Decks that Kill Fast in Legacy

[DrJones]

As discussions about the banned list tend to be unproductive because there's always supporters for both sides of the discussion about banning cards or not (take a look at Hulk Flash and what people thought about it), I've chosen to take a more productive approach: Let R&D decide which cards should be banned! Good idea, isn't it?

What we can do, is listing the blazingly fast decks that have the game won by turn 1-3 on average, as previous data seem to show these are the decks that worry R&D the most. Moreover, we can include the cards that we think are the most strong in that deck. Having the game won is not the same as winning on that turn! I make the difference to allow inclusion of control and lock decks.

You don't have to agree the deck is broken, just listing the broken plays the deck can pull of very soon.

EDIT: If the average kill of a deck is between 2 turns between 0 and 3, I'll include it in both places.

Decks that can have the game won by Turn 1:
- Green Academy: Gaea's Cradle. Glimpse of Nature. Crop Rotation.
- Belcher (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5712): Empty the Warrens, Goblin Charbelcher, Lion's Eye Diamond.
- The Epic Storm (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5450) (TES): Empty the Warrens, Burning Wish, Lion's Eye Diamond. Tendrils of Agony.
- Almost mana-less Ichorid (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6361): Lion's Eye Diamond. Bridge from Below. Dread Return.
- Spanish Inquisition (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6099): Ill Goten's Gains. Lion's Eye Diamond. Empty the Warrens. Tendrils of Agony.
- Iggy Pop (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3500): Ill Goten's Gains. Lion's Eye Diamond. Infernal Tutor. Tendrils of Agony.
- Stax (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=142145&postcount=85): Crucible of Worlds. Smokestack. Trinisphere. Ancient Tomb.

Decks that can have the game won by Turn 2:
- Almost mana-less Ichorid (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6361): Lion's Eye Diamond. Bridge from Below. Dread Return.
- Scepter Chant (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14551.html): Orim's Chant, Isochron Scepter (link to suboptimal build)
- Cephalid Breakfast (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6564): Cephalid Illusionist. Dread Return.
- Hulk Reanimator (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=893245): Protean Hulk. Reanimate. (link to suboptimal build)
- Salvagers Game (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=139880&postcount=238) (Golden Grahams): Lion's Eye Diamond. Gamekeeper.
- Iggy Pop (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3500): Ill Goten's Gains. Lion's Eye Diamond. Infernal Tutor. Tendrils of Agony.
- The Cure (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6110): Kavu Predator. Berserk.

Decks that can have the game won by Turn 3:
- Solidarity (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=617): Reset. Brain Freeze. Brainstorm.
- Spring Tide (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2594&highlight=Spring+Tide): High Tide. Brain Freeze. Cunning Wish.
- Vial Goblins (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5557): Aether Vial. Goblin Lackey. Goblin Ringleader?
- Dragon/Demon/Faerie Stompy: Ancient Tomb. Chrome Mox. Umezawa's Jitte.

EDIT: Link (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5538) to Iranon's study of the relative speed of the 4 storm combo decks in legacy.

[Eldariel]

Ichorid has a rather good turn 1 goldfish percentage. Scepter Chant can never really lock before turn 2 and even then, the lock is easily breakable with Wastelands, Rishadan Ports, Krosan Grips, vialed in arti-hate, Siege-Gang Commanders flinging through, instant bounce, Disenchants (as long as they're coupled with some turn 1 discard to clear the way from counters) and what-have-you.

[DrJones]

I know Scepter Chant's combo is disruptable. I'm not taking into account the power of the deck, just the speed at which the scenario happens. I'm going to Move Scepter down to Turn 2, and put Ichorid also on Turn 1, then. This list also allows for clunky decks like those around Fluctuator and such, as the point is not about arguing about the fairness/consistency of the decks, but to have listed in the same place all the legacy decks that can win very fast so that R&D can easily take them into account.

I'm open to more suggestions about what info could also be added (links to decklists, and such).

