[Article] Unlocking Legacy: Scepter-Chant [Archive]

Nihil Credo

08-02-2007, 07:08 AM

Here's what I posted:

I question your Goblin matchup, at least with the SB strategy you posted. First, R/G is the most common Goblin variants and they always pack Grips in the sideboard (mono-Red has Tinkerers, which is even worse). Second: unless you wait until four mana to initiate the Chant lock, you give them room to Hooligan your scepter. Third: AEther Vial means they can still deal the final points with Siege-Gang Commander(s). Fourth: your removal and blockers are just plain worse than old UW Landstill's, and Landstill was already even at best against Goblins.

I question your Threshold matchup. You have only three removal spells for each of their main threats (3 Starstorms - six mana plus Daze - for Goose, 3 StP for Goyf). They usually maindeck either Stifle or Spell Snare, both insane against you. They run more countermagic than you, which incidentally increases their chances of breaking off a Scepter lock and resolve Explosives. Postboard they have Grip (omg), Counterbalance (omfg), or both; you have Jotun Grunt, essentially a lifegainer in a slow deck like yours.

(Incidentally, if you play Scepter/Brainstorm and activate it once before they Grip it, you got even on cards but lost tempo (4 of your mana vs. 3 of theirs). If you imprinted anything else, you just got 2-for-1'd in addition to the lost tempo.)

Your combo matchup looks fine.

Your Landstill matchup seems solid (though the 4C version should be a lot tougher). However, if you're the ones with the clearly better win conditions, why bring in Grunts? They will almost never win you the game by themselves, and you end up relying on Scepter and Angel anyway. Even if they leave in Humility, they'll definitely board out StP, so why not bring in Mage instead, which is far more annoying for them?

Cabal-kun

08-02-2007, 07:45 AM

I'm tired of reading bad articles by Anusien, I'm writing StarCityGames asking them to stop printing his stuff.

outpost1@starcitygames.com

Or...you could just not read Anusien's articles? I remember PR saying something to the effect of "Thou shalt not visit SCG." It works pretty well.

BreathWeapon

08-02-2007, 07:54 AM

I started laughing as soon as I saw Pristine Angel, I stopped reading as soon as I saw Starstorm. Scepter isn't a bad control deck, it has the best Goblins match up in the format as far as other control decks are concerned, but that had to be the worst deck list for Scepter I have ever seen. Who bothers to consider Mikokoro, Center of the Sea over Academy Ruins, or like at all?

Nightmare

08-02-2007, 08:02 AM

Why was this printed on Thursday?

Peter_Rotten

08-02-2007, 08:22 AM

Hi, I'm Krosan Grip, and made a lot of things suck.

Seriously, aren't many green players including this card in their SB?

edit...and when I say Green, I mean most Thresh players, most Goblin players, and most Survival players.

SpatulaOfTheAges

08-02-2007, 08:30 AM

When people are playing more artifact destruction than ever, I like playing 8 imprint artifacts and no direct card advantage other than Cunning Wish->FoF.

This seems to have every single weakness that HNoL complained about Landstill having, plus extras as a bonus.

Also, how is Pristine Angel unstoppable against Landstill?

Lukas Preuss

08-02-2007, 08:52 AM

Well, I didn't read his article, I just scanned down to his deck list and decided that I would never play something like Pristine Angel in Legacy. Furthermore, I'm not interested in the archetype in general (unless something extremely cool comes along), and I will most likely win against a deck like this anyways, so I really just didn't care anymore after seeing his list. No time wasted. I'm happy.

What really made me think (once more) that he doesn't have a clue on what he's talking about was this little gem from the forums:

What other decks is Krosan Grip or something good against? Pretty much no one. Are you really going to waste sideboard space against this deck?
Seriously, I even consider Krosan Grip in the sideboard of my UG Solidarity board (Solidarity completely destroys Scepter Chant anyways, though).

C.P.

08-02-2007, 10:57 AM

The deck itself is very interesting, and the choices are unconventional but has some potential. However, as usual, Mr. Binswanger makes some random wrong statements to bring himself down.

Krosan grip, who plays green and not have the card in the SB? I don't care if it is over-hyped or something. It blows up any problem enchantment/artifact in the format and everyone knows it. Or, is green goblins, Thresh, Survival, or other green based Aggro control(which is showing up more than ever due to a certain 2 mana creature) not a deck in Mr. Binswanker's mind?

And reaching RR and 2 colorless looks like a lot of work with that kind of manabase. I know Starstorm is a fun card, but I do not think it belongs here.On the angel, it seems interesting. My personal taste says Morphling, but Angel might prove worthwhile, who knows?

Lukas Preuss

08-02-2007, 11:04 AM

On a side note, why didn't you even mention Research/Development? It is extremely good if imprinted on a Scepter and it might be a nice Cunning Wish target... did you just not think about it, or were there other reasons?

Anusien

08-02-2007, 11:14 AM

Pristine Angel and Morphling are the only cards that can fit in that slot that have a decent body (Voice of All is a 2/2, etc). I just like Morphling less; that critter is high maintenance. If the only card you fear is Humility (or I suppose Wrath of God, although that's seeing an all-time low amount of play), you've found the right creature.

Krosan Grip was a non-factor in testing. It shows your mindset that you think the Scepters are the only path to victory. Your Threshold opponent can spend all their resources to find a Grip and destroy your Scepter, only for you to play another one. Here's what I wrote in the SCG forums:

Once you resolve a single Fact or Fiction or land a Scepter (surprisingly easy, actually), you pretty much win the game. Threshold win once the matchup becomes about card advantage. This is why they often have trouble with the more well-constructed Landstill decks. This deck is pretty good at fighting through pinpoint solutions; they run poor cards like Mental Note or Portent, while you get FoF and Impulse. They're not fast enough to punish you for ramping up to the more expensive spells, and they're cold to Pristine Angel.

