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Versus
08-07-2007, 03:48 PM
I just want to get a complete grasp on Umezawa's Jitte and it's abilities before I run it my deck and make a fool of myself for not knowing how to use it to it's best. So many things have changed in the past 7 years my knowledge is rusty right now. Anyway if you wouldn't mind answering a couple of questions about the card...

1-If the creature it's attached to is destroyed will the artifact stay in play?

2-If the Jitte is destroyed and it has counters can you sacrifice them in responce to use the two abilities other than the +2/+2?

3-Legend rules still apply, correct? You can't have more than one on the table at any given time? If your opp plays a Jitte (or you play another) only the first will survice.

4- The "stack" was just invented when I stopped so bear with me here. If you announce you are going to give a 3/3 creature wearing Jitte the +2/+2 abilty and in responce your opp Bolts you, the creature will die AND the counter will be removed yes? Or would the creature die after the Bolt resolves then since there is no creature to deal damage to the counter remains? Sorry, the stack thing confuses the hell out me.

This is from WOTC:

5- "If the Jitte is moved after the "+2/+2" mode is announced but before it resolves, the bonus is given to the creature that is equipped when the ability resolves."

I thought you couldn't move Jitte to another creature once it was attached?

6- "If the Jitte leaves play after the "+2/+2" mode is announced but before it resolves, the bonus is given to the creature that was most recently equipped once the ability resolves."

This is just basic rules here, but in what instance would it resolve, if it's not there?



Sorry to be a pain.

Nightmare
08-07-2007, 04:02 PM
1-If the creature it's attached to is destroyed will the artifact stay in play?

Yes. Unlike the Enchant Creatures (Now called Auras) you're used to, these aren't ever completely attached to a creature. They become unequipped, but remain in play.

2-If the Jitte is destroyed and it has counters can you sacrifice them in responce to use the two abilities other than the +2/+2?

Yes. You can utilize the -1/-1 ability or the life gain without a creature being equipped, but you need a creature equipped to give it +2/+2. All the abilities other than equipping are useable at instant speed.

3-Legend rules still apply, correct? You can't have more than one on the table at any given time? If your opp plays a Jitte (or you play another) only the first will survice.

Yes and No. The Legend rule has changed. Previously, if one person had a Legend, the other (or the same player) could not play the Legend. Now, you can still play the second, but both die. You can use a Jitte to destroy your opponent's Jitte.

4- The "stack" was just invented when I stopped so bear with me here. If you announce you are going to give a 3/3 creature wearing Jitte the +2/+2 abilty and in responce your opp Bolts you, the creature will die AND the counter will be removed yes? Or would the creature die after the Bolt resolves then since there is no creature to deal damage to the counter remains? Sorry, the stack thing confuses the hell out me.

Let's say you have 1 counter on your Jitte. You announce your intent to "pump" your guy. The Jitte ability is placed on the stack, and you pay the cost - removing the counter. You and your opponent both have the opportunity to respond to this ability before the pump resolves. Your opponent responds with Lightning Bolt, which is placed above the pump on the stack. From there, you both have the opportunity to respond to the Bolt before it resolves. If you have nothing else, the stack resolves from the top down, or, as you're more familiar with, Last In First Out, so the creature is Bolted before the Pump happens. It's a 3/3 when the Bolt resolves, and it dies. Then the pump tries to resolve, has no creature to pump, and the stack clears. End result: -1 Jitte counter, 1 dead creature, and your opponent has one less Bolt in hand.

Then there are these two official rulings:

5- "If the Jitte is moved after the "+2/+2" mode is announced but before it resolves, the bonus is given to the creature that is equipped when the ability resolves."

I thought you couldn't move Jitte to another creature once it was attached?
Any time you can play a sorcery, you can equip Jitte to another creature you control, by paying the equip cost. This ruling assumes you have a way to equip at instant speed, which a few cards allow you to do.

6- "If the Jitte leaves play after the "+2/+2" mode is announced but before it resolves, the bonus is given to the creature that was most recently equipped once the ability resolves."

This is just basic rules here, but in what instance would it resolve, if it's not there?
Any time the ability is not countered by something. The rules no longer say "If you kill something in response to it's ability, the ability is countered."

