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Lukas Preuss
07-30-2007, 05:40 PM
Hi everyone,

on June 22th, Doug Linn published a very unique decklist in his article on Starcitygames.com and stated the following:

It suffers from the European problem of 61-card lists, but check out what he crammed into the deck! Steve Sadin proved how good Counterbalance could be in Legacy at the last GP, and Hering makes full use of it here. He combines invitational winners Emo Jon, Mascara Bobby, and Chris Pikula (haven't come up with a silly nickname for that card yet) to generate a lot of early disruption and card advantage. He fits in seven cantrips to help out Counterbalance along with Divining Tops. A strong anti-creature suite comes with Verdalken Shackles, Swords to Plowshares and Ghastly Demise. And the buttercream frosting on this delicious cake is splashed-for Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker to get the job done! Hering apparently lives without fear of Wasteland, allowing him to put a seriously impressive amount of really good cards in his deck. This is worth further review.

Doug Linn wasn't aware of the fact, that Hering didn't invent the deck. In fact, it was developed by team aYb a few weeks before the Bazaar of Wonders tournament and had amazing success at two other large tournaments, as well. The deck is called “Baseruption” or, as our team nicknames it: “ayb.aseruption”. It put three people from our team (Christian “Windux” Wilczek, Dennis “Oddball” Kampelmann, and Florian “FlodO” Fischer, who did a great job inventing and developing the deck) into the top16 (with Windux and FlodO making TCool at the May Iserlohn tournament. FlodO and Oddball piloted the deck to two additional top8 appearances at the next Dülmen event, with FlodO winning the whole thing. To keep our exact decklist a secret, we asked the organizers of the events to not publish our decklists, since we wanted to further develop it and place well with it. Which we did.
After discussions and speculations on German Internet forums increased, we decided that it was time to release the Juggernaut and Dennis Kampelmann wrote a primer in German, publishing the decklist. Apparently a lot of people had been waiting for this, started to test the deck and had success with it, as well.
The following text is entirely based on his German primer. To understand some of the card choices, you have to be aware that the German metagame has some differences when comparing it to the American one. Aggro-Control is by far the largest part of the metagame, UWB Fish, Threshold, Deadguy Ale, etc. are everywhere. Landstill and Goblins are the other pillars of the metagame, representing Control and Aggro. Combo is by far the smallest part of the metagame, even though it is on the rise. Most Aggro-Control decks try to support the Counterbalance engine, which is important for some of Baseruption's card choices.
Enjoy!

1. Introduction
2. Decklist
3. Explanation of deck strategy
4. Explanation of card choices
5. Sideboard cards and alternatives
6. Matchups


1. Introduction:
In the middle of April, we realized that the impact of Future Sight and the errata of Flash would define the Legacy metagame for some time (at least until the bannings on July 20th) and, instead of complaining about the obvious brokeness of Flash, we decided to turn the tide and develop a deck that smashes the hell out of Flash and do well against the rest of the field, as well. The post-Future Sight metagame with Flash legal might not have been an important thing in the US, were large monthly tournaments are not as usual as in Germany, but to us, this meant that we had at least three 50+ tournaments that would be under the influence of Flash, Pact of Negation and Summoner's Pact. So, Oddball and Windux started to work on a deck that was able to beat Flash constantly, but could deal with Threshold and UWB Fish (both with Counterbalance), as well. They started with various aggro control builds and compared the strenghths and weaknesses of Threshold and Fish and came to the following conclusions:
Threshold doesn't have a good late game and is therefore unable to deal with control. If Threshold tries to improve its late game (for example if it plays Counterbalance itself), it becomes unflexible and slow.
Fish's mana curve makes it literary unable to deal with an opponent's Counterbalance in the late game and it is way too slow in the early game.

To improve these weaknesses, Oddball and Windux decided to create a deck that used Fish and Threshold's advantages and could control the early game with cheap counterspells and small creatures that guaranteed card advantage, but had the following, as well:
a solid draw engine instead of one that is based on cantrips only, so that the late game is strong, as well.
A mana curve that reaches from 1 to 3, with key spells in the 3-cc slot, to outplay an opponent's Counterbalance.
It doesn't depend on the graveyard, but doesn't lose speed in comparison to Threshold.

With this in mind, Windux, Oddball and FlodO, who joined the two with some great ideas, created the following decklist:

Baseruption.dec
//Lands 16
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island

//Creatures 14
3 Meddling Mage
3 Dark Confidant
3 Shadowmage Infiltrator
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tombstalker

//Spells 30
4 Portent
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Vedalken Shackles
3 Chrome Mox


Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
3 Spell Snare
2 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Pithing Needle
3 Vindicate

Explanation of deck strategy:
Baseruption is an aggro control deck that wants to put pressure on the opponent and generates an enormous card advantage, as well. This ensures that Baseruption doesn't lose its strenghth in the late game. It uses a huge amount of cards that the opponent needs to deal with, such as Confidant, Finkel, Vedalken Shackles, and Counterbalance, ...(maybe Meddling Mage) and excellent disruption to back them up. To ensure a strong early game, Baseruption plays 4 Force of Will, and 4 Daze, but also Chrome Mox. The Mox might be one of the most controversial slots, but I will explain this later. The finishers of this deck are Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker, two of the most efficient and fastest threads in the format.
Here a short glimpse on the deck's statistics:
Mana Sources: 19
Cantrips: 10
Counterspells: 11
Removal: 6
CA- Critter: 9
“Finisher”: 5

And the mana curve:
Cc0: 19
Cc1: 14
Cc2: 17/18 (Stalker)
Cc3: 5
(Cc5: 4)
/ (Cc8: 1)

Explanation of card choices:
Dark Confidant instead of Predict:
Baseruption is a very aggressive deck that wants to put threads on the table that the opponent has to deal with. Predict takes a lot of preparation to ensure a small amount of card advantage. Dark Confidant, on the other hand, can come down much earlier and creates card advantage, as well as puts pressure on the opponent. Just like other creatures in the deck, Counterbalance literary gives Confidant “Can’t be the target of spells”, which makes him a strong and reliable draw engine in the late game.

Shadowmage Infiltrator/Finkel:
The Infiltrator is one of the later additions that FlodO brought to the development of the deck. Just like Dark Confidant, he is a solid draw engine for the deck. He is not influenced by an opposing Counterbalance and makes the cc3-slot for Baseruption's own CB stronger. He blocks early Mongeese and is almost unblockable for most of the creatures in the format. Nice.

Meddling Mage:
Originally, Meddling Mage was, together with Chrome Mox, the strongest answer to Flash. Since Flash is now banned, his role is to protect our own critters from an opponent's removal, as well as to give the deck another boost against control and combo.