And by the way, Mikokoro is ridiculous, and Ruins is only good if your only path to victory is Scepter. It's nice, but you can't support another colorless slot on either of them, and the Tombs are just better.

Also, Chrome Mox makes it pretty easy to get RR against Goblins. It's amazing what you can do especially when you imprint a Lightning Helix on a Chrome Mox.

By the way, for all of you that absolutely hate me, I don't mind you e-mailing Pete or anyone at SCG to complain. I would also request you e-mail me (works better than PM) at kbinswanger@gmail.com or AIM: Anusien with specific complaints or suggestions. I've talked on AIM to a few people here, and I think it's helped focus me. I think we will find this is more constructive than randomly bashing me on the forums. After all, I want to write articles that everyone likes.

Re: Development. It's alright, but it's a pretty inconsistent 5. I'd rather not run cards that only work on a Scepter.

zulander

08-02-2007, 11:36 AM

If you're imprinting lightning helix on chrome mox instead of playing it against goblins you've pretty much lost anyways.

Lukas Preuss

08-02-2007, 11:42 AM

Krosan Grip was a non-factor in testing. It shows your mindset that you think the Scepters are the only path to victory.
Right, you might not scoop to a single Krosan Grip, but your comment on SCG indicated that you thought Krosan Grip wasn't a factor, because it doesn't see play, which is a wrong assumption.

Development. It's alright, but it's a pretty inconsistent 5. I'd rather not run cards that only work on a Scepter.
I draws you three cards a turn when imprinted on a scepter or gives you a huge army. I don't think it is weak, especially, since your deck wants to use Isochron Scepter as a supporting tool and an imprinted Research/Development is awesome. Did you actually test it?

jazzykat

08-02-2007, 12:03 PM

People,

I think it is important not to attack Mr. Binswanger as a person but to focus on the content and quality of his article.

Remember, just calling him a douche makes you look like one. Logically and systematically analyzing his articles not only keeps the discussion civil, it adds to the debate and useful information on the format and it shows you have higher powers of reason with which you may eventually gain credibility within the community.

Also, at first glance this article looks decent.

At second glance while I think the article was well written the deck has "opportunities for improvement" as stated by others in this format.

TheAardvark

08-02-2007, 12:18 PM

Pristine Angel and Morphling are the only cards that can fit in that slot that have a decent body (Voice of All is a 2/2, etc). I just like Morphling less; that critter is high maintenance. If the only card you fear is Humility (or I suppose Wrath of God, although that's seeing an all-time low amount of play), you've found the right creature.

Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot. This makes 0 sense. Humility trumps...well, everything but man lands, so how is Pristine Angel the "right creature" if you fear Humility? Because it's only :w: :w: :4: to cast? This just seems like an arbitrary statement trying to justify its inclusion, and it just means nothing. The Angel can get you 2-for-1s, yes, but you have to play spells for that; Morphling only requires U to stop what they're doing, and at no cost of another card. I'd rather play Exalted Angel, which can be played face-down as early as turn 1, and it can essentially nullify your opponent's attack steps. But what do I know?

Krosan Grip was a non-factor in testing. It shows your mindset that you think the Scepters are the only path to victory. Your Threshold opponent can spend all their resources to find a Grip and destroy your Scepter, only for you to play another one.

"Spend all their resources"? By "resources", are you referring to the cantrips they play as the deck's main plan, or just their draw step? They can afford to wait a bit, since your clock is pretty much nonexistent, then destroy the Scepter and resume their plan. Not to mention that they have a Game 1 trump for Scepter in the form of Stifle.

And by the way, Mikokoro is ridiculous, and Ruins is only good if your only path to victory is Scepter. It's nice, but you can't support another colorless slot on either of them, and the Tombs are just better.

Mikokoro and Ruins have little place, yes, but Ancient Tomb is an issue for me in a deck that can only really "abuse" it turn 1, and it's run as a 2-of.

Also, Chrome Mox makes it pretty easy to get RR against Goblins. It's amazing what you can do especially when you imprint a Lightning Helix on a Chrome Mox.

It's amazing what Wasteland, Port, and Tin-Street do to your mana base regardless. Yes, Mox makes it easier to get RR, but getting the red producing land + the other 2 lands you need for Startstorm isn't as easy, methinks. In addition, imprinting Helix vs. Goblins has Bad Idea written all over it 90% of the time, I would think.

Re: Development. It's alright, but it's a pretty inconsistent 5. I'd rather not run cards that only work on a Scepter.

Well, generally speaking, even though it "only works on the Scepter" (which is a falsehood, but whatever), Development is actually a solid card, as it is an additional draw spell and can also allow you to bash face. I've played the card a lot recently in Extended (without Scepter) and it has been great 75% of the time, and average-good the other 25% of the time. That's worth a SB slot to me, but whatever.

Kadaj

08-02-2007, 12:48 PM

What seems to be the common failing among all of these articles (among several other things) is that they all assume they have a good Goblins matchup, when in fact I'd be very surprised if they were even at 50-50. Barring turn 1 Scepter on the play, which even then isn't necessarily a lock because goblins can use port and wasteland to push you off your mana to use the Scepter, you have maybe 1 spell that really matters against goblins, and that costs RRX. Do you honestly think that you'll be able to keep RR2 (the amount required to sweep the board) up against Port, Wasteland, and Hooligan, all the while not being run over by the pressure Goblins can so easily exert? I highly doubt it.