Cait_Sith
08-07-2007, 04:05 PM
1 - Yes.
2 - You may use the other abilities BEFORE it is destroyed, but you may (normally) respond by removing the counters.
3 - The legend rule still applies, but it is different now. If there is more than one legendary permanent with the same name in play, ALL of them are destroyed as a state based effect.
4 - Removing a counter is a cost, so it is removed BEFORE your opponent is allowed to respond.
5 - You may not unattach an equipment at will, but you can attach an attached equipment to another target creature by paying the equip cost.

Versus
08-07-2007, 04:07 PM
Excellent, thanks to you both!

The REattaching thing totally went over my head. So it's not like you can just take off a jacket lets say and throw it on the floor, but you can take off a jacket and hand it to someone else to put on for 2 colorless. Interesting. Someone must have found a few ways to exploit that!

Bahamuth
08-07-2007, 04:10 PM
1-Yes it stays in play, just like every equipment.

2-Yes you can. You can gain life or choose to give some -1/-1s to a creature.

3-Legend rule does still apply, but it was changed slightly when Ravnica block was released. If a second legendairy permanent hits the table, both die.

4- It's actually quite simple. Every activated ability has a : in it (as far as i know). Everything before the : are the costs you have to pay to play the ability. There's no way anyone can respond to paying a cost. After you payed the cost, the ability goes on the stack. In Jitte's case, you already payed the cost: remove a counter. Now your creature is about to get +2/+2. Then the opponent responds with a Lightning Bolt. So now the stack is: Jitte's ability (bottom) and Lightning Bolt (top). The top resolves first, so the creature you were about to give +2/+2 recieves 3 damage first and probably dies.

If you had another counter on your Jitte, you could've responded removing that counter as well. Then the stack is: Jitte's first ability (bottow), Lightning Bolt (middle) and Jitte's second ability (top). Now your creature grows +2/+2 and survives the Lightning Bolt (assuming he isn't 1/1). Then the creature recieves another +2/+2 (the first).

EDIT: ......seriousely......



..........

...

Versus
08-07-2007, 05:59 PM
Any time the ability is not countered by something. The rules no longer say "If you kill something in response to it's ability, the ability is countered."

So if announce the +2/+2 the the Jitte gets Disenchanted, even after the Jitte leaves play, the +2/+2 stands? Wow.



If you had another counter on your Jitte, you could've responded removing that counter as well. Then the stack is: Jitte's first ability (bottow), Lightning Bolt (middle) and Jitte's second ability (top). Now your creature grows +2/+2 and survives the Lightning Bolt (assuming he isn't 1/1). Then the creature recieves another +2/+2 (the first).


So it's a good strategy not to overextend yourself when using this.

I appreciate all the replies, I just have one more:

Lets take the example from above and change it a bit. Say I am attacking with a 3/3 equipped with Jitte with 1 counter and a straight 2/2. In response my opponent Shocks my 2/2. I COULD attach the Jitte to the 2/2 for :2: , but I would have had to annouce that I was making the 3/3 a +2/+2 and remove the counter THEN attach the Jitte to the 2/2 in order to save him from the lethal Shock damage, right? I can't just move it over to the 2/2 THEN announce I want to use the ability.

Phantom
08-07-2007, 06:02 PM
So if announce the +2/+2 the the Jitte gets Disenchanted, even after the Jitte leaves play, the +2/+2 stands? Wow.



So it's a good strategy not to overextend yourself when using this.

I appreciate all the replies, I just have one more:

Lets take the example from above and change it a bit. Say I am attacking with a 3/3 equipped with Jitte with 1 counters and a straight 2/2. In response my opponent Shocks my 2/2. I COULD attach the Jitte to the 2/2 for :2: , but I would have had to annouce that I was making the 3/3 a +2/+2 and remove the counter THEN attached the Jitte to the 2/2 in order to save hime from the letha Shock damage, right? I can't just move it over to the 2/2 THEN announce I want to use the ability.


Equipping creatures is SORCERY speed, so your 2/2 is toast. In fact, killing creatures with instants in response to announced Equips is a nice tempo boost.

(Correct me if I'm wrong about any of this. I really shouldn't post in the Rules forum)

RoddyVR
08-08-2007, 10:42 AM
So if announce the +2/+2 the the Jitte gets Disenchanted, even after the Jitte leaves play, the +2/+2 stands? Wow. yep.

