Where Have the Goblins Gone?

[andrew77]

How much has tarmogoy impacted the thresh/goblin matchup? I personally don't really follow decks that aren't combo based so after seeing the results from legacy champs i'm pretty surprised to see no goblin decks, and well thats bad because goblin decks are a combo players best friend.

My question is do you think goblins were just less played than usual or that the big bad tarmogoys have given threshold the edge it needed in the thresh goblin matchup?

[thefreakaccident]

How much has tarmogoy impacted the thresh/goblin matchup? I personally don't really follow decks that aren't combo based so after seeing the results from legacy champs i'm pretty surprised to see no goblin decks, and well thats bad because goblin decks are a combo players best friend.

My question is do you think goblins were just less played than usual or that the big bad tarmogoys have given threshold the edge it needed in the thresh goblin matchup?

Yes on both fronts... threshold does now have a positive goblin MU (or at least mine seems to), and less goblin decks have been played because of it.

I can see goblins going on the decline seeing as the second most popular deck (perhapes thresh is the most popular deck now, who knows) now has a powerful tool against them (Tarmogoyf)... the matchup was always slightly better than 40/60 going into goblins favor mainly due to the fact that werebears would sometimes not get big and sometimes goblins would pack pyrokenesis.

Goyf doesn't come out small early game, and he can get out of pyro range very easily... put that into account with the awesome boarding action that both major variants have for that MU, it would be shocking to hear thresh didn't have a positive MU.

It is also partially your fault (let me explain before you get offended), as you had said goblins is a combo deck's best friend... and everyone has been noticing a rise in combo attendance recently, why play something if it's worst MU is popping up everywhere.

I wouldn't play thresh if I was expecting a lot of 4c landstill if you know what I mean?

[Jak]

I doubt goblins have gone away because of thresh. It isn't good that thresh is splashing red for pyroclasm, but I am pretty sure combo caused it.

Tarmogoyf definitely helped the MU though. Being able to be more aggro and bigger creatures, while still keeping a strong counter and cantrip base is just amazing and good.

[Nihil Credo]

Goblins should get back to splashing White. Swords to Plowshares maindeck seems nowadays more important than sideboard Krosan Grip.

Alternatively, some more work could be put in those Chalice Goblins list, which also should significantly improve the aggro-control matchup.

[MattH]

Goblins is going down because people are playing more Clasms.

[The Rack]

Goblins is dying because it truly is no fun to play. The declare attackers step is about as interesting as it gets but with say Threshold or something it's more fun because you aren't seeing 30 of the same card, you are some counter some draw some creatures and some removal. COmbo is simply an outright blast to play with most storm decks (severance belcher being the exception). I don't see why you would play a "game" and not have fun playing it, it doesn't make sense to me.

[Bryant Cook]

Thats why I exclusively play combo, it's sooo much fun. I could play the best deck in the format and be bored to death or I could have fun. What one would you do?

[The Rack]

I totally agree with you wastedlife, i mean so many people have lost the meaning of the game. You can't make enough money to make it a living so it has to be just a past time. That is why games are made right?

[Bryant Cook]

I don't understand how landstill players live with themselves. They must feel like they're diving into an infinite abyss. Just remember to play a fun deck that wins is my moto (TES, Breakfast, Ichorid).

[nitewolf9]

I don't understand how landstill players live with themselves. They must feel like they're diving into an infinite abyss. Just remember to play a fun deck that wins is my moto (TES, Breakfast, Ichorid).

Fun is relative. Some people love making life miserable for others. Why do you think dentistry has survived as a profession? Oral health care? Probably. Vanity? Maybe. Sadism? Probably not, but it sure helps. Especially when you get your wisdom teeth pulled with local anesthetic. Man, I was gona punch my dentist in the balls after that one...if the legal repercussions wouldn't have effected my career so drastically. Maybe I should just unearth my giant people-baking oven or start spreading cholera through that food service that delivers pre-made meals to the elderly. Dear Jesus, what am I talking about.

