[Card] Vigor

[Wallace]

Heat :3::g::g::g: 6/6

Creature - Elemental Incarnation

Trample

Whenever damage would be dealt to another creature you control, prevent it. Put a +1/+1 counter on Heat for each damage prevented in this way.
When Heat would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Heat, then shuffle it into its owner's library instead.

Wow this looks like it might see some play. Anyone see it fitting in any where?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I don't like it.

It cost six, green can do better then that for six. It's only a little recurable, not as good as Gigapede, but better then nothing.

{EDIT: Upon second revew, it does make all of your other creatures alot harder to kill, and gets stronger from it. I wish it costed less so it would work in a Pyroclasm aggro deck.

I do kind of like it. EDIT OVER}

"Heat?" That doesn't seem very descriptive, especially when compared to Chill. Unless heat is used in a different way.

You know what I'm talking about.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Awesome card, but six mana just won't cut it in the eternal formats. I prefer Gigapede, myself. If "Heat" did something from the grave, though, it would be a different story. I suppose that the Incarnation cycle will all be shuffling themselves back in, eh? Something interesting could come of that, certainly. At the very least, Brain Freeze won't kill you. :wink:

[Zilla]

Its casting cost is extremely prohibitive. You could power it out with Elves, but in a metagame where most decks have Pyroclasm or Engineered Explosives or Engineered Plague to answer Goblins that seems like a losing proposition. You could run it in a control shell, except what control shell in existence can reliably support :g::g::g: in the casting cost, and besides that, how good is it in a deck without a lot of other creatures? You could reanimate it, but if you're doing that, why wouldn't you just reanimate a creature that will win you the game? Also, the damage immunity would seem pretty solid, and its pump ability would be awesome in conjunction with a card like Pyroclasm. The problem is that Swords to Plowshares completely negates its effect. I'm pretty sure it's unplayable in Legacy.

[Solpugid]

You could run it in a control shell, except what control shell in existence can reliably support GGG in the casting cost, and besides that, how good is it in a deck without a lot of other creatures?

Well, that sounds like survival to me. But that said, I agree that there are plenty of better creatures for far less mana. would anyone care to power it out with natural order?

[Tacosnape]

Its casting cost <snip> is unplayable in Legacy.

Shortened for accuracy.

Survival doesn't run Silvos and it won't run Heat/Passion/whatever. And no other deck will attempt something with that cost that can't be cheated into play.

[Meekrab]

Wow this looks like it might see some play. Anyone see it fitting in any where?
Lorwyn limited.

Also, why the Monica Belluci's panties is an elemental called "Heat" not red?

[mikekelley]

The card's name is Vigor, not Heat, according to new information

[kabal]

Its casting cost is extremely prohibitive.

What about Natural Order (http://magiccards.info/po/en/101.html) in some sort of Secret Force type build.

[nupert]

You could reanimate it...

How? The replacement effect makes this impossible, or am I missing something?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Yeah you have to stifle the ability thene you could reanimate it!

[Nightmare]

You could cast Necromancy in response to the trigger...

[nupert]

You could cast Necromancy in response to the trigger...

That word "instead" in the rules text assures that this card will never be put into the graveyard.

[Nightmare]

That word "instead" in the rules text assures that this card will never be put into the graveyard.
Actually, the word "When" assures you will have the ability to respond.

Look at the difference in wording between this and Darksteel Colossus, for more clarity:

Colossus:
If Darksteel Colossus would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Darksteel Colossus and shuffle it into its owner's library instead.

Heat:
When Heat would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Heat, then shuffle it into its owner's library instead.

Note how one starts with IF (replacement effect), and the other starts with WHEN (Triggered ability).

EDIT - Actually, that wording is a clusterfuck. It's templated as a cross between a replacement and a trigger. I have no idea how it will work.

[DeathwingZERO]

I can only assume the fact that it says "reveal" means that it's not going to hit the graveyard, in addition to it saying "would". So I am under the assumption this is how they do the avatar/colossus ability from the library/hand/play zones now, wording wise.

I just hope this isn't the case. The card is way too busted in the other formats, especially following Tarmogay.

