[Brainstorming] Tarmogoyf.

[DragoFireheart]

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=136142

Name: Tarmogoyf
Set & Rarity: Future Sight rare
Printings:
Cost:
Card Type: Creature - Lhurgoyf
P/T: */1+*
Rules Text (Oracle): Tarmogoyf's power is equal to the number of card types among cards in all graveyards and its toughness is equal to that number plus 1.

It's like some sort of bad Internet fad or something: almost any deck that can run green runs Tarmogoyf.

Take this article on W/U/G Threshhold deck from Star City:

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14314.html

I like how the author notes that graveyard hate does not cause problems for Goyf.

While magic has seen many different kinds of cards, I think it is safe to say that gofy is probably the first cheap beater that could fit into any deck. It doesn't take any investment to make great use of him and aside from a few select decks like goblins, almost every deck will be putting cards into their graveyards. Any aggro or aggro/control deck that can afford to splash green should use him.

I'm not suggesting that goyf is the end all be all, but he is quite good. What I would like to know is:

-Could an aggro-type deck be made to have a small amount of synergy with him?
-Should a deck run cheap and varied spells [Seal of Fire, Mishra's Bauble, etc] to help feed goyf to avoid relying solely on their opponent to feed the graveyard?
-What color splashs make best use of him? [U/G, U/G/R, R/G, U/B/G, etc.]
-Are there any cards as of now that support goyf or synergize with him?

I ask these questions because I am making a R/G aggro deck that I am considering to splash black with, for Duress and other black disruption [and maybe some black creatures].

[Citrus-God]

I've seen a list where someone built a RGB Burning Wish Aggro-Control deck using him. I slapped mine together and thought it was clever. It runs MDed Therapies and Duresses, and Wish for hosers as well as Regrowth for more badass-ness. In the Sideboard, there's sadly only 3-4 metagame slots, which can be Extirpates, Pernicious Deeds, or Engineered Plagues.

It was something like...


// Lands 21
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
4 Bayou
3 Badlands


// Creatures 19
4 Kird Ape
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness


// Spells 21
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Burning Wish
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy


// Sideboard 15
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Pyroclasm
1 Cave-In
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Perish
1 Anarchy
1 Tsunami
1 Regrowth
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
1 Void
4 Pernicious Deed


I saw hardly any synergy... it just has tons of cheap and efficient beaters to capitalize on Burning Wish. The cheap beaters also allow it to answer early game threats, and Burning Wish gives the deck a cheap answer to EtW via Cave-In.

This may spark a discussion or two.

[DragoFireheart]

See, I was never really fond of Skyshroud Elite as it is useless against any mono-colored decks. I'd rather run some other 1-drop like mogg fanatic.

Also, why not include Burning-Tree Shaman? He's a nice fatty for his cost.

[Ophidian]

Seal of Fire should probably replace Chain Lightning since it's an easy to get an enchantment in the 'yard

[Citrus-God]

See, I was never really fond of Skyshroud Elite as it is useless against any mono-colored decks. I'd rather run some other 1-drop like mogg fanatic.

I honestly cant think of a Monocolored deck that is viable in 1.5 right now outside of Sui Black.


Also, why not include Burning-Tree Shaman? He's a nice fatty for his cost.

It is probably because he isnt cheap and efficient, and with the rise of Goyf, he cant compete in combat.

@Ophidian: You're probably right, Chain Lightning should be Seal of Fire.

[DragoFireheart]

I honestly cant think of a Monocolored deck that is viable in 1.5 right now outside of Sui Black.

Fairy Stompy? Dragon Stompy?

[Edit: Nevermind they run non-basics too]

Yeah I know I'm kinda reaching for something here. >_>

Point taken. I don't have 4 of those elves atm. Whats a good placeholder until then?


It is probably because he isnt cheap and efficient, and with the rise of Goyf, he cant compete in combat.

Huh? How is 3 for a 3/4 and a ping affect for activated abilities a bad deal?

[Kronicler]

Because you could just pay 2 for a 4/5 and smash face.

Kronicler

[DragoFireheart]

Because you could just pay 2 for a 4/5 and smash face.

Kronicler

Well, I already got the 4/5 to smash face with.

I want more fatties to smash face with you see. :laugh:

So.... no Tree dude?

[kirdape3]

Just because you want to pump up your Tarmogoyf does not mean that it allows you to run less efficient burn spells. Seal of Fire doesn't do as much when Tarmogoyf isn't around as Chain Lightning does - and there will be games where Tarmogoyf simply doesn't appear in your hand.

[DragoFireheart]

Just because you want to pump up your Tarmogoyf does not mean that it allows you to run less efficient burn spells. Seal of Fire doesn't do as much when Tarmogoyf isn't around as Chain Lightning does - and there will be games where Tarmogoyf simply doesn't appear in your hand.

Chain Lightning, while doing more damage, is a sorcery and can be bounced back at my creatures. With Seal of Fire not only can I feed my Goyf with a card type that is normally hard to send to the graveyard, I can cast it to clrear out a threat later on in the game without needing to use mana.

[Solpugid]

There are most certainly viable mono-colored decks in Legacy. Angel and faerie stompy are, stax can be mono-colored, and...um...solidarity? Anyway, most mono-colored decks take advantage of their stable color requirements by adding NON-basic lands. This, you see, improves skyshroud elite. I don't think that card gets enough respect.

I think people underestimate seal of fire as well. It's pseudo-insant speed is excellent, and it helps that it counts as an enchantment towards goyf-counting. However, the most important aspect of seal is its "down-payment". Legacy is very much about budgeting your usually scarce amounts of mana, and seal allows you to play a burn spell whenever you have the mana available, and kill a creature later.

While chain lightning can also be bounced back at you, I don't think this is a good reason not to run it because you can then bounce it back yourself (on occasion). So I would only include chain over seal if there were a lot of 3-toughness guys around, and seeing as how they are scarce in Legacy (not counting mongoose of course), I would go with seal.

[FoolofaTook]

Tarmogoyf is going to become the first cheap beater ever to be banned. It's just too good for G1, and it has no downside. No sacrifice, no life cost, no damage per turn.

It'll show up in a huge number of the aggro and aggro/control decks including most of the creature-based non-goblin decks that make it to day 2 in the big tourneys and then it will be banned.

It's like Erhnam Djinn only it costs half as much and does not give the other player any corresponding advantage.

Banned.

[Kronicler]

I cannot see Goyf being banned, but you bring up some good points, FoolofaTook. A creature that will normally be a 4/5 and can get larger that costs 2 mana, can be easily splashed for, and has no drawback seems... well, rediculous when you think about it. I mean, if you asked almost anyone 2 months ago (or 3 or 4, just before FS came out) if wotc would print a card like I discribed above, they would have said no freakin way, yet here we are, with that exact card. It's splashability is also obscene and splashing for goyf can and will help most aggro control decks. About a week after it was spoiled a friend of mine splashed for it in his deadguy deck and all of a sudden he had a near 50/50 gobos matchup and his usually slow clock had greatly quickened. Goyf is just that good.

Kronicler

[C.P.]

Tarmogoyf is going to become the first cheap beater ever to be banned. It's just too good for G1, and it has no downside. No sacrifice, no life cost, no damage per turn.

It'll show up in a huge number of the aggro and aggro/control decks including most of the creature-based non-goblin decks that make it to day 2 in the big tourneys and then it will be banned.

It's like Erhnam Djinn only it costs half as much and does not give the other player any corresponding advantage.

Banned.

Goyf is good, but I cannot see it banned. I don't see why it should be. Eternal format, by nature, has many cards that defies curve. StP or Lightning Bolt is a obscene card by modern defenition. probably just as obscene as a 2 mana 5/6. It's just that we are not used to a creature that brakes the curve this much. Psychatog was worshiped as the best creature, and If i remember correctly, some people though it was ban worthy. But is it? Of course, Goyf is the tog on crack. It is probably times better. However, that does not change the fact that it is mere creature. I don't think Goyf is more broken then W: get rid of anything that is creature. We just need the time to get used to it.

[Citrus-God]

From the list so far...

-3 Chain Lightning
-4 Skyshroud Elite
-1 Land

+4 DARK CONFIDANT!!!!!
+3 Seal of Fire



As for the monocolored discussion, I didnt see Wombat. Sorry about that.

[Jak]

I am actually not sure about Goyfy. Cards are usually banned because they distort the format. Well when aggro-control keeps getting better and every fish type deck plays him, I think he is a problem. I mean every deck is either running him or has to have answers for him. He does distort the format. but he is still just a creature, so...

[Meekrab]

Has a creature that does nothing but turn sideways to deal damage ever been banned in the history of the DCI? This isn't a loaded question, I'm legitimately curious. I don't keep up with block/standard/extended bans.

I'm sort of mixed as to how I feel. On the one hand, I want to call Goyf the Brainstorm of creatures and ask how is it bad that everyone recognizes one card as better than others like it, and thus plays that one instead of Grizzly Bears? It's not like people enter tournaments to lose.

