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Bryant Cook
07-17-2007, 06:34 PM
I applied to be a writer on MTG Salvation and waited for a response that never came, why do I have to write for them? I'm going to write here on MTGthesource, I know I'm not the greatest writer so I apologize. Although, I enjoy giving my views on the format, so I plan on making this a weekly article or possibly every other week depending on work. If this is a hit or miss will determine if I continue to write here.

Here it is boys and...girls? The new and exciting EPIC Ichorid, this deck is a port from its cousin in Vintage Manaless Ichorid. EPIC Ichorid is a deck that utilizes the graveyard to win the game in a quick and efficient manner using the ability Dredge. Dredge is an ability that lets you mill X cards off of your library to return a dredge card from your graveyard to your hand whenever you would draw a card. This makes cards like Breakthrough a :u: dredge my deck type of card. While this may not seem like the best idea, it can be degenerate in some decks; this is one of those decks. Dredging allows you to mill cards such as Dread Return, Cabal therapy, Bridge from Below, Ichorid, Dredgers (Stinkweed Imp, Goldari Grave-Troll and Goldari Thug), Flame-Kin Zealot and finally Narcomoeba.

Not getting the idea? That’s alright, Dredging puts important cards from your library to your graveyard so you can Flashback Dread Return and Cabal Therapy. While doing this if you dredge away a Narcomoeba you can put it into play, if you hit 3 or more Narcomoebas' you can flashback a Dread Return to return a Flame-Kin Zealot to play. But what’s the point of returning a 3/3 to play with haste? This is where Bridge from Below comes in, whenever an Ichorid or Narcomoeba hits the graveyard you get a 2/2 Zombie token! So if there’s 3 Bridge from Below and you had 3 Narcomoebas to flashback Dread Return you get 9 2/2 Zombies! Then Flame-kin Zealot comes it to play and makes those 9 2/2 Zombies into 9 3/3 Zombies with Haste! This can happen as early as turn one! How do I make sure I don't lose my Bridges to a Mogg Fanatic or Tinderwall? Leyline of the Void my friend, Leyline is a beautiful thing in this deck. The card slows down the rest of the format while protecting you and it puts most decks at a disadvantage.

But why play this over the old Vintage win with Sutured Ghoul? Sutured Ghoul was dismissed when the cards in Future Site were printed because of the craziness that Narcomoeba and Bridge from Below created. The Zombie tokens don't lose to Chain of Vapor or Swords to Plowshares. It's also a lot harder to hate on the graveyard with multiple Bridges than one Sutured Ghoul. With that here is the decklist.

EPIC Ichorid as of 7/17/07
By: Bryant Cook

Manabase// 14
4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x Polluted Delta
1x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
4x Lion's Eye Diamond

Draw// 7
4x Breakthrough
3x Deep Analsys

Protection// 8
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Leyline of the Void

Dredgers// 11
4x Goldari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Goldari Thug

Combo// 12
4x Bridge from Below
4x Narcomoeba
3x Dread Return
1x Flame-Kin Zealot

Extras// 8
4x Ichorid
4x Street Wraith

Sideboard//
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Sickening Shoal
3x Reverent Silence
2x Pithing Needle
2x Chain of Vapor

Now you may be saying, "It doesn't even seem like Ichorid is that good in here." Well, to be honest it’s more along the lines of a secondary win. However, a much needed secondary win; without Ichorid if you draw or discard more than 1 Narcomoeba you can't win the game. Returning Ichorid during your upkeep by removing a Street Wraith from the game to be the third creature for Dread Returns is never a bad idea. Against Control decks Ichorid is the primary win condition, since they try and disrupt the combo very often. Since Ichorid dies at the end of your turn it’s never a bad idea to flashback Cabal Therapy to hit problematic cards in your opponent’s hand. Cabal Therapy is often used during your "combo turn" to make sure your opponent isn't holding a Force of Will to counter your Dread Return; you can also target yourself to get Dredgers or Bridges out of your hand. Cabal Therapy last and foremost is an extra sacrificing outlet for Bridge from Below to turn that 1/1 Narcomoeba into possibly 4 2/2 Zombies.

