One Hell of a Situation...

[lavafrogg]

Okay...pay attention now.
I am an IGGy Pop player in legacy so I know how storm works in this game called magical the gathering.
I was playing in a type two tournament and was playing the U/R storm deck. I was 3-1 for the day and playing into the top eight (i didnt hear the tourny start so I took a loss in the first round)
I won game one easily (she was playing GW aggro so it was a bye).
Game two was a different story. I drew every land in the deck and my lotus blooms the problem was that she was not killing me.
She had a troll ascetic with a pariah on it and enough mana to regenerate it three times. I played rite of flame, rite of flame, claws of gix, claws of gix, pyromancers swath, grapeshot, remand, grapeshot killing her through the troll(ironicly enough she didnt regenerate the troll at all).
She asked what was going on, not understanding the combo, and I explained it to her. Due to the fact that we were the last ones playing everyoine else, including the judge, gathered around. As a group we explained to her what happened. She signed the match sheet and we turned it in.
I went outside and ten minutes later went back in to hear the top eight parings. After the parings were up the woman and her husband went to the judge and told him that I cheated and got help from the players that helped explain the combo to her. She was saying that I did not know how to play my deck and she should have won the match.
After a minor confrontation with the husband where I told him to shut the hell up and then called his wife a liar the judge decided that we were to replay the whole match. I though this was completly unfair in that I had won the first game fair and square and had already offered to replay the second game.
What should have happened in this event.
P.S. What happened is that I left the tournament because I only play type two for fun and this was not fun in the slightest and she calle dthe judge when i asked for a mulligan so he could shuffle my deck...what a bitch

[Nihil Credo]

Wasn't there a judge when the players gathered around you? What did he say?

[Cabal-kun]

She asked what was going on, not understanding the combo, and I explained it to her. Due to the fact that we were the last ones playing everyoine else, including the judge, gathered around. As a group we explained to her what happened. She signed the match sheet and we turned it in.

After a minor confrontation with the husband where I told him to shut the hell up and then called his wife a liar the judge decided that we were to replay the whole match. I though this was completly unfair in that I had won the first game fair and square and had already offered to replay the second game.

[Versus]

Jeez, thankfully the people I play T2 with (for fun) are totally chill.

Anyway, I would probably said screw it and split too. Either that or just replayed the match. You'd probably take her again so what's the difference.

[Nihil Credo]

If the judge that said the match should be replayed was the same one that stood there and did nothing as you got "outside help", either something's very wrong with the judge or something's very wrong with your account of the facts.

[Silverdragon]

In any way there is no chance whatsoever that you'd have to replay the match. Either you are right and didn't cheat so everything is fine or you did cheat and you get DQ'ed.
In this situation the only thing a judge has to do is find out who is right. If he can't tell exactly he has to make a call for what he thinks is most likely. He doesn't need proof that you cheated to DQ you but he also doesn't need proof that you didn't to keep you in the tournament.
In this case you had spectators and a judge who can confirm that you did in fact win the match without cheating as you did all the correct actions to win the deciding game.
Had I been a judge there I'd give your opponent a warning for unsporting conduct minor (she accused you of cheating) and continue with the tournament.

[Maveric78f]

I don't see the point. When you play, you don't have to explain what are the synergies between the cards you play, you just have to play them and keep accurate the life-points count. You are not supposed to give you opponent a lesson about the ruling or about how the storm triggers and the fact that the ascetic troll will need a lot of regeneration shields in order not to be destroyed.

As Nihil insinuated, something very abnormal has occurred, either in the judge's head or in yours.

[lavafrogg]

Well,
the judge delayed the tourney for an hour because he wanted to play and he was already playing in a spoils tourney. The rounds were delayed because he was not paying attention to the result slips and he was right there when this happened.
Other players are upset about this what should we do?