Constellation of Swords to Plowshares and Ghastly Demise, Shackles:
We used the split between the two removal spells, because we thought that the Flash hype would result in a huge amount of Meddling Mages. A Meddling Mage on Swords to Plowshares would make our entire removal useless. We never tested a 2/2 split, since Swords is in most cases better than Demise (for example against Mystic Enforcer, a commonly played card in the German metagame).
Verdalken Shackles is one of the most efficient cards in the deck, against all Aggro-Control decks it trades 2:1 and its casting cost doesn't care much about an opponent's Counterbalance, as well.

Tombstalker:
Tombstalker is next to Tarmogoyf the finisher of this deck. His evasion ability is very important in many matchups and just great against opposing Tarmogoyfs. His dependance on the Graveyard is not as relevant, because the rest of the deck doesn't depend on the Graveyard. It is useless to board Graveyard hate against Baseruption, and even if the opponent does, it is not as bad, since Tombstalker doesn't need many cards in the Graveyard. His anti-synergy with Counterbalance and, more importantly Dark Confidant might come to mind, but, since we run quite a lot of cantrips, as well as Sensei's Divining Top, and only two Tombstalkers, it is very unlikely to reveal one with Bob. The advantages are far more important and outweigh the disadvantages. If someone is not sure about this though, Sea Drake, Mystic Enforcer, etc. could be used as finishers, too, although they are not as strong as Tombstalker.

Chrome Mox:
This might be the most controversial slot for an Aggro-Control deck. Many decks have to do without Chrome Mox, since it is speed at the cost of pure card disadvantage. It is weak in the late game and a late Chrome Mox is the suckage. Combo like TES and Belcher are able to play Chrome Mox, because these disadvantages don't mean much to them, but how can Baseruption play Chrome Mox?
Well, just like Combo, Baseruption uses Chrome Mox to build up a fast early game and put pressure on the opponent. Even on the draw, Chrome Mox is an important tool that helps Baseruption to establish a strong early game. Baseruption's threads (Finkel, Bob, Counterbalance, etc.) all generate such an insane amount of card advantage, that Chrome Mox's small card disadvantage is not very important. Alternatively, an early Tarmogoyf on turn 1 creates enough speed to justify Chrome Mox. A late Chrome Mox isn't very good, but you have enough draw engines and cantrips to compensate these disadvantages.
But why run Chrome Mox as mana source no. 17-19, when 17 mana is usually enough for Fish and Threshold? This deck plays different than Fish and Threshold, since it wants to put more pressure on the opponent, while drawing a shitload of cards. Fish and Threshold use the first few turns to play cantrips. This is the time when Baseruption already wants to establish a strong early game with threats and gain card advantage over the opponent. Also, this deck has, on average, a much higher casting cost. To maintain its speed, the deck has to run more mana sources such as Chrome Mox.

If you have any more questions regarding the card choices, feel free to ask, I only covered controversial card choices and those cards, that serve different functions than in other decks. I will try to answer them as fast as possible and I'm sure the other members of my team will do so, too.


Sideboard cards and alternatives:
Engineered Plague: This card is the only answer to Vial Goblins, which is otherwise bad matchup for Baseruption, since it is one of the only decks that combines speed, pressure and mana curve in such a good way that it is too fast for Baseruption. Sure, Vial Goblins is on the decline, but it is still a strong contender in the metagame, so you have to run Plagues to beat them.

Spell Snare: We chose this card to deal with combo (Burning Wish, Flash, Tutors, etc.), as well as Aggro Control (Tarmogoyf, Counterbalance). These are the matchups, were bouncing a land for Daze can mean a significant disadvantage in speed. You bring in Spell Snare to take care of this. Since the deck doesn't have to rely on many slots in the sideboard to deal with bad matchups, this is a slot that makes favorable matchups even more favorable.

Threads of Disloyalty: This complements Verdalken Shackles and is a great card that takes care of your opponent's creatures (Tarmogoyf, etc.). An opponent that brings in Pithing Needle from the SB might be surprised to find ToD taking control over his creatures.

Pithing Needle: This is mainly in the sideboard to deal with Landstill, which is an important part of the metagame in Germany and was also successful due to the impact of Flash on the metagame. Needle hits Mishra's Factory, Engineered Explosives, etc.. Greenbased control is also on the rise in Germany, so Needle is even more important since it hits cards like Pernicious Deed, Survival of the Fittest, and so on.

Vindicate: This used to be Krosan Grip, but we quickly noticed that Vindicate fits a lot better into the deck since it is mostly based on black instead of green anyways. With this, you can also set Meddling Mage on Sword to Plowshares post-board since it won't affect you much anymore.

Other options include: Extirpate, Tormod's Crypt, Loaming Shaman, Duress, Stifle, etc.


Matchup analysis:

I don't like to make assumptions based on percentages, so I will only focus on the important cards in the different matchups and the sideboard options.

UGR Threshold: In the early game, it is important to prevent as much damage from early Mongeese, so that you're not under too much pressure during the midgame. Meddling Mage and Shadowmage Infiltrator are really good for this. The midgame should focus on gaining control of the game with Counterbalance and Tarmogoyf until Verdalken Shackles and the better creatures overwhelm the opponent. In the late game, Meddling Mage helps to lock the opponent down when Counterbalance takes care of most of his card (Mage on Fledging Dragon, for example).
Sideboard: -4 Daze, -1 Verdalken Shackles, +2 Threads of Disloyalty, +3 Spellsnare. If the opponent plays Counterbalance, bring in some Vindicates, as well.

UGW Threshold: Similar to UGR Thresh, but with less removal and not as fast. Meddling Mage is better in this matchup, since it is not as vulnerable. Sideboarding is basically the same as against the UGR version.

UWB Fish: Fish has difficulties to handle the amount of threats that Baseruption plays, which makes the matchup very good. If Fish has an early Mother of Runes and Umezawa's Jitte, things can get ugly, but you should be able to take care of this. Fish is slower than Threshold, so you should be focusing on the mid and late game. Counterbalance is great in this matchup. It basically nullifies the card draw from Fish's Dark Confidant.
Sideboard: -3x Chrome Mox, -1x Swords, -1x Ghastly Demise, +3x Spell Snare, +2x Vindicate. You could board Threads of Disloyalty, as well.

