[OLD] UGr Threshold [Archive] - Page 2

noobslayer

06-01-2007, 08:50 PM

So after seeing UGr top 8 at Columbus, I think it's only fair we analyze and consider some of Paul Nicolo's card choices. Here is the list:

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Forest
1 Island

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Quirion Dryad

4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions

4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Daze

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fire // Ice

1 Pithing Needle

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Snare
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
4 Pyroclasm

Points of obvious observation:

The first is his mana base. Paul opted for a grand total of nine fetch lands, which is considerably higher from the generally accepted seven most of us are used to. The fact that he kept a total of seventeen lands means his real land count is substantially lower. He's also only running two basic lands, which I feel is acceptable with the lack of counterspell, and the need to hit double blue mana to cast it.

The second is where we would run Fledgling Dragon, he eschews it for Quirion Dryad. After reading his report over on the mana drain, it is apparent that Quirion Dryad was MVP for him the entire run of the tournament. This suggests one of two things. A) He's lucky, and drew them when he needed to, and had enough gas regularly to power them out into monstrous beats. B) His build fully optimizes Quirion Dryad into an efficient and viable creature for the deck. I'd opt for the latter, as no one can run a gambit of a trial, day 1 qualifiers, and an entire day two just on luck alone. Because of this I will be testing, and I hope others will as well, Quirion Dryad. I enjoy how it makes all three of our threats reliant on different things. Mongoose entirely on our yard, 'Goyf (I'm going to assume Werebear is no longer in the list) on the total yards, and Dryad on card quality and advantage.

Next we move on to his cantrip base, which is relatively low (also considering the fact that he is running fire/ice, but more often than not, the fire side is used, so the cantriping effect is negligible). The cantrip base he used is noticeably lacking in the card quality department. Brainstorm is really the only relevant quality spell, with visions offering limited choices, and mental note offering none at all. There is also a grand total of twelve cantrips, which I've always felt, is two too few.

On too his counter magic. Counterspell is entirely absent, as is Spell Snare (which I was running). He instead opted for Stifle, which in his report was also a godsend to his performance. I'd generally run no more than three in the main, but having four seemed to suit his purposes time and time again.

I feel there isn't much to about his removal and utility slots. Only that Fire/Ice is clearly a better call than magma jet (Even if at one point I was a strong proponent for it's inclusion).

That's all I have for now.

Citrus-God

06-02-2007, 12:58 AM

To be honest, I see that build as trashy. No, not because of Dryad, but because of Fire // Ice.... god I'm a weirdo. Anyways, the list looks fairly decent, but the list still looks like it needs a ton of work. I mean tons.

No Ancient Grude in the SB. This should already be a staple in there, as it is proved that 2-for-1 utility cards are awesome.... no, I still think Fire // Ice is trash, it kills narrow and weak guys over Chalices and SoFI.

Mental Note + Stifle buys you so much time, you'd be bashed with Dryads and friends for a turn or two giving you a limited amount of turns to find your outs. I bet Bardo would've top 8ed the event if he attended.

Hanni

06-02-2007, 07:06 PM

I think Fire//Ice is pretty bad. Even against the metagame of Fish, I'd still run Magma Jet. Being able to split 2 damage is mostly irrelevant... I mean, I understand Mother of Runes and Dark Confidant have a toughness of 1, but that's it. Magma Jet keeps Threshold's card quality constantly good, which is far more important than splitting the damage 1/1.

I do agree that Dryad is pretty strong and I've been an advocate of it in Red Thresh for a while now. However, I've been an advocate of Wee Dragonauts too, which seems to hurt credibility.

Post FS, no Flash

4 Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dragonauts

That's the creature base I prefer.

I've always been an advocate of MD Stifle over Needle as well. However, I think Counterspell is necessary in Red Thresh in order to have a better Mirror vs White Thresh matchup. At least as a 2-of.

I've always liked Mental Note in Red Thresh too, since Red Thresh plays a more aggressive role than White Thresh. However, the card quality of it is pretty bad, which is why I've been running Sleight of Hand lately instead.

As far as Spell Snare goes... it was good in the Flash metagame, but now that Flash is gone I would not consider it for the deck at all. This deck doesn't need a counter that only deals with 2cc spells and Counterspell is a million times better against the format as a whole.

jwludyka

06-03-2007, 01:26 AM

Citrus-God

06-03-2007, 02:34 AM

how unbelievable.

first of all, everything the last two posters have said is in fact, wrong.

fire ice is a great card in this deck and provides tons of flexibility. ugr is much more aggressive than ugw and therefore both ends of the card do much in racing and clearing paths vs. goblins and mother of runes.

What is the point of racing what wasnt even there when a SCG, Ringleader, and Warcheif have already resolved?

Doesnt matter. Needles already do something Fire // Ice cant do. Answer Jitte, Mother of Runes, AEther Vial, etc, etc.

And this deck is not more aggressive than UGw Threshold, and isnt even more different. I'm sure you've heard of Bardo.

Also, doesnt Pyroclasm accomplish the same thing as Burn against Goblins?

how can magma freaking jet even be compared? for some reason most legacy players are obsessed with scrying over actual card power.

So drawing a blind card is better than drawing a card that does something? Card Quality is probably the most important thing this deck has.

counterspell? equally awful in ugr.

Get over that awful mentality that colors determine how aggressive a deck is, it's the way to deck is built and designed, so in that case, it's Mental Note that makes it aggressive.

Even Bardo wanted to drop Counterspell for a long time. I had no objections to that option.

like i said, it's so much more aggressive that ugw. how could you possibly want this card in the mirror? to stop their mystic enforcers?

Yes, and you know what? When up against another aggressive deck, in this case, Bardo's deck, if they get that Enforcer out on turn 4, you're screwed.

You want Counterspell in the mirror so you dont lose the board domination war. Now with Tarmogoyf, I think Counterspell is becoming more imporant than ever.

this deck is aggressive, and therefore taps out on its turn often unlike ugw that sit behind a nimble mongoose. paul beat down with this deck and accumulated numerous turn 5-6 kills

I think your kills were consistent, not because of F/I, but because of Dryad and Lightning Bolt(s).

So does Bardo's deck. That awful looking thing beats down and wins turn 5-6 without burn consistently (thank you Goyf).

Also, not all UGw decks stand back and defend. It's only the Hatfield variant, and it probably pumps out answers and threats so well, you'd lose all your men by then, and being beaten down by a countless number of men no matter how many times you answer them. Just to make it look pathetic, it runs cards like Portent and Predict.

Edit. Actually, Hatfield Thresh doesnt even stand back and defend. What it does is trade creatures, and counters w/e you're about to play, and then finish it off with a resolved Enforcer.

i've never understood the obsession with these awful card quality enhancing cards. this is a format where you can play 4 LED and you want to play 1 mana scry 2 draw a card. nice format

In Vintage, you have access to so many broken cards, and yet, you playing shitty cards like Ichorid. Nice format.

I dont see Fire // Ice finding Force of Will, Daze, and Stifle.

Also, you think our format is so fast, and you question why we run cards that provide card quality? Such a simple question. The more cards you look at, the more likely you'll use what you need to win. In this case, we're actually looking for cards we need and denying dead cards in those MUs rather than investing more mana and drawing those cards.

this leads me nicely into my next point. this gp was a joke and a disgrace for the legacy community and its fanatics. you sure talk a great game, but how many dedicated legacy players t8'd? huh, interesting. so you forum idiots can sit and talk like you know what you're doing, but in reality you're contributions are meaningless and your words worthless.

No, this GP, we didnt get enough Legacy regulars up there because of Flash. We did influence the entire design though for the Flash decks. We werent up there because a lot of them didnt go because of Flash. If the meta remained as the Thresh/Goblins metagame, I know that the sourcers would do very well.

GP Philly, we had tons of Sourcers Top 8. We had Ben Goodman, Pat McGregor, and Tom Smart who is incorporated with pros with Legacy knowledge like Gerry Thompson (Who is here as GThompson and has tons of knowledge about our format), and such. Again, we influenced deckbuilding in that Top 8. Threshold was founded in Virginia and Minnesota (where Jesse River and Pat McGregor made UGR Thresh). David Gearhart also made 9th with Solidarity.

kicks_422

06-03-2007, 02:45 AM

@jwludyka: Nice way to introduce yourself to the Source.

Fire/Ice is good, but Magma Jet is better. Wee Dragonauts just KILLS. Like Anti-American said, just because the deck has red doesnt mean it's as aggressive as Goblins.

Liek

06-03-2007, 04:14 AM

I guess I have to say something. Joshie's post was a little rude.

1) Fire Ice, Magma Jet, Lightning Bolt.

Clearly the deck needs to have Lightning Bolt as it removes a Goblin Lackey on the first turn. 4 are needed to ensure that it takes place. After that, another burn spell is good to have. However, comparing Magma Jet to Fire/Ice is silly, Magma Jet should be compared to Lightning Bolt (where Bolt is better in every way imaginable.) Despite all of this, you all want to compare Jet to FI. I'll list each card's advantages over the other.

Fire/Ice:
-Blue (Force of Will.)
-Removes two 1 toughness creatures (Fish: Mother, Confidant. BW: Nantuko Shade, Confidant. Goblins: Lots of them. Red Deck: everything.)
-Sends one damage to a guy, one to the opponent. Every point makes them closer to dead.
-Can tap a large monster to push damage through (Loxodon Heirarch, I played against him. Also played against Exalted Angel.)
-Taps one Mishra's Factory on end step to prevent it from pumping another.
-Numerous other FLEXIBLE uses, far more than 2 mana 2 damage can provide.

Magma Jet:
-Scry for 2.

There was no comparison for me when I was building and testing, I never considered playing Magma Jet at all. I always cut it from Extended decks, so I didn't even bother trying it here.

2) Creatures

-Nimble Mongoose: obv.
-Werebear: Fits Nimble Mongoose's plan, taps for mana, beats.
-Quirion Dryad: Gets large, fits with Werebear and Mongoose's theme, gets large.
-Serendib Efreet: It's blue, but ultimately got cut because it always got STP'd at a horrible tempo loss (I'm the tempo deck!)
-Fledging Dragon: Never tested it, never even considered it. If a Wasteland takes down a red land it's extremely difficult to cast, let alone activate. Also very bad against STP.
-Tarmogoyph: Obviously I couldn't play this card. No enchantment or artifact in the deck. I'd like to see a decklist that can get it to maximum without relying on opponent's cards to do it. Also can't tap for G. If a deck were made to fully utilize it, Mental Note would be insane with it. However, I know nothing about what happens post FS, I've been working on formats that have events in the near future.
-Wee Dragonauts: Goblin Piledriver would like to have a word. Anyways, it seems really weak. I already have a problem with 3+ drops getting STPd at a horrible tempo loss. When adding some mainphase cantriping for the purpose of pumping this guy, we lose more tempo to a removal spell. Sounds bad.

3) Cantrips

-Brainstorm: The best card in the format.
-Serum Visions: Throughout the tournament, I was thoroughly unimpressed by this card. I didn't question its inclusion because every fucking fish/threshold deck in Legacy plays 4, but as I played with it, I was hating its lack of synergy with Mental Note. The only time I liked the card was when my opening hand contained one land and it, and I found the land with it (or scryed both to the bottom, then drew a land off the top.) Basically, this card seemed exceptionally weak at all points and I never really enjoyed having/casting it.
-Mental Note: This card was really good. Anything that combos with Brainstorm is automatically good, and the "getting threshold" part is gravy. Insane.

The ones I didn't play: Portent, Predict, Sleight of Hand

-Portent: This card isn't good. It's way worse than Serum Visions and I don't even like that card. I don't see how anybody plays this card, it's the clunkiest.
-Predict: Cute with Brainstorm and Serum Visions, or their Mystical Tutor, but I didn't play it because it's a 2 mana spell that doesn't egffect the board, and it doesn't even draw as many cards as Brainstorm.
-Sleight of Hand: Maybe in Standard Dragonstorm decks. This is an Eternal format.

4) Disruption

-Force of Will: Playing four.
-Stifle: This being a tempo deck, I decided to start testing with 3 of these. Then I realized that this was the single best card I could draw against Flash, the single best way to tempo out Goblins, and was useful in some capacity against every other deck, I went up to 4. With or without Flash in the format I wouldn't play less than 4.
-Spell Snare: This card is awesome, but I ultimately couldn't fit it maindeck. It was really good for me the whole tournament, though.
-Daze: This card is pretty good. It's easy to play around, but gets harder to play around when I have 2-3 gigantic monsters in play. I played 3.
-Pithing Needle: Decent, but not great, against most decks. Strong against Crucible decks and slow cards like Pernicious Deed. Proactive disruption against Kiki-Jiki Flash decks. I was happy with having one maindeck, I believe I won 3 game 1s where I played the Needle and stopped something important. 2 was a good number to have postboard, only once did I ever want to have more.

-Counterspell: I'm certain most of you will disagree with me about this one. The ideal amount of lands in play with this deck is 2 or 3. Every turn I used all of my mana, at most I'd leave 1 up to Stifle something or Brainstorm. If I ever had more than 3 lands in play, it meant that Serum Visions drew me a land (I hate when that happens, so annoying that my card selection spell draws a blind card off the top...) or I Brainstormed into lands when I was already holding lands. Basically, I never wanted more than 3 lands in play, and never would want to leave up 2 mana when I pass. Also, this card is slow. I want to win fast.

5) Other cards:

-Krosan Grip: I wasn't sure this would be any good, but it turned out to be nuts. Not only can it kill random enchantments like Leyline or Worship, it gives me a card to beat Fish's best card. Fish's only edges over me are Mother of Runes and Umezawa's Jitte. Many of my other cards deal with Mother, and I have Needles and Spell Snares to handle Jittes. The main problem with that plan is that if Fish wants to win with Jitte, the only thing they need to do is ensure the Jitte works, by holding their Force of Will and only using it on things that go after the Jitte (and by using Meddling Mage to protect it as well.) Krosan Grip was great here. Jitte would hit me once or even twice, and Grip takes it down, through their Force of Will, and they can't use counters they've saved up. If this card was in Standard when Jitte was, people wouldn't have complained about Jitte as much as they did.
-Pyroclasm: So insane. Casting this with a Mongoose in play is the best. This card was what made me 3-0 against Goblins in the swiss. Also got me through Slivers in round 10 and Fish in round 7. Also worked against a Zoo deck in round 13. So good.

6) Thoughts about the deck.

The reason I went with this rather than Fish or white threshold was that it played a much more aggressive game than either of those decks. Quirion Dryad led me to this, as it was always enormous in testing and killed very quickly. After a turn 4 kill against goblins, I knew this deck was better than the white one. It was simple, the closer they are to dead, the harder the tempo cards hit them. The lower their life total, and the bigger my guys are, the harder it is for them to get back into games they are behind in.

The next part is also something that seems simple to me, Lightning Bolt. I hate how ugw/fish's removal spell is Swords to Plowshares. I can't stand giving my opponent life when I'm trying to kill them with the combat step. Plow your Warchief, attack for 2, play 2/1 or 2/2, it's so weak. Lightning Bolt is killing the same stuff the STPs are killing, so honestly, what's the difference? Sure, Lightning Bolt can't take down bigger things, but Threshold doesn't win the long game against anything, its cards are too weak. STPing random Goblins isn't helping anything, if the clock isn't fast enough they will reach their midgame and blowout the Fish/thresh deck with insane production. It seems so basic to me. Plow and Bolt kill the same guys, one of the two spells both doesn't give them extra life and can go to their face. For the purposes I want it for, it's better in every way. Also, Lightning Bolt was pretty good against flash decks because Kiki-Jiki's ability is red, so if Bodyguard wants to stop a Bolt, it's also going to stop Kiki's ability.

So those are my thoughts on things about this deck related to the grand prix. Maybe this whole post was a waste of time, since it seems like this thread it talking about post-future sight, post-b/r announcement, but I decided to try to clear some stuff up from the last few posts here.

Hanni

06-03-2007, 03:26 PM

Fire/Ice:
-Blue (Force of Will.)
-Removes two 1 toughness creatures (Fish: Mother, Confidant. BW: Nantuko Shade, Confidant. Goblins: Lots of them. Red Deck: everything.)
-Sends one damage to a guy, one to the opponent. Every point makes them closer to dead.
-Can tap a large monster to push damage through (Loxodon Heirarch, I played against him. Also played against Exalted Angel.)
-Taps one Mishra's Factory on end step to prevent it from pumping another.
-Numerous other FLEXIBLE uses, far more than 2 mana 2 damage can provide.

Magma Jet:
-Scry for 2.

Fire//Ice is more versatile in that it can do more things. It's like a Jack of All Trades, Master of None. 1R for a 1/1 split or 1U to tap a permanent and draw a card is all versatile, but not very strong. Magma Jet's direct damage ability isn't as effecient as Fire and it's Scry ability doesn't actually draw a card like Ice, but it does BOTH of those and not just one or the other. One major concept of Threshold is that it runs alot of cantrip to increase card quality. Card quality is a huge aspect of Threshold that makes the deck function so well. Magma Jet doesn't replace itself but the Scry 2 ability makes sure the card quality is constantly good. Since the red splash has access to Magma Jet, it can run them as additional cantrip rather than Predict.

Hatfield Thresh cantrip base:

Brainstorm
Serum Visions
Portent
Predict

Red Thresh cantrip base:

Brainstorm
Serum Visions
Mental Note
Magma Jet

That's basically how I look at it. Magma Jet isn't as powerful as Predict in terms of card advantage but it doubles over as removal or reach.

-Wee Dragonauts: Goblin Piledriver would like to have a word. Anyways, it seems really weak. I already have a problem with 3+ drops getting STPd at a horrible tempo loss. When adding some mainphase cantriping for the purpose of pumping this guy, we lose more tempo to a removal spell. Sounds bad.

Wee Dragonauts is a personal preference. Alot of people think it's terrible. I don't. I don't see how Goblin Piledriver being problue is relevant to the function of Wee Dragonauts. Why would you want to block Piledriver when you run a ton of burn spells and other creatures that can block if need be? Dragonauts has Flying... Piledriver can't block flying. Evasion is pretty important for beating Goblins if you haven't played Pyroclasm... tons of chump blockers prevent Mongooses and such from pushing damage through. I like Wee Dragonauts because it increases the potential for turn 4-5 goldfishes, which improves the fast aggro matchup (like Goblins) as well as combo matchups. I treat Dragonauts as my red splash Mystic Enforcer... except it costs 1 less, it includes my main color of blue (which also happens to pitch to FoW), isn't dependant on Threshold, and can potentially swing for more. Oftentimes when you play Dragonauts, the next turn he swings for lethal. In the same vein, it is vulnerable to removal like StP. Like I said, it all comes down to personal preference.

---

jwludyka... and obviously you know everything and everyone else is stupid.

how can magma freaking jet even be compared? for some reason most legacy players are obsessed with scrying over actual card power.

How is Fire//Ice that powerful? Is splitting the Fire damage 1/1 THAT important? I'd rather just keep the damage together for 1 target AND Scry 2 cards. That's seems alot more powerful to me. Why are we obsessed with Scrying (and card quality in general)? Because, it means we are drawing relevant cards that ensure we remain in control of the gamestate. How much do you actually know about aggro/control in Legacy?

wee dragonauts? how awful. he benefits huge amounts of cards late game, and in which case you're winning anyway or dryad just would have been more efficient. laf

Laf. Yes, let's topdeck a Dryad because a 1/1 for 1G is so effecient. That must be why every Threshold list in the past couple of years has run Werebear instead of Dryad. I like Dryad, especially in the red version because of it's strength in the mirror, but it's an awful topdeck later on. I cannot seem to understand how Dragonauts is win-more. Explain? From my experience, Dragonauts is the complete opposite of win-more. You topdeck him and just win out of nowhere. It's like a combo-esque kill... you play him, the opponent looks at you like your a noob, and then you swing with a 9/3 flyer next turn ftw. GG. Laf.

counterspell? equally awful in ugr. like i said, it's so much more aggressive that ugw. how could you possibly want this card in the mirror? to stop their mystic enforcers? this deck is aggressive, and therefore taps out on its turn often unlike ugw that sit behind a nimble mongoose. paul beat down with this deck and accumulated numerous turn 5-6 kills

Yes, because you're obviously going to goldfish turn 5-6 every game. Especially against decks that counter your key spells and stuff. I mean, obviously the 4-8 extra burn spells you're running automatically makes your deck goldfish so fast that you don't need Counterspell. Because the deck is so aggressive. Why would you want to counter a spell with UU when you're deck is aggressive. I mean, you have such a large threat density that leaving UU open is almost always impossible to do. Laf.

i've never understood the obsession with these awful card quality enhancing cards.