"How do you get the combo going without Bazaar of Baghdad?" Well it's not that difficult actually, the powerhouse play of EPIC Ichorid is to play a first turn Fetchland for Underground Sea, then play a Lion's Eye Diamond, casting a Breakthrough then discarding your hand to dredge 4 times on turn one. This will often lead to a turn one victory for Ichorid. Legacy may not have Bazaar but we do have the next best thing in Cephalid Coliseum, you often use this card like a Bazaar on turn one by playing a Lion's Eye Diamond (LED) then cycling a Street Wraith, then cracking LED in response. Using mana from LED to crack Cephalid Coliseum and start the combo.

The manabase is slightly different from what most people are running these days. The typical Legacy Ichorid deck plays...
4x Cephalid Coliseum
3-4x Dryad Arbor
4x Tropical Island or Underground Sea.
EPIC's Ichorid list is unique in that we play 3 colors with only two lands that effectively tap for mana, I know it sounds ludicrous but give me a chance to explain. With 4 Polluted Delta you're able to fetch for a Underground Sea or a Tropical Island on command a lot easier than taking your chances at drawing one. Because of this you are able to hardcast Cabal Therapy or cast Reverent Silence out of the sideboard by having access to a Tropical Island.

Now that you have a quick and easy rundown of the deck lets talk about a few match-ups. Goblins seems like a scary match-up on paper, I mean they have Wasteland, Mogg Fanatic, Goblin Sharpshooter, Goblin Lackey and Pyrokinesis(Out of the sideboard) but its not that scary in real life. You are just as fast as Goblins if not faster. Yes, they can potentially remove Bridge from Below from the game but you do have Leyline of the Void to prevent this. For Wasteland remember you only need that land for one turn, make the best of that mana. The deck can often win without even seeing a wasteland so don't worry about it. Goblin Sharpshooter is often slow and takes time to tutor and play, if you've given Goblins that much time you probably were in a bad position either way. But don't fret; you can play through Goblin Sharpshooter by sacrificing Zombie tokens off of Bridge from below whenever they kill a Narcomoeba.

UG/x Threshold or Gro people sometimes assume is a bad match-up because of we fill the graveyard for Tarmogoyf and Swords to Plowshares. However, thats not the case because of Leyline of the Void we can often take our time winning the game, we also have an uncounterable returning threat in Ichorid. Their clock is dramatically hurt because of Leyline of the Void, yes, Tarmogoyf being the beast he is still a 3/4-4/5. Other creatures are small enough to give you the time needed to win the game, such as Nimble Mongoose or Meddling Mage. Meddling Mage on Dread Return can be bad so be careful, in the sideboard we have Sickening Shoal to kill Meddling Magi and Yixalid Jailers (I'm aware they’re not in Threshold, but still useful to know). Using Ichorid is very effective in this match-up since they often force the combo to be out of reach. One last tip on this match-up is to remember to flashback Cabal therapy before flashing back Dread Return it gives you information and takes cards away from them.

Now that we have a few match-ups done, lets go through an average goldfish with EPIC Ichorid.
Opening hand: Stinkweed Imp, Tropical Island, Cabal Therapy, Goldari Grave-Troll, Deep Analysis, Lion's Eye Diamond and Street Wraith
So many insane plays as someone would say, I personally would play my Tropical Island, then cast Lion's Eye Diamond. Cycle Street Wraith, in response crack Lion's Eye Diamond for :u::u::u: dredge back Goldari Grave-Troll. Milling... Polluted Delta, Flame-Kin Zealot, Narcomoeba, Bridge From Below, Deep Analsys and a Street Wraith, put Narcomoeba into play. Cast Deep Analsys off the draw dredge back Stinkweed Imp milling... Goldari Thug, Ichorid, Narcomoeba, Goldari Grave-Troll and a second Bridge from Below! Put Narcomoeba into play. Off of the second draw dredge back Goldari-grave Troll milling... Cabal Therapy, Cabal therapy, Polluted Delta, Street Wraith, Stinkweed Imp, and Leyline of the Void.

