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SuckerPunch
08-19-2007, 09:41 AM
After Tarmogoyf saw print, I and I am sure several other thresh players were toying around the idea of developing a version of Threshold that sticks with UG to have a manabase that can support Wasteland alongside Stifle as we've wanted to do for so long.

Now I heard over the grapevine that Peter Olszewski aka. DicemanX not only tested and tuned such a list but managed to win the 2007 Legacy Championship with it!

It makes sense that the same person who was a huge proponent and driving force behind budget decks in Vintage before the format split introduces us to this deck. Congratulations are certainly in order.

I think it would be good to get a discussion going for UG Thresh as I think the deck is certainly a viable alternative for players wanting a more stable manabase, wanting to play land destruction in Thresh, or are on a tighter budget.

1 Breeding Pool
2 Island
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Predict
4 Portent
4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare
1 Rushing River
1 Snapback

Sideboard
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Krosan Grip
2 Hail Storm

Here are some questions to direct the discussion.

Was the Breeding Pool the correct call or should it be another fetchland or perhaps a basic forest?

Should the deck be playing Serum Visions in place of some of the Predicts? 4 Predict seems like overkill without Serum Visions. And Serum Visions has great synergy with Tarmogoyf as well.

Should the deck be playing Engineered Explosives? It synergies with Goyf nicely and acts as removal.

Rushing River and Snapback as 1 ofs, is one card better than the other? Is creature bounce the only way to make up for the deck's lack of removal? Or should we be looking at cards like Piracy Charm (extremely versatile) or maybe even Ovinize if we're really desperate to deal with larger blockers? I think Ovinize is certainly subpar but thought it was atleast worth a mention.

Spell Snare, yes or no? I personally am a fan.

Is the Counterbalance/Top engine worthwhile in the sideboard?

Does Jitte as a 4 of in the board make sense in spite of the low creature count?

And most importantly of all, is the trade off (no removal) worth the mana disruption the deck can finally run.R

kabal
08-19-2007, 10:08 AM
Was the Breeding Pool the correct call or should it be another fetchland or perhaps a basic forest?


I'd go...

1 Breeding Pool
2 Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland




Should the deck be playing Serum Visions in place of some of the Predicts? 4 Predict seems like overkill without Serum Visions. And Serum Visions has great synergy with Tarmogoyf as well.


Since the creature base includes 8 threshold creatures, then I'd say it is the right call. Either you want to go with Predict or mental note depending on your play style.




Should the deck be playing Engineered Explosives? It synergies with Goyf nicely and acts as removal.


Meta game call.




Rushing River and Snapback as 1 ofs, is one card better than the other? Is creature bounce the only way to make up for the deck's lack of removal? Or should we be looking at cards like Giant Growth, Ovinize and Piracy Charm to deal with larger blockers?


This is the reason I prefer to play NQG w/ red. It makes the Goblin match up so much easier. Something tells me he didn't play against too many Goblins decks. Since this isn't the question, I'd say it was a good call. The way you also need to look at it is that you don't just use it as removal, but to bounce your own creatures in the face of removal.




Spell Snare, yes or no? I personally am a fan.


Again, a meta game call. Apparently the top 8 has shown that.



Is the Counterbalance/Top engine worthwhile in the sideboard?


You are either going with it or more of a standard board.




Does Jitte as a 4 of in the board make sense in spite of the low creature count?

This is the one I don't agree with. You can only equip it to 8 creatures and the build in question has almost no creature removal. I'd have to see his notes to see how often he boarded them in. Looking at the top 8, Tarmogofy vs. Tarmogofy leads to a stale mate unless someone has a way to ping for the extra point of damage, which red splash does.

On a side note what I do hope is more people start playing this build, since my MD Pithing Needles and SB graveyard hate just become infinitely more valuable.

SuckerPunch
08-19-2007, 10:20 AM
I really don't think Breeding Pool belongs unless your particular meta is packed with Stifle effects.

I think a case could be made that the build may be better off going with the 2 Serum Vision + 3 Mental Note or 3 Predict plan.

I definately agree with you that Jitte doesn't make too much sense.

I think we should atleast consider Piracy Charm.

It kills Lackey dead.
Giving Goyf islandwalk against chump blockers or a +2 when he is unblocked will win many games.
It will let you trade your Mongoose with a Jotun Grunt. It will even let you trade your Wearbear or Mongoose with an opposing Goyf early on if you're desperate.
And instant speed discard is pretty damn nice when your opponent doesn't have board advantage and is in top deck mode.

If only this deck had more Rancor targets, it would be absolutely fantastic with Goyf and Werebear.

Misdirection also has potential in both counterwars, and to turn removal aimed at your creatures into the much needed removal aimed at their creatures.

Shugyosha
08-19-2007, 10:24 AM
Snapback and Rushing River are no removal spells unless they are paired up with countermagic. I would prefer something else and more of it: Repeal, 2 Jitte main or Pongify+Repeal (which is really strong).
Explosives can only hit things for 0-2 in this deck and all your permanents cost 1-2 so I think it's actually pretty bad to play it.

Predict is much better than Serum Visions here not only because of the reasons kabal mentioned. It's also very strong when playing Portent on your opponent and Predict a strong card away or against your opponents with Counterbalance or "top of the library" tutors.

I don't see the reason to play Balance/Top in the board with the already large number of good counters main. I would at least cut it down to the usual numbers 3 Balance / 2 Top or play Top main to help set up the four Predicts. Also four Jitte's seem total overkill and Hailstorm is nice but I found it hard to cast against Goblins when playing UGw Thresh although I ran 4 Stifle/2 Needle against their mana denial. I guess Blue Blasts are better here because they are also strong against combo.

kabal
08-19-2007, 10:28 AM
In the end, I look at this build as being a meta game call. If you expect a lot of Ugx Threshold/NQG then I'd bring it. It can heavily disrupt their land base and has more counters then the typically Ugx Threshold/NQG build contains.

Shugyosha
08-19-2007, 10:44 AM
The TES and Belcher matchups are also better than with UGx Threshold. It just looses a bit of power in the aggro-matchup due to the lack of decent removal but with Spell Snare handling Tarmogoyf it should still be good enough.

Brushwagg
08-19-2007, 10:54 AM
Well I was thinking of going straight U/G but the lack of removal really was a problem for me. I felt it would run into the same problems U/G Madness runs into. I would be interested in seeing is match-ups. But if your meta is filled with Goblins or Landstill I don't think it's very viable.


Was the Breeding Pool the correct call or should it be another fetchland or perhaps a basic forest?

Well I think the mana base could go either way. Since it is only 2 colors you could run it as is. I'd probably run the Forest with maybe add in Windswept Heath in there.


Should the deck be playing Serum Visions in place of some of the Predicts? 4 Predict seems like overkill without Serum Visions. And Serum Visions has great synergy with Tarmogoyf as well.

Should Visions replace Predict? NO. Visions could replace Portent, which is in that slot. But I'm not starting that all over(see other Gro/Thresh threads). As far as Predict goes, the deck needs some way of drawing extra cards and the cantrips just don't cut it. Basically Portent is the other set-up spell for the deck.


Should the deck be playing Engineered Explosives? It synergies with Goyf nicely and acts as removal.

Hmm.. Well you could only get it to 2 so I would say board it if you expect ETW to be showing up in force. While you do have 4 Stifle MD sometimes you don't get a chance to use if your on the draw.


Rushing River and Snapback as 1 ofs, is one card better than the other? Is creature bounce the only way to make up for the deck's lack of removal? Or should we be looking at cards like Piracy Charm (extremely versatile) or maybe even Ovinize if we're really desperate to deal with larger blockers? I think Ovinize is certainly subpar but thought it was atleast worth a mention.

@Rushing River:Gives you the chance to bounce 2 non-lands.

@Snapback: You can play it just pitching a blue card.

That said I really don't like just having bounce as my main form of dealing with stuff. Yes it's alright with counterspells but you are always going to 2 for 1 yourself. So it seems meh. As for replacments Pongify might be worth a look. It deals with just about anything, except for a few played creatures. As far as the token goes well most of your creatures are bigger then it.


Spell Snare, yes or no? I personally am a fan.

It does hit alot of the format. So you could get away with it main deck. I'd almost board it but eh.


Is the Counterbalance/Top engine worthwhile in the sideboard?
I've never been a fan of it. But it can be really good in the Storm Combo match. Most of the time it wiffs. So I'd probably not run it, but alot of people will/would. This is more a play style thing if anything.


Does Jitte as a 4 of in the board make sense in spite of the low creature count?

You could probaly get away with 2. Since only 8 of your creatures can carry it. Unless Dryad where added in then maybe bump it up. But 2 is proably enough.

SuckerPunch
08-19-2007, 11:39 AM
I don't like Dryad as the deck already plays a lot of green.

But perhaps Vinelasher Kudzu combined with a higher fetchland count has potential.

Seems iffy to me but it's worth mentioning if you were considering adding Dryad.

Brushwagg
08-19-2007, 05:58 PM
I don't like Dryad as the deck already plays a lot of green.

It's an option to replace Werebear. And it does play alot of Green? In a 60 card deck not even a quarter of the deck is Green (12), where Half of the deck is Blue (30). So Dryad, I think is a viable option.

HdH_Cthulhu
08-19-2007, 06:45 PM
What do you guys think, is the Landstill matchup better with this deck than the old UG/w or /r ?

Eldariel
08-19-2007, 06:50 PM
What do you guys think, is the Landstill matchup better with this deck than the old UG/w or /r ?

It's probably not actually good, but yes, it's better. Wasteland and Stifle allow you to play very RDWesque beatdown role in the match-up, trying to deny them the chance to actually get to cast their big spells. 12 creatures means that they won't have enough cheap removal to keep your back. And the fact that all the creatures are big enough means that your opponent is on a relevant clock even with one creature in play.

Iranon
08-19-2007, 06:50 PM
Not sure if that was a deciding point for the Breeding Pool, but LD on a Tropical Island followed by Extirpate would have been decidedly unfun.

Slightly exotic thing to directly take into account though.

SuckerPunch
08-19-2007, 06:54 PM
Not sure if that was a deciding point for the Breeding Pool, but LD on a Tropical Island followed by Extirpate would have been decidedly unfun.

I would be infinately more concerned about Magus of the Moon or a Crucible + Wasteland lock both of which Pool is just as vulnerable to. Scenarios like that are why I brought up the idea of running a single basic forest. Every one of your 12 threats is green. So it would suck if you were Blood Mooned out of the only color that can cast any of your threats.


It's an option to replace Werebear.

Why would you ever replace Werebear with Dryad? Dryad is strictly inferior to Werebear. There's a reason it hasn't been played in a single Thresh list in years where as Werebear was played as 4x in every one, eventhough the thresh lists during that year ran 4 fewer green cards than this list does.

Once you cut cards to make room for Dryad, you will have 26 blue cards. That really is a low number. Look at any of the old gro lists back when Dryad was popular, they ran atleast 36 nongreen spells and still fell out of favor for Tog and such because they couldn't pump Dryad fast enough.

If I absolutely wanted to up the threat count. I would absolutely run Vinelasher Kudzu before I would Dryad.

But I am hoping someone has a third option thats even stronger.

Goaswerfraiejen
08-19-2007, 07:49 PM
If I absolutely wanted to up the threat count. I would absolutely run Vinelasher Kudzu before I would Dryad.

But I am hoping someone has a third option thats even stronger.


Hidden Gibbons (or Hidden Herd, for that matter)? I guess Wild Mongrel is the other option. There's also Albino Troll, Plant Elemental, etc., but I think that Hidden Gibbons would best occupy the slot. The one drawback is that he isn't much of a topdeck later on--on the other hand, in the early game, he's gonna smash face and pump up Tarmogoyf. I suppose Eternal Witness might be another option, too, but I suspect that's an entirely different kettle of fish.


As for removal, the only blue options, really, are Psionic Blast and Pongify. Of course, neither is going to stop a horde of goblins or goblin tokens. I think I'd prefer either one to Snapback, really. I<m not saying they<re optimal or what you necessarily want in that slot; just that they're pretty much your only in-colour options without going towards EE.

Iranon
08-19-2007, 08:37 PM
I would be infinately more concerned about Magus of the Moon or a Crucible + Wasteland lock both of which Pool is just as vulnerable to. Scenarios like that are why I brought up the idea of running a single basic forest. Every one of your 12 threats is green. So it would suck if you were Blood Mooned out of the only color that can cast any of your threats.

I wholeheartedly agree. Generally, I think that consistency > resilence (at least make your opponent work for screwing you), but the manabase should be reliable enough with a single forest.

SuckerPunch
08-19-2007, 08:57 PM
Yeah, Hidden Gibbons is solid.

There is still a small group of decks that don't run many or any instants (goblins comes to mind). But they seem to be decreasing in number.

The problem with all the Hidden cards is that they can really suck mid-late game as your opponent already casted the cards they needed to.

Another possible option is Skyshroud Elite. Playing it as a 2 of insure that you usually see it midgame, when your opponent is guarenteed to have a nonbasic already out.

But a 2/3 body, while solid looks crappy compared to a 3/3 untargetable.

Maybe we should be looking at a nice fat beater comparable to Mystic Enforcer. Iwamori of Open Fist, while not quite as good as Mystic Enforcer, is still a very solid beatstick at the same casting cost. As a bonus, unlike Mystic Enforcer, he is unaffected by graveyard hate.

It would be good to have one big threat that doesn't give a crap about the graveyard.

So what do you guys think of adding 1-2 Iwamori of Open Fist to the list where Mystic Enforcer used to be played?

As for removal, Psionic Blast seems to be the best option. I think its the best option as far as removal is concerned actually.

One rather unorthodox option is Control Magic. Stealing your opponents best creature is soooo much easier than killing it or countering it and then having to play a threat of your own.

It would make up for the low threat count. And it's at the same casting cost as Mystic Enforcer, only pitchable to Force of Will as well.

I am 80% sure that Control Magic atleast warrants a few sideboard slots.

kabal
08-19-2007, 09:40 PM
Yeah, Hidden Gibbons is solid.


what about Hidden Herd (http://magiccards.info/us/en/262.html)

G (1), Enchantment
When an opponent plays a nonbasic land, if Hidden Herd is an enchantment, Hidden Herd becomes a 3/3 Beast creature.

SuckerPunch
08-19-2007, 10:35 PM
I mainly dislike Hidden Herd because it's a lot worse in the midgame than Hidden Gibbons is.

It's easy for a deck to just stop playing any more nonbasics once they reached the midgame and have several lands down already. It's harder on them to avoid playing cards like Swords to Plowshares and Force of Will.

Plus a 4/4 is a lot better than a 3/3.

Really though, I think those cards are more suited for the sideboard than the maindeck. For the maindeck, I think Iwamori, and Psionic Blast have more potential than either card.

And I definately think Control Magic belongs in the sideboard (or possibly the maindeck) even if only to steal opposing Goyfs and Dreadnoughts.

Goaswerfraiejen
08-19-2007, 11:00 PM
I mainly dislike Hidden Herd because it's a lot worse in the midgame than Hidden Gibbons is.

It's easy for a deck to just stop playing any more nonbasics once they reached the midgame and have several lands down already. It's harder on them to avoid playing cards like Swords to Plowshares and Force of Will.

Plus a 4/4 is a lot better than a 3/3.

The other problem with Hidden Herd is that Fetchlands don't play non-basic lands: they put them into play.


