[Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

[Ewokslayer]

Cephalid Breakfast is a fast combo deck that utilitzes a blue control/search shell to push through and find the combo. The deck is very similar in play style to Flash in that you are running a cheap two card combo that under most circumstances wins the game on the spot. Unfortunately you have to cast both cards and can only do that at sorcery speed.

The List
Search
4x Brainstorm
4x Portent
Tutor
4x Worldy Tutor
2x Eladamari's Call
Control
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
2x Cabal Therapy
Combo
4x Cephalid Illusionist
3x Nomads en-kor
1x Shaman en-kor
1x Dread Return
3x Narcomoeba
Kill
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Karmic Guide
1x Sky Hussar
Misc
4x Æther Vial
1x Stern Proctor
Mana
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
3x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
1x Island

How the deck wins.
The combo is pretty simple. Get an en-kor on the table with an Illusionist. Use the en-kor ability to target the illusionist. As you mill your Library 3 at a time, put an Narcomoeba that go into the library, into play.
Once you mill Karmic Guide, Sky Hussar, Kiki, and Dread Return you can flashback Dread Return, returing Karmic Guide into play which grabs kiki. Make a copy of Karmic Guide grabbing Sky Hussar which untaps Kiki. Kiki now makes a copy of Sky Hussar which untaps Kiki, repeat and attack.

Card Choices.
Search
Brainstorm and Portent provide the dig and card selection the deck requires. Brainstorm also serves the very important function of turning kill cards in hand into useful cards. Portent's ability to dig 5 cards deep for the missing combo piece or a land is just unparalleled.

Tutor
Finally Worldly Tutor can get some loving in a deck. Both the combo pieces are creatures so worldly tutor actually doesn't suck in the deck. Its drawback is actually kinda nice against black discard.

Eladamari's Call I am still on the fence with. Putting the card directly into your hand is powerful and Call combined with Worldly Tutor can put the combo into your hand from nowhere. However it costs 2 mana both in your secondary colors.

Control
Force and Therapy are pretty much both required in the deck. Force because the deck is base blue and Therapy because its flashback is essentially free and you do need a way to get kill cards stuck in your hand into your graveyard if you want to win.

Daze is strong in forcing your combo through and stall opponent hate, however it is not 100% necessary and could be dropped for any number of other cards.

Combo
The combo is fairly straight-forward. A fourth Nacromoeba might be necessary and the fourth en-kor should be a shaman to get around Pithing Needle and E-Plague on Soldiers.

Kill
There are two simple kills
The kiki-Sky Hussar kill as well as a kill utilizing Sutured ghoul, 2 Dreadnoughts, and Dragon's Breath.
The Ghoul kill requires one more slot in the Main Deck, gets around Pithing Needle, and does allow for hard casting of Dreadnought (with a Vial).

Misc
Aether Vial allows the combo to get around countermagic, fixes mana/color screw, allows for instant speed responses, and allows the combo to be "hard-cast" if necessary.
Stern Proctor is a tutorable means of bouncing annoying artifacts and enchantments.

Matchups
Umm, I don't test against decks, I goldfish.
From my tournament experience.
Deadguy and Goblins seem like they need improvement.
Threshold I don't think is too bad considering Vial and the speed of the deck.
Other combo is a joke
Affinity is a joke
Landstill isn't too bad for the same reasons as Threshold plus Landstill is slower and has less search to find its hate.

[Di]

I'd just note that the current maindeck has no way of dealing with a Meddling Mage on Dread Return or something like Withered Wretch or Yixlid Jailer. Now let's not kid ourselves here, this deck won't be winning very often through beatdown with an army of 1/1's, so I think you need to find a way of dealing with it. For the builds that run Lim-Dul's Vault it's less of a concern because they can easily tutor up Echoing Truth or something, but for the VA-style lists with the creature-based tutor approach I've found the best answer to be Venser, Shaper Savant. It's 4cc which I'll admit is a bit difficult and unappealing, but it's the cheapest creature you can get that will bounce any permanent. Hell, it acts as Remand too.

[Peter_Rotten]

..and the fourth en-kor should be a shaman to get around Pithing Needle and E-Plague on Soldiers.

I have missed why naming Soldiers with E-Plague would be better than naming Illusion (for Narco). Why is that?

edit: I think that I have answered my own question. The deck, I assume, can slow play and still put 3 critters into play to sac to Dread Return.

[Di]

Why would you name Illusion as opposed to Cephalid? If you name Illusion, they can easily play 2 en-kor + Cephalid and use Dread Return from there. If you name Cephalid, they're forced to get Stern Proctor.

[Ewokslayer]

I'd just note that the current maindeck has no way of dealing with a Meddling Mage on Dread Return or something like Withered Wretch or Yixlid Jailer. Now let's not kid ourselves here, this deck won't be winning very often through beatdown with an army of 1/1's, so I think you need to find a way of dealing with it. For the builds that run Lim-Dul's Vault it's less of a concern because they can easily tutor up Echoing Truth or something, but for the VA-style lists with the creature-based tutor approach I've found the best answer to be Venser, Shaper Savant. It's 4cc which I'll admit is a bit difficult and unappealing, but it's the cheapest creature you can get that will bounce any permanent. Hell, it acts as Remand too.

For a while I was running one bone shredder to tutor for to kill mage, but I decided it wasn't necessary. I did lose Rd1 game 1 to turn 3 wretch, though I did screw up to a hymn the turn before other wise it wouldn't have been relevant.
Venser does sound like a decent answer, but considering the search in the deck, a one of truth of chain of vapor wouldn't be awful either. In my sideboarded games I was always able to quickly find my Chain of Vapor and it was only a two of.


Why would you name Illusion as opposed to Cephalid? If you name Illusion, they can easily play 2 en-kor + Cephalid and use Dread Return from there. If you name Cephalid, they're forced to get Stern Proctor.
Actually Wizard is a very popular choice considering the boarded Bobs.

[Bovinious]

I'd just note that the current maindeck has no way of dealing with a Meddling Mage on Dread Return or something like Withered Wretch or Yixlid Jailer. Now let's not kid ourselves here, this deck won't be winning very often through beatdown with an army of 1/1's, so I think you need to find a way of dealing with it. For the builds that run Lim-Dul's Vault it's less of a concern because they can easily tutor up Echoing Truth or something, but for the VA-style lists with the creature-based tutor approach I've found the best answer to be Venser, Shaper Savant. It's 4cc which I'll admit is a bit difficult and unappealing, but it's the cheapest creature you can get that will bounce any permanent. Hell, it acts as Remand too.

Man-o'-war would also work too and is 1 mana cheaper, but this deck can always counter the Meddling Mage, or even win before it comes online if on the play. Withered Wretch and Yixlid Jailer arnt played anyways but could also be answer by Man-o'-war or counters if they arise, so I wouldnt say theres NO way of dealing with them.

[Ewokslayer]

Venser would do the job of Stern Proctor as well.

[Bovinious]

True, I suppose the versatility and space-saving would make the 4 CC acceptable.

[BreathWeapon]

I'd just note that the current maindeck has no way of dealing with a Meddling Mage on Dread Return or something like Withered Wretch or Yixlid Jailer. Now let's not kid ourselves here, this deck won't be winning very often through beatdown with an army of 1/1's, so I think you need to find a way of dealing with it. For the builds that run Lim-Dul's Vault it's less of a concern because they can easily tutor up Echoing Truth or something, but for the VA-style lists with the creature-based tutor approach I've found the best answer to be Venser, Shaper Savant. It's 4cc which I'll admit is a bit difficult and unappealing, but it's the cheapest creature you can get that will bounce any permanent. Hell, it acts as Remand too.

17 lands and a 4cc bounce spell really isn't going to fly. You could probably get away with a 3cc Man o' War Jellyfish, which is useful as a tempo tool in its own right, but I think the lack of an efficient answer for Meddling Mage is just another argument against the Worldly Tutor/Eladmari's Call package. I can't see running this deck with out Lim Dul's Vault, cutting that card from a 2 card combo deck is like cutting Brainstorm from a blue deck.

Edit: Beaten to the punch, Boneshredder sounds better than Venser or Jellyfish tho'.

[Joon]

What do you guys think about my version?

3 Delta
4 Strand
3 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
2 Island

4 Illusionist
3 Nomads en-Kor
1 Shaman en-Kor
2 Narcomoeba

1 Sutured Ghoul
2 Krosan Cloudscraper
1 Wonder

4 Force of Will
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy

1 Dread Return
1 Dragon Breath
1 Shuko
1 Bridge from Below

4 Aether Vial

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions or Portent
4 Lim-Dûl's Vault

SB

4 Absolute Law
4 Pithing Needle
4 Engineered Explosives
3 Orim's Chant

Wonder & Bridge are techy because the 26/26 flying guy doesn't care if there are big Goyfs or not. Bridge is really good when you milled your whole library, because with Bridge you're able to flashback all Therapys first and then saccing the Zombietoken in the Dread Return. I'm playing 61 cards now, but i would like seeing an Echoing Truth or so in there against Meddling Mage naming Dread Return or Ley-Line. The rest is clear, I suppose. One Thing I really want to see in there is Daze, but I don't know, what to cut. Chants main would be techy, too. I hadn't any ideas for the Sideboard so I simply packed allround stuff in there - maybe you guys have better ideas? My meta is aggro heavy, but a few Combo are hanging around, too. Some (Aggro)-Rock Builds and very few Control. So I guess this Deck has good answers for my meta game.

[frogboy]

Wonder & Bridge are techy because the 26/26 flying guy doesn't care if there are big Goyfs or not.

Why does the 26/26 care if any other creatures even exist?

[Ewokslayer]

They could block and prevent enough damage to swing back with lethal.
Though it is important to remember that you can remove more than just the big creatures to the ghoul.
Narcomoebas, en-kors, and illusionists add up.

[zulander]

if they block, how do their creatures survive to swing back for lethal?

[Finn]

With either Dragon Breath or Kiki giving haste, I am wondering why the pacts are not in the deck. Is there a lot going on on the previous turns or something?

[zulander]

which pact?

[Finn]

Why not both? You don't like Eladamri's Call. Why not use the green pact? Daze is not so good, so use the blue one. I can't be the only one to think of this.

[Nightmare]

Why not both? You don't like Eladamri's Call. Why not use the green pact? Daze is not so good, so use the blue one. I can't be the only one to think of this.
The green pact only finds green creatures.

Total number of green creatures in this deck: 0.

The blue and black pacts would be ok.

[Di]

17 lands and a 4cc bounce spell really isn't going to fly.

I mentioned in my post the possible difficulty of using a 4cc spell in a deck with 17 lands. However, it seems Threshold has been able to do that the entire time with running Mystic Enforcer, plus this deck can always resort to upping Vial to 4 if it has to. I simply mentioned it because given the current tutor package many of you are using (Worldly + Call), it's an option you can grab that happens to deal with all permanents. With Man-o'-War/Bone Shredder, you won't be able to deal with Crypt or Leyline. With Proctor, you can't deal with Mage or Jailer. Of course, you could just run both, but that seems like a wasted slot.

[calosso]

I'd just note that the current maindeck has no way of dealing with a Meddling Mage on Dread Return or something like Withered Wretch or Yixlid Jailer. Now let's not kid ourselves here, this deck won't be winning very often through beatdown with an army of 1/1's, so I think you need to find a way of dealing with it. For the builds that run Lim-Dul's Vault it's less of a concern because they can easily tutor up Echoing Truth or something, but for the VA-style lists with the creature-based tutor approach I've found the best answer to be Venser, Shaper Savant. It's 4cc which I'll admit is a bit difficult and unappealing, but it's the cheapest creature you can get that will bounce any permanent. Hell, it acts as Remand too.

If you are running the Kiki-jiki/ sky hussar combo u can vial in the combo and still win that way. Also I have won by attacking w/ narcomeba and sky hussars and nomads.


I have added a main deck a bone shredder to deal with a creatures.


Also joon, it is better to play Dreadnought because u still have the ability to find 2 dreadnoughts and sac 1 to the other and have a 12/12 trampling beater. Jesse Harfield did it to beat gro in 1 of his rounds.

[Ewokslayer]

if they block, how do their creatures survive to swing back for lethal?

They would have to have enough creatures to block so the ghoul isn't lethal and have other creatures that aren't blocking to swing back with, or have some creatures with protection from black.


As for pacts. I think the risk/reward on it is too much. Very rarely does the deck have to counter something the turn it is comboing except against other blue decks. Against those decks, if they have two counters you lose the game instead of just trying again next turn.
I think the pact is unnecessary especially considering that the creatures can be vialed in around disruption and Therapies can work around everything else.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Going into this past weekend, I was confident that maindeck Mage removal was unnecessary. I didn't expect to see it in any pre-boarded games, and, even if I had, I doubt it would have named the correct card (Dread Return).

Post-board you can bring in Crippling Fatigue and use Vial to blow right through Mage, regardless of what they name.

I guess it's possible that people will start playing more maindeck Mages, or that people will start playing Yixlid Jailers and Withered Wretches at all, but I figure we should cross that bridge when we come to it.

I mean, as Calosso said, Plan B is to Vial in double Dreadnought. There is also a Plan C of attacking with four Narcomoebas.

Worldly Tutor beats out Lim Dul's in this deck, enough so that it's worth going to four colors. Eladamri's Call beats out Lim Dul's because it's better to draw alongside Worldly Tutor, because it's a better topdeck, and because it's easier on the mana (you don't want to be fetching black mana against Goblins).

[Di]

Worldly Tutor beats out Lim Dul's in this deck, enough so that it's worth going to four colors. Eladamri's Call beats out Lim Dul's because it's better to draw alongside Worldly Tutor, because it's a better topdeck, and because it's easier on the mana (you don't want to be fetching black mana against Goblins).

Worldly is in most cases better than Lim-Dul's Vault, but I disagree with Eladamri's Call. Although it's potentially a stronger topdeck than LDV if you're ready to combo right there, I think the fact that LDV will set up your draws and grab disruption and the like is more important.

Also, I think it would depend on the person's build that would decide such a thing. Personally, my build is very heavy in black, so fetching Underground Seas occur a lot more often than fetching a Tropical Island.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Worldly is in most cases better than Lim-Dul's Vault, but I disagree with Eladamri's Call. Although it's potentially a stronger topdeck than LDV if you're ready to combo right there, I think the fact that LDV will set up your draws and grab disruption and the like is more important.

Also, I think it would depend on the person's build that would decide such a thing. Personally, my build is very heavy in black, so fetching Underground Seas occur a lot more often than fetching a Tropical Island.

Having setup spells in both green and black is poor, because it means you will often need access to all four colors, even against, say, Goblins. This makes Wasteland a much bigger problem than it otherwise is.

Besides that, drawing both Worldly and LDV in an opening hand is awful against almost any deck.

Yes, LDV can sometimes set up multiple draw steps, but it's often just a two-mana Vampiric Tutor that strains your manabase. Eladamri's Call is an instant-speed Demonic Tutor, in colors you want to fetch for, which is plenty good enough to be my choice over LDV.

[calosso]

In my list of cephalid breakfast I main decked Counter top which was very good against combo and gro decks. In retrospect I should have put the counterbalances in the board.

Sensei's divining top is very good especially against Deadguy varients. I strongly believe that abeyance should be in the main deck because it improves the goblins match-up and it is still strong against combo and control.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Absolute Law against Goblins seems infy times better with the Ghoul Kill. Although Dragon's Breath falls off, once you get Ghoul in play, you can most likely block out a Piledriver and you can swing through any amount of goblins.