Now you have :u: floating and an untapped Tropical island and in hand with 2x Grave-Trolls and a Stinkweed Imp in hand. Tap your Tropical Island and use the :u: floating to flashback the second Deep Analsys. Off the first draw dredge back Stinkweed Imp milling... Bridge from below, Narcomoeba, Dread Return, Dread Return and Leyline of the Void, put Narcomoeba into play. Second draw dredge back Goldari thug milling... Leyline of the Void, Goldari-Grave Troll, Deep Analsys and Narcomobea number 4! Put Narcomoeba into play.

Now sacrifice a Narcomoeba to Cabal Therapy (naming X) and get 3 2/2 Zombies. With the remaining 3 sacrifice them to Dread Return getting 9 more 2/2 Zombies (total of 12) to reanimate Flame-Kin Zealot and swing out for the win.

Thank you for reading the first of hopefully many more of "The Inside Scoop" with me, Bryant cook. I can't wait to hear your feedback!

-Bryant Cook (Wastedlife)
-Member of the EPIC Syndicate

Cait_Sith
07-17-2007, 06:55 PM
Why are you sticking the name "EPIC" on this again? You have stuck Legacy cards on Standard Narcolepsy.

Also, this list seems to have much in common with Manaless Ichorid lists Bane has been using, so by all rights wouldn't it be called "Mana'd Bane Ichorid" or, oh my god, "Friggorid?" This is, after all, Friggorid with NarcoBridge.

Also, Vintage cut Ghoul in favor of NarcoBridge as well, so that part of the article seems inconsistent; the way it reads it implies that Vintage saw this tech in Legacy and went for it, when Vintage nabbed it up before Legacy began to apply it.

Also, everyone knows what Dredge is. It has been around for two years and been vigorously used in all constructed formats, and even moderately used in Limited formats.

The rest of the article was a little arrogant sounding, and reeked of the classic Source "This is how the deck destroys the entire format by itself" shtick, but was actually informative on how to play the deck and what to expect in matchups. Stick to the actual information, you do that extremely well.

Edit: I forgot that Vintage Ichorid has been a strong deck for sometime now. Comparing them is a little confusing, since one is very strong and consistent while the other is much less so.

Bryant Cook
07-17-2007, 07:05 PM
Why are you sticking the name "EPIC" on this again? You have stuck Legacy cards on Standard Narcolepsy.

Also, this list seems to have much in common with Manaless Ichorid lists Bane has been using, so by all rights wouldn't it be called "Mana'd Bane Ichorid" or, oh my god, "Friggorid?" This is, after all, Friggorid with NarcoBridge. By putting EPIC in the front all I meant for is that it was "our" list. Not claiming the archetype.


Also, Vintage cut Ghoul in favor of NarcoBridge as well, so that part of the article seems inconsistent; the way it reads it implies that Vintage saw this tech in Legacy and went for it, when Vintage nabbed it up before Legacy began to apply it. If you read it I said "Old Vintage win" I also said earlier on it was a "port from vintage" meaning that we borrowed thier tech and list.


Also, everyone knows what Dredge is. It has been around for two years and been vigorously used in all constructed formats, and even moderately used in Limited formats.

The rest of the article was a little arrogant sounding, and reeked of the classic Source "This is how the deck destroys the entire format by itself" shtick, but was actually informative on how to play the deck and what to expect in matchups. Stick to the actual information, you do that extremely well. Sorry for explaining the deck a bit, I thought it may be usefull to someone who isn't a Legacy veteran. Eh, so I explain information alright I guess thats a plus...

Illissius
07-17-2007, 07:27 PM
A hand with LED, Wraith, Deep Analysis, two dredgers, and a land seems rather above average to me. As an illustration of how broken the deck can be, though, it works fine.

Why Sickening Shoal instead of Contagion?

