[Discussion] Why are R/U decks inherently weak against any meta?

[FoolofaTook]

I've been wondering about this one since the old days.

Red is the best damage in the meta, combining the best instant and sorcery based damage with creatures that are second only to green as damage producers. Blue has the best absolute NO available to it with a wide range of counters to stop spells before they land and it has the best draw in the meta.

It would seem that red/blue alternatives would be very powerful. However, initial appearances aside, this was not true in the old pre-split format and it's not true in Legacy today which is the closest approximation of that format.

What is it about R/U that makes it inherently weak?

[troopatroop]

Red.

Red's best creatures are all Goblins.

[Tacosnape]

1. Because they're the two worst colors at removing creatures/permanents from the board.

2. Because they have the worst creatures of any two colors in magic.

[Bane of the Living]

They dont pack the goyf.

[SpikeyMikey]

The same reason that suicide black cannot successfully incorporate red into it's strategy.

Black decks generally tend to seek to remove their opponents resources, whether that be permanents or cards in hand. Generally speaking, they're not slow decks, but they're not as fast as an SRB or Goblins build will be.

Blue decks generally tend to seek to deny their opponents resources via countermagic and sweeping board effects.

Red decks generally try to win as fast as possible, thus denying their opponents resources through sheer speed. After all, WoG isn't much use if you die on your 3rd turn.

Adding U or B to a deck with a heavy red theme(i.e. lots of burn) is simply diluting the red strategy to the point of worthlessness. Red does not effectively remove non-creature permanents and with the exception of a few off-pie bad cards like Skullscorch, does not remove cards at all. Again, with the exception of a few off-pie bad cards like Mages Contest, red does not say NO either. Red damage is fast damage, but in the long run, slower, creature based damage stemming from G, B or W will outpace red damage. That's why red only becomes a viable pairing for blue in very select circumstances, such as Fish in T1 during Mirrodin block, or the precursor to Wildfire in T2 back in the days of Urza's.

Red only adds to three types of decks. Blazing speed decks, which seek to win before their opponent can get their feet under them, stompy style decks looking for a little reach, or combo decks looking for fast mana from Desperate Ritual/Rite of Flame etc.

[Jander78]

U/r decks had their day as a response to Mono-U control. In that case, red was just a support color for blasts/Fire/Ice. U/r doesn't fit the mold of Aggro-control because quite frankly there aren't any creatures in either color that you can drop on the board, protect with a few counters, and win within a few turns, without losing to a combo or better opposing creature.

The only thing worthy of exploring this color combination would be to focus on a few key cards:

Goblin Welder
Fire/Ice
Isochron's Scepter


None of these have proven themselves in any recent decks to take note of. And I don't see anything taking off from this in the near future. U/r Landstill is probably the closest thing to generating a decent U/r deck in the current Legacy environment.

[kabal]

Ur Landstill (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=16913) by Mario Ofivo.

Artifacts
2 Crucible Of Worlds
3 Nevinyrral's Disk

Enchantments
4 Standstill

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Electrolyze
1 Fact Or Fiction
4 Fire / Ice
4 Force Of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle

Basic Lands
2 Island
1 Mountain

Lands
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Phyrexian Furnace
3 Pithing Needle
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm

[thefreakaccident]

As I remember, counbterburn used to be pretty decent having good MU's against aggro and control, but could not hold a chance against aggro-control... combo was a walk (but that was then, this is now).

[Nosomo.]

1. Because they're the two worst colors at removing creatures/permanents from the board.

2. Because they have the worst creatures of any two colors in magic.
1.Pyroclasm,char,bolt,Flamebreak, bounce spells are all the rage I have heard for combo winning against control.
2.Goblin Lackey, Morphling. I rest my case
I see that they are not great because they can control the board just as great as other straight up controls, but red is to weak for our format due to people shifting creatures outside burn range(mongoose,goyf). But more combos are suseptible to burn (SI,Breakfast,TES,Belcher). So they just do not work because of the singlet creatures outside of burn range.

[Nihil Credo]

UR Landstill has already been mentioned, and wasn't Eldariel's Goblin Fish a pretty good deck?

