quite gained a fear for the deck, but it has raised an eyebrow.
Wish targets? What sort of build are you playing?

Anyways, in testing I haven't had a problem with RGSA. I just needle/mage survival and then counter or swords everything big. This is one of the matchups where I find the white splash to be significantly stronger than the red-- if you keep survival from getting active, you should win.

Bryant Cook
12-05-2005, 07:17 AM
The best way to beat RGSA is when they never draw a red source of mana. I lost to the red splash version today... (my first match loss since round 14 of Philly...8-0-2) And the loss came to a a sub-par player (sorry wastedlife... you made more mistakes than you admitted to) Bottom line is I shouldn't have spent my round 1 bye in the bar..... that or I shouldn't have been so cockey and just cast creatures like I did in Philly. I tried to win via wish targets all three games... bad idea. If RGSA just casts blockers/beaters with one mana open.... it's bad for NQG. I haven't quite gained a fear for the deck, but it has raised an eyebrow.
I made A mistake as in one. I played very carefully all day I know I played the match right there was A mistake. I'm a retard and forgot what to put ontop with magma jet, so I predicted and realized I'm a dumbass because I put bear the second card down not thinking what I put ontop of the bear is what hurt. Which gave me threshold which I was somewhat happy about, that's why. Having a 4/4 for 2 against a eck with big creatures too is huge. I boarded in Pyroclasm, Naturalize, and Furnace, against john pyroclasm worked as a wrath 3 times. Well you ran out of creatures games two and three so how would you of just played more? game 2 and 3 you didn't have survival until very late game.

Windux
12-05-2005, 08:59 AM
Wow much replies on my Post.
So here we go:
At First Marcel Schweitzer.
I made Marcel Schweitzer Decklist. I wrote the list via ICQ to a friend who have the biggest Cardpool at home. I wrote

"8 Fetch, 2 Island [OR 7 Fetch, 3 island]"

I think he missunderstood that ;)

Also I putted 2 Needles in the Deck, but we didn't had the Cards there, because some toke them to Luxemburg.
So he simply putted 2 Counterspell in it to get the Count up on Four.
But he said, he really was screwed often. I don't know why..maybe because he never used the Werebear as the 4th Manasource to cast a Dragon...saw that 2 Times ;)

Tobias Henke:
I think the Reason, to don't play 2 Dragons was, that he didn't have them ;) So he putted 2 Clasms in. Don't Know really, but I gonna ask him ;)


Mental Note:
I played Round 2 ,3 +4 Mirror (2 = Marcel Won, 3 = Tobias henke Won, 4 = Tim Sontagel ID but played out and Won)
I never lost, because my Opponent played Mental note for Threshold.
Simply, because you often Mill away Critters, Burn or Good Draw. I mean henke Did First Turn Mental note on Mongoose and Werebear. Not that good right? ;)

/w got much more CQ and also Canttrips/Draw and the better Solution. To put a Needle on Dragon is a 2:1 Trade. he needs Burn+ Dragon to kill your Enforcer. [2:2 at burn+Dragon vs. Needle+Forcer, 4:3 2 Burn, 2 Dragon vs. 2 Enforcer 1 needle and so on]

I didn't read your Hole Comments after my Post but i think its Interesting for you to know the exact Metagame+Player Totals:
Player 19
5 NQG/r
2 NQG/w
3 Goblins
2 High Tide
1 UWC (Hauke in the Top8. He Scooped against Tim because he allready Got Byes)
1 RW Aggroglide
1 Evil Grow (BGR Burn+Dryad+Duress+Confidant..2-1 Drop because of Birthday of his Brother)
1 Ying-Yang (Pikula Style)
1 UB RandomAggro
1 UW-Landstill
1 RW-Boros Burn

Vimes
12-05-2005, 10:36 AM
Milling yourself does not decrease the chances of drawing a certain card. Yes, it may mill away those cards you want, but it may also mill away chaff you don't want.

Caring about the cards you mill away is like looking at the top few cards of your library after you decide to mulligan; it does not mean the choice you made was right or wrong, because there was a chance involved before you knew what those cards were. Everyone can tell stories about how some player or other lost because they milled away cards they needed; what no one knows or remembers is how many times that player won because they milled away chaff to accelerate to their threats.

Brushwagg
12-05-2005, 08:54 PM
I have question on the UGB list posted on page one. I like it better then the other 2 (since I have all the cards -1 Underground). I got to thinking wouldn't Lim-Dul's Vault fit nicely into it? I replaced the A.K. with Predict, just beacuse without Intuition AK sucks. Also what other removale could be used instead of the Demise? I like that it cost 1 mana but it's just seems kinda meh. But I haven' t done testing yet so I can say for sure.

Getsickanddie
12-05-2005, 09:00 PM
The best way to beat RGSA is when they never draw a red source of mana. I lost to the red splash version today... (my first match loss since round 14 of Philly...8-0-2) And the loss came to a a sub-par player (sorry wastedlife... you made more mistakes than you admitted to) Bottom line is I shouldn't have spent my round 1 bye in the bar..... that or I shouldn't have been so cockey and just cast creatures like I did in Philly. I tried to win via wish targets all three games... bad idea. If RGSA just casts blockers/beaters with one mana open.... it's bad for NQG. I haven't quite gained a fear for the deck, but it has raised an eyebrow.
Yeah, then you lost to illusions-donate-belcher-brainfreeze.dec..............(maybe it's time to cut back on the sauce.)


In any case, I'm starting to believe that red may be the way to go with nqg, if only for the ability to play with pyroclasm to smash the hell out of goblins. Having magma jet to abuse predict with is also a lot more savage than I would have imagined.

dsg123456789
12-05-2005, 10:44 PM
As Getsickanddie mentioned, and as I said before (although I don't think anyone noticed), Magma Jet is savage with Predict. UGr Gro lists should not cut good cards (Predict) to run bad cards (Mental Note). Magma Jet is better removal than Fire/Ice because it is so incredibly awesome to set up every single Predict, so that UGr Gro outdraws its white counterpart (assuming no-one is running AK).

Also, Mental Note is a bad card for many reasons, but the one I would like to point out is the milling bit. Unlike many decks, decks based on the principle of running fewer "meaty" cards and running more cantrips in order to play as if they ran more "meaty cards" cannot afford to lose cards randomly, because in many cases you only run 2-3 copies of a card you need and want to cast during any given game. Normally, it would be okay to lose random cards, but in a deck designed to run fewer threats and answers and instead draw into them, you cannot afford the likely possibility of milling away a threat or counterspell that you didn't choose to lose (Because Predict just gets rid of a card that you decided you didn't need [because you wouldn't predict it away if you needed it]). Also, blind predicts happen maybe 5-10% of the time in UGr Gro (due to Magma Jet's awesomeness), and so you rarely blindly mill cards away like the shitty mental note does. That is why Mental Note is bad.

overlord95
12-05-2005, 11:12 PM
I have question on the UGB list posted on page one. I like it better then the other 2 (since I have all the cards -1 Underground). I got to thinking wouldn't Lim-Dul's Vault fit nicely into it? I replaced the A.K. with Predict, just beacuse without Intuition AK sucks. Also what other removale could be used instead of the Demise? I like that it cost 1 mana but it's just seems kinda meh. But I haven' t done testing yet so I can say for sure.
Well im glad to see other people playing my varient. I just wish more people would give it a shoot before decideing to play another varient.
@Lim-Dul's Vault: The thing about Vault is that it doesnt offer card paridy or card advantage making it a subpar md card choice compared to somthing that actually cantrips. If your looking for more library stacking effects to set up Predict look into Portent.
@other removal: theres an abundace of removal that black has to offer the deck. In my original I was running Echoing Decay which was fucking hot against goblins and decree tokens. But not so much against big fatties so it had to go. Other opitions are
Vendetta(this doesnt seem to stellar because of the life loss)
Diabloic Edict(not to hot against goblins)
Putrefy(I like the idea of this but the cost is a big deturrrent)
The biggest reason for my choice of removal is the goblins match up, the deck just needed more answer to the 1st turn lackey. But the removal is heavly depened on the meta game.

umbowta
12-05-2005, 11:34 PM
There's that whole ''first turn Lackey" problem coming up again. In my UGb, I have been playing Diabolic Edict in the Ghastly demise slot. Basically, I cant count on Ghastly Demise to work for the turn one lackey every time. Even if I happen to have it in my opening hand, I have to also have a fetch to pop to put a card in the grave and get U-sea. So I just prefer Edict. Yes, I allow for the chance of a shitty game one, but, when 4 E-Plagues enter for games 2 and 3, the match is almost gauranteed to be mine. I have actually considered maindecking 2 E-Plague. Thoughts?

Brushwagg
12-05-2005, 11:37 PM
@Overlord: The reason I was asking is because the Syracuse Meta is all messed up. There is always at least 2-3 mono-Black decks there, and Goblins aren't there every week. So I'm try out Diabolic Edict and Vendetta and let you know.

Bryant Cook
12-06-2005, 07:34 AM
@Overlord: The reason I was asking is because the Syracuse Meta is all messed up. There is always at least 2-3 mono-Black decks there, and Goblins aren't there every week. So I'm try out Diabolic Edict and Vendetta and let you know.
Just so you know vendetta says non-black. Also I agree with dsg123456789 I've been running predict and jet, although I did not cut fire/ice. my removal is
4 lightning bolt
4 fire/ice
3 magma jet

I've found that almost any aggro deck can't handle that, and if they arn't running aggro...TAKE IT TO THE DOME!

Nightmare
12-06-2005, 10:13 AM
Just as a reference point for people who are interested in the basics of the deck, there is an *ok* article on Londes.com today about Thresh. Here's the link: Londes Threshold Article (http://londes.com/article.php?id=729)

He's a little off on numbers, and his card choices are a bit iffy, but he at least has a grasp of the way the deck should work. It's a great starting point for people with no experience with the deck. I'm pretty sure I'll be posting in the boards to clarify a few things, feel free to as well.


Notes on the deck: What, other than it being 2 mana and sometimes weak, are the disadvantages of AK in your opinions? I have been running it since day 1, over other cantrippers such as Sleight, because I find that lategame, aside from Predict, the deck has no way to gain actual card advantage. In those situations, I would almost always rather just draw 3 than look at the top 2 and pick 1. Am I missing something?

Obfuscate Freely
12-06-2005, 11:23 AM
What you're missing is that Gro loses more games because it can't generate card quality advantage quickly enough in the early game than it loses because it can't gain pure card advantage in the lategame.

Really, by the time AK comes online (meaning you've drawn 3 or 4 of them), the game will often have been decided already, one way or the other.

Ridiculous Hat
12-06-2005, 11:40 AM
The late-game in the absolute should ideally not be reached with your general gro draw. The relative late-game is ideally a few turns before your average late-game control deck has stabilized. OF is right-- by the time you get to the point of AK mattering, the game is over. Very rarely will AK dig you out of a situation that you would otherwise lose in, and often enough AK will make your deck slower where you would otherwise win.

SpencerForHire
12-06-2005, 12:53 PM
Like I said on some other boards, AK is more explosive and less consistant, Predict is less explosive and more consistant. If you want to randomly win games you shouldn't go for AK, if you want to win because of skill over luck, go for Predict.

Bardo
12-06-2005, 01:55 PM
Like I said on some other boards, AK is more explosive and less consistant, Predict is less explosive and more consistant. If you want to randomly win games you shouldn't go for AK, if you want to win because of skill over luck, go for Predict.
That's funny; every instance of the word "Predict" I would replace with "AK" and vice versa. :) AK is more consistent, but less explosive, etc.

A few thoughts:

I'm not as squeemish about the late game as Hat here, for one. True, you don't have Fact to fill your hand, but with all of the land fetch and limited number of lands you're running, by the time you hit the 25th or so card in your library, you're drawing nothing but business or more cantrips (and less land in the deck) with which to find your business (i.e. beaters and counters). After a battle of attrition, with both you and your opponent trading one-for-one on threats/answers; you're in a much better position to stabilize and pull the game out.

True, Thresh doesn't have a similar endgame as Tog or MUC (one threat on the board and a fistfull of counters), but the outcome is the same.