Deadguy Ale: This is a good matchup, because Baseruption has a very good mana base that is not easily disrupted (thanks to Chrome Mox) and enough card draw to deal with Deadguy's discard. The opponent will give you several chances to get into the game, if you use them, you should be able to win. Watch out for Dystopia post-board, you have enough answers to it, but keep one ready.
Sideboard: -3x Infiltrator, -1x Swords, -1x Ghastly Demise, + 3x Spell Snare, + 2x Vindicate

Vial Goblins: With Chrome Mox, you have 11 answers to first turn Lackey on the draw, which is very important. But even then, Goblins' mana disruption can be too much and keep you from gaining an advantage. Counterbalance is crap against them due to their mana curve and Aether Vial. Pre-board, your only chance to win is through multiple Tarmogoyfs and fast beatdown, which is extremly difficult. Postboard, things get better, thanks to Engineered Plague. But even then, it should be a bad matchup.
Sideboard: -3x Counterbalance, -3x Meddling Mage, -2x Vedalken Shackles, +4x Engineered Plague, +2x Vindicate, +2x Pithing Needle

Faerie Stompy: Thanks to Baseruption's mana curve, you're often able to ignore Chalice completely. Verdalken Shackles shines here, and in games 2&3, you bring in Vindicate as additional removal, as well. This matchup shouldn't be too bad.
Sideboarding: -1x Demise, -1x Swords, -1x Dark Confidant, +3x Vindicate

Burn: This is a great matchup, Tarmogoyf is a decent clock and Counterbalance hits their spells even without library manipulation often enough to let the opponent run out of gas.
Sideboard: -3 Confidant, +3 Spell Snare



Thanks for reading this, feel free to ask questions if things are unclear or if you want to know more about certain things. Even if this deck was created to deal mainly with Flash.dec, it will be a strong contender in the post-Flash metagame, as well. It had great success in Germany with an enourmous amount of T8 and T16 appearances during the Flash month and continued to be amazing afterwards, with even more T8 success. This deck is definitely very, very strong.

Thanks to:
- Dennis Kampelmann, Christian Wilczek, and Florian Fischer for creating this deck.
- Dennis Kampelmann for writing the German primer
- Everybody else who picked this deck up and did well with it already
- Team aYb for being awesome
- You for picking this up and winning with it, just as we did.

burkey_boy
07-30-2007, 08:56 PM
"Hering apparently lives without fear of Wasteland" ... you can say that again...

technogeek5000
07-30-2007, 11:43 PM
I dont like the Infiltrators in the deck. My biggest problem with them is that they are 1 power for three mana, and also for this three mana investment it dies to bolt, stp, and almost every other creature removal in the format. The way I see it is if someone edicts you infiltrator is always the card you pick. I think this card would be better as a beater slot... have you tryed negator.

Windux
07-31-2007, 05:41 AM
Finkel is such a good card.
The Power isnt the relevant. It draws you cards, blocks so much (Bob, Mage, all Goblins except Piledriver, Silver Knight etc.).

Also this 1 Power is enough. You don't want to beat your opponent down with it. That's why we play Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker. You want to get Cardadvantage.

Confi, Finkel and Counterbalance give you so much cardadvantage that you can protect your Finkel 4-5 rounds, or just let him die and play some serious threads.

EDIT: We live with some fear of wasteland. Some Fish Decks play it, also here are Ale Decks. But you can play around Wastelands easily. You have so much Fetchlands and also Islands and Chrome Moxen. That's enough.
if you play smart, you don't have to fear wasteland.

Lukas Preuss
07-31-2007, 08:18 AM
"Hering apparently lives without fear of Wasteland" ... you can say that again...

Well, Wasteland isn't as widely played anymore as it used to be just a few months ago. Adam Barnello wrote a lot about his reasons for dropping Wasteland from Landstill in his SCG article:

[...]the relevance of the Wasteland lock is waning in today's metagame. More often than completely shutting down an opponent, the Wasteland will cost both of you a land drop, and set you back further in tempo than the opponent. Threshold decks today (one of the most nonbasic intensive decks in the format) are built specifically with Wasteland in mind. They are able to establish a significant threat base even in the face of multiple lands being destroyed. Landstill cannot afford to waste time Wasting (no pun intended), rather than controlling the board and ramping up to four mana. [...]

This means that Wasteland isn't a major metagame concern anymore. Look at the top decks in today's Legacy environment, only Goblins play Wasteland, and they play a lot more mana denial, as well. Today, many other decks also drop Wasteland, because it is just not as good as it used to be anymore, the meta has adjusted to it and it rarely screws the opponent like it did back in the day. Even Übermadness (which loved Wasteland, because of its speed and the LftL reccursion) doesn't always run Wasteland anymore.

So, in short, even if we lived in fear of Wasteland, it wouldn't be the major concern of the deck.


Now, as Windux stated already, the mana base is much more stable as it looks. You have basically 8 Islands (one Island and 7 blue fetchlands) and 3 Chrome Mox, that don't get targeted by Wasteland. If you play smartly, Wasteland isn't such a large concern, of course it can screw you occassionally, but in general, you should be able to play around it.



Finkel is an additional draw engine, next to Dark Confidant. His main goal is to give you major card advantage over the opponent, not to beat down quickly. If Finkel lives and attacks for a few turns, you will most likely draw into Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, etc.
Also:

it dies to bolt, stp, and almost every other creature removal in the format.

have you tryed negator.
Negator dies to StP as well, and a Lightning Bolt on Negator can be just as devastating. Finkel ensures you a great mid and late game due to the card advantage he creates, Negator gives you speed you don't need and makes you less flexible.

C-Aleric
07-31-2007, 11:32 AM
Ahhh, 4-color fish. Beautiful. Or, I suppose 4-color BIG fish. More correctly, I suppose. I must start out by saying I love the list. Chrome Mox, lots of card drawers, fat threats, all the goods. If my meta wasn't full of mass board wiping Landstill players everywhere maindecking Humility/Moat/Wrath, and all that crap, I'd still be playing a different, but similar list. Though I suppose Meddling Mage needs to name something when you don't have Duress in your maindeck.

Force/Vindicate seem like your only answers to large artifacts/enchantments. Force is a nice answer, Vindicate is sweet also. However, I've found that Krosan Grip is almost needed in sideboards of decks that run :g: in my meta, even just 2 of them. I'm sure you tested this though. The list definitely looks tight.

It's nice to see 5 MD spells at cmc of 3, for Deed is another huge issue (especially coupled with some sort of mana denial). This is why I like the Shackles/Finkel with Counterbalance.

I'm from Canada, so I'd need to change a couple things to get into my metagame, however, it looks like you've done an awesome job fitting into yours.

Oddball
07-31-2007, 12:19 PM
No, it is definitlely NOT a simple Fishbuild with a further Splash, since Baseruption's ambition is to generate pressure from the earlygame till the lategame by combining cardadvantage with threats. That's a totally different aspect of gameplay that won't be seen in any Fish matchup, so it makes sence not to call the Deck 4c Fish.

Well, Vindicate has replaced the Krosan Grip in the Board as we realized that we play in its colours.
As Lukas has already explained in the primer, Baseruption always takes the role of the aggressor to force the opponent into the controlrole.
You don't want to support a card like Krosan Grip, because it doesn't fit in that plan of the deck in comparison to Vindicate for 2 reasons:
1) It is far less flexible
2) It has to achieve more conditions and is a dead card since an intended situation comes down
(i.e. boarding grip just because your opponent could have some random 1 offs like humility or moat is suboptimal)

Bardo
08-01-2007, 02:52 PM
Man, ever since I read Doug's article, I sorta fell in love with this deck. Thanks for explanation of Chrome Mox and other cards that seemed a little wonky (e.g., Finkel).