[Just me]

Hi All,

I've been reading here for a while now and I build a deck based of the 'inside scoop' version.

I decided to run maindeck the full 4 bridges, narcomoeba's and a single Flame-kin Zealot as the kill, assuming all hate to be SB. I ran no Vials, preferring Daze, more Therapy and 1 more land. That was a mistake I think.

The very small and badly organised tournament showed 1 important thing, this deck (as I build it) does not beat Angel-Stax. Which I had to play twice...

Goblins is rather close and exciting to play against, a lot of pressure but very winnable. Ichorid is just plain slower on average.

The Vials are needed and with Tutors which put cards in hand they become even more important. Don't be me, do not cut them.

I did like the Lim-Dûls Vault though. Pitches to FOW, combines brilliantly with Brainstorm and pretty much always finds what you need, creature or anything else. 1 play involved me vs Goblins, the 3rd game. Next I would die, eot I use the LDV, finding Brainstorm, Illusionist and Needle. Use Brainstorm to draw all, Needle the Sharpshooter to prevent nastiness, cast Illsusionist and go off. It all just fitted, no cards left, 2 life left and his Mogg Fanatics also Needled. That was a great 3rd game, fighting through 2 Fanatics, Sharpshooter and Tormod's Crypt.

But vs Stax this decks feels dead. Trinisphere makes the cantrips (or Tutors) slow, adds mana to 'free' spells like FOW, C. Therapy and Dread Return. Ghostly Prison makes attacking with multiple tokens nigh impossible. Any SB suggestions here?

[Illissius]

How about four Tarmogoyfs instead of two Dreadnoughts in the Ghoul versions? The characteristic setting ability works even in the graveyard, and the deck contains every traditional card type, so they're good for a combined 24/28. You're already running green, and the Goyf is pretty awesome all by itself; it certainly eclipses Dreadnought in this regard (not requiring a second copy and a Vial to be a giant beatstick). The biggest issue is obviously the two extra slots it requires.

Also, as out of the four of you, none ran it, I assume you thought this through: why no Street Wraith? The slots are effectively "free", it pumps Ghoul, and it interacts positively with both Worldly Tutor and Portent.

Is a 3 / 1 mix of Nomads / Shamans better than 4 / 1? Why? While it feels natural, I don't see any logical reason why having equal amounts of your two combo pieces (en-Kors and Illusionists) should necessarily be the optimal configuration.

[Di]

How about four Tarmogoyfs instead of two Dreadnoughts in the Ghoul versions? The characteristic setting ability works even in the graveyard, and the deck contains every traditional card type, so they're good for a combined 24/28. You're already running green, and the Goyf is pretty awesome all by itself; it certainly eclipses Dreadnought in this regard (not requiring a second copy and a Vial to be a giant beatstick). The biggest issue is obviously the two extra slots it requires.

That's actually a pretty good idea as it gives you an alternative win condition in the maindeck better than the Dreadnought outlet. However, I think the concern would be lack of space. The combo already requires a lot of slots, and when you factor in disruption/protection and draw/tutor, it's rather difficult to fit the extra 2 Tarmogoyfs in.


Also, as out of the four of you, none ran it, I assume you thought this through: why no Street Wraith? The slots are effectively "free", it pumps Ghoul, and it interacts positively with both Worldly Tutor and Portent.

Randomly drawing into combo pieces is really bad. I remember when I tested Street Wraith in the deck I was often frustrated by cantripping into a Ghoul or Dragon Breath, and being forced to waste a Therapy on myself.


Is a 3 / 1 mix of Nomads / Shamans better than 4 / 1? Why? While it feels natural, I don't see any logical reason why having equal amounts of your two combo pieces (en-Kors and Illusionists) should necessarily be the optimal configuration.

It doesn't have anything to do with the pieces being equal amounts. I think it's just the fact that you already have 6-8 tutors to find them, so the 5th en-kor isn't necessary.

[BreathWeapon]

It doesn't have anything to do with the pieces being equal amounts. I think it's just the fact that you already have 6-8 tutors to find them, so the 5th en-kor isn't necessary.

If you are using Lim Dul's Vault, Shuko is worth increasing that slot to 5x just so the deck doesn't have to fetch for white. Shuko + Illusionist vs Tormod's Crypt also lets you put 4 Narcomoeba on the board and then equip one of those Narcomoebas for a 4 turn clock.

Edit: Also, the deck switches in between the Ghoul and Kiki kill a lot, and Street Wraith is just a nuisance with the Kiki kill in the deck.

[troopatroop]

Are there any compelling reasons NOT to play this deck at the moment? It seems virtually immune to removal, plays disruption, tutoring, and draw... much like Flash. It wins turn 2-3 a strong portion of the time, and can slow roll you just as well.

The deck seems good enough to make me wanna shell out the bills to buy it. What are it's weak matchups? It only really seems like Sui/Deadguy builds would be annoying. Is it more lackluster than it seems?

[calosso]

Are there any compelling reasons NOT to play this deck at the moment? It seems virtually immune to removal, plays disruption, tutoring, and draw... much like Flash. It wins turn 2-3 a strong portion of the time, and can slow roll you just as well.

The deck seems good enough to make me wanna shell out the bills to buy it. What are it's weak matchups? It only really seems like Sui/Deadguy builds would be annoying. Is it more lackluster than it seems?

It has a 50/50 against goblins, because it has fanatic,and gempalm to kill off illuionist and en-kors. It can also disrupt your mana base.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Doesn't Crypt seem awfully good against it also?

[Rastadon]

Doesn't Crypt seem awfully good against it also?

Yeah, but no one plays crypt anymore since it doesn't entirely neuter Tarmogoyf.

If goblins is giving you trouble, why not swap the shuko for lightning greaves? It costs 1 more mana, yeah, but it serves the same function and more.

[Di]

If goblins is giving you trouble, why not swap the shuko for lightning greaves? It costs 1 more mana, yeah, but it serves the same function and more.

Lightning Greaves can't target the same creature over and over again because it makes it untargetable.


Yeah, but no one plays crypt anymore since it doesn't entirely neuter Tarmogoyf.

And nobody in their right mind would ever think of putting Tormod's Crypt back into their sideboard? Honestly, don't be surprised to see nearly the amount of hate Flash saw coming up within the next few big events.

[Rastadon]

Lightning Greaves can't target the same creature over and over again because it makes it untargetable.

It only makes it untargetable as long as it's equipped. Bounce it to another creature and it can be targeted again. It's just like shuko.

[Di]

However, the entire reasoning behind using Shuko is because it can be used by itself with Cephalid Illusionist. If you have 2 creatures in play with this deck and haven't won the game, something is going terribly wrong.

[frogboy]

re: goblins matchup: Absolute Law?

[APriestOfGix]

also the deck loses to Leyline, the new SUPER populat gravehater...

The problme theis deck has it it scoops to gravehate, serious grave hate, not light stuff, but Crypt, Extripate, Leyline, Planer Void, etc. all nerf it...

[zulander]

Are there any compelling reasons NOT to play this deck at the moment? It seems virtually immune to removal, plays disruption, tutoring, and draw... much like Flash. It wins turn 2-3 a strong portion of the time, and can slow roll you just as well.
Are you kidding me? The deck is good but no where as powerful as flash was. This isn't flash 2.0. And no it isn't immune to removal at all, and it's still gy combo so things like crypt, extirpate, leyline etc.. still work. So does enchantment hate for the ghoul combo. Don't get me wrong the deck is very solid, but I think it's being overhyped a bit right now.

[calosso]

For graveyard hate don't forget that cephalid breakfast does play counterspells, also spells like leyline of the void, planar void, and crypt there is a creature called stern proctor you can search up for.


@Frogboy

Absolute law only works in the ghoul version, because in the kiki version you cannot target hussar w/ kiki.
In the goblins match-up I bring in abeyance because it stops gempalm and fanatic.

That leaves extirpate which can be a problem but you can hard cast all the creatures w/ vial in the kiki version.

[BreathWeapon]

also the deck loses to Leyline, the new SUPER populat gravehater...

The problme theis deck has it it scoops to gravehate, serious grave hate, not light stuff, but Crypt, Extripate, Leyline, Planer Void, etc. all nerf it...

The deck doesn't lose to Crypt, your opponent just puts 4 Narcomoeba on the board and attacks in the air while En-Kor and Illusionist block on the ground. The deck doesn't lose to Extirpate either, your opponent just puts 1 Narcomoeba on the board and sacrifices it to Cabal Therapy (rinse and repeat). Your opponent can also just sacrifice all of his Narcomoebas to Mind Twist you and then tutor for an alternate win condition (Living Wish or Gaea's Blessing). You can get away with Crypt in Goblins, but it's awful in Threshold. You really want either Leyline or Planar Void for the graveyard, or Engineered Explosives, Pyrite Spellbomb or Seal of Fire etc. for the Illusionist. It's really easy to win around Crypt or Mage on Dread Return or Needle on your kill condition as long as you aren't facing Aggro esq. pressure behind them.

The deck is almost identical to Flash, it just has a non-graveyard based weakness that gives aggro a fighting chance. No one is saying the deck is as good as Flash was, but even being half as good as Flash is still enough to over power most of the decks in the format. Unless people metagame for Breakfast, it'll continue to put up some serious results. There's also a lot of innovation to be had with the deck itself, Sylvan Library is an incredible cantrip/draw engine for instance.

[Happy Gilmore]

That's actually a pretty good idea as it gives you an alternative win condition in the maindeck better than the Dreadnought outlet. However, I think the concern would be lack of space. The combo already requires a lot of slots, and when you factor in disruption/protection and draw/tutor, it's rather difficult to fit the extra 2 Tarmogoyfs in.


You can do it by cutting the 2x Calls. Thats one option.

On a side note, vialing in Tarmogoyf seems amazing against so so many decks.

[zulander]

The deck doesn't lose to Crypt, your opponent just puts 4 Narcomoeba on the board and attacks in the air while En-Kor and Illusionist block on the ground.
This only works if your opponent doesn't play creatures or creature removal. Seems more of a backup plan. And you do realize that putting 4 narcs on the board for the win is pretty rare right? Unless you cantrip into 4 narcs/tutors. In which case your opponent deserves to lose because his deck can't stop 1/1 fliers.


The deck doesn't lose to Extirpate either, your opponent just puts 1 Narcomoeba on the board and sacrifices it to Cabal Therapy (rinse and repeat).
Sure, but if you have no creatures in your hand your opponent just extirpates the narcs and you can enjoy trying to flash back dread return.


Your opponent can also just sacrifice all of his Narcomoebas to Mind Twist you and then tutor for an alternate win condition (Living Wish or Gaea's Blessing).
How? Multiple therapy flashbacks?


You can get away with Crypt in Goblins, but it's awful in Threshold. You really want either Leyline or Planar Void for the graveyard, or Engineered Explosives, Pyrite Spellbomb or Seal of Fire etc. for the Illusionist. It's really easy to win around Crypt or Mage on Dread Return or Needle on your kill condition as long as you aren't facing Aggro esq. pressure behind them.

I didn't realize that threshold and goblins were the only viable decks in vintage. I'm so sorry.


The deck is almost identical to Flash, it just has a non-graveyard based weakness that gives aggro a fighting chance. No one is saying the deck is as good as Flash was, but even being half as good as Flash is still enough to over power most of the decks in the format. Unless people metagame for Breakfast, it'll continue to put up some serious results. There's also a lot of innovation to be had with the deck itself, Sylvan Library is an incredible cantrip/draw engine for instance.
I agree that it's a great deck and there's a ton of innovation to be had, I remember the early editions included library and dark confidant in the board.

[BreathWeapon]

If the opponent plays Crypt, you can mill yourself three cards at a time. At this point the opponent can't sacrifice Crypt, because it's keeping you off of your combo. It's not Plan A, but 1 Nomad En-Kor, 1 Cephallid Illusionist and 4 Narcomoeba on the board can still win the game, and if it can't, you can Therapy your opponent's hand away (one Narcomoeba and one Therapy at a time) and block until you can draw/tutor/wish/mill an alternate win condition.

If the opponent plays Extirpate on Narcomoeba, then you only need one more creature in order to Flashback Dread Return and you have 2 blockers standing in their way until you can find it. You can either draw/tutor/wish for it, or you can MD/SB a Roar of the Wurm, Call of the Herd, Acorn Harvest or Chatter of the Squirrel etc. for it.

Goblins and Threshold weren't the point, the point was that Crypt only works in a deck that has multiple threats for pressure, because other wise the Narcomoeba's can attack in the air while En-Kor and Illusionist block on the ground and win the race.

I've lost games against Tormod's Crypt and Extirpate, but I've also won games against Tormod's Crypt and Extirpate because I could still deck myself. Compared to Leyline of the Void, Planar Void, Yixlid Jailor, Samurai of the Pale Curtain etc., Tormod's Crypt and Extirpate are a nuisance. Even Coffin Purge is better than Extirpate, because Breakfast can't "discard" it or play around it.

Edit: You can also SB in Ancient Grudge(s), which force the activation of Tormod's Crypt and remove Pithing Needle on your Kiki win condition. Crippling Fatigue serves a similar role against Meddling Mage on Dread Return for those that need/want an answer to it.

[Nightmare]

You're making the assumption that Dread Return isn't milled before you have the opportunity to Therapy out Extirpate. This is pretty stupid planning.

[zulander]

Or that your opponents win condition is in the gy (ghoul/kiki etc..)

[BreathWeapon]

You're making the assumption that Dread Return isn't milled before you have the opportunity to Therapy out Extirpate. This is pretty stupid planning.

If you don't know the opponent has Extirpate, you begin to mill your deck any way. If you do know the opponent has Extirpate, or you expect the opponent has Extirpate, you can either draw/tutor for the discard or begin to mill your deck (assuming you just don't have the time to draw/tutor for discard). I'm not saying that the deck can't lose to Extirpate, I'm saying that the deck can play around Extirpate by decking, therefor Leyline of the Void, Planar Void or Yixlid Jailor etc. are preferable because you don't give your opponent any outs (not to mention reactive answers are awful anyway against a deck with discard, if you put your answer on the board, then the opponent has to find bounce).

Edit: And you're assuming that the deck loses if the Extirpate RFGs the Dread Return or kill condition, when you can just continue to mill your deck for Narcomoebas and a Flashback creature etc.

It's the equivalent of countering the Donate, it stops the combo, but the combo deck is still in a better position to win than if you had countered the Grandeur. Targeting the cards the deck mills isn't as good as targeting the cards that mill the deck or targeting the mill altogether. That's the only point I wanted to get across.

[troopatroop]

It's the equivalent of countering the Donate, it stops the combo, but the combo deck is still in a better position to win than if you had countered the Grandeur. Targeting the cards the deck mills isn't as good as targeting the cards that mill the deck or targeting the mill altogether. That's the only point I wanted to get across.


That's not always the case. Countering the Donate potentially leaves them unable to pay the upkeep and lose yet another combo piece. You create Strawmen like I have never ever seen.

[zulander]

I'm not saying that the deck can't lose to Extirpate, I'm saying that the deck can play around Extirpate by decking.

Ok so if I extirpate your ghoul/dread return/any combo creature the way you'll win is by decking yourself? I'm confused.

[Di]

Apparently he is under the impression that 4 Narocmoeba are somehow going to win the game. I mean, that seems perfectly reasonable, because it's not like people are playing removal in this format, or better creatures killing you or anything.

[Machinus]

Is Crypt good enough?

You can prevent them from using Dread Return by using it before they have the combo, but they can also just slow mill themselves and Therapy you until you can't stop a Dreadnought.

