(Archive) [DTW] Aggro Loam

[HarborMastr]

Aggro-Loam Re-dux

First, a definition.

syn•er•gy (sĭn'ər-jē)
n. pl. syn•er•gies
1. The interaction of two or more agents or forces so that their combined effect is greater than the sum of their individual effects.

This is the most important part of playing Loam. It can be as simple as Loam + Wasteland or as complex as you wish, just remember that it must be there.

And for all you decklist whores voila!


DECKLIST:

// Lands
1 Bayou
3 [B] Taiga
2 [B] Badlands
4 [ON] Forgotten Cave
3 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 Treetop Village

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [OD] Terravore

// Spells
3 [EX] Seismic Assault
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
3 [TO] Devastating Dreams
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [SH] Mox Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [OD] Haunting Echoes
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [TO] Nostalgic Dreams
SB: 1 [MM] Pulverize
SB: 2 [CS] Deathmark
SB: 2 [NE] Massacre
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 1 Duress


[B]
[U]BLURB:

So ladies and gentlemen, this is Aggro-loam! This list is what I played at the last Batcave Sunday cash tourney and split for top-4. This deck is my second Legacy deck, the first being a failed attempt at piloting U/W/b fish in a comboless environment… Makes for a very sad penguin!

I then looked around for another deck to play. My quest led me to a German magic site and I realized how much fun Life from the Loam is to play. I tried to hybridize two different decks and minimize their weaknesses. The links to the decks are here (http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=9578)and here (http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=9781).

Essentially I am playing the three colour version with Mox Diamond replacing Birds of Paradise for extra synergy. The whole deck is meant for synergy. In fact, I believe that the only card that does not directly strengthen another card is Burning Wish. I will be listing my cards choices fairly soon. I could go into a detailed explanation on the history of the deck but as it is three in the morning and my writing sucks ATM anyway, better not risk it :)


[U]CARD CHOICES:

Lands:

Dual lands: They produce mana, seems strong???

Cycling Lands: One of the integral parts of the deck, combined with LftL, these 7 cards are a fantastic draw engine. Also, they help protect your Loam from nasty graveyard hate.

Fetchlands: They get duals and go to your yard ASAP to help with the Vore beats. Play 8.

Wasteland: Keep your opponent off that silly “coloured mana” they like to play with and make Vore a big boy!

Treetop Village: I found that occasionally I wanted some way to proceed with the beats if it was extreme late-game vs. permission decks. Man-lands are uncounterable and come back with Loam. Plus you can animate it and then sac it to flashback a Therapy! Remember that synergy word? Yeah…

Creatures:

Tarmogoyf: Cheap? Check; Green? Check; Survives Devastating Dreams? Check; Best two drop in Magic History? Check! I’ll take 4!

Dark Confidant: A lot of people don’t like Bob but I think he is an indisputable choice for a deck without any simple draw engine. Granted Loam is usually enough but who says no to an extra card a turn? At worst he soaks up some StP and chills with the Burning Wishes.

Terravore: MVP!!! This is your main beat-stick and he does so with unnerving consistency. Usually bigger than a Darksteel Colossus, Vore brings the ugly stick home! He is helped out by the majority of the deck, especially Devastating Dreams. Resolve one after another and it spells GG for your opponent.

Spells:

Seismic Assault: While this is sometimes considered a secondary win condition, resolving one of these with an active Loam turns your opponent crispy in a hurry!

Burning Wish: Gets all of your broken spells and any kind of silver bullet you would need. With the main deck being as tight as it is, having a twelve card wishboard lessens your trouble between matches. Some people say just run four of each of the good spells but I swear by the wishboard.

Life from the Loam: The biggest, baddest draw engine ever printed. Situational, yes. But when that situation is artificially created every match, and the only cards you are getting back read either: Deal 2 damage to target creature or player, Destroy target non-basic land, or Draw a card… Well, Ancestral Recall comes in a close second because it doesn’t even have dredge! (For the record, this is a slight exaggeration…)

Devastating Dreams: Being able to fuel this puppy with lands from LftL and playing it for between five and nine is a wrecking ball. Makes EtW tokens and most other creatures just disappear. Fuels your Goyfs (Yes, in the plural, Vore is a goyf too!!!) and clears the way to victory. Does everything I would want a card to do except make me a sandwich.

Cabal Therapy: Before last week these were Duress but Therapy was more synergistic and the fact that I can play them over and over again with man-lands seems really strong!

Engineered Explosives: Just play them, they are a fantastic choice in this format. I like them better than Deed cause I can reset the board in other ways. This allows me to be selective in my mass destruction. :)

Mox Diamond: Allows for the most nutty non-combo turn 1 and 2 in the format. My two favorite plays done in tournaments so far are: Double Diamond, fetch, LftL into Duress; and Double Diamond, fetch into Vore. Very strong, play four and no less…

Sideboard: The SB in this deck consists of mostly a wishboard with some Pithing Needles shoved in there for general utility. Unfortunately, the SB is completely meta-dependant save for a few cards that cannot be cut. LftL, Devastating Dreams, Hull Breach, Nostalgic Dreams and Deathmark. While this may seem like a good thing, it requires the Loam player to have a complete breakdown of their meta at all times!

That is it for the moment as I am supposed to get up early tomorrow but the matchups and tournament report will be following within 2 days!

Thanks a bunch for reading and if you guys have any questions feel free to shoot me an e-mail or PM. Please post your criticisms as the deck can only get better through testing and careful scrutiny!

David Conachan
HarborMastr on the web
harbormastr@gmail.com

[HarborMastr]

Dummy Post (Soon to be Matchup analysis)

[LGD]

Yay for you finally registering. I'm quite glad you posted this list, as I've been very impressed watching it in action and in my games against it and it'd be great if more people picked it up. More than anything it just seems like a ton of fun to play with and I think my games vs. you were the most enjoyable and least stressful of that tournament (barring my beyond awful fucking misplays game two :wink:). If I somehow miss you later today (and next week...) be sure to look me up in Eugene. If nothing else it'll be nice to have someone else down there who actually enjoys Legacy.

-Lochlan

[Nihil Credo]

One of the better AggroLoam builds I've seen, nice work.

The only thing that straight-out jumps to the eye is Cabal Therapy. It seems a relic from a previous version with more man-lands... now that you only have a singleton Village and eleven creatures you NEVER EVER want to sac, it seems pretty crappy.

Regarding the sideboard: what is the Massacre for? Fish shouldn't exactly be a huge concern for this deck. I also notice a distinct lack of combo-hate (Needle is just for Belcher). I'd guess that if you can go up to seven 1cc discard spells postboard you should be unfavoured, but not slaughtered.
Finally, you need need need need an answer to Leyline of the Void. Everyone and their little retarded brother is packing it these days. Hull Breach as a Wish target is only the farthest of outs.

[Lord_Dralnu]

hey man, i myself have been working on the ideal aggro loam build too.
I came across this topic by accident but it is offcourse nice to discuss the deck type overhere too.

My deck approach is somewhat different.
Mana base:(26)
Forestx1
Taigax4
Volrath's Strongholdx1
Badlandsx1
Bayoux1
Barbarian Ringx1
Tranquil Thicketx3
Forgotten Cavex3
Wastelandx4
Wooded Foothillsx4
Bloodstained Mirex3

Critters:(19)
Tarmogoyfx4
Wild Mongrelx3
Terravorex4
Kird Apex4
Dark Confidantx4

Spells:(8 )
Smotherx4
Life from the Loamx4

Artifacts:(4)
Mox Diamondx4

Enchantments:(3)
Seismic Assaultx3

Though you say your deck is AGGRO loam you only play 11+1 creature, my list plays 19 critters i think you need some more creatures.
Your deck is more like loam aggrocontrol.
I do have no idea which list is better, currently this list plays good but it is far from optimal.

Smothers are a metagame choice due to the uprising of like a tarmogoyf in every green based deck and smother provides a versatile answer to the big green meanie and a lot of other creatures.

things i'd like to try, your wish engine, Duress mainboard over cabal therapy from your list which i think isn't good in your deck.

I look forward to your reports and match ups.

Care to discuss our decks?

[Finn]

For your viewing pleasure (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1126&highlight=Land+Ho%21).

It's about time somebody revived this with Tarmogoyf.

[HarborMastr]

A quick blurb on the choice of therapy.
Usually I am recurring the single man-land or saccing Bob when I am about to DD. Therapy nukes any countermagic that they would have and I am using a resource that will no longer be available to me. I am playing in a Legacy tournament today and I will go back to MD Duress just to see how it works.

HarborMastr

[Xero]

This definetly looks like a good build of Aggro-Loam. I think the Wishboard could be a little stronger though, the Massacres and Pulverize don't seem all that useful. Pyroclasm does everything that Massacre does and more. I know Massacre can be free, but not all that many decks run Plains+small critters anymore. Pyroclasm is far better against combo decks running Empty the Warrens. I think Tsunami is another good wish target, since it can destroy all/most of Thresh or Landstill's lands without affecting you.

[HarborMastr]

Ok, ok. I can see how something like Tsunami would be good. I'll try Boiling Seas as it is the same thing but :3: :r: . So far the test changes for today are.
-3 Cabal Therapy
+3 Duress
-1 Massacre
+1 Boiling Seas
+1 Answer to enchantments....
Brainstorm some cards to nuke both Counterbalance and LLotV! Cause a good 1/3rd of my deck is at 2cc and Counterbalance is do able, it just sucks the big one...

[Illissius]

Interesting wishboard options:

- Reverent Silence. This might be the enchantment kill you're looking for -- it nukes any number of Leylines and Counterbalances, and not many decks with the latter also run 4cc cards. It does kill your own Assault, though, if you have it out.

- Reanimate. All of your creatures are heavy hitters and lightning rods, so getting them back inexpensively should be quite potent. It can also steal your opponent's creatures, which can be randomly game breaking.

- Grizzly Fate, Rude Awakening, Chainer's Edict, Eradicate, Sowing Salt, Haunting Echoes, Damnation, Meltdown, Decree of Annihilation, Obliterate

[Xero]

You could try Reverant Silence (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=22316) or Tranquility (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=23116). Counterbalance probably wouldn't stop either.

[HarborMastr]

Ok, well I am off to the tournament. Here is the sideboard I'll be testing:
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [OD] Haunting Echoes
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [TO] Nostalgic Dreams
SB: 1 [MM] Pulverize
SB: 2 [CS] Deathmark
SB: 1 [NE] Massacre
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
And I'll find a way to fit in the Boiling Seas on the way there.

[Citrus-God]

What happened to GWRb Aggro-Confinement Loam? Shouldnt this also be part of the discussion?

[Lord_Dralnu]

What happened to GWRb Aggro-Confinement Loam? Shouldnt this also be part of the discussion?


Err i believe that deck is called "Terrageddon" and it is a different deck type, never the less is it also a very good deck.

It also uses LFTL to cycle the lands and discard them to create the confiment lock which isn't even played anymore all that much i've read.
I actually taught about making that one and then switched to aggro loam from this thread.

[Lord_Dralnu]

Ok, well I am off to the tournament. Here is the sideboard I'll be testing:
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [OD] Haunting Echoes
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [TO] Nostalgic Dreams
SB: 1 [MM] Pulverize
SB: 2 [CS] Deathmark
SB: 1 [NE] Massacre
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
And I'll find a way to fit in the Boiling Seas on the way there.

Good luck bro, let us know how it went and were looking forward to detailed round information(if your gonna write a lil report afterwards)

good luck!

[Phantom]

What happened to GWRb Aggro-Confinement Loam? Shouldnt this also be part of the discussion?

There is a ATW thread in the DTB forum, so this thread should probably be used to discuss his build and similar builds. Can a mod confirm this?

As to the build, I agree that the wishboard needs to be cut down in size. To start, I think one artifact removal spell is fine (prob Shattering Spree). Ditto for Enchantment (Reverent Silence). How useful is Haunting Echoes? Seems like a win more to me, but I guess you need a win condition in the board (Reanimate sounds nice, but Nostalgic Dreams might fill that role). I just think it would be most useful against Thresh, and I'm not sure you will ever hit 3BB, and they won't have a counter, but maybe I'm wrong. Deathmark seems a little narrow for the board, as does Massacre. Chainer's Edict and Clasm could fill the role better I think (or maybe Perish?), and one of each could probably be fine since Devastating Dreams fills both roles to a point. Also, how often do you go for Nostalgic Dreams? Seems like a solid card, but I'm not sure what role it fills specifically. I would assume creature recursion (since Loam would do lands). What about Call of the Herd instead? Seems to have great synergy with Devastating Dreams. Lastly Tsunami >>>>> Boiling seas. One gets hit by Pyro and Red Elemental Blast, the other doesn't.

The biggest thing you are missing is QUICK yard hate. Since so many combo decks are using it as a resource, you might want to find something 3cc or less to wish for. Nothing comes to mind, but maybe someone can help.

Basically, I think I would try this:
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree (I love flashback, dredge, and replicate in the board so they are forced to counter the Wish or suffer)
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [TO] Nostalgic Dreams
SB: 1 [MM] Tsunami
SB: 1 [CS] Chainer's Edict
SB: 1 [NE] Pyroclasm (actually, Volcanic Spray could be interesting here since it can be wished for multiple times, and it still hits ETWs for 2 mana)
SB: 1 [PS] Therapy
SB: 1 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence

The last two slots are open. Not sure what is best there till I see some matchcup data. Persecute? Crypts? Gamble? Nightmare Void? Anarchy? Call of the Herd?

[Illissius]

I think the wishboard should be pared down as much as possible. Fitting some actual sideboard cards in there -- Leylines, Plagues, Clasms, Chokes, whatever -- should be something to strive for.

Life from the Loam, Devastating Dreams, Shattering Spree, and Reverent Silence seem like the only truly essential cards. Do you really need Pyroclasm and Tsunami in addition to Dreams? The next tier of cards I'd consider would be Reanimate/Regrowth/Nostalgic Dreams, Deathmark/Chainer's Edict, Haunting Echoes/Grizzly Fate, as well as Duress/Cabal Therapy, though I'm a fan of fitting as many of those as possible in the maindeck, to maximize the chances of getting your important cards to actually resolve.

I can't think of any good and fast sorcery graveyard hate beyond Morningtide, which is not in your colors and highly counterproductive to your own strategy.

[Xero]

I'm surprised there isn't some sort of critter recursion in this list. 1x Genesis or/and 1x Volrath's Stronghold are pretty standard in most Loam lists that focus on attacking.

[Phantom]

I'm surprised there isn't some sort of critter recursion in this list. 1x Genesis or/and 1x Volrath's Stronghold are pretty standard in most Loam lists that focus on attacking.

Nostalgic Dreams is in the board.

[Xero]

Nostalgic Dreams is in the board

That's not really the same thing. Stronghold/Genesis are both uncounterable and faster than Dreams. Dreams is better for the very late game, when you and your opponent have run out of gas. It wouldn't be hard to fit 1 of either in, and it would help against discard and counters.

[Phantom]

Fair enough on the dodging counters, but I think the whole point of running Burning Wish is so that you don't muck up the deck with situational one ofs. Also, I'm not sure if they can be qualifies as "faster" since they all become active around turn three (with no acceleration) and Genesis has another condition he needs to meet besides the mana (he needs to get in the yard) so I'm not sure how often the deck is going to start the recursion game plan early.

That being said, while I have no love for Stronghold, a Genesis seems worth a test slot.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Reanimate. All of your creatures are heavy hitters and lightning rods, so getting them back inexpensively should be quite potent. It can also steal your opponent's creatures, which can be randomly game breaking.

Unearth?

[Jak]

Unearth can't steal and I am sure that would happen a lot.

[thefreakaccident]

squee could be some use in this kind of deck... I could also see you running zombie infestation for additional wincons in the deck.

a list could be..

creatures//8
4 squee goblin naboob
4 graveshell scarab

enchantments//8
4 seismic assault
4 zombie infestation

sorceries//10
3 life from the loam
3 devastating dreams
4 burning wish

instances//4
4 firestorm

artifacts//4
4 mox diamond

lands//26
1 mountain
2 forest
4 wooded foothills
4 winswept heath
4 forgotten cave
4 tranquil thicket
4 taiga
4 bayou

you could even run a 4c variant for white, for E.Tutor and confinement... the deck has a good MU against most decks except obviously combo, but I could see some cards comming in from the board.

the sideboard would probably be the same as yours though.

[technogeek5000]

This deck gets countryside crusher in morningtide. The card is ridiculous in this deck as it combos with terravore and it makes sure you only draw business. I think that this card could realy help this deck become tier. I think that this deck can safely drop black now because it makes you draw only good spells.

[Phantom]

This deck gets countryside crusher in morningtide. The card is ridiculous in this deck as it combos with terravore and it makes sure you only draw business. I think that this card could realy help this deck become tier. I think that this deck can safely drop black now because it makes you draw only good spells.

Sans black the deck has a ton of problems beating combo, although it does pretty much wreck everything else.

[Volt]

.

[Ragnarok]

squee could be some use in this kind of deck... I could also see you running zombie infestation for additional wincons in the deck.

a list could be..

creatures//8
4 squee goblin naboob
4 graveshell scarab

enchantments//8
4 seismic assault
4 zombie infestation

sorceries//10
3 life from the loam
3 devastating dreams
4 burning wish

instances//4
4 firestorm

artifacts//4
4 mox diamond

lands//26
1 mountain
2 forest
4 wooded foothills
4 winswept heath
4 forgotten cave
4 tranquil thicket
4 taiga
4 bayou

you could even run a 4c variant for white, for E.Tutor and confinement... the deck has a good MU against most decks except obviously combo, but I could see some cards comming in from the board.

the sideboard would probably be the same as yours though.

There is a thread in the new and development forum about a deck wich abuses zombie infestation. My team developt it about 9 months ago and we've top 8ed a few times with the deck. But then the meta in the Benelux went to a lot of combo and that was not really favorable back then. But you can read about this all here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8015. The thread is a bit dead right now but I think it deserves more attention.

[Jak]

This deck would totally own with the new card. I think it would replace Dark Confidant because it will draw into business and not useless lands.

[Lemuria]

This deck already owns a lot, I don't know why people don't pay much attention to it.

But yes, with Crusher it will become a nightmare.

[technogeek5000]

Here is a list i have been trying out on MWS. It has been unbelievably good.

4 Countryside Crusher
4 Terravore
4 Goyf
4 Thoughtsieze
4 seismic assault
3 life from the loam
3 devastating dreams
4 burning wish
4 mox diamond
2 mountain
1 forest
4 wooded foothills
4 Bloodstained mire
4 forgotten cave
4 tranquil thicket
4 taiga
4 Badlands

1 Life from the Loam
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Haunting Echoes
3 Pithing Needle
1 Nostalgic Dreams
1 Pulverize
1 Deathmark
1 Hull Breach
4 Duress
1 Reverent Silence

Thoughtsieze was realy good maindeck. I didnt miss confidant and thoughtsieze gives the deck better game against combo and it grabs creatures.

[Mental]

This deck is fucking retarded. It steamrolls so much shit it's funny. If my MWS wasn't crashing every few minutes, I'd be testing the shit out of it.
BTW, technogeek, you're running 61 cards. I'd cut 1 tranquil thicket.

[Lemuria]

Yes, and also, I would cut one more land, one thoughtseize and one Seismic Assault for 3 md Firestorm.

Don't underestimate the power of this card. It's your only real answer to a first turn Lackey besides thoughtseize. I was playing test this deck right now on mws and it's more the amazing. I was able to take down 3 creatures at the same time and deal 4 damage to the opponent. Yes, it's that retarded.

Here is the current list I run, before main decking Crusher:

29 Mana

4 Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Wasteland
4 Mox Diamond

10 Creatures

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
3 Terravore

21 Spells

2 EE (for tokens, needle.....very versatile)
3 Firestorm
3 Devastating Dreams
3 Seismic Assault
3 Life From the Loam
4 Burning Wish
3 Cabal Therapy (still testing this vs Thoughtseize, but Therapy has won me more games, as I can also sac Bob for Flashback it)

I tested this version last game against Geddon Stax. The first game was pretty easy. I wished for Shattering Spree removing some annoying arctifacts (smockestack, trinisphere) from the way and a Goyf plus a 6/6 Terravore finish the job.