Other than Iwamori, the only feasible things I can think of are Giant Solifuge, Gigapede, Simic Ragworm, Anavolver, Centaur Chieftain, Forgotten Ancient, Ernham Djinn, Kavu Primarch, Pouncing Wurm, Timbermare, Ifh-Biff Efreet, or Waterspout Djinn.

They're not great choices, but I've put the better options (in my opinion) in bold: what interests me most, personally, is Anavolver. On the other hand, paying the kicker cost doesn't make it particularly cheap, and probably means that Iwamori will simply be a better choice. Ifh-Biff Efreet is very interesting, however: it gives you a chance to do some major damage without even attacking. Too bad its ability doesn't hit Goblin tokens.

Control Magic is the interesting third wheel. :smile:

xsockmonkeyx
08-20-2007, 01:09 AM
Now I heard over the grapevine that Peter Olszewski aka. DicemanX not only tested and tuned such a list but managed to win the 2007 Legacy Championship with it!

It makes sense that the same person who was a huge proponent and driving force behind budget decks in Vintage before the format split introduces us to this deck. Congratulations are certainly in order.


I was under the impression that Phan made the deck and that Olszewski picked it up right before the tourney.


In the UG? Lam Phan built it righ before the event. The counterbalance top is in the board. Maindeck Snapback, Portents, Brainstorms, Predict. 12 Creatures for beats. 4 Snares, Stifles, Forces, Dazes ect.

MattH
08-20-2007, 02:29 AM
The other problem with Hidden Herd is that Fetchlands don't play non-basic lands: they put them into play.

Of course, fetchlands are themselves nonbasic.

Goaswerfraiejen
08-20-2007, 03:21 AM
Of course, fetchlands are themselves nonbasic.

Ouch. Now I feel dumb. :tongue:

goobafish
08-20-2007, 03:30 AM
I was under the impression that Phan made the deck and that Olszewski picked it up right before the tourney.

That is absolutely correct. Peter didn't test or make the list. Lam made the lists for 3 of the top 8 thresh players, Peter, Conway and I. Conway and I tested, while Peter was planning on sleeping in to get rested for vintage.

Tacosnape
08-20-2007, 03:36 AM
That is absolutely correct. Peter didn't test or make the list. Lam made the lists for 3 of the top 8 thresh players, Peter, Conway and I. Conway and I tested, while Peter was planning on sleeping in to get rested for vintage.

I told you guys that sleep was tech.:P

goobafish
08-20-2007, 03:56 AM
I meant that he meant to sleep through the Legacy Champs because he hadn't tested, not that we tested and he slept :P.

Illissius
08-20-2007, 05:41 AM
Hunted Wumpus?

Elfrago
08-20-2007, 08:13 AM
IMHO:

- UG has a better matchup aganist UGr or UGw thanks to wasteland & stifle for mana denial and Spell Snare wich is really good in the mirror.

- Lacks of removal: this deck plays the better creatures of the format. There are very few things you need to remove.

luka66_6
08-20-2007, 09:39 AM
You can try Serendib Efreet if you need more creatures.

Tacosnape
08-20-2007, 01:47 PM
Anyway, here's what I have to say on this thingy.

1. You need the Breeding Pool or the basic Forest. A fetchland won't do. Extirpate has made it too risky to simply run Tropical Island, as if you lose all your Tropicals and don't have backup, you can't cast your threats. Breeding Pool is the correct call, I think. 4 Stifles makes Wasteland significantly less intimidating. It's fetchable off Deltas and Strands, and produces blue, like you need as many lands as possible to do. Especially when you're running Daze.

2. I think the only terribly feasible options for that third threat slot are Werebear, Quirion Dryad, Control Magic, Plaxcaster Frogling, and Troll Ascetic. Here's the problems with all of them.

Werebear - :1::g: for a 4/4 rocks, but it opens your deck up significantly to graveyard hate, which will be more rampant than ever with Kid Ichorid and Cephalid Breffix on the rise. Also, unlike previous Threshold decks, you get almost no benefit whatsoever from the mana part (Until you board in Krosan Grip, anyway.)

Quirion Dryad - Amazing when it works, but it suffers from the usual problems: Dying to everything that kills Lackey, and being a shitty midgame topdeck whereas Werebear is an awesome midgame topdeck.

Control Magic - Costs four, and completely sucks if your opponent isn't playing creatures. In a Threshold mirror, however, it's a godsend.

Plaxcaster Frogling - 3 for a 3/3 that can make itself untargetable, pitch to Force, and let you dominate a Tarmogoyf stalemate as long as the Frogling came down first (6/7 Goyf that can go untargetable >> 5/6 Goyf that can't.) 3 Mana makes it curve out fairly well. Also gives you a threat that gets around Chalice. Its only real downside is that it's less overwhelmingly amazing at its best than the others.

Troll Ascetic - Incredible, untargetable, and regenerates through those obnoxious Pernicious Deeds. Double Green can be a pain in the ass though, and Troll won't help you if you're bogged in a creature stalemate.

Personally, I would consider trying the Frog. He's pretty solid on his own, isn't hard to cast, pitches to Force, helps your untargetable theme with Mongoose, and can turn Tarmogoyf even scarier.

If I had to order them, though, for maindeck purposes, I'd go: Frog, Bear, Dryad/Troll or Troll/Dryad, Control Magic.

EDIT: Thinking on it some more, I think I would go with 2 Werebears and 2 Froglings. We never care about seeing Mongoose or Tarmogoyf in multiples, but seeing our third threat in 2-3 of too early might be a pain. However, if you see 1 Bear and 1 Frog, they at least curve out a little better.

Lukas Preuss
08-20-2007, 02:02 PM
Since Tarmogoyf is the creature you will most likely try to take over via Control Magic, you should try Threads of Disloyality. It can also target other staples like Dark Confidant, Meddling Mage, Nantuko Shade, Werebear, Wild Mongrel, etc. and costs one less mana.

zulander
08-20-2007, 02:02 PM
You can try Serendib Efreet if you need more creatures.
QFT I was about to suggest this guy. He flies and has a big butt to boot, as not much things can kill an x/4.

Goaswerfraiejen
08-20-2007, 04:38 PM
You know, the other option would be to cut the extra beater and Control Magic/Threads of Disloyalty altogether, and simply to use Gilded Drake instead (which was always good, but is a whole lot better now that everyone is running Tarmogoyf). It would free up some slots, too, which is always good.

SuckerPunch
08-20-2007, 05:08 PM
I was under the impression that Phan made the deck and that Olszewski picked it up right before the tourney.

Oops, didn't know that. I guess a big congrats to Phan as well.

Why are people worried about Extripate? The situation of them killing a Tropical Island, and then Extripating it is very rare.
The real concern is a Crucible + Wasteland lock, or Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon. Even Price of Progress is a huge problem when you're so dependent on nonbasics. These situations are a hell of a lot more common and Breeding Pit doesn't do anything about them. Running a single basic forest on the otherhand gives you an out against both Extripate and all these other strategies as well. So it makes no sense to run Breeding Pit to dodge Extripate. The last card should be a Forest if you're concerned about nonbasic hate. And it should be a fetchland if you're not. But I think a basic forest is the best call.

Werebear is already a 4 of. And the guy absolutely belongs imo. I can't believe anyone would want to cut him.

What I was suggesting was finding one last threat so that your threat count goes up to atleast 14, rather than just 12.

If you want to make the two slots a finisher like Mystic Enforcer, I think Iwamori of Open Fist is comparable to Enforcer.

But Frogling and Serendib Efreet are both fantastic suggestions. Troll Ascetic is awesome too except that double green can be difficult at times.

As for Control Magic, I don't think the card should be maindecked because of storm combo. But it's absolutely screaming to be in the sideboard.

Threads of Disloyalty is a very suitable alternative to it as well.

In my personal opinion, paying the extra mana for the versatility that Control Magic offers over Threads of Disloyalty is well worth it.

You couldn't side in Threads of Disloyalty versus Fairie Stompy for example. What are you going to steal with it, Cloud of Fairies?

Control Magic can steal Mystic Enforcers, Exalted Angels, and Hypnotic Specters and Phyrexian Negators from sui black decks. Can you imagine how broken stealing Hypnotic Specter would be in this deck? I think that added versatility is worth the one extra mana. But who knows.

kabal
08-20-2007, 06:50 PM
Anyway, here's what I have to say on this thingy.

Plaxcaster Frogling - 3 for a 3/3 that can make itself untargetable, pitch to Force, and let you dominate a Tarmogoyf stalemate as long as the Frogling came down first (6/7 Goyf that can go untargetable >> 5/6 Goyf that can't.) 3 Mana makes it curve out fairly well. Also gives you a threat that gets around Chalice. Its only real downside is that it's less overwhelmingly amazing at its best than the others.

Personally, I would consider trying the Frog. He's pretty solid on his own, isn't hard to cast, pitches to Force, helps your untargetable theme with Mongoose, and can turn Tarmogoyf even scarier.

Plus, you can move the counters to Mongoose if need be.

Tacosnape
08-20-2007, 06:58 PM
You know, the other option would be to cut the extra beater and Control Magic/Threads of Disloyalty altogether, and simply to use Gilded Drake instead (which was always good, but is a whole lot better now that everyone is running Tarmogoyf). It would free up some slots, too, which is always good.

The problem with Gilded Drake is that UG Threshold suffers on occasion from facebeater stalemates, and Gilded Drake gives your opponent an edge in having a 3/3 flyer. This is seldom a great move when you're stealing non-goyf creatures like Shade, Confidant, Lackey, or other annoying rogue guys like Spectral Lynx or something. Threads of Disloyalty seems like the better option here.


Plus, you can move the counters to Mongoose if need be.

Er, holy shit. You're totally right. I didn't realize Graft didn't target.


Why are people worried about Extripate? The situation of them killing a Tropical Island, and then Extripating it is very rare.

But it's game if it happens and you don't have either a Breeding Pool or a Forest. And your countermagic wall can't stop Extirpate.



In my personal opinion, paying the extra mana for the versatility that Control Magic offers over Threads of Disloyalty is well worth it.

You couldn't side in Threads of Disloyalty versus Fairie Stompy for example. What are you going to steal with it, Cloud of Fairies?

Control Magic can steal Mystic Enforcers, Exalted Angels, and Hypnotic Specters and Phyrexian Negators from sui black decks. Can you imagine how broken stealing Hypnotic Specter would be in this deck? I think that added versatility is worth the one extra mana. But who knows.

I think one other thing that Control Magic has going for it over Threads is that you're going to be countering a lot of 2CC guys with Spell Snare, whereas you don't have that option for the 3CC guys.

URABAHN
08-20-2007, 07:09 PM
It's probably not actually good, but yes, it's better. Wasteland and Stifle allow you to play very RDWesque beatdown role in the match-up, trying to deny them the chance to actually get to cast their big spells. 12 creatures means that they won't have enough cheap removal to keep your back. And the fact that all the creatures are big enough means that your opponent is on a relevant clock even with one creature in play.

After playing against Lam Phan's U/G/r Thresh build in the tournament, I'd have to agree. Wasteland and Stifle are tempo to the max and can put Landstill so far back that they can't catch up to a couple of Thresh dudes. Stifle can also stop Landstill removal like Deed and EE.

Brushwagg
08-20-2007, 09:44 PM
@Creature Control: I'm surprised no one said Vedalken Shackles. Since pretty much every land you drop is going to be an Island, you should be able to take over whatever creature you want, with the normal exceptions. Not to mention it stays around where as Control Magic goes away when the creature dies.

Also I'm giving this deck a try and so far it's going good. I really want to test the Goblins and Landstill matches. I feel that Goblins is going to be really in their favor. But I'm basing this off my expierences with U/G Madness. So we will see. As far as Landstill goes I think it might be better then the ones 3 color has, because they really can't cut you off from a color. By no means I'm saying is going to be a walk in the park but better.

Tacosnape
08-20-2007, 11:38 PM
This is probably the jankiest thing I've ever suggested, but how bad would Flood be in this deck? It seems like you'd be able to tap down 2 creatures on average, letting your 'Goyf pound through, and in a desperate situation you could tap down two EOT and two during your main step to get a lethal swing through.

...Yeah, I bet half of you had to look that one up.:tongue:

Jak
08-20-2007, 11:56 PM
Lol, did then read the last pary of your post. But if you really want removal, I have always loved playing Pongify and EE together.

BoardinCharlie
08-22-2007, 08:21 AM
I have currentlly been testing out Taco Snapes opinions of the Plax caster. As it may seem that its mana intensive, in the thresh match up I have found that they need to be killed ASAP. In the mirror if you can make your goyf 1 point bigger its pretty much gg...then on top of that if it can become untargetable thats just ridiculous. I am currently running 2 in my build, not sure if its the right number, but what suprise when you drop it. I used to run dryad in my build, but this guy is showing a little bit more positive, granted they both have to be killed right away before they get to big. But dryad just gets big, plaxcaster is already a decent size and makes your other guys bigger and untargetable :).

Another question for thought would be a mix between dryad and plaxcaster maybe. Making the dryad untargetable is pretty hot I would think?

cheddercaveman
08-23-2007, 12:28 PM
This is probably the jankiest thing I've ever suggested, but how bad would Flood be in this deck? It seems like you'd be able to tap down 2 creatures on average, letting your 'Goyf pound through, and in a desperate situation you could tap down two EOT and two during your main step to get a lethal swing through.

...Yeah, I bet half of you had to look that one up.:tongue:

Actually, that seems like it wouldnt be a terrible card, against other aggro it would definitely give you an edge. Can be played on turn 1 before the majority of counters would hit. Few people actually maindeck enchantment removal either.

Anyone consider something like exhaustion against other aggro? It'd work great with flood in any case, but when correctly timed its almost a timewalk. Just another thought.

PS - yes, I definitely had to look it up.

Happy Gilmore
08-23-2007, 12:38 PM
I've been thinking about it for the last week, and I got some quick testing and goldfishing in yesterday.

-1 Snapback
-1 Rushing River
+2 Jitte

This has been working out real well for me.

I also want to test
-4 Spell Snare
+1 Sensei's diving top
+2 Serum Visions
+1 Island (helps alot actually)

As a UG Madness player from way back as well as a Thresh player, this deck apeals to me.

sammiel
08-23-2007, 01:33 PM
dropping the spell snares seems to be a metagame call, this deck was designed to win the thresh mirror, and spell snares are a large part of that. I wouldn't drop them unless there isn't much thresh in your area.

goobafish
08-23-2007, 01:37 PM
Not to mention how much they help against TES, Belcher, Iggy, Fish, Anything with Confidant and almost any other matchup except goblins.

cheddercaveman
08-23-2007, 03:01 PM
Even against goblins they counter piledriver if your on the draw, its a solid hard counter.

Jitte does seem like a good call for removal too, its a bit on the expensive side when you figure it actually costs 4 mana to get moving, but once its online you pretty much just win.

However, Jitte being popular in this deck is yet another argument for Spell Snare.

SuckerPunch
08-23-2007, 08:53 PM
You know what card I really think belongs in this deck?

Crucible of Worlds. At worst, it fills another two artifact slots to feed Goyf.

But the power of a wasteland lock is just way too powerful. You can keep them mana screwed while you cast and attack with undercosted beef.

It can even filter out extra lands from the deck so each brainstorm midgame draws you more business spells.

Goaswerfraiejen
08-24-2007, 12:39 AM
You know what card I really think belongs in this deck?

Crucible of Worlds. At worst, it fills another two artifact slots to feed Goyf.

