[Discussion] Right time to fire glass cannons?

[GreenOne]

The format substantially splits in:
Aggro: Goblins
AggroControl: Threshold, Fish, SuiVariants
Combo: TES, Belcher, Ichorid, Cephalid Breakfast.
And other random decks.

As we can see, the format is somewhat driven by creatures, being those Lackeys, Tarmogoyfs, 1/1 Goblin tokens, 2/2 Zombie Tokens, etc.

Is there a known deck that have an unbelievable match against aggro AND aggrocontrol?

I mean, something like Rift is for Goblins AND Truffle Shuffle is for Threshold?
If such a deck exist it could take advantage of the aggroish part of the combo decks in the format and try to steal some G1s with Pyroclasm or EE for those ETW tokens.

Some possibilities:
43Lands
Rift - Goblins is a bye, threshold is just a nice matchup.
Truffle Shuffle - Threshold is a bye, Goblins is slightly unfavorable.
Train Wreck - Thresh is good, goblins is so so.
Enchantress - Good Goblins MU, so so Thresh.


Other possibilities?

[Silverdragon]

Imho a deck in this metagame has to include either Chalice or the Counterbalance engine (against all the aggro-control and combo) and some amount of cheap boardsweepers (EE, Pyroclasm etc). From there you can either go the aggro route with cheap and big beaters (for example Tarmogoyf, Juggernaut) or the control route with lots of cardadvantage (Fact or Fiction, Smokestack come to mind). Ideally you'd also have Force of Will to stop random turn 1 wins when on the draw.
Because the Chalice based decks lack consistency I'd say the best choice is either Landstill or a properly tuned Threshold.
As you can see I came to the same conclusion most of the Gen Con Top 8 and the Iserlohn Top8 came and I don't think that's suprising. The only alternative I see is to play a superfast combodeck yourself and try to get lucky.
Of course with the metagame shifting in this direction I can see Goblins (that is very resilient against one-shot boardsweepers) rise again because it doesn't care that much about Counterspells or Chalice.

[Xero]

I think playing a deck that is geared to beating Thresh (like Truffle Shuffle or Stax) could be the right call in certain metas. If the number of aggro-control decks continues to climb, combo could be hurt, so running a board control deck could be a good choice.

[Illissius]

I've had this thought, but what you have to watch out for with the combo decks is that although you can stop them quite well if they go for an early EtW, which they normally do often, you also need a way to win if they wise up to this and just sit back for a few turns before killing you with Belcher or Tendrils.

[from Cairo]

From Silverdragon's post it would seem like Faerie Stompy should be flourishing right now, given chalices, a solid clock, FoW back up, and access to EE for 0-2 (if you run one off color dual). But also as pointed out, Goblins doesn't really care about Chalices or EE, so in metas with a fair bit of Goblins <most major events> it doesn't seem likely to see this deck dominating.

[honz]

I think enchantress a viable option. It has a very good aggro MU, and has an even to favorable MU against thresh. Most importantly, enchantress beats the decks that beat thresh (ichorid). I think it is rather underrated and overlooked, and could pull a big win (if anyone has a pair of moats sitting around...)

[Happy Gilmore]

The format substantially splits in:
Aggro: Goblins
AggroControl: Threshold, Fish, SuiVariants
Combo: TES, Belcher, Ichorid, Cephalid Breakfast.
And other random decks.

As we can see, the format is somewhat driven by creatures, being those Lackeys, Tarmogoyfs, 1/1 Goblin tokens, 2/2 Zombie Tokens, etc.

Is there a known deck that have an unbelievable match against aggro AND aggrocontrol?

I mean, something like Rift is for Goblins AND Truffle Shuffle is for Threshold?
If such a deck exist it could take advantage of the aggroish part of the combo decks in the format and try to steal some G1s with Pyroclasm or EE for those ETW tokens.

Some possibilities:
43Lands
Rift - Goblins is a bye, threshold is just a nice matchup
Truffle Shuffle - Threshold is a bye, Goblins is slightly unfavorable
Train Wreck - Thresh is good, goblins is so so.

Other possibilities?

I'm actually kind of sick of hearing this. I have actually never seen Truffle Shuffle beat Threshold in a major tournament. If anything it has a negative record against the deck. Train Wreck on the other had is a nightmare for Thresh.

[GreenOne]

I'm actually kind of sick of hearing this. I have actually never seen Truffle Shuffle beat Threshold in a major tournament. If anything it has a negative record against the deck. Train Wreck on the other had is a nightmare for Thresh.

Well, truffle shuffle is not a heavily played deck, so maybe it just got screwed in the 2 matches vs thresh it had, however, the matchup from testing is heavily on Truffle side, at least with UGw Thresh.


I think enchantress a viable option. It has a very good aggro MU, and has an even to favorable MU against thresh. Most importantly, enchantress beats the decks that beat thresh (ichorid). I think it is rather underrated and overlooked, and could pull a big win (if anyone has a pair of moats sitting around...)

I never found Enchantress to be a bad matchup for Threshold (preboard), they just counter your engine and beat down. What's the list you're playing? However, enchantress can be a good idea, I'll add it to the list of possibilities.

[SuckerPunch]

"Is there a known deck that have an unbelievable match against aggro AND aggrocontrol?"

Vodka Pox fits your requirements perfectly.

It runs 4x Ghostly Prison MD and 4x T of PV either card capable of shutting out Goblins on its own. Plus it runs more aggro hate (Infest) in the board.

