[Discussion] Lorwyn

[Drkdstryer]

http://mtgsalvation.com/lorwyn-spoiler.html

Well, the leaks have started. Ostensibly, there is nothing interesting so far, except for this card...

Fodder Launch
:3::b:
Tribal Sorcery - Goblin
Uncommon
As an additional cost to play Fodder Launch, sacrifice a Goblin.
Target creature gets -5/-5 until end of turn. Fodder Launch deals 5 damage to that creature's controller.

The major reason to not play non-creatures in Goblins is because of weakening Ringleader. This kind of card works with Ringleader... and Matron... and Warchief.

Tribal cards could be all sorts of awesome.

[zulander]

Seems Galepowder Mage would be useful in angel stax/ u/w faerie stompy. The Elvish guy seems redic for t2 though. The picture looks just as gay as expected.

[Versus]

Interesting. I would have rather saw something like this though:




:3::b:
Tribal Sorcery - Zombie
Uncommon
As an additional cost to play Fodder Launch, sacrifice a Zombie.
Target creature gets -5/-5 until end of turn. Fodder Launch deals 5 damage to that creature's controller.




Creature - Elf Warrior 3G
Champion an Elf (When this comes into play, sacrifice it unless you remove another Elf you control from the game. When this leaves play, that card returns to play.)
2G: Put a 2/2 green Wolf creature token into play.
Each Wolf you control has deathtouch (When it deals damage to a creature, destroy that creature.)
Illus. Steve Prescott*


This card is amazing! Maybe not in Legacy, but you could power this out with mana accelerators then sac the Llanowar for a 5/5 that genrates 2/2s's (that kill ANYTHING they block) without tapping!

[Nihil Credo]

For some mysterious reason, I get the feeling that there is somewhere a narrow use for Fallowsage. Can't think of one yet, though.

The other new spoiled cards seem uninteresting. I doubt Fodder Launch is that much better than Goblin Grenade.

Edit: I just noticed that Galepowder Mage allows you to slide your opponents' creatures as well. That makes it much, much better.

[Versus]

Back to Wren's Run Packmaster (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=55593&d=1187737703) for a second.

B/G deck:

Turn 1: Forest > drop Elves of Deep Shadow

Turn 2: Forest > Tap EoDS for B play Ritual for BBB and tap a Forest for G > Sac the EoDS Drop Wren's > tap remaining forest for G > Rancor.

Turn 3: 7/5 Trampling elf that can now create 2/2 DT wolves this turn

Edit: Dubiously viable in Legacy of course and Standard has no Ritual. What kinda sick bastard takes Ritual out of the core set anyway?

[zulander]

Fallowsage's will be used in casual wizard decks, you know the ones that run patron wizard etc.. Tap a wizard, counter target spell and draw a card. Seems busted in casual. Or in a horrible version of Opposition.dec

And if wren's run packmaster's cost was only 2G for say a 3/3 or a 2/3 I'd put him in GAGOMY so fast it's not even funny.

[Elfrago]

I don't like the second ability of the packmaster. If I have a 5/5 monster I want to beat the crap out of my opponent with it, and not keep it in the back to make tokens.

[C.P.]

I don't like the second ability of the packmaster. If I have a 5/5 monster I want to beat the crap out of my opponent with it, and not keep it in the back to make tokens.

Dunno, we do have Cradles and Priestess to power it out. It is also fetchable via Poacher. Deranged hermit is better, but as 1 of, maybe.

[Atwa]

I don't like the second ability of the packmaster. If I have a 5/5 monster I want to beat the crap out of my opponent with it, and not keep it in the back to make tokens.

The thing is, you don't have to tap it, so you don't have to keep it in the back to make tokens.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

The thing is, you don't have to tap it, so you don't have to keep it in the back to make tokens.

Plus it kills Tarmogoyf and sticks around for the after-party. That's probably the biggest reason to give the tokens Deathtouch.

[Sims]

The thing is, you don't have to tap it, so you don't have to keep it in the back to make tokens.

Exactly. It's a 4 mana, 5/5 beater that makes wolf tokens. Yeah, Deathtouch is nice to keep on the wolves, but why not just beat face since you don't need to tap him. If he gets removed through combat or something, fine, go get another one. Plus, they're not legendary, so they won't really suck in multiples either.

[TheCramp]

Speaking of B/G elves, this cat interacts with deed well. elf, into deed, champion your elf, bust deed for less than 4, swing. when they solve your fatty, get elf back. Seems decent to me. All in all I like the card.

[Versus]

Exactly, no one said you HAVE to make wolf tokens with it, but if you have the mana around (Cradles will help here imensely) then what the hell right? Still, for another 4 mana you can have a 4/2 Wolf with Rancor on the next turn if all else fails and beat for 11!

I'm a huge sucker for cards like this. Deranged Hermit is one of my all time casul play faves and this is in the same vein. Also, since Tribal is coming back, who knows what else green will throw at us to compliment the whole thing.

[Sims]

Well think of it this way as well; While slightly worse as it is targetable and must Champion an elf, it's esentially a Blastoderm with 2 other relevent abilities. If it's unanswered I can see this guy ending a game between being an efficient beater (5/5 for 4 isn't as good as 4/5 for 2, obviously, but he'll live through a 4/5 Goyf) that is a reusable token generator. He's not the end-all green card, but I do think he's a very solid addition to casual elf decks or some type of Trinity/Rock deck.

I would say I'd play him in my casual Stupid Green.dec, but I think bouncing and replaying Derranged hermit is a better play than this guy in that deck.

[Lego]

For some mysterious reason, I get the feeling that there is somewhere a narrow use for Fallowsage. Can't think of one yet, though.

Throw some Quicksilver Dagger on that guy, draw an extra two a turn. And open yourself up to a two-for one. Plus, at the point you're already paying more than Arcanis.


The other new spoiled cards seem uninteresting. I doubt Fodder Launch is that much better than Goblin Grenade.

You noticed that it's a Goblin, right? So it costs less with Warchief, and works with Matron and Ringleader. That doesn't make it particularly good, but we can hope for more of these things. Or maybe we should hope for no more of these things, at least as far as Goblins is concerned :)

[zulander]

4 mana right now is a lot for something that doesn't win the game. Mystic enforcers and fledgling dragons are great because they will win you the game and because their colors have enough control to make sure they can last that long. If this guy was blue he'd be one of the top creatures in the format, unfortunately though green isn't good enough to make sure the game stays at a pace it can keep up with for this guys abilities to be effective.

[Barook]

In the beginning, i liked the elf. But as someone else pointed out, it can be easily 2-for-1 for your opponent as long as you control only a single elf, especially in Legacy which is a format prepared to deal with Lackey.

[Atwa]

In the beginning, i liked the elf. But as someone else pointed out, it can be easily 2-for-1 for your opponent as long as you control only a single elf, especially in Legacy which is a format prepared to deal with Lackey.

2 for 1? You get the championed elf back when he dies.

[Barook]

2 for 1? You get the championed elf back when he dies.


In the beginning, i liked the elf. But as someone else pointed out, it can be easily 2-for-1 for your opponent as long as you control only a single elf, especially in Legacy which is a format prepared to deal with Lackey.

Let's say the only elf you control is a Llanowar Elf, you play the Champion, your opponent responds with killing your elf. Now you can't sac an elf and the Champion dies as well.

Btw, "Champion a something" sounds utterly retarted.

[Tacosnape]

2 for 1? You get the championed elf back when he dies.

Not if they kill your only elf before the Packmaster resolves. This guy has to be in a pretty dedicated Elf deck.

Also, for what it's worth, this could very easily be a combo card. If you can somehow get two Wren's Run Packmasters into play either simultaneously or the second one before the first's trigger resolves, they can Champion each other infinitely, causing either a large Elvish Vanguard or a ton of insects with Wirewood Hivemaster.

[Pinder]

Gotta love how they start printing noncreature cards with creature types right after they stop printing slivers. I wonder how a sorcery with Shroud (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=5134) would work? But of course they don't think of the greatest Tribe ever when they're making the next tribal block. Thanks Wizards!

</rant>


Anyway, that Elf looks re-frickin'-donkulous. I mean, what are the odds that you won't have a Llanowar Elves of something by the time you power this out (probably using that selfsame Llanowar Elves) in some sort of Trinity or Elves! build? And an ability that makes deathtouching wolves that doesn't cause it to tap? A single Priest of Titania or Gaea's Cradle activation could net you 2-3 2/2 deathtouchers. Oh yeah, and it's a 4 mana 5/5. Forgot that part. I'm not sure how viable this will be in any sort of elf deck in Legacy, but I can see this thing being awesome in Standard/Block or something. Oh, and it's the Prerelease Foil. Nice.

Also, how lame is 'Champion an Elf'?

The Fallowsage dude looks like he would be some fun in a casual Patron Wizard/Opposition sort of thing., but not really useful outside of that.

And Mr. Galepowder? "Hi, I'm a creature that removes a relevant blocker every time I attack. Too bad I cost 4."

edit: He is a 3/3 flyer, though, so maybe 4 isn't too bad.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I wonder how a sorcery with Shroud (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=5134) would work?You could also get a sorcery with flash (http://magiccards.info/le/en/136.html) or lifelink (http://magiccards.info/tsts/en/8.html).


Also, how lame is 'Champion an Elf'?I like the flavour of Offering more. How the hell do you "champion" something?

[Jak]

I think that elf would be crazy in a trinity green style deck. Something like...

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
14 Forest

4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Rofellos

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Null Rod

4 Wren's
3 Masticore
4 Deranged Hermit
4 Call of the Herd
2 Iwamori

Maybe?

[Versus]

Taco: I was thinking about that on the way home "Champion" a Packmaster for another Packmaster and things can get very interesting.

I can't recall if there are any CIP effects for elves, but that would viable here as well. Not to mention, taking the above example you could WoG while this is in play and when the Championed Packmaster comes back you'll have a clear board with a 5/5 pointing in your opps. direction

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Packmaster + Packmaster + Soul Warden = Project X post rotation.

