[Spoiled] Lorwyn Cards

[CynicalSquirrel]

It seems a bit early, but we already have our first Lorwyn card, and it seems very good. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=53252&stc=1&d=1184637069

Shriekmaw 4B
Creature -- Elemental (U)
Fear
When Shriekmaw comes into play, destroy target nonartifact, nonblack creature.
Evoke 1B (You may play this spell for its Evoke cost. If you do, it's sacrificed when it comes into play.)
3/2

Seems really good to me, particularly in Survival. It's definitely worth testing over Bone Shredder in RGb Survival and any other variant with black as the answer to Tarmogoyf and other creatures out of FTK range. The evoke mechanic in general seems really intriguing, and could give Survival the boost it needs.

[raharu]

I like it. Very nice, but if they don't watch it, they might accidentally but survival over the top... Scary thought.

[scrumdogg]

The fact that you can Survival it up & play it as an instant is nice, but as a creature it is fairly expensive (and fragile). How many decks play hasty Tarmogoyfs that this becomes significantly better than Bone Shredder (which hangs around to chumpblock & flies)?

[Atwa]

I'd propably play it in my Goyf list (for testing).

You basicly have a terror with kicker to give you a 3/2 with fear. I've seen worse cards.

[Windux]

I don't see any word, which says that the creature or the ability Evoke has Flash.
So it's still at sorcery speed ;)

I don't think it's too good. You got BoneShredder which is 1 mana more expensive.
So nothing really newand over the top.

[scrumdogg]

Until we get the official wording on Evoke we won't know but there are several strong indicators that you will be able to Evoke at instant speed. One is the card that this emulates, Terror, is an instant & would be significantly worse as a sorcery. Flash is it's own ability, they aren't going to keyword a keyword, if you see what I'm saying. Secondly, there is a precedent for having sorcery speed cards with instant abilities - the equipment cycle from the Mirrodin Block. Horny Hat, Cranial Plating & the others could be equipped for colorless as normal equipment or be instantly attached for a colored mana requirement....pretty much the same scenario as Evoke, imo, which could make Evoke a very cool ability if all the creatures/hosts aren't completely overcosted for their 'normal' incarnation (we also get to see it over the entire block, which is nice).

@atwa: Bone Shredder has flying, Phyrexian Terror Boy here has (apparently) Fear. Six of one, half dozen of the other in terms of evasion but if I have to use it as a blocker I would much prefer to have flying.

[Atwa]

You are right, I read it a little too hasty

[Tao]

Windux is right, I think. Alternate costing and casting mechanisms didn't gave any spell or creature spell flash in the past. See Convoke, Flashback, Morph.

[scrumdogg]

Windux is right, I think. Alternate costing and casting mechanisms didn't gave any spell or creature spell flash in the past. See Convoke, Flashback, Morph.

He may very well be correct, but I suspect (and hope) that he is not. Also, of your examples: Convoke merely goes to cost - why would it speed up the spell as well? Flashback would be a serious headache (and would have been much heavier costed) if it allowed sorceries to be instant speed in the graveyard. Morph does essentially allow the actual creature to appear 'instantly'...at the risk of having to spend :3: to drop it into play beforehand. One more point in support of Evoke being (hopefully) at instant speed, the creature may CIP but you have to sac it....essentially making it either spell analogue or forcing you to have ways around the sac requirement (spending more resources for....how many Evoke cards).

[tivadar]

I think it's far more likely to be sorcery (or "creature") speed. Assuming the image is the actual card image, I know wizards is bending over backwards to not have confusing text on their cards (ala all the old rules restorations). I can't imagine them printing a ruling that would allow a creature to be played as an instant, have reminder text on the card, and not have the words "at any time you could play an instant". Sorry guys, but sorcery speed terror, which isn't to say it's completely terrible.

[Atwa]

Being at sorcery speed alone doesn't make it awefull.

Remeber that Chainer's Edict also sees play, but I've only once seen it's flashback played. Still some people are playing it over Diabolic Edict.

[greenmage]

Is a nice spell on its own and combos nicely with genesis.

I think it might see play somwhere.