Second game was really really interesting. I had a mox, 3 other lands in play and a Goyf. He lands the first Ghostly Prison, then the second Prison and he finally cast Ravages of War, screwing me pretty bad. I played Bob and passed the turn. Next turn I drew a Burning Wish from Bob and drew something I can't remember in my Draw Step. I wished for Reverent Silence (I just have to say that this card is amaaaaaazing), gave him 6 life and finished the game on the next turn.

I was not sure how this deck perform against Stax decks, and I'm still not sure if this match could tell me everything about the matchup. I know that Chalice for 2 screw you pretty bad, but that might be their only option to stop this deck, since Burning Wish can win the game.

My conclusions are: this deck is pretty insane, being able to smashes every other deck besides combo (you might have a chance with Therapies and EE, though still they have advantage). Burning Wish is a house, it just wins you games that you shouldn't.

[technogeek5000]

Im noticing a horribly terrifying lack of a playset of Countryside crusher. The card is a absolute house in this deck, better then vore because he requires no other cards for him to operate, pumps vore, makes all your draws better, and is great with loam.

[enemyofarsenic]

just curious, it handles all other decks besides combo but how does this handle reanimator types of deck?

[Ninj4]

nuking the beastie with assault then bashing head with vore and crusher? and how legit is crusher? is there a picture? he seems awfully imbal... in more than just Aggro Loam.

[enemyofarsenic]

pretty much psyched with the addition of countryside crusher in aggro loam.. how are the testings going with the new guy so far? =]

[technogeek5000]

amazing actually. He becomes huge, so much that he eats goyf after 1 or 2 turns. Also the fact that all your draws become better is huge. It also fills the graveyard nicely with lands and meks it easier to get Lftl so you eventually get a engine going with cycle lands that crusher dumped and Life from the loam so crusher will finish the game by himself relatively shortly.

[Lemuria]

So far I'm doing tests only in MWS, so I'm not able to test Crusher yet. I wonder what could be cut for him. Obviously I won't cut Terravore and Goyf....maybe Bob? Bob is great, but I can't think of anything else. Maybe he is the right choice, since Crusher will "fix" your draws and you can use your cycling lands to draw business and answers.

[Joon]

I'm testing the following list:

// Lands
4 [B] Taiga
2 [B] Badlands
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring
4 [ON] Forgotten Cave
1 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

// Creatures
4 [OD] Terravore
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [xyz] Countryside Crusher

// Spells
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [7E] Seismic Assault
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [LOR] Thoughtseize
3 [TO] Devastating Dreams
4 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [TO] Nostalgic Dreams
SB: 1 [MM] Pulverize
SB: 1 [PT] Armageddon
SB: 4 [LOR] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 [US] Gamble

The one Gamble is to get wished and to search for Tabernacle (which costs you can pay easily quite often and which can wreck decks like ******** in combination with Loam + Wasteland) or Stronghold (which is totally underrated at least here in Germany).
The Wishboard is clear I suppose (the additional Pulverize as it tends to own Stompy decks), Nostalgic Dreams for mass recycling (Assault or Explosives). Therapy and Thorn are for the Combo-Matchup...

So far my testing results are that Crusher reads "StoP me now or die". He is unbelievable strong in this deck.

Edit: I count only 59 cards in the MB...Fixed

[Nihil Credo]

Edit: I count only 59 cards in the MB...does anyone has an idea what to play in that slot? Atm I'm testing Recoup...
Cycling land #5 seems good.

[Joon]

Right - don't know actually why I didn't think of that :confused:
Added.

[*Magus*]

Hi!
Can someone post the matchup analysis?

Why do you play 4 E.E isn't better play 2 E.E and 2 Deed?

With this split you could have an answer against Needle and Meddling Mage and you will be able to destroy other stuff with converted mana cost >3 (as Moat or Humility for example)

Magus

[Joon]

I haven't got much time by now, so excuse my short answer please.
This deck's Matchups against Treshvariants is good to very good (depends of course on their list - do they have the basic forest, do they have Needle main etc.), against Landstill our deck should be favoured, too (unless they have Extirpate and we no (or countered) Wish). Combo is one of the Matchups you don't like. Especially the Belcher and the Ichorid MU is near to awful (but you can wreck Ichorid if they don't kill you in one turn with 'nacle and/or Dreams). T.E.S. isn't that good, too - the only good thing about this MU is that T.E.S. isn't that fast as belcher. Generally steamrolls this deck any aggro-control and aggro strategies, has a fair chance against control and will most likely loose to combo.

About the Deed Split: First of all, together with Mox Diamond you should be able to reach four different colours easily :wink:
The split between Deed and Explosives seems to be a nice idea, in the earlier days I played always 2-3 Explosives so that a split didn't come to my mind. Worth testing, at least.

[*Magus*]

I haven't got much time by now, so excuse my short answer please.


Don't worry ^^



This deck's Matchups against Treshvariants is good to very good (depends of course on their list - do they have the basic forest, do they have Needle main etc.), against Landstill our deck should be favoured, too (unless they have Extirpate and we no (or countered) Wish). Combo is one of the Matchups you don't like. Especially the Belcher and the Ichorid MU is near to awful (but you can wreck Ichorid if they don't kill you in one turn with 'nacle and/or Dreams). T.E.S. isn't that good, too - the only good thing about this MU is that T.E.S. isn't that fast as belcher. Generally steamrolls this deck any aggro-control and aggro strategies, has a fair chance against control and will most likely loose to combo.

About the Deed Split: First of all, together with Mox Diamond you should be able to reach four different colours easily :wink:
The split between Deed and Explosives seems to be a nice idea, in the earlier days I played always 2-3 Explosives so that a split didn't come to my mind. Worth testing, at least

I have play against Landstill 4c and i find a very good matchup even if they counter your burning and even if they extirpate your Life from the loam; I play with Genesis and with Volrath's Stronghold which are able to recicle my creatures and put my oppontents in serious trouble; (in sb I play extirpate which is very usefull against control and sometimes against combo)
About Mox i don't like it very much even if is a very powerfull card: CotV, disenchant, Deed, E.E are able to destroy it easily; And so i think that is quite difficoult to obtain 4 colour using it;
All IMO..

[Ragnarok]

Here is a list i have been trying out on MWS. It has been unbelievably good.

4 Countryside Crusher
4 Terravore
4 Goyf
4 Thoughtsieze
4 seismic assault
3 life from the loam
3 devastating dreams
4 burning wish
4 mox diamond
2 mountain
1 forest
4 wooded foothills
4 Bloodstained mire
4 forgotten cave
4 tranquil thicket
4 taiga
4 Badlands

1 Life from the Loam
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Haunting Echoes
3 Pithing Needle
1 Nostalgic Dreams
1 Pulverize
1 Deathmark
1 Hull Breach
4 Duress
1 Reverent Silence

Thoughtsieze was realy good maindeck. I didnt miss confidant and thoughtsieze gives the deck better game against combo and it grabs creatures.

First off I must say I really like this list and can't wait 'till we actually can see the C. Crusher in action. Like said before, I would also at 3 Firestorm i've played them in Wild Zombies myself and when put into the right deck the card is really insane. Second why should you play thoughtseize main and duress side, I think it would be better for the combo match-up to play hymn to tourach instead of duress. And third what is the advantage from thoughtseize above duress in this deck? There are not many creatures you can't handle, you have an answer for Tarmogoyf namely: Tarmogoyf, Terravore and Countryside Crusher and for the smaller creatures you have firestorm and devastating dreams. And for the combo match-up, I can't think of any creatures which are played in combo decks which would win them the game in an instant when it hits the table. So in my opinion it would be best if we move duress to the main instead of thoughtseize and put hymn to tourach in the board.

[Lemuria]

I haven't got much time by now, so excuse my short answer please.
This deck's Matchups against Treshvariants is good to very good (depends of course on their list - do they have the basic forest, do they have Needle main etc.), against Landstill our deck should be favoured, too (unless they have Extirpate and we no (or countered) Wish). Combo is one of the Matchups you don't like. Especially the Belcher and the Ichorid MU is near to awful (but you can wreck Ichorid if they don't kill you in one turn with 'nacle and/or Dreams). T.E.S. isn't that good, too - the only good thing about this MU is that T.E.S. isn't that fast as belcher. Generally steamrolls this deck any aggro-control and aggro strategies, has a fair chance against control and will most likely loose to combo.

About the Deed Split: First of all, together with Mox Diamond you should be able to reach four different colours easily :wink:
The split between Deed and Explosives seems to be a nice idea, in the earlier days I played always 2-3 Explosives so that a split didn't come to my mind. Worth testing, at least.

Deed is a powerful card indeed, but does not have a good synergy with this deck unfortunally. You will destroy your own moxen (wich is broken with Devastating Dreams), destroy your Seismic Assault and your creatures. Remember this is an AGGRO Loam and Deed works better in control decks. You have Burning Wish to tutor answers for enchantments and arctifacts, besides, I also run a single copy of Crime/Punishment just because is a pretty versatile card and you can quickly answer tolkens if you don't find an EE.

About the discard, both Thoughtseize and Therapy >> Duress in this deck.

[zulander]

Make sure you have some lands in hand or an active Life from the Loam with countryside crusher on the board, once you play him you'll never draw another land again. This can be very bad if your opponent plays armageddon effects.

[Ragnarok]

@Lemuria: I'd like to see some arguments, it's easy to say you want to play those card, but why do you want to play those cards?

A teammember of mine is a good and active Lands.dec player, the only disruption for combo he plays is sideboard 4 chalice of the void. And it makes his combo match-up insane good, if it works for Lands.dec it should definetly work for this deck. And besides that we have a better clock so with that much presure it should work very well.

[Lemuria]

@Lemuria: I'd like to see some arguments, it's easy to say you want to play those card, but why do you want to play those cards?

A teammember of mine is a good and active Lands.dec player, the only disruption for combo he plays is sideboard 4 chalice of the void. And it makes his combo match-up insane good, if it works for Lands.dec it should definetly work for this deck. And besides that we have a better clock so with that much presure it should work very well.

Certainly.

Well, we already know that our combo matchup is not good but this deck can pretty much wrecks anything else. For that reason, the 2 life points of Thoughtseize is not relevant, and being able to pick a Tarmogoyf, Confidant, Meddling Mage, Tombstalker, MONGOOSE (well, you got me) is what makes this card better then Duress.

As for Therapy, this is more a preferencial issue. I like the idea of removing more then one card in one call, and the ability to flashback is even more broken (I'll never be afraid to sac a Goyf or a Vore if I have to), as it can completly empty your opponent's hand. Also, it has a better MU against Combo then Thoughtseize or Duress.

I'm still testing Thoughtseize vs Therapy though. So far, as I said before, Therapy has won me more games, but if I really need to, I'll exchange them for Thoughtseize and maybe run 1 or 2 Therapies in my wish board.

[Ragnarok]

I think you are right about adding cabal therapy instead of thoughtseize or duress, it would make the combo match-up pre-board better. Post-board I would probably still go for 4 chalice of the void but I haven't tested it yet.

Cabal therapy in the main is probably making the deck a bit harder to pilot because you must know turn 1 on the draw and turn 2 on the play what kind of deck you are facing. But let's skip that part that's just experience and knowledge of the meta. The most important thing is when you are facing a combo-deck what to name with therapy. For T.E.S I think it's the best to go for the tutors and then for the acceleration. For SI the best thing in my opinion is targetting the draw-fours and for Belcher you should probably simply hit belcher first and then empty the warrens or burning wish, because they don't have any kind of draw. Solidarity needs a different approach and I don't know what is best do you rip there hand from the start or after their turn 3 so you can set a clock in the very early game.

[Osse]

This is what I was playing last time I decided to toy around with this, the reason I stopped working on it was because it had such a tough time getting around Cbalance (Kind of the reason its not seeing much play in Extended), and wasn't spectacular anywhere else (It didn't blow anything out of the water, from my testing). Keep in mind, this was about two months ago, and I haven't tested since. Nonetheless.

// Lands
4 [A] Bayou
2 [ON] Barren Moor
1 [A] Savannah
1 [B] Scrubland
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [UNH] Forest
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [JU] Nantuko Monastery

// Creatures
4 [OD] Terravore
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [JU] Genesis

// Spells
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate

Sideboard is pretty random, the main reason for white was Swords and Gaddock, as Gaddock is pretty hot v Landstill. Sensei Top is really hot in this deck, especially with Confidant. 3 Wasteland/1 Nantuko Monastery. I figured I wanted one more win condition, and having a recurabble one seemed better than the 4th Wasteland (People are playing better mana bases). Shriekmaw is really hot, getting around Cbalance, and hitting everything except Confidant.

White over Red: I'm not sure if this is right, but I felt at the time of my testing that it was, I may be wrong though. Terminate seems pretty hot tbh. Seismic Assault is also almost always a must counter (unless you have Cbalance out, heh).

[Lemuria]

Not saying that your deck is bad or anything, but it's completly different from Aggro Loam with a different playstyle. Maybe it will be proper to discuss your list in the Life From the Loam [ATW] thread.

[zulander]

Here's the GWB list I am running now:

Mana: 24
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tranquil Thicket
3 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Volraths Stronghold
2 Forest

Creatures: 20
4 Mongoose
4 Mongrel
4 Goyf
4 Terravore
3 Witness
1 Genesis

Disruption: 12
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords
4 Plague

Utility: 4
4 Loam

However, I see no reason not to drop the white for red once Morningtide becomes legal. Here's the list I will run once it comes out.

Mana: 27
4 Mox Diamond
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures: 19
4 Wild Mongrel (dude, seriously play this guy. In my bgw list he IS the best creature there, better than goyf and terravore.)
4 Goyf
4 Terravore
2 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
4 C. Crusher

Disruption: 7
4 Thoughtseize
3 Therapy

Utility: 7
4 Burning Wish
3 Life From the Loam

The sideboard will be something like this:
1 loam
1 therapy
4 e. plague
3 grip
5 more wish targets.

Let me know what you think.

[Joon]

Seriously, run Devastating Dreams. This card is so strong in this deck, even with all your critters. against Aggrodecks it's just a Wrath from that you can recover easily (LftL and Stronghold plus Witness/Genesis), against Control an Geddon (from that you can again recover easily with LftL) and against Aggrocontrol it's just both. Dreams is another "Counter me or loose"-card in this deck.
I'm not sure if such heavy recursion (Witness AND Genesis AND Stronghold) is necessary. I'd cut the Genesis as Stronghold does the job, too and add the Tabernacle. Even with 19 creatures you can afford the drawback! It prevents aggro and Aggrocontrol also from recovering after a Geddon/Dreams.
Just my 2,34 cents.

[zulander]

I don't think the deck needs D.Dreams in the main at all. You should already beat other aggro decks due to the sheer size of your creatures. Against control you have the recursion as well. The deck needs a better combo matchup (hence the 7 MD discard spells.) I personally have never liked D. Dreams either against thresh/control due to the fact that if they counter it they just 4/5 for oned you. I'd rather have the wish -> tsunami play instead. I think one D.Dreams in the board though is good enough.

[kabal]

Mana: 27
4 Mox Diamond
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures: 19
4 Wild Mongrel (dude, seriously play this guy. In my bgw list he IS the best creature there, better than goyf and terravore.)
4 Goyf
4 Terravore
2 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
4 C. Crusher

Disruption: 7
4 Thoughtseize
3 Therapy

Utility: 7
4 Burning Wish
3 Life From the Loam

Let me know what you think.

Have you give Dark Confidant a try? Granted, your build will incur quite a bit life loss if you do include him. In my build I don't have Thoughtseize MD.

How are those Therapies treating you? Have you though about putting some creature remove in its place instead? Maybe something like Terminate/Smother.

Eternal Witness, I know it can recur anything from the 'yard, but Unearth seems like a good fit in her spot. Nice to bring back creatures for 1 mana.

Your land configuration seems a little off, the most color you need is Green. Granted, you do have 4 Tranquil Thicket but they should not count total lands you need for mana.

[Ragnarok]

Well I am going to test this list for a while, it has a pretty aggresive approach and that's what I like about this list. I'm not going to discuss card choices here because that's done enough. But feedback is always welcome.

Spells: (35)
4 Countryside Crusher
4 Terravore
4 Goyf
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Seismic Assault
3 Life from the Loam
3 Devastating Dreams
3 Firestorm
4 Burning Wish
4 Mox Diamond

Lands: (25)
1 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained mire
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
2 Bayou


Sideboard:

1 Life from the Loam
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Reverent Silence
1 Nostalgic Dreams
1 Pulverize
1 Deathmark
1 Hull Breach
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pithing Needle

[zulander]

Aggro decks run more than 11/12 creatures. If you don't run more than that then you're probably playing loam control.

[Phantom]

Let me know what you think.

I agree with the decision to drop white for red. However, this cuts you off from StP, and while Burning Wish can usually fill this role (and I recommend dropping to 3 Wishes as I've found two in the opening hand too slow) I highly recommend at least two Shriekmaw. I suspect they will be devastating in your list in combination with the Stronghold/Genesis.

As for your board, red improves your Goblins matchup (via dreams and that new beater) and Wish reduces your dependence on Grip. I'm not saying that the board shouldn't be 4 Plague, 3 Grip + Wish targets, just that you should now reevaluate since you can Wish for Devastating Dreams, Shattering Spree, and Reverent Silence.

Other than that, the list looks pretty great.

For everyone: I'm not sure I understand the love affair with Therapy here. I realize the great power of the card, and its synergy with dredge, I just don't understand how it's a great tool against combo. Too many combo decks go off before you know what they are, and even if you know exactly what they are you whiff on the first swing more than half the time, and since we don't run many (or any) 1cc creatures, flashing it back ASAP is often a problem. Lastly, the reason I love Duress and TS over it as combo hate is that you get to SEE the hand before choosing what to grab. This is often very important knowledge in order to grab the card that cripples them most (for example if they are holding two win cons but not so much fuel).

Still, I know how great a card it is, that's why I choose to run it as a wish target. The fact that it can be flashed back and wished for again without ever clogging up my hand in bad times is fantastic.

Lastly, something I'm not sure about. Ever since I've dropped Exploration (a while ago) I've been loving Wasteland less and less. Maybe I'm just playing against decks with really good manabases, or fast game plans or something, but I've been feeling that it often has been stifling my development, without crippling the opponent in a significant way (except against Landstill). I've been trying out 2 Mishras and another fetch in the three slots. Thoughts?

[Lemuria]

Seriously, run Devastating Dreams. This card is so strong in this deck, even with all your critters. against Aggrodecks it's just a Wrath from that you can recover easily (LftL and Stronghold plus Witness/Genesis), against Control an Geddon (from that you can again recover easily with LftL) and against Aggrocontrol it's just both. Dreams is another "Counter me or loose"-card in this deck.

I totally agree with this.

DD just garantees your winning. It kills all your opponets creatures (including Goyf in the mid-late game) while your Crushers and Vores get bigger. Also, it completly shuts down their mana base while you still keep yours via moxen. A GeddonWrath for 2 mana that only affects your opponent printed in one card just seems that amazing.

@Ragnarok.

I think your list is pretty optimal and similar to mine. I only go:

-2 Badlands
-1 Forest

+3 Wasteland.

But that's just a meta call IMO. Wastes work very well for me. Personally, I like to have a way to deal with those annoying Mazes and Tabernacles.

[zulander]

@phantom
You bring up many good points. I'll address them in order.

1. Plague in the board: It's not only in the board for goblins, it's also there for breakfast/belcher (warrens) and slivers (something played but not that much).

2. Grip in the board: You're probably right here, but against stax I'd like to bring in some hate so not only can I side some in but can wish for them too.

3. Therapy: I play both thoughseize and therapy. Therapy is amazing after a thoughseize and will often help in the control matchup. Against TES I'd always therapy for I. Tutor blindly then follow up by saccing a critter to dominate their hand. If you're playing witness/volrath/genisis the saccing part almost never means anyting to you.

4. Wasteland: It's not only there to help cut off green from thresh and other matchups, but being able to cripple someone's mana base because they kept a 1/2 land hand is good times. It not only affects the current game but it definately makes them rethink hands in games 2/3. I'm not sure that 4 is correct but with LftL I'd play at least 3.

[Lemuria]

but against stax I'd like to bring in some hate so not only can I side some in but can wish for them too.


The best options I can think for you is Shattering Spree and Meltdown. With 5 mana you are able to destroy all their arctifacts with Melt. I run one copy of those myself as I can also screw Affinity :wink:]]But I still think that your list needs some weapons of mass destruction, Devastating Dreams being the best option.