Last time I checked, standard players love holding on to decks for too long.

[TrialByFire]

that card looks like it going to be a house. remind me to get 4 at the prerelease

[TheCramp]

Back to the goblin bomb. Does anyone else love how BAD this is at killing Tarmogoyf. It's tribal... ha ha. Pesky 4/5 tarmogoyf killing you, need an out? how about a card that single handedly puts 3 card types into the yard for not getting the job done. Woot! Fodder Launch FTL.

[Pinder]

How about a card that single handedly puts 3 card types into the yard for not getting the job done. Woot! Fodder Launch FTL.

2 things:

1. It only puts 2 types of cards into the yard, Tribal and Sorcery. Just because it has a creature type doesn't mean it's a creature. Tarmogoyf only looks at supertypes, not subtypes.

2. If Tarmogoyf is already a 4/5, odds are there's already going to be a sorcery in the graveyard, so fodder Launch is likely only giving Tarmogoyf a possible extra +1/+1, not +3/+3 like you were thinking. Of course, -4/-4 isn't really enough to kill a 4/5 Tarmogoyf anyway (or rather, -5/-5 isn't enough to kill their new 5/6 Tarmogoyf), so your point still stands (if rather shakily).

edit: That does raise an interesting point, though. Since the 'Tribal' type is just tacked on to other card types, that means that any Tribal card in a graveyard is always going to contribute 2 P/T to Tarmogoyf. Sweet Jesus, where will it end?

[FoolofaTook]

edit: That does raise an interesting point, though. Since the 'Tribal' type is just tacked on to other card types, that means that any Tribal card in a graveyard is always going to contribute 2 P/T to Tarmogoyf. Sweet Jesus, where will it end?

With everybody finding a way to fit Tarmogoyf into their deck if they are running any creatures at all.

This is already happening in my meta. Every deck that people are testing has Tarmogoyf in it. Combo is so absent at this point, except in decks with a red splash that sideboard in EtW, that it's becoming dangerous to go down to the local card shop and play. Too easy to pretend combo actually doesn't exist any more and build decks fatally flawed against it.

I should also say at this point that Tarmogoyf will fit in most of the belcher variants and I'm expecting somebody to use him as an alternate win condition coming out of the sideboard in the same way that Phyrexian Negator was used as an alternate win condition in some of the Flash-Hulk decks.

[Tacosnape]

Well, I mean, we've already got decks like Goyf Threshold, Deadgoyf Ale, Survival of the Goyfest, and now, thanks to Mad Zur, Goyfalid Breakfast.

And now Tribal and Planeswalker cards are going to make it more ridiculous.

So it probably won't end until we have decks like Eight-Nine (Yes, Tarmogoyf will have the potential to reach that), Goyf Stax, Goyfbelcher, Goyfchantress, Vial Goyflins, Goyfstill, Goyf from the Loam, Faergoyf Stompy, Goyf-Pox, Goyf Confinement, 8-Land Goyfstompy, some deck built to abuse Tarmogoyf/Clone/Vesuvan Shapeshifer/Dance of Many, and the Dave Gearhart classic, Goyfidarity.

EDIT: And Ichgoyfrid.

[gnurbel2000]

2 things:

1. It only puts 2 types of cards into the yard, Tribal and Sorcery. Just because it has a creature type doesn't mean it's a creature. Tarmogoyf only looks at supertypes, not subtypes.


It puts 3 card types into the graveyard, Tribal and Sorcery on the card itself.
And most likely Creature - Goblin as part of its cost.

[TrialByFire]

Well, I mean, we've already got decks like Goyf Threshold, Deadgoyf Ale, Survival of the Goyfest, and now, thanks to Mad Zur, Goyfalid Breakfast.

And now Tribal and Planeswalker cards are going to make it more ridiculous.

So it probably won't end until we have decks like Eight-Nine (Yes, Tarmogoyf will have the potential to reach that), Goyf Stax, Goyfbelcher, Goyfchantress, Vial Goyflins, Goyfstill, Goyf from the Loam, Faergoyf Stompy, Goyf-Pox, Goyf Confinement, 8-Land Goyfstompy, some deck built to abuse Tarmogoyf/Clone/Vesuvan Shapeshifer/Dance of Many, and the Dave Gearhart classic, Goyfidarity.

EDIT: And Ichgoyfrid.

Roflmao!

Goyfalid Breakfast, Red Deadgoyf, GES, 42landand4goyf.dec, etc

[Silverdragon]

1. It only puts 2 types of cards into the yard, Tribal and Sorcery. Just because it has a creature type doesn't mean it's a creature. Tarmogoyf only looks at supertypes, not subtypes.



You have to sacrifice a Goblin when you play Fodder Launch so there will indeed be 3 card types. 2 from the Tribal Sorcery plus 1 from your Creature - Goblin. Also if I'm reading the Packmaster right you need 3 of them to go infinite.

edit: too slow... gnurbel2000 was faster :)

btw. Goyf Game and Ill-Gotten-Goyf-y Pop

[gnurbel2000]

Thunder Goyf!!!

[TrialByFire]

Does anyone else realize when you attack with Fallowsage, you draw a card? Not great in Legacy, but could be decent in Standard and pretty good in Limited.

Also, if the championed card has CIP or leaves play abilities (you bet your ass they will have elves that do something) it will be reminiscent of Momentary Blink

[Amon Amarth]

I really like the champion ability. Now if they could amke good Goblins with that ability

[Pinder]

You have to sacrifice a Goblin when you play Fodder Launch so there will indeed be 3 card types. 2 from the Tribal Sorcery plus 1 from your Creature - Goblin. Also if I'm reading the Packmaster right you need 3 of them to go infinite.


Eep. You're right. I was thinking of just the card itself, not the critter you had to sac. I guess it really does suck.


edit: And you forgot GoyfHooks.

[Bane of the Living]

I really like the champion ability. Now if they could amke good Goblins with that ability

Holy shit can you imagine triggering Lackey and championing him into some vicious psychotic beast?

I also wonder, if you trigger lackey could you put a Goblin enchantment, artifact, or land into play??

Did anyone else notice Fodder Launch allows us to win around Engineered Plague pretty freaking easily? Matron cip tutor for FL, sac Pile take 5! Vial out Ringleader, find FL, attack for one and take 5!

I see this as playable, Im gonna start playtesting it.

[deathsorcerer]

Not if they kill your only elf before the Packmaster resolves. This guy has to be in a pretty dedicated Elf deck.

Also, for what it's worth, this could very easily be a combo card. If you can somehow get two Wren's Run Packmasters into play either simultaneously or the second one before the first's trigger resolves, they can Champion each other infinitely, causing either a large Elvish Vanguard or a ton of insects with Wirewood Hivemaster.
Tooth and Nail? But is this better than any other possible win conditions for elf and nail.

EDIT: Can this actually work though? Both come in so the triggers stack. The first trigger resolves removing the second wren putting the leaves play trigger on the stack. The leaves play trigger fizzles. The second come into play trigger resolves removing the first wren triggering the leaves play trigger. The second wren comes back into play but isn't the first wren already gone?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I also wonder, if you trigger lackey could you put a Goblin enchantment, artifact, or land into play??
Whenever Goblin Lackey deals damage to a player, you may put a Goblin permanent card from your hand into play.It can now.

[Aggro_zombies]

...Goyf Stax...
You know, it's funny that you should mention this, because yesterday I made a green Stax deck just so I could put Goyf in Stax and see what happens. It sucked balls, except for the Goyfs.

[Happy Gilmore]

Packmaster + Packmaster + Soul Warden = Project X post rotation.

Last time I checked, standard players love holding on to decks for too long.

How bout the fact that there is a green soul Warden, Packmaster, and Summoners Pact all in T2?

I might be wrong and I am too tired to go through it but I think you need 3x packmaster + Soul Warden to make a loop.

[Pinder]

how bout the fact that there is a green soul Warden, Packmaster, and Summoners Pact all in T2?

Wow. TSP/LOR Standard might just be the standard I'd actually like to play in...

[Sanguine Voyeur]

How bout the fact that there is a green soul Warden, Packmaster, and Summoners Pact all in T2?Essence Warden is what I meant. It's also an elf, so you can play Warden, play Packmaster, then play the other pack master to "win."
I might be wrong and I am too tired to go through it but I think you need 3x packmaster + Soul Warden to make a loop.You're right, it's just like Faceless Butcher.

[Rastadon]

This has been already said, but how is Wren's Run Packmaster fair? In legacy we have we win too early or have goyf, but doesn't this card violate the whole p/t to mana ratio? Championing an elf is hardly a downside, especially when you use llanowar to power this thing out. If the whole four mana for a 5/5 with no downside wasn't pushing boundaries enough, they allow you to sink mana into it to make wolves (in the color that's got mana in the bag), AND allows you to dominate ground aggro with deathtouch.

Even if you kill it the wolves are still around, without deathtouch admitedly, and your first elf comes back.

Damn, in between this and Tarmogoyf wotc is giving green some new toys.

[Tacosnape]

Yeah, you do need a third Packmaster for the loop. My bad. Oh well. I'm sure all the people that were going to make Packmaster Defense of the Heart a tier 1 deck are disappointed.

EDIT: I'm all about this Deathtouch shit lately. Thornweald Archer is an incredibly underrated little badass, and now a deathtouch wolf generator. Whee!

[Versus]

I deffinately want to see if any Zombie elves are made just for the fun of it. Either way this with G/B and all sorts of mana eccel (Ritual FTW) are going to be crazy here. Even if the Packmaster were :2: GG it's great, but being :3: G makes it totally splashable. You could even get away with using Boreal Druid's over Llanowars. Not that you wouldn't want to go mostly green anyway, just saying it's possible.

Eladamri, Lord of Leaves could get a reprise here, Rofellos for even more wolf making mana and Eladamri's Vineyard for GG each turn that buys you 2/3 of a wolf.

I think I may just go to the pre-release four times!