Lets take the example from above and change it a bit. Say I am attacking with a 3/3 equipped with Jitte with 1 counter and a straight 2/2. In response my opponent Shocks my 2/2. I COULD attach the Jitte to the 2/2 for :2: , but I would have had to annouce that I was making the 3/3 a +2/+2 and remove the counter THEN attach the Jitte to the 2/2 in order to save him from the lethal Shock damage, right? I can't just move it over to the 2/2 THEN announce I want to use the ability.

as phantom sais, you cant equip the jitte in response to anything cause equiping is sorcery speed (has to be your main phase and an empty stack).

but if you have lets say a Magnetic Theft instant in your hand, then it could work this way:

your jitte is on the 3/3.
you declare the 3/3 and the 2/2 as attackers
your opponent casts shock on the 2/2
you respond by casting magnetic theft to move the jitte to the 2/2
after the magnetic theft resolves (but the shock is still on the stack) you use the jitte's ability to pump the 2/2 with +2/+2
the pump resolves, your 2/2 is now a 4/4
the shock resolves doing 2 damage to your 4/4
assuming no blockers you opponent takes 7 combat damage.

you could also activate the jitte in response to the shock, then in response to the jitte activation you could magnetic theft it over to your 2/2 and after both the theft and the activation resolve it would be your 2/2 that gets the +2/+2 boost (all before the shock resolves)

Versus
08-08-2007, 08:31 PM
Ah, thanks for clarifying that. So to sum up, the attaching and +2/+2 is at sorcery speed and the -1/-1 and gain 2 life are at instant speed.

Thanks for the answers guys!

Tacosnape
08-08-2007, 09:43 PM
Ah, thanks for clarifying that. So to sum up, the attaching and +2/+2 is at sorcery speed and the -1/-1 and gain 2 life are at instant speed.

No, this is wrong.

All activated abilities are at instant speed, meaning they can be played at any time you could play an instant, unless otherwise specified. Therefore the +2/+2, the -1/-1, and the gain 2 life, which are all modal choices of the "Remove a counter" ability, are all played at instant speed.

Equip is a special keyword, however.

Equip :2: means ":2:: Attach this to target creature you control. Play this ability only when you could play a sorcery." This reminder text is present on lots of other pieces of equipment. Therefore, as Equip specifies that it can only be played as a sorcery, you can only equip as a sorcery.

Certain cards can get around this. Leonin Shikari, for instance, lets you equip as an instant. Cranial Plating has a second ability that says ":b::b:: Attach -this- to target creature you control." This can also be played as an instant, but doesn't count as equipping, because the ability does not say "Equip :b::b:."

Taurelin
08-09-2007, 04:25 AM
There is another Trick that you might be interested in. If you equip Jitte to a creature with double strike, you can get as much as 4 counters per turn because damage is dealt twice. It is even possible to do the following:

1) Attack
2) Deal First strike damage
3) Get 2 counters
4) Remove 2 counters -> +4/+4
5) Deal regular damage with the bonus
6) Get 2 counters.

Versus
08-10-2007, 02:13 PM
Thanks for the clarification snape.

Taurelin: I was looking at a card that had DS yesterday in fact (never knew it existed till then) and that occured to me. Of course now I have a question about Double Strike. If you attack with a creature equipped with Jitte that has DS and no one blocks, you WONT deal double damage to you opponent will you?

Atwa
08-10-2007, 02:16 PM
You deal double damage to your opponent if he/she has no creatures.

If there is a blocker which dies after the first strike damage, you won't deal damage to your opponent (unless it also has trample).

Versus
08-10-2007, 02:20 PM
Damn! Craziness! Now lemme take a wild guess, since the creature in question I looked at happened to be Boros Swiftblade I'm gonna assume "Boros Deck Wins" is the place to look next?!

Edit: Okay, NONE of the builds I see uses him??

Nihil Credo
08-10-2007, 05:06 PM
Edit: Okay, NONE of the builds I see uses him??
The problem with Boros Swiftblade is that, on its own, its only advantage over a Grizzly Bear is that it can fight x/1s and live. For RW, you can do better than that (Goblin Legionnaire).