[RoddyVR]

At first i'd have assumed like scrumdogg that that ability gives flash to the card, but just realized that in that case this thing is just a purely better version of terror, and since terror hasnt exactly been phased out for being underpowered its unlikely they'd make a strictly better replacement.

As a Sorcery Terror with the ability to give you a creature to boot if you can afford it, it seems more equal in powerlevel. If Evoke gave the things flash, then a lot of them would have to be overcosted to make the cards fair, and they wouldnt be able to put sorcery speed cards/effects onto these things without horribly overcosting them...

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

How many decks play hasty Tarmogoyfs that this becomes significantly better than Bone Shredder (which hangs around to chumpblock & flies)?

If you pay 2B + 2B for echo...

Also, his clock is 3 of Bone-Shredder's.

[Tacosnape]

Bone Shredder sticks around to flashback a Cabal Therapy, too.

[scrumdogg]

If you pay 2B + 2B for echo...

Also, his clock is 3 of Bone-Shredder's.

You obviously only block that turn unless you are really desperate....but the fact that you have a disposable blocker (or a very nice flashback Therapy target as Tacosnape noted) is fine as you've reached 4 mana with an active SotF, which means your opponent playing creatures should be in a world of hurt from there on out.

[Peter_Rotten]

Depending on what other Envoke cards they print, Living Wish may turn into the new Burning Wish.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

This actually isn't difficult at all. You can play a turn two survival, then tutor this up and play it turn three. You cannot do this with Bone Shredder without Birds. Erego, this one is better.

Also, the ability clearly works at sorcery speed, nor is there reason to suspect that, after just deciding to reprint Terror in a core set, they would want to obsolete it.

Also, Crystal Shard for the win?

[tivadar]

Hmm, something's odd here...

"You may play this spell for its Evoke cost. If you do, it's sacrificed when it comes into play."

Is it just me or would Wizards word this "Sacrifice it when it comes into play"? Was this supposed to be the actual card? Where's the source?

[Pinder]

Also, Crystal Shard for the win?

Please. There has to be something better than that to bounce it with. I mean, really. And I highly, highly doubt that the ability is inherently instant speed. We don't actually have rules text, but from what's up there it just says that you can play the spell for the evoke cost. Think of it like Suspend. Just like you can only suspend something when you could play the spell, I'm also assuming that you can only evoke something when you could play the spell.

Also, this seems pretty nifty with things that trigger on creatures coming into play. I mean, with a Pandemonium (perhaps not the most viable example, but you know). 3 damage plus nuke a dude isn't half bad for 1B, eh?

edit: Do we not have the mana symbols, anymore?

[Barook]

How can you argue about the speed of Evoke? :confused: It's basically an alternative cost and the wording is quite clear.

[Lego]

This card does look pretty poorly templated. Does no one else think so?

[Pale Moon FTW]

The wording is clearly wrong. The "if you do it's sacrificed" part isn't correct wording since a permanent can only be sacrificed by a player it should be "if you do, sacrifice it". Only a minor incident though, but it shows that they're not done with the wording and might change more of it (but I still doubt it'll be reworded to instant-speed).

[Samshire]

I hope this is real, there are so many possibilities that they can do with this mechanic. Seeing this preview makes me wonder what they would do with other colors (assuming that Evoke isn't just black). I would like to see a cheap blue 'cantrip' like creature, seems like it would be good for goyf in thresh. But I doubt that they would print something like that.

[Zilla]

Doesn't seem confusing to me. The wording on Evoke states that you can play the spell for its Evoke cost. The spell is a creature, and can hence only be played when you could play a creature. It's not rocket surgery.

[Bovinious]

It's not rocket surgery.

I LOL'D

[raharu]

It's not rocket surgery.

WOW!

At any rate, I think that this mechanic could be very nice in a few decks, obviously survival, but I think that in the other colors, this will be very good. Maybe in some sort of reanimator deck? If the cantrip creature is made and it's not ridiculously overcosted (I haven't seen many good cantrips in the newer sets...), it might be very good. Overall, I like this mechanic, as a whole and I'm interested to see what else is done with it.