[Lego]

What happens if two Packmasters come into play at the same time and target each other?

[zulander]

What happens if two Packmasters come into play at the same time and target each other?

Let's say you play tooth and nail and put both into play simultaneously.

Creature - Elf Warrior Rare
Champion an Elf (When this comes into play, sacrifice it unless you remove another Elf you control from the game. When this leaves play, that card returns to play.)

Both come into play and trigger. We'll use P1 and P2 for packmaster 1 and packmaster 2. The active player puts the triggers on the stack, p1 first then p2. P2's trigger resolves and p2 must champion an elf, if no other elves are in play you must champion p1. p2 resolves and is in play, p1's Cip trigger now resolves, since the only elf you have is p2 it must remove p2 from the game. P2 is now RFG, triggering it's leave play condition. It brings P1 back into play, once p1 comes into play since p2 is now RFG you have no elves in play to champion, you must sacrifice it. Once it's removed from play it's remove from play trigger triggers, bringing back p2 which has no elf to champion, which means it dies.

I'm pretty sure that's how it works. I believe you need three packmasters to create an infinite loop. Pretty good with soul warden and other things that trigger with creature cip effects. , alhtough since soul warden is also an elf you will need a way to win otherwise you'll have to champion it at a point to move on with the game.

[Silverdragon]

Let's say you play tooth and nail and put both into play simultaneously.

Creature - Elf Warrior Rare
Champion an Elf (When this comes into play, sacrifice it unless you remove another Elf you control from the game. When this leaves play, that card returns to play.)

Both come into play and trigger. We'll use P1 and P2 for packmaster 1 and packmaster 2. The active player puts the triggers on the stack, p1 first then p2. P2's trigger resolves and p2 must champion an elf, if no other elves are in play you must champion p1. p2 resolves and is in play, p1's Cip trigger now resolves, since the only elf you have is p2 it must remove p2 from the game. P2 is now RFG, triggering it's leave play condition. It brings P1 back into play, once p1 comes into play since p2 is now RFG you have no elves in play to champion, you must sacrifice it. Once it's removed from play it's remove from play trigger triggers, bringing back p2 which has no elf to champion, which means it dies.

I'm pretty sure that's how it works. I believe you need three packmasters to create an infinite loop. Pretty good with soul warden and other things that trigger with creature cip effects. , alhtough since soul warden is also an elf you will need a way to win otherwise you'll have to champion it at a point to move on with the game.

Yep that's exactly what happens. You explained it really well.

[Nihil Credo]

Let's say you play tooth and nail and put both into play simultaneously.

Creature - Elf Warrior Rare
Champion an Elf (When this comes into play, sacrifice it unless you remove another Elf you control from the game. When this leaves play, that card returns to play.)

Both come into play and trigger. We'll use P1 and P2 for packmaster 1 and packmaster 2. The active player puts the triggers on the stack, p1 first then p2. P2's trigger resolves and p2 must champion an elf, if no other elves are in play you must champion p1. p2 resolves and is in play, p1's Cip trigger now resolves, since the only elf you have is p2 it must remove p2 from the game. P2 is now RFG, triggering it's leave play condition. It brings P1 back into play, once p1 comes into play since p2 is now RFG you have no elves in play to champion, you must sacrifice it. Once it's removed from play it's remove from play trigger triggers, bringing back p2 which has no elf to champion, which means it dies.

Actually, as worded, it can work differently. The Packmaster trigger does not force you to RFG another Elf - it's just that if you don't, the Packmaster is sacrificed.

Let us assume that when resolving P2's trigger you choose to RFG P1 (because doing otherwise would just result in a double sacrifice). Then, when P1's trigger resolves, you can choose not to Champion P2 and instead sacrifice P1; since P1 is not in play, the sacrifice clause does nothing, so you end up with P2 safely in play.

(If P2 dies later, and you have no other Elves in play, then P1 will come back, look at the empty board, and promptly commit suicide out of loneliness.)

[Happy Gilmore]

Foodchain elves anyone?

Sylvan Messenger, Foodchain, plus the new guy is a sick card drawing engine + it has a built in win condition.

[zulander]

Actually, as worded, it can work differently. The Packmaster trigger does not force you to RFG another Elf - it's just that if you don't, the Packmaster is sacrificed.

Ah ok, I thought that unless it says you may then you have to. If it said when it comes into play champion an elf, if you cannot then sac packmaster then the ruling I wrote would take effect. RTFC ftw?

[Nihil Credo]

Yep. It's worth noting that what I wrote only applies if either 1) both Packmasters enter play at the same time; or 2) an effect lets you put Packmasters into play at instant speed. Otherwise, double Packmaster is a dead draw without another Elf in play.

[zulander]

Yep. It's worth noting that what I wrote only applies if either 1) both Packmasters enter play at the same time; or 2) an effect lets you put Packmasters into play at instant speed. Otherwise, double Packmaster is a dead draw without another Elf in play.
Like aether vile and phy. dreadnought.

[Lone Signal]

Evokes and Champions seems like there's going to be something very good for Survival. Ones revealed already looks pretty testable.

[Tacosnape]

Evokes and Champions seems like there's going to be something very good for Survival. Ones revealed already looks pretty testable.

More likely something moderately good. I can't see these two things alone propelling Survival much higher than it already is.

Shriekmaw will be a godsend against the Tarmat*, though.

*(Tarmat = Portmanteau of Tarmogoyf and Format, which is what Legacy currently is.)

[LGD]

Depends on the evoke effects I think. Champions are probably not amazing but if the evoke effects are strong enough (and I very much doubt they are) then there is probably some potential to push Survival over the top. If survival tutored for fairly costed (or rather unfairly costed) sorceries on top of creatures it'd probably be a good deal more viable. Unfortunately chances are extremely high that most evoke effects will be underpowered and even if they weren't you'd still be fighting against the Survival deck's inherent limiting factors. You're quite probably right that it'll only have mildly positive effects (and that Shriekmaw is already a far better contribution to the deck than most sets manage to generate) but the potential is certainly there.

[Volt]

*(Tarmat = Portmanteau of Tarmogoyf and Format, which is what Legacy currently is.)

Some number of lesbian points are coming your way for the usage of the word "portmanteau." I'll get back to you.

[Di]

Some number of lesbian points are coming your way for the usage of the word "portmanteau." I'll get back to you.

I was thinking the same thing after I read his post.

Also, it seems this Shriekmaw is totally going to be the saviour for the Tarmat, at least for this set.

[Lone Signal]

Planeswalker revealed.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=87453

But we still don't know for sure what it actually does.

====================================

Liliana Vess
3BB
Planeswalker - Liliana

+1: Target player discards a card.
-2: Search your library for a card, then shuffle your library and put that card on top of it.
-8: Put all creature cards in all graveyards into play under your control.

5

====================================

From glancing, most would guess the function to be that it comes into play with 5 counters or whatever, and you are able to use one of her three abilities per turn that affect the number of counters she has.

Well, looks fun. Let's see how these work out in play.

[Nihil Credo]

Assuming the "play only one ability per turn" hypothesis is correct (and I can't think of another sensible way to balance the first ability), this makes an interesting addition to Black Landstill, Train Wreck, or Truffle Shuffle. Its abilities aren't bad, but more interestingly it's unaffected by creature sweeper, Deed included.

The planeswalker frame looks cool as hell, though. I especially love the futureshifted-style full art.

[Elfrago]

Strong, but painfully slow.
Also it can be attacked and killed by your opponent creatures.So you will have to protect her.
It's a great card for control decks, but almost useless for aggro & combo.
The other 4 Planeswalker could be cheaper, and useful for non-control decks.

[Peter_Rotten]

Could we have a link to Planeswalker rules? Anyone?

[Belgareth]

You can't I'm afraid as they are not public yet.
All that's public is the fact that they can be attacked and that your creatures can block to stop this.
The 5 is loyalty and is the "currency" for the abilities.
It is assmed that you may only use 1 ability a turn at sorcery speed , but again this isn't confirmed.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

At least Vindicate still hits it.

I can't mention enough how glad I am that Wizards is finally starting to learn it's lesson about making things free and not making these Vanguard.

[Happy Gilmore]

My only question is this:

Can it be reanimated? If so I've already found a deck to put her in.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

My only question is this:

Can it be reanimated? If so I've already found a deck to put her in.Not unless they print something that returns planeswalkers specifically, they're not creatures.

[Peter_Rotten]

So with an opponent's Planeswalker in play, I will have a choice of directing my attack at the Planeswalker or the opponent?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

So with an opponent's Planeswalker in play, I will have a choice of directing my attack at the Planeswalker or the opponent?

Correct. Think of it as summoning another player. Albeit a less flexible one.

[Versus]

Someone mentioned that you could use the +1 ability 3 times to get her up to an 8 loyalty then have -8 to reanimate the cards you just threw out previously. That seems feasable. However, it says "TARGET" player discards a card. If that is giving her loyalty a +1 everytime, there is absolutely zero drawback to the player controling her. Basically a mini-hymn every turn. That could turn out to be very useful...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It would seem logical to assume that there's some time limitation or tapping involved, as otherwise you could simply use the discard ability infi times. Assuming once a turn makes more sense; then you have to save up for several turns of discard to use her big abiltiy.

[TheCramp]

It will be interesting to see what the Green and Blue ones do. (You know, Tarmogoyf's colors...)

[Versus]

It will be interesting to see what the Green and Blue ones do. (You know, Tarmogoyf's colors...)

If it's soild, it might as well say: "Target player picks deck off table and walks away with his feeling hurt.":wink:

TheInfamousBearAssassin : That's what I'm figuring. Anything else would be ridiculous. Playing heavy disruption and discard then dropping this down on the table would be murder. If these abilities can be used at instant speeds even more so.

Either way I wonder if Loyalty (or whatever that 5 means) has a maximum number?

[zulander]

Do you see how they made this a full art card with a see through text box? That's what I'd like to see from here on out in the future on everything.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Something else about the art; the head goes above the name on the frame.