[C.P.]

1.Pyroclasm,char,bolt,Flamebreak, bounce spells are all the rage I have heard for combo winning against control.
2.Goblin Lackey, Morphling. I rest my case

1. All are unable to deal with giant untagetable creatures. Any of the removals you listed cannot deal with goyf. Bouce spells in control force you to be in card disadvantage in most cases. Disk is pretty weak, especially with grip in the format. The conclusion? there is absolutely no versatile board sweeper or efficient removal for UR that can deal with wide range of things.

2. Lackey is only good in goblins. Morphing is slow, and cannot hold the fort fast enough anymore. Moreover, it cannot kill goyf. It is by no means a game breaking brokenness like goyf.

Today's lesson: Play Goyf.

[ForceofWill]

Morphling is not a good creature anymore. It's not in any decks.

[C.P.]

Morphling is not a good creature anymore. It's not in any decks.

Quoted for the sad truth.

I sometimes wonder what would have happened if Morphling was timeshifted, though. He would be THA NUTS with Teferi.

[ForceofWill]

All we got was torchling who in abilities isn't even as good as morphling but add to the fact hes red makes him horrible in t2 also.

[Pinder]

Morphing is slow, and cannot hold the fort fast enough anymore. Moreover, it cannot kill goyf. It is by no means a game breaking brokenness like goyf.


And especially now in these times when Pithing Needle is running around in everyone's board (whether it should be there or not is another discussion), Morphling is even worse. :3::u::u: for a 3/3 vanilla is what we call strictly worse than Hill Giant. That is not a good thing to be. Sure, I suppose you'd probably have answers to Needle, but by the time you found them Tarmogoyf would have killed you.



Today's lesson: Play Goyf.

Hate to admit it, but Tarmogoyf is the new Morphling. Why invest 5 mana on turn 7 or so, plus a ton more in successive turns to deal a maximum of 5 damage a turn, when you can just pay 2 mana on your 2nd or 3rd turn for a 5/6 that requires no further investment? Answer: you don't.

Morphling is bad now. Deal with it.

[TrialByFire]

Hate to admit it, but Tarmogoyf is the new Morphling. Why invest 5 mana on turn 7 or so, plus a ton more in successive turns to deal a maximum of 5 damage a turn, when you can just pay 2 mana on your 2nd or 3rd turn for a 5/6 that requires no further investment? Answer: you don't.

Morhpling is bad now. Deal with it.


Sad but true. Green is teh broken.

[Bryant Cook]

Sad but true. Green is teh broken.




Brain on fire..

Must... lock.. thread...

Ok. Look. I'm only going to say this once. If you have any questions or rebuttals, keep them to yourself.

Oath Sucks. Ok? It's awful. Green is an awful color. Building a control deck around it doesn't make it any better. *see "Druids, Oath of" and "Psychatog" and "Junk, PT" (ok, so junk really isn't a control deck.. well, kinda) Come to think of it, building a combo deck around that color doesn't work too well either. *see "Aluren."

Know why suicide oath was winning in extended back two seasons ago? Extended does not have the following cards: Swords to plowshares, Force of Will. Believe it or not, those cards are powerful enough to be a constant presence in any metagame with the card pool they are legal in. In fact, you may play against those very cards in the next tournament you play in. Or you may even play them yourself. I need a /sarcasm tag really badly.

If you want to play the game where I name a combo, then you name one that stops it, then I name another one.. make a different thread. However, this point counterpoint thing is fucking pointless. Benzo would be moderately playable with entomb. In fact, I would probably play it. I recieve unhealthy pleasure from reanimating fatties. However, if you check my whole existance-of-cards-that-would-slightly-affect-the-extended-metagame-if-they-were-legal arguement above, you will notice that sometimes a big ass fatty isn't that hard to deal with. Also, Tormod's crypt isn't avalable to play in extended. You know, those things you have because you didn't want to lose to Dragon (yet you did anyhow, didn't you?)

