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BreathWeapon
07-11-2007, 04:20 AM
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/412a

The Dreadnaught's CIP text can now be countered with Stifle and Trickbind. Will this change revive the The Full English Breakfast or create a new aggro-control-combo deck we've never seen before? A combo that costs 1U or 2U and has a range of tutors from Mystical Tutor, Merchant Scroll, Cunning Wish, Worldly Tutor, Living Wish, Enlightened Tutor, Trinket Mage, Intuition, Lim Dul's Vault, Dizzy Spell (lol) is no doubt the second coming of Flash for our format.

For the most cost efficient combo in Magic to date, and a combo that can fit into our current aggro-control decks no less, we're going to have to reconsider our entire format.

Edit: Should this be in New and Developmental or Open? I wasn't certain where to post this, so if a moderator has a better place for it, by all means feel free to move it.

Maverick676
07-11-2007, 06:16 AM
Whoa, I doubt this will revolutionize the format. This isn't flash where you play this combo and win, swords stops this guy dead in his tracks. Plus it isn't an instant win since dreadnought is a 12/12.

Barook
07-11-2007, 06:49 AM
I guess this thread should be moved to the Community board.

Anyway, i think these are the two main plans to abuse it:

a) Tons of accel along with Pandemonium and EtW for additional fun

b) Some kind of Fish deck with Aether Vial and MD Stifle/Trickbind (which are rarely dead with so many Storm combos and Fetchlands around)

tivadar
07-11-2007, 07:39 AM
Hmm, he's fetchable by trinket mage, interesting :-P

Finn
07-11-2007, 09:22 AM
Let me put my opinion this way: You had all better get your Dreadnaughts now. They will be hard to come by in 3 weeks.

Specifically, this guy is a perfect fit for a variety of decks already in common use. Stifles and Trickbinds are a mere half a step away from being reasonable maindeck optoins in anything with blue. It works well with Aether Vial, and has no other color requirements. I would estimate that PD will be the focus of a lot of decks in the very near future, and he will make blue an even more attractive color for aggro control.

Im off to N+D

Lukas Preuss
07-11-2007, 09:50 AM
This is awesome. Although I'm not sure if it will break the format, it might become a viable deck. Stifle is already a very strong card and a trampling 12/12 for just one colorless mana is great.

I would build a mono (?) blue fish deck around it with a heavy control suite (FoW, Daze, Stifle, maybe counterbalance, etc.) and dreadnought as a strong finisher.

Anusien
07-11-2007, 10:11 AM
I will laugh like hell the first time the Stifle gets countered and you lose your board.

Anyway, I'm unconvinced this is all that great. I mean yes, it's a two card combo that for 1U can put a 12/12 into play. However, it doesn't win until three turns later which is a lot of chances to get your guy killed. I'm not saying it's not good, but it's not a good single-minded way to win the game.

It appears that MaGo was listening when I asked him to fix that card.

sammiel
07-11-2007, 10:15 AM
you dont lose your board, you lose the dreadnought if the stifle is countered.

Barook
07-11-2007, 10:28 AM
I will laugh like hell the first time the Stifle gets countered and you lose your board.
And we'll all have a good laugh when you realize how wrong this statement is. :laugh:

A 2-for-1 isn't good, but it's not that devestating either, and you can back it up with your own Dazes and FoWs. The idea has definitely potential, but only time will tell how competitive it can be in times where StP gains popularity again to answer Goyf.

zulander
07-11-2007, 10:29 AM
Sounds great for a casual deck. I don't know if it will be top tier material though. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

C.P.
07-11-2007, 10:30 AM
First, I'm really glad that they actually cared about eternal formats and announced the change like they are supposed to. I hate to admit it, but it is all thanks to Flash.

About Stifle/Naught, It might be viable in a Trinket aggro control. I don't think it is format breaking, though.

4eak
07-11-2007, 11:00 AM
This is definitely a cool change. I don't know how much it will change the format, but it looks fun! =)...This definitely isn't flash though. At least we all get to play around with it.

Here is what I've been messing around with so far, and it has been fun:

-=10 The Noughty-combo=-
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind

-=8 TM-Package=-
4 Trinket Mage
1 Aether Vial
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sensei's Divining Top

-=7 Cantrips=-
3 Impulse
4 Brainstorm

-=14 Control=-
4 Force of Will
2 Mana Leak
4 Daze
4 StP

-=21 Land=-
6 Fetch
1 Tundra
1 Plains
4 Quicksand
8 Island
1 Ancient Den

It is a pile, but it is a blast. It feels like cheating to sneak that dreadnought into play. Reminds me alot of trinket-colossus.

I wonder if wizards will change the replacement effect lands back to the originally worded triggered lands (that would be too powerful...but maybe it is better to ban than to errata).

peace,
4eak

Caboose
07-11-2007, 12:43 PM
Thank God I play UGR Gro. -3 Krosan Grip, +3 Ancient Grudge. Good luck countering all 6 copies of Grudge with my own counter backup :wink:

Tacosnape
07-11-2007, 12:55 PM
It's worth noting that if you can get a second Dreadnought into play before the trigger on the first resolves, you can sacrifice one to the other and still end up with a Dreadnaught in play. This makes for interesting fun with Aether Vial.

