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URABAHN
08-02-2007, 07:58 PM
Sorta. I actually don't like it when girls play magic. Every Pre-Release, I get matched up against a random fatty/goth chick round 1, and I just roll her. It's a waste of my time to play against them. Fortunately, girls tend to stay away from Legacy, because they'd rather buy clothes than duals. Angel of Despair is not fat, at least, and she gave me foil Mental Notes, but when I hear that she went undefeated in the swiss with an outdated list, I roll my eyes. It makes me wonder how many guys went easy on her or simply punted the match on purpose because she has a vagina and if they let her win they might get to pound it.

I think women in Magic (if kept civil) could be an excellent discussion! I'm not going to berate Caboose for being incredibly sexist (he is entitled to his opinion), but I wonder if men let women win at Magic?

Men, have you ever let a girl win at Magic?

Women, how seriously do you take Magic? How competitive do you think you are?

SpatulaOfTheAges
08-02-2007, 08:12 PM
I think it's kind of a self-feeding cycle. Women perceive Magic as a boy's club, and the males who play tend to look down on the girls who do play as upstarts.

My fiance, for instance, is easily smart enough to do well at the game, but she's very put off by the image that surrounds the game, so she's never interested in getting started.

I'd guess, as in any situation of a discriminatory old guard, this mentality will be challenged and eroded over time. It just hasn't happened yet.

Machinus
08-02-2007, 08:32 PM
Magic is designed, marketed, and illustrated for teen boys. There's not really much need to appeal to anything else.

jazzykat
08-02-2007, 08:34 PM
I kill everyone equally dead.

Citrus-God
08-02-2007, 09:00 PM
I remember people saying Poker is a man's game. I see women doing well everywhere now, like Shannon Elizabeth, Jen Harmen, Jennifer Tilly, Kristy Gazes, Clonnie Gowen, and so many others.

C.P.
08-02-2007, 09:06 PM
Be it male or female, I play them equally serious. I do admit, though, that average male players are usually better than female ones.

Whit3 Ghost
08-02-2007, 09:26 PM
My fiance
didn't know you were engaged, congrats.

anyway, I would never object to decent looking girls playing magic.

Mijorre
08-03-2007, 03:06 AM
I am terrified of playing our local female on tourneys. She's brilliantly dangerous in sealed.
I did beat her at the release of 10th, but that was sheer luck.
Also: she slowrolls her cards. >_<.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
08-03-2007, 04:36 AM
This thread has very little potential for the forces of good.

Women are normally trained, socially, to be far less competitive (overtly) than men. This is ingrained from childhood in the different sports and games that girls and boys play. Doubly so when playing against boys.

Hence, when they hit the level of competitve Magic, most women aren't going to have the social training to really go after it in a serious, cut-throat manner. To compound this problem, there's a host of social issues; being the only one of anything in a group is awkward and can make you feel unwelcome, many guys, particularly Magic-players, are either directly chauvenistic like Caboose or paternalistic and condescendingly hand-holding, like in this thread title (What are we hearing it for? I've met one pro player who was a girl in my life. Women haven't done anything in Magic; that's the entire point). We all pick up the skills we use playing Magic largely from outside sources, but very few pros or veterans are going to teach a female the same way they would a male; they tend to be either dismissive or overly nice. As such, the learning process for a woman trying to become competitive is retarded and loaded with undue and usually unwelcome attention (not always sexual, but just constantly drawing stares and comments can be quite uncomfortable enough).

outsideangel
08-03-2007, 04:40 AM
It's not that girls can't be good at Magic. It's just that I have yet to run into one that has been.

When you play against someone, you make many assumptions during the game. For example, if someone opens with a Flooded Strand, and at the end of your turn fetches a Tropical Island to play a Brainstorm, and then during their turn plays a Volcanic Island and a Tarmogoyf, one can reasonably assume that they are playing Ugr Threshold, because every other time someone has played those cards against you, they have been playing Ugr Threshold.

Similarly, when I sit down across from a girl and shuffle up, I draw on past experiences in which every girl I've played against has not been playing at a competative level, and assume that my opponent is going to play as such. If, over the course of the match, she disproves those assumptions, then so be it.

It's hardly limited to gender, however. I consider anything and everything, from age to dress to body language, when "sizing up" an opponent.

Being able to guess what skill level your opponent is playing at is critical to making certain plays, such as baiting out counters or removal, and disregarding any information from past experience because it's not politically correct to think a certain way is foolishness.

Why aren't girls good at Magic? Probably because so few of them play, and even fewer invest the time and expense needed to play competatively. As Machinus noted, the game is marketed towards males. Also, the social perception of card games in general tends to paint them as a male activity, but even more specifically, the idea of a trading card game is seen as "nerdy" or "geeky" which tends to drive away teenage girls.