Please stop drawing conjecture from extended. It's different cardpools. Ok? We're still more like type 1 than extended. Another thing: The bannings of replenish, skullclamp, etc just because they were banned in extended. Not too bringht. They missed survival of the goddamn fittest. No worries though, it's not like anyone played those cards in old 1.5 anyhow.

This brings us full circle to Oath of Druids, and the fact that green sucks. I know an aggro deck can't handle a turn 2 fatty. Know what? That aggro deck is probably playing green. They weren't going to win anyhow.

Mind twist is a very swingy card. In the absence of good acceleration, it's not that great turn 1. However, turn 4, it empties your opponent's hand. That's pretty frickin' swingy. Of course, this depends on your matchup. I know you aren't playing mind twist in suicide. Why? Because I know you aren't playing suicide. You are a better magic player than that. So I know you didn't just compare mind twist to hymn to tourach. While hymn to tourach is actually more cost effective than a mind twist, Mind Twist happens to be infinately splashable for such a devistating effect.

Metalworker is fine. Metalworker in the current card pool is at just about the right power level for the format. After all, goblin lacky is still legal. Guess what, it's also an artifact and a creature.

I refuse to comment on the very specualtion that a "broken replenish" deck exists. I believe that to be an oxymoron. If by boken you mean "slow and disruptable" then.. nevermind.

In conclusion,

- Discussing B/R changes just make you look dumb. It makes you look like you don't know what you are talking about. I might have a thousand or more mistakes in what I have written above. I most likely do not.

- I blame people who discuss B/R changes like they are smarter than R&D for the change and seperation of the lists. You may be smarter than R&D. That's ok, so is my toaster. Just don't do it. Ok? Don't.

- Green sucks.

I hate to use this quote because it's Edinger's, however, it's needed. There's nothing that green can do better than any other color.

[Kronicler]

Ah, but you are wrong! Green can cast Goyf much better than any of the other colors!

Kronicler

[C.P.]

Ah, but you are wrong! Green can cast Goyf much better than any of the other colors!

Kronicler

And doing so is about the only thing that green is good for. Well, at least it has the best creature in the format now.

[FoolofaTook]

What do people think of Storm Entity, Emberwilde Augur and Shapeshifter's Marrow as potential adds to resolve the perceived weakness in R/U's creature options?

I've always seen the problem with R/U as more the result of the transient nature of the best spells available to the two colors. Lightning Bolt, Brainstorm and Force of Will are great spells but they have a one time effect and then they're gone.

In the meta that I played in a decade ago speed was also a huge concern because R/U was slower than just about any other color combination. These days that's not such a big concern with the availability of the red rituals and things like lotus petal as a 4 of.

I just have this feeling that there's real exploration to do in that color combo given a meta that is currently trying to fend both combo and goblins off.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Red and Blue both have extremely efficient spells, some of which are among the best in the format. However, the color combination is lacking in decent answers to artifacts, enchantments, and large creatures.

The solution then, is to try to win the game relatively quickly. The best way to do that is to splash green for Tarmogoyf and threshold creatures.

UGR ********
4x Brainstorm
4x Portent
4x Predict
2x Serum Visions
2x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
3x Daze

4x Lighting Bolt
3x Pithing Needle

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Nimble Mongoose
2x Fledgling Dragon (this card is much better than Morphling)

4x Volcanic Island
3x Tropical Island
3x Wooded Foothills
2x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
2x Island
1x Forest

sideboard
4x Pyroclasm
3x Control Magic
3x Counterbalance
2x Krosan Grip
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Sensei's Divining Top

There's your U/R deck.

BTW, that Fakespam quote gets dumber every time I see it. For the love of God, stop posting it!

[DrJones]

The problem might be that blue cards favor a mid-late game plan, while red cards favor an early-mid game plan. When you split the deck between two opposite strategies (red and blue cards), your deck becomes unfocused, and you can't reliably follow either strategy, because you don't get enough early-enablers/late-enablers as consistently as you would with a "mono"-build.

If that is true, only out for blue-red is mid-game aggro-control (where it has to compete with Thres and Survival)

[LGD]

...However, the color combination is lacking in decent answers to artifacts, enchantments, and large creatures...