[goobafish]

I don't understand how landstill players live with themselves. They must feel like they're diving into an infinite abyss. Just remember to play a fun deck that wins is my moto (TES, Breakfast, Ichorid).

I am mainly a combo player and I love playing Landstill... I played it in the Vintage champs and absolutely loved it. I also love watching Mattuzio play it.

[Bane of the Living]

The only thing worse than playing a long game against or with Landstill is watching one go on!!

Goblins have been put aside for new fun decks. I think it saw a big surge when newer players hoped into the format. Most people obtained the cards they want for their other projects.

I also blame Tarmagoyf..

[Tacosnape]

I sort of agree with the "Fun" factor.

I don't think anything has driven Goblins out of the metagame. If anything, it's being driven back in. The high rise in Threshold and Landstill is hurting Storm Combo, and the combo decks that do well against these decks, like Cephalid Breakfast and Ichorid, are nowhere near as difficult for Goblins as combo decks of the past. And while Tarmogoyf has taken away the edge that Goblins has always held in the Gob-Thresh matchup, It's still far from a nightmare for Goblins, especially with Spell Snare growing in popularity.

But mostly, Goblins isn't making top 8 because almost none of the top tier players are playing it.

[Bryant Cook]

Quit bringing serious conversation here.

"Where have the Goblins Gone?" The answer: In Taco's pantz.

[frogboy]

I dunno how anyone could say a deck that plays lots of basic mountains and attacks isn't fun. What the hell is wrong with you people?

[Pinder]

I think that mainly Goblins has left the format because of both Tarmogoyf and Combo. There are so many viable combo decks out there right now that it's pushing Goblins out of the format. The fundamental turn in Legacy is probably sitting at about turns 2-3 (or possibly even 1-2), and without some sort of control measure by those turns, even Goblins can't hope to win that fast. The absolute fastest goldfish Goblins has is turn 3, and I'm afraid that in the current Legacy, that's just too slow. It certainly sounds weird to say it, but it's true. Add to that the fact that Threshold, a once slightly favorable matchup for Gobs, now has Tarmogoyf and more people are splashing red and have Clasms out of the board (or even maindeck). So the one semi-favorable matchup Goblins had in the new meta is gone, and the number of bad matchups it has is rapidly increasing (TES, IGGy Pop, Ichorid Combo, Breakfast, hell even SI).

Bottom line, the meta as it stands right now is mainly a battle between Combo and Aggro-control (read: Thresh. I mean, I guess there's Slivers and maybe Faerie Stompy and maybe some others, but let's not kid ourselves). As a pure Aggro deck, Goblins is going to have to adjust its strategy pretty dramatically if it wants to stay afloat and play with the new kids. I also expect that since Goblins is on the decline and Thresh is on the rise to fight combo, we're going to be seeing a lot of dedicated board control (Landstill, Wombat, Truffle Shuffle, etc.) popping up and putting up results in the near future.

[Shriekmaw]

Goblins is going down because people are playing more Clasms.



I believe people are not playing Goblins as much because we have all these idiots that think winning on turn 1 all the time is fun. Wait, that is a lot of fun. Never mind.

[Tacosnape]

Quit bringing serious conversation here.

"Where have the Goblins Gone?" The answer: In Taco's pantz.

Agreed. It's like a playset of Siege-Gang Commanders in here.

[thulnanth]

Agreed. It's like a playset of Siege-Gang Commanders in here.

May I ask you to please refrain from comments like this - I just shot coffee out my nose I laughed so hard :laugh:

(off to find a napkin)...