It runs about 20 land destruction effects maindeck which give Gro type decks an extremely hard time, esp since many of those land destruction effects (Pox, Smallpox) make them sacrifice their creatures too. The aforementioned Ghostly Prison and Tabernacle maindeck screw with Gros creatures a lot too combined with all the land destruction. In addition, it has the Crucible + Wasteland lock maindeck which really screws over Gro decks a good bit. Plus it has a lot more hate against gro in the board in the form of Trinisphere.

Of the three tiers you listed, its weakest maindeck match is combo but even against them, it runs 4 Duress and 4 Hymn maindeck. Postboard, it has a lot more combo hate including Trinisphere, Chalice and Extripate in some builds.

And it tops it all of with a Tombstalker for the win.

[honz]

The great thing about enchantress is, all you need to do is resolve 1 of your 8 enchantresses, and you will soon outdraw them. Since you don't need to resolve anything to draw cards, you should easily start to find what you need. If the thresh player uses all his counters on your engine, then you can just drop a moat FTW; or you can simply replenish everything he countered. Also, an enchantress + words of war is ussually enough to take down a any of thresh's creatures (except mongoose).

Post board, thresh really starts to hurt. A third replenish is brought in, with 2 chokes, and 1-2 city of solitude. I also run 4 MD groves to find what i need. A resolved replenish / city / choke / moat is ussually game over. If they manage to counter words, sacred mesa, and 2 replenish, then enchantress can't win. However, enchantress has a strong enough engine, that it will find them before you can find 4 FoWs.

[SpikeyMikey]

The problem with trying to design a deck with a favorable matchup against everything, *especially* in the current format, is that there are too many powerhouse cards in Legacy right now that will almost certainly win the game if unanswered for two turns. Counterbalance is one, SoFI is another, Lackey is a third, Goblin Charbelcher and ETW round off a quick list off the top of my head. Then there are the "I might not lose but I'm still pretty screwed" cards, Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Isochron Scepter(yes, I know hardly anyone plays this, but SDZ is still viable in the current meta), Jotun Grunt and Hypnotic Specter, to name a few.

If you're not playing a fast deck, you have to overload on removal in order to be certain that you're not going to lose to the early/mid game powerhouses that pop up, and that means that you've got very little room for business. Since creature removal is at a premium, this means your win either has to fall into the realm of artifacts/enchantments(this is dangerous in a post-Grip world) or it has to be untargetable(which limits your options a great deal).

I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but I've played around with it quite a bit, and I've decided that reactive just isn't good enough in this format, the mana acceleration just isn't there, the field is too varied, there isn't enough playable draw, you're forced to run bad answers to deal with early threats(like Daze), and all of this combines to make any disruption your opponent runs that much stronger against you, and you can bet any tournament you go to, you'll see a Duress, or a Hymn, or a Therapy, or a Wasteland, or a Needle, or a whatever. I think your best option, if you're looking to have an all around competitive deck, is to run something with a decently fast clock and some flexible reactive spells, Deed/Vindicate/FoW/EE that sort of thing.

[outsideangel]

I think your best option, if you're looking to have an all around competitive deck, is to run something with a decently fast clock and some flexible reactive spells, Deed/Vindicate/FoW/EE that sort of thing.

Counterspells are some of the most flexible reactive spells. Guess which deck runs countermagic and a good clock, with a pinch of undercosted removal and a handful of cantrips to find it all? Yeah, that one.

[GreenOne]

The problem with trying to design a deck with a favorable matchup against everything, *especially* in the current format

That thread is not for building a deck that has a favorable matchup against everything, is for a deck that pwns every sort of aggro (being it lackey, jotun grunts, tarmogoyf or hordes of ETW/Zombie tokens). That's it.



If you're not playing a fast deck, you have to overload on removal in order to be certain that you're not going to lose to the early/mid game powerhouses that pop up, and that means that you've got very little room for business.

That's somewhat how control decks work.



Since creature removal is at a premium, this means your win either has to fall into the realm of artifacts/enchantments(this is dangerous in a post-Grip world) or it has to be untargetable(which limits your options a great deal).


Well, pure critter removal is not that high at the moment, but I can see the point.



I think your best option, if you're looking to have an all around competitive deck, is to run something with a decently fast clock and some flexible reactive spells, Deed/Vindicate/FoW/EE that sort of thing.

Here again, we're not searching the best deck in the format against the field, just a glass cannon to shoot in metas where the aggroish component is high even in combo decks.

[Eldariel]

I think Rifter is what we're looking for then. It's the best deck to bring against all the different aggro around, ranging from cheap sweepers to midgame tools, a non-glacial win condition and a lots of plain powerful cards.

Besides that though, the RW Quake-deck I was working with some time ago seems pretty darn good here too with lots of pro-red (seeing that Threshold/R is the most common variant, that's handy), 7 cheap sweepers and a bunch of huge threats against Threshold (Chalice, Jotun Grunt, Jitte, Exalted Angel) along with scaleable sweepers so they can take out even big, Threshed creatures.

[TheAardvark]

I'm actually kind of sick of hearing this. I have actually never seen Truffle Shuffle beat Threshold in a major tournament. If anything it has a negative record against the deck. Train Wreck on the other had is a nightmare for Thresh.

I went 2-1 against Thresh at the Legacy Champs last weekend, losing the one match to a very well timed Wasteland. The red splash versions have more game against Truffle, but the straight U/G and white splash builds are easier, with the white splash being an almost auto-win.