Sanguine Voyeur
07-11-2007, 12:55 PM
Thank God I play UGR Gro. -3 Krosan Grip, +3 Ancient Grudge. Good luck countering all 6 copies of Grudge with my own counter backup :wink:Wouldn't it be even harder to counter the Krosan Grips?

frogboy
07-11-2007, 01:03 PM
normally when I assemble my two card combos my opponents die.

Barook
07-11-2007, 01:16 PM
It's worth noting that if you can get a second Dreadnought into play before the trigger on the first resolves, you can sacrifice one to the other and still end up with a Dreadnaught in play. This makes for interesting fun with Aether Vial.

I thought about, too, but this combo has one fundamental flaw:

1st PD is played, trigger goes on stack
2nd PD is vialed in, trigger goes on stack
--> 2nd PD trigger is on top of the stack, PD dies
--> 1st PD trigger resolves, PD dies

Caboose
07-11-2007, 01:18 PM
Wouldn't it be even harder to counter the Krosan Grips?

If you go turn 1 Dreadnought, turn 2 attack, turn 3 attack on the play, I can't even get to Grip mana. Plus, Grudge gets around Therapy :smile:

Nightmare
07-11-2007, 01:24 PM
I thought about, too, but this combo has one fundamental flaw:

1st PD is played, trigger goes on stack
2nd PD is vialed in, trigger goes on stack
--> 2nd PD trigger is on top of the stack, PD dies
--> 1st PD trigger resolves, PD diesA little off. It's like this:

1st PD is played, trigger goes on stack
2nd PD is vialed in, trigger goes on stack
--> 2nd PD trigger is on top of the stack, PD1 is sacrificed
--> PD1 is already dead, so you don't need to sac a creature to it.

Machinus
07-11-2007, 01:27 PM
People are figuring out how to kill AEther Vial and Pithing Needle. Why would you play this?

scrumdogg
07-11-2007, 01:29 PM
Mono-blue is interesting, but wouldn't this be stronger as either UB or UW? White gives you Enlightened Tutor, Mom, Meddling Mage (naming STP or Ancient Grudge or Krosan Grip or whatever), Flagbearers and protection options. Black gives you the ability to rip their hand apart before you expose your large but fragile win condition. With Black also having Extirpate, your opponent should get one shot at best to hit your win-con....and presumably you play more than 1x? Hell, even GU(b) could be interesting with enough acceleration you could run Protean Hulk & fetch out PD, Bodyguard x3 & a Meddling Mage or have a suite of Stonewood Invocation type effects (and some other scary beaters as well, like Goyf?).

Barook
07-11-2007, 01:30 PM
A little off. It's like this:

1st PD is played, trigger goes on stack
2nd PD is vialed in, trigger goes on stack
--> 2nd PD trigger is on top of the stack, PD1 is sacrificed
--> PD1 is already dead, so you don't need to sac a creature to it.

Oh, my bad. I'm a bit sleepy today. Well, yet another reason to run Vial.

Turn 1 Vial, Turn 2 vial in PD, Trickbind sounds like some uncounterable, sexy fun as well.

scrumdogg
07-11-2007, 01:35 PM
If you go turn 1 Dreadnought, turn 2 attack, turn 3 attack on the play, I can't even get to Grip mana. Plus, Grudge gets around Therapy :smile:

Explain to me the Turn 1 play? Land & Mox/Petal for Dreadnought and Stifle? Putting you in need of 4-5 specific cards? Sounds unlikely to happen on a regular basis.

tivadar
07-11-2007, 01:43 PM
Hmm, here's an interesting thought:

Vodalian Illusionist u2 2/2:
UU, tap: Target creature phases out.

PD comes into play, his ability goes on stack, you use illusionist to phase him out. Ability resolves with no target. Next turn he phases in, ready to attack. This works, correct? Not saying it's optimal, but phasing brings interesting possibilities to the table. Makes him essentially immune to sorcery-speed removal.

EDIT: Scout's warning could also be used in a white version to give them flash. That way you can get 2 in your hand into play at the same time.

Machinus
07-11-2007, 02:48 PM
This raises some really interesting questions about the the banned list.

I wonder if mask would even be good in this format?

Nightmare
07-11-2007, 02:52 PM
This raises some really interesting questions about the the banned list.

I wonder if mask would even be good in this format?Was it ever good in any format?

Machinus
07-11-2007, 02:56 PM
Was it ever good in any format?

Masknought did pretty well in Vintage back in the early days. Until 2005 it was top8ing in Stax decks.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
07-11-2007, 02:59 PM
There was also NaughtDragon, but that ticked off of Bazaar and Squee, and was only somewhat decent as an alternative if you couldn't get your better combo together.

My advice is to get rid of your Dreadnaughts now, because after the hype dies down, people are going to realize in how many ways they'd just rather be playing reanimator.

Bovinious
07-11-2007, 03:01 PM
I think Mask is banned because of price tag not because its actually "broken".

Machinus
07-11-2007, 03:16 PM
I think Mask is banned because of price tag not because its actually "broken".

No, it's actually more complex than that. The value of the cards is relevant only in indirect ways. I may have room to go into this in more detail in a future article.

C.P.
07-11-2007, 04:47 PM
A quick rules question. How did Vial and naght worked under old errata?