There is also the matter of artifact removal by the Breakfast player themselves. Slow milling into Cabal Therapy and Ancient Grudge is going to wreck the Crypt plan.

[BreathWeapon]

Apparently he is under the impression that 4 Narocmoeba are somehow going to win the game. I mean, that seems perfectly reasonable, because it's not like people are playing removal in this format, or better creatures killing you or anything.

I never said that 4 Narcomoeba, 1 En-Kor and 1 Illusionist are guaranteed to win the game, I said that they can win the game. If you drop a 5 turn evasive clock, two blockers that can block any two creatures and live on your second turn and back it up with discard/counters, you can win the game.

What it comes down to is that Crypt and Extirpate give the opponent outs, even if those outs are say 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5 percent etc., that's not worth using that card against this deck over the alternatives.

@Troopatroop, "Countering the Donate" is just an expression, it isn't meant to be taken literally. If you want another example, you counter the Buried Alive before you counter the Reanimates, because the Buried Alive puts the rest of your deck into a position to to be utilized. When you have one card that facilitates other cards in the deck, you deal with that card first. In this case, if you don't, your opponent mills Ancient Grudge, Ray of Revelation, Crippling Fatigue, Narcomoeba a Flashback creature etc. and has a chance to wiggle off of the hook.

@Zulander, you mill until you can't afford to mill any more. If you play with a Gaea's Blessing, it isn't much of an issue.

[zulander]

Is Crypt good enough?

You can prevent them from using Dread Return by using it before they have the combo, but they can also just slow mill themselves and Therapy you until you can't stop a Dreadnought.

There is also the matter of artifact removal by the Breakfast player themselves. Slow milling into Cabal Therapy and Ancient Grudge is going to wreck the Crypt plan.
As long as they don't mill away a combo piece then I'd agree. But is that a chance you're willing to take when you're playing the kiki version?

[Shriekmaw]

I would like to have a further discussion since it was just touched on during this thread about the 2 different win conditions that can be run in Cephalid Breakfast.

Which version do you prefer?


I've been running the kiki-jiki combo version and I'm really liking it, but I'm not sure if thats the best version to run. Seems like the Ghoul version has better answers to hate, but then again what do I know.

[laststepdown]

Playing against this deck in a Nats side event, I thought I was going to die to Sutured Ghoul instinctively. When he showed Hussar/Kiki, it seemed better. If you have counterspell backup, then Kiki will not be susceptible to a BEB or STP or whatnot. That being said, I think both have their advantages. If I was taking this deck tomorrow, I'd bring Hussar/Kiki though.

EDIT: Also, might I ask why Call is played over Living Wish? This would mean the single Stern Proctor and one Illusionist could be moved to board for 4x Wish, but then Worldly Tutor doesn't grab the 1/2. In all other instances it seems better though, as you can run en-Kors in the board as well as a Sex Monkey-esque toolbox. Thoughts?

[zulander]

Call is an instant, living wish isn't.

[Nosomo.]

I see that crypt does not work but it seems Leyline of the Void would hurt ya real bad because then you have to go beatdown or hard combo. Is there anyway around it for ya?

[Di]

Tutor for Stern Proctor? The deck can deal with Leyline just as easily as it can deal with Crypt. Well, it's not technically easy, but it can deal with them both all the same. Post-board I imagine there are some configuation of Chain of Vapors or Echoing Truths for them as well.

[Nosomo.]

Tutor for Stern Proctor? The deck can deal with Leyline just as easily as it can deal with Crypt. Well, it's not technically easy, but it can deal with them both all the same. Post-board I imagine there are some configuation of Chain of Vapors or Echoing Truths for them as well.
So in the mean time you need enough mana to combo off that turn or have enough counter magic to stop the replay? But if you are playing against black and hope to combo off they should at least have some creature kill saved up in hand and if so how would you win in that situation?

[calosso]

So in the mean time you need enough mana to combo off that turn or have enough counter magic to stop the replay? But if you are playing against black and hope to combo off they should at least have some creature kill saved up in hand and if so how would you win in that situation?

EOT worldly tutor, and if u have vial at 2 u can vial proctor and then play both combo pieces for 3 mana that doesn't seem that hard since breakfast can mold it's hand quiet well.

[Nosomo.]

EOT worldly tutor, and if you have vial at 2 you can vial proctor and then play both combo pieces for 3 mana that doesn't seem that hard since breakfast can mold it's hand quiet well.

True you can do that but if they are playing black they do run discard most o fthe time and they could get rid of the tutor/proctor. If they cannot the game will probably go in your favor.
But the one thing I like about this deck is what Ewokslayer said

From the post

Cephalid Breakfast vs. TES feels like you are a 300 lb linebacker tackling a retarded baby.

[troopatroop]

So in the mean time you need enough mana to combo off that turn or have enough counter magic to stop the replay? But if you are playing against black and hope to combo off they should at least have some creature kill saved up in hand and if so how would you win in that situation?

You don't really fear creature kill in the way I think you mean. Before you play Dread Return you flashback Cabal Therapys to get rid of any hate you might fear.

[calosso]

You don't really fear creature kill in the way I think you mean. Before you play Dread Return you flashback Cabal Therapys to get rid of any hate you might fear.

Actually when you are trying to resolve either nomad or illusionist in response you can kill the other one so you don't get combo'd out.

[troopatroop]

Actually when you are trying to resolve either nomad or illusionist in response you can kill the other one so you don't get combo'd out.

Well thats why you vial the combo in response, or dig for Therapy and Fow.

[calosso]

Well thats why you vial the combo in response, or dig for Therapy and Fow.

That's fine but you don't always have vial, and against goblins you cannot force Gempalm, and I doubt you will force a fanatic. So that leaves you to find a 1-2 of theopy in a very limited amount of time.

[Nightmare]

This conversation is getting stupid. We're done with the "well, if you do that, then I do this!" crap. Test the matchup if you're concerned with how it plays out.

[blacklotus3636]

Perhaps I'm missing something but I fail to see how this deck consistently goldfishes turn 2 unless you have both combo pieces in your opening hand. From the list I saw on the front page I saw no accelerants so I don't know how it would work. Maybe someone could provide a reliable goldfish percentage for me and/or show how the turn 2 goldfish is as reliable as people say. Just trying to clear the air

[ReAnimated]

You usually find the 2 peices with the Can-trips and tutors I don't know the percentages , but with 6 Tutors and 8 Can-trips doesn't seem so hard by turn 2 or 3.

[Anusien]

Is there a reason not to play the Cephalid Brunch version of the deck? It seems like the largest issue with the deck comes from a vulnerability to graveyard hate. The Life combo lets you get access to all the same common elements (which is most of them) while dodging a lot of the relevant hate, like Meddling Mage on Dread Return or Tormod's Crypt. You also get to save a slot on the combo because the extra creatures add power and toughness to Sutured Ghoul.

The Life combo seems extraordinarily good against Goblins. Life has always traditionally rolled through aggressive decks and it basically gives you free extra ways to put together a defense. The traditional issue with Life.dec was the presence of High Tide, which is now diminished.

[frogboy]

Life combo is harder to assemble and Vamp isn't legal.

[Bovinious]

Infinite Life doesnt actually win you the game either, your opponent could just play a few creatures blocking your weenies from swinging in, and draw you out since most likely you'd have less cards due to tutors/cantrips.

[blacklotus3636]

You usually find the 2 peices with the Can-trips and tutors I don't know the percentages , but with 6 Tutors and 8 Can-trips doesn't seem so hard by turn 2 or 3.

From the list I saw on the front page this deck runs no accelerants. So without accelerants you only have 3 mana between turns 1 and 2 which is just enough mana to play the combo if you managed to draw it in your first
8-9 cards. I'm no math major but drawing 1 of a 4 of and then drawing 1 of another 4 of consistently within the first 8-9 draws of the game seems like it would be a little more difficult than people seem to imply. If the decklist has been changed to add accelerants of some kind or has changed significantly since the front page please fill me in on the current list.

[frogboy]

Infinite Life doesnt actually win you the game either, your opponent could just play a few creatures blocking your weenies from swinging in, and draw you out since most likely you'd have less cards due to tutors/cantrips.

well you could also gain infinite and then take a while to assemble the perfect hand and crush them with the A plan, presumably involving casting really a lot of cabal therapies.

[Anusien]

In the past, a singleton Serra Avatar (even out of the board) or even maindeck Test of Endurance, optionally with Rector out of the board gave you a win condition. Even Volrath's Stronghold or something similar. If you lose versus an aggro deck with infinite life, you've really screwed up.

[Occam]

I am wondering if the deck has outs to an extract? Other combo decks already using blue (TES, high-tide) with weak matchups against breakfast could use it to remove the kill piece, giving them the win. FOW will not always be around either, and it seems that sideboarded extracts would turn the matchup to at least even.

[ReAnimated]

Maybe we find a spot for another Dread Return , possibly in the side , but what would you take out?

[Nightmare]

Maybe we find a spot for another Dread Return , possibly in the side , but what would you take out?What good would that do?

If you're playing the Kiki version, the opponent removes the Kiki or Hussar or Guide.

If you're playing the Ghoul version, the opponent removes the Ghoul.

Either way, you're in trouble.

[calosso]

What good would that do?

If you're playing the Kiki version, the opponent removes the Kiki or Hussar or Guide.

If you're playing the Ghoul version, the opponent removes the Ghoul.

Either way, you're in trouble.

Actually you have to remove kiki or Hussar, because if those two are still in the deck then you can still vial both in and still combo out.

[nitewolf9]

Does anyone actually play extract? And can't the ghoul version just go for the phyrexian dreadnought kill? Extract has to be the most narrow card ever right now.

edit: I suppose if TES has such an abysmal matchup against this deck a one of extract could be strong to wish for? I don't know how much that would help.

[Occam]

Does anyone actually play extract? And can't the ghoul version just go for the phyrexian dreadnought kill? Extract has to be the most narrow card ever right now.

Other combo decks could consider extract, since they do not have a good matchup against breakfast. TES can run a single one as a wish target. Decks running mystical tutor could use a 1of in sb. It isn't used much now, but that is because the meta may not have adapted to breakfast yet.

Well, of course nought can be used for the alt win cond, but that gives at least another 2 turns for the opposing deck to win or find an answer to nought. With grips, bounce, smothers and stps rampant, it should not be too hard.

[Anusien]

Out of curiousity, how much life do most people have when they go off with this deck? Due to the new changes in continuous effects, Serra Avatar will have its P/T while in your library, graveyard or removed from game. If you are winning at 12-13 or more, one Avatar is at least as good as Colossus, and one might allow you to Ghoul out without the need for the second creature.

[Bane of the Living]

Extract? Whats the big deal with that? I misread those posts and thought we were talking about Extirpate. Exi has split second so its much more dangerous and actually usefull unlike Extract.

[Di]

Out of curiousity, how much life do most people have when they go off with this deck? Due to the new changes in continuous effects, Serra Avatar will have its P/T while in your library, graveyard or removed from game. If you are winning at 12-13 or more, one Avatar is at least as good as Colossus, and one might allow you to Ghoul out without the need for the second creature.

How, exactly, are you keeping Serra Avatar in the graveyard? If you mill it, it goes back into your library, thus you can't remove it to Sutured Ghoul.

[APriestOfGix]

Extract is really bad for this deck.

It makes so you HAVE to have a counterspell or lose.

Extripate, is just a game loss, luckly it's not a sorcery (really? i just said it's good they made it and instant over a sorcery... lol) or TES would be crshing this deck.

[Anusien]

How, exactly, are you keeping Serra Avatar in the graveyard? If you mill it, it goes back into your library, thus you can't remove it to Sutured Ghoul.
Erm, whoops.

[from Cairo]

What good would that do?

If you're playing the Kiki version, the opponent removes the Kiki or Hussar or Guide.

If you're playing the Ghoul version, the opponent removes the Ghoul.

Either way, you're in trouble.

Would it make more sense to remove Dread Return?

Leaving it in the deck means that they can still mill their deck and return something. In the case of the Ghoul version they could recur one of whatever huge P/T guy they were going to remove to the Ghoul. I know a few people have suggested Cognivore or Krosan Cloudscraper, Dread Returning either of them, granted is not as powerful as getting Ghoul, but could still very often be game winning.

[DS2]

I tested this , but what do you do when you draw kiki-jiki or sky hussar or karmic guide

Do you wait on a brainstorm?

[Eldariel]

I tested this , but what do you do when you draw kiki-jiki or sky hussar or karmic guide

Do you wait on a brainstorm?

You Therapy yourself.

[Occam]

Extract? Whats the big deal with that? I misread those posts and thought we were talking about Extirpate. Exi has split second so its much more dangerous and actually usefull unlike Extract.

Extirpate is more dangerous, but not when you place it in context. Breakfast has its own niche in the meta as it is a combo deck that does well against other combo decks. TES has burning wish, which gives it 4 autowin slots if it finds and resolves an extract, while breakfast has to mull for a hand with both gas and permission to work around that. Ichorid and solidarity are blue as well, and have tutors to get a singleton extract, causing the same problems for a breakfast player. Other decks like aluren/SI have access to black, and thus extirpate. Extract is a card that can quickly take away one of breakfast's advantages, the good matchup against combo.

[Happy Gilmore]

I think you are going to find that there are versions of Breakfast that don't lose to bad cards like extract. How about lists using Tarmogoyf instead of Dreadnought for instance?

[Shriekmaw]

I think you are going to find that there are versions of Breakfast that don't lose to bad cards like extract. How about lists using Tarmogoyf instead of Dreadnought for instance?



I'm not quite sure how good just having Tarmogoyf is going to be in the deck. I do believe we are going to have to find ways to make an alternate sideboard strategy b/c the hate will be increasing. I have all ready seen this happening in Syracuse with sideboards.

I've been having a pretty difficult time beating landstill in a match when I have to go up against extirpate and humility after game 1. I'm not so sure that this is a positive matchup for Breakfast.

Thoughts about specific matchups and your experiences?

[frogboy]

Do people actually sideboard cards like Extirpate? I mean, really? And if they do, couldn't you just show them Cabal Therapy?

[Shriekmaw]

Do people actually sideboard cards like Extirpate? I mean, really? And if they do, couldn't you just show them Cabal Therapy?



My experiences with Extirpate is will Landstill. First, they have a lot of good cards against you main deck like explosives and swords. When having to deal with those main deck answers in addition to Extirpate and Humility, it becomes quite difficult to win in addition to counter magic.

Cabal Therapy is simply not enough in my opinion to fight these cards.

[calosso]

My experiences with Extirpate is will Landstill. First, they have a lot of good cards against you main deck like explosives and swords. When having to deal with those main deck answers in addition to Extirpate and Humility, it becomes quite difficult to win in addition to counter magic.

Cabal Therapy is simply not enough in my opinion to fight these cards.

Explosives does very little, ll it does is it destroys aether vial which can be annoying but it is not to devastating. If they do not have explosives that means aether vial should be active and should render counterspells useless, until they combo off and therefore cabal therapy the forces, and counterspells that are in there hand, whic leaves swords and humility which can be countered.

[outsideangel]

Extirpate is more dangerous, but not when you place it in context. Breakfast has its own niche in the meta as it is a combo deck that does well against other combo decks. TES has burning wish, which gives it 4 autowin slots if it finds and resolves an extract, while breakfast has to mull for a hand with both gas and permission to work around that. Ichorid and solidarity are blue as well, and have tutors to get a singleton extract, causing the same problems for a breakfast player. Other decks like aluren/SI have access to black, and thus extirpate. Extract is a card that can quickly take away one of breakfast's advantages, the good matchup against combo.

