[Deck] Death and Taxes [Archive]

Finn

08-26-2007, 02:21 PM

In development since Time Spiral came out, Death and Taxes has become a peculiar kind of control deck. But since it is mostly creatures doing the controlling (with disruption and tricks), it looks like little more than white weenie to the casual observer. It never establishes actual control over the game either. The idea is to aggressively land creatures while creating a difficult environment for the opponent's deck to thrive in. "Taxes" refers to this kind of disruption. The deck wins by delaying or negating elements of the opponent's strategy while its creatures deliver damage. Death and Taxes is not especially fast. The control is not particularly powerful. It does not have a killer combo finish. It does not even have any especially broken cards. What it does have is a strategy that dismantles the engines of other decks and the ability to coax them into playing its game, not their own.

Because of it's generic forms of disruption, Death and Taxes should have a fighting chance against just about every other deck in Legacy when piloted properly. Of course there is a catch! To pilot the deck close to its potential you have to know both your deck and your opponent's deck intimately. Learning both your deck plus basically every deck you will face is a daunting task, especially in Legacy, but it is the nature of this deck to demand - and reward you for it. To assist all of you with this I will try to keep the matchup section up-to-date with the help of the other contributors.

As you can imagine, there are plenty of creatures that have the potential to see play in a deck as broad as this one. There may be references in this primer to cards that are not in the deck that follows. Feel free to experiment with any disruptive creatures you wish, but the decklist here will be pretty close to ideal for competitive Legacy.

What will D+T look like with the new cards in recent sets? This is an estimate.
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
9 Plains

4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Flickerwisp
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Shalai, Voice of Plenty

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

Sideboard
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Banisher Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest In Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor

Being a mono-colored deck, it lacks the raw power of some of the many-color decks that you will be facing. But Legacy is perennially overloaded with decks trying to eke out every drop from their lands. This results in unstable manabases that can be ransacked. Death and Taxes arguably has the strongest mana denial suite in the format in part because it gets to use more of its lands to deprive those same greedy decks of their mana. This element alone will win plenty of games.

I have a somewhat better detailed, and better upkept thread on this deck here:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=306633

Even better is Phil Gallagher's (Medea_) website specifically for Death and Taxes:
http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/

Nihil Credo

08-26-2007, 02:41 PM

technogeek5000

08-26-2007, 07:05 PM

Nice primer. Mine as well share my list for the new thread

Lands(22)
3 plains
4 scrubland
7 fetches
4 wasteland
4 karakas

Creatures(21)
4 serra avenger
4 Silver knight
4 Dark confidant
3 Mangara
3 Isamaru
3 jotun grunt

Control(10)
4 Stp
3 mana tithe
3 Cataclysm

Utility(7)
4 Vial
3 Jitte

Sideboard
4 Chalice
4 Tormod's crypt
3 Duress
3 E plauge
1 Cataclysm

The black splash gives this deck some draw, better combo hate, and the best answer to goblins. My list doesnt run samurai yet because its Im still testing it. I also dont run stonecloaker (with jittes, mangara lock, cards from confidant i think its a bad investment for your mana). Also wasteland has been better then port in testing.

Sanguine Voyeur

08-26-2007, 07:11 PM

I think it should be noted that when using Mangara on your opponent's turn, you activate it, your opponent gets priority, then you can bounce it.

Nihil Credo

08-27-2007, 07:00 AM

I think it should be noted that when using Mangara on your opponent's turn, you activate it, your opponent gets priority, then you can bounce it.
That is a common misconception. After a player has played a spell or an ability, that very same player gets priority back, regardless of whose turn it is. The active player gets priority first only at the beginning of a new step or after an object on the stack has resolved.

HdH_Cthulhu

08-27-2007, 07:16 PM

I am very sure you get priority before things resolve not after!
You could put a lot of things on the stack but befor the stack resolves he will get priority even with split second...

EDIT: after reading your post 3 times i realize you are right! But anyways your opponent could shoot your mangare before you bounce him...

Faluzure

08-27-2007, 09:11 PM

Hey Finn, don't mean to clutter up the thread space but congratulations! I've been out of Magic for several months now, but I remember the early stages of this deck. Lots have changed since then!

Bane of the Living

08-27-2007, 09:33 PM

i built another d+t list for mad mankins they where almost the same he had +1 port +1 wastland -1 samuri -1 flaggstones his sb had 3x pithing N and no grunts.
i ran

white list with 2x cataclysm 3x samuri 3x port and 3x wastland
my sb was
3x abolish
3x orms chant
2x tivadar of thorn
3x powder keg
4x rebuff the wicked (my block constucted tec) witch was awsome it stoped so many thins it was another counterspell out of left field.with stonecloker my guys never really died.....ever.....i also kept jitte when the disenchant/whatever to remove it. no STPing Avenger in g2 no sink hole. it was good.
i split with mankins at the dragons lair after we went 3/1/1 each
then we went to of the wall games at 6
i won the swiss mankins placed 2nd 4/0(me) mankins only loss was to me.
by the way the mirror is a bitch. rebuff ftw in g2 to stop his STP on my jitted avenger.:cool: another 60 in credit 4 me and 35 for mankins:laugh:

Proper capitalization and punctuation are required on these boards. Please use them in the future. - Zilla

Yes thats D&T taking 1st and 2nd in two tournamens in one day. Sick.

I honestly think the Ichorid matchup is unfavorable.. Samurai does help but as long as your opponent doesnt mulligan to oblivion or play into your Mana Tithes I think D&T is in danger of losing the early game. Getting Jitte online will almost always end it though..

Nice to see this deck finally start getting the respect its long deserved.

Finn

08-28-2007, 01:04 PM

1) Have you tried Pithing Needles, at least in the sideboard? Every time I've played against D&T it crapped its pants at the sight of an Engineered Explosives, let alone a Pernicious Deed.

2) Is the good Ichorid matchup supposed to apply even to newer Narcobridge builds? I tried Bane of the Living's last list yesterday, and since its fundamental turn is 2-3, I find it hard to believe that Stonecloakers and Grunts are a big threat for the deck. New Ichorid plays a lot more like storm combo, except with dredgers instead of Rituals.

1. I have not. I don't see any particular reason why you shouldn't if that crap is a problem. Pernicious Deed can kiss my ass, though. It's really good in games when you don't draw enough creatures. Explosives, I have never had a problem with, as it usually only gets about two permanents. Thing is about board sweepers, you rarely have more than a couple of creatures and an artifact out anyway, except against the kinds of decks that don't play those cards. What was the circumstance that made it such a big play?

2. Yes. Well, sorta. My own experiences have been mostly positive, but I am inclined to think I have been lucky a lot. If you have Samurai or Grunt in play on turn two, you can last long enough to get something like an Avenger w/Jitte or repeated Stonecloaker uses to seal the deal. But even a surprise blocker that dies and removes bridges can be good. That is the sort of things I have done. But there is no backup plan in this matchup. Ichy really plays like combo in that sense. Cataclysm is a short term solution, and Mangara lock has been useless for me. As for PhaerimmArchlord, I think he made a deal with the devil or something, because apparently he always gets the cards he needs every game in a deck with no draw. So I don't really know what to say about his games.

@Faluzure - thx. Good to see you back.

@Cthulu - Yes, they can. The good players do. But you still got a 2-for-1 atleast. I can't tell you how many times I have played people who get upset that they shot a Lightning Bolt at Serra Avenger the turn before only to see Mangara off a vial on turn 4.

technogeek5000

08-28-2007, 02:50 PM

D+T. Raping a Masachusetts meta near you.

Sigged for truth :laugh:

Edit: I just saw a interesting card that may be good enough to sideboard

Vengeful dreams WW
As a additional cost discard X cards from your hand

Remove X target attacking creatures from the game.

This card is good against most aggro decks. I knowthat this deck already has a good matchup against them, but this card does look strong. just throwing it out there.

CleverPetriDish

08-28-2007, 03:43 PM

Sheesh, this change of venue took long enough. D+T is the deck to beat in Alabama. Landstill is big, and Ichy too, but this one seems to be the fav for a while now. Can't believe WW is winning.

About Vengeful Dreams, even with all the potential for duplicate legendary stuff, I still don't tend to have extra stuff in my hand very often. I am iffy on this card. What's wrong with Condemn?

Faluzure

08-28-2007, 08:50 PM

@Finn & PhaerimmArchlord: My build of D&T is one of the earlier ones. Back then, I remember specifically that we were trying to figure out what creature was best for the 2CC slot.

Anyway, I noticed that Hokori, Dust Drinker is totally out of the deck altogether. now. I noticed that Finn did mention him as a "other popular" card. I can attest to the fact that he has won me many games with his soft lock. Of course in match ups where he was useless, I always sideboarded him out. I was wondering what lead to the dismissal of Hokori. I assume it was because of the inclusion of Cataclysm?

HdH_Cthulhu

08-30-2007, 06:04 AM

Is there a list with the blue splash?
I think whene you make a splash keep the splash very light! That means much fetches few tundras and maby one island! Wasteland isnt that problem because we play anyways a Karakas!

Mana thithe = Daze
random beater = Meddling Mage
and for sure Brainstorm!

I dont know what cards to cut...

Could someone post a list?

technogeek5000

09-02-2007, 10:40 AM

I just realized that you run explosives in that list. What was your reasoning behind this. It seems like explosives would hurt you alot and sometimes more then your opponent.

Edit: I also am looking forward to Lorwyn. Does D&T get any new/playable cards from this set.

Barook

09-02-2007, 10:47 AM

@PhaerimmArchlord: Another question: Since you are already running blue, a few 1cc artifacts and set your Vial to 3, why not Trinket Mage? Most likely it's overkill, but i would hear some opinions about that.

PS: Please use proper capitalization and punctuation - your posts are a pain in the ass to read in the current state.

CleverPetriDish

09-07-2007, 12:35 PM

I have been trying out 8.5 Tails. It's pretty handy to have in the True Believer spot for game one, and then in the Mana Tithe spot for games two and three. Has anyone else tried out this strategy?

Nihil Credo

09-07-2007, 05:43 PM

I tried it, but it was only really good in topdeck mode. At any other times, spending three mana to counter a removal spell tended to be a worse option than just doing something else with the mana; using the ability to dodge/survive combat basically never came up since it was unneeded if I had a Jitte or an Avenger, and if I had neither I wasn't going to win the race or even trade successfully.

I agree that True Believer is too often a Grizzly Bear to deserve a maindeck slot (at least in any meta where you'd want to play D&T). I believe the best choices in replacement are either 2 maindeck Grunts, which are amazing 85% of the time and terrible the remaining 15%; or Samurai of the Pale Curtain #3-4, which have a very useful ability and always trade with a Mongoose (unlike my old favourite Knight of the Holy Nimbus). Power vs. consistency, essentially.

Barook

09-10-2007, 10:03 AM

With a new anti-combo bomb (http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/fcpics/features/422_jghja_GaddockTeeg.jpg) revealed, is it worth now to consider a green splash? It would give you Tarmogofy as well, although the deck rather lacks ways to utilize it.

Maveric78f

09-10-2007, 10:19 AM

Tarmogofy as well, although the deck rather lacks ways to utilize it

When will people understand, that, as everybody is playing this creature, there is no gain in playing suboptimal cards just to pump it up. Just play it in order to make your opponent waste some creature removal or to block your opponent's tarmo. That's stupid, but that's the clever way to play it.

I believe taht Death and Taxes would be the only deck that would take advantage of this new card, except that it prevents you to play Cataclysm. You know better than me if it's affordable to abandon the cataclysm.

Faluzure

09-10-2007, 10:29 AM

When will people understand, that, as everybody is playing this creature, there is no gain in playing suboptimal cards just to pump it up. Just play it in order to make your opponent waste some creature removal or to block your opponent's tarmo. That's stupid, but that's the clever way to play it.

I believe taht Death and Taxes would be the only deck that would take advantage of this new card, except that it prevents you to play Cataclysm. You know better than me if it's affordable to abandon the cataclysm.

I agree with your first paragraph.

Edit: Nevermind. Reading comprehension = 0.

sammiel

09-10-2007, 12:40 PM

3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Mana Tithe
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Serra Avenger
3 Silver Knight
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Stonecloaker
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Karakas
4 Wasteland
2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Windswepth Heath
4 Savannah
3 Plains
1 Forest

sb:
1 Condemn
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Orim's Chant
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tivadar of Thorn
3 Cataclysm

Here's my attempt at a quickly cobbled together G/W tax list, I don't know if the lands would work, and I don't have MWS at the moment to playtest, but I imagine it would look something like this. Basically I copy/pasted the sample list in the opening post, then browsed over the U/W list in the thread also. Of the things that were taken out, I think Pale Curtain definitely might have room in the SB, maybe over Tivadar since you may not need the oomph against goblins. Another card I like is Rancor, although I couldn't find room for it without playtesting.

Faluzure

09-10-2007, 12:49 PM

The cool thing with Teeg is that he's another target for Karakas.

Finn

09-10-2007, 01:08 PM

Yeah, this guy is killing me. Obviously he is very good, but follow me on this line of reasoning. His ability is rally good for hosing combo, so we include him. Without even getting into the design holes that opens up, we need to answer "is the splash worth it?". Well, in the past, people have splashed blue for Meddling Mage and/or Stifle. That was good enough in a combo heavy meta, but it detracted somewhat from the deck's speed and tricksie abilities to the point that most folks would agree the monowhite is generally better. So is this guy more of a hassle on combo (and possibly control) than the blue splash would be? It seems likely that the answer is squarely "no". Therefor we need to explore reasons to splash Green to see if this guy is worth it. So what other avenues does the Green splash open up then?

Watchwolf
Captain Sisay
Crop Rotation
Tarmogoyf

I think that there is no room for Watchwolf right now. And what Captain Sisay does (makes for great long game and inevitability) is better performed by Cataclysm. Crop Rotation is quite good in this deck (with Karakas and Flagstones in particular), but usually unnecessary due to the low cost of your spells. Finally, Tarmogoyf is tempting as always, but consider that this deck has so many measures aimed at disrupting graveyards (which happen to similarly disrupt Tarmos) that there would be a considerable change required to make him work - thereby diminishing the graveyard hate to some degree. It might be a good tradeoff, but it probably is not since the first card to sub it in for is Jotun Grunt which is very similar in size, and is a good hoser for opposing Tarmos, et al.

So is Gaddock Teeg himself going to be useful enough to warrant the Green Splash? I think probably not. One last thought, though. The ability to protect him with Karakas (and to a lesser degree, Stonecloaker) makes him pretty hard to kill. He has this going for him, and it is not a trivial advantage.

BIG EDIT after seeing sammiel's post: Cataclysm is so much better than every other card at doing what it does that it should NEVER be relegated to the sb unless your meta is about 75% Threshold.

sammiel

09-10-2007, 01:13 PM

Isao, Enlightened Bushi is something I tinkered around with in other decks in the past. Trades with most of the creatures in the format, and either bounces or regenerates if you have the land open.

Eldariel

09-10-2007, 01:13 PM

When I looked at the card I immediately thought this deck. Remember that as long as you've got Karakas, you can return him to your hand when you want to resolve Cataclysm. I don't think, the lack of synergy would be unbearable.

Finn

09-10-2007, 01:26 PM

It is going to be very hard to get the mana right, and who is willing to fry up the lands for this one guy? My crystal ball fails me here. Look at sammiel's list. It has 9 Green mana sources. The word here is "ugh". You could maneuvre it some more, but that opens you up to stuff like Blood Moon and land destruction which have never been effective against this deck in the past. And I think the guy is sb material.

I'm interested, don't get me wrong. Just cautious.

sammiel

09-10-2007, 01:32 PM

as I said, the manabase is kind of atrocious because I can't actually do any playtesting atm, and I have never played with or against this deck, I'm just interested in it, since I have about half the cards I need for the green splash.

I would not splash green for only Teeg, but I do see your point against Goyf, I guess I'm on the fence about his inclusion.

*edit*

Although I do strongly disagree about green not being more disruptive than blue. Teeg shuts off EtW and Tendrils in storm combo, Dread Return vs Breakfast and Ichorid, as well as stopping Wrath, EE, Disk, and Fact against landstill, and FoW against everyone. Maybe it's better to return cataclysm to the MD and bounce him/wait for him to eat it before you drop your bomb, but Teeg is a house.

Eldariel

09-10-2007, 02:25 PM

Teeg also shuts down Goblin Charbelcher, so he basically covers all the major combo's win cards and engines (Ill-Gotten Gains, Diminishing Returns). Overall, rather solid in colours traditionally weak against combo.

Nihil Credo

09-10-2007, 03:42 PM

Vial eases the problem of consistently getting Green mana.

IMO, playing Gaddock + Goyf as a replacement for Grunt + random 2-drop (in my case Samurai) offers the following trade:

- combo hate
- a permanent 5/6 instead of a temporary 4/4
- increased Legend count
- resilience to mass sweepers (stops everything but Deed, including Engineered Explosives)

in exchange for

- graveyard and Tarmogoyf hate
- a 2/2 Bushido instead of a vanilla 2/2 (a debatable improvement because of Karakas)

Unless your meta is dominated by Ichorid (Breakfast doesn't count because Gaddock hoses it too), I think this trade isn't even close. I'm putting the two fuckers in my main deck and making room for some Tormod's Crypts in the sideboard, right now.

Set aside the combo matchup, where a resolved Gaddock is as close to gg as it comes. Picture the following against a control deck: Needle on Pernicious Deed, and Gaddock in play with a Karakas or Stonecloaker available. That's just plain sexy.

nightbringer

09-10-2007, 05:21 PM

When I saw this card I immediately thought of D&T.
Its a shame to play a spash in this deck but with goyf and this guy it seems worth it.
The sinergy with karakas is great so you can keep playing cataclysm.

Im just trowing some idea's here but how do you feel about a couple of life from the loam in this deck?
It seems like a nice card for this deck if you want to play green.

4 Plains
4 Savanah
4 Wasteland
4 Karakas
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Windswepth Heath

3 Isamaru
3 Mangara
3 goyf
4 Serra Avenger
3 Stonecloaker
3 Gaddock Teeg

3 Jitte
2 life from the loam or crop rotation
4 StP
3 Mana Tithe
3 Cataclysm
4 Aether Vial

Its a rough version but i think it may have potential.

CleverPetriDish

09-11-2007, 01:05 PM

Nightbringer, you realize that your posted decklist has exactly 6 Green mana sources, right?

IMO, playing Gaddock + Goyf as a replacement for Grunt + random 2-drop (in my case Samurai) offers the following trade:

- combo hate
- a permanent 5/6 instead of a temporary 4/4
- increased Legend count
- resilience to mass sweepers (stops everything but Deed, including Engineered Explosives)
- increased sensitivity to mana hate of all kinds
- no reasonable way to keep the current beneficial lands (Karakas, Port, Wasteland, Flagstones) at their current levels
- A real problem with Cataclysm

in exchange for

- graveyard and Tarmogoyf hate
- a 2/2 Bushido instead of a vanilla 2/2 (a debatable improvement because of Karakas)

I have an idea.

Artifact
4 Aether Vial
3 Umezawa's Jitte

White
3 Isamaru
3 Mangara
4 Serra Avenger
3 Stonecloaker
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Mana Tithe
3 Cataclysm

Gold
3 Gaddock

Green
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Crop Rotation

Land
3 Karakas
3 Flagstones
1 Rishidan Port
1 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
4 Temple Garden

sb:
4 Orim's Chant
2 Mana Tithe
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Tivadar of Thorn
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Disenchant

To balance the mana, you have to make some hard choices, but it is a little easier with Crop Rotation. And Crop Rotation is a VERY good card to be holding against opposing Wastelands. In particular, I like the way sideboarding is shaping up here.

The combo matchup should be STRONG with this setup.

nightbringer

09-11-2007, 02:09 PM

Nightbringer, you realize that your posted decklist has exactly 6 Green mana sources, right?

That's why I said its a rough version :wink:

Maybe it would be better to play 2 temple garden and 2 plains and a basic forest.

The manabase would look like this then

2 Plains
2 temple garden
1 Forest
4 Savanah
3 Wasteland
3 Karakas
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Windswepth Heath

I don't play the port in my list because it don't realy like it in my meta.