I agree with most of what you said but this is seriously, seriously, seriously wrong. Like the most wrong you can be. Red hates on artifacts harder than just about any other color (with the possibile exception of white). Doesn't change the fact that the color combination has gaping holes in its strategy (that it actually usually needs artifacts to fill), but if artifacts were ever a dominant force in the metagame then U/R wouldn't necessarily be a bad color choice for a control deck at all.

[Meekrab]

What do people think of Storm Entity, Emberwilde Augur and Shapeshifter's Marrow as potential adds to resolve the perceived weakness in R/U's creature options?
Seriously awful; not as good as Mogg Fanatic; Control Magic's inbred cousin. None of those are even close.


I just have this feeling that there's real exploration to do in that color combo given a meta that is currently trying to fend both combo and goblins off.
Unfortunately the list of cards that are good against both Goblins and combo is pretty small, in addition to which the format is too diverse to run answers for everything, so playing a slower clock in your colors is just a worse idea than splashing for Goyf.

[Eldariel]

I think Ur Ophidian can be good too. You can draw cards with 'Phid and clearing way has never been cheaper. It also gives you Pyroclasms and whatnot to hold Joblins off.

[Illissius]

The same reason that suicide black cannot successfully incorporate red into it's strategy.

What is the Red Death?


Red hates on artifacts harder than just about any other color (with the possibile exception of white).

I think you meant green. The order used to be red, then green, now it's reversed (since Mirrodin?), so in Legacy, having both the old and the new, it's probably a wash.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I hate to use this quote because it's Edinger's, however, it's needed. There's nothing that green can do better than any other color.

That quote is about 3 years old, and it's not Edinger's, it Terlinsky's(sp?).

Also, as Alix has pointed out, there is a rather succesful UR(g) deck out there.

And Red Death is Sui incorporating rd, and it's done very well.

edit: If, on the other hand, your real question is why does counter-burn suck, it's because it's a misapplication of the Philosophy of Fire.

[FoolofaTook]

Red and blue actually have excellent options against artifacts, enchantments are the problem.

For decks that are just using a single artifact to devastating effect red has Pillage, Shattering Spree, Shatter even (probably should be a 2 of SB card in a R/U deck) and also blue counterspells to stop things like Goblin Charbelcher from even landing.

For decks abusing a lot of artifacts there is Energy Flux (the most effective mass shut down spell for artifacts in the game when I played and maybe still), Shattering Spree and Shatterstorm.

Against enchantments you are just looking at bounce and counters along with artifact based removal to handle those, most of which are clunky and cost-ineffective methods.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Sure, red has artifact removal, but none of those cards are versatile enough to maindeck. I'll cede the point, though.

That doesn't change the fact that almost any U/R deck will become better if you splash another color. Tarmogoyf is the most obvious color to splash.

[FoolofaTook]

Sure, red has artifact removal, but none of those cards are versatile enough to maindeck. I'll cede the point, though.

That doesn't change the fact that almost any U/R deck will become better if you splash another color. Tarmogoyf is the most obvious color to splash.

The problem with splashing green is that it opens the deck up to more hate from wastelands and it probably removes Back to Basics or Blood Moon as sideboard options. That and that it becomes almost irresistible to run Kird Ape then and before you know it you have a Threshold deck going.

It's just really interesting to me how few good R/U decks have been built over the years given the obvious desire to have both control and damage in large numbers in a deck.

I'm almost wondering if Force of Will works against a R/U concept because it requires such a large complement of blue spells to be effective? I could see 16 red, 10 blue and 10 artifacts being very strong if well-constructed due to the ability to have alpha-striking Atogs in the mix.

[Pinder]

The problem with splashing green is that it opens the deck up to more hate from wastelands and it probably removes Back to Basics or Blood Moon as sideboard options.

Right, right, but it adds Tarmogoyf as a total beat-the-everloving-shit-out of-my-opponent-until-they-cry option, which I find more than makes up for it.

[Happy Gilmore]

I can't remember the last time Wateland made me lose the game while playing UGR. Trinisphere +1 wasteland....sure. Even a two color deck can get screwed by Wasteland especially if the mana curve is awful.