I'm sure there are a number of equally valid reasons that all contribute to fact that generally speaking, I can reasonably expect a female opponent to be less adept at the game than a male opponent. But whether or not I understand the contributing factors, I would be an idiot to disregard the information.

Also, it is a widely known fact that individuals of the female gender are not present on the internets.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
08-03-2007, 05:10 AM
It's hardly limited to gender, however. I consider anything and everything, from age to dress to body language, when "sizing up" an opponent.

Being able to guess what skill level your opponent is playing at is critical to making certain plays, such as baiting out counters or removal, and disregarding any information from past experience because it's not politically correct to think a certain way is foolishness.

The reason that stereotypes against people based on superficial traits are discouraged, aside from the unfairness to the individual being so stereotyped, has more to do with the dangers of guessing on little information. Essentially, such assumptions can easily be wrong, and bad information can do much more harm than no information. Better to admit to knowing nothing and proceeding with the intent of finding out than to assume something as true and let that wreck your strategy. This isn't only true of people, either. Example:

At PT Honolulu, while sitting diagonally across from Eric Darland and next to the absolute worst-smelling human being I've ever seen shuffle a deck, I was playing against some angry Swedish guy (both of us already out of contention for day two, incidentally, but damn if he didn't act like a bigger jerk than anyone else I had played when actual money was on the line). He's playing some sort of Beach House variant or the other, and I'm playing some scrubby list of Greater Good. The important thing to remember is that I have lots of creatures, including mana critters and the unkillable Grave-Shell Scarab.

I play a Loxodon Warhammer and equip it to a Wood Elves. My opponent, obviously already frustrated at being knocked out of probably his first Pro Tour, is visibly pissed off that he's at a Constructed Pro Tour, playing against some scrub with Loxodon Warhammers in an environment with Jittes. So, he plays a Putrefy, and what does he target? Of course, the Wood Elves. Wood Elves is a played card, after all, and he knows that Loxodon Warhammer is terrible. So the critter dies, and then a Sakura-Tribe Elder comes along, and he draws another Putrefy... and again he kills the 1/1 dork. Because STE is a good card, and he knows that Loxodon Warhammer is terrible.

Then I draw a Vitu-Ghazi, and I make a dude at the end of one of his turns, and I equip it and swing- and he Putrefys the 1/1.

He untaps, and takes another turn. He ends up trading a couple of creatures with 4/1 Spirit Linking Saporling tokens while the life-gap between us widens. And then he draws the fourth Putrefy and finally decides to kill the Loxodon Warhammer. Of course, by this point, I draw another Warhammer and kill him with it.

Why didn't my opponent kill the Warhammer earlier and give himself a much better chance of winning, instead of worrying about 1/1 dorks? Because the information was locked in. Loxodon Warhammer is a terrible card; and because he "knew" this beforehand, he was unwilling to reconsider the fact in light of the actual game state or the actual events transpiring in the game. He was operating based on a hasty assumption, because of his prior experiences, both direct and indirect, which told him that Loxodon Warhammer wasn't a card he should have worried about.

Now, the dangerous temptation would be to try to get an edge by making assumptions based on certain characteristics, with the addendum that you'd be willing, unlike my opponent, to change that perception on the fly. But then the usefulness of the assumption is questionable to begin with. And human beings really aren't set up to think that way anyway. Once we have an idea re-inforced a number of times and accept this, it's hard to break away from it and change that belief on a moment's notice. Rare as it's been to date to find a truly dangerous female Magic player, when it happens, if you're operating under the assumption that she's a scrub, you're going to be in a much worse position. On the other hand, what do you really lose by not making such assumptions beforehand? Your opponent might turn out to be awful when you weren't aware of that? Is that really such a disadvantage?

I've met, I think, two tournament-competent female Magic players, myself, which is certainly an alarmingly small percentage. I've never intentionally lost to a girl because she was a girl, although when I'm teaching someone Magic I'll often intentionally lose to demonstrate a scenario, if that counts.

Rastadon
08-03-2007, 10:55 AM
Magic is not a game that women respect. You tell someone you play magic, they either think "bunnies coming out of hats" or "man, I knew these gamer people existed, but I thought they were just myth! God they smell bad!" So it's pretty rare to find a girl who's accepting of magic/plays magic, so geek guys will unnaturally go out of their way to impress them. If that means losing a game, then sure.

Also, think of your average magic player. Do you see them getting exorbitant quantities of ass anytime soon? I think that geeks typically are lonely, which explains why guys flock to girls who play mtg so hella hardcore.

And for the record, I am equating magic the gathering to being a geek.

I'd like to hear from the opposite gender on this issue. If we promise not to flay her, I want to hear what Angel of Despair has to say.

Peter_Rotten
08-03-2007, 11:07 AM
Sexist asshattery deleted.

