[Brainstorming] Lists for Testing Land Tax [Archive]

PunkRocker1134

07-29-2007, 04:21 PM

Many agree that Land Tax should come off the banned list, but the most that people are willing to dedicate to that research is all in theory. I'm proposing that we gather lists, refine those lists and god damn it test them. I believe someone from another thread (the one about Machinus's article) stated that revealing of lists would be unfair incase it does become unbanned. This is reasonable but I think for once, as a community we can put "secret tech" aside, put all useless bitching and theory aside and test this idea. Maybe wizards will listen to solid testing of solid lists, which were being refined and tested by the best that Legacy can offer. Its an idea. I don't have much in the way of lists but I will keep this opening post updated with different lists, debates among those lists, and the individual lists matchups.

Notes:
-A different list, not just changes on an existing one, should be not the changing of certain cards but the general idea of the deck. For example: Land Tax White Weenie and Parfait are different. Not Parfait with or without Wrath of God.
- Let's keep this Civil, and to decide which cards should be tested in the individual lists maybe a poll can be utilized.
- Remember one broken Land Tax list is what should keep it on there

Decklists (very very very rough right now and Again I'm very willing to delete these ones and add new more refined ones or just add new land tax archetypes)

Devastating Dreams Tax (aggroish)
// Lands
5 [MI] Mountain (1)
9 [U] Plains (2)
3 [B] Plateau

// Creatures
4 [SC] Silver Knight
4 [TSB] Soltari Priest
2 [TSP] Tivadar of Thorn

// Spells
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [JU] Lava Dart
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [TO] Devastating Dreams
4 [LG] Land Tax
4 [TE] Scroll Rack
2 [JU] Solitary Confinement
3 [WL] Firestorm

Basic Idea:
The idea of this rough list (I cant emphasize rough enough) is to use Firestorm and Devastating Dreams along with Pro Red creatures and Land Tax to generate card advantage, while still applying pressure. Solitary Confinement is a probably horrible late game helper. Solitary Confinement and Devastating Dreams happen to be the only way we stand a chance against Tendrils/Brainfreeze based combo. Goblins should (there has been no testing yet) be an easy match.

Parfait:
// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
10 [U] Plains (2)
4 [IA] Forest (2)

// Creatures
3 [ON] Exalted Angel
3 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [JU] Solitary Confinement
4 [FUT] Edge of Autumn
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [TE] Scroll Rack
4 [LG] Land Tax
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [IN] Sterling Grove

Basic Idea:
The center piece of this rough ( and I mean rough) deck is Solitary Confinement. It is the backbone and we are trying to get that out as soon as possible. All 7 tutors also search out the Tax/ Rack engine which powers this deck. Sterling grove is there to give that pseudo Solitary Confinement hard lock (with 2 sterling grove) but it also functions as a tutor. Edge of Autumn was a great suggestion by Nihil and should help a lot in this list. It draws and sets up tax. Actually I can see this deck maybe having a decent combo match. Probably a kick ass aggro match and the suck against Thresh and decks like it.

Turbo Stasis Redux (posted by Foolfoatook modified by me)

4 Forsaken City
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
6 Island
5 Plains

4 Land Tax
4 Stasis
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
3 Serra Avenger
2 Frozen Aether
1 Scroll Rack
3 Ghostly Prison
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale

Basic Idea: This deck is your basic stasis lock down deck with Land Tax as the primary way to sustain the lock. It also runs Ghostly Prison and Stasis as ways to lock out aggro. It runs 8 free counters to combo combo and would probably sport more sideboard options to fight that matchup

Most Raw Power Land Tax (that has been suggested anyway, again with my own changes)
// Lands
1 [R] Savannah
3 [IA] Forest (2)
3 [B] Taiga
6 [U] Plains (2)
1 [MI] Mountain (1)
4 [B] Plateau
4 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair

// Spells
2 [UD] Replenish
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [LG] Land Tax
2 [TE] Humility
3 [TE] Scroll Rack
4 [FUT] Edge of Autumn
4 [JU] Solitary Confinement
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [7E] Seismic Assault
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam

Basic idea: Overkill with Synergy. Life from the Loam and Seismic Assault work wonders and combining this with Land Tax you get more lands to fuel Assault. Solitary Confinement allows for something resembling a combo match. Scroll Rack is the obvious draw engine and enlightened tutor basically allows you to tutor your entire deck.

I hope we can come together as a community, and maybe something will happen. Also I am looking for people to test with, PM me if your interested.

Atwa

07-29-2007, 05:02 PM

This is actually a good idea.

I've once made a Terrageddon deck with Land Tax, just to test it out, and I must say it wasn't all that impressive.

It's on my laptop, so I can't acces it right now, but I can put it online tomorrow during work if some people are interested.

Nihil Credo

07-29-2007, 05:32 PM

I have noticed two new cards that have some good synergy with Land Tax.

The first is Edge of Autumn. This fulfills a simple, but important spot: it lets you drop your land count at instant speed, uncounterably, and it gives you a card instead of Zuran's Orb's 2 life. In a heavy white deck, running Flagstones of Trokair (to cycle it without a Tax) is also a breeze. I'm fairly confident this one should be a 4-of in basically any LT deck.

The second is Lightning Storm. Since you can assume you're always going to win the pitch war, this is a one-shot Land's Edge that can remove creatures and includes 3 "free" damage. I'm much less sure about this one (dealing 13 damage for 1RR is not as awesome as it sounds), but I thought it might be worth mentioning.

FoolofaTook

07-29-2007, 11:23 PM

Turbo Stasis Redux

4 Forsaken City
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
6 Island
5 Plains

4 Land Tax
4 Stasis
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
3 Serra Sphinx
2 Serra Angel
2 Frozen Aether
2 Aether Vial
2 Powersink
2 Wrath of God
1 Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale

Basic idea is to get Forsaken City, Land Tax and Stasis out and then wait for Frozen Aether or Aether Vial to kill. The anti-creature is reasonable and can even handle Goblins in a number of different ways. The anti-combo is acceptable although just as vulnerable as any deck to combo + FoW or Storm. The control matchup is probably fine. The Land Tax/Brainstorm combo is very strong since you can pull land out of your deck and then turn it into spells before reshuffling using Land Tax.

Weaknesses include no way to get rid of non-creature permanents once they land. 9 counters will either stop them in a timely fashion or not. Sideboard would likely include Energy Flux to handle the artifact heavy decks and Hallowed Ground to handle wastelands and bad landkill that would otherwise cause problems.