(Ob Freely) What you're missing is that Gro loses more games because it can't generate card quality advantage quickly enough in the early game than it loses because it can't gain pure card advantage in the lategame.
Thresh doesn't rely on "true card advantage" but it's much better at drawing what it needs when it needs than something like MUC since all of the cards play have different structural roles depending on the game state. I tried to explain the polymorphous nature of the deck's elements in the beginning of the first post on page 1. It's one of the most subtle and easily overlooked mechanics of the of the deck. That is, Werebear is a mana elf, blocker, or beater depending on what you need. Cantrips are proxy lands, creatures, and removal. Fetchlands are basic lands, duals, Ancestral Recall (with Brainstorm), threshold builders, etc.

The peculiar advantage this deck has: it just draws better cards than its opponent. And this is true for a variety of reasons: less land -> more spells, more cantrips -> better topdecking, raw efficiency of threats/answers. So a classic application of card advantage misses what's really going on you're playing this deck.

And I don't mean to talk down or anything here, I know you know how to play this deck Ob Freely, I've lurked at The Source long enough to know that. I'm trying to explain the inner workings of the deck to those who just discovered this thing and want to know why it works.

@ Mr Nightmare. I thought that article sucked. :( It's like he just read my stuff at SCG and condensed them, and not well, I might add.

Re: Predict vs. AK. First off, I finally took the plunge and invested $1 for a set of Predicts. :) Man, is my wallet sore... You can even get them for $0.19 (http://prices.blackborder.com/cgi-bin/prices/card.cgi?sid=QOrDsyvBwC&cardid=9523) a piece at Blackborder.

Anyway, you don't need to draw AK 3-4 for them to be good. This was my misconception when I was building the deck a year ago. And to more reliably see AK 3-4 I was running 1-2 Merchant Scroll/Mystic Tutor to find those elusive buggers. Only later (like later winter/early spring) I realized that was unnecessary. True, AK1 is not an efficient use of your resources, but it's still not bad (not a stunning endorsement) in building threshold or having a blue card for FoW/DS/MisD. But AK2 is right on the money: draw 2 cards for 1U at instant speed. And of course, they just get better from there.

Predict requires more planning, cards, and time, lest you end up with a perpetual AK1 that just mills you a little bit everytime, unless you're lucky. But Predict is a poweful card that has a relevant effect in the deck. But first you rarely have a problem hitting threshold by turn 4-5 without Predict when you have 8 fetchies and 14-15 cantrips anyhow, so the whole "use it for threshold" is not all that compelling. But it's true that you can get the AK2-effect once the deck is up and running (since you have the mana to do so), though drawing into them with Serum Visions/Sleight isn't all that hot.

I'm still undecided, but I understand both sides of the argument. It just doesn't seem as cut and dry as many are making the argument seem.



Edited By bardo_trout on 1133898200

Nightmare
12-06-2005, 02:17 PM
Thats kind of my point, Trout. I'm still not clear about which cantrips to use, because I can see the pros and cons of both. Because of this, I'm using both. Just because it makes things easier, here is my list (it's not really much different from any other UGw)

Creatures
4x Werebear
4x Meddling Mage
3x Mystic Enforcer

Counters/Removal
4x FoW
3x Daze
3x Pithing Needle
2x Counter target Spell
4x Swords

Cantrips
4x Brainstorm
4x Serum Visions
4x Predict
4x AK

Land
4x Trop
4x Tundra
3x Windswept Heath
3x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Forest
1x Plains

The board is kinds of meta dependant, although Geddon, BEBs, Engineered Explosives, Mongeese, Naturalize, Sacred Ground, and Compost cycle.

My assertation is this: AK and predict are good together. I run 8 1mana cantrips, and 7 2mana draw spells. Unless something rare happens, I almost always mill my first AK into the yard with Predict. In fact, aside from situationally useless stuff like swords vs. Solidarity, it's the first card I would like to mill. Running both has made my draws incredibly smooth, and although I still have to test with Sleight, in testing the mirror I generally come out ahead because I can generate Real Card Advantage fairly easily. I have to assume this holds true in other control matchups as well. I guess thats the overall point. Do predict and AK need to be mutually exclusive? It seems like there is enough synergy between them that it would be worth running both.

@ the article. Yeah, I said it was *ok* mostly to be nice. Anyone who has read this thread knows way moer about the archetype than that guy anyway.

overlord95
12-06-2005, 02:19 PM
There's that whole ''first turn Lackey" problem coming up again. In my UGb, I have been playing Diabolic Edict in the Ghastly demise slot. Basically, I cant count on Ghastly Demise to work for the turn one lackey every time. Even if I happen to have it in my opening hand, I have to also have a fetch to pop to put a card in the grave and get U-sea. So I just prefer Edict. Yes, I allow for the chance of a shitty game one, but, when 4 E-Plagues enter for games 2 and 3, the match is almost gauranteed to be mine. I have actually considered maindecking 2 E-Plague. Thoughts?
I would think Edict would be even more unreliable in the fact that it cost 2. Demise gives you the chance to be on the draw and still have another answer to lackey. As opposed to Edict which only gives the answer to him if your on the play. Plus the whole targeting part of Demise is also HUGE in this matchup. As the game progresses Edict gets worse and worse with each passing turn due to the fact they are going to play more creatures. Me personally I would rather have a halfway decent game 1 with demise then a shitty game 1 with edcit.

Bardo
12-06-2005, 03:03 PM
(Mr Nightmare) My assertation is this: AK and predict are good together.
Not to throw a monkey-wrench into the gears here, but... Having too many 2cc cantrips compromises drawing out of one-land hands. And the playable 1-land hand phenomenon is the only reason I'm playing Sleight of Hand anyhow.

Here's my draw right now:
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
2 Sleight of Hand
2 Predict
4 Accumulated Knowledge

The Sleights lower the average cc of the deck and let you pull out of land-light position much better than AK/Predict.



Edited By bardo_trout on 1133895815

SpencerForHire
12-06-2005, 03:05 PM
Like I said on some other boards, AK is more explosive and less consistant, Predict is less explosive and more consistant. If you want to randomly win games you shouldn't go for AK, if you want to win because of skill over luck, go for Predict.
That's funny; every instance of the word "Predict" I would replace with "AK" and vice versa. :) AK is more consistent, but less explosive, etc.
And see, I have been getting bad results with AK, I'm not sure why ut Predict has always performed better for me.

Edit: Perhaps it is because I felt you have to run Mental Note and AK toghethor.

Edit2: I'm going to tinker around with draw a bit more.

Edit3: After some additional testing, it appears that Mental Note is explosive, not AK and the problem was the Mental Notes which I though were a necessity with AK. The deck is running smoother than it ever has without even one predict.

Nightmare
12-06-2005, 03:43 PM
[quote]Not to throw a monkey-wrench into the gears here, but... Having too many 2cc cantrips compromises drawing out of one-land hands. And the playable 1-land hand phenomenon is the only reason I'm playing Sleight of Hand anyhow.

Here's my draw right now:
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
2 Sleight of Hand
2 Predict
4 Accumulated Knowledge

The Sleights lower the average cc of the deck and let you pull out of land-light position much better than AK/Predict.
How many lands are you running in your build? I have 19, which may be why I don't really see 1 land hands very often. When I do, the chances are extremely high that I'll either draw the second by turn 2, or have/draw into one of the 8 1 mana dig spells. I think if I were to include more 1cc dig, I would do it in the same configuration you use, although it would then be in the air for me between Portent and Sleight.

In that discussion, does the ability to shuffle outweigh the wait to draw? or have we concluded that Portent is a bad Brainstorm, just like we did when Ice Age was released?

umbowta
12-06-2005, 05:44 PM
I would think Edict would be even more unreliable in the fact that it cost 2. Demise gives you the chance to be on the draw and still have another answer to lackey. As opposed to Edict which only gives the answer to him if your on the play. Plus the whole targeting part of Demise is also HUGE in this matchup. As the game progresses Edict gets worse and worse with each passing turn due to the fact they are going to play more creatures.I agree with you 100% on every point you made. I'm just willing to take that chance, it's 50/50 whether I'm on the play or not in game 1, and then bring in 4 BeB and 4 E-plague from the board.

Here's the deal. UGx is becoming more popular by the minute. In that matchup, the targeting of Ghastly Demise becomes a huge liablility which is more difficult to overcome through sideboarding. Diabolic Edict, on the other hand, is awesome in the mirror.

Bardo
12-06-2005, 06:25 PM
How many lands are you running in your build? I have 19, which may be why I don't really see 1 land hands very often. When I do, the chances are extremely high that I'll either draw the second by turn 2, or have/draw into one of the 8 1 mana dig spells.

In that discussion, does the ability to shuffle outweigh the wait to draw? or have we concluded that Portent is a bad Brainstorm, just like we did when Ice Age was released?
I'm running 18:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

If you're up to 8 2cc draw spells, then yes, I think 19 lands is correct; though I'm not sure 8 2cc draw spells is. Though I can't say that for certain.

re: Portent. It just seems inexcusably bad. A lot of times you need creatures and/or lands to play this turn, not next. And the benefits of Portent just don't outweigh that glaring downside.

Let me say this: you will lose some games* just because you (or someone else) is playing Portent. * Though it may not be a significant amount of games (~ 2%) because of the "I need [card x] this turn" problem.

re: Demise vs Edict in UGB. (1. Really, I'd rather just play Tog); 2. When I was tweaking removal slots in GAT a couple of weeks ago, I settled on Smother at the time, after testing Demise/Edict/Smother against many decks. Edict is too unpredicatable in the format right now (too many creatures) and Demise can't nail Confidant, Wretch, Hyppie, Psychatog, etc., etc. Smother kills all of these and more -- though it has its downside too. 3. In the end (i.e. today), I just yanked all of the targetted removal from GAT and am just running 3 Deeds. That's been the most stable configuration I've found, since all of those former removal slots made room for more draw and counters. Something to consider, for what it's worth.



Edited By bardo_trout on 1133908237

Brushwagg
12-06-2005, 08:57 PM
I would think Edict would be even more unreliable in the fact that it cost 2. Demise gives you the chance to be on the draw and still have another answer to lackey. As opposed to Edict which only gives the answer to him if your on the play. Plus the whole targeting part of Demise is also HUGE in this matchup. As the game progresses Edict gets worse and worse with each passing turn due to the fact they are going to play more creatures. Me personally I would rather have a halfway decent game 1 with demise then a shitty game 1 with edcit.


I thinking it here it all depends on what you see in your meta. More Goblins = Ghastly Demise or Smother, less Goblins = Diabolic Edict. I too was thinking about Deed, but the cost is kinda iffy, but I think it is worth to at least test. Another removal spell I thought about was Devour in Shadow, but I quickly dismissed it because of the BB casting cost :( . If it where 1B then it would be really hot.

Evil Roopey
12-06-2005, 09:30 PM
What about Omen in this deck? Seems like it might be kinda good. I don't know if it's better than Portent, but it's worth a shot is it not?

Slay
12-06-2005, 09:50 PM
Omen's probably worse than Telling Time excepting the occasion when you have a Predict and a single dead card in the top 3 cards. It's got a lot of bad stuff attached to it anyways, seeing as how it's a Sorcery.
-Slay

Ridiculous Hat
12-06-2005, 10:54 PM
Well, let me elaborate about the end-game. I don't feel that it should be reached, honestly, with a proper gro draw. I understand that sometimes it is a necessity, but gro always plays much better when you kill them before you get to the point of them having a million lands and being able to play whatever they want. However, if the proper role of beatdown is assumed for the majority of the game, when the late-game is reached the opponent will have expended all their immediately available resources to kill stuff and will hopefully be on a somewhat low life total. This is when gro is decent in the late-game, as you have much more setup and digging power.

The problem in the late-game is when your opponent hits a mass draw spell and you hit something that doesn't deal with it. If you draw a land and they draw a Fact or Fiction, they'll start chaining draw spells and you'll be down for the count. I am terrified of the late-game because your opponent can put you away with a single good topdeck and you generally cannot.

SpencerForHire
12-06-2005, 11:16 PM
Well, let me elaborate about the end-game. I don't feel that it should be reached, honestly, with a proper gro draw. I understand that sometimes it is a necessity, but gro always plays much better when you kill them before you get to the point of them having a million lands and being able to play whatever they want. However, if the proper role of beatdown is assumed for the majority of the game, when the late-game is reached the opponent will have expended all their immediately available resources to kill stuff and will hopefully be on a somewhat low life total. This is when gro is decent in the late-game, as you have much more setup and digging power.

The problem in the late-game is when your opponent hits a mass draw spell and you hit something that doesn't deal with it. If you draw a land and they draw a Fact or Fiction, they'll start chaining draw spells and you'll be down for the count. I am terrified of the late-game because your opponent can put you away with a single good topdeck and you generally cannot.
Then the solution seems obvious and you have already alluded if not directly said it.
Don't let them reach the late game.