Abeyance/Chant also take care of Extirpate nicely, as well as Crypt, etc. Extract works before the Breakfast player mills his library, and thus works in response to the Abeyance/Chant.

[Happy Gilmore]

Abeyance/Chant also take care of Extirpate nicely, as well as Crypt, etc. Extract works before the Breakfast player mills his library, and thus works in response to the Abeyance/Chant.

Ummm...its a sorcery. But I guess yea, it can be cast before they go off.

[outsideangel]

Ummm...its a sorcery. But I guess yea, it can be cast before they go off.

Whoops...still, Extirpate is vulvnerable to Abeyance/Chant, and Extract is not.

[Happy Gilmore]

Whoops...still, Extirpate is vulvnerable to Abeyance/Chant, and Extract is not.

Nod. And it pitches to force when you draw multiples :wink: .

But I ask you this, what else is extract good against? Not much. There are better cards that also hate on other combo decks.

[laststepdown]

I'm still shocked at Tarmogoyf having a bigger P/T than 0/1 in the bones...when did they change this?

[outsideangel]

But I ask you this, what else is extract good against? Not much. There are better cards that also hate on other combo decks.

Yes, but it Extirpate good against anything? :wink:

[Nihil Credo]

Yes, but it Extirpate good against anything? :wink:
Short version: Yes.

Long version: Hell yes.

Longer version: In increasing order of effectiveness: control decks, engine decks, recursion decks, slower combo decks, graveyard-centered decks. Respective examples are: Landstill, Survival, Loam.dec, Solidarity/Iggy Pop, Ichorid.

[SillyMetalGAT]

I dont want to sound like a noob and it may have already been discussed but how do you bring back the Sky Hussar with Karmic Guide tokens? Its not being played from your hand, so how does that work?

[nitewolf9]

I dont want to sound like a noob and it may have already been discussed but how do you bring back the Sky Hussar with Karmic Guide tokens? Its not being played from your hand, so how does that work?

The tokens get the comes into play ability trigger because they are coming into play as exact copies of the karmic guide. When tokens are created any comes into play abilities will trigger and go on the stack.

Once again an explanation of the combo: dread return to get karmic guide, target kiki-jiki with the guide, kiki comes into play, then target guide with kiki, token of guide comes into play, target sky hussar with token's CIP ability, sky hussar comes into play and untaps your creatures, kiki targets sky husar, token comes into play and kiki untaps, rinse, repeat.

[Silverdragon]

Uhm, see Flash. The token does in fact come into play so its comes into play trigger triggers, returning Sky Hussar. The powerlevel errata that made his ability trigger only when played from your hand was removed a long time ago. (well about a year ago to be more precise)
http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=12955

edit: sorry I was still typing while nitewolf9 posted

[laststepdown]

Guys, I have read on this forum that RFG'ing Tarmogoyf from the grave with Sutured Ghoul will give you a HUGE/HUGE+1 increase in Ghoul's power/toughness. I'd love to believe this, i just can't find the rule to prove this. anyone have actual proof? i check the comp rules and it says nothing of the sort.

[zulander]

Guys, I have read on this forum that RFG'ing Tarmogoyf from the grave with Sutured Ghoul will give you a HUGE/HUGE+1 increase in Ghoul's power/toughness. I'd love to believe this, i just can't find the rule to prove this. anyone have actual proof? i check the comp rules and it says nothing of the sort.

From the comp rules.

208.2. Some creature cards have power and/or toughness represented by a * instead of a number. The object has a characteristic-defining ability that sets its power and/or toughness according to some stated condition. This ability functions in all zones.

[Illissius]

Sylvan Tutor
:g:
Sorcery
Search your library for a creature card and reveal that card. Shuffle your library, then put the card on top of it.

Have you guys considered this over Eladamri's Call? I mean, obviously it's worse than Worldly, being a sorcery and all, but it also doesn't cost two mana.

[SillyMetalGAT]

The tokens get the comes into play ability trigger because they are coming into play as exact copies of the karmic guide. When tokens are created any comes into play abilities will trigger and go on the stack.

Once again an explanation of the combo: dread return to get karmic guide, target kiki-jiki with the guide, kiki comes into play, then target guide with kiki, token of guide comes into play, target sky hussar with token's CIP ability, sky hussar comes into play and untaps your creatures, kiki targets sky husar, token comes into play and kiki untaps, rinse, repeat.

Yeah but the card itself says "When Karmic Guide comes into play, IF YOU PLAYED IT FROM YOUR HAND......" so how does that work? Im sorry im sure it works, but I would like to know how since its been an issue in testing.

[calosso]

Yeah but the card itself says "When Karmic Guide comes into play, IF YOU PLAYED IT FROM YOUR HAND......" so how does that work? Im sorry im sure it works, but I would like to know how since its been an issue in testing.

Oracle text: Flying, protection from black
Echo 3WW (At the beginning of your upkeep, if this came under your control since the beginning of your last upkeep, sacrifice it unless you pay its echo cost.)
When Karmic Guide comes into play, return target creature card from your graveyard to play.

[jamest]

After reading through this thread, it's still unclear to me what the best hate against this deck is. So what is it? Extract, Extirpate, Leyline ... ? If the answer is dependent on the opposing archetype (i.e. aggro, control, combo, etc) or whatever else, please fill in the details. Thanks.

[DS2]

I have tested this a bit longer

And still i have a problem with this deck when i'm holding kiki, sky hussar or karmic guide in my hand

Sometimes if waited for 10 turns to draw either brainstorm of therapy to get rid of kiki,... in my hand

Also wouldn't 2 stern proctors be better then 1. I've had 2 needles on my vial and i needed vial hard

[Silverdragon]

You can flashback milled Cabal Therapies to get Kiki and others in the yard. For example you have a hand with Kiki and Karmic Guide, then you play Nomads en Kor and Cephalid Illusionist and mill your library. Now you have 3 Narcomoeba a Nomad and an Illusionist in play, and the 2 Cabal Therapies that were in your deck are in your graveyard. You sacrifice two Moebas to flashback the two Therapies and discard Kiki and Karmic Guide. Now you have 1 Nomad, 1 Illusionist and one Moeba in play with all of the combo in graveyard.
Of course with only 2 Therapies in the deck you lose if you combo with all 3 of the creatures in your hand but generally you'll always find ways in time to get all the pieces into your grave.

[DS2]

ah I see

didn't think of that option (mill yourself to find therapy)

thx

[nitewolf9]

Yeah but the card itself says "When Karmic Guide comes into play, IF YOU PLAYED IT FROM YOUR HAND......" so how does that work? Im sorry im sure it works, but I would like to know how since its been an issue in testing.

I know your question has been answered, but where on earth did you get the "from your hand" part? That's not on the card or the oracle text.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGULG/karmic_guide.jpg

[zulander]

I know your question has been answered, but where on earth did you get the "from your hand" part? That's not on the card or the oracle text.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGULG/karmic_guide.jpg

His MWS hasn't been updated in over a year.

[Nightmare]

I know your question has been answered, but where on earth did you get the "from your hand" part? That's not on the card or the oracle text.
Until recently (like, 6 months ago at this point, maybe more) Karmic Guide had power-level erratum that made it only work when played from your hand. It was removed along with the errata on Cloud of Faeries, Priest of Gix, Palinchron, etc.

[nitewolf9]

Until recently (like, 6 months ago at this point, maybe more) Karmic Guide had power-level erratum that made it only work when played from your hand. It was removed along with the errata on Cloud of Faeries, Priest of Gix, Palinchron, etc.

Well there you go, I was just not understanding how power level erratum can be listed "on the card itself" but it explains where that idea came from. I guess that's the end to this mystery, gang.

[xsockmonkeyx]

This deck is strange for a combo deck as it has a decent game against thresh and has problems with Goblins. You can fight through thresh's counters and plows/bolts (vial is the shit here) but the deck has issues against Mogg Fanatic, GPI, Siege-Gang, and 4x Goblemonic Tutor. Oh and they have Aether Vial too :/ A neat play I came up with is to play out a Narcomoeba before comboing and leading with En-Kor. That way if the try to shoot your en-kor you can redirect it to the moeba, effectively nullifying a removal piece.

You smash other combo, except for busted TES shenannegins or a an EtW you didnt prepare for. Control is more dependant on what color they are running, blue or black. The deck fares better against blue control like Landstill, but can have problems against Deadguy/Truffle/Anythingwithhymntotourach.dec

Eladamri's Call>Sylvan Tutor>Living Wish. The instant speed is much more relevant than the WG casting cost.

[ReAnimated]

As of now my board is looking like

4x Duress
4x Abeyance
1x Crippling Fatigue
1x Ray of Revalation

5x Open Slots

for those last 5 slots theres many options avalible to me such as

Option 1. 4 Lotv and 1 Anicent grudge

This helps vs the mirror and ichorid and any other graveyard based deck. This seems liek the right call for my metagame , but im trying to have an open mind so i can be prepared for any meta.

Option 2. 3 Bounce spells ( Probably E.truth ) 1 Therapy and 1 Ancient Grudge

This option helps agianst the hate brought in agianst you ( Lotv, Needle , and to a lesser extent Crypt ). The therapy also improves your already wonderful combo M/U so Idk about this one.

Option 3. 2 Krosan Grip and 3 Stifle

This helps aginst the hate ( Look in option 2 ) as well as random artifacts ( Top , Opposing Vials , and other junks ). Stifles help vs storm combo , which once agian is already a good M/U for you.

Option 4. A mix of Bounce/Anti-Hate/Hate agianst other decks.

Idk about this one so much because i really wouldn't want to play with less than 3 bounce spells which would only leave me with either 2 Lotv or Option 2. Maybe Something like 3 Echoing Truth and 2 Krosan Girp.

Option 5. The man plan

Something like flash played during G2 brining in efficent fatties i.e Negator , Serendib , Goyf. I haven't tested this just a tought.

What do you guys think? :smile:

[from Cairo]

Ideally, I would think something for the Goblins match up would be a boost for the deck. Looking at the NoVa Draft results it looked like Berke's fairly run of the mill Goblin's deck was eating Breakfast.

Maybe something like 2 Moment's Peace and 3 Absolute Law. I don't know how well the mana base holds under Goblin's disruption (if having 3 mana is likely), but the ability to protect the 1/1s from Fanatic/Gempalm seems good from Absolute Law and then 1 milled Moment's Peace could buy you a turn so that your un-Dragon's Breath'd Sutured Ghoul can still finish them off. If you ran 2 of Moment's Peace you may end up drawing into it too, being casted and fb'd would give you another two turns to set up the Vial or dig for a missing combo piece.

I'm not sure its the best call, its sort of mana hungry during the turns in the game where you're using most of your mana to try and dig to win out, but looking at flashback cards that could be helpful it caught my eye.

I'm currently thinking- 4 Abeyance, 3 Duress, 3 Stifle, 3 Absolute Law, 1 Crippling Fatigue, 1 Ray of Revelation

[from Cairo]

Jesse's new list from GenCon seems like a good move. Tarmogoyf in the MD for the win. I would think that helps stabilize the Goblin's match quite a bit protecting an En-Kor while Illusionist is on the stack. Only thing I didn't really understand was the inclusion of the 5th En-Kor, it seems like if anything they've gained survivability in the new design so can't see a reason why their quantity would need to be increased? I would think personally I'd be inclined to keep MD Narcomoebas at x4 and the 3rd Therapy in the SB, since Narc can atleast pitch to FOW. Thoughts?

[Elmi]

I really like Madzur's maindeck, but I wonder about Confidents and Echoing Truth in the side.

Is the CA from Confident really useful in any matchup? And why Echoing Truth? For goblin tokens? Why not play rather Engineered Explosives, which may get rid of other permanents too?

[Di]

And why Echoing Truth? For goblin tokens? Why not play rather Engineered Explosives, which may get rid of other permanents too?

Leyline of the Void.

Also happens to be good against any other hate you'd expect to see for a measly 1U.

[Elmi]

You mean multiple Leylines? Does this situation occur frequently? Because otherwise, Proctor seems better...

Have you considered playing Abeyance Maindeck? This card seems really strong in so many matchups.

[Eldariel]

You mean multiple Leylines? Does this situation occur frequently? Because otherwise, Proctor seems better...

No other solution is as versatile. Echoing Truth does EVERYTHING you just stated, Explosives's jobs, Proctor's jobs and then some (multi-Leyline for example). That's the reason bounce in general is the preferred way to solve issues in combo-decks, they're the cheapest generic answers available.

[Brushwagg]

Well I've toying around with deck for a little bit. However I'm on the fence about which kill condition to run. Both end the game with one swing. Is anyone else having this problem?? Currently I'm running the Kiki Hauser win.

[Occam]

Well I've toying around with deck for a little bit. However I'm on the fence about which kill condition to run. Both end the game with one swing. Is anyone else having this problem?? Currently I'm running the Kiki Hauser win.

If I were running vial I would go with the ghoul kill, simply because dreadnoughts are a decent secondary kill. Kiki kill simply scoops to extract.

[calosso]

If I were running vial I would go with the ghoul kill, simply because dreadnoughts are a decent secondary kill. Kiki kill simply scoops to extract.

You are actually completely wrong on two fronts. One the ghoul combo uses goyf, second extract does not beat the kiki combo by any means. If they hit returns, they tutor up both creatures and vial them in and win that way, or they just attack in the air while cephalid illusionist hold the ground.

[Occam]

You are actually completely wrong on two fronts. One the ghoul combo uses goyf, second extract does not beat the kiki combo by any means. If they hit returns, they tutor up both creatures and vial them in and win that way, or they just attack in the air while cephalid illusionist hold the ground.

Every single ghoul player uses goyf? I don't know, but saying that I am jumping to conclusions and yet using a generalisation?

The last I saw of the kiki combo, an extract removing either a singleton kiki piece is game, unless new changes have been made.

[calosso]

Every single ghoul player uses goyf? I don't know, but saying that I am jumping to conclusions and yet using a generalisation?

The last I saw of the kiki combo, an extract removing either a singleton kiki piece is game, unless new changes have been made.

I'm sorry, good players using the ghoul version use goyf. If you extract kiki, then like I said before you attack in the air with narcomba, sky hussar, and karmic guide.

[Brushwagg]

Extract removes Ghoul also. If you fo run into a deck running Extract they are more then they probably will have ways of dealing with Goyf and/or Naught along with the 1/1's. One thing that is kepping with Kiki version is that it doesn't scoop it up to Maze of Ith.

[calosso]

Extract removes Ghoul also. If you fo run into a deck running Extract they are more then they probably will have ways of dealing with Goyf and/or Naught along with the 1/1's. One thing that is kepping with Kiki version is that it doesn't scoop it up to Maze of Ith.

There were several factors for Max Zur losing in the top 4. 1 being that he had to mulligan many times, 2 was indeed Maze of Ith, and 3 he could not find abeyance to save his life.
Maze of It does not beat that version if they brought in abeyance.

[Occam]

I'm sorry, good players using the ghoul version use goyf. If you extract kiki, then like I said before you attack in the air with narcomba, sky hussar, and karmic guide.

No problem, since I don't run that version. I guess the people around here who use the nought version really suck then.

In any case, goyf or not, it is still arguably a better win cond than using moebas and other creatures to beat down.

[from Cairo]

Every single ghoul player uses goyf? I don't know, but saying that I am jumping to conclusions and yet using a generalisation?

The last I saw of the kiki combo, an extract removing either a singleton kiki piece is game, unless new changes have been made.