TeenieBopper
07-11-2007, 04:54 PM
My advice is to get rid of your Dreadnaughts now, because after the hype dies down, people are going to realize in how many ways they'd just rather be playing reanimator.

Ding ding ding! Winnar!

Barook
07-11-2007, 04:55 PM
A quick rules question. How did Vial and naght worked under old errata?

It dies unless you sac 12+ power. THE END!

Lego
07-11-2007, 05:28 PM
A little off. It's like this:

1st PD is played, trigger goes on stack
2nd PD is vialed in, trigger goes on stack
--> 2nd PD trigger is on top of the stack, PD1 is sacrificed
--> PD1 is already dead, so you don't need to sac a creature to it.


Hmm, here's an interesting thought:

Vodalian Illusionist u2 2/2:
UU, tap: Target creature phases out.

PD comes into play, his ability goes on stack, you use illusionist to phase him out. Ability resolves with no target. Next turn he phases in, ready to attack. This works, correct? Not saying it's optimal, but phasing brings interesting possibilities to the table. Makes him essentially immune to sorcery-speed removal.

If they leave him exactly as is as just change the "If dreadnought would come into play" to "When dreadnought comes into play" then neither of these work. Assume they leave him as is and just change it to when he CIPs. The ability goes on the stack when he comes into play. Now, if you don't Stifle it, it will eventually resolve. No matter what has happened since then, no matter what is left in play and what has gone where, you will be required to sacrifice up to 12 power worth of creatures. It's not an either or, and you don't have a choice. If any Dreadnoughts are left in play, one will be sacrificed. If you have any other creatures in play and no Dreadnoughts, they will be sacrificed.

I suppose the Illusionist play would work. You phase out the Dreadnought, sac the Illusionist, and then the Dreanought comes back and can continue to attack.

emidln
07-11-2007, 05:48 PM
People are figuring out how to kill AEther Vial and Pithing Needle. Why would you play this?

Because Goblins doesn't run Force of Will, Daze, or Fling to protect its artifacts.

Ewokslayer
07-11-2007, 05:50 PM
If they leave him exactly as is as just change the "If dreadnought would come into play" to "When dreadnought comes into play" then neither of these work. Assume they leave him as is and just change it to when he CIPs. The ability goes on the stack when he comes into play. Now, if you don't Stifle it, it will eventually resolve. No matter what has happened since then, no matter what is left in play and what has gone where, you will be required to sacrifice up to 12 power worth of creatures. It's not an either or, and you don't have a choice. If any Dreadnoughts are left in play, one will be sacrificed. If you have any other creatures in play and no Dreadnoughts, they will be sacrificed.


You do have a choice. You either sac 12 power worth of creatures or bury the Dreadnought.
With the Aether Vial situation you choose the first option (sac 12 power worth of creatures) for the 2nd Phyrexian Dreadnought trigger and the second option (sac Dreadnought) for the 1st Phyrexian Dreadnought trigger.

frogboy
07-11-2007, 06:48 PM
Can someone address the point of your two card combo being countered by Swords to Plowshares?

HPC
07-11-2007, 07:27 PM
Well this sounds awesome! I'm already running 3x Stifle in my UGw thresh. Phyrexian Dreadnought might be a great replacement for my Mystic Enforcer. It's a little more vulnerable, but I'm pretty positive that between my Meddling Mages and Counterspells that I can protect it for a couple turns while I smash face. Dreadnought makes my Stifles always relevant and I can always just cast him to give all 'Goyf +2/+2. Yay!

Xero
07-11-2007, 09:06 PM
This dosen't seem all that good. Stifle+Dreadnaught is a two card combo that dies to any couterspell, most creaure kill, and artifact kill. Vial+Trickbind sounds fun, but its a 3 card combo that dosen't win the game, and is still pretty fragile. Even assuming you can pull off a turn 2 Dreadnaught, that still leaves your oponnent two turns to answer it.

sammiel
07-12-2007, 12:50 AM
No, it's actually more complex than that. The value of the cards is relevant only in indirect ways. I may have room to go into this in more detail in a future article.

I hate derailing threads, but I want to answer this one. A friend of mine made a mask deck after picking up a pair of them at a prerelease, and the errata for mask is like half a printed page of text.

That is more than reason enough to leave it banned in legacy.

Machinus
07-12-2007, 01:04 AM
I hate derailing threads, but I want to answer this one. A friend of mine made a mask deck after picking up a pair of them at a prerelease, and the errata for mask is like half a printed page of text.

That is more than reason enough to leave it banned in legacy.

In your opinion, cards that are hard to use should be banned.

I don't have to point how poor of a B/R policy this would be, and thankfully the DCI doesn't follow it. Perhaps I should go in-depth into this topic in my article on B/R stuff.

Since I'm nice, I'll give you some proof: Chains of Mephistopheles.

BreathWeapon
07-12-2007, 01:05 AM
Can someone address the point of your two card combo being countered by Swords to Plowshares?

Dreadnought decks can either focus on establishing an unrecoverable board state against aggro or alternate into Balance/Top against aggro-control to dominate the stack and then trump the board. Just using Trinket Mage, Stifle and a single Dreadnought in an aggro-control deck allows it to roll over aggro at its discretion. A deck doesn't need to be built around the "combo," because it fits seamlessly into any pre-existing aggro-control shell as a self sufficient win condition, or in other words Dreadnought is aggro-control's Empty the Warrens. Even if a deck based on Dreadnought isn't viable, and I'm not convinced at all that it isn't viable since I've been slaughtering people with it for the past 24 hours, we've been given a tremendous threat that can be included in a range of decks.