Caboose, you are simply being offensive. Cut it out or we will have to issue warnings.

tivadar
08-03-2007, 11:14 AM
Well, I don't care who my opponent is, I'll beat them soundly whether male or female. I've had enough run-ins with AoD that she can testify to this (well, at least that I wasn't giving her anything in the matchups, can't say I beat her soundly every time we play).

But people are right, this is a boy's club. A smelly boy's club at that, which makes it less appealing to women. Come to think of it, I can't say I've ever seen a group of Magic players playing anywhere besides in a cramped basement. Is there some fundamental reason (besides wind) we don't play outside?

That being said, they have a "Women of sci-fi" calendar. Can we get a "Women of Magic" calendar? AoD and Pixe are two obvious nominees for spots on this.

The continually un-PC,
Tivadar

zulander
08-03-2007, 11:16 AM
Have I ever lost to a girl intentionally? Nope. And I don't plan on it. Especially if it's a tournament.

Slay
08-03-2007, 11:27 AM
Women don't generally play Magic with the same goal that men play Magic - they don't play specifically to win. Men are extremely competitive just for the sake of being competitive(as an example, see any internet argument ever), and that's genetically coded into us and has been for a long time. Women, on the other hand, don't really care just about winning, they care about other factors, which oftentimes leads to play mistakes and game losses. That's(imho) mostly why they do bad in Magic. There are exceptions to this, like always, but this is what I've seen. Children are similar in that regard, I play against them the same way I play against women, though that's not a statement on women's relative levels of intelligence, just their motive.
-Slay

Pinder
08-03-2007, 11:47 AM
I don't think I've ever lost to anyone intentionally at a tournament before, male or female. Sometimes during kitchen table games I'll let someone win if I'm teaching them (nothing is a bigger barrier to magic than starting, and losing all the time), but again I don't really make that call based on gender. Oftentimes it will be to show them how a more optimal play would have won the game for them, or any situation where me losing would cause the player across the table to learn something.

I personally love it when I see women across the table from me at prereleases and such, but I will admit that I usually start with the preconception that I'm a better player than they are (not on purpose though, mind you. It's just there), and probably that she (and in no way me, but she, the girl) is someone's girlfriend. I'd love to be proven wrong, but so far I haven't yet.

And it is a fact that the majority of the Magic playing community seems to have a severe aversion to showering regularly, and that's just a stereotype that the rest of us have to live with. If you look at any sort of competitive upper level tournaments, you can tell that the people there look absolutely normal (with a few possible exceptions), but women don't generally go youtubing for videos of a PT to see what magic players look like. They see the sort of chubby kids playing in the lunchroom at school, saying things like 'I'll Betrayal of the Flesh your Thorn Elemental', right before snickering because girls have boobies. Unfortunate, but true.

sammiel
08-03-2007, 11:50 AM
Men are extremely competitive just for the sake of being competitive(as an example, see any internet argument ever)

I DISAGREE!

xXxBretWeedxXx
08-03-2007, 11:52 AM
I find it funny that he would complain about the way girls look at Magic tourneys he's at. The majority of dudes I've ever seen playing Magic are generally lacking in the looks department themselves.

That is also the more likely the reason that girls are scarce at such events. You could take the most trite, boring or misogynistic thing in the world and women would be into it if the dudes were hot. I'm sure competitive desire plays a factor in women playing, but if more dudes looked good they'd be cheerleaders at least.

umbowta
08-03-2007, 12:24 PM
Yes, of course I've let my wife win at MtG. I'm teaching her the game and want to make sure she's having enough fun to keep going with it. I've built the decks lopsided in her favor and I intentionally make "play mistakes" so that she has an oppotunity to recognize them while learning to take advantage of them.

Is this fuzzy bunny approach gender related? Absolutely. If I were teaching any of my buddies to play the game, I'd hand them a tier 1 deck and still beat the fuck out of them until they quit. Then I'd make fun of them.

hi-val
08-03-2007, 12:46 PM
I know some VERY competitive women who play softball and basketball. It's hard coming up with any sane reasons why women are predisposed to not compete or go for different goals. Women are, in some ways, far fiercer competitors than men.

I think the reason we don't see more women in magic isn't because they're bad at it, it's because it's marketed as a man's game. You have some incredibly sexist art at times (compare Rahda to Lovisa). The girls that I know that play Magic play because their boyfriends or exes played and introduced them to it.

When boys are getting into magic at age 12, girls are being marketed Bratz dolls. It's just the market determining at a very young age that boys play with the pokemans and girls play with the doll clothes.

SpatulaOfTheAges
08-03-2007, 12:48 PM
... but I will admit that I usually start with the preconception that I'm a better player than they are (not on purpose though, mind you. It's just there), and probably someone's girlfriend. I'd love to be proven wrong, but so far I haven't yet.

You begin with the preconception that you're someone's girlfriend?

And thanks, whitey.