About the decks name, ("The deck is called “Baseruption” or, as our team nicknames it: “ayb.aseruption”) I realize it makes sense in German, but what's a rough translation in English?

Again, well done to you and your team.

Windux
08-01-2007, 04:08 PM
It doesn't make sense in german.
It's just a combination of Disruption and Base [aYb = all your base (are belong to us) for those who know it ;) ]

Bane of the Living
08-04-2007, 01:05 PM
I cant get over the single copy of Tombstalker. Is he really needed?

Why not 4 confidant or 4 stp?

Van Phanel
08-04-2007, 07:48 PM
I cant get over the single copy of Tombstalker. Is he really needed?

Why not 4 confidant or 4 stp?

Well, Lukas stated his posted list as the list that played best in team ayb's testing.

If you can't agree with that, then there is only one way to find an answer to your question:

If you don't believe the results of the testing of other people, you have to do some testing by yourself. But hat will always remain is the fact, that Tombstalker simply ist the best finisher (solely for the purpoe of actually finishing) of the deck.

Windux
08-04-2007, 07:59 PM
In a time, where Tarmogoyfs fighting Tarmogoyfs you have to play Evasion-Critters.
Since you have so much Drawing Power and Cardquality, this one "random" Tombstalker seems to be the best way.

Normally it's just the BB bad man, who beats for 5. If this isn't enough, just think about Tarmogoyfs who are dying post-combat because you play a 5/5 Flyer, who removing a few cards to cost less.

3StoP/1 Demise is because of the result, that 4 Removals are enough. The 1 Demise is the Solution against Meddling Mages who eventually name Swords to Plowshares as you, normally, only removal.
Since this deckw as build for a Flashmeta, we expected alot of Meddling Mages.

We cutted the 4th Confidant for a Tombstalker because of the reason, that our manacurve isnt that low:
Finkel, Shackless, Vindicate, Force, Tombstalker.

Solpugid
08-08-2007, 07:20 AM
I really like the premise of this deck (though I seem to like any aggro-control deck with 3 or more colors), but there are a few odds and ends included in the first post decklist that I don't really like. I'd like to address them.

First of all, I much prefer the top/balance combo in the board. Maindeck it weakens aggro matchups, which I'd much rather not do as they seem to be some of the worst for this deck. That change would free up five slots.

Second, the single ghastly demise is supposedly there for mages naming swords, but this play doesn't seem all that great when this deck runs evasive creatures (and good ones) and vedalken shackles (for addiional creature control), and swords is one of the only ways most UW decks have of threatening your creatures. More testing will tell if this is the case, but I'm going back to 4 swords.

Finally, is the single island really necessary? If you get caught in wastelock you usually still have moxen to give you colors (especially blue), so why not add another trop instead?

So, at the beginning of the post I suggested freeing up five slots in the maindeck. To fill this I would like to add 3 stifle/counterspell (dunno which yet) and two umezawa's jitte. The creatures in this deck are great for utility, but not so great as beaters (of course besides goyf). Jitte actually makes mage and confidant more relevant in the goblins matchup, which is very nice. The life-gain to counteract the now-increased life loss from Bob is also good. So the final list would look like this:

Mana: 19
4 Underground sea
3 Tundra
2 Tropical island
4 Polluted delta
3 Flooded strand
3 Chrome mox

Creatures:14
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Meddling mage
3 Dark confidant
3 Shadowmage infiltrator
1 Tombstalker

Instants/sorceries: 23
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
3 Stifle
4 Force of will
4 Daze
4 Swords to plowshares

Artifacts: 4
2 Umezawa's jitte
2 Vedalken shackles

Windux
08-08-2007, 08:43 AM
That's just bad ideas.
As you read, the deck was made against Flash and other Aggro-Controls, not against Aggro.
Also with Balance/Top Engine the Aggromatchup isn't bad at all. You have evasion-critter 4 Removal and Shackles. Also the speedup from the mox.

Counterspell/Stifle and Jitte are the totally wrong way to go. You have to wait for Counterspell or Stifle. That's just bad.
It gives no Cardadvantage. That's bad as well.
Jitte just steels your mana. Top also does, but top gives you CQ and with the Top CA.
You don't want to pay 4 mana, to get a creature sworded.
I would like to pay 4 mana, if my creatures where Troll Ascetics...Counterbalance makes them Troll Ascetics.
Why Jitte, if you have Tombstalker and Tarmogoyfs? Those guys are badass anyway.

The single Island: It's much better then a 3rd Tropical. You don't need 3 Tropicals for 4 green cards, if you have 7 fetches for it and massiv digging-power to find one of those 11 outs.
There are many situations where the Island is superior to a Tropical Islan, while the situations where the (drawn) Tropical, instead of the Island, is superior.

Lukas Preuss
08-08-2007, 09:34 AM
I think the suggestion of Jitte isn't all that bad, actually. It could improve your Goblin matchup, which is pretty bad right now. I think it should be tried, of course it costs mana, but if it makes Goblins and any other Aggro matchup more in your favor without actually hurting your other matchups, it should definitely be tested. You have enough creatures to support it and Jitte is just a very good card.

I think the Counterbalance engine is pretty great in the maindeck, though and it is one of the key components of the deck. I would not want to cut it.


The fourth StP could be added over Ghastly Demise without any problems. See, we chose to run the lone Ghastly Demise for metagame purposes only. This could be StP without big problems.

I don't actually see a need to cut the Island for Tropical. As Windux said already, you don't need that many Tropicals in the deck and it makes the deck more vulnerable to Nonbasic hate. If I was in a Wastelock, I would not want to rely on Mox only. With 7 Fetchlands, you have a great chance of putting Island into play, thus making your mana base a lot more resilent towards hate.

Solpugid
08-08-2007, 04:09 PM
I do understand the awesomeness of top and counterbalance, but that combo is incredibly reactive (obviously) and that worries me, since you have to sink a lot of mana into it to make it work. The same can be said of jitte, so having both in the deck is pointless.

If you take a look at my decklist above you'll see that I decided against adding another trop in place of the island. I added another U. sea instead, since black is the most needed color (eventually).

tyrcho
09-10-2007, 04:47 AM
You might be interested in this deck (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=156437&postcount=16) I suggested.