Sanguine Voyeur

07-29-2007, 11:42 PM

I see a few problems with your list; it's a Stasis deck, it doesn't really abuse Land Tax, and it has bad match ups against aggro, combo, and, control.

FoolofaTook

07-29-2007, 11:54 PM

I see a few problems with your list; it's a Stasis deck, it doesn't really abuse Land Tax, and it has bad match ups against aggro, combo, and, control.

It uses Land tax with Forsaken City, Brainstorm, Stasis (can just pull out 3 Islands early to have blue mana in hand to feed the Stasis.) Land Tax also enables more aggressive mulligans, since a white mana source and Land Tax will keep you from the mana-screwed that mulliganing often produces.

As to the matchups I don't know. I can't see a deck with 4 plows, 9 counters, 2 WoG and a potential turn 4 or 5 locking device as being all that screwed against aggro. Goblins is a special case and I have no idea what the matchup looks like pre-sideboard. Combo is very iffy against many control premises because of storm mechanisms. Would Stifle in the sideboard be a good idea for Belcher? Probably, inasmuch as Land Tax is definitely coming out of the deck. I have no idea if the control matchup lives or dies.

thefreakaccident

07-29-2007, 11:55 PM

beleive it or not, stasis can be a hardlock (you know, they cannot do anything at all!!!)... aggro can't win if you get that lock out, in which case you win... I can see combo laughing at this though (at least until they tap for stuff, unless they are solidarity... they just laugh).. control likes to have lands to use, as well as other permanents (most of the time).

the fact of the matter is that stasis was and is just too slow to accomplish anything in this format.

I think land tax should be used in an aggro-loam shell, so as to pitch the excess lands to seismic assault (that's a guaranteed 6 dmg. a turn)... add LFtL and that turns into 12!

you could also abuse the dev. dreams and the storm more affectively.. this is the only deck I can see significantly 'breaking' this card, but it would only have synergy with that and other loam decks.

Sanguine Voyeur

07-30-2007, 12:03 AM

Land Tax can't continually support Stasis. That's the nature of Land Tax; it only helps when you don't play lands.

Wrath and Frozen Æther are too slow to stop aggro.

FoolofaTook

07-30-2007, 12:07 AM

Land Tax can't continually support Stasis. That's the nature of Land Tax; it only helps when you don't play lands.

Wrath and Frozen Æther are too slow to stop aggro.

Land Tax can fuel an emergency Stasis on turn 2 that slows everything down and lets you stabilize. With Forsaken City Land Tax can fuel Stasis for enough turns to lock the opponent out of the game.

Wrath and Frozen Aether can't stop aggro but in combination with other mechanisms they can lock it down. Note that there aren't 4 of each in the deck because they're not going to help if you rely on them but they sure will be nasty when they come up.

rufus

07-30-2007, 03:29 PM

Well, Land Tax certainly seems like the sort of card that would fit very well in some sort of enchantress deck.

Lego

07-30-2007, 05:04 PM

Has no one put this with Empyrial Armor (Plate) yet? Come on people.

C.P.

07-30-2007, 05:13 PM

Well, Land Tax certainly seems like the sort of card that would fit very well in some sort of enchantress deck.

No, not really. Enchantress utilizes exploration, which have savage anti-synergy with Land Tax. Also, drawing three basic lands is not worth a spot in the deck.

@Lego Army Man

You mean 10 year old outdated idea that will roll to any kind of creature removal? With cataclysm maybe, but I don't think it is worth the spot.

@ Stasis List

Why not avenger rather than 4/4s?

FoolofaTook

07-30-2007, 05:44 PM

@ Stasis List

Why not avenger rather than 4/4s?

Just my prejudice against 3/3's as finishers. Aether Vial is in the deck only to allow a 5CC finisher to cast while Stasis is in play. I could maybe see replacing the 2 Serra Angels with Avengers, however I'd keep the Sphinx since they pitch to FoW.

PunkRocker1134

07-31-2007, 08:55 PM

FoolofaTook

08-01-2007, 11:44 AM

I personally feel Stasis is a very bad way to use Land Tax. At least I believe your build is. Serra Avenger is nice and should probably be a four of as your kill. And if you wanna go straight up lockdown run 4 Kismets, and why we're here run 4 enlightened tutors. A great compliment with Stasis against aggro is Ghostly Prison. Which can stop aggro dead in its tracks. Maybe a little more draw like a Thresh cantrip set or something. thats all I can really say more, Ill add more later.
--PunkRocker

It's possible that Stasis and Land tax don't work well together. I like the idea just because of the Forsaken City/Stasis/Land Tax synergy. It's also nice to have another cheaper enchantment that people would potentially want to remove before Stasis hits the board. There's only so much removal of that type in a deck.

Probably the biggest single factor though is the synergy in the 3 cards above. Why is Stasis a bad card in this meta? Because it takes too long to land effectively. Land Tax and Forsaken City are two cards that change that dynamic, slightly in and of themselves and potentially greatly in combination.

I wouldn't use Kismet over Frozen Aether because it doesn't pitch to Force of Will. I wouldn't use 4 of either because they're going to be dead cards in the opening hand given the speed of the meta. Having 2 of them in your opening hand would just suck, and mulliganing would also be problematic since 4 of the 4CC's in the deck gives you another dead hand possibility after you mulligan.

TrialByFire

08-01-2007, 06:45 PM

i agree and also think life from the loam and land tax would be brutal with devastating dreams and seismic assault. now the trick is the mana base and whether or not land tax will make that much difference. it certainly gives the deck lots of draw power

Capitalization and punctuation are required on these boards. Please use them when posting in the future. - Zilla

Clark Kant

08-01-2007, 07:24 PM

Sensei's Diving Top works great with Land Tax.

Goblin Charbelcher might be a good kill mechanism for the deck too.

And it's really easy to splash a color with Land Tax. I think it would work well in Vodka Pox.

You do need 4 Mox Diamond and 4 Chrome Mox. If you are also running Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors, I would run Trinisphere or Smokestack and other prison elements too.

And I'm sure there's a more ways to break the card a bit more.

dahcmai

08-01-2007, 07:44 PM

I'd have to go with something like this.

Land Tax x4
Loam x4
Seismic Assault x4
Mox Diamond x4
Chrome Mox x4
Solitary x4
Eve of Autumn x4
Scroll Rack x3
Humility x2
Replenish x2

Flagstones x4
Red Duals
etc...