Samshire
07-17-2007, 07:39 PM
Why does it seem that most legacy articles I read only go over how the deck does against Goblins and Thresh? Do people know that there are other decks out there?

As for the deck, it seems o.k. I'm no big fan of Ichorid, I find it strange that you lose to thresh though. I know that my friend's version of Ichorid which runs Ashen Ghouls and is more aggro-oriented has a great matchup against Thresh because they can't respond. But your deck sacrifices that for pure, all out speed.

Bovinious
07-17-2007, 07:59 PM
How does this deck even hope to win if it doesn't draw/resolve an LED/Breakthrough? Other manaless lists I've seen run Putrid Imp or Serum Powder to be sure they can get off the ground. I do like the UB nature of this though with the slight green for SB options, although you could easily replace the Reverent Silences with more bounce to stay pure UB.

noobslayer
07-17-2007, 08:02 PM
I was interested. I'm not the biggest fan of Ichorid, but it's great to see you take a more active and vocal stance to support your format.

regarding the list? What other options does the deck really have in the sense of card choices? Would it be possible to additionally fit the Sutured Ghoul combo in? thus widening the range of lethal threats.

Shriekmaw
07-17-2007, 08:54 PM
I think the article write up is very good in describing the deck and the the reason behind the inclusion of particular cards. I would like a little more in-dept look of the particular matchups from the top tier decks in legacy, but overall very well written.

I think will more play testing and results from major events we will see how good this deck is and if it can do well in big events. I believe it will post good results just by the success of the deck in Standard and Extended. If it can do well there, then I believe it can do well in any format.

It will be interesting to keep an eye on this deck, as I'm sure it will gain more popularity in the months to come.

Whit3 Ghost
07-17-2007, 09:11 PM
How does this deck even hope to win if it doesn't draw/resolve an LED/Breakthrough? Other manaless lists I've seen run Putrid Imp or Serum Powder to be sure they can get off the ground. I do like the UB nature of this though with the slight green for SB options, although you could easily replace the Reverent Silences with more bounce to stay pure UB.
Draw step + Dredger + Cephalid Coliseum.
That gives you 12 "go" cards which will put a ton of cards in your yard and give you the upper hand.

The manabase change is actually rather significant, as it takes out cards that don't actually do anything on turn 1.

This deck actually is incredibly good against the format, especially now, as most players do not have adequite testing skill against the deck.

Bryant, I would like to see matchup results against decks such as Aluren, TES, Geedon Stax/AT1, Belcher, Iggy and Survival. In other words, a more complete gauntlet. It also would have been interesting to have those two test games be against an opponent.

Finally, would a red splash for Gamble be worthwhile? It grabs combo pieces and key anticombo cards and doesn't RFG useful cards like Serum Powder would.

Bryant Cook
07-17-2007, 10:27 PM
Bryant, I would like to see matchup results against decks such as Aluren, TES, Geedon Stax/AT1, Belcher, Iggy and Survival. In other words, a more complete gauntlet. It also would have been interesting to have those two test games be against an opponent.

Finally, would a red splash for Gamble be worthwhile? It grabs combo pieces and key anticombo cards and doesn't RFG useful cards like Serum Powder would.

What does red provide other than Gamble? Although, someone said Firestorm, thats an interesting option.

In future articles I'll do my best to expand the gauntlet. Thanks for the feedback everyone.

Bovinious
07-17-2007, 10:30 PM
Draw step + Dredger + Cephalid Coliseum.
That gives you 12 "go" cards which will put a ton of cards in your yard and give you the upper hand.

So if you don't draw/resolve LED/Breakthrough you have to go EOT discard dredger, next turn dredge then land/coliseum then pass, then next turn maybe dredge again then activate coliseum pass, maybe go off. That is getting online turn 3 if on the draw turn 4 if on the play, which seems abysmally slow, thats the turn my Friggorid build usually wins (turn 4) with more consistency and just as muhc disruption through Therapy. I just don't see how you can rely that much on an LED/Breakthrough resolving, especially without Serum Powder to find them or Putrid Imp as a backup plan.