The current version I am testing is :

// 17 lands
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand

//17 creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quirion Dryad
3 Meddling Mage
3 Mother of runes
3 Dark Confidant

//26 spells
4 Daze
4 Serum Vision
4 Brainstorm
3 Duress
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Umezawa's Jitte

//15 side
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle
1 Dark Confidant
1 Meddling Mage
1 Duress
1 Mother of Runes
4 Force of Will

I am trying to improve the match against threshold, counterbalance and mongoose are the main problems.
I like in your version the Spell Snares and the availability of more blue cards (Threads of Disloyalty, Counterbalance, Vedalken Shackels) which I can't use because of my manabase.
The Chome Mox seem also a good addition, the decks both run so much card draw that you don't suffer from the lost card.

Nihil Credo
09-10-2007, 05:10 AM
Maindeck Deed along with twenty-one permanents that all die to it makes my head hurt. Did you try Vindicate?

tyrcho
09-10-2007, 05:22 AM
Maindeck Deed along with twenty-one permanents that all die to it makes my head hurt. Did you try Vindicate?
I haven't thought about it before, but you are obviously right.
Pernicious Deed was there in the previous versions where I ran fewer creatures and no Jitte.
Most of the time I blow it to get rid of a lone problematic permanent when my board is empty, or to reset the board when I have more cards in hand.
I'll use 2 maindeck vindicate, and in side 3 Deed, 2 explosives.
The only drawback is I have now 2 less answers to Mongoose...
Maybe I'll use Diabolic Edict in side instead of FoW since I seldom board them in anyways (and the matchup against most combo decks is already fine).

Lukas Preuss
09-10-2007, 06:58 AM
Baseruption made third place at the German National Legacy Championship. There were 175 people that attended the tournament, so this speaks once again of the awesomeness of this deck. ;)

aTn
10-14-2007, 04:00 PM
I saw a friend play this deck at a small local tournament last week (Montreal, Canada, about 30 players). I was playing UGRw-Threshold and I really didn't want to face this deck (I managed to finish first on tie-breakers but was lucky not to face him, he finished second - we didn't have time to play the Top8).

Anyhow, as a Threshold player, I was wondering what Threshold build gives BaseRuption the most trouble: UG, UGW, UGR (control build) or UGR (tempo build) ? In particular, does the mana-denial plan (Stifle + Wasteland) give you a hard time ? I guess it's not that bad because of Chrome Mox, but then again, that too can be Stifled. Is Burning Tree Shaman really that good against BaseRuption ?

In general, what do you consider to be the deck's worst match-ups ?

Congrats on the deck, it's really nice and I can't wait to play it/play against it.

Cane818
10-15-2007, 01:46 AM
I was testing out a few changes, and I was having some good results.

Lands
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island

Creatures
2 Meddling Mage
3 Dark Confidant
2 Shadowmage Infiltrator
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Doran, the Siege Tower
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Jace Beleren

Spells
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Daze
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Chrome Mox
4 Brainstorm
2 Portent
1 Mox Diamond
1 Midnight Charm
2 Ponder

Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
3 Spell Snare
2 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Pithing Needle
3 Vindicate

Cane818
10-15-2007, 01:48 AM
I was testing out a few changes, and I was having some good results. If you have any questions just ask.

Lands
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island

Creatures
2 Meddling Mage
3 Dark Confidant
2 Shadowmage Infiltrator
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Doran, the Siege Tower
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Jace Beleren

Spells
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Daze
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Chrome Mox
4 Brainstorm
2 Portent
1 Mox Diamond
1 Midnight Charm
2 Ponder

Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
3 Spell Snare
2 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Pithing Needle
3 Vindicate

Nihil Credo
10-15-2007, 12:07 PM
If you have any questions just ask.

I'd like to hear your opinion and reasoning behind MD Jace Beleren, Mox Diamond, and Midnight Charm.

Lukas Preuss
10-15-2007, 03:30 PM
Yes, those are some very odd choices. Why would you cut 1 Chrome Mox for 1 Mox Diamond with only 16 lands in the deck?

What does Midnight Charm add to the deck in your opinion?

and so on.

Do you actually mean that you got some improved results with your new list, or do you just say, that eventhough you made some very odd choices, the deck still functions pretty well? I'm actually not so fond of your list.

The only thing I find nice is Gaddock Teeg. He might actually be a very good (but fairly obvious) addition to the deck, since he could probably be much better than Meddling Mage in this deck, completing the "lock function" of the Counterbalance engine.

@aTn: I'm happy to see that Baseruption finally finds some followers on the other side of the Atlantic, as well. Actually, I don't know how the UG Threshold matchup is, but I can tell you about the UGr and UGw Threshold matchups. I basically covered it in the opening post already, UGw is a little better because it has much less removal than UGr. Burning Tree Shaman is pretty bad for this deck, because he can be quite painful if you're relying on the Sensei's Top engine, but as far as I kow, BTS has become an uncommon choice for UGr Threshold.

P.S. one funny anecdote: Germagic.de, the huge German deck database, actually titled Remi Fortier's winning deck from PT Valencia "Baseruption", because of the high amount of similarites... http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=10988

Citrus-God
10-15-2007, 03:37 PM
Have you guys tested Trinket Mage in the deck yet? It seems very strong, as it gets all sorts of tools to cover the Counterbalance engine, and grabs SDT.

It's also a 3c card so it can get around opposing Counterbalances and grabs EE for opposing Counterbalances as well.

Cane818
10-15-2007, 04:21 PM
Changes:
Doran, the Siege Tower
I feel that he is a better fit for this deck as the 5 beater. He makes shadowmage infiltrators hit for 3. He is easy to play with this mana base, and he dose not have delve that may hurt Tarmogoyf. Also he can help with the goblin match a bit by stopping piledriver.

Gaddock Teeg
This is very obvious, but no one said it so I thought I should at lest bring it up. He helps with the lock. Hes a wonderful card. If you need justification for that well I am sure if u look around you can find a forum topic or two talking about his strengths and weaknesses, or I can post links if needed.

Jace Belere
This card is a great source of card draw. What u do is play him, use his first ability, and get his loyalty to 5. Than all u do after that is use his second ability. When he dies he is food for tarmogoyf. If by some chance someone decides to attack him or use a direct damage spell towards him well that is less damage that could have targeted my life total.

Mox Diamond
Tell you the truth I never have a problem playing it. You could run the third chrome mox if you want its really not much of a different either way. The only thing is if you could play either chrome mox or mox diamond I would prefer to play mox diamond.