[Ragnarok]

@Phantom: It's done, it used to be but I replaced it with cabal therapy. I think I'd rather wish for a Deathmark then for a cabal therapy.

@Lemuria: My opinion about wasteland in the list I play is that it slowers the deck. I keep board control with DD, FS and BWish so my creatures can eat the lives of my opponents without much trouble. And wasteland simply doesn't fit in that picture, ofcourse Tabernacle and Maze of Ith are a pain the ass, but we play more creatures then they play maze of ith and our creatures are bigger then their creatures. And in the board I have Needle for the wasteland, port and maze of ith problem. Let's asume we are facing a lands.dec player, he can easily play around wasteland by porting the wastelands before he plays tabernacle. During your next upkeep you can waste tabernacle but you still have to pay the mana for you creatures, he can do this every turn. While you stick on dredging to get your wasteland back in play to waste his lands, his boardcontrol will become better every turn because he can play more lands than you can waste each turn. So I think the gameplan in general would be; dropping creatures for protection and kill him with firestorm and seismic assault.

@Zulander: Adding Engineered Plague is not necassery, firestorm is an one-side wog for goblins and DD does the job pretty good as well. Therapy mainboard is the best thing to play vs combo (pre-board that is). The most important thing we have to understand is; this deck has a weakpoint as have all decks and for this decks it simply is storm-combo, but it aint so bad at all TES and Belcher most of the time go for empty the warrens so in the best case we have 2 turns to find a DD, tendrills is pretty much good-game. And for solidarity we can wreck their hand with therapy and set up a decent clock. Post-board we do have a much better chance of winning because we have acces to chalice. But this is pure my theory.

[zulander]

But I still think that your list needs some weapons of mass destruction,
Why do you say that? I'm assuming you are talking about the fact that it can wipe their creatures. What matchups is this so important that the wishes won't help? Against control (most if not all control decks are important) I wish for tsunami/boil. How is this plan worse than discarding your hand and maybe even killing your creatures? I fail to see how D. Dreams is good against control decks (who play many counters btw).




@Zulander: Adding Engineered Plague is not necassery, firestorm is an one-side wog for goblins and DD does the job pretty good as well. Therapy mainboard is the best thing to play vs combo (pre-board that is). The most important thing we have to understand is; this deck has a weakpoint as have all decks and for this decks it simply is storm-combo, but it aint so bad at all TES and Belcher most of the time go for empty the warrens so in the best case we have 2 turns to find a DD, tendrills is pretty much good-game. And for solidarity we can wreck their hand with therapy and put on a decent clock. Post-board we do have a much better chance of winning because we have acces to chalice. But this is pure my theory.

If you read my response to phantom you'll see why I play plague in the board.

[Lemuria]

Why do you say that? I'm assuming you are talking about the fact that it can wipe their creatures.

That's exactly my point. There is no good mass removal in your board besides Plague (wich actually will only affects Goblins hard), unless you run something in your wishboard.



How is this plan worse than discarding your hand and maybe even killing your creatures? I fail to see how D. Dreams is good against control decks).

The list I run is quite different from yours. If I discard my hand for DD (wich will be most lands), I can recurr them via LFtL and use them to hurt my opponents bad with Seismic Assault. Control has counters, yes, but this deck has a lot of "must counter cards", you also have good discards and that's why we say that this deck can wreck anything besides combo. And also we all know how bad for control is to rape their mana base off.

I run a single copy of Delirium Skeins (I know it seems "meh" but works great) in my wishboard to put a pressure on control if my therapies couldn't do the job.

[Phantom]

I'm actually with Zu. Devastating Dreams mainboard can be a meta call. Wish ->Dreams only sucks against counters and Dreams already sucks against counters. Usually against something like Thresh I wish for removal if needed, discard if not, and Dreams only if I just saw their hand (or it's empty). Also, there are so many matchups and situations where Dreams is a brick in your hand. I would never not run it at all, but I see no problem with upping its cc to :1::r::r::r: in order to not have it sit in my hand at bad times.


@phantom
1. Plague in the board: It's not only in the board for goblins, it's also there for breakfast/belcher (warrens) and slivers (something played but not that much).

I know that, but I don't see anything her that Dreams can't take care of at the same speed. I'm not arguing that Plague is a bad choice (also solid against breakfast from what I hear) I'm just wondering if it's the best choice. What about Leyline for example?


2. Grip in the board: You're probably right here, but against stax I'd like to bring in some hate so not only can I side some in but can wish for them too.

I'm hesitant to cut Grip myself at this point because of the Counterbalances I'm seeing everywhere. Just thinking out loud on that one. As for wish hate on artifacts, I have yet to see anything I like better than Shattering Spree. I love it's focused nature (so our Moxen survive), tendency to be card advantage, and its amazing ability to dodge Counters and Chalices. You can't say all that about Pulverize, Meltdown, Ancient Grudge, or anything else really.


3. Therapy: I play both thoughseize and therapy. Therapy is amazing after a thoughseize and will often help in the control matchup. Against TES I'd always therapy for I. Tutor blindly then follow up by saccing a critter to dominate their hand. If you're playing witness/volrath/genisis the saccing part almost never means anyting to you.

I agree that Therapy is amazing in a hand with another discard spell, but as that happens in like 10 percent of playable hands, I'm not sure how reliable that is. I'm not sure I love your TES example. There are so many ways this can go wrong. They can not have Infernal in their hand. They can have a hand that doesn't need that tutor. They can hide their essential cards from discard (and viewing) with Brainstorm. They can chant in response to you laying a creature (thus preventing flashback). You can draw no creature for flashback, or not be able to play one before they go off (many creatures here are 3cc after all). You can flashback your only creature to rip their hand apart but then let them back into the game since you sacced your only clock. Etc. Etc. And this is talking about the SLOWER version of Storm combo. Therapy is utter crap against Belcher compared to Duress.

I guess I fail to see the harm in maindecking Duress and moving Therapy to the board. Therapy will still be there to rip apart hands you have viewed, it just won't ever let you lose from whiffing.


4. Wasteland: It's not only there to help cut off green from thresh and other matchups, but being able to cripple someone's mana base because they kept a 1/2 land hand is good times. It not only affects the current game but it definately makes them rethink hands in games 2/3. I'm not sure that 4 is correct but with LftL I'd play at least 3.

I like the point about games 2 and 3. Not so much about Thresh. Thresh's creatures give me no problems thanks to recursion, Deathmark, Dreams, 'maw, Mishras, bigger fatties, etc. It's their counters that get to me, and Waste does nothing to help me on that front. Maybe I'll try a 2/2 split with Factory and see how I like that.

@Ragnarok: I somehow missed Deathmark in your board and was suggesting it. Ignore me.

[zulander]

I know that, but I don't see anything her that Dreams can't take care of at the same speed. I'm not arguing that Plague is a bad choice (also solid against breakfast from what I hear) I'm just wondering if it's the best choice. What about Leyline for example?

Leyline only stops Breakfast, whereas Plague stops goblins/xfeast/slivers. I think it's too good not to run in the board.



I'm hesitant to cut Grip myself at this point because of the Counterbalances I'm seeing everywhere. Just thinking out loud on that one. As for wish hate on artifacts, I have yet to see anything I like better than Shattering Spree. I love it's focused nature (so our Moxen survive), tendency to be card advantage, and its amazing ability to dodge Counters and Chalices. You can't say all that about Pulverize, Meltdown, Ancient Grudge, or anything else really.

Yeah, I run some arti/ench hate in my wish board but having additional uncounterable way to hit cb/tops/shackles/hoofprints is amazing.



I agree that Therapy is amazing in a hand with another discard spell, but as that happens in like 10 percent of playable hands, I'm not sure how reliable that is. I'm not sure I love your TES example. There are so many ways this can go wrong. They can not have Infernal in their hand. They can have a hand that doesn't need that tutor. They can hide their essential cards from discard (and viewing) with Brainstorm. They can chant in response to you laying a creature (thus preventing flashback). You can draw no creature for flashback, or not be able to play one before they go off (many creatures here are 3cc after all). You can flashback your only creature to rip their hand apart but then let them back into the game since you sacced your only clock. Etc. Etc. And this is talking about the SLOWER version of Storm combo. Therapy is utter crap against Belcher compared to Duress.

I guess I fail to see the harm in maindecking Duress and moving Therapy to the board. Therapy will still be there to rip apart hands you have viewed, it just won't ever let you lose from whiffing.

They can't hide their good cards after you resolve therapy. I see your point however, but therapy is good against goblins/aggro decks and duress not so much.



I like the point about games 2 and 3. Not so much about Thresh. Thresh's creatures give me no problems thanks to recursion, Deathmark, Dreams, 'maw, Mishras, bigger fatties, etc. It's their counters that get to me, and Waste does nothing to help me on that front. Maybe I'll try a 2/2 split with Factory and see how I like that.


Which is why waste is so nice. Keep them off green and they can't really cast the creatures they need to play. Something to think about: If you're keeping them off green and they lay a fetch to protect their mana and pass I will usually waste the fetch at their EoT. Sure they can fetch if they want but allowing me to waste the land they fetch on my turn is pretty darn nice, as it makes sure they don't get Trops on their turn.

[Phantom]

Leyline only stops Breakfast


Wha??? Ichoroid. Other Loam decks (and 43 land will wreck us). IGGy. Reanimator. Stax (maybe?). Like I said, I'm not sure its the right choice, just that Plague isn't the auto include it was in Gwb because red offers so many other ways to deal with Tribals.

Also, I think I'm making my point poorly about Wasteland so I'll start again:

I cut Waste for the same reason I cut Seismic Assault (which is a ridiculously powerful card). They are both crappy without an active Loam (a single waste is all you will see sans loam). I try to build my Loam deck the way good Survival builds are assembled. Make sure the cards are good without Survival, then add survival. Why? Because if you have Survival going, then you've won. The same can be said about Loam. When I have the Loam engine going, then I have the Loam engine going. I'm drawing two or three cards a turn while laying the most undercosted fatties in the game while either blowing up their board or ripping apart their hand. What the hell do I care if they have access to 0 or 8 lands?

Mishra's Factory is a perfect example of a powerful card that fits our aggro control theme, is great on its own, and improves with Loam active.

Note that I'm not asking how many games Waste has won you. I'm asking how many games Waste won you that you would have otherwise lost. If it's significant, then keep running it. If you found the number to be very small, like me, the I suggest testing Factory.

[Ragnarok]

@phantom: We don't rely on loam as much as lands.dec does, we us it as a tool and not as a win condition and primary engine. Seismic Assault gives great spot removal and it makes the lands.dec match-up better. Which match-ups do you think will become worse when running Seismic Assault?

[Phantom]

Which match-ups do you think will become worse when running Seismic Assault?

Combo. Any deck that runs graveyard hate. Any deck that stops us from playing Loam (usually through CB). Any deck that runs needle. Any deck that Deeds our board with it out. Any deck that runs mana denial, or any game where we happen to not make it to :r::r::r:.

Look, I'm not passing off lack of Seismic Assaults as gospel here. I know what the card can do from playing it in GR loam for so long. I just have found it to be a win more (or more likely a win-quick) in games I will probably win anyway since I have a Loam going.

[Terminus_Est]

Combo. Any deck that runs graveyard hate. Any deck that stops us from playing Loam (usually through CB). Any deck that runs needle. Any deck that Deeds our board with it out. Any deck that runs mana denial, or any game where we happen to not make it to :r::r::r:.

Look, I'm not passing off lack of Seismic Assaults as gospel here. I know what the card can do from playing it in GR loam for so long. I just have found it to be a win more (or more likely a win-quick) in games I will probably win anyway since I have a Loam going.I feel you there. My GR loam decks wins more often then not by a huge Terravore or through the card advantage produced via Loam + cycle lands.

[Ragnarok]

In the next few weeks I am going to test 2 different builds vs several important match-ups, those will be; UGb Threshold, Lands.dec, Trainwreck, D-Stompy, TES and maybe solidarity. The first list will be the list below. Cabal Therapy will be Thoughtseize as well, to confirm my opinion about the best card in that slot. The second list will be something like; -3 seismic assault, -1 devastating dreams, +3 Cabal therapy, +1 Genesis. It is more controllish so it improves my combo match-up. Also loam can be used more aggresively in this list, because dredged creatures can still be played and that's not possible in the first list; obviously. I can't find any slots to fit in shriekmaw I know it's great spot-removal but is it necassery? Just a thought: "Armageddon in the board or Ravages of War? We do play Mox Diamond". And I think Leyline of the Void sideboard would be pretty good after all but I have to find some room for it first. And shattering spree ain't that bad either.

4 Countryside Crusher
4 Terravore
4 Goyf
4 Cabal Therapy/Thoughtseize
3 Seismic Assault
3 Life from the Loam
3 Devastating Dreams
3 Firestorm
3 Burning Wish
4 Mox Diamond
1 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained mire
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
2 Bayou


Sideboard:

1 Life from the Loam
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Haunting Echoes
3 Pithing Needle
1 Nostalgic Dreams
1 Pulverize
1 Deathmark
1 Hull Breach
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Reverent Silence

[Lemuria]

Yesterday I was playing against Faerie Stompy deck and I found this to be an awful match up. Chalice can screw you pretty bad and post board, Back to Basics completly destroys you.

First game he went Chalice@1 on first turn and Chalice@2 on the second turn, GG, there's not much we can do. Game 2 I won without problems, and game 3 B2B costs me the game. We also played a game 4 for fun and guess what? I could do nothing to beat B2B. Until I wish to Reverent Silence or Hull Breach, he already had faties beating me down, so what I ask is: How do we deal with this bitch B2B?

EDIT: I think I'll reduce or maybe completly cut the Wastes in order to run some basics.

[arvid]

What do you think of a decklist like this? If want to keep Dark Confidant. If I find a random card to cut I can make room for 4 of both Crusher and Vore.


CREATURES (19)
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Tarmogoyf
3-4 Terravore
3-4 C.Crusher
4 Dark Confidant

SORCERIES (11)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
3 Life from the Loam

ARTIFACTS (4)
4 Mox Diamond

LAND (26)
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
3 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Barren Moor/Forgotten Cave
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath’s Stronghold

[zulander]

How do we deal with this bitch B2B?


Sideboard Krosan Grip.

[Maveric78f]

Various remarks:
- mongrel becomes a subpar creature in my testings. So much inferior to the 12 other creatures... It may be good against gob to have a second 2CC strong body, but actually... is really gob a problem?
- Cabal therapy is bad because all your creatures are too strong to be sacrificed.
- I don't like playing thoughtseize in the MD because my best answer to combo remains chalice of the void. I play 4 of them MD instead of the traditional discard first turn slot.
- Gamble (with the undiscussed wish) is the clearly best tutor for the deck. It enables a lot of nice stuff, like having virtually 8 chalice@0 for the first turn against combo or playing 1 tabernacle in SB.
- Assault is either an instant way to deal with creatures or an alternative kill. That's why I play only 1 assault. I play also only 1 MD devastating dreams because it is a very risky card, even if it is powerful. You rarely need more than 1 in a game.

My list is eventually halfway aggro-control. I think I would need 1 or 2 more lands but I don't find the place:
// Lands/mana
2 [OD] Forest (3)
4 [ON] Forgotten Cave
3 [U] Taiga
1 [MM] Mountain (3)
3 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
2 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [B] Badlands
1 [A] Bayou
4 [SH] Mox Diamond

// Creatures
4 [OD] Terravore
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [MOR] Countryside Crusher
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [US] Gamble
1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
1 [EX] Seismic Assault
1 [P3] Rolling Earthquake
2 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void


// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [P3] Rolling Earthquake
SB: 2 [7E] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

About he SB:
- Ancient Grudge is supposed to be found with gamble
- Shattering Spree, pyroclasm and reverent silence have 1 that is sided in as a gamble target and the other remains in SB as a wish target
- thoughtseize is either sided in instead of chalice when nothing else is relevant or sided in against combo instead of assault, devatating dreams, 1 life from the loam and 1 terravore.
- the tabernacle is entered against any deck with a lot of creatures or against EtW combo decks as a gamble target.
- the rest is only wish target.

[fetchesbasiclands]

How about a couple of Witnesses MD or a Regrowth as a Wishtarget there to make Gamble a bit safer?

[JDunkin00]

I'm actually with Zu. Devastating Dreams mainboard can be a meta call. Wish ->Dreams only sucks against counters and Dreams already sucks against counters. Usually against something like Thresh I wish for removal if needed, discard if not, and Dreams only if I just saw their hand (or it's empty). Also, there are so many matchups and situations where Dreams is a brick in your hand. I would never not run it at all, but I see no problem with upping its cc to :1::r::r::r: in order to not have it sit in my hand at bad times.



I know that, but I don't see anything her that Dreams can't take care of at the same speed. I'm not arguing that Plague is a bad choice (also solid against breakfast from what I hear) I'm just wondering if it's the best choice. What about Leyline for example?



I agree that Therapy is amazing in a hand with another discard spell, but as that happens in like 10 percent of playable hands, I'm not sure how reliable that is. I'm not sure I love your TES example. There are so many ways this can go wrong. They can not have Infernal in their hand. They can have a hand that doesn't need that tutor. They can hide their essential cards from discard (and viewing) with Brainstorm. They can chant in response to you laying a creature (thus preventing flashback). You can draw no creature for flashback, or not be able to play one before they go off (many creatures here are 3cc after all). You can flashback your only creature to rip their hand apart but then let them back into the game since you sacced your only clock. Etc. Etc. And this is talking about the SLOWER version of Storm combo. Therapy is utter crap against Belcher compared to Duress.

I guess I fail to see the harm in maindecking Duress and moving Therapy to the board. Therapy will still be there to rip apart hands you have viewed, it just won't ever let you lose from whiffing.



@Ragnarok: I somehow missed Deathmark in your board and was suggesting it. Ignore me.

I always ran Dev Dreams and I think it only becomes more viable with Countryside Crusher coming in MOR. True that sucking against counters. Even when I run therapy main I keep one sb but normally duress is the maindeck choice over therapy because the creatures in hand often don't matter unless there pro red or a 187 you will keep them off the table. I too run a regrowth as a wish target with dredging loam it becomes a valuable tutor. My friend Ray prefers recoup because of flashback but it doesn't get creatures.

[Maveric78f]

How about a couple of Witnesses MD or a Regrowth as a Wishtarget there to make Gamble a bit safer?

Witness/stronghold combo is definitely not aggro, but I said that I was aggro-control I may include 1. Regrowth, dreams or all suns dawn in possible too in SB. I thought about it. Actuallym theoretically, none should be necessary because:
- either I use gamble in early game in order to find an answer to combo and I have 6 cards in hand when I get discarded at random,
- either I use gamble to find Life from the Loam (which is one of the bests turn 1)
- either I search for a specific land (wasteland, wolrajh or cycle land) because I already have life from the loam in hand.
- either I search for a control card in middle game but it's usually a bad play that is chosen as the last option to survive. Witness wood be too slow in that case.
- or I search for a kill (assault or dreams) and I have time to sculpt my hand at this time in order to have 10 or more cards in hand.

[zulander]

What do you think of a decklist like this? If want to keep Dark Confidant. If I find a random card to cut I can make room for 4 of both Crusher and Vore.


CREATURES (19)
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Tarmogoyf
3-4 Terravore
3-4 C.Crusher
4 Dark Confidant

SORCERIES (11)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
3 Life from the Loam

ARTIFACTS (4)
4 Mox Diamond

LAND (26)
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
3 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Barren Moor/Forgotten Cave
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
I like your list a lot, not so sure about basic lands though. I also prefer MD Therapies but we're basically running the same list except you have +4 confidant and I have +3 therapy.

[JDunkin00]

I like your list a lot, not so sure about basic lands though. I also prefer MD Therapies but we're basically running the same list except you have +4 confidant and I have +3 therapy.

You always need access to basics. The swamp however I find uneeded Change to another forrest. Also I usually find 3 wasteland to be sufficient. Swap the 4th to another cycle land, basic, or utility land.

[fetchesbasiclands]

This is my current build on an aggro/controllish Loam deck.The side is designed to beat Combo,which is the only matchup that Aggro Loam does not beat very Well.I am not sure about whether Crusher or Terravore is better,cutting Witness could be an option,but she does something none of the huge beatsticks do.Barbarian Ring can be good,but it could also be a basicland.I like to have both Genesis and Stronghold,maybe one of those can be cut.Dark Confidant is very good,not sure if it could replace Witness.Seismic Assault is a card that is insane once you have the loaming going on,but it is quite useless at other times.It's manacost is also a bit difficult in a three-color deck.The Firestorms are good in certain situations,but sometimes they are just Dead,2 seem fine.I've also cut DD from the main,don't know if it's the right call.Let me know what you think.