On the other hand, Tarmogoyf is on the far right side of the power bell curve of two drops. He's like four-standard-deviations-from-the-mean stupid good did-R+D-test-this-thing ludicrous. (Actually, I just checked on MWS. Not counting Gold, there are 1003 two drop creatures. So yeah, 4th sigma. I'm awesome.)

[Illissius]

Ravager is banned in Mirrodin block, but it's not quite vanilla.

[Nihil Credo]

People aren't complaining about 'Goyf because he is too hard to deal with. People are complaining about 'Goyf because he makes every other 1C creature either obsolete or a lame backup. Lightning Bolt and Counterspell+FoW have been doing that to direct damage and countermagic (respectively) for years, and today it seems perfectly normal to us.
In a few years, we'll be used to the idea of Tarmogoyf being the king of creatures, just as Swords to Plowshares is the king of removal.

[FoolofaTook]

It's going to be banned because it makes every other beater look weak in comparison.

I completely agree that creatures are not normally what you would think of as bannable material, but that's because they by and large follow a set curve that leaves value in all of the good ones to some extent or another.

Green's creatures are better, because that's what green does, however Tarmogoyf is the first creature that essentially says "I'm going to be bigger and badder than anything other than another Tarmogoyf in the first two or three turns."

A realistic shot at a 4/5 on turn two with no sacrifices involved just breaks the definition of what a creature is in the Magic world. You don't have to blow a mana acceleration card to do it either, just drop two lands and use one of them to fetch a third after cantripping on turn one. Assuming your opponent has just sat there and done nothing Tarmogoyf lands as a 2/3 with no sacrifice involved and then your chain lightning or portent or whatever makes him a 3/4 the next turn before he attacks. You get the 4/5 if you sent a zero CC artifact to the graveyard sometime in the process.

There are two possibilities to deal with Tarmogoyf systemically as an overpowered threat: first WoTC could print a slew of under-costed overpowered creatures in each color, maintaining Tarmogoyf at the top of the curve or near it and effectively redefining creature damage in the process, or they could print some more cards like Humility that effectively strip all creatures of their special abilities and power.

In the first case the tendency towards aggro-control would expand out of all proportion to its current presence in the meta and games would become even faster Sumo wrestling matches, with aggro-control and combo competing for 3 and 4 turn wins.

In the second case creatures would effectively be driven out of the meta as contributors to top end decks, leaving combo as the likely overall winner.

Tarmogoyf just distorts the meta in a way that is harmful to the whole and in support of an archetype that is already strong.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Has Tarmogoyf warped the format, or changed it?


That's the essential question for those of you clamouring to ban it. My own answer is for change, but even then, not all that much. Before Tarmogoyf, Werebear tended to fill the 2cc green fattie role--and let's face it, Werebear isn't that much worse than Tarmogoyf (the Goyf is clearly better, but Werebear is quite mighty). Yes, he's the best green creature since Wild Mongrel--but how many decks played Mongrel before Tarmogoyf? How many do now? Very, very few. Odd, for a creature reputed the best for so long. There's obviously a difference: Mongrel requries you to get rid of cards in your hand, which is usually a net disadvantage. Goyf justs sits around, perma-big. Nevertheless, that Mongrel was the "best" green creature for so long (and yet saw so little play) would seem to indicate that Green was fundamentally under-powered in the creature department when it came to Legacy. And yet, Green is supposed to have the "best" (by which we tend to mean better power-cost ratios, not fancy super-good abilities) creatures...

Honestly, I don't think that Green was doing so well as a colour. That is, in Legacy. There weren't too many (generic; in highly specialised decklists, of course: that holds true for any and every colour) reasons to be splashing it aside from fairly narrow strategies (Threshold, Slivers, Survival of the Fittest [as a card; as far as Survival's creatures go, they're mostly utility creatures; read: non-green] etc.; Life from the Loam being a significant exception, among a couple others). Green had good cards, but few worth splashing for outside of a specialised deck-context, none of which are/were all too broad in their application. Green has powerful creatures, yes, but they all cost waaaaaay too much to play seriously in Legacy.

Tarmogoyf has, in my opinion, rejuvenated green, especially in Legacy. As a direct consequence of splashing for the Goyf, green and green cards are receiving more attention than ever (well, that's the logical conclusion). He has, however, created a significant problem: a power creep. For those who don't know, it's when you follow the first suggestion above this post and print increasingly powerful cards to normalize a single powerhouse (ex. Urza Block). The solution is not to ban Tarmogoyf, but rather to accept him as both an oddity and a Godsend, and leave it at that (in terms of card power-levels).

Goyf is broken, yes. He's also shifted attention in the format back to green. Has he "warped" it? Honestly, I don't think so: he just places himself in slots previously occupied by slightly inferior cards. He doesn't, to take up the well-known example of Goblin Lackey, force you to acknowledge your very first turn: he doesn't reduce the point at which you lose (not physically, but when you lose control) to the very first turn. I fully realise that "A is less broken than B" is not a valid argument against banning A; what I'm trying to demonstrate is not levels of brokenness, but rather I'm trying to highlight the difference between a broken card and one that warps a format. Whether or not the format-warping that ensues is positive or negative for the format is an entirely different kettle of fish. Yes, Tarmogoyf raises the bar a little; what's important to realize is that it was a pretty damn low bar for Green to begin with. Tarmogoyf has given the colour a sharp push into the edge of the circle of relevance; hopefully, more shoves and prods will follow, although (hopefully) not as drastic as that one was.

[C.P.]

It's going to be banned because it makes every other beater look weak in comparison.

I said this above, but StP will not get banned just because it is better than any removals out there. Same as the goyf. You are panicking just because you're not used to seeing it. You'll get used to it soon enough, as you got used to a an one mana instant that gets rid of any creature and other obscene cards that you take as granted because they were there for such a long time.

[cheddercaveman]

I think that in a format with the best removal in the history of the game, a "vanilla" undercosted beater, in a color that is largely not gotten much to its namesake over the years is fine. It still dies to about 90% of the relevant removal in the format. It doesnt really get bigger any faster than playing out slivers in countersliver (yes not a terrific example) and its still comparable to werebear. Personally I'd be happier if he was GG instead of 1G because then he wouldnt be in essentially every aggro-control deck that exists. He's still just a vanilla creature that beats. There are inifinite solutions to this in the format. Sure he invalidates a lot of other 2 drops, but WoTC has been doing that for a while now, is dark confidant not in 99% of all black decks now? Jotun Grunt is in anything white that turns guys sideways (either side or main) and his "drawback" is actually the bigger reason for playing him. We'll all be just fine I think.

[Finn]

People aren't complaining about 'Goyf because he is too hard to deal with. People are complaining about 'Goyf because he makes every other 1C creature either obsolete or a lame backup. Lightning Bolt and Counterspell+FoW have been doing that to direct damage and countermagic (respectively) for years, and today it seems perfectly normal to us.
In a few years, we'll be used to the idea of Tarmogoyf being the king of creatures, just as Swords to Plowshares is the king of removal.qft

It wasn't even three months ago that I saw a thread in here asking "What would it take to make green worth playing?" or something to that extent. Amongst all the calls for a green FoW and a green storm hoser, etc. I said "Tarmogoyf".

White has the best removal: stp.
Red has the best direct dmg: bolt.
Blue has FoW.
Black has Duress/Hymn.
Green had ? - now it has Tarmogoyf.


Every color now has its strengths. That critter is great for this format.
This is a fine topic for discussion, but Nihil answered the question imo.

[HPC]

As combo gets faster so should aggro. And as the fundamental turn adjusts it needs to do so for all archetypes. The problem I see, is it's becoming harder and harder for pure control to keep up because Storm requires a very specialized set of cards to counter it and Tarmogoyf presents a very quick, strong threat that also needs to be dealt with immediately. I think WotC's next step should provide control with more cards to handle these onslaughts. Most of the board wipers normally associated with pure control, including Wrath of God and Nevernyl's Disk, are now too slow for the format, especially since Mana Drain has been banned. And if there was ever a reason for reprinting StP it would be the Goyf.

So power creep isn't the solution to Goyf. They're not going to print more and more powerful creatures to block the Goyf because if they do they'll just be increasing the redundancy of fast, cheap, powerful creatures in aggro decks. The Goyf will represent the top of the heap for creatures, as green should.

WotC should do what it's always done, print cards that erode the power of currently printed cards. I mean a 1 or 2 mana card that says "Choose one: destroy target creature with CC 2 or less; or, return all creatures of the same name to owner's hand" would be sufficient in giving control back... uh... control.

[Solpugid]

WotC should do what it's always done, print cards that erode the power of currently printed cards. I mean a 1 or 2 mana card that says "Choose one: destroy target creature with CC 2 or less; or, return all creatures of the same name to owner's hand" would be sufficient in giving control back... uh... control.

Uh, like smother. I don't think smother gets the play it deserves, it really is a fantastic answer to a lot of things: mana creatures, nantuko shade, hyppie, tarmogoyf, dark confidant, wild mongrel, goblin piledriver, goblin warchief, lackey, silver knight, morphed angel, sea drake, etc etc.