For the rest of the deck im not sure to play
- 3 or 4 serra avengers opposed to 3 or 4 goyf.
- Crop rotation or life from the loam (or both)?
- 1 Sword of fire and ice (ive been testing this and i like it)

Sideboard looks very nice indeed!

Nihil Credo

09-11-2007, 03:13 PM

My current mana base is:

2 [UNH] Plains
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [LG] Karakas
1 [UNH] Forest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [PR] Savannah

I could only do two-fisted testing for now, but playing Goyf and Gaddock was never a problem, although a couple of times I had to rely on Aether Vial.

It's worth noting, though, that I run Sensei's Divining Top to smooth my draws (becomes even better with the fetchlands, btw) and have moved to the SB the Cataclysms - not because I didn't like the spell, but because it was the least painful cut.

nightbringer

09-13-2007, 03:26 AM

I think that 8 or 9 green sources should be enough because they workt out nicely in the other version that use a splash.

I never had problems to get them in to play like with that manabase.

What do PhaerimmArchlord and Finn think of the adition of green by the way?

sammiel

09-13-2007, 06:11 PM

Uh, Force of Will in response to vial activation?

and are you seriously talking about making the deck 3 color? it's hard to follow your post.

Nihil Credo

09-13-2007, 07:50 PM

How much are you actually using the Guildmage's abilities? Three mana is a ton. I sometimes win without even seeing three mana in this deck.

Also, Gaddock stops Deed and EE even better (ie. no need to keep three mana open all the time). With that guy in the deck, Guildmage becomes a bad Benalish Trapper mixed with a terrible Hokori, Dust Drinker (and Hokori was terrible already).

PS: I think "midnight oil" is code for some sort of illegal hippie pinko commie drug, which may explain PhaerimmArchlord's impaired syntax.

Faluzure

09-14-2007, 12:00 AM

Also, Gaddock stops Deed and EE even better (ie. no need to keep three mana open all the time). .

How does Gaddock stop Deed? Deed is :1::b::g:

Tacosnape

09-14-2007, 01:34 AM

Maybe the situations are different here, but this is all starting to sound eerily like the endless attempts to splash several colors into Angel Stompy that never quite panned out. This -is- a white deck.

Teeg is a powerhouse, and so is Mage, but going for both might be going too far.

Amoeba-

09-14-2007, 01:52 AM

If Sphere of Resistance is a consideration among any of you, try Glowrider instead. Just FYI

smoky squirrel

09-14-2007, 02:20 AM

I play sphere in my sideboard, and not glowrider. Sphere comes down one turn earlier, and that is important in the matchups where you side it in (Combo and ********)

nightbringer

09-14-2007, 03:33 AM

Teeg is a powerhouse, and so is Mage, but going for both might be going too far

I agree 2 colors is a bit over the top in this deck.
I do think that green is the thing this deck needs however.

TheRock

09-14-2007, 08:22 AM

I'm still not seeing Teeg. Granted, combo probably isn't the measly 15% of the format that it was a few months, but it doesn't look like it has any real impact on any combo matchup unless you follow it up with Explosives for Empty the Warrens or a discard spell -- or just...SOMETHING. It does nothing to Ichorid unless you run Explosives or Prison and all Breakfast has to do is run a different bounce spell and actually use their Forces and Therapies.

And let's be real - you can't even consistently make Tarmogoyf much bigger than SotPC unless your opponent does the work for you. On top of that, I don't think it'll be bigger than Grunt that much and Grunt has a very nice bonus. Where is all of the Dark Confidant, Brainstorm, Meddling Mage, Stifle, Duress, and Cabal Therapy hype?

As things stand, I'm going to need much more proof that green is the best color to splash. I've been winning far too many games against other decks with black and blue cards and Explosives.

Maveric78f

09-14-2007, 08:31 AM

It's not because you win the mirror that your deck is better.

TheRock

09-14-2007, 10:08 AM

It's not because you win the mirror that your deck is better.

I may be misunderstanding you (and if I am, I'll change my post), but how does running green make the mirror matchup better? Pumping Tarmogoyf sure isn't easy and Teeg is just a 2/2 legend.

Resolving Dark Confidant or getting two shots out of a Therapy is far better than anything green can do in the mirror. I would probably argue that blue is better in the mirror too if you're using Brainstorm.

Does green fix the card quality problem D&T has? Nope. Teeg can be card advantage though, and I do like it because of that. But more often that not, Teeg isn't Bob.

technogeek5000

09-19-2007, 09:01 AM

Alright i think gaddock teeg is great but i dont think him and goyf warrant the green splash over the blue or black. Storm combo is on a huge decline so teeg wont be hitting tendrills, etw, and belcher often enough. Also this deck wont be able to utilize tarmogoyf effectively or as effectivley as the oter decks in the format can. The green splash doesnt realy improve any of the matchups or it improves the wrong matchups. Aggro has always been easy for this deck to deal with and the goyf only makes this deck beat on a dead horse. The black splash gives this deck the card advantage problem it has and better tools against combo, plus it gives it a bunch of other great sideboard options. Also we have neo duress to look forward to.

Also in the non green lists i have been noticing a lack of maindeck grunt. This card hits on all the goyf decks hard and makes the ichorid matchup easier

Maveric78f

09-19-2007, 09:04 AM

Also this deck wont be able to utilize tarmogoyf effectively or as effectivley as the oter decks in the format can.

Do you mean that our tarmogoyfs will be smaller than the opponents' tarmogoyfs ?

kicks_422

09-19-2007, 09:10 AM

I think he meant you won't be able to make it grow by yourself when you're playing with it.

Damn, that sounded bad.

CleverPetriDish

09-20-2007, 02:36 PM

Geek, we have been hearing about your build with black for some time How about a list?

technogeek5000

09-20-2007, 07:51 PM

Umm i havent worked on this deck for a while. My current list is the one is posted on the first page.

Lands(22)
3 plains
4 scrubland
7 fetches
4 wasteland
4 karakas

Creatures(21)
4 serra avenger
4 Silver knight
4 Dark confidant
3 Mangara
3 Isamaru
3 jotun grunt

Control(10)
4 Stp
3 mana tithe
3 Cataclysm

Utility(7)
4 Vial
3 Jitte

Sideboard
4 Chalice
4 Tormod's crypt
3 Duress
3 E plauge
1 Cataclysm

Im thinking of taking out the mana tithes and putting in some of the new neo duresses in its place. I dont run stonecloaker in my black list because there is much better things i can be doing with my mana when im drawing 2 cards a turn off of confidant.

ebbitten

09-22-2007, 02:20 PM

Theres a new artifact coming out, :2: noncreature spells costs 1 more; seems like it could be a very very good anti combo bomb.

APriestOfGix

09-22-2007, 02:35 PM

I think he meant you won't be able to make it grow by yourself when you're playing with it.

Damn, that sounded bad.

Mine grows just fine when i play with it.

(yes thats supposed to sound bad)

all that matters is it's bigger than anything else at 2 mana, since it's usually a 3/4 or a 4/5

burkey_boy

09-22-2007, 08:44 PM

Theres a new artifact coming out, :2: noncreature spells costs 1 more; seems like it could be a very very good anti combo bomb.

glowrider bettter?

Zilla

09-22-2007, 08:58 PM

glowrider bettter?
Depends. The fact that Glowrider's a clock is a major boon against combo. Then again, the fact that it's a full turn slower is one of the things making it a questionable inclusion in the first place; turn 3 disruption for combo is often going to be a turn too late.

Finn

09-23-2007, 09:49 AM

Eck

This card actually presents a bit of a problem. A good proble, don't get me wrong, but a problem. With the removal of Glowrider, the deck has gained a lot of noncreature spells. Glowrider was too slow by a turn quite often. It was maddening at times, so this sucker fits the bill. It is certainly better than Sphere of Resistence. We just have to watch the problems it can create. That said, I played Sphere right up until recently, when I exchanged it for Orim's Chant. Now, I suppose it deserves some reconsideration.

chmoddity

09-26-2007, 12:19 PM

I have been in Athens, GA for three weeks (Go Bulldogs!!). Got home Monday night. I only had two decks with me, and they were just for emergency - you know the kind. One was classic U/W Landstill and one was D+T. To my shock and delight, there was a Legacy tournament with 28 entries at a nearby card store my first weekend there and another one with 17 this past Sunday. I can't recall the name of the store. I chose D+T of course.

I have never had such a run in all my life. I had one game loss in 13 rounds of play and picked up 4 duals for each of my two 1st place finishes. I had no idea that there was anything going on for Legacy in these places. Why don't we ever hear about it?

This is what I used.

White
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mana Tithe
2 True Believer
4 Serra Avenger
3 Silver Knight
2 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Stonecloaker
3 Cataclysm

Artifact
4 Aether Vial
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Land
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Flagstones of Trokair
10 Plains

board
1 Silver Knight
2 True Believer
4 Orim's Chant
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Tivadar of Thorn
1 Disenchant
1 Seal of Cleansing

Some of the decks I saw were:
Goblins (lots)
Burn
MUC
Threshold
Belcher
Zoo
ATS
various Tarmogoyf decks
random crap

I faced Threshold in the finals both times. UGr Thresh was my one game loss. He had me down with Counterbalance.

Faluzure

09-26-2007, 12:26 PM

I have been in Athens, GA for three weeks (Go Bulldogs!!). Got home Monday night. I only had two decks with me, and they were just for emergency - you know the kind. One was classic U/W Landstill and one was D+T. To my shock and delight, there was a Legacy tournament with 28 entries at a nearby card store my first weekend there and another one with 17 this past Sunday. I can't recall the name of the store. I chose D+T of course.

I have never had such a run in all my life. I had one game loss in 13 rounds of play and picked up 4 duals for each of my two 1st place finishes. I had no idea that there was anything going on for Legacy in these places. Why don't we ever hear about it?

This is what I used.

<Stuff>

I faced Threshold in the finals both times. UGr Thresh was my one game loss. He had me down with Counterbalance.

Wow man. Congratulations. That is awesome! I think that DL is the latest, right? Which was your toughest matchup besides that loss to Threshold?

TheRock

09-26-2007, 05:17 PM

Faluzure stole the words right out of my mouth. One game loss in 13 rounds...now that's what I like to hear. :)

Are the True Believers holding their weight for you? I really like them but they just turn out to be vanilla bears too many times. It might be because my luck just seems to have other ideas though.

Faluzure

09-27-2007, 04:32 PM

I'm about to play in a small casual tournament with a group of MtG players. Word on the street is that lots of them play MUC or W/B Control.

The latest decklist shows that we took out Chalice for Orim's Chant. What is the strategy vs. MUC? chmoddity, since you had the most recent experience in a Legacy tournament, how did the matchup with MUC go for you?

Brehn

09-27-2007, 04:39 PM

What is the strategy vs. MUC?

Resolve Vial.

And, resolve Cataclysm.

chmoddity

09-28-2007, 07:06 AM

Faluzure

09-28-2007, 09:32 AM

Funny you should say that. I faced MUC and won game one due to drawing two Stonecloakers and making his Vedalken Shackles fail just long enough to pound him. He got flustered and kept a one land hand game two. I had a very aggressive hand and he scooped by turn 6 or something. I played no Vials or Cataclysms in either game, but both would clearly have been bombs.

That matchup scared the hell out of me. I do not recommend this deck against MUC. None of the disruption is geared towards it, so all you get is a deck of small creatures. Unless you get Mangara lock. Or vial. Or Cataclysm.

Shit... That's what worries me. Resolving a Vial means I have to be on the draw with a good hand or I have to somehow bait the MUC player. Resolving a Cataclysm is that much harder. My meta has a lot of MUC & W/U Control, so I'm torn on whether to use this deck.

I also have Angel Stompy, Scepter-Chant, Armageddon-Stax, & Enchantress' decks as my other options.

Eldariel

09-28-2007, 12:44 PM

Na, it isn't that bad. If you resolve a Vial, you win, but your other cards are basically all credible threats too and they definitely don't want Mangaras, Avengers or even 2/2s resolving if they can help it. The fact that you can punish them for tapping out for their Vedalken Shackles really helps (Cataclysm if possible). MUC isn't optimal against decks that try to swarm. If they get Shackles down, don't panic, you can still win. If they can't steal Mangara, they'll either have to keep what they stole or give it back. Just don't attack into their blockers unnecessarily. It's pretty much the same as any aggro vs. MUC which honestly tends to be somewhat difficult for MUC, especially when you play cards that can remove Shackles, that can stifle Shackles (Karakas, uncounterable too), a bomb they have to counter (Cataclysm) and a huge number of creatures. They've always had trouble with Goblins for the same reason and they can't bring Hydroblasts in vs. you. Your best cards in the MU in addition to Vial and Cataclysm are really your lands; Karakas is awesome vs. Shackles and Rishadan Port is great vs. them in general.

Galroth

10-05-2007, 11:52 PM

So... has anyone besides me tested Auriok Champion in place of Silver Knight? My findings, I wouldn't consder going back to Silver Knight.

Basically there are precious few match-ups where Silver Knight is actually better, and in those match-ups it is minimally better at best.

A quick list comparing my findings about which creature is better in what match-up.

Silver Knight
- Goblins
- The Mirror

Auriok Champion
- Anything w/ Empty the Warrens
- Ichorid
- Suiblack/Deadguy/RedDeath
- CounterSlivers
- Survival
- Burn

Roughly Equivalent
- Threshold
- Landstill
- 43 Lands
- Cephalid Breakfast

I suppose it's not any sort of dynamic breakthrough to the deck. But I've been touting it for a bit now and I think others should atleast give it a try, especially now that it appears Goblins is on the wane.

technogeek5000

10-08-2007, 01:07 PM

Auriok seems ok. I dont know if its better against suiblack. I myself am a sui black player and i would just shrug and over whelm you if i had to face that down. Also, since i play the white splash, all my removal hits it and the negator still tramples over it.

JakeH

10-08-2007, 05:46 PM

The version I am currently working with includes trinisphere. I also run wastelands and ports. Here is my list, I would like some feedback:

4 Serra Avenger
4 Stonecloaker
4 Mangara of Corondor
4 Glowrider
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda

4 Mana Tithe
3 Trinisphere
4 STP
4 AEther Vial
3 Jitte

4 Wasteland
4 R. Port
4 Karakas
4 Flagstones of Trokair
8 Plains

61 Total Cards

SB:
4 Hokori, Dust Drinker (meta is about 1/3 landstill...)
4 Jotun Grunt
3 Disenchant
4 Tividar's Crusade (could run fewer, not many goblins anymore...)

Galroth

10-09-2007, 01:49 AM

Why did you choose Trinisphere over Thorn of Amethyst? While you probably won't be hurt by the extra manacost incurred by Trinisphere half as much as your opponent will with the mana cheating of Aether Vial and Wasteland/Port disruption, I do think that Thorn of Amethyst would be better because I see it coming out quicker, and hurting yourself even less. If you've got Mana Tithe or Aether Vial in hand, that will almost definitely be played before you drop Thorn of Amethyst. Jitte and StP may be a bit hampered by it, but no more than Trinisphere would hamper them.

Other suggestions... cut to 60 cards :). Oh, and if you haven't tested Cataclysm, try it out. I'm not saying it's a must, but it seems the more successful builds run it (this is a purely subjective observation). Flagstones of Trokair were included primarily to better abuse Cataclysm, otherwise there legendary status hardly makes them worthwhile. Even with Cataclysm, I only run three. And Tivadar of Thorn is equally as cool as Tivadar's Crusade in your sideboard - worth a glance.

Otherwise I think you're list is pretty cool. I speculate that a build incorportating Thorn of Amethyst and Glowrider could possibly be even better than those using Cataclysm in a combo or control heavy meta. Good luck.

Finn

10-09-2007, 01:08 PM

Faluzure

10-09-2007, 01:40 PM

Galroth, I have been thinking along these lines as well. Here's a summary of my thought on the topic of Silver Knight - and beyond.

1. Goblins has been perceived by enough people to be no longer good enough that it is destined to be down for a good long time whether or not that is true(ala Landstill two years ago).
2. Threshold (and other decks for that matter) can now alter their gameplan in favor of card advantage over tempo ever so slightly. That means more of Accumulated Knowledge and Predict over cards like Serum Visions.
3. That's a problem for this deck. We need to adapt. The first card I would cut without batting an eye is certainly the Knight.
4. That got me going in a direction. Here's what I came up with.

So you lose Rishidan Port and a lot of game against Goblins. And you lose a lot of frankly, random creatures. I really like the upside a lot. The land supply is slightly on the tender side, but only a bit.

Ultimately, I think this build loses very little. Even Wasteland is not a guarantee against you with Stifle around.

What dya all think?

The old build, although good, made you rely on topdecking if you encountered some major problem. I really like the inclusion of Blue. The new "Brainstorm" (Ponder) really helps you dig deeper into your library to try and find an answer to a problem. That gives you 8 ways to filter your draw.

One thing I'm worried about though is the weaker Goblin game. Despite the decline of Goblins as a DTB, I don't think we're quite done with them yet. Every major tournament had at least 1 Goblin deck make it to the top 8. It seems a lot of the Gob players are really excited about the new cards in Lorwyn. With more options with the black splash, we might see some a resurrected goblins because of Lorwyn.

Is the removal of Samurai of the Pale Curtain for Jotun Grunt worth it? Apparently Cephalid Breakfast is the new DTB with UGx (specifically UGr) Threshold right behind it. Cephalid Breakfast also has a somewhat rough time against UGx Threshold due to the amount of counters it has. Wouldn't maindecking SotPC be better than sideboarding it?

SotPC is the card to use vs Cephalid Breakfast since they use the GY quite heavily. Jotun is too slow vs that deck. However, UGr threshold has a lot of burn, meaning it can take out your SotPC to start having it's GY filled again. In this matchup, Jotun Grunt is the card to use since UGr Threshold has to use 2-for-1 trades to get rid of him.

I don't know though, I guess it all depends on your metagame. I do like the blue splash though.

smoky squirrel

10-09-2007, 02:44 PM

Samurai of the Pale Curtain only works on permanents going to te graveyard, it is not useful against Cephalid Breakfast since they mill their library. It is however good against Ichorid and Wasteland recursion (shouldn't be a problem) and very nice against ******** to keep them off lands in the graveyard and as a treshed mongoose blocker. But, I also have replaced him with the Grunt, since my meta is not Ichorid heavy, and the Grunt simply is better against ********.

Faluzure

10-09-2007, 02:50 PM

JakeH

10-10-2007, 03:18 PM

TheCramp

10-10-2007, 05:55 PM

3 Karakas
2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island

Given this mana base, have you considered cutting a Island, and putting in a Minamo, School at Waters Edge?

It is sort of a second Karakas in many ways, and has to potental to be stone cold nuts with Mangara.

Seems like the (slightly) increased vulnrability to wasteland might be worth the savage midgame beatings it would enable.

BTW, first post in this thread. I fully support all the work people have been doing in developing this deck. It is very cool. Props.

Wallace

10-10-2007, 06:48 PM

Given this mana base, have you considered cutting a Island, and putting in a Minamo, School at Waters Edge?

It is sort of a second Karakas in many ways, and has to potental to be stone cold nuts with Mangara.

I agree, Minamo seems like it would be broken with Mangara. You could pull off some sick tricks for little mana. For those of you that don't know Minamo

http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/CHK/en-us/Card79179.jpg

TheCramp

10-10-2007, 07:43 PM

I agree, Minamo seems like it would be broken with Mangara. You could pull off some sick tricks for little mana.

Like Isamaru w/ Jitte is nothing to scoff at for example.

Finn

10-10-2007, 08:38 PM

Galroth

10-10-2007, 09:20 PM

A question in general, but particularly directed at chmoddity.

The weakest spots in my build are the two drop creatures. I have 12 slots dedicated to them and I wouldn't mind using less if somebody can present a fantastic 1 drop or 3 drop beyond isamaru, mangara, and glowrider. Wizards just makes alot of great 2 drops... like I said though, they're still my weakest slots.