Simple yet hard to deal with.

HPC

08-02-2007, 06:19 PM

I saw the previous Stasis deck posted here and there's just way too many slots reserved for the kill so I'm sharing my super secret Land Tax Stasis. Land Tax is used to good effect in improving Stasis by replacing Howling Mine with a 1-mana solution that comes down turn 1. Now... this deck has an extremely hard time against decks that don't use the attack phase to win, especially ones that can kill you with only a couple mana on the board (Belcher, Tendrils). Krosan Grip also causes some problems. It weakens the deck and has to be prepared for. Since we're giving up on decks that don't use the attack phase to win I recommend using Limited Resources in place of Root Maze, but since I'm still playing around with this deck I've included alternatives.

Taxed Stasis

[Lock]
4x Stasis
4x Land Tax
1x Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale
3x Propaganda
2x Limited Resources / Root Maze / Orb of Dreams / Kismet

[Protection]
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Chain of Vapor

[Search/Draw]
4x Brainstorm
3x Sensei's Divining Top / Impulse
2x Enlightened Tutor

[Kill Condition]
3x Ebony Owl Netsuke

[Land]
2x Chrome Mox
4x Mox Diamond
4x Tundra
2x Polluted Delta / Tropical Island
4x Forsaken City
3x Flooded Strand
4x Island

[Potential Additions / Sideboard]
Meddling Mage
Tangle Wire
Counterbalance
Suppression Field
Stifle
Winter Orb
Orim's Chant
Root Maze

FoolofaTook

08-02-2007, 07:09 PM

HPC

08-03-2007, 12:31 AM

How do you deal with creatures early on?

I like the addition of the Sensei's Diving Tops because they work well with Land Tax.

Either Propaganda or you just take damage until you play Stasis. You shouldn't normally be getting to 3 mana without a Stasis in hand. If you do you can play Propaganda and stall the game a bit.

Your opponent will either be slow playing trying not to tap out so they can respond or you end up locking them down. They have to guess what you have as much as you do about what they have.

Pinder

08-03-2007, 02:40 AM

Honestly, I think the best shell for Land Tax is in some kind of Aggro-Loam that takes advantage of LftL, Devestating Dreams, Land Tax, and Seismic assault. You could drop Land Tax, use it to power out Seismic Assault, Dreams away the table, and back it up with Wild Mongrel/Terravore, both of which would be fueled by 3 lands in hand every turn (more if you can cast LftL)? I'm too lazy to drum up a list right now, but it seems like a halfway decent idea on paper.

Finn

08-03-2007, 08:32 AM

I agree with that entirely, Pinder. It gets a little dicey mounting three colors with sufficient basic lands, but ultimately you really only need a few lands at a time to do the job. The biggest problem with that strategy is a complete dependence on the graveyard. It ends up having the same problems as all Loam decks, a much harder g2, g3.

Pinder

08-03-2007, 02:15 PM

The biggest problem with that strategy is a complete dependence on the graveyard. It ends up having the same problems as all Loam decks, a much harder g2, g3.

I would hardly call it a complete dependence on the yard. Of the cards I listed, the only one that relies on the yard is Terravore, and to a lesser extent LftL. The deck could still win through Sesmic Assault or huge Mongrels, which rely on discarding cards, not cards already in the yard. If they have a Leyline or something, sure, LftL is sort of useless, but you still get 3 lands a turn from Land Tax.

Also, I wonder if you wouldn't put in Tarmogoyf as well, because it's, well, Tarmogoyf. Heaven knows you'd have lands in the yard, and the dredging from LftL could put nonland stuff in there as well (and your opponent would probably have something too). Something like:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Terravore
4 Land Tax
4 Life from the Loam
4 Seismic Assault
4 Devastating Dreams

...And a ton of lands. Hell, what about a sort of 43-landish build that takes advantage of Mulch in conjunction with Land Tax to get lands for Seismic Assault? Hell, Mulch would also put stuff in the yard to fuel Tarmogoyf.

Tarmo-Loam, anyone?

edit: I know it's off color, but it also seems like Trade Routes would make for an awesome way to make sure you had less land than your opponent, and also a powerful draw engine that couples nicely with LftL. Of course, by then you'd be moving into 4 color, which might be a strain for a manabase that likes to have a lot of basics. Of course, Land Tax = some hawt manafixing.

Finn

08-03-2007, 02:32 PM

HPC

08-03-2007, 08:22 PM

Pinder, how many times are you going to activate Land Tax with this deck? Take a moment to list the lands you would use, and calculate the number of activations you would get. It isn't many. And so Land Tax is of very limited use past turn 2. This is the problem you will continue to encounter. Enter Jotun Grunt.

QFT.

Terravore is 1XX, Seismic Assault is XXX, Devistating Dreams is XX

You'd need 4x Mox Diamond, and at least 8x - 12x non-basic lands. LftL with Sac Lands and Mox Diamond would be more valuable to your recovery after using D. Dreams than Land Tax (since Tax would only help you recover after your opponent laid their first land). I would develop the deck by adding in Trinisphere and maybe Goblin Tinkerer and Tangle Wire to lock down your opponent after a D. Dreams. If I kept white I'd want to add in Ghostly Prison and Armageddon.

But you run into a bunch of problems with this deck.
1) if you keep White and add in Land Tax, Armageddon and Ghostly Prison how do you keep a consistent mana base?
2) Is Wild Mongrel necessary for a consistent threat base? Isn't Seismic Assault going to compete as a discard outlet? Would non-aggro damage work better like Ebony Owl Netsuke?
3) Shouldn't this deck be running Wasteland and perhaps a Tabernacle at Pendral Vale?
4) Where are you going to fit in at least 3-6 basic lands? haha

I'd never counter Land Tax in this deck. There's a reason a deck with Land Tax and D.Dreams has never been fleshed out... it's because it's scarier as an idea. Even if fully realized, Land Tax remains the worst card in a deck supposedly built around it! LftL and Mox Diamond are more proactive in nature and work better than Land Tax.

Don't get me wrong. I think Goblins might have a hard time against this deck. But Threshold and Non-Solidarity combo will just shrug you off.

FoolofaTook

08-03-2007, 09:03 PM

Either Propaganda or you just take damage until you play Stasis. You shouldn't normally be getting to 3 mana without a Stasis in hand. If you do you can play Propaganda and stall the game a bit.

Your opponent will either be slow playing trying not to tap out so they can respond or you end up locking them down. They have to guess what you have as much as you do about what they have.