The why in the fucking hell are you posting in the Threshold thread? /quit_magic

this is a format where you can play 4 LED and you want to play 1 mana scry 2 draw a card. nice format

Interestingly enough, decks running Serum Visions tend to have favorable matchups against decks running 4 LED's. How unusual.

so you forum idiots can sit and talk like you know what you're doing, but in reality you're contributions are meaningless and your words worthless.

LMAO... /quit_magic pls

Solpugid

06-03-2007, 03:56 PM

I've actually become very fond of running a Hatfield-esque red build. That is, 4 brainstorm, 4 serum visions, 4 magma jet, 3 portent, and 4 predict. Here it should be obvious that magma jet is superior to fire//ice AND that the red build can run a slower, more controlling game (my build has 3 counterspells to prevent larger or burn-proof creatures from seeing play when I can't handle them).

Every time I test more aggressive builds (i.e. mental note) I've been less than satisfied, and this is especially true with the red build. I'd rather have the option to have actual card advantage in this deck, but I understand that that may be a side effect of play style.

As for Sourcers doing poorly at the GP, I would strongly disagree. Because there is a large amount of luck in large tournaments (good draws, good matchups, etc.) you can't always expect the best players to top 8. However, you can expect them to do better than the average player. This is exactly what happened, with a disproportionately large number of Sourcers making day 2.

Liek

06-03-2007, 04:50 PM

How is Fire//Ice that powerful? Is splitting the Fire damage 1/1 THAT important? I'd rather just keep the damage together for 1 target AND Scry 2 cards. That's seems alot more powerful to me. Why are we obsessed with Scrying (and card quality in general)? Because, it means we are drawing relevant cards that ensure we remain in control of the gamestate. How much do you actually know about aggro/control in Legacy?

Yes, splitting the damage is important. I won a lot of games by burning my opponents, Fire dealing 1 to a guy and 1 to them is strong. I also shot two guys with Fire several times. I only cast Ice two or three times, but I pitched Fire/Ice to Force of Will many times.

Scrying to "remain in control" is silly, this deck is a beatdown deck, we don't take control, we win before they can take control. Threshold's cards are very weak, I was always the beatdown role and my plan was always to win before my opponents starting doing powerful things.

Let's be honest here, Threshold's single most powerful play is to Brainstorm then activate a fetchland. And most of the other decks also get to do that. Overall, threshold's cards are very weak. All of the good cards we have are also in our opponent's decks (Force of Will, Brainstorm.) When I played the deck, the longer any game went, the better my opponent's chances of winning were. This was especially true against Goblins and Crucible decks. Threshold has no late game, it has to win before the opponent gets to their late game (or in some cases, their midgame.)

Josh's initial post was rude, but was a rude response necessary? Telling him to "/quit_magic" is ridiculous and mean. Is it logical to ban someone for making a rude first post, then reply to him in an equally rude manner, when he can't reply to defend himself? And most of the stuff he said was right, he just said it in an exceptionally asshole-ish way. While I don't support telling people that their "contributions are meaningless and your words worthless," I do agree with a lot of what he said. Anyways, we can probably resolve this without any additional rudeness.

Citrus-God

06-03-2007, 04:57 PM

I guess I have to say something. Joshie's post was a little rude.
Glad you're taking this in a very responsible matter.

1) Fire Ice, Magma Jet, Lightning Bolt.

Clearly the deck needs to have Lightning Bolt as it removes a Goblin Lackey on the first turn. 4 are needed to ensure that it takes place. After that, another burn spell is good to have. However, comparing Magma Jet to Fire/Ice is silly, Magma Jet should be compared to Lightning Bolt (where Bolt is better in every way imaginable.) Despite all of this, you all want to compare Jet to FI. I'll list each card's advantages over the other.

No, we're comparing Magma Jet to Fire // Ice. It's all a matter of card quality v.s. card advantage. Burn is useless in a metagame full of Combo.... though I do see Fire // Ice being better as it piches to FoW and still kills Xantid Swarms.

Fire/Ice:
-Blue (Force of Will.)

Good argument.

-Removes two 1 toughness creatures (Fish: Mother, Confidant. BW: Nantuko Shade, Confidant. Goblins: Lots of them. Red Deck: everything.)

Magam Jet does this, and still let's you see a card.

-Sends one damage to a guy, one to the opponent. Every point makes them closer to dead.

Shouldnt matter when you have guys with the average stats of 3/3-X/X

-Can tap a large monster to push damage through (Loxodon Heirarch, I played against him. Also played against Exalted Angel.)

Decent argument, consdering Red has problems with big creatures, but Counterspell would've answered these creatures in the first place.

-Taps one Mishra's Factory on end step to prevent it from pumping another.

When you can kill the Factory in response to the pump.

-Numerous other FLEXIBLE uses, far more than 2 mana 2 damage can provide.

I admit, stealing your opponent's 2nd/3rd turn is rather vital. I see this move being decent against Goblins unless Vial resolves.

Magma Jet:
-Scry for 2.

I agree with Brassman; 3 random cards off a Recall isnt as good as finding a bomb via Tutor.

There was no comparison for me when I was building and testing, I never considered playing Magma Jet at all. I always cut it from Extended decks, so I didn't even bother trying it here.

Because card quality dont matter in decks that are currently running Magma Jet. I dont even see Magma Jet being good in Boros/Domain Zoo because every card it draws is going to be the same anyways. Magma Jet, in that case, is good in this deck because it utilizes different things, meaning you reject the things you dont need, such as Burn.

2) Creatures

-Nimble Mongoose: obv.

Agreed.

-Werebear: Fits Nimble Mongoose's plan, taps for mana, beats.

Good enough.

-Quirion Dryad: Gets large, fits with Werebear and Mongoose's theme, gets large.

Just a bad topdeck as a con.

-Serendib Efreet: It's blue, but ultimately got cut because it always got STP'd at a horrible tempo loss (I'm the tempo deck!)

Counterspell would've protected the poor thing....

-Fledging Dragon: Never tested it, never even considered it. If a Wasteland takes down a red land it's extremely difficult to cast, let alone activate. Also very bad against STP.

Big fliers only work when the deck has Counterspells and tons of control.

-Tarmogoyph: Obviously I couldn't play this card. No enchantment or artifact in the deck. I'd like to see a decklist that can get it to maximum without relying on opponent's cards to do it. Also can't tap for G. If a deck were made to fully utilize it, Mental Note would be insane with it.
Sorcery, Instants, Creatures, Lands. It's going to be 4/5 average, going to 6/7 or 7/8 against certain decks.

3) Cantrips

-Brainstorm: The best card in the format.

Agreement there.

-Serum Visions: Throughout the tournament, I was thoroughly unimpressed by this card. I didn't question its inclusion because every fucking fish/threshold deck in Legacy plays 4, but as I played with it, I was hating its lack of synergy with Mental Note. The only time I liked the card was when my opening hand contained one land and it, and I found the land with it (or scryed both to the bottom, then drew a land off the top.) Basically, this card seemed exceptionally weak at all points and I never really enjoyed having/casting it.

Then you do not understand why Turbo Xerox did so well, and probably did not understand why the Threshold decks at GP Philly did so well. They did well because they made up for their lack of pure card advantage for card quality.

The only time you should ever like that card is if you accept the philosophy of the deck. I doubt you will do well with any Vintage deck, Stax, Red Death, and Faerie Stompy if you do not accept the philosophy of the deck. If you do not like the philosophy, just cut the Visions and claim a new deck is being made with Mental Note. I dont think you can call this ThreshGro if you cut the Visions.

-Mental Note: This card was really good. Anything that combos with Brainstorm is automatically good, and the "getting threshold" part is gravy. Insane.

Cant say much there.

The ones I didn't play: Portent, Predict, Sleight of Hand

I dont blame you. A lot of people dont know how to play those cards correctly when they're new to the format.

-Portent: This card isn't good. It's way worse than Serum Visions and I don't even like that card. I don't see how anybody plays this card, it's the clunkiest.

Again, you must accept the philosophy of the deck. It's probably one of the best cards yet. It abuses Daze and FoW first turn like no other deck in the format, and doesnt make you draw dead like Brainstorm if you played it first turn.

-Predict: Cute with Brainstorm and Serum Visions, or their Mystical Tutor, but I didn't play it because it's a 2 mana spell that doesn't effect the board, and it doesn't even draw as many cards as Brainstorm.

Brainstorm doesnt draw. How in the world can you ever compare Brainstorm to Fact or Fiction? Comparing Predict to Brainstorm is the same argument.

4) Disruption

-Stifle: This being a tempo deck, I decided to start testing with 3 of these. Then I realized that this was the single best card I could draw against Flash, the single best way to tempo out Goblins, and was useful in some capacity against every other deck, I went up to 4. With or without Flash in the format I wouldn't play less than 4.

At the time, yes. Now, it sucks again. It sucks against Fish, it sucks against the mirror, it sucks against Faerie Stompy, it sucks against Red Death, it sucks against RGSA, it sucks against everything that isnt Combo or Goblins.

-Spell Snare: This card is awesome, but I ultimately couldn't fit it maindeck. It was really good for me the whole tournament, though.

It's pretty good at the time, I admit.

-Daze: This card is pretty good. It's easy to play around, but gets harder to play around when I have 2-3 gigantic monsters in play. I played 3.

You should've played 4. Bardo also utilizes the 4 Dazes as well, since he runs Mental Note.

-Pithing Needle: Decent, but not great, against most decks. Strong against Crucible decks and slow cards like Pernicious Deed. Proactive disruption against Kiki-Jiki Flash decks. I was happy with having one maindeck, I believe I won 3 game 1s where I played the Needle and stopped something important. 2 was a good number to have postboard, only once did I ever want to have more.

At the time, I probably wouldnt run it.

-Counterspell:
Every turn I used all of my mana, at most I'd leave 1 up to Stifle something or Brainstorm.

You were playing this deck aggressively.

If I ever had more than 3 lands in play, it meant that Serum Visions drew me a land (I hate when that happens, so annoying that my card selection spell draws a blind card off the top...) or I Brainstormed into lands when I was already holding lands.

Portent wouldnt have drawn you a land off the top. You could've Mental Note'd that crap away.

Basically, I never wanted more than 3 lands in play, and never would want to leave up 2 mana when I pass. Also, this card is slow. I want to win fast.

Again, you were aggressive. I know you hated to play land.

5) Other cards:

-Pyroclasm: So insane. Casting this with a Mongoose in play is the best. This card was what made me 3-0 against Goblins in the swiss. Also got me through Slivers in round 10 and Fish in round 7. Also worked against a Zoo deck in round 13. So good.

Reasons to run Red.

6) Thoughts about the deck.

The reason I went with this rather than Fish or white threshold was that it played a much more aggressive game than either of those decks. Quirion Dryad led me to this, as it was always enormous in testing and killed very quickly. After a turn 4 kill against goblins, I knew this deck was better than the white one. It was simple, the closer they are to dead, the harder the tempo cards hit them. The lower their life total, and the bigger my guys are, the harder it is for them to get back into games they are behind in.

This may be a good take, but all the good Goblin players there (except Owen and Jeff) played something else there. You were most likely up against awful Goblin players.

The next part is also something that seems simple to me, Lightning Bolt. I hate how ugw/fish's removal spell is Swords to Plowshares. I can't stand giving my opponent life when I'm trying to kill them with the combat step.

This is reasonable.

Plow your Warchief, attack for 2, play 2/1 or 2/2, it's so weak. Lightning Bolt is killing the same stuff the STPs are killing, so honestly, what's the difference?

I dont see it killing Enforcers and Tarmogoyfs.

Sure, Lightning Bolt can't take down bigger things, but Threshold doesn't win the long game against anything, Sits cards are too weak.

No, the way you play the deck doesnt have the long game. The way Bardo plays the deck doesnt have the long game.

Also, Lightning Bolt was pretty good against flash decks because Kiki-Jiki's ability is red, so if Bodyguard wants to stop a Bolt, it's also going to stop Kiki's ability.

This is a good argument of why Lightning Bolt is better at the time.

So those are my thoughts on things about this deck related to the grand prix. Maybe this whole post was a waste of time, since it seems like this thread it talking about post-future sight, post-b/r announcement, but I decided to try to clear some stuff up from the last few posts here.

That was arrogant. I suppose Legacy doesnt have a future.... *sigh

Citrus-God

06-03-2007, 05:03 PM

Scrying to "remain in control" is silly, this deck is a beatdown deck, we don't take control, we win before they can take control. Threshold's cards are very weak, I was always the beatdown role and my plan was always to win before my opponents starting doing powerful things.

Running cantrips allows it to switch roles around when needed be. I know Meandeck Gifts utilizes tutors, and that deck, like this deck, swicthes roles around when needed.

Overall, threshold's cards are very weak. All of the good cards we have are also in our opponent's decks (Force of Will, Brainstorm.)

Depends on the cards you run. The reaosn why I think you're saying this because you're running cards with short term use, like Dryad and Mental Note.

When I played the deck, the longer any game went, the better my opponent's chances of winning were. This was especially true against Goblins and Crucible decks. Threshold has no late game, it has to win before the opponent gets to their late game (or in some cases, their midgame.)

umm.... The NoVA crew may disagree with this. Against Goblins, it may be true, but anything else, it's build dependent.

Josh's initial post was rude, but was a rude response necessary? Telling him to "/quit_magic" is ridiculous and mean. Is it logical to ban someone for making a rude first post, then reply to him in an equally rude manner, when he can't reply to defend himself? And most of the stuff he said was right, he just said it in an exceptionally asshole-ish way. While I don't support telling people that their "contributions are meaningless and your words worthless," I do agree with a lot of what he said. Anyways, we can probably resolve this without any additional rudeness.

If you can, get him to respond with your account. But look at it like this, you come out with a negative message, your response will be a negative response.

Liek

06-03-2007, 05:52 PM

Hm. A lot to reply to.

"Quote:
-Removes two 1 toughness creatures (Fish: Mother, Confidant. BW: Nantuko Shade, Confidant. Goblins: Lots of them. Red Deck: everything.)"

Magam Jet does this, and still let's you see a card.

Magma Jet cannot kill two creatures.

"Quote:
-Sends one damage to a guy, one to the opponent. Every point makes them closer to dead."

Shouldnt matter when you have guys with the average stats of 3/3-X/X.

It does matter. Every point matters.

"Quote:
-Serendib Efreet: It's blue, but ultimately got cut because it always got STP'd at a horrible tempo loss (I'm the tempo deck!)"

Counterspell would've protected the poor thing....

Not when I tapped out to play it.

"Quote:
-Fledging Dragon: Never tested it, never even considered it. If a Wasteland takes down a red land it's extremely difficult to cast, let alone activate. Also very bad against STP."

Big fliers only work when the deck has Counterspells and tons of control.

So the plan is to get to 6 mana, play this with a Counterspell up? That's absurd.

"The only time you should ever like that card is if you accept the philosophy of the deck. I doubt you will do well with any Vintage deck, Stax, Red Death, and Faerie Stompy if you do not accept the philosophy of the deck. If you do not like the philosophy, just cut the Visions and claim a new deck is being made with Mental Note. I dont think you can call this ThreshGro if you cut the Visions."

I don't even know how to reply to this. I'll just say something arrogant, there's a check coming in the mail that says that I understood how to play my deck. There's also a powered vintage deck in my possession that indicates my knowledge of "philosophies" in that format. I honestly can't think of a response here that won't sound arrogant.

"Brainstorm doesnt draw. How in the world can you ever compare Brainstorm to Fact or Fiction? Comparing Predict to Brainstorm is the same argument."

Actually, Brainstorm DOES draw cards. Draw three cards, put two blanks on top of the deck, then shuffle them away. In reality, I just drew three cards. Considering Brainstorm a cantrip is far more silly than considering it a draw spell.

"Quote:
4) Disruption

-Stifle: This being a tempo deck, I decided to start testing with 3 of these. Then I realized that this was the single best card I could draw against Flash, the single best way to tempo out Goblins, and was useful in some capacity against every other deck, I went up to 4. With or without Flash in the format I wouldn't play less than 4."

At the time, yes. Now, it sucks again. It sucks against Fish, it sucks against the mirror, it sucks against Faerie Stompy, it sucks against Red Death, it sucks against RGSA, it sucks against everything that isnt Combo or Goblins.

Fish and the mirror contain Fetchlands, but I was still boarding Stifles out against those decks. I don't know what Red Death is, but if is has Fetchlands and Wastelands, I'm willing to wager that Stifle is good against them. And Mogg Fanatic, they probably play that. Maybe even Grim Lavamancer, that can be Stifled. I have no idea, though. RGSA probably has Fetchlands. And Stifling a Survival activation is card and tempo parity. It's not the greatest, but it doesn't seem like the worst.

"Quote:
6) Thoughts about the deck.

The reason I went with this rather than Fish or white threshold was that it played a much more aggressive game than either of those decks. Quirion Dryad led me to this, as it was always enormous in testing and killed very quickly. After a turn 4 kill against goblins, I knew this deck was better than the white one. It was simple, the closer they are to dead, the harder the tempo cards hit them. The lower their life total, and the bigger my guys are, the harder it is for them to get back into games they are behind in."

This may be a good take, but all the good Goblin players there (except Owen and Jeff) played something else there. You were most likely up against awful Goblin players.

This is probably the most outrageous thing I've read in awhile. Copy/Paste:

from the dci page...
07-05-1207862, Grand Prix Columbus 2007: 2007-05-19 - 2007-05-20 6

...
8 Mike P. Hron Win 1809
...
14 Owen Turtenwald Win 1880

Mike Hron won a Pro Tour. Owen T. finished 2nd in this tournament.

I really dislike the quote dissection of forum posts, but I suppose there's no other way to have this conversation.

Volt

06-03-2007, 06:50 PM

Too much penis waving on the Legacy message boards lately.

I think Fire/Ice and Magma Jet are pretty much a wash. The former favors a slightly more aggressive approach, the latter a slightly more controlling approach. Fwiw, I think Magma Jet is better for the aggro-control mirror match. In any case, whichever one you favor, I think you will agree that the other one isn't so vastly inferior that the proponents of that card are automatically knuckle-dragging morons.

Same thing for Serum Visions vs. Portent. The former is more aggressive, the latter more controlling. I used to prefer SV, but I've grown to like Portent a bit more. Whatever.

B4L4

06-03-2007, 07:00 PM

Hi there, i am new to the source, here is my first post (sry if i made mistake, i do not study english anymore..)

I tend to agree with Liek, every things he saids sounds to me like the truth, i mean, it really what i feel when i am playing UGr ********

For example:
a build with Predict, F.Dragon, 4xCS, ect.. , compared
to a build with Dryad, mental note, 1-2 CS

Here, i think its really a playskill difference, playing Predict his quite bad in my mind, since its just a way to "dream" about a mid/late game plan
This deck as no late-game, don't try to give it one, this is not the "good philosophy", for example against goblin, your best chance to win the game is not to sit and try to control board (maybe u can try it post board if u have pyroclasm), but the way to go is to drop threats and take the aggro role, and force them to chumpblock, while we are cutting them from CA (stifle, ect..)
And it make daze(not speaking about goblin MU specifficialy here) a lot better, 4xDaze is great with at least 7-8 burn spell, dryad, goyf, note

Then, id'like to give u my opinion on 2 discussed cards:
Fire-ice is really great here, pitching to FoW is a real relevant argument
Magma jet is decent, but i don't play it, cause i dislike to cantrip into cantrip (okay, fire-ice don't do better here), but what i mean is it; i dislike to play this card just because it srys, as i dislike to play an high amount of cantrip (higher than 13-14 is bad in my mind), cantriping into cantrip is just bad if u want to play the aggro role, u need threats

i'd rather have an higher amount of relevant card, on a lower of cantrip
I have always consider UGr as a deck with 3 "class" of cards (Creature, CS, and burns) + 1 "class" = cantrip, that allow u to assemblate at least 1 cards of each "class" in the first 2-3 turns, then allow u to focus on the "class" u need to topdeck

When u compare dryad with dragonaut, with the argument that dryad is a bad topdeck, i feel it's not a good argument
Cause, okay, if u topdeck dryad with no card in hand, dryad sucks hard, but if u topdeck dragonaut here, this sucks too...
Both need u to have about 2 cheap playable cards in hand, but one cards cost 2, the other 3
3 is already quit high in UGr, for example, my build run 17 lands, and i have dropped loaming shaman from my board, cause everytime i need to cast it, i just feel it was out of curve (don't consider the utiliy/power of shaman here, just consider the mana cost for my example)

frogboy

06-03-2007, 07:11 PM

Yeah, um, I'm gonna out Liek as Paul Nicolo (T8 at Columbus) before backhanded insinuations about his playskill get out of hand, as amusing as they may be.