Take it easy,
Jared

[Phya]

From my experience the disappearance of Gobs can be attributed to the rise of a number of decks:

1) UGr Threshold: Fire/Ice + Pyroclasm + gigantic creatures and a clock that's almost as fast as Gobs. Rips up the early game and then crushes them before they can rebuild.
2) Belcher: This deck is now played at every tournament in my area, and Gobs really has no way of making this match up favourable.
3) Enchantress: I may have beaten this deck once in over 20 games. They almost always have GP/EG in play turn 3 which slows Gobs to around turn 6 at which point Enchantress has 20 enchantments in play including Confinement + Sterling Grove.
4) Black-based Control: It used to be that Gobs would roll over any non-Rifter control deck, but it has a very hard time dealing with the combination of Darkblast, Smallpox and Engineered Plague. Damn control players need to learn Goblins isn't viable anymore so they stop sideboarding against it. :laugh:

That was the long version. The short version:

The metagame sucks.

[Tacosnape]

From my experience the disappearance of Gobs can be attributed to the rise of a number of decks:

1) UGr Threshold: Fire/Ice + Pyroclasm + gigantic creatures and a clock that's almost as fast as Gobs. Rips up the early game and then crushes them before they can rebuild.
2) Belcher: This deck is now played at every tournament in my area, and Gobs really has no way of making this match up favourable.
3) Enchantress: I may have beaten this deck once in over 20 games. They almost always have GP/EG in play turn 3 which slows Gobs to around turn 6 at which point Enchantress has 20 enchantments in play including Confinement + Sterling Grove.
4) Black-based Control: It used to be that Gobs would roll over any non-Rifter control deck, but it has a very hard time dealing with the combination of Darkblast, Smallpox and Engineered Plague. Damn control players need to learn Goblins isn't viable anymore so they stop sideboarding against it. :laugh:


1. UGR Threshold is arguably the only Threshold deck that might be better than 50/50 against Goblins. So what? It's still winnable. Engineered Explosives is still awesome, and a large supply of Tin-Street Hooligans will keep Pithing Needle off your ass.

2. My Goblin deck is slightly favored against Belcher, and yours can be too. I run both Engineered Explosives and Pithing Needle in my board, and Pyrokinesis is good against Belcher because whereas decks like Epic Storm may frequently Empty the Warrens for 14+, Belcher tends to average about 8-10, and a single Pyrokinesis can let you survive this from time to time (And a double Pyro definitely will.) Needle on Belcher is solid, and if they drop one unattended, Tin-Street picks it off. Game 1 is admittedly a nightmare, but you can periodically pull it off by assailing Taiga and Mox with Wasteland and Tin-Street respectively if they don't get a first turn blaster draw.

3. Enchantress is a bitch, yes indeed. Engineered Explosives and Krosan Grip will help keep them off of their draw engines, though (Or their manabase depending on the situation). Most of the games I win here involve throwing goblins via Siege-Gang Commander.

4. It does? This is news to me. Black-based control is rampant in my metagame and I roll over it, Plagues and Darkblasts and all.

[SuckerPunch]

4. It does? This is news to me. Black-based control is rampant in my metagame and I roll over it, Plagues and Darkblasts and all.

Depends on the list. Between the maindeck and the sideboard, Vodka Pox runs 4 Ghostly Prison and 4 Tabernacle of Pendrall Vale and 2-4 Infests. This along with 22 Land destruction spells maindeck, 8 of which are Pox effects that make them sac their creatures, plus 4 2cc 5/5 flyers (Tombstalker). It does fine against goblins and aggro in general.

[C.P.]

4. It does? This is news to me. Black-based control is rampant in my metagame and I roll over it, Plagues and Darkblasts and all.

It does when you face Plague, Blast, Goyf, Deed in one deck, the latter three maindecked. Phya put it in wrong way, but the decks he's talking about is the ones in line Aggro control, not a straight control.

Our team has been working on W splash and I still think it is the best answer to the metagame. I felt Chants and abeyances are just as good as it gets to beat storm combo.

Oh, and He runs Needle, and Disenchant is maindecked. No E plague sucks, but I don't think the white splash is that poorly equipped against Belcher. It is just matter of you-lose-if-you-lose-die-roll, in my opinion.

[goobafish]

It does when you face Plague, Blast, Goyf, Deed in one deck, the latter three maindecked. Phya put it in wrong way, but the decks he's talking about is the ones in line Aggro control, not a straight control.