But the power of a wasteland lock is just way too powerful. You can keep them mana screwed while you cast and attack with undercosted beef.

It can even filter out extra lands from the deck so each brainstorm midgame draws you more business spells.

Seems to me that Life from the Loam would be even better, since it would power up Mongrel and company while tutoring three at a time for Wonder/Genesis/etc.

SuckerPunch
08-24-2007, 04:00 AM
You got the wrong thread there bud. :wink:

You're looking for UG Madness which is about two threads down below this one.

Here, the deck doesn't have as much spare mana, and when it does, it's better off using it to play cantrips. So I would guess that Crucible would be better than Loam here.

Maveric78f
08-24-2007, 05:10 AM
I like having random threats in such cantripfull decks. I would play at least 1*counterbalance and 1*crucible. Maybe also 1*threads of disloyalty or 1*vedalken shackles.

I'd love also to play this deck with less cantrips but more stifles (i.e. trickbinds) and play phyrexian dreadnought instead of werebear. If so, I would also try 1*greater good in random slot.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
08-24-2007, 06:12 AM
I really wish random ass low-level pros who never play Legacy would stop winning our major tournaments and talking at length about how they didn't practice the format at all or put any testing into their deck or know what they were doing before they accidentally won the fucking thing. It just makes us seem so completely fucking incidental.

I played against a build that was almost identical to the winning list a few months ago on MWS, except it ran Piracy Charm. I was slightly annoyed because I kept losing to the fucking thing with all these different top tier decks. But at the risk of sounding like Anusien, it just felt like I should have won a lot of those test games; there were plenty of times where I just failed to draw anything for a couple of turns, or he just opened up with double Wasteland and drew double Daze and I couldn't draw another land for infinite turns. I don't know. With lots of decks I understand why it's good, but this deck just reminds me Gamekeeper from last year; I'm not trying to say that the person just lucksacked their way to the win, or that the deck must intrinsically suck, I just fail to see why it's good.

Although I appreciate the irony of GenCon being won by a U/G Aggro-Control deck packing the Wasteland/Stifle/Daze combo two years in a row.

goobafish
08-24-2007, 05:02 PM
I really wish random ass low-level pros who never play Legacy would stop winning our major tournaments and talking at length about how they didn't practice the format at all or put any testing into their deck or know what they were doing before they accidentally won the fucking thing. It just makes us seem so completely fucking incidental.

I don't think I fully understand this. Are you saying that it is bad that players who play other formats are winning in legacy and not testing, because it makes all your and others work on the format seem incidental? Well that is just a fact, if he won without testing and practicing, that is amazing for him. You shouldn't be upset with him that a legacy player/theorist did not win, it clearly isnt his fault. All he said was the truth, it was not a mockery of the format or the innovators in it.

Also he didn't talk at length about it. He was asked a question, and simply answered it.

rureddy31
08-24-2007, 05:44 PM
Alright, I don't understand what you are made about. The fact that Peter suceeded, and even myself for that matter, with such little preparation is a testament to playskill. Whereas preparation is important, it isn't exactly necessary. Simply put, there is nothing wrong with great players doing well, in any format, without preparation. If you don't want people to win without preparation, then step up yourself. If a good player works hard, they will be rewarded. Great players rely on playskill.

Goaswerfraiejen
08-24-2007, 05:44 PM
I don't think I fully understand this. Are you saying that it is bad that players who play other formats are winning in legacy and not testing, because it makes all your and others work on the format seem incidental? Well that is just a fact, if he won without testing and practicing, that is amazing for him. You shouldn't be upset with him that a legacy player/theorist did not win, it clearly isnt his fault. All he said was the truth, it was not a mockery of the format or the innovators in it.

Also he didn't talk at length about it. He was asked a question, and simply answered it.

I think that what TIBA (if I may abbreviate his handle like that) means is that it creates the impression that Legacy is an "easy" format requiring no preparation to compete in successfully; it misrepresents Legacy as a straightforward format that lacks depth. It's also pretty arrogant, if it's true (which, in many cases, I doubt; thus making it an even more arrogant comment). Really, it just reflects poorly on a format if doing well requires "no preparation", if you can just pick up a deck and play it to victory.

Now, if only there was any Legacy action near me... I'd show them all! :wink:

Machinus
08-24-2007, 05:53 PM
To all players who performed well at the championship - congratulations on your success. You played well, and you don't have to defend that.

Legacy is still an open and sometimes random format, which makes tournament results less meaningful than we want them to be. That can be frustrating, but it's still the world championship. Don't take the complaints too seriously.

goobafish
08-24-2007, 05:56 PM
I think that what TIBA (if I may abbreviate his handle like that) means is that it creates the impression that Legacy is an "easy" format requiring no preparation to compete in successfully; it misrepresents Legacy as a straightforward format that lacks depth. It's also pretty arrogant, if it's true (which, in many cases, I doubt; thus making it an even more arrogant comment). Really, it just reflects poorly on a format if doing well requires "no preparation", if you can just pick up a deck and play it to victory.

Now, if only there was any Legacy action near me... I'd show them all! :wink:

Well firsthand I can tell you that it is true, we handed him the deck at the prelims and he had never used or discussed it before. If it was a mockery, or a falsehood, then yes, I can see how it can be upsetting, but that is not the case in this situation.



To all players who performed well at the championship - congratulations on your success. You played well, and you don't have to defend that.

Legacy is still an open and sometimes random format, which makes tournament results less meaningful than we want them to be. That can be frustrating, but it's still the world championship. Don't take the complaints too seriously.

Thanks Chris. I really liked hearing your insight into the Legacy community at gencon, as it affirmed many of my suspicions and beliefs.

SuckerPunch
08-24-2007, 09:36 PM
You guys put together a great deck.

I don't think there is any reason for anyone to be upset that a good skilled player won with a good deck just because he hadn't practiced it.

If the build was janky, then it might suggest that the format is janky and random. But the deck is very good.

The deck takes the best elements of threshold, and adds in the best disruption in the format (Wasteland + Stifle). Just because it's something that many people haven't seen before doesnt' make it a bad deck.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
08-25-2007, 12:46 AM
I don't think I fully understand this. Are you saying that it is bad that players who play other formats are winning in legacy and not testing, because it makes all your and others work on the format seem incidental? Well that is just a fact, if he won without testing and practicing, that is amazing for him. You shouldn't be upset with him that a legacy player/theorist did not win, it clearly isnt his fault. All he said was the truth, it was not a mockery of the format or the innovators in it.

It's not an issue of my blaming him; it's an issue of my wishing the people who win a major legacy tournament looked like they had worked for it. I didn't mind that Chris Pikula almost won Columbus, even though he's not a regular Legacy player, because

1) Clearly amazing. Not "good", not even just "great", he's an amazing player. It says less about the skill level of a format when someone who happens to be a God of the game wins without testing, even though....

2) He did in fact test a good bit.

I didn't say it wasn't fact that someone who isn't clearly acknowledged as being amongst the best to ever play the game and who hadn't practiced for the tournament won. I'm just annoyed that it is fact, and that this isn't the first time it's happened. I'm not blaming the winner for winnining, I'm annoyed at the circumstances that make Legacy seem less skill intensive, as if any competent player can waltz in and casually destroy the format, which is clearly scrub central.

And it's really more the fact that it's happened repeatedly that annoys me. Again, not annoyed at the winners in particular, but in the impression it might give outsiders about the format.

Bane of the Living
08-25-2007, 02:16 PM
Legacy is an unforgiving format. If you fetch the wrong land, dont mulligan, dont waste the right land, ect you can lose the game. Ive seen tons of games lost to Brainstorming incorrectly or Survivaling for the wrong creature.

Legacy rewards the best players. The field is always random and hard for mediocre to good players to metagame for. Thus the player that can 'in game undermine' the opponent is usually favored. This is why alot of the best players gravitate to Landstill and why all the best players played Flash or in Standards case Affinity.

It might paint an ugly picture but all of the Legacy community that would know or care who's winning understand.

Like mentioned the deck looks very solid and won first out of 4 threshy style decks since it was prepared for the mirror. Congrats to those who won with and worked on the list.

I think Counterbalance Top combo is screaming to be thrown in. I honestly dont get how it's use is determined by preference. Its only really bad against Stax and Goblins. Stax isnt seen in high volume and Goblins are beginning a slow decline now that they have a worse Thresh matchup and a bad Ceph B matchup.

C-Aleric
08-25-2007, 03:08 PM
I was under the impression that Phan made the deck and that Olszewski picked it up right before the tourney.

QFT. Phan had been working on the list for a long while before it was played at that tourney. Lots of time was spent getting this tweaked for the meta, and god damn a good job was done of it. I've been fooling around online with this deck, and all I ever think about is how overpowered it seems.

CounterTop is a sideboard bomb. Love this list.

Brushwagg
08-25-2007, 10:13 PM
Well I ended up running this list today. Lost in the top 8. 18 people, 3x Landstill, 1x CRET Belcher, 2x Beakfast, 2x U/G Thresh, and other pet decks. Top 8 Finish.

For reference the list I ran:

// Lands
4x Polluted Delta
1x Forest (3)
2x Windswept Heath
2x Island (3)
4x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland

// Creatures
4x Nimble Mongoose
2x Werebear
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Plaxcaster Frogling

// Spells
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Spell Snare
3x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Pongify
4x Stifle
4x Predict
4x Brainstorm
4x Serum Visions

// Sideboard
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Spell Snare
3x Krosan Grip
2x Hail Storm
2x Vedalken Shackles
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Pithing Needle
2x Umezawa's Jitte

Some notes from the Tourney and testing.

@Landstill Match: Still a very hard match-up, but it is alot better then the 3 color match-up is. It's very hard for them to cut you off a color and not to mention you can attack there mana base. In testing and the tourney I was able to to ride a 1st or 2nd turn Goose the whole way. Another key for this match-up is to keep Standstill off the table. Which is very doable.

@Pongify: At first I loved the idea behind it. It was blue removal, and so what about the 3/3 just block it. Turns out it was kinda meh for me. But then again in an aggro meta it might be nuts. But over all I wasn't happy with it at all.

@Basic Forest: Very huge. I would've been cut off from green if I had not been running this. ! is all that is needed since all threats just take G in the casting cost.

@Plaxcaster: Not sure on this guy. It must be some good because he draws a tone of hate as soon he hits the table. Not sure on this one yet.

@Regular Counterspells:This might be a meta call, but there have been a few times that I wanted regular counter spell. Late game Daze just doesn't cut it and some games could've been changed with regular CS.

thefreakaccident
08-25-2007, 11:57 PM
I finally got around to test this varient of thresh just yesterday.

things I found out.

1.) the goblins MU is much weaker then UGR, but about the same as UGW.

2.) the control MU is way better, as well as the aggro-control MU (spell snare is a bitch).

3.) the combo MU is still great.... the fact that this version runs 8 fatties (4 tarmos and 4 bears) makes this much stronger than the other color splashes IMO.

I still prefer 4c myself, but I would hate to see this at the tourney... the 'mirror'.

I like the fact that the deck can be played in such a variety of ways.
UG, UGR, UGW, UGB, UGBR, UGBW, UGWR... 7 color varietions that are all competative; that's just silly if you ask me. I have seen them all, except for a 5 color build... which I don't think will ever happen.

MattH
08-26-2007, 12:02 PM
And it's really more the fact that it's happened repeatedly that annoys me. Again, not annoyed at the winners in particular, but in the impression it might give outsiders about the format.
Also, what impression does it give the INSIDERS about the format? I mean, do you feel like this is a janky format? I don't really.

Brushwagg
08-26-2007, 12:19 PM
1.) the goblins MU is much weaker then UGR, but about the same as UGW.

I haven't got to testing this MU yet, but I think I have to agree with you here. I'm pretty sure that you need to keep the Stifles for the Ringleaders and Matons. Keeping them off extra cards and finding the one they need seems to be the best way to beat them.


the control MU is way better, as well as the aggro-control MU (spell snare is a bitch).

As I said before it has better game aganist Landstill then 3 or 4 color. I've done alot of testing aganist Landstill and it is better but by no means a walk in the park. I've found the best way to beat Landstill is:

1. Keep Standstill off the table. Spell Snare is great at this. Not letting them draw extra cards is a real key to this match-up. As far as FoF goes make them fight for it if you can, but don't waste a ton of counters on it.

2. Make them 1 for 1 your threats. Having them waste a WOG on a Goose while you have extra threats in hand is alright. An early Goose can go the distance.

Whit3 Ghost
08-26-2007, 02:23 PM
2. Make them 1 for 1 your threats. Having them waste a WOG on a Goose while you have extra threats in hand is alright. An early Goose can go the distance.
The other thing is that Goyf smashes through almost any possible Manland Wall, which used to be a huge thorn in our side.

Also, if your playing against a version of Landstill running Cunning Wish, watch out for Exterpate, because losing your threats or being cut off of a color. can be backbreakings.

Brushwagg
08-26-2007, 09:15 PM
Also, if your playing against a version of Landstill running Cunning Wish, watch out for Exterpate, because losing your threats or being cut off of a color. can be backbreakings.

Yes it mainly the version that Geoff plays (he won the last Kadi tourney). But as far as Extirpate goes yes it can be a problem, but I found that if you can keep pressure on them going to find Extirpate is the least of there worries.

@Goyf: He keeps going on the farm. I try not to waste to much Counters on saving the critters. Unless I'm low on threats or they are with in killing distance. Your asking for trouble if you waste to much trying to save a creature that you can just find another one of. Just my thoughts on it.

thefreakaccident
09-06-2007, 08:25 PM
Nought Goyf

lands//18
4 tropical island
4 wasteland
3 flooded strand
3 wooded foothills
2 breeding pool
1 island
1 forest

creatures//15
4 tarmogoyf
4 nimble mongoose
4 trinket mage
3 phyrexian dreadnought

other stuff//27
4 force of will
3 daze
3 counterbalance
3 sensei's divining top
4 stifle
2 trickbind
4 serum visions
4 brainstorm

not sure what the sideboard would look like.

Citrus-God
09-07-2007, 02:41 AM
Gawd that deck looks soo sexy.

Cut 2 Dreadnaughts. It's better to fetch them with Trinket Mages, otherwise they'd be dead. That leaves two slots:

+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Bone Splitter/Pithing Needle

Bone Splitter is soo sexy, makes Goyf wars look like a joke.

Goaswerfraiejen
09-07-2007, 08:32 AM
There's also O-Naginata, which would give the 'Goyfs trample. I agree, though, that you only really want Colossus through Trinket Mage. And also that you need more Mage targets. EE is a must, certainly, as is Pithing Needle. Seat of the Synod/Tree of Tales are also possibilities. Hell, you could even fetch a Meekstone, although it would screw you just as much as anyone else.

diffy
09-07-2007, 08:52 AM
Gawd that deck looks soo sexy.


I agree... Here're some of my thoughts

How 'bout just going:
-2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
+2 Vedalken Shackles

Shackles is something widely played in the NQGr lists in Germany and it would fill the hole that this deck has: it lacks removal.
Also, Vedalken Shackles suplements the cmc3 for your Counterbalance.

You could also cut down one Sensei's Divining Top I think as you have the possibility to go fetch them with Trinket Mage and because multiples are redundant.
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
+1 Daze

You'll always want to have that Daze in the Early to Mid game and afterwards you can just scry it away.