The fact that you can either build a deck around the card or include it into any other deck is what makes it so ridiculous. Who cares if an opponent can answer the threat? A two for one isn't all that devastating when 12 life comes along with it after all. Please SB in a board full of removal for Dreadnought, I'll just drop Balance/Top and laugh or use the other 59 cards in the deck to makes those Ancient Grudges look stupid.

We get "unrestricted Tinker Colossus" and people are just blowing it off after 24 hours in the wake of Flash? I'll buy every Phyrexian Dreadnought you have, no bull shit, drop me a PM.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
07-12-2007, 01:18 AM
The obvious flaw is that you can't just throw Dreadnaught into any deck with Stifles. That's unbelievably terrible. It cripples both cards, since you now have to hold onto Stifles as precious resources, and Dreadnaught is going to sit there dead without the Stifle

Nydaeli
07-12-2007, 01:34 AM
What really makes it broken is that you can use Dizzy Spell to fetch both parts of the combo.

...What a terrible idea. I hope nobody proves me wrong.

Phantom
07-12-2007, 02:01 AM
The obvious flaw is that you can't just throw Dreadnaught into any deck with Stifles. That's unbelievably terrible. It cripples both cards, since you now have to hold onto Stifles as precious resources, and Dreadnaught is going to sit there dead without the Stifle

This is why I think this is, AT BEST, a supplemental strategy. Throw one in a deck that runs Trinket mage and Stifle effects and tutor it up if you already have the stifle (too bad FS doesn't run Stifle effects mainboard, and does run roughly 47 Chalice of the voids). Otherwise you are going to be stuck with one or the other often, and resort to running crappy tutors for a mediocre result: a targetable artifact creature that thanks to Krosan Grip, can't always be saved by a counter. We're killing ourselves for this?

BreathWeapon
07-12-2007, 02:11 AM
The obvious flaw is that you can't just throw Dreadnaught into any deck with Stifles. That's unbelievably terrible. It cripples both cards, since you now have to hold onto Stifles as precious resources, and Dreadnaught is going to sit there dead without the Stifle

I wasn't suggesting adding 4 Dreadnought in a deck with just Stifle, I suggesting adding 4 Trinket Mage and 1 Dreadnought in a deck with just Stifle. At worst Dreadnought either gets shuffled back into the deck or cast to pump a Tarmogoyf and Trinket Mage either finds Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt or sets up Balance/Top while serving as an attacker/blocker. No one is going to sit on Stifle and wait for the Trinket Mage to tutor up the single Dreadnought if a target for Stifle presents itself. It's not as if the rest of the deck ceases to function with a set of Trinket Mages, Stifle and a single Dreadnought in the deck.

Aggro-control easily assimilates Stifle, Trinket Mage and the Dreadnought, so you can add the Dreadnought to any deck with Stifle if you do so intelligently.

Edit: Even with a deck based on Stifle and Dreadnought, it's not rocket science to determine whether or not Stifling the target is worth a dead Dreadnought now or in the future.

@Nydeli, Dizzy Spell isn't that awful, it's a Grim Tutor for either combo piece, a Healing Salve, a combat trick, a Time Walk against Goblin Lackey and can find Pithing Needle. It's not an awesome set, but it's not an awful singleton either.

frogboy
07-12-2007, 03:03 AM
I suggesting adding 4 Trinket Mage and 1 Dreadnought in a deck with just Stifle.

you're not helping your case here.

BreathWeapon
07-12-2007, 04:05 AM
you're not helping your case here.

Care to elaborate? Considering Phantom agreed with the assessment, I fail to see the clear implications of how this statement is some how flawed. Most Threshold lists, if you can even call them Threshold any more, don't play that differently with Trinket Mage, Counterbalance, Sensei's Top and Stifle already and Bomberman and Cephalid Breakfast lists certainly don't play any differently with those cards. It really isn't that difficult to integrate the combo into aggro-control by using the synergy that's already there, so I really fail to see your point here.

Nihil Credo
07-12-2007, 04:18 AM
Aether Vial, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Stifle...

...playing Chalice of the Void becomes more delightfully sadistic every day :wink:

Cait_Sith
07-12-2007, 07:09 AM
Aether Vial, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Stifle...

...playing Chalice of the Void becomes more delightfully sadistic every day :wink:

Okay, one good card, one bad card, and one situational card. I think Chalice is gonna need more than that.

4eak
07-12-2007, 08:26 AM
Can someone address the point of your two card combo being countered by Swords to Plowshares?


I guess I'm going to ask you to elaborate on your point. Why? I can't think of too many combo's that aren't "countered" by a commonly played control card. So, for example, it would seem odd to me to question a combo directly because Force of Will counters it. There would have to be more to the equation for me to question the viability of a combo than "this card counters it".

The point is: A combo is not a dead one because there is a commonly played "counter" to the combo. I've seen far too many combo decks play through hate to think that combo is inviable because there is a way to disrupt it.

Now, it is clear that StP and FoW are barriers to this combo's success. It is up the the deck builder to work around that. This might mean running Duress/Therapy and our own permission.