[LGD]

You probably ought to include SI under the turn one combo decks. It goldfishes turn one an absolutely rediculous percentage of the time and while I personally am not completely sure how great it is compared to the other fast storm combo decks it's raw power cannot be denyed.

[Atwa]

How can you not list Lion's eye Diamond in both Belcher and TES?

Although I would really hate to see it go, LED is the bomb which fuels alsmost every fast combodeck. If any card needs to get the axe because combo is too good in the format, LED will be the one to go.

[DrJones]

@Atwa:
I've just started with the list, so glaring ommisions are to be expected. I've not included LED on Belcher and TES because I thought I read somewhere that they took it out of the list. I'm going to add it up now.

[emidln]

The cards that are critical to SI are Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, and Culling the Weak, and the draw4s. Everything else, including Tendrils is replaceable according to meta considerations.

SI's kills are (in order of prevalence):

Tendrils of Agony
Empty the Warrens
Goblin Charbelcher
Brain Freeze

The ritual effects you want to see the most are (in order):

Lotus Petal #1
Dark Ritual
Culling the Weak #1
Land #1
Lotus Petals #2/3/4
Chrome Mox
Land #2 (this might be below cabal rit)
Cabal Ritual (this might be above Land #2)
Culling the Weak #2/3/4
Simian Spirit Guide
Lion's Eye Diamond
Any additional land

If I were to list the problem cards in SI they would be:

Dark Ritual
Lotus Petal
Chrome Mox

Coincidentally, these are the same cards that let TES and Belcher pull off ridiculous turn 1 plays.

/your friendly neighborhood SI master

P.S. You seem to have forgotten Iggy Pop. That deck can win as early as turn 1 as much as Ichorid, and its domain lies around turns 2-3.

[Bryant Cook]

Tendrils is pretty big in TES, I win every game 2/3 with it.

[Bovinious]

You forgot about IGGY Pop which CAN win on turn 1, and Spring Tide which can win on turn 3.

Also, Scepter Chant isnt a win by any stretch of the imagination, thats like saying Confinement/Squee is a win, people can have MD answers and will definitely have answers SB. And also what is "Hulk Reanimator"? I've never seen it or even heard of it before.

[DrJones]

@Bovinious:
The "win" requirements are loosened so that they allow inclusion of locks that happen very fast.
Hulk Reanimator are decks that play Protean hulk from the graveyard (you discard it to Cabal Therapy, reanimate it, sacrifice it to Cabal Therapy). I don't know how reliable it is. But it is reported to kill turns 1-2.

@emidln:
I'm not really sure these are the cards that worry the most the people playing against SI. I'll wait a bit to see what other people say before updating the list.

About Spring Tide. I only know that it's a sorcery speed High Tide deck. Can someone post a link to the list, or tell me which cards are the strongest in the deck?

[Bovinious]

Spring Tide plays High Tide, Turnabout, Candelbra of Tawnos, Meditate, Ideas Unbound, Cunning Wish, I'm sure theres a thread about it somewhere.

[AnwarA101]

@Bovinious:
About Spring Tide. I only know that it's a sorcery speed High Tide deck. Can someone post a link to the list, or tell me which cards are the strongest in the deck?

Spring Tide thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2594&highlight=Spring+Tide)

[Blaukreuz]

Spring Tide is around 70% 3rd turn kill.
A very solid Tier2 Deck i think.

It's untap-engine is usually Snap + Cloud of Faeries and not Candelabra of Tawnos

[outsideangel]

Spring Tide is around 70% 3rd turn kill.
A very solid Tier2 Deck i think.

It's untap-engine is usually Snap + Cloud of Faeries and not Candelabra of Tawnos

Only the bad versions are still running Snap over Candelabra.

[nitewolf9]

Only the bad versions are still running Snap over Candelabra.

Oh, snap!

[calosso]

Spring Tide is around 70% 3rd turn kill.
A very solid Tier2 Deck i think.