Also, to optimize your Sensei's Divining Top // Counterbalance Engine you should try playing more fetches.
-2 Breeding Pool
-1 Flooded Strand
+2 Polluted Delta
+1 Island
-1 Wooded Foothills
+1 Windswepth Heath

It's not like you'll fear getting your Flooded Strands Needled and Polluted Delta->go is more likely to not put your Opponnent into you playing Aggro Control. Also, I like the 2nd Island because being able to cast everything of basics is helpfull against stuff like Goblins (they arn't dead yet!) and Randomness like Back to Basics or Blood Moon...

Also, I'm sure that Portent is superior to Serum Visions in this particular build because there's nothing like manipulating the top3 cards of your opponent when you've got a 12/12 beater on the table.

-4 Serum Visions
+4 Portent



not sure what the sideboard would look like.


In the Sideboard you'd definetely want to have the 4th Counterbalance, 2 to 3 Krosan Grips and some assortement of Engineered Explosives, Tormod's Crypts, Pithing Needles...

As a start I'd suggest this:

1 Counterbalance
2 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Explosives (Against Counterslives, Empty the Warrens, Zombies)
2 Tormod's Crypt (Trinket Mage target, probably to few)
3 Winter Orb (Landstill, Board Control)
4 Hydroblast (I expect Goblins to be a bad Matchup)

So after all changes, the list might probably look like this:



Gro ain't Naughty v0.1

Mainboard (60 cards)

4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswepth Heath
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Trinket Mage
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Portent
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
2 Vedalken Shackles

Sideboard (15 cards)
1 Counterbalance
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Winter Orb
4 Hydroblast




And also that you need more Mage targets.


I strongly disagree with putting in a more or less large toolbox as nearly always your Trinket Mage will fetch a Phyrexian Dreadnought (if you have a Stifle) or a Sensei's Divining Top (if you have shuffle effects / Counterbalance). Those being the two targets you'll always get first, you don't really need more because you don't want to draw your one offs at inoportune times and because it's quite unlikely that you'll hit more than 2 Trinket Mages.

cheddercaveman
09-07-2007, 09:25 AM
To me with so few things to trinket out, the trinket mage is pointless. You'd be farther ahead dropping the 4 mages and the dreadnought and adding in one more top and 4 werebears. More consistantly getting damage in there. More consistantly drawing your countertop. Psionic Blast wouldnt be a terrible idea either, its removal, and good at closing that last gap of damage a little quicker.

dicemanx
09-07-2007, 11:45 AM
I didn't say it wasn't fact that someone who isn't clearly acknowledged as being amongst the best to ever play the game and who hadn't practiced for the tournament won. I'm just annoyed that it is fact, and that this isn't the first time it's happened. I'm not blaming the winner for winnining, I'm annoyed at the circumstances that make Legacy seem less skill intensive, as if any competent player can waltz in and casually destroy the format, which is clearly scrub central.

And it's really more the fact that it's happened repeatedly that annoys me. Again, not annoyed at the winners in particular, but in the impression it might give outsiders about the format.

I don't think that the victory should give a bad impression of the format. I might not have practiced for the Legacy event specifically, but the deck I piloted was created by a strong player (Pham) that already did heavy testing and built a very strong (IMO) version of Threshhold. Furthermore, skills developed playing one format (especially one as unforgiving as vintage) are readily transferable, so it shouldn't be too devastating to have seasoned vintage players win the Legacy Champs in back to back years. In other words, I felt that I was hardly at a disadvantage versus other Legacy players at the event, and my lack of full knowledge of the format could be offset by the opportunity to outplay my opponents.

As I mentioned in another thread, each match was a challenge that came down to subtle plays that decided games. The deck had just enough resources to give me a fair chance to win against every deck that I faced; I can't say if Rushing River and Snapback were optimal, or that the Breeding Pool was a better choice than a Forest, but they sure came in handy in a number of matches where other cards like EE just wouldn't do. I think folks here might be adhering a little too tightly to removal; lack of removal didn't seem too critical against all of the Goyf-Threshhold mirrors or the Goblin decks that I faced, and the Goblins match-up is hardly as bad as some make it seem. I also liked the idea of Hailstorm out of the SB against Goblins, although it might have been better supported with two additional lands (2 Forest, or 1 Forest and 1 Island) in the SB to go with it. There was room in the SB for such measures since against most matches I just brought in the Counterbalance + Top combo (which is immensely powerful in almost every match-up that matters); the rest of the SB seemed largely inconsequential.

I'll leave it up to the rest of you to debate the merits of UG Threshhold versus UGr or UGw; I'll offer that UG seems to be quite solid in the mirror based on Wasteland, Stifle, and Spell Snare main, and given that Threshhold can count itself as a top tier archetype, that's saying a lot. I'll also contend that creature removal isn't as critical as it might seem against aggressive archetypes or in the mirror.

thefreakaccident
09-07-2007, 03:59 PM
Gawd that deck looks soo sexy.

Cut 2 Dreadnaughts. It's better to fetch them with Trinket Mages, otherwise they'd be dead. That leaves two slots:

+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Bone Splitter/Pithing Needle

Bone Splitter is soo sexy, makes Goyf wars look like a joke.



Thanks for the advice, I haven't gotten a chance to test it much though :(.

I think that fetching a nought to dwarf a goyf is slightly better than the bonesplitte though.

I will add the EE though!

Citrus-God
09-07-2007, 11:25 PM
Thanks for the advice, I haven't gotten a chance to test it much though :(.

I think that fetching a nought to dwarf a goyf is slightly better than the bonesplitte though.

I will add the EE though!

I guess EE can work too. Being able to dismantle SoFI is awesome.

georgjorge
09-10-2007, 09:04 AM
I think playing Counterbalance + Naught, or Counterbalance + Stifles, doesn't work too well. The former suffers from a lack of 2cc-cards, making the Balance weaker (it loses Predicts and Werebears from the original UGr or UGw lists). The latter suffers from the fact that you want to drop Balance on turn two or three ideally, tapping out, while the cantrip base on the contrary is designed specifically to keep mana open for Stifles and Snares (the same is true for Trinket Mage).

I think, however, that the UG Stifle-Waste shell can incorporate the Naught combo pretty well. I also think that Loam should be used here (which also allows to run Intuition in the board, getting Loam + Waste + cycling land, or even Tabernacle + Loam + Maze against Aggro, or Loam + Academy Ruins + Crypt against Ichorid or Cephalid Breakfast, although I don't know if those plays would actually be fast enough to matter). My deck so far is...

8 Fetches
4 Tropicals
4 Wasteland
3 Island

4 Goyf
4 Mongeese
3 Naught

4 Force
4 Daze
4 Snare
4 Stifle
2 Life from the Loam
1 Trickbind

4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
3 Mental Note

and I think it does pretty well in a meta where due to the rise of Thresh, Landstill and other control is also rising, since it can not only Stifle or Waste some mana and then drop big creatures (Goyf and Naught) to beat down, but can also play the long game, Wasting every dual land of the opponent with Loam, or Intuition out of the board.

dicemanx
09-10-2007, 11:30 AM
I'm not sure that I understand the logic of the Dreadnaught combo. Threshhold has no tutoring, and Stifle is ideally used as an early game mana denial card. Are you going to save your Stifle instead of using it on a 1st turn fetchland, all in the hope of resolving a Dreadnaught later? Doesn't sound like a winning plan. It's also unfortunate that one piece of the combo is otherwise utterly useless without the other part. I think if your intent is to try to win quickly off a combo like Naught-Stifle, or if you want to punch through the potential Tarmogoyf stalemates, you might as well go with equipment - Jitte is likely best, but only if Werebears are put back into the deck (to provide for alternate Jitte targets).

I do like the idea of Loam though for Wasteland recursion though.

georgjorge
09-10-2007, 04:05 PM
Well, the Naught is there because the land denial plan doesn't always work out - you go second, or only have Stifles while your opponent lays duals. If your opponent obviously has more than enough mana, your Stifles will be pretty useless. Of course, it's not sure that the opportunity to trade them for a 12/12 makes up for the otherwise dead Naught in your hand, but I think with 4 Opt and 4 Brainstorm, you have some chance of avoiding or putting back dead cards...

Brushwagg
09-11-2007, 07:16 PM
WTF is with Dreadnaught? I think the whole think falls into the "Dangers of doing cool things". It would be different if you didn't need a another card to play the Naught or the Naught didn't die to every form of removal (minus terror and a single burn spell) and Artifact hate out there. Adding a 12/12 dead card isn't going to make it any stronger.

This is waht I've been testing with and given what the meta looked like this past weekend(Eli's) I probably could've done pretty well with it.

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [TSP] Forest (3)
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [TSP] Island (3)
3 [B] Tropical Island
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
2 [OD] Werebear
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

// Spells
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [OD] Predict
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [FD] Serum Visions
3 [DIS] Voidslime
2 [B] Winter Orb

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [AL] Hail Storm
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

@Voidslime:What I really wanted was a another hard counter and another Stifle for this deck. It's been doing alright in testing even though it's only really usable turn 3 or later. But it's pitchable to FOW and makes up for Dazes crappiness in the late game.

@Kira: Testing. Mainly there to help Goyf's not get killed without costing me alot of counters. Was Plax Caster but it ended up not being so great.

@Winter Orb:Another slot I'm testing. I'm thinking it will help with mana denial, but I need to test more.

thefreakaccident
09-11-2007, 08:51 PM
I think kira, voidslime, and orb are all in the "Danger of cool things" catagory, they all seem horrible to me... if only voidslime was just UG, then it would be good. Kira and voidslime have no place in the deck at all, not even just for shits and giggles.

etrigan
09-12-2007, 05:43 PM
It should be noted that Winter Orb was a part of Alan Comer's original Miracle-Gro lists. The symmetry is easily broken with your low mana curve, and it makes Daze all the better.

Brushwagg
09-12-2007, 09:42 PM
@Freak: I won't argue aboue about the VS or Kira, I'm testing them. But Winter Orb?? Seriously with mana denial already build into the deck, and the low mana curve of the deck already so why not? Can you reason this at all??

sammiel
09-12-2007, 09:57 PM
maybe SB, but even with the mana denial aspect, most of your important matchups dont care about winter orb, you could consider it SB against board control, but you'd be better off having more creatures or something.

those EE should almost certainly be MD also.

Brushwagg
09-13-2007, 09:02 PM
Well up until as of late Landstill seemed to be coming back (look at VAs last tourney) I also could expect to see 4-5 Landstill decks every week, but Breakfast sems to really showing up. So really I guess I have some slots to meta game with, plus the SB.

I did run EE's in the main but wasn't totally happy with them. I do bring them in the Belcher and TES match for the ETWs.

BeeblesofLife
09-13-2007, 10:59 PM
EE in the main is good but not all that great. It helps out with the warrens tokens and Zombie tokens(ichorid) and can even take out Goyf. The problem with it is that this deck only runs two colors so it can only take out 2 casters and below. With the amount of counters UG runs using EE in the main just seems silly. IF Combo is a huge problem in your meta run them main, If not though EE's place is in the SB.

FredMaster
09-15-2007, 04:43 PM
Here is my latest version. I didn't really had any good decks except Ichorid while testing on mws.
So I don't really know how competitive it is. I pwnd Ichorid tho ;)
Here comes the list:
//Manabase
4 Tropicals
4 Wasteland
8 U-Fetchies
2 Island

//Counter&Bounce
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
3 Repeal

//Draw&Stifle:cool:
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Stifle

//Creatures of Doom
4 Mungo
4 Goofy
4 Werebear
3 Plaxcaster Frogling


//Sideboard
3 Counterbalance
3 Top
3 Krosan Grip
3 EE
3 Threads of Disloyalty

I'd really like to see one or two Sea Drakes as !the! Finishers in the deck.
What I don't like about the Frogling is, that it slows you down and prevents you from dropping Goyfs... Sometimes that is not so kewl. He can be pitched into Force though, which I like.

Brushwagg
09-16-2007, 09:47 PM
I'd really like to see one or two Sea Drakes as !the! Finishers in the deck.

That's was Goyf does.

@Frogling: The counters are nice but I found it to be rather meh. The paying 2 mana to protect was ehh.

Other 2 questions for Fredmaster:

1. With out Predict or Mental note how hard is it for you to get Threshold? I know it's not to important because Goyf gets big fast, But Goose and Bear need it so the don't suck.

2. Repeal? Seems interesting. Have given any other bounce spells a try? It seems that Repeal would tie up too much mana. I know it draws a card and all, but Echoing Truth, Rushing River, Snap Back etc.. do the job for less mana (unless your bouncing a 1 drop). Seems like a iffy choice here.

FredMaster
09-17-2007, 12:33 PM
@ Finisher:
Just imagine there is a little Goyffight going on. At that point I don't look too good - Remember: I don't play removal.
A 4/3 Flying Clock is just amazing in that situation.
And if I wouldn't play the Frogs, it would be even harder.

@ Bounce:
I prefer the repeal because oftentimes i wanna bounce critters (in this meta definitely Goofies) that I haven't been able to counter.
Think about Echoing Truth in that case. I don't wanna bounce my own Goofies, don't you agree?
And Snapback isn't so good, in my opinion, because it needs something to pitch in. That doesn't support the ********-Plan at all. And it doesn't bounce anything apart from creatures.
Occasionally it might be useful to use this pitch, when your tapped out - but as I said: I prefer the Repeal.
Cantrips ftw :wink:

But I think I agree, when you said that I needed more Gro-Stuff.
I think I'll test those changes:
-3 Frog of Doom
+2 Sea Drake
+1 Mental Note

-4 Spell Snare Main
+3 Spell Snare Sb

-3 Threads of Disloyalty Sb
+3 Mental Note Main
+1 Repeal Main

I'll test that one out.

FredMaster
09-19-2007, 07:06 AM
Sorry for the Double post but I have tested a little bit and found out that the deck is really good against random decks and combo.
Only the Mirror worries me a little. Because of the lack of removal the Nqg w-Player oftentimes slays me with his swords.

Another question:
What do you think about the card "Submerge" ?
Good answer on goofies imo.

I'll test it in the Slot of repeal.

BTW: I play Predicts instead of the Mental Notes now.

//Edit:
Here is the list again with all changes:
//Lands 18
2 Island
8 Fetchies
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

//Critter 14
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Sea Drake

//Rest 28
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Predict

//Sideboard 15
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Repeal / Submerge?

Brushwagg
09-19-2007, 07:55 PM
I think you need maybe 2 more basics. Because Wasteland, Magus of the Moon etc.... can be a problem for you. Like +1 Island +1 Forest cutting 2 fetches. Just a suggestion.

DragoFireheart
09-20-2007, 10:26 PM
How about using the spell Snap?

Card type: Instant

Casting cost: 1U

Card text: Return target creature to owner's hand. Untap up to two lands.

kicks_422
09-21-2007, 10:04 AM
It only affects creatures, so that's a bad side of it. And with all the beef in your deck, you shouldn't be worrying about those.

Joon
09-21-2007, 10:12 AM
It only affects creatures, so that's a bad side of it. And with all the beef in your deck, you shouldn't be worrying about those.

Actually we/you don't have any removal in this deck. But if Spell Snap is better than Repeal - I don't know :tongue:

DragoFireheart
09-21-2007, 11:20 AM
It can prove useful against reanimator style decks or decks that try and cheat out a Ph.D out. It also lets you bounce Ichorids back to the players hand, which also slows them down.

kicks_422
09-21-2007, 11:41 AM
But will the untap two lands effect be useful? I don't think so since all the spells that you can play to take advantage of this are all 1-2cc anyway.