Of course, I'm not saying PD+Stifle or Fling is viable. What I am saying is that I doubt that StP alone is the reason this combo might be inviable. And, even given StP, this combo does put huge pressure on the opponent as it only takes 2 swings or a swing and a fling (hehe) to win.

2 cards and 2-3 mana for a threat like PD is obviously powerful. Separately, stifle effects are decently useful while the PD is unusable. Having a combo piece that is unplayable by itself is definitely a problem. However, with even basic card quality effects (tutor/cantrip) and the addition of Fling, we do eliminate much of the average duration we have a PD sitting dead in our hand.



peace,
4eak

tivadar
07-12-2007, 08:32 AM
I'd actually be less worried about STP/FoW, which I think are pretty much the staples for combo counter. What concerns me more is that the combo is also countered by Chalice@1, EE, and artifact hate (hooligan). At least reanimator got around most of these problems, though it's not nearly as fast as this.

Also, to mention, a big advantage of this over something like reanimator is the fact that it doesn't rely on the graveyard at all. A lot of the hate in the format is directed towards the graveyard right now...

Nightmare
07-12-2007, 08:36 AM
Not that I want to get into another heated debate with you, 4eak, but most of the combos that lose to Force of Will, you know, win the game if your opponent doesn't have said Force of Will. This puts a 12/12 non hastey Artifact Creature (The easiest card type to deal with) into play. This is easier for me to deal with than 12 Empty the Warrens tokens on turn 1, and you need the god-hand to drop him that early. I'm just not that impressed, is all.

4eak
07-12-2007, 09:06 AM
Not that I want to get into another heated debate with you, 4eak, but most of the combos that lose to Force of Will, you know, win the game if your opponent doesn't have said Force of Will. This puts a 12/12 non hastey Artifact Creature (The easiest card type to deal with) into play. This is easier for me to deal with than 12 Empty the Warrens tokens on turn 1, and you need the god-hand to drop him that early. I'm just not that impressed, is all.

This is a much different argument than just saying it dies to StP. =)

Unlike dismissing the combo because of a single piece of hate, we could be more constructive in our argument if we would show how all the hate factors and problems of this combo will cumulatively eliminate the incentive to play this combo.

So yes, there are more problems to consider than "it dies to StP". I suppose I was looking for a response that gave a better explanation as to what could make the PD-combo inviable. Here, these are some of the reasons I think the combo may not be viable:

1.) Artifact destruction
2.) "Destroy creature" effects (this isn't DSC after all)
3.) StP
4.) Permission (including CotV)
5.) Living long enough to even use and abuse this combo (perhaps it doesn't come online quick enough)
6.) Requiring 2 undisrupted turns after the combo is played (combos really want to win now...not 2 turns later---think of oath here)
7.) Discard (hits your 2nd combo card, and you are in trouble)
8.) An unplayable combo piece (PD must have a 2nd card to be useful at all)
9.) 1-trick pony syndrome
10.) The inability to make full use of mana-accelerants in the format
11.) The difficulty in making a fully synergistic 60 card deck that revolves around this combo (unlike some combo decks which can snowball-win with each cog of the deck working together).
12.) The opportunity cost of not abusing other combo cards (notably EtW, which is fairly broken in Legacy)

Don't get me wrong, as I posted before, I'm not saying this combo is viable. I am saying that StP doesn't make it inviable; it is actually the sum of a much greater set of problems that would lead to this combo's inviability.

peace,
4eak

Finn
07-12-2007, 10:29 AM
Mr. N, you also have to consider that in order to get those 12 goblins, the entire deck must focus on it while the 'naught decks have ample chances to be made far more reslient.

tivadar
07-12-2007, 10:37 AM
Ok, you really can in no way compare this to a TES deck. The strategies are completely different, and while both have creature kills, the relative strength/number of the creatures is completely different as well.

Honestly, if you'd like to make a comparison, do the reanimator comparison. How is this better/worse than that? Reanimator was fairly competitive. Its main issue was its speed. TES and the like could beat it to a kill, and its control elements were somewhat lacking. However, it did have the resilience that typically targetted creature removal didn't work on it (assuming you went the SSS route). Here, the kill is much quicker. As early as T3 really. But you're now susceptible to STP and the like. Against things like TES, this is a huge win. Against things like Goblins, it is not.

Nightmare
07-12-2007, 10:41 AM
Mr. N, you also have to consider that in order to get those 12 goblins, the entire deck must focus on it while the 'naught decks have ample chances to be made far more reslient.By using Trinket Mage (but not Chalice) and 4+ Stifles? On top of that, those Stifles are used on their own cards, and not my fetchlands? I'll take that.


Ok, you really can in no way compare this to a TES deck. The strategies are completely different, and while both have creature kills, the relative strength/number of the creatures is completely different as well.I was comparing the relative ease of dealing with the win condition. There is nothing wrong with that comparison.


Honestly, if you'd like to make a comparison, do the reanimator comparison. How is this better/worse than that?Why not. Reanimator basically sucks, not because of speed, or yard hate, but because it's a two+ card combo that does nothing more than put a fat dude on the board. Compare it to thresh, which spends :1::g: to do the same thing.

4eak
07-12-2007, 10:50 AM
Ok, you really can in no way compare this to a TES deck. The strategies are completely different, and while both have creature kills, the relative strength/number of the creatures is completely different as well.