Edit: What an anti-climatic 200th post.

Ridiculous Hat
12-06-2005, 11:56 PM
Well, let me elaborate about the end-game. I don't feel that it should be reached, honestly, with a proper gro draw. I understand that sometimes it is a necessity, but gro always plays much better when you kill them before you get to the point of them having a million lands and being able to play whatever they want. However, if the proper role of beatdown is assumed for the majority of the game, when the late-game is reached the opponent will have expended all their immediately available resources to kill stuff and will hopefully be on a somewhat low life total. This is when gro is decent in the late-game, as you have much more setup and digging power.

The problem in the late-game is when your opponent hits a mass draw spell and you hit something that doesn't deal with it. If you draw a land and they draw a Fact or Fiction, they'll start chaining draw spells and you'll be down for the count. I am terrified of the late-game because your opponent can put you away with a single good topdeck and you generally cannot.
Then the solution seems obvious and you have already alluded if not directly said it.
Don't let them reach the late game.

Edit: What an anti-climatic 200th post.
Exactly. Which I did say in the "how to play" section. And just now. :D

SpencerForHire
12-07-2005, 01:28 AM
This bring up an important thing about the white version that I realy enjoy, the ability to run Armageddon which resets the game status so your manabases are back in the early game (benefiting you).

Obfuscate Freely
12-07-2005, 06:10 AM
Winter Orb does the same thing, but it costs 2, is a permanent, and is often far less symmetrical if you play it well.

Bryant Cook
12-07-2005, 11:59 AM
For the U/G/r version of gro has anyone even tested thoughts of ruin? I know it's just a red geddon, but could it be better than Worb? I don't know it may be. The only problem I see is red gro needs its manabase. Thoughts please. On an end note Ak sucks.

SpencerForHire
12-07-2005, 12:18 PM
For the U/G/r version of gro has anyone even tested thoughts of ruin? I know it's just a red geddon, but could it be better than Worb? I don't know it may be. The only problem I see is red gro needs its manabase. Thoughts please. On an end note Ak sucks.
Thoughts of Ruin was mentioned over at TMD I'm not sure if it was mentioned here. As far as AK sucking please let me know why you think AK sucks. Just saying it sucks doesn't help us decided what to replace it with and why.

Ramirez777
12-07-2005, 02:31 PM
Rgrd. Mr. Nightmare's Post, Pg. 7:
I beleive, that Mr.Nightmare is taking the deck in the correct direction, and that black does not offer the best direction for the deck over all. Although, I beleive that the 4x Predict slot, that is included in his deck layout, should be removed for 2x Nimble Mongoose and 2x Intuition. My reasoning behind this decision, is that Nimble Mongoose offers a first turn answer to lackey, a much needed un-targetable beater, a lack of creature threats in deck, and that the deck doesn't need that many draw spells; while running off 18 mana sources. Intuition is a great asset to the deck, as it offers middle to late game consistency, bumps up the power of Accumulated Knowledge, and helps contribute to the over all threshold theme.
Also, I'm uncertain if it is best to run 4x Tundra and 3x Flooded Strands, or if it is more wise to play 3x Tundra and 4x Flooded Strands; which is the set-up I'm currently using.
Please offer any feedback, that can help "The Source", tighten up the U/W/G thresh deck.

I would also like to add that "Compost", is brilliant tech. against Black. I just ordered two for SB!

Bardo
12-07-2005, 02:54 PM
"The Source" can tighten its UWG Theshold decks by running 8 fetchlands. Simply, I do not understand why anyone would run less, unless they just haven't gone up to 8 yet. 8 lets you hit threshold much easier and is a good proxy for basic land where Wasteland is involved. Also more chances to Brainstorm + shuffle.


(Ramirez) Also, I'm uncertain if it is best to run 4x Tundra and 3x Flooded Strands, or if it is more wise to play 3x Tundra and 4x Flooded Strands; which is the set-up I'm currently using.
I believe you are correct.

My base again:

4 Flooded Strand -> Island, Plains, Trop, Tundra
2 Polluted Delta -> Island, Trop, Tundra
2 Windswept Heath -> Plains, Forest, Trop, Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

If Wasteland becomes less of an issue we can start adding back real duals, but until then, having the off-color basics (since all of our creatures are green, green/white, or white/blue) is pretty much required. Unless you're not running Meddling Mage; in which case the Plains can become a Tropical Island again.


(Gimbles) Edit: What an anti-climatic 200th post.
'Twas arse. :( / :;):



Edited By bardo_trout on 1133982109

SpencerForHire
12-07-2005, 04:44 PM
I really like the idea of 7-8 fetches. I am currently running 7 Fetches, 3 Trop/3 Tundra, 2 Island, 1 Forest and 1 Plains. 17 Land seems just right and it really helps if you aren't drawing up land in the late game. I can't honostly fit in that 8th fetch because I want to have lands that I can fetch with my Fetchies, and frankly I can see land hate wrecking Threshold if it isn't running many lands.

Bardo
12-07-2005, 05:50 PM
I was ambivalent about the 17 land versions when we weren't running two off-color basics, but now that just seems like an open taunt to the Gods of (colored) Mana Screw -- since now you only have 15 blue sources, and virtually less depending on the number of Heaths you're running and the incidence of Wasteland (i.e wasting a trop you fetch with heath, when you should have fetched a basic island, but couldn't).

SpencerForHire
12-07-2005, 06:13 PM
So your saying I should make room for one more blue source or that I should up my fetch count to 8?

Bardo
12-07-2005, 06:49 PM
Have you been testing against a lot decks with Wasteland? Over many games, how many times have you had to mulligan hands because you didn't have a blue source?

Anyway, I'm just reporting from personal experiece with this deck. If 17 lands w/ 2 non-blue basics are working for you, then play that configuration. Just be mindful of mana-related game losses and tweak accordingly.

Ridiculous Hat
12-07-2005, 07:28 PM
I personally have had no problems with 17 lands, 6 fetches, and 4 basics. The pithing needles help a lot, here.



Edited By Ridiculous Hat on 1133999868

Bardo
12-07-2005, 07:52 PM
4 off-color basics? Like 2 forests and 2 plains? Really? And I don't doubt that your deck runs fine; but to clarify my point: the deck runs optimally with the maximum (reasonably) number of fetchlands. 6 is good, but 8 is better. It's a threshold deck after all.



Edited By bardo_trout on 1133999556

Ridiculous Hat
12-07-2005, 07:57 PM
4 off-color basics? Like 2 forests and 2 plains? Really? And I don't doubt that your deck runs fine; but to clarify my point: the deck runs optimally with the maximum (reasonably) number of fetchlands. 6 is good, but 8 is better. It's a threshold deck after all.
Yes, it is a threshold deck, but you don't really need threshold until turn 3 or 4 and you're not going to get it until then if you're not running Mental Note. Just saying "the deck needs threshold" isn't enough of a reason for me to run that many fetches. The life is relevant and it's not really that hard for the deck to thresh-- the fewer actual lands against wasteland are enough of a reason for me not to go up to the full complement. If Wasteland starts seeing less play, I'll agree with you, but at the moment they're everywhere, and now Pikula has popularized sinkhole as well. More actual lands are almost a necessity.

Edit: Er, not 4 off-color basics, 4 basics. 1 plains 1 forest.



Edited By Ridiculous Hat on 1133999849

SpencerForHire
12-07-2005, 08:35 PM
That's what I was trying to say, although you don't really need more than 5 lands, you are going to want to have lands to spare if goblins is tapping you down or your opponent is trying to sinkhole your lands.
By the way, if I was knowingly going into a Pikula heavy area, I would run 4 Daze just to bounce my lands.
Edit: Or Life from the Loam.

Obfuscate Freely
12-07-2005, 08:38 PM
the deck runs optimally with the maximum (reasonably) number of fetchlands. 6 is good, but 8 is better. It's a threshold deck after all.
You're being unreasonably definitive here. 8 isn't the maximum number of fetches you could run. What makes you stop at 8, instead of 9, or 10, or more?

I agree with Gimbles that having lands to fetch with your fetchlands is important. My manabase:

3x Wooded Foothills
2x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta

3x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
3x Island
1x Forest

When I run Dragon, I actually cut a fetchland for the 4th Volcanic.

The duals cannot be cut because decreasing the number of actual color sources in the deck below 3 or 4 greatly increases the chance of Wasteland and other land destruction to completely cut you off from your splash colors.

The basics cannot be cut because they're needed to maintain a stable manabase in the face of Wasteland and other nonbasic hate.

It's also worth noting that drawing nothing but fetchlands can make Predict harder to use.

Stifle, the life loss, and Pithing Needle are other reasons not to run an inordinate amount of fetchlands.

I don't have any problems getting threshold reliably with "just" 6 or 7 fetchlands. Thus, I think the case against running more fetchlands is stronger than the case to do so.

Evil Roopey
12-08-2005, 02:33 AM
Against popular belief, I think that black is definatly the way to take this deck. Here is the list I have been running.

4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Sea Drake

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict
3 Diabolic Vision

4 Ghastly Demise
2 Smother

4 Force Of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
1 Counterspell

4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Swamp

sb 4 Engineered Plague
sb 3 Blue Elemental Blast
sb 2 Naturalize
sb 3 Duress
sb 3 Winter Orb

I think that Sea Drake is better than any other creature that red or black can offer. Mystic Enforcer is in his own league.

I have given up the rediculous card advantage and amazing late-game that black did have for a more aggro approach to the deck, which is the direction I think the deck needs to go. Diabolic Vision has been working wonderfully with Predict. I have not had any regrets about taking out AK and Whisper.

Thoughts?

SARCASTO
12-08-2005, 12:10 PM
Some thoughts on Black Threshold

I built black thresh a while ago, and didn't have much success with it. Some cards i might suggest are.

Reanimate: 1cc 1 life to get back a goose, 2 life to get back a bear, x life to get back some rediculus countered creature. I found this spell to be amazing at putting more threats on the table late game.

Lose Hope/Darkblast: These kill goblins, as well as mana dudes and both have good side benefits for the deck (card quality/ dredge for threshhold)

umbowta
12-08-2005, 12:28 PM
@ Evil Roopey

Despite the Sea Drake's uncommon status, the set it is in makes it extremely scarce. Even so, I like your list and I'll probably proxy the drakes and give it a try. I have even considered dropping Serendibs into this slot because of his resilience to lightning. Diabolic Vision is definitly something I had not considered. It sure makes Predict look a little sexier.


I'll agree with you, but at the moment they're everywhere, and now Pikula has popularized sinkhole as well. More actual lands are almost a necessity.
There are actually two people playing Deadguy Ale in my local now, and I just picked up the last Sinkhole I needed to complete the Beta playset, myself. Whether I try the deck or not...i dunno.


By the way, if I was knowingly going into a Pikula heavy area, I would run 4 Daze just to bounce my lands.
Edit: Or Life from the LoamI have been considering Life From the Loam for a couple of days now, for a couple of reasons.
1. I am in what seems to be a Deadguy Ale heavy meta.
2. Being kept off my tertiary color sucks
3. Life From the Loam is a threshold enabler. It can also, when combined with a draw spell, get you back to threshold in a hurry after a Crypt activation.
4. Lets you decrease the number of fetchlands and increase the number of "actual lands" you're running by allowing you to re-use your fetches.

So I am considering testing/running 2 copies in the maindeck, probably in the Predict slot.

overlord95
12-08-2005, 02:19 PM
Against popular belief, I think that black is definatly the way to take this deck. Here is the list I have been running.

4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Sea Drake

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict
3 Diabolic Vision

4 Ghastly Demise
2 Smother

4 Force Of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
1 Counterspell

4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Swamp

sb 4 Engineered Plague
sb 3 Blue Elemental Blast
sb 2 Naturalize
sb 3 Duress
sb 3 Winter Orb

I think that Sea Drake is better than any other creature that red or black can offer. Mystic Enforcer is in his own league.

I have given up the rediculous card advantage and amazing late-game that black did have for a more aggro approach to the deck, which is the direction I think the deck needs to go. Diabolic Vision has been working wonderfully with Predict. I have not had any regrets about taking out AK and Whisper.