I feel 4x Serra Avenger and 2x Jotun Grunt are a must (Jotun for any meta bound to see a good turnout of thresh). But that leaves me with 6x spots left. I really like how Samurai of the Pale Curtain has been performing, so 3x went to him. I chose Auriok Champion over Silver Knight, but there are a whole slew of fantastic 2-drops out there that I want to know if I'm missing something. I was considering True Believer for awhile. He was pretty much main-decked or sideboarded. I saw your tremendous winning streak included 2x True Believer main-deck. Do I have recommendations for True Believer or any other creature?

APriestOfGix

10-11-2007, 01:57 AM

Nihil Credo

10-11-2007, 08:09 AM

Combo will just EtW for 12 in the face of a True Believer. Or Belcher the Believer first. I have never really liked Believer in the MD.

Faluzure

10-11-2007, 08:38 AM

Hey, we could use it to untap the Jitte!!!! Excellent.

Seriously, though. That is a pretty good idea. I used this card back when the deck was only casual and it was actually quite good.

I remember those decks. You had a W/G and a W/U. I really liked the W/U because you had multiple tricks and Cloud of Faeries was in that deck.

Hmm.... I'm really liking this dual color blue list. I need to decide if I'm going to chance it and play it at a small local legacy tournament. I banked on playing the mono-white. The problem is that I have no clue what my local metagame is.

Galroth

10-11-2007, 11:02 AM

I first thought of maindecking Auriok Champion for Empty the Warrens. Turns out she's pretty damn good and usually buys you enough time to deal with all of the tokens.

Where does True Believer really shine? In the Belcher matchup I don't know if Believer or Champion is better. Tendrils combo believer is better. Deadguy and other black disruption decks True Believer is probably better, but Auriok Champion would still be my second choice for a creature on account of pro-black. Solidarity Believer is strictly better. Do I worry about these matchups enough to weaken my aggro matchups slightly?

I'd really like to here some peoples experience concerning the viability of True Believer.

Or I could just run a splash and not worry about these slots...

chmoddity

10-11-2007, 02:27 PM

True Believer worked well enough for me. It is one of those cards that you prefer not to draw later in the game, but it can randomly nerf entire decks. I was always very happy to have it in the sb. The thing is, it would be better in the deck now that it has some search.

Finn

10-12-2007, 07:49 PM

Well, I am quite happy with the new build. Splashing blue makes a lot of things work better so far. I don't know about Daze, though. I mean, it has been decent (certainly better than Mana Tithe), but I wish that Rishidan Port were back in the deck to go with it.

Don Tamac

10-18-2007, 08:40 AM

I've been following this thread a while, but not yet started to play the deck. But I will, since my Angel Stompy fails me in my meta...

Just one question...

Your Vials, how many counters should you have on them? Different on first and second? How many on first, and how many on second?
Will assume that I don't get a third in play...

ClearSkies

10-18-2007, 08:45 AM

I just leave my vial at 3 for the Mangara lock. Either that, or two. Don't really have much stuff that cost 1 except Isamaru.

Barook

10-18-2007, 08:52 AM

Just asking: Could Venser find a way into the blue splash builds?

Pros: Can remand/bounce expensive spells (which goes very well with mana denial), saves own, important permanents from removal, Flash, legendary

Cons: His casting cost - 4 mana and :u::u: in it.

His casting costs really ruins him, but probably he could be worth 1-2 slots for testing? :confused:

Faluzure

10-18-2007, 09:05 AM

Hmm, Venser would be interesting in this deck with a blue splash... especially since he's a legend.

Just a FYI. I took the original build (Mono-W) to a local small Legacy tournament (16 people) and got 1st place. I can write a write-up about it, but not at the moment. I have a couple projects to do at work.

Here are the decks that were there:
Legacy Rock
Belcher
Mono-R Goblins
MUC
Mono-Blue Counter-Top
B/R Dragonstorm
Psychatog
W/U Control w/ Beaters
W/U Rebels
W/B Angel of Despair / Armageddon
Mono-B Shadow Aggro
Mono-B (Not sure, it got knocked out early)
3-Color Enchantress

The other two decks I don't remember. They weren't very good though.

Don Tamac

10-19-2007, 02:24 PM

ClearSkies

10-19-2007, 02:58 PM

Perhaps I have missed it, but I haven't seen any sideboard strategies... What goes in and out versus the most common decks, I.E. DTB's and established decks?

I'll be playing in a local tournament soon, and I know that the following decks will be there: RGSA, Enchantress, 9-land Stompy, WWW, Suicide Black, Trinity Green, UG Madness, RG Beatdown, Fungus, CRET Belcher, Affinity, UGwr ***** and Ichorid Combo. Sideboarding help for these decks will be most appreciated.

There will also be a Thrull-aggro deck splashed white for moat... Win condition apparently is giving all thrulls flying. It is the construction of one of the best players I've met, and will probably be amazing... but I don't have the decklist yet.

I think some of the sideboarding is kind of obvious.

It is kind of easy to see that Glow Riders and Believers go in and slower creatures go out versus Combo.

Aura of Silence do kind of wreck enchantress and slow down Affinity. If you get it out fast, it can also slow down combo.

Orim's chant can also be good versus combo (and maybe control).

Death and Taxes should have a good matchup to many of the aggro matches, at least when I tried it.

JakeH

10-19-2007, 03:41 PM

Combo will just EtW for 12 in the face of a True Believer. Or Belcher the Believer first. I have never really liked Believer in the MD.

Believer stops Hymn to Tourach, Thoughtseize, Duress, Tendrils of Agony, Diabolic Edict, and burn to the face. With so much black being splashed and played because of threshold, Believer seems to come in handy. I try to keep 2 MD just for the hell of it. But i must agree, its hard to fit it into this deck due to so many good 2cc choices.

What is everybody's opinion on Whipcorder? I love that card! I prefer it over SotPC.

ClearSkies

10-19-2007, 04:00 PM

Believer stops Hymn to Tourach, Thoughtseize, Duress, Tendrils of Agony, Diabolic Edict, and burn to the face. With so much black being splashed and played because of threshold, Believer seems to come in handy. I try to keep 2 MD just for the hell of it. But i must agree, its hard to fit it into this deck due to so many good 2cc choices.

What is everybody's opinion on Whipcorder? I love that card! I prefer it over SotPC.

Oh yea, I forgot Believer stops all those.

Whipcorder and Samurai of the Pale Curtain have different functions. You can't really attack with Whipcorder if you plan on using its ability, but Samurai's ability will work as long as it is in play.

I would say that it would depend on your metagame though...

Faluzure

10-19-2007, 04:06 PM

Oh yea, I forgot Believer stops all those.

Whipcorder and Samurai of the Pale Curtain have different functions. You can't really attack with Whipcorder if you plan on using its ability, but Samurai's ability will work as long as it is in play.

I would say that it would depend on your metagame though...

Agreed. SotPC is significantly stronger against decks like Ichorid, Wasteland heavy, and Threshold.

JakeH

10-19-2007, 04:25 PM

Oh yea, I forgot Believer stops all those.

Whipcorder and Samurai of the Pale Curtain have different functions. You can't really attack with Whipcorder if you plan on using its ability, but Samurai's ability will work as long as it is in play.

I would say that it would depend on your metagame though...

Yeah, my meta is creature heavy with the exception of a couple of landstill decks and the occasional johnny combo player. I like Samurai's ability, but like i said - the 2cc slot in D+T has WAY too many options!!

Galroth

10-19-2007, 11:13 PM

Faluzure

10-20-2007, 03:23 AM

How important is everyone finding wasteland and port in their builds? I've been running 2 ports lately (that's it) and I don't seem to be missing them. I like tapping down an opponents remaining land after a cataclysm, but otherwise it just doesn't seem a stellar play. Anyone else? Are they imperative? Or something easily cut?

I sort of agree with you. I've found more than 2 ports really lacking vs most decks matchups. It really hurts when someone is playing multi-color and happen to be mana-hosed in one color.

However, I do just want to throw it out there that whenever I'm playing vs a Blue/Blue splash deck, nothing hurts worse than tapping their Island to prevent them from counterspelling you. Those have been the only times I'm glad I have 4 Rishadan Ports.

smoky squirrel

10-20-2007, 08:26 AM

My manabase is 10 Plains, 4 Karakas, 3 Flagstones, 4 Wasteland, and that works fine for me. I just don't want to be colorscrewed after I play Cataclysm.

Finn

10-20-2007, 11:25 AM

I, for one, really like Port better. When you Cataclysm, you can fetch a Plains with the Flagstones, and keep Port as your one land (and perhaps play another). That way, you can tap down their remaining land. Wasteland rarely worked that way for me since I was apt to use it immediately long before then. Rishidan Port is better with sweepers.

JakeH

10-26-2007, 01:36 PM

OK, so I attended a tournament this past sunday at Tara Angel's Magic in Tallahassee, FL. I played D+T with the following list:

4-mangara
4-stonecloaker
4-serra avenger
4-glowrider
3-isamaru
3-whipcorder
3-jitte
3-trinisphere
4-aether vial
4-STP
4-karakas
4-rishadan port
4-wasteland
4-flagstones of trokair
8-plains

10 Players:
1 Death and Taxes (Me)
1 Red Death
1 Enchantress
1 Rifter
1 UGw Thresh w/ counter-top
1 CRET Belcher
1 Mono Black Control w/ Pox
3 Miscelaneous (can't remember)

SB:
4-jotun grunt
4-true beleiver
4-disenchant
3-hokori, dust drinker

Match 1: Enchantress
G1:
He starts drawing cards on turn three and casts exploration on turn 4. I never catch up, he wins.
G2:
I play. Open plains + vial, then port next turn, and then third turn trinisphere. I get him in a good mana lock and kill him with fliers.
G3:
I start to realize how bad of a matchup this is. Once he starts drawing cards, it is nearly impossible to catch up.

Match 2: (1-2-0) UGw Thresh w/ counter-top
G1:
I get a mangara and 2 stonecloakers. I remove 2 Tarmogoyfs, drop a trinisphere, and end up killing him with the pair of stonecloakers.
G2:
I see 3 lands in 17 draws! Luckily i had 2 aether vials so i was able to hang on... for a little while - he stifled one of my wastelands and another one went through. my third land was a port. We smack each other around for a little while, but i never see enough land to do anything and he kills me.
G3:
Time is called. I had the perfect hand of wasteland,port,karakas,mangara,vial,serra avenger, and trinisphere. I wish i could have finished that one....

Match 3: (2-3-1) Mono Black Control w/Pox
G1:
He hymns me twice, but I draw into the mangara combo and get him with trinisphere/no land lock. He concedes.
G2:
I drop a true believer and get the mangara combo going again. I kill him with an active jitte on an Avenger.

Match4 4: (4-3-1) Red Death
G1:
I get mangara combo and remove all of his creatures. Then I kill him with fliers.
G2:
He draws no burn and my creatures kill him.

I finish 6-3-1 and don't make top 4 (4th place had same record). Belcher wins tourny.

Galroth

10-26-2007, 02:18 PM

Tacosnape

10-26-2007, 02:27 PM

Why do builds without Cataclysm even exist, exactly?

Seriously? Your matchup with Enchantress goes from horrible to pretty good just from the inclusion of that one card.

ClearSkies

10-26-2007, 02:31 PM

It would seem like that either version focus on trying to stop your opponent from playing anything. Cataclysm just helps achieve a Mangara lock much faster.

JakeH

10-29-2007, 01:17 PM

Well done regardless of the non-top 4 finish.

I like seeing the builds without Cataclysm which incorporate glowrider and more mana lock-down effects. I'm curious, are you running Trinisphere because you think it's superior to Thorn of Amethyst, or just because Thorn isn't legal yet / you don't have a playset?

Also, how has whipcorder been treating you? Have you tried out mana tithe? Same spot on the curve but drastically different cards (assuming you morph... which may not be important at all). I imagine mana tithe might be even more effective with how many 'taxing' effects you're already running. I play a cataclysm build, but I really like hearing about this one. Not really sure which is better.

Again, nice job.

I prefer Trinisphere over Thorn because it affects the casting cost of creatures. Trinisphere wrecks threshold and many other fast decks. Also, if everything costs at least three, you can control how many spells your opponent can play by counting their lands. For example, there is no point in keeping a port and another land untapped if your opponent has 4 lands in play. He will still only be able to play one spell.

As for cataclysm, i will probably be running it in the sideboard next time. Enchantress is a very, very bad matchup.

As for mana tithe, I don't have any :frown: . I just ran whipcorder because he is a good source of creature control. When you activate him during their turn and again during your turn, it usually means you are swinging for at least 5 and quite often 7 or more.

Although the deck has many cool combos and control elements, it is still in essence a white weenie deck. You can go aggro on someone at will.

Finn

11-03-2007, 09:33 AM

Thought you would like to know that the local dealer finally stocked up on Karakas, and he sold all of them. Despite my absence (and my attention being elsewhere anyway), this deck seems to be having a run. Yay.

Bane of the Living

11-03-2007, 03:30 PM

Whats really exciting is the idea of Florida having a metagame! It feels like its really NY, VA, and MA going big in the US right now.

kabal

11-03-2007, 04:00 PM

Whats really exciting is the idea of Florida having a metagame! It feels like its really NY, VA, and MA going big in the US right now.

Untrue, GA has weekly Legacy tournaments.

Tacosnape

11-04-2007, 11:50 AM

What's the difficulty of this deck to pilot compared to most of the other decks in the format?

I'm moderately unfamiliar with it, and a teammate of mine is contemplating building it due to Cataclysm being ungodly in our metagame (3+ Black/Green based control, Enchantress, Goblins, etc.) However, said teammate is concerned about the difficulty level of the deck.

TeenieBopper

11-04-2007, 12:07 PM

Has he ever played any aggro deck with any modicum of success? In any format?

Seriously, it's just play dudes and swing. Don't walk into wrath of god. Learn how to bait mass removal. Unless people start packing Gloom, it's not like you have to worry about hate.

Nihil Credo

11-05-2007, 11:18 AM

It's not quite as easy as TB says - D&T is certainly more tricky than, say, Goyf Sligh - but it's still a pretty easy deck to play. Just learn all the stack tricks you can pull off. In the aggro/aggro-control matchup, prepare to switch roles constantly depending on what you draw.

Iranon

11-07-2007, 06:15 PM

JakeH

11-09-2007, 02:42 PM

It's not a deck that's you need to know inside and out, but it is quite flexibile and your ideal strategy can change a half dozen times in a game. It needs the right attitude rather than skills, although practice obviously helps.

I completely agree. Its gameplan flexibility is what makes the deck so appealing to me. I like the variety of opening hands that you come across - sometimes you have a mangara and some bounce, sometimes you have a vial and an avenger, and sometimes you have 2 lands + jitte + creatures!! Bottomline = D&T is a really fun deck to play.

Buster

11-09-2007, 09:03 PM

G'day,
i've been reading this thread, and have a copy of D & T myself, was playing a white splash blue before lorwyn and since have added green, here's my list:

4 Karakas
3 Flagstones of Trokair
7 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
1 Tundra
1 Island
1 Savannah
1 Forest

Creatures
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Serra Avenger
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Stonecloaker
3 Meddling Mage
2 Gaddock Teeg

Spells
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cataclysm

Sideboard
1 Meddling Mage
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Abolish
3 Absolute Law
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tivadar of Thorn

Havn'e really wanted to put tarmogoyfs into the deck as don't want to have too many green cards as i would need to up the savannahs which means wasteland becomes better v this deck.
Cataclysm i think is a must have won so many games with it, and it with SotPC is the only way i think to beat the 43 land deck.

The addition of trinisphere over thorn i can understand but you would need to always hit a vial to not stuff yourself up, i think, and with it in the deck looks like the deck would be better going angel stompy as can play ancient tomb and CoT.

Has anyone else tested blue and green in D & T? as would be interested to see what they have come up with.

godryk

11-10-2007, 06:48 AM

I think that both splashs are too redundant, because Meddling Mage and Gaddock Teeg are very simillar, although Gaddock Teeg improves the control matchup. If you are still interested in both splashes I will reconsider your manabase and, specially, the single island. If you are only maindecling 3 blue cards you can just fetch for the Tundra whenever you need it. Anyway you can always include some Flooded Strands.

However, I will consider going just white/green, Meddling Mage is not a very much relevant threat as it used to be. And... yes... i have to say it... Tarmogoyf would be awesome, and doesn't damage your manabase very much, you can play a set of Windswept Heath and a single Forest and Wasteland shouldn't really be an issue.

Barook

11-10-2007, 11:37 AM

I agree with godryk - the blue splash seems redundant with Gaddock and that single Island without any possibility to fetch it is just plain bad.

Just asking: How is Gaddock working along with Cataclysm?

Another question: If Tarmogoyf enters the deck, is it worth playing Mana Tithe? It has potential to send lots of different card types to the yard.

Don Tamac

11-10-2007, 03:00 PM

I'm going to a local tournament next weekend, and I've tried to get all cards for the build in first page primer.

But...

Just couldn't get them all. Would like to hear your oppinion on replacement cards. I currently lack 1 Aether Vial, 2 Serra Avenger, 1 Jitte, 1 Cataclysm, 1 Karakas.

I'm thinking about Sword of Fire and Ice instead of Jitte and Aether Vial, and perhaps Armageddon instead of Cataclysm. Have no ideas what to include instead of Serra Avenger or Karakas,and I don't know if my thought on the other replacements actually are worth anything. Of course, it is also a matter of cards I have and/or can get a hold of until next saturday...

Suggestions, other ideas and inputs are most welcome!

ClearSkies

11-10-2007, 05:03 PM

Just asking: How is Gaddock working along with Cataclysm?

If you didn't know, you can always just bounce him at the end of the turn with Karakas.

It would seem like Aether Vial is not the card you want to cut since majority of the creatures is around 2 casting cost. Also, it allows a lot of neat tricks.

Finn

11-11-2007, 03:38 PM

I am sorry that I have been neglecting this thread. Guys, with Goblins on the decline, I would certainly play the Wu version. I have this one built here:

White
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 Serra Avenger
3 Stonecloaker
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Cataclysm

Blue
2 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

Artifact
4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Land
3 Karakas
2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island

sb:
4 Daze
3 Tivadar of Thorn
2 Seal of Cleansing
3 Meddling Mage
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Stifle

Generally speaking, it is alot better against combo, and a little weaker against aggro. Pure control is on the rise in a big way, and this version is a bit harder to pin down for them.

@Don Tamac, you can sub in Hokori, Dust Drinker for Cataclysm (or Armageddon in a pinch, I suppose). The Hokori lock is very hard for Control to work around.

@Tarmogoyf, there is a discussion a couple of pages back on him. I think we agreed that he is not worth the effort, though I would love to hear experiences that speak otherwise.

@Mana Tithe, it is OK if you don't have blue. But Daze is really entirely better.

Versus

11-13-2007, 09:09 AM

Im very interested in trying this out. I'd like to stay mono-white though for budget reasons.

Not to be too imposing, but could someone maybe point out some of the "tricks" that can used here?

I think I understand the basics; Karakas can return a Legend with damage on the stack, anything targeted with removal can be bounced with Karakas (if Legendary) or Stonecloaker, ect.

I'm assuming that not only can Flagstones be bounced in case of LD, but you could also play a second Flagstones, then before they both go to the Yard bounce one of them back to your hand?

Same with Jitte? If your opponent controls one, you could play yours, then in responce to the Legendary rule triggering bounce yours back and replay it?

You could use Mangara's ability to remove himself and say an opposing Goyf from the game then in responce bounce him back to your hand and the opponents Goyf would still be RFG'd?

Can Karakas bounce itself?

I understand it's not simply knowing what to do, but when to do it. I will play test thoroughly, I just want to make sure there aren't even flashier tricks that have completely gone over my head.

Jak

11-13-2007, 09:49 AM

Karakas oracle text says legendary creature, so all those Jitte and Flagstone tricks do not work. All the other stuff that involves creatures is a yes.

94teen

11-13-2007, 10:49 AM

The second problem with those is that you can't respond to state based effects (ie: legend rule). So you can't bounce legendary permanents in response to them dying from the legend rule.