There is an opportunity cost for playing one deck and not another. Decks are comparable by definition. Nightmare offered (maybe not explicity enough) a comparison based upon the comparative advantage that 12 1/1's have to the PD-combo. Obviously, he didn't go into detail. While he may be right or wrong about his conclusions, his attempt to compare the strengths and weaknesses of two decks is exactly what we should be doing.

You must constantly be asking yourself, why play this deck instead of that one? The reasons for why you would choose one and not another have everything to do with the offense/defense ratios of each deck, card interactions, and all metagame factors.

peace,
4eak

Phantom
07-12-2007, 11:41 AM
I wasn't suggesting adding 4 Dreadnought in a deck with just Stifle, I suggesting adding 4 Trinket Mage and 1 Dreadnought in a deck with just Stifle.


Care to elaborate? Considering Phantom agreed with the assessment, I fail to see the clear implications of how this statement is some how flawed.

I can see how you thought that, but I was actually saying that it MIGHT be decent to add one Dreadnought to a deck already running Stifle AND Trinket Mage (Note that there are no competitive decks that do this as of now).

kirdape3
07-12-2007, 12:14 PM
You guys are thinking awfully fairly, and even still the traditional unfair combo isn't that good. Pandemonium plus Dreadnought x2 or Dreadnought plus Reanimate is actually lethal, but it's not particularly stable (I'd surmise rather less so than just shoving into Affinity which makes a lot of sense to me). Using Trinket Mage and Stifle seems like a waste of two good cards just to get a 12/12 trampler in play, who isn't that easy to defend.

tivadar
07-12-2007, 01:16 PM
I was comparing the relative ease of dealing with the win condition. There is nothing wrong with that comparison.

I understand that. And you're completely right, ETW is a much stronger win condition than PD will ever be. However, you can't look at that in a vacuum. In order to use ETW, you're essentially building a deck around it and losing 3-4x cards when playing it. In order to play PD, you don't need to do this, and you're only losing 1-2x cards (Trinket Mage). Essentially, you're right, TES wins games if your opponent has FoW, but it also loses games if they do. This is not the situation here.

I offered up Reanimator as a fair comparison because that's generally what it aims to do as well, spend 1-2x cards to put a single big creature on the board.

Nightmare
07-12-2007, 01:39 PM
I offered up Reanimator as a fair comparison because that's generally what it aims to do as well, spend 1-2x cards to put a single big creature on the board.And my point is, that's a piss-poor strategy in a format so well-equipped to deal with a single creature threat.

BreathWeapon
07-12-2007, 03:05 PM
And my point is, that's a piss-poor strategy in a format so well-equipped to deal with a single creature threat.

It's not as if the format is full of answers to a 12/12 artifact creature, look at the range of the decks that just lose to a threat of that nature once it resolves. Most aggro-control decks lose to Balance/Top long before losing to the Dreadnought any way.

A Reanimator deck that gets to replace the Reanimates with Stifle and Trickbind, eliminate the need for an outlet and support Force of Will, is going to be an improvement on a pre-existing archetype. Mono-U control can just use Phyrexian Dreadnought as Thirst for Knowledge fuel and treat the combo as a finisher or a way to overwhelm aggro. If you stop evaluating the card in a vacuum, you'll start to see how versatile it is. Even just SBing in Dreadnoughts in a deck with Stifle radically changes any match up.

Nightmare
07-12-2007, 03:12 PM
It's not as if the format is full of answers to a 12/12 artifact creature,You mean aside from the decks that are running Swords to Plowshares, Engineered Explosives, Chalice of the Void, Krosan Grip, Ancient Grudge, Vindicate, Chain of Vapor, Wrath of God.... do I need to go on?


look at the range of the decks that just lose to a threat of that nature once it resolves.Deadguy.


Most aggro-control decks lose to Balance/Top long before losing to the Dreadnought any way. Then play Top/Balance. This isn't a justification for Dreadnaught, it's a justification for Top/Balance.


A Reanimator deck that gets to replace the Reanimates with Stifle and Trickbind, eliminate the need for an outlet and support Force of Will, it's going to be an improvement on a pre-existing archetype.We call this deck Tog, and it sucks in this format.


Mono-U control can just use Phyrexian Dreadnought as Thirst for Knowledge Fuel and treat the combo as a finisher or a way to overwhelm aggro. If you stop evaluating the card in a vacuum, you'll start to see how versatile it is. Even just SBing in Dreadnoughts radically changes any match up.If you stop evaluating this combo as some sort of win-the-game strategy, and realize it isn't Flash, you can be more objective about how easily the format can handle a 1 mana, 2 card 12/12.

BreathWeapon
07-12-2007, 04:43 PM
You mean aside from the decks that are running Swords to Plowshares, Engineered Explosives, Chalice of the Void, Krosan Grip, Ancient Grudge, Vindicate, Chain of Vapor, Wrath of God.... do I need to go on?

Deadguy.

Then play Top/Balance. This isn't a justification for Dreadnaught, it's a justification for Top/Balance.

We call this deck Tog, and it sucks in this format.

If you stop evaluating this combo as some sort of win-the-game strategy, and realize it isn't Flash, you can be more objective about how easily the format can handle a 1 mana, 2 card 12/12.

