[Brainstorming] Survival Thresh.

[DragoFireheart]

I had an idea to make a Red/Green/Black survival threshhold deck. SotF [Survival of the Fittest] has a nice synergy with threshold based creatures by letting you fill your yard without losing card advantage. The deck could be built in such a way to still compete without having thresh or SotF.

Here's a suggestion:

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Troll Ascetic

1 Ravenous Baloth
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Bone Shredder

1 Tin-street Hooligan
1 Eternal Witness
1 Anger
1 Genesis

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

2 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
4 Taiga
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Note to Mods: I feel that this deck is still in the theorycrafting stages and should not be in the New and Developmental Decks Forum yet.

[Anarky87]

I also wondered if there were any artifact creatures that I could use so that it would be another creature to boost the Goyf.

Masticore, Duplicant, Triskelion, etc. Take your pick.

[Jaynel]

Razormane Masticore has mad game against Tarmogoyfs and can be fueled by Squee.

[thefreakaccident]

I would personally say run razormane, seeing as the older brother (masticore) is just too slow for our current meta, and requires an active refollos to be used properly.

Deck looks good though!

[boris23]

jaynel is right.

Spammery. Your post-quality is really deficient. - Bardo

[DragoFireheart]

Razormane Masticore has mad game against Tarmogoyfs and can be fueled by Squee.

I think I'll go with the Razormane. He is sick looking.

[boris23]

hes not just sick looking hes amazing just make sure to discard squee to him every turn before you draw lol

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Could you SotF a Dryard Arbor? And is this good in this deck? Maybe as a 1 of!?

[Nihil Credo]

Here's a handy rule of deckbuilding: Dryad Arbor is never good.

[DeathwingZERO]

Here's a handy rule of deckbuilding: Dryad Arbor is never good.

Tell that to Ichorid, Sir.

[Volt]

Tell that to Ichorid, Sir.

Here's another handy rule of deckbuilding: Don't build Ichorid. :tongue:

[DeathwingZERO]

Here's another handy rule of deckbuilding: Don't build Ichorid. :tongue:

I'll have you know that the first game of Ichorid is ALWAYS to Ichorid. It's those next 2 games where you gotta actually play. I also love the idea of SB'ing 12-15 cards games 2 and 3 to EVERY deck.

But to be fair, why would Arbor be a bad inclusion, even if it's only a 1-2 of? It can't tap for mana the turn it CIP unless Anger is in the yard, but it's a free creature that can be sac'd to Therapy before your opponent even has a chance to respond to flashback. Personally, I say test one or two, and see if they have any merit.

EDIT: It also could make potentially mulligan hands with Survival into playable ones, giving you an out to get to a creature if you've already got enough mana sources in hand.

[DragoFireheart]

Dryad Arbor is a bad choice due mostly to the fact that any sort of creature removal spell, along with wastelands, will kill it. Add in the fact that you can't tap it for mana when played adds up to a terrible creature.

[Volt]

I'll have you know that the first game of Ichorid is ALWAYS to Ichorid.

In Vintage, yes. Not in Legacy. I assumed you were talking about the latter. I am thoroughly unimpressed with Legacy Ichorid. But, anyway, we're off-topic...

[DeathwingZERO]

Dryad Arbor is a bad choice due mostly to the fact that any sort of creature removal spell, along with wastelands, will kill it. Add in the fact that you can't tap it for mana when played adds up to a terrible creature.

1. Your argument extends to Birds as well, short of Wasteland, which leads to:

2. Wastelands are practically non-existent in most high level decks now. In fact, looking over the DTB threads, Goblins are the only ones packing it now. They don't even show up that often in the Established decks.

I'd say it should at least be tested, to see if it can help out in any way. Having it be a 1 of will not kill your manabase, and worst case scenario, it can be a blocker or Therapy flashback on the spot if needed.

[DragoFireheart]

1. Your argument extends to Birds as well, short of Wasteland, which leads to:

2. Wastelands are practically non-existent in most high level decks now. In fact, looking over the DTB threads, Goblins are the only ones packing it now. They don't even show up that often in the Established decks.

I'd say it should at least be tested, to see if it can help out in any way. Having it be a 1 of will not kill your manabase, and worst case scenario, it can be a blocker or Therapy flashback on the spot if needed.

My argument doesn't extend to birds as if the birds are killed I won't lose the land drop from that turn. If I drop the Dryad 1st turn it's liable to be killed and if I drop it second turn that is one more turn in which I would have to wait on playing SotF. With the number of creatures this deck has I don't see the need to add more.

[Volt]

2. Wastelands are practically non-existent in most high level decks now. In fact, looking over the DTB threads, Goblins are the only ones packing it now. They don't even show up that often in the Established decks.

From what I've observed, Wasteland is in vogue again. Landstill (often) runs Wastelands. UG Thresh runs Wastelands, and that deck seems to be catching on.

[DragoFireheart]

I almost wonder if I am not setting my self up for failure going the heavy-threshold route. Isn't one of the strengths of SotF decks is the fact that even if they lose their Graveyard based cards that they still function fine?