[Versus]

Yup, the only other time I recall that happening was on Unglued cards.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Oh, there will certainly be a once-a-turn limit; otherwise, you could use the abilities an infinite number of times (that is, pump to 100 000, then use the -8 once, then... you get the picture). Looks pretty cool, though. Will certainly add a whole new aspect to the game; the only question, really, is how much of an impact these will have on the eternal formats. Very interesting, pretty cool. More developed than Tribal, IMO, which is cool (don't get me wrong; love tribal, but it's just an extra word attached to existing card types).

[Bahamuth]

Not only does her head go trough the top, you can also see het legs in the Text Box.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I think the black planeswalker is too slow for Legacy, five mana for half a Mind Rot or Vampiric Tutor. Living Death cost five and doesn't take four turns to activate.

[Shugyosha]

Man I "dislike" planeswalkers already. It has Kiddie-magic printed all over it. Liliana Vess = A Villainess, head sticks out, another new card frame... Wizards is introducing far too many entirely new concepts and card frames to the game lately.

With Liliana you can (in theory):

First turn swamp, Ritual, Ritual, Liliana, discard real big monster
Second turn discard real big monster
Third turn discard real big monster
Fourth turn attack with some real big monsters killing the opponent

Its still bad and as they most likely will be legendary, I guess (and I hope) they suck in Legacy. Unless there are some really good support cards for them.

[TrialByFire]

interesting. im anxious to see the others and how these exactly work

[lolosoon]

Holy crap !! Vanguard will be playable soon in Legacy ?!

I mean, seriously... There's something dreadful in this new "Planeswalker" type and mechanic...

Bbrrr......

[Di]

It feels like they're turning Magic into Yu-Gi-Oh the way this thing looks. Uck. Hopefully the cards are actually going to be good otherwise this is the gayest thing to hit Magic since the new card face.

[Shugyosha]

It feels like they're turning Magic into Yu-Gi-Oh the way this thing looks. Uck. Hopefully the cards are actually going to be good otherwise this is the gayest thing to hit Magic since the new card face.

I think its aimed more in the direction of World of Warcraft TCG than Yu-Gi-Oh.

Now, it also fits into the scheme that Wizards did Vindicate as Judge promo and reprinted Pithing Needle. Two cards that seem to be the strongest pre-Lorwyn anti-planeswalker cards.

[Tacosnape]

Don't forget how ridiculously good Duress will be against Planeswalkers.


I think the black planeswalker is too slow for Legacy, five mana for half a Mind Rot or Vampiric Tutor. Living Death cost five and doesn't take four turns to activate.

The ability isn't Living Death. It's Living Death that gives you both sets of creatures. In other words, it's game.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

The ability isn't Living Death. It's Living Death that gives you both sets of creatures. In other words, it's game.I was close enough. It's still to small of an effect for witch to speculatively wait four turns.

[Nightmare]

The ability isn't Living Death. It's Living Death that gives you both sets of creatures. In other words, it's game.
Living Death + Insurrection. As if they weren't both limited bombs in their own right, let's put them together! Hey, why not throw in a Duress every turn, too?

[T_B]

I must say, I am quite unhappy with the Idea of Plainswalkers. I truely hope they all suck. I mean, sure, this one does not appear to be very good. I think there acually going to try to put The Spoils out because they have nearly identical things.

Uhhg.

[Peter_Rotten]

Do you think that it would be safe to assume mana "cheaters" like Eureka and Show and Tell will NOT be errated to include Planeswalker?

[Versus]

I'm waiting for the white one to read

+1: Put a 1/1 White knight token into play with protection from black

-2: Remove Target creature from the game it's owner gains life equal to its power.

-8: Destroy all opponents creatures

I suppose we can derive what the other 4 will do based on this one.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Do you think that it would be safe to assume mana "cheaters" like Eureka and Show and Tell will NOT be errated to include Planeswalker?It probably won't, part of there hypocritical policy on errata is to maintain original function.
I'm waiting for the white one to read

+1: Put a 1/1 White knight token into play with protection from black

-2: Remove Target creature from the game it's owner gains life equal to its power.

-8: Destroy all opponents creatures

I suppose we can derive what the other 4 will do based on this one.That last ability isn't very white. Plague Wind is black, Wrath is white.

[Versus]

It probably won't, part of there hypocritical policy on errata is to maintain original function.That last ability isn't very white. Plague Wind is black, Wrath is white.


Yeah, I don't why I typed that! I meant it to be WoG.

[Di]

It probably won't, part of there hypocritical policy on errata is to maintain original function.

However it seems to be a different case considering an entirely new cardtype has just been introduced. The original function of cards like Eureka and Show and Tell is to have the ability to put any permanent from your hand into play. It just seems strange to exclude Planeswalkers from this just because they are a new permament type.

[Happy Gilmore]

Do you think that it would be safe to assume mana "cheaters" like Eureka and Show and Tell will NOT be errated to include Planeswalker?

Lilana Vess has good synergy with the deck that would use Eureka and Show and Tell anyway. Ie. big fat.

Assuming you can use one ability a turn at sorcery speed, she really isn't all that bad. Your creatures have to do atleast 6 damage to her (assuming thats how it works). Thats not easy if you've been controling the board in the early turns. And if I'm not mistaken she lives through Damnation and Wrath of God. She will be the utter rediculous in Std mono black control.

[Barook]

I think it's funny how Wizards said that Planeswalkers enable creatureless/creature-light decks in Standard, yet the only way to protect your Planeswalkers (besides tons of removal) is blocking their attackers with your creatures.

Way to go, Wizards.

[Tacosnape]

I think it's funny how Wizards said that Planeswalkers enable creatureless/creature-light decks in Standard, yet the only way to protect your Planeswalkers (besides tons of removal) is blocking their attackers with your creatures.

Way to go, Wizards.

This isn't true. Killing all of your opponent's creatures is a similarly viable strategy.
.

[Nihil Credo]

I don't remember where Wizards claimed that, but they weren't wrong if they did. They're basically a win condition that is unaffected by any amount of mass sweepers you can run (lots of removal is the default for Standard control decks).

Also worthy of note is that Standard has manlands and Crucible of Worlds. That's an infinite blocker for your Planeswalker if you need it, and an alternate win condition if the Planeswalkers get killed or (for Liliana) there's nothing to steal in your opponent's graveyard.

[Tacosnape]

I'm glad I own enough Forces, Duresses, Therapies, and Pithing Needles to not have to worry excessively about the lameness that is this concept.

[technogeek5000]

I like liliana. I think it may find its way into black stax. Being able to grab lock pieces every turn plus a solid win condition in addition to the discard will atleast make me test it.

[Pinder]

My guesses:

1. Each ability will only be able to be used once per turn, sorcery speed. You can probably use more than one of the abilities per turn, though.

2. That 5 in the lower corner is probably the health/loyalty/whatever that it starts out with. The values on the abilities are how much the value increases/decreases when you use the ability. This is probably also the same value that changes when your planeswalker is dealt damage from a creature, too. In fact, that makes a sort of poetic sense, in a way. Whenever you do something fun for Liliana (i.e., discard), she becomes more loyal to you, but everytime you make her do work (going and fetching things for you, reanimating creatures for you), she gets less loyal. This would also make sense as a sort of health gague, as ordinary creatures probably can't really deal damage to a planeswalker (I mean, come on), but the more stuff starts to attack her the less loyal she is to you, and eventually she just goes away (to your graveyard, or something).

3. Planeswalkers will probably follow a similar, if not the same rule as legendary creatures for handling multiples.

So yeah, basically what everyone else said.

I do think it's kind of stupid, though, that something like Vindicate can kill a Planeswalker, but for some reason Wrath of God or Pernicious Deed can't.

[zulander]

I'm not all that excited about adding new card types, it gives me the irking feeling that R&D are running out of solid ideas for cards and that the game is starting to slip.

[Lone Signal]

I'm not all that excited about adding new card types, it gives me the irking feeling that R&D are running out of solid ideas for cards and that the game is starting to slip.Doesn't make much sense to me. This is their way of putting out 'new idea for a card.' I suppose they could've made similar cards as an Enchantment or something, but I don't see how the new card type as it is = slippage.

[Citrus-God]

I hope the White one has a Orim's Chant-esque effect.

[mikekelley]

Good God that card frame is hideous.


Ughhh.

[Jak]

Yeah. I hate how they keep changing it. It just makes decks look bad with old and new borders. The 8th edition ones were okay, but these and futuresights are just shit. I hope they make no good cards with this border because I hate seeing goyf so much. Any more would hurt my eyes.

[Barook]

I do think it's kind of stupid, though, that something like Vindicate can kill a Planeswalker, but for some reason Wrath of God or Pernicious Deed can't.

Actually, in this case, it does make sense in terms of flavor, at least more than being killed by a dual-wielding BoP:

WoG is basically a neutron bomb, while Deed is a nuke on planar level.

Vindicate, however, killed Yawgmoth, the strongest motherfucker in the history of Magic. Even dropping the Null Moon on Yawgmoth wasn't able to stop him.

[TheCramp]

I think that it is an interesting development. I will reserve judgment till I see the whole set. I suspect that I will dislike the tribal element of the set far more than Planeswalkers. I know nothing of Yugio or the w.o.w. card game, but if magic steals elements from those games, but does it better, I see no negative there. Anything that introduces more choices into the game, and people think is fun, is a good thing. The Sw:ccg did a lot of this, likely over did it, but I thought it was positive for the most part. The game ended up being too complex, hard for children to play, and the license was pulled, but the ideas were interesting.

I hope that planeswalkers do enter into the legacy metagame, and vintage as well, on some level. I worry that this won't happen, because the cards from new sets that seem to be relevant are ones that support established decks, and the ones which could enable new approaches are mostly to costly to have any impact. Loam being the one exception to pop into my mind. At any rate, they are never 5 drops.