Both Propaganda and Stasis are going to see you hanging on by the slimmest margins against Goblins. I just don't see how you can survive trying to play a deck that takes 3 or 4 turns to setup without having a turn 1 and 2 answer to a nasty creature in the deck.

Just being able to kill Lackey is a huge improvement over waiting for a turn 2 or more likely turn 3 answer.

FoolofaTook

08-03-2007, 09:19 PM

Modified deck list taking into account some of HPC's ideas and increasing the synergy for Land tax:

4x Stasis
4x Land Tax
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Daze
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Counterbalance
2x Ebony Owl Netsuke
2x Wrath of God
2x Frozen Aether
2x Disenchant
1x Tabernacle at Pendrall Vale
4x Forsaken City
4x Flooded Strand
4x Tundra
5x Island
5x Plains

Fewer threats and more vulnerability to getting the kill condition removed is balanced (in my opinion) by the increased synergy with the addition of Sensei's Divining Top and Counterbalance. Ebony Owl Netsuke is not a perfect kill condition but once the lock is assembled it will do. Finding it won't be hard once the lock is assembled due to the fishing capabilities of Land Tax, Sensei's Diving Top, Brainstorm and Flooded Strand. Daze will activate Land Tax fairly quickly if not immediately.

HPC

08-03-2007, 09:29 PM

Both Propaganda and Stasis are going to see you hanging on by the slimmest margins against Goblins. I just don't see how you can survive trying to play a deck that takes 3 or 4 turns to setup without having a turn 1 and 2 answer to a nasty creature in the deck.

Just being able to kill Lackey is a huge improvement over waiting for a turn 2 or more likely turn 3 answer.

You have an excellent point. One of the things I wanted the deck to illustrate is that Land Tax in a Stasis shell wouldn't be broken, or even likely a tier 1 deck. The deck tries to focus on the lock because Ebony Owl Netsuke is the kill condition. Sacrificing your own life total in the beginning allows the deck to better focus on win conditions and accelerate the deck with its 6x Moxen and 9x Draw/Search cards.

I have played this deck with a lot of success against other Legacy decks. I'm not going to go through the effort to record play testing results until Land Tax is unbanned. If it is unbanned I'll add this to the developmental section and we can all discuss it. In the meantime, I wouldn't be offended if you'd like to try to improve upon the idea of a Land Tax based Stasis deck.

C.P.

08-03-2007, 09:29 PM

FoolofaTook

08-03-2007, 09:53 PM

I'd like to suggest a couple of Foils in the deck. It seems reasonable with land tax. I don't think counter-top engine belongs here, though, since it costs mana.

The 1 mana activation cost for the top isn't going to be an issue before Stasis comes down. Not sure about afterwards. I didn't want to put Reset in the deck because it's a very situational card and there are a few of them in the deck already.

You still have the Forsaken City - Land Tax - card removal synergy going. Whether it could be stretched to include top is not clear, both in terms of the second card removal a turn and the need for a second Forsaken City to make it work.

I'm kind of of the opinion that Land Tax - Sensei's Divining Top and Counterbalance - Sensei's Divining Top would have to be a before the Stasis feature with Land Tax - Forsaken City and the (hopefully) conserved actual mana-less counter spells being the after the fact feature. Land Tax will go inactive if the land pulled with it is dropped to fuel the Sensei's Divining Top, however that might still be the right answer in many cases.

I'd just have to see how the play went to know for sure. I had a very effective landkill deck (black-green-blue) back in the day that had just two damage sources in it and it looked so DOA as a list but it just walked over everything but red burn when it was played. It also had very strange before the lock and after the lock synergies and you just had to know when to switch gears and drop the one for the other.

C.P.

08-03-2007, 09:56 PM

Chai of Vapor works better than reset if you want to untap all your mana. It also answers random permanents as well.

FoolofaTook

08-03-2007, 10:44 PM

Chai of Vapor works better than reset if you want to untap all your mana. It also answers random permanents as well.

I've been thinking about Chain of Vapor as another way to activate Land Tax. The problem is that used against the other players assets it can shut down Land Tax.

How many decks would be happy to sacrifice a land to get right with Land Tax if I gave them an opportunity early on? I'm pretty sure Goblins would not, since they're focused on a turn 4 win. What about the other prominent decks?

C.P.

08-03-2007, 10:51 PM

I've been thinking about Chain of Vapor as another way to activate Land Tax. The problem is that used against the other players assets it can shut down Land Tax.

How many decks would be happy to sacrifice a land to get right with Land Tax if I gave them an opportunity early on? I'm pretty sure Goblins would not, since they're focused on a turn 4 win. What about the other prominent decks?

No, you bounce stasis to untap your stuff. I know that you like to be synergistic with Land tax, but building the whole deck like that is not going to help you.

And about your question, as long as I'm not manascrewed, I'll bounce it. No matter what I'm playing, with exception of ichorid and enchantress.

FoolofaTook

08-03-2007, 11:04 PM

No, you bounce stasis to untap your stuff. I know that you like to be synergistic with Land tax, but building the whole deck like that is not going to help you.

And about your question, as long as I'm not manascrewed, I'll bounce it. No matter what I'm playing, with exception of ichorid and enchantress.

Hmmm, sounds like Chain of Vapor might be too good not to have in the deck since it works with both Land Tax (bounce your own land) and Stasis. Maybe replacing the Disenchants, which it also partly replaces.

Zilla

08-04-2007, 12:31 AM

Oracle text: Return target nonland permanent to its owner's hand. Then that permanent's controller may sacrifice a land. If the player does, he or she may copy this spell and may choose a new target for that copy.
You can't bounce your own land. You can bounce something else and then sacrifice one though.

FoolofaTook

08-04-2007, 01:39 AM

You can't bounce your own land. You can bounce something else and then sacrifice one though.

In all probability Land Tax, Counterbalance and the top are the only permanents likely to be in play early on. I probably wouldn't want to bounce any of them, which removes some of the synergy with Land tax since CoV wouldn't be an early activator. In the midgame I'd probably be happy to bounce the top before Stasis came down.

I'll have to rethink things some. A complicated deck is a lot of fun to play however complication is not a good thing in and of itself.

HPC

08-04-2007, 04:15 AM

In all probability Land Tax, Counterbalance and the top are the only permanents likely to be in play early on. I probably wouldn't want to bounce any of them, which removes some of the synergy with Land tax since CoV wouldn't be an early activator. In the midgame I'd probably be happy to bounce the top before Stasis came down.