Saying that Jet is better than Fire because it can kill a Factory in response to a pump spell is a little disingenious, by the way.

MattH

06-03-2007, 11:36 PM

Saying that Jet is better than Fire because it can kill a Factory in response to a pump spell is a little disingenious, by the way.
Well they both can do that, but Jet is better when you are doing it. That and situations like that are why I prefer Jet over F/I personally - when I need to kill something AND dig but don't have the mana to do both, Jet pulls through.

Citrus-God

06-04-2007, 01:41 AM

Magma Jet cannot kill two creatures.

Killing a Matron and a Goblin token is more important than killing Piledriver against Goblins? Honestly, I only like Fire // Ice in the Survival days when killing a Birds and a Mana Elf was stunting the opponent's development.

It does matter. Every point matters.When you're trying to win, yes, every point matters.

So the plan is to get to 6 mana, play this with a Counterspell up? That's absurd. Clearly you havent heard of FoW and Daze?

I don't even know how to reply to this. I'll just say something arrogant, there's a check coming in the mail that says that I understood how to play my deck. Yes, but still; you are still being ignorant about the fact Portent and Magma Jet actually do serve a key role in some ways this deck is built. You have also been ignorant about the way this deck is being played and built. I'm not telling you to be open minded, but if you're going to put something down, better think up a good reason before people like me kick the front door open.

There's also a powered vintage deck in my possession that indicates my knowledge of "philosophies" in that format. I honestly can't think of a response here that won't sound arrogant.Then just say it.

You were saying the Control side of Threshold was bad, and that card quality was bad. I had no idea how you could come up with these conclusions so impulsively without thinking why it was good in the first place. So far, you've only concluded your own results, and not the results of others. I admit, Predict wasnt so hot in that metagame at the time, but you still shouldnt go as far as calling it horrible in the first place. There's a reason why it's good when it had it's successes.

You dont have to accept the Control philosophy of the deck, but you shouldnt insult it, or call it bad. I know the Hatfields were ignorant and skepticle about the Mental Note builds, but I dont think they went that far to call it shitty and awful when others were raving around it.

Actually, Brainstorm DOES draw cards. Draw three cards, put two blanks on top of the deck, then shuffle them away. In reality, I just drew three cards. Considering Brainstorm a cantrip is far more silly than considering it a draw spell.Actually, it's still a cantrip. It doesnt give you card advantage, it gives you card quality. I dont see Brainstorm helping you fight attrition wars, where card advantage matters most.

Fish and the mirror contain Fetchlands, but I was still boarding Stifles out against those decks. Exactly how the card should be played against those decks.

RGSA probably has Fetchlands. And Stifling a Survival activation is card and tempo parity. It's not the greatest, but it doesn't seem like the worst.Stifling a Survival activation? No point, they already have card quality and card advantage over you.

This is probably the most outrageous thing I've read in awhile. Copy/Paste:

from the dci page...
07-05-1207862, Grand Prix Columbus 2007: 2007-05-19 - 2007-05-20 6

...
8 Mike P. Hron Win 1809
...
14 Owen Turtenwald Win 1880

Mike Hron won a Pro Tour. Owen T. finished 2nd in this tournament.

I really dislike the quote dissection of forum posts, but I suppose there's no other way to have this conversation.
Fine, I take that back.

I tend to agree with Liek, every things he saids sounds to me like the truth, i mean, it really what i feel when i am playing UGr ********

You europeans and your Mental Note Red Thresh.

Here, i think its really a playskill difference, playing Predict his quite bad in my mind, since its just a way to "dream" about a mid/late game plan

Nothing wrong with that was long as it's not the general concept where winning now is the only optimal option.

This deck as no late-game, don't try to give it one, this is not the "good philosophy", for example against goblin, your best chance to win the game is not to sit and try to control board (maybe u can try it post board if u have pyroclasm), but the way to go is to drop threats and take the aggro role, and force them to chumpblock, while we are cutting them from CA (stifle, ect..)

Dont think you can stabilize. Even when you're cutting them from CA, they can chumb block forever. Of course, you run out of card advntage and start topdecking chaff and a Ringleader resolves chaining into 2 more broken guys. But thats one argument that the Predict player would make agianst the Mental Note player.

And it make daze(not speaking about goblin MU specifficialy here) a lot better, 4xDaze is great with at least 7-8 burn spell, dryad, goyf, note

I will agree with this statement.

Magma jet is decent, but i don't play it, cause i dislike to cantrip into cantrip (okay, fire-ice don't do better here), but what i mean is it; i dislike to play this card just because it srys, as i dislike to play an high amount of cantrip (higher than 13-14 is bad in my mind), cantriping into cantrip is just bad if u want to play the aggro role, u need threats

Guess what? Magma Jer serves as both. It adds to your clock, and improves your card quality at the same time.

i'd rather have an higher amount of relevant card, on a lower of cantrip
I have always consider UGr as a deck with 3 "class" of cards (Creature, CS, and burns) + 1 "class" = cantrip, that allow u to assemblate at least 1 cards of each "class" in the first 2-3 turns, then allow u to focus on the "class" u need to topdeck

Chances are when you have something like Needle as utility, you wont be drawing into it unless you have cantrips.

mikekelley

06-04-2007, 11:35 AM

Just a bad topdeck as a con.

I like Dryad, especially in the red version because of it's strength in the mirror, but it's an awful topdeck later on.

Terrible topdeck, terrible topdeck. Which is exactly why it was ridden to a GP top 8. I mean, who would want that in their deck anyway? Clearly this guy was just lucky and never drew it once.

Fledling Dragon is a shitty topdeck too if you draw it with A. no thresh or B. no double R.

Goblin Snowman

06-04-2007, 11:53 AM

Terrible topdeck, terrible topdeck. Which is exactly why it was ridden to a GP top 8. I mean, who would want that in their deck anyway? Clearly this guy was just lucky and never drew it once.

Fledling Dragon is a shitty topdeck too if you draw it with A. no thresh or B. no double R.

I've been tossing around tons of different creatures for Red Thres, everything from Sceptor to Flame-Tounge to Burning Tree Shaman. Personally, I like them all in certain builds.
It comes down to how you want to play the deck. If you're going with a very agressive route, you should run Mental Note over Predict and whatever Burn spell you feel most comfertable with. I personally prefer Magma Jet and Predict, but it's your call. If you want a list that plays the control route, try out Isochron Sceptor, as if you can protect it, it's a win condition and infi card advantage by itself. If you want something that beats up Goblins early, try out Burning Tree. The "slight" differences between builds of Red Thres dramaticly change how the deck runs.

b4r0n

06-04-2007, 12:58 PM

Maybe Tarmogoyf would be better than Dryad? While it doesn't have the evasion of Dragon, and won't grow as enormous as Dryad can, it's easier to cast than Dragon and is a better topdeck than Dryad. I definitely think it's a better option than Burning Tree Shaman.

I think that the Fire/Ice vs Magma Jet debate boils down to the way you play the deck. If you're running Predicts, then you're likely playing a more controlling build and clearly you'd prefer the manipulation of Magma Jet. If you're running Mental Note, then you're likely playing a more aggressive build and probably prefer the efficiency of Fire/Ice. Neither is objectively stronger; they're just different, perhaps better suited for one style of play than another. It seems that the true argument is about the nature of the deck more than the choice between these two cards.

mikekelley

06-04-2007, 01:37 PM

I personally run Fire/Ice, Magma Jet and Predict in my build. I have them in as a 3/4/4 configuration, and it works pretty efficiently when i need it to.

Keep in mind that Tarmogoyf can be just as lousy as Dryad. Common sideboard hate for thresh will kill it as well, such as having an opponent Tormod's Crypt your 'yard, or having a Leyline in play. I personally think it is a meta call, or like baron said, comes down to your play style.

B4L4

06-04-2007, 03:37 PM

Dont think you can stabilize. Even when you're cutting them from CA, they can chumb block forever. Of course, you run out of card advntage and start topdecking chaff and a Ringleader resolves chaining into 2 more broken guys. But thats one argument that the Predict player would make agianst the Mental Note player.

Hum, so what is your plan to win goblin MU .?
If u don't plan to dominate the board early game, i do not see how u can be in a favorable board position turn 6-7 against gobbos..

Keep in mind that Tarmogoyf can be just as lousy as Dryad
Waoh waoh waoh... have u ever test tarmo in this deck?
Personally, since my first try with it, i consider him as my best creature....
But if u have tested it, i really want to heard what was wrong with this card to make u say that it can be a lousy topdeck...

(cause, if graves have been hated, it can"t have an inferior P/T than mangouse or bear, he would be at least 1/2)

aTn

06-04-2007, 06:07 PM

@Liek (and everyone else):

How would you adapt your GP list to a Flashless and less Fishy metagame ? In particular, which of the following creature bases would you favor ?

Option 1
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Quirion Dryad

Option 2
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Tharmogoyf

Option 3
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tharmogoyf
4 Quirion Dryad

Option 4
4 Werebear
4 Tharmogoyf
4 Quirion Dryad

In a more aggro meta, would you consider going for the UGRw splash (with something like -1 Forest, -1 Island, +2 Tundra) to include 1-2 Mystic Enforcer MD (and maybe 4 SB Meddling Mage) ?

-------
Aside
-------

Is it logical to ban someone for making a rude first post, then reply to him in an equally rude manner, when he can't reply to defend himself?

I agree with Liek on that one, he's right; give the guy a chance to explain himself in a civilized manner. Anyways, that's my two cents on the subject...

@jwludyka: Assuming most people who post on forums are retards compares to assuming all pro players are arrogant. (Guess that makes it my 4 cents, don't worry I won't spend more).

jazzykat

06-04-2007, 06:38 PM

I know I will be playing:

Option 3
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quirion Dryad

You use the following mechanics to make your creatures big thresh, card types in both graveyards, and casting spells that are a different color than green.

With a more varied mechanic for making big dudes and the ability for Tarmogoyf and Dryad to get silly quickly, along with the goose's untargetability...I can't think of a better set of beaters. I will probably also be looking to change some of the stifles in the winning build to Misdirection and go up to the 4th daze. I would probably also change the Needle to an EE.

aTn

06-04-2007, 07:54 PM

I will probably also be looking to change some of the stifles in the winning build to Misdirection...

I also thought about this but I don't know if the manabase will be affected by having less Stifles; they seemed to be handy against Wasteland from what I read in Liek's report. I'd probably cut Stifle #4 or Fire/Ice #3 for a second Needle maindeck. Having a basic Mountain in there could be nice also (maybe cutting one fetchland). I can't wait to get some testing done and try it at a local tournament (with what I consider to be the best option, number 3 that is).

Cait_Sith

06-04-2007, 09:01 PM

I find option 2 to be the best. Goyf is big quickly. Werebear is a good size under Threshold and you still get his great mana tapping power. Nimble Mongoose is a good beater and untargetable. Although Dryads gets huge quickly, there is still about 2 turns where they are vulnerable.

Citrus-God

06-04-2007, 11:51 PM

Hum, so what is your plan to win goblin MU .?
If u don't plan to dominate the board early game, i do not see how u can be in a favorable board position turn 6-7 against gobbos..

You play creatures, your sit back, and you have these options available to you during the game...

1. Send 1 creature to attack to see how far it can go, or how many creatures it can kill. Have a creatures (Mongeese preferred) sit back for defense. You need at least 2 creatures for this.

2. Play Pyroclasm, then do an alpha strike. Use your cantrips (when chaining cantrips is helpful) to go through your deck to find more Clasms so you can keep doing this.

Shriekmaw

06-04-2007, 11:56 PM

Option number 3 is clearly the best. Quirion Dryad has been forgotten how powerful a creature he is when utilized correctly. Tarmogoyf will be quickly found to be one of the best creatures in the new threshold build b/c of how fast he can become big. I think in the post flash metagame, you should play the red splash of threshold with mental note. I believe mental note has just gone up in value b/c of Tarmogoyf and Quirion Dryad.

Nydaeli

06-05-2007, 01:28 AM

I agree that the third configuration looks best. I believe that Tarmogoyf is strictly better than Werebear in this deck, due to its low curve and aggressive nature - you never need the mana ability to cast an Enforcer, for example. Additionally, this configuration is incredibly resilient to graveyard hate.

Kronicler

06-05-2007, 01:59 AM

Citrus-God

06-05-2007, 02:43 AM

I also believe that option 3 is the best. Infact, I just tested UGR Thresh using #3 configuration against Meathooks, to a negative result, and I have 2 questions for everyone here:

1) How do you beat Meathooks with UGR Thresh?

2) Why play UGR Thresh over Meathooks?

Kronicler

1. Keep the "Mussle Slivers" from coming into play, and make sure you have Dryad and/or Goyf to dominate the board. This match is actually a match up where Counterspell shines. From what I have seen, the match isnt as hard as it seems. The pre-board MU is about 50/50. Post-board gets better if you run Counterbalance. I made my mistake not boarding Counterbalance in.... of course, I was talking about my perspective with Hatfield Gro.

2. Better combo MU. More room in the maindeck for personal preferences and metagame slots.

xsockmonkeyx

06-05-2007, 05:21 AM

Kronicler

06-05-2007, 10:10 AM

How doe UGR Thresh have a better combo matchup than Meathooks? I guess G1 you have a better cantrip engine to find the 4 FoW and 4 Daze, but in general Meathooks plays more Counterspells than UGR Thresh. Post board, Meathooks brings in multiple stifles as well as a set of mages. I can't fathom how UGR Thresh would have a better game against combo post board with Meathooks bringing in that kind of hate.

Kronicler

Citrus-God

06-05-2007, 10:16 AM

How doe UGR Thresh have a better combo matchup than Meathooks?

umm... more room for cantrips and general control.

I guess G1 you have a better cantrip engine to find the 4 FoW and 4 Daze, but in general Meathooks plays more Counterspells than UGR Thresh.

umm... most UGr Threshold decks I've seen ran 10 counters at most. The EPIC and Hatfield ones run 3 Daze, 3 Counterspell, 4 Force of Will. Most Mental Note ones run 3 Counterspell, 4 Force of Will, 4 Daze, in which you can swap the Counterspells for Stifles in Storm heavy and Goblin heavy metagames.

Post board, Meathooks brings in multiple stifles as well as a set of mages. I can't fathom how UGR Thresh would have a better game against combo post board with Meathooks bringing in that kind of hate.

Pre-board game against combo is better, post-board game against combo is even better for you. Siding in Counterbalances is tons better than siding in Stifles.

xsockmonkeyx

06-05-2007, 02:59 PM

You may be right, Kronicler. Hooks packs the same amount of counters as UGR Thresh but has more open slots for extra counters (also mage) in G2,3.

Is it better to have more cantrips to find your counters, or more open slots to increase your counter density?

Kronicler

06-05-2007, 04:51 PM

Pre-board game against combo is better, post-board game against combo is even better for you. Siding in Counterbalances is tons better than siding in Stifles.

For the sake of this argument, let's say that both decks are running the same amount of counters, 4 daze, 4 fow, 2 Cspell. UGR Thresh will have a slightly better game against combo simply because it has more cantrips, I agree. But that will be very slight, probably 5% more, and good/bad luck would be more of a factor IMO. One must also consider that Mental Note doesn't really help you find counters unless paired with brainstorm when a fetch is unavailable.

Post board, you think that bringing in CB is stronger than bringing in 4 mage and 4 stifle?? I definately disagree here. Even if SDT is in the deck, you need to assemble both on the board for CB to actually be good (yes, I know it can randomly counter stuff) while hooks is packing a better anti-combo package than UGW Thresh post-board (or atleast equal to) which we all know trounces combo. Now even though I disagree with CB > Mage and Stifle, let's assume that it is. Can't Hooks SB them in? I guess my point is that Hooks can adapt most of what Thresh does while having creatures that become larger than anything thresh has and without the need for stuff in the GY (mongoose, goyf) or lots of spells played (dryad).

Kronicler

The Marco

06-05-2007, 05:02 PM

mikekelley

06-05-2007, 05:12 PM

Is Fledgling Dragon basically a goner after 'goyf?

Hanni

06-05-2007, 05:15 PM

Thresh actually has a much better matchup vs Slivers than you think. Slivers creatures aren't that good until they establish a couple on the board, whereas Thresh can invest G in a 3/3 or 1G in a 4/5 and go to town early. Crystalline Sliver only gives untargetability if it resolves. Thresh tends to win counter wars against Slivers due to the fact that it has more cantrip to dig for them and is far less mana hungry (i.e Slivers need to invest alot of mana into guys, where Thresh invests far less). If Slivers makes it to the late game, it will usually win (unless Thresh resolves a bomb like Enforcer and the Slivers player doesn't have Winged out or StP in hand). However, Thresh is clearly the beatdown early on. In my testing, UGw Thresh was slightly favored vs Slivers in game 1 and I can only see the matchup getting better for UGr Thresh since the burn can be aimed at the dome later on as extended reach.

Postboard, I agree that both decks can utilize Counterbalance. I think it would be akward for either deck, considering Thresh has a larger number of 1cc spells and Slivers has a larger number of 2cc spells, but I agree that both can utilize it to good effect. However, Thresh can bring in EE which is far more devastating against Slivers.

I think the combo matchup is actually better for Threshold of either splash because it doesn't need to commit as many creatures to the board early on to establish a good clock and can use it's mana instead to disrupt the opponent or dig for disruption. Counterspell in Slivers vs combo is terrible, Counterspell in Thresh vs combo is good, for example. The combo matchup is obviously better for the white splashes because of Meddling Mage, and Slivers does have solid postboard matchups against combo as well. Both Thresh and Slivers have solid combo matchups so it doesn't seem like that would be a strong point to try and argue about the merits of either deck.

I think a major difference between both decks is that Thresh plays a much better control game due to the cantrip density. Slivers has to overcommit threats to be successful, Thresh can drop just 1 or 2 guys. For this reason, Slivers has an awful control matchup while Thresh has a solid control matchup. I've never won a matchup against Landstill with Slivers while I have won matchups against Landstill with Thresh (especially the red splash because the additional reach of burn helps alot).

Mad Zur

06-05-2007, 05:51 PM

Post board, you think that bringing in CB is stronger than bringing in 4 mage and 4 stifle?? I definately disagree here. Even if SDT is in the deck, you need to assemble both on the board for CB to actually be good (yes, I know it can randomly counter stuff) while hooks is packing a better anti-combo package than UGW Thresh post-board (or atleast equal to) which we all know trounces combo. Now even though I disagree with CB > Mage and Stifle, let's assume that it is. Can't Hooks SB them in? I guess my point is that Hooks can adapt most of what Thresh does while having creatures that become larger than anything thresh has and without the need for stuff in the GY (mongoose, goyf) or lots of spells played (dryad).

KroniclerYou seem to be assuming one deck can adapt and the other deck can't. If for some reason it's correct to board 8 cards for combo in Slivers, there's no reason ***** couldn't do the same. (Also, wasn't the consensus in the MeatHooks thread that the deck can't effectively support Counterbalance?)

aTn

06-05-2007, 06:01 PM

Say we start with Liek's top 8 GP Columbus list (in which I made the following personal choices: -1 Stifle, -1 Fire/Ice, +1 Daze, +1 Needle) and swap the Bears for Goys:

UGR Threshold

Creatures (12)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tharmogoyf
4 Quirion Dryad

Cantrip (whatever you want to call them) (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions

Control, etc. (11)
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
4 Daze

Burn, etc. (6)
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire/Ice

Other (2)
2 Pithing Needle

Mana (17)
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Forest

What should be the sideboard for the post-Flash meta and what sideboard strategy should be used ?

Here's my first thought:

Sideboard:
4 Pyroclasm (Goblins, CRET Belcher, TES, Black based aggro, etc.)
3 Spell Snare (Fish, Black based aggro, etc.)
2 Krosan Grip (the usual: Crypt, Jitte, etc.)
6 ?

Should we play Jitte (like the Gro builds I know - some of them play it MD) ?
Should we dedicate SB slots to Counterbalance-Top ?
Should Stifle number 4 be included in the SB ?
Is Spell Snare still relevant ? I say yes mainly because Grunts tend to show up often in my meta, but I'd like to know what you think.

I ask again my age-old question: Since we run 3-4 maindeck Stifles making our manabase less prone to Wasteland, would it be a good idea to splash white for a SB or MD Mystic Enforcer (it might help vs. Slivers and aggro in general) ? If so, I'd probably go with the above build with - 1 Flooded Strand, -1 Wooded Foothills or -1 Forest, + 2 Tundra. It would give access to SB Meddling mages... and even maybe Worship (really not sure here).