Jourdelune

11-13-2007, 01:15 PM

// Lands
6 Plains
2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Karakas
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Forest
2 Wasteland
1 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath

// Creatures
3 Stonecloaker
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Serra Avenger
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Glowrider
3 Eternal Witness
1 Hokori, Dust Drinker

// Spells
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
2 Cataclysm
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Eladamri's Call

// Sideboard
2 Disenchant
1 Aura of Silence
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Tivadar of Thorn
2 Powder Keg
4 Leyline of Lifeforce

I played a bit with that green splash.

The Eternal Witness are hard to play with 8 mana source. The wasteland are there for recur with Witness... the Flagstone for Cataclysm.. With Cataclysme I need a lot of land, so 8 fetch is not appropriate. Any suggestion to help my manabase?

The Aether Vial complete the Witness without 2G with some success. Glowrider is too nice to don't put the witness with all the recur I can take. Perhpaps, I would need another bounce effect to maximise Glowrider and Witness come into play effect... and synergise with Hokori (even if Karakas is too good here).

The 2 Tutor, permit to reduce mangara numbers. But less synergy with Aether Vial. I wish to find a creature tutor in green with 3CC or less :).

Mirri'S Guilde serve well. Not pitthing able. Give the choice in control matchup on card needs. A 1 drop help. Synergy with Cataclysme to protect one of my enchantment.

My powder keg are for moongoose annoyance. But I think I will put E. Explosives to destroy annoying enchantment has well. Mirri's with a 2 of and functionality are nice but againts lighting rift or any enchantment 2 or less, it could be better. Powder Keg can be use at 0, 1 or 2 in that deck without much prob.

Without the Vial, my 3 mana are slow, but I play rarely without one. And witness recur them has well.

Leyline of Lifeforce is incredible against any Force of will or counterspell. That break the control game. They need to sb in g3 and they cant do it a lot of time. When I sb Lifeforce, i exchange with vials... i fear pitthing needle. So, in g3 I can put back them if I dont see the needle.

(even without Vial, Death and Taxes work :) )

I played a UGwr threshold MU, I had keep off his red land with mangara and wasteland. It was nice to control the game. But I loose g3 by a bit.

I got a nice matchup with a AstralSlide/Lightning Rift deck. First game I was own by humility. I manage to let him draw all his library. RFG dragon with Swords. No luck on humility. I attacked with my 1/1 and Jitte. Got jitte destroyed... with akromas vengence... reset... But I got a cataclysm... 2 rift are going in graveyard and all his mana. So with the two cataclysm, nicely timed, he can't had enough mana to rift me to death... and I won because no more cards could be drawn.

(in tourney does this is good to do? I know I cant put out humility with mangara... so i know he will mill himself out... and win. but took 45 min... how it does if the maximum round time is 1 hour? Perhaps I should have concede and go in g2 for my enchantment removal.)

G2 with 2 x disentchant and 1 x Aura of silence (-2 mirri'S guile, -1 eladamri call) and Cataclysme, I got the upper hand.. stonecloack 3 dragon. Time a cataclysme on his lands at 7 lands. Serra Avenger + Jitte + a Savanha.... I kill him in 3 turn after cataclysme.

It was fun game. I really love to play D+T.

Does a Aether Vial can be timed at the layer 6b in putting creature in game that would not be affected by humility like activated enchantement, artifact or land creature?

I got a goblin match. 2-0 No need to explain it .

Someone got some nice idea to complete a green splash?

Jourdelune

Versus

11-13-2007, 02:25 PM

Karakas oracle text says legendary creature, so all those Jitte and Flagstone tricks do not work. All the other stuff that involves creatures is a yes.

Oh, Oracle text FTL it would seem. I guess it wouldn't matter anyway as 94teen pointed out. Oh well, the deck seems to do fine without that aspect. The reason I assumed that was possible was because of this:

a. completely neutered an opposing Jitte by replacing one with the other before damage indefinitely

Now that I reread it I realize that isn't what he's saying. I still don't know what exactly he is saying though.

CleverPetriDish

11-13-2007, 02:37 PM

Versus

11-13-2007, 03:18 PM

I've read the front page. I just wanted to be sure there wasn't anything I was missing out on.

Just curious if Eiganjo Castle was viable in this deck Finn? It seems like it's tailor made, but that's most likely the bad player in me talking. ;)

gnurbel2000

11-13-2007, 05:39 PM

Oh, Oracle text FTL it would seem. I guess it wouldn't matter anyway as 94teen pointed out. Oh well, the deck seems to do fine without that aspect. The reason I assumed that was possible was because of this:

Now that I reread it I realize that isn't what he's saying. I still don't know what exactly he is saying though.

He was talking about Stonecloakers replacing each other so that the opposing Jitte carrying creature can't deal damage

Versus

11-14-2007, 07:11 AM

Ohhh, my bad. The a-f were all concerning Cloaker. I misread it as things the deck did as a whole.

edit: Man, Karakas are hard to come by! Seems the only way is through 4 seperate ebay auctions.

Jourdelune

11-14-2007, 10:04 AM

porcupinetreeman

11-14-2007, 10:25 AM

Taking a hand with 2 Karakas is annoying... but 2 karakas and 2 flastone and it's two less mana for me.

It's not too bad having a couple karakas in your hand because one gets wastelanded quite a bit.

2 Flagstones isn't too bad in your opening hand because you can tap one for mana , play the other one and get two tapped plains.

ClearSkies

11-14-2007, 10:31 AM

It's not too bad having a couple karakas in your hand because one gets wastelanded quite a bit.

2 Flagstones isn't too bad in your opening hand because you can tap one for mana , play the other one and get two tapped plains.

Yea, that works. However, you can't tap the other one before it goes into the graveyard as a state-based effect. Naturally, when they go in to the graveyard, two triggers go on the stack. (You can choose which trigger go in the stack first, but I don't think that really matters here)

Versus

11-15-2007, 09:31 AM

I'm really diggin' this. So many cool tricks and surprises can be made and I probably don't even know them all yet. Even SotPC off a Vial durring declare blockers is pretty slick. Obviously Vial set at 3 is the most optimal with Mangara/Cloaker in hand, but set at 2 in certain situations can be the right play, yes?

Couple of questions for those who know the current meta. I've never played in a Legacy tournament ever, so that would be everyone.

It's gonna cost me around $80 to build this not including the Ports. I already own 4 Wastelands, is it the general concensus that Ports > Wastes or can I make due with what I have?

Is Silver Knight still the right choice for this slot with Goblins on the decline? Should/could another WW knight be a better option? Knights of Holy Nimbus maybe?

Do most of you perfer Glowrider over Thorn simply because of having another 2/1 body around even though it cost 1 more to play? Or is Glowrider better in that it can Vialed in as a responce to a tapped out opponent?

I am totally not familiar enough with TES/Belcher and other fast combo decks. Say I'm on the play, what would be the right time/spell to Mana Tithe? I'm guessing the last one (the kill) or do most players leave an extra mana floating just in case of MT or Daze?

Jourdelune

11-15-2007, 10:31 AM

Be aware:

D+T is not an auto win in all situations. D+T can disrupt itself quite easily. D+T small creatures chassis can be own by the ned RED Flash pet... +1/-1 to all white creatures.

At first, I had a lot of win on mws, but with the time passing on, I got worse MU. The small beats (except Avenger) cannot hold their ground (except legend that can be bounce... but u can't do it all the time). With a good hand it's better. With a real life deck, it's better. But it's hard. Aggro-control could wreck us. Finn wreck D+T with his new baby deck. 2-0

D+T take time to wins. It can control the game. It can put your game to 20-30 turns. But if the player in front on you can pull his win in turn 2 or 3... it's simply finish. Red burn or normal slight, no prob... old legacy deck that are not put to date, D+T will own them. But if the guyz in front of you runs a Goyf Slight... it's much harder.

All in all, Magic will always be determine by the meta played. D+T got nice versatile utility to be put in any meta and have chance to win with a good SB.

For combo, Chalice of the Void. For Ichorid combo: Tormod Crypt (help against any tarmo/threshold/madness/lifefromtheloam deck).

D+T is not in the deck to beat section. It can win local tourney, local events... 1 time, 2 times, but be sure that people will put some white hate in their deck for the next event. D+T is nice if you like traveling to attend event at different place and times, only to win there and then.

D+T work with surprise and attitude. If your opponent know the deck, you loose 50% of his power. It's by surprise, that your opponent do some error. The first mana tithe rock... the second is rare to come by.

D+T struggle a lot on the red deck with LED putting big creature in play continually. D+T is more control-aggro than aggro-control. On big beast, D+T got the worse part of it. Anyway, it's simply a game of timing and usually with small beats, we got better satisfaction from winning.

I thought at first hand, that it was a deck that have some "place" for some manipulation... changing cards and so on... but the pure white version seems always to have the upper hand.

Jourdelune

Versus

11-15-2007, 10:46 AM

Hmmm, with all that being said, maybe it's not the right deck to invest in at the moment. I was just looking for something a little more challenging than Sui, but not as difficult to pilot as Combo and a lot less expensive then anything with two colors. This was the perfect route for me.

CleverPetriDish

11-15-2007, 02:59 PM

Versus,

1. Why not try new decks on MWS before you buy any cards?
2. It is of medium difficulty to pilot, so you don't have to practice all that much.
3. I don't think this guy has been playing with optimized versions. Judging from the decklists offered, he has got a lot of the stuff that was tried and discarded a very long time ago. Nothing personal, Jourdelune, but I don't know you. All I have to go by is what I have read, and the cards you are playing have been found to be inferior by the practice of others - myself included.
4. Glowrider is bad with Cataclysm. Cataclysm is critical, so Glowrider is not being played by anyone I know these days.
5. Try not to stray too much from the central strategy of the decks in the opening post. There is plenty of room for meta changes without disrupting the core.
6. Don't use Silver Knight unless you are sure Goblins will be there in force.
7. You Mana Tithe against TES/Belcher on turn one if you can. Do not tap out for a Vial or Hound or anything. You need to buy time with it. Do NOT wait to counter Tendrils. The storm trigger will kill you if you do.

Versus

11-15-2007, 03:37 PM

I'd love to, but I don't have internet at home (long story). I think some if the stories posted on here kinda made me weary of MWS as well. I'm pretty rusty in real life and would probably end up pissing off an online opponent.

Thanks for the advice. I proxied up Finn's list from the front page as a starting off point and plan on trying it out when I get home from work. I think I'm getting a little better at looking at decks and seeing what can be changed to adapt to a local environment and what needs to stay fixed as not to disrupt the dynamic of the deck itself.

However, I'm not really sure on a meta at this point, so maybe keeping Silver Knights in the deck is right choice when going in blind.

JakeH

11-16-2007, 02:35 PM

I had a shot on 4 Karakas on ebay, 10$ with shipping. At least, 10$ is more like 9.00$ canadian dollars for me. :D And it is the price of 1 Karakas in Montreal.

MAIN CONCERN:

The splash with rishidan port and Karakas and Flagstone got me too many loosing hands to count on. Mulligan is not always an answer.

Taking a hand with 2 Karakas is annoying... but 2 karakas and 2 flastone and it's two less mana for me.

For a splash... we should include at least, one basic land of that splash... but without dual, it will screw us again. The deck run too many none-basic land to splash it without being own by Back to Basic (MUC) or Bloodmage of the Moon or Bloodmoon.

Anyone had test a Winter Orb version? With glowrider and Thorn of amethyst... that should be a real fast lock. Hokori come in mid-game and we had loose on pure aggro-big-beast match. Ghostly Prison + Winter Orb is a SB tech against those. Glowrider + Thorn screw a lot of deck that have 12 or less creatures mix with winter orb, its a GG for us with our little 2 and 1 drops.

But... Including a 8 artifact for disruption, would remove the creature removal of the deck. That is less versatile. Perhaps cutting thorn and winter orb to 3 and putting 2 tutor for 2 jitte and 2 vial... but it will loose tempo.

I had played 100+ d+T game. The deck is nice if the opponent don't know your deck. Otherwise, the deck is slow, your opponent know what are the thing they should do to remove your treats... it's really harder.

For me, the mono-white have better result just in starting hand. And I absolutely love glowrider and thorn... Glowrider is always remove before mangara anyway (by any deck that run spells).

I will try to find a way to put winter orb in. Will try it.. and try a Trinisphere x4 to compare them.

Does with Trinisphere, a StP (sword to plowshare) will need to pay 4 with a glowrider in play? Going on the synergy of glowrider with trinisphere could be better (less cards) than a winter orb - thorn - glowrider but will loose the winter orb speed of the lock away.

Jourdelune

About stp+glowrider+trinisphere:
No. You only pay 3. I run 3x trinisphere in my build. The ruling on trinisphere works like this - upon paying for the spell, you check for things that increase the mana cost, then for things that decrease the mana cost, then trinisphere gets its own check.

edit... btw, i run 4-ports, 4-wastelands, 4-karakas, 4-flagstones, and 8-plains. the only hands ive ever had to throw away had 1 land in them - i find that one of the deck's best qualities is that you rarely ever have to mulligan...

Versus,

1. Why not try new decks on MWS before you buy any cards?
2. It is of medium difficulty to pilot, so you don't have to practice all that much.
3. I don't think this guy has been playing with optimized versions. Judging from the decklists offered, he has got a lot of the stuff that was tried and discarded a very long time ago. Nothing personal, Jourdelune, but I don't know you. All I have to go by is what I have read, and the cards you are playing have been found to be inferior by the practice of others - myself included.
4. Glowrider is bad with Cataclysm. Cataclysm is critical, so Glowrider is not being played by anyone I know these days.
5. Try not to stray too much from the central strategy of the decks in the opening post. There is plenty of room for meta changes without disrupting the core.
6. Don't use Silver Knight unless you are sure Goblins will be there in force.
7. You Mana Tithe against TES/Belcher on turn one if you can. Do not tap out for a Vial or Hound or anything. You need to buy time with it. Do NOT wait to counter Tendrils. The storm trigger will kill you if you do.

i side cataclysm - the only uses i can find for it is against enchantress and goblins. Glowrider is money because thresh HATES it. As long as half of the top8 finishes at major tourny's are thresh - i will continue to maindeck both glowrider and trinisphere...

Versus

11-17-2007, 06:27 PM

Can I just say the best thing about this deck is the reactions you get from people when you're asking if they have Karakas for trade. Every one I asked was like "Uhhhh I may have one at home...why??!"

I noticed Finn in his W/u version dropped Orim's Chant. Is it not considered necessary or is it simply because of the Blue splash. Would WW versions still want this in their board?

Jourdelune

11-20-2007, 01:29 PM

Versus,

3. I don't think this guy has been playing with optimized versions. Judging from the decklists offered, he has got a lot of the stuff that was tried and discarded a very long time ago. Nothing personal, Jourdelune, but I don't know you. All I have to go by is what I have read, and the cards you are playing have been found to be inferior by the practice of others - myself included.

Of course, the green splash didn't get long in my testing. I got a long ride on death and taxes. I tried different splash with different success. I love to make my own experiment. But... even If I post them, not much feedback have been made, but saying cards are subpar without going further on explicating why surely don't help me either.

I prefer a mono-white version. (really more stable against MUC (back to basic) or Bloodmoon effect or wastelands) I tried a thorn of amethyst + glowrider + winter orb lock. Of course, my Cataclysm are in SB. The lock is fast, and it help greatly against Stompy deck. DragonStompy is really hard MU with the sulfur elemental... Any deck that got more than 8 bigger (5/5 and more or doublestrike hellbent... :S) critter usually break D+T.

I will try to replace the Sword to plowshare with sphere of resistance to give thorn + glowrider + winter orb better lock engine and consistencies. :D ( i really hate combo deck or accelerate deck a la stompy and that kind of heavier taxes should wreck control even more... now Aggro Control is slower but stronger with taxes heavier build than the main list post by Finn... so it really depends on Meta... and in that regard, the shell is really good to be adapt to any local meta). Winter Orb got the privilege to slow man land tactics. It stop any rishidan port user. And really mess deck with 3 drops and more (a la stax). Couple with Auriok Transfixer (to even untap Vial... ), winter orb is more appealing.

The main monowhite list at first page, is really nice. But I like to give surprise to my opponent even If i use a D+T shell. It's harder for the nerds lurking around when they face something taxes heavier.

Of course, withtout StP and Cata in main... it become more a Taxes deck than a Death and Taxes.

Mana tithe without the taxes effect are less appealing for me.

Note: Silver knight are nice even if gobo are not in the tourney. DragonStompy, Red Death, Burn or Zoo don't like pro red at all. It is a reason why I keep Tividar in my SB.

Since, I play taxes heavy, my creature are 3 drops to make the deal with vial. Of course, Isu and Serra Avenger save me from my own lock if Vial is not on the board.

After much testing and going in local tourney, I will made a come back for report.

The fact that Finn seems to have stop his D+T R&D could be a turn over to continue to speak about it. The other concern about it, is a lot of testing have been done before the primer was release and so, we don't got cards performance on old test that have been done... so, it is basically, a go try to test yourself without knowing if it has been done.

And even the main mono white list give on page one, don't perform so well in a lot of situation. And in that regard, I understand Finn going on something new. After the shock and surprise your opponent got on D+T, he will always be better prepare for the next one, and there the deck is subpar to any tier 1 deck. It's the reason why, it is not in the Deck to Beat section, yet.

Jourdelune

Finn

11-20-2007, 09:14 PM

Hey Jourdelune. I am not so much done with this deck as I have nothing useful to add at the moment. I am going to Mass this weekend, and this is one of the decks I have with me. Those guys are very familiar with it, and perhaps I can get some new perspective.

Versus

11-27-2007, 07:19 AM

I put a lot of money ($100 is A LOT right now) into getting this ready for Worlds. Did I make the wrong choice? It doesn't seem like it's getting much attention as of late.

I realize combo is a problem, but Chant/Thorns/Tithe seem like enough to stall them out long enough to get our guys through. The rest of the creatures spread out between the MD and SB all have purpose against so many of the T1 decks, is it just not enough?

Either the majority of players are like the people I've shown the deck to who think it questionable or "too slow" and just can't see the synergy by deck list alone or it really is underwhelming in application. My testing against other decks is pretty limited, but extremely positive.

I guess I'll roll with it reguardless. Always been a fan of the underdog.

Joon

11-27-2007, 07:35 AM

What do you think about the B-Splash? It offerst us with Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant vaible Main-Board options and additional Duresses in the Side and Vindicate in the Disenchant-slot - seems kinda sexy to me. I'll post my list after a little testing later, maybe we could even play Extirpates in the Side and/or Therapys, maybe instead of Duress in the Side?

// Lands
4 [LG] Karakas
4 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
3 [U] Plains (2)
4 [A] Scrubland
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
3 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
3 [TSP] Serra Avenger
3 [PLC] Stonecloaker
4 [SC] Silver Knight
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [EX] Cataclysm
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [LOR] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 3 [PY] Disenchant
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy

That's my current list. Silver Knight is ok but not overwhelming, the fact that Red Gro doesn't like him prevented me from cutting it. Maybe White Knight is an option? Protection from black isn't that bad in times people recognize that Smother is an nice removal right now. The rest of the mainboard is pretty good how it is, the Sideboard isn't that bad at all. What di you think about this deck?

OuterCrow

11-28-2007, 12:19 AM

I'm not sure if Thoughtseize is the best idea alongside Dark Confidant - at least not without a way of gaining some life. I would either replace the Thoughtseize with a simple 4 x Duress or alternatively, replace the mainboard Silver Knights with Auriok Champion.

Tao

11-28-2007, 12:58 AM

I put a lot of money ($100 is A LOT right now) into getting this ready for Worlds. Did I make the wrong choice? It doesn't seem like it's getting much attention as of late.

http://www.magic-league.com/deck/38464/legacy_t15.html#Death%20&%20Taxes58249

Brehn

11-28-2007, 03:44 AM

Versus

11-28-2007, 07:17 AM

http://www.magic-league.com/deck/38464/legacy_t15.html#Death%20&%20Taxes58249

Brehn is that your list? Congrats.

Thorns AND Chants in the board. I was going to go that route as well, but didn't know if I should cut my Tivador numbers down. I don't really know how many goblins are running around in my area so I was unsure.

