Source Tournament - Special Edition

[Machinus]

I hope Parcher doesn't mind if I steal all of his marketing. Like he does with the source tournaments, I want to run an online tournament for members here. However, this is not going to be a regular Legacy tournament.

In this tournament, you would be allowed to play with one set of any of the following cards in your deck:

Land Tax
Earthcraft
Metalworker
Hermit Druid
Grim Monolith
Entomb

***
The banned list is probably not going to change!
***

Just to be clear, this means you can play with four copies of a single banned card.

Before I run this, I need to know how many people are interested in playing, and also what exactly I need to do to manage this whole thing. I might put up some prizes (donations welcome obviously), and I would want to discuss the tech publicly after the tournament was over.

If you can help, or just want to play, post in this thread!

[Nosomo.]

It would be pretty fun to do this so I would be in, and I will help in anyway possible. Oh and you should expand you list to maybe 10-15 cards on a list instead of 6 now so less people will be playing withthe same type of deck.

[Nihil Credo]

I missed the Source tournament due to university, so I'll be glad to play in this one. I'm not much of a combo player, though, so I'll probably get to work on Monolith or Metalworker; failing that, I'll bring my latest Threshold list and see how it fares against banned powa.

Also, since I don't play Constructed in real life, I'm not really interested in prizes (I guess I could sell them, but it would be kinda low).

[Atwa]

If we are going to do this, count me in.

Playing in some wacky format is always fun, and maybe we can now prove which card on the banned list is the weakest, of which I am sure was the purpose of this tournament.

[Machinus]

There aren't many other cards that would be interesting to use. Truthfully I would only want to use realistic possibilities. There might be a few more, but they are much harder to analyze.

[Nosomo.]

Well for example here are a few good choices balance,dream halls,Mind's Desire(sure overpowered but it is such a high mana cost),Worldgorger(I know he is overpowered but listen to my reasoning, 1. No entomb to it is harder to put him in a yard, 2. Many more yard hate cards then there was at the time of Gorger's rise).

[Silverdragon]

Imo you should remove Hermit Druid from your list. Cephalid Breakfast is already viable with a 2 card mill combo.
edit: Hermichorid sounds scary as well.

[Adan]

I think you would wrack your tounament with that.

If so, I am expecting a lot of Hermichorid, MetalworkerStax with Staff of Domination for total Stupidness, Army of Squirrels, and maybe parfait with Landtax-Scrollrack-Action.

That is going to be a combo format.

[Nosomo.]

If he allows Mind's Desire I am playing that. Because Mind's Desire is the hotness!!!

[URABAHN]

I hope Parcher doesn't mind if I steal all of his marketing. Like he does with the source tournaments, I want to run an online tournament for members here. However, this is not going to be a regular Legacy tournament.

In this tournament, you would be allowed to play with one set of any of the following cards in your deck:

Land Tax
Earthcraft
Metalworker
Hermit Druid
Grim Monolith
Entomb

Just to be clear, this means you can play with four copies of a single banned card.

Before I run this, I need to know how many people are interested in playing, and also what exactly I need to do to manage this whole thing. I might put up some prizes (donations welcome obviously), and I would want to discuss the tech publicly after the tournament was over.

If you can help, or just want to play, post in this thread!

I might be able to help with that.

[Nihil Credo]

At a closer look, I too support removing Hermit Druid from that list.

[bigbear102]

I'd be in.

[Bryant Cook]

I'll play if I can use Mind's Desire in TES... Aww man I'm already getting a hard-on.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I'll be in. I don't know with what, but I'll be in.

[Nightmare]

If you need someone with DCIR to do the pairings and stuff, I can do it.

[Citrus-God]

If we are going to do this, count me in.

Playing in some wacky format is always fun, and maybe we can now prove which card on the banned list is the weakest, of which I am sure was the purpose of this tournament.

gahh... Atwa, whip out ICBE Entomb Replenish.Dec, or ICBE Vault Reanimator. Ya know, the decks we never work on.