Lands(25)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Tranquil Thicket
1 Forgotten Cave
1 Forest
3 Bayou
3 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Badlands
4 Wasteland
1 Barbarian Ring
Creatures(17)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Eternal Witness
2 Terravore/Countryside Crusher
1 Genesis
3 Shriekmaw
Sorceries(11)
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Life from the Loam
4 Burning Wish
Instants(2)
2 Firestorm
Artifacts(6)
4 Mox Diamond
2 Engineered Explosives
Sideboard
1 Life from the Loam
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Deathmark
1 Reverent Silence
1 Regrowth
3 Duress
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Krosan Grip

[arvid]

You always need access to basics. The swamp however I find uneeded Change to another forrest. Also I usually find 3 wasteland to be sufficient. Swap the 4th to another cycle land, basic, or utility land.

You're right, I messed up, it (the Swamp) looks totally out of place in that list. I'm now playtesting with 3 Wooded Foothills, 3 Bloodstained Mire, and havn't had any problems with it so far, even against decks with Wastelands, such as white Stax and BG Suicide.

[Nihil Credo]

I must say I am intrigued by the suggestion of MD Chalice of the Void in Loam. It would let me drop Black altogether, it's much better than Thoughtseize against combo (Thorn or Sphere can sub for Duress in the side), and the deck has zero 1cc spells anyway.

The big problem is that Mox Diamond is the only way to drop a Turn 1 Chalice, since both Chrome Mox and City of Traitors are terrible in this deck. I'm still going to test it, though, since against combo I'll just drop it at zero and against non-combo deck it's still fine on turn two.

Oh, and for the record: I strongly recommend 3x Engineered Explosives in the maindeck. They're generally great, but more importantly they deal with the most common maindeck threat to your engine, i.e. the CounterTop combo.

[Phantom]

Oh, and for the record: I strongly recommend 3x Engineered Explosives in the maindeck. They're generally great, but more importantly they deal with the most common maindeck threat to your engine, i.e. the CounterTop combo.

Except that they can easily be stopped by the decks that run that combo (either by CB, Needle, Spell Snare, or Explosives @0 if you try to drop it early) more easily than other solutions like Deed, Krosan Grip, or Wish -> Reverant Silvence.

I'm not really arguing against Explosives since it's so versatile (I run 2 in my Loam build) but it is not the best CB answer.

[zulander]

After testing the g/b/r version with Countryside Crusher I've come to the conclusion that Loam is the worst card in the deck. Has anyone explored the idea of cutting it down to 2 or even completely? I honestly don't know of any games that I've won due to it, nor have there been games where if I didn't have it I would have lost.

Also, I'd much rather play something better against combo on turn 2 other than chalice. I'm not sure that chalice is the best answer for the combo matchup.

[Nihil Credo]

I play Wish -> Silence, but that will never pass through Counterbalance unless you preemptively Wish for it (they will always keep a 2cc spell on top to counter Loam). Grip of course is the best, but that's a sideboard option.

EE is immune to Counterbalance and Spell Snare (just overpay on it), and it's not a common Needle target - they usually and correctly go for Seismic Assault. EE@0 can blow it up, but not often: you only need five mana to play and blow EE in the same turn.

@Zulander: :confused:? Can you please go into more detail as to why Loam is 'the worst card in your deck'? I seriously can't imagine how you could have had that perception.

[Tacosnape]

I'm not sure the allure of Chalice of the Void is strictly as an anti-combo card. I think the allure of Chalice of the Void is that, outside of the discard, the deck doesn't really run anything of consequence that costs 1.

Chalice of the Void might open up a cutting of black for those of us who don't want to run Dark Confidant in this deck. The problem with it is that it leaves hands that don't catch a Mox Diamond feeling fairly vulnerable. Lack of 1-drops are a dangerous thing, and cards like Elvish/Simian Spirit Guide or Lotus Petal just don't seem like a fantastic idea in this deck.

[zulander]

@Zulander: :confused:? Can you please go into more detail as to why Loam is 'the worst card in your deck'? I seriously can't imagine how you could have had that perception.

Sure, I'll list the non-mana cards my deck plays.

1. Wild Mongrel
2. Tarmogoyf
3. Terravore
4. Countryside Crusher
5. Dark Confidant
6. Shriekmaw
7. Genesis (Ok, so this doesn't actually count lol)
8. Cabal Therapy
9. Thoughseize
10. Burning Wish
11. Life from the Loam

Okay, now I want you to go through these cards and list them 1 - 10, 1 being best 10 being worst. What cards would you like to play most? Which one least? Here's the order I'd put them in:

1-3
Goyf/Crusher/Terravore

4-7
Thoughseize/confidant/burning wish/ mongrel

8-10
loam/therapy/shriekmaw.

Do you see why I don't even think loam is necessary? The deck doesn't rely on loam abuse anymore and I think I'll drop it down to a 2 of in the deck with the third in the board to wish for.

[Kronicler]

Wow, I completely disagree with you zulander. Mongrel, Terravore, and Crusher are all made insane by loam. Without it they really aren't that good. Also Loam is also the draw engine of your deck which actually allows you to draw and plays these cards, which means that in your rankings it actually goes to #0.

Kronicler

[Tacosnape]

Sure, I'll list the non-mana cards my deck plays.

1. Wild Mongrel
2. Tarmogoyf
3. Terravore
4. Countryside Crusher
5. Dark Confidant
6. Shriekmaw
7. Genesis (Ok, so this doesn't actually count lol)
8. Cabal Therapy
9. Thoughseize
10. Burning Wish
11. Life from the Loam

Okay, now I want you to go through these cards and list them 1 - 10, 1 being best 10 being worst. What cards would you like to play most? Which one least?

Listing Terravore and Countryside Crusher ahead of Loam is both assinine and absurd considering that both are significantly weaker without Loam making them workable. As an example, Tarmogoyf might be the best creature in magic, but it's a shitty selection if you don't run green mana to enable it. As such is the relationship (albeit to a lesser degree) between T-Vore and CC to Life From The Loam.

Not to mention that you left out Devastating Dreams. But for the record, I'll order it for you.

1. Life From The Loam
2. Tarmogoyf
3. Burning Wish
4. Countryside Crusher
5. Thoughtseize
6. Terravore

Here we have a distant cliff where I could add about six other cards. Devastating Dreams for one. Seismic Assault for two.

7/8. Mongrel/Confidant, in some order
9 Million. The rest, which I wouldn't play.

[Nihil Credo]

Well, if you don't run Devastating Dreams or Seismic Assault, then yes, I can see why you're left without much Loam synergy anymore. Do you even have Wasteland and/or cycling lands? (And incidentally, doesn't Mongrel suck bollocks without Life from the Loam?)

Anyway, I don't like the idea of bending the deck in order to let it work without Loam. It is an approach that works well with Survival, but there are two major differences here:

1) Survival is much more difficult to protect. It's a 1G enchantment that can be countered, destroyed, discarded, or Needled, and all you can do to get it back is topdeck a Witness. Life from the Loam is immune to everything except Chalice and Counterbalance (EE solves those, sometimes a preemptive Burning Wish too, and postboard you have Grip too if you want), and post-SB Extirpate and Leyline (solved by Burning Wish and Krosan Grip, respectively; once in a blue moon EE@4). That makes protecting Loam a far more viable plan.

2) You can't run more than four Survivals, except with Enlightened Tutor. You can run seven Loams with ease, and actually more with Gamble (although Crusher IMO makes Gamble unnecessary nowadays).

3) You can just play a bunch of good creatures and Survival is still insane. If you start just playing a bunch of good creatures, like you do, then you see what happens: Loam gets mediocre, and you end up playing a slightly tweaked Rock deck.

I'm not interested in playing Rock. I want to play broken.

Incidentally, I realize I've never actually posted my current list. Here it is:

// Lands
4 [PR] Taiga
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Forgotten Cave
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [UNH] Mountain
3 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
3 [UNH] Forest
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [PR] Badlands

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [OD] Terravore
4 [MNT] Countryside Crusher

// Spells
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [JU] Burning Wish
2 [TO] Devastating Dreams
3 [8E] Seismic Assault
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives (still not sure if I can cut a land for the 3rd)
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [TO] Nostalgic Dreams
SB: 3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [OD] Last Rites

[Maveric78f]

I play only 2 LftL MD and I often SB out 1 after G1. But I play 4*wish + 4*gamble. Gamble is good because it provides what lacks you into your opening hand (LftL, wasteland, cycling land, chalice against combo, stronghold, a big guy), a solution when you are desperately locked or a kill when you have a hand full of lands.

[Tacosnape]

list

Two questions.

1. Is 4 Chalice of the Void the right number? I assume you aren't running 4 Seismic Assaults on the premise that multiples are useless. In this particular deck, doesn't the same principle apply to Chalice?

2. Is the black splash worth it, strictly for maindeck EE and sideboard Thoughtseize? To me, the primary reason to run the black splash is the discard and Volrath's Stronghold, and your list runs neither maindecked.

[zulander]

Two questions.

1. Is 4 Chalice of the Void the right number? I assume you aren't running 4 Seismic Assaults on the premise that multiples are useless. In this particular deck, doesn't the same principle apply to Chalice?
If you go the chalice route then yes, 4 is a must.



2. Is the black splash worth it, strictly for maindeck EE and sideboard Thoughtseize? To me, the primary reason to run the black splash is the discard and Volrath's Stronghold, and your list runs neither maindecked.
No. If you play black you should be playing 4 thoughtseize and 1-3 therapies main.

[Nihil Credo]

1. Is 4 Chalice of the Void the right number? I assume you aren't running 4 Seismic Assaults on the premise that multiples are useless. In this particular deck, doesn't the same principle apply to Chalice?

Actually, that's only part of the reason I don't run 4 Assaults: it's also because it's usually the very last card I play off my hand, since the creatures are best dropped early (even Terravore). Plus it's the card that loses the most when you can't find a Loam.

It's true that this deck only really wants to set Chalice@1, because any other setting would almost always hurt you more than then. But unless the opponent shows an Ancient Tomb, it's also your very first play any time you see it in your opening hand. I can see cutting one, like some Stax builds play just 3 Trinispheres.


2. Is the black splash worth it, strictly for maindeck EE and sideboard Thoughtseize? To me, the primary reason to run the black splash is the discard and Volrath's Stronghold, and your list runs neither maindecked.Notice that this black splash consists of exactly 1 Badlands. I can do that safely since Wasteland is not exactly a problem in matchups where I need early-game discard; plus there's Mox Diamond.

I'm almost positive that discard is inferior to Chalice as a maindeck option, because it's much less synergistic with your pressure/mana denial plan, and because it does less to shore up tough matchups like Burn/Sligh or Storm combo. It's still the best option as backup disruption, though: your biggest fear are fast combo decks, against which it's imperative to maximize your chances of turn 1 interaction, so Thorn of Amethyst and friends aren't reliable enough.

I must shamefully confess that I had completely forgotten about Volrath's Stronghold. Genesis and Witness sucked so much and Nostalgic Dreams was so insane that I didn't even take into consideration the existence of other recursion engines. I'm finding a spot for it ASAP.

[zulander]

I'm not interested in playing Rock. I want to play broken.

Incidentally, I realize I've never actually posted my current list. Here it is:

// Lands
4 [PR] Taiga
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Forgotten Cave
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [UNH] Mountain
3 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
3 [UNH] Forest
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [PR] Badlands

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [OD] Terravore
4 [MNT] Countryside Crusher

// Spells
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [JU] Burning Wish
2 [TO] Devastating Dreams
3 [8E] Seismic Assault
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives (still not sure if I can cut a land for the 3rd)
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void


Nihil: Unless your metagame is pikula.dec and randomaggro.dec I don't know why you've made some of these choices. Here's my opinions on your list.

1. 1 badlands for EE and Thoughtseize in the board?
2. Thoughtseize main, Chalice board. You're going to need thoughtseize much more against the average metagame than you would chalice.
3. Mana base seems good enough to not roll over and cry against wastelands.
4. 31 mana sources... That's way too many imho.
5. 11 creatures? What happens when your opponent decides to play magic too?
6. Devasting dreams? I don't know how many times I have to say it, but this card is just turrable(thank you Charles Barkley lol). Unless you have zero blue decks in your metagame I can't see why you'd play this.
7. Seismic Assault seems eh I guess, how has it been?

It's 130 am for me and if I missed something completely obvious I'm sorry.

[Illissius]

Without a healthy amount of discard, do you ever run into problems with people countering your Wish too often and leaving you Loamless?

[Nihil Credo]

1. 1 badlands for EE and Thoughtseize in the board?
Yep. That's 10 black mana sources in the deck - it might be a bit short for t1 Thoughtseize, but not by much.

2. Thoughtseize main, Chalice board. You're going to need thoughtseize much more against the average metagame than you would chalice.Disagree, unless by 'average metagame' you mean a combo-dominated one comboish. Thoughtseize (which is really just a turn 1 play, every other turn you have better things to do with your mana) takes a single answer out of your opponent's hand. Chalice not only hits the most commonly played answer card in the format, it shuts down your opponent's cheap spells: that is, it takes away their consistency, and ability to recover from Wastelock or Devastating Dreams.


3. Mana base seems good enough to not roll over and cry against wastelands.
4. 31 mana sources... That's way too many imho.I cut a land at some point and I'm still not sure it was the right choice. Keep in mind Mox Diamonds are acceleration, not mana sources, and cycling lands only count so much.

5. 11 creatures? What happens when your opponent decides to play magic too?I don't care about their creatures - they can keep a couple of 3/3 if I have a 10/10 (Incidentally, this is where Chalice shines). The exception is Goblins, which is fast enough to just swarm over my fatties - that matchup actually devolves down to 'Assault, Dreams, or die'. The deck used to SB Firestorm when Goblins was the top deck, and it might return to that.

Note that Seismic Assault is a win condition too, and often the best one.


6. Devasting dreams? I don't know how many times I have to say it, but this card is just turrable(thank you Charles Barkley lol). Unless you have zero blue decks in your metagame I can't see why you'd play this.Forgive me for disagreeing that 'unfair Armageddon + completely one-sided Wrath' is terrible. Not to mention it's your #1 weapon against Goblins, especially now that they have Weirding to answer traditional blockers.

Against blue, the plan is to play your other business spells before Devastating Dreams (i.e. discarding only lands or useles stuff like extra Chalices). They can only counter so much, you know (see also Illissius' question).


7. Seismic Assault seems eh I guess, how has it been?It's Dreams fodder if you don't have Loam (and yes, you can Dreams even without Loam, especially against aggro: that's why you run all those lands). Get it going along with Loam and it's practically impossible to lose.


Without a healthy amount of discard, do you ever run into problems with people countering your Wish too often and leaving you Loamless?

Against Threshold, and by extension against decks with the same countermagic suite, no. Their relevant answers are 4 FoW, 4 StP/Demise, and assembling the CounterTop combo; I've got Chalice to disrupt the last two, EE for the last, and my main bombs are Crusher, Loam, Wish, and Dreams, so I've always managed to stick at least one.

Against Landstill, I haven't tested enough to say with certainty.

[Tacosnape]

1. 1 badlands for EE and Thoughtseize in the board?
2. Thoughtseize main, Chalice board. You're going to need thoughtseize much more against the average metagame than you would chalice.
3. Mana base seems good enough to not roll over and cry against wastelands.
4. 31 mana sources... That's way too many imho.
5. 11 creatures? What happens when your opponent decides to play magic too?
6. Devasting dreams? I don't know how many times I have to say it, but this card is just turrable(thank you Charles Barkley lol). Unless you have zero blue decks in your metagame I can't see why you'd play this.
7. Seismic Assault seems eh I guess, how has it been?

It's 130 am for me and if I missed something completely obvious I'm sorry.

Here's my weigh in, FWIW.

1. I agree with you. I don't think this is enough to warrant the splash.

2. I'm not sure I can comment given that I don't think Chalice and Seize don't belong. I do think Therapy's crap here.

3/4. I agree the manabase is solid. I -partly- agree about the 31. Generally I feel the deck works best with 29-30. Nothing in the deck is really difficult to cast, and you only need most of the excess mana for cycling and casting Loam.

5. I think 11-12 is sufficient with Seismic Assault also in the picture, though without Volrath's Stronghold or Genesis, it's risky.

6. I'm with Nihil. Dreams is awesome. Dreams can singlehandedly win games.

7. I'm with Nihil again. Seismic Assault is ridiculous. Way more decks can deal with your absurdly huge creatures than can deal with enchantments, making it a very useful kill condition. Additionally, it's excellent for picking off creatures, and not just small ones. Once you get going, it's not hard to off opposing Tarmogoyfs, one per turn, until your opponent runs out of steam.

[HBspulse]

1. 1 badlands for EE and Thoughtseize in the board?
2. Thoughtseize main, Chalice board. You're going to need thoughtseize much more against the average metagame than you would chalice.
3. Mana base seems good enough to not roll over and cry against wastelands.
4. 31 mana sources... That's way too many imho.
5. 11 creatures? What happens when your opponent decides to play magic too?
6. Devasting dreams? I don't know how many times I have to say it, but this card is just turrable(thank you Charles Barkley lol). Unless you have zero blue decks in your metagame I can't see why you'd play this.
7. Seismic Assault seems eh I guess, how has it been?


Apparently we have two different opinions here, namely those who like to play the deck more as a control strategy and those who like to play it as an aggro-control strategy. Ironically, this deck is currently named aggro-loam, however it abandonned the pure aggro strategy a long time ago (kird ape, lightning bolt, nimble mongoose are just not good enough anymore).

Face it, playing only 11 creatures, you can't call this an aggro deck anymore, or even aggro control anymore. Nihil, apparently your game plan is to hold off the opponent, clear the board with EE or D.Dreams and win with terravore, seismic assault or countryside crusher. Which is fine off course. This is not the quick kill road off course.

A remark on this "controllish approach" to loam :
Devastating dreams has some shortcomings, so I suggest you try pernicious deed, it will serve you better. Devastating dreams is good in the following conditions :
- You have the loam engine going and preferably a mox diamond on the table
- You play in a aggro dominated metagame, with a lot of small critter decks
- Tarmogoyf is not the most common played creature. (Killing goyfs with dreams is not an easy task.)

Pernicious deed will serve you better, with the only disavantage of sometimes losing a mox diamond.

I like the "aggro-control approach" more, playing confidant and mongrel. In this version devastating dreams doesn't fit! Targetted removal such as terminate or smother serves your purpose more.

In conclusion, this discussion is how you play the deck, not which card is good or not.

[zulander]

Apparently we have two different opinions here, namely those who like to play the deck more as a control strategy and those who like to play it as an aggro-control strategy. Ironically, this deck is currently named aggro-loam, however it abandonned the pure aggro strategy a long time ago (kird ape, lightning bolt, nimble mongoose are just not good enough anymore).
In conclusion, this discussion is how you play the deck, not which card is good or not.
To be honest, I think you hit the nail on the head. I think that dreams/assault would be fine in the controlish version you've been playing Nihil, but they would both suck in the aggro version I'm currently playing out. Here's my latest list:

Mana: 28
4 Mox Diamond
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
2 Bayou
2 Badlands
4 Tranquil Thicket
2 Forgotten Cave
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures: 22
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Terravore
4 Countryside Crusher
3 Dark Confidant
2 Shriekmaw
1 Genesis

Disruption: 4
4 Thoughtseize

Utility: 6
4 Burning Wish
2 Life from the Loam

Sideboard: 15
4 Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
9 Wish targets

[zulander]

Now with Countryside Crusher being adopted in the deck, has anyone tried playing basic forests and swamps and magus of the moon in the board?

[b4r0n]

Tacosnape: Would you mind sharing your list?

Has anyone tried this with 4 colors? I've been playing around with R/G/b/w (light splashes for Thoughtseize and Swords), and I've been having a lot of success with it. I don't feel like non-Forest basic lands are necessary; if you can fetch a Forest and get Loam running, then opposing Wastelands are pretty useless against you. Similarly, if you run into a deck with Moon effects, you can generally function with just basic Forests and nonbasic Mountains, plus whatever Moxen you draw.