Why would you need removal when you can just punch through with Goyf and just bounce every troublesome permanent that you can't counter? UG Madness had a lot of success in these same colors, also without removal (even before Jitte came along), so I don't think a bounce spell only for creatures is needed.

DragoFireheart
09-21-2007, 12:02 PM
But will the untap two lands effect be useful? I don't think so since all the spells that you can play to take advantage of this are all 1-2cc anyway.

Why would you need removal when you can just punch through with Goyf and just bounce every troublesome permanent that you can't counter? UG Madness had a lot of success in these same colors, also without removal (even before Jitte came along), so I don't think a bounce spell only for creatures is needed.

But you don't know the super-secret tech of Snap!

You can attack with a Goyf or a Werebear into a swarm of creatures, kill a few of them and at the last moment cast Snap. After snap resolves you can replay the Goyf or Bear.

Brushwagg
09-21-2007, 05:00 PM
Snap is decent to a point. But don't forget that Snap Back and pitch a blue card if needed. The bounce I prefer is Echoing Truth myself. It deals with alot of stuff and even bounces multiples if they are in play (ETW token for an example). Also as it has already been brought up Snap, as well as Snap Back, only hits creatures and sometimes you really need an Artifact(Chalice, 3Sphere) off the table or an Enchantment (Leyline of the Void).

DragoFireheart
09-21-2007, 11:52 PM
Snap is decent to a point. But don't forget that Snap Back and pitch a blue card if needed. The bounce I prefer is Echoing Truth myself. It deals with alot of stuff and even bounces multiples if they are in play (ETW token for an example). Also as it has already been brought up Snap, as well as Snap Back, only hits creatures and sometimes you really need an Artifact(Chalice, 3Sphere) off the table or an Enchantment (Leyline of the Void).

In that case I would run Echoing Truth. Being able to hit tokens is great for fighting off Bridge from Below/ Empty the Warren tokens. It also lets you protect your Goyf in mirror matches and bounce their goyf in response. Bounce is almost as good as removal at times and is sometimes better.

How many would be a solid number? I'm tempted to run 4.

>>>Also, I have another question.<<<

Portent or Ponder? Is it still worth running Portent to mess with your oppoents Library?

FredMaster
09-22-2007, 05:51 AM
I think it is not too important to be able to mess around with your opponent's library. At least in 1 out of 50 cases.
The point why i'd play Ponder over Portent is that Ponder is a cantrip, which is so freaking awesome!!!
Being able to have an extra card during your can change games, for example if you need an extra critter to survive.

DragoFireheart
09-22-2007, 09:41 AM
I think it is not too important to be able to mess around with your opponent's library. At least in 1 out of 50 cases.
The point why i'd play Ponder over Portent is that Ponder is a cantrip, which is so freaking awesome!!!
Being able to have an extra card during your can change games, for example if you need an extra critter to survive.

What would you suggest I put in place of the Predict then, if anything?

Cait_Sith
09-22-2007, 09:48 AM
What would you suggest I put in place of the Predict then, if anything?

Predict is too good in Thresh to ignore because of the usage of Force of Will. Outside Combat Thresh cannot generate card advantage, so a few discard spells + Mass Removal can often equal game over. Predict gives you the chance at card advantage so you can keep trucking out your counterspells for much longer.

DragoFireheart
09-22-2007, 09:58 AM
Predict is too good in Thresh to ignore because of the usage of Force of Will. Outside Combat Thresh cannot generate card advantage, so a few discard spells + Mass Removal can often equal game over. Predict gives you the chance at card advantage so you can keep trucking out your counterspells for much longer.

How many is normally considered a good number? 3-4?

Also any opinions on main-decking Echoing Truth? It deals with tokens, so it acts like a pseudo EE. It also deals with other permanents like Chalice.

Cait_Sith
09-22-2007, 10:05 AM
I run 3 Predicts, alongside 4 Portent (I will exchange these for Ponder since it is a sorcery) and 4 Brainstorm, so I have very good library manipulation.

DragoFireheart
09-22-2007, 10:13 AM
I run 3 Predicts, alongside 4 Portent (I will exchange these for Ponder since it is a sorcery) and 4 Brainstorm, so I have very good library manipulation.

I guess 4 Predicts would be a bit too much. It's something you want to see but not in multiples of most of the time. It's normally how I build a deck:

4 set: I must see these every game.

3 set: I want to see these every game but only one of, two at most.

2 set: I want to see one of these every often but not too often.

1 set: Only want one of as having more than one in a starting hand can greatly slow me down.

This is how I normaly sort out my cards when making a deck.

---

So how about bounce Cait_Sith? Echoing Truth any good?

Cait_Sith
09-22-2007, 10:15 AM
The logic for running X rather fails with massive piles of Cantrips and Fetches because of how fast your library thins out.

Also, I like 1-2 md Truth since EE is much harder to play.

DragoFireheart
09-22-2007, 10:21 AM
The logic for running X rather fails with massive piles of Cantrips and Fetches because of how fast your library thins out.

Also, I like 1-2 md Truth since EE is much harder to play.

Even with all the cantrips it still holds true. If I run a 4-set I will see it a lot more often as opposed to a 2 or a 1 set of a card in the deck.

Cait_Sith
09-22-2007, 10:23 AM
The difference between 1 and 4 is large, but the difference between 3 and 4 is extremely small. Best to leave that any 4 of at three unless it MUST be at 4.

DragoFireheart
09-22-2007, 10:24 AM
The difference between 1 and 4 is large, but the difference between 3 and 4 is extremely small. Best to leave that any 4 of at three unless it MUST be at 4.

Exactly. 4 ofs I must see, while 3 of I want to see but not quite as badly.

Cait_Sith
09-22-2007, 10:28 AM
No. Not must, vs really want. A 4 of is something you must see in MULTIPLES. A three of is something you must see at least ONCE. (At least in deck with this much power to go through their library.)

DragoFireheart
09-22-2007, 10:29 AM
No. Not must, vs really want. A 4 of is something you must see in MULTIPLES. A three of is something you must see at least ONCE. (At least in deck with this much power to go through their library.)

Isn't that what I was trying to say?

Cait_Sith
09-22-2007, 10:30 AM
You put up "Want(3) vs Must(4)" The difference is "Must(3) vs Must/Must(4)." You are cutting cards that you must see once to make room for silver bullets. You still need to see them, but your cantripping engine covers up the lack of 4.

DragoFireheart
09-22-2007, 10:32 AM
You put up "Want vs Must" The difference is "Must/Must vs Must."

Oh I see: more emphasis on the must as opposed to want. I MUST see the 3 of but not too many of them.

1-2 set I want to see but it's not normally a must.

In any case that is how I feel as well when I sort out cards in my deck.

Brushwagg
09-22-2007, 04:14 PM
Here's my updated list:

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [TSP] Forest (3)
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [TSP] Island (3)
3 [B] Tropical Island
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [OD] Werebear
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [OD] Predict
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [FD] Serum Visions
2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
2 [DS] Echoing Truth

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

@Pithing Needle MD: Not sure about it. But in my meta there is a ton of Landstill and not having to worry about having Stifle for the EEs and Mishras etc..

@Predict:I really think you want them as a 4 of. This is the only way this deck gains card advantage. Having one countered or having to Pitch one leaves only 2. Which doesn't seem goodf IMO.

@Ponder: Yes the you draw right away off it, but I still think Porent is a better card, just for the fact of being able to see your opponets Library.

DragoFireheart
09-22-2007, 10:06 PM
Wait, you're running Serum Visions over Portent?

I hate Visions, it makes me draw cards I don't want.

Brainstorm>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ponder => Portent > Serum.

One small complaint about Spell Snare is that it sucks when I play against friends that run jank decks.

Brushwagg
09-23-2007, 10:32 AM
Personal preference. That is all I'm going to say. I'm not going to start the whole Portent vs. Serum Visions debate again. Last time that happened it lasted for a few months. So if you run Portent that's cool.


One small complaint about Spell Snare is that it sucks when I play against friends that run jank decks.

Is this for fun or in a tournament? The reason I ask is, because in tournament play I find Spell Snare to really good aganist almost anydeck I'm going to see, except Goblins. Yes there is still a few Goblin players left in the world.

DragoFireheart
09-23-2007, 11:45 AM
Personal preference. That is all I'm going to say. I'm not going to start the whole Portent vs. Serum Visions debate again. Last time that happened it lasted for a few months. So if you run Portent that's cool.

Fair enough. :smile:


Is this for fun or in a tournament? The reason I ask is, because in tournament play I find Spell Snare to really good aganist almost anydeck I'm going to see, except Goblins. Yes there is still a few Goblin players left in the world.

Well sometimes I play it just for fun, though it should be just fine in tournaments.

DragoFireheart
09-24-2007, 10:41 PM
Lignify
1G
Tribal Enchantment - Treefolk Aura
Enchant creature
Enchanted creature loses all abilities and becomes a 0/4 Treefolk.

Would it be possible for this new card to act as a sort of removal for U/G thresh? It also works well with Goyf in giving him +2/+2 in two card types that more than likely are difficult to get into the yard.

FredMaster
09-25-2007, 03:58 AM
But it's more important to increase only your Goyfs.
Because usually the opponent's Goyfs grow equal to yours.
And I think i'd play Pongify over Lignify. A 0/4 Treefolk is still too big for our Mongoose.

Maveric78f
09-25-2007, 04:04 AM
And you think that the pongify token (3/3) is not too big for your mongoose ?

Tacosnape
09-25-2007, 04:11 AM
They're both too big for the Mongoose. Blue-Green doesn't -have- any sort of all-purpose permanent creature removal, and neither Pongify or Lignify have done anything to change that.

I don't think you really need to look for a removal spell. Snare hits a lot of relevant creatures, Force and Daze hit more still, and you generally just run over the top of the rest.

If you want a removal spell, I think Psionic Blast and Threads of Disloyalty are your best options, period. Or maybe that new green spell that puts in two 1/1's that get Deathtouch if you win a Clash.

Ophidian
09-25-2007, 08:47 AM
They're both too big for the Mongoose. Blue-Green doesn't -have- any sort of all-purpose permanent creature removal, and neither Pongify or Lignify have done anything to change that.

I don't think you really need to look for a removal spell. Snare hits a lot of relevant creatures, Force and Daze hit more still, and you generally just run over the top of the rest.

If you want a removal spell, I think Psionic Blast and Threads of Disloyalty are your best options, period. Or maybe that new green spell that puts in two 1/1's that get Deathtouch if you win a Clash.

I completely agree about the inclusion of Psi-Blast, I've been playing a card for card version of the UG World Champ deck, and I could definitely see taking out the Snapback and Rushing River for 2x Psi-Blasts

Citrus-God
09-25-2007, 10:36 AM
Personally, I see Vedalken Shackles being a much better "Removal" card in this deck. Psi Blast may be reach, but it shouldnt matter since your guys are so big.

DragoFireheart
09-25-2007, 05:30 PM
Personally, I see Vedalken Shackles being a much better "Removal" card in this deck. Psi Blast may be reach, but it shouldnt matter since your guys are so big.

Have you ever had a problem with Shackles slowing your deck down?

Brushwagg
09-25-2007, 08:01 PM
Umm no I haven't as of yet. Also it's a great in alot of matches. Randomly the Landstill match too. More often then not they won't activate manlands to block or attck with Shackels out. The other thing that I like about it is that it stays in play even if the creature dies, plus it only takes 2 to activate.

Sigar
09-28-2007, 07:20 AM
So what is the better choice, Threads or Shackles?

DragoFireheart
09-28-2007, 10:10 AM
So what is the better choice, Threads or Shackles?

Shackles more than likely, though it takes a extra turn to set up and more than likely won't hit a Ph.D. You also can't pitch Shackles to FoW.

Brushwagg
09-28-2007, 07:11 PM
So what is the better choice, Threads or Shackles?

I'd have to say Shackels also. It does cost 5 to take take the first creature, but you can get multiples with them and since you play alot of Islands it's not that hard to get bigger stuff. While I do like Threads it is rather limited in what it can get, and only can be used once.

Cait_Sith
09-28-2007, 07:20 PM
I love Shackles simply because you can keep stealing random creatures. Steal a lackey. Lackey dead? Take their Seige-Gang. Wanna take that Warchief two turns later? It is yours.

It can be insane how you can keep switching around.

DragoFireheart
09-29-2007, 01:05 AM
How about adding 1-2 Sword of Fire and Ice? That would be slightly better than Jitte in the Goblin match-up.

Also I just tried a modified version of this deck and it while it doesn't do that great against Goblins [Kiki is annoying making stupid SGG tokens] having Hailstorm in the sideboard, along with 2-needles main-deck gives this deck a fighting chance.

I want to try out Shackles as that would screw over Goblins big time.

Brushwagg
09-29-2007, 02:00 PM
Hmm.. SoFI seems to be good, but the problem I have with Equiptment all together in this deck is lack of creatures. I've tried Jitte but found it less then stellar because I had nothing to equipt. You only have 8 cretures that can carry anything.

If your facing alot of Goblins in your meta you might look into adding BEB and/or Hydroblast to your sideboard. If it's really Goblin infested I would take out the Spellsnares and add one of the above to the MD.


I want to try out Shackles as that would screw over Goblins big time.

Not really.

DragoFireheart
09-29-2007, 10:15 PM
Hmm.. SoFI seems to be good, but the problem I have with Equiptment all together in this deck is lack of creatures. I've tried Jitte but found it less then stellar because I had nothing to equipt. You only have 8 cretures that can carry anything.

Well I am still play testing those, probably don't need them as my dudes are more than large enough.


If your facing alot of Goblins in your meta you might look into adding BEB and/or Hydroblast to your sideboard. If it's really Goblin infested I would take out the Spellsnares and add one of the above to the MD.

Well thankfully the meta is far from being infested. Only one person played gobbos and I almost beat the second time I faced him for 1st place. However I named SGG with my needle and not Kiki. He then plays Kiki and makes masses of Goblin tokens, GG.


Not really.

Hmmm.... So Shackles should be a sideboard option? There wasn't any time during the matches when I first played this deck that I wanted shackles: I had plenty of counter to stop W/e my opponent played and the only thing my deck was lacking was Stifles to handle some Goblin Matorns, Wastelands and Fetch Lands.

Clark Kant
09-30-2007, 10:47 AM
Does Garruk have any potential here as a finisher along the vein of Mystic Enforcer?

At worst, he's a 3/3 after your opponent used up a burn spell to deal with him. But his overrun ability makes him a nice finisher. And the land untap ability lets you chain cantrips together till you find the answer you are looking for.

DragoFireheart
09-30-2007, 11:06 AM
Does Garruk have any potential here as a finisher along the vein of Mystic Enforcer?

At worst, he's a 3/3 after your opponent used up a burn spell to deal with him. But his overrun ability makes him a nice finisher. And the land untap ability lets you chain cantrips together till you find the answer you are looking for.

For this deck I could see him being a 1-of. Swarms of bears to smash face is appealing, and having an Overun after building up some points is pretty good.

Brushwagg
09-30-2007, 12:58 PM
@DragonFIreheart: I want to clarify. You said Shackels screws over Goblins big time. What I meant was it's not the wrecking ball you think, that is if you meant that statment the way I took it. Shackels is a great option in the board for alot of other decks, but I'd rather bring in Hail Storms since killing alot is better then stealing one because they run so many dudes that stealing one at a time is kinda meh.


Does Garruk have any potential here as a finisher along the vein of Mystic Enforcer?