Blair Phoenix
08-03-2007, 12:59 PM
I know some VERY competitive women who play softball and basketball. It's hard coming up with any sane reasons why women are predisposed to not compete or go for different goals. Women are, in some ways, far fiercer competitors than men.

I think the reason we don't see more women in magic isn't because they're bad at it, it's because it's marketed as a man's game. You have some incredibly sexist art at times (compare Rahda to Lovisa). The girls that I know that play Magic play because their boyfriends or exes played and introduced them to it.

When boys are getting into magic at age 12, girls are being marketed Bratz dolls. It's just the market determining at a very young age that boys play with the pokemans and girls play with the doll clothes.

I know a lot more girls that play Pokemon now than guys. But we get the idea

zulander
08-03-2007, 01:13 PM
Yes, of course I've let my wife win at MtG. I'm teaching her the game and want to make sure she's having enough fun to keep going with it. I've built the decks lopsided in her favor and I intentionally make "play mistakes" so that she has an oppotunity to recognize them while learning to take advantage of them.

Is this fuzzy bunny approach gender related? Absolutely. If I were teaching any of my buddies to play the game, I'd hand them a tier 1 deck and still beat the fuck out of them until they quit. Then I'd make fun of them.
I don't know if it's gender related as opposed to not getting any from them related. I'd lost to my wife(if I had one mind you) at everything if beating her meant not getting laid.

Pinder
08-03-2007, 01:56 PM
... but I will admit that I usually start with the preconception that I'm a better player than they are (not on purpose though, mind you. It's just there), and probably someone's girlfriend. I'd love to be proven wrong, but so far I haven't yet.You begin with the preconception that you're someone's girlfriend?


ROFL. I meant to say that they were someone's girlfriend. I forgot that I was still the subject of that sentence after the parentheses. My bad.

Tacosnape
08-03-2007, 02:19 PM
First off, women playing magic can usually be divided into one of two categories:

1. Women who play only because their boyfriend/fiancee/husband is playing and want something to do to be amused.

2. Women who, regardless of skill level, are real magic players. Often but not always, they grew up as tomboys, were raised to be competitive, and are often considered "One of the guys."

This is meant as no slight towards women. It's the simple truth. While it might sound stereotypical, stereotypes usually exist for a reason.

There are, of course, exceptions. One of my teammates is a woman, is a pretty serious magic player, and wasn't raised in a competitive or tomboyish environment at all. She is always looking to improve her skills and constantly frets over what the right play in a situation is. She's started getting a fair amount of top 4's at our local tournaments.

The majority of women players fall into category 1. I hate women like this. They generally aren't enjoyable to play against or be around because deep down they're usually miserable in a magic setting. There are exceptions to the rule, but they are precisely that: exceptions. When playing women in category 1, I play as brutally ruthless as humanly possible. I want these women to lose and get out of the game.

A category 2 woman, however, actually likes the game. If you hear a woman asking questions about magic, regardless of the question, she's a category 2. Even if she's only there with her boyfriend, she's genuinely interested in the game at this point. I will still play relentlessly against a category 2 (I play relentlessly against -everyone-), so that they appreciate the win more when they get it, and that they learn from their mistakes. I will go out of the way to help and offer constructive criticism if I percieve they're willing to accept it. In a sense, I treat them like I would treat any other magic player. With courtesy, respect, with a desire to watch them grow and flourish in the game, but as an opponent that must be beaten.

Besides, I love to watch my opponents, male or female, gloat whenever they get a win against me. If someone feels exulted that they beat you, it's an unintentional sign of respect at your level of play.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
08-03-2007, 02:30 PM
Yes, of course I've let my wife win at MtG. I'm teaching her the game and want to make sure she's having enough fun to keep going with it. I've built the decks lopsided in her favor and I intentionally make "play mistakes" so that she has an oppotunity to recognize them while learning to take advantage of them.

Is this fuzzy bunny approach gender related? Absolutely. If I were teaching any of my buddies to play the game, I'd hand them a tier 1 deck and still beat the fuck out of them until they quit. Then I'd make fun of them.

Is this for general gender reasons, or because you are relying upon said female for action?


I know some VERY competitive women who play softball and basketball. It's hard coming up with any sane reasons why women are predisposed to not compete or go for different goals. Women are, in some ways, far fiercer competitors than men.

Bullshit. Anytime I'm in a mixed group playing any game or sport, there's always some girl who complains that the guys (usually) are taking it way too seriously. Now, while there's some hormonal differences at play here, I think most of the blame goes to social conditioning. But women don't compete in any game as fiercely (on average) as men, it's simply fact.


I think the reason we don't see more women in magic isn't because they're bad at it, it's because it's marketed as a man's game. You have some incredibly sexist art at times (compare Rahda to Lovisa).