That said, I would love to see this card printed:

Mini-wrath
1WW/2W
Sorcery
Destroy all creatures with converted mana cost 2 or less

It would give UW landstill, or other W control decks in general, a better ability to handle the weenie rushes that are so common in goblins, combo decks, and aggro (with tarmogoyf or otherwise). I think we agree that wrath is too slow half the time, but it is usually the little creatures that kill us. Enter mini-wrath.

Tarmogoyf on its own is really not that special. He is amazingly efficient, that's true, but he is not the be-all end-all creature, and does not deserve the banhammer. I've played games with Threshold (UGW) where he was a 3/4 on turn 4 or 5, with seven cards in my graveyard. I wished he was a werebear, obviously. There will always be times like this, where he'll seem good, but not the best. There are decks where he'll consistently get huge, but they often have to be built with him growing in mind. That alone is the "investment" that some people are saying doesn't need to be made to get tarmogoyf big.

For example, there are decks running pernicious deed to add an enchantment to the grave. While deed and goyf are both great cards they do NOT synergize well at all. In reality, goyf doesn't offer synergy with anything beyond getting bigger. Wild mongrel allows madness strategies, dredging, and dodges black removal. Dark confidant outdraws your opponent if left unchecked. Spectral lynx sits and laughs at goyf AND deed all day. I'm not claiming that these 2cc creatures are better than goyf (because they aren't), but they all add something to the table that goyf doesn't.

This tarmogoyf craze will die down in a while, and he'll settle into the decks that use him well. That will be maybe 3, but these decks will still lose to Landstill (I predict), which is increasing in numbers. Time will tell, but I seriously doubt he will "break Legacy".

[FoolofaTook]

I said this above, but StP will not get banned just because it is better than any removals out there. Same as the goyf. You are panicking just because you're not used to seeing it. You'll get used to it soon enough, as you got used to a an one mana instant that gets rid of any creature and other obscene cards that you take as granted because they were there for such a long time.

I've been using Swords to Plowshares since my very first tournament deck back in early 1994. It does NOT get rid of any creature, just the creatures that do not have Protection from White or Shroud. If it got rid of any creature for 1 mana it would be banned.

The problem with Tarmogoyf is that it breaks the rules for what a creature should be. There are lots of creatures, like Kird Ape and Werebear and Serra Avenger and even Serendib Efreet and Sea Drake, that have a very strong cost to benefit ratio if you can get them out early in the game. These creatures all have significant drawbacks that also come into play and that can make them a poor top deck in the midgame depending on what else has happened to that point.

Tarmogoyf is ALWAYS a great pull. Early on the Goyf lands pretty easily as a 2/3 or 3/4 and then in the midgame he's a 5/6 or 6/7. You sacrifice nothing at all for playing him and he scales above the normal creature power for any phase of the game he lands in. Early he's bigger than the weenies and late he's bigger than the finishers. Even though he doesn't fly he's going to roll over anything put in front of him that's even a remotely reasonable creature to actually play in a competive game of Magic.

This is a no-brainer. Legacy is not a format to be dominated by a single under-costed beater with no drawbacks. Legacy really should not be a "you have to play Swords to Plowshares" meta, but that's close to what it will be if Tarmogoyf stays in the meta.

BTW, if Tarmogoyf cost GG1 he'd be a much more reasonable beater and in line with the current strength of the format.

Why would you ever put a big finisher in a deck over the Tarmogoyf? Phyrexian Negator is probably the biggest under-costed midgame beater at the moment and he has a huge downside as an early play. Tarmogoyf has no downside.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

While I've said what I feel needs to be said, I do want to add one thing:


With Lorwyn, Tarmogoyf will have the possibility of becoming an 8/9 beatstick rather than his current (but unlikely) 7/8. :tongue:

[FoolofaTook]

Let me ask a question here just to clarify:

Would people consider the following creature to be broken if it existed?

Mutavore

Casting cost GX

Mutavore has power equal to X+1 and toughness equal to X+2. X must be at least 1 or Mutavore is removed from the game without entering play.

That's basically what Tarmogoyf is only he costs G1 but will come into play as though the 1 was the maximum X available on any turn up until about turn 5.

[kicks_422]

White has the best removal: stp.
Red has the best direct dmg: bolt.
Blue has FoW.
Black has Duress/Hymn.
Green had ? - now it has Tarmogoyf.


Right on. C'mon people, give green some love for a change.

[Citrus-God]

I love how each color either has a threat or disruption, but Green.... just has a threat.

Also, I think you should all ask yourselves this question when Gifts Ungiven got restricted in Vintage...

What is the real problem: Gifts Ungiven, or Merchant Scroll?

[Jak]

I love that green has a good beater, but it is not like people are going out and building a mono green deck with him. People are splashing for him, just like Thresh splashes green for it and mongoose.

[MattH]

Green's best cards have always been most broken in non-green decks. From Sylvan Library, to Oath, to Survival, to Quirion Dryad, :1::g: cards have a long history of being broken in non-base-green (and usually base-blue) decks.

Welcome to the club, Tarmogoyf.

EDIT: And Loam, how could I forget thee!

[Solpugid]

And loam, don't forget loam.

I never noticed that...huh. Why is 1G so busted?

[dontbiteitholmes]

I've been using Swords to Plowshares since my very first tournament deck back in early 1994. It does NOT get rid of any creature, just the creatures that do not have Protection from White or Shroud. If it got rid of any creature for 1 mana it would be banned.

The problem with Tarmogoyf is that it breaks the rules for what a creature should be. There are lots of creatures, like Kird Ape and Werebear and Serra Avenger and even Serendib Efreet and Sea Drake, that have a very strong cost to benefit ratio if you can get them out early in the game. These creatures all have significant drawbacks that also come into play and that can make them a poor top deck in the midgame depending on what else has happened to that point.

Tarmogoyf is ALWAYS a great pull. Early on the Goyf lands pretty easily as a 2/3 or 3/4 and then in the midgame he's a 5/6 or 6/7. You sacrifice nothing at all for playing him and he scales above the normal creature power for any phase of the game he lands in. Early he's bigger than the weenies and late he's bigger than the finishers. Even though he doesn't fly he's going to roll over anything put in front of him that's even a remotely reasonable creature to actually play in a competive game of Magic.

This is a no-brainer. Legacy is not a format to be dominated by a single under-costed beater with no drawbacks. Legacy really should not be a "you have to play Swords to Plowshares" meta, but that's close to what it will be if Tarmogoyf stays in the meta.

BTW, if Tarmogoyf cost GG1 he'd be a much more reasonable beater and in line with the current strength of the format.

Why would you ever put a big finisher in a deck over the Tarmogoyf? Phyrexian Negator is probably the biggest under-costed midgame beater at the moment and he has a huge downside as an early play. Tarmogoyf has no downside.

Wow can you possibly be more wrong in every post? Swords would not be banned if it could beat out protection from white and shroud, that would give it less then a handful of relevent creatures it could hit that it can't now (Anything but Mongoose? I can't think of anything else, maybe Sky Swallower in Reanimater LOL). Goyf is not ban worthy by any means, he's just really good.
PS- Your examples are confused and irrelevant if not just plain old wrong.

[FakeSpam]

Green sucks. Your shiny new undercosted vanilla beater isn't going to change that.

[Bane of the Living]

Green sucks. Your shiny new undercosted vanilla beater isn't going to change that.

You obviously dont play magic anymore.

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=631

Five out of eight decks are running goyf in the 78 person tourny. The other three decks are Belcher, Solidarity, and some white blue deck that should be splashing for him.

Also check out the results from Gencon. I believe half the decks ran a slate of him.

[MattH]

So green cards are awesome when they're in blue decks. I guess it's nature's revenge! SPRING FORTH, BURLY WOODSMEN! YOUR TIME IS AT HAND! THUS BEGINS THE ERA OF GREEN, MAY IT LAST A THOUSAND SUMMERS!!

[Silverdragon]

Another Top 8 from Germany
http://www.zkforum.de/showpost.php?p=496490&postcount=54

23 players, 19 Tarmogoyfs in the Top 8. Should have been 21 but my friend couldn't get the last two he needed before the tournament started. Notice that there were 4 Goblin, 2 Boros and 1 Zoo present and only a single Threshold list played Pyroclasm (in the sideboard nonetheless). Tarmogoyf is clearly the biggest threat right now even more so than Empty the Warrens.

[SuckerPunch]

As I posted elsewhere, Tarmogoyf finally gave green it's staple card. And I really don't think we need any more staples that every single serious player absolutely needs to get four copies of that are outragously overpriced.

[Nihil Credo]

As a non-collector I ask: should the price and availability of Tarmogoyf really be an issue in a format where 90% of the decks require dual lands? At least it was printed in a good set, unlike Pithing Needle originally was.