[Bane of the Living]

The problem with this exercise is you wont prove how these cards/decks work alongside real Legacy decks if everyone playing is including these cards. How would these decks do against Goblins or Thresh, would either of those decks adapt these card choices? Do you see where Im going with this?

This seems like a silly combo deck tournament.

[noobslayer]

I'd love to see Bazaar of Baghdad, Vampiric Tutor/Imperial Seal, or even Gush on that list. But count me in as well I guess.

EDIT:

gahh... Atwa, whip out ICBE Entomb Replenish.Dec, or ICBE Vault Reanimator. Ya know, the decks we never work on.
It is really fucking obnoxious when everyone feels the need to put their team stamp in front of a deck title. Like they made the damn archtype.

[C.P.]

I'd be more than glad to participate, but I suck at MWS. I'll give it a try, though.

[Nihil Credo]

The problem with this exercise is you wont prove how these cards/decks work alongside real Legacy decks if everyone playing is including these cards. How would these decks do against Goblins or Thresh, would either of those decks adapt these card choices? Do you see where Im going with this?

This seems like a silly combo deck tournament.
I'm highly likely to bring Black Threshold, so that's one.

[Machinus]

Thanks for the support guys. I will need DCIR help.

There will be no Mind's Desire in this format. I really shouldn't have to say that.

Hermit Druid is fine. All you guys have to do is play with 1 mana spells that can kill a 1/1. I am excited that you guys think these cards are broken though. If anyone can break one that would be a terrific accomplishment. If no one does that doesn't prove they are safe, but I do hope to be putting up prizes, and if we get a big enough turnout then it won't be irrelevant if these cards don't overpower anything.

I would love to have Seal/Vamp back in the format, but we aren't ready yet to start talking about it or playing with it. But don't worry, I haven't forgotten about them.

I am pretty sure the banned list is staying where it is. However, you guys need time to develop your decks since these are "new" cards. You don't have to play with them, and I think the best deck at this tournament might not even use them, but that's for you guys to figure out. I will announce the tournament dates soon!

[Illissius]

I'd be willing to participate. Prizes are of paramount importance, I think, otherwise no one has any incentive to truly try and break things, or even play.

This is inevitably devolving into a discussion on which cards should be allowed, so here's my take:

definitely:
Land Tax
Earthcraft
Metalworker
Grim Monolith
Entomb
Dream Halls
Illusionary Mask

maybe:
Hermit Druid
Vampiric Tutor
Gush
Worldgorger Dragon
Mind's Desire
Time Spiral

definitely not:
Balance
Bazaar of Baghdad
Necropotence
(are you people insane?)

I'm personally averse to unbanning any cards where the only real potential outcomes are

a. broken combo
b. nothing much

because really, what can you gain? Hermit Druid, Dragon, Desire, and Spiral fall into this category. The only exceptions are where it seems like it could be really useless, as with Mind Over Matter, Dream Halls, and Earthcraft. (I doubt Dream Halls would break the format any more than MOM or Replenish, and Earthcraft any more than Aluren).

I'd really like to give Vampiric Tutor and Gush a shot, as they have a lot of interesting applications besides combo. I think their potential brokenness is certainly questionable -- Enlightened, Mystical and Worldly are legal and see only marginal play, and would Gush really be so insane without Fastbond and Yawgmoth's Will? ...on second thought, Gush would probably be ridiculous in just its standard role as an aggro control engine (Gush-Tarmogoyf.dec is a scary thought), not any combo capacity, so I'll stick with only Vamp.

As for Mask, if Dreadnought-Stifle hasn't broken things, Dreadnought-Mask(-Stifle) is worth at least considering.

[Hummingbird TG]

I'm in if Vampiric Tutor is legal. Not that I'm actually good with deckbuilding, though.

[calosso]

I'm in.

[Pinder]

I'll play if I can use Mind's Desire in TES... Aww man I'm already getting a hard-on.


I thought the objective here was to prove what cards aren't broken...