I think either way the Sutured Ghoul build has some sort of out, either through Goyf or Dreadnought, or building counters and vialing out w/e random fatty they were going to remove to Ghoul (if playing something other than Dreadnought for the fat). It's not glamorous, but I don't think a single Extract/Extirpate is game for them. The right choice is probably to go for Dread Return in this case, since if they are playing a fatty, they don't necessarily need to recur Sutured Ghoul to win. And leaving them with all the 1/1s, Return and Ghoul could still make a 12/12+ or something, so cutting them off from Dread Return is probably the right call.

For the Kiki combo it depends on the game situation and the player, but if we're talking about Extract, and they cast it before you've gone off they have the ability to pick any card in your deck. If they see Vials, Kiki-Jiki, Dread Return, and Sky Hussar, it seems like the right call would be to take Sky Hussar as its the enabler for the untapping and thus going nuts of Kiki; in which case the Breakfast player has no real beater, it would be a hard match to win out. I guess there is 3-4 Narcomeoba beats, but an opponent should be able to overcome 1/1s.

Either way I think the Goyf + Ghoul plan seems strongest since it gives the en-kors a back to lean on, while resolving Illusionist. It also provides a pseudo answer to Meddling Mage on a combo piece or a removed from game Dread Return, since you have Worldly's and Eladamri's Calls you can get 2-3 Goyf out and try to overpower them.

[zulander]

extract does not beat the kiki combo by any means. If they hit returns, they tutor up both creatures and vial them in and win that way, or they just attack in the air while cephalid illusionist hold the ground.

1. Assuming they haven't abeyenced, you extract karmic guide in response to the dread return on the guide on the stack, that way they still have to sac 3 guys and get nothing.

2. How do you tutor them up if they're in your GY? Last I checked you had to mill them before going off... And even if you do get both in play, since when have 2 creatures in play = GG for you? Stop acting like this format doesn't play burn.

[calosso]

1. You extract kiki in response to the dread return on the stack, that way they still have to sac 3 guys.

2. How do you tutor them up if they're in your GY? Last I checked you had to mill them before going off... And even if you do get both in play, since when have 2 creatures in play = GG for you? Stop acting like this format doesn't play burn.

Um extract is a sorcery, so if they hit returns you can tutor kiki and hussar and vial them in,n now unless you have downs then you should know that makes infinite 4/3 hasters. The only relevant deck in the format that plays bolt is threshhold. (GAGOMY SUCKS)

Goblins does play fanatic and gempalm which is considered burn, but they do not play extract.

[zulander]

It's ok, I totally thought they meant extirpate but w/e lulz.

[thefreakaccident]

Why is this still in N&D, it has done very well recently and should therefore be moved into the established forums.

that is all.

[Elmi]

Do you often feel the need for the 2 Calls? Wouldn't 2 Abeyances be better as a maindeck slot? I almost always side them in to replace the Calls.

I don't like those 2x Underground Seas too, wouldn't one be enough? I hate having one of them in my opening hand. And when do you bring the confidents in? In almost any match, it seems there're always better things to bring in (with few slots available).

[Xenocide]

What are the current lists for this deck (both kills), the first post doesn't seem to have been updated in awhile.
-Xeno

[from Cairo]

What are the current lists for this deck (both kills), the first post doesn't seem to have been updated in awhile.
-Xeno

KIKI Version
From NoVA Legacy Draft 8/4/07

3rd: Brian Diefendorf

4 Force of will
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Worldy tutor
4 Aether vial
3 Daze
2 Cabal therapy
2 Eldarmari's call
1 Dread return

4 Cephalid illusionist
4 Nomads en-kor
3 Nacromeoba
1 Sterm proctar
1 Kiki-jiki
1 Karmic guide
1 Sky hussor

4 Flooded strand
4 Polluted delta
3 Tundra
3 Tropical island
2 Underground sea
1 Island

Ghoul Version
Gen Con 8/17/07

3rd: Jesse Hatfield

4 Force of will
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Worldy tutor
4 Aether vial
2 Cabal therapy
2 Eladamri's call
1 Dread return
1 Dragon breath

4 Cephalid illusionist
4 Nomads en-kor
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Narcomoeba
1 Shaman en-kor
1 Sutured ghoul

4 Flooded strand
4 Polluted delta
4 Tundra
3 Tropical island
2 Underground sea

[arsenalpow]

Is there any replacement for a Shaman En-Kor for the gen con list? Saw warrior en-kor but its WW...can't find the stupid shaman to save my life

[zulander]

Shaman is there for resiliency, if you can't find one just run 4 nomads.

[Windux]

Shaman is also good against Pithing Needle and against Chalice 1.

[Mad Zur]

My report from the Championship is up here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6736) along with some explanations of the changes we've made to our list.

The fourth Nomads just makes the deck a little more consistent, and makes its best draws more likely. Most of the time, you want to draw one combo piece so you can tutor for the other and win. Having nine combo pieces makes that (as well as the less likely turn two win) happen more often. Shaman is great because it gets around Needle and Chalice. It also has two toughness, which is sometimes important against Goblins.

[Windux]

Nice Report and gratz to the finish :)

Would you tell us, how you are boarding with your Sideboard?

For example: Are you boarding Confidants against "Heavy Control" (Landstill, mono Blue) and board out the Worldly Tutors for having Cardadvantage instead of havin the chance for a fast win?

[frogboy]

I'm looking for solutions to the problem presented by clock + permission + disruption of the sorts of Meddling Mage, Needle, EE, Crypt, and other associated goodies one might find in a Threshold deck or a Countersliver deck. Anyone have any bright ideas?

[Windux]

I'm looking for solutions to the problem presented by clock + permission + disruption of the sorts of Meddling Mage, Needle, EE, Crypt, and other associated goodies one might find in a Threshold deck or a Countersliver deck. Anyone have any bright ideas?
Against EE and Crypt you have Abeyance, against Mage you have Crippling Fatigue, Needle -> Shaman en-Kor.

Also you have Tarmogoyfs as beater and blocker, Echoing Truth as allround bounce and Force of Will.

[Adan]

Strange. How can the Sutured ghoul make lethal damage when you only got 0/1, 1/1 and 1/2 creatures in your graveyard? Tarmogoyfs are treated as 0/1 creatures when in graveyard, aren't they?

edit: I'm getting more and more retarded, just forgive me my brainfarts xD

[diffy]

Strange. How can the Sutured ghoul make lethal damage when you only got 0/1, 1/1 and 1/2 creatures in your graveyard? Tarmogoyfs are treated as 0/1 creatures when in graveyard, aren't they?

This was allready adressed: (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=152992&postcount=106)



From the comp rules.

208.2. Some creature cards have power and/or toughness represented by a * instead of a number. The object has a characteristic-defining ability that sets its power and/or toughness according to some stated condition. This ability functions in all zones.


After milling your deck you have Creatures, Instants, Lands, Artifacts (Aether Vial) one Enchantment (Dragon Breath) and a Sorcery (Portent) in your graveyard which makes the Tarmogoyfs 6/7s.
You now remove the Goyfs and if need be some more random critters for Sutured Ghoul's trigger which turns it into an decent sized beater. It now comes into play and triggers Dragon Breath which then enchants it giving it haste.

[Nightmare]

Has there been an official statement regarding this yet? I know there is still some disagreement on whether the Sutured Ghoul checks only at the time of removal, or if it checks constantly. Basically, the argument was whether it works like it did in the Judgement FAQ - which is the way Dracoplasm works with a very similar effect - or if it works the way judges seem to be ruling, that it continuously checks. This would mean that a single Goyf could be Pull From Eternitied to kill the Ghoul if it's the only card removed to it. Last I knew, it was working its way up the chain for an OR. Have you heard anything?


This is how Sutured Ghoul works, as Offical as it gets. The information from the Judgement FAQ is not correct. For whatever reason WotC does not update old FAQs when rules change, so over time they may become obsolete. (The Ice Age FAQ speaks of making a counterspell target itself, the Saviors FAQ says that Evermind can't be played under any circumstances).

Dracoplasm, on the other hand, is a bit messy. As worded it doesn't exactly "work." This will be fixed with the next oracle update. Dracoplasm does have it's p/t locked in when it comes into play, and that functionality will likely be maintained in it's new wording.

As for "working it's way up the chain," I can tell you that I myself am pretty high up on that chain. I do make mistakes, sure, and will be certain to correct and acknowledge those mistakes as soon as I become aware of them. Also I will acknowledge it in the thread if for some reason I'm waiting on some other source for an answer (search through previous posts I've made and you can see where I've done that). But absent either of those, you may rest assured that my answers, when it comes to rules, are Official.


Translation: If you crypt a player after the Ghoul is in play (assuming your yard is empty, and they only removed Goyfs), it becomes a 4/8. Sutured Ghoul is now ruled to be "always checking" his p/t.

[Adan]

Why is this deck still in the New and Developmental Forum? It is on it's best way to the best deck in the format, especially now where you can be even more flexible with the Goyfs, making this deck a solid Aggrocontrol with a auto-win combo.

[xycsoscyx]

Translation: If you crypt a player after the Ghoul is in play (assuming your yard is empty, and they only removed Goyfs), it becomes a 4/8. Sutured Ghoul is now ruled to be "always checking" his p/t.

Is this for certain? I'm only asking because I've read a whole lot of back and forth on the matter. I never heard any type of final "official" ruling on this, so I thought it was still up in the air?

[zulander]

Why is this deck still in the New and Developmental Forum? It is on it's best way to the best deck in the format, especially now where you can be even more flexible with the Goyfs, making this deck a solid Aggrocontrol with a auto-win combo.

It's going to be moved to the DTB forums once the new month rolls around.

[Bane of the Living]

Ive been testing against 3c goblins with maindeck Swords to Plowshares and the deck still seems like a bye. Goblins just cant get past the road block that is tarmagoyf before the deck assembles its combo. Sometimes its just the goyfs that gobs will lose too and it seems as though the right play is to tutor for additional copies of him.

Theres no doubt in my mind this deck just came out of left field and snatched the best deck in the format title.

Im testing Pact of Negation in the sb right now against decks with shit tons of counterspells. So far Im satisfied but its still on par with Bob.

[Zilla]

Why is this deck still in the New and Developmental Forum?
Questions of this kind should be addressed via PM to the mod staff rather than in the deck thread itself. However, I'll answer the question in this case:

1. Changes to the Decks to Beat Forum are always made on the first of the month, based on tournament data up to that date. The deck will likely be moved to that forum come Sep. 1.

2. This thread doesn't meet Established Decks Forum requirements. It does not have a thorough explanation of strategy, card choices, and matchup analysis in the opening post. Ewok made this thread in a hurry directly following its success in Annandale. A more thorough writeup will be required before it can be moved.

[Mad Zur]

Here are the board plans we worked out for Goblins, Threshold, and Belcher. It isn't an extensive list, but one of these will usually provide a good starting point when approaching a similar matchup.

*****:
-4 Worldly Tutor
-4 Portent
-1 Aether Vial
-1 Nomads en-Kor

+4 Duress
+3 Dark Confidant
+1 Stern Proctor (if you expect Counterbalance or other permanents)
+1 Crippling Fatigue (if you expect Meddling Mage)
+1-3 Abeyance (depending on which of the above you bring in)

You're going to have to fight an attrition war in this matchup, so the card disadvantage of Wordly Tutor is a problem. Vial is great, but drawing multiples makes you vulnerable to Pithing Needle. Nomads comes out because assembling the combo quickly isn't a priority. Boarding out manipulation is unfortunate, but Portent is really the only other flexible slot. All the cards coming in help fight through either counters or other hate.

Goblins:
-2 Eladamri's Call
-2 Portent
-1 Cabal Therapy

+4 Abeyance
+1 Stern Proctor

Abeyance is amazing in this matchup to get through Fanatic, Gempalm, Pyrokinesis, and a lot of potential sideboard hate. Proctor comes in in case they have some sort of hate in artifact/enchantment form, and can be left out if you know they don't. There really isn't much room againt Goblins, since you still need to go off quickly and reliably. Call is difficult on mana and fairly slow, and Therapy is unnecessary because they won't have anything that stops the Ghoul once you go off (you keep one in case you need to discard part of the combo). If they're playing white, the Therapy should probably stay. Portent is, again, the only flexible slot beyond those.

Belcher
-4 Aether Vial
-2 Portent
-2 Eladamri's Call
-1 Shaman en-Kor
-1 Narcomoeba

+4 Duress
+4 Abeyance
+2 Echoing Truth

Narcomoeba can come out here because you don't need to Therapy them when you go off, but Therapy is still a good card to draw. Vial is unnecessary. Call and Shaman,the more expensive combo cards, can be trimmed for more disruption, but you still need most of your combo, so a pair of Portents have to be cut as well.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Goblins:
-2 Eladamri's Call
-2 Portent
-1 Cabal Therapy

+4 Abeyance
+1 Stern Proctor


Wow i think it is realy techy to board in 4 abeyance against goblins!
But is there some reason to not play Pithing needl in the board?
It is proactive against crypts and does help against so many other things...

[Bane of the Living]

But abeyance stops everything not just the Crypt in play. It deals with a smug Pernicious Deed sitting on the board, Swords to Plowshares, counterspells, and all the other janky cards people will bring in to stop you.

And it cantrips!!

[SuckerPunch]

I'm a UGW thresh player, never once ran into this deck, not really sure how it works.

I keep hearing that thresh is the same as this deck except for a few commons.

Yet, the build on here plays black and 2 Underground Seas.

So I'm wondering, is the black splash in this deck absolutely essential or would the combo work fine without playing black?

If I could play the deck without Underground Seas, I would love to make a transformational board so that my thresh deck transforms into this deck.

Please tell me this is possible and make my day. :)

And I know this is probably asking for a lot, but can any of the veterans suggest the 15 cards to use for the transformational sideboard so I could try this out? Thank you.

[from Cairo]

I'm a UGW thresh player, never once ran into this deck, not really sure how it works.

I keep hearing that thresh is the same as this deck except for a few commons.

Yet, the build on here plays black and 2 Underground Seas.

So I'm wondering, is the black splash in this deck absolutely essential or would the combo work fine without playing black?

If I could play the deck without Underground Seas, I would love to make a transformational board so that my thresh deck transforms into this deck.

Please tell me this is possible and make my day. :)

There's about 20-25 cards different between optimal main boards of Thresh and Cephalid Breakfast, so you would need to be running some weird sub-par cards in the deck that would fit into both decks ok. For instance cutting Cabal Therapy and Eladamari's Calls for Dazes and Serum Visions or something, clearly it hurts the Breakfast combo, but it helps the deck function as Thresh

I wouldn't really suggest it, but you could try something like...

4 Force of will
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Serum Visions
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Predict
3 Daze
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Stifle

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Narcomoeba

4 Flooded strand
4 Polluted delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical island
2 Island

SB:
4 Cephalid Inkshouder
4 en-Kor
4 Worldly Tutor
1 Ghoul
1 Dread Return
1 Dragon's Breath

SBing Out:
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Predict
1 Stifle/Daze

Still leaves you playing Thresh with Narcomoeba... and it means no Cabal Therapy which sucks alot... I don't think its a really good idea, and it could probably be executed far better but that was just quick off the top of my head / looking at the lists posted.

[SuckerPunch]

Thank you for your post. Maindeck Worldy Tutorn (ie. Goyf Tutor) seems more useful than maindeck Narcomeoba.

But actually, forget about the 15 card limit. What are all the cards that I would have to run to build Cephalid Breakfast out of my UGW Thresh deck without spending a fortune?