Wastelands over Ports? You've found them to be superior? They were working great for me, but that's all I was running (4 Ports) as far as colorless mana producers. I guess with Goblins on the decline mana bases are less stable and Wastes are the way to go? I wish I knew this before I shelled out the cash for them.

edit: Maybe you guys could give me some input on this? I'm gonna use the list posted above as an example (my actual list is fairly similar) and see if I even have a grasp on boarding. This is what I'd do:

Belcher: -3 Grunt, -2 SotPC, -4 StP, -1 Mangara / +4 Thorn, +2 Chant, +3 Believer, +1 Disenchant

TES: -3 Mangara, -4 StP, -2 Grunt /+4 Thorn, +2 Chant, +3 Believer

Thresh: -3 Cataclysm/+1 Grunt, +2 Thorn

Ichorid: -3 Cataclysm, -1 Knight/+1 Grunt, +3 Thorn

Survival: -1 Knight, -4 Mana Tithe/+2 Seal, +2 Disenchant, +1 Grunt

Breakfast: -3 Knight/+1 Grunt, +2 Disenchant

Goblins: -4 Mana Tithe, -1 Mangara/+1 Tivadar, +2 Seal, +2 Disenchant

Sui (Black based discard ect): -3 Silver Kinght/+3 Believer

Dragon/Faerie Stompy: Bring in Seals for Chalice?

Am I even close or completely clueless (as usual)?

JakeH

11-28-2007, 03:30 PM

Yeah, in a meta where combo is non-existant, mono-white lists are a house. I thought, when a bad Kithkin White Weenie list can top 8 the master, I can win a trial with a good "White Weenie" list. For reference, I faced

Severance Belcher 2-1 (obviously I get one of the "combo" decks, although this was more like MUC with Severance/Belcher instead of Morphling/Meloku. Every game was really close).
Goblins 2-1 (Silver Knight, Jitte, Tivadar. I lost the game when I drew neither and my opponent topdecked his third Ringleader with Vial set at 4 after a resolved Cataclysm)
Vaka Pox 2-0 (Game 1 he destroys 6 or 7 lands, but I get seriously mana flooded :). Game 2 I vial out 2 Avengers with no lands and he doesn't draw Prison or Tabernacle
Ichorid 2-1 (Jotun Grunt and SotPC take this one home. It's so much easier if you are on the play.)
Dragon Stompy 2-0 (Silver Knight > Arc-Slogger. Silver Knight > Tephraderm. Mangara > Pit Dragon. Need I say more?)

I only resolved Cataclysm once, and I lost that game. Strange. Stonecloaker was also pretty underwhelming all the time, I always had one in my hand, but I never even casted one. I found that 6 colorless lands were too much, I often had to mulligan to 6 because of colorscrew. The ports weren't doing a thing all day long so I will take them out.

sweet :cool: I had a match with a pox deck at my last tourny and got similar results. It seems like you did well against your two combo matches. If the Magic-League list is yours, then I must applaud you; it seems very well thought-out. You balanced the sideboard and MD very well. I like how it screws with graveyard-based stuff. It looks very anti-goyf / anti-thresh. The biggest differences I see in this build are 1) only 20 lands (14 that produce W) 2) exclusion of MD Thorn of A., Glowrider, etc. I love the aggro vibe of the list; it looks like it would open up quickly and apply early pressure.

How many turns does it usually take you to kill your opponent?
How often do you get your opponent in some type of lock?
Have you considered excluding Cataclysm, since you said you played it once and lost that game, lol?

Brehn

11-28-2007, 03:50 PM

In a meta such as Magic League -- 62 decks, not a single copy of Tendrils of Agony (but one Tinker and one Vamp. Tutor O_o) -- you really don't need Thorns and Glowriders in the main. I built this deck with the Burn/Sligh, Threshold and Baseruption matchups in mind, as these get played very often. That somewhat explains maindeck Silver Knights and Grunts, but still the dissynergy between Grunts and SotPC was annoying. As I said, 6/20 colorless lands is probably too much. About Cataclysm: it's been a while since I really tested this deck so I can't tell.

Concerning the questions about when I win or when I achieve a lock: it totally depends on my draw. There are hands with Vial and triple Serra Avenger, but there are also hands with Karakas, Mangara and double Mana Tithe. That means, you're playing an absolutely different deck every game. Unfortunately you can't take too much influence on which deck you're playing because of the lack of manipulation, you just have to get lucky and draw the Silver Knight/Mangara/Karakas hand vs Dragon Stompy and the Isamaru/Grunt/SotPC hand vs Ichorid like I did, an not the other way round. This is why I'm considering the blue splash for a more general meta.

Versus

11-28-2007, 05:18 PM

Brehn, how do you feel about:

9 Plains
4 Karakas
3 Flagstones
3 Wastes
3 Ports

Still 6 colorless mana sources, but 16 white and the ability to run Ports and Wastes togeter. If you feel 20 lands is working for you then by all means drop the Ports and add in 2 Plains, but -1 Isamaru/-1 Grunt MD would allow for the mana base above. Just a suggestion.

I'm gonna test that way for a few days and see how that works.

Finn

11-28-2007, 09:44 PM

I would be careful about 6 colorless sources no matter what. A lot of the creatures (much more than in Goblins, which was the basis for the land supply early on) are WW or 1WW, so you are really taking chances. Brehn, if you go the Blue splash, the mana supply is very tricky. I posted one that worked out fairly well for me a few pages back. I got color problems rarely, but also was without special lands from time to time. Again, consistency over "cool things" was the idea.

One more thing for the moment, guys. I played this in Massachusettes last weekend like I intended to (faced Phaerimm Archlord in a finals mirror), and I came upon something. I am returning Glowrider to the sb.

Look at this:
i side cataclysm - the only uses i can find for it is against enchantress and goblins. Glowrider is money because thresh HATES it. As long as half of the top8 finishes at major tourny's are thresh - i will continue to maindeck both glowrider and trinisphere...I don't agree that Cataclysm is only good in a few matchups. It is usually GG. Before you even consider taking it out, just play enough games where you get to see it in action versus just about every deck not called Threshold. You don't have to time it all that much. It is not dead early or late. It is just a huge shift in board position to your advantage.

But!
In the matchup in which Cataclysm is decidedly poor - Threshold (and its close cousins) Glowrider is a major pain for them. Since this is an important matchup, and a since Glowrider can also come in against a few other key matchups (Belcher, Solidarity), I am going to include it for now. The major drawback of it costing 3 instead of 2 has been largely mitigated by the presence of both Mana Tithe and Orim's Chant. That is, I am seeing atleast one of these guys in my opening 7 g2 and g3 often enough to be able to make a 3-drop against combo almost always now.

EDIT: I almost forgot. This all applies only to nonblue versions. Glowrider is bad with Brainstorm, etc. in your deck.

Hopo

11-29-2007, 03:53 AM

Death and Taxes isn't played here in Finland at all and I have to say that the concept looks extremely intriguing. I just have to give it a try in some form.

I noticed people mentioning the deck having problems with enchantress. If your meta is enchantress-heavy, how about some Patricia's Scorns in sideboard? By playing a mere small creature or Mana Tithe you're able to wipe their board. This could be occasionally effective against awkward stuff like Pernicious Deeds as well. And it's instant speed which might be relevant when hardcasting it.

Versus

11-29-2007, 07:11 AM

I would be careful about 6 colorless sources no matter what.

I tested for a few hours last night and admittedly I have to agree here. Too many times did I have colorless mana and no Vial while creatures sat in my hand a turn or two. I'd rather the stability on my end then further disruption on theirs.

Now that Glowrider is being brought up again, wouldn't Thorn still be the better more stable option? Or do you perfer Glowrider as a body and the ability to come in at instant speed via Vial?

JakeH

11-30-2007, 11:58 AM

@Finn

I cannot disagree with you. Cataclysm is a good card. I forgot to mention it is also good against landstill in my previous post. However, running ports/wastes/glowriders/trinispheres seems to have given me more leverage in controlling tempo throughout my playtesting. Cataclysm has good synergy with alot of the other cards in D+T like Mana Tithe, R.Port, Flagstones, Glowrider, Vial .... just about every other card in the deck. However, I have found that when i drop the Cataclysm i end up screwing myself. I would always lose more than my opponent. Even though I would (usually) be in a better position afterwards, it seemed like a bad move. Cataclysm, as you said, is a game winning card when played correctly. Maybe im just bad :frown:

anyway, it looks like goblins are coming back and other weenie decks are on the rise. maybe I should MD 2 Cataclysms or something... I'll keep it in mind.

@Brehn

Ive said this like 3 times in this thread already - D+T is appealing because of its ability to be different each time you play it. I love it!!! Randomness is hard to disrupt and deal with.

Mooglar

12-03-2007, 06:59 AM

Hey, i've played the deck for a while and have been going to over the inclusion of blue...

What do u guys think about leyline of singularity? seems really good on paper but i havent had any really good testing yet >_<

Maëlig

12-03-2007, 02:29 PM

The great thing about cataclysm is that it's one of these few cards that can change radically the course of the game. Sure, it's not great if you have 2 or 3 creatures in play and still some cards to play in your hand (and even then...), but in that case you are probably already winning. It's a great card when it's most needed, ie when you lose control of the game. This is why you shouldn't automatically play it when you have the mana available, but only if you've lost the advantage on the board.
Against aggro, they will usually have more creatures in play than you, so you will gain time and CA. Against control (if you manage to play it), it will make them unable to play alot of cards (and you shouldn't have more than 2 creatures in play anyways). Against aggro-control (I'm thinking in particular of thresh) it's not very good, true. Not particularly useful against combo (apart solidarity), either.
Personally, I've never thought of taking out the card from MD. Some people even decide to play 4 (to add the chances to get one), but it's quite bad in multiples so I only play 3.

Fayt

12-05-2007, 10:37 AM

Death in Texas by Geoff Pederson (Fayt)

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Silver Knight
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Glow Rider
3 Exalted Angel
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Mother of Runes
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda

3 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

1 Forest
3 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Savannah

Side Board:
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Tivadar’s Crusade
3 Pithing Needle
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Armageddon

This is my list that I've been playing for the last few 1.5s I've played in. I don't have much time to explain it right now. But I'll be back a little later to post some match-ups I've had and some changes I'll be making to the deck before the next 1.5

Fayt

12-05-2007, 12:16 PM

-2 SoFI +2 Cataclysm from the main and I want to cut the geddons from the board... but I think they might do some good the turn after a cataclysm gets played but countered. Please post any thoughts you may have as well as questions.

As for my match ups

Goblins
Its a cake walk... the only thing to keep an eye on is if your starting hand is garbage.

Threshold
For me U/G and U/G/r thresh are just another deck this one just stomps, But U/G/w thresh gives me some problems. You just have to drop an early samurai of pale curtian and your off to a good start. With him in play resolving a cataclysm is golden cause you don't help them get to threshold. But thats just pointing out things we already know.

combo stormbased
The main deck has good hate and after board you just have more. 2-0 and your on to the next match.

belcher
Did they go off turn 1? No? ok play stuff you win dropping teeg says NO! to all their win conditions

salvagers
Haven't played against it, But I do play the deck and I would say that it would be a tuff match cause of the deeds and any other removal they may have. They only main deck hate would be the samurai.. so hope to drop that before they fire off. And hope they don't hit a deed.

Landstill
I've only played against a white landstill once and both times I played teeg turn 3 off a vial with a mom turn 2. But i would think this is another tuff match up.

Finn

12-05-2007, 12:26 PM

A number of the cards are the same, and the green splash is one of the more popular recent ones. But you really don't have the same gameplan with the card selections you have made there. What you have there, my friend, is a bastardized Angel Stompy deck. You would be hard-pressed to fit it under what has apparently become the Death and Taxes blanket.

You are missing or under-representing most of the disruption elements, plus you don't have Cataclysm, Karakas, or Mangara. Yikes.

Try those cards out. You will find that it is a tad slower, but it wins a lot of games that are flatly out of reach for Angel Stompy.

Galroth

12-10-2007, 09:26 PM

I saw so little Death and Taxes at worlds. I cry.

So I put this question to every one. What prevented D&T from making a showing?

Is it Goyf? Cephalid Breakfast? Really, what actually hurts this deck to the point where pros wouldn't consider playing it?

Versus

12-10-2007, 11:25 PM

Well, I think I can explain it. I played D&T in both side events at Worlds and not only was I the only one, but the majority of my opponents didn't even know what it was. Everyone had to read Karakas. Most thought it was just WW. In fact there were a few, "Awww, Isamaru? How cute" remarks made and just confusion came when I played a Vial. If the average Legacy player in the know of the format is ignorant of the Archetype, it's not very surprising for the Pros who don't focus on 1.5 to be as well.

Looking at the deck list just makes people scratch their heads. "Where's Savannah Lions???", "Why don't you run MoM??", "Mangara?!?"

I think in order for the majority to take the deck seriously, they have to see it in action while being played optimally. Unfortunately I was unable to provide that. While coming in 12th on Thursday, I did absolutely horrible at Saturday's event. I just kept drawing crap. Never sticking creatures for more than a turn, never getting the Mangara lock, and on the games where I resolved Cataclysm it wasn't to help me seal the deal, but to refrain from losing. I just couldn't get anything going.

Happy Gilmore

12-10-2007, 11:41 PM

Is it Goyf? Cephalid Breakfast? Really, what actually hurts this deck to the point where pros wouldn't consider playing it?

Its a white deck. I think the deck that had the most white at worlds was Enchantress. A pro searching for a good record has to play a deck with many good matchups rather than mediocre ones. D&T doesn't have an auto win against anything as far as I know.

CleverPetriDish

12-12-2007, 02:10 PM

Goyf is not a problem in my games. I see it a lot, but there are so many answers for it, both obvious and nuanced. Breakfast is not very popular in these parts, but the guy I DO see playing it says he does not like the matchup because of all the outs D+T has. So no and no. You know, I couldn't tell you why it hasn't been more popular.

But Happy maybe right. There are no autowins. Well, if you resolve a turn 2 Samurai against Ichorid, that's an autowin. And Cataclysm resolving against Landstill in the late game is as well. Jitte landing even once against Goblins can do the same. Mangara lock is usually enough to sway even a hard matchup. So there are plenty of autowin scenarios, but those things don't happen every game. Sometimes you are looking at Isamaru and Stonecloaker against Solidarity. Maybe the random factor is a turnoff.

JakeH

12-12-2007, 02:45 PM

Yes, you guys are right - no autowins. But what about autolosses? None of the most popular decks dominate D+T. It is funny how few people even know about the combo. The first tournament i played D+T in EVERYBODY i played called a judge to the table the first time i tried to bounce mangara. i found it quite funny; the judge was getting irritated by the end of it :laugh: . as for professional quality, D+T is like a hybrid of WW and Stax.

Versus, what did you play against?

Versus

12-12-2007, 03:19 PM

Versus, what did you play against?

First off, I just want to say I don't blame the deck in way or think it inferior. I'm almost possitive the fault lies in the pilot (me). However, my draws just felt really random. So many spells being 2 or 3 ofs and no way to dig for them seemed to leave me with the wrong answer at the wrong time. I made a tourny report for Thursday in that forum, but I'll breifly go over what I remember about saturday as painful as it may be.

UGwb Thresh: Couldn't resolve Vial, never draw SoTC, and when I did draw Grunt he had Shackles on the table. Game 2 I sided in the extra Grunt and 3 Thorns. Mulled to find the Thorn and he FoW'd it. I even waited an extra turn to lay it down and back it up with Tithe, but he had the :1: open anyway.

Thresh: All Vial attempts were countered. Counterbalance stopped me cold. Never stuck a Grunt. Game 2 I actually had the Mangara lock in place and he Stifled Karakas.

Goblins!: I got SLAUGHTERED by Goblins. A match I almost felt was an auto win. Game 2 I mulled to 5 to find a Silver Knight, but ended up with a single Plains and Port and couldn't cast him. I took the chance he didn't have the first turn Lackey and he did. S-G and friends joined the party and even after I had the Knight on the table he was able to get a second Piledriver and overan me. Never saw Tivadar, Jitte, or Karakas in either game.

Standstill: On the games where I resolved Vial I won, but it only happened once. I tried to play around counters. I tried to outpace, nothing. Then the whole 3 judge debacle on weither or not a bounced Isamaru wearing Jitte created counters and I just got disenchanted with the day as a whole and started playing like shit.

Survival: Never drew Stonecloaker or Grunt, he kept recurring Squee and got Genesis in the Yard.

Standstill: The guys brother from the previous match. Same exact deck. Same exact results.

Like I said, I'll just chalk it up to player error and REALLY bad luck. It was my second time ever playing Legacy out and I was completely inexperienced with the decks I was matched against. A better, more experienced player would have met much better results I'm sure. It did real well in testing for me, but tanked in application. Honestly, it was just one of those days I guess.

Curby

12-13-2007, 09:23 PM

Then the whole 3 judge debacle on weither or not a bounced Isamaru wearing Jitte created counters

Sounds like one of those days... I hope it's soon balanced out by a better run of luck. And yeah, experience and the mental game certainly play a big part.

Just to be clear, the above situation results in no Jitte counters, right? Just as bouncing an attacking Wren's Run Vanquisher doesn't kill a blocking Serra Angel, and bouncing a Essence Sliver doesn't give life. I guess it's a bit different since the creature has the ability in the other examples, but the same idea applies: after damage goes on the stack, the critter is bounced. As damage resolves and triggered abilities are checked, the Jitte is no longer equipped, or the Vanquisher/Sliver is no longer in play.

Nihil Credo

12-13-2007, 09:29 PM

Just to be clear, the above situation results in no Jitte counters, right?
Right.

ebbitten

12-13-2007, 09:56 PM

I messed around with the black splash for a while, eventually cutting ports.
heres my list
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [LG] Karakas
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [LRW] Plains (1)
4 [B] Scrubland
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
3 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
3 [SC] Silver Knight
3 [PLC] Stonecloaker
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [EX] Cataclysm
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Tivadar of Thorn
SB: 2 [PY] Abolish
SB: 1 [TSB] Disenchant
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst

The sb needs a little help but its pretty good, would anyone like to try to tune this to the m-l meta?

JakeH

12-14-2007, 03:23 AM

Versus,

Wow, bad draws. It happens.... Well, im sure u played it as well as anybody else would have. Srry for not reading ur tournament report. I didnt see it earlier. Anyway, im sure u had a great time!

Ebbitten,

Your build looks very solid. You should run at least one more J.Grunt for all of the Tarmo-decks in ML. They do play alot of burn over there too, and grunt is imune to most of their kill spells... why cabal therapy over duress? Where are the E. Plagues, do u feel that Tivadar is better when combined with karakas/vial? Ceteris Peribus, I would make your SB like this:

3-engineered plague - goblins, Empty the Warrens, in ur ML case Kithkin lol
4-leyline of the void - ichorid, c.breakfast, IGG, survival
4-duress - belcher, IGG, survival, burn
4-thorn of amethyst - belcher, IGG, thresh, burn

Other than cheesy combo decks, ur list could take on most other decks without needing the sideboard. If you dont like leyline ot Void, then Extirpate would be the next best choice. SotPC would be good too...
take advantage of the great Black sideboard options if your going to splash black, dude :smile: pithing needle would be a good choice also. it takes care of survival/SDTop/Vial/Deed/E.Explosives/... its a long list; needle is a good SB option. Is Dragon Stompy getting heavy over there? If so, with all of the other red stuff I wouldn't blame you for running CoP in your sb, lol - anyway, im not hatin on your list. I like it - black is a good splash for the deck.

Lego

12-14-2007, 08:19 AM

@ Versus: I'm sorry about your poor experience. It sucks when these things happen.

Then the whole 3 judge debacle on weither or not a bounced Isamaru wearing Jitte created counters and I just got disenchanted with the day as a whole and started playing like shit.

Did they at least get the ruling correct?

FoolofaTook

12-14-2007, 11:38 AM

I've been doing a lot of work with Vial lately and I've become very leery of the reactive uses of it. Putting even 3 or 4 total creatures in a deck that are going to be best used at instant speed off of a Vial influences the drawability of a deck greatly.