[Pale Moon FTW]

I really hope this mechanic actually gets stuck to some cards. I remember seeing gravestorm and delve in the future sight spoiler thinking "These mechanics are busted" (or at least interesting) and then they printed like 3 cards with each ability :frown: (actually I think there's only a single gravestorm card).

[scrumdogg]

I really hope this mechanic actually gets stuck to some cards. I remember seeing gravestorm and delve in the future sight spoiler thinking "These mechanics are busted" (or at least interesting) and then they printed like 3 cards with each ability :frown: (actually I think there's only a single gravestorm card).

One of the main reasons to be happy that this mechanic starts in the large set of the block. Small set mechanics (especially 3rd set mechanics) tend to get screwed hard. Since there will be 4 sets next year broken into two mini-blocks it will be interesting to see how that works out in terms of mechanics.

[Nihil Credo]

The wording is clearly wrong. The "if you do it's sacrificed" part isn't correct wording since a permanent can only be sacrificed by a player it should be "if you do, sacrifice it". Only a minor incident though, but it shows that they're not done with the wording and might change more of it (but I still doubt it'll be reworded to instant-speed).
I noticed that too. It sounds like some Tempest-era wording. But the spoiled card is actually a scan, which is kind of weird.

As for the card, I've hardcast Street Wraiths in the past, I'll be happy to play this over Edicts.

[Maveric78f]

I have a theory about the wording :
- it's in the reminder text. The reminder text has never been as precise as rules themselves. I remember the convoke reminder text that did not precise that you could tap only your own creatures.
- they may have enabled weak combos of exchanging the creature in response to the sacrifice (juxtapose played in instant speed for instance). Eventually, they had to say "its controller sacrifice it".

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Please. There has to be something better than that to bounce it with. I mean, really.

NINJA-STRIKE!

Also combos nicely with Grave Scrabbler. Which further combos with Linessa. And those are Ninja colors. I smell synergy cooking.

[Di]

Shriekmaw 4B
Creature -- Elemental (U)
Fear
When Shriekmaw comes into play, destroy target nonartifact, nonblack creature.
Evoke 1B (You may play this spell for its Evoke cost. If you do, it's sacrificed when it comes into play.)
3/2

I think I may already be shitting myself. He is infinitely better than Bone Shredder. Infinitely. Cheaper, can be recurred every turn with Genesis, can beat in a pinch. Man, he is hawt.

EDIT: Corrected my svg typos.

[Nightmare]

This guy kills Lackey on the play. What's not to like?

[SillyMetalGAT]

One of the main reasons to be happy that this mechanic starts in the large set of the block. Small set mechanics (especially 3rd set mechanics) tend to get screwed hard.


Umm Storm in Scouge?

[Pinder]

Umm Storm in Scouge?

His point still stands. There were, what two good cards from Scourge with Storm? And really, Brain Freeze really only fits in certain types of deck, so the only really solid spell with storm is Tendrils (well, and EtW, but that didn't happen till Time Spiral, where Storm was incidentally a first set mechanic :P).


I think I may already be shitting myself. He is infinately better than Bone Shredder. Infinately

No, infinitely. Just sayin'.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

His point still stands. There were, what two good cards from Scourge with Storm? And really, Brain Freeze really only fits in certain types of deck, so the only really solid spell with storm is Tendrils (well, and EtW, but that didn't happen till Time Spiral, where Storm was incidentally a first set mechanic :P).

It's kind of a random point, since there's been very few third set mechanics at all, at least setting aside Future Sight, for obvious reasons, and Dissension because of the guild models. Storm had, out of 12 total cards with the mechanic;

Tendrils & Brain Freeze: Obvious.
Hunting Pack: Was featured as a Wish target in both sides of a Worlds final.
Dragonstorm: Dominated Standard for six months.
Wing Shards: Dominated Block, Legacy playable, and was heavily influential in Standard before the rise of Raffinity.
Mind's Desire: Heavily influential in Extended, busted in Vintage, has never been Legacy legal.
Reaping the Graves: Has seen limited play and has a ton of potential in some deck.
Astral Steel, Scattershot, Sprouting Vines and Temporal Fissure: You've got me. On the other hand, all of these were good to ridiculous in Limited.