[Hummingbird TG]

If it cost GG, Tarmogoyf would be less splashable...although I guess it needs to be unfair to compare to the various other creatures in the format... Mongoose is a 3/3 Shroud for G, Ringleader is a walking FoF, Lackey is a re-usable Lotus, Confidant is a walking Phyrexian Arena, Exalted Angel is nuts .etc.

[SuckerPunch]

I should be open about my motive. I have a soft spot for green, and especially mono green.

It's the first color that all the newer players are drawn to. It's the beatdown color that you play because it's fun even when people laugh at just how weak monogreen really is. It's the budget color where you can use Llanowar Elves for your mana accleration needs rather than the Mox that all the other colors use and can use that mana to play juicy fatties. It's the color with freaking Rancor!

In legacy, monogreen was the one last thread of hope for budget players, the one last deck that you don't need $70 Piledrivers, $80 Sinkholes, $90 Sea Drakes, or $100 Dual Lands to build.

Before a few years ago, setting aside Vintage, most of the staples in the game (StP, Duress, Bolt etc) were cards that were printed as commons, and reprinted again and again so that every one could play with them. That was a good thing for magic.

It's a very good thing that players just starting out can readily find and get some of the most powerful and useful cards in the game.

You said it yourself. 90% of the decks in this format need dual lands. Goyf is the equivalent of duallands for that last 10% of decks that previously didn't need any uberexpensive rares.

Why do you think 9 Land Stompy was still so popular. It's certainly not because the deck is ubercompetitive I'll tell you that much. Now, with goyf, the deck finally has potential atleast. I run the deck, and I assure you that it suddenly got a hell of a lot better thanks to Goyf. But precisely the one deck that Goyf could help the most is the one that draws in the players that can't afford the card.

In someways, Goyf was a big screw you to all the people that bagged on green for so long. Goyf really is to Green what StP is to White. It almost by itself makes the color worth playing, or splashing.

So yeah, I would have preferred Goyf as a GG. But even as is, I like the card and definately think that mono green players, newer players, all the johnnys out there on a tight budget, deserve to play with the card. Not just the spikes that spent the past decade laughing at monogreen decks.

More importantly, just how many more outraogously overpriced staples that every serious player absolutely needs to get 4 copies of in every single format to be competitive do we need.

This isn't for personal reasons either. I preordered two playsets of Tarmogoyf within two weeks of when the card was leaked. I could easily have sold them off for 15x their original price if I wanted to. But I'm going to keep them as I absolutly love playing with them in both thresh and 9 land stompy. And I stand to lose as much as most if Goyf gets reprinted so that it's price goes down a little bit. I couldn't care less about that.

Tarmogoyf finally gave green it's staple card. White has StP, Black has Duress, Red has Lightning Bolt, and Blue has Brainstorm and so many other staples, from Daze to Mana Leak to Stifle to Counterspell to Misdiretion to FoW that Blue's doesn't fit this mold.

The problem with Goyf is that its price is way higher than a staple card that defines an entire color should be. Goyf should be played in just about every single deck with green just as StP should be played in just about every single deck with white, Duress in just about every deck that's black etc.

It's good that green has a staple. What's bad is that while all of the other color's staple cards are commons that were printed in atleast four different sets, Goyf is a chase rare that was only printed in one set. Staple cards that define an entire color shouldn't be chase rares and thats why I think we shouldn't be clamoring for Goyf to be banned. We should be clamoring to have it reprinted so that it's more readily available.

Tarmogoyf doesn't break any format. It's vulnerable to the removal that every deck should be playing already anyways. It's vulnerable to StP, Smother, Pyrokinesis, a Tarmogoyf on the Other side of the board, Spell Snare/Countermagic, Control Magic, and Veldalken Shackles.

The answers to it are all cards that are so versatile and strong that you lose nothing by playing them.

But I see no reason to think his price will do anything but go up unless Wizards wises up to the fact that Goyf is now green's staple card in every single format and reprints him in atleast one more set like they did with Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares, Duress, and Brainstorm. They have the perfect justification to do it too. Tarmogoyf is future shifted after all. I just hope they get rid of the cards idiotic reminder text.

Just wait until Planeswalkers see print. I'm certain that they will be good enough that they too will see play in all the formats. So Goyf is just going to cost that much more.

In many ways, Tarmogoyf now defines greens role in the format. Thresh creatures were always limited because you need a heavy cantrip engine to use them. With goyf, you don't really need to alter most decklists that splash him much at all. And in most cases, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by splashing him into any deck that can support him.

Staple cards like Tarmogoyf that are staples in every magic format need to made available in sufficient quantities that all the serious players are able to get a playset. Otherwise, Wizards will only be detering the players that can't get that staple card from playing the game.

Maybe we should write to MaRo (using the feedback button at the end of his articles) with our thoughts about the card perhaps being reprinted.

[Black Rain]

"I honestly cant think of a Monocolored deck that is viable in 1.5 right now outside of Sui Black."

I thought goblins was mono-colored and was something like one of the best deck s in legacy:rolleyes: maybe. you think

[SuckerPunch]

Who were you quoting exactly? I couldn't find the post you were referring to.

If that was a response to my post. Goblins isn't exactly budget. Wastelands, Piledrivers etc, the deck will run you a couple of hundred easy.

Sui Black isn't very good with 4 Wasteland, 4 Sinkhole, 4 Negator and 4 Shade either, so it too costs a pretty penny. And even that deck gets better with a light green splash for Goyf, Rancor, and maybe Berserk.

[FoolofaTook]

If Tarmogoyf stays in the meta and is not reprinted it will be just as expensive as Sea Drakes and Force of Will and all the other cards that are Legacy staples and not in print.

[FoolofaTook]

You obviously dont play magic anymore.

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=631

Five out of eight decks are running goyf in the 78 person tourny. The other three decks are Belcher, Solidarity, and some white blue deck that should be splashing for him.

Also check out the results from Gencon. I believe half the decks ran a slate of him.

There was a goblin deck that ran 4 Tarmogoyf in the sideboard. That was an interesting choice, given the other things goblins likes to do with the sideboards to counter some matchups.

[Hummingbird TG]

If Tarmogoyf stays in the meta and is not reprinted it will be just as expensive as Sea Drakes and Force of Will and all the other cards that are Legacy staples and not in print.

Doubt so., At least, not for a long while. Force of Will is a Vintage Staple, and Sea Drake is from freaking Portal... While Future Sight is quite a recent set with some good cards.

[from Cairo]

If Tarmogoyf stays in the meta and is not reprinted it will be just as expensive as Sea Drakes and Force of Will and all the other cards that are Legacy staples and not in print.

Yea this comparison isn't really fair.

Both of those cards have been oop for nearly 10 years. Force of Will to begin with isn't going for a whole lot more than Tarmogoyf, its like ~$20 vs ~$15, but still its a staple thats been in T1-1.5 for a long while and is respected as being the most one of the strongest cards in the format.

Tarmogoyf while great, is a brand new card, and readily available, its in demand for all formats - block, T2, Extended, Legacy, etc, of coarse its going to be expensive now, all T2 chase rares are expensive when people are trying to grab play sets of them. But once it roles out of print there will tons more of them out compared to a card that was last printed in 95 or 98, and there will be a bunch of T2 players looking to move them.

Sea Drake is just completely incomparable because it comes from a set that wasn't part of the tournament spectrum for 10 years of the game. People for the most part ignored Portal cards except for reprints of Wrath of God, Armageddon, a couple others, the set couldn't have sold near as well as other sets were at the time, and probably the vast majority of Portal cards aren't in circulation, due to the fact they weren't playable and retired players who are ebaying old collections know that Moxes, Force of Wills, Mana Drains, and Duals and stuff are money cards, unless they have been following the Legacy metagame probably they wouldn't think that a Portal: Second Age, uncommon, Sea Drake is fetching w/e like $40.

Thus there is a moderate supply of cards like Force of Will and players getting out of the game know they can unload the card for money, there is a moderate demand for the card as its only playable in two formats that aren't very much of the games player base, which keeps the card's price in check. Being a brand new card there is a high supply and currently a very high demand for Tarmogoyf, resulting in a large price tag, when it rotates there will still be a ton of them floating around for a while and alot less people needing them, his price will drop, no doubt 10 years down the line it will be a harder card to find, but alot of other cards like Force will be oop for 20yrs so who knows what prices will be like. And for Sea Drake, there is probably next to no supply and some demand which is likely why it's so expensive, only vintage players at all care about this card, and likely they are the only ones who know its worth anything, for a card that probably didn't have that many in circulation, to not be well known as valuable means the ones that people are going to be selling they know they can get alot for. At the same time if you stumbled into some random card shop that happened to have a Portal: Second Age binder or box of commons and uncommons and you got lucky finding some in there you could probably score them for really cheap for the same reason. Like when the change was made and random online suppliers had them for $0.50 or something, they either sold out of them crazy fast or noticed people buying them and looked into the situation, and inflated the price tags.