About the charm. I like the different charms. I feel that people do not see them coming and they all have a little bit to offer. But if you don't like it thats fine. I have had some success with them.

mackaber
10-15-2007, 04:50 PM
I must say I really like the declist and seeing it in action at the German Legacy Champs I was rather impressed. I see a few potential problems though and I was wondering if you have considered them up until now?

a) The manabase: The 4 Stifle 4 Wasteland Grow List will cripple this dec. Since to operate smoothly (meaning always being able to play any card it draws) the dec needs 3 different lands in play so as to be able to produce all 4 colos. This is a condition 8 LD spells are very capable of thwarting in the face of 19 mana sources. This will often leave you backpeddling, a situation the many high casting cost cards (3 drops) make hard to recover from.
b) The Goblins Matchup: I know this no longer is as big of an issue as it used to be but it seems horrendous. Partly due to the reasons mentioned above and partially due to the fact that many cards in the dec simply suck in the matchup (most noticably Mage, BalanceTop, Finkel and Shakels) and one has 0 solutions for a Vial and only Force and Swords versus Lakey turn one on the play.
c) The Danger of cool things: Tombstalker? Hacks you for seven with Bob. Is this an issue? Is he better than Enforcer, whom you could support just as easily and who pwns tombstalker.
And for the life of me I cannot understand the 3 bobs especially seeing that there are 3 finkels in there who serve essentially the same function but are IMHO drasticly inferior in every situation except for imprinting in moxen.
d) The role of agressor? One thing I love about Grow is that it can switch modes so easily, but you are working under the premise of always being the aggresor. Simply put I believe this to be a major design flaw since there are many matchups (mainly the 2 mentioned above) where you will find it very hard to be in a commanding position.

So with all these points of criticism do you think it feasible to build the dec with a mere 3 colors (UBG removing mage and replacing swords with demise and maybe adding thoughtseize against combo or adding a Trinket mage engine for more flexibility?) eliminating many of the above mentioned problems but obviously reducing the decs overall power level. So what do you think?
Cheers from Stuttgart
mackaber

thedarkness
11-08-2007, 12:19 PM
Lands
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island

Creatures
3 Meddling Mage
3 Dark Confidant
4 Shadowmage Infiltrator
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Doran, the Siege Tower

Spells
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Chrome Mox

Sideboard
SB: 3 Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 2 Vindicate
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 3 Aegis of Honor
SB: 4 Thoughtseize



I must say I really like the declist and seeing it in action at the German Legacy Champs I was rather impressed. I see a few potential problems though and I was wondering if you have considered them up until now?

a) The manabase: The 4 Stifle 4 Wasteland Grow List will cripple this dec. Since to operate smoothly (meaning always being able to play any card it draws) the dec needs 3 different lands in play so as to be able to produce all 4 colos. This is a condition 8 LD spells are very capable of thwarting in the face of 19 mana sources. This will often leave you backpeddling, a situation the many high casting cost cards (3 drops) make hard to recover from.
b) The Goblins Matchup: I know this no longer is as big of an issue as it used to be but it seems horrendous. Partly due to the reasons mentioned above and partially due to the fact that many cards in the dec simply suck in the matchup (most noticably Mage, BalanceTop, Finkel and Shakels) and one has 0 solutions for a Vial and only Force and Swords versus Lakey turn one on the play.
c) The Danger of cool things: Tombstalker? Hacks you for seven with Bob. Is this an issue? Is he better than Enforcer, whom you could support just as easily and who pwns tombstalker.
And for the life of me I cannot understand the 3 bobs especially seeing that there are 3 finkels in there who serve essentially the same function but are IMHO drasticly inferior in every situation except for imprinting in moxen.
d) The role of agressor? One thing I love about Grow is that it can switch modes so easily, but you are working under the premise of always being the aggresor. Simply put I believe this to be a major design flaw since there are many matchups (mainly the 2 mentioned above) where you will find it very hard to be in a commanding position.

So with all these points of criticism do you think it feasible to build the dec with a mere 3 colors (UBG removing mage and replacing swords with demise and maybe adding thoughtseize against combo or adding a Trinket mage engine for more flexibility?) eliminating many of the above mentioned problems but obviously reducing the decs overall power level. So what do you think?
Cheers from Stuttgart
mackaber

You bring up valid points, but having tested this deck more than any other deck, to the point where I got bored of it, I think I have some equally valid rebuttals.

First of all, the manabase: Your suggestion of cutting it down to 3 colors doesn't change the fact that 4waste4stifle thresh will slaughter the deck. This is a necessary sacrifice in my opinion, as the deck has at least some game against *every other deck in the format*. If they don't run 4 stifles and 4 wastelands AND DRAW THEM, they don't have a 100% win.

I agree that goblins can be an issue, but 7-8 answers to a turn 1 lackey is plenty. On the other hand, my list runs Doran, which deals effectively with the drivers and stops most attacks, often long enough to swing for lethal with Finkel. :wink:

I agree with you 1000000% on the Tombstalker argument, which is why I run Doran. The deck now curves out at 5, with the only 5s being Forces. Unfortunately, I have a nasty habit of flipping between 5 and 7 of my 7 3cc spells over the course of an average game. >_> Call me talented.

As for being the aggressor, I have to say that it is an aggro-control deck. The general premise behind this type of deck is not to be the aggressor, but to gain early tempo advantage and use that to gain board control around turn 4-5 at the latest, then beat with efficient creatures like Goyf and Doran. Also, please note that Doran makes Finkel beat for 3 and Bob for 1, hence my list running 4 and 3 in that particular order.

As for my own list, Aegis is amazing against Burn, which is a big deck on magic-league, and Thoughtseize is the current testing slot. Any suggestions would be appreciated. :)

Tacosnape
11-08-2007, 12:55 PM
Why would you run Aegis of Honor when you can just run Circle of Protection: Red, similarly crippling burn/sligh and also skyrocketing the success of your Goblins match?

thedarkness
11-08-2007, 12:57 PM
It's a metagame call. NOBODY runs goblins on magic-league, or else I would be running cop:red as you say. But goblins really isn't an awful matchup, I'd put it better than 50/50 most of the time, based on my admittedly limited testing with the matchup. But as I said, nobody runs it, so I'm not terribly concerned.

FredMaster
11-08-2007, 03:24 PM
I don't it's too smart playing only 3 Dazes as you wish to have one of those in the early, early game. Therefore i think it's odd cutting one. :confused:

thedarkness
11-08-2007, 04:16 PM
Honestly, I agree, but I had to drop something to keep it down to 60, and it seemed like the most droppable card.

Suggestions? I dropped 2 lands from the former build and added 3 moxes, hence the need to drop a card.

Nihil Credo
11-09-2007, 09:55 AM
I don't it's too smart playing only 3 Dazes as you wish to have one of those in the early, early game. Therefore i think it's odd cutting one. :confused:

Disagree. It's a question of when the deck should focus. Daze is, as you point out, excellent in the early game, but is mediocre to terrible later on.

Therefore, if you play a deck that expects to end the game by turn 4-5, Daze is a clear four-of. But if your deck plays for a longer game, the chances to draw a "bad" Daze increase. Thus, you privilege cards whose power is less depending on the turn you draw them.

thefreakaccident
11-09-2007, 10:49 AM
I just have a quick question... as a threshold player/ landstill player... how would you say those MUs would go from your perspective...