I've found Thoughtseize and Swords to be excellent in the deck. Thoughtseize provides a relevant turn 1 play that doesn't involve Moxen, and can be better than Chalice. Seize is relevant against every deck in the format and gives you valuable information about what you need to play around. While Chalice is a bomb against many decks, it can also be useless, or close to useless against other decks. Also, on turn 2, I'd much rather be dropping a Goyf or starting the Loam engine than playing a Chalice. Swords provides spot removal, which I think is missing from many lists. Assault doesn't really count as reliable spot removal; spending 2+ cards and RRR to kill a creature isn't so hot. Additionally, Swordsing one of your own guys in a pinch can net you a massive amount of life and allow you to re-stabilize at a higher life total.

[zulander]

Without a healthy amount of discard, do you ever run into problems with people countering your Wish too often and leaving you Loamless?
Players usually don't counter wishes, rather they try to counter wish targets.




Has anyone tried this with 4 colors?

What was the list you tested?

[Phantom]

Players usually don't counter wishes, rather they try to counter wish targets.


I would find this true of bad players maybe. Good wish boards are now loaded with Storm (EtW), Dredge (Loam), Flashback (Therapy), and Replicate (Spree) spells that all dodge counters.

@4 colors: This deck requires GGRRB already. This deck really doesn't need swords. Hell, GB offer a ton of removal solutions on their own, and when you throw red into the mix (and a wishboard to boot) the removal options are near limitless. Why run white???

[zulander]

Speaking of which, what are the spot removal spells available for g/r/b? So far I've come up with shriekmaw, putrefy, terminate, deathmark. Am I missing any other playable and targetable removal? Things like edicts just don't make the cut for me unfortunately.

[technogeek5000]

Umm just play devastating dreams and you realy dont have to worry about creatures. Dreams takes care of swarms and i hope to god that your creatures are going to be bigger then theirs... otherwise your playing the deck wrong. Anyways here is my current list

4 Countryside Crusher
4 Terravore
4 Goyf
4 Thoughtsieze
4 seismic assault
3 life from the loam
3 devastating dreams
4 burning wish
4 mox diamond
2 mountain
1 forest
4 wooded foothills
4 Bloodstained mire
4 forgotten cave
3 tranquil thicket
4 taiga
3 Badlands
1 Volrath's stronghold

1 Life from the Loam
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Haunting Echoes
3 Pithing Needle
1 Nostalgic Dreams
1 Pulverize
1 Deathmark
1 Hull Breach
4 Duress
1 Reverent Silence


This deck is a fucking beast. I realy wish i had the paper cards for this because then i could actually win a tournament.

[zulander]

Umm just play devastating dreams and you realy dont have to worry about creatures. Dreams takes care of swarms
If I cared about swarms of creatures I'd play deed/ee.

@everyone else with reading comprehension: Am I missing any viable targeted removal spells?

[technogeek5000]

You obviously didnt comprehend what i was trying to get across so Ill word it differently. What creatures are you afraid of... this deck creatures are always bigger then the opponents so swarms are realy the only thing you have to worry about. The only real targeted removal this deck runs currently is seismic assault and that card is house aginst everything outside of combo. Devastating dreams is better then deed or explosives in this deck because it destroys lands and it rarely hurts your creatures, making it a 1 sided board cleaner which in nearly every situation i can think of wins the game. I dont think it is a smart stradegy to dilute the deck with cards like maw or terminate since they have no synergy with the rest of the deck. Also that last comment about reading comprehension was uncalled for.

[Phantom]

If I cared about swarms of creatures I'd play deed/ee.

@everyone else with reading comprehension: Am I missing any viable targeted removal spells?

Snuff Out? Smother? Rend Flesh? Nothing stellar jumps to mind.

If you're finding that recurring Shriekmaw + Thoughtsieze + Wish targets aren't enough removal I STILL wouldn't play anything you mentioned. Deed/EE are the way to go since they hit most of the creatues you care about while not being dead against Combo or Control. Also, they can hit the things that hurt this deck the most : Counterbalance, Chalice@2, Meddling Mage, Leyline and other yard hate, and Mystic Enforcer (who I've found to be a bitch).

(Zu: You ok man? I've always found you to be intellegent and fairly courteous, but lately your responses have been a little snippy. Someone piss in you coffee this week?)

[zulander]

@technogeek: I did comprehend what you said, but if you can read through the past few posts you'll notice how I mentioned something that targeted creatures so I can wish them up and swing for the win. Also, how was the comment about reading comprehension uncalled for? Can you please describe why it was uncalled for?

@phantom: Yeah, I'd have to agree nothing else has been stellar, but I was looking for something in the board to wish for incase you can't get to shriekmaw in time.

Also, I've been a bit snippy to people that post without reading. I'm starting to get tired of people throwing out random ideas without knowing the situation beforehand. If you or nihil have been offended by me sorry, I actually enjoy carrying on converstations with people that take the time to read.

[Arsenal]

Speaking of which, what are the spot removal spells available for g/r/b? So far I've come up with shriekmaw, putrefy, terminate, deathmark. Am I missing any other playable and targetable removal? Things like edicts just don't make the cut for me unfortunately.

I like Terminate best out of all the spot removal spells you listed. It's an Instant, it's CMC2, and it hits everything in the format (not color or CMC dependant). The ONLY "drawback" I see is not having RB available early enough when you might need it. What have you found with your manabase?

[zulander]

Well the mana isn't a problem, but I guess I'm looking for something for the wish board. I'd like to make the board flexible enough to handle just about any situation.

[Illissius]

There's Deathmark, and then there's hideous three mana crap like Hand of Death. Not much in between besides Edicts and burn. If the goal is just to "swing for the win" rather than remove the creature explicitly, there's other ways of accomplishing that.

Terminate etc. aren't sorceries. (You want wish targets, right? You mentioned Putrefy and Terminate yourself, so I'm really not sure.)

[Arsenal]

Well the mana isn't a problem, but I guess I'm looking for something for the wish board. I'd like to make the board flexible enough to handle just about any situation.

If having RB available to you at any point in the game is not a problem, and you're looking for arguably the 2nd best spot removal spell in Magic, then Terminate is the way to go.

EDIT: Ah yes, sorcery speed removal... umm... yuck.

[zulander]

There's Deathmark, and then there's hideous three mana crap like Hand of Death. Not much in between besides Edicts and burn. If the goal is just to "swing for the win" rather than remove the creature explicitly, there's other ways of accomplishing that.

Terminate etc. aren't sorceries. (You want wish targets, right? You mentioned Putrefy and Terminate yourself, so I'm really not sure.)
Yeah as I was debating on whether shriekmaw or instants in the main were better. Now I'm looking for something out of the board.

[arvid]

Do you need more creature removal than 4 Burning Wish?

@Zulander: Is 24 mana sources, and 4 Mox Diamond (which is tempo, not mana until you get a LftL) enough?

[Lemuria]

Yeah as I was debating on whether shriekmaw or instants in the main were better. Now I'm looking for something out of the board.


Shiriekmaw is recurrable with Genesis and can also be an evasive beater. I'd stick with them.

However, as I told before, I think that your build miss more removal, but I didn't play tested it so I don't know. How are your overal matchups going?

[zulander]

However, as I told before, I think that your build miss more removal, but I didn't play tested it so I don't know. How are your overal matchups going?
You mean mass removal? If so then I can always wish up pyroclasm/D. Dreams/infest if I really need it. I think you should beat most decks that run hordes of 1/1's anyways. However the targeted removal is for decks like thresh that only play a couple guys and chump block slowing you down a turn.

Do you need more creature removal than 4 Burning Wish?

@Zulander: Is 24 mana sources, and 4 Mox Diamond (which is tempo, not mana until you get a LftL) enough?
I list it as mana because it produces mana.

[arvid]

@Zulander: By all means, list it as what you want, this is an off-topic discussion, but you didn't answer my question(s).

[zulander]

Ah yes, sorry forgot about that. Mana is fine, I'm contemplating adding in a few more cyclers, haven't tried it out yet though.

[Tacosnape]

You know, as for targeted removal for red without running the black splash, what about Spitebellows? It pretty much kills everything ever, including most Tarmogoyfs. The only place it would be awful where other removal spells wouldn't would be the mirror.

[zulander]

You know, as for targeted removal for red without running the black splash, what about Spitebellows? It pretty much kills everything ever, including most Tarmogoyfs. The only place it would be awful where other removal spells wouldn't would be the mirror.
Spitebellow??

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Spitebellow??Morning Tide card. Unimportant creature stats + six damage to targeted creature upon leaves play, evoke for one red red.

Could be usable, especially with Genesis.

[zulander]

He might actually be useful. Maybe a 1/1 split between him and shriekmaw?

[MattH]

Crusher is better than Terravore, that much is clear after only mild testing, but I think I don't want to drop all the Vores, because they're better in the late game - specifically, in a Genesis/Volrath's Stronghold-style lategame, where a Vore can kill in one turn, and can't be effectively chumped.

Right now I'm at 4 Goyf 1 Genesis 1 Witness 4 Crusher 3 Vore as my creature lineup, but I may drop another Vore or two, depending. The Witness has also been kind of meh.

[Joon]

// Lands
4 [B] Taiga
2 [B] Badlands
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring
4 [ON] Forgotten Cave
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [ON] Tranquil Thicket

// Creatures
4 [OD] Terravore
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [MOR] Countryside Crusher

// Spells
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [7E] Seismic Assault
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [LOR] Thoughtseize
3 [TO] Devastating Dreams
4 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [TO] Nostalgic Dreams
SB: 1 [MM] Pulverize
SB: 4 [LOR] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 [US] Gamble
SB: 1 [DIS] Crime/Punishment

This is my current list.Devastating Dreams is extremely good in here as I cut the Bob's too. Crusher will draw you in Business anyway. The only thing that is sometimes not that good as it seems is the B. Ring. The only thing it does is stopping Goyfstalls which aren't problems in a deck with 11/11 Trample dudes. And the Stormcombo MU isn't that bad as it seems. Because of 3 Dreams + 4 Wishes and Explosives he can't use Warrens safely and that gives us time to drop (post board) Thorn or 1-2 Discardspells. It's not a Dream MU but far away from autoloss.

[Nihil Credo]

Joon, a few questions about that list:

1) I've been running 1 less copies of Terravore and Devastating Dreams - I find that while insanely powerful, those cards require a bit of setup to do their job. This has actually been the standard in Extended Loam for quite some time. Do you ever find yourself with an early 2/2 Terravore, or an uncastable DDreams?
2) 23 lands, actually 22.5 because Tabernacle doesn't make mana without Mox: has that been enough for you? I'm already nervous at 26! (It's not just about drawing enough lands to play your spells - it's about making Crusher/Vore and the whole Loam engine faster and more powerful.)
3) Cabal Therapy in the side: why not Duress? It's better when you don't also have a Thoughtseize, and sacrificing a creature often means you're halving your clock.
4) Pulverize looks interesting, and I might try it out instead of Shattering Spree. Have you considered Reverent Silence instead of Hull Breach?
5) Gamble SB target is also interesting. What do you usually search with it?

[Joon]

Joon, a few questions about that list:

1) I've been running 1 less copies of Terravore and Devastating Dreams - I find that while insanely powerful, those cards require a bit of setup to do their job. This has actually been the standard in Extended Loam for quite some time. Do you ever find yourself with an early 2/2 Terravore, or an uncastable DDreams?

That's right, sometimes you got extreme mighty 2/2 Vores, but Vore and Dreams put pressure on your opponent - in my Meta there are many Thresh lists and builds that have somehow counter involved in their strategys, and these decks have to answer (especially Dreams) NOW, or they die. I'd like rather to have a dreams in my hand and can not cast it than drawing none and need it. But you could cut 1 Vore to have more space, for a witness that is recurred with Stronghold to get Assault or something like that. Often one Vore on the field is enough, especially with Stronghold dodging every non-StoP Removal in the format.



2) 23 lands, actually 22.5 because Tabernacle doesn't make mana without Mox: has that been enough for you? I'm already nervous at 26! (It's not just about drawing enough lands to play your spells - it's about making Crusher/Vore and the whole Loam engine faster and more powerful.)

You're right, 22,5 lands seems to be too less for Crusher, maybe I'll add some more. The landcount hasn't changed since the cut of Confidant for Crusher. Needs to be fixed. Thanks.



3) Cabal Therapy in the side: why not Duress? It's better when you don't also have a Thoughtseize, and sacrificing a creature often means you're halving your clock.

I'd rather like to have an halved clock than to lose a game. As you know, T.E.S. runs two Winconditions and two Tutors. The chance they got somehow two of this cards (or one Setupcard like Draw4 or D. Returns) is in my opinion too high. On the other hand you'll never Therapy for Warrens, as you can handle this tokens otherwise. I'll give Duress a chance in testing, this is the best way to find out which one is better I suppose.



4) Pulverize looks interesting, and I might try it out instead of Shattering Spree.

Yep, Pulverize is pretty cool against random.dec (Affinity), Stax and Stompys, which are sometimes played in my meta. And one slot that will win you games against more than one deck doesn't seem that bad.



Have you considered Reverent Silence instead of Hull Breach?

Not yet, but looks just better as H. Breach. I'll test it.



5) Gamble SB target is also interesting. What do you usually search with it?

If you want to dodge Extirpate you can wish Gamble and tutor one of the LftL in the main and after he's extirpated it you wish your 4th Loam from the Side. Often it's just used to tutor up 'nacle or Stronghold which I don't want to play more, so I play a tutor :tongue:

For further testings:

Main somehow adding more lands

Side: Cutting Breach for Silence, Cutting Therapy for Duress

Still tested.

[Nihil Credo]

Thanks for the answers. Just a small note:

If you want to dodge Extirpate you can wish Gamble and tutor one of the LftL in the main and after he's extirpated it you wish your 4th Loam from the Side.
Burning Wish gets any card outside the game, not just the ones in your sideboard; that includes cards removed from the game. This means that if all 4 of your Loams are Extirpated, Burning Wish can get them back.

[Joon]

Sigh. Of course, your right. I just searched arguments for Gamble in the Wishboard beside that it tutors the utility lands.

[MattH]

I like the idea of running some free spells to Wish for. Pulverize, though, I don't think I'd want unless I knew I'd be facing Affinity. Silence is golden, though. :D

[b4r0n]

Right, so 4 colors hasn't been so great. I'm back to RGb now. Swords is definitely strong, but it comes down to the fact that basic lands are extremely important, moreso than spot removal.

Regarding the sideboard, I've been playing around with this:

1 Life from the Loam
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Deathmark
1 Shattering Spree
1 Reverent Silence
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Krosan Grip

My wishboard has been consistently shrinking in size. While it's cute to have narrow answers, I find that I tend to use Wish for one of two things: either setting up the Loam engine, or destroying a troublesome permanent (read: CB/Leyline/Chalice). With my wishboard, I feel comfortable handling both of these situations. While I'd love to run Nostalgic Dreams or Punishment, they just don't seem necessary. I don't know how I feel about Pulverize yet, but I'll test it. The rest of the board is dedicated to beating combo and dealing with hate, which is essential in games 2 and 3.

[Phantom]

I completely agree with keeping it GRb. I also like your small board, but I don't see how you can live without a Therapy in there.

[DragoFireheart]

I'm a bit interested in this deck so I got a some questions about this deck type:

How does this deck handle yard hate like Crypt, Leyline of the Void and other such cards? Does it do that through the use of Wish for a sideboard answer?

Can it race combo like Ichorid/TES/Belcher/Breakfeast?

How does this deck deal with Counter-Top?

What are the win conditions once this get gets Country-Side-Crusher?

What are some bad match-ups that this deck has?

[Phantom]

How does this deck handle yard hate like Crypt, Leyline of the Void and other such cards? Does it do that through the use of Wish for a sideboard answer?

Depends. If it's spot yard hate that just removes Loam (or an early crypt) you can always just Burning Wish for Loam itself. If it's something like Leyline, you can Wish for Silence and board in Grip. Lastly a lot of builds run maindeck answers in Deed and Explosives (set it @4 with a Mox).


Can it race combo like Ichorid/TES/Belcher/Breakfeast?

Nope. That's why I run Thoughtseize main and Therapy as a wish target. Most boards include yard hate and/or Storm Combo hate.


How does this deck deal with Counter-Top?

Fairly easily from my experience. Deed. Explosives (remember you can set it at 2, but pump it's CC up to whatever you want). Grip out of the board. Wish for Reverent Silence. Discard. Or just win though it with your 3cc+ bombs.


What are the win conditions once this get gets Country-Side-Crusher?

I think the musts are:
4 Goyf
4 Terravore
4 Crusher

from there you can choose from Nimble Mongoose, Wild Mongrel, Nantuko Shady, Eternal Witness, Shriekmaw, Tombstalker, Dark Confidant, etc.


What are some bad match-ups that this deck has?

Almost all combo. Then depending on build Goblins, Dragon Stompy, 43 Lands, and Burn can be problematic.

[b4r0n]

I completely agree with keeping it GRb. I also like your small board, but I don't see how you can live without a Therapy in there.

When do you Wish for Therapy? I can't think of many things that you can't bait out or deal with. However, I was playing around with Duress over Chalice for a bit, which would give you a Wishable discard spell game 1 and additional disruption games 2 and 3. Thoughts?

[Phantom]

When do you Wish for Therapy? I can't think of many things that you can't bait out or deal with. However, I was playing around with Duress over Chalice for a bit, which would give you a Wishable discard spell game 1 and additional disruption games 2 and 3. Thoughts?

Wishing for Therapy is a pretty solid move if you just saw multiples in their hand after a Thoughtseize, but it's mostly there to fight storm combo. It's such a good wish target because you can wish for it, flash it back, and then wish for it again.

[zulander]

How many wish targets do you guys run?

[Nihil Credo]

Six for now: Loam, Devastating Dreams, Shattering Spree, Reverent Silence, Nostalgic Dreams, and Last Rites (this last one is still experimental). I can also wish for one of my 3 SB Thoughtseizes, but have yet to do so.

If I end up dropping the Last Rites I will try out Chainer's Edict (fucking Tombstalker). If that fails, too, I'll just run the third Krosan Grip or the fourth Thoughtseize.

[VuRkka]

Loam, DDreams, Shattering Spree and Reverent Silence seems to be the most common spells people wish for, addition to those I wish for Gamble and Chainer's Edict. I may be replacing Gamble with Pyroclasm or even Flamebreak, DDreams is just too situational and often I found myself facing big swarms of small critters.

For Chainer's Edict I run Bayou and Badlands in main, it seems that people don't like me having Moxen in play. Edict's flashback cost is a bit pricey but it haven't been a problem yet, its nice to force opponent to sac creatures(most of the time it gets wished for Exalted Angel/Tombstalker/Eternal Dragon) and then wish for it again.

[zulander]

Okay, I asked because this is the board I was thinking of playing:
Mainboard: 7
4 Leyline
3 Duress

Wishboard: 8
1 Loam
1 Regrowth
1 Pyroclasm
1 Shattering Spree
1 Hull Breach
1 Reverent Silence
1 Therapy
1 Chainers Edict

[zulander]

Hey guys, I've been thinking recently of maybe replacing black with blue in the deck to add another draw engine via cantrips and other cards. Here's the preliminary list I've come up with.

Note: I haven't tested the list at all and most likely it will blow chunks, but I've put it out there to brainstorm the idea(pun intended).

Mana: 24
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Polluted Delta
4 Taiga
4 Tropical Island
2 Forest
1 Island
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wasteland

Creatures: 11
4 Goyf
3 Terravore
4 Countryside Crusher

Utility/Disruption: 11
4 Burning Wish
3 Life From the Loam
4 Force of Will

Draw: 14
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Compulsive Research (Thirst for Knowledge, but it's a sorcery and for lands)
3 Fact or Fiction


So it might be ok and it might be complete jank but it's an idea I've had in my head for a while. What are your thoughts?

[fetchesbasiclands]

You could consider Intuition if adding blue.Also Academy Ruins and some recurring Artifacts like EE and Crypt from the side

[zulander]

You could consider Intuition if adding blue.Also Academy Ruins and some recurring Artifacts like EE and Crypt from the side
Intuition isn't a bad idea, but I think ruins + artifacts takes the deck in a completely different direction.

[fetchesbasiclands]

Intuition isn't a bad idea, but I think ruins + artifacts takes the deck in a completely different direction.
Yeah,I am just a fan of toolboxes,but I guess your right about that.Burning Wish already gives some versatility to this deck,so there should be no reason to make the deck more inconsistent by adding one-ofs.Those were just the first cards that popped in my mind.