Either way I don't think the sky is falling if a T2 legal card is "expensive". It may end up getting reprinted, but even if it doesn't I don't think Tarmogoyf's price tag will remain as high as it is nor does it's current price tag even seem that inhibitive (its no more expensive then Pithing Needle, Chrome Mox, Meddling Mage, Rishadan Port, etc were when they were/are T2 legal).

[SuckerPunch]

You have to balance that out with the fact that both FoW and Sea Drake were uncommons, and both are cards that are only legal in Vintage and Legacy, the two least played formats in the game. And you have to also consider that Sea Drake only function is one and only one very rogue deck, Fairie Stompy. Any deck that can support its rather significant drawback well has to have a very specific manabase.

I assure you that Tarmogoyf will stay the single most prevalent card in the competitive decks of every single format that it is legal in and in multiplayer as well. Just give it time. And it will be even more prevalent if Planeswalkers are playable which is what Wizards is aiming for.

More importantly, do you guys realize how important multiplayer is to the long term health of the game. 3/4s of the players I know got into magic by first joining casual multiplayer games with a deck someone lent them. They only started playing duels much later. But if you make the most common, most powerful, most likable, most splashable multiplayer staple one that's so impossible to get, they will make multiplayer less appealing to the bazillion people that simply can't get a hold of Tarmogoyf and to newer players alike.

People will be looking back at this time in magic and talking about how wizards dealt with Goyf. If they opt to never reprint it because it's a powerful card, rather than going the smart route by simply printing some of the better removal spells (Smother etc.) alongside it in standard, they will be making a mistake. All they will have done is made Green's staple card one that's near impossible to get. In time, it will be everybit as impossible to find as Sea Drake, probably more so, because it goes into so many different decks in so many different formats where as Sea Drake, an uncommon, still only works well in one rogue deck in the least played format in magic due to it's drawback

But a decision to not reprint Tarmogoyf will have long term effects on the game even more significant than the fact that Mana Drain and Force of Will were only printed in one set, albeit as an uncommon. I argue that these two cards are a major reason why people with smaller collections are driven away from playing blue. By making greens staple one that is so rare that only the pros can get it, you will be driving newer and casual players away from their favorite color, green. Even newer players won't want to play green if they can't get the very best and coolest creature in green. That will be a very bad thing for the game. People want to atleast think that their deck plays the best cards that it should. But its obvious to even the newest players that their green deck isn't the first time a pro beats them down with Goyf.

[from Cairo]

I assure you that Tarmogoyf will stay the single most prevalent card in the competitive decks of every single format that it is legal in and in multiplayer as well. Just give it time. And it will be even more prevalent if Planeswalkers are playable which is what Wizards is aiming for.

More importantly, do you guys realize how important multiplayer is to the long term health of the game. 3/4s of the players I know got into magic by first joining casual multiplayer games with a deck someone lent them. They only started playing duels much later. But if you make the most common, most powerful, most likable, most splashable multiplayer staple one that's so impossible to get, they will make multiplayer less appealing to the bazillion people that simply can't get a hold of Tarmogoyf and to newer players alike.


I think the key to this is that rares used in competitive decks are expensive, anyone who commits to playing competitively in this game, regardless of the format does so knowing that to play a competitive deck you have to shell out cash for the rare staples. Yea, you can pick up 4 Brainstorms for less then $1, you could probably pick up 4 Rancors for that too, they are commons.

New players can get interested in a game without having the absolute best cards, it seems foolish to bother collecting if you can walk into the game and have the most powerful cards be reprinted to the point that they hold no value. The game is a collectible card game, the idea being that you collect the cards, building up to having better ones, with some sense of progression from being the a new player and using mostly commons and junk, to getting to a competitive level and having a competitive tournament level deck.

By this arguement should Black Lotus, Moxes, and Ancestral Recall be reprinted into oblivion, since they are among the "most powerful, most likable, most splashable" cards in their format?

[SuckerPunch]

By this arguement should Black Lotus, Moxes, and Ancestral Recall be reprinted into oblivion, since they are among the "most powerful, most likable, most splashable" cards in their format?

The exorbitant prices of those cards were the reason that Vintage was created in the first place. It was the reason that legacy was split away from vintage.

Do you honestly think that the banning of cards like Illusionary Mask in legacy had anything at all to do with the card's actual power level. Do you really think that if Illusionary Mask was made in legacy, that it would even cause a shift in the format. No, the card was banned almost entirely for monetary reasons as were several other cards, including I would argue Mana Drain.

Honestly the moxen aren't even that powerful. Being able to play 4 Chrome Mox, 4 Lotus Petal and 4 Mox Diamond is a lot more acceleration than the 5 Moxen provided in Vintage. So I would argue that even the Moxen as 1 ofs weren't banned from legacy for power reasons as much as they were for monetary reasons.

If the Moxen were reprinted in several base sets rather than being stopped at Unlimited, I don't think the cards would be banned today. I think every deck would be using them in a manner similar to how some decks use 4 copies of Chrome Mox today.

Many people are saying Tarmogoyf should be banned not because it's that hard to deal with but because for a staple, it's so expensive to get a hold of.

So I really don't see how my argument about just how prevalent a card being closely tied to how badly people want the card banned doesn't hold water, especially considering the fate of Illusionary Mask in legacy.

[from Cairo]

Right, but Tarmogoyf is like a $15 rare, its not on the price level like Illusionary Mask, or Mana Drain, or Workshop. Those cards were printed in smaller numbers, and likely a great deal of them have been taken out of circulation by players quitting, and the fact that 10+ years have gone past since their last printings.

Sea Drake or Berserk or something would make a lot stronger argument for cards that would be in danger of getting banned based on price/availability. Both of these cases are fairly unique to the format though. They were cards that weren't available to be used in Legacy/1.5 for a long time and weren't as widely available to begin with compared to a current set's rare, and they were both recently 9+ years after their last printings welcomed into the format as x4 ofs. It's a huge spike in demand compared to the supply that was available.

A card like Tarmogoyf will likely hold some value for a long time, but I don't see a reason to think its going to spike like either of the above mentioned cards.

Anyway this is pretty off topic at this point, the conversation could probably continue in the other thread, since its more related to that one.

[SuckerPunch]

I will close my posts here about this subtopic related to Tarmogoyf with this.

I agree with much of your arguement.

But I guess the main point I am making, and one that you haven't really addressed is that I think it would be a good thing for the game if Wizards does reprint Tarmagoyf along with good removal cards like Smother in standard.

My argument isn't that Wizards is required to reprint the card.

My arguement is that it is a very good thing for both Legacy and Magic in general that Swords to Plowshares, Duress, Brainstorm, and Lightning Bolt are not expensive chase rares but rather easy to get commons.

And my arguement is that Goyf has a lot more in common with these cards than it does with many of the chase rares out there. Goyf almost universally belongs in virtually every single green deck just as the above cards belong in virtually every single deck of their respective color. It doesn't matter whether the deck is monocolored green or threshold, extended or standard, a duel or a multiplayer game. The same can't be said of chase rares like Meddling Mage and Sea Drake which are very deck and format specific.

That's why I think it would be a good thing, for Tarmagoyf atleast to be reprinted. It really isn't hard to keep the card in check in standard. Reprinting Goyf doesn't break Standard either. There are already plenty of answers to the card including Temporal Isolation. This is why some of the best decks in standard include that monoblue lockdown deck, the dredge deck and that mono black control deck, all of which can deal with Goyf effictively. Standard is perfectly healthy with the card.

So Wizard should be focusing on the long term a bit more. They should take a second to think about how different the game might be, how many fewer players may have gotten into competitive magic in the first place, if Swords to Plowshares, Brainstorm, Duress, and Lightning Bolt were all impossible to find chase rares.

[FoolofaTook]

I think Tarmogoyf is going to be in almost every aggro control deck if it stays legal in Legacy. It's just too good not to be there. And it allows those decks to use Krosan Grip also, which is an excellent secondary control card as a two of in green. Berserk might even see a comback as a one or two of given it's synergy with Tarmogoyf and the fact that it can really piss off your opponent when they lose their Meddling Mage or Dark Confidant trying to beat you for a few early on.

[from Cairo]

Yea Wizard's can take two paths with Goyf pretty clearly. He can become a reprint staple, much like maybe Birds of Paradise or Wrath of God. Admittedly Goyf seems a bit more auto include then either of those, but they are powerful rares that are color staples that see play in several formats.

Or he can be a one shot deal. Not see reprinting.

This will probably come down to how Wizards chooses to direct the future of Standard. Goyf at the moment is a pretty defining card, which clearly means he's great, but also limits choices in forcing people to deal with him.

Reprinting him, means the quantity of the card will increase, he will be more available to the masses, along with this his stay in Standard and Extended will also be longer. This is a double edged sword, giving Green a reprinted staple is nice for new players, but as agreed he is a power house and format defining meaning a longer duration of Standard will be defined by Goyf / anti-Goyf.