2/3rds of the mechanic being tournament level, and at least one third being insanely good, is a much higher than normal ratio for any mechanic. Storm was just inherently busted, even outside of Two Headed Giant. (I note that it was also tied for the very first third set mechanic ever made, hence the randomness of this argument).

Scry and Channel aren't bad either, although the latter hasn't been tapped very far at all. But it's a cool mechanic that deserves more limelight than this Evoke thing. Certainly it deserved to be in TSP block more than effing Flanking.

[ReAnimated]

You forgot Ignite Memories but it's all good.

[KillemallCFH]

He was only talking about cards with storm that appeared in Scourge.

[Pinder]

Dragonstorm
Mind's Desire


Oops, I suppose I forgot about those because they weren't Legacy playable/legal. I guess Storm is really the most busted mechanic out there.



Scry and Channel aren't bad either, although the latter hasn't been tapped very far at all. But it's a cool mechanic that deserves more limelight than this Evoke thing.

You actually have a good point there. What exactly makes Evoke not just a crappy version of Channel? I mean, Channel is more expandable, and it's instant speed...so yeah, Channel > Evoke. It's just too bad it came out in Kamigawa, where it sucked. Hard.

And Scry is just a fantastic mechanic. It's up there as one of my very favorites.

[Tacosnape]

Well for one thing, assuming Evoke's sacrifice is triggered, this means the creature hits play and gives you a chance to do something with it before it goes away.

EDIT: I should say permanent, not creature. This could technically be a mechanic for artifacts or enchantments too.

[Pinder]

You have a point there, I suppose. But what exactly are you going to do with it? Sac it to Greater Good?

[Di]

Tradewind Rider flexxxxxxxx.

[Pinder]

Tradewind Rider flexxxxxxxx.

And if I'm not mistaken, you can tap the Shriekmaw to the Rider's ability, too. I stand corrected, that is pretty hawt.

[Machinus]

Tradewind Rider flexxxxxxxx.

I think it's templated like that so you can't respond to the sacrifice.

[Barook]

I think it's templated like that so you can't respond to the sacrifice.

It's "when", not "as". The way it's worded, it has a CIP trigger, allowing you to do all kinds of stuff before it dies.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Or maybe they just decided to change the templating on that kind of mechanic.

[Nihil Credo]

Momentary Blink... has anyone ever looked into that card for Legacy? It doesn't seem half bad.

[Maveric78f]

Crystal Shard looks like its best friend.

Tarmogoyf will like this mechanism too if it applies on tribal/enchantments/plane... cards.

[Weekend Daddy]

This guy + Flicker = 2 dead creatures....I think

[tivadar]

Momentary Blink... has anyone ever looked into that card for Legacy? It doesn't seem half bad.

Believe me, I have, the issue is that it's really too slow/costly in anything but a control deck, and control decks don't generally run a lot of creatures. I suppose, however, this mechanic could change that. Hmm, death and taxes?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Does anyone else notice that it looks outstandingly not like an elemental? I hope elemental isn't the new catch all creature type like beast was.


What exactly makes Evoke not just a crappy version of Channel?
Pandemonium

[Barook]

Does anyone else notice that it looks outstandingly not like an elemental? I hope elemental isn't the new catch all creature type like beast was.

Considering there is a 5-colored precon called "Path of the Elements" (or something silly like that), you'll be disappointed:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=52947&d=1184014705

[zulander]

Hi, my name is Grave Pact and I just two-for-oned you with bad cards. GG.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Considering there is a 5-colored precon called "Path of the Elements" (or something silly like that), you'll be disappointed:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=52947&d=1184014705
The one on the box does look like an elemental. It isn't just some swamp thing with eyes on it's lower jaw.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

The current wording doesn't look triggered to me. It's not "When it comes into play, sacrifice it", it's "Sacrifice it when it comes into play".

[Pinder]

The current wording doesn't look triggered to me. It's not "When it comes into play, sacrifice it", it's "Sacrifice it when it comes into play".