Can't really say yet, he needs to be tested. However it does only cost 2 (Using his untap lands). Also he might allow this deck to super aggro if needed. Either dropping bears or just allowing you to play alot of dudes from your hand and letting you keep 2 lands open for counters, Stifles, etc.. Not sure if you'll need the Overrun ability but nice to have that option open.

EDIT: Almost forgot. Here's a card that I think can break open the mirror matches for all Gro decks.

Eyes of the Wisent 1G
Tribal Enchantment Elemental

Whenever an opponent plays a blue spell during your turn, you may put a 4/4 green Elemental creature token into play.

DragoFireheart
09-30-2007, 07:47 PM
@DragonFIreheart: I want to clarify. You said Shackels screws over Goblins big time. What I meant was it's not the wrecking ball you think, that is if you meant that statment the way I took it. Shackels is a great option in the board for alot of other decks, but I'd rather bring in Hail Storms since killing alot is better then stealing one because they run so many dudes that stealing one at a time is kinda meh.

After thinking about it I would rather force them to swing and just hailstorm their whole army. Shackles could work in other decks though.



Can't really say yet, he needs to be tested. However it does only cost 2 (Using his untap lands). Also he might allow this deck to super aggro if needed. Either dropping bears or just allowing you to play alot of dudes from your hand and letting you keep 2 lands open for counters, Stifles, etc.. Not sure if you'll need the Overrun ability but nice to have that option open.

I was thinking about him and he would be awesome Vs goblins because you could build up your own army of 3/3 bears. Unless the Goblins main-decks burn you don't have to worry about Incinerator hitting the Planeswalker either.

Garruk also works nicely in Landstill matches as they have no way of removing him [can't swords, deed or wrath him].

Just build up an army of Goyfs Gooses and Grizzlies then use his overrun ability to smash goblins.


EDIT: Almost forgot. Here's a card that I think can break open the mirror matches for all Gro decks.

Eyes of the Wisent 1G
Tribal Enchantment Elemental

Whenever an opponent plays a blue spell during your turn, you may put a 4/4 green Elemental creature token into play.

As a sideboard option I could see this breaking up Gro-mirrior matches, though with the Stifle/Wasteland combo [which works REALLY well with 1-Crucible of Worlds I might add] it may not be needed.

Brushwagg
09-30-2007, 09:01 PM
I'm not saying cut Shackels altogether, I just don't or won't bring it in the Goblin match. It's pretty good aganist a alot of other stuff though.

@Eyes of the Wisent: I feel that this will find a way into alot of Gro boards. I know I'm going to get them in there. It pretty much makes every Blue spell in an opponent's deck a sorcery or you keep getting 4/4's.

DragoFireheart
09-30-2007, 09:23 PM
Here's the current Thresh deck I am using:

Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Werebear

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
4 Portent
3 Predict
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

Artifacts
1 Crucible of Worlds

Lands
1 Forest
5 Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
4 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Echoing Truth
2 Hail Storm
2 Krosan Grip
3 Energy Flux
2 Pithing Needle

Mainboard:

My deck is still under some construction as it needs a few more fetchlands to help my Thresh. It did win me 2nd place at a recent local tourney in Athol, MA.

I tried out the Worlds lock and it works so damn well that I have won games by simply beating down with a mongoose. Mongoose is simply MVP in Thresh decks.

Sideboard:

There's some kid in my meta that uses Affinity every time he plays so Flux is for his viewing pleasures. :laugh:

Blue Elemental Blast stop the random burn deck that someone always plays and helps my goblin match-up. Grip is a given; hail storm stop gobbos. Needle is for disabling ability depend decks and Echoing truth acts like a versatile EE for 0 on tokens and a mass bouncer on other crap I didn't counter.

I was thinking of maybe replacing Predicts for Remands as it would let me cantrip and stall my opponent.

Also I was thinking of adding some sort of Flyer to the deck to act as a finisher.

Here's a janky suggestion: Trygon Predator. :smile:

Brushwagg
09-30-2007, 09:44 PM
I was thinking of maybe replacing Predicts for Remands as it would let me cantrip and stall my opponent.

Umm.. NO!!! Here's why. Predict is the only way for this deck to draw extra cards. Cantripping doesn't count and will only take you so far. More often then not, those cantrips aren't going to chain together. When I was looking at your list I would go -1 Portent and +1 Predict. It's that important IMO.

DragoFireheart
09-30-2007, 10:01 PM
Umm.. NO!!! Here's why. Predict is the only way for this deck to draw extra cards. Cantripping doesn't count and will only take you so far. More often then not, those cantrips aren't going to chain together. When I was looking at your list I would go -1 Portent and +1 Predict. It's that important IMO.

Will I be alright with only 7 cantrips though?

HdH_Cthulhu
10-01-2007, 06:40 AM
Here's a janky suggestion: Trygon Predator. :smile:

I run one Trygon Predator in my ***** deck.
The ability to destroy artifacts and enchantmens is mostly useless.
Whenever my opponent plays artifacts and enchantments i dont had him and vica verca... But he is a flyer! That was good enogh that i keep him in my MD as a 1 of...

Brushwagg
10-01-2007, 09:19 PM
Will I be alright with only 7 cantrips though?

A better idea might be -1 Daze. Just because in all the testing and playing I've done, not with just this deck but with other NQG decks also, Dazes gets worse as the game goes on. Even with the mana denial plan. People expect it and play around it later in the game. This way you keep the 8 Cantrips and get the 4th Predict.

@Crucible:Been meaning to ask on this one. How is it working out? If it seems to be working out for you, you might try a 1 of Ghost Quarter. Since decks now a days are running less and less Basics.

DragoFireheart
10-01-2007, 09:50 PM
A better idea might be -1 Daze. Just because in all the testing and playing I've done, not with just this deck but with other NQG decks also, Dazes gets worse as the game goes on. Even with the mana denial plan. People expect it and play around it later in the game. This way you keep the 8 Cantrips and get the 4th Predict.

Daze is one of those spells you want to see in your opening hand but dread to see it drawn any other time. I think I might do that.


@Crucible:Been meaning to ask on this one. How is it working out? If it seems to be working out for you, you might try a 1 of Ghost Quarter. Since decks now a days are running less and less Basics.

Well for decks that don't have a heavy reliance on nonbasics it's a dead card to feed to Predicts [Which in turn feeds Goyf] though you could just cast it and have a recurring fetchland as well.

For the short amount of time I did test it against a deck that had a great deal of non-basic lands... it utterly destroyed them. Between wastelands, Stifling fetchs and then getting a recurring wasteland lock can normally mean GG for the other deck. The thing about U/G Thresh is that it's mana base is fairly resilient against this same combo as you can just fetch basics.

I may give Ghost Quarter a try, though when I had Ghost Quarter used against me it was more of a late game strat. With Goyf Goose and Grizzly your opponent should be long dead before you start to use a Ghost lock.

>>> I have also come up with a janky suggestion <<<


http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=29728

Aboshan's Desire

Enchant Creature

U

Enchanted creature has flying.

Threshold - Enchanted creature can't be the target of spells or abilities. (You have threshold as long as seven or more card are in your graveyard.)

It would make it hard for removal to hit our Goyfs and would let our Goyfs fly over other Goyfs. :D

Maybe a 1-2 of and it's not completely useless as it can be pitched to FoW.

Tacosnape
10-01-2007, 11:23 PM
>>> I have also come up with a janky suggestion <<<

Aboshan's Desire


You called it.

Seriously, though. Why open yourself up to a 2-for-1 via Swords to Plowshares and why run a card that's only effective if you have a Tarmogoyf or Bear out? You can't even play the thing on a Mongoose.

DragoFireheart
10-01-2007, 11:43 PM
You called it.

Seriously, though. Why open yourself up to a 2-for-1 via Swords to Plowshares and why run a card that's only effective if you have a Tarmogoyf or Bear out? You can't even play the thing on a Mongoose.

Well there has to be some sort of Green/Blue Artifact card that gives my guys evasion.

I wasn't being really serious with that card anyways: the Stifle/Wasteland shell works out nicely enough as it is and helps make up for the lack of removal this deck doesn't have. Something you might consider using is the wasteland/crucible lock in this deck with 1-2 worlds main-decked.

Brushwagg
10-02-2007, 07:18 PM
Also I'm not sure there's a ton of extra space in the deck.

Well if you want to give your guys flying there is Wonder. He pitches to FOW and you just Predict it to the yard. <--- Now that's janky.

DragoFireheart
10-02-2007, 07:20 PM
Also I'm not sure there's a ton of extra space in the deck.

Well if you want to give your guys flying there is Wonder. He pitches to FOW and you just Predict it to the yard. <--- Now that's janky.

It's not that there isn't a ton of extra space in this deck... it's just there isn't any room left whatsoever.

The only cards I can see myself playing around with are Echoing Truth and Crucible of Worlds.

Also will this deck be using Ponder or sticking to Portent to help with the mana-denial strat?

Brushwagg
10-03-2007, 07:51 PM
No comment on the Wonder?? That makes me sad....

@Ponder vs. Portent:While Ponder gets you the card right away. It can't look at the oppoent's top cards of their library. So I think having the information or making them shuffle away a card that they need or you can't deal with right away is well worth waiting a half a turn for your card.

DragoFireheart
10-03-2007, 08:09 PM
No comment on the Wonder?? That makes me sad....

:laugh:

I might play test it as it:

1. Acts as a pitch to FoW
2. Can be discarded ala Predict to give me flying Gofys gooses and grizzles.
3. Can hardcast it as a beater. lol...



@Ponder vs. Portent:While Ponder gets you the card right away. It can't look at the oppoent's top cards of their library. So I think having the information or making them shuffle away a card that they need or you can't deal with right away is well worth waiting a half a turn for your card.

I think if this deck was UGr or UGw we would use Ponder: however Portent acts as yet another way to deny our opponent mana as part of our mana denial strat [Stifle + Wasteland + Crucible in my UG Thresh].

However if I were to ever get rid of Portent there would be no question of which cantrip to put in it's place: Ponder would be that cantrip.

DragoFireheart
10-06-2007, 11:39 AM
Has anyone tested the Green-Planeswalker Garrock yet?

Brushwagg
10-07-2007, 07:16 PM
Nope. But I'll get around to it. Right now I'm trying together a list of stuff I need.

Citrus-God
10-09-2007, 03:21 PM
The cards I was not very happy with in this deck are Counterbalance and Tops from the board, bounce, and Predict. This deck wants to be the Aggressor at nature, why not be run Mental Note? You have 8 Threshold creatures, thats a good reason...


// Lands 18
4 Wasteland
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
1 Forest
2 Island


// Creatures 12
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Tarmogoyf


// Spells 30
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent/Ponder
4 Mental Note
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
2 Engineered Explosives


// Sideboard 15
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Krosan Grip
2 Seal of Primordium
3 Control Magic
3 Plaxcaster Frogling/Plaxmanta?

I really like Plaxcaster right now, but it is also at times pretty crappy. Might end up being Plaxmanta...

Illissius
10-09-2007, 03:35 PM
How are the 8 Brainstorms working out for you?

DragoFireheart
10-09-2007, 03:42 PM
The cards I was not very happy with in this deck are Counterbalance and Tops from the board, bounce, and Predict. This deck wants to be the Aggressor at nature, why not be run Mental Note? You have 8 Threshold creatures, thats a good reason...


// Lands 18
4 Wasteland
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
1 Forest
2 Island


// Creatures 12
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Tarmogoyf


// Spells 30
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent/Ponder
4 Mental Note
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
2 Engineered Explosives


// Sideboard 15
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Krosan Grip
2 Seal of Primordium
3 Control Magic
3 Plaxcaster Frogling/Plaxmanta?

I really like Plaxcaster right now, but it is also at times pretty crappy. Might end up being Plaxmanta...

One of the reasons to run predict is to get rid of some of your opponents removal/bombs from the top of their deck ala Portent/Predict. Predict w/ Portent can also let you continue your mana denial strat. Finally Predict gives you card advantage later on.

Brushwagg
10-09-2007, 06:52 PM
The only version I would run Mental Note in is Black. For 2 reasons,

1. You have Bob.

2. You have access to Night's Whisper, which IMO is better then Predict.

While I'm not a huge fan of Predict at all (Ok I really don't like the card), why can't FOF cost 2 or Truth or Tale be alot better?? But we are stuck with it for now, since it fills the yard and the hand.

@Plaxcaster: I found him to be really crappy. I still haven't found anything to fill another beater slot. There is always Dryad.

Citrus-God
10-09-2007, 09:16 PM
The only version I would run Mental Note in is Black. For 2 reasons,

1. You have Bob.

2. You have access to Night's Whisper, which IMO is better then Predict.

While I'm not a huge fan of Predict at all (Ok I really don't like the card), why can't FOF cost 2 or Truth or Tale be alot better?? But we are stuck with it for now, since it fills the yard and the hand.

@Plaxcaster: I found him to be really crappy. I still haven't found anything to fill another beater slot. There is always Dryad.

Vedalken Shackles works as well.


@Predict: The point was, I didnt want to draw cards with this deck, I wanted to win while my opponent is having trouble piecing his mess together.

Nihil Credo
10-10-2007, 06:52 AM
The only version I would run Mental Note in is Black. For 2 reasons,

1. You have Bob.

2. You have access to Night's Whisper, which IMO is better then Predict.
Uh... what is this point exactly? Any cantrip sets up Bob better than Mental Note, and without the need for a Brainstorm or something beforehand. And I just fail to see any synergy at all with Night's Whisper.

Good reasons to run Mental Note in UGb are Ghastly Demise and Tombstalker (although 4 are probably not necessary).

Brushwagg
10-10-2007, 07:59 PM
What I meant was Bob is your card advantage, so you can run Mental Note to just fill the yard and not have to worry about playing Predict to fill your hand and yard.

@Night's Whisper:I brought this up because IMO it's alot better then Predict. I'll gladly take sorcery speed for not having to set-up my top card. If you haven't seen my posts in the past, I really hate Predict, but it's the best thing for this deck.

As far as Mental Note for this deck, I don't think it fits because you have no other way of filling your hand back up.

Nihil Credo
10-11-2007, 07:53 AM
Ah, OK, I got it. Here's a secret, though: if you get a Bob to stick around, there's about a 90% chance you will win that game anyway.

Citrus-God
10-11-2007, 11:10 AM
Ah, OK, I got it. Here's a secret, though: if you get a Bob to stick around, there's about a 90% chance you will win that game anyway.

The 10% is against Burn and 43 Land.

DragoFireheart
10-11-2007, 11:50 AM
The 10% is against Burn and 43 Land.

And I am sure the Burn decks totally thrash Threshold! :rolleyes:

The black splash is this way though: :laugh:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5534&page=8

Sigar
10-12-2007, 06:45 AM
Doesn't the UG thres version focus on being aggressive and gaining board control by throwing down a lot of meat?

If yes, why not run Mental Note over Predict, so you can acquire threshold faster?

Citrus-God
10-12-2007, 12:56 PM
And I am sure the Burn decks totally thrash Threshold! :rolleyes:

With some many mana efficient Burn cards being printed, I know that burn will thrash threshold if threshold doesnt get it's Counterbalance up.

@Sigar: what I was thinking.

Lemuria
10-12-2007, 10:26 PM
And I am sure the Burn decks totally thrash Threshold! :rolleyes:

Last weekend I played against a this Thresh deck. I was playing Burn.


Well, game one was piece of cake, he could not control so much burns on his head. Game 2 and 3 he got counterbalance so there's nothing more I could do against that.