I'll have to rethink things some. A complicated deck is a lot of fun to play however complication is not a good thing in and of itself.

It's complicated because you're trying to "switch gears" in the middle of the game from a weak control to a prison deck. If you're going to do that you might as well be combo-control and just win. Stasis is a poor "lock" condition and Stasis + Forsaken City is useless if your 3rd lock piece is a 4 mana Frozen Aether. Do you ever play that card? Does it ever win you games?

FoolofaTook

08-04-2007, 11:19 AM

It's complicated because you're trying to "switch gears" in the middle of the game from a weak control to a prison deck. If you're going to do that you might as well be combo-control and just win. Stasis is a poor "lock" condition and Stasis + Forsaken City is useless if your 3rd lock piece is a 4 mana Frozen Aether. Do you ever play that card? Does it ever win you games?

There are only 2 Frozen Aether in the deck. I suspect its primary target would be other blue-based control decks since it's going to take more than a few turns to come out in most scenarios. It's a pretty good lock against control with Stasis.

It might also have some applicability against combo after the initial assault has failed and the draw-go phase has been reached. Having things come into play tapped would slow down a combo deck, although not critically since Lion's Eye Diamond does not require tapping to activate.

My guess is it's primary function in the deck is as a no-brainer pitch to Force of Will.

I have the feeling that with the right sideboard the deck is only "weak" control in game 1. Against some concepts it is pretty good control early on. This is not a Threshold friendly deck, with it StP, counters, WoG and potential locking mechanism that removes the need for graveyard hate.

I think based on Godzilla's point that Chain of Vapor can't bounce land that I'm probably happier with the two Disenchants over the two CoV. I just can't see a way that using CoV on the opponent would work since their response would likely be to remove a piece of a working combo and sac a land in the process to make Land Tax less valuable.

Having a deck that switches gears is not necessarily a bad thing. It adds another variable that you control and it's one of the few truly hidden variables that the opponent cannot expose prematurely since it's a decision you make. The question is whether the switching opportunities come up in a timely enough fashion to make the decks streams positive or negative. If this deck was relying on Frozen Aether then it would be an extremely slow switcher and probably DOA. One thing the deck is missing, and that I cannot find room for is a couple of Powersinks. Powersink would make Frozen Aether a lot more effective, because you could win a counter battle in the opponent's turn - untap - and then play Frozen Aether with a card removal to Forsaken City to feed Stasis on the first turn. I may try to fit a couple of Powersinks in, however 10 counters is too many and I really do not want to give up Daze, which is a powerful tool in a Land Tax - Stasis deck.

Pinder

08-04-2007, 06:42 PM

C.P.

08-04-2007, 08:06 PM

You know, as I was brainstorming more ideas for the deck, I wondered if I really even needed Land Tax at all,. Jotun Grunt seems like it would be hot tech, though. Maybe just go UWR, ditch the whole tarmogoyf/mongrel idea, and use Trade Routes/Grunt/Seismic Assault/Land Tax as an engine? You'd lose LftL, which would be sad, but you stand to possibly gain Countermagic and card draw, which could be nice.

Or maybe Land Tax just does suck that much, who knows?

One thing I wondered about Seismic Assault + Land Tax was the mana base. Wouldn't having RRR spell as a win condition put you on a heavy nonbasic land manabase? If so, How's Land Tax more justifiable than LftL?

Pinder

08-04-2007, 08:14 PM

One thing I wondered about Seismic Assault + Land Tax was the mana base. Wouldn't having RRR spell as a win condition put you on a heavy nonbasic land manabase? If so, How's Land Tax more justifiable than LftL?

Well, theoretically, a single Land Tax trigger could net you 3 mountains, so I don't think it would be that hard to get RRR over a few turns. And the deck would most definitely be running Mox Diamonds, so there's color fixing there, as well.

Of course, there's still the question of whether or not that would be better than just having LftL.

PunkRocker1134

08-05-2007, 09:10 PM

I hate to draw this discussion off but is there anyone who would like to test with me for this project?

Ninj4

08-07-2007, 04:04 AM

I posted the idea somewhere in another thread about what I think would be a good tax deck. It'd prolly be something like

4 Chrome Mox
4 Mox Diamond
4 Plateau
4 Fetch
6 Mountain
6 Plains
26

4 Seismic Assault
4 Land Tax
4 Jotun Grunt
3 Serra Avenger
2 Glowrider
17

4 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abeyance
3 Devestating Dreams
17

This is just a super quick made up list but something like that could be viable, right? between Land Tax and Jotun Grunt, there wouldn't be much of a need for Loam and you can cut green making getting your colors much easier. Cutting chrome moxen for Lotus petals seem like a good idea too.

Combo would seem like a problem but since solidarity isn't played anymore, and really the only way for combo to win is either through tendrils or belcher nowadays. Post board you can run Pyroclasms which kills all sorts of goblins. For further combo protection, perhaps angel's grace?

It seems like the deck would at least be a tier 2 or 1.5 deck once its tuned enough.

Zilla

08-07-2007, 04:47 AM

This may seem like an unconventional suggestion, but what do you guys think about making Land Tax (and possibly even a couple other cards on the banned list) legal in the next online Source tourney? A competitive tournament environment seems like the best way to validate deck concepts containing currently banned cards, and a Source tourney seems like an ideal place to try it.

Lukas Preuss

08-07-2007, 05:39 AM

Sounds like a great idea.

Whit3 Ghost

08-07-2007, 09:59 AM

Sounds like a great idea.
Definately.

DrJones

08-07-2007, 10:28 AM

Now we only need people who want to bring a deck featuring Land Tax to a tournament.

SouthAlly

08-07-2007, 10:58 AM

...or better yet, several people. Why not create some sort of motivation. Of course, you don't want only those decks either. Just a nice chunk of the field.

FoolofaTook

08-07-2007, 11:38 AM

It's a better test if no motivation is provided other than the normal pride of place that drives most small competitions. What we really want to know is if anybody believes that a very strong deck can incorporate Land Tax, either as an engine or as a significant contributor. If you provide a significant prize then people will go with one of the existing tier 1 or with a favored non-tier 1 deck.

Flash was so clearly broken when the errata was lifted that it became an immediate target of the Legacy community to break and it took no time at all to come up with multiple decks that were broken except in the mirror.