[Nihil Credo]

At first glance, I like that list. One thought - with Compulsive Research, FoF, and even Brainstorm + Dredge in the deck, I would say Genesis has earned back its singleton slot.

As to what cut for it... I'd go with a Burning Wish. They're awesome and all, but with that much draw power in the deck (and you have A LOT of that... maybe too much, even, but I'll have to test it) you will find them easily, and there are many, many games where you don't need to cast it more than once.

[arvid]

I think that blue list might have the problem of "only" drawing a lot of cards. The denial/disruption/removal with 4 FOW 4 Wish is too little imo. What if a Chalice for 2 slips through? I don't see any other counters fit in the deck, so the only real thing I can propose is Engineered Explosives, and as someone said I think a lone Academy Ruins fits with Loam. Also I really miss 4 Mox Diamond in the list.

[Belgareth]

Now Don't get me wrong, I think intuition with life from the loam and acadamy ruins is possibly 1 of the best engines out there but it is not right for the aggro version.
If you go that route you end up a more controlling deck, which while not a bad idea is not the direction most people are going.
If you decide to go that route it becomes more like 43lands/eternal garden.

I think blue is not the way to go for aggro , if you need draw that badly use a few more cycling lands as 1 mana for 1 card is not terrible but it keeps you solidly in R/G. I never liked the black splash either (except in extended CAL), If anything I'd have probably gone to white.

[VuRkka]

Adding blue without Intuition seems a bit.. strange. It's true though, that Intuition would force(well, its not forced, but it will eventually end up that way) to run full control, not aggro and this topic is about aggro.

But for that zulander's list, 14 draw spells just seem to be way too much, you surely need blue cards for FoWs but are those really worth it? You will dredge most of them away anyway.

I run Confidants in my aggro version, they gave the extra draw I was looking for. Also they enable some nice little tricks with Crusher(s) on the table.


..If anything I'd have probably gone to white.
What would you add from white? StPs and Chants/Abeyances against combo?
Dropping black also means you'd have to drop Volrath's Stronghold, which most of these decks run. There's Genesis, too, but it works in very different way.

[zulander]

Yeah, it seems that the best form of draw for the rgb versions is crusher + confidant. Only problem is that I have no room for confidants in my grb build :(

[Maveric78f]

Brainstorm and intuition are strong with crusher. But the rest of the blue cards are counterproductive. In black, confidant and stronghold are the best cards. White is probably useless except for the flashback antienchantment which is really fine.

[VuRkka]

Yeah, it seems that the best form of draw for the rgb versions is crusher + confidant. Only problem is that I have no room for confidants in my grb build :(
You've listed Confidant in your RGb-list on page 6. What's your current build?

[zulander]

You've listed Confidant in your RGb-list on page 6. What's your current build?
Well I went back up to 3 loams main so I didn't have to wish for it all the time, and messed around with other stuff. Here's the list:



Mana: 29
4 Mox Diamond
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
2 Forest
4 Tranquil Thicket
2 Forgotten Cave
3 Wasteland
1 Volraths Stronghold

Creatures: 19
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Terravore
4 Countryside Crusher
1 Shriekmaw
1 Spitebellows
1 Genesis

Utility: 11
4 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
3 Loam


I have been contemplating though -1 genesis, -1 Terravore, -1 forest, +3 confidants. An early terravore doesn't seem as explosive as it used to be and he's probably the worst beater in the deck. I've also noticed that mongrel + crusher usually = gg's since they wreck people together. I'm also going with a 1/1 splite of shriekmaw/spitebellow since spitebellow helps remove problem creatures like shriekmaw/hyppie/enforcer/doran/magus of the moon etc... while shriekmaw gives you the 1cc less removal that hits goyfs and what not. It's been working perfectly fine so far.

Edit: I don't actually think I'll run confidants though, genesis is too good to cut, and then shriekmaw/spitebellows recursion would lose me too much life.

[Belgareth]

I said "If" , I would actually leave the deck R/G, but white has some interesting options.

STP
Solitary Confinement (controlling builds)
Armageddon
Flashback enchant hate
tividars crusade (should goblins be revived.)

I don't actually splash any colour, but I can see plus sides to both black and white. Blue just seems to go against the decks aim.

[quietmage]

has anyone concidered extirpate in the wishboard? i mean it seems like it might work if you extirpate on of their nonbasic lands in their graveyard..?
please, correct me if i am wrong i really have no idea

[fetchesbasiclands]

Well,you can't Wish for extirpate With B.Wish but it can be run in the board anyhow.

[quietmage]

oh... extirpate is an instant....wow i feel like a noob....

[arvid]

Gonna post my deck for feedback, and input to you.

CREATURES (15)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Countryside Crusher
3 Terravore
1 Eternal Witness

SORCERIES (13)
4 Burning Wish
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Life from the Loam

ARTIFACTS (6)
4 Mox Diamond
2 Engineered Explosives

LAND (26)
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
3 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Forgotten Cave
1 Volrath’s Stronghold


While Stronghold -> Witness -> Engineered Explosives clearly is slower than Stronghold/Genesis -> Shriekmaw/Spitebellows I have never regreted this. EE can handle Chalice=2 which is crucial for me.

[Phantom]

Gonna post my deck for feedback, and input to you.


Looks pretty solid although posting a deck without a sideboard is bad, and posting a deck with Burning wish and no sideboard is even worse.

Some minor issues:

- Cut the Badlands and basic Swamp. You're diluting your manabase through overthinking. Wasteland is almost no problem for Loam decks, and ever resolved Moons leave you access to Wish which can remove either of them. Also, you're running freaking Mox diamond which similarly laughs at them, not to mention you only run a few black spells.

- I've been arguing this since the first page and will keep arguing because I'm right, or at least I think I am. Use you mainboard 6 discard slots for 4 Thoughtseize and 2 Duress. I know how nasty Therapy is here, but it's just as nasty out of the board. The discard slots are there first and foremost to give you game against Combo, and whiffing on a blind therapy is going to kill you as they will often go off before you can drop a creature to flashback. Your build will have a real shot at turning Loams worst matchup (Storm Combo) into a good one with 6 targeted discard spells (so you are always grabbing their strongest spell, not guessing), 2 explosives, and 4 Wishes for devastating Therapies (if you've seen their hand) or answers to Empty the Warrens.

- I always like to hit my recursion engine, so I would go -1 Terravore, +1 Genesis, but that may be more of a judgement call.

[zulander]

I'd also suggest -1 Confidant +1 Crusher. -1 Mountain, +1 taiga, -1 swamp +1 forest. The only reason to run basics is moon effects, and the only basics worth running are 2 forests to make sure you can get loam active. If your opponent resolves a moon effect you can always wish -> clasm/hull breach.

Side Note: Why aren't more people playing wild mongrel? Before crusher testing between me and a few others found that mongrel was > goyf/vorre. He's the second best creature in my build behind crusher. Are people hesitant to run him because he's a 2/2 bear if you don't have the loam engine?

[Phantom]

Side Note: Why aren't more people playing wild mongrel? Before crusher testing between me and a few others found that mongrel was > goyf/vorre. He's the second best creature in my build behind crusher. Are people hesitant to run him because he's a 2/2 bear if you don't have the loam engine?

Yeah, I think he just got left out in the cold. I mean, compare him to the other beaters we have:

Goyf: Not dependant on Loam at all. Takes care of himself. Usually about as big as a Mongrel with an active Loam (without making you discard those cycling lands).
Terravore: The BEST creature to recur. The only beater we run with evasion at all (well trample).
Crusher: Not dependant upon loam in the least.
Confidant: Serves a completely different role.
Mongrel: Only decent without loam. Only a 5/5 with a fully active Loam. Good synergy with other beaters/Genesis. Shuts down cycling lands to be fully functional. Gets hit by Chalice or CB @2, which is a minus.


I'm not saying the guy isn't great, since i run him in my GB build I know that to not be true, just that space in GRb is tight and he isn't an auto include.

[arvid]

@Duress
Yes I can try that. However Cabal Therapy have the benefit of being able of taking creatures from Rock, Goblins et al, aswell as working even though dredged. Also they can kill a lethal Confidant. But yeah, I'll playtest Duress.

@Mongrel
I think he is good, he is a mini-Seismic Assault but it's hard to squeeze everything in. But if he in fact is as good as you say he could replace Tarmogoyf all together, can Tarmogoyf be cut?

[Phantom]

@Duress
Yes I can try that. However Cabal Therapy have the benefit of being able of taking creatures from Rock, Goblins et al, aswell as working even though dredged. Also they can kill a lethal Confidant. But yeah, I'll playtest Duress.


Just to clarify, I completely agree that Therapy is the BETTER card in this deck. The synergies are seemingly never ending. Just that it's not doing what the deck needs, which is quick, targeted, combo hate. The fact that I can easily run Therapy in the board (and wish for it over and over again after flashback) makes this a no brainer for me.

[DeepfriedDynamite]

Why has this deck gone to aggro control. It used to be one of the strongest board control decks in the format but now why has it become another aggro deck. The deck realy only needs to recur 1 or two creatures due to their size and it wins so i dont realy see the point in running mongrel or any other beaters. Can i see the lists that gave this deck DTW status... i was just wondering which type of aggro loam builds they were.

Also, if i was to play this deck, will it kill me not to run black. I know that its better just toi run it but because of bugdet constraints it just doesnt seem likely. If i were to play this deck, here is the build i would run.

4 crusher
4 vore (strongest creature in my build)
4 goyf
2 Genesis (recurring terravore is insane)
4 Burning wish
3 Lftl
3 Dreams (ridiculous, its a freaking 1 sided board cleaner for 2... that should outweigh the price of it getting countered. also this deck recurs most of the stuff out of the yard so discarding isnt the end of the world)
4 seismic assault (another great win con)
2 Blank (spitebellows/chalice)
4 Mox diamond
4 taiga
7 fetch
4 Cave
3 Thicket
3 Mountain
2 forest
2 Wasteland

4 Leyline
2/4 Chalice
1 Lftl
1 Dreams
1 hull breach
1 Reverent silence
1 pulverize
2/4 blank

Thoughts?

[fetchesbasiclands]

Why has this deck gone to aggro control. It used to be one of the strongest board control decks in the format but now why has it become another aggro deck. The deck realy only needs to recur 1 or two creatures due to their size and it wins so i dont realy see the point in running mongrel or any other beaters. Can i see the lists that gave this deck DTW status... i was just wondering which type of aggro loam builds they were.

Also, if i was to play this deck, will it kill me not to run black. I know that its better just toi run it but because of bugdet constraints it just doesnt seem likely. If i were to play this deck, here is the build i would run.

4 crusher
4 vore (strongest creature in my build)
4 goyf
2 Genesis (recurring terravore is insane)
4 Burning wish
3 Lftl
3 Dreams (ridiculous, its a freaking 1 sided board cleaner for 2... that should outweigh the price of it getting countered. also this deck recurs most of the stuff out of the yard so discarding isnt the end of the world)
4 seismic assault (another great win con)
2 Blank (spitebellows/chalice)
4 Mox diamond
4 taiga
7 fetch
4 Cave
3 Thicket
3 Mountain
2 forest
2 Wasteland

4 Leyline
2/4 Chalice
1 Lftl
1 Dreams
1 hull breach
1 Reverent silence
1 pulverize
2/4 blank

Thoughts?
You'd like to play one Volrath's Stronghold over the second Genesis.Also,Shattering spree is a very good Wishtarget,since it is basically uncounterable and it dodges Chalice etc..

[Derklord]

You'd like to play one Volrath's Stronghold over the second Genesis.Also,Shattering spree is a very good Wishtarget,since it is basically uncounterable and it dodges Chalice etc..
Stronghold without black splash? Seems a bit risky with only the Mox Diamonds as black mana sources.

@DeepfriedDynamite: My list looks nearly the same, but I'm playing with 4 Chalices main (still testing). I'm still pondering how many Genesis I'll play and what to cut for them (most likely a Seismic Assault and a Terravore).
Shattering Spree is one of the cards most often wished for in my wishboard.

[fetchesbasiclands]

Stronghold without black splash? Seems a bit risky with only the Mox Diamonds as black mana sources.

@DeepfriedDynamite: My list looks nearly the same, but I'm playing with 4 Chalices main (still testing). I'm still pondering how many Genesis I'll play and what to cut for them (most likely a Seismic Assault and a Terravore).
Shattering Spree is one of the cards most often wished for in my wishboard. Oh yeah,didn't notice that,you could always just play a Badlands/Bayou but I don't really know if it's Worth it

[technogeek5000]

Good to see more people running the aggroCONTROL version of the deck. Dynamite: I would probably drop a seismic assault and run 3 chalice, that way you have dreams, waste, and chalice to slow down the opponent. You also probably never want to see seismic in multiples anyway so this seems smart. Run the fourth chalice in the board and run some more combo hate. Also i was thinking that a singleton chain lightning would be a decent side addition, it is a removal spell if you need it and can get the last few points of damage in... speeding up the deck

[from Cairo]

Yea 4 Seismic Assault seems too many, I'm running 3 but they really suck in multiples. I think 2 Devastating Dreams is enough in the main too, if you have one board to wish for, it's another card that I rarely want to see more than one of.

[nightbringer]

Im going to test this list.
What do you think about it?

The blue spash makes for some nice plays.

// Lands
3 Taiga
3 Badlands
1 tropical island
1 Volcanic island
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Tolarian ruins
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 wasteland
1 Forest

// Creatures
3 Terravore
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Countryside Crusher
1 Eternal Witness
1 shriekmaw

// Spells
3 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
2 Seismic Assault
4 Burning Wish
4 Thoughtseize
2 Devastating Dreams
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Intuition

//Side

4 Leyline
4 Chalice of the void
1 Lftl
1 Dreams
1 hull breach
1 Shattering spree
1 pyroclasm
2 Krosan grip

[aTn]

Wild idea: In the blue versions (with Intuition), could Tog or Wonder be played ?

I've playtested GR, GRB and GRW versions with Burning Wish and I find it a bit slow versus fast aggro (Goblins, meathooks and other Vial based aggro decks).

Is Burning Wish really necessary (in particular in a Goblins infested meta with low combo count) ? In this type of meta, what maindeck answer to Vial would you include (EDIT: I've tested Ancient Grudge maindeck, which was good but seems like overkill. Maybe Seal of Primordium) ? From what I saw, old GW Terrageddon lists played 4 LftL maindeck and got away with it pretty well (just ask Ugo Van Djike who won countless tournaments with the deck). All this to say that I think that GR(W,B,U) aggro oriented lists could maybe drop the Burning Wishes in more aggro metas.

Keep in mind that I picked up the deck about two weeks ago... (but I did playtest a lot).

Here's a janky list I've been testing: EDIT: Deleted list since everybody and their brother seem to be posting lists in this thread... and I don't want to contribute to the 'Here's my list, now comment' trend - I'll playtest instead and wait for the storm to calm.

[meanee]

Me and a friend have been working on a really straight forward very aggro-oriented version of the deck. It is actually anly based on having "must-answer" creatures.
It is a simple rg aggro-deck without many tricks, and we've cut most of the controlish cards lige dreams (which sucks quite a lot these days anyway), seismic assault (which I will miss, but really isn't that needed in this deck) and burning wishes (which were just not doing it for us).

The list:
4 countryside crusher
4 terravore
4 magus of the moon
4 tarmogoyf
1 genesis

4 life from the loam
4 chalice of the void
3 umezawa's jitte (this slot can be pilfered with - it could be vials, og creaturekill og anything alse)
3 engineered explosives
4 mox diamond

4 taiga
4 wooded foothills
3 forest
2 mountain
3 forgotten cave
3 tranquil thicket
2 barbarian ring
2 windswept heath
2 bloodstained mire

sb
4 thorn of amethyst
3 krosan grip
4 pithing needle
3 ancient grudge
1 engineered explosives

From the limited testing I've done so far, the deck seems quite strong, there are a couple of cards that may seem out of place - especially ee, but I couldn't come up with anything better, as it eats all you opponent's goyfs, if you are in a pickle...
The beauty about this deck is that, as I started out stating, all your critters has to be answered. The crusher and the terravore are both intimidating and most times a lot bigger than the tiny goyfs. The goyfs are goyfs. A resolved magus is gg against a lot of decks...

Anyway, I just wanted to throw this out there, it is a very fun and mindless aggro-deck to play, and damn me that crusher is strong (although very very ugly and old...)

- meanee

[aTn]

CotV seems weird in your deck since you'll probably only play it at 1 (not wanting to counter your Lftl, Goyfs, etc.), and everyone knows that 2 is the new 1. Seriously, the card seems to better fit in decks like Dragon Stompy which can play CotV at 0, 1, 2. Playing it at 1 is decent vs. Threshold (pre-board) and might block removal like StoP in other match-ups, but it might also be completely dead.

Magus of the Moon looks like a good idea, I'll test it.


controlish cards like dreams (which sucks quite a lot these days anyway)

Most of the time a resolved Devastating Dreams wins the game. And "these days" D. Dreams kind of wrecks a lot of decks. It is simply nuts with Crusher (and Terravore), I really don't understand your statement. Did you test it vs Goblins ? Clearing the board leaving only Crusher, Vore or Goyfs on your side is game breaking. It's also good in other match-ups ;)

Personally, I find Seismic Assault a bit too resource demanding. For example, it might seem good vs. Goblins, but often it'll take quite a bit of time before being able to cast it, simply because they're fiddling with their Port(s)/Wastelands (you can play around Wasteland, but playing around Port is hard when you want to cast an enchantment). By the time it hits the board, you often find yourself in a loosing situation. Anyway, that's just my experience with it (maybe I don't draw enough opening hands with two Mox Diamonds, Seismic Asssault, LftL and 3 lands :) ).

[zulander]

we've cut most of the controlish cards(which sucks quite a lot these days anyway)

3 engineered explosives


...
...?

[meanee]

In my meta goblins is pretty much non-existing. Therefore the ony creatures i fight is tarmogoyf, Nimble mongoose and werebear (as good as...)
That is why I say that the dreams are not very good. Ofcourse if you fight goblins and elves and other decks with a horde of small-toughness creatures, dreams is insane, but in a metagame where none of you opponents critters will die, and it almost certainly gets countered, it just isn't any good.
The CotV is in the main to try and fight combo (which, admittedly I don't see a lot of, but I hate having an entire arch-type against which I know for sure that I have no game, game one). It is actually only in there to be played at 0 or 1...

Engineered explosives is in there because I had to have some kind of removal for goyfs and other annoying creatures, and I couldn't figure out what it should be. Suggestions are more than welcome, because I hate EE in this deck...

Thanks

- meanee

[technogeek5000]

You dont need to worry about big creatures, since you run crusher and vore so the only type of creatures that this deck needs to worry about is lots of small ones which is whyt dreams is played. Anyways dreams isnt bad against thresh. Thresh runs only a few lands to you can easily mana screw them by playing dreams for 3. Even if they counter its no that big of a deal since this deck recurs the majority of its cards out of the yard. Dreams is good in any field because it not only wrecks the opponent, but it makes your creatures bigger in the process.

[noobslayer]

I haven't tested this at all, but how does this look to people?

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [ON] Forgotten Cave
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring
4 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [B] Taiga
3 [UNH] Forest
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [MM] Mountain (1)

// Creatures
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [OD] Terravore
1 [JU] Genesis
4 [OD] Wild Mongrel
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [MT] Countrysdie Crusher

// Spells
2 [FUT] Edge of Autumn
3 [DK] Blood Moon
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [SH] Mox Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

It's a mod off one of the previous lists. It shifts some combo hate and creature removal to the board in place of more beats. Also, I'm running Moon over Magus because as much as I love Magus, it gets killed off very easy right now, and I'm considering finding room for Devastating Dreams anyways.

Edge of Autumn could become Dreams, but Edge actually looks really good for some reason.

EDIT: There is no reliable way to tutor for him, but has Anger been tested in any of these builds?

[zulander]

I haven't tested this at all, but how does this look to people?

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [ON] Forgotten Cave
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring
4 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [B] Taiga
3 [UNH] Forest
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [MM] Mountain (1)

// Creatures
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [OD] Terravore
1 [JU] Genesis
4 [OD] Wild Mongrel
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [MT] Countrysdie Crusher

// Spells
2 [FUT] Edge of Autumn
3 [DK] Blood Moon
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [SH] Mox Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

It's a mod off one of the previous lists. It shifts some combo hate and creature removal to the board in place of more beats. Also, I'm running Moon over Magus because as much as I love Magus, it gets killed off very easy right now, and I'm considering finding room for Devastating Dreams anyways.