[TheMightyQuinn]

Its being called "Vigor" now.

I can't help but wonder what the art would have been if the name truely was "Heat".

[Ewokslayer]

Its being called "Vigor" now.

I can't help but wonder what the art would have been if the name truely was "Heat".

Probably a photo of Robert DeNiro Looking bad ass

[Nightmare]

Probably a photo of Robert DeNiro Looking bad assOr two dogs banging it out.

[CleverPetriDish]

The wording is translation. If it is not a replacement I can't imagine how it would be templated. Count on the WHENEVER turning into IF.

[FoolofaTook]

It might work in a B/G deck running very fast mana and a lot of disruption. Of course that works against the protecting other critters theme since there wouldn't be a lot of other critters in that kind of shell.

[Nihil Credo]

I see very little reason to run this over, say, Silvos, Rogue Elemental.

[kirdape3]

In Lorwyn limited, you windmill slam that first pick even if you aren't green. It's that good - now your guys don't die to combat or red removal? AND it gets enormous when creatures run into each other? Sign me up!

I could see it in Standard out of some green aggro deck's sideboard. Like nice d00ds you got, I can haz a 6/6?

GGG3 is too expensive in Legacy unless you're cheating it into play, and you have better things to cheat into play here.

[scrumdogg]

Cheating it into play seems like a fantastic idea, especially if it allows your cheating cheater mana cards to then become ridiculous. Quirion Ranger & Rofellos, any pile of Birds/Elves...any Elf deck (now Pyroclasm proof, unless they are running both Pyroclasm & STP...which is who?), your Tarmogoyfs no longer care about combat dmage while your opponents do. Ideally this would be a one of in a Survival shell, but aggro Survival (and Elves...) just got a neat new toy to play with.

[frogboy]

Pretty much what Kirdape said, although I can't remember the last time a six drop out of the board was good in an aggro mirror with the exception of Rorix. I seriously doubt it will see constructed play.

Deathwing: People whining about Tarmogoyf in Constructed clearly never played Umezawa's Jitte.

[DeathwingZERO]

Pretty much what Kirdape said, although I can't remember the last time a six drop out of the board was good in an aggro mirror with the exception of Rorix. I seriously doubt it will see constructed play.

Deathwing: People whining about Tarmogoyf in Constructed clearly never played Umezawa's Jitte.

I actually quit playtesting Standard as that card hit the high notes (post SoFI era). I heard plenty about it, and am very glad these two never saw T2 play together. I just remember hearing from plenty of people that Jitte really should have been banned, it was basically "Jitte vs everything else" for a while.

I don't know how much he'll affect T2 play, because the W/G Beats deck I was playtesting with a friend was already looking pretty good. With the loss of Ravnica block, it seems R/W Boros is going to die, and U/B control seems pretty good. I may invest time into checking the decks out in T2 once Lorwyn hits.

[Nihil Credo]

FYI: Tarmogoyf and Jitte were never legal in Standard together. Also, Jitte was bad, but not as bad as people said: its main fault was turning the aggro and aggro-control mirrors into "who draws more Jittes", or alternatively "who draws a Manriki-Gusari first".

[DeathwingZERO]

FYI: Tarmogoyf and Jitte were never legal in Standard together. Also, Jitte was bad, but not as bad as people said: its main fault was turning the aggro and aggro-control mirrors into "who draws more Jittes", or alternatively "who draws a Manriki-Gusari first".

The funny thing was, I had edited my post because I originally thought (correctly) they never were in T2 together. I guess I was so disappointed by TS block other than it's bombs I forgot Goyf was Future Sight when I "corrected" my original statement.

And to be fair, wasn't Rav & Mirrodin T2 pretty much all aggro and aggro control decks? I remember hearing that the combo shell of The Louvre and Dragonstorm were pretty terrible after the hate sided in. Was there another combo deck I hadn't heard about?

[Nihil Credo]

There was a block named "Kamigawa" between Ravnica and Mirrodin. You know, the one with Jitte in it. Dragonstorm and Dralnu du Louvre were both born out of Time Spiral cards.