I had to look up both pieces again to make sure you weren't thinking of Akroma2 or something. Neither of those pieces seem sexist to me, unless by sexist you mean, "Female figures in art who are more attractive than average", which is true of pretty much any figures in art because artists don't like drawing mundane and everyday-ugly people (now, outrageously ugly people, on the other hand...)

Machinus
08-03-2007, 02:35 PM
When boys are getting into magic at age 12, girls are being marketed Bratz dolls. It's just the market determining at a very young age that boys play with the pokemans and girls play with the doll clothes.

Companies didn't just make that up. They are selling what people want. Boys want to act out aggresive behaviour and girls want to do something else.

Caboose
08-03-2007, 02:54 PM
Sexist asshattery deleted.

Caboose, you are simply being offensive. Cut it out or we will have to issue warnings.

Wow. When I'm a jerk, the mods edit what I say. How can I win?

Also, IBA is right about the subject, as he is right about every subject. It's best to just close threads after IBA makes a post, as it is always correct.

Finn
08-03-2007, 03:27 PM
Bullshit. Anytime I'm in a mixed group playing any game or sport, there's always some girl who complains that the guys (usually) are taking it way too seriously. Now, while there's some hormonal differences at play here, I think most of the blame goes to social conditioning. But women don't compete in any game as fiercely (on average) as men, it's simply fact.Naw, dude. Spelling bees, and truly nerdy crap like geography competitions, etc, girls are on atleast equal footing with boys. It's like that in office politics, big business, etc as well.

Magic isn't just competitve. It's also fantasy, and very logical and precision-oriented. Girls aren't into fantasy stuff like guys. And they are not wired for logical thinking like guys.

I teach logic to extraordinary kids and teens for a living. The higher up you go, the higher the percentage of males. They aren't dumb, they are just seeing the world differently on average. Don't get me wrong, the social conditioning plays a role, but it is not the entire story - not by a long shot.

Peter_Rotten
08-03-2007, 03:46 PM
I teach logic to extraordinary kids and teens for a living. The higher up you go, the higher the percentage of males.

And vice versa. Any of the Pre-AP English classes I teach have a population breakdown of roughly 75% female/25% male.

Nihil Credo
08-03-2007, 04:59 PM
They see the sort of chubby kids playing in the lunchroom at school, saying things like 'I'll Betrayal of the Flesh your Thorn Elemental', right before snickering because girls have boobies. Unfortunate, but true.Your current avatar makes this quote funnier.

hi-val
08-03-2007, 06:33 PM
Bullshit. Anytime I'm in a mixed group playing any game or sport, there's always some girl who complains that the guys (usually) are taking it way too seriously. Now, while there's some hormonal differences at play here, I think most of the blame goes to social conditioning. But women don't compete in any game as fiercely (on average) as men, it's simply fact.


Cite please on it being "simply fact"?

While keeping in mind that the plural of "anecdote" is not "data", I have some countering evidence I found recently. My cousin is a hardcore softball player. My aunt (and my cousin's mom), who works in corporate America, was talking about the problem of women not knowing how to compete and leave it on the playing field. She brought up the example of 1st and 2nd string quarterbacks often being best friends. They are directly competing for the same position, but are roommates, buddies and teammates. She noted after years of competing with other women and watching/participating in women's sports that women will NEVER be friends if they have to compete. You won't see women who are basketball point guards vying for starting positions being buddies after the game. Again, all of this is anecdotal and I can't support it with research. It also doesn't address women in mixed company. However, it does tend to support the idea that women actually compete fiercely with each other.

And Rahda = chainmail bikini babes that I thought fantasy art got over 20 years ago and Lovisa = certified badass. I would want a daughter of mine to respect the latter over the former.

Bane of the Living
08-03-2007, 06:58 PM
People that act the way you do drive girls away from these hobbies. Its most likely your fault a cute girl isnt sticking around in your store and getting better at the game.

When Jessi and I started dating she knew some very basic rules to the game and I pretty much brought her up to speed and ready for the Legacy format within 4-6 months. In that time we picked up some precons then ventured into the land of Standard, where the average game lasts a few more turns and decks are more forgiving. I never tossed games to her and would point out all her playmistakes no matter how much she hated it. It made her a better player and today she's kicked several veteran asses right here on The Source.

I definitely dont like how your implying she'd ever lend out sexual favors for a bend in a magical gathering game. Its way more than rude. I have no idea how Ill keep myself from pounding your little Caboose face if I ever see you in real life again.

Your probably gay anyways so I can see why you'd want to shake a stick at all the girls you talk to.

Nihil Credo
08-03-2007, 07:00 PM
And Rahda = chainmail bikini babes that I thought fantasy art got over 20 years ago and Lovisa = certified badass. I would want a daughter of mine to respect the latter over the former.