------
Aside
------

Then just keep playing Meathooks, you are not adding anything to this discussion about how to make UGR Thresh better.

Good point. It's good to see you are posting again...

noobslayer

06-05-2007, 06:31 PM

I think you should only run basic mountain if you are running eighteen lands. Also, it should be an even split on the blue fetches; there's no reason not to do so.

I'd also try Portent over Serum Visions in that list.

B4L4

06-05-2007, 06:32 PM

About sb, i have tested quite succesfully some slots:

Ancient grudge: This card is good (1rst target = chalice) against goblins g2 to deal with vial and chalice, good against stacks, WW with Vial, jitte, pox,ect
Maybe if i get bored to loose to counterbalance, i'll return to Grip, but i do not see many dangerous enchantments for us (deed can already be handled with needle/stifle, aluren shouldn't resolves, ect...)

Disrupt works fine too, good and fast answer to fast combo (belcher, SI..), good in miror, own some player that keep in my to play around daze, but not around daze + disrupt.

Threads of Disloyalty: Grunt, tarmogoyf, confidant, ravager, ect..., legacy is a fast format with cheap creatures, and in this deck with low curve, threads > control magic

oh, and for creatures config, i choose
4 mangouse
4 tarmo
3-4 dryad, since its still the weakest link, we can cut 1-2, cause 10 or more threath is already a good number

aTn

06-05-2007, 06:44 PM

I think you should only run basic mountain if you are running eighteen lands.

Agreed and edited above.

I'd also try Portent over Serum Visions in that list.

That's a hard one for me as I'm not used to playing Portent. I guess I'd have to test it.

The Marco

06-05-2007, 07:03 PM

If you are playing with Dryad, serum vision is just better in my opinion. The fact that you draw a card right away enables you to probably cast at least another spell before attacking with you Dryad.

The Marco

06-05-2007, 07:11 PM

[QUOTE=aTn;136972]

What should be the sideboard for the post-Flash meta and what sideboard strategy should be used ?

Here's my first thought:

Sideboard:
4 Pyroclasm (Goblins, CRET Belcher, TES, Black based aggro, etc.)
3 Spell Snare (Fish, Black based aggro, etc.)
2 Krosan Grip (the usual: Crypt, Jitte, etc.)
6 ?

Should we play Jitte (like the Gro builds I know - some of them play it MD) ?
Should we dedicate SB slots to Counterbalance-Top ?
Should Stifle number 4 be included in the SB ?
Is Spell Snare still relevant ? I say yes mainly because Grunts tend to show up often in my meta, but I'd like to know what you think.
QUOTE]

I really like a pair of Loaming Shaman in the board, unaffected by needle and a decent beatstick, probably a pair of EE is good as well. I don't think Jitte belongs in this deck, especially with Mongoose but hey ... Jitte is good in just about any deck with a creature in it. Spell Snare to me is just too random and I prefer a hard counter (Counterspell) but thats just personnal preference.

Is anyone testing a gro built with Wee Dragaunots and Dryad beside Hanni...

Kronicler

06-05-2007, 10:31 PM

Then just keep playing Meathooks, you are not adding anything to this discussion about how to make UGR Thresh better.
I disagree. I think that examining the pros and cons of UGR Thresh vs. Hooks as well as how UGR Thresh beats Hooks is beneficial to the development and improvement of UGR Thresh.

Thresh actually has a much better matchup vs Slivers than you think. Slivers creatures aren't that good until they establish a couple on the board, whereas Thresh can invest G in a 3/3 or 1G in a 4/5 and go to town early.
While Thresh's threats to become super effecient once Thresh is reached, one must take into account the time that it takes for it to be reached. It's not like Goose starts as a 3/3 for 1. Goyf can beat decently early (probably a 3/4 on turn 3), but bear, goose, and dryad all take a bit longer to get going. You might be able to beat once with threshold, but by the time you get thresh, Hooks will most likely be well on their way to setting up a formitable army.

Thresh tends to win counter wars against Slivers due to the fact that it has more cantrip to dig for them and is far less mana hungry (i.e Slivers need to invest alot of mana into guys, where Thresh invests far less).
Thresh does dig more, but in my experience they don't end up with that many more counters than hooks. More, to be sure, but not enough to completely prevent Hooks from developing. Also, Hooks is more mana hungry than Thresh, but that is simply because Hooks plays more creatures and can continually deploy them rather than digging for more.

If Slivers makes it to the late game, it will usually win.
Agreed. Please define "late game" though. Turn 6? Turn 8? It seems to me that if Hooks survives the rush that Thres can supposedly produce early game, then Hooks will win.

In my testing, UGw Thresh was slightly favored vs Slivers in game 1 and I can only see the matchup getting better for UGr Thresh since the burn can be aimed at the dome later on as extended reach.
Our testing has showed that any Thresh with MM is about 50/50, while any Thresh without MM is in our favor atleast 60/40 if not more because we usually will survive the early game rush. Burn just becomes dead besides reach (which can, on occasion, finish us off after quick beats) once Crystalline resolves, and if Hooks saves it's counters to force it through or can cast it turn 2 on the play, before thresh can really start to cantrip then it usually will resolve. MM, on the otherhand, can cut us off from half of our muscle slivers, which are by far the most important cards in our deck against Thresh, and with Thresh's superior number of counters after cantripping and Hooks' only removal being STP, MM can almost always be protected. Because of all of this, I think that the Hooks matchup is not a positive one for UGR Thresh.

Postboard, I agree that both decks can utilize Counterbalance. I think it would be akward for either deck, considering Thresh has a larger number of 1cc spells and Slivers has a larger number of 2cc spells, but I agree that both can utilize it to good effect.
Yeah, we don't really love CB in the SB, I was just showing that both decks can use almost the same form of combo hate, except that UGR Thresh doesn't have access to mage, the best combo hate of all.

However, Thresh can bring in EE which is far more devastating against Slivers.
Yes, EE hurts Hooks a lot, but Hooks can bring in needles and some of us even run them mainboard (such as myself) as well as any GY hate we have.

I think the combo matchup is actually better for Threshold of either splash because it doesn't need to commit as many creatures to the board early on to establish a good clock and can use it's mana instead to disrupt the opponent or dig for disruption.
This is a valid point, and I agree, but I think that the post board combo matchup of Hooks is better than the post board matchup of UGR Thresh, although every single percentage we are talkin about here for all 3 decks is positive, so in the end it doesn't really matter.

Counterspell in Slivers vs combo is terrible, Counterspell in Thresh vs combo is good, for example.
I dunno about "terrible", but it is better in Thresh because 1 beater can go the distance. Though with Hooks, I have, on many occasions, gone T1 Plated, T2 Muscle, T3 leave open mana for counterspell against combo. You are certainly correct, though, it is better in Thresh, I just disagree with the disparity of effectiveness that you believe between the 2 decks.

I think a major difference between both decks is that Thresh plays a much better control game due to the cantrip density. Slivers has to overcommit threats to be successful, Thresh can drop just 1 or 2 guys. For this reason, Slivers has an awful control matchup while Thresh has a solid control matchup. I've never won a matchup against Landstill with Slivers while I have won matchups against Landstill with Thresh (especially the red splash because the additional reach of burn helps alot).
This is most certainly true, though MD needle in Hooks helps a bit. The only way Hooks can win is to drop Crystalline and Muscle and beat for 5 a turn while accumulating counters and threats to redeploy once your 2 guys get wiped. Once that eventually happens, drop 2 more guys and continue going to town like that, just takin little bits of life at a time. The other difference between both decks is that Hooks has a very positive Gobos matchup while Thresh does not. Now, I'm not sure of how much better UGR Thresh's matchup is than UGW Thresh (I'm guessing it's about 50/50 preboard but I could be wrong), but either way Hooks has a decently higher match % against one of the best, if not the best deck in the format.

You seem to be assuming one deck can adapt and the other deck can't. If for some reason it's correct to board 8 cards for combo in Slivers, there's no reason ***** couldn't do the same.
This is very true, but, as I stated before, UGR Thresh doesn't have access to MM, the best anti combo thing around.

(Also, wasn't the consensus in the MeatHooks thread that the deck can't effectively support Counterbalance?)
Yes, our testing has shown that CB is not effective in Hooks, but I guess this brings up the question of whether MM and Stifle are better than CB against combo? I believe MM and Stifle are superior.

Kronicler

Citrus-God

06-05-2007, 11:07 PM

This is very true, but, as I stated before, UGR Thresh doesn't have access to MM, the best anti combo thing around.

Not true. I've played Counterbalance in UGw Hatfield Gro forever now, and have never seemed to look back at playing with Meddling Mage.

I play Counterbalance over mage because

1. Even though it's slow, in a build with 10 1cc cantrips, and 3 Tops, you've assembled Counterbalance by turn 3 consistently. I doubt combo will go off early if they dont have enough protection.

2. It's good against other decks as well, like the aggro control mirror. And even without MM, flipping over a random card still stops them from comboing, from 0cc artifacts, 1cc Rituals, and 2cc Tutors. This deck's mana curve is awesome.

Yes, our testing has shown that CB is not effective in Hooks, but I guess this brings up the question of whether MM and Stifle are better than CB against combo? I believe MM and Stifle are superior.

Because you're lacking the cards to find it quickly and efficiently. MM and Stifles are better in that deck becuase it can work without functioning together. Counterbalances doesnt always need top, but it's more consistent with what you want counter'd with top.

Stifles are good against decks like Goblins too. Mage is good against Thresh by stopping Swords and dominating the board.

Mad Zur

06-05-2007, 11:16 PM

This is very true, but, as I stated before, UGR Thresh doesn't have access to MM, the best anti combo thing around.
That's arguable, and depends somewhat on the combo deck. Even if Mage is the best, it isn't usually by such a wide margin that a deck with Mage is better than a deck that can more easily find and protect whatever disruption it does have in that slot.
Yes, our testing has shown that CB is not effective in Hooks, but I guess this brings up the question of whether MM and Stifle are better than CB against combo? I believe MM and Stifle are superior.Like I said, if that much combo hate is really warranted in one deck, it is probably warranted in the other. You're saying one deck is better than the other against combo because it's running twice as much hate. Both decks can and often do run Stifle and many other anti-combo options.

Cait_Sith

06-05-2007, 11:27 PM

I think you should only run basic mountain if you are running eighteen lands. Also, it should be an even split on the blue fetches; there's no reason not to do so.

This is my big complaint with Red Thresh over White Thresh, the fact that you cannot run fetchable basics. Adding vulnerability to LD and color screw, however small, is not something I like, especially when lands are tight.

I'd also try Portent over Serum Visions in that list.

I would drop the 3 Stifles MD all together, change them to Serum Visions, and run 4 Portent. Portent is an extremely flexible card that can provide some control over your next 3 draws (or stop your opponent from ripping off some bombs from their topdeck.) It is a slowtrip, so it tends to be better early game and doesn't work nearly as well with Dryad as Serum Visions (part of the reason I am not a big fan of Dryad), but it the fact it can be turned against your opponent to keep them from stabilizing is amazing.

Also, the fact only 8 counter are run in favor of Stifles and a heavier creature base seems excessive to me now that Flash is gone. Stifle was strictly worse than Counterspell against Trinisphere (one stops it, the other does nothing), while Counterspell tends to be more useful, since doing a Chalice for 2 before a Chalice for 1 is an incredibly poor move in general and especially against Thresh.

On a less related note: I prefer Tops over Needles, because the former is never dead, and often quite good with a cantripping engine, while the latter is very good in some matchups, "meh" is others, and practically dead in others still.

Also, I prefer Predict over Mental Note: Predict let's you use Portent to mill away an opponent's nasty card or draw 2 off chaff, avoids a Chalice at 1, and is the only card in Thresh that can provide actual card advantage. In return you get a slightly slower card that gives +1 less to Threshold, but that seems to be less relevant with builds that run Goyf.

noobslayer

06-06-2007, 11:15 AM

This is my big complaint with Red Thresh over White Thresh, the fact that you cannot run fetchable basics. Adding vulnerability to LD and color screw, however small, is not something I like, especially when lands are tight.
Wooded Foothills much? The mana base is fine as it is. You can run anywhere between 7 and 9 fetches at your leisure (I'm sold on 7 or 8 personally). I don't usually have any issues unless say I'm against a deck that nails upwards to three wastelands in a single game. Stifle anyone?

I would drop the 3 Stifles MD all together, change them to Serum Visions, and run 4 Portent. Portent is an extremely flexible card that can provide some control over your next 3 draws (or stop your opponent from ripping off some bombs from their top deck.) It is a slow trip, so it tends to be better early game and doesn't work nearly as well with Dryad as Serum Visions (part of the reason I am not a big fan of Dryad), but it the fact it can be turned against your opponent to keep them from stabilizing is amazing.
You aren't saying anything we don't already know. I don't want to sound rude, but we can read the cards we play with. Also, this deck has recently gone off into two directions. The control build, and the aggro-tempo build (ala Paul Nicolo's Top 8 Build at GP Columbus). You can't make suggestions to one build hoping it will play like the other build.

Also, the fact only 8 counter are run in favor of Stifles and a heavier creature base seems excessive to me now that Flash is gone. Stifle was strictly worse than Counterspell against Trinisphere (one stops it, the other does nothing), while Counterspell tends to be more useful, since doing a Chalice for 2 before a Chalice for 1 is an incredibly poor move in general and especially against Thresh.
Once again, there are two builds. The tempo build does not want to leave two blue mana open every turn when it could be laying threats, dealing with other threats on the board, or swinging the turns with stifle. For this reason I've taken to main decking Engineered Explosives over Pithing Needle, and may even go up to two of them. I don't believe the heavy creature base is excessive in the tempo build. Not at all. Pressure wins games.

On a less related note: I prefer Tops over Needles, because the former is never dead, and often quite good with a cantripping engine, while the latter is very good in some matchups, "meh" is others, and practically dead in others still.

Also, I prefer Predict over Mental Note: Predict let's you use Portent to mill away an opponent's nasty card or draw 2 off chaff, avoids a Chalice at 1, and is the only card in Thresh that can provide actual card advantage. In return you get a slightly slower card that gives +1 less to Threshold, but that seems to be less relevant with builds that run Goyf.
All stuff we know. We could have avoided a fair bit of filler with you saying you prefer the control build more, and then posting your list with a few comments on choices and numbers. On that note, what is your list?

umbowta

06-06-2007, 11:17 AM

Well I'm certainly happy that there is some conversation about running Goyf in UGR thresh now. I waited patiently for Goyfs to become legal so that I could slip them in. They simply make the deck more aggressive, just the way I like it. In some light testing vs Vial Gobs, swinging on turn 3 with a 5/6 Goyf, w/o threshold, made me smile ear to ear. After that, answering the question of whether or not to get a playset of foil Goyfs was made quite clear. I'm in love with a Lhurgoyf.

I still have not decided which way to run the critter/cantrip package. Clearly in this case one effects the other. Hopefully I'll be able to sneak up to RIW for some testing.

Here's what I'm looking at

Option 1:
Critters:
4 Mongoose
4 Goyf
4 Dryad
Cantrips:
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Slieght of Hand

Option 2:
Critters:
4 Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Goyf
Cantrips:
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions

The cantrip package in option one is meant to maximize the potential for big Goyfs and Dryads while losing some of the potential for hitting threshold quickly. Thankfully Mongoose is still a decent one drop w/o threshold.

Option 2 feels more agressive to me. While it gives up the potential fat body of Dryad, it can hit threshold more quickly while simultaneously retaining the mana stabilizing ability in Werebear.

I want to play the deck as aggressively as possible so I'll prolly run option 2 first. The only thing that makes me think twice about this is my long lasting love affair with the Green Lady. That said, I have toyed with the idea of running a couple Dryads in addition to my option 2 critters.

kicks_422

06-06-2007, 11:22 AM

I don't know if this would pique anyone's interest, but the creature base I was running was 4 Mongoose, 4 Goyf, and 3 Trygon Predator.

Trygon Predator just answers so much random stuff that I got sold on it pretty darn quick. It also has some synergy with Goyf, since it puts artifacts and/or enchantments into the opponent's yard (well, at least those that slipped through countermagic).

Of course, it helped that I was running 8 Burn spells and 2 Scepters to make up for the loss of muscle.

Adan

06-06-2007, 11:39 AM

aTn

06-06-2007, 01:37 PM

This is my big complaint with Red Thresh over White Thresh, the fact that you cannot run fetchable basics.

I'm sure I'm misinterpreting your comment (or else I suggest more reading, more playtesting and less posting ).

Island <=== Flooded Strand, Polluted Delta
Forest <=== Wooded Foothills
Mountain <=== Wooded Foothills

If you are scared of LD, you can (as in the white splash) run 18 lands with
7-8 fetchlands, 6 duals and 4-5 basic lands. The situation is analogous for both splashes. As for the manabase in Liek's list, he explained his choices in his report (see TMD) or earlier in this thread.

I prefer Tops over Needles, because the former is never dead, and often quite good with a cantripping engine, while the latter is very good in some matchups, "meh" is others, and practically dead in others still.

If your metagame is such that Needle is almost useless most of the time, it's clear that you should cut it; in which case I'd ask: What is your metagame ?
Needles are VERY useful vs. Vial, Jitte, Pernicious Deed, Crypt, sometimes Wasteland or Port, etc., and you'll probably need them if you cut the Stifles.

@Cait_Sith: To be honest, I'm not the best threshold player in the world but I consider myself to be competent with the deck and it seems from my point of view that most of your arguments are based on theoretical reasonings which ignore key aspects (see above). It seems as if you haven't played much with the deck. I may be wrong and in no way do I want to attack or offend you, but if I'm right I'd suggest more playtesting.

Option 2:

Critters:
4 Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Goyf

Cantrips:
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions

Option 2 feels more agressive to me. While it gives up the potential fat body of Dryad, it can hit threshold more quickly while simultaneously retaining the mana stabilizing ability in Werebear. I want to play the deck as aggressively as possible so I'll prolly run option 2 first.

The only thing I don't like with this option is that its more dependent on threshold than the Tharmogoyf-Dryad-Mongoose trio. I guess it all depends on which is more important in your meta:

1) the ability to tap for G (e.g. vs. Stax) ;
2) the resilience to graveyard hate (e.g. vs. Grunt, Leyline, etc.).

umbowta

06-06-2007, 02:50 PM

Adan, while Portent digs deeper, Sleight of Hand increases the chance of being able to string cantrips and/or burn together to put counters on Dryads. With 2 immediately relevant cards in hand (Dryad/cantrip x) then cantrip x being either Brainstorm,Sleight, or Serum Visions is better than Portent in any case that I can think of. Do you have an example or two that might change my thinking?

I can already conceed to your point about working with a one land hand on the play, where I might rather Portent than Sleight. Getting into a mid/late game situation when I need to grow a Dryad is where I feel Sleight makes up for its early, minimal deficiencies.

aTn, my second option is definitely more grave reliant, thus the inclusion of 4 Mental Note. With that setup I would also be sticking to 4 Stifle in the main, which would obviously help protect the yard except in the Leyline case. However, flash is banned and I expect that the number of leylines around will diminish significantly.

noobslayer

06-06-2007, 02:51 PM

I'd less concerned about combo growing your dryads, than actually having reasonable card quality.

Midian

06-06-2007, 03:40 PM

I wonder if anyone gave Sea Drake a try in the deck?
I was tinkering with this list lately and had some good results with it:

// Lands
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Forest
1 Island

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Sea Drake

// Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
3 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Fire/Ice
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Counterbalance
2 Predict
2 Serum Visions

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Counterbalance
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 3 Spell Snare (maybe something else)
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Trinket Mage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt

Sea Drake is a solid beater with evasion, fullfilling the role of Enforcer or Fledgling Dragon while having lower CC und perfectly fits the mana curve.
In addition to that, its a card in the 3CC slot for Counterbalance synergies and surpasses Chalice or opposing CBs.
Also bouncing lands has some positive side effects in the deck sometimes.

I prefer 2 CB + 2 Tops main, with an option on the Trinket Mage tutor box in the sideboard for a more "controlish" play.

I like Predict as a 2 of, because I hate drawing into multiples early on, but the option to cantrip for CA is available in longer games.

mikekelley

06-06-2007, 04:30 PM

Sea Drake is a swell card, but generally not a good idea to drop until turn 4-5, unless you're playing Faerie Stompy and can power it out without the drawback. the allure of Goyf and Dryad are that they can be dropped early, and get big early, without bounding lands to your hand, (which goes against the idea of your deck...light on land, big on removal and threats)

Midian

06-06-2007, 04:49 PM

Citrus-God

06-06-2007, 05:23 PM

Cut Fire // Ice from the deck for another Sea Drake, and 2 Pithing Needles.