1) No one is arguing that there aren't decks with answers for Dreadnought, if there weren't decks with answers for Dreadnought then we wouldn't even be debating how good Dreadnought is.

2) More like all of the aggro decks in the format, even Goblins isn't that great at resolving a Tin-Street Hooligan in the face of Force of Will, Daze and up to 8 Stifle effects. Deadguy has Vindiciate, Swords to Plowshares and disruption, so I'm not even certain how it qualifies as a deck that loses if a Dreadnought resolves.

3) Of course it's an argument for Dreadnought, if Dreadnought can be added into a shell that dominates the aggro-control mirror by using the pre-existing synergies of Counterbalance, Sensei's Divining Top, Trinket Mage and Stifle (something akin to Trinket Angel), how could it not be an argument for Dreadnought?

4) What does Tog have to do with Reanimator? Alpha striking with a Berserked Tog isn't even comparable to resolving a Stifled Dreadnought.

5) Assuming I'm not being objective, I could argue the same from the people that haven't said a single thing on Dreadnought's behalf other than "OMG, Swords to Plowshares!" I wasn't arguing that Dreadnought was identical to Flash, i.e a combo deck that wins the game as soon as it resolves its threat, I was arguing that the errata was of a similar nature and would cause the format to re-evaluate itself. Even if Dreadnought just becomes a SB card to create transformational aggro-control-combo strategies for decks with Stifle, that's still a tremendous impact from a single errata (and not so dissimilar from those that used 4 Flash, 4 Protean Hulk, 1 Kiki, Karmic and Feeder as a transformational SB albeit more efficient)

No one is arguing that the format can't handle an artifact creature, compared to Empty the Warrens it's a lot easier to handle, but it doesn't require the deck to be built around it or commit to it either. Presuming that the presence of an answer deters a threat from being viable isn't an adequate counter argument. It's not as if Swords to Plowshares against Phyrexian Dreadnought is on the same level of deterance as Leyline of the Void against Ichorid, W for a two for one that gives the opponent 12 life isn't even close to a free, uncounterable and pre-emptive answer disabling an entire deck. The card isn't going to cause the distortions of Flash, since the answers to it are pre-existant in the MDs/SBs of the format, but that doesn't mean the threat is insignificant.

People are going to build around Dreadnought, people are going to splash Dreadnought, people are going to SB in Dreadnought and regardless of whether or not it's going to be "Tier 1," it's going to be a relevant addition to the format. You can't just dismiss Dreadnought out of hand as if it was an irrelevant errata. It has to be one of the cheapest Gifts piles I've seen to date if nothing else.

TeenieBopper
07-12-2007, 04:56 PM
People are going to deal with Dreadnought the same way they deal with 10 land stompy. They're going to beat it anyways because it sucks.

frogboy
07-12-2007, 06:03 PM
2) More like all of the aggro decks in the format, even Goblins isn't that great at resolving a Tin-Street Hooligan in the face of Force of Will, Daze and up to 8 Stifle effects.

what happens if Goblins just compliments you on your 12/12 and kills you?


3) Of course it's an argument for Dreadnought, if Dreadnought can be added into a shell that dominates the aggro-control mirror by using the pre-existing synergies of Counterbalance, Sensei's Divining Top, Trinket Mage and Stifle (something akin to Trinket Angel), how could it not be an argument for Dreadnought?

Because usually people are concerned about making their bad matchups better, not getting more percentage in matchups they are already ahead in. There are exceptions to that, but this isn't one of them.


People are going to build around Dreadnought, people are going to splash Dreadnought, people are going to SB in Dreadnought and regardless of whether or not it's going to be "Tier 1," it's going to be a relevant addition to the format.

People are going to spend three or four turns assembling a two card combo. Then they will cast it and say go. Then they will attack and say go. Then they will attack and if their opponent hasn't affected the board or their hand or disrupted their "combo" by turn six they will win the game.

Uh, nice deck.

BreathWeapon
07-12-2007, 07:13 PM
1) Assuming Force of Will, Daze, Stifle and a resolved Dreadnought alone aren'tt enough to stop Goblins from going off, spot and mass removal are just as much of an option for Dreadnought decks as Tarmogoyf decks. There's no guarantee that Goblins wont overrun a Tarmogoyf or any other threat on the board either, and it's an empty argument when you don't know what the other 52 cards in the deck are.

2) So Dreadnought doesn't shore up the aggro match up? I fail to see how adding Dreadnought is intended to affect the aggro-control, control or combo match ups as a win more card. Maybe as an "oops, I win card," but those match ups should be coming down to Balance/Top and the draw engine.

3) People are going to start with Stifle and Dreadnought in their hand around 1/5 games or start with Stifle or Dreadnought in their hand around 1/2 games and get either a first turn Brainstorm, Portent or Serum Visions and 1.5 draws to find the other combo piece before turn 2 around 1/3 games after that (not counting mulligans). You aren't guaranteed to race aggro with that alone, but the odds are reasonable, and disruption has to be factored in after that.

Note: I realize those statistics are off, but the point is that the deck can hit Stifle and Dreadnought on turn two well before your "3 to 4 turn" claim.

Aggro-control with a fundamental turn of four isn't that awful, and depending on the redundancy, tutors and acceleration five isn't that bad either.