Basically, burn totally thrash Thresh and almost any deck on game one. Game two is totally in favor of Thresh.

troopatroop
10-12-2007, 10:36 PM
Last weekend I played against a this Thresh deck. I was playing Burn.


Well, game one was piece of cake, he could not control so much burns on his head. Game 2 and 3 he got counterbalance so there's nothing more I could do against that.

Basically, burn totally thrash Thresh and almost any deck on game one. Game two is totally in favor of Thresh.

He could just as easily get Counterbalance game 1 too.

Lemuria
10-12-2007, 10:47 PM
He could just as easily get Counterbalance game 1 too.

Maybe, but he decided to go agressive since he did not know what I was playing

Bane of the Living
10-13-2007, 12:38 PM
Wait are some of you not playing Mental Note or something? If theres any version that wants it its the one with 8 thresh creatures in it.

Trygon Predator has been nasty in our testing.

I prefer this version right now, wasteland is just too good in thresh. My opinion may change when and if I aquire Gaddock Teegs.

Brushwagg
10-13-2007, 09:48 PM
No this version really doesn't want Mental Note. It needs Predict to keep you hand size up, which can get quite low and there is nothing else that serves both as graveyard and hand filler in the 2 mana slot.

DragoFireheart
10-13-2007, 10:17 PM
No this version really doesn't want Mental Note. It needs Predict to keep you hand size up, which can get quite low and there is nothing else that serves both as graveyard and hand filler in the 2 mana slot.

I disagree. You want Thresh quickly to captialize on the mana disruption. Kill their mana and pound the crap out of them before they recover.

If you really want to use Predict and not have it simply be an over-costed Mental Note I would suggest main-decking 1-2 tops. Predicts almost always need a cantrip of some sort to set up: Mental Note doesn't.

Citrus-God
10-14-2007, 04:03 AM
I disagree. You want Thresh quickly to captialize on the mana disruption. Kill their mana and pound the crap out of them before they recover.

Sadly, I agree with this mindset when playing Wasteland. It may not suit my play style, but this mindset is what makes the more Tempo oriented version of Threshold do well.

kabal
10-14-2007, 12:47 PM
Is anyone else surprised that this build wasn't packing submerge (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=21296) either MB or in the SB?

DragoFireheart
10-14-2007, 12:50 PM
Is anyone else surprised that this build wasn't packing submerge (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=21296) either MB or in the SB?

It must be one of those cards that no one remembers/has heard of. Sounds like an interesting way to stall an opponents Goyf.

Tacosnape
10-14-2007, 02:11 PM
Submerge would also be pretty hilarious with Counterbalance when playing against Force of Will.

DragoFireheart
10-17-2007, 08:32 PM
The problem I have with Submerge is that I simply don't have any space for it.

Sigar
10-19-2007, 05:36 AM
Could Trinket Mage + toolbox be any good in this deck? It lets you run fewer Tops, better access to EE and other stuff like Crypt. Is it too slow?

DragoFireheart
10-19-2007, 09:59 AM
Could Trinket Mage + toolbox be any good in this deck? It lets you run fewer Tops, better access to EE and other stuff like Crypt. Is it too slow?

Again, same problem as submerge. I got no room for any funky tricks.

Brushwagg
10-19-2007, 11:08 PM
Could Trinket Mage + toolbox be any good in this deck? It lets you run fewer Tops, better access to EE and other stuff like Crypt. Is it too slow?

That is way too slow and uneeded for this deck. It's all about dropping undercosted beatsticks, controlling a few turns and bashing face all the while.

@Submerge:I would probably totally agree on this, if better bounce wasn't printed. I truly think that Echoing truth is all you need. It bouncees any non land permenant, and multiples if they have it.

kabal
10-19-2007, 11:10 PM
@Submerge:I would probably totally agree on this, if better bounce wasn't printed. I truly think that Echoing truth is all you need. It bouncees any non land permenant, and multiples if they have it.

Except that Submerge is a "free" bounce spell that puts the creatures onto of your opponent's library.

DragoFireheart
10-20-2007, 12:05 AM
Submerge is a very narrow answer to other thresh-decks Gofys.

Sigar
10-20-2007, 10:52 AM
I made top 4 today with U/G thres, losing to affinity in semis; pretty hard matchup.

Lukas Preuss
10-20-2007, 11:06 AM
Submerge has also nice synergy with Predict, in case somebody hasn't noticed.

donkyranger
10-25-2007, 11:36 AM
Now I heard over the grapevine that Peter Olszewski aka. DicemanX not only tested and tuned such a list but managed to win the 2007 Legacy Championship with it!

I, along with my team meates, are bambuzuled how he did that, I dont understand how such a bad deck won, but hey didn't Madness win not too long ago?

DragoFireheart
10-25-2007, 11:47 AM
I, along with my team meates, are bambuzuled how he did that, I dont understand how such a bad deck won, but hey didn't Madness win not too long ago?

I wouldn't call it a bad deck. You really have to see how devastating Wasteland + Stifle can be for mana denial.

paps
10-31-2007, 09:52 PM
Well, I'm building this deck currently as I can't afford the duals for any other Thresh variant. My list (which is currently incomplete) is running 4 Quirion Dryads in place of 4 Goyfs. This was originally only because Goyfs are $33 a pop, and I'd rather spend that money on Tropical Islands and Force of Wills.
However, I've played a lot with friends using Quirion Dryad. Granted, I've never played with goyf (so it could be amazing) but I find that Dryad is quite good. I can usually get it to a 4/4 the turn after I play it, and from there on, it only gets bigger. It's unbelievable in multiples. I do realize that Goyf is instantly a whatever/whatever as soon as it comes down, however, I've never had much of a problem with Dryad being too small, as it only costs 1G to cast.
So, my question is, how necessary is it to run Goyf to be competitive?

Goaswerfraiejen
10-31-2007, 11:03 PM
Well, I'm building this deck currently as I can't afford the duals for any other Thresh variant. My list (which is currently incomplete) is running 4 Quirion Dryads in place of 4 Goyfs. This was originally only because Goyfs are $33 a pop, and I'd rather spend that money on Tropical Islands and Force of Wills.
However, I've played a lot with friends using Quirion Dryad. Granted, I've never played with goyf (so it could be amazing) but I find that Dryad is quite good. I can usually get it to a 4/4 the turn after I play it, and from there on, it only gets bigger. It's unbelievable in multiples. I do realize that Goyf is instantly a whatever/whatever as soon as it comes down, however, I've never had much of a problem with Dryad being too small, as it only costs 1G to cast.
So, my question is, how necessary is it to run Goyf to be competitive?


While I don't think that Tarmogoyf is necessary, I do think that it's the best possible card to fill that slot. Dryad does face a number of hurdles in a 'Goyf-saturated metagame:

1.) You need to spend spells to grow it, so when it gets killed by whatever Goyf removal is running around (which tends to be based on destruction effects--or outright theft!--rather than damage/toughness modification), you're put at a major disadvantage.

2.) Quirion Dryad is less reliable than Tarmogoyf--that is, you need to spend resources to grow the Dryad to a threatening size, whereas Tarmogoyf basically grows himself. It's also important to note that growing a Tarmogoyf is basically a one-shot deal: that is, you only need to do it once for all four to be big. Ultimately, all this means that Tarmogoyf is a far better topdeck, and that he's a sturdier, more reliable beatstick overall.

Now, those are the main disadvantages of running Dryad instead of Tarmogoyf. There are plenty of situations, however, when that Dryad looks a whole lot meaner. Dryad has a number of advantages, it just requires a larger overall commitment than Tarmogoyf, hence why I think that it's fallen out of favour. None of that means that Dryad is bad--hell, it and Werebear were popular beatsticks prior to Future Sight. I'm sure that you can do quite well with the Dryads--especially since we're talking about upwards of $100 to replace them with Tarmogoyf. If you're planning on attending a gigantic event like the world championships or something, you'll probably need to find some Tarmogoyfs. Otherwise, I think that Dryad should still serve you well.


EDIT: I should add that I just realized that this was UG Threshold. Accordingly, I've got to say that I'm much more skeptical about the Dryad's overall usefulness, since you can only grow it with a single colour; how easy is it to grow late-game Dryads? It's possible that you might have to consider something else entirely as a replacement.

paps
10-31-2007, 11:20 PM
Alright; thanks. I'm still familiarizing myself with Legacy as I haven't played in this format for about a year. When I saw that goblins was no longer dominant, it was quite a shock ;). I had sold most of my collection so I'm rebuilding from close to scratch.

Anyway, has anyone considered running Condescend over Spell Snare? It can near cantrip if needed, and seems to be more versatile in the late game. Or maybe a 2/2 between the 2?

My build, until I find the cards, has actually been running 2 Ancestral Visions. I've found them to work quite well, in fact, if I can get them going early, as if one resolves on turn 5 I basically win (of course, I haven't been to any tournaments yet, so this may not be true against the top tier). Just throwing that card out there as a possibility, though it would kinda suck late game, and is a sorcery, it can pitch to FoW at that point and due to brainstorm and co., you won't have to draw one.

xsockmonkeyx
11-01-2007, 03:56 AM
So, my question is, how necessary is it to run Goyf to be competitive?

Not as necessary as FoW, (Brainstorm), Fetches and Duals. Those are the cards that you absolutely need to be competetive so buy those first and then Goyf. You can substitute GOyf with Bears and/or Dryads but there are no substitutes for FoW, Brainstorm, and Fetches/Duals.

PhanTom_lt
11-06-2007, 03:27 AM
I have taken 9th place with UG Thresh in a 45 player tournament in GP: Krakow Legacy side event. The whole thing was won by Remi Fortier with UGr Thresh.
R1 - RW aggro. 1st game I miss the Daze in my hand to counter his Isamaru. It almost beats me to death. However I play 2 Goyf, 2 Mongoose in 2 turns, when he's at 15, and I'm at 7. He tries to burn me with Lavamancer, but, when I'm at 3 life, Chain Lightnings me, I use the same Daze to save me the game. 2nd game i get lucky with Counterbalance.
R2 - CRET Belcher. He begins, plays Lotus Petal, Rite of Flame. I have in my hand Force, Daze, Stifle, 2 Fetchlands, Wasteland and a green dork. yeah, I win. He tries to combo off later, but i have EE for his 6 goblins and Chrome Mox. 2nd game he plays Petal, Rite, Ritual, Song, Burning Wish. I know he has EtW in his hand, I have Stifle, but no Force. He checks his sideboard and doesn't find anything, and he can't play EtW because he has only 3 mana left.
R3 - RG Dryad Sligh. I win. Countering blindly with 'balance 1 Lightning Bolt, 2 Goyfs and a Dryad felt evil..
R4 - SuiBlack. I mull to five, he plays double Hymn. Don't remember the rest but I lose.
R5 - GBW Terrageddon. Some stupid mistakes from both of us. 1-1. Trying to put a Leyline into play on his 2nd turn is not tech. Trying to Thread (of disloyalty) his Terravore is also not tech.
R6 - 43 land.dec. Whoa, that thing is strange. He crushes me in the first game, while I'm learning what does his deck do. Next game he screws up, and I beat him with 2 goyfs to his one Maze of Ith. Wasteland is golden in this matchup. 3rd game, he forgets to dredge Life from the Loam once, I Crypt it next turn. 3 Nimble Mongoose beat him because I finally don't forget to pay for Tabernacle, and his Mazes can't target the geese.
R7 - Solidarity. He mulls to five, I win. G2, he escapes from Counterbalance lock somehow by manipulating the Stack. G3, he needs 2 topdecks and and a no-topdeck from me, while I have Counterbalance on table. Yeah, I reveal a land, he topdecks Meditate with Peek, then he disrupts it, pays, draws the exact cards he needed. Should have ID'ed.

Decklist I played with:
Lands:
3 Breeding Pool
2 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 island
4 Wasteland

Beats:
4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

Cantrips:
4 Serum Visions
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

Spells:
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
1 Engineered Explosives

SB:
1 EE
3 Krosan Grip
3 Threads of Disloaylty
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trygon Predator
3 Blue Elemental Blast.

Brushwagg
11-06-2007, 08:12 PM
Sounds like Karma caught up with you in round 7 there. Because 43 land should have wiped the floor with you. Your opponent just handed those games to you. Oh well.


Anyway, has anyone considered running Condescend over Spell Snare? It can near cantrip if needed, and seems to be more versatile in the late game. Or maybe a 2/2 between the 2?

I'd have to say Spell Snare. SS just costs you 1 and Condescend cost you more then 1. But I would suggest looking at Counterbalance.

Remember this is a tempo deck, disrupt them mana as much as possible, drop uncosted beaters, and stop your opponent from doing anything while getting beat down.


2 Ancestral Visions.

What is this in place of? I don't think anything in the cantrip engine is that hard to get a hold of.

4x Brainstrom
4x Predict
4x Ponder/Portent/Serum Visions

@Goyf: If I didn't have Goyfs I'd probably do the same as you and use Dryad. The nice thing about this deck is outside of your creatures, every other spell is Blue, and is not that hard to get it big. Anyrate good luck

PhanTom_lt
11-09-2007, 05:17 AM
43 land matchup was weird. The guy managed to win 2(!) games against Solidarity, going 1-1 and 1-2 against them.
On the other note, I terribly missed MD removal of some sort. What options are there? Threads of Disloyalty seem to little, Control Magic maybe? Or Vedalken Shackles? Or Lignify? :D

paps
11-09-2007, 07:16 PM
The Ancestral Visions are replacing 1x Werebear and 1x Stifle, sadly, because I don't have them. However, I was commenting that they have been working.

Another thing: Has Merchant Scroll been considered?

Sigar
11-11-2007, 11:26 AM
Why would you ever run Merchant Scroll? There is no Ancestral to be found.

Illissius
11-15-2007, 01:53 PM
So, I had a crazy idea.

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Back to Basics

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Serum Visions

2 Rushing River or something

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
5 Island
3 Forest

SB: Crypts, Needles, Grips, Explosives, Chills, Blasts, Submerges, etc.

Trying sample hands on MWS, the manabase seems to be holding up quite well enough, with the exception of the odd no-land or single-Forest-plus-many-cantrips hand (which would have been just as unkeepable had it been a Wasteland instead). I sort of want to run a blue creature (Drake or Efreet) as well in case I don't draw green, but they'd replace Bears, who work pretty well with the B2B plan themselves (producing green after you cast them off a Tropical and stuff). Sensei's Divining Top also seems attractive so that if you only draw one color, whichever one it is, you can use it to find the other, but it's not great for gaining Threshold and begs the Counterbalances, while I'm very consciously avoiding anything which costs more than a single colored mana to cast. Maybe it's doable for the sideboard, though. I also dropped the Predicts in favor of maximum early digging power (for your green sources).

Thoughts? Haven't tested it, being the laziest person ever, but given that Back to Basics can nuke some of your hardest matchups (other than Goblins) -- and quite a few of your other matchups too, I think this has promise.

xsockmonkeyx
11-15-2007, 02:08 PM
Not a bad idea. Dont know if I would run 4 B2B though.

Tacosnape
11-15-2007, 02:43 PM
R7 - Solidarity. He mulls to five, I win. G2, he escapes from Counterbalance lock somehow by manipulating the Stack.

To my knowledge there isn't really any way to do this, unless you like, tried to drop your SDT on top of your library in response to a Tide, in which case he can let your SDT activation resolve and go off without any 1CC spells, which is incredibly difficult. Some of his spells still have to resolve eventually.