Boros Swiftblade becomes good when you can reliably make him bigger, thus exploiting his Double Strike ability. This was done, for example, in Raphaël Levy's Gaea's Might Get There deck, which won back-to-back Extended Grand Prixs and ran, I think, 6-7 pump spells. You can Google the name of the deck if you want a list.
In Legacy both pump spells and a five-colour manabase are too risky to run. So in order to make full use of Swiftblade you need something like 6-7 pieces of Equipment, which indicates a deck less like Boros Deck Wins (which does NOT want to spend 4+ mana just to improve a creature - it prefers to play cheap guys, let them die, and finish with burn) and more like Angel Stompy, which invests mana in Equipment to turn cheap creatures into real threats.
In fact, an Angel Stompy version splashing Red was developed a couple of years ago, specifically in order to run Boros Swiftblade; it's sexy with Jitte, but it's hot with Sword of Fire and Ice! That version, IIRC, didn't go anywhere, because adding Red made the deck less consistent (Ancient Tombs no like Swiftblade) without offering a significant improvement in the more difficult matchups - namely combo and some control.

Wow, that came out longer than I thought. Anyway, this is (to my knowledge) what's been done in Legacy with Swiftblade. Now you're welcome to try a different path.

Atwa
08-10-2007, 05:32 PM
Zoo also ran/runs swiftblade, since that deck ran Jitte, Rancor and Wild Growth.

The trample Rancor gives it (plus the 3/2 body) really makes it good against Goblins, Mongoose and other pesky creatures.

tpnp
08-10-2007, 05:47 PM
One of the stronger Zoo builds I saw that had the Swiftblade (at least in my opinion) was Garv's deck which ran 4 Rancors and 4 Giant Growths.

Versus
08-13-2007, 07:12 AM
Thanks guys. Wow, Double strike with Rancor and Jitte is insane!

Another question came up maybe you could answer for me: If a Mogg Fanatic were to block a Jitte equipped creature and then sacrifice itself for the 1 damage the Jitte would NOT trigger and receive NO counters as there is nothing there to give combat damage to, or am I wrong about that?

Nihil Credo
08-13-2007, 08:07 AM
Thanks guys. Wow, Double strike with Rancor and Jitte is insane!

Another question came up maybe you could answer for me: If a Mogg Fanatic were to block a Jitte equipped creature and then sacrifice itself for the 1 damage the Jitte would NOT trigger and receive NO counters as there is nothing there to give combat damage to, or am I wrong about that?
You're correct. Damage isn't dealt, so the Jitte doesn't trigger.

Note that you can sacrifice the Fanatic after damage is put on the stack, but before damage resolves. The Jitte will still not get counters, but you'll be able to use the Fanatic to kill a 2/2 creature.

Versus
08-13-2007, 05:24 PM
Gotcha, thanks!

I hate to be a pain in the ass and I know this is covered in the main rules, but the stack thing is still messing with my head. How do you know when to commit?? Lemme give you an example of what I would do before this stack. I'll use an example NOT concernong Jitte, but applicable none the less...

Back in the 1990's (lets pretend Nantuko shade existed), lets say I had 4 untapped Swamps and attacked with my Shade:


ME: "Ill attack for 2"

opp: "Ill take the damge"

Me: (tapping 4 Swamps) make that 6

DONE!



NOW with the stack, when do I commit to making the Shade a 6/5??

do I still "attack for 2" and wait for a responce? THEN not commit fully and maybe only pump him up to 3 leaving 3 mana available to save him AFTER the Bolt comes? If it comes?

I understand the stack, how it works, and why it works, b...okay maybe I dont! It's like I don't even know how to play the game I thought I used to be good at playing.

KillemallCFH
08-13-2007, 05:53 PM
After the declare blockers step, each player has a chance to play abilities. So once no blockers are declared, you have a chance to pump him. And you're pretty much correct about him being bolted. If you just declare "Pump him 4 times" without passing priority then your opponent can bolt him in response. The best way to avoid this is to just let each pump activation resolve before adding another one to the stack.

Versus
08-13-2007, 06:14 PM
After the declare blockers step, each player has a chance to play abilities. So once no blockers are declared, you have a chance to pump him. And you're pretty much correct about him being bolted. If you just declare "Pump him 4 times" without passing priority then your opponent can bolt him in response. The best way to avoid this is to just let each pump activation resolve before adding another one to the stack.