[Citrus-God]

I can't remember the last time Wateland made me lose the game while playing UGR. Trinisphere +1 wasteland....sure. Even a two color deck can get screwed by Wasteland especially if the mana curve is awful.

Agreed here. 10 1cc cantrips with 17 lands, that should be enough lands for you.

[Obfuscate Freely]

The problem with splashing green is that it opens the deck up to more hate from wastelands and it probably removes Back to Basics or Blood Moon as sideboard options. That and that it becomes almost irresistible to run Kird Ape then and before you know it you have a Threshold deck going.

It's just really interesting to me how few good R/U decks have been built over the years given the obvious desire to have both control and damage in large numbers in a deck.

I'm almost wondering if Force of Will works against a R/U concept because it requires such a large complement of blue spells to be effective? I could see 16 red, 10 blue and 10 artifacts being very strong if well-constructed due to the ability to have alpha-striking Atogs in the mix.
I don't really understand how to reply here. I have provided you with a proven, tournament-winning deck with lots of blue and red cards in it. Does it somehow not qualify as a "good R/U deck?"

What is a "R/U concept?" Colors are not strategies.

[kirdape3]

There was a time when U/R decks were at the very pinnacle of their metagames. Behold.

Kai Budde, GP Vienna Champion
1 Brainstorm
2 Arcane Denial
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Frantic Search
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
3 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Palinchron
3 Stroke of Genius
4 Time Spiral
3 Turnabout

16 Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Thawing Glaciers

Sideboard:
2 Null Rod
4 Hydroblast
4 Ophidian
4 Pyroblast
1 Mountain

Jon Finkel, T8 Grand Prix Kansas City
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Frantic Search
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
1 Intuition
4 Merchant Scroll
2 Stroke of Genius
4 Time Spiral
4 Turnabout

13 Island
4 Thawing Glaciers
4 Volcanic Islands

Sideboard
3 Null Rod
4 Hydroblast
4 Pyroblast
1 Mountain
3 Wasteland

But but but, you say, those were dirty combo decks that only had a couple of red cards in them! That doesn't count.

Fine.

"THE FORBIDDEN PHOENIX", 1998
Randy Buehler

Main Deck

14 Island
10 Mountain
4 Reflecting Pool
1 Caldera Lake

4 Shard Phoenix
1 Mogg Fanatic
4 Intuition
4 Mana Leak
4 Counterspell
4 Forbid
2 Dismiss
4 Shock
3 Capsize
1 Scroll Rack

Sideboard

3 Mogg Fanatic
3 Portcullis
3 Thalakos Drifters
3 Shattering Pulse
1 Dismiss
2 Stalking Stones

Here, red cards do two things: Blunt the offense of the beatdown decks and provide a lategame grinding card advantage engine against the control decks.

4 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Faerie Conclave
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
3 Null Rod
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spiketail Hatchling
2 Voidmage Prodigy
1 Gorilla Shaman
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Curiosity
2 Daze
1 Misdirection
1 Stifle
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

Sideboard
3 Rack and Ruin
2 Fire / Ice
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Maze of Ith
1 Stifle
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Energy Flux
1 Pyroblast
1 Null Rod
1 Crucible of Worlds

This was the pinnacle of 2004 technology. When you weren't busy disrupting the mana of decks far more disgusting than this one, you were outdrawing them 2 or more to 1 with Curiosity on some completely unexciting creature. This one is the closest in actual metagame role to the current UGR threshold decks, except that instead of mana denial those decks can just make Tarmogoyfs and kill you.

Currently, strictly U/R decks aren't as good because well, they're not equipped to handle 5/6s or better for G1. When you play them yourself however, they're the best deck in the format.

[FoolofaTook]

I don't really understand how to reply here. I have provided you with a proven, tournament-winning deck with lots of blue and red cards in it. Does it somehow not qualify as a "good R/U deck?"

What is a "R/U concept?" Colors are not strategies.