Threshold really only cares about one spell in your entire deck, and guess what, they run 10 counters to prevent you from resolving it. Meanwhile, you run 4 FoW, and that's it, to protect your own spells. Yet again I think you're overestimating your deck's capabilities to simultaneously deal with pressure while digging towards it's inevitability. However, the Threshold matchup looks more winnable than the Goblins one at least, so I'll give you that much.

You looked like you got the Board Control and Combo matchups right, but assuming that combo is not going to be there in force is probably a bad move to make, considering combo has done nothing but rise in popularity in the last few months.

All in all, the article itself isn't terrible, but presenting a decklist that frankly looks badly unrefined and untested, and then claiming you would play it at a major event looks pretty bad. While it was nice that you went out of the way to emphasize that it wasn't the end all be all deck, or even version of this particular archtype, I think you would do better to look into your Goblins matchup more.

SpatulaOfTheAges

08-02-2007, 12:57 PM

Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot. This makes 0 sense. Humility trumps...well, everything but man lands, so how is Pristine Angel the "right creature" if you fear Humility? Because it's only :w: :w: :4: to cast? This just seems like an arbitrary statement trying to justify its inclusion, and it just means nothing.

I think that I may be betraying myself by defending HNoL, but I believe his statement could be more accurately stated thus;

"If the only card creature X fears is Humility, creature X must be a very good threat."

Which is theoretically true, except for the CC issue, and dying to sweepers, which Landstill runs in abundance. Which brings me to point B

Statements like "The match-up seems unfavorable, but it feels like it should be favorable" don't do wonders for your all ready thin credibility.

Landstill runs better draw than you, answers to your "unanswerable" kill condition, and ways of dealing with Scepter. I see no reason you would expect to be favored in the match-up.

In fact, I see no reason why this deck is better than Landstill in general. Landstill all ready beats Thresh, Goblins, and fast combo. The only difference is their draw engine is much stronger, and they're not as vulnerable to Needle.

Edit:

Also, all your arguments against how much Disenchant effects wreck you seems to grievously miss the point that, regardless if they single-handedly win the game from doing so, they just 2-for-1ed your kill condition, which is not a desirable position to be in.

hi-val

08-02-2007, 01:47 PM

If you're imprinting lightning helix instead of playing it against goblins you've pretty much lost anyways.

Au contraire. I found that getting a Helix on a Scepter against Goblins was a hands-down blowout. The other huge advantage is that you can use things like Chrome Mox and Ancient Tomb to hustle Scepter out, and you can play and activate it off of basic Islands. Goblins beats decks with Ports and Wastes, and when you sit on basics to cast backbreaking spells, you win. Extended players will back up how good Helix was on a stick against Goblins instead of just casting it.

Also, considering that it's play on turn 2, activate on turn 3 instead of play on turn 2, fart on turn 3, the Scepter + Helix plan isn't considerably slower and its benefits outweigh the disadvantages. Mainly, it's great because it works with colorless mana.

Like I posted on the SCG forums, I don't know if Scepter-Chant is a deck for Legacy, but this is close to what I'd run if the deck were indeed, playable. I think my version had F/I over Swords because it's better on the manabase and I ran Teferi for Timmy omg lockouts.

And Mikokoro is a total blowout : ) It surprised me how good it was as a 1-of.

Sims

08-02-2007, 01:51 PM

Au contraire. I found that getting a Helix on a Scepter against Goblins was a hands-down blowout. The other huge advantage is that you can use things like Chrome Mox and Ancient Tomb to hustle Scepter out, and you can play and activate it off of basic Islands. Goblins beats decks with Ports and Wastes, and when you sit on basics to cast backbreaking spells, you win. Extended players will back up how good Helix was on a stick against Goblins instead of just casting it.

Also, considering that it's play on turn 2, activate on turn 3 instead of play on turn 2, fart on turn 3, the Scepter + Helix plan isn't considerably slower and its benefits outweigh the disadvantages. Mainly, it's great because it works with colorless mana.

Like I posted on the SCG forums, I don't know if Scepter-Chant is a deck for Legacy, but this is close to what I'd run if the deck were indeed, playable. I think my version had F/I over Swords because it's better on the manabase and I ran Teferi for Timmy omg lockouts.

And Mikokoro is a total blowout : ) It surprised me how good it was as a 1-of.

I believe you misunderstood the quote. They were referring to Anusien saying he was imprinting Helix on Chrome Mox and not on a stick. Helix on a Stick I can see, Helix on a Mox vs. goblins seems silly and bad.

frogboy

08-02-2007, 02:25 PM

If you're imprinting lightning helix instead of playing it against goblins you've pretty much lost anyways

someone might've responded to this already but you are 100% wrong. Goblins' draw has to be patently ridiculous to beat Scepter-Helix.

edit: oh, you meant imprinting it on Mox. It would depend on the rest of your hand, but this can be right.

I havn't tested this particular version, but when I played the deck in Extended I didn't really care if someone blew up my Scepter; I just played another one or showed them Exalted Angel or killed everything they played.

Not having tested this, I want to add a land, cut the Pristines for Teferis, cut Impulse, cut Stifle, add a Fact, and add more Counterspells. I might also want to maindeck outs to Needle, but I havn't decided.

Anusien: Did you ever test an eight angel sideboard package? Exalted + Lightning?

sammiel

08-02-2007, 02:36 PM

someone might've responded to this already but you are 100% wrong. Goblins' draw has to be patently ridiculous to beat Scepter-Helix.

as was already addressed, the context was mox, not scepter.

Phantom

08-02-2007, 02:38 PM

Starstorm seems a horrible choice, possibly falling under the danger of cool things. What's wrong with pyroclasm? It does the same thing 80% of the time, for half the mana, and the deck runs enough draw/dig/filtering to bury it when it's useless. You bring up the Goblins matchup as one of Starstorms strong point, which seems.....odd. I understand you can occasionally hit that Warchief, but the casting cost will kill you more than the instant status will save you. Hell, if you do manage to get 4 mana, you can clasm and keep 2 mana open to deal with that warchief (and I wonder what costs 2 mana in this deck?).