Trying to drive the thread away from incredibly boring armchair psychology:

Lovisa is sitting lazily on a throne, resting her axe on its arms because she's too much of a fucking weakling to hold it like a proper barbarian lord (lady). Radha is towering bloodstained over the viewer and holding a fucking severed head. I think there's no question who is the most badass of the two women here - but hey, maybe Lovisa can get tips on how to impress people from the same hairdresser who combed her perfect mane.

C.P.
08-03-2007, 07:51 PM
Trying to drive the thread away from incredibly boring armchair psychology:

Lovisa is sitting lazily on a throne, resting her axe on its arms because she's too much of a fucking weakling to hold it like a proper barbarian lord (lady). Radha is towering bloodstained over the viewer and holding a fucking severed head. I think there's no question who is the most badass of the two women here - but hey, maybe Lovisa can get tips on how to impress people from the same hairdresser who combed her perfect mane.

Kris Mage is the Hottest and awesomest Magic Girl Evah. Not to mention that I own 150 copies of normal ones and 1 foil one. Matthew D. Wilson girls FTW.

Magik
08-03-2007, 09:13 PM
I've gotten my girlfriend of about four years into the game of Magical cards, and she's developed into a fairly competent and competitive player. If, when I was still teaching her the game, I saw that she was getting disinterested in losing, I may have thrown a game or two so that she would become confident in her playing abilities and so she would see that she was improving at the game. While neither of us are great, we regularly top 4'd[including, at times, both of us going 1 & 2] in our local tournament when it was still active. At first, she was quite dismissive to playing in the tournament because of the way that people would act towards her. And, in many cases, she was correct in thinking that they would hit on her or snicker about how they wouldn't "take it easy" on her. Then, she would utterly trounce the person and end up taking first place.

So no, I can't say that I treat female players of the Magical cards any different than males, although many people I've seen do just that; I figure that if someone is going to put time/effort/money into a M:TG tournament, then I should respect him/her as I like to be respected. Also, saying that women are less competitive than men is ludicrous. I've seen women basketball/softball/volleyball/soccer players trash-talk more than I could ever even begin to think of doing[either in soccer or the Magical cards]. Even Lana[my girlfriend] trash-talked more in M:TG tourneys than I did.

Citrus-God
08-03-2007, 10:37 PM
First off, women playing magic can usually be divided into one of two categories:

1. Women who play only because their boyfriend/fiancee/husband is playing and want something to do to be amused.

Some get really into it by default, and the fact that's a way to get closer to their "life partner." I met a girl who's bf is like a semi-professional Poker player, and she got really into it. She's probably the person who got me into reading shit by Sklansky.


2. Women who, regardless of skill level, are real magic players. Often but not always, they grew up as tomboys, were raised to be competitive, and are often considered "One of the guys."


I hardly see them. I see women playing Poker more, but tha's because it's trendy and somewhat socially acceptable for women to play games like that.


This is meant as no slight towards women. It's the simple truth. While it might sound stereotypical, stereotypes usually exist for a reason.


I see nothing wrong with stereotypes as long as people interpret these stereotypes while keeping their mind open. Sadly, I see very little of this nowadays.


There are, of course, exceptions. One of my teammates is a woman, is a pretty serious magic player, and wasn't raised in a competitive or tomboyish environment at all. She is always looking to improve her skills and constantly frets over what the right play in a situation is. She's started getting a fair amount of top 4's at our local tournaments.

Magic is a situation based game. It's always nice to learn to make nothing but the right decision, as that gives youa perspective as who you are.


The majority of women players fall into category 1. I hate women like this. They generally aren't enjoyable to play against or be around because deep down they're usually miserable in a magic setting. There are exceptions to the rule, but they are precisely that: exceptions. When playing women in category 1, I play as brutally ruthless as humanly possible. I want these women to lose and get out of the game.

Not when they see all the hot closet geeks around. jk, but I usually see this happen.


A category 2 woman, however, actually likes the game. If you hear a woman asking questions about magic, regardless of the question, she's a category 2. Even if she's only there with her boyfriend, she's genuinely interested in the game at this point. I will still play relentlessly against a category 2 (I play relentlessly against -everyone-), so that they appreciate the win more when they get it, and that they learn from their mistakes. I will go out of the way to help and offer constructive criticism if I percieve they're willing to accept it. In a sense, I treat them like I would treat any other magic player. With courtesy, respect, with a desire to watch them grow and flourish in the game, but as an opponent that must be beaten.

I feel happy when I see children and inexperienced players beat me too. It's always nice to see people learning going towards the next level. I found it ironic that I understand Drain mirrors so well in Type 1 now.


Besides, I love to watch my opponents, male or female, gloat whenever they get a win against me. If someone feels exulted that they beat you, it's an unintentional sign of respect at your level of play.

Same. I feel that Tacosnape wins this thread.

mikekelley
08-04-2007, 12:19 AM
I certainly wouldn't want to be a girl in a room full of (mostly) fat ugly guys who haven't showered in a week.