Our team has been working on W splash and I still think it is the best answer to the metagame. I felt Chants and abeyances are just as good as it gets to beat storm combo.

Oh, and He runs Needle, and Disenchant is maindecked. No E plague sucks, but I don't think the white splash is that poorly equipped against Belcher. It is just matter of you-lose-if-you-lose-die-roll, in my opinion.

How does the white spalsh affect the Thresh matchup? Seems like you only get a few swords, which really dilute the deck. Then Thresh just sides in clasms, and x for 1 you.

[dlevsApiJ]

Jotun Grunt..

[goobafish]

Jotun Grunt..
I am asking about his list, which I do not believe has grunts. And even if it does, it is even easier to counter because you can snare it. Grunt isn't that fantastic anymore because goyf is bigger.

[dlevsApiJ]

After 1-3 turns he isnt bigger (or i has to be very late-game)...
Have you ever tested the card against *****? I think you didn't.

Mvg

[goobafish]

After 1-3 turns he isnt bigger (or i has to be very late-game)...
Have you ever tested the card against *****? I think you didn't.

Mvg

I play thresh, and I have tested MANY times against it. It really isn't that bad, especially at CMC 2. When you have no other Snare targets in your deck except Piledrivers, it is just asking to be snared or even burned.

[C.P.]

How does the white spalsh affect the Thresh matchup? Seems like you only get a few swords, which really dilute the deck. Then Thresh just sides in clasms, and x for 1 you.

Our list (Phya's mainly, I guess) Runs Meekstone as an answer to giant critters. White itself is not all that great, except the swords.

[dlevsApiJ]

You play anti-arti Goblins (Tinkerer/Hooligan), and if you splash only white also Disenchant (not so good example). But you can Vial the grunt into the game.. thats very nice as instant-blocker, and there arent so many other cards to vial in with a vial on 2.
You havent always mana for Spell Snare fast in the game (turn 2 goyf, en then from my side a turn 2 Jotun grunt, ok you can counter with FoW and Daze, but you can counter al the grave-hate cards with them) and there are some build with BeB/Hydroblast, they can't counter it...

Mvg

[jazzykat]

Girls have picked them every one?

Seriously and I think its been said:

Tarmogoyf
Combo got Faster

[goobafish]

Our list (Phya's mainly, I guess) Runs Meekstone as an answer to giant critters. White itself is not all that great, except the swords.

I love it.


but you can counter al the grave-hate cards with them
What is this? 2006? Graveyard hate dosen't really hurt thresh, we have goyfs... I would save counters for grunt and not crypts.

[dlevsApiJ]

Ok, then you think everything you say is right and everything i say is stupid.. also good. you can't counter my vialed Grunt, and he really hurts you..

Mvg

P.s. Please even response on my good points, not only the things wehere you can say from they are stupid..

[goobafish]

Ok, then you think everything you say is right and everything i say is stupid.. also good. you can't counter my vialed Grunt, and he really hurts you..

Mvg

It isn't about being right or stupid. It is about testing. How much new thresh vs. grunt decks testing have you done? I have been playing UGr thresh since columbus, and I am well aware as to what hurts and what dosen't. Grunts were rampant at columbus, and heavily played at Gencon. And between.

No, I can't counter your vialed grunt, which, if you can get it, with no draw engine or tutors (Matron or ringleader don't fetch grunt) then it hurts.


You havent always mana for Spell Snare fast in the game (turn 2 goyf, en then from my side a turn 2 Jotun grunt, ok you can counter with FoW and Daze

Why would I need to lay a Turn 2 goyf If I have no counters in hand? Unless you have a Lackey on board which I haven't burned, there should be no reason you are totally broken on board by turn 2. But yes, if you have a totally broken board, and I drop a goyf, you return with a grunt that I cannot daze or force, then yes it does hurt, but the situation seems unlikely. If you are already in a broken position, then I am probably not winning anyways.

[dlevsApiJ]

I can get them: its called topdecking and opening hand.
I don't say the matchup is good for goblins since Tarmo...