Thoughts?
IMO one of the main reasons to play black grow over other varients is the draw engine and the fact that it can with stand the late game alittle better then its counterparts. Night's Whisper is simply to good to pass up. If you drop it you are simply better off playing red or white since both of these decks have more opitions and better stratiges when asssuming the aggro role. If you play black I think its just better to have a better late game plan then an early one. Also imo I think you are better off playing Portent over DV just for the fact that it allows you to keep 1 land hands alot more reliable and it gives you the ability to shuffle them away if there all bad.

Ramirez777
12-08-2005, 07:29 PM
I'm just going to pipe in and say, "What would you rather see beat an apponent mid-game, a Sea Drake, or Mystic Enforcer?" I think that simply answers the question, as to why white is better than black, for this deck. If you're trying to make a case for darkblast, white has swords; enough said. Night's Whisper is nice, but you're playing blue, why do you need another color for card drawing?
As far as the fetch land argument goes, I would say it would be wise to run no more than 7 fetch lands. Six or seven fetch lands have proved consistent enough for me in offering a great deck. I'm hearing that people are running a total of 17 mana sources in their decks, and I beleive that running a total of 18 mana sources is necessary for deck consistancy. Cause I'll be darned, no matter how cool the cards in your hand look, if atleast one of them isn't mana, your gonna be in for a harder game.
Dead Guy's Ale is a hard match up for this deck, despite what you'd think. Do to its Land Destruction, and the Dark Confidant, you're going to be in for a rough ride. Counter the LD & Confidant, and you might have a chance at winning. Use pithing needle to name Wasteland, and hope for the best. I think we should discuss this match up a littile more, cause it takes this deck for a rough, and often downhill ride.
I'm reaching the beleif, that as far as U/W/G Thresh. is concerned, we have reached the pinacle of its concept. The only debatable facet currently is the SB; which at the moment is great! Not to mention that U/W/B Thresh. isn't going to offer as consistant SB'ing options for this type of deck; unless some one discovers some hidden tech.
Thats all I really have to add to the discussion at the moment, and I hope I helped and didn't hurt some feelings.

Zilla
12-08-2005, 07:39 PM
Reanimate: 1cc 1 life to get back a goose, 2 life to get back a bear, x life to get back some rediculus countered creature. I found this spell to be amazing at putting more threats on the table late game.
Um. Unearth? Same thing but it doesn't cost you any life and cantrips in the early game. You can't get a Sea Drake with it, but it gets 8 out of 10-11 of your creatures back.

EDIT: Scratch that. It costs no life, cantrips in the early game, and gets all of your creatures back.

Brushwagg
12-08-2005, 07:55 PM
@Everyone not playing Black: Can't you please just STFU regaurding Black in thresh. Just because some of us like to do things differently, doesn't mean that you need to keep saying that "Black is bad for this deck". If you don't want to use Black, then DON'T. It's almost getting to the point that I want to start a new thread just to discuss the UGB version.

@Deadguy Ale/Jack Black: Both of these decks are really bad match-ups. They have a good mix of LD, discard, creature kill, and card drawing to be very problematic. I think we need to think up a good game plan when playing these types of decks.

@Zilla:Good call on Unearth.

Mad Zur
12-08-2005, 07:57 PM
I'm just going to pipe in and say, "What would you rather see beat an apponent mid-game, a Sea Drake, or Mystic Enforcer?" I think that simply answers the question, as to why white is better than black, for this deck.
If that were a valid argument, U/G/r would be superior to both because I would rather see a Fledgling Dragon beating the opponent than a Mystic Enforcer.

Both statements ignore the difficulties of actually getting the thing to beat your opponent.

Um. Unearth? Same thing but it doesn't cost you any life and cantrips in the early game. You can't get a Sea Drake with it
Sure you can.

Unearth (http://magiccards.info/ul/en/72/)
Sea Drake (http://magiccards.info/po2/en/45/)

Zilla
12-08-2005, 08:29 PM
Sure you can.
LAWL. I thought it cost 4 for some reason.

Ramirez777
12-08-2005, 08:54 PM
Re: Mad Zur's Comment.

I can see the benefit of the U/G/R version of the deck, and I'm not saying that Fledgling Dragon is a bad card. I personally beleive that Mystic Enforcer is still better. They both become only worth while only after you've reached Threshold. Now, at that point both creatures have flying, true Fledgling Dragon is pumpable, but in this type of deck where mana sources are few and far between, it can be difficult to use the R: +1/0 UEOT ability. On the other hand Mystic enforcer becomes a 6/6 flyer pro-black, instead of a 5/5; for the same mana cost. After an analysis between the two cards alone, I still come to the conclusion that Mystic Enforcer is more powerfull.

Brushwagg
12-08-2005, 09:06 PM
@Unearth:I'm liking it. Just finding the space might become an issue. I guess you could possibly go -1 Night's Whispers, -1 Serum Vision, -1 ??? This could give the Black version an even better late game, and still go Aggro early and not worry to much if some creatures bite it early. Beacuse that is one big problem with all the versions, no way to bring stuff back.

Bryant Cook
12-08-2005, 09:30 PM
There is no need to run recursion, you run 11 win conditions. If a person can't get the job done with 11 win conditions there is a problem. As for Dragon V. Enforcer dragon is simply better being able to pump. I have won so many games in testing due to dragon being able to pump. When you cast dragon you will always be able to make it a 7/5 which IMHO is better than a 6/6 as for going aggro. Being able to fit in extra damage does matter. Which is another reason to run red, it's removal is NEVER dead. You can always go straight to the nugget.

Sad Alien
12-08-2005, 10:34 PM
wastedlife Posted on Dec. 08 2005,8:30
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is no need to run recursion, you run 11 win conditions. If a person can't get the job done with 11 win conditions there is a problem.

Word. With a decklist as tight as this, running recursion seems like a crutch for bad play. Something akin to how Pulse of the Fields was used in Landstill. Why waste slots running suboptimal cards when you can just practice a bit more?

I also echo everying said about Fledgling Dragon being better than Mystic Enforcer. We arent playing these dudes to block and the Dragon will always attack for at least 7.

Ridiculous Hat
12-09-2005, 12:56 AM
I will just mention that UGb hasn't had any tournament results as of late and this is the DTB forum. If people choose to keep discussing it, I don't care, I just have no input on it. Also, if the UGb build needs to run Unearth, I don't think that it's really competetive-- 11 win conditions should be more than enough.

Evil Roopey
12-09-2005, 01:32 AM
First of all, Unearth doesn't seem horrible, but it also doesn't seem optimal. Second, don't bash on the black version until you test it because obviously most of you haven't.

I like the black version over red for a few reasons. The list is almost identacle to what Alix is running.

-4 Demise
-2 Smother
-3 Diabolic Vision
+4 Lightning Bolt
+2 Counterspell
+3 Portent

That is the difference. I think the removal is better and Portent is weak compared to Vision.

@Alix- In testing the counterspells were dead most of the time, I think if you cut 2 for Magma Jets your list would improve greatly.

Roop

EDIT:

Despite the Sea Drake's uncommon status, the set it is in makes it extremely scarce.
I found a sight that actually has multiple Drakes. trollandtoad.com. I already have my set coming in the mail. If anyone is interested they have 5 left.

Vimes
12-09-2005, 08:17 AM
@Deadguy Ale/Jack Black: Both of these decks are really bad match-ups. They have a good mix of LD, discard, creature kill, and card drawing to be very problematic. I think we need to think up a good game plan when playing these types of decks.
You're kidding me, right? Deadguy's only creature kill pre-board is Vindicate, which I can just name with Meddling Mage playing UGw.
They have never successfully kept me off a certain color, and Mystic Enforcer is GG pre-board. And if you have Nimble Mongeese in the side or in the main if you're not playing UGw, Mongeese are just mini-Enforcers.

Nightmare
12-09-2005, 09:31 AM
@Deadguy Ale/Jack Black: Both of these decks are really bad match-ups. They have a good mix of LD, discard, creature kill, and card drawing to be very problematic. I think we need to think up a good game plan when playing these types of decks.
You're kidding me, right? Deadguy's only creature kill pre-board is Vindicate, which I can just name with Meddling Mage playing UGw.
They have never successfully kept me off a certain color, and Mystic Enforcer is GG pre-board. And if you have Nimble Mongeese in the side or in the main if you're not playing UGw, Mongeese are just mini-Enforcers.
What he said. And if it really becomes an issue (Everyone in Syracuse is a sheep, and running Black, be it sui or Deadguy)(Come back Team Sexy, I need competition) just run Compost in the board and smash them with your uber card advantage.

SpencerForHire
12-09-2005, 01:35 PM
I wouldn't chock up the BW matchup to be a piece of cake. You have to remember that they have ways to remove your threshold and Threshold does have the weakess manabase of any of the top tier decks. If BW hasn't kept you off a color I seriously question the person you were playtesting against knowledge and experience with the BW deck.

BW has a number of things that can just wreck you. Black is inherently good at killing creatures, protection, untargetability or not. It is inherently good at hosting your graveyard which keeps your threats minimal strength, and it destroys your other two good resources (hand and land) which are both wrecked when set to zero.

Bardo
12-09-2005, 01:55 PM
I'd like to echo Ridiculous Hat's statements: while it was mentioned in the original post and I've talked about it in a few posts since, I don't believe the UGb decks should be discussed at length in the LMF. It hasn't put up any meaningful tournament results, let alone consistent results, to be discussed in this thread. It seems more of a discussion for the Open Forum.



Edited By bardo_trout on 1134150973

Ridiculous Hat
12-09-2005, 02:09 PM
BW has a number of things that can just wreck you. Black is inherently good at killing creatures, protection, untargetability or not. It is inherently good at hosing your graveyard which keeps your threats minimal strength, and it destroys your other two good resources (hand and land) which are both wrecked when set to zero.
It's not relevant what the color can do, it's relevant what the deck can do. Look at the list. The deck has 0 ways to kill a nimble mongoose outside of combat and only 4 post-board to kill a mystic enforcer. You cannot talk about what a color is "inherently good at doing"-- that's completely irrelevant. What IS relevant is what the deck is actually playing. Let's take a look at it.

4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Tainted Field
4 Scrubland
10 Swamp

4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Ritual
2 Engineered Plague
2 Cursed Scroll

Sideboard
2 Engineered Plague
4 Withered Wretch
2 Darkblast
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pithing Needle
2 Phyrexian Negator

I agree that on paper this is a bad matchup... but if you Pithing Needle Wasteland, they only have 8 spells maindeck which can destroy lands. You have dazes which effectively counter them plus counters of your own. They have discard, which is admittedly problematic, but you play so few lands that you probably topdeck better than they do. Post-board Withered Wretch is obviously a problem, but you can probably find some way to remove it, and engineered explosives is probably insane out of the board here-- or the bomby compost.

I'm not saying this deck is a good matchup, but I think it's better than you say it is, and the way you structure your argument it seems like you base it entirely in theory.

SpencerForHire
12-09-2005, 02:40 PM
Don't get me wrong, I have tested this matchup. Pithing Needle against Wasteland is hot and I'll admit I haven't done that much. But they do still have 8 ways to hit your land (or less if they target creatures). They do however have quite a few ways to hit your hand quick and that means less opportunities to pithing needle. They can also run Pithing Needle post board which could be problematic for you, naming Flooded Strand early is a big issue for this deck. Smart players will be running Perish which is just going to mean they are running 2-4 Plague Winds against you and that is never good. Their proactive disruption is superior to reactive disruption.
It is also possible for builds to start running Edicts and other solutions which can deal with untargetables which otherwise would be a problem for BW. Let's assume that the deck will evolve to deal with Threshold more directly than it's current list which doesn't.
I don't say this is an auto-loss by any extent but it isn't a good matchup by any stretch of the imagination either.

Vimes
12-09-2005, 04:48 PM
Well, we swap out Compost in the board for Lifeforce. Really, I don't see what the big deal is. When they adapt, we can easily adapt back. They have their discard, we have Daze and Force of Will. If they board in Disenchant, well, we have counters that we can use for Disenchant or Perish. At a certain point, if they dedicate too much Gro hate to the board, or it disrupts their strategy too much, we'll just win. If this becomes a concern, we can deal with it. But it's not a concern now, so don't be saying that we have to deal with a deck that doesn't exist, or at least yet.

Ridiculous Hat
12-09-2005, 05:09 PM
I can understand why BW would add some gro hate, but I seriously doubt that the matchup that's probably already favorable for them will lead to them adding significantly more hate. I wouldn't be surprised to see Perishes or Furnaces, but I don't expect that much more out of them.