So I can't blame them. My ex girlfriend used to always laugh at me when she'd see me playing with some of the kids who played at a casual night at my school. What the hell was I doing in there? she'd always ask.

Granted, there are some normal, pretty hygenic people who enjoy the game. But there are enough freaks to freak out the girls who would play. The stereotypes are true, and it does scare a lot of girls away, I think.

Caboose
08-04-2007, 02:49 AM
LOL @ Peter Rotten. He is old.

Mijorre
08-04-2007, 05:21 AM
Kris Mage is the Hottest and awesomest Magic Girl Evah. Not to mention that I own 150 copies of normal ones and 1 foil one. Matthew D. Wilson girls FTW.

Female Elvish Ranger (alliances, not that semi-greek portal crap) art ftw!

<The easy link (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?e=ai&l=en&n=68)>

Can anyone get more sexist/bikini-babe than this? >:3

As for female players, most of the ones I know started disliking it after we broke up. :cry: I wonder why...

TheInfamousBearAssassin
08-04-2007, 09:52 AM
Cite please on it being "simply fact"?

Can you name me a co-ed sport or game where women dominate or even share equally in the top positions?


And Rahda = chainmail bikini babes that I thought fantasy art got over 20 years ago and Lovisa = certified badass. I would want a daughter of mine to respect the latter over the former.

Except Radha's wearing leather pants haltertop, neither chain mail nor bikini. She is also, as has been pointed out, busily in the middle of killing things and splattered in said things' blood, making her infini. more badass.

Jander78
08-04-2007, 10:45 AM
I play on a co-ed soccer team and most of the girls that play are just as competative as the guys. The better teams in the league are the ones comprised of the stronger girl players, why....because men usually don't respect them and they end up walking right by.

The same is true for magic (and any opponent, not just girls). Whenever you underestimate an opponent, you are giving them the advantage. You instinctively lower your gaurd (playskill, tightness, concentration, etc.) giving them the opportunity to take advantage of the situation (whether they do or not is the deciding factor). I'm not saying this is what allows girls to win, just that guys with this mindset will give them an opportunity. I've been beat plenty of times by girls that knew quite well what they were doing in this game.

Also, saying girls are the weaker sex when it comes to a strategy game is assinine. The average girl may not be as into it as most guys, but you should still give your opponent the benefit of the doubt no matter what their gender/age/race.

Now....all that being said, I've tried to get most of my girlfriend(s) into the game, but they usually just don't have interest. Plus, I'm not sure if I'd want my girlfriend(s) too into it as I'd have to deal with them at tournaments where I consider that my "away" time.

SillyMetalGAT
08-04-2007, 12:57 PM
Can you name me a co-ed sport or game where women dominate or even share equally in the top positions?


Youll notice that in the military IBA, there are a LOT of women in the Marines.... And the test is no easy feat. Women can do just as much as men if they put initiative into it.

Jessie was pumped about this tournament and it showed. She did a shit load of testing with her list and she really knows how that deck ticks. I mean hell, its her pet-deck. Nate did help her a little bit with making it but for the most part she tuned it herself.

xsockmonkeyx
08-04-2007, 01:14 PM
Can you name me a co-ed sport or game where women dominate or even share equally in the top positions?


Free Diving, or whatever its called. Where you go down as far as you can underwater and then come back up. Women process oxygen more efficiently or something.

Eldariel
08-04-2007, 01:35 PM
Women can do just as much as men if they put initiative into it.

Ultimately, when talking solely about physical performance, this is untrue. Women can reach certain physical level, but if you look at the track and field sports, for example, the mens' world record always tops the womens' world record by a wide margin regardless of the actual sport. Also, due to the way society is presently built, on average women are less inclined to be competitive when it comes to games as evident by the number of female players in sports versus mens' numbers.

Pinder
08-04-2007, 02:13 PM
Can anyone get more sexist/bikini-babe than this? >:3


Um, I'm going to go with Earthbind (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=193) FTW? I seriously don't think there's a more sexist art for a card than that.

On the flipside, though, anyone care to give us their opinion on the coolest/most badass female card art out there? I know Rhada has already been mentioned, but I've always been really partial to the new Serra Angel art (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=129726).

Ironically, a female friend of mine was asking me about Magic just yesterday.She seemed really interested. At one point I tried to explain the stack to her, and I could tell it was going way over her head. Perhaps I was a bit too ambitious. Would have been a ton easier to explain things if I had had any actual cards on me, though. She still seems interested, though, so wish me luck.

MattH
08-04-2007, 04:45 PM
because artists don't like drawing mundane and everyday-ugly people
Odyssey block disagrees with you! Those sets had way too many illustrations of doughy white people.

Mijorre
08-04-2007, 06:21 PM
Um, I'm going to go with Earthbind (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=193) FTW? I seriously don't think there's a more sexist art for a card than that.