Anyway, I'm in. Land Tax Slivers ftw!

[Zilla]

If you're looking to prove anything substantive about the banned cards I think it would be better to hold a series of tournaments where only one of the banned cards was legal in each. Otherwise your results are going to be heavily skewed by the fact that nearly every deck will be playing banned cards. This does nothing to illustrate how a single banned card will affect the existing metagame. If you're not looking to prove anything and it's all in fun, then it doesn't matter.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I agree with Godzilla, more free, internet based Legacy tournaments.

[Cait_Sith]

If you're not looking to prove anything and it's all in fun, then it doesn't matter.

I think the idea here is for us just be to able to use the weaker of the banned cards for the hell of it.

I, for one, am totally playing some classic Earthcraft deck, because I LOVE that card.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Needs more WGD, but I'm in.

[iOWN]

Looks fun.

*subscribes*

[scrumdogg]

The problem with this exercise is you wont prove how these cards/decks work alongside real Legacy decks if everyone playing is including these cards. How would these decks do against Goblins or Thresh, would either of those decks adapt these card choices? Do you see where Im going with this?

This seems like a silly combo deck tournament.

Agreed, there should be a 'control' in this experiment, namely there shouyld be people running the top tier(s) as well as all the craziness & see where it all shakes out. Not as definitive as testing each single card in it's own tourney (which is a LOT of time & effort btw) but much better than simply 'Crazy Banned Cards in a Legacy Blender' tournament.

[Bryant Cook]

It is really fucking obnoxious when everyone feels the need to put their team stamp in front of a deck title. Like they made the damn archtype.

Get over it, all that it means is that it's the Team's lists.

[APriestOfGix]

Get over it, all that it means is that it's the Team's lists.

Yeah I don't know about you but i Play TCPS not TES...


The Cool Patrol Storm, not The EPIC Storm...


:-P

and i'm not even jokeing there...

[Parcher]

Couple of things:

Love the idea. I'd love to play, but as during my tournament, my schedule is so wonky during the summer that I can't be relied on. I will of course donate something neat if it runs.

My other was an idea on this control subject brought up. I think it could be managed through a sort of "10th Victem" style of tournament. Everyone signs up with two Deck Security Codes; One for a Deck to Beat (Gobs, Belcher, Thresh), and one for a Banned Deck. Machinus could then randomly assign the first round's pairings with a "control" and "experimental" notation for the players. Players would then alternate decks each round. This way would be fair to all, and you would get both the E vs. E, for fun, but also the E vs C. for results.

[Nydaeli]

I'd sign up. I think some of those cards would have more impact than you think, though.

[Aggro_zombies]

I'd hit it...with a sign-up sheet!

[Tacosnape]

Maybe it's because it's 3am and I'm a grouch who needs sleep, so I mean this with absolutely no offense to anyone and I love all of you (I'm also on cold medicine, which might explain the random urges to hug the monitor). But, like, seriously? Short of flossing the teeth of some enormous killer shark with my wang, this is probably the least appealing idea I can imagine.

[Machinus]

I forgot to include some important information in the original post: this is an optional tournament.

[Nosomo.]

Maybe it's because it's 3am and I'm a grouch who needs sleep, so I mean this with absolutely no offense to anyone and I love all of you (I'm also on cold medicine, which might explain the random urges to hug the monitor). But, like, seriously? Short of flossing the teeth of some enormous killer shark with my wang, this is probably the least appealing idea I can imagine.

No it is the anger. But we do not belittle you for it snape. But at least you stated why you were grumpy. Just next time don't rain on the parade.

[legacyplayer0]

Wow, I might actually want to do this one.

[Sims]

I'm in, though I do agree with Godzilla. If you're trying to prove the broken potential (or nonbroken potential) of a few of the banned cards, it'd make more sense to just use one or two to make people use them against real Legacy decks and see what existing decks will want to use said cards.