By not reprinting him, it means a card to add to the list of rare expensive-ish Legacy staples. It also means that more room will be given to Wizard's pet format Type 2, and they will have a new open format, where new cards will dominate and be defining. I think as far as money Legacy staples go there are several others that the "shit will hit the fan" on before the issue of Goyf's monetary cost being too much for the format to sustain comes up. Dual Lands, Force of Will, Sac Lands, etc. so far all have not seen reprinting- these are all atleast of equal importance to the format as Goyf, and are further out of print then he will be.

Since a larger portion of the player base is involved in Type 2 I think it's probably safe to assume that whatever choice they make on reprinting him it will largely be influenced by what sort of impact he would have on that format. I think the risk of his value banning him from Legacy is minimal atleast for a long time to come.

[MattH]

Why do you guys assume Goyf will be $20 forever? It will probably drop to $12ish when it leaves Standard and drop to $10 when it leaves Extended in 3-4 years.

There is no way goyf is going to become a staple card on par with BOP or Wrath. It is way too complicated for that. You're looking at it with incredibly thick Legacy-blinders on.

[from Cairo]

Why do you guys assume Goyf will be $20 forever? It will probably drop to $12ish when it leaves Standard and drop to $10 when it leaves Extended in 3-4 years.

I don't know who this was directed to but assuming myself and Suckerpunch since we were the two who were mostly discussing it, but I agreed with you that it will drop in value: "A card like Tarmogoyf will likely hold some value for a long time", "Being a brand new card there is a high supply and currently a very high demand for Tarmogoyf, resulting in a large price tag, when it rotates there will still be a ton of them floating around for a while and alot less people needing them, his price will drop", etc.


There is no way goyf is going to become a staple card on par with BOP or Wrath. It is way too complicated for that.

I was implying they may see fit to print it in a core set. In which case it would likely fall into the price range like BoP and Wrath, powerful cards that are staples to the color, but don't have high price tags as they are generally in-print with them being reprinted in core sets. I don't follow what is way to complicated for what.


You're looking at it with incredibly thick Legacy-blinders on.

My whole last post was saying that whether the card would be reprinted was far more dependent on the state of Standard and that Eternal wouldn't play much part in whether WoC would reprint the creature.

[SuckerPunch]

There is no way goyf is going to become a staple card on par with BOP or Wrath. It is way too complicated for that.

Actually, it already is more of a staple than either card.

I'm not looking at this with legacy blinders on. Just look at the recent top 8s not just of legacy, but of extended, standard, and block. Goyf was a huge force all three formats. So many peopemain le copies of goyf see play in tourney winning decks than do BOP and Wrath.

Goyf is a lot more of a staple than BOP certainly, and Wrath very likely as wll.

Where it differs is, both BOP and Wrath were printed in a whole bunch of editions, and yet remain very expensive. Thats why I dont see it as a stretch to say Goyf will always be crazy expensive if it's not reprinted.

Both BoP and Wrath are pricy despite the huge number of times they were reprinted and the limited number of decks that use them. When was the last time you saw BoP in legacy or vintage. Few extended decks run it either.

Goyf is a rare just like those cards, but it was only printed in one set and something like half the decks in every single format in magic play 4 copies of him.

[troopatroop]

I say they reprint him uncommon.

[DragoFireheart]

I say they reprint him uncommon.


Card rarity never goes down, only up. Like Lodoxan Warhammer. [spelling?]

[Bryant Cook]

Not true. Rule of Law. GG Holmes.

[Bovinious]

Counterspell also went from uncommon to common, usually rarity does go up though, but sometimes it goes down.

[DragoFireheart]

Good god the Goyf just went up to 25$ on Starcitygames!?

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=45460

[FoolofaTook]

Good god the Goyf just went up to 25$ on Starcitygames!?

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=45460

Goyf's selling out all over the place. He'll be a $50 card at some point during this cycle cuz he's that much better than any other standard legal critter.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

He's a four of in... almost everything in every format. Yeah, he'll get there until he gets banned.

I told people to buy 'em when they were 3$ each just after Future Sight came out. No one ever listens to Jack.

[KillemallCFH]

I pre-ordered a playset for $5. Best investment I ever made.

[DragoFireheart]

He's a four of in... almost everything in every format. Yeah, he'll get there until he gets banned.

I told people to buy 'em when they were 3$ each just after Future Sight came out. No one ever listens to Jack.

Do you really think they will ban him in one of the formats?

My guess is Standard most likely, maybe extended. Not the Eternal Formats though.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Actually, I think he's far more bannable in Legacy, where literally everyone can run him, than in Type 2, especially once they lose the shocklands.

[Peter_Rotten]

Do you really think they will ban him in one of the formats?

My guess is Standard most likely, maybe extended. Not the Eternal Formats though.

God, I hope they ban him in Standard and Extended so he becomes more reasonably priced for Legacy. The only critter that should cost more than a dual land should have a name that starts with "Juzam" and ends with... umm... damn, how do you spell "Djinn?"

[The Rack]

I don't think they will ban him. Reason being he's pretty powerful but with all the testing that Wizards do before making sets they must have something up their sleeves. They can still mass produce goyfs till their prices regulate down to 10$ a piece. That's absolutely ridiculous for a brand new card to be 20$ a piece. If they were going to ban him, they wouldn;t have made him... He's strong for sure and Legacy should be called Goyf Splooge.format but it won't get banned. If he trampled then it would be a different story. I just have a feeling they'll print a monstrous anti-goyf creature or something like that. Pro Green is more tech than ever now, Spectral Lynx ftw.

[DragoFireheart]

Funny how they printed a card thats... .50 cents... and is damn near the same thing as Juzam.

Juzam has the hawt artwork though.

Regardless... poor Goyf is getting too much spotlight. :frown:

[FoolofaTook]

Actually, I think he's far more bannable in Legacy, where literally everyone can run him, than in Type 2, especially once they lose the shocklands.

I'm rethinking my position on him in Legacy. He's better than every other critter but he's green and I don't know that I mind that so much, especially given that critters are going to become endangered as win conditions except in combo.

There are some Legacy decks that try to win with critters that won't use him so maybe he's just a new definition of bad-ass beatdown.

Edit: and of course Jotun Grunt and Tombstalker, two other critters that will see a lot of play tend to negate Goyf to a certain extent.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't think they will ban him. Reason being he's pretty powerful but with all the testing that Wizards do before making sets they must have something up their sleeves. They can still mass produce goyfs till their prices regulate down to 10$ a piece. That's absolutely ridiculous for a brand new card to be 20$ a piece. If they were going to ban him, they wouldn;t have made him... He's strong for sure and Legacy should be called Goyf Splooge.format but it won't get banned. If he trampled then it would be a different story. I just have a feeling they'll print a monstrous anti-goyf creature or something like that. Pro Green is more tech than ever now, Spectral Lynx ftw.

I also agree. If he hard trample or some other evasion/piercing ability then he would have been banned without a doubt.

[Happy Gilmore]

I'm kind of glad I got my foil set for $3 a piece on ebay. What are they now foil, like 50?

[Bovinious]

Arguing that just because 'Goyf made it to print he wont get banned isnt really valid, Mind's Desire got restricted in Type 1 and banned in Type 1.5 before it was even tournament legal, and Memory Jar got emergency banned once Urza's Legacy was released. Sometimes WOTC makes a mistake and prints a card that is way to powerful for its time, I can almost gaurantee WOTC didnt test the card (specifically in Legacy) extensively enough to know that it often is 1G for a 4/5 or 5/6, with little to no drawback.

That being said, I dont think it will get banned, although I'd be happy if they did ban it. It just obsoletes pretty much any other beatstick in the game, and break the established ratio of P/T to mana cost by so much, and also is a pain in the ass to get a hold of on account of hes needed for so many decks. However he is still just a vanilla dork that can be chumped to high Hell, my solution is just to play combo and ignore the damn thing.

[FoolofaTook]

However he is still just a vanilla dork that can be chumped to high Hell, my solution is just to play combo and ignore the damn thing.

Goyf is going to make O-Naginata a frequently played card in Legacy.

[Bovinious]

Heres a rule I live by, if I have to look a card up, its not good. So I'm gunna go ahead and doubt you on that one, no offense.

[FoolofaTook]

Heres a rule I live by, if I have to look a card up, its not good. So I'm gunna go ahead and doubt you on that one, no offense.

Artifact-Equipment

1CC

O-Naginata may only be attached to a creature with 3 or more power.

Equipped Creature gets +3/+0 and Trample.

Equip 2.

It makes Goyf into a 3 turn kill and sticks around when he gets plowed if that happens. And there's no chump blocking him.

[Bovinious]

I looked it up after I posted that to make sure I wasnt just being a jerk (and also for shits and grins), then I also saw it was in Saviors (LOL). Honestly that card doesnt look too bad in a vacuum but I cant think of a good deck that plays Tarmogofy that would also want that. First off, the card cant be dead when you dont have Goyf, so there would need to be other 3+ power mans in your deck, and plently of them. Also factor in that if you have Goyf your probably winning anyways, so in a way it is win more. I dont see it being good in Breakfast or Thresh, the 2 best decks in the format and where Goyf truly shines the brightest.