One major question I have is, are they spells? I see they have costs, but conceptually they are not spells. They cast spells. As such, perhaps you cannot counterspell them. If this is true, they will shake things up. I think it may be, because why should any one color have unique resistance against them?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

As far as the cardframe is concerned, I like it, myself. Gives more room for the art, and having art not limited by the square boundaries is, in my opinion, much nicer than art that stops within the boundaries for some magical reason. Besides, it works especially well with the Planeswalkers because it's as though they'Re popping out of the card and into life; much more flavourful that way.

[bigbear102]

This would also make sense as a sort of health gague, as ordinary creatures probably can't really deal damage to a planeswalker (I mean, come on), but the more stuff starts to attack her the less loyal she is to you, and eventually she just goes away (to your graveyard, or something).



Umm... last I checked a lot of decks win the game by attacking with creatures and dealing damage to the opposing Planeswalker.... aka the opponent. It would actually make less sense if creatures couldn't deal damage to Planeswalkers, that would make them MORE powerful than the player himself.

[diffy]

Just in case you missed it, the full spoiler for Lorwyn has been revealed...

White Cards (http://www.magiclampoon.com/lorwyn/white.html)
Blue Cards (http://www.magiclampoon.com/lorwyn/blue.html)
Black Cards (http://www.magiclampoon.com/lorwyn/black.html)
Red Cards (http://www.magiclampoon.com/lorwyn/red.html)
Green Cards (http://www.magiclampoon.com/lorwyn/green.html)
Gold Cards (http://www.magiclampoon.com/lorwyn/gold.html)
Artifacts (http://www.magiclampoon.com/lorwyn/artifact.html)
Lands (http://www.magiclampoon.com/lorwyn/land.html)

I think some of the cards do have a pretty interesting design and do offer some potential for Eternal play.

Lorwyn will be totally awesome! :wink:

[zulander]

Just in case you missed it, the full spoiler for Lorwyn has been revealed...

White Cards (http://www.magiclampoon.com/lorwyn/white.html)
Blue Cards (http://www.magiclampoon.com/lorwyn/blue.html)
Black Cards (http://www.magiclampoon.com/lorwyn/black.html)
Red Cards (http://www.magiclampoon.com/lorwyn/red.html)
Green Cards (http://www.magiclampoon.com/lorwyn/green.html)
Gold Cards (http://www.magiclampoon.com/lorwyn/gold.html)
Artifacts (http://www.magiclampoon.com/lorwyn/artifact.html)
Lands (http://www.magiclampoon.com/lorwyn/land.html)

I think some of the cards do have a pretty interesting design and do offer some potential for Eternal play.

Lorwyn will be totally awesome! :wink:

Yeah, none of those are fake at all

/sarcasm.

[Aggro_zombies]

Just in case you missed it, the full spoiler for Lorwyn has been revealed...

White Cards (http://www.magiclampoon.com/lorwyn/white.html)
Blue Cards (http://www.magiclampoon.com/lorwyn/blue.html)
Black Cards (http://www.magiclampoon.com/lorwyn/black.html)
Red Cards (http://www.magiclampoon.com/lorwyn/red.html)
Green Cards (http://www.magiclampoon.com/lorwyn/green.html)
Gold Cards (http://www.magiclampoon.com/lorwyn/gold.html)
Artifacts (http://www.magiclampoon.com/lorwyn/artifact.html)
Lands (http://www.magiclampoon.com/lorwyn/land.html)

I think some of the cards do have a pretty interesting design and do offer some potential for Eternal play.

Lorwyn will be totally awesome! :wink:
Vokal Minority seems pretty good.

EDIT: Skittish Hulk too.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah, none of those are fake at all

/sarcasm.

Yeah, don't sweat it. I don't get jokes either.

[Tacosnape]

Most of these were pretty lame attempts to be funny, but I found the wording on the following ability to be completely hilarious.

Daddy Long-Legs
3G
Creature - Insect
2/4
Daddy Long-Legs can block as though it had reach.

EDIT: Flenser's Confusion's pretty hilarious too.

SECOND EDIT: I'm also very sad that Kerosene isn't a real card.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I liked this one.

Captain Obvious
2WW
Creature - Human Soldier
3/3
Other creatures you control with a keyword have that keyword.


Edit: Also,

Final Form Ultimus
3W
Legendary Creature
13/13
Champion every creature type (When this comes into play, sacrifice it unless you remove creatures you control of every
creature type from the game. When this leaves play, those cards return to play.)
Final Form Ultimus is every creature type.
2W: Final Form Ultimus roars and glows menacingly.

[diffy]

Most of these were pretty lame attempts to be funny.


Yeah, I agree... I love the many movie referrences though and there are some really good ones:

Two Half-Coconuts
2
Artifact - Equipment
Equipped creature gains Horsemanship.
Equip 2

--> I absolutely love the movie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Python_and_the_Holy_Grail)... I love the refference

or

Red Shirt
R
Anonymous Creature - Human
0/1
When Red Shirt leaves play, prevent the next harmful effect that would happen to a major character this turn.
Evoke R (You may play this for its evoke cost. If you do, it's sacrificed when it comes into play.)

--> Come on, what's not to like about someone finally saying the obvious truth about Star Trek TOS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_trek_tos)...

[Illissius]

Along with Flenser's Confusion and Kerosene, I also loved Arachnophobia, Animate Orc, and Form of the Juggernaut. A bunch of others were pretty amusing as well (Eevee, Greek Tragedy, Merrow Looter, Sorcery, The House That Jack Built, Lady of the Lake of the Dead...).

[Maveric78f]

The ultimate card :
Pact of Angels
0
Sorcery
Put a 4/4 colorless artifact angel token with Flying and "You cannot lose the game and your opponents cannot win the
game." into play under your control.
At the beginning of your next upkeep, pay 7. If you don't, you lose the game.

Funny one too...

[zulander]

Yeah, don't sweat it. I don't get jokes either.

I was just disappointed because I was looking forward to seeing more new cards.

Sad Panda :*(

On a side note,
Circular Logic Knot
2UU
Instant
Delve (You may remove any number of cards in your graveyard from the game as you play this spell. It costs 1 less to play
for each card removed this way.)
Counter target spell unless its controller pays 1 for each card in your graveyard


This card wouldn't be bad at all. Especially in draft.

[Versus]

Bra Elemental
BB
Creature - Elemental
0/1
Bra Elemental is indestructible.
If Bra Elemental leaves play WOOoooooOO


Hilarious!

[Meekrab]

The ultimate card :
Pact of Angels
0
Sorcery
Put a 4/4 colorless artifact angel token with Flying and "You cannot lose the game and your opponents cannot win the
game." into play under your control.
At the beginning of your next upkeep, pay 7. If you don't, you lose the game.

Funny one too...
It's funny because you don't have to pay the mana, since the token prevents you from losing?

[MattH]

I liked this one.

Captain Obvious
2WW
Creature - Human Soldier
3/3
Other creatures you control with a keyword have that keyword.
Haha, the best part is that it actually DOES something, since Bushido and Flanking are cumulative!

[Aggro_zombies]

It's funny because you don't have to pay the mana, since the token prevents you from losing?
:eek:

No, really?! I didn't know!

[Sanguine Voyeur]

New card up. (http://mtgsalvation.com/lorwyn-spoiler.html#1849)

Don't you just love how MTG Salvation handles new card sets?

[LGD]

Placeholder Card is destined to be a Legacy defining powerhouse- you heard it here first.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm sure it's MTGSal's fault, and not Wizards who financially bankrupted people for leaking their pretendy funtime game wizarding cards.

[frogboy]

I'm sure it's MTGSal's fault, and not Wizards who financially bankrupted people for leaking their pretendy funtime game wizarding cards.

Haha, the best part was going up to MaRo at the prerelease and ask him how he felt about Gatherer being updated the night before the tournament. He was not a happy camper.

PS - there rules text related to Planeswalkers I haven't heard about? Or is everyone just guessing?

[Belgareth]

The only publicly available text is that they may be attacked by unblocked creatures and they lose loyalty for it.
Beyond that a lot is speculation.

[Barook]

The rules for Planeswalkers are known now:


- effectively legendary (can't have more than one of each planeswalker)
- come into play with loyalty counters equal to the number in the bottom right
- play only one ability of each planeswalker on each of your turns, including the turn it comes into play, by adding or removing loyalty counters
- when you attack a player, you can assign any number of your attackers to their planeswalker(s)
- the defending player can block creatures attacking their planeswalker(s)
- whenever a spell or ability you control would deal damage to an opponent, you may assign that damage to their planeswalker(s) instead
- each damage dealt to a planeswalker removes a loyalty counter from it
- if all the loyalty counters are gone, sacrifice the planeswalker

Being able to burn them basically killed them. :frown:

Btw, that's the green Walker. (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56172&stc=1&d=1188632927)

This card, however, looks interesting:

Brion Stoutarm :2::r::w:
Legendary Creature - Giant Warrior
Lifelink
:r:,tap, Sac another creature: Brion deals damage equal to the sacrificed creature's power to target player.
4/4

PS: Why don't we have a Tap smilie?

[Citrus-God]

This looks interesting. It seems Merfolk Opposition is back with a vengeance

Summon the School http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana3.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manaw.gif

Tribal Sorcery - Merfolk

Effect:

Put two 1/1 blue Merfolk Wizard tokens into play

Tap four untapped Merfolk you control: Return Summon the School from your graveyard to your hand.

[Peter_Rotten]

Btw, that's the green Walker. (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56172&stc=1&d=1188632927)

You're probably right, but I do find him more interesting than the black one. I imagine all sorts of stupid trampling, mana-producing goodness with Green Walker. (BTW, how many bad Texas Ranger jokes are PlanesWalkers going to be responsible for?) Anyway imagine Green Walker untapping Gaea's Cradle to play a bunch a critters that will Overrunning the opponent next turn. And his untap ability is good with other Legacy lands like... um... Desert? Karakas (Maybe D&T will be splashing Green now)?

Edit: I must be on crack. I could have sworn your post said that the Green Walker is jank. Sorry, I haven't had my coffee yet.