The deck you've provided is a good deck. It's not R/U, it's R/U/g. The question is why decks that are just R/U are not viable. R/U/w, R/U/g and maybe even R/U/b are all viable and have all won at various points in the timeline. Of the primary colors used U/W, U/G, R/W, R/G, U/B and even R/B have all been able to put together fairly strong options consistently, R/U has not. That poses the interesting question of why two colors that consistently add to winning decks individually cannot combine to make a winning deck.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Because blue adds card draw, card selection, and counters. Red adds land destruction, direct damage and thus creature control, and Goblins. Goblins all ready had card draw and selection, and thus has little need for blue. Land destruction is a poor strategy in general for numerous reasons. That leaves direct damage. If you add counters, cantrips, and card draw to the philosophy of fire, you find yourself being dragged down by a lot of dead weight.

The Philosophy of Fire says cards = damage. I start with 7 cards, and draw one a turn. How many cards do I need to deal 20 damage to my opponent? And how fast can I do this?

FoW and Brainstorm aren't going to help you. They're just more cards that aren't damage. There's no room for dead weight in the PoF.

So without LD, direct damage, or Goblins, what's your offensive strategy? All you've got left is Fish, without Grunt or Confidant or Tarmogoyf. So why would you want that?

[FoolofaTook]

Wouldn't you think that card draw and card advantage, both of which blue provides, would go just fine with burn, which really wants to draw as many damage spells as it can?

I agree with you that it doesn't but that just adds to my questions since it should.

As examples, why is Standstill not a great card in a burn deck? Why is Brainstorm, which can turn two useless lands into two burn spells at the end of the opponent's turn, not a great card in a burn deck?

The argument that adding a color creates additional uncertainty in the mana draw has validity, however U/W decks rarely ran into problems with exactly the kind of mix you'd be talking about if you added 7 or 8 blue draw to a burn deck.

The thing that's interesting is that the main weakness in burn decks is they don't have enough draw and they peter out after a few turns and allow the opponent to stabilize. The other big weakness is that they can get locked down by control and slowly strangled. Adding blue would help in both situations.

At this point let me reiterate that I agree that adding blue to burn just doesn't work, however it's mystifying because it seems like it *should* work.

[Citrus-God]

The deck you've provided is a good deck. It's not R/U, it's R/U/g. The question is why decks that are just R/U are not viable. R/U/w, R/U/g and maybe even R/U/b are all viable and have all won at various points in the timeline. Of the primary colors used U/W, U/G, R/W, R/G, U/B and even R/B have all been able to put together fairly strong options consistently, R/U has not. That poses the interesting question of why two colors that consistently add to winning decks individually cannot combine to make a winning deck.

The thing about Hatfield Grow is that that is the closest thing you will get to BSS in Legacy. It makes lots of early 1-for-1 trades, it plays it's threats around midgame, and it can pull counters out of it's ass like crazy. Also, Predict is the Fact or Fiction of Legacy.

[Pinder]

Also, Predict is the Fact or Fiction of Legacy.

One might contend that Fact or Fiction is the Fact or Fiction of Legacy. Last I checked it was still legal.

[Citrus-God]

One might contend that Fact or Fiction is the Fact or Fiction of Legacy. Last I checked it was still legal.

The point still stands that Hatfield Grow is the BSS of Legacy, meaning Predict functions the same way as FoF in Hatfield Grow.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

What is this "Hatfield Grow" and "BBS" you speak of?

@Main topic: If I recall correctly, "Izzet Tron" was a popular control deck that saw some success in standard and extended (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/fk9).

[SuckerPunch]

I think it's possible to build a viable r/u deck. But I don't think it will ever be optimal for one simple reason.

For the most part, all that red and blue offer are answers, but a deck needs efficent threats as well in order to be optimal.

Red has some of the best removal in the game, blue has great countermagic. Both are answers.

What neither color has are efficent threats. And without that, the colors just don't work well by themselves. Not without splashing green for the efficent threats.

Now, of course there is one exception as always.

Red has goblins which are solid threats when used together, though I see no reason why the deck would want to splash blue.

And blue has serendib efreet/sea drake/maelstrom djinn/infiltrator il kor which work great together.