So all this would exclude is the Underground Sea and the black splash.

What cards would I need to get to try out this deck sans U. Seas?

That would really help me, and I am sure a lot of other Thresh players intrigued by this deck, out. After that, if the deck feels right, I will then work on paring it down to 19 cards for the sideboard while maindecking all 4 Worldly Tutor.

Thank you.

[Obfuscate Freely]

It's an interesting challenge. Here's what I came up with:

//17
4x Brainstorm
4x Portent
2x Serum Visions

3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Worldly Tutor
2x Eladamri's Call

//9
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Mystic Enforcer

//17
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Counterbalance
1x Harmonic Sliver

//17
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
4x Tundra
4x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea (could be an island)

//sideboard
4x Nomads en-Kor
4x Cephalid Illusionist
1x Shaman en-Kor
2x Narcomoeba
1x Dread Return
1x Sutured Ghoul
1x Dragon Breath
1x Cabal Therapy

The Counterbalances are in the main, because the deck would otherwise be at a large disadvantage in the mirror match.

It depends on the matchup, but if you board in the Breakfast plan, I imagine you'd take out the Counterbalances, as well as the Mongooses and STPs. I'd leave the Enforcer in, as a solid auxiliary win condition.

Certainly looks cool, if nothing else.

[SuckerPunch]

Thank you. That looks sweet. But I'm confused, whats the Harmonic Sliver doing in the maindeck? H. Sliver has absolutely nothing to do with the combo right?

Shouldn't it be the second Mystic Enforcer?

It is cool. Almost certainly not better than just a standard sideboard, but still cool enough that it's worth running for fun.

[Obfuscate Freely]

In the maindeck, the Harmonic Sliver is a general utility card. Mostly, that means "an awful answer to Aether Vial," but tutorable Disenchant effects are useful in plenty of matchups. At 3cc, the card is even passable at dealing with opposing Counterbalances.

After boarding in the combo, Harmonic Sliver is a tutorable answer to hate that can stop you from going off. Crypt, Leyline, Engineered Plague, etc.

Basically, Harmonic Sliver is trying to take the places of both Pithing Needle (in Thresh) and Stern Proctor (in Breakfast). It might be terrible, but at least it helps you get more out of the tutors.

[legacyplayer0]

Harmonic Sliver is a tutor target.

The problem I have with the transfromational sideboard is that it's really hard to make a threshold deck that can turn into a breakfast deck without letting your opponent know what you're up to. The whole point of a transformational sideboard is to catch your opponent offguard, and that isn't going to happen when you pitch a Narcomoeba to FoW or Worldly Tutor for something in game one.

[SuckerPunch]

You never no. Worldly Tutoring into Goyf doesn't neccesarily mean youre runnign this. It could just be that you're a casual player who really loves Goyf. Besides, I never meant for this to be uber competitive. Just something to do for fun in casual play.

That's why the 15 card sideboard restriction isn't that big a deal. My playgroup doesn't really care if the sideboard goes up to 20 if there's a funny reason for it (we all love transformational boards).

[xsockmonkeyx]

//17
4x Brainstorm
4x Portent
2x Serum Visions

3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Worldly Tutor
2x Eladamri's Call

//9
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Mystic Enforcer

//17
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Counterbalance
1x Harmonic Sliver

//17
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
4x Tundra
4x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea (could be an island)

//sideboard
4x Nomads en-Kor
4x Cephalid Illusionist
1x Shaman en-Kor
2x Narcomoeba
1x Dread Return
1x Sutured Ghoul
1x Dragon Breath
1x Cabal Therapy


:) I came up with almost the same list but with the Combo in the main and the Thresh stuff in the sideboard.

One question I had was which matchups would you want the combo against and which matchups the thresh? I thought there would be too much overlap to make up for the fact that that one of the sides would be kinda janky.

[center425]

Has anyone tried counter/top in this yet? Seems like it would be worth a shot.

[DragoFireheart]

Counter-Top would utterly destroy not only Thresh but most other cheap low mana curve decks.

It does nothing to Ichorid though.

[Pinder]

Counter-Top would utterly destroy not only Thresh but most other cheap low mana curve decks.

It does nothing to Ichorid though.

Plus, if you ran counterbalance you could call it 'Balanced Breakfast'.

Steve Sadin won GP Columbus with a Flash deck that made use of counterbalance and a transformational sideboard. The basic strategy of the two decks in is roughly the same (gather and protect a combo until you win with it), so I can only assume that Counterbalance would be good here, too.

The only problem is finding room.

[SnakeEater]

Has anyone tried counter/top in this yet? Seems like it would be worth a shot.

Some of my friends developed a list with 3 Counterbalance + 2 Tops + 3 Confidants + 3 Daze. I think they took out all tutors and the Vials and one Portent.

In testing the version is still good against other control decks. But it looses a lot of speed.

I don't like the integration of Countebalance. The only advantage is, that the Ghoul will still be 24/28 when you remove 4 Tarmogoyfs for him and the Dragon Brath leaves the graveyard.

[Nihil Credo]

A better transformational idea might be to bring in Daru Spiritualists and a Serra Avatar and turn into Life.dec. This neutralizes most of the hate your opponents bring in (except for Needle), and taking fourty turns to actually kill your opponent isn't a big deal when you probably won game 1.

[thejack]

Is there any significant difference in the strength of the deck considering the different win conditions, kiki-jiki and ghoul?

[diffy]

Is there any significant difference in the strength of the deck considering the different win conditions, kiki-jiki and ghoul?


Both kills have different pros and cons, I'll make a start listing them (someone complete the list please if I left some out which, I am sure, I have):

Goyf'n Ghoul Kill:
+ Can hardcast Goyf (flexibility)
+ Doesn't scoop to a particular card
- Has to get rid of spot removal first
- Not so good against infinited Combos (e.g. Life or Aluren)

Kiki, Sky Hussar Kill:
+ Needs less slots (3<6) so you can pack more disruption/tutors
- The Combo Pieces are dead outside of the Combo and have to be in the graveyard/library prior to comboing out
- Scoops to randomness like Extract, Ghostly Prison or Pithing Needle

So basically one could state that the Goyf'n Ghoul kill has some added flexibility by just being able to go into the alternative aggro mode (which I do find very weak though because every deck should be able to handle some Tarmogoyfs by now just like every deck used to have to be able to handle a Goblin Lackey) at the cost of slots/room in the deck.
Basically I think it comes down to playstyle... If you like to have a backup plan, go with the Sutured Ghoul kill, if you want to go more into the Combo direction of the spectrum, go for the Kiki kill and focus onto the combo by packing more disruption/hate for hate (e.g. Stern Prospector).
I personally don't think that there is a big difference in the power level of both kills though.

[Tacosnape]

I constantly hear people referring to Sutured Ghoul as a 24/28 in the Tarmogoyf version. Is there some particular reason you can't also remove all the other creatures in your yard, such as the extra En-Kors and the guys you used to Flashback Dread Return and Cabal Therapy, so that the Ghoul's power hits 30+?

[Nightmare]

I constantly hear people referring to Sutured Ghoul as a 24/28 in the Tarmogoyf version. Is there some particular reason you can't also remove all the other creatures in your yard, such as the extra En-Kors and the guys you used to Flashback Dread Return and Cabal Therapy, so that the Ghoul's power hits 30+?

4 Tarmogoyfs @ 5/6 = 20/24

4 Illusionists = 24/28

4 En-Kors = 28/33

1 Stern Proctor = 29/35

3 Narcomoebas = 32/38

But to make the Goyfs 5/6 without using your opponent's yard, you need to keep a 1/1 in your own, which means Ghoul could be a 31/37.

[APriestOfGix]

4 Tarmogoyfs @ 5/6 = 20/24

4 Illusionists = 24/28

4 En-Kors = 28/33

1 Stern Proctor = 29/35

3 Narcomoebas = 32/38

But to make the Goyfs 5/6 without using your opponent's yard, you need to keep a 1/1 in your own, which means Ghoul could be a 31/37.

Your math dosn't work here Nightmare...


24/28

+4/4 from En-Kors is a 28/32 not a 28/33

thus, 29/34

32/37

or 31/36

[Jaynel]

I think the list runs a Shaman en-Kor, which is a 1/2. Nightmare has his math right.

[Tacosnape]

So, 30/31/32 math aside, that's exactly my point. Are people actually making Ghoul only 24/28, and why?

A lot of games, granted, it will make no difference whatsoever. But it seems like a bad habit to get into.

[Happy Gilmore]

It's an interesting challenge. Here's what I came up with:

//17
4x Brainstorm
4x Portent
2x Serum Visions

3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Worldly Tutor
2x Eladamri's Call

//9
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Mystic Enforcer

//17
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Counterbalance
1x Harmonic Sliver

//17
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
4x Tundra
4x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea (could be an island)

//sideboard
4x Nomads en-Kor
4x Cephalid Illusionist
1x Shaman en-Kor
2x Narcomoeba
1x Dread Return
1x Sutured Ghoul
1x Dragon Breath
1x Cabal Therapy

The Counterbalances are in the main, because the deck would otherwise be at a large disadvantage in the mirror match.

It depends on the matchup, but if you board in the Breakfast plan, I imagine you'd take out the Counterbalances, as well as the Mongooses and STPs. I'd leave the Enforcer in, as a solid auxiliary win condition.

Certainly looks cool, if nothing else.

An interesting challenge indead:

Cephalid Breakfast -into- Grow
4x Cephalid Illusionist
4x Nomads en-Kor
1x Shaman en-Kor

4x Tarmogoyf
3x Narcomoeba
1x Dread Return
1x Sutured Ghoul
1x Dragon Breath

4x Brainstorm
4x Portent
2x Sensei’s Divining Top
3x Worldly Tutor
1x Eladamri’s Call

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
2x Cabal Therapy

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
4x Tundra
3x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea

Sideboard
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Counterbalance
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Mystic Enforcer
1x Sensei’s Divining Top
1x Harmonic Sliver


Going from combo to agro-control makes more sense since it creates dead draws for you opponent.

The only md changes are:

-1 worldly
-1 Call
-4 Aether Vial
+4 Daze
+2 SDT


Worldly is somewhat better than EC because of its role as basically a Counterspell with CB in play.

[czeluff]

EVERYONE! Look! A new card in Lorwyn called Ponder is STRICTLY better than Portent. Any reason it'd be less desirable? Now you draw IMMEDIATELY!

http://mtgsalvation.com/lorwyn-spoiler.html#1868

cz

[Bovinious]

Well it's not STRICTLY better than Portent because Portent can target your opponent, but it probably still is better than Portent.

[calosso]

EVERYONE! Look! A new card in Lorwyn called Ponder is STRICTLY better than Portent. Any reason it'd be less desirable? Now you draw IMMEDIATELY!

http://mtgsalvation.com/lorwyn-spoiler.html#1868

cz

Be careful when you use the word strictly (yea I know Hatfields shut up) since portent allows you to dig a cards deeper and if the top 3 cards are garbage then you can shuffle and get another random card. Ponder has it's advantages but it is not strictly better.

[Kronicler]

Be careful when you use the word strictly (yea I know Hatfields shut up) since portent allows you to dig a cards deeper and if the top 3 cards are garbage then you can shuffle and get another random card. Ponder has it's advantages but it is not strictly better.

Wait... Ponder and Portent dig the same # of cards deep and both allow you to shuffle your top 3 and draw a random if those 3 were crap. The only differences between the 2 is that Portent is a slow trip while Ponder gives you the card upon resolution and Portent can target your opponent while Ponder cannot.

Kronicler

[SnakeEater]

A better transformational idea might be to bring in Daru Spiritualists and a Serra Avatar and turn into Life.dec. This neutralizes most of the hate your opponents bring in (except for Needle), and taking fourty turns to actually kill your opponent isn't a big deal when you probably won game 1.

I thought about that, too. But I think there is not enough room in this deck for the life combo. You will loose speed and consistent.

We can consider a version with 3 copies of Living Wish instead of the Calls and the 4th nomad. Then we have also acces to our sideboard with maybe some other solution like Man-O-War/Stern Proctor/Bone Shredder/Monk Realist/4th Nomad/maybe one Illusionist/ and so on for difficult situations. Maybe then it is possible to bring in the life combo.


Are people actually making Ghoul only 24/28, and why?

I don't remove only the Goyfs for the Ghoul. It was just for the example why CB can be good in this deck.

I prefer to remove as much creatures as possible. Either all or all-1, when the opponent has no creatures in his grave. Even if I don't need such a big Ghoul ftw.

@Ponder: I think I will play Ponder in this deck over Portent because you draw the card immediately. I can imagine only one situation where I targeted my opponent with my portent and shuffled his library.

[AnduYn]

I would love to create a deck that changes it's game plan dramatically!

But why do we have to make a Thresh?

My opponent is going to bring in all the graveyard hate he has:

Crypt, Leyline, etc..

And all of these cards are good against Thresh as well, so we fail in creating card disadvantage for our opponent, because he has no dead cards!

You could still go for the Man-Plan by using a SB, that looks something like this:

4 Dark Confidant
3 Duress
1 Harmonic sliver
3 Umezwa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares

You could even consider to go for the combo plan, and still side in some usefull cards like Dark Confidant or Duress.

If you expect a lot of aggro control decks, you might want to keep the Counterbalance plan alive:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Counterbalance
1 Sensei's Diving Top
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Harmonic Sliver

What do you guys think of these sideboard option?

[laststepdown]

I really can't say that Ponder is worth it over Portent. Keeping an opponent off of their business (ie make them topdeck land or whatnot) with a Tarmogoyf on board can be GG, without the combo even. I've seen the better Threshold players use this move to do the same thing. It's a preemptive Cabal Therapy when done right, and it replaces itself. I think the utility factor wins out on this arguement. I hate the fact that I've been destroyed by Portent, but to say that it doesn't work would be a lie.

[technogeek5000]

I would love to create a deck that changes it's game plan dramatically!

But why do we have to make a Thresh?

My opponent is going to bring in all the graveyard hate he has:

Crypt, Leyline, etc..

And all of these cards are good against Thresh as well, so we fail in creating card disadvantage for our opponent, because he has no dead cards!

You could still go for the Man-Plan by using a SB, that looks something like this:

4 Dark Confidant
3 Duress
1 Harmonic sliver
3 Umezwa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares

You could even consider to go for the combo plan, and still side in some usefull cards like Dark Confidant or Duress.

If you expect a lot of aggro control decks, you might want to keep the Counterbalance plan alive:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Counterbalance
1 Sensei's Diving Top
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Harmonic Sliver

What do you guys think of these sideboard option?

I agree. If you want to create dead draws for the opponent then you dont want the opponents hate to effect your transformational sideboard. I think that a man plan would be pretty strong but Anduyn the only beater your build has thats decent is goyf and since were trying to come up with a sb plan immune to gy hate then goyf doesnt count. why not serra avenger and the plethora of white beaters coupled with jitte and stp.

[Happy Gilmore]

I agree. If you want to create dead draws for the opponent then you dont want the opponents hate to effect your transformational sideboard. I think that a man plan would be pretty strong but Anduyn the only beater your build has thats decent is goyf and since were trying to come up with a sb plan immune to gy hate then goyf doesnt count. why not serra avenger and the plethora of white beaters coupled with jitte and stp.

If your worried about being crypt/layline out of the board for your transitional sideboard you can substitute Dryad for Mongoose.

Something like:
4 Quiron Dryad
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Mystic Enforcer
4 Counterbalance
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Sensei's Divining Top

Oh, and Ponder will be way way better in this deck than Portent. Going off the same turn you cast Ponder is amazing.