Edge of Autumn could become Dreams, but Edge actually looks really good for some reason.

EDIT: There is no reliable way to tutor for him, but has Anger been tested in any of these builds?

Have you ever felt the want/need for burning wish?

[Xero]

I haven't tested this at all, but how does this look to people?

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [ON] Forgotten Cave
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring
4 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [B] Taiga
3 [UNH] Forest
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [MM] Mountain (1)

// Creatures
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [OD] Terravore
1 [JU] Genesis
4 [OD] Wild Mongrel
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [MT] Countrysdie Crusher

// Spells
2 [FUT] Edge of Autumn
3 [DK] Blood Moon
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [SH] Mox Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void



I think straight R/G is a good starting point for the deck, and this list looks strong. I do have a few questions though: Why Blood Moon over Magus, which can be recurred with Genesis and beat down? Also, is there a reason to run 8 fetches?

[Derklord]

Why Blood Moon over Magus, which can be recurred with Genesis and beat down? Also, is there a reason to run 8 fetches?
Without Devastating Dreams, Magus > Blood Moon.
8 Fetches are in because you really need some lands in your graveyard to make loam work properly.

I play R/G as well, and I'd never cut the Wishes because they're your life assurance against some decks (like stax).

[noobslayer]

I haven't tested it at all, nor do I really see any time to do so in the near future. I choose Moon over Magus because Moon doesn't die to creature removal, and as is, you are running a fairly robust beat down package.

I'd think about Burning Wish if I was trying to access black as well just for versatility. But in that case I'd also be running Engineered Explosives and Shriekmaw.

[from Cairo]

Burning Wish is nuts, even when its just Loam 4-7 it can make an ok hand be great. But that aside the ability to additionally grab Reverent Silence, Shattering Spree and Dev Dreams without clogging additional MD space is too good to pass up.

[Anusien]

I would suggest, with a Wishboard, to put Loam #4 in the maindeck and put a single Gamble in the sideboard. At the risk of slowing yourself down slightly, you get the 4th Loam in the main, plus the ability to Wish for a variety of targets you don't mind being binned.

[Maveric78f]

and chalice@1 shuts you down.

I'd rather play 1 gamble MD than removing LftL from SB.

[noobslayer]

I'd be more concerned with Chalice at 2. Then again, that's hardly significant against a deck with relevant threats at 3cc and MD access to Engineered Explosives. Does someone want to post a more controlish modified list?

[technogeek5000]

I'd be more concerned with Chalice at 2. Then again, that's hardly significant against a deck with relevant threats at 3cc and MD access to Engineered Explosives. Does someone want to post a more controlish modified list?

How exactly. Burning wish only gets sorceries. I have been running the more board controlling build for a while and i believe its extremely strong. here is the list i have been using as of late on MWS.

4 Countryside Crusher
4 Terravore
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Genesis
4 Burning Wish
3 Life ffrom the Loam
3 Devastating Dreams
3 Seismic Assault
3 Blood Moon
4 Mox Diamond
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Mountain
2 Forest
2 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the void
1 Blood Moon

1 Life from the Loam
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Hull Breach
1 Pulverize
1 BURN SPELL
1 BLANK

Ive found out that in the board, I sometimes want a burn spell to finish off the opponent or to kill a creature without using dreams. Sometimes they will kill your vore or crusher right before they are about to die and a topdecked wish can finish the game. I also dont know what to put in the last spot: Silence, Gamble, ...

[zulander]

Demonfire, reverent silence.

[Phantom]

For the love of chistmas would people stop running artifact removal spells in the wishboard that AREN'T shattering spree! Pulverize, Hull Breach, and Meltdown are all good cards, but can't touch Spree. I mean, the card is scalable card advantage that gets around counters, Chalice, Trinisphere, and even Counterbalance. I'm not sure there's another card in Legacy that is both this powerful, flexible, and bulletproof.

Run it. If you want to run the other stuff, run them after Spree. Spree will be better 9/10 times.

[Nihil Credo]

In particular, I'd like to speak out against Pulverize. I tried it for a while (in a build without Chalices, obv): it's faster than Spree by a turn, however its additional cost is "manascrew yourself" (lose two lands plus all Moxes). Even with Loam active, you'll take a couple of turns to recover, so it's pretty damn unlikely that Pulverize will save your ass when Spree won't.

[from Cairo]

1 Life from the Loam
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Hull Breach
1 Pulverize
1 BURN SPELL
1 BLANK

I also dont know what to put in the last spot: Silence, Gamble, ...

Silence is golden.

Hull Breach and Pulverize seem very lackluster. As pointed out Shattering Spree does Pulverize's job better, and Hull Breach next to never 2 for 1s and doesn't answer two of the biggest threats to this deck- Chalice @ 2 and Counterbalance... at least a preemptively wished for Shattering Spree is an out to Chalice. Likewise if you can grab Reverant Silence before Balance resolves it is alot harder to Counterbalance than a Hull Breach is.

[cy31791]

Hi all! This is my build of Aggro Loam, any suggestions would be more than welcome!

Lands: 26
4 Taiga
3 Badlands
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Forgotten Cave
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wasteland
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures: 15
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Countryside Crusher
3 Terravore

Spells: 19
3 Life from the Loam
3 Devastating Dreams
2 Seismic Assault
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Mox Diamond
4 Burning Wish

Sideboard: 15
3 Pithing Needle
1 Life from the Loam
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Shattering Spree
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Nostalgic Dreams
1 Reverent Silence
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Deathmark
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
2 Undecided

I have a question that Sh33p brought up on Sally: could Zombie Infestation be an alt. win con?

[fetchesbasiclands]

That list looks quite good,although I think you're SB has too many redundant Wish-targets.I,d probably go-1 Nostalgic Dreams-1 Chainer's Edict-1 Haunting Echoes-1 Duress and Put something like Chalice or Thorn in their place.With that Creaturepackage,it would most likely be a good idea to replace Therapies with Thoughtseize.

[noobslayer]

I'm wondering how good Dark Confidant is in these builds. I think if you are going into heavy black builds you should run Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, dark Confidant, Genesis, maybe Volrath's Stronghold, Cabal Pit and/or Shriekmaw. If you are running burning wish, Haunting Echoes is an automatic target as it is a ridiculously powerful wish target.

[from Cairo]

I have a question that Sh33p brought up on Sally: could Zombie Infestation be an alt. win con?

It COULD be, but it seems strictly worse than Seismic Assault. The ability to either clear the way for you're guys or ping to the dome is awesome. It's essentially a Zombie Infestation where all the zombies have haste/unblockability and cost only one discard from hand as opposed to two. Really if you resolve either one, and have an active LftL, you're opponent has 1 turn max to either win or destroy it. Also the idea of running them both seems redundant in a bad way since they are both awful without Loam and most lists can't rationalize 4x Assaults so I can't see them finding room for a worse card that fills the same function.

[technogeek5000]

Does anyone have a MU analysis for this deck. Im trying to figure out exactly how strong this deck is and if i should invest the money in the deck.

Anyways I made the following changes to my list'

Maindeck:
-1 genesis
-3 blood moon
+4 Chalice

Sideboard:
-4 chalice
-1 pulverize
-1 (BLANK slot
-1 (BURN slot)
+3 Blood moon
+1 Pyroclasm
+1 Shattering spree
+1 Chain lightning
+1 Regrowth

[fetchesbasiclands]

Does anyone have a MU analysis for this deck. Im trying to figure out exactly how strong this deck is and if i should invest the money in the deck.

Anyways I made the following changes to my list'

Maindeck:
-1 genesis
-3 blood moon
+4 Chalice

Sideboard:
-4 chalice
-1 pulverize
-1 (BLANK slot
-1 (BURN slot)
+3 Blood moon
+1 Pyroclasm
+1 Shattering spree
+1 Chain lightning
+1 Regrowth
I have to say that Chain Lightning seems very bad waste of SB space.The only very unfavorable MU is Combo.I don't see,why more people don't play this deck.Aggro,Control and Aggro-Control are all very winnable matchups.

[cy31791]

I second the need for matchups. I've only just picked up the deck, so I'm not too experienced with it or Legacy in general, but could someone give matchups for:

1. Threshold
2. Goblins
3. Landstill

and to a lesser extent
4. Dragon Stompy
5. Rock Variants

I don't think doing any combo matchups is necessary, right? We basically have to concede, don't we? I can't imagine more than a 30% win rate (being extremely generous) against Ichorid, Breakfast, TES, IGGy Pop, Belcher, etc.

[KillemallCFH]

I don't think doing any combo matchups is necessary, right? We basically have to concede, don't we? I can't imagine more than a 30% win rate (being extremely generous) against Ichorid, Breakfast, TES, IGGy Pop, Belcher, etc.Most builds play (or should play) 4 Chalices somewhere in the 75, as well as Leyline/Crypt in the board (against Ichorid/Breakfast). Those plus Devastating Dreams/Pyroclasm against EtW tokens make combo a bearable matchup. Obviously it is still not in your favor, but it is no where near the auto-loss you make it out to be. And if you happen to face Solidarity/Spring Tide, Tsunami/Boiling Seas should basically seal that match for you, assuming it resolves.

[cy31791]

I see..

Does improving the combo match up take away from all other match ups? Is it worth losing the combo match up in favor of being able to win all others?

[Jourdelune]

Can I ask the OP to fill the second post of the thread for the matchup analysis?

Thanks,

Jourdelune

[Waikiki]

I've been playing chalice MD for a while and im very satisfied it doesn't weaken any matchups in my meta and it's really good vs ***** and combo.

Im very satisfied.

Also trying out a SB with Blood moons.

[from Cairo]

I second the need for matchups. I've only just picked up the deck, so I'm not too experienced with it or Legacy in general, but could someone give matchups for:

1. Threshold
2. Goblins
3. Landstill

and to a lesser extent
4. Dragon Stompy
5. Rock Variants

I don't think doing any combo matchups is necessary, right? We basically have to concede, don't we? I can't imagine more than a 30% win rate (being extremely generous) against Ichorid, Breakfast, TES, IGGy Pop, Belcher, etc.

Using Nihil's list from a few pages back... I've found

Threshold is favorable, Chalice @1 is huge, you play a ton of bombs and they really don't play THAT many answers. All you're creatures are must answer, Loam they really can't answer unless they get Counterbalance down, the card advantage you have over them is pretty devestating. They are susceptible to Wastelock, which combined with Dev Dreams can be a nightmare for their 17ish lands, again add to that a Chalice @1 and they have no means of digging themselves out of this hole.

Goblins seems about 50/50, with Warren's Weirding it's alot easier for them to overwhelm you. Since the deck pretty much drops a huge piece of fat and then dominates the red zone. If the fatty gets answered and their is board pressure you're in danger. Seismic Assault is your control and often your win in this match up since they dodge EE pretty well. Dev Dreams can also be amazing, but generally better kept to a for 2, rather than all in- with Vial it can be a double edged sword if it leaves you too far behind on land.

I haven't tested/played against Landstill. Seems build dependent, as to how the match would go. I would think they have favor though. Wastelock will be very good in this match up though.

Dragon Stompy is a really good match up as well. Their disruption is very bad against us, Moon effects and Trinisphere hurt us very little. Chalice @2 is very bad though, if against Stompy and you have the opportunity to preemptively Burning Wish, getting Shattering Spree can be VERY massive against them. Given their disruption is mostly bad against us and their creatures are worse than ours, its mostly about keeping Chalice @2 off the board and keeping their guys unequipped.

I haven't tested/played against the Rock either. I would think that our card advantage would put us with the edge, but again alot would depend on the build. This deck doesn't really have much need overextend which is good against Deed, I think you play it out slowly and make the Rock trade 1 for 1 with your threats you eventually would overwhelm their answers.

As for Combo, Chalice is huge, Mox Diamonding out a fast clock is also really huge, the games I've won against combo have generally been. Turn 1 Land, Mox, Chalice @1, turn 2 Countryside Crusher, turn 3 Loam/Burning Wish for Loam shenanigans- Combo player dead turn 4/5. Obviously when the deck doesn't have that disruption and clock, then they get goldfished.

[SnakeEater]

I won a monthly tournament in Germany (Iserlohn) yesterday with the following list:

creature [12]
4 Countryside Crusher (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Countryside+Crusher)
4 Tarmogoyf (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Tarmogoyf)
3 Terravore (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Terravore)
1 Genesis (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Genesis)
sorcery [9]
4 Burning Wish (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Burning+Wish)
2 Devastating Dreams (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Devastating+Dreams)
3 Life from the Loam (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Life+from+the+Loam)
enchantment [3]
3 Seismic Assault (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Seismic+Assault)
artifact [10]
4 Chalice of the Void (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Chalice+of+the+Void)
2 Engineered Explosives (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Engineered+Explosives)
4 Mox Diamond (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Mox+Diamond)
lands [26]
1 Badlands (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Badlands)
1 Bayou (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Bayou)
4 Taiga (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Taiga)
4 Wooded Foothills (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Wooded+Foothills)
3 Bloodstained Mire (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Bloodstained+Mire)
2 Forest (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Forest)
1 Mountain (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Mountain)
4 Forgotten Cave (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Forgotten+Cave)
3 Tranquil Thicket (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Tranquil+Thicket)
3 Wasteland (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Wasteland)

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Krosan+Grip)
1 Devastating Dreams (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Devastating+Dreams)
1 Life from the Loam (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Life+from+the+Loam)
1 Reverent Silence (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Reverent+Silence)
1 Hull Breach (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Hull+Breach)
2 Shattering Spree (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Shattering+Spree)
1 Deathmark (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Deathmark)
1 Cabal Therapy (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Cabal+Therapy)
4 Leyline of the Void (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Leyline+of+the+Void)

My matchups was:

2:1 Rb Gobbos
1:1 TheRock
2:0 Rb Gobbos
2:0 Survival
2:1 UGr *****
2:1 4C Landstill
2:0 Rg Gobbos

I really liked the main deck and will use it in the near future without further changes. But the sideboard choices were not very good I think. What do you mean?

[technogeek5000]

How were the grips. I run 3 blood moons in their place and they seem like they would work better as you already have maindeck artifact/enchantment removal in your wishboard and they clear anything on the board, not just one target. Also how was the second shattering spree. Did you ever find yourself wishing that it was something else or did the second spree wish target come in handy.

[SnakeEater]

The 3 Grips were useful but not really necessary. I board them in against Deeds, Moat and Counterbalance. The worst enchantment of them is Deed. Explosives for 3 on my side is not on option when you have Crusher, Vore or Assault on the board. Maybe you can cut one.

The second Spree is the first card I want to cut from my SB. I never wished for it. What I am missing is a better or a second creature removal as wish target. Maybe I try Vindicate. Tomstalker was a big problem in the The Rock matchup. Onother possibility is a recurring spell like Regrowth or Nostalgic Dreams.

Before the tournament I was unsure about the Leylines. First I want to use Blood Moons in their slots. I like them but I think they only help in those matchus which are already in our favor. So I picked up the Leylines to increase the dredge matchup after boarding.

[Nihil Credo]

Chalice Loam won Iserlohn? Sweet. How many players were there?

How was Genesis? I've been relying on Burning Wish -> Nostalgic Dreams for creature recursion.

[SnakeEater]

There were 69 paticipants.

In this tournament I used Genesis only one time very effective. It was against The Rock. He had several Deeds and Vindicates. On the tournament before I could use it more often against *****. Play Crusher and took a counter, got Crusher back and took another couter, and so on.

Creature Recursion was not my intention to play Nostalgic Dreams. I recure them with Genesis. I think to use it for dredged cards, or get back an Explosives or another used sideboard card.

[noobslayer]

I know it takes it into a more controlling build, but how do people feel about Smokestack in this deck? Bloodmoon effects basically act as a trinisphere, and combine it with chalice, you can get a very lock efficient deck.

EDIT:
Something like this...

// Lands
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tranquil Thicket
2 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
3 Wasteland
1 Barbarian Ring
4 Forgotten Cave

// Creatures
3 Terravore
1 Genesis
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Countryside Crusher

// Spells
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Smokestack
3 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Devastating Dreams

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Krosan Grip

This thing just man handled an Aluren deck on MWS.

[HBspulse]

I won a monthly tournament in Germany (Iserlohn) yesterday with the following list:

creature [12]
4 Countryside Crusher (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Countryside+Crusher)
4 Tarmogoyf (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Tarmogoyf)
3 Terravore (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Terravore)
1 Genesis (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Genesis)
sorcery [9]
4 Burning Wish (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Burning+Wish)
2 Devastating Dreams (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Devastating+Dreams)
3 Life from the Loam (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Life+from+the+Loam)
enchantment [3]
3 Seismic Assault (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Seismic+Assault)
artifact [10]
4 Chalice of the Void (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Chalice+of+the+Void)
2 Engineered Explosives (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Engineered+Explosives)
4 Mox Diamond (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Mox+Diamond)
lands [26]
1 Badlands (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Badlands)
1 Bayou (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Bayou)
4 Taiga (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Taiga)
4 Wooded Foothills (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Wooded+Foothills)
3 Bloodstained Mire (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Bloodstained+Mire)
2 Forest (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Forest)
1 Mountain (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Mountain)
4 Forgotten Cave (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Forgotten+Cave)
3 Tranquil Thicket (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Tranquil+Thicket)
3 Wasteland (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Wasteland)

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Krosan+Grip)
1 Devastating Dreams (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Devastating+Dreams)
1 Life from the Loam (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Life+from+the+Loam)
1 Reverent Silence (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Reverent+Silence)
1 Hull Breach (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Hull+Breach)
2 Shattering Spree (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Shattering+Spree)
1 Deathmark (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Deathmark)
1 Cabal Therapy (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Cabal+Therapy)
4 Leyline of the Void (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=Leyline+of+the+Void)

My matchups was:

2:1 Rb Gobbos
1:1 TheRock
2:0 Rb Gobbos
2:0 Survival
2:1 UGr *****
2:1 4C Landstill
2:0 Rg Gobbos

I really liked the main deck and will use it in the near future without further changes. But the sideboard choices were not very good I think. What do you mean?

Congratulations! Very nice to see some innovating choices.

Some questions :

1. You run 12 creatures, did you ever stalled because you could'nt put enough pressure on the table?
2. Engineered explosives MD : how did this work out? Were they always useful or sometimes dead in your hand?
3. Chalice of the void : did you board them out against goblins e.g.?
4. 4 crusher, 3 seismic : Did you never have problems reaching 3 red mana?
5. Can you live without direct creature removal?

[Media314r8]

I've never played this deck with paper cards before, but I've tested loam builds on MWS without Seismic assult. Question for builds with more control elements and MB therapy: would dryad arborer have a place in the deck? he pitches to mox, blocks lackey, is recurable with loam, and can be dredged with loam and saced to dredged therapys. He also kicks the crap out the the goblin edict. I realize it might as well be a land that comes into play tapped, (summoning sick) but toehrwise he seems really, really synergistic.

[Nihil Credo]

Dryad Arbor should never be played in any deck.

[zulander]

Dryad Arbor should never be played in any deck.

[Media314r8]

THINK

--------
|........|
|........|
|........|
--------

Dryad arborer was actually really, really good in T2 dredge. It has potential.

[Ranarion]

blocks lackey,[...]. He also kicks the crap out the the goblin edict.
You don't need anything to make the goblin matchup better. I played round 3 in Iserlohn against SnakeEater with rbgw goblins. I never had a real chance to win. In my opinion goblin is nearly a bye for aggro loam.

[Nihil Credo]

THINK

--------
|........|
|........|
|........|
--------

Dryad arborer was actually really, really good in T2 dredge. It has potential.
You mean Vintage Manaless Dredge, right? That's the one situation where it worked, because its drawbacks were meaningless in contest. CIPT doesn't matter if the deck is manaless, and giving the opponent 1cc Stone Rains doesn't matter when the format has little or no removal. In Legacy, however, none of this applies, and Arbor sucks as much as it did in T2 (where it saw little play).

[Media314r8]

You don't need anything to make the goblin matchup better. I played round 3 in Iserlohn against SnakeEater with rbgw goblins. I never had a real chance to win. In my opinion goblin is nearly a bye for aggro loam.