[The Rack]

Artifact-Equipment

1CC

O-Naginata may only be attached to a creature with 3 or more power.

Equipped Creature gets +3/+0 and Trample.

Equip 2.

It makes Goyf into a 3 turn kill and sticks around when he gets plowed if that happens. And there's no chump blocking him.

HURRY EVERYONE!!

I'm stockpiling 1000s of those because I actually saw that Goyf was gonna go up in price and knew the immediate effects 0 Naginata would have on it. I'm currently playing 24 O Naginata in all of my competitive decks put together, it is that damn good.

[DragoFireheart]

Artifact-Equipment

1CC

O-Naginata may only be attached to a creature with 3 or more power.

Equipped Creature gets +3/+0 and Trample.

Equip 2.

It makes Goyf into a 3 turn kill and sticks around when he gets plowed if that happens. And there's no chump blocking him.

Or you just use Rancor...

[FoolofaTook]

Or you just use Rancor...

Rancor would work. I have this feeling that Trinket Mage is going to find it's way into the U/G Goyf decks, mainly because it pitches to FoW and also pulls up Pithing Needle, Engineered Explosives and Tormod's Crypt. That makes O-Naginata as a 1 of a real possibility.

[DragoFireheart]

Rancor would work. I have this feeling that Trinket Mage is going to find it's way into the U/G Goyf decks, mainly because it pitches to FoW and also pulls up Pithing Needle, Engineered Explosives and Tormod's Crypt. That makes O-Naginata as a 1 of a real possibility.

Artifact-Equipment

1CC

O-Naginata may only be attached to a creature with 3 or more power.

Equipped Creature gets +3/+0 and Trample.

Equip 2.

Those hate cards would hurt Goyf power, reducing the chance that you could equip him.

Just stick to rancors.

[FoolofaTook]

I looked it up after I posted that to make sure I wasnt just being a jerk (and also for shits and grins), then I also saw it was in Saviors (LOL). Honestly that card doesnt look too bad in a vacuum but I cant think of a good deck that plays Tarmogofy that would also want that. First off, the card cant be dead when you dont have Goyf, so there would need to be other 3+ power mans in your deck, and plently of them. Also factor in that if you have Goyf your probably winning anyways, so in a way it is win more. I dont see it being good in Breakfast or Thresh, the 2 best decks in the format and where Goyf truly shines the brightest.

The other critters it lands on are Nimble Mongoose and Werebear, after threshold is reached, along with Serendib Efreet. I just have this feeling it's going to wind up as an option.

[DragoFireheart]

The other critters it lands on are Nimble Mongoose and Werebear, after threshold is reached, along with Serendib Efreet. I just have this feeling it's going to wind up as an option.

You can't equip the Mongoose, the Werebear isn't very popular with Goyf around, and SoFI is better for the Serendib.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I like O-Naginata. It could see play in a B/G deck with Rotting Giant, Negators, etc...

Rancor opens you up to two-for-ones and provides less power, although it's true that it also costs less and has better synergy with Negator. Still. I can see O-Naginata making an impact in Extended, at least.

[AngryTroll]

Briar Shield G
Enchant Creature
Enchanted Tarmogoyf gets +1/+1, and beats other Tarmogoyfs in combat.
Sacrifice Briar Shield:
Put a +1/+1 counter on all Tarmogoyfs in play.
Enchanted Tarmogoyf gets an additional +3/+3 until end of turn.

[APriestOfGix]

Has a creature that does nothing but turn sideways to deal damage ever been banned in the history of the DCI? This isn't a loaded question, I'm legitimately curious. I don't keep up with block/standard/extended bans.

Arcbound Ravager

[Meekrab]

Arcbound Ravager
Has abilities other than "T:swing in lulz." Close, but no prize for you.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Juggernaut, Kird Ape, and Serendib Efreet.

Ravager and Tarmogoyf both have abilities that give them modular (undercosted) power/toughness. I think the analogy holds anyway.

[kicks_422]

I heard they were finally going to trade Kobe Bryant - for 4 Tarmogoyfs. Could you imagine a full set of Tarmogoys in Lakers uniforms? That would be insane.

[Citrus-God]

I heard they were finally going to trade Kobe Bryant - for 4 Tarmogoyfs. Could you imagine a full set of Tarmogoys in Lakers uniforms? That would be insane.

This just in, Shaq turned into a Werebear. This is pretty awesome, 4 Goyfs and a Bear for the Lakers.

[Versus]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v241/KSC2-303/lakergoyf.jpg

eh, I'm bored this morning.

[Meekrab]

A foil Japanese Tarmogoyf sold for $147.50 plus shipping on ebay last week. Wow.

[DragoFireheart]

A foil Japanese Tarmogoyf sold for $147.50 plus shipping on ebay last week. Wow.

Can we expect Goyf to get cheaper?

[Happy Gilmore]

A foil Japanese Tarmogoyf sold for $147.50 plus shipping on ebay last week. Wow.

wow....now I'm sorry I didn't pick up the japanese foil set instead of the regular foils. And the answer is no, they will never go down in price.

[Jaynel]

I'm sure after they rotate out of Standard they'll drop - maybe down to $20.

[Versus]

At the pre-release last weekend the dealer there who's prices were pretty fair actually was selling Goyf for $32! There's no doubt the demand is still there.

What gets me is he's from a 180 card set. At this point you're better off getting a box of FS for $79 and most likely to pull 2 anyway. Then sell the rest. I think it's come to that point.

On a side note, I love some of the folks over at WoTC boards that continuously balk at Goyf; "He's just a vanilla creature!", "I'll chump block him all day.", "I hope I play against a deck running Goyfs, I'll just Terror and him and say next."

Riiiight...

[(nameless one)]

I would give away my Christmas weekend holiday for $20 Tarmogoyfs.

[lordofthepit]

http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID21272/images/Necropotence_art.jpg

[Arsenal]

I'm sure after they rotate out of Standard they'll drop - maybe down to $20.

I bought mine for $25 a piece in January 2009, so this guy wasn't too far off.

[TsumiBand]

Ugh, nice necro.

This thread makes my teeth hurt and my penis soft.

Playsets for 5 bucks? The fuck was my head at in 2007.

Anyway, I'm sure the real problem card is Brainstorm, but that's a totally different ball of wax.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Quick, let's mention Tarmogoyf so people can mention how cheaply they got theirs. :wink:

I got mine for the life of a tree while it was sleeping in the forest. In all fairness, its not like anyone heard it scream.

[Esper3k]

My first playset was one busted from a pack and then 3 for $0.75 (for the lot, not apiece!).

This was back when it first came out and people were still debating it vs Werebear in the UGW Thresh decks.

Anyone remember "Werebear taps for G after you Armageddon!"

I ended up selling the Goyfs at $80 when Modern was first announced and they spiked. Never thought they'd reach the heights they are at today...

[TsumiBand]

My first playset was one busted from a pack and then 3 for $0.75 (for the lot, not apiece!).

This was back when it first came out and people were still debating it vs Werebear in the UGW Thresh decks.

Anyone remember "Werebear taps for G after you Armageddon!"

I ended up selling the Goyfs at $80 when Modern was first announced and they spiked. Never thought they'd reach the heights they are at today...

Precisely this haha. People were throwing stuff like Predict in their decks instead of just playing spells to feed El Goyf. Predict + Tarmogoyf = BLUE GIANT GROWTH. GOD FUCK BLUE DOES EVERYTHING

And yet I still hear Werebear's song on the wind. Sad that a creature which by rights is still kind of undercosted once you 'get there' with Threshold but taps for G regardless, is still considered worse than the old 'aw shucks, it's just a beater you guys' Marmogoyf.

Marmogoyf: correctly pronounced with the same emphasis as Wobbuffet pronounces its own name, from the mind-numbing Pokemon cartoon.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl7117wGQLY

Maaaaaaarmagoyf.

[MGB]

Why do you guys assume Goyf will be $20 forever? It will probably drop to $12ish when it leaves Standard and drop to $10 when it leaves Extended in 3-4 years.

There is no way goyf is going to become a staple card on par with BOP or Wrath. It is way too complicated for that. You're looking at it with incredibly thick Legacy-blinders on.

This comment is particularly amusing.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Man this tarmogoyf card looks playable, how much is it?

[Grand Superior]

Ugh, Tarmogoyf will always hold a strange place in my Legacy-playing heart. My first playset came from opening two of them from booster packs during my "tarmogoyf-hunt" booster pack buying spree back in 2007 (probably bought at least 40 packs. stupid younger me), buying one outright from a store for $40, and then eventually buying the fourth copy in 2011 for $80. I then traded that playset of Tarmogoyfs for a playset of Jace, the Mind Sculptor two weeks before Jace was banned in Standard (yep, just my luck).