I have found that the stifle/wasteland package has proven time and again to fuck with people's manabases and I think that your manabase would be severely affected by such cards...

Your creature base seems a little week. while having good affectes, they cannot hold their own against larger threats such as nimble mongoose and the such...

How in the world do you support shackles?

Chrome mox is only good if you have a confidant or shadowmage in your opening hand to make up for the tempo loss, and threshold usually runs countermagic and creatures removal (UG being the exception with only bounce)...

Landstill on the other hand will chump all of your dudes, and sweep the board again and again with cards like pernicious deed and N.Disk.

I guess what I am trying to say is... play stifle for the wasteland issues... while chrome mox can lead to some silly opening plays, it also makes the deck inconsistant, and finally, run some better creatres... you can easily run a creature base of...

4 tarmogoyf
4 jotan grunt
4 dark confidant
2 meddling mage
1 doran the seige tower

that gives you 9 guys as big or bigger than opposing goyfs (they only run 4), and 9 guys that power over mongeese...

The 4 confidants want to be played, because while you only want to see one in a game, you want it to stay on the board and with only 3 sometimes you can loose your draw engine for long enough for them to kill you.

I would drp the shackles for more removal like 4th swords and ghastly demise (perhapes edict).

Oddball
11-09-2007, 01:46 PM
I totally dislike nearly every change you've done to the list in the startpost.

Tombstalker has had the role of the 5th Tarmogoyf. Doran isn't even a threat on its own. That wouldn't be a good argument not to play him, since Doran has great synergies with Shadowmage Infiltrators as well as opposing Engineered Plagues, but his manacosts of GBW in a blue based 4 color deck make it nearly impossible to support him.
Another important aspect is the fact, that there's no need to cut Tombstalker. The only point you've mentioned why you want to cut him is its anti synergy with Confidant and Counterbalance. But those rare circumstances of the gamestate shouldn't be the reason to cut that great guy.


The 4 confidants want to be played, because while you only want to see one in a game, you want it to stay on the board and with only 3 sometimes you can loose your draw engine for long enough for them to kill you.
Most of your opponents will focus their removal on your Tarmogoyfs, as they should, so the split of Finkel/Pikula as 3:3 is totally enough for the carddraw.
As you've resolved a Counterbalance, you rarely need the Confidant, since CB generates enough cardadvantage to control the rest of the game.

To the point with the Chrome Mox and its disadvantage:
Well, Baseruption runs 3 Confidants, 3 Finkels, 3 Counterbalances and 2 Shackles. That are 11 cards to compensate the disadvantage of the Mox.
But you are right that Baseruption has some problems in the current metagame because of the high amount of stifles/wastelands and its high manacurve.
That's why Team ayb hasn't piloted the deck since 2 months now.
I would like to write more about your changes, but I don't have that much time.

Tao
03-08-2009, 10:15 PM
*bump

A build very similar to our / Windux' current list

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22732

was piloted by LSV and Nassif to 1st and 10th place of the GP. Congratulations!

conboy31
03-08-2009, 10:56 PM
The decks look somewhat similar but they diverge by like 20%. The creatures and CB lock are whats similar.
Actual cards for simplicity: (3 vindicate, 3 chrome mox, 1 top, 4 land, 2 creatures, 1 daze)

Nekrataal
04-14-2009, 04:23 PM
I am trying out Baseruption. Based on Nassif's and a few other lists I came to the following build. The most "odd" choice is to run 2 more creature as most current lists only play 12 max or less. So 2 Sowers are creature No. 13/14. They are just mediocre in some matchups but provide 4cc for Countertop. There are some SB slots it can be switched against. These slots are very Meta dependant. It could easily be Grunts, Meddlings Mages or Gaddocks as well altough my first choice probably would be Gaddock because the fit nicely into the CounterTop lock piece.

Heres the list:

//Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [U] Tropical Island
3 [U] Underground Sea
2 [B] Tundra
1 [U] Plains
1 [U] Forest
2 [U] Island

Comment: 20 Lands, as much Basics as needed (To avoid non basic f*** and Price of Progress in particular). 1 Academy Ruins: If its out its probably good with EE which can be fetched and recurred.

//Creatures
2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

Comment: 2 more then usual. No random Tombstalker. Sower can be boarded against a better suitable creature at times also Trinket Mage could be boarded or creature count can be reduced up to 10 for additional solutions.

//Spells
2 [LRW] Ponder
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

Comment: Pretty obvious. Artifacts as one offs except Top. All because of Trinket Mage.

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 2 [SOK] Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 2 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

Comment: SB choices are very broad for this deck. What I had in mind is to have some GY hate (that can be fetched by Mages, although that might be too slow) => Crypt/Relic. Something against Swarm and Tribes => Plague/Darkblast. Grips are pretty standard, just 2 because of Trygon Predator main. Rhox War Monk proved itself in aggro matchups like Goyfsligh in a Bant Threshold version I recently played. Kataki is a Meta choice for me that could easily become Gaddock. Some more Anti red Counters (pretty standard) => BEB/hydroblast. Just 2 because I thought about boarding out Ponder instead of lets say Daze. Not sure if this will work out. Some more artifacts to fetch with Trinket Mage => EE/Jitte.

RogueMTG
04-14-2009, 05:23 PM
...
//Spells
2 [LRW] Ponder
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [u] Swords to Plowshares
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

Comment: Pretty obvious. Artifacts as one offs except Top. All because of Trinket Mage.
...

Shackles unfortunately isn't Trinket Mageable. Might be better just running more copies of things instead of Mage.

kabal
04-14-2009, 05:30 PM
Heres the list:

//Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [U] Tropical Island
3 [U] Underground Sea
2 [B] Tundra
1 [U] Plains
1 [U] Forest
2 [U] Island


You have no way to fetch that singleton Forest. A better plan would be:

-1 Forest
+1 Polluted Delta

Nekrataal
04-15-2009, 08:05 AM
Oh yeah thanks for your input. I found out about the latter when playtesting against Merfolks yesterday :/ Could also run 1-2 Windswepth Heath. It could fetch Tundra and Tropical as well. Although I think a basic swamp isnt necessacy I wished I had one when playing Merfolks. What do you think?

Ah ... Shackles, totally right, although I didnt miss it in my frist playtests. Mh I have to sort that out because I do not have another slot to free. Although Trinket Mage hasnt been amazing in my first games either. So possible solution -2 Trinket Mage + 1EE + 1 Shackles.

OK I playtested Merfolks yesterday against a friend playing with my own Merfolk build because I think Merfolk is a hard matchup for Baseruption. Well it is. I just could win about 1/3 of preboard matches. Lord, Vial, Thrasher, Mutvault + Wasteland and Standstill are just to much to handle. POstboard it gets much better though.