[lukatron2]

I was just curious. If you use the Sutured ghoul kill, can it's coming into play ability be stifled? It is triggered right?

[DarkAkuma]

I'd have to say no. Its a "As" comes into play ability. Not a "When". Just like Meddling Mage. The ability doesent use that stack, and priority isnt given until after the moment to chose and remove has passed.

[Eldariel]

However, Dragon Breath's CiPT can be Stifled so Stifle is still an issue for you when going off, thus worth Therapying given a chance.

[Pinder]

Has anyoe given any thought to squeezing in 1 MD Bridge from Below? In my experience it helps you fight removal and makes sure that you always have creatures for Dread Return even after a few Therapies. What do people think?

[Illissius]

I tried it in some of my early builds, and MWS delivered it in my opening hand every. single. time. It was quite horrible. You can pitch an extra Narcomoeba to Force, sacrifice it to Therapy, or just block with it, which makes it far more preferable to a Bridge, in my opinion.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

It seems like a win more card. The best I see it doing is allowing Therapy into Dread Return.

[DarkAkuma]

Today I played a almost xerox copy of the world champ's top 8 deck, cept for one difference. I dont have Tarmogoyf's. So i substituted 4 Jotun Grunts in their place hopeing they wouldnt suck to much. And they acctualy turned out great. There was maybe 1 time i wished it was a goyf, but several times were had it been a goyf i might have lost.

Im certainly not saying people should play it over goyf. But has anyone else tried grunts instead? If so, how did they work out. And would everyone agree that if you dont want to shell out $80-$100 for a set of goyfs on ebay, a $2 set of Grunts is the next best thing?

[MattH]

But has anyone else tried grunts instead? If so, how did they work out. And would everyone agree that if you dont want to shell out $80-$100 for a set of goyfs on ebay, a $2 set of Grunts is the next best thing?

I only own 3 Goyfs, and I've been using 1 Grunt in place of the fourth. Which works nicely with the creature tutors.

[AnduYn]

Replacing the Mongose with Dryads seems fine, but then you don't have the option to Wordly Tutor for a 1 cc creature with Counter Balance in play...

Maybe you should keep one or two 1 cc creatures in the board. I am thinking of leaving one Mongoose there, or play a single Mother of Runes.

[SuckerPunch]

I think a transformational sideboard into Landstill could work even better.

Suddenly, all the removal your opponent sided in is dead.

//Sideboard
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Standstill
3 Wrath of God
2 Swords to Plowshore
2 Innocent Blood

Obviously early and no where near optimal. Just to get your thinking.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I only own 3 Goyfs, and I've been using 1 Grunt in place of the fourth. Which works nicely with the creature tutors.

If you had the 4th Goyf would you play it? If so, would you drop the Grunt?

[MattH]

If you had the 4th Goyf would you play it? If so, would you drop the Grunt?

Yes, and yes. But Grunt is not a bad substitute at all. I could almost see sideboarding them, if the deck didn't have eight million good SB options already.

[Pinder]

Thing is, once you've dumped your entire library into your graveyard, according to most lists, Goyf becomes a 6/7 (possibly larger if they print some decent Tribal stuff in Lorwyn), so the total power of Ghoul removing 4 goyfs is 24. With 4 Grunt, you only get 16. Is this ever an issue?

[DarkAkuma]

Not Realy. After milling, and saccing creatures to Cabals and Dread Return, you have 3 Narcomebas, 4 Illusionists, 4 Nomads, and 1 Shamen that can also be removed. So counting the 4 Grunts and all those, your Ghoul can be as big as a 28/29. So even in a worst case senerio like haveing 2 grunts in your hand, and needing to direct both Therapys at your opponent, Ghoul will still be a 20/21.

So as far as removeing creatures for Ghoul is concerned, haveing Tarmogoyf over Grunt is pointless. But thats just when thinking about Ghoul. If you need to go agro on your opponant, goyf still probly beats of Grunt since he gets bigger. But some things in grunts favor are that hes just as vulnerable to the ever popular swords, but he also weakens the REALY popular goyf's on the other side of the table.

Also, a realy small consideration is that say your opponant mages or extracts your Dread Return, you can mill and stack your deck using Grunt's drawback. Probly not the most useful things, but when it acctualy comes up its kind of fun.

[Pinder]

Not Realy. After milling, and saccing creatures to Cabals and Dread Return, you have 3 Narcomebas, 4 Illusionists, 4 Nomads, and 1 Shamen that can also be removed. So counting the 4 Grunts and all those, your Ghoul can be as big as a 28/29. So even in a worst case senerio like haveing 2 grunts in your hand, and needing to direct both Therapys at your opponent, Ghoul will still be a 20/21.


Right, I didn't consider that this deck has other creatures in it.



Also, a realy small consideration is that say your opponant mages or extracts your Dread Return, you can mill and stack your deck using goyfs drawback. Probly not the most useful things, but when it acctualy comes up its kind of fun.

I'm assuming that you meant Grunt there, but that is a really nifty trick. Not sure it warrants Grunt over Tarmogoyf, but nifty all the same.

Of course, one advantage of Grunt over Goyf (aside from availability) is, now that it's been judged that Ghoul's ability checks constantly (as does Goyf's), once your Ghoul gets big he stays that way even if they have some sort of Crypt shenanigans going on in the early game.

[DarkAkuma]

Right, I didn't consider that this deck has other creatures in it.



I'm assuming that you meant Grunt there, but that is a really nifty trick. Not sure it warrants Grunt over Tarmogoyf, but nifty all the same.

Of course, one advantage of Grunt over Goyf (aside from availability) is, now that it's been judged that Ghoul's ability checks constantly (as does Goyf's), once your Ghoul gets big he stays that way even if they have some sort of Crypt shenanigans going on in the early game.

Oops. Edited it. I did mean grunt of corse.

And yea. I forgot about that with goyf-ghoul since it recently came to light. Deffinantly another good reason you may want to play Grunt instead of/in addition to goyf.

[calosso]

Oops. Edited it. I did mean grunt of corse.

And yea. I forgot about that with goyf-ghoul since it recently came to light. Deffinantly another good reason you may want to play Grunt instead of/in addition to goyf.

Grunt does absolutely nothing against breakfast except attack for 4 about twice.

[Shriekmaw]

There is no reason why you should be playing Jotun Grunt in breakfast at all. If you don't have any Tarmogoyf's then I suggest you go out and get some. They shouldn't be that hard to find since the set is fairly new and easy to get ahold of.

It's funny how many times the players in Syracuse have actually won games when we went beatdown with Tarmogoyf's.

[Pinder]

Grunt does absolutely nothing against breakfast except attack for 4 about twice.

Because Tarmogoyf does so much against Breakfast?

I'm not saying that Goyf is bad here, I'm just pointing out that there are some advantages to using Grunts if you don't have/can't get a hold of Goyfs.

[Sigar]

If you don't have any Tarmogoyf's then I suggest you go out and get some. They shouldn't be that hard to find since the set is fairly new and easy to get ahold of.


You are kidding right? Yes, you can find them, but you have to pay the BIG bucks.

[Wallace]

There is no reason why you should be playing Jotun Grunt in breakfast at all. If you don't have any Tarmogoyf's then I suggest you go out and get some. They shouldn't be that hard to find since the set is fairly new and easy to get ahold of.

It's funny how many times the players in Syracuse have actually won games when we went beatdown with Tarmogoyf's.

I lost twice to Breakfast at the DLD this weekend and both time was to the Tarm not the combo! Get Ghoyf's

[kicks_422]

Has anyone tried fitting in the Dreadnought-Stifle combo here? Dreadnought works with the Ghoul kill anyway, and Stifle is always a great card which could help against some of the hate, and makes a Dreadnought back-up plan viable since you won't always get a Vial in play.

Just throwing out some ideas. I'm still pretty sore about trading away my set of Tarmogoyfs for a set of Xantid Swarm and roughly $2, so I'm trying to find replacements for Goyf in every deck that uses him.

[Wallace]

Has anyone tried fitting in the Dreadnought-Stifle combo here? Dreadnought works with the Ghoul kill anyway, and Stifle is always a great card which could help against some of the hate, and makes a Dreadnought back-up plan viable since you won't always get a Vial in play.

Just throwing out some ideas. I'm still pretty sore about trading away my set of Tarmogoyfs for a set of Xantid Swarm and roughly $2, so I'm trying to find replacements for Goyf in every deck that uses him.

Good luck with that :wink:

This type of post is unacceptable in the DTB Forum. Please see the forum rules. ~Nightmare

[DarkAkuma]

I won several games going the beatdown route with Grunts at my local weekly 20 man tourny. So what?

These arguments for running pure goyf over 1-4 grunts are horrable.

In vegas, Goyf's instantly went to $20-$25, and EVERYONE wanted/wants 4. Some people even want 8. And no-one wants to trade them away. So their in no way "easy to get" unless you buy like 200 packs or fork over a c-note on ebay. Grunts however are WAYYYYY easier to get 4 of, dont weaken the deck that much, and add more options.

I'm still not saying run 4 Grunts instead of 4 goyfs. But Grunts shouldnt be dissmissed that easy.

[calosso]

Has anyone tried fitting in the Dreadnought-Stifle combo here? Dreadnought works with the Ghoul kill anyway, and Stifle is always a great card which could help against some of the hate, and makes a Dreadnought back-up plan viable since you won't always get a Vial in play.

Just throwing out some ideas. I'm still pretty sore about trading away my set of Tarmogoyfs for a set of Xantid Swarm and roughly $2, so I'm trying to find replacements for Goyf in every deck that uses him.

in the original version it ran 2 dreadnaughts, and you could tutor both of them up and have to resolve 1 and the in response vial in the other dreadnaught to keep the other alive. Obviously goyf is a stronger alternative bad.

People Grunt sucks, pay 15 dollars for goyf and start winning games.

[someone_unimportant]

Heh, Goyf for 15 dollars, riiiiight. Dunno about where you live, but in my neck of the woods goyfs go for $25. It seems to me that Grunt is a fine alternative. They get shot by the same removal, and while maybe grunt is less permanent, people have been running suboptimal decks for decades due to availabiltiy. I've seen plenty of people play Shocklands before Duals before, and I equate this to roughly the same thing.

[mikekelley]

Would people try to play this without the right dual lands?

No.

So why try to play it without the right creatures?

Harden up, people. I used to bitch about money but I got set straight- this isn't the place to bitch about money, if you want to be competitive in the format you have to throw down the bills.

[diffy]

Goyf... Grunt...


I do believe that Tarmogoyf is the better beatdown/manplan for this deck... and it's always nice to have an alternative when your combo fizled or you're facing to much hate, but you do have to say that there are some pros for the Grunt too... and you also have to acknowledge that creature combat is a very weak way to win if you don't build your deck around it (I mean now like everybody should be able to handle some assortment of Tarmogoyfs and 1/1s).

First of all, i actually had to check and this deck only splashes green for the Goyf and Worldly Tutor, both strong components to the deck, but you'd be sure to find a replacement for them and replace Goyf with Grunt and just cut green altogether and go Uwb with a stronger Mana Base.

Taking Mr. Nightmare's last list (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=22948) from the article (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14715.html) you could go something like:

-3 Tropical Island (http://magiccards.info/al/en/293.html)
-4 Tarmogyof (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/153.html)
-3 Worldly Tutor (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/153.html)
+1 Tundra (http://magiccards.info/al/en/294.html)
+2 Underground Sea (http://magiccards.info/al/en/295.html)
+4 Jötun Grunt (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/8.html)
+1 Lim-Dul's Vault (http://magiccards.info/ai/en/192.html) (Worldly Tutor replacement)
+1 Portent (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/90.html)/Ponder (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56754&stc=1&d=1189205507) or even Grim Tutor (http://magiccards.info/st/en/79.html)* (Worldly Tutor replacement)
+1 Abeyance (http://magiccards.info/wl/en/117.html) (The deck gets slower so you want more protection)

In the Sideboard you could go:

-3 Pernicious Deed (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/114.html)
-3 Krosan Grip (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/202.html)
-1 Abeyance (http://magiccards.info/wl/en/117.html)
+4 Dark Confidant (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/81.html)
+3 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)

Sacrifising your Creatures in play to Dread Return and Cabal Therapy would still give you the theoretic possibility to make your Ghoul a:

4* 4/4 = 16/16 (4 Jötun Grunt)
11* 1/1 = 27/27 (4 Nomad en-kor, 3 Narcomoeba, 4 Cephalid Illusionist)
1* 1/2 = 28/29 (1 Shaman en-kor)

Which still should be about enough to win most of your Legacy matches.

So please, everybody just stop flaming/bashing around on people who don't want to invest into Tarmogoyfs or just can't get hold of them... which isn't that easy because in my environment as an example although Tarmogoyfs are on the market for around 15€ (20.69$ (http://www.x-rates.com/calculator.html)) people don't want to sell them and only trade them against some of the old dual lands... I can tell you it was hard as hell to get my second playset even with about 16-20 Goyfs floating around because:
Goyfless Breakfast is a possibility! and should maybe even be looked into more deeply than my first rough suggestion...

Some food for thought for the people who want to continue investigating into that direction:

You'd probably want to add in a huge more protection turning the archetype into a Combo Control deck like Aluren (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2599) because you take away a lot of speed and ease to assemble the combo.
Possible inclusions for this direction would be Counterbalance (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/31.html)/Sensei's Divining Top (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/268.html) or Intuition (http://magiccards.info/jr/en/8.html) with more Cabal Therapies (http://magiccards.info/fnmp/en/60.html) and Duress (http://magiccards.info/us/en/132.html)es.
If you go the Intuition route, you'd probably want to cut the Combo Pieces down to 3 each (1 Nomads en-kor (http://magiccards.info/sh/en/109.html), 1 Shaman en-kor (http://magiccards.info/sh/en/115.html), 1 Shuko (http://magiccards.info/bok/en/159.html), 3 Cephalid Illusionist (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/28.html)) making room for 3 Intuition (http://magiccards.info/jr/en/8.html)s. You now could cut the Aether Vials (you arn't looking to be fast and protected from counters anymore) to add 2 Abeyance (http://magiccards.info/wl/en/117.html)s and 2 Duress (http://magiccards.info/us/en/132.html)es.
Now to make everyone happy, you'd just have to find room for Counter/Top.. I'm going to come back to that later probably if someone is interested.

Oh yeah, I forgott to mention the largest pro of cutting green and adding CounterTop... You can call your deck Balanced Breakfast. Awesome!

So far, I hope that I could make myself clear enough which isn't obvious as a non natural speaker and being half asleep.

*Wait a sec, didn't I talk about budget just right now? Uhm... basically that suggestion is for the people looking for a way to innovate onto the archetype. If budget is of concern for you, just stick with Portent (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/90.html)/Ponder (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56754&stc=1&d=1189205507)

[TheRock]

You can almost effortlessly play this deck with painlands and Gemstone Mines as long as you keep Force of Will intact. Aggro isn't that big of a concern anyway.

You would lose Daze unless you did run a few duals and fetches, but not having Daze isn't the end of the world. Heck, you could always just go back to running Kiki, Hussar, and Guide since they cost even less money than Grunts and just run a different bounce spell to stop Needle.

This "Tarmogoyf is WOWOOOWOWOWOW" stuff is really getting annoying. If you don't want to spend a lot of money, then don't - just learn how to build decks with what you can get.

[xsockmonkeyx]

You can almost effortlessly play this deck with painlands and Gemstone Mines as long as you keep Force of Will intact. Aggro isn't that big of a concern anyway.