It's untap-engine is usually Snap + Cloud of Faeries and not Candelabra of Tawnos

Wow, you are so wrong, candalabra and MOM is the way to go in that deck.

[Zilla]

You ommitted Vial Goblins from the turn 3 wins list.

[Phantom]

You ommitted Vial Goblins from the turn 3 wins list.

I thought about mentioning Dragon Stompy (as turn 2) and FS (as turn 3) but he does mention in the opening post that he's looking for consistent quickness, and I'm not sure any aggro deck in Legacy consistently goldfishes this quickly.

[Atwa]

I heard of a deck than do something like this -

Swamp, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Phyrexian Negator, Rotting Giant
Badlands, Rotting Giant
Lightning Bolt

That is 22 points of damage on turn 3. What a cool deck!

Never heard of it :)

[DrJones]

I thought about mentioning Dragon Stompy (as turn 2) and FS (as turn 3) but he does mention in the opening post that he's looking for consistent quickness, and I'm not sure any aggro deck in Legacy consistently goldfishes this quickly.What is FS? I feel lost on acronyms.

About Dragon Stompy, if it has a realistic/relevant chance of winning turn 2 (most likely 3), then I can place it on the list. About how realistic they must be, I'm not sure. Let's say for now that commons and uncommons are okay, and rares less okay.

[rufus]

Legacy is a very high powered format. Even something as simple as weenies + final fortune can produce significant turn 3 percentages.

Generally speaking the problem isn't one card or the other, but a combination of many forms of easy acceleration. Many of these are generally applicable, and, when they're not used in a deck, it typically reflects on a design choice.

Lion's Eye Diamond is really only problematic in the presence of other good acceleration and tutors/wishes.

Protean Hulk is potent, but needs to be cheated into and out of play to be effective. It also allows for a litany of finishing combos. Hulk decks will also use the same acceleration or protection libraries that the other decks in the format display.

[Iranon]

FS = Faerie Stompy

If you include Scepter/Chant on this list, Stax has to be there too, and under turn 1: Starting with Trinisphere followed up by a Smokestack turn 2 or Braids turn 3 is pretty impossible to get out of.

[DrJones]

Added Stax on turn 1.

I'm thinking about adding a rarity to each entry, too. Maybe later.

[DarkAkuma]

Salvager/Game can win as early as turn 1, with odds getting better every turn.

Turn one kills with it are:

LED x2, Chromatic Sphere/Star, black land, Dark Ritual, Living Wish/Infernal Tutor.
LED, Dark Ritual x2, black land, Chromatic Sphere/Star/Spellbomb, Infernal Tutor.

Think theres 1-2 other hands that can be turn 1 kill, but that should be enough to get the point across.

Oh, and i guess i should just mention it for the hell of it, but burn is capable of a turn 3 kill also. Need to draw all 3-for-1 burn, cept for a fire blast, then either a fork, Price of progress, or Flame Rift, and 3 land.

[Tacosnape]

I thought about mentioning Dragon Stompy (as turn 2) and FS (as turn 3) but he does mention in the opening post that he's looking for consistent quickness, and I'm not sure any aggro deck in Legacy consistently goldfishes this quickly.

I've won turn 2 with Dragon Stompy in a tournament, and I've won turn 3 with Goblins more times than I'm capable of counting. I've actually won turn 1 with Goblins. Dragon Stompy can win turn 3 a lot more than turn 2, though.

[revenge_inc]

Decks that Kill Fast in Legacy
Good Decks :tongue:

On a more serious note, it's the average kill that counts. Iggy Pop can win on turn 1 and 2 but far less consistently than Belcher. That is why I believe Iggy Pop is a fair deck whereas I believe something should be done (ban-wise) to hinder the power of Belcher.

[Iranon]

Actually, Iggy Pop kills faster than Belcher on average... from my experience it's only behind on the turn 1 win percentage, and that by so little it's not statistically significant.

One big selling point of Belcher is that it has a better than even chance of putting something scary on the table turn 1, rendering discard and countermagic fairly useless from then on.