[Ewokslayer]

Ok, first you can't replay magic games in a tournament.
There is a signed match slip so both of you agreed that you won 2-0.
The only arguement is whether you had outside help from the spectators and thus cheated.
Since you already had comboed out and only had "outside help" in explaining to her how she died it is probably only the spectators that would get warnings for interering in a match.

When you play, you don't have to explain what are the synergies between the cards you play, you just have to play them and keep accurate the life-points count.
You do have to explain how your cards interact when they are actually doing the interaction. You don't have to explain anything before hand however.

Other players are upset about this what should we do?
Get a better judge/TO.

[Silverdragon]

If your judge is DCI certified you can contact the DCI and they will take further steps. However if this was "just" a FNM or something similar I'd talk to your TO and the judge (if the judge was also the TO then upgrade this to the store owner or whoever told this judge to run the tournament) in question and try to solve this issue.

[Tacosnape]

If your judge is DCI certified you can contact the DCI and they will take further steps. However if this was "just" a FNM or something similar I'd talk to your TO and the judge (if the judge was also the TO then upgrade this to the store owner or whoever told this judge to run the tournament) in question and try to solve this issue.

You're wrong. The reality is that the DCI won't take steps at all to correct any sort of problem in a small setting in a format they're largely unconcerned with (anything not Standard or Limited.)

We had a problem of tournaments being a sham at our local area where literally one person would bribe out all the other players to where he literally couldn't lose, including the store owners and tournament directors who would occasionally play under alternate names. This is why the name "Daniel M. Oravet" appears in the worldwide top 10 of Eternal Rankings.

A few emails and phone calls got me assured that the case was "Under investigation," which resulted in absolutely nothing being done ever. And now said store is en route to becoming a premier store. Neat how the DCI does business, isn't it?

Local judges and tournament directors like this are killing the game, because it makes people like us not want to spend our time and money to play in Legacy tournaments, which is killing the format. Still, there really isn't a whole lot of shit you can do about it. Your only options are to either A. Not play, or B. Lead some kind of revolt amongst the other people who are fed up and overthrow whoever's currently in charge of the tournaments. B rarely works, because most people don't really give a shit in the long run, so I usually recommend A.

[Nightmare]

You're wrong. The reality is that the DCI won't take steps at all to correct any sort of problem in a small setting in a format they're largely unconcerned with (anything not Standard or Limited.)

Okay...pay attention now...
I was playing in a type two tournament...

[Tacosnape]

Alright, valid point. They still probably won't do anything in a small environment, though.

[Anusien]

Alright, valid point. They still probably won't do anything in a small environment, though.
As an aside, they do, since they've cracked down at some local shops I know if. If it's an issue to you, e-mail Andy Heckt (andy.heckt@wizards.com) and let him know what's going on. If you have concerns, e-mail him again. Everytime I've talked to him, he's been reasonable and very concerned with keeping OP running smoothly.

As to the original situation:
#1) Spectators shouldn't interfere in a match. If they do, you should politely ask them to stop. It sounds like they were guilty of Cheating - Outside Assistance
#2) Without a doubt, the judge telling you to replay the match is wrong.
#3) You were most certainly guilty of Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

After a minor confrontation with the husband where I told him to shut the hell up and then called his wife a liar

Here's what should have happened. When she doesn't understand what's going on, you explain it to her. When/if she still doesn't understand, you say, "If you have any questions, feel free to call a judge." She does, calls the judge, the judge explains it to her, and the match resolves. Any spectators who tried to interfere, you should ask them, "Let's just let a judge handle the situation." As a judge, I'd give some sort of polite but firm Caution to the spectators to stop interfering, and then after that they risk Cheating - Outside Assistance. If they have any issues or anything to add, they should talk to the judge on the side. Incidentally, you can be DQed from tournaments you're spectating, and you can be investigated as per any other DQ in the same way.