You even bring up ETW as a strong point for Starstorm. You say that Belcher will often generate enough tokens to win in two swings. Well without drawing one of your 5 pieces of accel (and you have to gett RR by turn 2), Starstorm will lose you those games on the draw. Clasm never will.

Basically, you have a deck that wins if it gets into the long game, and you have chosen a slow, broad, mana hungry sweeper over a slightly more narrow, but nearly twice as fast sweeper.

This seems a poor choice to me.

zulander

08-02-2007, 02:41 PM

Yeah my bad, he was talking about imprinting it on chrome mox, not on scepter. Helix on a stick seems pretty damn good against goblins, helix on scepter doesn't seem good at all against gobos.

Tacosnape

08-02-2007, 02:43 PM

Your Landstill matchup seems solid (though the 4C version should be a lot tougher).

You're kidding, right? What exactly is he going to use to kill Landstill?

frogboy

08-02-2007, 02:45 PM

What's wrong with pyroclasm? It does the same thing 80% of the time, for half the mana

Pyroclasm kills zero creatures in Thresh. RR2 to kill Goblins' entire board is a v. good deal. The only real problem is that there isn't a fetchland that can get a basic Mountain and a Tundra.

You're kidding, right? What exactly is he going to use to kill Landstill?

Probably Pristine Angel or Scepter/Helix. I'd sideboard a Brain Freeze, too.

Nihil Credo

08-02-2007, 02:56 PM

You're kidding, right? What exactly is he going to use to kill Landstill?
He was talking about UW or UWg Landstill. It's one of the few decks that actually has problems with a Scepter lock Game 1 (must have set preventive EE), and it may be tough for them Game 2 as well if he has the sense of boarding in Mage naming Grip, as I suggested.

For the kill, yeah, Angel or Scepter/Helix work equally well

Phantom

08-02-2007, 03:07 PM

Pyroclasm kills zero creatures in Thresh. RR2 to kill Goblins' entire board is a v. good deal. The only real problem is that there isn't a fetchland that can get a basic Mountain and a Tundra.

Clasm still kills Meddling mage and unthreshed Mongeese. Starstorm kills Mage and all Mongeese. I fail to see a huge difference in the matchup except that SS cycles. He even admits in the article that it's not exactly hot against Thresh.

I'm not saying that sweeping the board for 4 is a bad deal (although RR might be) I'm saying that sweeping the board for 1R against the most popular deck in Legacy which runs port and Waste, is a much, much, much better deal, especially when you can want to be sealing the game up when you hit 3-4 mana, not hitting the reset button.

Wynk

08-02-2007, 03:34 PM

I like the inclusion of lightning helix over fire/ice. It made me rethink my deck list a bit, and I might take out a few f/i to test it. Its more poweful than fire/ice for sure, but I worry about decreasing the number of blue cards in the deck. Your sideboard choices of abeyance and jotun grunt are creative as well.

I noticed that you seem to focus on being an combo deck than control deck. Inclusion of chrome mox and ancient tomb hint at a mindset more geared for aggro/combo than control. ie. the turn 1 scepter. Your mindset is valid and when it works its great, but many scepter chant players play the deck like a control deck with scepters cast around turn 4-5 rather than 1-2. Lightning helix is great for an aggro player's mindset for instance, its a mini exalted angel. However many players like cards like fire/ice more as its is multipurpose and useful with FOW. I think it falls to personal preference here.

However, the mana base with only 20 lands, even if you have 3 chrome mox, may not be stable. 6 fetchlands and 2 tombs worries me. You have a nice assortment of basics, but you'll routinely be doing 4-5 damage to yourself every game. The mana base seems more geared for a counterburn scepter list.

Starstorm is a great card. I'd love to include it if my manabase could handle it. But getting up to RR is going to be painful against goblins, even if it is an instant. Maybe you can add more basic mountains? Pyroclasm may be more functional here. Its castable earlier against ETW, and while a sorcery, is just as functional vs. goblins.

I personally like Academy Ruins. I use too many in my list, but I also use Engineered Explosives in place of Starstorm. Its a good card to recycle scepters and removal if you go the EE route. Its not so good late game when higher cost threats can hit, but if you can hit late game with a control deck you're already doing well.

Bardo

08-02-2007, 03:59 PM

Kevin - I thought this was a great article. It was well-written, had good content (e.g. the rules 'sidebar') and this is an awesome looking deck. I don't get all of the bile being flung your way...

Re: Pristine Angel. I'll concede that it looks like shit, because, well, it does. But I've never tested it (hell, I don't think I even own one) and thought Exalted Angel might be better (with Tomb/Chrome, turn 2 morph, turn 3 flip), if not for StP.

hi-val

08-02-2007, 04:31 PM

You're kidding, right? What exactly is he going to use to kill Landstill?

In my lists, I had, of all things, Urza's Rage on the board for Wish. It was surprisingly relevant; you'd have 20 power of burn spells in the deck and then a Wish for a bomby card. It was probably too cute, though.

Starstorm is also nuts because it's an instant and it cycles. Neat tricks!

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-02-2007, 04:57 PM

Someday, people will learn how control is played.

As you yourself note, all other things being equal, it's better to just win now. You note this, and then you sort of move on without addressing it, but it's a very important point. Aside from pretending that your matchups are much better than they actually are, why would you play this deck? What edge does it give you over playing Threshold, which incidentally is going to smash your face in (unlike Landstill)? Or some other aggressive deck? Why focus on defense?