BreathWeapon
07-18-2007, 05:21 AM
In all fairness to the people who developed the original deck, it wasn't ported from Vintage, it was ported from Classic.

Isn't cutting a DA a tremendous loss for this deck? It doesn't just decrease the odds of the LED + DA hands, but the LED + Colliseum hands where activating the Coliseum and dredging into a DA is the most common form of "the nuts."

I haven't seen a lot from the LV and Wraith build that warrants using it over the 8 land and Putrid Imp build that has won an event. LV is good against Goblins and that's about it, because U/g/w Tarmogoyf gets to use your discard pile, you play with every spell type and draw go favors them because they get to build a counter wall and play Meddling Mage on Cabal Therapy. Street Wraith and Putrid Imp both increase the black creature count, but Street Wraith is win more because it doesn't affect the game until after the ball is rolling and Putrid Imp puts the ball into motion. One of the reasons that build has to be so paranoid about protecting its Bridges from the opponent is that it doesn't get either the 2 land or 2 outlet combinations that the other build gets as often to enable Ichorid and a Dread Returned GGT as threats against aggro, and it has to commit its entire hand to the discard pile instead of being able to hold back dredgers and threats with Putrid Imp.

Reverent Silence isn't that good, with Arbor it isn't Daze proof, so it's no better than Chain of Vapor against the card it's designed to remove. Game 2, Reverent Silence is either a hit or miss if the opponent doesn't have LV in his SB. It's safer to bring in removal for Tormod's Crypt, and if both Tormod's Crypt and Leyline of the Void are just as likely, Abolish is an option with the 4 Underground Sea and 4 Watery Grave mana base. I don't even see the point of using Reverent Silence in here, because it's reducing the number of lands that can cast an answer for LV from 10 to 5. I'm a fan of using a 5 color mana base and SBing in Ancient Grudge, because the deck can either cast it with two lands or flash it back with one land after discarding it at the end of your first turn, and the opponent can't wait to activate a Tormod's Crypt after you dredge an Ancient Grudge. Considering you aren't using green fetchlands to search for a single Dryad Arbor, do you really have any reason to run your 3c mana base over a 5c mana base other than the addition of Reverent Silence to the SB?

Is it just me that does this, or do other people not choose to draw after winning the coin flip to guarantee Threshold for Cephalid Coliseum? Your example hand suggests that you choose to play after winning the coin flip, and that hand appears to be far more doctored than average.

I do appreciate the effort nonetheless, and I hope to see more writing in the future. If you want/need some one to help you with editing your articles, feel free to PM me.

Nightmare
07-18-2007, 08:33 AM
So, as much as that is EPIC Ichorid, so is this list, that I've been playing:

EPIC Ichorid as of 7/17/07
By: Not Bryant Cook, but Adam Barnello

Manabase// 8
4x Cephalid Coliseum
2x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea

Dumps// 8
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Putrid Imp

Draw// 14
4x Breakthrough
4x Deep Analysis
2x Brainstorm
4x Street Wraith

Protection// 4
4x Cabal Therapy

Dredgers// 11
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug

Combo// 13
4x Bridge from Below
4x Narcomoeba
3x Dread Return
2x Flame-Kin Zealot

Extras// 2
2x Ichorid

Sideboard//
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Contagion
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Pithing Needle
3x Chain of Vapor


Just another take on the same deck. The largest difference is the Leyline's abscence from the MD, as I don't like mulling to 4 for Leyline G1 against Thresh, for example, who really can't deal with your deck anyway. It's excellent protection for your bridges games 2 and 3 if you really need it, but most of the time conservative, intelligent play can let you work around a Fanatic, Tinder Wall, or Cantor.

Whit3 Ghost
07-18-2007, 08:49 AM
When I played against this deck Online, I just felt that if I could counter the first discard outlet, I could shut the Ichorid player down long enough to gain a solid advantage. I know you guys run Cabal Therapy, but with 8-12 "go" cards, how do you react to the first one getting countered?