This is not an excuse to go to the judge and say, "OMG my friends online said you ruled that wrong!!!" While encouraging judge growth is always a good idea, I would handle it one of two ways. I would put a word into OP about the way things are being run, and encourage the judge there to check out some good resources like #mtgjudge and the Rules Adviser test (and the Penalty Guidelines). Chances are you shouldn't say anything to the judge yourself, but feel free to put a word in the TO's ear about the unorthodox way things are being handled.

[Brushwagg]

B. Lead some kind of revolt amongst the other people who are fed up and overthrow whoever's currently in charge of the tournaments.

Actually Syracuse did that, and we got a better store to hold weekly events. Now not everyone is in the same boat, but it can be done.

[Cait_Sith]

Anusien, for the most part, hit the nail on the head.

The one thing I would like to note is that an spectator can "interfere" in very limited circumstances, such as calling a judge, or informing the judge of a problem.

EX:

My friend was playing at first tournament and his opponent stupidly said "Hey, if he targets my Skulking Knight with his Detainment Spell (at the time attached to a Serendib Sorcerer) then he will kill it."

Rules wise this works well, since the Knight's triggered ability will force it to be sacrificed and the Detainment Spell's activated ability will be countered on resolution and never leave the Sorcerer.

My friend does this and his opponent tells him the Detainment Spell dies (it does NOT). My friend proceeds to put the Detainment Spell in his graveyard. I stop him and tell him to the judge (I should have called the judge here). My friend does so and they explain the situation to the judge.

The problem here was that my friend puts the Detainment Spell back into play UNATTACHED to anything, so the judge thinks he had just cast it from his hand. The judge rules that my friend's opponent is correct (note that his opponent did not correct this accidental misrepresentation of the game state). I stop the judge and tell him that the Detainment Spell was already in play and attached to the Serendib Sorcerer and my friend was using Detainment Spell's activated ability. My friend and his opponent agree that this was the version of events and the judge changes his previous ruling to favor my friend.

Long story short? If you are a spectator, judges DO appreciate you helping them honestly IF THEY NEED IT. (I cannot find the article on this anymore, but it used to be there.) Otherwise, a spectator should spectate, nothing else.

[bigbear102]

I think it was Alix Hatfield playing Day 2 of GP Philly against Dredge-a-tog. There were at least 10-12 people crowded around the match as it was a long one. There were no judges around though. Strangely enough, no one noticed when the tog player dredged during his draw phase, and then drew a card. I was the only one out of both players and 10 spectators to notice, so I went over and told a judge what happened. I was actually reasonably worried about being wrong and looking like a jackass, but it turns out that I was right.

This was actually in return for Alix pointing out that one of my opponents drew an extra card in day 1.

aside to Cuse players: At Altered States once, I was playing something blue, and Twincasted Dirty's Accumulated Knowledge (he was playing Solidarity). I drew 2 cards, because there was one other copy in the yard. Dirty told me I draw 3 because his copy is also counted (even though it's still on the stack). I told him no, and he called the 'judge' (Nate). We told him what was going on, and he ruled that I drew 3 cards. I told him no, but he said to anyway. It was funny, cuz Dirty was cheating because he had counted my deck and knew that the extra card would make his Brain Freeze lethal, too bad he sucks and I drew into answers.

[Mulletus]

I think it was Alix Hatfield playing Day 2 of GP Philly against Dredge-a-tog. There were at least 10-12 people crowded around the match as it was a long one. There were no judges around though. Strangely enough, no one noticed when the tog player dredged during his draw phase, and then drew a card. I was the only one out of both players and 10 spectators to notice, so I went over and told a judge what happened. I was actually reasonably worried about being wrong and looking like a jackass, but it turns out that I was right.

That was me, and the first judge tried to let him just put the drawn card back. I appealed to the red striped judge and won the appeal.