The recurring theme you'll notice in good control lists, and this is true of any format, is that they run control, not simply so they can say they're playing control, but to get to the late game. The late game is the heart and soul of a control deck. Why? Most decks aren't prepared for it. Goblins has SCG, and Threshold sometimes has Mystic Enforcer or Fledgeling Dragon, but that's about it, and compared to the bombs a good control deck wants to have at it's fingertips, like anything starting with "Decree of", these aren't that amazing. The late game is an ocean, a good control deck is a shark, and most poor mother fuckers can't even swim. A control deck that doesn't have ways to dominate the late game is a control deck that should not exist. What do you have? Pristine Angel. That's it. I would argue that your late game is worse at that point than both Threshold and Goblins'. Say whatever you want, without Scepter-Chant lock up and running and not being destroyed or countered at crucial points, you don't have anything. Which begs the question; why not play a Scepter-Chant deck that has other options in the late game, especially against decks like Threshold? Legitimately, what advantages does this deck present over Landstill or, say, Quinn (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6188)?

Also, didn't there used to be some sort of rule where SCG said they wouldn't accept articles claiming positive matchups against the entire metagame of a format with vague explanations? Whatever happened to that?

Bardo

08-02-2007, 05:35 PM

Also, didn't there used to be some sort of rule where SCG said they wouldn't accept articles claiming positive matchups against the entire metagame of a format with vague explanations? Whatever happened to that?
There were rules on article submission back when SCG used to solicit freelance work. After they made it harder to get freelance stuff posted (January), that 'article,' or whatever it was, went away.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-02-2007, 05:40 PM

I think it was still a rather good rule to go by.

Oh, that would explain why all SCG articles toed the line about how Flash was balanced... hrm, double-edged sword, I guess.

Machinus

08-02-2007, 05:47 PM

Oh, that would explain why all SCG articles toed the line about how Flash was balanced... hrm, double-edged sword, I guess.

*cough*

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-02-2007, 06:00 PM

*cough*

Oh, righty, my bad. I keep being surprised that they haven't banned you and continue to publish your articles, given my experience with Bleiweiss' usual methods. Although I guess you lack that certian Elgin je ne sais quoi.

Kadaj

08-02-2007, 06:50 PM

Because I was curious if I was missing something, or if perhaps there was some major synergy or combo that I missed in this deck, I decided to test a few games against standard Rg Goblins. Basically, I came to the conclusion that Goblins doesn't even need to use it's LD to screw you, playing 20 lands and only 4 redsources does that well enough on its own. Seriously, did you test against Goblins without Lackey or something? Or Vial? I got Helix on a stick on turn 2 the first game (on the play) and still lost. That should tell you something about how bad this matchup is. Hooligan is incredibly bad for you, and you have way too few sources of every color to reliably cast anything without disruption, let alone when your opponent has Port and Wasteland at his disposal.

In another game I actually got Chant-Lock going, and still lost. How? Because SCG and Vial don't care about Chant. Basically this deck has no way to realistically win this matchup without getting an outrageous draw and having the Goblins player mulligan to 5, since casting Starstorm was impossible every time I drew it. Seriously, 20 lands and 4 red sources? Not one of them basics? Chrome Mox was spectacularly bad as well, because it's a very easy two for one, and I never wanted to imprint a draw spell that might've given me actual business.

Maybe your other matchups are as good as you claim they are, but it's pretty clear to me that your testing was badly faulty in some form or another against Goblins.

frogboy

08-02-2007, 07:49 PM

next person who doesn't count mox as a mana source gets slapped. seriously. and this is coming from the guy who thinks everyone not playing threshold should add at least one land to their deck.

hint: if you're trying really hard to chantlock Goblins you're playing it wrong, because you would way rather put Helix on a stick. Use Chant to Time Walk.

I got Helix on a stick on turn 2 the first game (on the play) and still lost.

yeah this is why I think more permission is necessary. (assuming you slammed it into Tin-Street)

Anusien

08-02-2007, 07:50 PM

URABAHN

08-02-2007, 08:05 PM

No offense, but is it more possible that you don't know how to play or mulligan the deck? If you get Chant lock going and can't close, something is going wrong. It's possible that it would have been MORE advantageous to go to Helix lock as well, but SCG out of Vial came up a few times in testing but never did enough. If you can't beat a bunch of shocks, you're playing the deck wrong. If you're not imprinting aggressively enough on Mox, that might also be an issue. After all, if you can imprint Impulse on Chrome Mox and keep fetchlands open for Starstorm, that's one way to win.

I think your the quality of your testing and your testing methods have come under fire. Instead of blaming everyone else for not duplicating the results you've arrived at, maybe you should try to defend your testing.

Kadaj

08-02-2007, 08:19 PM

In the aforementioned game where I got chant-lock, there was no opportunity to put Helix on a stick because if I didn't burn it early there was no way I would stay alive (I had to kill a Warchief to prevent myself from taking something like 12 from a pair of piledrivers) and I never found another one. I was under enough early game pressure that I couldn't really cast my draw spells without taking an obscene amount of damage, and even balancing casting removal with draw spells I still ended up at 6 life, which was why SCG was gg. I never drew Starstorm that game, which didn't help, but even if I did I don't think I had double red on the table anyway, but at least if I had it I would've fetched differently to try and set it up.

Scepter Chant is not a difficult deck to play, frankly, nor is it a difficult deck to mulligan with. Would you mulligan this hand? Delta, Delta, Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Stifle, StP, Helix? That's the hand that ended up losing me the game even after I had Helix going for a bit. I didn't aggresively go after Chant-Lock, primarily because I know full well it's not actually a lock against goblins and recurring Helixes are just better than Chants. It wasn't like I chose to prioritize Chant over Helix on a Scepter, it was that if I didn't use Chant as a time walk at least a couple of times I would've died. In the end it didn't matter because I was under enough pressure that SCG killed me anyway.