I've been slowly removing the cool things and replacing them with proactive effects so that my initial draws are better.

JakeH

12-14-2007, 11:43 AM

ebbitten

12-14-2007, 06:33 PM

Well at first i just added cabal therapy because the sb was kinda thrown together but thinking back i'm not entirely sure why. So heres my updated sb:

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PLC] Stonecloaker
SB: 1 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 3 [TSP] Tivadar of Thorn
SB: 2 [PY] Abolish
SB: 1 [TSB] Disenchant
SB: 2 [CHK] Samurai of the Pale Curtain
SB: 4 [US] Duress

the 2 abolish/1 disenchant feels a little weird so i'm open to suggestions.

Arsenal

12-15-2007, 01:55 PM

The only thing I feel is lacking here is a solid card draw/filter slot. In the mono-white build, you're relying on good draws and deck redundancy to get you your answers. The black splash is interesting in that it adds Confidant, which is insane card advantage and a beater, and Thoughtseize. If draw is one concern, would Sword of Fire and Ice do well in here in place of the Jitte's? Both Jitte and SoFI handle aggro handidly, but the main difference is that SoFI nets you a card, and provides Goblin protection. Thoughts on SoFI in place of Jitte? Or at least a split?

Finn

12-15-2007, 01:55 PM

Mr. Took, I can say with total conviction that taking out the Aether Vial is tantamount to removing Brainstorm from Threshold. (this is what Bilbo calls "being on his honour")

Seriously though, this deck actually makes use of multiples. You hold the second until after you play Cataclysm (selecting the Jitte to stay in play - not the Vial). It makes the deck nearly impervious to land destruction. I don't have to say how big it is versus Landstill or Threshold in the opening draw. To respond to your statement directly, I will keep a one-land hand if I have one of these, and this is why I compare it to Brainstorm. And finally, it is the one card I want over all other in my opening seven against an unknown opponent.

Vial doesn't just do any of this, though. The deck has a habit of putting creatures back in your hand - so the Vial gets a much greater workout than say, in Slivers. Finally, Vial puts the combo portion of the deck with Mangara on a whole other level.

I don't think Aether Vial belongs in every aggro deck, but it does belong in this one.

Lifeless

12-15-2007, 04:19 PM

Is there a consensus about what version is the best against storm combo and Belcher? Seems to me that the green splash with Teeg is the most proactive, but stifle is clearly a winner against anything but the Charbelcher itself.

I've been having a blast playing this, by the way. Cheers to everyone who has helped develop it up until now.

Curby

12-16-2007, 01:32 PM

I took a monowhite build without Port/Wasteland (I don't own them) to a small local tourney yesterday and placed first. I was very happy with the deck. The hardest matchup was against a land/loam deck that used recurring Mindslaver. Twice I got out of the Mindslaver lock, and I was able to use Stonecloaker/Grunt to pick out key cards from his yard. The games took forever and it was not easy, but very fun.

Worst play: Playing Jitte when I had a Jitte out. Damn newbie. :cry:

Most Fun: Stonecloaker bouncing Serra Avenger in response to [Control Magic-like spell]. He's so damn versatile it's just sick.

Worst draw: I mulled down to 5 and ended up with nothing but land, Vials, and Jittes for about a million turns. I lost to a janky Tim deck (but came back in games 2,3 to whomp him). Thankfully, it's the only time I really got hosed with my initial hands. I think I only had to mull in that one game.

This deck really does destroy non-combo metas. Thanks for all the work on it!

Quick question: I have all the cards to add the blue splash, or could keep it monowhite (and get Ports/Wastelands). Should I keep it more white weenie-ish or should I add the cantrips and Stifles? Finn's initial post took out the Mana Tithes but didn't add Dazes... does the blue version run completely counterless then?

Another one: How about Mask of Memory for card draw? I know we don't have as much evasion as Angel Stompy, but it's cheap to both acquire and play, so it might be worth a quick test. One problem is lack of room in the deck (as evidenced by all the 3-ofs we run). Perhaps the blue splash can also suspend Ancestral Visions.

Galroth

12-16-2007, 04:26 PM

My current sideboard:

4x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Glowrider
3x Tivadar of Thorn
2x Jotun Grunt
3x *undetermined

Basically I've got my goblin hate (tivadar), additional threshold support (jotun), and my anti-combo set up in the board (amethyst and glowrider). I run a fairly standard maindeck, which includes 4x mana tithe. Like most D&T I've got a strong aggro match, a fairly solid control matchup, weaker on the combo, but half of my sideboard is dedicated against it.

What are suggestions for the last 3 slots? I was considering Kataki, War's Wage. I'm not sure it would be good for much beyond Affinity. What are D&T's worst matchups? 43 Lands could be bad I imagine. I know Abolish is a pretty typical sb card also. Recommendations?

marko

12-16-2007, 04:33 PM

For drawing cards in the monowhite build, i think Weathered wayfarer is a good option. I cut Isamaru for 3 Wayfarer. It allows the reccuring wasteland, with Jotun Grunt who delays the wasteland from my yard to my library. I play only 3 KaraKas and 3 Flagstones of trokair (but 4 wasteland), it's enough whith 3 Wayfarer.
@Kirbysdl : Not easy to find a slot for Mask of memory. For me Jitte is too essential to cut it. Perhaps you can try : - 1 Aether vial, -2 Jitte, for +2 enlightened tutor, +1 mask of memory, but i think is bad.

Actually, what is your sideboard in the monowhithe build ?

Xurcks

12-16-2007, 04:36 PM

Galroth,my current sideboard is almost like yours except using 4 Orim's Chant in place of 1 Tivadar of Thorn and the 3 undetermined spaces.
It helps A LOT versus some combo decks,i've been using them and they have been really helpful 'till now.

Curby

12-16-2007, 10:09 PM

@Kirbysdl : Not easy to find a slot for Mask of memory. For me Jitte is too essential to cut it. Perhaps you can try : - 1 Aether vial, -2 Jitte, for +2 enlightened tutor, +1 mask of memory, but i think is bad.

Actually, what is your sideboard in the monowhithe build ?

I agree that the decklist is tight, but if people can find room for 4 Confidants, it should be possible to add a couple of Masks. :wink: The bigger problem is how often Mask will be useful, given that we need to hit the opponent for it to work.

My board was pretty janky, since I'm still building the deck:

2 Disenchant (should be Abolish?)
2 Aura of Silence (Surprisingly useful, but perhaps should be Seals)
1 Jotun Grunt (2 in the main)
1 Umezawa's Jitte (3 in the main)
3 True Believer (Woulda been fun against Mindslaver)
4 Thorn of Amethyst (Never used it...)
2 Abeyance (Should be Orim's Chant probably, but I don't own them)

My local meta is actually very low on combo... I think I can probably get away with ditching the Thorns and Abeyances and packing more varied critters in, e.g. Tividar and Grunt #4.

@Galroth and Xurcks: any disenchant effects in your main? You don't have any in the side.

EDIT: Ok, I'm once again acting like an idiot. Mangara Disenchants anything. =) You'd need something else if he were Needled or Humilitied though.

Xurcks

12-16-2007, 10:38 PM

@kirbysdl: i've been using 2 oblivion rings in my MD for a while and have been liking them as all-around removal.

chmoddity

12-17-2007, 09:18 AM

Can anyone tell me why nobody else thought to use Oblivion Ring? It seems like a very easy inclusion.

Xurcks

12-19-2007, 05:03 PM

PhaerimmArchlord reappears from the nothing hahaha
Well,come back here then so we can discuss the O.Ring in the deck :P

Versus

12-19-2007, 05:38 PM

@ Versus: I'm sorry about your poor experience. It sucks when these things happen.

Did they at least get the ruling correct?

Yeah, they ruled right finally. It of course was my opponent who called them over. The initial Judge said yes, then he called for the Head who at first agreed it DID receive them. After further protest from my opponent they came to the conclusion that no counters were created. I was pretty done with Magic at that point. It was a long day so I never made a peep about the ruling. After the match was over I took a third judge to the side to find out WHY it didn't receive the counters. I thought the whole "last known info" thing would apply. This third judge agreed that Jitte DID get the counters then asked to read the card and changed his mind to no again??? At this point I was completely confused.

Just one of those days...

Finn

12-19-2007, 09:20 PM

Versus, it does not get counters.

Oblivion Ring sounds very good to me. It's like Oblation only it doesn't suck.

MrSoze

12-20-2007, 03:34 AM

Has anyone considered Mirror Entity in the deck?

The obvious benefits are mostly because he can be vialed out against Massacre/Pyroclasm and save the board, plus he provides a better clock against goyf based thresh, since he's an awesome vial card to ambush against mongoose/goyf if you don't establish control early enough, and he can drop an elbow on a gobbo rush. Plus, if you hit your drops along the way, you have a lethal alpha on turn 4 with the tap out if necessary.

The synergy between it and Karakas and the more controlling aspects of the deck are a problem, I admit, but that's why I consider it more of a sideboard card in the end.

Might be too much of a stretch, but it's one I've considered on this deck.

Xurcks

12-20-2007, 03:45 AM

@MrSoze: I tried Mirror Entity,but this deck doesn't have enough creatures/mana to fully abuse it.Also,it forces you to overextend and open up for 2-1,3-1 too often.You would need at least 4 mana to make it worth the trouble,and that is difficult to achieve(the deck uses Cataclysm also).All other creatures in the deck are either better P/T ratio(Serra Avenger,Isamaru,Grunt) or utility(Cloaker,Mangara) so I have dismissed him for now.

Curby

12-20-2007, 06:22 AM

Hmm, you can hide your own creature or Vial/Jitte with Oblivion Ring so it'll come back into play after Cataclysm, right? If so, the deck with fun internal synergies gets another with the use of O-Ring. Yeay! :tongue:

Nihil Credo

12-20-2007, 09:11 AM

Hmm, you can hide your own creature or Vial/Jitte with Oblivion Ring so it'll come back into play after Cataclysm, right?
Only if you have a second enchantment in play when you Cataclysm; otherwise, the Ring will stick around.

Finn

12-20-2007, 09:28 AM

Actually, if the deck had other enchantments in it I would not consider O-ring. But since the only enchantments anyone ever seems to use is Seal of Cleansing, and since I think I am going to use this in the sb in place of the Seal/disenchant/Abolish spot, there is no problem at all.

BTW, Cataclysm rarely nabs your own creatures. You spend too much time unsummoning them and making your opponent want them dead. Consequently, you usually do not have many in play. For the games in which you do, well, you are winning!

Curby

12-21-2007, 01:27 AM

What's the consensus on a reasonable minimum number of creatures in mono-white D&T? I think I might try fitting two O-Rings in my main, which means I might drop a critter or two. Maybe a 20/20/20 split would work:

4 Serra Avenger
3 Isamaru
3 Silver Knight
3 Stonecloaker
3 Mangara
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Metagame slots (Samurai of the Pale Curtain/Auriok Champion/etc. or more of the above)

4 Aether Vial
4 Mana Tithe
4 StP
3 Cataclysm
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Oblivion Ring

20 Land

SB idea:
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Tividar of Thorn
3 True Believer
4 Thorn of Amethyst? (I don't need much anti-combo tech here)

Do we really need 4 Mana Tithes? Perhaps this could drop to 3 for another metagamed critter or more removal/utility. On the other hand, double-tithing someone is pretty fun. When I get Wastelands/Ports I may turn it into a 21st land (a Plains) to help ensure WW in the opening hand.

Anyway, I like how the Ring takes care of the Disenchant slot, as well as the possible Condemn slot. Thanks for the idea, Xurcks!

CleverPetriDish

12-21-2007, 06:57 AM

I just played a bunch of games on MWS - mostly against actual top decks :smile:

Oblivion Ring was very good against Thresh in particular. I got his counterbalance twice (I think only the Grips cost three in there). And another time he FoW'ed it targeting Dragon. That is quite a pedigree. Big thumbs up for me. The Thresh matchup just got even better. I just don't know why this deck is not seen more widely.

@kirb, I have my 4th Mana Tithe in the sb. You really want the opponent to see it g1. That way, if it isn't combo you can side them out for g2 and still have the tax effect. I think you should cut the Siver Knights. We may have over compensated for Goblins back then, but you see less now. Try Samurais in that slot. They own Ichy and Affinity, piss off lots of other decks like xxLands, Stax, and Thresh, and they are still pretty good beaters.

Curby

12-21-2007, 11:06 AM

I have my 4th Mana Tithe in the sb. You really want the opponent to see it g1. That way, if it isn't combo you can side them out for g2 and still have the tax effect. I think you should cut the Siver Knights. We may have over compensated for Goblins back then, but you see less now. Try Samurais in that slot.

If I want them to see it game 1, wouldn't I be running 4 in the main with the thought of siding some out in most matchups?

At least half the importance of Knight is First Strike, not necessarily Pro-Red. With Burn a DTW now, random Red aggro variants floating around, and Goblins still the second most popular deck at Worlds, Pro-Red will likely remain useful. But Jitte on a First Striker is just nuts. I wonder if it's even better than Bushido. Perhaps another First Striker can be used in its place if you're in a low-Red meta. Or as you say, just run more Samurai.

Does anyone think 20 critters in this deck is too low?

Xurcks

12-21-2007, 11:49 AM

My current list for the deck is this:(need to get MWS again after hd formatting soon ^^)

4 Serra Avenger
3 Isamaru
4 Stonecloaker
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Mangara
1 Commander Eesha xD

3 Umezawa Jitte
4 Æther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cataclysm
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Mana Tithe

1 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port/Wasteland(can't decide,almost cutting mana tithe to fit both :P)
11 Plains

SB:

4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Tormod's Crypt(Meta choice:could be glowrider\true believer\silver knight\intrepid hero\kataki\preacher\spectral lynx)
4 Jotun Grunt
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Umezawa Jitte
1 Cataclysm

Opinions?

C-Aleric

12-21-2007, 12:15 PM

1 Commander Eesha xD

I realize this is probably something that is just there for fun. But when I want to have fun in a white deck that already annoys the hell out of my opponent, I go to Windborn Muse. I also run Wg D&T still (so in terms of defense, my 'Goyfs hold the fort). Since I've had no trouble maintaining the splash, I will probably keep it. Muse sits tight in my sideboard, just in case massive aggro is heading my way. I used to keep a couple Ghostly Prison's in my board, so replacing those with Windborn Muse, and running Oblivion Ring as a 2-of main deck seems like the obvious choice. I've liked having Grunts in the board and Tarmo's main, since generally 'Goyf turns out to be better. He eats swords like a champion as well, giving Manangra his chance to shine :)

I apologize if the green splash has already been ruled out. However, I only really run 'Goyfs and K-Grips. When I fool around casually, it's worth bringing in Quirion Ranger, for the "Holy shit, what just happened?" factor.

Xurcks

12-21-2007, 12:37 PM

@C-Aleric: yeah,it's was just put in for fun factor as I was in doubt of what to put in the last slot,but I'm almost cutting an Oblivion Ring from the main to the side in place of the Cataclysm or one of the crypts to put another one.It has actually been pretty good in my testings and with Karakas backup it was hard as hell to remove,keeping sea drakes,goyfs,tombstalkers,arc-sloggers,pit-dragons,piledrivers,etc at bay giving me time to win matchs otherwise i shouldn't win(add jitte and it becomes even better).And if it performs badly in one matchup(combo,etc),well,the sideboard is there for him to move out.Windborn Muse problem is that if they pay,they can just attack with one big critter and there's nothing she can do about it.
About the splash,i don't have goyf or the savannah's to test,so I sticked to the Mono White build,which have been performing quite well for me during my testings.

PIXIE

12-22-2007, 05:34 PM

Well i am currently running the green splash. Mr.Teeg and captain ugly are just to good to resist. I have no maindeck manatithe anymore it comes in and out of the deck every few weeks (as soon as they catch on it comes out and when they forget it comes back) . Here is a little taste

4x Avenger
3x Mr. teeg
4x goyf
2x grunt
3x mangara
3x isamaru
4x knight of the meadowgrain
4x stp
2x cataclysm
4x jitte
4x aether vial
3x stonecloaker
4x windswept heath
4x savanna
1x forest
4x wasteland
5x plains
2x flaggstones

S.B
3x samuri
4x thorn of amithist
3x abolish
2x O-ring (was more and 2 where in the MD)
3x powder keg

Well thats it.. I have won the last handfull of westnmass events with it. The knight of the meadowgrain is awsome!! Firststrike+lifelink+jitte=:mad: faced people. I like the deck with at least 24 guys in it.Oh and b4 u ask why catalsm is in with teeg, karakas him at EOT then drop the bomb.
Goyf is good this is a fact.....You will see him almost everyother match at a cometitive event.I know this isn't a goyf deck (like What the F@ck i have just been dealing with him all the time) so i will just use him. Goyf blocks goyf good, but my goyf normaly has a jitte in hand, thresh goyf doesn't.
If you want to make people mad start running condemn for a while. Playing against 8 stp's is not fun. I had some in the md and 2 in board. It really shines when your STP gets Extripated,and they swing with goyf and you condemn it. Hahahahahahahaha Later!!!:cool:

Hahahahahahahahaha i hate the auto sign in this is my girl's profile i didn't even notice!! hahahahahahaha
PHAERIMMARCHLORD.........team necro the team you have to hate!!!!
hahahahahahaha sorry for the wrong profile post!!!! hahahahaha

Galroth

12-22-2007, 08:33 PM

Phaerimm

First - As much as I enjoy hearing from your expertise concerning Death and Taxes. Your posts hurt my eyes.

Second - Your girlfriend is a fox! Yeowzers.

A distant Third - Can you expound on how the green splash is pulling for you. Does it really help that much? Are your combo matches hurting due to it? And what of MeadowGrain? Is it really better than say Samurai, or Silver Knight? It looks interesting, but not superior from a cursory glance.

gosumog

12-23-2007, 12:27 AM

hey guys im trying to build for thresh-baseruption/combo meta, mainly thresh

my friends build runs moms and sofis, but i prefer jittes and SoPC, and im going to be editing it for the event.

what are the STAPLE cards in taxes? what cards are matchup specific? and why do people run SoPC and grunt? (i do too, it just looks bad on paper) is there some synergy im missing elsewhere?

concerning removal we only run 4x stp, deciding on mangara/karakas ammount. why do people run 4 karakas? isnt that overkill and mana screw potential?

Finn

12-23-2007, 11:08 AM

You also play Saffi Eriksdotter from time to time. But from what I saw of that meta, it seems that tricks of that sort are the name of the game. And there is no arguing with results. You have a lot of anti-aggro stuff, and I suppose that is good when the common combos are all graveyard dependant (for which the deck is well equipped to handle).

But I warn other people reading this that you are taking your chances when you get too creative with the basic strengths ofthe deck. Phaerimm's Wg deck, for example, does not have Karakas at all, so there is a lot given up for access to stuff like Wasteland and Gofy. He can do this stuff because it keeps his opponents (who see him and this deck almost weekly) on their toes.

hey guys im trying to build for thresh-baseruption/combo meta, mainly thresh

my friends build runs moms and sofis, but i prefer jittes and SoPC, and im going to be editing it for the event.

what are the STAPLE cards in taxes? what cards are matchup specific? and why do people run SoPC and grunt? (i do too, it just looks bad on paper) is there some synergy im missing elsewhere?

concerning removal we only run 4x stp, deciding on mangara/karakas ammount. why do people run 4 karakas? isnt that overkill and mana screw potential?Lemme 'splain

Ones
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Mana Tithe
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial

Twos
3 True Believer
4 Serra Avenger
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Threes
3 Stonecloaker
3 Mangara of Corondor

Fours
3 Cataclysm

Land
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
3 Flagstones of Trokair
11 Plains

sb:
3 Glowrider
1 Mana Tithe
4 Orim's Chant
1 Jotun Grunt
3 Tivadar of Thorn
3 Oblivion Ring

This is my general purpose build. It is strong against anything with graveyard dependence, (including Threshold) as almost all of the hate is in the main. If you are expecting CounterTop Thresh to be a big factor (does Baseruption usually have this feature?) I think I would put O.rings in the Mana Tithe spot. Mana Tithe is really only for the combo matchup anyway, and the Oblivion Rings have been very, very good to me so far.