Short history of Jitte in Standard:

IV/2004: Onslaught rotates out as Kamigawa rotates in. Elder and Top make Tooth and Nail much stronger, raising the number of viable decks to a grand total of two.
I/2005: Jitte is printed. No-one plays it except in bad decks like WW.
II/2005: Affinity is banned. Tooth and Nail, MUC (eventually evolving into Blue Urzatron), and Red decks are Tier 1. None of these decks play Jitte, except some creature-heavy Red decks, and then usually in the SB. Lots of Tier 2 decks do, though.
III/2005: Ninth Edition brings painlands; Italian and Canadian Nationals see the birth of Vial Rats, a short-lived aggro-control which plays the Fork of Doom along with Sophie.
IV/2005: Mirrodin rotates out, and the multicolour insanity of Ravnica begins. The new Tier 1 begins to shape out as Ghazi-Glare, Boros, and Gifts Ungiven midrange/reanimator; later on, Heartbeat Combo and Enduring Ideal will be developed. As you can see, all but the first two decks are creatureless or creature-short.
I/2006: Guildpact (and PT: Honolulu) brings new decks like UR Tron, Magnivore, Gruul Aggro, and Orzhov Aggro or Aggro-Control; of these, Gruul SBs Jitte, and Orzhov decks usually maindeck it.
II/2006: Dissension doesn't really bring entirely new decks, at least for the moment.
III/2006: Coldsnap is printed. Two main new decks: Martyr/Proclamation (no Jitte) and Structure&Force, a CounterTop aggro-control deck very similar to what you'd build in Extended of Legacy today (maindeck Jitte, since most of its creatures were weenies).
IV/2006: Jitte rotates out.

[DeathwingZERO]

Wtf.....I can talk completely fine for multiple threads, but I come to this and completely fudge 3 years of Magic releases, that I was SELLING while they were out.

Basically, to cap where I was at the time of those instances, I played in the Regionals of Tooth and Nail.dec vs the world, with MBRats, with Jitte's in the maindeck. That was the first time I really started noticing how great they were, by killing creatures in response to SoFI equips. Pretty solid tech vs W/B weenie beats and U/W flying beats decks I faced. Hadn't really seen the "unbalance" of the card by this point.

After Regionals, I played a little bit, but as soon as Mirrodin rotated out, I hadn't played anything in T2. This is the point where I'm hearing for months on end the constant outcry to "Ban Jitte", citing that if Affinity could run rampant for months then get multiple pieces nuked after people were already working on tech, that this single game swinging card by comparison just wasn't fair. Never saw any of that myself, though.

Flash forward a bit, and I have heard about de Louvre, Dragonstorm, Boros, Gruul, Blue Urzatron, Gifts Reanimator, Izzet Combo, and W/G Beats (after TS came out). I also knew about a few other decks, but the names are all fuzzy, as I never bothered playing T2, like I wanted to.

At this point, that's about where I am in T2 knowledge, I know of a few newer decks, but not by name. I haven't seen anything come from Future Sight, and I don't know of many decks that Ravnica block itself was the founder of, short of Boros, Gruul, Izzet combo, etc.

So in essence, was the outcry for the banning of Jitte the same type of thing as Affinity, or more akin to Tooth and Nail? I'm not really seeing it as either, since people just started maindecking Manriki's, but did that honestly seem like a "fair" necessity?

EDIT: Oh, and how suave is it to completely derail a topic with 2 posts? Man, attention spans are awesome.

[Nihil Credo]

Much more like Tooth and Nail. Jitte was insanely powerful, but frankly, the ways to handle it were in the format. Manriki-Gusari was only needed if you wanted to abuse Jitte yourself - other decks had Needle, which was very useful in the format.

Moreover, there were several archetypes where you'd side out Jitte without a second thought. Heartbeat of Spring and Enduring Ideal probably would have feared Bonesplitter about as much, and Gifts was actually happy that its Kokushos and Keigas got killed.

The outcry you heard was probably more related to Block Constructed. In that format, Jitte was indeed borderline ban-worthy.