I just played against an aggroloam build on MWS (compotent opponent) and won with Rb Goblins. The 4c manabase might have helped you out against goblins, as you moons actually hurt them. I certainly wouldnt call goblins a bye. recurring edict + basic lands + mana denial > big, dumb guys. Bolt and assult hurt, if you can get assult online, but otherwise you need to rip like a champ with crusher to put them on a decent clock.

[zulander]

I've lost a total of 2 games to goblins, both of which were because it was my fault. Honestly I'd have to say the matchup is 60-40 preboard and goes up to 70-30 post board in my version.

[Media314r8]

I can accept the 60-40 preboards, but how do you increase the MU to 70% postboards?

[Waikiki]

Has scouting trek been thought of as a wish target? With crusher in the game it can seal the deal in one lethal swing. But I think it's simply overkill.

[Nihil Credo]

My Goblin matches show a huge correlation between winning and any of the following:

1) Resolve Seismic Assault
2) Resolve DDreams
3) Stick a couple of big creatures within the first four turns.
4) T1 Chalice on the play (or EE@1 when you know the matchup) to stop the broken starts - this usually guarantees you time to start your engine.

Goblins has gotten worse since players started actually running Weirding, because now 3) is considerably more difficult to achieve; I'd estimate it's now a 50/50 crapshoot. If they don't run Weirding, then you're advantaged, probably in the order of 60/40.

Also, Chalice Loam (with SB Moons) won a big Spanish tournament! (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=14070) Two other Loam builds were in the T8: that means DTB forum next month again - and DTB status if there's just one more placement, yay!

EDIT: @Scouting Trek: Most lists run between 4-8 basics at the most. That puts it out of consideration.

[Tacosnape]

I definitely like that Chalice build. Although due to Tacosnape's rule of Dark Rituals (I -never- draw them in tournaments, and this probably carries over to Mox Diamonds as well), I'd probably never manage to get a fast enough start to do any good with it.

I'm a little ehh about the sideboard choices, though. I can see Blood Moon, but Duress over Thoughtseize? And no removal spell of any sort vaguely resembling a Chainer's Edict? And Pulverize on top of Shattering Spree?

[zulander]

I can accept the 60-40 preboards, but how do you increase the MU to 70% postboards?

E. Plague

[SnakeEater]

Congratulations! Very nice to see some innovating choices.
Thanks.

1. You run 12 creatures, did you ever stalled because you could'nt put enough pressure on the table?
Not really. I allways have a creature on my side. The only problem I realized is an early Vore. Specially when you have loam, too. In that case I would go Loam for only a Fetch and/or a cycle land and begin dredging.

2. Engineered explosives MD : how did this work out? Were they always useful or sometimes dead in your hand?
Explosives increases your Dredge, EtW Combo and Counterbalance matchups slightly. You also can use it very effectively against Gobbos like Nihil mentioned a few post before. I never thougt that it was a dead card.

3. Chalice of the void : did you board them out against goblins e.g.?
Yes of course I did.

4. 4 crusher, 3 seismic : Did you never have problems reaching 3 red mana?
No, I never missed red mana for my Crusher(s). Assault was another point because of its RRR, but I never want to play it too fast. I first try to develop my manabase and get Loam Engine running before casting Assault.

5. Can you live without direct creature removal?
Yes, I think I can live without it. I played Deathmark in first instance to kill Meddling Mages or Goyfs. I just want to ask you how do you handle such a big flyer like trashed Enforcer, Exalted or Tombstalker?

@Gobbo matchup: I agree with zulander and Nihil. The goblin matchup is not an autowin, but slightly in our favor. The situations Nihil pointed out determinated very good if we can win or not.

[noobslayer]

Chainer's Edict is an option against big guys.

EDIT: The smokestack build didn't work out. Seismic Assault is just too good to pass up. Also, Terravore is considerably better than Crusher. I also don't believe this deck needs Burning Wish, despite a lot of people having success with it. I think I just prefer having a sideboard with more than one or two actual things to board in.

[technogeek5000]

Chainer's Edict is an option against big guys.

EDIT: The smokestack build didn't work out. Seismic Assault is just too good to pass up. Also, Terravore is considerably better than Crusher. I also don't believe this deck needs Burning Wish, despite a lot of people having success with it. I think I just prefer having a sideboard with more than one or two actual things to board in.

I dont know about that. I have always found crusher better then vore. Counrtyside crusher works better with fecthes, cycle lands, and loam, can randomly grow amzingly fast with a few lands in a row on the top of your deck, and makes your draws consideribly better. Crusher can attack for 10+ on turn 3-4 which vore cant do. Also im also going to have to disagree on wish to. Having loam 4-7 and a out to anything maindeck is quite amazing.

[noobslayer]

I think my thing was, when Terravore comes down, it's good to go usually. Crusher can take a little bit of investment. Also about Burning Wish... I used to love the card, all over the place too; wherever I could fit it. Now I just want stuff in the maindeck now, and a well fleshed out sideboard available.

[from Cairo]

I think my thing was, when Terravore comes down, it's good to go usually. Crusher can take a little bit of investment.

Mid/Late game (specially post DD) when Terravore comes down its good to go. Turn 2 off Mox Diamond its not nearly as impressive as Crusher, they are both usually 3/3s at that point and Crusher grows much faster. And it additionally draws you into business as long as it remains on the field.


Also about Burning Wish... I used to love the card, all over the place too; wherever I could fit it. Now I just want stuff in the maindeck now, and a well fleshed out sideboard available.

IMO it's really too strong to drop. It insures we get Loam going and gives us access to alot of what we'd be looking for post board anyway, weenie sweepers, enchantment/artifact hate, etc. There are some decks where I've felt its clunky, this isn't one of them though.

[noobslayer]

@ from Cairo: What are the bare minimum number of wish targets you feel the deck can safely run? Could you also run less than the commonly alloted four Burning Wishes?

[from Cairo]

@ from Cairo: What are the bare minimum number of wish targets you feel the deck can safely run? Could you also run less than the commonly alloted four Burning Wishes?

In order to justify using Burning Wish I think you need the 4 below cards in your SB.

1 Shattering Spree
1 Reverent Silence
1 Life From The Loam
1 Devastating Dreams

Anything beyond that is going to be situationally very powerful, but they are more situational than the above 4 and fairly often unused (Deathmark/Edict, Pyroclasm, Last Rights/Thoughtseize/Duress, Nostalgic Dreams).

4 Wishes increases the chances of opening hands being "keep" rather than mulls, since you then have 7 cards in the deck to enable it's main engine. Obviously the less Wishes you run the less justified the Wishboard is... so if your running 2-3 Wishes then often the first one will be grabbing Loam and the 2nd will likely be to destroy an opponent's permanent. Of coarse running 2-3 you are less likely to see them (even less so in multiples) so you're more likely to feel they aren't pulling their weight. I think 4 is the right number, I would sooner run 4 in a 61 card MD, than 3 in a 60 card MD (granted I would sooner cut most anything else in the list to get the deck back down to 60).

[SnakeEater]

I think Burning Wish is absolutely necessary. Beside the flexibility to use sideboardcards and grep a solution for trickey situations I have another good argument for it. I faced a lot of Extirpates in the last and the tournament before. All my opponents thought that it was a good idea to remove Loam from the game to stop the decks engine. But when you have access to it via Burning Wish the Extirpate was an useless spell for them and a good one for us because there are no more other copies of Loam in our library which are dead draws after the first one.

The choice between Terravore and Crusher is a little bit trickey. In the early game Crusher is a lot better than Vore. It is bigger and grows faster. The only drawback is the lack of trample. Nearly each play let him grow. Mox Diamond -> Crusher grows, fetch -> Crusher grows, waste -> Crusher grows, Cycle -> Crusher grows, DDreams -> Crusher grows, use Assault -> Crusher grows, Dredge -> Crusher grows nearly every time and not to forget his own upkeep trigger. The synergy between Loam and Crusher is also better than between Vore and Loam. A resolved Loam decreases the Vores power and toughness often by -3/-3. The pro for Vore is trample. I can imagine a situation where I whished the Crusher has trample too. I faced a Troll Ascetic in one game. Normaly it comes to the point where the opponents are forced to chump with their creatures so that they aren't dieing. In exchange their creatures die. Not many decks can play a creature every turn to block the Crusher. So it overpowers the opponent only with its presence.

In the end it is everybodys own oppinion how many copies of each creature you will play.

[Nihil Credo]

Yes, I agree with fromCairo and SnakeEater. If Extirpate had never been printed, then I'd be OK with running, say, Gamble to pad the LftL count instead.

As it is, Burning Wish is by far the best solution to have consistent access to Loam, and when you factor in the ability to grab the key Devastating Dreams it's hard to argue against it. That it also gives you MD access to artifact/enchantment hate (in addition to EE) is just icing on the cake.

[zulander]

I think my thing was, when Terravore comes down, it's good to go usually. Crusher can take a little bit of investment.
You're kidding me right? It's almost the exact opposite. I usually sit there and let crusher grow on his own while trying to get to loam asap for terravore. But this discussion silly because if you're playing aggro loam then you're playing 4 of each.


Also about Burning Wish... I used to love the card, all over the place too; wherever I could fit it. Now I just want stuff in the maindeck now, and a well fleshed out sideboard available.
B. Wish wins you games you're not supposed to win. It's like replacing good cards that have amazing utility with some ok cards that don't have utility. What exactly have you replaced them with btw?

[noobslayer]

Umm, I think it was Blood Moons.

[noobslayer]

This is the build I'll be testing as I have time:

// Lands
3 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [UNH] Forest
3 [UNH] Mountain
4 [ON] Forgotten Cave
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [B] Taiga
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 [OD] Terravore
1 [JU] Genesis
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [MOR] Countryside Crusher

// Spells
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [EX] Seismic Assault
2 [TO] Devastating Dreams

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [TO] Nostalgic Dreams
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 [DK] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams

A few things first:

1. No Barbarian Ring? I'm not sure if this slot is ever actually worth it as it might just be something cool once in a while. Yes, it can act like a lightning Bolt with either Crusher or 'Vore, but we have so many other things to do this.

2. Wish Board. I'm going to see how this works out for me. I'm running what others have felt was the bare minimum plus Nostalgic Dreams, because that card can be just game breaking.

3. The rest of the sideboard. I need input here, as the rest of the board just feels kind of sketchy at best.

[Nihil Credo]

While Blood Moon is undeniably powerful, doesn't a playset of 4 Leylines of the Void offer much better returns? Most of the decks Blood Moon helps against (Thresh, Landstill, Survival) are already good or even. By comparison, Leyline of the Void hoses Ichorid (nigh-impossible), Cephalid Breakfast (tough), any form of mirror, 43 Lands (tough - fucking Mazes). I've even boarded a few copies against 4-Tombstalker decks, which otherwise have this nasty tendency to just pummel you with a bit of discard and a quick four-turn clock.

EDIT: Of course, the above assumes a varied meta. Paco Copete won a large tournament with Moon in the side and zero graveyard hate, but I suppose he knew full well he was taking the losses against graveyard decks and just called the metagame on it.

Also, I haven't liked Thorn of Amethyst at all as combo hate, which is why I grudgingly added a Badlands for SB Thoughtseizes. After doing so, though, I found a nice thing about them: when you want to board out Chalice (Goblins, X-Stompy), they are a perfect replacement for them - they even don't get shut down by opponents' Chalices, since they will save them for 2cc anyway.

Other than those changes and the lack of maindeck Genesis, my build is identical to yours :)

[noobslayer]

What does your sideboard look like?

[Nihil Credo]

Same as yours with the replacements I described (Leyline and Thoughtseize instead of Thorn and Moon).

EDIT: While I'm at it, the maindeck is: -1 Genesis +1 EE, -2 Bloodstained Mire +1 Forest +1 Badlands

[noobslayer]

Do you ever miss having Genesis? Or is just rolling into any threat enough for you?

[technogeek5000]

I played at hadley today with the deck. Event though i lost i learned 3 things, mostly pertaining to the RG builds.

#1. Lightning bolt: When i was testing for the tournament i was extremely underwhelmed with Chalice of the void. The card comes down turn 2 unless you have it with a mox diamond in your hand and by that time the opponent is going to have played their most relevant 1cc card. Also chalice is subpar to every other 2 cast spell in the deck so your not going to want to play it second turn anyways. The deck has no 1 turn plays outside of cycling or mox diamond plays so i was looking for a good one cast card and came across bolt. First off its a instant, and being the only instant in the deck it makes goyf grow larger. Second, it smoothes the curve giving you more early plays. Also the deck has no targetted removal and lightning bolt actually hits alot more creatures in the format then most people realize. Plus the fact that it can finish the opponent if they are low on life.

2# Genesis: This card is a house. It should be run in every single aggro loam build without question. Because of this singleton any control matchup becomes alot more favorable. It gives the deck more ways to use its grave and if your dregding creatures in the yard you can bring them back. Genesis gives the deck 2 important things even as a 1-of: Consistency and inevitability.

3# Leyline: I advise people to play this card in their boards. Yes, you cant hardcast it, but is that realy a issue. The big decks that your going to be boarding it against wont care if it comes down anylater then the first turn as these decks are particularly fast and will combo you out before you would have had a chance to hardcast it anyways.

Also replacing 1 mountain for 1 barb ring was awesome.

[honz]

I must say chalice a very strong card, even turn 2. There is no game breaking 1cc spell, short of dark ritual. Sure they get one of them out, but 1 of their 12+ should not be a factor. If you want lightning bolts, run barbarian ring...

I do agree that the deck doesnt have a turn one play. "Forest, cycle, pass" is an underwhelming waste of a turn. Has anyone tried out mongoose as a 1 drop slot, even with chalice in the main. The 2 do clash but i dont see it as being a huge problem. The shroud offers some much needed protection, in case genesis is hiding. I think mongoose has something to offer, the only problem is finding room. It could replace some goyf / vore, as crusher serves the beater role better than goyf / vore, and goose can offer early pressure and be hard to get rid of. Just some ideas...

[Nihil Credo]

@n00bslayer: When I cut Genesis, I fully expected to miss it. I didn't: this deck has a dozen of ways to set up a 2-3 turn clock, and in the late-game the Loam engine gives you some utterly ridiculous velocity (velocity = number of cards seen / turn). Plus, with most control decks running only ~8 hard counters, I've resolved a ton of game-winning Nostalgic Dreams.

@Technogeek:

- Lightning Bolt: I dearly love Chalice because first, it preemptively handles Swords to Plowshares and Extirpate, which are among the cards I most hate to see played against me (a distant third, because it often lands before Chalice, is Sensei's Divining Top, aka "50% of No Loam Combo");. Second, it solidifies the #1 most common matchup, Threshold; third, it gives you a G1 chance against combo decks; fourth, it single-handedly swings random tough matchups like Burn.

The problem you describe (resolving later than the opponent's first one-drop) is something I encounter in two matchups: Goblins and Cephalid Breakfast. Against everything else, one-drops are of little consequence - this deck laughs in the face of a Nimble Mongoose.

If you want to replace it with something, I'm 90% certain the correct choice is Thoughtseize, not Lightning Bolt. Bolt is only really useful to deal with turn 1 Lackey, since everything else it kills can be dealt with in 12 other ways (2 DDreams, 4 Wish, 3 EE, 3 Assault); just as importantly, any time your opponent isn't so gracious as to play a combustible one-drop (or two-drop on the play) Bolt must either be sent to the face, a suboptimal play, or kept in reserve, defeating its purpose as an efficient turn 1 play. At least Thoughtseize shores up on some of the deck's weaknesses.

- Genesis: This card thoroughly disappointed me since my early testing. For every time that I dredged it and used its ability, there were infinitely more that it clogged my hand as a god-awful way to spend 4G.

If I were playing in a control-filled meta, my recursion of choice would be Volrath's Stronghold, which has been in and out of my list for the last couple of months. It plays much better with the rest of the deck in those 90% of games where you don't need recursion.

- Leyline: I agree with everything you said.

- Barbarian Ring: What did Ring do for you? I have little experience with it, and none in this specific build. I planned to give it a spin after Paco Copete ran it as a singleton.

@Honz: See above. Try fitting 2-3 black duals in the manabase and playing Thoughtseize as your one-drop. I don't think it's better than Chalice, but I think it's a close second. Pity they don't play well together, other than against combo...

[chokin]

This deck looks really hot, first of all. But how does it do against Threshold? There are a lot of really mean maindeck things that Aggro Loam ignores like having 8 3cc beaters(plus Assault), having Engineered Explosives, and being able to fight off possible Wasteland with Loam. But at the same time, there is vulnerability to Spell Snare and CB@2. Just wondering how the matchup looks.

Also, the builds splashing black only splash for Duress/Therapy/Seize and maybe Leyline...is it worth it? or is RG the way to be?

[SnakeEater]

I agree with the sideboard choices Nihil explained. I will try them though. When you add some black Duals you also have the posibillity to hardcast a Leyline. It must not be very good but can be good. And the chance to cast an Explosives for :4: is also increased.

When you don't want to play Chalice main, then replace them with Discard. Creature one-drops are bad in a Tarmogoyf Meta. Goyf will be bigger than Kird Ape or Mongoose most of the time he drops. And I would say that a second turn Chalice@:1: is much better then any other two-drop - depending against which deck your are playing.

The decision between Genesis and Volrath's Stronghold is not easy. The abilities of them cost both three Mana and can be activated only once in a turn. I prefer Genesis, because it harmonizes better with Crusher. The advantage is that the creature goes directly to your hand and you don't loose a draw. You can arrange that with Stronghold too, but it will cost you another card (Cycling-Land) and another mana. The pro is that it can be done at instant speed. A second counter-argument is the activation cost of :1::b:+tap itself instead of :2::g:. When you play Dark Confidant maindeck, I would choose the land instead.

1. That leads me to a question. When you would play Confidant and Crusher and you have both in play, which trigger will you put on the stack first? Do you risk to take 2+ damage every turn and keep your hidden draw, or would you reveal a random card for the Confidant first and then a second one for Crusher?

2. And another question: What is your play in the following situation? Your opponent generates 14 EtW tokens turn one. You have 3 lands, Mox Diamond, Explosives and a seventh card in your hand. Would you play Land - Mox - Explosives for :0: - activate it so that you will loose your mox, or would you play - Land - Go - take 14 dmg - Land - Explosives for :0: - activate it and keep your Mox? And why?

[georgjorge]

I'm just starting trying out this deck, and I have a question: to me, it seems that in this deck Loam is usually a mid- to late-game card which is being used to produce recurring card advantage AFTER your other threats have been dealt with (if they have not killed the opponent)...of course, there are situations when you'll be happy to cast Loam first or second turn (usually with a Diamond involved), but in general I want to cast Goyfs, Confidants, Vores and Crushers first (especially Crusher and Confidant, since they provide card advantage)...anyone else think this is right, or am I playing the deck very wrong ?

[noobslayer]

@ the above scenario. I'd say blow he explosives early. There's no need to take that much damage when you are more than likely to draw into gas and get rolling anyways.

[MattH]

There is no game breaking 1cc spell, short of dark ritual.
Aether Vial disagrees!


2. And another question: What is your play in the following situation? Your opponent generates 14 EtW tokens turn one. You have 3 lands, Mox Diamond, Explosives and a seventh card in your hand. Would you play Land - Mox - Explosives for - activate it so that you will loose your mox, or would you play - Land - Go - take 14 dmg - Land - Explosives for - activate it and keep your Mox? And why?
Uh, basically never take the 14. You'll have two lands minimum, which is enough to get a Loam plan going. Also, it is super super super easy for a storm deck to Tendrils (or Belcher) you out from 6 life (or less if you're fetching).

There's basically no situation where I'd take 14. I was about to say "If the two lands I kept were Stronghold and Forgotten Cave" but then I realized I should have pitched the Stronghold to the mox instead of whatever else.

[zulander]

So I top 4ed last saturday at the final frog tournament (22 players) with the list I posted a few pages back. For some reason I've never been able to consistently beat thresh. Has anyone here ever been able to consistently beat thresh? Here's a build I've been thinking about:

Mana: 29
4 Mox Diamond
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Stronghold
4 Thicket
2 Forgotten Cave

Creatures: 14
4 Goyf
4 Crusher
4 Terravore
1 Genesis
1 Shriekmaw

Utility: 16
4 Chalice
4 Burning Wish
3 Loam
3 Devastating Dreams
2 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline
3 Krosan Grip (Maybe Choke??)
3 Trinisphere
1 Reverent Silence
1 Loam
1 Therapy
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Shattering Spree

So some notes is that I may cut mongrel completely and add in 1 shriekmaw and 1 more land.