Land Tax is a very different case. There are going to be very strong decks that incorporate it but they will be more insidious in their play options and tactics than we realize. The one good thing that would come out of a Land tax unbanning is that W/U would immediately have another very strong permanent card advantage engine at it's disposal and I suspect that W/U is where the really gross decks would be.

Zilla

08-07-2007, 02:25 PM

...or better yet, several people. Why not create some sort of motivation. Of course, you don't want only those decks either. Just a nice chunk of the field.
If it has so little potential to be good that no one will play it in the only Legacy tournament on earth where it's legal, that kind of tells you something right there, no? I think people will play it because there's an inherent advatage in playing something unknown, as long as it's a solid deck too.

TheCramp

08-07-2007, 03:24 PM

I like this idea, a few thoughts...

If there are multiple cards off the list, can you use all of them? Or just one of the green lighted banned cards in a given deck. Being able to use both Mind over Matter and Earth Craft might skew things, and would serve as a poor PR campaign. My thought is you may use one card off a list.

It might be wise to have a subset of people who do not use any cards off the list and see how these “unpowered” decks perform against the banned cards. Red and white thresh, Goblins, TES, CRET, some sort of loam build should all be tested unchanged against the field.

All the adepts who can, should play. Other Legacy players of note in the community who don't frequent this site should be invited to participate, including employees at WotC.

The more people who we know are capable of breaking a card that participate the better.

Results should be compiled, edited, and sent to WotC.

I think this could be very interesting.

Zilla

08-07-2007, 04:19 PM

If there are multiple cards off the list, can you use all of them?
After giving the idea some more thought, I think it's best if one banned card is made legal at a time. Otherwise, the results may be indistinguishable. If, for example, some Land Tax decks do poorly, but some Hermit Druid decks dominate the thing, how can you know for sure that the reason Land Tax did poorly isn't due to the strength of Hermit Druid? I think one at a time is the better way to go.

It might be wise to have a subset of people who do not use any cards off the list and see how these “unpowered” decks perform against the banned cards.I think this is almost certain to happen on its own. There are plenty of people who have no interest in try to innovate with banned cards and will play an established deck type instead.

All the adepts who can, should play. Other Legacy players of note in the community who don't frequent this site should be invited to participate, including employees at WotC.This is rather ambitious, but of course anyone who wants to enter is welcome.

Results should be compiled, edited, and sent to WotC.Agreed, although I think perhaps that more than one tournament sampling should be included if we were to do this, because results from a single tournament are almost never really conclusive.

TheCramp

08-07-2007, 04:47 PM

I just got off the phone with a friend of mine who manages Quarterstaff Games in Burlington VT. They are resurrecting the con they used to run Northeast Wars. I proposed to him the idea of running this kind of tournament there. This is what he said:

They have rooms reserved at the hotel they are using that are unfilled and if a proposal were to be made by January 08, they could support a muti day event, in one of them. The con will be in April 08, but I forgot to write down the exact dates. He would be happy to host the event.

He anticipates attendance of about 30 to 50 for each of the scheduled type 2 and limited events that are running.

This might not be the perfect location as far as attendance is concerned, but we would have a lot of freedom to run the event however we want thanks to the lead time.

PunkRocker1134

08-07-2007, 06:59 PM

Zilla That sounds like a great idea. However who many people will play Tax and how can we be sure those lists are refined. Still great idea though. (Sorry I couldn't add more, Ill edit more on later)

Bovinious

08-07-2007, 11:30 PM

Land Tax is a very different case. There are going to be very strong decks that incorporate it but they will be more insidious in their play options and tactics than we realize. The one good thing that would come out of a Land tax unbanning is that W/U would immediately have another very strong permanent card advantage engine at it's disposal and I suspect that W/U is where the really gross decks would be.

Was this post a joke or sarcasm that I missed? Even if you think the card will be playable (which is still a big stretch), "very strong", "insidious", and "gross" are still huge misrepresentations of what would actually happen if the "card advantage engine" were unbanned.

FoolofaTook

08-08-2007, 12:42 AM

Was this post a joke or sarcasm that I missed? Even if you think the card will be playable (which is still a big stretch), "very strong", "insidious", and "gross" are still huge misrepresentations of what would actually happen if the "card advantage engine" were unbanned.

It's not a joke and it's not sarcasm. One of the fundamental tenets of Magic is that card advantage is a crucial factor in who wins and loses games that are fiercely contested. Land Tax is probably the single best permanent at gaining early and consistent card advantage. The tempo loss involved in delaying a land drop or returning a land to your hand will be largely insignificant in a deck that is designed to otherwise use the cards that Land Tax provides.

The fact that Land Tax casts for just W and that Swords to Plowshares also casts for just W increases the odds that the card advantage will be given to a deck that is able to deal with the tempo loss.

The fact that Daze enables Land Tax on turn 1 increases the odds that the card advantage will be given to a deck that is able to deal with the tempo loss.

Every example deck that I have seen people use to "prove" that Land Tax is not broken has had the appearance of being designed to prove that case (i.e. built to be weak and ineffectual so that Land Tax will appear to be so.)

Cheap permanents that grant an unusual advantage are among the most dangerous things to have kicking around any meta. Unlike instants and sorceries they create an effect that bends the game turn after turn and they put the onus on the opposing player to change the status quo or lose, and they do it for little or no expense.

Goblin Lackey is not a broken card. Goblin Lackey plus Siege Gang Commander, Goblin Matron, Goblin Pile Driver and Tin Street Hooligan is broken. The fact that most decks have 8+ ways to remove a creature mitigates the brokenness of Goblin Lackey but not a lot.

Aether Vial is just a broken card in an aggro deck. It's more broken than Goblin Lackey because most decks have far fewer ways to deal with it on turn 1.

Black Vise was a broken card because it granted a permanent damage source that usually did a disproportionate amount of damage for its cost and in multiples it was very broken. It also directed the opponents play for the early game: stay at 4 cards or less or lose.

Land Tax has many potential partners in the vastly larger card set that has evolved since it was banned. It will be very broken when people figure out how to combine it with those partners to make best use of its ability to grant card advantage. It was broken when it was banned and it has become more powerful, not less, in the interim.

Zilla

08-08-2007, 06:06 AM

Leave off about the brokenness or lack thereof of Land Tax in this thread. That's not what it's about. This thread exists to explore potential options with the card. That exploration can speak for itself on the top of brokenness. Anything else is just verbal masturbation.