As far as not counting Mox as a mana source, I don't it as a mana source because it's not totally reliable. There are times where you can't afford to imprint something on it, or where you are in topdeck mode and it's not even a land. It's more like 1.5 mana sources instead of 3, and I certainly wouldn't count it as a redsource against goblins because your only red spells are the ones you want most against goblins (Starstorm and Helix)

frogboy

08-02-2007, 09:59 PM

I can promise you misplayed at least one of your Brainstorms. Does that count?

As far as not counting Mox as a mana source, I don't it as a mana source because it's not totally reliable. There are times where you can't afford to imprint something on it, or where you are in topdeck mode and it's not even a land.

Usually being in topdeck mode implies you have plenty of land.

Kadaj

08-02-2007, 10:18 PM

Usually, but not necessarily. Especially since this deck only runs 2 cards MD that put extra cards into its hand and 7 cards that cause card disadvantage. And yes, it is pretty likely I made some minor mistakes here and there, but that's a given considering just about everyone here makes a mistake during every game of magic they play. I freely admit I'm not a spectacular magic player, and that it's pretty much a given I didn't play a perfect game of magic, but not too many people would've in that situation either.

Also, I apologize if my previous posts sounded overly offensive or derogatory, I'd just like to hear the logic behind Anusien's claims, in particular the Goblins matchup.

sammiel

08-02-2007, 10:42 PM

actually the deck runs 11 cards that cause disadvantage, chrome mox for accel, isochron for virtual advantage, and force for tempo/whatever.

I pulled forces, went to 4 chromes, 3 iso, and dropped the tombs, added a bit better draw, the deck performs better in general, and although not having force hurts, what the hell are you gonna do in a deck with 11 cards that take two to play.

the problem is that people are trying to have their cake and eat it too, which you can't do in legacy unless you play goblins. In extended, you can run chrome mox and iso because FoW is available...but you cant run all of them. You have to choose between acceleration and free countermagic, but your free countermagic doesn't win you the game, it just keeps you from losing.

Also, cunning wish isn't card advantage, it's card parity. Sure, it's great sometimes, but I think a better solution is to drop it and FoW, run more draw and broader answers. I've almost got a list together, i'll post it when i'm happy with it.

hi-val

08-03-2007, 12:38 PM

It's worth testing F/I over Swords. I like it a lot better since it's easier on the mana. On a Scepter, it acts like STP against an attacker by tapping it while it draws you into more lands, more removal, more goods. The other thing is a tactical move; it's often better to hold a Brainstorm if you have Scepter in hand because the card advantage from Brainstorming every turn buries just about everything (even Goblins).

Anusien

08-03-2007, 04:28 PM

I think your the quality of your testing and your testing methods have come under fire. Instead of blaming everyone else for not duplicating the results you've arrived at, maybe you should try to defend your testing.
As I said in the article, I two-fisted over Magic Workstation. I assumed you didn't know what cards the deck ran but once the deck ID was made you knew the list (since both were stock). I alternated going first. My Chant lists were various ones including the most recent list, and the Goblins deck was the MonoR one from Machinus's DFD win, with consideration paid to when Tin-Street would have been better or worse than Tinkerer (worse almost all the time, because of how often Goblins had Vial).

I can see the appeal of Fire/Ice in the Goblins matchup. My concern is just how much worse it is in the Threshold matchup; the Threshold matchup is much much more important nowadays anyway.

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that my months of practice with the deck or someone else's experience (Frogboy PTQed with Stick in 1.x) make me more able to play the deck than someone who just picked it up.

Zilla

08-03-2007, 04:34 PM

I can see the appeal of Fire/Ice in the Goblins matchup. My concern is just how much worse it is in the Threshold matchup; the Threshold matchup is much much more important nowadays anyway.
Fire/Ice is arguably better in the Thresh matchup than StP when it's attached to a stick. They both kill Meddling Mage, neither affects Mongoose, and where StP removes Tarmogoyf and gives your opponent life, Ice locks it down indefinitely and draws you a card every time you do it, while acting as an alternate win condition.

C.P.

08-03-2007, 05:52 PM

Fire/Ice is arguably better in the Thresh matchup than StP when it's attached to a stick. They both kill Meddling Mage, neither affects Mongoose, and where StP removes Tarmogoyf and gives your opponent life, Ice locks it down indefinitely and draws you a card every time you do it, while acting as an alternate win condition.

I don't think that makes it better. F/I cannot stop threshold from having a large army of bears and goyfs and beat you down. Considering the nature of the deck, I don't think the tempo gained by F/I will help you much.

Zilla

08-03-2007, 06:18 PM

I don't think that makes it better. F/I cannot stop threshold from having a large army of bears and goyfs and beat you down. Considering the nature of the deck, I don't think the tempo gained by F/I will help you much.
You don't really gain tempo from Icing an attacker. Typically you break even. You gain card advantage, which is what wins control games against aggro-control.

C.P.

08-03-2007, 06:48 PM

You don't really gain tempo from Icing an attacker. Typically you break even. You gain card advantage, which is what wins control games against aggro-control.

I got your point on tempo.

However, that still does not convince me on F/I. This deck does not have way of utilizing the CA to full extent. Your one and only sweeper is bad against thresh because it requires at least 3RR to do something relevant, and removals other than StP will not 1 on 1 with their threats. You are most likely to lose the counter war when the Starstorm is on the stack due to its casting cost and the deck being light on counter, so 1 card per turn with holding one attacker back does not seem very helpful.

