[Discussion] Free mana.

[DragoFireheart]

I remember a long time ago when Lion's Eye Diamond and Lotus Petal were banned in 1.5.

After having come back to magic since taking a break at the start of the Mirrodin block and seeing some crazy combos come up [Bridge, TES, Iggy Pop, CRET Belcher] and it seems every one of them has LED or both of the free mana makers.

Why where the two cards made legal again? Doesn't it seem a bit odd that these decks can go off on turn-0/1? Shouldn't that sort of speed be kept within the realm of Type 1? Can this combo decks that rely on LED [and Lotus Petal to a lesser extent] still work without them? Do you feel they should be re-banned? Would banning these 2 cards help or hurt the current meta?

[Nihil Credo]

Because they all have some sort of drawbacks, and without Moxen you can't abuse them as consistently.

Yes, I don't like it, but so far there are enough viable and versatile counterstrategies available (EE, Chalice, Leyline, not to mention the dominance of FoW decks) that I don't feel a banning is yet necessary

Consistently killing on turn 1 is indeed in the realms of Vintage. But if most of the time all they do is put a bunch of tokens into play, that's a lot easier to handle (hell, even Pernicious Deed works on the play).

They could, but they would suck.

Not yet. I think that once the decks get another good card or so, and once they pull at least a 50/50 against a Fish/Thresh player of comparable skill, it will be worth discussing.

Hurt. Without some combo in the format, dedicated board control will become the best deck. So you'd turn a playable archetype into unplayable, in order to turn a mediocre archetype into Tier 1. I'm not sure that's a good trade.

[Bovinious]

When Type 1 and 1.5 split creating Legacy, WOTC decided they would unban a lot of the mana cards such as LED, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, Lotus Petal, and ban all of the combo engines they thought were problematic, such as Hermit Druid, Worldgorger Dragon, Metalworker, Goblin Recruiter, Illusionary Mask, Oath of Druids, Replenish, etc. WOTC figured that these tamer fast mana cards would be okay as long as there were no broken things to do with them (no 1-of broken cards like in Type 1, banned other combo cards), and it appears they were right. After Legacy was created many people were anticipating a "Combo Winter" that never really happened.

[FoolofaTook]

Lion's Eye Diamond is the single factor that makes Ill-Gotten Gains work for fast kills. Other synergies work to speed the deck up but the potential to recur two LED's and an Infernal Tutor off of Ill-Gotten gains is what makes the fast Storm-based kills work.

They should print a card with all of Lion's Eye Diamond's characteristics except it should be removed from game when sacrificed. That would break the recursion chains that lead to rare turn 1 kills and frequent turn 2 and 3 ones.

A friend and I started from the list that Menendian printed for IggyPoP and worked out from there and it's pretty obvious that there are some very broken variants to be found if people look hard enough.

[Kronicler]

You do realize that the best combo deck in the format right now, Cephalid Breckfast, doesn't run LEDs, right? You also realize that IGGy Pop hasn't seen a top 8 apperance in.... almost a year, right? And finally, do you realize that the most accepted list of Belcher (R/G), the 2nd best combo deck in the format, doesn't even run infernal tutor or IGG? LED is completely fair in this format, and so is lotus petal.

Kronicler

[troopatroop]

You do realize that the best combo deck in the format right now, Cephalid Breckfast, doesn't run LEDs, right? You also realize that IGGy Pop hasn't seen a top 8 apperance in.... almost a year, right? And finally, do you realize that the most accepted list of Belcher (R/G), the 2nd best combo deck in the format, doesn't even run infernal tutor or IGG? LED is completely fair in this format, and so is lotus petal.

Kronicler

Amen.

[sammiel]

Lion's Eye Diamond is the single factor that makes Ill-Gotten Gains work for fast kills. Other synergies work to speed the deck up but the potential to recur two LED's and an Infernal Tutor off of Ill-Gotten gains is what makes the fast Storm-based kills work.

They should print a card with all of Lion's Eye Diamond's characteristics except it should be removed from game when sacrificed. That would break the recursion chains that lead to rare turn 1 kills and frequent turn 2 and 3 ones.

A friend and I started from the list that Menendian printed for IggyPoP and worked out from there and it's pretty obvious that there are some very broken variants to be found if people look hard enough.


theres nothing broken about combo decks that say 'I lose if you have FoW'

[DeathwingZERO]

Seconded (Kronicler and Sammiel). The decks abusing the LED the most have the crucial issue of being stopped by a single piece of disruption. Sure, LED is basically a Lotus as far as IGGy is concerned with the addition of Orim's Chant maindecked, but even Chant can be countered.

As far as the other ones, it's exactly as stated. Old Belcher lists post-split were just as explosive, but LED was the single most risky card in the deck next to Spoils. TES and other decks are now generating a ton of mana via the spells, not artifacts, so even they wouldn't be slowed drastically from LED or Petal being banned again.

All in all, they made it very fair from the banning choices when giving us back these pieces. They both have drawbacks, and while LED especially is insanely explosive, you turn yourself into a one spell GG against control.

[FoolofaTook]

theres nothing broken about combo decks that say 'I lose if you have FoW'

Unless I miss my guess we're about to see a bunch of combo decks with FoW, and Daze or Pact of Negation. It's the obvious next step in a meta full of combo and Threshold Goyfs.

[Xero]

Are those decks going to be playing LED and/or Petal? I kind of doubt it-most combo decks are either going to be Combo control (like Breakfeast), which are slower but use disrutption, or faster decks that can't afford FoW or Daze but play free mana cards.

[FoolofaTook]

Are those decks going to be playing LED and/or Petal? I kind of doubt it-most combo decks are either going to be Combo control (like Breakfeast), which are slower but use disrutption, or faster decks that can't afford FoW or Daze but play free mana cards.

I'm guessing they're going to be decks with a lot of blue draw and some potential god draws that will let them win on a laydown, but the plan will be turn 3 or 4. Just fast enough to avoid being destroyed by a Goyf on a rampage and to avoid having to say no to a faster combo deck twice.

I think LED has a really good chance to be part of the package but I doubt Lotus Petal will be there.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

theres nothing broken about combo decks that say 'I lose if you have FoW'That's why several combo decks run disruption.

Cabal Therapy, Duress, Pact of Negation...