Lego
07-18-2007, 11:17 AM
First, why do you insist on saying "Goldari"? Is that some sort of (not funny) inside joke I'm missing? If it is, then I'm confused. Explaining Dredge seems to say that you want this article to be readable by even the newest of new Legacy players. Including inside jokes in the same article, jokes that actually make it harder to understand the deck and article, seems counterintuitive.

Second, how does this do against Counterspells? It seems like you really need to resolve a single card before you can even get started, and then your deck hinges around another single card resolving, with only flashbacked Therapies as protection. I've also seen Thresh running a lot of EE or Stifle these days, both of which seem tough for you. Thoughts?

Di
07-18-2007, 01:41 PM
Yes just to clarify, the list Bryant posted is definetely not and "EPIC" list. Adam's is much closer; he runs Putrid Imp. The deck really can't function well without it. Also, it's the only list that runs Brainstorm, which is absolutly retarded.

@ Sickening Shoal v. Contagion

It's a preference thing, really. Most people run Contagion, until I pressured them into Sickening Shoal. The ability to kill bigger creatures in a pinch is what made me like it. Not sure if it's necessarily stronger than killing two x/1's, but either one is fine.


Second, how does this do against Counterspells? It seems like you really need to resolve a single card before you can even get started, and then your deck hinges around another single card resolving, with only flashbacked Therapies as protection.

You wait until you have eight cards in hand, and discard GGT. Does that settle things for you?

Bovinious
07-18-2007, 06:07 PM
I'm all for Putrid Imp in manaless Ichorid, but how can you seriously expect to be able to cast him with just 2 Delta 2 USea? Does anyone else think thats way off? In the list I've been goldfishing I run 4 Delta 2 USea and still am not able to cast Putrid Imp as much as I would like to.

Bane of the Living
07-18-2007, 07:49 PM
I cant believe you guys beat me to an article. WTF

Bryants list:
I cant argue against your choices to run maindeck leyline since it seems like mostly a preference. The only reason I let it go was to make more room in the deck for things that improved consistancy. (additional lands, Putrid Imp).

I'd really like to see the fourth Deep Analysis in your list though. It's quite important to the actual engine of the deck.

Four Delta's and only one of each land to search for seems sketchey since you could dredge the one of land away, has this come up at all or is this scheme working well for you? I may try it out.

Adam's list:
I havent tried a version with both Putrid Imp and SW but Id assume you need some more lands to cast the Imp reliably. 4 lands is certainly not enough. Im curious to know how your mulligans are going. How often do you need to start off with the discard phase?

2 Ichorid is actually what stands out the most. He may be the secondary win condition but he's the primary enabler for the deck. With a lower Ichorid count you'll be way too reliant on dredging the meobas. Not to mention how much more graveyard hate will hurt. 4 Bridge 4 Ichorid assure a steady stream of threats.

Both Lists:

Pithing Needle is a x4 must have for the Crypt hate. Its probably your most important card. Chalice is great if you have room for it since its additional crypt hate and combo hate but its only good against crypt when your on the play. Whats with the removal card? Why do you need to kill anything at all? I tried Unmask for this effect, my problem was fast combo not creatures, and I wasnt happy with it. I couldnt bring myself to rfg something like Bridge.

I recommend you both try to combat Leyline a bit more. Moreso Adam.

This is my current list.

Necro Bridge

4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Polluted Delta
3 Dryad Arbor

4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 Breakthrough
4 Deep Analysis
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

4 Narcomeoba
4 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Gravetroll
1 Flamekin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage

Wonder is a danger of cool things. Brainstorm and Carefull Study are worse than Putrid Imp since the discard outlet is more important than card draw. Cephalid Sage is nuts, I suggest you give him a go.

Its nice to know you guys are interested in the deck. Its certainly powerfull. I'd like to invite you to the Manaless Ichorid thread so you can help develop the list, rather than leave it up to me.