Phantom

08-03-2007, 07:07 PM

I think I'm actually with C.P. on this one over Zilla, which is kinda strange for me. I can't really see F/I being better than Stp vs. Thresh for a few reasons (at least this is my thinking so far):

1) You aren't always going to have a stick ready when you draw this slot (especially since they are both 3 ofs). Off the stick, there is really no comparison.

2) The stick might not stick around. They have needle. They have EE. They can board in Grip and the one that flashes back. If this happens with F/I tapping out a goyf (or a flying Threshed fattie), that goyf is still there and quite angry.

3) It's on a stick, but they play a second creature.

Basically, I think F/I is amazing in the perfect situation of a resolved stick that activated throughout the game. But really, how many of these games do you lose? The fact that StP is a better all around answer (and the RFG factor comes into play on occasion) would make me play it. Similar to how U/G madness decks run Brainstorm over Careful Study.

Still, I won't argue too firmly since I have only a little experience with the deck.

Zilla

08-03-2007, 07:59 PM

I may have accidentally come across as suggesting that Scepter Chant can beat Thresh reliably, which isn't what I meant to suggest. You don't need to list all the the reasons why Thresh will likely destroy Scepter Chant, because you're preaching to the choir. Thresh has more threat density, maindecked Needle, sideboard Grip, better card filtering, and at least double the number of counters. Given the choice between facing Scepter Chant and Landstill with Thresh, I would choose Scepter Chant without a second thought.

With that out of the way, my assertions about F/I are working under a couple of (possibly incorrect) assumptions:

1. Most Thresh lists I see these days don't run Werebear and Tarmogoyf. They just run Tarmogoyf, and possibly 1-2 Enforcer or Dragons. Having played with and against Thresh a great deal in the last several weeks, my experience has been that Thresh rarely has more than one targetable threat on the board at any given time, particularly when Thresh is facing a deck that runs board sweepers. In this scenario, I'd rather have a F/I than an StP because I'm controlling my opponent's creature and getting card advantage at the same time. If you're playing against Thresh that's packing both Tarmogoyf and Werebear, you have nearly double the StP targets, in which case I would agree that it's the better choice. This just hasn't been the case for me. At the last tournament I went to, out of 22 players, nearly half were playing Thresh, and only one of them had Werebears in addition to Tarmogoyfs, so that's where my perspective is on the issue.

2. Anusien's list basically has no win conditions in it. StP on a stick isn't a win condition. F/I is, albeit a shitty one.

3. Being that this is a control deck, its goal is to survive to the lategame, and to generate overwhelming card advantage. Fire/Ice on a stick will allow the deck to stall to the lategame similarly to StP on a stick. Fire/Ice will be generating more card advantage, however.

That's the basis of my suggestion. And it's pure theorycraft. I haven't actually tested with Scepter Chant since Pithing Needle was printed. I openly admit that StP can be the better choice in certain scenarios. In a general sense, I think F/I is going to be the better call in most metagames, since it's better against Goblins, is easier on the manabase, is an alternate win condition, isn't dead against combo, and is potentially comparable in the Thresh matchup.

C.P.

08-03-2007, 09:09 PM

@ Zilla

1.My team's list runs bears and goyf, so I just assumed on the list. I guess F/I can stop just the goyf.

2. Well, it does run angel. I agree that it sucks balls, though.

3. It is not really a control deck. It has absolutely no late game plans to go with. Even Its manabase is built in a way that the lategame will be a pain. It's is more like a deck that relies on soft lock to win the game. It is not aggro control, but I would not call it pure control either.

Illissius

08-04-2007, 05:48 AM

Another way to cheat Scepter besides Research // Development worth considering is Odds // Ends. It happens to be in all of your colors, and even the Odds half is somewhat useful; Ends on a stick, meanwhile, sounds powerful. It's still probably better as a Wish target than maindeck, though, if anything.

Also, what about Memory Lapse? It's easier on the mana than Counterspell and a (very) soft lock with Scepter. No idea if it's any good; just throwing it out there.

Lastly, if you're not running black for Extirpate, Honor the Fallen could be worth a look.

Wynk

08-04-2007, 01:43 PM

I personally wouldn't feel comfortable imprinting fire/ice on a scepter against Threshold. For one, it only kills meddling mage if they play that. Also, icing a tarmogoyf is nice, but giving their cantrip package, their going to get a stifle, a FOW, counterspell, EE, another goyf, a mongoose, etc. Its a temporary delay tactic that gets you a few cards, but will eventually leave the threat viable unless you run real sweepers like starstorm. And even then you need a BIG starstorm to take out goyf.

STP atleasts gets rid of the gofy/bear although its dead vs combo.

Question: If Scepter Chant maindecked EE, would it have a better Thresh matchup given that most of the threats cost 1 or 2 mana? Chant is a control deck supposedly, so it doesn't need to use a scepter early.

Bane of the Living

08-04-2007, 04:29 PM

If I were to waste time in this archetype Id start ground up.

I see no reason to start porting the extended deck to legacy. Scepter Chant was a metagame deck, and a bad one imho.

I would start by taking Chant out of the deck. Taking Wish out since its slow as balls and focus on playing cheap threats backed by solid spells and an occasional Scepter imprints. Fuck sake Pristine Angel??

Add Tarmagoyf!

Opps, it just happened again..

Eldariel

08-04-2007, 04:36 PM

I think the biggest problem with this particular build of the deck is that it's having an identity crisis. It's a control-deck that's built to be aggro/control. The problem? Aggro-control decks are better at being aggro-control than control-decks. Surprise? Anyway, the fact that the deck has no real draw and a low landcount just means that it cannot efficiently accomplish enough in any given turn to really rule the board. It relies on Scepter and Scepter is unreliable. Ultimately, I think the approach it's playing with presently is a bit wrong. It could be built as an aggro/control-deck with Scepter as one of the tools to attack the opponent with or it could be built as a control-deck really trying to push the game to the lategame and winning it there with its superior tools. It's really between the two now.

frogboy

08-04-2007, 05:46 PM

Scepter Chant was a metagame deck, and a bad one imho.