Btw... Mind's Desire, Balance, and things of that nature aren't even options.... but Gush? Are you kidding me? Sorcery speed U/g tide with exploration, MoM, and GUSH? If you aren't replaying lands you're pitching them to MoM to untap lands to continue going off? It'd make GAT a little more viable, I suppose, but I still thinking it'd be a bad idea to let Gush back into the format. Granted i know this isn't going to get cards pulled off the B/R, but if we're trying to prove what does and deserve a spot on the b/r list.... I don't think there is much of a question around Gush.

[DrJones]

In my opinion, there's no point whatsoever in doing this if Hermit Druid is allowed.

I won't spend my time in a tournament just to prove that an obviously broken card would break legacy if unbanned. Moreso when less broken versions of the same deck took 4 Top8 spots this week.

[Eldariel]

I'd be interested, although I don't exactly know which of those cards I'd want to play. I guess not playing any is an option too as that allows gauntletting them against present decks.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I'd love it, since I missed the last Source tournament. I'll be one of the ones likely to bring a "real" Legacy deck (that is, one that's not illegal). Still, it'll take all sorts to see how things'll work, right?

[MattH]

Land Tax
Earthcraft
Metalworker
Hermit Druid
Grim Monolith
Entomb
Is anyone seriously going to try to break the first three when the last three are available? There's a clear power jump here.

[Shriekmaw]

It is really fucking obnoxious when everyone feels the need to put their team stamp in front of a deck title. Like they made the damn archtype.


If someone or some team innovates a certain archtype then they have all the right in the world to put their names in front of the deck. This shows that a certain entity that developed the archetype with their own design.

How about if you actually innovated an archetype then you can put your name on it or your team if your on one?

[hi-val]

Although time constraints limit me from playing in this event, I'd tested an Entomb deck awhile back that worked pretty well. It was based on the premise that you run Reanimate spells and Auriok Salvagers and then use Entomb to find combo pieces if you needed them. It killed consistently on turn 2-3; I'd be tickled if anyone actually wanted to toss it together.

[Happy Gilmore]

In this tournament, you would be allowed to play with one set of any of the following cards in your deck:

Land Tax
Earthcraft
Metalworker
Hermit Druid
Grim Monolith
Entomb


I want to emphasize what has been said so far. The first three on the list are clearly weaker than the second three. I completely agree that Land Tax and Earthcraft should come off, even Metalworker is weak enough. But Hermit Druid, Grim Monolith, and Entomb are way way too good. Not Flash good, but above the legacy power level.

A powerlevel of over 9000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[technogeek5000]

Im in, this sounds pretty cool.

[andrew77]

I want to emphasize what has been said so far. The first three on the list are clearly weaker than the second three. I completely agree that Land Tax and Earthcraft should come off, even Metalworker is weak enough. But Hermit Druid, Grim Monolith, and Entomb are way way too good. Not Flash good, but above the legacy power level.

A powerlevel of over 9000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually I think hermit druid is the only really broken card on that list. I doubt land tax earthcraft or metalworker or even would impact legacy at all if they were unbanned. Monolith probably wouldn't do much either. Entomb might be good enough to create a competitive deck based aroudn it. Hermit druid on the other hand would be totally insane. It is easily as powerful as cards like LED and force of will so if it was taken off the banned list it would definately make an impact. I don't think it would cause the problems flash did, but it would impact the format.

[Happy Gilmore]

Actually I think hermit druid is the only really broken card on that list. I doubt land tax earthcraft or metalworker or even would impact legacy at all if they were unbanned. Monolith probably wouldn't do much either. Entomb might be good enough to create a competitive deck based aroudn it. Hermit druid on the other hand would be totally insane. It is easily as powerful as cards like LED and force of will so if it was taken off the banned list it would definately make an impact. I don't think it would cause the problems flash did, but it would impact the format.

I disagree, Entomb would probably be more busted then Hermit Druid. Mostly because Druid is a 1/1, has a tap ability, can be killed easily or Needled. In addition to Salvager we would see a resurgence in reanimator, and even a variation of Hulk Combo.