ReAnimated

08-08-2007, 09:07 AM

Heres a list i don't have a mana base suggestions are welcome

4 Land tax
4 Scroll Rack
4 Lightning Storm
4 Mox Diamond
4 Burning Wish
3 Ivory Tower
3 Life from the Loam

And a Wish-Board somethign like...

Pyroclasm
The 4th Loam
D.Dreams
Other Goodies

Bovinious

08-08-2007, 11:35 AM

@ FoolofaTook:

Could you please present a list where Land Tax is decent, that is, after all, what this thread is about, presenting lists, not making claims without backup. If you can show me a Land Tax list to the contrary I'm all ears.

Finn

08-08-2007, 01:06 PM

Back off, pal.

It's easy to demand he present a list for you to beat on. He does all the work and you get to pick it apart. He breaks even at best. Everything is unsubstantiated at this point.

And there are other who think Aether Vial is broken (http://mtgsalvation.com/490-cheating-the-rules-of-mana.html). And I am quite certain that I am not uninformed.

Bovinious

08-08-2007, 02:24 PM

I'm not asking for the list for the sole purpose of beating on it, I am genuinely curious to see a list in which Land Tax doesnt suck. If the list is bad, sure, I may criticize it, but wouldnt it be a disservice to the builder if I didnt? Thats the only way your list would get better, if people were timid and complemented every deck regardless of how good/bad it was, most deckbuilders wouldnt get anywhere. From your response I conclude you disagree with me about Land Tax, but its the darndest thing, I didnt see a list anywhere in your post either.

I'm not going to go on too much about the fact that Aether Vial is fair, but that article is clearly outdated. Goblins and Threshold dominating GP Columbus, Landstill unviable. Landstill is on the rise now and Goblins on the decline, so I really dont see how you can say Vial is pushing whole archtypes out.

GreenOne

08-08-2007, 03:46 PM

I played for some time a Parfait deck in casual Legacy.
It can beat combo with chant, scepter-chant, ivory mask (if you buy time somehow) and powder keg (for ETW). However, the combo matchup is not that great.

The threshold matchup is good, as Nodes can be quite good vs them.

The Goblin matchup is fair if you have and early swords/nodes for an early lackey or a seal of cleansing / needle for vial.

Here's a decklist, lacking Land Tax

// Parfait 1.5

// Lands
11 [6E] Plains (4)

// Spells
3 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
1 [WL] Phyrexian Furnace
1 [MM] Story Circle
1 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
1 [MR] Isochron Scepter
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
3 [TE] Scroll Rack
3 [WL] Argivian Find
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [VI] Tithe
1 [MM] Ivory Mask
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [LG] Moat
1 [UD] Powder Keg
1 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge
3 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes
SB: 1 [MR] Sunbeam Spellbomb
SB: 4 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 3 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [MM] Spiritual Focus
SB: 1 [6E] Warmth
SB: 2 [DK] Tivadar's Crusade
SB: 1 [FD] Razormane Masticore

Obviously the addition of land tax is great.
A list with land tax would be
-2 tithe -1 belcher -1 seal of cleansing +4 land tax

The deck really wants to activate land tax just once or twice in the game, this can help.

Finn

08-08-2007, 05:30 PM

...but that article is clearly outdated...Well, yeah. But the link was simpler than restating my opinion.

Anyway, fine. I will present a new attempt.

3 Scroll Rack
1 Pithing Needle
4 Orim's Chant
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Porphyry Nodes
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Disenchant
1 Solitary Confinement
4 Land Tax
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Lava Dart
1 Seal of Fire
2 Seismic Assault
4 Devastating Dreams
1 Regrowth
3 Life from the Loam
4 Chrome Mox
1 Plateau
3 Windswept Heath
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
2 Mountain
6 Plains
2 Rith's Grove

Bovinious

08-08-2007, 07:10 PM

Hmm, that list doesnt look that bad, kinda is just a LFTL control deck with Land Tax added for extra gas. One problem I see is a low number of red sources, the deck obviously seems to want to cast Devasting Dream (RR) and Seismic Assault (RRR). Maybe add a few more basic mountains to fetch, or Mox Diamonds. So what's the next step in this process, testing the lists?

Pinder

08-08-2007, 07:31 PM

\
They have rooms reserved at the hotel they are using that are unfilled and if a proposal were to be made by January 08, they could support a muti day event, in one of them. The con will be in April 08, but I forgot to write down the exact dates. He would be happy to host the event.

I think this is pretty cool. However, I would suggest that if this does go down in real life, that proxies for currently banned cards are allowed (hell, it's already unsanctioned). No one is going to want to shell out the cash for a card that they can't currently use.

Actually, now that I think about it, it might be a decent idea to let people use more proxies than that, maybe 13 a la Vintage or something. I mean, there are undoubtedly going to be cards people are going to want to use for these Land-Tax inspired lists that might not fit into any other decks, so they aren't likely to want to spend cash for those either, since it's all experimental.

Finn

08-09-2007, 09:07 AM

Bovinus, these sorts of decks don't need a lot of red sources as long as they are actually capable of making Land Tax work. Once Land Tax is landed, you have access to any basics in the deck. RR or even RRR is rarely an issue.

The reason it looks like most LftL decks is because they have been patterned after the LandTax/Edge decks that preceded them.

I happen to think that a big weakness in the newer versions is the mana supply. You need"
1. a threshold of basics
2. sufficient white to land Land Tax ASAP
3. another color for business spells
4. moxen

Taken together that is a tight spot.

asi

08-09-2007, 10:07 AM

Land Tax/Seismic Assault might be ok, but really, I don't think Land Tax would be that good in heavy-white decks. I've seen an actually played B/U/w Psychatog-deck that used Land Tax for several purposes, like pumping 'tog. Could also be nice with Wild Mongrel, together with Life from the Loam in some sort of Aggro/Control deck, maybe even eith some dredge and Confidant (plus Birds/Therapy and maybe Quirion Ranger, 'cause of the good synergie with Birds and Land Tax). Maybe I'll do a list, but don't expect much.

edit: just tried, and doesn't look like it could work.

This is what I tested (built and tested in about 5 minutes):

4 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
3 Savannah
6 Forest (2)
2 Plains (1)
4 Swamp (1)
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Land Tax
3 Life from the Loam
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wild Mongrel
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

I really like the cute Ranger/Land Tax trick, and the fact that the deck doesn't need much mana, but with only the mongrel having real synergie with LftL and Land Tax, the card feels underpowered here. Maybe some Madness-variant could make good use of Land Tax because of it's good synergie with cards like Wild Mongrel, and it will occasionally make you discard because of 8 cards in hand EOT.

