[Dispute] Goblin Charbelcher.

[DragoFireheart]

I got into a little dispute with someone that you have to hit a land with the belcher for it to do damage. He says you don't have to hit a land, I say you do.

Who's right?

[AnwarA101]

I got into a little dispute with someone that you have to hit a land with the belcher for it to do damage. He says you don't have to hit a land, I say you do.

Who's right?

Charbelcher will deal damage equal to your library if you don't hit a land.

[Nightmare]

I literally just had this discussion with my roommate last night.

Here is the Oracle text of Belcher:
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{3},{T}: Reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a land card. Goblin Charbelcher deals damage equal to the number of nonland cards revealed this way to target creature or player. If the revealed land card was a Mountain, Goblin Charbelcher deals double that damage instead. Put the revealed cards on the bottom of your library in any order.
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You do the ability in order. First, you tap three mana and the belcher and announce the activation. Your opponent has the opportunity to respond. If they do not, they have no other opportunity to do so until after they have taken the amount of damage. They cannot wait to see how much damage it will do before responding - it's too late.

Next, you reveal cards from the top of your library until you find a land. If you do not find a land, you can, at most, reveal every card in your library. Once you either a) find a land, or b) reveal every possible card, you do the next step.

Goblin Charbelcher deals damage equal to the number of nonland cards revealed this way to target creature or player. If the revealed land card was a Mountain, Goblin Charbelcher deals double that damage instead. Pretty simple. Note that there is no caveat to this implying it only works if you find a land. If that were so, it would say something like, "If you reveal a land this way..."

The final action is to put the cards you have revealed on the bottom of your library in any order. This is last, which means the damage has already been done, and you cannot continue to reveal indefinately for infinite damage.

[DragoFireheart]

Thanks, I'll be able to tell my whole card shop the answer as they all think you have to hit a land.

So why do Belcher decks use lands and run the risk of hitting one early one?

[AnwarA101]

Thanks, I'll be able to tell my whole card shop the answer as they all think you have to hit a land.

So why do Belcher decks use lands and run the risk of hitting one early one?

They only play at most 2 and that is to allow for more mana sources that can generate the first mana, which is often difficult without lands.

[Wallace]

Thanks, I'll be able to tell my whole card shop the answer as they all think you have to hit a land.

So why do Belcher decks use lands and run the risk of hitting one early one?

It makes it so you can use Land Grant. Thats great for to reasons. 1) It is free and adds to your storm count, 2) Gets a land into play so you can cast a ritual. You generaly play 1 Taiga and 1 Baoyu. You will fetch the Baoyu most of the time so you can cast Dark Ritual and combo out.

[Zilla]

It makes it so you can use Land Grant. Thats great for to reasons. 1) It is free and adds to your storm count, 2) Gets a land into play so you can cast a ritual. You generaly play 1 Taiga and 1 Baoyu. You will fetch the Baoyu most of the time so you can cast Dark Ritual and combo out.
As far as I'm aware, most builds these days have just dropped Dark Ritual entirely and run two Taigas instead of the Taiga/Bayou combination. Hitting a non-Mountain on Belcher activation = terrible.

[Wallace]

As far as I'm aware, most builds these days have just dropped Dark Ritual entirely and run two Taigas instead of the Taiga/Bayou combination. Hitting a non-Mountain on Belcher activation = terrible.

Really I was unaware of that. Does sound like a great Idea though. What do you run over the Dark Rit.?

[TeenieBopper]

As far as I'm aware, most builds these days have just dropped Dark Ritual entirely and run two Taigas instead of the Taiga/Bayou combination. Hitting a non-Mountain on Belcher activation = terrible.

Wait, what? Dark ritual is the only ritual in the format that unequivically gives you two more mana than what you put into it. Sounds like a pretty dumb idea to me, especially considering I rarely had any problems hitting Bayou on 'belcher activations.

[kirdape3]

They don't have to run Dark Ritual because you can simplify your mana via running all of the red temporary mana cards (Rite of Flame, Desperate Ritual, and Seething Song) and do the same thing.

[Nihil Credo]

I have encountered those problems; it's terrible, especially if you used a LED to activate Belcher. Another problem was how sometimes you'd lack the black mana for Ritual, or you'd have to choose between casting Ritual and casting Rite of Flame/Tinder Wall.

[TeenieBopper]

They don't have to run Dark Ritual because you can simplify your mana via running all of the red temporary mana cards (Rite of Flame, Desperate Ritual, and Seething Song) and do the same thing.

Why not run.... all of them?


nother problem was how sometimes you'd lack the black mana for Ritual, or you'd have to choose between casting Ritual and casting Rite of Flame/Tinder Wall.

Seeing as how DR produces more mana than either right of flame or tinder wall, I'ma go with that one.

[Volt]

I went back to running Dark Ritual in my Belcher build, as annoying as flipping a bayou off a Charbelcher activation is. I tried various straight RG builds involving combinations of Serum Powders, Street Wraiths, Goblin Welders, and red blasts in place of the Dark Rits, Tinder Walls, and Bayou. They were all quite unsatisfactory. Don't get me wrong, the Dark Rit version is unsatisfactory too, but less so than the others in my experience.

[Wallace]

I went back to running Dark Ritual in my Belcher build, as annoying as flipping a bayou off a Charbelcher activation is. I tried various straight RG builds involving combinations of Serum Powders, Street Wraiths, Goblin Welders, and red blasts in place of the Dark Rits, Tinder Walls, and Bayou. They were all quite unsatisfactory. Don't get me wrong, the Dark Rit version is unsatisfactory too, but less so than the others in my experience.

I have cut the Street Wraith's from my build. I still play Dark Ritual but I would like to find a good replacement.

[Shriekmaw]

I've tried the straight up R/G build of belcher, but found adding black for dark rituals just makes the deck more consistent in my play testing experience. I really don't like street wraiths one bit in the deck. I believe both builds are very good, but I prefer to run the 1 bayou and take that chance for more consistency.