In the SB, cut the Trinket Mages, Needle, Spell Snares, and EE for 2 Ancient Grudge, and 1 more Pyroclasm, 3 Winter Orb, 1 Jedit.... it's tech.

mikekelley

06-06-2007, 05:36 PM

From my experience, the problem with Dryad is not the lack of power, but a lack of evasion in the deck (and CC3 if you consider Counterbalance), which is sometimes essential (eg in stalemates) to win me games.

I can's see how a turn 3 4/3 flyer should be a loss of tempo.

Bouncing lands has never been a problem for me, as the Deck operates perfectly on 2 lands.

It really doesn't though. Missing a land drop anywhere up till turn 4 is generally not good in my opinion. Granted you aren't really missing any, but you could be cantripping/drawing into removal while your drake bounces lands to your hand. Truth be told, I would much, much rather play Fledgling Dragon than Sea Drake. For only 1 more mana, we get a 5/5 flyer with firebreathing, which is much more than a 4/3 drake.

Midian

06-06-2007, 05:43 PM

One mana more, but at double red while Drake is single U and doesn't depend on graveyard. I tried Dragon, and it never really satisfied me.
In contrast to that, the Drakes work perfectly fine for me, but that's just my personal opinion after testing them. And there are situations where bounce is helpfull (turn 4, three lands not drawing another...play Drake, bounce Volcanic or s.th., play it again and bring Bolt or Top online.)

Happy Gilmore

06-06-2007, 06:46 PM

Mad Zur, Obfuscate Freely, and myself played 3x Sea Drake (in UGR) durring GP Philly. I can't speak for them, but I felt they were the weaksauce every time I played em.

luka66_6

06-06-2007, 07:03 PM

Here is my build,
What do you think?
Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Serendib Efreet
Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Stifle
3 Mental Note
4 Daze
3 Magma Jet
3 Fire/Ice
4 Force of Will
Lands
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Mountain
1 Island
1 Forest
SB (still work in progress)
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroclasm
3 Tormod's Crypt
Should I add
Ancient Grudge 3 or
Ancient Grudge 2 and Pyroclasm 1 or
Null Rod 3
something else?
I like Serendib Efreet in deck. It flyes it pitches to fow it survives Bolt.

Citrus-God

06-06-2007, 07:38 PM

Mad Zur, Obfuscate Freely, and myself played 3x Sea Drake (in UGR) durring GP Philly. I can't speak for them, but I felt they were the weaksauce every time I played em.

Yea, I remember you told me about your dislike for them. I tried them out, and they seemed to be alright when I tested them. But, honestly, there are better out there. Dragon is alright, but you need the cantrips to find the land to make Dragon good, or else your mana base will fall apart if you dont have a lot of cantrips to support it.

noobslayer

06-06-2007, 07:44 PM

If you are running that much burn, you should definitely be playing Quirion Dryad, as she will become huge beats (or reasonably sized) with that much burn covering her buns. Also, I'd never go to less than twelve REAL cantrips. My burn configuration in this deck for Lightning Bolt/Fire/Magma Jet is 4/3/2. That way I'm not over doing it, and there is still plenty of room for other relevant spells.

Kronicler

06-06-2007, 09:39 PM

Hey Mad Zur, Anti-American, and Happy Gilmore, what are your current UGR Thresh lists? I'd love to see them.

Thanks,
Kronicler

Citrus-God

06-07-2007, 12:06 AM

Hey Mad Zur, Anti-American, and Happy Gilmore, what are your current UGR Thresh lists? I'd love to see them.

Thanks,
Kronicler

If I can remember, I think Gilmore is playing Mad Zur's List. (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=114854&postcount=183)

If I can remember the changes Gilmore made to the deck is

-1 Fledgling Dragon
-1 Predict

+2 Pyroclasm

An the SB as a 3rd Ancient Grudge and I forgot what's the 2nd card that ie being ran over Clasm.

The list I'm running right now is Mad Zur's list. It's a good deck, it's just that it requires a strong amount of creativity and patience to play. I know I made mistakes because I didnt give myself the time to look over the situation whenever I play a cantrip.

Kronicler

06-07-2007, 12:30 AM

Citrus-God

06-07-2007, 02:50 AM

I assume that, in that list, you would straight up swap bear and goyf post FS, correct? Also, with that list, how is the Meathooks matchup? CB coming out of the side seems strong, but some testing results would be appreciated if anyone has them. Or, if people have other lists they have tested against Hooks, those lists and the results of that testing would also be appreciated. By the way, I mension Hooks a lot not only because I play it, but because it has become a major player in my metagame, so when considering a deck, I actually have to worry about Hooks about as much as gobos!

Kronicler

EDIT: Anyone else have more aggresive builds of UGR Thresh that have been sucessful? I just can't get over how Goyf and mental note seem to go so well together and how they could, potentially, allow Thresh to have the ability to start beating down much earlier.

Well, you have Goyf. Most wont agree, but I think switching to White is a much better move at the moment because Goyf made the Goblins MU much better.

Against Meathooks, the Aggressive version is probably weaker than the controllish lists in this MU. The fact the Controllish lists can find ways to answer Mussle Slivers, and keep counters consistently rolling against Crystalline Slivers, you might want to play the Wastedlife/Hatfield version.

As for more aggressive lists, here's one. It's played by Wastedlife before he saw the light, and I've had success with the build as well. It has a ton of Burn, it pressures the mirror very well, and it's fast. I made so many Turn 5 kills against Solidarity. All the games against Solidarity, I burned them out when they were tapped out while comboing out.

// EPIC UGR Gro
// Lands 17
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Island

// Creatures 10
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear (Or Goyf)
2 Fledgling Dragon

// Spells 33
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Fire // Ice
3 Daze
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

// Sideboard 15
4 Pyroclasm
a Mix of cards like Ancient Grudge, Crypt, Needles, Dis-E effects, and such.

Only changes I would make to that deck is

-1 Fire // Ice
-1 Counterspell
-4 Serum Visions

+1 Flooded Strand
+1 Daze
+4 Portent

That deck is so aggressive, having Daze is much better. Portent, IMO, is much better in this deck than Visions. With 4 Dazes, 4 FoWs, and 10 Burn spells, I doubt drawing dead with Portent will matter, since you want to be drawing into burn anyways (which you should be doing).

I know I expressed my dislike for Fire // Ice, but it pitches to FoW, so w/e.

The deck is full of 2cc costed cards, and only has 15 Blue Sources (although this shouldnt matter considering the fact that half your deck is Red), but I had mulligan problems in the past, alas, I am not running 17 lands, but 18 lands to fix openning hands.

Kronicler

06-07-2007, 07:25 PM

May I ask why none of the lists that you've shown me, Anti-American, have mental note in them? I month ago you could have said that it hadn't put up results, but the UGR Thresh deck that just T8ed ran 4 and didn't run Predict, something all of the lists you've shown run. Is predict really THAT good and is mental note really not worth a slot?

Kronicler

Cait_Sith

06-07-2007, 08:05 PM

Is predict really THAT good and is mental note really not worth a slot?

Let me try to answer that. Mental Note gives one more card to Threshold (normally) than Predict while costing one less. This makes it much faster, so why run Predict?

1) Card advantage. Thresh has almost no means of generating card advantage (except for maindeck Engineered Explosives [and combat], but even that may or may not generate it). Predict can allow you generate actual card advantage.

2) It has immense synergy with Portent and, to a lesser extent, Brainstorm and Serum Visions. That can almost guarantee you hit something less important while drawing cards. You can even turn it, with Portent's help, as a weapon against other decks by milling nasty spells (and drawing two cards).

3) It bypasses Chalice at 1 and so lets you have some ability to dig for your answers game 2.

Kronicler

06-07-2007, 10:57 PM

Well those are pretty decent arguments, but if predict is so good, why does UGW Thresh run mental note over it? I know this may be starting an age old debate, but even if you don't agree with the answers that I'm asking for, I would appreciate hearing them anyway.

Thanks,
Kronicler

Obfuscate Freely

06-07-2007, 11:28 PM

Well those are pretty decent arguments, but if predict is so good, why does UGW Thresh run mental note over it?
Good builds don't? What kind of a question is that?

Nobody is arguing about Tarmogoyf anymore, are they? That guy is ridiculous. You don't have to drop Werebear to fit Tarmogoyf in the deck, but doing so does make graveyard hate a lot less effective against you.

Plus, if the deck only runs 5-6 creatures with ********, maybe I can get away with calling the deck Gro again.

I like how Tarmogoyf makes the red splash a little better in the mirror than it was before. Remember how awful Lightning Bolt was whenever you were facing down a Werebear with one of your own? In a Tarmogoyf standoff, a Bolt is actually highly relevant, as it can trade evenly with their blocking or blocked 'goyf.

Kronicler

06-07-2007, 11:54 PM

Solpugid

06-08-2007, 01:22 AM

Predict vs. mental note is, and in my opinion always will be, either meta-dependant or a personal preference. I for one prefer a more controlling build, so I run portent and predict over mental note. However, this by no means makes it the best build out there. I really don't think having the white splash or red splash changes this fact.

Really, this argument/question keeps coming back (no offense intended, Kronicler) and it never gets us anywhere because of the fact that it is so moot. I do, however, disagree with the inclusion of sleight of hand over the other cantrips as I find it to be weaker than the alternative, portent. But again, that may be personal preference talking.

Citrus-God

06-08-2007, 01:29 AM

Uhh, most of the builds of UGW Thresh that I've seen lately run Mental Note and do not run Predict. These are wide spread builds that have had tourney sucess (to the best of my knowledge). My question is what about the differences between UGW and UGR make the respective decisions of the decks to run / not to run Mental Note correct?

Kronicler

umm.... how about this build...

// Piloted to a split at SCG Roanoke I believe
// Lands 17
3 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
3 Island

// Creatures 10
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Mystic Enforcer

// Spells 33
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Portent
4 Predict
3 Daze
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pithing Needle

// Sideboard 15
3 Loaming Shaman
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Naturalize
3 Hydroblast
3 Stifle

I made many Top 16s at tournaments with that build as well. So far, I know they have had tons of great success with this build, as well as the newer Red builds they're running.

BoardinCharlie

06-08-2007, 01:06 PM

umbowta

06-09-2007, 01:23 AM

My question is what about the differences between UGW and UGR make the respective decisions of the decks to run / not to run Mental Note correct?

Kronicler
In the case of UGW thresh, Mental Note can get you to threshold faster and help keep you there in the face of opposing yard hate. Predict cannot fill this same role. Predict works best with multiple setup cards. Lists that run Predict will tend to run the full complement of Brainstorms and Serum Visions as well as 2-4 Portent to be able to setup the top of the library. Lately I've even seen some lists using Sensei's Divining top over Portent.

In the current state of UGR thresh, Mental Note serves the same purpose as in UGW. It is my feeling that Mental Note in UGR is only necessary should one choose to run Werebears as well as Nimble Mongoose. The yard still needs to be filled to maximize those beatsticks.

If however one chooses to run/test the more recently suggested combination of Geese/Dryads/Goyfs, Mental Note becomes a lot less necessary and its inclusion is debatable. The Mongeese still like Mental Note, and Goyfs are okay with it dumping stuff into the yard too, but its lack of card selection can be replaced with Sleight of Hand, which is great with both Goyfs and Dryads, and is okay with Mongeese too.

Citrus-God

06-09-2007, 01:52 AM

Its been quite a bit since I posted back and it seems like thresh has morphed just a little but and has been given some nice new additions. I really like the addition of goyf, but I was wondering since goyf is not thresh dependant but type dependant has it waranted the addition of any of the seals (fire or primorium) in main or in board. Against goblins the fire kind of lets them calculate out dmg better, but then again it could be seen as more of an investment. Puttin in the one mana in early or when it is open allows for more mana to be used in critical turns.

I'd definitely run Seal of Primorium over Krosan Grip unless you expect a ton of Counterbalance.

Seal of Fire is alright. I wouldn't run it personally since I'd rather have the efficiency and quality of a certain card rather than run something to make the quality of a certain that is already good beeter (in this case, I'd rather have Bolt than Seal because Goyf is already good on it's own).

Against Goblins, if you feel that to win is to race them, MDed Pyroclasm is much better than Burn in this case. Outside of every other match up, you really dont need that much Burn to win unless you're taking a more aggressive direction with the deck.

Happy Gilmore

06-10-2007, 03:06 PM

In the case of UGW thresh, Mental Note can get you to threshold faster and help keep you there in the face of opposing yard hate. Predict cannot fill this same role. Predict works best with multiple setup cards. Lists that run Predict will tend to run the full complement of Brainstorms and Serum Visions as well as 2-4 Portent to be able to setup the top of the library. Lately I've even seen some lists using Sensei's Divining top over Portent.

I don't understand how Mental Note gets you to thresh and Predict does not. Predict puts 1 less card in the GY than Mental Note, and if you know the top card the third card is put into your hand instead. This can be even better at attaining thresh since you now have more cards in hand to do so. Predict fights Crypt alot better than mental note ever could. when facing a crypt that you cant answer with either Needle or counterspell it will take you alot longer to rebuild with MN than Predict because of the additional card advantage. The builds I've seen with MN run a max of 12-14 cantrips and if you start the rebuilding process with MN, you have to hope that the third care down is the cantrip and not the first two, otherwise you stop right there with 3 cards in the yard and some random card in hand. If you have Portent and Predict either in the top three or in your hand, you can dig 4 cards deep and cantrip multiple times, either that turn or the turn following. I've seen people have trouble rebuilding thresh with MN when they have to pitch blue cards to FoW as well. Blowing your load in the early game to get a turn 2-3 threshhold can be effective at times, but its important to factor in the various GY hate that will be thrown against Gro.

Chalice is also a major consideration. More and more decks are finding Chalice to be a very strong metagame call. There is an artifact agro deck for every single color (all with chalice MD), Goblins runs both Crypt AND Chalice post board, and this is all forgeting stax and 5/3. With a SDT in play turn one you can take control of the game without casting another 1cc spell. I have done this before with tarmogyf, counterspells (none of which are hit by CotV set at 1), and Predict. But the greatest reason in my mind for running Predict in my deck is the prospect of card advantage. Pyroclasm, Counterbalance, and ancient grudge are also excellent at this.

umbowta

06-10-2007, 11:00 PM

I don't understand how Mental Note gets you to thresh and Predict does not. ??? What I said was that Mental Note gets you to threshold faster. As you stated, "Predict puts 1 less card in the GY than Mental Note" to which I may add the fact that Predict costs :1::u: whereas Mental Note is :u: i.e., faster. Predict is more of a long term plan which is no less effective. The different approaches, MN or not MN was the focus, not their perceived validity.

jazzykat

06-11-2007, 12:05 AM

Citrus-God

06-11-2007, 12:44 AM

We have had a discussion about a more gro like deck over on TMD http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=33375

with regards to Sleight of Hand and other small variations to UGR thresh. I have found that goose, goyf, dryad, with sleight of hand over both predict and mental note (obviously thresh hold becomes less relevant) is AWESOME. Because if you drop a dryad and untap next turn with a cantrip you can normally chain cantrip into cantrip and go nuts with her.

My next experiment is to try a couple of Electrolyzes. While they are at the top of the curve they are brutal sources of card advantage, acting as removal and cantrip.

Predict is still good.... even without the need of Threshold. Predict synergizes with the cantrip chain and adds to the momentum.

Also, I've been working on a project for awhile, but I was keeping it down for awhile. I came to the conclusions that the deck was nutty-fun.

// Not Quite Thresh
// Lands 17
4 Flooded Strand
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
2 Island

// Creatures 10
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quirion Dryad
2 Fledgling Dragon

// Spells 33
4 Brainstorm
3 Portent
3 Serum Visions
3 Predict
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Pithing Needle

// Sideboard 15
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip
4 Pyroclasm
3 Counterbalance
2 Vedalken Shackles

So nutty awesome.... it's aggressive, and has a very slow but effective answer in the board, and with that cantrip set-up, I doubt it's slow.

jazzykat

06-11-2007, 01:24 AM

The only thing I am not sold on is Jitte with only 10 creatures. I have a love affair with Misdirection that goes back a long way and with all of your creatures Swordsable....

I love the inclusion of top in this deck. Even though you are tapping out a lot, all of the fetches make it silly.

Do you have trouble getting the mana up for the fledglings?

Citrus-God

06-11-2007, 01:54 AM

Happy Gilmore

06-11-2007, 11:27 AM

??? What I said was that Mental Note gets you to threshold faster. As you stated, "Predict puts 1 less card in the GY than Mental Note" to which I may add the fact that Predict costs :1::u: whereas Mental Note is :u: i.e., faster. Predict is more of a long term plan which is no less effective. The different approaches, MN or not MN was the focus, not their perceived validity.

And I think you skirted my point. I don't agree that MN gets you to threshold fasters simply because it adds one more card to the yard. Drawing an extra card that cantrips into better spells is a better overall plan, and it will support a mid to late game win. Going into the mid to late game is an inevitability in many matchups, cards like SDT and Predict give you the edge necessary to be affective from turn 1-infinity. A 3/3 Nimble Mongoose is a great card, but only counter magic is going to effectively stop the major threats in this format. Tarmogofy alone is a good reason not to run Mental Note. He can be a 4/5 or bigger with only three cards in the yard, and I would be extremely hesitant about taking the chance of milling one. The biggest mistake I see people make in both deck building and play is assuming you are the beat down in any given match up. Even against control decks I find that controlling their early development will allow me to take on the beat down role much more effectively in the mid to late game.

Attaining threshold should not be the first priority. Thesh/Gro wins when it can maintain the beat down roll for as long as possible. This is especially true for agro which has few control elements to stop your threats. By creating a situation where your beaters are backed up by counter magic, their outs are limited at best. In the old format cards like Nantuko Monastery were so potent against thresh (especially UGR) because it would prevent the deck from going beat down, and would allow Landstill to maintain both roles at the same time. Ideally the goal of thresh is to maintain both the beat down and controlling role in every match up.

Kronicler

06-12-2007, 01:46 AM

aTn

06-12-2007, 09:07 AM

I'm curious about your decklist (and I'd like to help concerning the 4th Daze etc.). Would it be possible to either post it or refer to a post in this thread where the decklist is present ?

Citrus-God

06-12-2007, 11:25 PM

So, after the mini debate I instigated on the last page, I decided to pick up Zur's list (provided by anti-american, thanks btw) and just test the shit out of it. I tested against gobos, Hooks, landstill, and solidarity, with pretty good results. The one thing I noticed though, was that I kept drawing pithing needle when what I needed was a threat. I decided to test 3 dryads in the place of needle and WOW, with 14 cantrips and the 4 bolts, those guys incredible. Right away they started winning games on their own, when needle would have been less than stellar, and even when I drew them late game, I could usually just keep cantripping and grow them pretty fast. After that change, the deck has been humming along beautifully. The last thing I'm trying to do is fit the 4th daze in. The problem with running 3 daze is that the chances of you seeing it when it is best, the very beginning of the game, are much lower than if you run 4. Daze is a card that, in my opinion, you run 4 or 0, so I'm trying to figure out how to fit that in. Any suggestions?

Kronicler

You cant fit in the 4th Daze that deck. It's a control deck at heart. If you want to squeeze the 4th Daze in, you have to run Roopey's Miracle Grow deck since creatures come out earlier.

In this deck, when opponents actually do play around Daze, it punishes them for it by drawing other things. Bardo's deck takes better advantage of Daze because it forces them to interact with your earlier than this deck. This deck just has Dazes because it needs protection for the first few turns.

Also, the 3rd Counterspell + 1 Forest + 3 Pithing Needles act somewhat like metagame slots. You bring that build to a general meta where Vial Goblins dominates. You switch those slots around for your meta if it's different.

BoardinCharlie

06-13-2007, 09:08 AM

Has combo been gaining popularity post flash banning? If so has stifle found a way to warrant itself into the main board of U/G/R Thresh?

Also I have seen that angel stompy with glowriders in board have been gaining some power...does anyone feel that Sulfur elemental could be added to stop MoR, Glowrider, and Soltari Priest?

Bahamuth

06-13-2007, 09:28 AM

There was 1 U/G/r Thresh deck in the top 8 of the Grand Prix. Link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gpcol07/welcome#6)
To me it looks like it has a really good combo matchup, and it was probably built that way.