[Silverdragon]

http://mtgsalvation.com/lorwyn-spoiler.html#1862

OMG a 3/3 Goblin!

[Nihil Credo]

Wait, so you can have multiple Planeswalkers as long as they're different ones? That's interesting.

And screw burn. I mean, yes, it's annoying, but they still dodge 90% of creature removal. And they will likely all survive a single Bolt (Liliana does, and Garruk too if you use its first ability on the turn you play it).

Finally, the Green Walker is far from Jank. Compare it to Call of the Herd:

CotH: 2G for an Elephant, then 3G for another Elephant
Garruk: 2GG for an Elephant. Next turn, 0 for another Elephant. Next turn again, 0 for an Elephant. Any turn after that, or before if you don't want to overextend, you get two mana to obtain an extra activation.
Against aggro, you can get three elephants to choke the ground, and even if they burn it on the spot, you still get a pachiderm out of the deal. Against control, it's a beating.

[Versus]

So far both Walkers support heavy creature play. At least Vess has an 8, this green guy will get Bolted the second he lands on the table.

edit: I stand corrected. I forgot about being able to use the ability as soon as it CIP.


http://mtgsalvation.com/lorwyn-spoiler.html#1862

OMG a 3/3 Goblin!

Great, that doesn't even need a black splash if he comes down with Lackey! The good part being you have to have creature in the yard to get him out so at least he can't get slammed after a first turn Lackey connects

[Barook]

Edit: I must be on crack. I could have sworn your post said that the Green Walker is jank. Sorry, I haven't had my coffee yet.
Ninja Editing ftw! :laugh:

Nihil is right - the elephant thing could be useful.

[Versus]

It is, but once you make that first elephant NOW he's in Bolt range. I think I like Vess a bit more. I'm kinda shocked they would make the Green Walker so wimpy loyalty wise. Once you use any of his abilties within the first few turns he's out he becomes very fragile. If you save him up to build loyalty via the first ability chances are he's been delt with in other ways or in Legacy you're opp is already shuffling their library.

I think I would use him to make a few elephants till he croaks and then just be happy that my Goyf is a 6/7 now.

[Bane of the Living]

Wait whats the Goblin Planeswalker do?!! I cant find him that link isnt working from work.

[Jaynel]

It's not a Goblin Planeswalker. It's this:

Warren Pilferers
4B
Creature - Goblin Rogue
When Warren Pilferers come into play, return target creature card from your graveyard to your hand.
If that card is a Goblin card, Warren Pilferers gains haste until end of turn.
3/3

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think it's kind of funny what people are drawn to before they get to actually play with a set. Of the four cards, Brion Stoutarm's really the only Legacy playable one. The good news is that he seems highly playable. Mid-range guys occupy an unfortunate spot in the metagame, especially after the printing of Tarmogoyf, but he's a very efficient mid game package. And unlike most 4/4s for 4, he can actually race Tarmogoyf even before he gets a SoFI.

[DragoFireheart]

I guess I know which planeswalker I am getting.

btw, does Chuck Norris have an army of Bears. Would make sense seeing he is a ranger an all... :laugh:

[Barook]

I think it's kind of funny what people are drawn to before they get to actually play with a set. Of the four cards, Brion Stoutarm's really the only Legacy playable one. The good news is that he seems highly playable. Mid-range guys occupy an unfortunate spot in the metagame, especially after the printing of Tarmogoyf, but he's a very efficient mid game package. And unlike most 4/4s for 4, he can actually race Tarmogoyf even before he gets a SoFI.

The fun part about Brion is that he can also fling Dreadnoughts. 24 points life swing? Sign me up!

[Jaynel]

Lash Out
1R
Instant
Lash Out deals three damage to target creature. Clash with an opponent. If you win, it deals three damage to that creature's controller. (Each clashing player reveals the top card of his or her library then puts that card on the top or bottom. A player wins if his or her card had a higher converted mana cost)


Pretty cool. 'War' and Scry 1.


Wydwen, the Biting Gale
2UB
Legendary Creature - Faerie Wizard
Flash
Flying
UB, Pay 1 Life: Return Wydwen, the Biting Gale to its owner's hand.
3/3

Kinda weak. Not really playable in Legacy. Pretty sick in Limited though.

These too: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=88011

[center425]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=88011

It's like Portent only much better.

Edit:Unless it cant target.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

These too: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=88011If those are real, my cantrip base is now set in stone; Brainstorm, Portent, and Neo-Portent.

[Pinder]

If those are real, my cantrip base is now set in stone; Brainstorm, Portent, and Neo-Portent.

I'm seriously considering running this 'neo-Portent' over the real one in Countersliver. Not being able to mess with your opponent's draws is a sacrifice I'd be willing to make in order to draw the card right now.

And it still shuffles!

edit: wait, what do I mean 'considering'? I'm picking up a playset of those babies as soon as Lorwyn hits.

[APriestOfGix]

I think i figured it out...

The arrow pointing up, menas your opponit can play that ability, the ones pointing down, mean you can.

Makes sense, you make pay 7 to Mind Twist you opponits hand, but then they pay 8 and retur every creature ever to their side of the field...

or tutor up 4 tarmogoyf's...

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I think i figured it out...

The arrow pointing up, menas your opponit can play that ability, the ones pointing down, mean you can.

Makes sense, you make pay 7 to Mind Twist you opponits hand, but then they pay 8 and retur every creature ever to their side of the field...

or tutor up 4 tarmogoyf's...Took me a second to figure out what you meant.

It could just match whether the ability is positive or negative in terms of loyalty.

[Barook]

I think i figured it out...

The arrow pointing up, menas your opponit can play that ability, the ones pointing down, mean you can.
Derogatory statement removed. Consider this a verbal warning. - Zilla

You, and only you, can activate a Plainswalker (just like any other card with activated abilities unless it's stated otherwise), and you can play only one of those abilities during your turn, at instant speed.

The arrows are merely a tool to make things easier to catch on the first glimpse.

[Nihil Credo]

The new cantrip will finally end all Serum Visions vs. Portent discussions for the second best cantrip, sort of like Tarmogoyf ended all Wild Mongrel vs. Werebear discussions for the best 1G beater.

The self-bounce Counterspell will be strong in Standard. If Blue plus another colour have enough 187 creatures together, Blink-Touch may survive the rotation.

The Clash-burn spell is unplayable. I'll take the certain 3 damage anywhere I like for half the mana, thanks.
On a related note, I hope to Satan that "Clash" is a Red-only mechanic, like coin flipping, and doesn't show up on tournament cards. Sensei's Divining Top notwithstanding, MtG has already enough randomness for my taste.

The Mistform Ultimus bear bothers me. A lot. Mistform Ultimus was one of the coolest creatures ever designed, and now it becomes a fucking keyword? On a vanilla common? That's just cheap, Wizards. We are not amused.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I'm seriously considering running this 'neo-Portent' over the real one in Countersliver. Not being able to mess with your opponent's draws is a sacrifice I'd be willing to make in order to draw the card right now.

And it still shuffles!

edit: wait, what do I mean 'considering'? I'm picking up a playset of those babies as soon as Lorwyn hits.

Holy shit. I really hope this is real. 1 mana Omen is awesome!


Card Name??
U
Sorcery
Look at the top three cards of your library, then put them back in any order. You may shuffle your library.
Draw a card.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I'm seriously considering running this 'neo-Portent' over the real one in Countersliver.
I don't think Counter Sliver is good in the current meta. Explosive are on the rise whilst goblins decline.
Holy shit. I really hope this is real. 1 mana Omen is awesome!Does any one else find it strange that he compared it to an obscure portal card rather than a well known Ice Age card?

[Zilla]

Does any one else find it strange that he compared it to an obscure portal card rather than a well known Ice Age card?
Neo-Portent is actually functionally identical to Omen. It's not functionally identical to Portent. It really is a 1 mana Omen.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Why are we discussing cards that were posted with the words "these are not real, I made them up" in the second line of the post?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah, I was going to say. I know there's some confusion due to the language barrier, but I predict fate. I just don't think they're going to obsolete Portent and take away the unique coolness of Mistform Ultimus.

[Happy Gilmore]

The green one is sick, simply sick:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56265&d=1188710688

[Barook]

Mistform Ultimus was never cool to begin with. But keywording it and slapping it on a bear ist just lame.

But now some serious news:

According to newer translations, the Neo-Portent seems to be an Instant. :eek:

[xsockmonkeyx]

According to newer translations, the Neo-Portent seems to be an Instant. :eek:

*head asplodes due to awesome*

[Nihil Credo]

The neo-Portent is an Instant? Ouch, that makes it a fair deal worse - it won't pump Tarmogoyf as much.

/sarcasm


Why are we discussing cards that were posted with the words "these are not real, I made them up" in the second line of the post?

Uhm, the post says


Please Please Please Please Please do not believe http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/evil_lol.gif
I made it from the imagination http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/evil_lol.gif

It's a single sentence.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I did say line, did I not? Lines and sentences aren't equivalent.

[Raider Bob]

So the Planeswalker abilities work if the arrow is pointing at you you can use that ability during your turn? You can not spend any more loyalty counters than you have. That being said why would you ever give your opponent enough Loyalty counters to make them worth playing.


NOTE: I am sure there will be a way to add loyaltu counters to your Planswalker but they definatly will not see play in Legacy, of course I say that and some Survival deck will make it amazing and win Worlds with it.

[Jaynel]

I think the poster was trying to say (English isn't his first language) "Please do not believe that I made these cards up from my imagination."

[Pale Moon FTW]

That instant speed Portent looks fake. The power-level is so high it's only topped by Brainstorm and Ancestral Recall. Compare that to thepower level of the cantrips currently in type 2 (Opt,Peek,Sleight of Hand) and it just seems way too strong.
The cards weren't made up by the guy who posted them (it has been confirmed that they were printed in a Japanese Magazine), but I think at least one of those cards won't be printed. After all, unofficial information is never totally reliable.