But once again, I really don't think splashing red into fairie stompy adds much to the deck eventhough people are doing it anyways.

[Citrus-God]

What is this "Hatfield Grow" and "BBS" you speak of?

lol.... sarcasm gets old usually.

Hatfield Gro is a cantrippy deck that utlizes cantrips to find answer, threats, and other cantrips to keep the chain going. It answer every revelent threat until midgame, where it drops weaker but less expensive "Morphlings" like Tarmogoyf, and Nimble Mongeese.

BSS is an aggressive Monoblue Control deck in Vintage. It plays like Monoblue Control until midgame, and then the following options are presented to you

1. Drop Morphling and win with tons of counters backed up.
2. Play FoF and continue the annoyance.
3. Play Back to Basics and wreck their mana base.

Of course, if they get rid of Morphling, you replace that Morphling with another Morphling drawn from the FoF or Impulse being casted. Like Threshold, it has a need to replace threats that were answered or died in combat.

Hatfield Grow, unlike BSS, plays the Midgame role very well, which allows it to survive in the Creature heavy format.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Hatfield Gro is a cantrippy deck that utlizes cantrips to find answer, threats, and other cantrips to keep the chain going. It answer every revelent threat until midgame, where it drops weaker but less expensive "Morphlings" like Tarmogoyf, and Nimble Mongeese.So, Threshold?

BSS is an aggressive Monoblue Control deck in Vintage. It plays like Monoblue Control until midgame, and then the following options are presented to you

1. Drop Morphling and win with tons of counters backed up.
2. Play FoF and continue the annoyance.
3. Play Back to Basics and wreck their mana base.

Of course, if they get rid of Morphling, you replace that Morphling with another Morphling drawn from the FoF or Impulse being casted. Like Threshold, it has a need to replace threats that were answered or died in combat.That just seems like "modern" mono-blue control. Unless it's one of those crazy vintage things that only works because of the acceleration and other power in the format.
lol.... sarcasm gets old usually.I just needed a way of saying "What are you talking about?" without directly asking that.

[Citrus-God]

So, Threshold?

Not just Threshold, just that particular variant.


That just seems like "modern" mono-blue control.

This was way back then when Fact or Fiction was unrestricted. It just seems that playing Threshold was very closest to playing BSS, considering it does make a lot of 1-for-1 trades, rebuilds itself with card advantage, and plays it's threats Midgame.



Unless it's one of those crazy vintage things that only works because of the acceleration and other power in the format.I just needed a way of saying "What are you talking about?" without directly asking that.

Not really. The deck lacks acceleration, so decks like Thresh use cantrips to find free counters to disrupt the opponent early in the game. So instead of going Island, Mox, Mana Leak,. you just play some Island, cast a cantrip, and pass the turn.

[cheddercaveman]

I feel like the real issue is that red hasn't gotten any really good non-combo cards in the last couple of years. Between TS and Rav there have only been a few red cards that are even decent (Blood Knight, Char, Demonfire, Bogarden Hellkite) and I don't think really any of them are played in legacy. The second issue is that in the past there are realistically only 2 kinds of good red cards. Efficient burn and goblins. Neither of those have improved in recent memory, and nothing new in red has been able to take their place. In legacy the best burn is still lightning bolt and chain lightning, they won't be printing anything better than that. Goblins in legacy is already stupid broken.

Blue has gotten some gems here and there, none of them are really creatures that would compliment red. If you want to play fast blue damage, just play faerie stompy. If you want to play control-ish decks, sure you can play landstill with red, but other than that your going to probably want black or white complimenting the blue for good removal.

There used to be some U/R fish, but now its just not good enough. 2 damage from grim lavamancer doesnt kill enough, and it still dies. And really another massive issue is that Tarmogoyf gets out of burn range waaay to fast. I'd rather be playing threads of disloyalty over burn these days.

[kabal]

Currently, strictly U/R decks aren't as good because well, they're not equipped to handle 5/6s or better for G1.


Raymond Robillard - Ur Landstill
Top 8 Legacy Championships Prelim Tournament
(http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=welcome/conventions/gencon07#2)