Can I actually change the way the URL shows here?

Yes, don't use the quotes around the URL, and change the part inside the tags. I've fixed it for you ~ Nightmare

aTn

06-13-2007, 09:34 AM

If so has stifle found a way to warrant itself into the main board of U/G/R Thresh?

In my list of the aggro version of UGR-Thresh (similar to the GP Columbus 6th place list) I play 3 maindeck Stifles and one SB Stifle. I can't say for the control build, but in the aggro build Stifle is amazing. Against combo it (obviously) rocks (Stifle Empty the Warrens, Brainfreeze and even sometimes Belcher to buy one turn, etc.). Against Goblins, Stifling Ringleader, Matron, Siege-Gang, etc. can be a really good play. The bonus of making your manabase less vulnerable to Wasteland also helps (but then again you could just run more Needles so that's not a great point).

I tend to not like Stifle when facing control decks like Landstill (I prefer Needle for Mishra's Factory, Pernicious Deed, etc.); but then again, in a metagame filled with control, I'd rather play the UGR-Thresh control build with 3 Counterspell instead of 3 Stifle.

BoardinCharlie

06-13-2007, 10:40 AM

I was looking at that link more closely...it seems like B/W, Gobbos, and Flash were prevalent decks there. Was there any U/G/R Thresh...what were its numbers? From what I have play tested it seems like U/G/R Thresh would of done well ....pyroclasm would of ate up most of those B/W decks, well timed burn for removal against flash, and we all know the R thresh version does great against gobbos post board.

Was it just in lower numbers or bad pilots or am I missing something?

aTn

06-13-2007, 01:19 PM

@BoardinCharlie:

Paul Nicolo made 6th place at the GP with UGR-Thresh if I'm not mistaken. I guess your question was more about the proportion of UGR-Thresh in the metagame; it's pretty hard to estimate since, to my knowledge, there is no complete listing of the metagame anywhere.

Back to the discussion.

I don't get the opportunity to play the Fish match-up often and I'd like to know what answers to Grunt we have with UGR-Thresh. If it hits the board, I find the Bolt+Bolt or Bolt+Fire (or -insert other combination of two or more burn spells here-) plan a waste of resources and harder to accomplish (having the right combination of burn spells in hand). Engineered Explosives @ 2 seems decent but it's also a waste if they only have one Grunt on the board and no other creatures worth exploding, and it's a bit slow (4 mana). We can always Stifle its cumulative upkeep if it threatens threshold or Goyf's power, but that just delays the problem for a turn. Countering it before it hits the board seems like our most solid option (siding in Spell Snare helps towards that end). Any thoughts ?

Citrus-God

06-13-2007, 01:57 PM

Has combo been gaining popularity post flash banning? If so has stifle found a way to warrant itself into the main board of U/G/R Thresh?

It can be done, however, Stifle isnt a long term card unless you're up against Combo or Vial Goblins. If you're going to run Stifles, run cards that are aggressive like Mental Note, or Stifles can just serve as metagame slots in certain metas if you're leaning towards a slower direction in the deck.

BoardinCharlie

06-13-2007, 04:46 PM

@aTn

Previously when this deck had run Fledgeling it sided out them and a single burn spell for 3 FTK's or you could possibly go for a pro red route to block/dodge grunt, mage, swords, and MoR *kind of*.

Pro White Creatures:
Defender of Chaos- 2R
2/1 Flash
Pro White

Wildfire Emissary: 3R
2/4 Pro White
1R: +1/0
*old school*

Blood Knight- RR
2/2 First Strike
Pro White

Or you could play Ground Seal so they can't target cards in graveyards and you will get the card replaced right away.

None of these are excellent solutions but they are decent. I would think overall FTK is the best...but its pricey thats for sure...the plus side is only 1 R in its cc.

Happy Gilmore

06-13-2007, 08:50 PM

It can be done, however, Stifle isnt a long term card unless you're up against Combo or Vial Goblins. If you're going to run Stifles, run cards that are aggressive like Mental Note, or Stifles can just serve as metagame slots in certain metas if you're leaning towards a slower direction in the deck.

I'm very confused, how does stifle coexist better with fast cards (I use the term loosely) like Mental Note? And even against goblins Stifle is too weak, that’s why I cut it from my board. Stifling SGC/Ringleader's CIP ability is great and all, but it still leaves them with a 2/2. Counterspell would be infinitely better in that situation.

Citrus-God

06-14-2007, 03:35 AM

I'm very confused, how does stifle coexist better with fast cards (I use the term loosely) like Mental Note?

Because Stifling a fetch is close to worthless at times. You really need to capitalize on it fast, whereas with slower builds of Thresh, it would much rather have something else.

And even against goblins Stifle is too weak, that’s why I cut it from my board. Stifling SGC/Ringleader's CIP ability is great and all, but it still leaves them with a 2/2. Counterspell would be infinitely better in that situation.

I might be wrong there. Hey, at least Stifle hits Crypts, of course, having 5 answers to Vials and 3 answers to Crypts should be good enough.

Happy Gilmore

06-14-2007, 10:53 AM

Because Stifling a fetch is close to worthless at times. You really need to capitalize on it fast, whereas with slower builds of Thresh, it would much rather have something else.

I might be wrong there. Hey, at least Stifle hits Crypts, of course, having 5 answers to Vials and 3 answers to Crypts should be good enough.

Stifling Crypt can be good, but post board against goblins Ancent Grudge is possibly your best spell. It hits, Chalice/Vial and forces them to use crypt early and then you still have the flashback left over. I desperately wish there was room for a third one in the board but I can't bring myself to cut anything right now.

SB:15
3 Countrol Magic
3 Counterbalance
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip
4 Pyroclasm

The only real option is to run the third Top in the main. I think ObfuscateFreely tested it pre-future sight but it might be better with Tarmogyf in the deck.

Citrus-God

06-14-2007, 07:02 PM

Stifling Crypt can be good, but post board against goblins Ancent Grudge is possibly your best spell. It hits, Chalice/Vial and forces them to use crypt early and then you still have the flashback left over. I desperately wish there was room for a third one in the board but I can't bring myself to cut anything right now.

SB:15
3 Countrol Magic
3 Counterbalance
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip
4 Pyroclasm

The only real option is to run the third Top in the main. I think ObfuscateFreely tested it pre-future sight but it might be better with Tarmogyf in the deck.

I think the 3rd Top in te Main can be done, but will probably weaken the power of this deck's opening hand, especially against faster decks.

Also, I agree, Ancent Grudge > Stifle. Stifle is only good against combo nowadays, and there are better cards in the deck for Combo. I wasnt too specific when I talked about Stifle against Goblins. When I said 5 answers to Vial and 3 to Crypt, I was refering to Grudge and Needle, not Stifle.

I also saw ObFreely's list from the DLD. Are you guys running a 4/2 split right now?

Liek

06-15-2007, 03:12 AM

I don't get the opportunity to play the Fish match-up often and I'd like to know what answers to Grunt we have with UGR-Thresh. If it hits the board, I find the Bolt+Bolt or Bolt+Fire (or -insert other combination of two or more burn spells here-) plan a waste of resources and harder to accomplish (having the right combination of burn spells in hand). Engineered Explosives @ 2 seems decent but it's also a waste if they only have one Grunt on the board and no other creatures worth exploding, and it's a bit slow (4 mana). We can always Stifle its cumulative upkeep if it threatens threshold or Goyf's power, but that just delays the problem for a turn. Countering it before it hits the board seems like our most solid option (siding in Spell Snare helps towards that end). Any thoughts ?

We don't need a card to beat Jotun Grunt, besides the Spell Snares that should already be somewhere in the 75. It's not too difficult to play around. If it comes down early stop playing cantrips and let it attack twice. It can't sit back and block, it'll just die. If it comes down later, Quirion Dryad pushes it around, and we can hold a few cantrips and thresh up after it goes away. It's fairly simple to race. Tarmogoyf and Qurion Dryad both win a fight against it.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Stifling its ability will cause nothing to happen. C. Upkeep appears to be one triggered ability each turn, so Stifling it won't add an age counter and won't cause any cards to be return to library. I could be wrong, please correct me if I am.

I really urge everybody to play Stifles in this deck for the Goblin matchup, among other things. Goblins wins by tempoing us out, Stifle is the best way to keep up. It protects our fragile manabase, and can stop their development. Even if Stifling a Ringleader's trigger leaves them with a 2/2, it's still a pretty good answer to a Goblin Ringleader, and if we can't beat the 2/2 that remains, something else is wrong. Maybe one game out of twenty Stifle won't have a target, but many many more games than that a Counterspell will sit in hand and be too slow.

Citrus-God

06-15-2007, 03:20 AM

We don't need a card to beat Jotun Grunt, besides the Spell Snares that should already be somewhere in the 75. It's not too difficult to play around. If it comes down early stop playing cantrips and let it attack twice. It can't sit back and block, it'll just die. If it comes down later, Quirion Dryad pushes it around, and we can hold a few cantrips and thresh up after it goes away. It's fairly simple to race.

I agree. You dont need anything to stop Grunt, because you will outrace him with Goyfs and/or Dryads anyway. Goose is the only thing that is taking a huge hit.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Stifling its ability will cause nothing to happen. C. Upkeep appears to be one triggered ability each turn, so Stifling it won't add an age counter and won't cause any cards to be return to library. I could be wrong, please correct me if I am.

It's right. I know Hanni does it a lot with WUB Fish, and buys an extra attack step with Grunt all the time.

I really urge everybody to play Stifles in this deck for the Goblin matchup, among other things. Goblins wins by tempoing us out, Stifle is the best way to keep up. It protects our fragile manabase, and can stop their development. Even if Stifling a Ringleader's trigger leaves them with a 2/2, it's still a pretty good answer to a Goblin Ringleader, and if we can't beat the 2/2 that remains, something else is wrong. Maybe one game out of twenty Stifle won't have a target, but many many more games than that a Counterspell will sit in hand and be too slow.

ehh... Stifles could be worth the slots in a metagame full of Combo and Goblins. Against Goblins, I would much rather have Pyroclasm. Everytime TES wins agianst me from my perspective is through Empty the Warrens, not Tendrils of Agony. Pyroclasm not only answers tokens, but kills Swarms. Against Goblins, it doesnt need to be timing specific and forces them to recover quickly when being pressure by 2-3 guys (which means you assumed dominant position).

I may be wrong with Stifle here, but I see Clasm being more amazing in that slot.

Hanni

06-15-2007, 03:46 AM

I find Rolling Earthquake infinitely better than Pyroclasm because it can turn around and act as reach against board control or whatever... and it rewards you for getting land flooded, which is always nice since land floods usually suck (unless you're up against LD). It might hurt a little to take 2 damage off of Earthquake vs a deck like Goblins, but it's usually not a problem since you want to be playing the beatdown anyway (and if ur casting R Quake for 2, chances are you're winning anyway). The extra 1cc to cast may also be a little problematic, but it's still only 1 red source and it's alot more useful overall IMO. Against a deck like TES, it effectively does the same thing as Pyroclasm for the same price.

I like this cantrip setup:

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand

With this burn setup:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
2 Rolling Earthquake

However, that's personal prefence. I already know no one on here, besides maybe Jazzy Kat, likes Sleight of Hand.

As I've said, my prefered creature base is:

4 Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wee Dragonauts

But a creature base of the following seems extremely strong too:

4 Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quirion Dryad

I'm also torn between countermagic setups. Stifle improves the combo matchup, even though the clock should be blazingly fast, but I never seem to find myself needed additional strength vs Goblins with the red splash with 2 MD R Quakes (and 2 SB), whereas Stifle sucks vs the white splash of Thresh and Counterspell is extremely strong vs them.

I prefer Sleight of Hand in the versions with Dryad or Dragonauts because it helps chain cantrips. I tried Mental Note so many times and I really hate it. All it does is establish Threshold faster. I mean, yea it's nice to cast Mental Note after a Brainstorm if you don't have a fetch... but all it is, is a blind cantrip. The lack of card quality, especially in decks only running 4/4/4 Brainstorm/Visions/Note w/o Magma Jet, seriously lacks in card quality. Both Portent and Sleight of Hand are far better options for card quality, where Sleight of Hand gives the card immediately in order to chain spells for the Grow creatures. Personal preference I suppose. It also gives the deck additional sorceries, since the deck seems to lack sorceries far more compared to instants (all the burn besides R Quake is instant, the countermagic is instant, and you're only sorcery speed cantrip in the Mental Note version is Serum Visions).

Again, that's all personal preference.

On a sidenote, Jotun Grunt is definitely a problem vs Thresh even with Tarmogoyf and even Dryad too, at least coming from Fish. It doesn't matter if it's white splash or red splash (especially since StP gets named with Mage against the white splash). Nearly every game where I resolve a Grunt, I've won the match. The best answer, aside from StP I suppose, that my opponent's have been able to fight through Grunt, they either had triple Goyf with both graveyards being full of tons of stuff, or they popped EE for 2 and then dropped a Goyf.

BoardinCharlie

06-15-2007, 11:06 AM

As Hanni and a few other people said, and which I agree, Grunt is a problem. Specially since they can pick which cards get put back into a players deck. Goyf is what could stop it, but when they are choosing what to reshuffle I see there being a problem. There will be few creatures in our own yard as is so targeting enough to shrink goyf down to 3/4 wont be too much of a problem. We will mostly have instant, sorcery, land...but creature, enchantment, and artifacts will be in very low numbers.

In my opinion grunt is an issue since it stops our plan in multiple ways. Anyone thought about answers posted previously? *Pro white/FTK*

aTn

06-15-2007, 11:45 AM

I agree that Grunt is a problem if you don't run Mental Note (I'm testing Sleigh of Hand in the M.Note slots). Until now, I'd say Spell Snare and EE@2 are my best answers.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Stifling its ability will cause nothing to happen. C. Upkeep appears to be one triggered ability each turn, so Stifling it won't add an age counter and won't cause any cards to be return to library. I could be wrong, please correct me if I am.

I'm pretty sure you are right. I agree with Liek that Stifle is very important in the Goblins match-up, I seriously wouldn't want Couterspell in its place.

@BoardinCharlie: I don't like the 3 and 4 cc sideboard suggestions you made (mana cost is too high for my taste - K. Grip costs 3 but it's Split Second...). Ground Seal doesn't seem to work because Grunt's upkeep cost doesn't target cards in the grave. As for Blood Knight, maybe, but I can't get used to the idea of having him in my SB (and paying RR); he seems like a card you'd side-in in only a few match-ups.

BoardinCharlie

06-15-2007, 02:48 PM

I thought how Cumulative upkeep worked is:

1) First an age counter is put on
2)then you decide whether or not to pay the upkeep

So the opponent would put on the age counter then choose whether or not to pay the upkeep. So you could stifle one turns trigger of the activation so the next turn it may be to much for them to be able to reshuffle?

This was the debate with that vexing sphinx card...you could put the age counter on, then not pay the upkeep and still draw a card or whatever.

Am I wrong?

aTn

06-15-2007, 03:41 PM

Cumulative upkeep-Put two cards in a single graveyard on the bottom of their owner's library.

The definition of cumulative upkeep:

At the beginning of your upkeep, put an age counter on this permanent, then sacrifice it unless you pay its upkeep cost for each age counter on it.

The effect triggers at the beginning of the upkeep of Grunt's controller. When it's on the stack, you can Stifle it. If the effect resolves (for example, if you choose not to Stifle it or if you cast Stifle and it gets countered), then the owner of Grunt will put a counter and have to pay the upkeep cost; if the effect doesn't resolve, he doesn't put a counter and doesn't have to pay the upkeep cost.

Anarky87

06-18-2007, 01:53 AM

Citrus-God

06-18-2007, 06:39 AM

So what does the Hatfield version of this deck looks like now? I know everyone is caught up with the Dryad, but I was extensively testing the UGR Top/Counterbalance version before Flash and I was curious as to whether there were any updates on the deck. Like Spell Snare instead of Counterspell, MD Stifle or no, that sorta thing.

Counterspell is actually a good card in Hatfield Thresh. I'm sure you understand that that this deck loves to beat Goblins. Counterspell is one the the reasons why you have such an edge against Goblins. Stifles are good, but everyone said that Stifle isnt that strong of an answer to Goblins, and is only good against Combo. Of course, now, in this day and age, Pyroclasm is ironically strong against Combo as well as Counterbalance.

The changes to the Hatfield deck should probably be swapping Bears for Goyfs. I PMed Zur awhile back about changes made to the deck, and he said that running Bears in the Dragon slot as a meta choice isnt bad since it will give you a better game against Goblins.

Verbal Warning for referring to Tarmogoyf as McQueen. I'm serious, stop using pet names. It's confusing and unnecessary. ~ Nightmare

troopatroop

06-18-2007, 11:51 AM

Counterspell is actually a good card in Hatfield Thresh. I'm sure you understand that that this deck loves to beat Goblins. Counterspell is one the the reasons why you have such an edge against Goblins. Stifles are good, but everyone said that Stifle isnt that strong of an answer to Goblins, and is only good against Combo. Of course, now, in this day and age, Pyroclasm is ironically strong against Combo as well as Counterbalance.

The changes to the Hatfield deck should probably be swapping Bears for McQueens (Goyfs). I PMed Zur awhile back about changes made to the deck, and he said that running Bears in the Dragon slot as a meta choice isnt bad since it will give you a better game against Goblins.

I completely disagree. Counterspells are really bad against goblins. Stifle at least counters Fact or Fiction and tempos you into the game.

B4L4

06-18-2007, 12:18 PM

Hum, vs gobbo, Counterspell can be useful:
If Gob hasn't resolved an Aether Vial
If their Wastes don't hurt your UU in manabase
If you answer Lackey, via FoW/Daze or burn, or if you have enough mana to play a creature to block Lackey + to keep UU open to counter one of their spells

So, I'd rather have a Stifle in this MU:
Protect from Wasteland, broken Matron/Ringleader/Siege Gang/Incinerator trigger, for one less mana than CS.

And if you say that Stifle leaves them with a 1/1 or 2/2, if you can't blast it/ have a bigger creature at this moment of the game, then you will probably lose, even if this Stifle would have been CS.

Stifle at least counters Fact or Fiction and tempos you into the game??

noobslayer

06-18-2007, 12:36 PM

He's referring to the ringleader activation.

As far as Quirion Dryad goes, my testing shows he's hit and miss, Wearbear may be better, but I'm not so sure yet.

Happy Gilmore

06-18-2007, 02:11 PM

I completely disagree. Counterspells are really bad against goblins. Stifle at least counters Fact or Fiction and tempos you into the game.

You want to run that by me again? How the heck does stifle counter fact or fiction? And what does tempo you in the game mean? If anything stifling a Ringleader instead of countering it is a lose of tempo. The fact that they don't get to use the ability is irrelevant, they would still gain card advantage over you. Stifle was in my sb for some time before I switched to Counterbalance and I have never used it to counter a Wasteland, the card is simply too weak to be MD.

I can tell you from experience in the goblins matchup that Counterspell is essential. Pithing Needle is better at stopping the other threats such as crypts/Vial/Waste/Port than Stifle. It is important to build the maindeck to face many different matchups and Counterspell in never a dead card (Ichorid is an exception).

Volt

06-18-2007, 04:40 PM

You want to run that by me again? How the heck does stifle counter fact or fiction?

Fact or Fiction = Goblin Ringleader.

I don't think Counterspell is particularly good against Goblins. They're always one of the first things I side out.

Happy Gilmore

06-18-2007, 05:18 PM

Fact or Fiction = Goblin Ringleader.

I don't think Counterspell is particularly good against Goblins. They're always one of the first things I side out.

If your coming from the perspective of CounterSliver, then yes. But Thresh is a completely different beast altogether. And just because they both cost 4 does not mean that they are comparable. Lets say for a second that you could stifle FoF, then it would technically counter the spell completely. But if the same was done to Ringleader that still leaves a 2/2 hasty body. You are going to create card disadvantage by using stifle on Ringleader, the same goes for SGC.

I still have not heard a valid reason for running Stifle over Counterspell in the MD. You can argue that it might be better in certain matchups, but then I wonder how much of they field you assume will be the matchup in question. Even if Goblins represents 20% of the field there is a chance of not facing it in a 5-7 round tournament. I also don't agree with the assessment that Stifle is better than Counterspell against goblins anyway. What does it actually do for you? This question still has not been answered. My experience with Grow/Thresh has shown stifle to be a waste of SB slots because better options can be found for the matchups it is needed in.