I eventually traded a bajillion cards in 2013 for a playset of Tarmogoyf and I'm never letting this one go ever.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Ugh, Tarmogoyf will always hold a strange place in my Legacy-playing heart. My first playset came from opening two of them from booster packs during my "tarmogoyf-hunt" booster pack buying spree back in 2007 (probably bought at least 40 packs. stupid younger me), buying one outright from a store for $40, and then eventually buying the fourth copy in 2011 for $80. I then traded that playset of Tarmogoyfs for a playset of Jace, the Mind Sculptor two weeks before Jace was banned in Standard (yep, just my luck).

I eventually traded a bajillion cards in 2013 for a playset of Tarmogoyf and I'm never letting this one go ever.

I traded for Goyfs around summer 2010 as I had taken a break from MTG for a while and hadn't needed them. I traded a booster box of M10, altered playset of Dark Rits I painted, Exploration, Foil Brainstorm, Mox Diamond, and Japanese Sphere of Resistance for a playset.

[HammafistRoob]

Anyone remember "Werebear taps for G after you Armageddon!".

I definitely remember that one. I miss Werebear :(, they should give him a reprint so he can get some well deserved love.

Does this thread kinda remind you guys of the TNN thread?

[TsumiBand]

I definitely remember that one. I miss Werebear :(, they should give him a reprint so he can get some well deserved love.

Does this thread kinda remind you guys of the TNN thread?

Except for that whole "started life as dollar-bin ass wipe" thing

[miguelmatix]

Hello mtg fans. =)
Tarmogoyf is such a cool card. Sure is a very strong creature and it invalidates LOTS of other cards. But this IS Legacy.
I remember the first time i looked at it and did not saw it's power (and i think no one did).
Several month's later i bought several foil copies 30 - 40$ a piece (and thought it was bloody expensive). I now own 10 foil gem copies and 4 regular gem ones for playing. :cool:
I just hope they print something equal (in power and playability for Red).
Cheers!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I just hope they print something equal (in power and playability for Red).
Cheers!

If only the tokens had haste, Young Pyro would be pretty close to it, and then all the colors would have their powerful two-drop. Sadly...

I thought about the Goyf a bit and came to some conclussions that I wish to share.
First of all: I own a set of Goyfs and there's a funny story not worthy sharing behind them, so I'll keep them though I'd rather have Chinese ones, but w/e.
My main concern with the card is that it started the wave of big power creep in creature dpt., that ultimately led us to cards like one-mana 3/2 flying Nacatls or indestructible 15/15 omnomnom6 or 7/7 Yawgmoth's Lifelink Bargain and all the stuff. Not that it's bad per se, as creatures needed improvement: as long as six mana sorcery wins the game, there's no reason for 8 mana creature to not do the same; S&T notwithstanding.
Goyf, although an evolutionary "dead end" is in fact really pretty card, I like it's elegant design, I like that it's :1::g: drop, and I would love Legacy much less if Goyf would be out of it for any reason. The omnipressence of this card is one thing, but well, we're playing eternal format, so it's no surprise that we play with best cards available; one of them is Goyf.

WotC clearly didn't test the card enough and although it's not that powerful today - now when there are number of cards that punish it had (be it Relic, RiP, Decay, DritDritDritAdN) -, it is still a valuable player and every aggro deck needs to have a very strong reason to not include it. I really love the most recent iterations of Thresh that play the most undercosted and the most aggressive creatures of MtGs history, and I really like how Goyf is just a big bad vanilla, but there' one major trouble with the whole concept of this card. The one starting toughness.
Goyf promotes Goyf-stalls and this is what is the worst aspect of the whole card. Not the fast damage output (btw, there are similarly fast creatures, yet no one cries about them so much, except maybe for Delver, which is a clear design mistake, imho), but the fact that it's the ultimate wall against itself, is what makes (at least mine) play experience so strange, so bizarre. Making it's p/t dependant on grave in a completely non-lhurgoy way, all the while it is graveyard where the cards end in this game of Magical Collectibles... wasn't it a significant brainfart? It shouldn't be that hard to unravel that there's something inherently broken about turn-2 threshed Werebear. Adding insult to the injury was the 1 starting toughness, that makes it very difficult to get rid of the creature and that makes it quite impossible to break the Goyf-on-Goyf stalls, especially when speaking about post-combat direct dmg - I look into you, Threshold mirrors - when no player is willing to rush his own Goyfs into the danger of an opposing Bolts.

One may just dream how the format (and the whole game for that matter) would be different if Goyf would have ben printed with an initial p/t of 0/0, thus removing both the "Wall of Goyfs" aspect and the bit-of-an-indestructibility that Goyf sports (esp. when we're considering direct damage spells). I guess that this game would be far more healthy with a common :1::g: Weregoyf that needs some time to grow while tapping for green (pretend that it matters), and a similar yet different rare :1::g: Tarmobear that "reaches thresh" as far as turn2, but on the other hand has no abilities and dies to RiP, Relic, Morningtide or whatever.
Alas, there's no point in dreaming, esp. when the results of this "what if 0/0" scenario can't be told.

Would we make fun of flamingly gay people if they didn't lisp? It's pointlethth to thpeculate, becauthe they do lithp, and Tarmogoyf hath toughneth of 1.

[thefringthing]

Vanilla 4/5 for two that can't get around a TNN? Unplayable.

[Lord Seth]

One may just dream how the format (and the whole game for that matter) would be different if Goyf would have ben printed with an initial p/t of 0/0, thus removing both the "Wall of Goyfs" aspect and the bit-of-an-indestructibility that Goyf sports (esp. when we're considering direct damage spells). I guess that this game would be far more healthy with a common :1::g: Weregoyf that needs some time to grow while tapping for green (pretend that it matters), and a similar yet different rare :1::g: Tarmobear that "reaches thresh" as far as turn2, but on the other hand has no abilities and dies to RiP, Relic, Morningtide or whatever.
Alas, there's no point in dreaming, esp. when the results of this "what if 0/0" scenario can't be told.
The funny thing is that the original design for Tarmogoyf WAS */*, not */*+1.

[Meekrab]

The funny thing is that the original design for Tarmogoyf WAS */*, not */*+1.
Also 1GG, no?

[Derklord]

The funny thing is that the original design for Tarmogoyf WAS */*, not */*+1.But then someone remembered WotCs prime directive, i.e. that every totally overpowered creature's got to have an extra toughness. Just like flipped Delver or DRS.

[Lord Seth]

But then someone remembered WotCs prime directive, i.e. that every totally overpowered creature's got to have an extra toughness. Just like flipped Delver or DRS.
Actually, no. What happened was that it was designed it as a */* with a casting cost of 2G. But it later got kicked out of the file to make room for planeswalkers. But then they decided to save the planeswalkers for the next set instead, and Tarmogoyf came back. However, it was recreated from memory by someone other than the original designer, who just assumed that as a Tarmogoyf variant it would be */*+1. Then during development it got dropped to 1G with the reasoning it was just a beater without evasion.

The story can be found here (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/170), though you have to scroll down about 2/3 of the page to get to Tarmogoyf.

[(nameless one)]

I was one of those idiots that traded a couple of Tarmogoyfs at prerelease for a Lord of Atlantises and Riptide Pilferers. How I regret that day.

I was building a Legacy Merfolk Static Orb/Opposition deck for Legacy.

But then who would have thought right? I still got my Wastelands and FoWs for $10 and $15 each.

[Derklord]

Actually, no. What happened was that it was designed it as a */* with a casting cost of 2G. But it later got kicked out of the file to make room for planeswalkers. But then they decided to save the planeswalkers for the next set instead, and Tarmogoyf came back. However, it was recreated from memory by someone other than the original designer, who just assumed that as a Tarmogoyf variant it would be */*+1. Then during development it got dropped to 1G with the reasoning it was just a beater without evasion.Ok, let me get this straigth: To spoil a card type that should never have existed (since the players are the planeswalkers) they created a creature that is so retardedly overpowered that the card is more expensive than most duals?
I presume they never playtested the new version, just like they changed Academy to blue mana after playtesting...
Does anyone know if Jace got added a fourth ability after playtesting, too?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

The story can be found here (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/170), though you have to scroll down about 2/3 of the page to get to Tarmogoyf.

"I turned the card in as a 2 ManaGreen Mana */*. While I'm a huge fan of Lhurgoyf, I never liked the *+1 toughness. I feel like it added inelegance for the sole purpose of keeping the card alive on an empty graveyard, so when I made my Lhurgoyf riff, I made it */* instead. "

So true... :frown:

[DragoFireheart]

So how well has our favorite 1G beater been holding up? Price wise he's doing quite well for himself. Even got a new art update this past year!

Will people ever stop playing Tarmogoyf?

[jtos84]

So how well has our favorite 1G beater been holding up? Price wise he's doing quite well for himself. Even got a new art update this past year!

Will people ever stop playing Tarmogoyf?

They might if TNN and Griselbrand continue to dominate the format.

[JPoJohnson]

I doubt they'll stop playing it. It's just such a great beater for such a low investment.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Griselbrand, although stupid card and a design mistake/insult, is nowhere near to dominate anything.

[Lemnear]

Griselbrand, although stupid card and a design mistake/insult, is nowhere near to dominate anything.

Gentleman's Agreement ... ;P