Ramirez777
12-09-2005, 05:22 PM
Re Vimes' Post:

While I agree that green has some excellent hate against black, I find it hard to beleive you've tested the match up throughly. Your generalization of how easy it is to over come their black hate, makes it sound like an easy match up. I completely agree with Gimbles' analysis of the deck. Pre boarding I would say the win is in their favor 60/40. Post boarding I would say it is probably about 50/50; depending on what they run in their side board. Planar Void & Wretch can give your deck a heavy migrane. Compost appears to be an unexpected SB'ing into U/W/G thresh, and should have enough impact to win g2 or g3, before they know whats hit them. Needle their waste lands, and hope for the best. I will continue to test the match-up, & God bless "Daze"!

Zilla
12-09-2005, 07:49 PM
I'd like to echo Ridiculous Hat's statements: while it was mentioned in the original post and I've talked about it in a few posts since, I don't believe the UGb decks should be discussed at length in the LMF. It hasn't put up any meaningful tournament results, let alone consistent results, to be discussed in this thread. It seems more of a discussion for the Open Forum.
MOD'S NOTE:

Agreed on all counts except one. The black discussion is diluting the thread, so we're going to seperate the discussions so that the black build can get the focus it deserves. Further discussion of it here will be moderated. Someone with reasonably extensive experience with the black splash, please start a new thread for it in the Developmental Forum. Bardo, please remove references to the black splash in the opening post, and repost it in the new thread, if you feel so inclined.

SpencerForHire
12-09-2005, 10:34 PM
I'll end the my arguing on the debate of the Threshold vs BW matchup with one true statement. Perish is what they will have in the board. This means that the Red splash will have a slightly bigger advantage with it's Fledgling Dragons and Meddling Mage will be the advantage in white. Mystic Enforcer/Nimble Mongoose aren't as big a problem game 2-3.

As for 50/50 after sideboarding, I agree with that statement if the BW deck is running Perish. If it isn't the matchup probably is actually in Thresholds favor.

Bryant Cook
12-12-2005, 12:55 AM
Today I piloted the deck into "top 7" at win Ed Fears Lotus. I ran the U/G/r version of the deck and went 4-1-1. More to come later, I'm a little busy.

Edit: link to tournament report http://mtgthesource.com/cgi-bin....#entry1 (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1751)

Lego
12-13-2005, 11:30 AM
I've been playing the deck in Sicily, and where I live the Legacy metagame doesn't exist, but with the testing I've been doing, because both Pikula and Thresh are such skill intensive decks, the win usually goes to the better player. That was an unnecessarily long sentence. But seriously, any edge on the play skill will tip this match. I have yet to test it between two equally good players, so I can't offer any more than that.

I've been playing the White splash without Meddling Mage, because that's how I roll, and decided Nimble Mongoose was more fun (unnecessary aside: he's my second favorite creature after Goblin Legionnairre). I would sideboard him, but I only have one.

My big question is this: is there any reason to *not* run a splash? I feel like the deck might be able to support the inclusion of Wasteland if a splash is avoided, and might allow for a much more consistant manabase, but is that worth losing the removal?

Nightmare
12-13-2005, 12:05 PM
...but is that worth losing the removal?
Short Answer: No.

Long Answer: No, because of a few factors.

First and foremost, the removal is 100% necessary, no matter how small in number it is. Without it, you lose to Goblins, 100% of the time. With it, you can outplay them, and make the matchup much, much better. Goblins isn't the only deck this applies to.

Second, the splash allows you to run huge frigging guys, which means there's a higher chance of you winning in a couple swings. This is part of the deck's main gameplan, and losing the splash means losing the gameplan. Be it white or red, your huge guy is in your splash color. Even Sea Drake is small comparatively.

Third, in working on Turboland, Di and I have both come to the conclusion that U/G just doesn't have the necessary tools to compete in the meta right now. He has splashed red in Turboland, mostly for removal (who'd have thought you'd need it?), while I quit for a while to work on Gro, which splashes White for removal (again, who knew?). U/G Madness is not viable now because it lacks strong removal. U/G Threshold runs (comparatively) less fat, worse counters, and just as bad removal. The real question to ask yourself should be, "is there any reason you shouldn't splash for the third color?" Aside from the manabase, which you can work around (hooray for Sacred Ground and Pithing Needle), the answer is no.

Final note: Invest in Meddling Mages. Even from the board, they're nuts. Making combo scoop on turn 3 is hawt.

Ridiculous Hat
12-13-2005, 02:06 PM
Nightmare covered it. There is a reason the original UG gro in old extended faded away-- you do have some options like Waterfront Bouncer, Withdraw and Legacy's Allure to help if you want to go back to the deck's original roots, but you no longer have Gush to refuel and Dryad just isn't as strong as it used to be. Plus, goblins has gotten a lot better from when extended was all about trix. I think it's pretty much necessary to have a third color.

Zilla
12-13-2005, 07:38 PM
In theory you have Jitte as a removal option, but with only 10-12 maindecked threats, 4 of which can't be targeted, that's probably a bad gameplan. In short, I echo what Nightmare already said. This is the same reason that UG Madness isn't particularly viable at the moment. No matter how fast and fat your beatsticks might be, they're not going to get the job done without some removal to clear the way.

Lego
12-14-2005, 07:45 AM
Thanks guys. I was pretty sure it was not a good idea, I just needed someone to explain it. Thinking about it last night, I realized that the only thing you gain is possibly the use of Wastelands, and I thought about matchups where that would help. It basically doesn't shore up any difficult matchups the deck has, and createst problems with many close matchups.

@ Meddling Mage: if I do invest in three more, would you recommend keeping them relegated to the side in favor of Nimble Mongoose (who is another turn one answer to Goblin Lackey) or put them in the main, and get rid of Mongoose all together (or maybe keep them in the side?). I love Mongoose, but I think the question is probably a metagame one. If you see more Goblins and other Aggro (and maybe Red Burn?) keep in the Mongooses, if you see more Control and Combo, put in the Meddling Mage. Is that a correct assessment?

Nightmare
12-14-2005, 10:10 AM
It's a fair one, for sure. Personally, I run Mage main, with 4x Mongoose boarded, and frequently switch them in and out. In my meta, Goblins is a declining presence, and as such, I much prefer the versatality of Mage in game 1. Of course, my build is a much more proactive control build, running Mage and Needle both main. If I need more threat density, Goose comes in for cantrips, if Mage is irrelevant (vs. Gobs, for instance) Goose comes in for Mage.

I believe that this strategy is integral for the W splash, but I think that which creature is main and which is boarded is a metagame decision.

Ridiculous Hat
12-14-2005, 11:53 AM
It's a fair one, for sure. Personally, I run Mage main, with 4x Mongoose boarded, and frequently switch them in and out. In my meta, Goblins is a declining presence, and as such, I much prefer the versatality of Mage in game 1. Of course, my build is a much more proactive control build, running Mage and Needle both main. If I need more threat density, Goose comes in for cantrips, if Mage is irrelevant (vs. Gobs, for instance) Goose comes in for Mage.

I believe that this strategy is integral for the W splash, but I think that which creature is main and which is boarded is a metagame decision.
Listen to this guy. This guy knows what's up. Maybe I'm biased because he's arrived at a list very close to mine... but hey, it works. :D

Windux
12-14-2005, 12:01 PM
Im playing 3 Needles and 2 Mages Main/SB (4 at all).
I Also running 3 Mongoose Main.

The Reason for 2/2 Mages: Preboard they can suck, but they also can give you Time (Combo). I Don't want to Run more then 2 in My Side, taking places, where i Could run Other Cards. And if you Draw a Mage against Goblins, they're don't useless (if Vial isn't active/in Play). naming Ringleader or Something CAN Hit a handcard of your opponent and the mage can Chumpblock also (Surviving a Lackey, Matron, Token. killing Warchief, Ringleader, SGE...all other then Piledriver!).

Against Mirror, you just need to name a Creature, who are in Play on your Side (e.g. if you Got a Mongoose, Say Werebear so he can't drop a Bear to kill your Mongoose. Againt Red you Naming Dragon if you got an Enforcer out etc.).
Maybe it's useful to cut away removal from your Opponent (Also, when it hits 1-2 StoP on your Side, which you can't Play anymore).

I Feel really Fine with it.

SpencerForHire
12-14-2005, 12:16 PM
I am tempted to cut down on the maindeck Needles. They have been working really well and are completely elite against Ports and Wastes however they just seem like dead solutions when you're trying to bounce back.
The thought process is: If you are winning Pithing Needle seals the deal. If you are losing than a good 70% of the time Pithing needle is not a card you want to see. The other arguement in my own mind is that Pithing Needle prevents them from completely beating you and starts the tempo for bouncing back (naming Cursed Scroll/Nantuko in BW || Naming Waste, Port or Vial in Gobbos).
These cards seem to be more dead than good in the mirror (with the exception of Fledgling) and against MWC.
Mage however is good against every deck which has proven him worthy time and time again. Mage can deal with every matchup with almost the same efficiency and in general is just a great play.
I too run the Mongooses boarded and just run them in place of Pithing Needles in certain matchups and Mages in others. This is all dependant on what I am facing and what little things are in their deck (tech).

Windux
12-14-2005, 12:32 PM
Against MWC, Needle isn't a bad Card. Naming Dragon or Decree can be useful. If Humility is in play, he can't easily Cycle Decree to kill all your creatures.
Needle a Dragon can give you a Turn, where he can't find a land (ok, they're running lands without end, but.. ;) ) or prevents you from a recursed Dragon.

You're right. Against Mirror really sucks. Maybe, if you got it first/second turn, on a Fetch which you don't play often (or fetched already) and against Fledling (against the "Block Enforcer, pump!" move).
After Boarding it's !maybe! good against Furnace/Crypt in the last Game, if you know, which Gravehate he uses.

But it's so damn good against Goblins, YingYang, SalvagerCombo (Postboarding you have to deal with 2 DCSC)and many random Stuff (Jitte, Swords of..., Waterfront Bouncer, Grim Lavamancer, Cursed Scroll, SotF, Welder blablabla).

Ridiculous Hat
12-14-2005, 01:11 PM
I am tempted to cut down on the maindeck Needles. They have been working really well and are completely elite against Ports and Wastes however they just seem like dead solutions when you're trying to bounce back.
The thought process is: If you are winning Pithing Needle seals the deal. If you are losing than a good 70% of the time Pithing needle is not a card you want to see. The other arguement in my own mind is that Pithing Needle prevents them from completely beating you and starts the tempo for bouncing back (naming Cursed Scroll/Nantuko in BW || Naming Waste, Port or Vial in Gobbos).
These cards seem to be more dead than good in the mirror (with the exception of Fledgling) and against MWC.
Mage however is good against every deck which has proven him worthy time and time again. Mage can deal with every matchup with almost the same efficiency and in general is just a great play.
I too run the Mongooses boarded and just run them in place of Pithing Needles in certain matchups and Mages in others. This is all dependant on what I am facing and what little things are in their deck (tech).
Needle is important enough to name against Dragon or Decree in the MWC matchup. Against Landstill, naming Wasteland is obviously important and naming Factory can completely cripple any "offense" or defense they have to resolved ground creatures. Against Goblins and Survival the application is obvious, and against Pikula you name Wasteland, Shade, or Scroll. Really, I think the only matchups Needle is actually bad in are the combo matchups, which conveniently you beat anyways.

B is for Big Job
12-14-2005, 01:32 PM
I would have to agree. If needle takes out that many threats in that many match-ups, theres no reason I could see to not have 4 maindeck just for the sheer control it causes.

Lego
12-14-2005, 02:12 PM
@ Pithing Needle: Would you really go to 4 maindeck?

I play a pretty standard list (based mostly on Bardot's list), 14 cantrips, 10 counters, 11 creatures, 18 land, and 4 swords. That leaves 3 slots, which I have as 2 Pithing Needle, 1 Engineered Explosive, but I have yet to test the Needles. I like them over Disenchant (which used to take their place), because they're much more proactive, and I often found Disenchant dead.

I feel like the maindeck is really tight right now, and most changes that would be made would be fairly incidental. I like it when decks feel like that.

Random side note: Why do I hate it so much when people call it YingYang?

Ridiculous Hat
12-14-2005, 02:50 PM
I was always happy with 3 needles-- I don't see 4 as being necessary as you very rarely need more than one and gro is generally pretty able to find a couple considering the nature of the deck. Digging is very rarely an issue.