What the hell do you do against opponents playing Chalice? You lose, that’s what, because all but 13 spells in your deck are 1cc (assuming you’re running mental Note too). You only have 4 hard counters to answer the Chalice and if it sticks....you have exactly 6 creatures with which to win the game. When your opponent is playing loam and they cast DD, you have to have the FoW or you lose.

Stifle makes your good matchups better, and your bad matchups even worse. Thanks but no thanks.

B4L4

06-18-2007, 05:46 PM

cm'on let's play your predict, CS, counterbalance build against gobbo, and die to it, that's symply too slow

I've test a good amount of game vs gob with a build that run 2stifle and 2CS, in i rarely cast CS against gobbo, but stifle is MVP (and i board CS , and keep stifle g2...)
It allow silly trick like stifling a gemmpalm while goblin player is trying to trade 2-3 goblin for your tarmogoyf, protect your red source from waste, ect

If u want to answer chalice, play 3 ancient grudge sb, anway u need them against stack, gob, FS, WW, pox style deck
It will answer vial and chalice post board vs gob

Again, if u die to an unaswered 2/2, then u die to all sort of aggro...

Actually, vs combo decks of the format, stifle > counterspell (EtW, ToA), and, its maybe also true vs solidarity, cause stifling a fetch is timewalk here, where counterspell can be very loosy if they buy engouh time to go to turn 6-7, cause they gonna dominate the stacks

U can consider that stifle over CS make the bad matchup that control is even worst(@landstill ), but i think is play style difference here, against countrol, both CS and stifle can make me happy, cause i don't want to enter the late game, and both can be considered as cheap aswers against control
For example on a deed, CS make control waste 3 mana, stifle make them spend 3 + 1-2 to kill your creature, here stifle > CS
stifle buy u 1 attack step vs nantuko monastery (u are unlucky if they can activate it twice (need GGWW)

but okay, CS > stifle on wrath, fact...

aTn

06-18-2007, 05:50 PM

What the hell do you do against opponents playing Chalice? You lose, that’s what, because all but 13 spells in your deck are 1cc.

Pre-board I might agree, post-board you have Spell Snare (CotV@1), Ancient Grudge and Krosan Grip. People in my meta don't play Faerie Stompy that much and the CotV I see are sided-in (usually by Goblins players). If people start playing a lot of CotV maindeck, I'll revert to Counterspell (or Spell Snare) in the Stifle slots. Since I see Goblins and ETW.dec a lot in my meta (Cret Belcher and sometimes TES), I'll keep the Stifle MD for now.

P.S.: I play the aggro version of UGR-Thresh (see Liek's list) so I don't like not being able to cast a creature just to keep UU available during my opponents turn.

Anarky87

06-18-2007, 06:09 PM

cm'on let's play your predict, CS, counterbalance build against gobbo, and die to it, that's symply too slow

But why are you MD'ing Counterbalance? I don't even play it MD, it's only from the SB, and if you're bring that it against Goblins...just....why? Hello, Pyroclasm?? I play Predict and Counterspell in my build and it works just fine against Goblins, so I don't know where that's coming from.

I agree that Stifle is a neat card and can be pretty powerful in a lot of cases. But I've since moved away from it, as I haven't really found the need for it in Thresh, as Top/Counterbalance just shut out combo and is amazing in the mirror as well, something that Stifle can't say.

B4L4

06-18-2007, 06:18 PM

But why are you MD'ing Counterbalance?

I am not playing MD couterbalance, i just name counterbalance with all the cards i consider too slow against goblin..

P.S.: I play the aggro version of UGR-Thresh (see Liek's list) so I don't like not being able to cast a creature just to keep UU available during my opponents turn. +1

Happy Gilmore

06-19-2007, 09:50 AM

aTn

06-19-2007, 12:24 PM

You only need one creature to win, just one. Saying you dislike Counterspell because it doesn't allow you to drop a creature that turn is flawed logic.

Anyhow... you obviously play the control version of UGR-Thresh. I have no problem with that, I like that version and play it sometimes when my meta calls for it. What I'm saying (and I might not have been clear) is:

1) I prefer Stifle over Counterspell in the aggro version of UGR-Thresh (for example Liek's list);
2) I prefer Counterspell over Stifle in the control version of UGR-Thresh (for example Zur's list).

You can have all 4 tarmogyfs out against goblins and still lose. If you can’t stop certain threats on the stack you’re screwed.

I fail to see a point here... (and I agree with you).

Stifle is cute but will never answer the threats in Goblins. Without Counterspell or Predict Goblins will bury you in card advantage.

This is speculation, not a fact. Liek's record (and my record) against Goblins tend to show your statement is false. (Stifle Ringleader, Stifle Matron doesn't stop card advantage ?!?!?).

P.S.: Stop acting like the inquisition. I don't want to impose my card choices on anybody; I'm not trying to keep you in a corner with no air.

I dislike Counterspell in the aggro build. I like being able to cast Dryad and Goyf early in the game since... heh... I'm playing the aggro build. I also like to be able to cast one of these creatures and still be able to respond to activated or triggered abilities by having only U open (Ringleader, Matron, Fetchland, Wasteland, Vial, etc.).

B4L4

06-19-2007, 03:14 PM

You only need one creature to win, just one
Hum, vs gob (with aggro build), I am really happy when I manage to play 2-3 creatures which are bigger than those gobbos.
You can really win the game by playing the beatdown role, then in the last "hot" turns, keep your mongoose for defense to block a lethal Piledriver, and keep putting pressure with a big Dryad / Goyf.

If you are in this board dominant position, you really don't care to let a 2/2 body without ability resolve.

But my build with 8 blast, 11 creatures and 2 Stifle is probably the reason why I choose this way to beat goblins.

I fixed your post before because I know English is not your first language. I fixed it this time, because I'm already editing your post. Next time, please utilize proper spelling and punctuation, or I'll begin issuing infractions. Please review the rules of this forum (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/announcement.php?f=23).

~ Nightmare

troopatroop

06-19-2007, 03:31 PM

You only need one creature to win, just one. Saying you dislike Counterspell because it doesn't allow you to drop a creature that turn is flawed logic. You can have all 4 tarmogyfs out against goblins and still lose. If you can’t stop certain threats on the stack you’re screwed. Goblins is going to block only what they need to live then they are going to crash in for huge amounts of damage. Then, once they have you on defense they can take their time and wear you down. If you simply answer the SGC or Ringleader with a Counterspell you can save a lot of hassle. Stifle is cute but will never answer the threats in Goblins. Without Counterspell or Predict Goblins will bury you in card advantage.

What I was saying was, what the hell does Counterspell do against Goblins biggest threats to you? Lackey and Vial. Stifle will ALWAYS stop Ringleader from working, but if they're cheating it into play with Vial or Lackey, Counterspell is garbage and they get an uncounterable Fact or Fiction. I would much much rather deal with the 2/2 Goblin and have a guaranteed way to stop the activation than hold back twice the mana and pray they have a bad draw.

The threat in Goblins is it's ability to come back randomly through silly tricks. Stifle neuters their ability to do that, and let's you play a fair game.

Citrus-God

06-19-2007, 10:43 PM

What I was saying was, what the hell does Counterspell do against Goblins biggest threats to you?

What? SCG and Ringleader. At least Counterspell doesnt let those creatures stick around. I remember back in the era of Werebears, a Stifled SCG will still sac Gobs to kill shit. I never like this. At the very least, Counterspell also counters the bigger stuff like Chalice.

Lackey and Vial. Stifle will ALWAYS stop Ringleader from working, but if they're cheating it into play with Vial or Lackey, Counterspell is garbage and they get an uncounterable Fact or Fiction.

Then you should've lost if Vial resolves and has 4 counters on it in the first place. Doesnt matter. It'll topdeck the stupidest shit ever and just pump out SCGs, Matrons, and other Ringleaders. In short, your fucked no matter what you do if they have so many outs against you.

I would much much rather deal with the 2/2 Goblin and have a guaranteed way to stop the activation than hold back twice the mana and pray they have a bad draw.

When you play Hatfield Thresh, you tend to have more lands out, and more cards in hand. Thansk to 14 1cc cantrips, you can consistently make land drops if you chained cantrips until you feel that making land drops become pointless to your game plan. Besides, you arent going to tap out often as you should unless you cast a cantrip or a threat, but then again, you are playing a deck that specializes in free counters and seeing excess amounts of cards early in the game.

The threat in Goblins is it's ability to come back randomly through silly tricks. Stifle neuters their ability to do that, and let's you play a fair game.

Not silly tricks, crazy topdecks and nutty synergy. Stifle doesnt let you play a fair game, Pithing Needle does.

mikekelley

06-19-2007, 10:51 PM

I just want to add a vote for stifle in the main.

Pretty much every matchup that card has a use. And Stifling a fetch is great. Hearing your opponent groan when you stifle his fetch, you know he kept a one land hand and he's fucked.

And I HATE spell snare.

...playing against it, that is. Great card. Good choice. Lots of stuff in the current meta costs 2. Solid choice.

Edit:

I'd probably side it out in the goblins match, circumstances depending, however. Depending on the build, you know? If it is green, i'd leave them in to deal with that pesky son of a bitch hooligan on my needles (set to vial/port) etc.

Citrus-God

06-19-2007, 11:01 PM

I just want to add a vote for stifle in the main.

Pretty much every matchup that card has a use. And Stifling a fetch is great. Hearing your opponent groan when you stifle his fetch, you know he kept a one land hand and he's fucked.

Problem is, against decks that are good at drawing/finding land, you'd much rather Counter a threat. Tarmogoyfs are becoming popular, so why dont you try and find ways to win the board domination war?

And I HATE spell snare.

...playing against it, that is. Great card. Good choice. Lots of stuff in the current meta costs 2. Solid choice.

In metagames where Goblins doesnt exist, or is in small numbers, I actually believe that Spell Snares are very good, and would more likely run them over Counterspells/Stifles.

luka66_6

06-20-2007, 03:55 AM

I would like to ask has any one used Careful Study in Mental Note slot-s? I mean it is a sorcery, but it digs two cards deep and it gives us 3 cards in yard and lets us get rid of not needed lands in hand. (not very often, but still) Thoughts?

Hummingbird TG

06-20-2007, 04:48 AM

Careful Consideration is blatant Card Disadvantage. Fullstop.

luka66_6

06-20-2007, 04:59 AM

Careful Consideration
I was talking about:
Careful Study (Odyssey)
U, Sorcery
Draw two cards, then discard two cards.
Careful Study (http://magiccards.info/od/en/70.html)

kicks_422

06-20-2007, 08:03 AM

Still.

I think this card was brought up a few pages back. It's a big no. You can oitch dead cards to it, but you shouldn't have dead cards in your hand in the first place with all the library manipulation.

Lego

06-20-2007, 10:41 AM

I was talking about:
Careful Study (Odyssey)
U, Sorcery
Draw two cards, then discard two cards.
Careful Study (http://magiccards.info/od/en/70.html)

The major problem with the spell is that it's card disadvantage. After casting it and drawing, you end up with -1 card in hand. That's the absolute last thing you want from your cantrips. Add to that the fact that it's a sorcery, and it's out of the question.

I have been thinking about Mental Note though. I'm playing Mad Zur's build, with Predict, Brainstorm, Portent, and 2 Serum Visions, 2 Tops, and I've joined the rest of the world in replacing Werebear with Goyf. I was wondering if anyone had tested Mental Note alongside Goyf. It seems like it could be pretty intense, although I'm not sure losing selection is worth it.

luka66_6

06-20-2007, 10:53 AM

Yes, I see the error of my way now. (I have read what it has been said about Careful Study in UBW ***** therad) but I would realy like to change Mental Note, because I do not like blind dumps in yard.

Cantrips in my deck:
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
3 Mental Note

Would it be ok to change Mental Note-s in to Serum Visions? I would play 4 of them cutting one of my Daze-s (so I would have 3 of them).

noobslayer

06-20-2007, 11:08 AM

I'd full out go against running less than twelve cantrips. Less than that and you can't reliably hope on getting the lands you need.

luka66_6

06-20-2007, 11:11 AM

I'd full out go against running less than twelve cantrips. Less than that and you can't reliably hope on getting the lands you need.
Well I do run 3x Magma Jet. It is not a cantrip but it helps allot. Thinking of having 4 of them and only 2 fire/ice-s.

Happy Gilmore

06-20-2007, 12:23 PM

This is speculation, not a fact. Liek's record (and my record) against Goblins tend to show your statement is false. (Stifle Ringleader, Stifle Matron doesn't stop card advantage ?!?!?).

I have been playing thresh/Grow at major tournaments since the Big Arse 2 almost two years ago. I have tested many of the cards that can be used it the deck the same as everyone else. I am not questioning your results so you should not question mine. I am simply stating these facts about the particular card in question:

1. Stifle will never ever generate card advantage against Goblins. By definition any card that stays in play gives you +1 card advantage. Playing it from your hand gives you -1. Therefore, every permanent you play is card parity assuming it stays in play. Stopping the triggers with Stifle generates card advantage for the opponent because they are still left with the 2/2 or 1/1 that can impact the game state.

2. Stifle makes your good matchups better and your bad matchups worse. It is worse against control, artifact based decks with Chalice, decks with big fat, reanimator, and Loam based decks. It is arguably better against TES/Iggy Pop/Belcher/and various other combo decks.

Having a good record is irrelevant to the point, how is Stifle better than Counterspell if it can't actually answer threats?

Adan

06-20-2007, 12:53 PM

Well, from now on, Flash is banned, so I'm asking myself why you should run Stifle in the Maindeck?

I don't think it's useful to play Stifle.

Well, "my" buiild looks like this:

// Lands
2 [RAV] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [R] Volcanic Island
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
3 [GP] Burning-Tree Shaman
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
1 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [AT] Lightning Bolt
3 [FD] Magma Jet
2 [GP] Repeal
4 [OD] Predict
4 [5E] Portent

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [DIS] Loaming Shaman
SB: 2 [9E] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

I just play 8 free counters.
Generally, you got 3 free slots which you can change how you like.

In my case, i play 2 Repeals and 1 Shoal. Normally you play 3 Counterspells, but it depends on your Meta. Maybe you can play more Burn or want to maindeck Needles.

I think my build is more independant from Threshold. And some of you should at least test Burning-Tree Shaman before judging him.

But hey, you also got a free choice of what creatures you want to play. Sea Drakes could also be a choice. He has also got synergy with Brainstorm and so on.

Happy Gilmore

06-20-2007, 05:58 PM

Well, from now on, Flash is banned, so I'm asking myself why you should run Stifle in the Maindeck?

I don't think it's useful to play Stifle.

Well, "my" buiild looks like this:

// Lands
2 [RAV] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [R] Volcanic Island
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
3 [GP] Burning-Tree Shaman
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
1 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [AT] Lightning Bolt
3 [FD] Magma Jet
2 [GP] Repeal
4 [OD] Predict
4 [5E] Portent

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [b] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [b] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [DIS] Loaming Shaman
SB: 2 [9E] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

I just play 8 free counters.
Generally, you got 3 free slots which you can change how you like.

In my case, i play 2 Repeals and 1 Shoal. Normally you play 3 Counterspells, but it depends on your Meta. Maybe you can play more Burn or want to maindeck Needles.

I think my build is more independant from Threshold. And some of you should at least test Burning-Tree Shaman before judging him.

But hey, you also got a free choice of what creatures you want to play. Sea Drakes could also be a choice. He has also got synergy with Brainstorm and so on.

Your build is interesting, has Burning Tree Shaman been good for you? I'm trying to figure out how you support all your 2cc spells with only 8 cantrips and 16 lands, it seems a little on the low side. But then again, I can't say I've ever been balzy enough to try it (16 lands that is).

Liek

06-21-2007, 06:51 AM

1. Stifle will never ever generate card advantage against Goblins. By definition any card that stays in play gives you +1 card advantage. Playing it from your hand gives you -1. Therefore, every permanent you play is card parity assuming it stays in play. Stopping the triggers with Stifle generates card advantage for the opponent because they are still left with the 2/2 or 1/1 that can impact the game state.

This is silly. Stifle never generates card advantage. It's a tempo card.

NQN

06-21-2007, 08:52 AM

In the past i just loved the Tree Shaman but since I tested Senseis Divining TOp
one time, i just kicked him out!

georgjorge

06-21-2007, 09:30 AM

I have been having much success with UGr Threshold - the only problematic matchup is the Control one. I seem to lose to both Stax and Landstill builds far more often than I win...any advice which cards I could board here (though I am already boarding in eight or nine cards - Needle, Stifle, Counterspell, Grip, Grudge) ?

Adan

06-21-2007, 09:31 AM

In the past i just loved the Tree Shaman but since I tested Senseis Divining TOp
one time, i just kicked him out!

Burning Tree Shaman obviously sucks with Sensei's Divining Top, no doubt :laugh:
No, but here in the "european" Metage he proves to be good since there was a lot of Threshold, Landstill and Rifter. He does extradamae without doing anything.

That your Fetchlands will hurt you more won't matter since you only play 6 of them.
Additionaly, he's 3/4 for CC3 and independant from threshold.

Ah, and even now he yould be useful since everyone begins to play SDT.

aTn

06-21-2007, 10:06 AM

I have been playing thresh/Grow at major tournaments since the Big Arse 2 almost two years ago. I have tested many of the cards that can be used it the deck the same as everyone else. I am not questioning your results so you should not question mine.

I did not question your results (sorry if anything sounded that way, but frankly I can't really see what could lead you to that).

Stifle will never ever generate card advantage against Goblins.

True, but I don't think it is card advantage that makes the aggro version of UGR-Thresh win against Goblins. With Stifle, we can play UGR-Thresh with an aggro tempo. Its 1cc permits you to cast creatures early on while still being able to disrupt, burn the player, remove opposing creatures, etc. while keeping your opponent on his toes. Stifle has the added bonus that, when playing only 12 cantrips (as opposed to 16 in Zur's list), you can prevent manascrew (and hence not loose tempo) by Stifling Wasteland. With only 12 cantrips, its harder to manage getting UU without having to slow down your business for a turn. Note: I usually side-out my 3 MD Stifles for game 2-3 against Goblins in favor of +1 Needle, +4 Pyroclasm, +2 Ancient Grudge.

Stifle (...) It is worse against control, artifact based decks with Chalice, decks with big fat, reanimator, and Loam based decks. It is arguably better against TES/Iggy Pop/Belcher/and various other combo decks.

It is way better than Counterspell against Cret Belcher (which often puts turn 1 pressure by casting a massive ETW). Since the deck is common in my area, its one good reason I maindeck Stifle. Sure it's not that good against Chalice, but you can side-in Ancient Grudge, K. Grip, EE if you play it (and very few decks play CotV MD in my meta). If reanimator was big in my meta, I'd play UGW-Thresh to have access to StoP.

how is Stifle better than Counterspell if it can't actually answer threats?

What I'm saying is that they do not serve exactly the same function, in decks with not exactly the same gameplan; that makes them hard to compare. The answer to the question wether one should want to put more pressure by playing a more aggro role or be more controlish depends on the meta, etc.

P.S.: When a lot of consistant (and good) tournament results start popping-in about a certain deck, in my book, it's a good indication that something's working right; I agree that it's hard to use that info to narrow its success down to a single card.

Happy Gilmore

06-21-2007, 10:18 AM

This is silly. Stifle never generates card advantage. It's a tempo card.

Every card in magic can be thought of in terms of card advantage. Stifle cannot answer threats, therefore Stifle is a tempo loss (in this case). If you're using Stifle to counter Wastelands and Fetchlands then it would be both a tempo gain and card parity. Using Stifle for ETW or Tendrils will generate card advantage because of the rituals needed in order make it lethal.

Adan

06-21-2007, 10:44 AM

Every card in magic can be thought of in terms of card advantage. Stifle cannot answer threats, therefore Stifle is a tempo loss (in this case). If you're using Stifle to counter Wastelands and Fetchlands then it would be both a tempo gain and card parity. Using Stifle for ETW or Tendrils will generate card advantage because of the rituals needed in order make it lethal.

Yes, Stifle is a versatile card. And similar to Stifle, Repeal is also a versatile card which also cantrips.

Repeal can be used as a provisonal solution against Blood Moon (that's why I don't play any Forests), as combat trick thingy and together with Fire/Ice it can help to race the opponent.

But like I sad, in general, in "my" buildup there, you got 3 variable slots. Play whatever you want, if it's Counterspells, Stifle, Repeal, a Shoal, a 4th Daze, whatever.

Nightmare

06-21-2007, 10:48 AM

Happy Gilmore

06-21-2007, 11:03 AM

Dom, I'm not particularly concerned about the debate here, but there is a significant portion of the discussion that I think you're overlooking.

Aether Vial.