This is neither here nor there, but the deck kicked the shit out of aggro and had a reasonable control matchup. It was really good at the beginning of the 2005 PTQ season.

Citrus-God

08-05-2007, 06:51 AM

This is neither here nor there, but the deck kicked the shit out of aggro and had a reasonable control matchup. It was really good at the beginning of the 2005 PTQ season.

It loses to skilled Tog players on a regular basis at that time. Of course, Tog loses to Affinity and Vial Goblins.

TheAardvark

08-05-2007, 01:30 PM

It loses to skilled Tog players on a regular basis at that time. Of course, Tog loses to Affinity and Vial Goblins.

Vial was banned a month before the PTQ season started, so "Vial Goblins" didn't exist anymore. And 'Tog players were able to start beating Affinity more often by Overgrown Tomb allowing them to easily splash green for Pernicious Deed. Oh, and I saw 'Tog outrace Affinity a few times due to dredging like crazy.

Just saying.

zulander

08-05-2007, 07:44 PM

Who cares about whether it's good or bad in extended. This is a legacy forum.

Citrus-God

08-05-2007, 09:51 PM

Vial was banned a month before the PTQ season started, so "Vial Goblins" didn't exist anymore. And 'Tog players were able to start beating Affinity more often by Overgrown Tomb allowing them to easily splash green for Pernicious Deed. Oh, and I saw 'Tog outrace Affinity a few times due to dredging like crazy.

Just saying.

I was talking about the 2005 PTQ when Vial Goblins just came to the scene and Red Deck Wins looked bad.

@zulander: Most decks were influenced by history within the Legacy metagame. Threshold was influenced by Turbo Xerox and Super Gro, Affinity and Vial Goblins were influenced by Affinity and Vial Goblins, and many other decks have just been influenced by the design of other decks. I know in Type 1, Keeper had a heavy influence on the way Control Slaver played.

FakeSpam

08-05-2007, 10:15 PM

@zulander: Most decks were influenced by history within the Legacy metagame. Threshold was influenced by Turbo Xerox and Super Gro, Affinity and Vial Goblins were influenced by Affinity and Vial Goblins, and many other decks have just been influenced by the design of other decks. I know in Type 1, Keeper had a heavy influence on the way Control Slaver played.

I've been ripping off existing archetypes since 1999. Legacy is like Japan. We don't make stuff, we just make stuff better.

AnwarA101

08-05-2007, 11:49 PM

By the way, for all of you that absolutely hate me, I don't mind you e-mailing Pete or anyone at SCG to complain. I would also request you e-mail me (works better than PM) at kbinswanger@gmail.com or AIM: Anusien with specific complaints or suggestions. I've talked on AIM to a few people here, and I think it's helped focus me. I think we will find this is more constructive than randomly bashing me on the forums. After all, I want to write articles that everyone likes.

What you call "hatred" is really just criticism. People criticize your articles because they rarely make any sense and this one is no exception.

When people point out to you Krosan Grip is devastating against your deck you either seem mystified that people play Krosan Grip or pretend that it isn't really bad for you. It defies belief that you either are not aware that people play this card in Legacy or how damaging it can be to lose a Scepter and another card to a Krosan Grip.

There are numerous parts of your article that don't really make sense but here are a few that jump out at me.

The decks that are successful now owe their strengths in large part to their explosiveness. Look at the ridiculous things Goblins or TES can do based on the opening hand, and then compare that to what Landstill can do. The deck's best plays merely involve playing Standstill on turn 2. That play may win you the game, but it's not dominating in the same way as Aether Vial. In discussions, I called this the Just Win factor; the more you can do to make your deck just able to rip a perfect seven and blow through your opponent, the better.

You say that winning now is very important, but yet you suggest a deck that has as one of its path to victory to Scepter-Chant lock your opponent and force a concession. If this concession doesn't come or even worse, that you've lost game 1 and you can't actually finish game 2 because you don't win now. Goblins and TES can actually win the game very quickly. They don't require their opponents to cooperate with them.

Ill-Gotten Gains combo and TES you can treat somewhat similarly; they just differ on how much they rely on Tendrils versus Empty the Warrens. The one thing I would note is how much worse Orim's Chant is against IGGy than against TES. If you have a Chant in hand against Iggy you probably want to cast it in response to a mana source rather than an Ill-Gotten Gains. If you cast Chant in response to Ill-Gotten Gains, it's very easy for them to take a few points of mana burn and win on the next turn. The only exception would be if you have Meddling Mage or can set up Isochron Scepter recursion.

Have you ever actually played against Iggy Pop? You say that casting Chant in response to Ill-Gotten Gains would be incorrect because your opponent could go off the next turn after taking mana burn. What you fail to realize is that next turn when your Ill-Gotten Gains opponent tries to go off again with Ill-Gotten Gains that you can just return the Chant you casted last turn and Chant them again preventing them from winning. They would need to have a Leyline of the Void in play to prevent you from recurring the Chant. If this were the case you probably lose if you don't have Force of Will as you will get Mind-twisted and lose in the next turn or so.

My suggestion is that you really spend some time to learn more about Legacy. You can't just give us an Extended deck with Force of Will and dual lands and expect it to work out in Legacy. There are many people who have built successful decks in Legacy and that is because they spent the time to learn and understand this format. To write intelligently about Legacy requires playing Legacy in tournaments and with real people who can offer real advice on whether a deck is competitive or not. Without that experience of actually playing Legacy you won't be able to tell the good from the bad. Until then get someone else to write the column who has a better grasp of Legacy.