Nightmare
12-14-2005, 05:09 PM
As a side comment, although it has been mentioned before, Naturalize is strictly better than Disenchant in this deck.

t3h.sWaRm
12-14-2005, 07:25 PM
Could I get an explanation on why that is so? Is it because you get G more often than W?

Zilla
12-14-2005, 09:23 PM
Could I get an explanation on why that is so? Is it because you get G more often than W?
Yes. Werebear produces green and not white.

Kadishack
12-14-2005, 09:48 PM
Also we do not need disenchant because of the lack of Dryad which it combos with. I still like Md naturalize because of all the good artifacts in the format at the moment. But hey I have been running this deck since Ian won and I have the 4 AK main still and find them some good.

Also, I believe that Furnace is the best answer for the mirror other than needle(which messes furnace up) which should be sided out in the mirror.

Personally I only like needle in the side because it can be very dead in some matchups I would rather have an Ak or something else. :D

SpencerForHire
12-14-2005, 10:06 PM
What seems very relevant to me at least is the fact that you can Needle fetches. If nothing else you can wreck someones tempo and put you up to pace with them. I don't think there is a single deck that is immune to needle and I find myself calculating the perfect time to drop it in every matchup. It is a great card, it just doesn't save you if you don't drop it preemptively to the card you are going to hate out getting active.

Kadishack
12-14-2005, 10:12 PM
But it also goes against gro's concept. Getting cards in the yard, sure it shuts your opponents cards down somewhat but it is a permanent that doesnt bash face. would rather have naturalize to kill a humilty or something and naturalize will go to the yard... Good

Bryant Cook
12-14-2005, 10:24 PM
I'm with kadilak on this, I don't believe you shouldn't be running pithing needle in the MD to begin with. You should also not be running white, for so many reasons. Which have been stated already in the thread, So I won't repeat them. I disagree on naturalize MD though especially with stifle in your MD deck. IMHO it's either naturalize or stifle and stifle tends to be more handy, screwing up opponents tempo. What artifacts and enchantments does gro fear game 1? I will agree on kadilak with one more thing. Furnace should start appearing in more SB's due to the mirror match now. I've been running furnace since I started running the deck a 3 weeks ago. Yeah I know 3 weeks wooohoo, but I did top 7 at rochester.

Ridiculous Hat
12-14-2005, 10:35 PM
But it also goes against gro's concept. Getting cards in the yard, sure it shuts your opponents cards down somewhat but it is a permanent that doesnt bash face. would rather have naturalize to kill a humilty or something and naturalize will go to the yard... Good
This is not a threshold/cantrip theme deck. We play good cards that don't cost very much and a lot of cantrips-- that's it. Pithing Needle qualifies here and shutting down wasteland makes the deck work. Here's my logic--

If everyone's lands only produce mana, you have the most efficient threats and disruption at the table.

Does that seem accurate enough? I see no problem with playing a proactive disruption card that shuts down problems for the deck and ways for other decks to deal with your cheap threats. Sign me up.

Wastedlife, I fully respect your accomplishments with Gro but don't let your recent successes intrude in the way of good logic. The best players will prove their points without just saying "I did this, did you?" This is why I say that Obfuscate Freely and MadZur are some of the better theorists about this deck, regardless of any tournament performances they may have. You can tell if people know what they're talking about by what they say, not what they do. I'd say the arguments have been pretty well outlined for playing white over red, and I'd also say that it's pretty ridiculous to claim that white is not playable. You've had some success with red, for sure, but don't discount the entire history and recent premier event performances of the deck, please.

Bryant Cook
12-14-2005, 10:43 PM
But it also goes against gro's concept. Getting cards in the yard, sure it shuts your opponents cards down somewhat but it is a permanent that doesnt bash face. would rather have naturalize to kill a humilty or something and naturalize will go to the yard... Good
This is not a threshold/cantrip theme deck. We play good cards that don't cost very much and a lot of cantrips-- that's it. Pithing Needle qualifies here and shutting down wasteland makes the deck work. Here's my logic--

If everyone's lands only produce mana, you have the most efficient threats and disruption at the table.

Does that seem accurate enough? I see no problem with playing a proactive disruption card that shuts down problems for the deck and ways for other decks to deal with your cheap threats. Sign me up.

Wastedlife, I fully respect your accomplishments with Gro but don't let your recent successes intrude in the way of good logic. The best players will prove their points without just saying "I did this, did you?" This is why I say that Obfuscate Freely and MadZur are some of the better theorists about this deck, regardless of any tournament performances they may have. You can tell if people know what they're talking about by what they say, not what they do. I'd say the arguments have been pretty well outlined for playing white over red, and I'd also say that it's pretty ridiculous to claim that white is not playable. You've had some success with red, for sure, but don't discount the entire history and recent premier event performances of the deck, please.
Sorry, I didn't mean to come off as white is a terrible splash. I have tested against and with NQG with white over and over again. The deck tends to stall out because it can't kill it's opponent before the deck runs out of draw spells and counter magic. That's gro's weakness wait until their hand is dried out of good cards then play your stronger cards after bleeding out countermagic. Also I think NQG/w should run mongoose over mage MD which would make alot more sence than boarding in goose every round. Mage is only a 2/2 which slows the deck down alot. I understand it CAN name a card in thier grip, Unless you run peek by the way which I found to be very savage in the version with 4x mage 3x needle. But I think goose would just be a better option game 1 than mage, boarding in mage for the 2-3 match-ups you need it just makes more sence to me. Again, sorry if I come off the wrong way with my post.

Ridiculous Hat
12-14-2005, 10:51 PM
But it also goes against gro's concept. Getting cards in the yard, sure it shuts your opponents cards down somewhat but it is a permanent that doesnt bash face. would rather have naturalize to kill a humilty or something and naturalize will go to the yard... Good
This is not a threshold/cantrip theme deck. We play good cards that don't cost very much and a lot of cantrips-- that's it. Pithing Needle qualifies here and shutting down wasteland makes the deck work. Here's my logic--

If everyone's lands only produce mana, you have the most efficient threats and disruption at the table.

Does that seem accurate enough? I see no problem with playing a proactive disruption card that shuts down problems for the deck and ways for other decks to deal with your cheap threats. Sign me up.

Wastedlife, I fully respect your accomplishments with Gro but don't let your recent successes intrude in the way of good logic. The best players will prove their points without just saying "I did this, did you?" This is why I say that Obfuscate Freely and MadZur are some of the better theorists about this deck, regardless of any tournament performances they may have. You can tell if people know what they're talking about by what they say, not what they do. I'd say the arguments have been pretty well outlined for playing white over red, and I'd also say that it's pretty ridiculous to claim that white is not playable. You've had some success with red, for sure, but don't discount the entire history and recent premier event performances of the deck, please.
Sorry, I didn't mean to come off as white is a terrible splash. I have tested against and with NQG with white over and over again. The deck tends to stall out because it can't kill it's opponent before the deck runs out of draw spells and counter magic. That's gro's weakness wait until their hand is dried out of good cards then play your stronger cards after bleeding out countermagic. Also I think NQG/w should run mongoose over mage MD which would make alot more sence than boarding in goose every round. Mage is only a 2/2 which slows the deck down alot. I understand it CAN name a card in thier grip, Unless you run peek by the way which I found to be very savage in the version with 4x mage 3x needle. But I think goose would just be a better option game 1 than mage, boarding in mage for the 2-3 match-ups you need it just makes more sence to me. Again, sorry if I come off the wrong way with my post.
Playing Goose main is a metagame decision that I would respect. I personally find Mage to be good, but if you were testing with Peek then I can see where the problem may be in terms of philosophy-- Mage and Needle aren't supposed to name what they have as opposed to what you don't want them to play. You don't want to shut down their short game, you want to shut down their answers, and Mage and Needle are both just as good there whether or not they're blind.

Also, the differences between UGr and UGw gro are not really all that much, you know--

-4 STP
-4 Mage
-2 Enforcer

+4 Bolt/Fire Ice/Magma Jet
+4 Mongoose
+2 Fledgling Dragon/Sea Drake

--plus the obvious changes in lands are what typically detail the differences. No difference in cantrips, just minor tweaks to the threat base (and if you maindeck Mongoose instead it's not a tweak at all) and burn instead of STP. I looked at your list of UGr and noticed that you played a huge amount of burn spells, so that may attribute the difference in a lot of what you played-- but how does UGr force through threats any better than UGw?

SpencerForHire
12-15-2005, 01:27 AM
I really like Pyroclasm maindeck in the Red version. The virtual card advantage that card gives and the usefulness in pretty much every matchup makes it amazing. The only time it is almost useless is in the mirror match but at that point, you would be suffering the almost same uselessness if you were running any of the other 2 damage burn cards minus an extra 2 to the head.

Lego
12-15-2005, 04:32 AM
Why is Naturalize better than Disenchant? My manabase looks like this:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

Which gives me 12 ways to get green, 3 of which get nonbasic green, and 12 ways to get white, 7 of which get nonbasic white. Shouldn't that make Disenchant strictly better than naturalize? You probably have a different manabase than me.

@ Red Splash: This is really a metagame call. You make some matchups better, and some worse, as has been said before. It has also been said that the White splash better handles an unknown field. As for running out of threats and not being able to kill your opponent, the only difference there between the red splash and white splash is that Red has two-three burn spells over the course of the game that can be dirrected at the dome. There aren't all that many situations in which this will be done, and in an absolute best case scenario it will speed your clock up by a turn. I've pretty much always found that Fledgling Dragon and Mystic Enforcer both usually spell a three turn clock, so in the end it's about the Meta.

Nightmare
12-15-2005, 09:14 AM
Although it was answered up higher on this page, here it is. You run 4 ACTUAL White sources: 3 Tundra, 1 Plains. You run 8 ACTUAL Green sources: 3 Trop, 1 Forest and 4 WEREBEAR. Werebear taps for a Green, people.

Obfuscate Freely
12-15-2005, 11:49 AM
The fact that he has a basic Plains probably makes Disenchant better, anyway. He has 7 ways of getting a basic Plains, which makes Disenchant more reliable.

The thing about Werebear tapping for green is that it requires green mana to cast.

Ridiculous Hat
12-15-2005, 12:20 PM
I generally found naturalize to be easier to cast because you want to go for a green more often than you want to go for a white, but I don't see why either is right to play right now-- and if I were to pick an option, it would probably be Seal of Cleansing.

SpencerForHire
12-15-2005, 12:33 PM
And see, I'm not a big fan of Seal of Cleansing. If you are running it and your opponent knows, what is stopping them from going: "Pithing Needle -> Seal of Cleansing" to protect whatever you would like to hit.

Ridiculous Hat
12-15-2005, 12:43 PM
And see, I'm not a big fan of Seal of Cleansing. If you are running it and your opponent knows, what is stopping them from going: "Pithing Needle -> Seal of Cleansing" to protect whatever you would like to hit.
I'm not a big fan of Seal of Cleansing either, but I don't think there's any deck that you'd bring it in against that's running Pithing Needle. I mean, if we're discussing irrelevant cards re: disenchant/naturalize, at least play the best irrelevant card. :p

SpencerForHire
12-15-2005, 12:57 PM
Fair enough on the Seal arguement. I don't see too many matches where I would want Seal over Pithing at all (given there are a few) and so at the moment I run one Naturalize and one Disenchant in the side for testing.

Bryant Cook
12-15-2005, 04:49 PM
Werebear taps for a Green, people.
It does? wow..., you just rocked my world! If I ran the white version I'd personally run 1 and 1 in the SB. Because it avoids hate, and is harder to protect against. They can't mage and protect what they are trying to save, or other wierd times that that. As for seal of cleansing, Needle> the format.

Nightmare
12-15-2005, 04:51 PM
The only card I'd like Naturalize in the board for is Humility. It's not really an issue in my meta right now, so there's not much of a need for Disenchant effects. I guess if you play IBA every week or something it's worth it though.

Lego
12-16-2005, 11:13 AM
I'll check it out when I get back to the states next week, see what the meta is like and everything. Right now, I think I like Pithing Needle a *lot* more. I rarely see it dead in most matchups. Wastelands, Fetches, Manlands, Survival, Decree, Aether Vial, Gempalm, I've even hit Cranial Plating. I'm finding it pretty good :)

Ridiculous Hat
12-16-2005, 11:29 AM
I'll check it out when I get back to the states next week, see what the meta is like and everything. Right now, I think I like Pithing Needle a *lot* more. I rarely see it dead in most matchups. Wastelands, Fetches, Manlands, Survival, Decree, Aether Vial, Gempalm, I've even hit Cranial Plating. I'm finding it pretty good :)
I agree. I think naturalize/disenchant is terrible right now.