[Nihil Credo]

Wizards did say several times that Brainstorm has a power level low enough to be reprinted. So it makes sense that they'd print a slightly worse cantrip.

[gmorakis]

For what it's worth, it could potentially just be internet sarcasm, judging by the evil devil smilies. The cards are all pretty believable.

[APriestOfGix]

So the Planeswalker abilities work if the arrow is pointing at you you can use that ability during your turn? You can not spend any more loyalty counters than you have. That being said why would you ever give your opponent enough Loyalty counters to make them worth playing.


NOTE: I am sure there will be a way to add loyaltu counters to your Planswalker but they definatly will not see play in Legacy, of course I say that and some Survival deck will make it amazing and win Worlds with it.

No, the ones that lower counters, you can play, the ones that raise, you opponit can.

So, if you opponit wants to use your planswalkers abilities, he runs the risk, of giving you enough counters to play your other abilities.

It seems right.

All planswalkers have a small ability (you opponit can use) that give counters.

They also have a good ability they can use 2-3 times thats is very good, w/o having to have any counters added.

Then they have a "Super" ability, that can only be used if your opponit uses his ability 1-X times.

So this all makes sense. User you good ability, and hope you opponit uses his a LOT to be able to use your super, or wait around, and hope he uses his ability, so you can use your super sooner.

Also i'm not sure, if they are going to be a 1 time a turn rule, if it's not your opponits ability it will be there, otherwise you can mindtwist opponits, or make 1,000,000 bears.

Otherwise, it might be able to be activated many times a turn, since your opponit has to activate for you to do it too many times...

[Kronicler]

After reading MTGSalvation, I am pretty sure that the 1cc instant speed omen is confirmed now after lots of different translators, human and internet, coming up with the same things. Card name = Think, U, instant, common, look at top 3 or your library, put them back in any order, you may shuffle your library, draw a card. This card is frickin amazing and is going to see play in block, standard, extended, legacy, and probably even vintage where Opt currently sees some play. Just when we thought threshold couldn't get any better, then second best cantrip ever is printed.

Kronicler

EDIT: You guys need to stop arguing about how planeswalkers work. Their rules have already been confirmed by InQuest magazine:

A quick recap of the Planeswalker rules, according to the InQuest issue:

- effectively legendary (can't have more than one of each planeswalker)
- come into play with loyalty counters equal to the number in the bottom right
- play only one ability of each planeswalker on each of your turns, including the turn it comes into play, by adding or removing loyalty counters
- when you attack a player, you can assign any number of your attackers to their planeswalker(s)
- the defending player can block creatures attacking their planeswalker(s)
- whenever a spell or ability you control would deal damage to an opponent, you may assign that damage to their planeswalker(s) instead
- each damage dealt to a planeswalker removes a loyalty counter from it
- if all the loyalty counters are gone, sacrifice the planeswalker

Once again, this is NOT speculation, this is completely CONFIRMED.

[APriestOfGix]

i dissagree...

but w/e time will show...

[DragoFireheart]

After reading MTGSalvation, I am pretty sure that the 1cc instant speed omen is confirmed now after lots of different translators, human and internet, coming up with the same things. Card name = Think, U, instant, common, look at top 3 or your library, put them back in any order, you may shuffle your library, draw a card. This card is frickin amazing and is going to see play in block, standard, extended, legacy, and probably even vintage where Opt currently sees some play. Just when we thought threshold couldn't get any better, then second best cantrip ever is printed.

Kronicler

EDIT: You guys need to stop arguing about how planeswalkers work. Their rules have already been confirmed by InQuest magazine:

A quick recap of the Planeswalker rules, according to the InQuest issue:

- effectively legendary (can't have more than one of each planeswalker)
- come into play with loyalty counters equal to the number in the bottom right
- play only one ability of each planeswalker on each of your turns, including the turn it comes into play, by adding or removing loyalty counters
- when you attack a player, you can assign any number of your attackers to their planeswalker(s)
- the defending player can block creatures attacking their planeswalker(s)
- whenever a spell or ability you control would deal damage to an opponent, you may assign that damage to their planeswalker(s) instead
- each damage dealt to a planeswalker removes a loyalty counter from it
- if all the loyalty counters are gone, sacrifice the planeswalker

Once again, this is NOT speculation, this is completely CONFIRMED.

If this is true than burn-based spells will own the crap out of the walkers.

[Alfred]

You can use all of the different abilities on Planeswalkers, but only once a turn, and on your turn.

That's almost certainly how it works.

[Pinder]

Planeswalker Minisite updated again. Straight from Wizards:



You can play a planeswalker only at the time you could play a sorcery. A planeswalker is a permanent, so when a planeswalker spell resolves, it comes into play under your control. Any spell or ability that affects a permanent (for example, "destroy target permanent") can affect a planeswalker. Note that planeswalkers aren't creatures; if a card says it affects a creature, it won't affect a planeswalker.

PLANESWALKER SUBTYPES

Each planeswalker has a subtype. For example, Garruk Wildspeaker says "Planeswalker -- Garruk" on its type line. These subtypes are also called planeswalker types. These are not creature types; they're an independent list.

* If two or more planeswalkers that share a subtype are in play, they're all put into their owners' graveyards as a state-based effect.

PLANESWALKER LOYALTY

Loyalty is a characteristic only planeswalkers have. Each planeswalker has a loyalty number printed in the lower right corner of the card. This isn't a power or toughness -- it's a new value.

# A planeswalker comes into play with a number of loyalty counters on it equal to its loyalty number. While a planeswalker is in play, its loyalty is equal to the number of loyalty counters on it, and its printed loyalty number is ignored.

# Damage dealt to a planeswalker results in that many loyalty counters being removed from it; see "Dealing Damage to Planeswalkers" below.

# Playing an ability of a planeswalker causes it to gain or lose loyalty; see "Planeswalker Abilities" below. As a planeswalker loses loyalty, that many loyalty counters are removed from it. As a planeswalker gains loyalty, that many additional counters are put onto it.

# If a planeswalker's loyalty is 0, it's put into its owner's graveyard as a state-based effect.

# While a planeswalker card isn't in play, its loyalty is equal to the number printed in its lower right corner.

PLANESWALKER ABILITIES

Each planeswalker in the Lorwyn set has three activated abilities. These abilities have specific restrictions that aren't spelled out on the card, and their costs use a new symbol.

# An ability of a planeswalker may be played only by that planeswalker's controller, and only any time he or she could play a sorcery. A player may play a planeswalker's ability the turn it enters play. A player may not play a planeswalker's ability if any of its abilities have been played already that turn. In other words, you're limited to one ability from each of your planeswalkers during your turn.

# The cost to play a planeswalker's ability is represented by an arrow with a number inside. Up-arrows contain positive numbers, such as "+3"; this means "Put three loyalty counters on this planeswalker." Down-arrows contain negative numbers, such as "-1"; this means "Remove one loyalty counter from this planeswalker." You can't play a planeswalker's ability with a negative loyalty cost unless the planeswalker has at least that many loyalty counters on it.

PLANESWALKERS IN COMBAT

Planeswalkers aren't creatures, so they can't attack or block. However, planeswalkers can be attacked.

As the declare attackers step begins, if the defending player controls a planeswalker, the active player declares who or what each attacking creature is attacking: the defending player or one of that player's planeswalkers. All the attacking creatures may attack the same thing, or they may attack different things. If the defending player controls multiple planeswalkers, any or all of them can be attacked during the same combat phase.

As the declare blockers step begins, the defending player declares which creatures he or she controls (if any) are blocking the attacking creatures. The blocking creatures don't care who or what the attackers are attacking.

During the combat damage step, damage from unblocked creatures attacking the defending player, damage from blocked creatures, and damage from blocking creatures is assigned and dealt as normal. Unblocked creatures that are attacking a planeswalker assign and deal their combat damage to that planeswalker, which causes that many loyalty counters to be removed from it. Planeswalkers, like players, don't deal combat damage.

# If a creature with trample is attacking a planeswalker and is blocked, the attacker must assign lethal damage to each blocker, and may assign excess damage to the planeswalker. However, a creature with trample that's attacking a planeswalker can't "trample over" that planeswalker and assign combat damage to the defending player.

# If a planeswalker leaves play or changes controllers, it's removed from combat and stops being attacked. However, a creature that was attacking that planeswalker isn't removed from combat -- it continues to attack. It may be blocked. If it isn't blocked, it remains an attacking creature but assigns no damage during the combat damage step. If it is blocked, it will deal damage to any creature blocking it as normal. If the attacker has trample, the trample ability has no effect because there's nothing for the creature to assign excess damage to.

# In the Two-Headed Giant multiplayer variant, a creature can attack the defending team or attack a planeswalker controlled by either member of that team. A creature attacking a planeswalker can be blocked by creatures controlled by either member of the defending team, not just creatures controlled by the planeswalker's controller.

DEALING DAMAGE TO PLANESWALKERS

If a source you control would deal noncombat damage to an opponent, you may have that source deal that damage to a planeswalker that opponent controls instead. This is a redirection effect: you choose whether to redirect the damage as the redirection effect is applied, and it's subject to the normal rules for ordering replacement effects. The player affected by the damage chooses the order in which to apply such effects, but the controller of the source of the damage chooses whether the damage is redirected. Note that this redirection can't be applied to combat damage.

# For example, although you can't target a planeswalker with Shock, you can target your opponent with Shock, and then as Shock resolves, choose to have Shock deal its 2 damage to one of your opponent's planeswalkers. If you do, two loyalty counters are removed from that planeswalker.

# You can't choose to split the damage between a player and a planeswalker. In the Shock example above, you couldn't have Shock deal 1 damage to the player and 1 damage to the planeswalker.

# If a source you control would deal damage to you, you can't have that source deal that damage to one of your planeswalkers instead.

# In a Two-Headed Giant game, damage that would be dealt to a player can't be redirected to a planeswalker his or her teammate controls.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

i dissagree...

but w/e time will show...