[Anusien]

aside to Cuse players: At Altered States once, I was playing something blue, and Twincasted Dirty's Accumulated Knowledge (he was playing Solidarity). I drew 2 cards, because there was one other copy in the yard. Dirty told me I draw 3 because his copy is also counted (even though it's still on the stack). I told him no, and he called the 'judge' (Nate). We told him what was going on, and he ruled that I drew 3 cards. I told him no, but he said to anyway. It was funny, cuz Dirty was cheating because he had counted my deck and knew that the extra card would make his Brain Freeze lethal, too bad he sucks and I drew into answers.
If the judge gives an incorrect ruling, or a ruling you disagree with, you appeal to the HJ. If the HJ says something you don't like, tough. You don't disagree like that. The HJ's word is law at a tournament. I understand the intention behind the act, but doing that sort of thing erodes the way tournaments work, since people don't get used to acting properly at "real" tournaments.

[Tacosnape]

If the judge gives an incorrect ruling, or a ruling you disagree with, you appeal to the HJ. If the HJ says something you don't like, tough. You don't disagree like that. The HJ's word is law at a tournament. I understand the intention behind the act, but doing that sort of thing erodes the way tournaments work, since people don't get used to acting properly at "real" tournaments.

Incompetent Judges / Head Judges erode the way tournaments work, not the people who dispute their word. Whenever a Head Judge makes an incorrect ruling, it erodes people's trust in the Head Judges' interpretation of the rules versus their own. This in turn causes people to frequently and belligerently question judge's rulings, even in in the majority of cases where the judges are actually correct.

Far too many judges simply take the stance of "We're human, we make mistakes," rather than doing everything they can to prepare themselves to be excellent at what they do.

For what it's worth, I don't play in low-level tournaments with judges unless I know and trust the judge. All you're doing is throwing your money away.

[cdr]

Anusien, for the most part, hit the nail on the head.

The one thing I would like to note is that an spectator can "interfere" in very limited circumstances, such as calling a judge, or informing the judge of a problem.

Not even then. What you should do is go get a judge, but you can not interfere with the match in any way - including telling them to wait while you get a judge.

Spectators should never interfere with matches, ever, period. Pretty simple.

[Cait_Sith]

This is wrong. I used to have it bookmarked, but, if a spectator sees a situation where a judge needs to be called, they are supposed to CALL THE JUDGE. Please DO NOT read extra words into my sentences just to make yourself look better.

[cdr]

Huh?


What you should do is go get a judge...



The one thing I would like to note is that an spectator can "interfere" in very limited circumstances, such as calling a judge, or informing the judge of a problem.
...
I stop him and tell him to the judge (I should have called the judge here). My friend does so and they explain the situation to the judge.


Get a judge? Do. Interfere with the match in any way? Don't.

[Cait_Sith]

Oh goody. So you can read the words, but you cannot understand the concepts?

Wow. Oh look, before you even posted I had ALREADY CONCEDED MY ERROR in that instance. Why do you think there is any point is saying I am wrong and then SAY WHAT I SAID?

The word interfere is in quotations because we were previously discussing interference. Also, calling a judge is still technically interfering by the strictest definition of the word. I put the word interfere in quotes to make apparent both. Forgive me for assuming people are moderately inteeligent

[cdr]

You were doing nothing but confusing the issue. If you're going to bring a point up, be clear about it. It was not (and still isn't) at all clear what you were trying to say.

Calling a judge (when done in a way that doesn't interfere in the match) is not by itself interfering in the match. Not technically, not in any way shape or form.

[DeathwingZERO]

You were doing nothing but confusing the issue. If you're going to bring a point up, be clear about it. It was not (and still isn't) at all clear what you were trying to say.

Calling a judge (when done in a way that doesn't interfere in the match) is not by itself interfering in the match. Not technically, not in any way shape or form.

Actually, your wrong. Calling a judge in the way Cait was explaining it WILL interfere with the match, because if it's enough to get them in, they WILL stop it to get both sides of the situation that you explain to them. No, you aren't saying "hey stop, I'm gonna go get this guy", but the second he comes to the table, your action of getting him caused the interference. That's what he meant by "interfering". Understand now?