Zilla
12-18-2005, 01:05 AM
I agree. I think naturalize/disenchant is terrible right now.
I also agree. Humility is really the only prevalent enchantment/artifact you don't have any other answers to, and it's a turn 4 threat against a deck full of countermagic. In theory Naturalize is a good call in a metagame with a ton of Rifter/Wombat, but right now, I'd be more concerned with Goblins, Deadguy, and the mirror.

SpencerForHire
12-18-2005, 02:39 AM
However if I was expecting alot of MWC and Rifter I would really want Disenchant and Naturalize. This is mostly a "If I was going to have A or B I would want B. I don't want a sorcery speed disenchant I want the instantaneous affect. It saves me trouble in matchups provided I'm in certain metas. I still have no room for Disenchants in my board let alone seals.

Edit: The disenchants in my board are purely for testing and have put up no really good results.

Zilla
12-18-2005, 03:19 AM
However if I was expecting alot of MWC and Rifter I would really want Disenchant and Naturalize.
Agreed. I meant to say that and I guess I forgot. In a meta rife with Rifter/Wombat, I'd want them as answers. Then again, if that were the only reason I was running them, I might run Tempest of Light or Tranquil Domain isntead.

Windux
12-18-2005, 05:37 PM
Naturalize was sooo necessary in Lille.
Mass of Worship, Blood Moon (lost agaisnt it from Gobbos...with island, Plains, Forest...Brainstorm on 2 Crusades with just another Tundra-Mountain..and a Goblin king.outsch), Moat, Humility etc etc.
I never boarded my 2 Geddons.

I played 6-3 on Day 3, only lost against 3 Goblins...wtf they're waaaayyyyy too strong.
But I Slided in in the Blue Bracket as the 63.

Day 2 I was paired against Nuijten and just thought "as long as he don't Play Goblins..." and what he did? Just started with Mountain, Fanatic Go....2-1 after he played not That good i thought. On 9 Life with Enforcer+Mongoose Threshed on my Side.
He tapped the 2 Ports for Matron on Lackey to have blockers and avoid a Swords or BEB (or wtf?!).
I just played the FIRST!! Crusade on the Tournament.
Then I won against Burn, Lost against Burn, wona gainst 2 Land Belcher.
This Games were very funny.
He starts with:
Petal, ESG, 2 Tinder Walls-> Belcher
i just: Land, Needle go
He did Nothing.
I played SoH, finding the 2nd needle for Belcher and he scooped.

Boarded in the 3rd and 4th Mage.
He started and made NOTHING. Just " Its your Turn...yes i end my Turn without doing something"
So i played Needle on Belcher.
he then Land Grand->Bayou and playing Duress.
my Hand: Needle, Mage, naturalize, Drawspells. he picked a Needle.
I played a Mage on Belcher.
he played Ritual->Chromatic Sphere fetching R for REB on Mage.
I palyed a Drawspell, dropping the 3nd Needle.
He played another Duress hitting Naturalize and i played the next Mage....In the End he lost against 3 Needles and 2 Mages.
Pretty much "Bye-like".
Then i Lost against Candali with Aluren. The Tundras just hidden in my Deck: Mage, 2 Swords etc Backup...So he won because he Fetched 3 Cabal Therapys with Intuition, playing 1, flashbacking 3 With 2 Wall of Roots and a Familiar. I kept my Naturalize on Hand and in my Upkeep he decided to start the Combo. I Naturalized in Repsonse on the Harpern, but he had the Force+Pitch (3 handcards. last was the Familiar).

I went 84th. But it was fun to play.

Btw: Worship = Godlike

mackaber
12-18-2005, 07:57 PM
Hi I just came back from lille! I finished 15th going 11-2-2 in the process(With 2 byes). I was hoping to ID in the final round but was paired down and my oponent wanted to play, and bashed me with the odd survival dec that made top 8. Seemed like a very bad matchup, alltough his dec looks rather shity on paper.

Here's what I played:

Mack, Alex
UGW Gro
Main Deck
60 cards
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Windwept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

17 land

4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Werebear
3 Mystic Enforcer

10 creatures

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pithing Needle
3 Serum Visions
3 Mental Note
2 Predict
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm

33 other spells

2 Worship
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Meddling Mage
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Armageddon

15 sideboard cards

In any case grow was everywhere! And there were quite a few interesting ideas floating around. My dec was very good to me all weekend and deserves a pat on the shoulder.
I wanted to thank everyone on this thread for making grow the new dec to beat in legacy and sending me to Hawai!

Nazdakka
12-19-2005, 12:40 PM
I've posted up my tournament report in the appropriate forum, but it's pretty pertinant to this thread, so I'll link to it.

My report (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1849)

I played UGW Threshold to a 7-2 record on day 1 to get to day 2, but only managed 2-4 when I got there, so I wound up in 90th place.

Windux
12-19-2005, 01:23 PM
Tobias Fülhase was with us in the Bus to Lille.
He made 7-2 record on Day1 and then made 12-2-1 (i think it was so) and made 34th and 12th Amateur.
He ID'ed in the last Round for Split, because he don't have time for the Tour.
Here is his List:

4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
3 Polluted delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 volcanic Island
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
3 Mystic Enforcer
3 Swords to Plowsshares
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Note
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice

Sideboard:
3 Pyroclasm
3 naturalize
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Energy Flux

Another one of us palyed the similar Deck, but played in the Last Round shitty on Day1 and missed Day2.

Vardaman
12-19-2005, 10:33 PM
I am very suprised by the dearth of wastelands in the top 8. They were found only in goblins and a U/W control/landstill deck. (There were 3 in Helmut Summersburger's sideboard. Does anyone know when it would be correct to bring in? It seems unorthodox but there may be something to it.)

Anyway, is the lack of Wastelands a European thing or was it simply that the decks that can support Wasteland didn't make top 8? I'm asking because the lack of basics in many Gro decks would indicate that they didn't need to play around wasteland.

Zilla
12-20-2005, 01:44 AM
(There were 3 in Helmut Summersburger's sideboard. Does anyone know when it would be correct to bring in? It seems unorthodox but there may be something to it.)
My assumption is that they were there for the mirror match, which may or may not be a good idea. The rest of his deck appeared to be geared towards beating the mirror as well. For example, the choice to run white for Meddling Mage, but not StP. The first thing he named with Mage every time was StP, which was asymmetrical because it negated the opponent's spot removal while leaving his own Bolts and Fire/Ices unaffected. Clever.

Windux
12-20-2005, 07:00 AM
The Wastelands are also very tricky.
Did you ever Fetched a Basic-Land in the Mirror? Even if you only holding an 1-Land-Hand?
To Waste the Opponents First Land can be very good. It's even better if you Start and drop a 2nd Turn Mongoose, because he won't be able to Daze it.

The Divert and Worship are the best ideas IMO. Preboard Worship+Mongosse is the most time an unbeatable wall.
Against Goblins, you simply wait 'till you get your Enforcer (or against Red at all the Knight) and beat him up.
1st Turn Mongoose / 2nd Turn Knight + 3rd Turn Worship is a kill against every Goblins preboard. In most case also Postboard, because you can counter all his Disenchant-Effecs.

mackaber
12-20-2005, 09:39 AM
Summersberger didn't board his wastelands in the mirror, he was very confident in his Meddling Mage naming Swords plan wich screwed many grow players over(including myself in game 1 where I kept the double sword nothing draw). He sideboarded his wastelands against Landstill and Rift, the matchups where the rest of us would board geddon, don't know what's better to be honest. Against Gobos he boarded his chills 2 needles and his lone naturalize, and tried to always be the aggressor. His take on the dec was that he always had to be the beatdown, where as many other people interpret the dec as a controll dec.
The lack of basic lands in many decs is either due to the fact that they didn't test enough or that they think the added consistency is worth the risk of screw, especially since most of the Grow decs in Lille were very aggresive in nature and many had dropped the fat.
I played Summersberger in Round 12 and it ended as a draw, altough I would have won if time hadn't run out. I think that my superior card draw and 3 Enforcers gave me the advantage, but I had to get to the late game to really take advantage of it. He seemed to be missing one of his colours in almost every game so I'm not all too convinced if his dec can hold it's ground against wasteland.
Another piece of spicy tech I saw over the weekend was Legacy's Allure as Miiror SB tech.
Oh and everbody who called Mongoose unnecesarry, were you ever wrong!!!!:laugh:

dryadfanatic724
12-20-2005, 03:18 PM
Hi, I think I mentioned this in another forum, but I need other gro players' opinion on this hot piece of tech that may or may not be that hot: Mind Harness from Mirage.
U, Aura. Can only enchant a R/G creature. Cumulative upkeep: 1. You gain control of enchanted creature. This can take beef from a mirror or RG advantage or some goblins (not piledriver though - damn it) and let you use it to beat on them or take a werebear to block a wearbear/untargetable goose. Did I mention you can also steal Mystic enforcers? Also, with pithing needle around, is Tormod's crypt any good vs the mirror?
And to mackaber, you played in Lille, but in the states there were a lot more Gobs making 4color gro not as good. I played at GP philly with a 4color GAT deck (I had to use my lone Berserk) and was frequently cut off from a color via Wasteland. However, I only played against one mirror and one straight up psychatog (U/B), while you probably played the mirror all day. Do you have any tech to share vs. the mirror and what do you think about my tech? (I wish I had it or Hail Storm when I was playing). Since the GP, I cut black and went with Enforcer (The card is nuts) although I kept dryad and wish because of berserk (on dryad, you should get 10+ trample in, and on enforcer 12 flying trample isn't that bad either). It's good to see more players playing a deck that rewards skill. Please give feedback on Mind Harness as I want to know if it is good or bad tech.

Magic Trick
12-20-2005, 03:44 PM
I don't think it's very good because it's basically like a 1 turn bounce. . .that doesn't require them to pay it's mana cost again. You don't really want to pay the upkeep because it's too mana-intensive, so mostlikely it's a 1 turn save, maybe 2.

I'd rather play something like chain vapor, even though you don't gain controll of a creature to attack with. . . it's another card against Lackey, it's an instant, and requires them to play the card again, taking up much time.

Then again it could be a decent late-game card, good against the mirror, decent against goblins, of course it's horrible agaisnt soliditary (but so is vapor), and good against reanimator and other aggro decks I guess.

I'll test it, it's good that someone is thinking of some new cards to use. So good job!! Could prove to be worthy, but I don't think so.

What do you guys think about Chain of Vapor though? It helps against goblins, stops lackey, and the mirror. Plus you can use it on your own creatures when they're about to die.

dryadfanatic724
12-20-2005, 04:24 PM
Well, Trick, I would use Chain, except that I play Quirion Dryad, so it wouldn't be a sound choice. Vs. enchantments I have Ray of R. and I have E. Flux and disenchant for artifacts. On other critters, I have STP (oh, yes it THE reason to splash white), psionic blast (which kills players too), and my new tech, Mind Harness. It's just that I have the mirror in mind and although you can't do much to gooses outside of combat, Mind Harness is essentially a 2 for 1. If they counter it w/ Force, OK. If you jack a creature and they trade, OK. You can't say that about Chain, although personally I prefer to kill critters and not just bounce them. Vs. Survival you can jack rofellos, genesis (though if they cast it, you should Swords), FTKs (just for the 4/2 body). Vs. RDW, if it's even played anymore, you can jack lavamancer (and if you splash red, then use its ability) if not, trade with an X/1. Kird ape isn't a bad target either, as Trops are forests too. Vs. the mirror you can take pretty much anything besides goose: Dryad (if they play it), Mystic Enforcer (if they play it), Fledgling Dragon (if they don't play Enforcer) and Werebear (they must play it!). Vs Gobs, I'll take their Warchief and block with it. Although, unlike Chain, Mind Harness is limited to creatures; and they have to be red or green. Don't worry about the upkeep that much as you'll probably keep it for 3 turns at most before you score a 2 for 1 or beatdown for a win (I mean, would you rather play control magic at 4 mana?). This card's particular use is vs. the mirror because the momentum change should tip the game in your favor (hell, its better than submerge). I'll test with both and post later. Thanks for the feedback, Trick.

mackaber
12-21-2005, 06:00 AM
@dryadfanatic: Hadn't thought of mind harness but it seems like it could be some good, altough I'm not convinced it will do all that much against goblins, for the mirror I like legacys allure more I think but I haven't tested either of them. Btw there was lots of Goblins in lille as well but it just got hated out.