How can you disagree with official information?

[Nihil Credo]

Guys, a hot new card has been spoiled, it's awesome!! Look at the latest card! (http://mtgsalvation.com/lorwyn-spoiler.html)

[URABAHN]

Guys, a hot new card has been spoiled, it's awesome!! Look at the latest card! (http://mtgsalvation.com/lorwyn-spoiler.html#1871)

Change body into Forest doesn't exactly seem like something that'll light the Legacy World on fire.

[Nihil Credo]

You fail. I was pointing at the latest card spoiled, i.e. the one at the top of the list - truly an amazing novelty.

Unless your post was ironic, in which case the fail is on me.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Speaking of "Change Body Into Forest"... why does it a "Creature - Shapeshifter Soldier" if it's like Mistform Ultimus? Sort of seems redundant.


Anyway, I'm really excited to see the new Incarnations and creatures with Evoke. Bring 'em on!

[Illissius]

I've heard new Incarnations mentioned twice now. Where is that from?

Nihil: Your link jumps to Change Body into Forest.

[Nihil Credo]

Dammit, fixed. Oh well, it wasn't very funny anyway.

[Bardo]

Lash Out

Instant
Lash Out deals three damage to target creature. Clash with an opponent. If you win, it deals three damage to that creature's controller. (Each clashing player reveals the top card of his or her library then puts that card on the top or bottom. A player wins if his or her card had a higher converted mana cost)

War (http://www.pagat.com/war/war.html)! That's awesome. What a clever Un-esque mechanic to add in a tourney legal set.

Re: Planeswalker, I have no idea how Legacy-viable they will be, but I think they're rather brilliant conceptually. I really like the idea and execution.

[Barook]

Re: Planeswalker, I have no idea how Legacy-viable they will be, but I think they're rather brilliant conceptually. I really like the idea and execution.

I admit that the idea behind Planeswalker isn't bad, but the execution is more or less horrible. The rules behind them are unnecessary complicated (e.g. direct damage to players/walkers), they're fragile and the fact that a versatile 1 mana artifact can stop them easily in every format (except Limited & Block) speaks clearly against them.

I don't think the Walkers are going to see much play outside Casual/Limited/Block unless they print something really broken.

[Zilla]

Conceptually, players themselves are supposed to be Planeswalkers duelling with other Planeswalkers. So at least as far as flavor is concerned, I think they executed the Planeswalker concept very well, in that you can assign it damage as though it were a "mini-player", and so forth. The rules may look complex, but in actual practice I don't think they're going to be very complex at all. For the most part, there's nothing more complex going on here than what can occur during a normal attack phase.

I agree though that they're going to have to print one hell of a Planeswalker to make it Legacy playable. Like at first glance, Gurruk seems really good, but when you consider that he's going to have trouble using his second or third abilities if your opponent controls more creatures than you, or if he's got, like, a Lightning Bolt, it makes it kind of hard to justify a :2::g::g: investment.

On a different note, can a Fire/Ice deal one damage to a player and one to a Planeswalker? According to the rules text, a single damage source can't be split, but Fire/Ice is sort of a special case.

[Barook]

On a different note, can a Fire/Ice deal one damage to a player and one to a Planeswalker? According to the rules text, a single damage source can't be split, but Fire/Ice is sort of a special case.
Nope, as far as I understand it, you can't target the Planeswalker, only its controller. Once Fire resolves, you can choose who gets the damage, the player or the walker.

I find it also illogical that something like Earthquake only damages the opponent or the walker because the walker is considered a "mini-player".

Power issues aside, why can you burn Planeswalkers, but not heal (= life gain) them? It makes perfect sense in terms of flavor - you heal them and in exchange, they're more loyal to you. It would make life gain strategies somewhat more competitive, too.
Edit: It's also stupid that damage is treated different than life loss.

[DragoFireheart]

Nope, as far as I understand it, you can't target the Planeswalker, only its controller. Once Fire resolves, you can choose who gets the damage, the player or the walker.

I find it also illogical that something like Earthquake only damages the opponent or the walker because the walker is considered a "mini-player".

Power issues aside, why can you burn Planeswalkers, but not heal (= life gain) them? It makes perfect sense in terms of flavor - you heal them and in exchange, they're more loyal to you. It would make life gain strategies somewhat more competitive, too.
Edit: It's also stupid that damage is treated different than life loss.

Yeah, Healing Salve on a Planeswalker, then unleash their uber ability.

Healing Salve would make them so broken.

[AngryTroll]

Lightning Helix for the win....burn out a Planeswalker and heal your own. Savage tech.

[frogboy]

On a different note, can a Fire/Ice deal one damage to a player and one to a Planeswalker? According to the rules text, a single damage source can't be split, but Fire/Ice is sort of a special case.

I don't think you can Fire the head and split one to the Walker, but you could just target them each for one.

[Meekrab]

I don't think you can Fire the head and split one to the Walker, but you could just target them each for one.
No, you can't. Read the thread.

[Nihil Credo]

Yeah, Healing Salve on a Planeswalker, then unleash their uber ability.

Healing Salve would make them so broken.
A two-card combo and 3BBW for an improved Living Death? A two-card combo and 2GGW a couple of Elephants followed by a worse Overrun, in three successive turns? Seems pretty fair to me, especially when you consider that one of the cards is horrible on its own.

I think it would definitely be cool if, similar to how burn spells work, you could turn "target player gains X life" into loyalty counters.
It would only threaten brokenness if "You gain X life" could be turned into loyalty: then you could use Hierarchs, Jitte and the like, and it also wouldn't make sense because you can't turn "You lose X life" into Planeswalker loss of loyalty.

[mikekelley]

You know I was pretty stoked on this set when I first saw some of the new art and heard some of the concepts, it seemed like we were going back to the fantasy, Tolkien-esque roots of magic. With each day I seem to like this set less and less, the new frames are cheeseball, the planeswalkers are kind of cookie-cutter in my opinion, just like enchantments with an ass if you ask me. I just want some normal cards for christ's sake, and whoever is incharge to cool it with the fancy shmantzy mechanics and themes.

:mad:

[etrigan]

Even in Type 2 right now, there's a hell of a lot of burn available. Type 2 might turn into Burn vs. Planeswalker.dec for a while, but overall, I dont think Planeswalkers will be all the nuts they were meant to be. They're just too fragile.

[Nihil Credo]

It's worth noting that the two Planeswalker we've seen so far do not seem to require a lot of building around. Sideboarding them in against decks that can't kill them (or win before they resolve) may be pretty cool.

Dear Landstill: here's your personal Necrogen Mists. Also, three turns from now I'll get back all the creatures you've killed.

Dear Wombat/Train Wreck: here's four 3/3s in five turns. And you thought Call of the Herd was annoying.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

I think the untap abillity from the green one seems realy nice...
Maby in green Stax!?

First turn elve or Exploration next trun the "Planesworker" untapping some Ancient Tombs and thene Trinisphere...

Ok he isnt that good but in t2 he is awesome!

[Barook]

Even in Type 2 right now, there's a hell of a lot of burn available. Type 2 might turn into Burn vs. Planeswalker.dec for a while, but overall, I dont think Planeswalkers will be all the nuts they were meant to be. They're just too fragile.
You don't even need burn to rape a Planeswalker, just a Pithing Needle, even in T2. No card disadvantage for you, besides having a damn flexible Sb card.

I still think that Planeswalker are a vastly overhyped gimmick. We still need to see something that is actually worth the investment.

[Zilla]

You don't even need burn to rape a Planeswalker, just a Pithing Needle, even in T2.
Are you sure about this? In the rules text for Planeswalkers, the wording is "playing abilities" and "adding or removing loyalty counters". It's never referred to as paying an activation cost, or as an activated ability. I'm not necessarily saying that doesn't make it an activated ability, but it's not specifically referred to that way in the rules text.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Are you sure about this? In the rules text for Planeswalkers, the wording is "playing abilities" and "adding or removing loyalty counters". It's never referred to as paying an activation cost, or as an activated ability. I'm not necessarily saying that doesn't make it an activated ability, but it's not specifically referred to that way in the rules text.They do have colins though, though out the entire game Colin = Activated ability.

Here's something I should have posted here, rather then the Solidarity thread;

I don't believe that "Ponder" is an sorcery.

If you look at the source (http://mtgjapan.x.cmssquare.com/modules/wordpress/index.php?p=144) of the card and find the card with Portent and Æthermage's Touch under it, its type is listed as "インスタント," witch phonetically translates out as insutanto. It's obvious that "insutanto" is borrowed from English's "instant."

[Di]

Considering there is a colon after the +/- Loyalty counters, I would assume they are activated abilities.

EDIT: Posted at same time as Sacul. Oh well.

[Barook]

Cloud of Faeries got a new friend:

"Spike Faerie" :1::u:
Creature-Faerie
Flying
Flash
When "Spike Faerie" comes into play, counter target spell unless its controller pays :1: for each Faerie you control.
1/1

[Nihil Credo]

Old-school Fish maybe? The usual blue suspects, plus Aether Vial, Cloud of Faeries, Spiketail Hatchling, Spiketail Faeries, Wasteland/Port, and Jittes+Bonesplitter to actually kill your opponent.

[Happy Gilmore]

Cloud of Faeries got a new friend:

"Spike Faerie" :1::u:
Creature-Faerie
Flying
Flash
When "Spike Faerie" comes into play, counter target spell unless its controller pays :1: for each Faerie you control.
1/1

That card is insanely cool. This set feels like the return of blue, anyone else feel like that?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

The red planeswalker (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56690&d=1189123050) looks like it fits the colour, passion and energy.

It actually looks like somethings happening, as opposed to the other ones which just stand there.

[TheCramp]

Cloud of Faeries got a new friend:

"Spike Faerie" :1::u:
Creature-Faerie
Flying
Flash
When "Spike Faerie" comes into play, counter target spell unless its controller pays :1: for each Faerie you control.
1/1

Thats cool, where did you find it? It's not on the list at salvation yet.