The basics are:

-Mangara
-Karakas
-Stonecloaker
-Cataclysm
-Jitte
-graveyard hate (I have Stonecloaker, Samurai of the Pale Curtain, and Jotun Grunt in this role)
-mana denial (I have Rishidan Port, Mana Tithe, Cataclysm, Mangara, and Glowrider for this)
Everything else is a metagame call.

In general, using creatures for the disruption (Glowrider instead of Thorn of Amethyst, Grunt instead of Tormod's Crypt, etc.) creates versatility in place of speed. This situation means that you want either a Mana Tithe or Orim's Chant in the opening draw against TES, Belcher, Breakfast, etc. It gives you a turn or two to get one of the creature hosers down. If that happens you can attack while delaying them more so you are usually in pretty good shape.

Samurai and Grunt together is not such a big deal.

Four Karakas' is occasionally a problem, but I sacrifice it to Cataclysm a lot. And the opponent simply must do something about it in a LOT of games or they are going to lose.

Euler

12-23-2007, 05:19 PM

Here's a build I'm getting together at the moment, how does it look?

2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Mana Tithe
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
3 True Believer
4 Serra Avenger
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Stonecloaker
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Cataclysm
2 Disenchant
4 Karakas
3 Rishadan Port
3 Flagstones of Trokair
12 Plains

Sideboard
4 Silver Knight
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Tivadar of Thorn
2 Abolish
3 Orim's Chant

I was also hoping to find out what a blue splash for this deck would look like. Mana Tithe would turn into Daze, and some of my Beaters would become Meddling mages, but I'd want to fit some Brainstorm in there to smooth out draws, any thoughts?

Galroth

12-24-2007, 03:00 PM

It looks... standard. Which means it's pretty solid. In fact, only a few cards off my build.

Suggestion box:

- Up the Isamaru count by 1. He's good by himself, and even better with Karakas.

- If you bring in Brainstorm, you're fine to cut Cataclysm by 1 since you've got a way to dig for it. Likewise with Stonecloaker and possibly even Karakas, though I would be hesitant to do so on the latter accounts. Grunt is probably removed for Meddling Mage, along with a Samurai and... something else. The need for grunt is lessened because Brainstorm lets you sift for StP to off Tarmogoyf. And graveyard combo is mitigated slightly by Daze and Meddling Mage.

- Disenchant is probably better as Oblivion Ring. It's more versatile and only slightly more expensive. If not this, then atleast sideboard Disenchant for the matchups where it really shines. Most of the time you'll be wishing it was a threat or creature removal.

Maëlig

01-03-2008, 12:39 PM

Deleted

Maëlig

01-05-2008, 07:47 AM

What do you guys think of knight of the holy nimbus in the silver knight spot (I know some of you don't run this guy anymore, but well) in a more controllish metagame? After doing some testing, I found him pretty good. He kills mangooses when attacking (unlike silver knight), chumpblocks goyf in the first turns (good tempo in general), can't be blocked by hordes of 1/1s (stupid elves or others) and holds on the field with EE or deed (which are sometimes tough). Plus he's great with all the mana denial (cataclysm with him + jitte on the field = almost autowin).

EDIT : I've been looking for a way to include the mini-rebel engine composed of lin + knight/CoK in a competitive deck lately, and D&T seems to be the best one for it.
The idea is to add 3 lin-sivvi, 4 knight of the holy nimbus and 1 children of korlis. Knight is playable by itself and CoK is never useless either. Lin allows to fetch a knight each turn (eot of course), thus creating an insane amount of CA. Lin + CoK is a soft-lock comparable to genesis + frog and can single-handedly break EtW or tendrils-based combos. To sum up, lin + knight is good against aggro-control, and lin + CoK is good against aggro and combo.
I wasn't quite sure what to remove from the deck to add the engine, since there were little free slots. I've started by moving cataclysm to SB (since it is not very good against combo and aggro-control), but then you have less flexibility for your side, which is not great. What more, this meant a total of 9 3-mana creatures, which I felt was a little too much.
So I decided to remove stonecloaker instead. It was a tough choice, because he can be usefull in alot of situations, but I felt he was the weak spot of the deck. I've never been really happy to see him (especially in multiples), although he saved me sometimes. Also, I felt that the deck had enough GY-hate with jotun and SotPC. The only problem with him leaving was that it made mangara much worse, since you could only bounce him with karakas now. The fact that Lin is a legend also increased the reliance on karakas. So I decided to digg-up an old favorite, namely weathered wayfarer. Now, I know that this guy has been discussed and dismissed, but I think he should get a second chance. It increases stability, establishes a soft-lock with wasteland and gives you twice as much chances to hit karakas (he's also good with abolish in side). And I never really liked isamaru anyways. :tongue:
Btw, I thought about the anti-synergy Lin + knight + cataclysm, but it's actually not that bad. You can cast cataclysm once Lin is in play, that start dropping knights after that.
So here's the decklist :
10 plains
4 flagstones of trokair
3 karakas
4 wasteland
3 cataclysm
4 serra avenger
3 mangara
4 weathered wayfarer
4 knight of the holy nimbus
3 lin sivvi, defiant hero
1 children of korlis
4 swords to plowshares
4 aether vial
3 umezawa's jitte
4 mana tithe

I'm still testing it, but the results so far have been fairly positive, especially against aggro-control decks (if Lin is not rapidly handled it's usually gg).
What do you gys think?

Alfred

01-06-2008, 05:19 AM

You also play Saffi Eriksdotter from time to time. But from what I saw of that meta, it seems that tricks of that sort are the name of the game. And there is no arguing with results. You have a lot of anti-aggro stuff, and I suppose that is good when the common combos are all graveyard dependant (for which the deck is well equipped to handle).

But I warn other people reading this that you are taking your chances when you get too creative with the basic strengths ofthe deck. Phaerimm's Wg deck, for example, does not have Karakas at all, so there is a lot given up for access to stuff like Wasteland and Gofy. He can do this stuff because it keeps his opponents (who see him and this deck almost weekly) on their toes.

Lemme 'splain

Ones
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Mana Tithe
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial

Twos
3 True Believer
4 Serra Avenger
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Threes
3 Stonecloaker
3 Mangara of Corondor

Fours
3 Cataclysm

Land
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
3 Flagstones of Trokair
11 Plains

sb:
3 Glowrider
1 Mana Tithe
4 Orim's Chant
1 Jotun Grunt
3 Tivadar of Thorn
3 Oblivion Ring

This is my general purpose build. It is strong against anything with graveyard dependence, (including Threshold) as almost all of the hate is in the main. If you are expecting CounterTop Thresh to be a big factor (does Baseruption usually have this feature?) I think I would put O.rings in the Mana Tithe spot. Mana Tithe is really only for the combo matchup anyway, and the Oblivion Rings have been very, very good to me so far.

The basics are:

-Mangara
-Karakas
-Stonecloaker
-Cataclysm
-Jitte
-graveyard hate (I have Stonecloaker, Samurai of the Pale Curtain, and Jotun Grunt in this role)
-mana denial (I have Rishidan Port, Mana Tithe, Cataclysm, Mangara, and Glowrider for this)
Everything else is a metagame call.

In general, using creatures for the disruption (Glowrider instead of Thorn of Amethyst, Grunt instead of Tormod's Crypt, etc.) creates versatility in place of speed. This situation means that you want either a Mana Tithe or Orim's Chant in the opening draw against TES, Belcher, Breakfast, etc. It gives you a turn or two to get one of the creature hosers down. If that happens you can attack while delaying them more so you are usually in pretty good shape.

Samurai and Grunt together is not such a big deal.

Four Karakas' is occasionally a problem, but I sacrifice it to Cataclysm a lot. And the opponent simply must do something about it in a LOT of games or they are going to lose.

I know that the green splash is generally poo-poo'd by D&T players, but when it comes to beating Counterbalance decks, there is simply nothing better than Krosan Grip. I know that Oblivion Ring can get rid of it, but the problem with Counterbalance-based decks is that they usually have the ability to supliment the troublesome enchantment with free countermagic.

Another sort of odd thing in this deck is the presence of Jotun Grunts, and the absence of fetches. If you splashed a single Savannah along with Windswept Heaths (as well as Flagstones), you could easily splash 3 Grips in the SB, and support the two Grunts you have maindeck a little better.

Curby

01-09-2008, 02:28 AM

4 Tormod's Crypt(Meta choice:could be glowrider\true believer\silver knight\intrepid hero\kataki\preacher\spectral lynx)

:eek: Man, that's just hilarious. Cataclysm, then gimme your goyf!

If you splashed a single Savannah along with Windswept Heaths (as well as Flagstones), you could easily splash 3 Grips in the SB, and support the two Grunts you have maindeck a little better.

Splashing green for Grip would be wonderful if it didn't undermine our mana base. The problem is that big booms (Cat, geddon, Smokestack, etc.) are best played asymmetrically, and this applies not only to the board but the deck.

It's great if you play Smokestack or Cat and get rid of 3 of your opponent's lands. It's even better when you know they only have 10 "business" lands in the deck and the rest are fetches and utility lands. We play Cataclysm because we can abuse every aspect of it, but that's reduced when we splash.

If we're playing with 22 real lands, we can afford multiple Cataclysms per game and still keep our mana supply up. Once we start replacing business lands with fetches, losing three lands to each Cat might actually mean losing 4-5 lands, and you can't reliably keep the steady flow of mana. Also, Stifle and Wasteland start hurting you even more than they already do (I've lost a Mangara to a Stifled Karakas). It might be worth it if you see a lot of Countertop in your meta, but it doesn't really seem too good to me.

This is my general purpose build.

Hmm, interesting. A few pages back you were saying that the light blue splash is generally superior, but you're now saying that this is a more generally effective build. What changed?

3 cataclysm
3 lin sivvi, defiant hero

How often does this work? I thought the point of the deck was to get a control (Vial/Mangara) or aggro (Angel/Jitte) combo out and blow everything up. Blowing things up is what you generally don't want to do when playing tribal decks, as the exchanges become more symmetrical. Of course you can save Lin Sivvi for a quicker turnaround after the Cat hits, but I'm not sure that it's something to count on, nor should it be necessary in a deck built upon individual creature efficiency.

Random thought: I kinda like Auriok Champion (mentioned awhile back) in my burn-heavy, black-heavy meta. It's small, but wears Jitte as well as anyone else, and can push through blockers against a satisfying number of MUs here.

Ceridan

01-09-2008, 03:13 AM

Hi Guys!

I would suggest that we include Epochrasite in DaT, it´s great with vial and cataclysm, and a real annoyance for the opponent (just keep comming back again).

How much luck have you had with the main decked true belivers? In most of my playtesting games true beliver is nothing but a 2/2 bear for 2 mana. I have recently tested Eight-and-a-half-tails with some success, sure it´s a bit mana exhaustive but it provides protection against STP and can make your critters unblockable, last night my epochrasite kept running past his blocker goyf for the win.

/Tobias

Maëlig

01-09-2008, 04:39 AM

How often does this work? I thought the point of the deck was to get a control (Vial/Mangara) or aggro (Angel/Jitte) combo out and blow everything up. Blowing things up is what you generally don't want to do when playing tribal decks, as the exchanges become more symmetrical. Of course you can save Lin Sivvi for a quicker turnaround after the Cat hits, but I'm not sure that it's something to count on, nor should it be necessary in a deck built upon individual creature efficiency.

Well, as I said I fully recognise the disinergy here. Only I think that it is not that bad and not that important anyways. Here are the main reasons.
Stats : In a game lasting about 13 turns (where you would draw a total of 20 cards), you have an 33% chance to hit both cards. The 67% other times, you'll usually be quite happy to find any of those two cards.
Sideboard strategy : In my experience, cataclysm gets sided out quite often, against thresh (and god knows there's alot of thresh out there) and other fish-like deck. This further reduces the chance to hit both cards.
Planning : If you have cataclysm in hand before you start running the rebel engine, then you will play it first and then recover rapidly with Lin. This is actually a very nice way to play it.
Complementarity : Lin is usually in MU where cataclysm is bad (aggro-control to simplify).
Not to mention the fact that if you get the rebel engine started, then you're usually on your way for the win and you don't need cataclysm anyways.

So basically the only time I see this would be bad would be if you drew cataclysm after having started the rebel engine and in such a board position that you would have benefited from cataclysm if you had not done so.

The important thing to note is that the addition of Lin doesn't really require to add some cards that are below normal efficiency, which would make the deck worse that the classic build in case we don't hit Lin (thus increasing instability). Knight of the holy nimbus is good by himself, and I know some people running it in D&T without the rebel engine. OK, the CoK is a bit random without Lin, but rarely useless either.

Ceridan, epochrasite is not bad (especially in a meta with lots of board control), but the important thing to ask is whether it is better than a card already in the deck. What would you take out for it?
Same with Eight-and-a-half-tails, where would you put him?
There are actually quite alot of contestants at the 2 mana creatures.

Finn

01-09-2008, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by Finn
This is my general purpose build.
Hmm, interesting. A few pages back you were saying that the light blue splash is generally superior, but you're now saying that this is a more generally effective build. What changed?
I rediscovered how important Glowrider is from the sideboard. I had been happy with Brainstorm and Stifle, but I did not like Ponder. In fact, I am not liking Ponder in general these days. Anyway, with the redesigned sb of Orim's Chant over Sphere of Resistence (now probably Thorn of Amethyst), I found that I generally had enough turns to land a Glowrider against fast combo. And when it resolves against combo or control, Glowrider is so much better. He is easier to side in since you don't have to recount your threats, and generally I find myself siding him in against a lot of opponents that I would not have given Thorn in its place. And the guy wins games - a lot of them.

And Glowrider sucks in the Wu build.

Ceridan

01-09-2008, 03:34 PM

Hi Maelig!
I would replace samurai of the pale curtain with Epochrasite because running both is bad synergy. I´m thinking of replacing 2 eight-1/2-tails with 2 wingshards... Most of my meta runs lots creatures (goyf, mascara-bob, finkel, eternal witness etc).

The rebell-engine are really nice, but I think that it may take up too many slots in DaT, (but I have run it in my angel stompy with some success).

What do you guys think is the best SB? my recent SB is:
4 Abolish
4 Rule of Law
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Wing Shards (these are the weakest I think)

(p.s. I can´t understand that you dared to remove the Stonecloaker! He´s one of the decks best creatures because of his synergy, and the spot graveyard removal is great at tricking goyfs and against the increasing survival builds. And the Stonecloakers ability to make your creatures fizzle removal spells+ mangara i wonderful. Stonecloaker weights up some of the losses of not having card drawing spells).

Curby

01-14-2008, 02:56 AM

I took Death and Taxes to 1st out of 25 against a pretty random meta this past Friday. Report here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=198288#post198288)

Unfortunately, the casual house rules mean I can't use this deck again in a tourney there (they like to encourage new deck designs) but it certainly performed as advertised!

Finn

01-16-2008, 11:53 AM

I enjoyed reading your report. I can sympathize with the portion devoted to what happens when you have only a Stonecloaker. I have had that happen every once in a while, and it is frustrating. You almost want to not count it as a creature.

It seems that you will not be piloting the deck again, but I want to mention that, if you do, a simple way to beef up D+T against a meta that you suspect of being little to no combo is to simply replace the True Believers with Silver Knights, and be sure to have the Oblivion Rings in the main over Mana Tithe.

With those changes, you have as good a shot as any deck could reasonably boast, especially in the underwhelming metagame you wrote about.

Curby

01-17-2008, 11:45 AM

Mana Tithe was actually surprisingly useful, and I imagine it would get even better with Ports in the deck. If I were to replace it, I'd probably look for another 1-drop critter. I'd say Mom or Lions, but they seem like outdated choices now. I'm not sure that I need 4 Rings in the main anyway. On the other hand, I can't keep my current count of 20 land if I'm going to be adding Ports (and diluting my White sources). On the third hand, Ports and Tithes go well together so taking out Tithes for Ports is a bit odd. I do notice that I often have mana untapped though, so I should be able to make good use of Ports during their turn.

I like this deck too much to dismantle it, so I'll keep it around to play at other venues. =)

Srovex

01-18-2008, 02:09 PM

Hello!

I have built this following WB D&T list:

Land:
4x Scrubland
3x Windswept Heath
2x Bloodstained Mire
3x Karakas
4x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Flagstones

Creatures:
3x Isamaru
3x Stonecloaker
3x Mangara
2x Jötun Grunt
4x Dark Confidant
4x Serra Avenger

Other:
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Vindicate
3x Cataclysm
3x Duress
3x Jitte
4x AEther Vial

I have few problems with the list.
1) Mana base.
Is having 5 fetches too much for recovery from Cataclysm? should I cut the mires in favor of more Flagstones? I'm also afraid of Dragon Stompys blood moon effects, should I add more basics? In tournament I recently participated I faced alot of wasteland effects. Should I add 4th Karakas? Maybe on SB?

2) 3- offs
Deck does look really janky and bad deck design for it's many 3 offs. Any reasonable cuts to be made? Altough this kind of design is really helpful against decks packing pithing needle, meddling mage or cabal therapy (whit out peek effects). It also makes the deck more fun to play as each game is different. It's also fun to win, so what's your suggestions?

3) Epochrasite
I would love to add him to this deck, 4/4 beater thats hard to get rid off could be perfect (with cataclysm it could be even more better). I think its leagal play to drop him in on turn 3 with vial as 4/4? But what to cut, deck is really tight as it is.

4) SB
This one needs more explanation I think.
Where I came from the meta (27 players) is really random here is some breakdown:
tendrils-combo (iggy & TES): 2
muc: 2
affinity: 3
goblins: 3
landstill: 2
threshold: 1
also: 41land, belcher, tog, enchantress, dragon stompy as one offs... and many various aggro.
History has also seen some pox-decks running rampart. It's not safe to assume that this is the absolute meta as legacy is at huge uproar here in Finland and high quality decks are already starting to man the top8 slots. I's expecting even more furious match ups in becoming tournaments.

Still most of the meta is really some updated table top deck which I think this type of deck should steam roll, as they are not prepared to such strong attack on both air and ground combined with LD (mangara, vindicate and cataclysm can really punish over extension and mana screw).
I also had to fight some Pernicious deed / graveyard decks.

Current SB:
4x Engineered Plague
4x Tormods Crypt (this could be cut to less as I already have grunts and stonecloackers, maybe Withered Wretch? If mana base can support it)
Rest of the places need help. I was thinking:
1x Duress
2x Cabal Therapy
1x Vindicate
Strong package against combo (-4x StoP from MB)
3x Diabolic Edict / Smother (which is better)
to fight aggro decks. (-3x Duress)
I was thinking Edict because in that tournament I lost one game to Kodama of the North Tree. :cry: (could have double blocked but trample damage was enough)
With this SB I'm really afraid of Dragon Stompy. Is there any "I win" cards against them?
Other SB options include: EE, Tivadar of Thorn, Thorn of Amethyst, Glowrider, Pithing needle and Disenchant/ Seal of Cleansing (which one is better?).
Also, it's note worthy that I could MB atleast 2 Engineered Plague. But what to cut?

I hope I didn't make complete ass out off myself, my first post after all. :wink:

Thanks you for all your help! /S

zulander

01-18-2008, 02:11 PM

Why not play thoughtseize over duress?

technogeek5000

01-18-2008, 02:18 PM

Is this deck still the powerhouse it was when Phaerimarchlord was playing it. I wanted to make the BW list because the only thing i need to buy are avenger karakas and mangara but if i invest the money in it i want to know if the deck can still beat nearly everything in the format like it used to.

Srovex

01-18-2008, 02:30 PM

Why not play thoughtseize over duress?

Mainly 3 reasons:
1) Duress has worked good enough for me and I'm well prepared to fight creatures with stop, vindicate, mangara and jitte. As well as traditional creature combat
2) Lifeloss from fetches, Confidant(having lot of 3 drops and some cataclysms don't help on this) and 'seize can really add up. I'd like to use jitte counters to boost my or kill opposing creatures, rather than try to offset lifeloss from my own actions.

and last but not least 3) I don't own any and buying them when facing above reasons... just no. I rather spend the money getting duals, fetches and tarmos I still don't own.