And as far as Anusien is concerned, your really, really wrong. Judges make mistakes on countless occasions, and I've known SEVERAL judges in the area in FNM or similar environments that should have their judging ability revoked, because they either cheat/fix games themselves, or have so many faulty rulings they should get retested. Even head judges have been found wrong on occasions, and I can think of multiple instances in Vintage or even Legacy where a medium/large sized game required judges to be called out and had to actually look up higher judges rulings on websites, or in some instances actually call ones that would be available. In no way shape or form should the head judge EVER be considered "law" if you know for a fact your right, and can prove it with solid evidence. I've seen instances myself where a Level 3 judge was corrected on the spot by a Level 1, who had proof of it.

As far as this tournament is concerned, it sounds like the altercation between the husband and you was his fault. Telling him to shut the hell up was uncalled for, but it sounded provoked, and was not between you and her, so that shouldn't be cited for USL Conduct. As for her calling you a cheat, you calling her a liar was not unsportsmanlike, it was truth. If multiple people that you don't know on the sidelines can say that she was wrong, and the slip SHE SIGNED said you won, there's no ruling about it. The ruling was wrong, flat out. To be honest, if I were the judge I would have DQ'd her. Falsely accusing someone of cheating when there were bystanders to prove otherwise is just dumb, and very much a "no tolerance" situation, at least that's the way a number of judges have told me it works. If you were a cheat, she should have said something before the slip was signed, while the judge was there. She probably waited until the last second because she saw that it kicked her out of T8 potential, I've seen it happen a lot. I say talk to the judge next time you are in there, and let him know you will be in contact with DCI/WoTC reps if he's unable to host a tournament to satisfactory conditions. That whole scenario sounds like complete nonsense, and I've heard of very similar situations happening a lot.

It reminded me far too much of a similar situation I had, where my opponent purposefully "forgot" what the storm count was at, called a judge on me when I declared my Tendrils lethal, and required me to go back over CARD FOR CARD what I played. When I told the judge (who knows me very well as a Storm player) every single play made that turn, in precise order (including the specific color mana activations of LED and Lotus Petals, and when spells were flashed back), then also had the opponent concede the fact that he said "Ok" upon EVERY spell I played to pass priority, he told the guy he was giving him a warning for unsportsmanlike conduct for attempting to cause a loss "because I didn't write down everything that was happening, just a check mark for each successful spell".

Then the guy went on for 5 minutes after his match loss was declared saying that a head judge in a "real" tournament would have faulted me, to which the judge (able to host Rlvl 3 tournies) said "Your lucky I'm in a good mood, I can easily kick you out for that comment right now". We need more judges like that, apparently.

[Peter_Rotten]

This is actually pretty simple.

The judge is right. Even when he is wrong, he is right.

[DeathwingZERO]

That's not true, and even Wizards would back that. If a judge is to be found in the wrong, with substantial proof, they would want the judge to admit they were wrong. They know people aren't perfect, and judges have been proven wrong before. If they stand by judges who are obviously wrong on multiple occasions, then they lose any reason to have them be judges in the first place, and any respect from players that actually look to them for correct rulings.

As far as this situation is concerned, the judge has the last word, as it's not a ruling matter, but a personal practice one. But even then, I'd like the judge to inform me of what conclusion he came to in order to come to said ruling, so I would know for future reference. Just being called a cheat because people outside of the match are trying to explain to her how storm works isn't enough to call a rematch, especially when he was observing it towards the end.

It's just a bad situation in general when judges can't even agree with themselves, and have to constantly change rulings after the fact, when it does no good. They really should work on a better way to document everything (rules errata, card interactions, interference with matches, etc), as it's pretty obvious just citing the comp rulebook isn't good enough in some cases.