I boarded in:
+ 2 Grips (against Vial)
+ 1EE (against Folks and stuff)
+ Jitte (for opposing Jitte mostly)
+ 2 Engineered Plague (obvious)
+ 1 Darkblast (A lot of critters are just */1 as long as one can keep Lord off the table, especially it deals with Wake Threshers

against:
- 2 Ponder
- 2 Sower (too slow)
- 1 Top / -1 Counterbalance (It just does nothing with Vial out)
- 1 Shackles (stealing things isnt very good because e.g. Lord counts for all Merfolks on the table, so it is better to get rid off things)
- 1 BoB (didnt know what else to take out)

Postboard I won about 60%. There are still times when you draw no solution to what's on the table but EE, Plague and Darkblast buy you much more time. Double Plague is almost GG. Grips take care of the extra speed provided by Vial (and uncounterability) and the possibility to drop Standstill against your favor.

Mister Agent
04-17-2009, 03:21 AM
For some odd reason, I find shackles to be superb against creature oriented decks. Of course, the logic behind it is the sooner you can play and activate shackles the better. Although, shackles definitely has it's late game uses as well. It basically counts as a threat and a removal spell simultaneously which is relevant against "not quite shroud" creatures. Also, you should really be running a playset of engineered plagues against merfolks. They can dismantle tribal decks so run more of them.

b4r0n
04-17-2009, 03:45 AM
For some odd reason, I find shackles to be superb against creature oriented decks. Of course, the logic behind it is the sooner you can play and activate shackles the better. Although, shackles definitely has it's late game uses as well. It basically counts as a threat and a removal spell simultaneously which is relevant against "not quite shroud" creatures. Also, you should really be running a playset of engineered plagues against merfolks. They can dismantle tribal decks so run more of them.

I've found Engineered Plague to be disappointingly poor against Merfolk. They run so many lords that you often need either Plague + removal or multiple Plagues in order to actually kill their creatures. Plus, Wasteland/Stifle/Daze can make it hard to resolve 1 Plague, let alone 2. I don't know what else to suggest against Merfolk though, that matchup is no fun.

KillemallCFH
04-17-2009, 06:17 AM
SB Path to Exile is the best solution I know of to Merfolk. I agree E-Plague is pretty poor against them, but having access to 7-8 Swords makes the matchup more bearable. Although you are still very vulnerable to them just keeping you off white. And assuming you can keep LoA off of the table, creature-stealing effects (Threads, Sower, Shackles) are decent against them, acting pretty much as double-removal if you can cast them.

Mister Agent
04-17-2009, 11:40 AM
Well I thought engineered plague would be decent against merfolks just as long as you can plow or EE their lords away.

Steino
04-17-2009, 12:13 PM
//Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [u] Tropical Island
3 [u] Underground Sea
3 [b] Tundra
2 [u] Island

//Creatures
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

//Spells
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [u] Swords to Plowshares
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [u] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage

I’ve been trying this decklist and it seems to have what I need for a meta that is heavy on creatures, goblins, and control.

I’ve played Sower of Temptation but it doesn’t really stick around very long or it comes down too late to make an impact. I am trying the Meddling Mage sideboard because I’m having trouble with ANT.

Jittes main have granted that extra removal this decks needs and it gets helps with the life lose.

Thoughts?

Mister Agent
04-17-2009, 04:50 PM
//Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [u] Tropical Island
3 [u] Underground Sea
3 [b] Tundra
2 [u] Island

//Creatures
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

//Spells
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [u] Swords to Plowshares
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [u] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage

I’ve been trying this decklist and it seems to have what I need for a meta that is heavy on creatures, goblins, and control.

I’ve played Sower of Temptation but it doesn’t really stick around very long or it comes down too late to make an impact. I am trying the Meddling Mage sideboard because I’m having trouble with ANT.

Jittes main have granted that extra removal this decks needs and it gets helps with the life lose.

Thoughts?


Playing without ponders makes my head hurt you should at least play with one or two. You could probably could get away with running a sheer minimum of ponders since you already have Dark Confidants. Of course, as a countertop player I would play with as many as I can perferably four. I would recommend looking at Der Imaginure Fruend's list if you want any ideas.

For reference you can find his list here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13366

As for having trouble with ANT, I think Duress/Thoughtseize would work much better then mage would in that matchup ESPECIALLY since you already play with 4 countertop. They supplement each other rather well and even if you have a blind counterbalance on turn two it just seems that much better then meddling mage on the same turn.

Also, Duress/Thoughtseize has more uses then meddling mage does in any given medium. I also find meddling mage extremely lackluster in the past year; they are not what they used to be.

Adan
04-17-2009, 05:58 PM
For some odd reason, I find shackles to be superb against creature oriented decks. Of course, the logic behind it is the sooner you can play and activate shackles the better. Although, shackles definitely has it's late game uses as well. It basically counts as a threat and a removal spell simultaneously which is relevant against "not quite shroud" creatures. Also, you should really be running a playset of engineered plagues against merfolks. They can dismantle tribal decks so run more of them.

I can only agree with this. Merfolk is a terrible matchup. I played a few games against Merfolk and every game I won was on the back of Shackles. Without Shackles they'll most likely run you over. The second option would be to have 3 Goyfs and Counter-Top with perfectly ranged CC on top, but that's much more harder to accomplish under pressure than just playing Shackles and steal their dudes and turn them against themselves.

Shackles is effective against merfolk because Merfolk doesn't actually play a lot of creatures (and only the 8 Lords are actually relevant and threats to handle).

Nekrataal
04-17-2009, 08:21 PM
I can only agree with this. Merfolk is a terrible matchup. I played a few games against Merfolk and every game I won was on the back of Shackles. Without Shackles they'll most likely run you over. The second option would be to have 3 Goyfs and Counter-Top with perfectly ranged CC on top, but that's much more harder to accomplish under pressure than just playing Shackles and steal their dudes and turn them against themselves.

Shackles is effective against merfolk because Merfolk doesn't actually play a lot of creatures (and only the 8 Lords are actually relevant and threats to handle).

I tend to disagree. Merfolks run 20 creatures usually sometimes more. Shackles isnt that great because with a Lord of Atlantis out it doesnt matter anymore if you can steal one folk or not. 50% of the games I lost to such a Lord I couldn't handle anymore. A valuable play pre board imho are Trygon Pretators because they can not be blocked by Merfolk and simply destroy Vial, Jitte and Relics (often played main). Post-Board of course Grip becomes importent.

2 Plague were great for me. Not all merfolk decks play bounce and not all have the luck to power out 3 or four lords without you finding proper removal. It weakens and slows Merfolk especially if no lord is in sight. It destroys them if you have 2 out and they have not two Lords already on the table or ready to Vial in because then no Merfolk will ever stick again. Not to mention that Darkblast is also nice e.g. with Brainstorm ... especially against Wake Threshers.