From a Solidarity player who has extreme difficulties with Counterbalance, I'm very curious to know how he supposedly pulled this off.

EDIT: @Ilissius: The Back to Basics list is really neat. Is there a way to get SDT/Counterbalance maindecked? Because Back to Basics has the neat little distinction of costing 3, which makes SDT/Counterbalance all the more abuseable and gives you a use for excess B2B's.

Nihil Credo
11-15-2007, 02:49 PM
There are three outs to Counterbalance lock:

1) Resolve Cunning Wish -> Wipe Away, since they probably have no 3cc cards against you
2) Trick them into drawing with Top
3) Trick them into tapping out

Remand can help to pull off #2 or #3, but it still means wasting 3+ mana to make them waste one, so it's pretty fucking hard.

Brushwagg
11-15-2007, 09:47 PM
B2B is probabaly worth a test at least.

But I don't like the mana base you posted. The Wasteland and Stifle mana denial is too powerful. So I'd probably go with a list that looked like this.

4x Blue Fetches (doesn't matter)
2x Green Fetches (doesn't matter)
4x Wasteland
2x Tropical Island
3x Island
2x Forest*

4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Werebear
4x Tarmogoyf

4x Brainstorm
3x Portent**
4x Predict

4x FOW
4x Stifle
3x Daze
3x Counterbalance
2x Top

2x B2B
2x Echoing Truth

*Could be the 4th Island. Depends on how much the 2nd Forest makes Shackels suck.
**Can be Ponder but I use Portent to help with the mana denial theme.

thefreakaccident
11-16-2007, 11:31 AM
this list has been treating me very well during testing... I have only played it in tournement play once and got second to pikula... here is the list:

lands//18
4 wasteland
4 tropical island
4 flooded strand
2 wooded foothills
1 island
1 forest
2 breeding pools

creatures//14
4 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
4 trinket mage
2 phyrexian dreadnought

spells//28
4 force of will
4 daze
3 counterbalance
4 stifle
2 trickbind
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 serum visions
2 sensei's divining top
1 Aether spellbomb
1 pithing needle

The sideboard keeps changing on me, but it is currently...

4 tormod's crypt
2 pithing needle
2 engineered explosives
1 Aether spellbomb
4 back to basics (glad we think alike brushwagg :)...)
2 propaganda (decent against opposing aggro-control w/ mana denial in the mix)...

The deck is based on raping tempo, and then finishing off the opponent quickly with pleanty of protection to back up the beats... the combo MU is excellent, and so is basically any MU that requires their early land-drops... Mana- rape + countermagic in our format really pay off...

I lost to opposing LD due to vindicate and sinkhole, I had stifles for his wastes...

nastynate
11-16-2007, 11:49 AM
this list has been treating me very well during testing... I have only played it in tournement play once and got second to pikula... here is the list:

lands//18
4 wasteland
4 tropical island
4 flooded strand
2 wooded foothills
1 island
1 forest
2 breeding pools

creatures//14
4 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
4 trinket mage
2 phyrexian dreadnought

spells//28
4 force of will
4 daze
3 counterbalance
4 stifle
2 trickbind
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 serum visions
2 sensei's divining top
1 Aether spellbomb
1 pithing needle

The sideboard keeps changing on me, but it is currently...

4 tormod's crypt
2 pithing needle
2 engineered explosives
1 Aether spellbomb
4 back to basics (glad we think alike brushwagg :)...)
2 propaganda (decent against opposing aggro-control w/ mana denial in the mix)...

The deck is based on raping tempo, and then finishing off the opponent quickly with pleanty of protection to back up the beats... the combo MU is excellent, and so is basically any MU that requires their early land-drops... Mana- rape + countermagic in our format really pay off...

I lost to opposing LD due to vindicate and sinkhole, I had stifles for his wastes...

If you're going to add stifle-nought, you should strongly consider the white splash for enlightened tutor. Enlightened tutor not only finds you dreadnought (which should be a singleton IMO) but it also finds both pieces of the counter-top engine, and many of the side-board cards you are likely to bring in for various match-ups. Trinket mage is sub-par in a format with access to enlightened tutor.

thefreakaccident
11-16-2007, 11:56 AM
enlightened tutor is inferior to trinket mage in an aggro-control shell though... while he is both on color and a beater... the deck cannot afford a 3c suite in its' current incarnation... the nought is a 2 of, because occasionally you want a second one if one gets either:
a.) gripped (a common card in my meta)
b.) destroyed...

Counterbalance is usually out the same time he does, but ossasionally daze and FoW just doesn't save him when they throw everything they have to kill that one guy... Trust me, 2 is just fine for the list (unless you see little to no disruption, then by all means run just 1).

nastynate
11-16-2007, 12:34 PM
enlightened tutor is inferior to trinket mage in an aggro-control shell though... while he is both on color and a beater... the deck cannot afford a 3c suite in its' current incarnation... the nought is a 2 of, because occasionally you want a second one if one gets either:
a.) gripped (a common card in my meta)
b.) destroyed...

Are you saying a turn 3 trinket mage + turn 4 stifle-nought is superior to a turn 1 enlightened tutor + turn 2 stifle-nought? If so, you are wrong.

Are you saying that threshold cannot support a 3 color mana base? If so, you are wrong.


Counterbalance is usually out the same time he does, but ossasionally daze and FoW just doesn't save him when they throw everything they have to kill that one guy... Trust me, 2 is just fine for the list (unless you see little to no disruption, then by all means run just 1).

Your logic (and grammar) confounds me. If they dedicate all their resources to stopping stifle-nought, you want to keep running face-first into their countermeasures? Why have two dead card slots instead of one? It's not like threshold has no other means of winning.

thefreakaccident
11-16-2007, 01:20 PM
It is difficult to have 3 colors within 18 lands while still complementing a full set of wastealnds... I am fully aware of the flexibility of thresh's manabases, seeing that I play every varient of thresh known to man.

I will still argue that tutor is inferior simply due to the fact that it cannot pitch to FoW and it requires another splash for the deck, which I already stated is a bad idea... I will edit this later.

electrolyze
11-20-2007, 04:35 PM
i just decided i want to play this deck so i've tested it on mws and i really like it.

this is my first list after some testing:

4#Werebear
4#Nimble Mongoose
4#Tarmogoyf

2#Counterbalance
2#Sensei’s Divining Top

4#Force of Will
4#Daze
3#Spell Snare
3#Stifle

3#Predict
4#Brainstorm
4#Ponder

1#Engineered Explosives

4#Wasteland
2#Polluted Delta
2#Flooded Strand
3#Wooded Foothills
4#Tropical Island
2#Island
1#Forest


are there any reccomendents on this list?

i test terravore now for a long time in ugr thresh and its a supergood creature in it i think, shall i play it in ug thresh too because in this deck you have wastelands too and with the amount of fetch you and probably your opponents play terravore is a real fattei with trample, wich can be really good against many mu's. what do you people think of terravore in thresh?

and what about the countertop combo? should i play it in ug thresh or only in sideboard?

Rood
11-20-2007, 04:54 PM
The CB/Top is incredible powerful not only does it manip your card draws but it also shits on 3/4 of the format. Definetally run it in the maindeck if not add more CB/Tops.

electrolyze
11-20-2007, 05:11 PM
yes, i really like the countertop combo and is the 2top/2balance split is good or should i even add more of this card combo in it? but balance/top are dead cards if you have them twice so i thougth 2/2 is the right combination maindeck.

what do you think of the rest of the list and afcourse about my suggestion to put terravores in it?

kabal
11-26-2007, 07:22 PM
Just browsing through some Top 8 lists, and noticed this build (http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=12123).


Mind Harness (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/78.html)
(1), Enchantment - Aura
Enchant red or green creature.
Cumulative Upkeep - {1}.
You control enchanted creature.

It makes sense for a U/G to run this card, since it has next to no removable and considering today's meta. Is it better than Threads or Control Magic? Once it gets around to attacking, you have invested 2 mana. Second attack, you now equal to Threads. But then you have invested less mana per turn, which still allows you to cantrip and cast cheap counter magic.

How about the Red side of it; what Red creatures would you take? If we are talking Goblins; Warchief, Kiki or I guess could be any targetable Goblin?

What are your guys thoughts on its inclusion?

Rood
11-26-2007, 07:45 PM
that seems like crazy meta call right there...but it makes sense 1 mana gain control of target Goyf seems pretty damn good to me.

Brushwagg
11-26-2007, 07:49 PM
Mind Harness seems a little to narrow compared to Shackels. Shackels is reusable and doesn't have a Cumulative Upkeep. Plus Shackels can get creature of other colors. Yes sometimes they are played.

My feeling is Shackels should at least be a staple in the SB for this deck, and if the meta warrents it MD at least 2. Reason being that with almost no removal you need some that you can reuse, and other then Wasteland and Fetches every land is a Island.

@Counterbalance: I recently used it in a bigger tournament and found it to be alright. I would probaly go for at least 3 in the MD. You can proably get away with 2 Tops since you can cantrip until you find one.

Sigar
11-27-2007, 12:12 PM
Mind Harness was awesome all day. Stole so many Goyf, it's crazy.

Shackles is sooo slow in this deck, and you rarely have more than 3 lands anyway.

Brushwagg
11-27-2007, 08:17 PM
Shackles is sooo slow in this deck, and you rarely have more than 3 lands anyway.

That's funny because I've found Shackels to be really good. It's even good in the control match-up IE Landstill and MUC. I found that it pretty much can act like a one sided moat for you.

What I'm really saying is Mind Harness is just too narrow.

Sigar
11-28-2007, 06:18 AM
Have you tested it? It acts like a pseudo-StP and it's the best "removal" U/G has to offer.

FredMaster
12-07-2007, 04:25 AM
I plan to participate in a quite big Tournament called "Wintermercadiade".
What I exspect is tons of NQGs and Combo. Landstill is possible as well.
I first wanted to play the classic NQGr but I think it'd be smarter to play UG, because of the fact that it rapes its relatives.

Here the list that I'm testing:
// Lands
1 [UNH] Island
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [DIS] Breeding Pool

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [PS] Quirion Dryad

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LOR] Ponder
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [GP] Repeal
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle

What I don't know yet is, wether the Dryad will be better than a playset Werebears. I guess i'll have to find that out by testing.

DragoFireheart
12-28-2007, 03:56 PM
Has anyone thought of adding 2X of Garruk WildSpeaker? A planeswalker that could give you recurring 3/3s that also gets around Deeds and Wraths for removal?

You could build up a small army and then use his trample ability to plow through your opponent in late game.

thefreakaccident
01-01-2008, 02:27 PM
This randomly popped in my mind and I think it could be a pretty decent idea... the point it to take advantage of the largest creatures at our disposal...

Lands//19
3 wasteland
4 flooded strand
2 wooded foothills
4 tropical island
1 forest
2 island
2 breeding pool
1 lonely sandbar

12 creatures//
4 tarmogoyf
4 vinelasher kudzu
4 quirion dryad


4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 stifle
4 force of will
4 daze
2 life from the loam
3 exploration
4 serum visions

sieboard//
4 echoing truth
4 propaganda
4 tormod’s crypt
3 pithing needle


There are some odd choices here, but any ideas/thoughts would be awesome!!!

Waikiki
01-01-2008, 03:28 PM
with all the fetch 4 waste + 4 stifle why isn't this deck running Terravore ? it's a 3cc card for CB or is the GG too hard to get ?

Mister Agent
01-01-2008, 04:10 PM
with all the fetch 4 waste + 4 stifle why isn't this deck running Terravore ? it's a 3cc card for CB or is the GG too hard to get ?

Well getting the double green can be extremely difficult to obtain on a consistent basis in a metagame full of wastelands and stifles. However, I think Sea Drake would generally be awesome in UG threshold especially with mainboard counterbalances and tops.

raharu
01-01-2008, 06:46 PM
Sea Drake would be nice in thefreakaccident's build in place of Dryad.

@thefreakaccident: did the inspiration come from that UGw thresh not thresh thing that surfaced sometime ago (I think from spain)? It looks really nice, although I would like to see some (a?) manlands somewhere, and maybe 1 or 2 more cycle lands taking the total land count to something like 21-22 at the expense of one Sea Drake, a Serum Visions, and maybe another creature, but prolly not, leaving the land count at 21.

Adan
01-02-2008, 04:57 AM
I plan to participate in a quite big Tournament called "Wintermercadiade".
What I exspect is tons of NQGs and Combo. Landstill is possible as well.
I first wanted to play the classic NQGr but I think it'd be smarter to play UG, because of the fact that it rapes its relatives.

Here the list that I'm testing:
// Lands
1 [UNH] Island
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [DIS] Breeding Pool

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [PS] Quirion Dryad

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LOR] Ponder
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [GP] Repeal
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle

What I don't know yet is, wether the Dryad will be better than a playset Werebears. I guess i'll have to find that out by testing.

Werebears. They come in as 4/4s as long as you have Threshold. But I already considered Quirion Dryad a awful topdeck in the mid- and lategame where your handresources are already used up a littlebit, which let's her grow slower. You also run a higher permanentcount. If you wan to run Quirion Dryads, I would rather sugest the list of James King, replacing those Opts with Ponders and go with it. But Werebears are more solid. I would also replace the Repeals with Hydroblasts just in case a random Goblins appears and runs you over.

But the problem I see with UG threshold is, that it maybe beats it's relatives, but still dies to the decks that hate Threshold in general. And THOSE decks will also be there, but good luck!

FredMaster
01-02-2008, 09:34 AM
Wow... I changed my mind about the different ******** versions so many times within these vacations.
At the moment i am preparing my White Gro for the event, but we'll see.
:rolleyes:

Arsenal
02-28-2008, 12:30 PM
Nothing happening here? Has the 3color variants surpassed this variant? I'm just coming over to the "dark-side" and bought everything I needed to play Threshold. I wanted to use this version, as I like Stifle+Wasteland, and I like having a 2 color manabase. Any new developments.

FredMaster
02-28-2008, 03:40 PM
I guess if you like the Stifle+Wasteland idea you should go with the "Tempo Thresh/Thrash/Speed Thresh/whatever" kind of deck.
I can say from my expiriences with this deck, that it is just worse than almost any other version of the archetype.

So please try not to get persuaded by anyone to play this deck.

Brushwagg
02-28-2008, 09:58 PM
I guess if you like the Stifle+Wasteland idea you should go with the "Tempo Thresh/Thrash/Speed Thresh/whatever" kind of deck.
I can say from my expiriences with this deck, that it is just worse than almost any other version of the archetype.

So please try not to get persuaded by anyone to play this deck.


I wouldn't go that far. The problem is the lack of removale, so a meta where there are a good number of aggro decks this deck can/will have issues. But if you find yourself in a Gro, Control, or Combo meta then this deck can thrive.

gosumog
04-17-2008, 12:22 PM
just wanted to point out on the original post... the jits are probably for removing other jittes too =P

raharu
09-12-2008, 02:33 AM
So... are there any recent developments in the deck, or has UGr Thrash made it sub-optimal/ unviable?

Brehn
09-12-2008, 05:50 AM
Was it ever optimal/viable?

Shugyosha
09-12-2008, 06:16 AM
It still T8's here and there. Rarely though because very few people still play it. It's understandable as it looks weak on paper but is a work of elegance when you play it.

Still testing Snakeform as removal-cantrip and it fits the deck very well so far.

Omega
09-12-2008, 10:34 AM
The only weakness of UG, believe it to be the lack of good removal. Even a light splash of white to get access to white would make this deck infinitly better, i believe

Robert