FoolofaTook

08-09-2007, 11:20 AM

BGW Land Tax Aggro

Enablers

4x Land Tax
4x Aether Vial

Creatures

4x Rogue Elephant
3x Plant Elemental
3x Necrotic Sliver
4x Nantuko Cultivator

Anti-creature

4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Dry Spell

Disruption

4x Duress
3x Last Rites
2x Sink into Takenuma

Mana

3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Flooded Strand
3x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Forest
3x Plains
3x Swamp

Basic concept is to get Aether Vial into play on turn 1 or Duress, depending on the opponent and your nerves regarding combo. Rogue Elephant and Plant Elemental are early plays to enable Land Tax after your opponent has dropped a land or two. Aether Vial should enable a fast rush in many situations and that may be enough to swing things in your favor.

Swords to Plowshares and Diabolic Edict are for Tarmogoyf and Dry Spell is for Goblins and Empty the Warrens. It's quite possible that 3 Swords to Plowshares and 3 Dry Spell is more optimal. No creature removal cards are ever blanks in this deck because they just feed Last Rites if the opponent is not playing creatures.

The discard disruption is not optimized at the moment. Duress is in due to fear of combo and to grab plows, FoW and other removal out of the opponents hand pre-emptively. Last Rites will be a feature of the deck, however Sink into Takenuma may be just too costly in a mana deceleration scenario. It theoretically works with Nantuko Cultivator, which is why I included it, but it may be too clunky in the end.

Land Taxes function in the deck is to enable the card sacrifices required for Nantuko Cultivator and Last Rites and to enable the extremely cheap beaters that require a forest to be sac'd upon casting.

Clark Kant

08-09-2007, 07:36 PM

It's not a joke and it's not sarcasm. One of the fundamental tenets of Magic is that card advantage is a crucial factor in who wins and loses games that are fiercely contested. Land Tax is probably the single best permanent at gaining early and consistent card advantage. The tempo loss involved in delaying a land drop or returning a land to your hand will be largely insignificant in a deck that is designed to otherwise use the cards that Land Tax provides.

The fact that Land Tax casts for just W and that Swords to Plowshares also casts for just W increases the odds that the card advantage will be given to a deck that is able to deal with the tempo loss.

The fact that Daze enables Land Tax on turn 1 increases the odds that the card advantage will be given to a deck that is able to deal with the tempo loss.

Every example deck that I have seen people use to "prove" that Land Tax is not broken has had the appearance of being designed to prove that case (i.e. built to be weak and ineffectual so that Land Tax will appear to be so.)

Cheap permanents that grant an unusual advantage are among the most dangerous things to have kicking around any meta. Unlike instants and sorceries they create an effect that bends the game turn after turn and they put the onus on the opposing player to change the status quo or lose, and they do it for little or no expense.

Goblin Lackey is not a broken card. Goblin Lackey plus Siege Gang Commander, Goblin Matron, Goblin Pile Driver and Tin Street Hooligan is broken. The fact that most decks have 8+ ways to remove a creature mitigates the brokenness of Goblin Lackey but not a lot.

Aether Vial is just a broken card in an aggro deck. It's more broken than Goblin Lackey because most decks have far fewer ways to deal with it on turn 1.

Black Vise was a broken card because it granted a permanent damage source that usually did a disproportionate amount of damage for its cost and in multiples it was very broken. It also directed the opponents play for the early game: stay at 4 cards or less or lose.

Land Tax has many potential partners in the vastly larger card set that has evolved since it was banned. It will be very broken when people figure out how to combine it with those partners to make best use of its ability to grant card advantage. It was broken when it was banned and it has become more powerful, not less, in the interim.

QFT

I think Foolatrick is spot on in saying that one of the best ways to abuse land tax will be with a U/W control shell using 4 Daz
e and 4 Chrome Mox.

But I think you guys are expecting way too much asking him to throw out a list that breaks the card. Decks, esp tempo based decks, take a ton of time, and lots of people working on them and testing them, to develop into a halfway decent list.

Think about this. The general idea behind threshold was there for many years, the deck with a near identical shell was played in Vintage under the name Bird Shit for years. And yet, it took almost an year before the deck was developed in legacy enough to even be considered viable.

Even goblins took a ton of time to develop and tweak, and the deck could have been ported almost directly from an old Extended list.

Fast storm based combo decks took many years after the storm mechanic saw print to develop to the point that they were considered viable.

Abusing Flash was a clear cut. It's a combo card unlike Land Tax a very complex tempo/card advantage card. Yet, even Flash, with hundreds of people working on it together, and with a GP pending, a much much much stronger incentive than a source tourney, took well over a month to arrive at an optimal list, and for a pluarility of people to believe that Flash is broken.

So expecting that someone will be able to develop a broken list of land tax working all by themselves in a few weeks is kind of ridiculous. And even if they do, it's hopeful that they would just post it, rather than just wail till the card gets officially unbanned so they can win early tourneys with the deck before more people copy the list, and people thus figure out how to play against it.

I think the source tourney is a fantastic idea. But I would be vary of drawing conclusions based on it. Tuning a list, esp a tempo deck like a Land Tax based one takes a lot of time. And card actually being officially legal is a far greater incentive to break it than is a card being legal in a very small venue and for one tournament.

PunkRocker1134

08-15-2007, 08:04 PM

Ok This is my idea for a more Tempo based version of Tax, and yes it is very rough, but it is a starting point.

// Lands
5 [U] Plains (2)
3 [U] Tundra
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
5 [OD] Island (2)

// Creatures
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger

// Spells
2 [A] Counterspell
3 [ST] Sleight of Hand
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FUT] Edge of Autumn
4 [TE] Scroll Rack
4 [NE] Daze
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [LG] Land Tax

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [A] Counterspell
SB: 2 [SC] Stifle
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 4 [JU] Solitary Confinement

It looks sorta like Gro on the surface, it runs almost the same amount of Cantrips, and the same amount of counterspells. It has a much better late game...hopefully. Tax, rack works nicely to keep fuel coming so Serra Avenger can finish the game. However I think it really lacks good game ending fat and raw power unlike the builds based around Confinement and Seismic Assault. I'm torn on running confinements maindeck or not, so it stays in the board for the moment. Im very open to suggestions.

Also Im still looking for a testing partner. PM me and Ill give you my AIM and we can work things out from there
--PunkRocker