[Bane of the Living]

Judges are most definitely not always right. Some are out dated and dont know rules on cards recently released since they dont keep up with rule updates and card faqs. Some judges just barely passed the test. We used to have a TO a few years back who actually thought the FNM cards could be used in sanctioned standard tournaments.

We have people playing Priest of Titania in onslaught elves and Powder Keg against Affinity. He insisted on being right although several people brought it to his attention and he was eventually put in his place.

Certainly never fear speaking up to a judge.

[Anusien]

This is actually pretty simple.

The judge is right. Even when he is wrong, he is right.
What P_R means is that the HJ's word is LAW for a tournament. If a HJ wanted, they could arbitrarily change the way certain cards work for the tournament. Of course, they quickly be speaking with Andy Heckt, but the potential is there.
If a judge makes a mistake or you disagree with a ruling, appeal to the HJ. If the HJ rules a certain way, that ruling stands. It doesn't matter if it is wrong, once the HJ has made a ruling, the ruling is final. Now, you're welcome to try and present your evidence to the HJ before the ruling is made, or talk to them after the round, but the ruling is final. Now, if a HJ makes a ruling you later find out to be false, it's worth noting the exact reason why and knowing it in case the situation comes up, or even getting in contact with the TO/Judge to let them know (politely).

I'm not saying that judges are infallible, because clearly they aren't

Also, don't make the mistake of saying that a L3 is a better or higher judge than an L1. They both have different responsibilities and issue of scope, and experience. However, on the floor an L3 is equivalent to an L1; they're both Judges.

DeathWingZERO: If you have issues with specific judges or events, report them to Andy Heckt. He takes that kind of thing very seriously.

[DeathwingZERO]

I've done my fair share of reporting, the only shop in the area I have any problems with will never get their judging ability revoked, as their practically the only thing left in Portland. People have tried over and over, and it's been revoked once, but not again. I also haven't been there in years, since the TO decided to side with 2 people who formerly came to my store to play, and associated me with a certain group of less than stellar PT wannabe players, and caused me to nearly get a match loss, issuing me a warning instead.

As far as the tournaments are concerned though, I remember a specific event at a high calibur Vintage event, when Dragon was first showing up. Since the HJ was obviously wrong, and there was plenty at stake in the matches (I believe it was an early SGC event, with Power or equivalent as prizes, but I could be wrong), enough players had to get together to basically coerce him to call in to a higher judge that had ruled how it worked correctly (for a lack of better way of putting it). Now I'm not saying that you should go out and be a dick about it, but if you know the judge is wrong, give them the proof, and make sure they don't ruin a very potentially high stakes tournament JUST because they are the final word. There's nothing wrong with asking them to appeal to the higher powers when you know they have already ruled correctly in the same situation. If anything, your helping the judge, and they should believe it as such. Judges at all levels should be on the same page as far as rulings go.

[Cait_Sith]

The problem is some rulings are incredibly complex. One such problem that came up was: Can my opponent look at my sideboard if he is controlling me turn? If he casts a Wish via Mindslaver?

The answer:


* The rules of magic are permissive, not restrictive, by nature: a
player may only take an action allowed by the rules (rather than "may
take any action not forbidden by the rules").
* The Comp Rules (ie: the rules of the GAME) allow a player to take
certain _game actions_, such as drawing a card or playing an activated
ability.
* The UTR and MFR (ie: rules of the tournament) allow a player to take
certain _tournament actions_, such as conceding or drawing a game, or
dropping from the tournament.
* The MFR were recently changed to allow a player to look at his or
her sideboard at any time (with the caveat that it must be kept very
clear of their hand/library). This is a tournament action, not a game
action. The game rules make no provisions for the concept of a
sideboard, so this action is meaningless within the context of the
game rules.
* The CR rules for Mindslaver allow a player to choose what *game*
actions his opponent can take.

Result: Because Mindslaver only allows a player to control the game
actions of his or her opponent, it doesn't allow a player to concede
or drop for his opponent. Analogously, it doesn't allow him or her to
look at an opponent's sideboard, and the information the opponent has
about the contents of his or her sideboard is not in-game information
available to the Mindslaver's controller.