You would lose Daze unless you did run a few duals and fetches, but not having Daze isn't the end of the world. Heck, you could always just go back to running Kiki, Hussar, and Guide since they cost even less than Grunts and just run a different bounce spell to stop Needle.

You would also lose Brainstorm/Fetch which is also really nice.

[TheRock]

You would also lose Brainstorm/Fetch which is also really nice.

Yes you do, but it's not like you would lose Brainstorm altogether.

Worldly Tutor, Eladamri's Call, and Portent/Ponder all can shuffle your library. You would probably have quite a few less shuffle effects, but it's not like you have none.

Besides, Tutor and Call are instants.

EDIT: If you choose to go outside of green, then you still have Lim-Dul's Vault. An instant that still gets rid of the cards and can find just about anything.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Thing is Brainstorm/Fetch is more important to this deck than most. This deck really likes to shuffle combo pieces, extra moebas and sometimes therapies back.

Ive tried a 3 color version of this deck, Uwb, with fetches. I was really good at pushing through the combo but had problems finding combo pieces and would often come up a couple turns short.

[Blaukreuz]

hm, but i never liked the 4color base. (please stop talking about budget in the DTB forum :wink: )

So which color to cut?

green: we would loose steve mcqueen and the tutor (could be: j&#246;tun grunt + lim dul's vault)

black: we would loose the ability to hardcast therapy + the nice crippling fatigue sideboard option + lim dul's vault (could be green tutors) + other sideboard stuff

white: we would loose one combopiece (but it could be Shuko) and abeyance


Or just staying on 4 colors?

[thefreakaccident]

If you can find equal alternatives in the colors that you are already running, I would suggest dropping a color... makes the base a little more stable, but this deck is already pretty good, I don't know why you would want to change it.

[bigbear102]

If you are going to cut a color, cutting white would be a horrible idea. Losing Vial and making the instant part of the combo sorcery speed does not seem like a good idea.

I really don't think that cutting a color is the right way to go. Dropping green leaves you with 1 reliable tutor, and dropping black takes therapy and vault out of the question. I think the deck is just too inconsistent without all of the colors. Also, fetches are extremely important for shuffling, and growing goyfs.

[Citrus-God]

If you are going to cut a color, cutting white would be a horrible idea. Losing Vial and making the instant part of the combo sorcery speed does not seem like a good idea.

I really don't think that cutting a color is the right way to go. Dropping green leaves you with 1 reliable tutor, and dropping black takes therapy and vault out of the question. I think the deck is just too inconsistent without all of the colors. Also, fetches are extremely important for shuffling, and growing goyfs.

Personally, I think adding a Savannah would be the right decision here. If you think about it, most Threshold lists only use 16 Blue Sources and the one basic land. I believe that Basic land in this deck should be a Savannah. I'm sure you can do something like

-1 Polluted Delta

+1 Windswept Heath
+1 Savananah


Everytime I play this deck, I always wished I could fetch out Savannah just so I get mana for both the nomads and the mana nesessary for the tutors for Illusionists.

[SnakeEater]

I really don't think that cutting a color is the right way to go. Dropping green leaves you with 1 reliable tutor, and dropping black takes therapy and vault out of the question. I think the deck is just too inconsistent without all of the colors. Also, fetches are extremely important for shuffling, and growing goyfs.
I think the same way like bigbear102. The deck is very solid to play. I wouldn't cut any color.

But I also thougt about workover the mana base to have 2nd turn all colors available. After boarding it is very important to play 1st turn Duress or Cabal Therapy if you want to disrupt your opponent. Savannah was my first idea too, but then I mentioned that a Scrubland works better with those 8 Fetches without changing them.

Maybe a basic (or two) is a good choice for this deck. I played some tournaments without them and once scooped to a Magus of the Moon because I boarded out the Vials. And don't forget the Wastelands. They can really hurt you by taking the vulnerable color.

[Nightmare]

If I were going to add an off-colored dual, it would be a Bayou. More than any other combination of tricks, I want to be able to Turn 1 Therapy, upkeep of turn 2 Worldly. I won't add one, but that's what I would do if I were going to.

[Hoojo]

I tried to do a search, but he's much too popular. Has anyone considered Meddling Mage in the sideboard with Cephalid Breakfast? Two mana in your main phase seems about par for disruption, and naming the card you know your opponent sided in before forcing a combo through might be strong enough, plus, he pitches to Force of Will.

[Amoeba-]

How is Cephalid Breakfast superior to Dancing Ghoul? I really don't see, it. Dancing Ghould is much more compact of a combo and has a considerable amount of disruption. Could someone explain this?

[Benie Bederios]

How is Cephalid Breakfast superior to Dancing Ghoul? I really don't see, it. Dancing Ghould is much more compact of a combo and has a considerable amount of disruption. Could someone explain this?

Dancing Ghoul costs 3BB and Cephalid Breakfast 1UW. The combo of Dancing Ghoul isn't that compact either and most cards are dead outside the combo. And Cephalid can go aggro / control with Tarmogoyf. The final thing Cephalid Breakfast the game wins when it ensembles it's combo. With Dancing Ghoul you tap out( normally) to play Buried Alive. After that the opponent gets a whole turn to get those creatures out of the Graveyard. With Breakfast it's easier to Abeyance and after that just win and be imuun for active Tormod's Crypts, Deeds( allthough Ghoul is also immuun for Deed:tongue:), Extirpate, counters and removal.

BB

[Blaukreuz]

i'm quite often colorscrewed, what do you guys think about city of brass replacing a few duals?

[Lego]

For what it's worth, I T8ed the 4 Underground Sea tournament in Hadley with a sub-optimal build. I played the Gencon version with 3 Jotun Grunt and 1 Tarmogoyf, and Harmonic Sliver over Stern Proctor in the board. I couldn't find the Stern Proctor, but I did get to side in Harmonic Sliver against Slivers :)

My only losses (both in Swiss and T8) all day were to Goblins. Incidentally, Goblins with maindeck Tormod's Crypt is not a very good matchup for this deck (although I made a mistake in T8, and should have won. Live and learn :)

[technogeek5000]

I started testing this deck on MWS. I dont use vial or eledamri's call in my list. Is my list optimal for the current, or post lorwyn metagame.

8 fetches
4 tundra
4 tropics
2 savannah

COMBO:
4 cephalid illusionist
4 Nomads
1 shaman
1 dread return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon breath
3 Narcomoeba

Creatures:
4 tarmogoyf

Control:
4 Force
3 Daze
2 Cabal therapy

Search/draw:
4 Worldly tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
2 Serum visions

Obviously when lorwyn comes out portent gets replaced by ponder and serum visions gets replaced by 2 portents. What about a sideboard. I know this deck runs krosan grips but i dont like them to much. Suggestions.

[calosso]

I started testing this deck on MWS. I dont use vial or eledamri's call in my list. Is my list optimal for the current, or post lorwyn metagame.

8 fetches
4 tundra
4 tropics
2 savannah

COMBO:
4 cephalid illusionist
4 Nomads
1 shaman
1 dread return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon breath
3 Narcomoeba

Creatures:
4 tarmogoyf

Control:
4 Force
3 Daze
2 Cabal therapy

Search/draw:
4 Worldly tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
2 Serum visions

Obviously when lorwyn comes out portent gets replaced by ponder and serum visions gets replaced by 2 portents. What about a sideboard. I know this deck runs krosan grips but i dont like them to much. Suggestions.

Why whould you cut vial? That seems like the dumbest thing I have ever read. It helps you protect your combo and and forces your opponent to focus of dread return. Serum visions seems worse than call. I would rather have call to find goyfs, or the other 2 combo pieces.

[diffy]

Is my list optimal for the current, or post lorwyn metagame?


Read this article (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14715.html) first before starting to play Cephalid Breakfast. It's very neat and gives a good first overview over how to play/build the deck.

First of all, you really want to replace those Savannahs with Underground Seas... There's nothing like being able to cast the Cabal Therapies pre-combo.

-2 Savannah
+2 Underground Sea

Then, all you really need are 17 lands, so you basically can cut one to open up slots for other more important things.

-1 Tropical Island
-1 Tundra
+1 Underground Sea

Next up, I'd loose those Dazes. Allthough they are quite good in the early game, you really want to ramp up to 5 mana (Protection + Cephalid Illusionist + Nomads en-Kor) as quickly as anyhow possible... Also, add in AEther Vial as it makes up for the loss of the softcounter, speeds the deck up and faciliates neat tricks.

-3 Daze
+4 AEther Vial

Also, there are better things than Portent/Serum Visions for a Combo deck. It's not like we need the minimal Card Quality, we need raw turoring power and good protection.

-4 Portent
-2 Serum Visions
-1 Worldly Tutor
+3 Lim-Dul's Vault (http://magiccards.info/ai/en/192.html)
+2 Abeyance (http://magiccards.info/wl/en/117.html)
+1 Cabal Therapy
+1 Echoing Truth (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/21.html)

The additional Cabal Therapy and the Abeyances are there to be played before comboing out basically making you bullet proof. Lim-Dul's Vault is just retardet in a 2 card combo deck basically spelling 'pay up to 5 life: You win the game'. The lone echoing Truth is there for problematic permanents like Solitary Confinement which you could encounter preboard. It's chosen over alternatives like Stern Proctor (http://magiccards.info/us/en/99.html) because it's more broadly usable (like bouncing a Tarmogoyf with lethal damage back to the hand, or like countering Empty the Warrens).

Then in your sideboard you'd want something like:

2 Abeyance
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Crippling Fatigue (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/58.html)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Quirion Dryad
1 Duress

The Abeyances basically come in against anything with Countermagic/Tormods Crypt.
The Pernicious Deeds are your trum against hate. You basically switch into a combo-contol deck postboard, much like Aluren. You just let your opponent play his/her hate and then blow up the board. Deed is also brought in to buy you time against ********/Empty the Warrens and the like.
The Crippling Fatigue is anti Meddling Mage tech.
The Dark Confidants/Duress are there to come in against slow control and/or to complement the man plan.

Hope that was of some help.

[FredMaster]

One short question:
Is this deck going to play "Thoughtseize" after Lorwyn's out - by cutting duress?

[laststepdown]

As Thoughtsieze can be Misdirected, and Ponder does not mess with the opponent's draw step (vital vs. other combo) I do not see either of the two mentioned new cards being played in the long term after Lorwyn is released. Not that they aren't good cards...

[Mordenkain]

As Thoughtsieze can be Misdirected...

Then you gotta ask yourself the following questions:

#1 How often do you face misdirection?
#2 When you face them, how often will they be used on Thoughtseize and not FoW, StP, etc.?
#3 Would you rather run the not run the risk of being misdirected than playing a stricly better duress that also happens to nap creatures?

If you ask me, these questions have rather obvious answers.

[Kronicler]

I agree 100% with Mordenkain and I think similar logic can be applied to Ponder. How often is messing with an opponents topdeck going to win you the game vs using it on yourself and getting your combo piece a turn earlier? Once again, I believe this question has an obvious answer and that both Ponder and Thoughtseize will see play in Breakfast long after the release of lorwyn.

Kronicler

[Nightmare]

Stay on-Topic, people.

[strathe.]

Stay on-Topic, people.


Complaints about moderation should be PMed to a mod.

-PR

[WiLdFiRe]

I have to ask - Why is Crippling Fatigue in the SB of this deck? Surely it's better to name Cephalid Illusionist with Mage over Dread Return making Fatigue relevant?

[Di]

I have to ask - Why is Crippling Fatigue in the SB of this deck? Surely it's better to name Cephalid Illusionist with Mage over Dread Return making Fatigue relevant?

Meddling Mage is going to have a bit of trouble stopping a Cephalid Illusionist that is Vialed into play, hence why Fatigue is good.

[strathe.]

This post is inappropriate. Please view the site rules (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/announcement.php?f=25), and specifically the rules for posting in the DTB Forum (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/announcement.php?f=23), before continuing to post here. Consider this a verbal warning. ~ Nightmare

[kikkofrio]

I'm not a player of breakfast, but I like very much the version of first page with kiki-karmic-hussar.
So, considering that tarmo version don't play daze. have you ever thought to make:

-1 tutor
- 3 daze
+ 2 psicoatog
+ 1 cabal therapy or another protection
+ 1 wonder

so we can have a second kill alternative to hussar?
psico make me discard eventually cards of the combo and take the attention of opponent's pithing needle, for the freedom of vial and nomads.

or

- 2 call
+ 2 lim dul vault?

can be living wish useful in this deck?

[Daeniel]

I played Breakfast today in a small tournament in Italy... the meta is mostly control (Landstill, 3C version usually) and I had some problems going off. The Goyf plan is valid, but I want something better for the first match.

Since usually against Aggro we have no problem, even with a little life loss, I would like to try the following version:

// Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
3 Narcomoeba
1 Echoing Truth
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Worldly Tutor
4 Brainstorm

// Combo
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon Breath
4 Nomads en-Kor
1 Dread Return
1 Shaman en-Kor
4 Cephalid Illusionist

// Land
1 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

// Sideboard:
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 Stifle
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Crippling Fatigue
SB: 1 Stern Proctor
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Extirpate

The Confidant should give more draws than Portent, and can be sacrificed with the Therapy for better attrition; what do you think? Advice on the side? Please keep in mind that the meta here in Italy is quite different (almost no combo, some aggro but more control...), so don't be too overzealous to criticize! :wink:

[strathe.]

This post is inappropriate. Please view the site rules (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/announcement.php?f=25), and specifically the rules for posting in the DTB Forum (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/announcement.php?f=23), before continuing to post here. Consider this a verbal warning. ~ Nightmare

Please point out to me where questioning a moderators post directing discussion away from the benefits of specific cards in a deck is prohibited.

If we ask that you don't do something, that's what we mean. - Bardo

So far, you're three for three on red-text moderation in your posts. Realize that you are doing something wrong, and hopefully this trend will end. ~ Nightmare

[Ophidian]

I played Breakfast today in a small tournament in Italy... the meta is mostly control (Landstill, 3C version usually) and I had some problems going off. The Goyf plan is valid, but I want something better for the first match.

Since usually against Aggro we have no problem, even with a little life loss, I would like to try the following version:

// Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
3 Narcomoeba
1 Echoing Truth
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Worldly Tutor
4 Brainstorm

// Combo
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon Breath
4 Nomads en-Kor
1 Dread Return
1 Shaman en-Kor
4 Cephalid Illusionist

// Land
1 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

// Sideboard:
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 Stifle
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Crippling Fatigue
SB: 1 Stern Proctor
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Extirpate

The Confidant should give more draws than Portent, and can be sacrificed with the Therapy for better attrition; what do you think? Advice on the side? Please keep in mind that the meta here in Italy is quite different (almost no combo, some aggro but more control...), so don't be too overzealous to criticize! :wink:

I really think Abeyance is your best shot. It stops Counterspells, and any kind of Tormod's Crypt/Engineered Explosives funny business. It's on mana, and gives you a card, hard to argue with that

[Daeniel]

What you say about Abeyance is completely true, except for the fact that you can cast it just the turn in which you're going off.. now, the problem is that with all the answers that a control deck like Landstill can have it's not enough, and this is the reason for which I think that confidant can be a better choice.

Especially if Vialed out at the EOT of the opp, you gain some cards while having a tiny beater out in the field. Actually I guess that the problem here is that Landstill players include at least 3 white tutors, and having several bullets against you GY strategy can really screw you up.

Anyway, what would you suggest? Abeyance main deck? How many, and instead of what?