[from Cairo]

Yea Dryad Arbor is really bad in survival, this was discussed at length in the archetype thread.

It takes a land drop. Eats it to all removal: Fanatic, Gempalm, Wasteland, Lightning Bolt, etc. And leaves you're manabase open to further disruption. ie: Turn 1 Arbor <killed>, Turn 2 dual or fetched, Wasted/Stifled... and you're out two land drops. For what advantage? Being able to pitch it to survival or chump block, its just not worth it. Fetch Squee it can do all those things, without eating land drops.

[Anusien]

I'm pretty sure Troll Ascetic is quite bad now, since it doesn't beat any good creature. I'd rather run an Indrik Stomphowler, more bone shredders, and more good men.

Flametongue Kavu is actually quite bad right now. It's worse than Fire Imp against Goblins, and pretty mediocre/worse than Bone Shredder versus Threshold. Consequently, I would look at dropping green altogether. It gets you Anger which is nice but not necessary, and Tin-Street is easily replaceable. You can go white for Loxodon Hierarchs and other men, or just go BG for a better disruption package.

[AngryTroll]

I'm pretty sure Troll Ascetic is quite bad now, since it doesn't beat any good creature.

...Consequently, I would look at dropping green altogether...

I play against a meta of over half Thresh and Landstill, and I've added Trolls back to test them again. They're solid backups to Goyf, because you can only run 4 Goyf. With Survival, you drop all 4 Goyfs in a row and just win, but without it, a Troll holds off Goyf until you find one, while being very solid against a board of just Mongeese or an empty board.

Dropping FtK altogether is very doable, but I'm hesitant to drop red entirely. I run 2 Bone Shredder and could easily see running 3, but Bone Shredder does not kill Dark Confidant, Withered Wretch, Disciple of the Vault, (or anything in affinity), Negator, or a couple of other relevent black and artifact creatures.

Dropping Red also loses Burning Wish, a card whose utility is not as hot as it used to be, but is still game breaking against a lot of decks.

[DeathwingZERO]

I'm curious about the Dredge creatures. I'm thinking Stinkweed Imp and Golgari Grave Troll especially.

Troll does cost 5 mana, but once it's out in mid/late game it'll probably be the biggest creature on the board. With built in regeneration, and only 1 core green, I think it's worth a test.

Stinkweed would do the job of keeping aggressive players on tilt, making bad players not sure which creatures to attack with, or having Thresh players waste a removal spell on them or stall their Goyf with a measly 1/2. He is 3 mana, but that's not looking hard for this deck, packing enough lands and accelerators.

They could both be dredged early on, as you have very few spells that need to resolve, short of Survival. Plus the off chance of dredging into the lone Squee, Genesis or Anger would make up for losing a few creatures to Survival with. In fact, with the Therapies maindecked, the only time I could see a dredge being problematic is if Survival isn't on the board anymore, or the deck is too thin. At either of those points you should either 1) have the game or 2) lose anyways.

[Nihil Credo]

@Grave-Troll: I haven't seen your specific deck list, but shouldn't almost all your mana sources produce Green mana? Silvos, Rogue Elemental should be equally big and trample.

@Stinkweed Imp: Yep, this one looks good. I had been thinking about Thornweald Archer, myself, but Imp seems just straight better.

[DeathwingZERO]

@Grave-Troll: I haven't seen your specific deck list, but shouldn't almost all your mana sources produce Green mana? Silvos, Rogue Elemental should be equally big and trample.

@Stinkweed Imp: Yep, this one looks good. I had been thinking about Thornweald Archer, myself, but Imp seems just straight better.

I had completely glazed over the fact the majority of this deck creates green, cite that up to writing this as I was about to pass out from exhaustion.

As for the pound vs pound bit, I think at the point you've hit a few Survival activations and dredged once (or twice, if you really want some things in the yard), I'd say that the Troll would outpower Silvos, though he doesn't gain trample, which would be nice. I've always been tempted to toss a Brawn into Survival builds, though. Just don't really think it's worth it.

On the other side of the same coin however, I think he'd be much better used as a blocker, as he'd be a constant threat for some time for any of the opponents creatures trying to come through. Being somewhere in the neighborhood of 6/6 (or bigger) by the time he drops would make him pretty much the biggest land based guy short of Breakfast's Ghoul plan.

As for Stinkweed, I think he really fits this version. He'd make great for a blocker because of the flying and stoning ability, and dredge's synergy with the deck in both thresh and recoup strategies through Genesis would fit rather well. I'm interested in hearing what others think.

EDIT: In other interests though, I've noticed the deck would have a rather large liability on the graveyard, as is the case with most Survival builds. What do people think of maindecking options to keep your graveyard from getting nullified in those first games vs random decks still packing Leylines or Crypts in maindecks? Also, what kind of sideboard options in general do people think work well with this build?

[sammiel]

I personally feel survival isn't complete without a set of grips in the board, great answer to both needle and crypt.