Really? So I can attack for 2 wait opp to pass, then pump to 3...pass, 4...pass, ect? That's not gonna annoy the crap outta people? LOL

Man, maybe I should unlearn what I "know" and start over. I've been reading the Comprehensive rules, but only about 30% of the the way through.

Iranon
08-15-2007, 06:03 AM
You'd probably just say 'pumping once at a time'... and slowly tap your swamps, waiting for an opponent to do anything.

It's impractical and unfun to announce every pass of priority. Unfortunately, there are situations where it makes sense to require your opponent to do so. Chess clocks would solve the issue, as well as greatly simplify dealing with time constraints... but I think most people would regard that as overkill.

Versus
08-15-2007, 03:31 PM
Will do. I guess I'll also learn which decks out now will even be able to respond to doing something like that and won't have to be as cautious.

Another Jitte question popped into me head if anyone is game:

I understand that dealing damage and generating counters is a triggered ability, but using the counters would be considered "activated", yes? That would lead me to conclude that Jitte would be basically usless if named with Pithing Needle by your opponent?

KillemallCFH
08-15-2007, 03:37 PM
Will do. I guess I'll also learn which decks out now will even be able to respond to doing something like that and won't have to be as cautious.

Another Jitte question popped into me head if anyone is game:

I understand that dealing damage and generating counters is a triggered ability, but using the counters would be considered "activated", yes? That would lead me to conclude that Jitte would be basically usless if named with Pithing Needle by your opponent?Yup. Just remember that if it has any counters on it when they play Pithing Needle, you should use those counters in response so they don't sit there useless, unless of course you have another needle target out and you don't think that they are going to name Jitte.

Versus
08-15-2007, 07:28 PM
Yup. Just remember that if it has any counters on it when they play Pithing Needle, you should use those counters in response so they don't sit there useless, unless of course you have another needle target out and you don't think that they are going to name Jitte.

Okay, I would have most likely made that mistake thinking I could still use them being they were already there, thanks.

In the same vein, as long as it was still equipped to a creature when it got needled I could continue to swing with it and accumulate counters while I find a solution to remove the needle, assuming the deck has one that is?

I should have probably asked first if the named cards ability can be used again after the needle leaves play?

KillemallCFH
08-15-2007, 10:11 PM
Okay, I would have most likely made that mistake thinking I could still use them being they were already there, thanks.

In the same vein, as long as it was still equipped to a creature when it got needled I could continue to swing with it and accumulate counters while I find a solution to remove the needle, assuming the deck has one that is?

I should have probably asked first if the named cards ability can be used again after the needle leaves play?Yes to the first question.

Once the Pithing Needle is destroyed, the named card's activated abilities can be played.

Phantom
08-16-2007, 01:09 AM
And just an fyi, read the card Sword of Fire and Ice. The only activated ability it has is equipping, so needling it after it has been equipped won't stop it from activating when you hit with said creature.

Versus
08-16-2007, 07:14 AM
Thanks Killemall.

Phantom: I just took a guess that equipping would be an activated abilty. Thanks for conforming, I wasn't 100% on that.

Versus
12-12-2007, 07:38 AM
Just in case anyone else is a retard like I am and didn't know, apparently Jitte does NOT get counters if you bounce the equipped creature even WITH damage on the stack. It took 3 Judges to come to this conclusion and they all vacilated on an answer before making a final decision. I was under the impression that it fell under last know information of the creature. I guess not.

Anusien
12-12-2007, 09:31 AM
After the declare blockers step, each player has a chance to play abilities. So once no blockers are declared, you have a chance to pump him. And you're pretty much correct about him being bolted. If you just declare "Pump him 4 times" without passing priority then your opponent can bolt him in response. The best way to avoid this is to just let each pump activation resolve before adding another one to the stack.
This changed. Now if you say "pump him 4 times" you're assumed to pump and pass, pump and pass. If your opponent interrupts, they say when they interrupt and all future pumps haven't happened yet.

nitewolf9
12-12-2007, 10:59 AM
This changed. Now if you say "pump him 4 times" you're assumed to pump and pass, pump and pass. If your opponent interrupts, they say when they interrupt and all future pumps haven't happened yet.

Yep, and that makes things alot less annoying. You would have to explicitly hold priority in order for all activations to go on the stack at once, although I'm not sure why you'd want to do that (situations could come up I suppose).