Another interesting observation I made in Lille was some frenchies boarding Null Rod against Goblins to shut down Vial and Crypt---> spicy
My original impression of the mirror match was that card advantage usually wins, and I didn't looose a mirror match all wekend, this is also due to the fact that I was running mental note as well, without it you can stumble on your treshhold count and loose rather quikly.

Lego
12-21-2005, 09:29 AM
I still haven't decided if Accumulated Knowledge should stay or not. Right now it's there simply because I *have* no Predicts, but what do all you guys think about it? I'm running the white splash (again because of a lack of cards, this time Dragons, but also because I love Enforcer) and my cantrip base looks like this:

4 Predict
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
2 Sleight of Hand

If I get the dragons and go with the red version, Magma Jet becomes a possibility, has anyone tested that? I don't know if this is the way to go, or if I should put the AKs in instead of the Predicts, maybe go

4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Serum Vision
4 Brainstorm
2 Predict

What does everyone think about AK versus Predict, and maybe the Mental Note thing as well. It's been discussed, but I haven't really heard any testing results to convince me.

dryadfanatic724
12-21-2005, 11:01 AM
THanks, I think I'll cut the energy fluxes for null rod as affinity is not really around anymore and null rod applies to more decks (namely for vial and vault).
Hey Lego, don't use Jet as it doesn't actually replace itself. If you're going with the net-deck, use predict. Personally, I use AK and Dryad in my build. However, I only finished in 49th at GP Philly with GroATog, so you might as well net-deck. I'm just waiting for a chance to test the mirror.

Bryant Cook
12-21-2005, 11:18 AM
Hey Lego, don't use Jet as it doesn't actually replace itself. If you're going with the net-deck, use predict.
That statement is incorrect in my opinion, magma jet gives you card advantage. It kill's a dude or goes to the nugget, Scrys to put bad cards on the bottom and keeps better cards ontop. Not to mention it's savage with predict which he was going to be running anyways as he said in his post. As for AK it is too slow and not consistant enough for this deck. First time you cast it, it's a 1U draw a card, I'm sorry but that is not good in my books at all. 2nd time you cast it if you draw another is 1U draw 2, which predict already reads. 3rd AK if you're a top deck hero, you are in the lategame Ak is dead anyways because you're in the late game. This deck doesn't need late game cards in it. This is an aggro/control deck based around the early to midgame.

Edit: fixed for typos.

Lego
12-21-2005, 11:26 AM
Magma Jet is one of the most savage burn spells every printed. Don't be mean to it.

Wasted is right, I wanted to run it because I was thinking of running Predict. I haven't liked AK much, but I also don't always set up Predicts. With Magma Jet in the deck nothing could stop me from playing Predict over AK, check the math (assuming you always set up):

Predict 1: 2 cards
Predict 2: 4 cards
Predict 3: 6 cards
Predict 4: 8 cards

AK 1: 1 card
AK 2: 3 cards
AK 3: 6 cards
AK 4: 10 cards

I think that's the first time I've done that, and it seems wrong. AK isn't actually better until number 4, and it never adds two to your threshold. Sure, you won't always be setting up Predict, but it seems good. Plus, it's really fun to cast after an Enlightened Tutor :)

dryadfanatic724
12-21-2005, 02:37 PM
I didn't say Jet was crap, it's just that I always have the mirror in mind and Jet isn't all too great in that. Vs piledriver, the card is a house--- actually vs. goblins the card is a house. Also as wasted life points out, the synergy with predict is nuts. It didn't occur to me to use both, as I don't splash red. Although I'll tell you, I use Intuition, so AK is very good for me (I mean for fuck's sake, its an instant that draws nutty amounts of cards). I mean, not everyone will agree with my method, but this way, I use less cantrips and more business spells. Also Intuition, even if it's not for Ak, should give you threshold on the spot + a card in hand.

BTW, Lego, Jet, Brainstorm, Serum Visions should set up your predicts most of the time and occasionally you can use it as an Anti-Tutor (Of course I mean the Mirage tutors). The only time that you don't set up the predict is if it comes at a shitty time (e.g. Topdecked) or if you dont have the mana to... which then you'd be fucked anyway. Also, I'm fine with less people playing AK, as mirrors with AK usually get out of hand. I played a game where I AK'd for 6 and M.Maged AK afterwards as I used my last one. While I think you should use Predict as it is way more consistent than AK, AK can refill your hand when in a rough spot, and is generally a better topdeck than predict or magma jet.

I didn't mean any ill towards Jet and while I agree that it is one of the most savage burn spells (though it is better suited for r/x decks and not mono color), I don't splash red, so I have to compensate with more raw card drawing power. It's up to you: More Synergy = Less Single Card Brokenness.

Bargoth
12-21-2005, 02:39 PM
Yeah, I like Predict better than AK for this deck. One thing is that in your comparison you didnt really take into account that a set up Predict costs 3 mana and 2 cards, to draw 3 cards and put 3 cards into the 'yard. So if your playing it to it's max potential then its costing you more mana and is dependant on your hand. AK alone is a better card, but with the synergy of playing Brainstorm and Serum Visions (plus Magma Jet, Sleight of Hand, etc...) I feel Predict wins out as a better card in NQG.

dsg123456789
12-21-2005, 03:02 PM
I would like to point out that I have been strongly advocating Magma Jet over Fire/Ice for a long time, since the old UGr Gro thread, because its card quality scrying and great synergy with Predict make it as if it was a cantrip-burn spell alone and a spicy setup spell if you also have predict. Fire/Ice is very rarely better that Magma Jet, except in the mirror when you need to not die. But if you are in the position where you are trying to avoid lethal damage, you are probably not in a great position anyway.

Mind Harness is not nearly as spicy as it seems, for these reasons:
1) You generally will have 3-4 mana in play when you cast it, because at that point you can afford the upkeep for a few turns to get some use out of your stolen dude.
2) Your opponent isn't retarded, and will not swing his piledrivers into the warchief you just stole so that you get a 2-1. More likely, he'll burn out/StP/kill the stolen creature or wait for you to lose the ability to pay the upkeep and just get it back. Because waiting for 3 turns while your opponent develops his board and you pay the upkeep is not a way to win.
3) Legacy's Allure does what this card does, except it does it better. It comes down early and in 1-2 turns it can steal all the goblins you could want (but this time its permanent and doesn't tie up your mana). You can wait for a while and have it accumulate counters while the game progresses, and then use it to steal your mirror match opponent's finishers. If you think that creature stealing will help you, I believe that Legacy's Allure would be much more effective.

This is a sideboard strategy that I have been thinking about that may allow you to meta-suprise your opponents and gain a victory: Since many Gro players are running Crypts in their boards in order to win the mirror match, they cannot also Needle the Crypts, because then they render there hate useless. So instead, you board Phyrexian Furnaces and Needle their Crypts, because if you start furnacing turn 1 or 2, you should be able to keep them off of threshold for several more turns, and additional furnaces in play as the game progresses will make it harder and harder for your opponent to gain threshold, all the while you are safe because you Needled their hate. <--Its just something to think about.

What is the optimal number of creatures to run in Gro? How about burn spells? Lille saw decks with 12 or more creatures maindeck, and 8 or more burn spells as well. What matchups does this help? What matchups does this hurt?

Bryant Cook
12-21-2005, 03:24 PM
I myself too run Phrexian furnace, but I don't run needle or stifle in my deck. I feel that they are reactive cards, sore suited towards U/g/w gro. I ended up cutting stifle from my list because I never wanted it when I had it. Stifleing 1 fetch or a ringleader shouldn't throw off your opponents tempo enough that you should run it. As for needle it's a artifact that makes naturalize and disenchant useful after game 2.
@ dsg123456789- I too run alot of burn and think Magma Jet is fairly retarded in U/g/r gro.


What is the optimal number of creatures to run in Gro? How about burn spells? Lille saw decks with 12 or more creatures maindeck, and 8 or more burn spells as well. What matchups does this help? What matchups does this hurt?

NQW- Not Quite White

Lands
2 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Forest
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Island
1 Mountain

Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Fledgling Dragon

Burn Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
4 Magma Jet

Counters
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
Draw
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Predict

Sideboard
4 Pyroclasm
3 Winter Orb
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Naturalize
2 Phyrexian Furnace

If a mod feels that I was spamming, please delete the list. But I run 12 burn spells, giving me an easyier way to win. Running 12 burn spells helps out against alot of match-ups RGSA, ATS, goblins, aggro in general. Also helps against combo giving you a way faster clock. Running 12 burn spells only hurts against big creatures such as exalted angel, enforcer, tog, and any form of reanimator.

dryadfanatic724
12-21-2005, 03:47 PM
Personally, I run 10 creatures, as I believe its the optimal number. Keep in mind, I play Intuition which, if you didn't draw into a guy for some bizzare reason, will give it to you (EOT, I might add).
I wouldn't replace Fire/Ice w/ Jet for one reason - FOW. Playing both is fine. Here's my build, feel free to flame, but only after testing it out. Thanks, dsg, I think Legacy's Allure is better tech.

Old School Gro

4 Trop Island
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Yavimaya Coast (the G/U shockland once it is released)
2 Island
4 Quirion Dryad
3 Meddling Mage
3 Mystic Enforcer
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Serum Visions
3 Daze
4 FOW
4 Counterspell
2 Intuition
4 AK
3 Cunning Wish
2 Stifle
1 Psionic Blast

Sideboard:
1 Berserk
1 Disenchant
2 Null Rod
1 Ray of Revelation
2 Hail Storm
1 Tivadar's Crusade
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Legacy's Allure
1 Misdirection
1 Oxidize
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Honor the Fallen
1 Stifle

Constructive criticism is fine, but don't just randomly flame, give me your reasoning. Note: I think my board is too janky, but I guess that happens when playing wish. Can someone help me clean this up?

Nightmare
12-21-2005, 04:11 PM
Cleaning it up is simple. Stop playing Dryad. That means you don't need Wish--> Berserk anymore, which means you can cut Wish. I am not trying to flame, but other than a sentimental attachment, there is no reason to run Dryad. It has been proven time and time again to suck. A few other thoughts:

There's no reason to run the pain lands over basics. They are not fetchable, and still die to Wasteland. Add the life loss and you have an easy cut. Run 1x Plains 1x Forest instead, and you can cast anything on basics alone. Psy Blast is interesting, but how often do you really need it? I would also switch the #s on Counterspell and Serum Visions.

Ridiculous Hat
12-21-2005, 04:18 PM
Intuitioning for creatures seems absolutely awful-- you thin your already creature-light deck of threats and most of the time you won't be able to intuition for a specific guy anyways. Intuition in general seems extremely cuttable-- follow Mr. N's suggestions and cut the cute stuff to make your deck more efficient. There's no reason not to run 4 swords.

SpencerForHire
12-21-2005, 04:55 PM
I took out pithing needle in my version after I realized I would rather just win. I keep the Pithing needles in the board in case I really feel like I need them in a matchup and put Mongooses back into the maindeck. This allows for plenty of more ways to win faster.
The main logic was that this deck is best mid game and pithing needle stalls the other deck into the late game whereas attacking with a 3/3 puts the pressure on to end the game.

Nightmare
12-21-2005, 05:02 PM
Gimbles, I've found room for both MD. That makes me curious as to what cantrips you're running, because you probably are running them in the slots I use for needles. I've cut the AKs from my build, and have decided to run these cantrips:

4x Brainstorm
4x Serum Visions
4x Predict
2x Sleight

I may go 3x Predict 3x Peek 0xSleight if I decide to keep Needle main, because even without the reach, Peek is nuts with Needle and Mage MD.

dryadfanatic724
12-21-2005, 05:56 PM
I'll try out an alternate build w/o, although vs. the mirror twice at GP Philly, Dryad went all the way vs. their smaller guys. I beat 1 and tied with the other, because we ran out of time (we were mostly drawing cards and trading guys). I'll see what I can do to clean it up. BTW, psi blast is the most unexpected card ever. At GP, I killed someone who got out a Humility (It was the 2nd one he cast and I didn't have a counter, he was already in single digits and swinging with my generic 1/1's and Psiblast was GG). Also, I needed a redundant green source that also gave me blue (forests dont tap for U), this way I can just shit on Goblins with the Hail Storms. Either way, I need to test both builds a bit more before coming to any conclusions.