Aside: If you entomb a Narcomeaba does it hit play?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Aside: If you entomb a Narcomeaba does it hit play?Yes, same thing with Gaea's Blessing.

I don't think Entomb would be too bad, Druid I can see, but not Entomb.

[Sims]

In addition to Salvager we would see a resurgence in reanimator, and even a variation of Hulk Combo.


I already use a variant of Survival Hulk on MWS, and if I have a reanimated hulk I can use entomb to get an outlet (cabal therapy) or if i have an outlet and reanimation spell I can use it to get the hulk.... It might not replace the Survivals but it'll could definitely supplement them.

Druid is still insane, being able to fit into an Ichorid or Breakfast build and giving them an amazing way of filling their yard to facilitate wins. I think it is probably the most powerful and easily abusable card on that particular 6 card list with the current environment.

[noobslayer]

How about if you actually innovated an archetype then you can put your name on it or your team if your on one?
I am not going to perpetuate a flame war with you guys. But this is to all the teams that do it. It just feels annoying, and overbearing with ego when people feel the need to do it. A deck is a deck, regardless of who builds it, adding a name just broadcasts that you are desperate for acknowledgment for an innovation.

[Rastadon]

I agree with Godzilla, Bane, Scrumdogg, and the others.

Machinus, what is the objective here? If it's to prove to the DCI that the cards are not broken, then only one card at a time should be lifted from the banned list. If not, then what is the objective?

[Mijorre]

I believe the concept behind it is 'fun' and/or 'good times'.

[Hummingbird TG]

Then more cards should be allowed...like maybe Vampiric Tutor.

[Mijorre]

Or Ante cards. Your deck would get more awesome as the tourney proceeds
>:3.

[georgjorge]

When would that tourney take place ? Because I'd be interested...Entomb for Magus of the Jar, coupled with Shallow Grave and fast artifact mana, should allow for some pretty broken plays.

[Illissius]

Actually, given Machinus's previous comments, I would guess the goal is to prove something. And yeah, I was going to ask if anyone was going to break Land Tax and Earthcraft when they could have Entomb and Grim Monolith instead...

In fact, I already have quite a few ideas for Druid, Monolith, and Entomb; it sucks that I can only play one. I'll probably post the others as ideas for anyone still looking for a deck.

Is there any rough estimation yet of when the tournament would take place?

[zulander]

I'm in.

[Machinus]

I will be running this in a couple of weeks, after gencon. I want to give you guys some time to build the decks, and I have to see if I have anything good to give away.

[Cait_Sith]

I'll donate a playset of Hermit Druid in honor of the occasion.

[The Rack]

I'm in.

[Mister Agent]

I am in as well.

[Machinus]

Don't worry, I haven't forgotten about you folks! I have been trying to put together some neat prizes but I'm still looking for more cool stuff to give away. However, I am going to start the tournament soon anyway so be ready with your decks!

[Lukas Preuss]

Is there any way for me to still attend this? I just got back from my vacation in Greece.

[Cait_Sith]

Don't worry, I haven't forgotten about you folks! I have been trying to put together some neat prizes but I'm still looking for more cool stuff to give away. However, I am going to start the tournament soon anyway so be ready with your decks!

So, uhhh, you be needing my 4 Hermit Druids or no?

[Machinus]

So, uhhh, you be needing my 4 Hermit Druids or no?

Yes, any additional prizes are welcome!

[Di]

Hermit Druid? Srsly? Yo I am totally down for this.

[Cait_Sith]

Hermit Druid? Srsly? Yo I am totally down for this.

I have a 7 Hermit Druids and 1 Judge DCI Hermit Druid. I am putting 4 Regular ones up for ummm... hmmm... I have no idea. Probably 2nd place or 1st.

[Mister Agent]

I am still in as well. :)

[frolll]

I am so totally in. Playing 4 Entomb seems like a plan with Dark Ritual being a legal card. I do remember playing with a playset in old standard, and it was a real pleasure.