Earthbind is a little over the top. That's tentacle-rape-fairy. Not bikini-babe ;)

As for new players, mix 20 creatures <10 vanilla, 10 regular>, 15 spells, 3 enchantments, 2 artifacts and 20 lands into a deck.
And don't play them with solidarity.
Stack is once they've gotten round to buying their own deck.

emidln
08-04-2007, 07:50 PM
Earthbind is a little over the top. That's tentacle-rape-fairy. Not bikini-babe ;)

As for new players, mix 20 creatures <10 vanilla, 10 regular>, 15 spells, 3 enchantments, 2 artifacts and 20 lands into a deck.
And don't play them with solidarity.
Stack is once they've gotten round to buying their own deck.

I generally teach friends to play in different ways depending on who they are. Some of my friends in college were taught to play with SI because they liked gambling and the drawing four random cards appealed to them. I taught some to play with Stax and Landstill (letting them play Stax) because they liked carefully managing resources. I've taught others to play with elves, goblins, and slivers because they like the fantasy aspect. I taught my brother to play by beating him senseless until he started copying my decks. Different approaches for different people.

Samshire
08-04-2007, 08:42 PM
http://toughmagicopponent.ytmnd.com/

Pinder
08-04-2007, 09:03 PM
http://toughmagicopponent.ytmnd.com/

Okay, I thought that was funny.

Speaking of magic YTMNDs (and derailing of threads and such), I just wanted to say:

OOOOOOOOOOHHHHH, IT'S LIGHTNING HELIX!!!!!! OHH MY GOD, OH MY GOD!!!!!! (http://lightninghelix.ytmnd.com/)

frogboy
08-04-2007, 09:27 PM
I just play Magic.

Tha Gunslinga
08-04-2007, 10:37 PM
This thread makes me want to quit playing Magic. Seriously. I almost never get to play against women, and when I do, I play JUST THE FUCKING SAME as I always do. Everyone on my team would do the same, and if I caught anyone on ICBM giving someone crap for being a woman who plays magic, they would be off.

You people make me sick. This is the last time I'll be visiting these boards. I've come to expect bad behavior on TMD, but this is just pitiful. The Vintage community is very different from the Legacy community, both online and at tournaments, and I guess I should just stick with what I know.

Pinder
08-05-2007, 03:41 AM
Stupid

Shit

Yeah, you guys are doing a whole lot to dispel his opinions there, aren't you? For Christ's sake, guys.

I vote this thread = lockjobbered.

Citrus-God
08-05-2007, 03:50 AM
Yeah, you guys are doing a whole lot to dispel his opinions there, aren't you? For Christ's sake, guys.

I vote this thread = lockjobbered.

Who declares that Megan Fox is the new sexy babe... yes, fucktons better than Jessica Alba.

Mijorre
08-05-2007, 04:37 AM
Yeah, you guys are doing a whole lot to dispel his opinions there, aren't you? For Christ's sake, guys.

He said he was never going to visit the boards again, so the need for dispelling of opinions is none?

@AA: o_O I seriously need to read up on my celebs. Alba's the chick from Sin City, right?

Citrus-God
08-05-2007, 06:50 AM
@AA: o_O I seriously need to read up on my celebs. Alba's the chick from Sin City, right?

The pool dancer, Nancy... and hottie? Yup...

Pale Moon FTW
08-05-2007, 08:38 AM
o.O There're female MtG players in the states? Well whadya know.
Over here no girls/women play MtG.
I think the primary reason is that while guys think of the game as a hobbie or even sport, girls see it more as toys that are kind of redicolous to play with when you're over middle school.

mikekelley
08-05-2007, 09:18 AM
o.O There're female MtG players in the states? Well whadya know.
Over here no girls/women play MtG.
I think the primary reason is that while guys think of the game as a hobbie or even sport, girls see it more as toys that are kind of redicolous to play with when you're over middle school.

And they would be right...



edit: This thread just took a severe turn for the stupid on the last page. Nice work..."guys."

Citrus-God
08-05-2007, 10:32 AM
And they would be right...



edit: This thread just took a severe turn for the stupid on the last page. Nice work..."guys."

I'm sorry, this was a ridiculous discussion in the first place anyways. I dont really feel like questioning this, considering that the fact people are people. If we're going to talk about this, I say we open up a thread on gay people who play magic. Sadly enough, I'll say the same thing over and over again, people are people.

Pinder
08-05-2007, 08:43 PM
He said he was never going to visit the boards again, so the need for dispelling of opinions is none?


That was sort of my point. What started out as a decent and intellectual discussion has turned into a steaming pile of stupid.

And Alba > All Challengers.

Peter_Rotten
08-05-2007, 09:36 PM
So why don't people use the report post function more often?

Warnings and Bannings issued.

Thread locked.