I hope it's triggered, because:



This guy + Flicker = 2 dead creatures....I think


Actually, if it's triggered, I'm pretty sure you would get two guys dead, plus a 3/2 beater with Fear. If I'm not mistaken, it counts as a new creature when it comes back into play, and since you didn't pay the Evoke cost, you wouldn't have to sac it. The downside of this is that it would be in a deck where you'd have to run Flicker.

This is of course, assuming that the ability is triggered. But why wouldn't it be? I mean, if you can't respond to it, then it really is just a crappy version of Channel, becuase it's always going to be played at sorcery speed, and you're never going to be able to get a permanent out of it.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

This is of course, assuming that the ability is triggered. But why wouldn't it be? I mean, if you can't respond to it, then it really is just a crappy version of Channel, becuase it's always going to be played at sorcery speed, and you're never going to be able to get a permanent out of it.

It's all ready just a crappy version of channel. It has difference you can exploit either way the ruling turns out, but strictly speaking, being triggered doesn't make it not a crappy version of channel.

But since Channel had one marginably playable card to go with it, it's a moot point.

[Pinder]

strictly speaking, being triggered doesn't make it not a crappy version of channel.

Well, for this card specifically, it is pretty relevant, for the reason Di mentioned. Replacing Bone Shredder in ATS, this thing is basically a sorcery speed Terror with "Buyback-Tap a creature named Tradewind Riders and one other creature'. If it had channel, you could still recur it with Genesis, I suppose, but this lets you do it twice in one turn.

I'd say that's pretty effing good, no?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Anybody else think this race (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=53144&d=1184389883) is ugly as hell?


But since Channel had one marginably playable card to go with it, it's a moot point.Wich one would that be?

[Andros]

Wich one would that be?


Arashi was heavily played in standard. It answered meloku.

[Nydaeli]

I think Ghost-Lit Stalker was played in Block as a really terrible Mind Twist.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The current wording doesn't look triggered to me. It's not "When it comes into play, sacrifice it", it's "Sacrifice it when it comes into play".

"When" makes it a triggered ability by the hard and fast rules of the game.

[raharu]

Hobbit????? O_O WTF?!?!? I don't want to see hobbits in my game, no thank you.

[tivadar]

But the REAL question is what's he got in his pocketses?

[Samshire]

I think there is a slight difference between Evoke and Channel. with Channel you didn't always get the same effect as when you would hardcast the creature. But with Evoke you get the Creatures come into play and leave play abilities when you Evoke it and when you hardcast it. I'm really not seeing the connection between the two mechanics...

[Finn]

"When" makes it a triggered ability by the hard and fast rules of the game.Currently, yeah. Perhaps they will be rewriting those parts of the comp rules to allow for the word "when" to appear and NOT mean a trigger. Crap that would make Stifle even harder to explain.

I have to say, that, while I can't quite explain it, it does not appear to be a trigger to me, either. I find myself wondering how I would template something without using the word "when" if I wanted it to die upon entering play without a trigger.

[tivadar]

In theory it could go something like this... "If you do, this comes into play sacrificed." This makes it a state-based effect rather than a triggered ability, which stops all the fun things we've been talking about. I don't know, the way it's worded now, I'd have to go with it IS a triggered ability, unless Wizards wants everyone to be confused all to heck, something they've been trying to avoid recently. I also doubt this is an actual card scan for the reasons stated above, unless it's just an initial go at things of course.

Note that the wording I provided would trigger CIP + Leaves Play effects, but not give anyone a chance to respond to the creature actually being in play. It'd actually work rather like Flash combo.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think there is a slight difference between Evoke and Channel. with Channel you didn't always get the same effect as when you would hardcast the creature. But with Evoke you get the Creatures come into play and leave play abilities when you Evoke it and when you hardcast it. I'm really not seeing the connection between the two mechanics...

There's also a slight difference between Thicket Basilisk and Sylvan Basilisk. But who cares? Channel's a better mechanic. Both turn a creature into a spell, but one's older and does it in a cleaner, more streamlined way.