You can build decks just around the Dreadnought, but most decks with Dreadnought have other game plans to go with it. I really don't know what lists your basing your judgments on, so arguing the point is just going around in circles until anything really solidifies. This is just getting inane, we could dredge up arguments against LED and counters with the same vacuum logic.

kirdape3
07-12-2007, 08:49 PM
I think you're overstating the effect that a solitary 12/12 for U1 and two cards will have. Not every deck is going to care about your creature; in fact, several of them are more fearful of the secondary card in the equation (Stifle) than they are the random creature. Those decks that might care about your 12/12 have enough ways to remove it (or to bag the two for one by countering the Stifle on the spot) to make that plan not as efficient as the existing alternatives.

If you want to run Dreadnought, it's entirely possible to do so in an Affinity shell, where you can just ship a Plated creature. But if you have a creature with Nim-ness, why hasn't the game been functionally decided already?

HPC
07-12-2007, 10:23 PM
A Dreadnought combo deck isn't defensible because the win condition doesn't stand up as well as others in the format. Dreadnought isn't a diverse and powerful win condition like Storm so it will never be a Tier 1 combo as long as Storm remains difficult to disrupt. Unless the DCI unbans Illusionary Mask or comes up with other cards that would allow a player to diversify a deck with Dreadnought in it, it is not a viable combo option.

So does Dreadnought replace any cards in current decks? I'm replacing my 1x Mystic Enforcer with a Dreadnought because I'm already running Stifle main. I'll know this weekend, But in my opinion it's a positive trade-off. By the time UGw Thresh is ready to cast a Mystic Enforcer the game is often times locked up or you've already won. Rarely will Mystic Enforcer turn around games that you're losing. Dreadnought is slightly more vulnerable than Mystic Enforcer, but it can come down much earlier and under tighter mana constraints making it a better choice against Goblins and faster combo decks while still allowing you to break though a stalemate late game. A Mystic Enforcer in an opening hand is always worthless, but a Dreadnought allows for the possibility of an early game fatty that doesn't rely on the graveyard or at the very least a +2/+2 pump to your Goyf.

So Dreadnought is potentially a good replacement for your 60th card. Especially if you're already running 3-4 Stifle. Now can you make the same argument if you had to replace your 52nd or 56th though 60th cards with Stifle and Dreadnought? Probably not. But as long as Stifle remains relevant as a main deck card, and it will as long as Storm is in the mix, Dreadnought offers a potential replacement for your 60th card. Not format breaking, but a nice addition to some decks.

frogboy
07-13-2007, 02:58 AM
hint: the reason Stifle is good is not because it enables random fatties.

Nihil Credo
07-13-2007, 09:23 AM
Unless you're abusing Pandemonium, is it that good to spend 1U and two specific cards to get a 12/12 trampler when you could spend 1G and a single card to get a ~5/6 guy?

tivadar
07-13-2007, 09:58 AM
Against anything that doesn't have artifact hate or explosives, yes. STP by your opponent gives you +12 life and he's out of burn range. He's basically as good as two 5/6 guys, better actually, so yes, he's worth two cards. Sure, it's conditional, and I don't recommend running 4, but running 1-2 when you've already got the shell for it, as HPC is trying, hardly seems like a bad idea.

My stance on this is I don't advocate it as a combo-piece so much as an added internal synergy in decks that can already support it.

scrumdogg
07-13-2007, 12:37 PM
There will be a deck (or possibly more than 1 deck) that focuses on Dreadnought...and they might be good. There will be a lot decks that can use Dreadnought as a supplemental strategy, and presenting your opponent with yet another path to victory they have to stop is not a bad thing. To date, I find myself agreeing most strongly with kirdape (which never happens...) :cool: in that Affinity provides the strongest shell. We can (and should) argue specifics in the Affinity thread(s) but it is an artifact....which fits with the theme of the rest of the deck & can take advantage of cards they already play (or potentially play) like Vial, the equipment (btw, an equipped creature is a fine target to sacrifice if you have a Vial in play & they destroy your equipment as you would be losing the bonus anyway), DC, etc. The point isn't that PD is going to inundate & wreck the format (like Flash) but how can it best be utilized?

alcaeus
06-02-2008, 06:01 PM
Could someone please dismiss Vision Charm, as a 'stifle'-option, thanx!

It does cost one mana less than trickbind, keeps the naught away till you can pay for more countermagic, and opens up an avenue for artifact/affinity synergetic effects.

Not claiming that Vision Charm is better than stifle & trickbind, but it should be listed on this thread.

kabal
06-02-2008, 06:52 PM
Could someone please dismiss Vision Charm, as a 'stifle'-option, thanx!




And i love Vision Charm,

- cheats nought into play
- protects the nought against removal
- its a timewalk when played in the opponents upkeep
- when you really search an option/CBtarget and cannot find it with Brainstorm/Top just put the top 4 cards into the graveyard.
- and whenever you find a nought with 4x stifle & 3-4x Charm you can be sure that the nought is not a dead card. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8595&page=3#47)

Vision Charm seems OK but it just seems weaker than Trickbind in the ways of getting out Dreadnought. I have seen some people let a Dreanought resolve trying to get a 2-for-1 by countering the Stifle, and then cry when they see you tap two mana and play a Trickbind.

Di
06-02-2008, 07:00 PM
Yay for necro. Not.