Good enough reasons?

Ceridan

01-18-2008, 03:26 PM

Recently I have been playing Sensei´s Divining Top in my build (along with 3 fetches), and if you are splashing for mascara-Bob i would make it a autoinclude (4 damage from a Cataclysm is a punch in the face). Urborg, Tomb of Yogurt (Tuborg) might be a good card in a W/b build. The black cards you get access to is really nice, but the splash is really messing up the manabase of the deck (and often some of the synergys). Often you get a Duress in the starting hand, but no black mana (or no white mana for the WW-cost creatures).

And I think that 4 Jötun Grunts in main. I have never had a problem with it and most people are very eager to counter it (and when they see another one comming after they countered the first they just get sad/desperate).

I can´t imagine playing Engineered Plague in the sideboard of this deck, Goblins is not a very hard deck to beat, and if you are afraid of the you could use Tivadar of Thorn instead (he´s good againt other red beat-decks and you can abuse him with karakas since he´s a legend).

Epochrasite is a really nice creature, and when you abuse him with vials and Cataclysm he has a really cool synergy with the rest of the deck. But the problem is that most of the time he´s just a 1/1 creature for 2 mana... One way to get the most out of his ability is to run Cabal Therapy instead of Duress, then you can sacrifice him to have him come back as a fat guy some turns later.

zulander

01-18-2008, 05:09 PM

So you've been playing doran.dec lol.

Ceridan

01-18-2008, 05:09 PM

I've been using a new list not quite he D&T you all know anymore.W/b/g with Bob,vindicate,duress,doran,teeg,goyf. So far quite fun.:cool:

Well then post your list :cool: I´m most worried about DaT ending up like mixer where you just pour in your non-brainer brokeness creatures and press the button (loosing all the minor tech-synergies that makes the deck fun to play with).

technogeek5000

01-18-2008, 07:14 PM

Zulander i see that you sigged my last post and im sorta wondering why. Phaerimarchlord won countless local tournaments with this deck, won a few dual events, and toped 4/8 at a whole bunch of other events so its not like the deck was bad. It had bad matchups against combo only which is remedied by adding a second color so when i was testing this deck with the black splash it absolutely smashed anything i played it against. Im just wondering if it can still do that in the current meta.

zulander

01-18-2008, 07:16 PM

won a few dual events
Hrm, I didn't know that. Do you happen to have a link to these events?

technogeek5000

01-18-2008, 07:19 PM

here was one that i remember. Ill edit the post when i find the rest of them because i know theres more.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6072

Edit: not a dual but another one i found http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5937

zulander

01-19-2008, 07:20 AM

Galroth

01-19-2008, 07:41 AM

I'm sure techno is immensely sorry you misinterpreted his statement.

I'm also sure the humor of your sig and curt response to techno will garner you much appreciation in this thread dedicated to the development of D&T.

*Read as: stop wasting our space*

*The irony or my post is not lost on me*

CleverPetriDish

01-19-2008, 09:37 AM

I guess D+T is not popular in Virginia. Around here it is so common that I have to deal with dedicated hate. Gloom has been showing up. I was going to paste a link to a quote I came across by Scrumdogg from the new card discussions about Maralen that went something like:

"Maralen could work...everyone thought that Death and Taxes would not work either until we kept losing to it."

But it was deleted at the request from one of his teammates. Who asks for something like that to be deleted? WTF is that all about?

Anyway, has anyone got the Black splash to work without losing Rishidan Port? The reason is that I thought Vindicate would be good since it could kill lands, but since you lose Port, what's the benefit? All the splash has gotten me was access to slighty better combo hate and Confidant. I'm about ready to return to mono-white.

technogeek5000

01-19-2008, 05:05 PM

Zulander: He also topped 4 at kaddis last dual event. That with all the other evnets he won is nothing to laugh at.

Petridish: I have a black splash list that works fine with ports. here is what ive been using.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Serra Avenger
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Cataclysm
4 Aether Vial
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Scrubland
3 Vindicate
3 Plains
3 Windswept heath
4 Flooded strand
4 karakas
4 Rishadan Ports

Originally i was running thoughtsieze or thorn in place of vindicate but i liked having a out to anything so you dont get screwed against random shit like humlity. That and i was using wastes in place of ports which i realy liked but ports just seemed a slight bit stronger. Theres no stonecloaker as ive stated earlier in this or the old D&T thread. My list just uses up all my available mana and stonecloaker was always the weakest play.

Edit:
I'm sure techno is immensely sorry you misinterpreted his statement.

I'm also sure the humor of your sig and curt response to techno will garner you much appreciation in this thread dedicated to the development of D&T.

*Read as:

|^^^^^^^^^^^\||____
|.The STFU Truck..|||'""|""\__,_
| __GTFO 4ever_w_ l||__|__|__|)
|(@)@)"""""""**|(@)(@)**|(@)[/

Fixed

raharu

01-20-2008, 01:48 PM

Would a creature base looking something like this work?

Mother of Runes x4
Isamaru x3

Dark Confidant x3
Oona's Prowler x3
Serra Avenger x4

Mangara of Corondor x3
Phyrexian Negator x3

23

Mother of Runes pretty much serves the same role here as CounterTop does in 'Gro, further protecting your creatures. I shoved in the Negators because they have synergy with the mana denial plan and the Mother of Runes, which I probably would have slipped into the deck anyway.

Also, how is Cataclysm against tri-color decks like threshold and whatnot? They would get to keep thier CounterTop engine, would they not? And a good number of lands, right? Do the duals count towards the land they have to sac (as in, would they get to keep a Tropical, a Tundra, and a basic Island, or would they have to sac all of thier non-basics, even if they didn't have another land in one of it's colors)?

I love the deck, even in it's WW form, but I have to splash black (MOAR VINDICATE!!!).

Maëlig

01-20-2008, 02:50 PM

Would a creature base looking something like this work?

Mother of Runes x4
Isamaru x3

Dark Confidant x3
Oona's Prowler x3
Serra Avenger x4

Mangara of Corondor x3
Phyrexian Negator x3

I would tend to say that prowler is a bad choice in most decks that don't need a discard outlet (mostly because of the fact that you give your opponent one). You really want to have jotun as a 2-of, ESPECIALLY if you go for the black splash. MoR is not so good imo because it doesn't fit with cataclysm.

Also, how is Cataclysm against tri-color decks like threshold and whatnot? They would get to keep thier CounterTop engine, would they not? And a good number of lands, right? Do the duals count towards the land they have to sac (as in, would they get to keep a Tropical, a Tundra, and a basic Island, or would they have to sac all of thier non-basics, even if they didn't have another land in one of it's colors)?

What does cataclysm have to do with basic/non-basic lands? Each player keeps one land and sacrifices the rest, period.
But you're right, cataclysm is pretty useless against thresh (sometimes it even hurts you more than them). It's a card that ends up sided out quite often.

By the way, I've continued testing my version with Lin, and am very happy with it. I'll try to post some later on.

raharu

01-20-2008, 03:23 PM

@#$%^&*()_!!!

Obviously I can't read cards anymore (I thought it was one of each color). WTF! This is the second time this month. I even glanced at the card online before I posted. WTF!!!

Also, would you keep a Jitte or a Vial if you had to play a Cataclysm? I would assume it's board dependent, but which is favored?

EDIT: why is Oona's Prowler a bad fit for the deck? I don't follow your argument. It's either a cheaper, less cost restrictive (1B vs. 1BB) but weaker Hypnotic Specter or a cheap threat that fits in with the deck's curve.

Galroth

01-20-2008, 03:30 PM

Part of what makes Death and Taxes so efficient is how effective all of its creatures are independent of the present synergies. Isamaru without Karakas is still a good card. Likewith with Samurai of the Pale Curtain, Serra Avenger, and most of the other creatures. Death and Taxes also plays a fairly consistent game due to the high amount of threats that these creatures present.

Adding cards like Mother of Runes or Negator which are better with decks build around them probably isn't the way to go in my opinion. It's true that they work amazingly well together. But you need them together to really be good. They just don't fit with everything else well enough to dedicate that kind of space to these cards.

A question: how have the oblivion rings been working for everyone. I dedicated two slots, and they do work as both disenchants and creature removal. They're just not ever awesome for me. Sometimes I just want a couple of more creatures. For the moment they're staying in however. It just feels like a weaker slot. Opinions?

Current Sideboard:

4x Thorn of Amethyst - combo/cantrip hate
3x Glowrider - combo hate
3x TrueBeliever - combo hate
2x Jotun Grunt - thresh/graveyard hate
3x Tivadar of Thorn - goblin hate

I have been steam rolling combo with this sideboard + my 4 mana tithes main board. I'm quite satisfied with this set up presently. The oblivion rings did allow me to ignore Disenchant and Kataki in the sidebard.

Ceridan

01-20-2008, 03:37 PM

Srovex

01-20-2008, 05:44 PM

That made me think, how good would Kataki be in present meta? I guess it absolutely annihilates those random affinitys you might encounter (it is fairly good deck still. It can suprise you pants down).
How goos it is against Dragon Stompy? Stax variants? Should I make some room for maybe 2-3 them in my SB?
It is even legend for karakas... yay

Galroth

01-20-2008, 06:19 PM

I used to run it to obliterate affinity and stax. However, between aether vial and jitte D&Ts artifact count is substantial enough that it generally effects us as well. Now glowrider and truebeliever get to fill this sideboard slot. They tend to hurt more decks all around. Though I do question how many more decks truebeliever hates on that kataki. Obviously it's meta dependent. Thorny of Amethyst and Glowrider rip apart so many decks though! If it's not heavy creature and aggro, these two are almost always coming in.

raharu

01-20-2008, 07:09 PM

Curby

01-20-2008, 07:17 PM

A question: how have the oblivion rings been working for everyone. I dedicated two slots, and they do work as both disenchants and creature removal. They're just not ever awesome for me. Sometimes I just want a couple of more creatures. For the moment they're staying in however.

I'm loving them enough to put 2 in the main and 2 in the side, though I wonder if I can cut it down to 1 in the side. One of D&T's main strengths is the individual awesomeness of its cards, and the Ring is great generic point removal. I think I'm a bit of a control player at heart, and the deck could undoubtedly do fine with some more critters in those slots. However, the point is to be able to survive on a couple of critters in play at a time (to keep the Cat from hurting us too much) and I seem to be doing alright.

To be fair, I'm only running 20 lands (I don't have any Ports or Wastelands to use yet). When I get Ports or Wastes, the introduction of colorless lands means I'll likely go up to 21-22 lands to keep the consistency of drawing white sources. If this forces me to cut critters, I might feel the hurt you're currently feeling with regards to threat density.

technogeek5000

01-20-2008, 07:31 PM

I just wanted to share the board i am running currently.

4 Engineered Plauge
4 Leyline of Singularity
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst

Engineered plauge is obviously for tribal decks as they have tended to be a problem for the deck. LotV and Thorn should be self explanatory. The one I realy like is the leyline of the singularity. I brought the card up a long time ago as mainboard option to murder all forms of aggro which it did. Its also nifty against warrens combo as the tokens kill themselves due to the legendary rule. Leyline comes in against all forms of aggro because it is such a amazing beating against them. Goblins, D. Stompy, and other problematic aggro decks become extremely favorable once you have the singularity/karakas going.

Also i made the following changes to my maindeck:

-4 Rishadan Ports
-3 Cataclysm
-1 Plains

+4 Wasteland
+3 Thoughtsieze
+1 Flagstones of Trokair

Curby

01-21-2008, 04:42 AM

Hey, neat. Leyline of Singularity does work quite well with Karakas and prevents them from doing nasty multiples (e.g. multiple Phyrexian Arena). I also note that you took out Cataclysm, but for decks packing the Cat I'm wondering if it's so good. Leyline makes them keep dupes in hand, but the point of any sweeper is to get them to over-commit so not only is the sweeper highly asymmetric, it makes it more difficult for them to recover. Any other thoughts on it in the mono-white build?

Barook

01-21-2008, 05:34 AM

Leyline of Singularity has also awesome synergy with Oblivion Ring. Remove something from the game, wait for them resolving a second copy of the card, play a second Ring, targeting something else.

Due to the legend rule, both Rings go to the graveyard, but the remove trigger is still on the stack. Your opponent loses both cards to the legend rule and the new target is removed from the game once and for all because the return trigger resolves before the remove trigger. Good times. :laugh:

Finn

01-24-2008, 08:52 PM

Galroth

01-24-2008, 11:15 PM

I have not tested any splash color in Death and Taxes, so my opinion is very suspect. However, I'm extremely hesitant to splash a color to Death and Taxes because I do not think there is much to be gained in any potential splash.

The black splash is interesting, and it does seem a bit more tested than the others for obvious reason. Blue would be played for the sifting ability of brainstorm and counterspell, daze, and force of will. Unfortunately the splash is too limited to make truly good use of daze and force of will and for those reasons seems a little unviable. Red... nobody has thought of or tested because it doesn't seem to help the problem match-ups. Green does give us Teeg, and Goyf. But in my testing Control match-ups and opposing Goyfs are much less of a concern than... the true nemesis... combo. And this is why black is being considered.

Death and Taxes really isn't built for a heavy splash. Too much double white to support. And I think it should stay this way. So only light splashes for a single colored mana are are probably involved.

A breakdown of what black offers: double black mana and double white mana is too hard to support, so hymn to tourach is out. Same with Nantuko Shade and the other black beaters just really don't offer anything that astounding which would warrant the splash for black's beaters. It's really for 3 cards. Dark Confidant for the card advantage and an otherwise solid creature drop. And your anti combo set-up of Duress, Thoughtseize, or possibly Cabal Therapy. These only require a single black mana so the splash can remain light. Now, are these cards really so much better than other possible card advantage and combo disruption? Well Dark Confidant is badass card draw. White really doesn't offer anything that could even come close to equaling this. But it doesn't actually directly help with the problem matchups of combo. Are Duress and Thoughtseize really so much better than Thorn of Amethyst, Glowrider and TrueBeliever? They do come down faster, they might even be more versatile. But do they warrant an splash?

I don't know what the latest statistics were, but I believe combo generally compromises only about 15% of the field. Now I don't want an auto loss to combo, so I board heavily against it. But I just really don't see the splash being that much better to risk it. If one tries to argue that control is also an issue, then I would think Thorn and Glowrider are just as good against control. I really can't bring myself to justify this. It's a close call, but I'm still left wondering why you'd risk this (much less pay for the duals :P).

2 cents... mine.

TheRock

01-25-2008, 09:51 PM

From the very limited amount of playing that I've done with the black splash, I will gladly tell you that Cabal Therapy was the first card I added to the deck - not Vindicate, not Confidant, not Duress, not Leyline. Therapy is far from dead against aggro and control and it's great in being able to remove problematic cards that your current hand may not be able to stop or handle.

This deck is made for that kind of card. It's simply not that fast and it plays enough creatures so that you can two whacks when you need it. Many Rock decks have been successful in the past because they were good at discarding the problem cards and just swinging through the slop that the opponent had left. That philosophy obviously won't completely apply to a deck that wants to use a Mangara lock or swing with non-green creatures, but it's not like it couldn't or wouldn't be applicable.

Meh, this might be too much conjecture and not enough results or facts - I apologize if it is.

Shawon

01-27-2008, 08:17 PM

Sorry, but just curious, what is the origin of the name of this deck?

Curby

01-27-2008, 09:29 PM

Finn can correct me if I'm wrong, but probably:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=nothing+is+certain+but++death+and+taxes&btnG=Search

Cataclysm = Death
Mana Tithe = Taxes
Isamaru = Puppy

Nihil Credo

01-27-2008, 10:02 PM

D&T actually predates Mana Tithe - it was made right after the printing of Time Spiral, i.e. Mangara/Flagstones. IIRC, Death stands for the aggro and Taxes for the mana denial.

vigilante

01-27-2008, 10:22 PM

and Taxes for the mana denial.
....which used to be a much greater component of the deck (ie. Rishadan Ports + Tangle Wire + Hokori, Dust Drinker). These days, the deck is more like just "Death", relatively speaking.

Shawon

01-27-2008, 10:39 PM

Thanks guy. At first when I heard the name of the deck, I thought it had to do with Land Tax, but seeing as how 'Tax is banned, I thought it was a post-mortem version of the Tax deck. Silly me.

I clicked the link of the origin. I like the description of the proverb from which the name came ("Nothing is certain but death and taxes"): "It draws on the actual inevitability of death to highlight the difficulty in avoiding the burden of taxes. "

I can see how the description can applied to Magic when it comes to this deck. The inevitably of death comes the creatures and the burden of taxes comes from the mana denial. Clever.

Jak

01-27-2008, 10:42 PM

Has anybody tested the Wg version? I think this deck looks pretty awesome, but I just feel fat like Tarmogoyf and then hate like Teeg good be really good.

Jak

01-28-2008, 02:24 AM

Ceridan

01-28-2008, 03:05 AM

A list I threw together.

Creatures
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Gaddok Teeg
4 Serra Avanger
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Stonecloaker
3 Mangara of Corondor

Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Mana Tithe
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Armageddon

Land
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
3 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
3 Plains

SB
1 Armageddon
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 Glowrider
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tivadar of Thorn

Hi Jak!
I wonder why you prefer Armageddon over Cataclysm? In most situations where I have found Cataclysm usefull is situations where you are outnumbered (for example against gobbos or other aggro decks).

Isamaru

01-28-2008, 12:54 PM

D&T actually predates Mana Tithe - it was made right after the printing of Time Spiral, i.e. Mangara/Flagstones. IIRC, Death stands for the aggro and Taxes for the mana denial.

You're right, but not completely.

Death and Taxes was the name Finn originally gave to his deck (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=50057) that abused Hokori + Vial + Karakas, and Cloud of Faeries with Grand Arbiter Augustin (the Tax Collector), among other things. He tried UW and then GW, but settled on mono white, which quickly got adopted by hundreds of people who were looking for an alternative to budget White Weenie.

It'd be nice if the creator of the deck got a little credit.

Finn

01-31-2008, 12:29 PM

I don't know about 26 creatures. I have not had that amount since before I started using Cataclysm. But for sure,

1. Mana Tithe is not an especially strong card. I often move it to SB in favor of Oblivion Ring if I think I will not see combo that day.
2. Do not start removing gy hate creatures. They randomly win games at times and create an annoyance for a great number of decks - all while attacking and stuff.

technogeek5000

02-10-2008, 12:02 PM

Guys, I don't want to shut off ideas, but Leyline of Singularity goes into a different deck. It has been discussed a few times already. And while it is cool, you can't go putting cool things in a deck and expect it to play aggro consistently.

What I would like very much to see is a viable black splash deck. Has anyone done this?

I posted a black splash list a little while back. I think it is pretty strong and it has done great in MWS testing (not randoms, actual tier decks).

4 Dark Confidant
4 Serra Avenger
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Thoughtsieze
4 Aether Vial
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Scrubland
3 Vindicate
2 Plains
3 Windswept heath
4 Flooded strand
4 karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Flagstones

Thoughtsieze and vindicate give the deck much more versatile removal which helps alot as they are not dead in any matchup. Knight of meadowgrain is just a slight change from white knight which is mostly inferior to it. Dark confidant gives the deck much needed draw and it acts as a small beater.

Srovex

02-10-2008, 12:46 PM

I posted a black splash list a little while back. I think it is pretty strong and it has done great in MWS testing (not randoms, actual tier decks).

4 Dark Confidant
4 Serra Avenger
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Thoughtsieze
4 Aether Vial
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Scrubland
3 Vindicate
2 Plains
3 Windswept heath
4 Flooded strand
4 karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Flagstones

Thoughtsieze and vindicate give the deck much more versatile removal which helps alot as they are not dead in any matchup. Knight of meadowgrain is just a slight change from white knight which is mostly inferior to it. Dark confidant gives the deck much needed draw and it acts as a small beater.

I have almost identical list to this, but I have replaced Knight of meadowgrain with cataclysm. How have they worked for you? Could the be replaced with Epochrasite? Have you been missing reseting power of Cat?