Mvg

[goobafish]

Which means that even if it is a 4 of in your sideboard or main, if you do not hit one by what you consider to be the critical turn 2, then I will probably have accumulated counters to stop him late game. Grunt is a very good card, but It probably dosen't belong in Goblins. I really like the meekstone idea.

[dlevsApiJ]

O, i winn games on the Grunts against ***** (with CotV in the past, now i am testing Engineered Explosives with 3 colers, green white and of course red). Meekstone is really good, yes :) good card to test.

Mvg

[C.P.]

Grunt is a very good card, but It probably dosen't belong in Goblins. I really like the meekstone idea.

Well, since Dom did not want to run 4 in SB, it did not come out as much as we'd like. But there were only 3 matches so far that it came up in tourney, one against Greg, who obviously knew the tech, and against the other two which he did not draw(or one he held off one goose but he would have won anyway). So the tech has not proved itself in a tournament yet.

Good to see you in the source BTW.

EDIT: About Grunt, Goobafish's right. Grunt is whether:

1. win-more
2. you lose anyway or
3. get counter/StP/ETC

SBing it in goblins is probably a bad idea.

[dlevsApiJ]

Then i should play Meekstond instead of Grunt (Meekstond can also "stop" *****, and they dont expect him, so they dont board in Arti/Enchantment removal).

I am happy that here the "meta-switch" isnt so big as in America, here also Combo and ***** are played more, but not very much, and Goblins also is played as before (especially by new players).

Mvg

[Tacosnape]

Depends on the list. Between the maindeck and the sideboard, Vodka Pox runs 4 Ghostly Prison and 4 Tabernacle of Pendrall Vale and 2-4 Infests. This along with 22 Land destruction spells maindeck, 8 of which are Pox effects that make them sac their creatures, plus 4 2cc 5/5 flyers (Tombstalker). It does fine against goblins and aggro in general.

I refuse to accept any answer involving the alteration or distortion of a metagame based on the presence of terrible decks.

[Phya]

Eeep. Well, my Goblins list from my latest tournament for those interested:

4x Plateau
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Wooded Foothils
7x Mountain
4x Wasteland
1x Dust Bowl

4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
3x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Mogg Fanatic
1x Goblin Tinkerer
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

4x Aether Vial
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Disenchant

SB:

4x Orim's Chant
3x Pyrokinesis
3x Pithing Needle
3x Meekstone
2x Abeyance

However Pyrokineses and Pithing Needle have been mediocre. Pyrokinesis because there are very few match ups where it's useful (although it's a bomb when it is) and Pithing Needle because there's a billion match ups where it's useful but it rarely is useful enough to change the game. I'm sure I want to cut a Needle for an StP and right now I've cut them entirely for 2 more Disenchants but I'm not sure that the right idea.

Last tournament (0-3): The day after I won a mox with the exact same deck.

Round 1 Mono-Black Control: I win game one easily but get my lackey and first land hit by small pox in game 2 and can't recover. Game 3 is first turn plague, 3rd turn plague with Sinkholes and Wastelands to keep me off white mana.

Round 2 Iggy Pop: I lose game 1 on turn 2, but Chant him out of the win in game 2. Game 3 I have a 4th turn win and an Orim's Chant but fail to find white mana and get killed on turn 3.

Round 3 R/B Stax-ish Land Destruction: Another easy win game 1. Game 2 I mull to 5 and I see Lackey, Vial and one land. He drops first turn Trinisphere. Oops. Game 3 my first turn Lackey meets first turn Plague and he quickly destroys all my land but not my vial. I beat him to 3 before he draws another Plague.

I know it sounds like it's just a bad day but really the black control match is pretty typical for me. It's usually either a blow out in my favour or I have 0 permanents on turn 3. I don't like having to rely on my opponent getting a bad hand to win.

So I'm probably going to hang up Goblins for a while, since there are a few old archetypes that I think could be very strong right now. I think Goblins will be in the same boat if it drops to tier 1.5.