[Machinus]

It's possible that rules templates are going to provide more meaning to these new mechanics. R&D has frequently used rules changes to add significance to new mechanics and cards. I don't anticipate any format staples coming in these two blocks, but don't make any assumptions about how it works or how good it might be until we know better.

[APriestOfGix]

Doesn't seem confusing to me. The wording on Evoke states that you can play the spell for its Evoke cost. The spell is a creature, and can hence only be played when you could play a creature. It's not rocket surgery.

Wrong, you can cycle at any time, and it's on a land...

[raharu]

But the REAL question is what's he got in his pocketses?

SoFI? Uh oh...

[tivadar]

Wrong, you can cycle at any time, and it's on a land...

Wrong, Cycling never said "play this spell", and was always an activated ability. This is completely different and is an alternate casting cost, much like FoW and the like.

As for IBA's argument that both turn the creature into a spell, it's true effect-wise, but there's a very big difference in that Channel is, once again, an activated ability, while Evoke is an actual spell, and on top of this, a creature spell. What does this mean? Well, it could provide sorcery-speed combo decks with a way past things like glowrider. Does this really matter? Probably not.

EDIT: is it wrong to like arguing even though I could just wait to see the actual card/mechanic?

[Happy Gilmore]

Whatever you do, dont tell Breathweapon. It will only give him more of a reason to put Living Wish into Belcher/TES.

[MattH]

Well obviously being a spell lets you counterspell it. So there's that. On top of that, there's at least one card that cares about creatures going to the graveyard FROM PLAY, and who knows they might be printing something with "Whenever you sacrifice a creature, XXX happens" which they want this to interact with.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Currently, yeah. Perhaps they will be rewriting those parts of the comp rules to allow for the word "when" to appear and NOT mean a trigger. Crap that would make Stifle even harder to explain.

I have to say, that, while I can't quite explain it, it does not appear to be a trigger to me, either. I find myself wondering how I would template something without using the word "when" if I wanted it to die upon entering play without a trigger.

See Meddling mage.

"If you do, sacrifice it as it comes into play."

[Cabal-kun]

Anybody else think this race (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=53144&d=1184389883) is ugly as hell?

Yes. It's a small ugly thing running from a big ugly thing.


Hobbit????? O_O WTF?!?!? I don't want to see hobbits in my game, no thank you.

It can't be a hobbit. I am under the strong impression that it is wearing something over its feet.

That leaves us one option for a small, ugly humanoid creautre: Kender.

[Xero]

It can't be a hobbit. I am under the strong impression that it is wearing something over its feet

It's a Kithkin. That's probably going to be white's premier race in Lorwyn, from the info. that's available so far.

[Cabal-kun]

It's a Kithkin. That's probably going to be white's premier race in Lorwyn, from the info. that's available so far.

These tiny (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=130311) little buggers? (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=130346). And why do the Time (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=113619) Spiral (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=113509) ones look better?

[raharu]

That was a close call. Does anyone think that fish might get any new beaters out of this set if the main white race is going to be kithkin?

[SuckerPunch]

Using evoke to put Terror on a creature. That's pretty cool.

Who wants to bet that there will be a whole cycle of evoke creatures that have abilities similar to a staple card of each color.

For green, I would bet that the creature will have Oxidize/Naturalize as its evoke ability.

The other colors I can't quite figure out. Maybe the blue creature will evoke into boomerang or something.

[Finn]

See Meddling mage.

"If you do, sacrifice it as it comes into play."I don't think that would work either. It is true that MM is not a trigger but how do you sacrifice something "as it comes into play"? I can't wrap my mind around how that is possible. All of the "as" cards are having some sort of attribute set to them by the ability.

Ah, whatever. We will find out soon enough.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It would happen off the stack as the creature came into play. Thus, it would be dead by the time anyone could do anything, but it would still trigger things like Gleancrawler and such.

[Cait_Sith]

I think Jack is assuming what I assumed: Evoke will generate a replacement effect. Something like "As CARDNAME comes into play, sacrifice it."

[Nihil Credo]

If it's a replacement effect, it's just stupid that they used a "when" in the wording, since "When, whenever, at = triggered ability" is one of the rules on which people rely on the most.