That is a large ruling that was carefully thought out, a luxury judges don't have during a tournament, so the odds of the screwing up are much higher.

(This ruling was made by Gavin Duggan.)

[kirdape3]

At a PTQ or higher, if you appeal a judge's ruling to the Head Judge and it doesn't come out in your favor, you accept it regardless if it's the right ruling or not. Failure to do this is grounds for Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalties (it's in the current Penalty Guidelines that if you don't listen to a judge it's grounds for Unsportsmanlike - Major, rather than Failure to Follow Instructions), which start at game losses. Getting a game loss or worse because you try to get the judge to give the 'right' ruling seems absolutely worse than the ruling itself, so is the risk worth it to you?

[DeathwingZERO]

At a PTQ or higher, if you appeal a judge's ruling to the Head Judge and it doesn't come out in your favor, you accept it regardless if it's the right ruling or not. Failure to do this is grounds for Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalties (it's in the current Penalty Guidelines that if you don't listen to a judge it's grounds for Unsportsmanlike - Major, rather than Failure to Follow Instructions), which start at game losses. Getting a game loss or worse because you try to get the judge to give the 'right' ruling seems absolutely worse than the ruling itself, so is the risk worth it to you?

While I understand it, again this shows nothing more than utter contempt by high judges at being called out on a false ruling. While I would say I wouldn't like to get game losses for saying a judge is wrong, I'd also hate to scrub out a tournament and lose points on a judge call that was wrong, and never get credit back for it when I later appeal that same ruling to a higher judge after the fact.

In any case, it merely means that if the rules can call a person on Unsportsmanlike Conduct for calling a HJ on a faulty ruling, this only furthers my comments that they need to seriously work on getting every judge on the same page asap. When something as serious as PT points are at stake, you'd think they'd all be on the ball.

[Anusien]

While I understand it, again this shows nothing more than utter contempt by high judges at being called out on a false ruling. While I would say I wouldn't like to get game losses for saying a judge is wrong, I'd also hate to scrub out a tournament and lose points on a judge call that was wrong, and never get credit back for it when I later appeal that same ruling to a higher judge after the fact.
I've seen players who were patently wrong fight VEHEMENTLY with a Head Judge trying to appeal a ruling. That seriously impedes the flow of a tournament.

Have issues with the system? Become a judge yourself!

[DeathwingZERO]

I've seen players who were patently wrong fight VEHEMENTLY with a Head Judge trying to appeal a ruling. That seriously impedes the flow of a tournament.

Have issues with the system? Become a judge yourself!

At the point you become that engrossed in winning the argument you may as well just give up, because your gonna lose more than a match loss.

As far as the system goes, I've considered it on several occasions, but I've decided I'd never join it. Far too much work to climb the ladders in there, I'd much rather just keep trying to get into R&D and the likes without getting in through the judge system.

From what I've been told by some of the lvl 1's and 2's in the area, it can be entertaining, but you better be damn good at remembering rulings on the spot, and have ways of getting to and from tournaments without compensation (money wise), as lower end judges get boosters/singles for payment.

Plus, I couldn't pull off spending entire weekends doing that for as long as is needed to go from levels 1 to 4. I was told just to attain Level 1 here you need to be a volunteer judge at at least 2 events plus pass the test, and it gets worse the higher you go. I don't think I'm dedicated enough to the game itself to pull 30+ hours a weekend on multiple occasions a year.

[Tacosnape]

Andy Heckt wouldn't take anything that happens in an insignificant shop seriously if they killed his family. Or at least not in a semi-rural area like our shop.

Half the problem is the players, also. There are far too many instances of players deliberately spending more time and effort finding ways to manipulate the game to where they can call a judge and win by forfeit rather than actually winning, and this practice is largely rewarded.