Counterspell is slower than Vial, which means at least a third of your countermagic is invalidated by it turn 1. You can't rely simply on having the Needle. If I'm forced into a situation where my Counterspells are invalidated by a Vial, Lackey, or even Wizard, I'd rather have access to a Stifle.
Of course, I don't run red, I don't run Counterspell, and I don't run Stifle. That's just me, though.

Your right, and that is why Stifle was used at some point to help against goblins. If they have an active vial you're still in a losing situation no mater how you dice it. Post board you have more answers to Vial which makes Counterspell better.

The discussion began with the claim that Stifle was better than Counterspell in the main. Now whether or not it is better against goblins is debatable. However, my point still stands that Stifle in the MD makes your bad matchups worse and you good matchups better. Negating Goblins altogether I don't think the inclusion is justified for this reason.

noobslayer

06-21-2007, 12:23 PM

This whole argument has gotten out of hand I believe, and before it erupts into an inevitable flame war, one critical point needs to be addressed. We are now playing two different, albeit wielding the same shell, versions of UGr Threshold.

First off we have the age old control version brought to us by the Hatfields. The build sports numerous card quality cantrips, and card advantage drawing power in the form of predict. This build runs significantly less burn spells and threats, and also buckles down for the long haul because of this. To compliment its strategy it runs counterspell, as it does not try to gain significant tempo over an opponent, only counter relevant threats, land one of its own, and beat down until it wins. Here is the build at last count:

Hatfield Threshold

// Lands
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [B] Forest (2)
3 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [B] Island (2)

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [JU] Fledgling Dragon

// Spells
3 [NE] Daze
3 [MM] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Predict
3 [FD] Serum Visions
3 [IA] Portent
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AT] Lightning Bolt
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 4 [PT] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [B] Control Magic

This build has a few notable cards that distinguish it as a control build. First off it opts for a 4cc "Finisher" in the form of Fledgling Dragon. It also chooses to run Counterspell to make sure certain relevant problems never become a real worry. The cantrip base to me is what really makes this deck more controlling. You are running virtually 16 cantripping cards. Two of them (Predict and SDT) really shore up the card advantage needed to win longer games. There is also a notable lack of mental note in these builds, as they are often less concerned with obtaining threshold, than they are just keeping you from generating an advantageous board position.

Now we move on to the newer, and recently successful tempo build of the deck. Here is Paul Nicollo's Top 8 Grand Prix List:

Nicollo Tempo Thresh

// Lands
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [B] Forest (2)
1 [B] Island (2)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [PS] Quirion Dryad

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
3 [NE] Daze
3 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [JU] Mental Note
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [FD] Serum Visions

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PT] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast

Even a beginner could tell these lists should play drastically different (Note I made updates to the main and mana base). This build wants to land a beater as quick as it can, burn out its opponents threats, and gain tempo with its counter magic, most notably Stifle. Stifle is probably one of the most versatile cards in this format. From fetches to Storm triggers, it seemingly does it all. This build runs more burn, and less real cantrips. A deck like this would not be able to support cards like SDT or Predict, so instead it can afford to run Mental Note, pumping all of its threats, and potentially giving Tarmogoyf +3/+3. This deck doesn't play Counterspell, as it instead wants to lands threats, throw burn or cantrip, or leave one open to Stifle and generate tempo advantage.

Even notice how the side board address many different threats. Hatfield thresh opts for the Counter-top engine in many problematic match-ups, where as Nicollo thresh can bring in a wider array of cards including Spell Snare and Tormod's Crypt. This does mean however that tempo thresh has a much more tight sideboard, leaving Control thresh with more room for other answers.

Also, Stifling a ringleader trigger I feel does generate a significant amount of advantage. Basic math states that +1 < +2/+5. Left with a 2/2 hasty body? No worries, more threats and more burn address this issue deftly.

aTn

06-21-2007, 12:27 PM

The discussion began with the claim that Stifle was better than Counterspell in the main.

From my end, I made no claim other than state a preference towards Stifle mostly because of metagame considerations and because of the build I am currently testing (Liek's). All I discussed referred to Liek's list; so the question was not related to the MD of any UGR-Thresh deck but a specific one (and for a specific metagame). Anyhow, I think the discussion has grown stale; instead of repeating myself, I'll simply shut up and get some testing done. Thanks to H. Gilmore and all, it was nice to get all your opinions on the subject.

Of course, I don't run red, I don't run Counterspell, and I don't run Stifle. That's just me, though.

Just you and Bardo :wink:

kabal

06-21-2007, 12:41 PM

This whole argument has gotten out of hand I believe, and before it erupts into an inevitable flame war, one critical point needs to be addressed.

Actually, this is quite healthy ... Think back to the debate on Mental Note Vs. Predict, neither camp came to an consensus but had allot of great discussion on the Pros/Cons to using each one.

Nicollo's Gro

- 4 Mental Note / +4 Sleight of Hand

Fixed ... You removed Werebear, so not reason for MN anymore.

Adan

06-21-2007, 02:27 PM

This whole argument has gotten out of hand I believe, and before it erupts into an inevitable flame war, one critical point needs to be addressed. We are now playing two different, albeit wielding the same shell, versions of UGr Threshold.

Actually this statement just proves that I'm beeing ignored and that you don't accept my build.

I said that you got 3 free slots. So you can add 2 Needles and the 4th Daze to have some answers to Aether Vial. repeal sometimes also can be a helpful answer to Aether Vial, even if you would just reset it to 0.

If you except a lot of Goblins, I would definitley play 4 Daze and 2 Pithing Needles. Dazes are extremley strong in the earlygame and they are also good later when the Goblin wants so resolve a Warchief, Ringleader or Siege Gang Commander.

aTn

06-21-2007, 03:17 PM

@Adan: I considered you build, but to be honest, I haven't had time to try some of your inclusions (BTS for example). I understand that adding Daze and Needle may help vs. Gobs but it's not that hot vs. other decks, like say, Solidarity or Empty the Warrens based decks. But hey, who know, maybe +1 Daze +2 Needle is a good call against the majority of decks in your meta.

@NoobSlayer: Thanks for clarifying the point I was trying to make (guess I decided to post again... what the heck I'll playtest tonight at a local store :smile:). I don't think this will evolve into a flame-war; I just think we need to try and talk about it from a constructive point of view (i.e. trying to make the build better, trying to better understand what makes the deck work/lose, trying to find the right context for our claims (your post is an example of that), etc.). Let's leave our "fantasy setting based card game egos" aside.

Citrus-God

06-21-2007, 03:33 PM

@NoobSlayer: Thanks for clarifying the point I was trying to make (guess I decided to post again... what the heck I'll playtest tonight at a local store :smile:). I don't think this will evolve into a flame-war; I just think we need to try and talk about it from a constructive point of view (i.e. trying to make the build better, trying to better understand what makes the deck work/lose, trying to find the right context for our claims (your post is an example of that), etc.). Let's leave our "fantasy setting based card game egos" aside.

Well... let's be honest here. Like NoobSlayer said, we're comparing two different cards for the wrong reasons in this deck. Like everyone else who has played Leik's build, it's Tempo-Aggro. Of course, the Hatfield build is just Midgame-Aggro Control.

The reasons why Stifles are good in Leik's build because he's deck doesnt have a long term advantage and Stifle does many things to slow the game down for 1 simple mana. Counterspell, however, isnt always dead when drawn and counters whatever threat your opponent is trying to play (if Vial is answered of course). Counterspell isnt really dead when topdecked. Because the Hatfield build has so many cantrips, everyone who has played against me says that I pulled counters out of my ass like crazy. I couldn't help but agree.

Really, I believe the argument here is, "should be have a 2nd-3rd Needle in Leik's build? If so, what do we cut?"

Yes, Needle is that importent. We should really discuss this.

aTn

06-21-2007, 04:28 PM

Well... let's be honest here. Like NoobSlayer said, we're comparing two different cards for the wrong reasons in this deck. Like everyone else who has played Leik's build, it's Tempo-Aggro. Of course, the Hatfield build is just Midgame-Aggro Control.

Very true, that's what I was repeating in two earlier posts... Anyways, moving on towards your question:

should we have a 2nd-3rd Needle in Leik's build? If so, what do we cut?"

For a couple of weeks now, I've played with 4 Daze, 3 Stifle and 1 Needle maindeck and it's been fine against Goblins, Fish, Cret Belcher and mono-B suicide (variations of the Columbus list), Solidarity and TES. What other decks would warrant the inclusion of a second Needle ? If Pernicious Deed (and Landstill in general) is rampant, a second Needle could be a good idea. Same thing for equipment based aggro and aggro-control (for example Faerie Stompy). I'd probably cut Daze number four in the build I'm playing (or Stifle number 4 in Liek's original build) to put a Needle in there if need be.

noobslayer

06-21-2007, 05:56 PM

Has anyone else considered going down to just 4 Nimble Mongoose, and 4 Tarmogoyf? You get to run Isochron Scepter and more burn to off-set the lack of beating bodies.

Shriekmaw

06-21-2007, 11:02 PM

Has anyone else considered going down to just 4 Nimble Mongoose, and 4 Tarmogoyf? You get to run Isochron Scepter and more burn to off-set the lack of beating bodies.

I think you have to run the 4 Mongoose and 4 Tarmogoyf as the creature base. I also run Quirion Dryad, but that mainly b/c I'm playing with the red splash over the white. If I was playing white, I would probably still add at least 1 Mystic Enforcer into the main deck as he always seems to be good when you can get him into play.

I'm not a fan of Isochron Scepter in Gro at all, I would simply play more burn or card draw instead of wasting card slots on the scepter. I don't think its a bad idea to try a few scepters in the board, but I wouldn't main deck them at all.

Bardo

06-22-2007, 12:07 AM

I'm not a fan of Isochron Scepter in Gro at all, I would simply play more burn or card draw instead of wasting card slots on the scepter. I don't think its a bad idea to try a few scepters in the board, but I wouldn't main deck them at all.

Agreed. I tried out ScepterGro almost two years ago, this was just before I flirted with the ill-fated ChromeThresh and found both cards (Iso Scepter and Chrome Mox) really interfere with hitting Threshold. Scepter, however, is pretty sweet as a 1-of where it can randomly win the game in an obnoxious and surprising manner, but isn't a core part of the deck. This was especially fun (like in December of 2004) when I was still running AK in Threshold.

Liek

06-24-2007, 01:31 AM

I played in a small tournament today.

4 nimble mongoose
4 werebear
4 quirion dryad

4 brainstorm
4 serum visions
4 mental note

4 force of will
3 daze
3 stifle

4 lightning bolt
3 fire/ice
2 pithing needle

4 wooded foothills
4 polluted delta
1 flooded strand
3 tropical island
3 volcanic island
1 forest
1 island

sideboard:
4 pyroclasm
2 red elemental blast
2 krosan grip
2 threads of disloyalty
2 ancient grudge
3 spell snare

My friends took all of the Tarmogoyfs within my availability and took them to the Grand Prix (that I should have gone to.) So, I had to play good ol' Werebear. I kept track of Werebear's performance throughout the day, here's what I recorded:

-I tapped Werebear for mana 6 times.
-At points when Werebear was in play, if it were a Tarmogoyf, the largest it would have been was 4/5 (although there was one time when it was not in play that it could have been 5/6. Only one time, though.)
-One game I played Werebear on turn 2, obtained threshold on turn 3, and if it were a Tarmogoyf, it would only have been a 3/4. This is probably not typical.

So, my point here is that Werebear is probably better than Tarmogoyf in my configuration of the archetype. I also conclude that Tarmogoyf would be correct in slower versions, or versions build to get more than 4 card types into graveyards (enchantments and artifacts.)

Also, it's important to note that this was a 14 person tournament, where I played against the same archetype (mono black) three times. Matches:

-1: Mono black (win)
highlights: Ancient Grudge down two Chrome Moxes.
-2: uwb fish (win)
highlights: Threads of Disloyalty on Serra Avenger
-3: gwb control (loss)
highlights: after Haunting Echoes resolved, I had a goose and a bear vs a Graveshell Scarab, him at 6 life, I'm holding Fire/Ice. I drew Mental Note, played it and drew another Mental Note, played it, and Iced his guy to attack for lethal. I lose the next two games, but they were fairly close.
-4: goblins (ID. I know, I should have played.)
-quarters: mono black (win)
highlights: 7/7 quirion dryad + pyroclasm
-semis: mono black
highlights: pyroclasm with a dryad again
-finals: gwb control (split.)

So, this tournament probably doesn't bring any conclusive results, however, I will continue testing to determine whether Werebear or Tarmogoyf is correct for this version of the deck.

Citrus-God

06-24-2007, 02:27 AM

From what I've seen with Werebears, I only use the mana effect when I am under pressure. With Goyfs, at least, pressures earlier so it wont seem like you're under pressure. But thats from my day today against many Threshold and Aggro Control mirrors.

umbowta

06-24-2007, 11:46 AM

I played in the same tournament as Liek did, however, I got paired against 10 land stompy, Landstill, and Belcher. I chose to go with Brainstorm/Sleight/S. Visions with Mongoose/Goyf/Dryad. I went 5-0-1 in games with the draw coming in game two vs Landstill as we went to time (they even gave us +10 min in the round). After round 3, I went home with my 3-0 record because my kids were getting restless.

There was only one point at which I wished Dryad was Werebear but I felt Goyfs were solid all day long. At the smallest, goyf was a 3/4 while at its largest, 5/6. Keep in mind that my setup is designed to build Goyfs and Dryads, not necessarily hit threshold.

BoardinCharlie

06-25-2007, 10:46 AM

I see that a lot of people are running fire/ice in their builds. Is he main reason since it pitches to force of will to be run instead of magma jet? How often do you find yourself finding 2 for 1's on fire/ice. Is this used in a particular match up? Just wondering because I would personally keep the theme of the deck going with card quality, granted card advantage is great but the times in when this would occur are very rare. I would much rather kill a pile driver/chief then dig 2 than kill a lackey/matron or just trade one for one on any of the larger butted creatures.

georgjorge

06-25-2007, 01:10 PM

Personally, I think that Fire/Ice is better than Jet for the simple reason that it is never dead in your hand, the way Jet is when there are no (small) creatures on the board - drawing a card > Scry 2. However, I'll be trying out Jet in it's place for the sole reason that I'm running four Counterbalance main, but I don't really expect Scry 2 to matter much there.

Also, has anyone tried Dryad here ? I've been shying away from them since I'm playing Control Thresh and want to drop Balance rather than cast my creatures on turn two, but some people keep insisting that Dryad is still pretty good on turn four or five...can anyone comment on that ?

As for the decklists I see here...I really think Vedalken Shackles to be better than Control Magic in so many situations. They are a bit easier to remove (Needle and artifact removal), but people shouldn't board these in against you anyway unless you're playing four Tops or Scepters main. And three mana is a lot less than four in this deck...

Happy Gilmore

06-25-2007, 01:21 PM

Liek

06-25-2007, 11:59 PM

Hanni

06-26-2007, 01:45 PM

Here's the build I was playing around with for a few hours on MWS:

U/G/r Aggro Thresh

Lands (17)
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Creatures (12)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells (31)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet

Sideboard (15)
3 Stifle
3 Loaming Shaman
3 Krosan Grip
2 Rolling Earthquake
2 Pithing Needle
2 Vedalken Shackles

The SB is probably really bad but it's just what I threw together so I had something rather than nothing.

I was first considering running a 16 threat creature base but then decided that I'd rather have more burn. Dryad just isn't a good creature when 16 spells in the deck are green. Wild Mongrel was my other choice, which could potentially replace Mental Note as a form of grave filling, but the blue spell count is already at a low 20 with Mental Note and I didn't want to drop any.

This deck is basically balls to the wall aggro, as far as a Threshold frame is concerned. The deck plays out like G/R Beats. The deck runs 12 fat green guys and 11 burn spells, 7 of them being 1cc for 3 damage spells. This pushes the deck into dropping guys early consistently and burning away early blockers consistently. Once the ground game gets stalled for whatever reason (Wrath of God, too many chumpers, etc etc) the 11 burn spells just go to the dome.

While I really dislike Mental Note in Threshold because it doesn't increase card quality at all, I found it necessary for this build. I haven't understood why people think Mental Note is better for Tarmogoyf than Werebear, but I run them both anyway. With 8 Threshold guys, Mental Note is key to helping establish Threshold early or rebuild it later. This deck wants Threshold early... this deck wants to be the beatdown as early as possible.

Since this deck focuses alot more on the early game tempo and alot less on controlling the gamestate later on, and because this deck wants to invest it's mana on guys and burn (and cantrip) rather than leaving UU open, I don't run any Counterspells and I run the 4th Daze. Instead of controlling the gamestate later on during the match, the deck simply uses the additional burn spells to finish the opponent off (against Control decks, for example).

The deck utilizes Chain Lightning rather than Fire//Ice because Chain Lightning costs 1cc and does 3 damage... this is relatively important for the early game tempo, enabling me to drop guys while playing burn, cast cantrip and play burn, etc. 7 1cc burn spells increases the speed of the decks early gameplan, IMO. While I understand that Fire//Ice is a great tempo piece by tapping big guys in order to swing through, I plan on simply tossing the burn to my opponent's face by the time they stabilize the ground. I also run Chain Lightning because it's a Sorcery and this deck has a lack of Sorceries to abuse with Tarmogoyf.

I run Magma Jet rather than Fire//Ice because this deck utilizes a far lower amount of card quality due to Mental Note instead of Sleight/Portent, giving the deck a core of Brainstorm/Visions for card quality purposes. In this respect, Magma Jet gives me a little additional card quality so the deck isn't lacking. It also helps play into the gameplan by digging for creatures early while removing blockers, and plays into the gameplan later by digging for more burn while burning my opponent.

I find this version interesting due to the larger number of creature drops and larger number of burn spells, making it feel alot more like G/R Beats with Blue.

Cidolfus

06-26-2007, 03:56 PM

I like that build a lot, Hanni. However; I'd probably run Seal of Fire over Magma Jet. Your reasoning that you included Fire/Ice over Magma Jet is based primarily on the casting cost, so Seal of Fire beats Magma Jet in that category. The scry affect of Magma Jet just seems gratuitous when your cantrips already give you the card selection manipulation you require. Perhaps most importantly, Seal of Fire is an enchantment and thusly has synergy with Tarmogoyf.

Pet names for Tarmogoyf are not allowed, by decree of Me.

~ Nightmare

Mind if I call You ugly, then?

Hanni

06-26-2007, 04:04 PM

I was considering Seal of Fire in place of Chain Lightning, and I will be testing that change shortly, but I would not replace the Magma Jet's with them. Magma Jet is extremely essential in the 4/4/4 Brainstorm/Visions/Note build because Mental Note itself does not provide card quality and 8 cantrips with no additional draw is simply not enough, in my opinion, to keep the deck fueled properly. While Magma Jet doesn't actually cantrip, it has Scry 2, which digs 2 cards deep to improve card quality. So the deck actually runs 12 card quality cards (because Mental Note isn't included), which I feel is important for the deck.

Cidolfus

06-26-2007, 04:07 PM

Eh, I don't know. My instincts tell me that Magma Jet gets more credit than it deserves, especially in this deck. Regardless I'll be testing both cards out in your build.

Hanni

06-26-2007, 04:16 PM

Well, then again, replacing Chain with Seal isn't necessarily a great idea either because the deck goes down to 4 sorceries... maybe pulling Magma Jet is the correct call... but then again, I'm not sure how necessary being able to grow Tarmogoyf's to 5/6 without the opponent's help is though...

I'm just gonna do a little testing on the burn configuration and figure out what works best, although I'm positive I want [at least] 11 burn spells MD.

Soto

06-26-2007, 05:42 PM

I don't play ***** alot but Magma Jet is too little for too much in this deck. You already have Brainstorm and Serum Vision for scrying effects and that 2 dmg won't help vs much. Also Quirion Dryad is a better 2 drop than Werebear. In 1-2 turns it will be bigger than thresholded werebear. Also Chain Lightning is meh. Run more draw like portent which also help with FoW.

my 0.02$

Solpugid

06-26-2007, 06:31 PM

You really don't want to lose magma jet. This deck runs so well because of card selection, not necessarily because of raw power (with the exception of the creature base). Topdecking well, more keepable opening hands, etc. make scry so powerful here. Personally, I think that if you want 11 burn spells your list looks fine. I might, however, cut a single chain for another cantrip.

Cidolfus

06-26-2007, 07:28 PM

I think that 11 burn, when you considering all the deck thinning going on, is too much. This is what I'm considering:

4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Seal of Fire

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Werebear

2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Hanni

06-26-2007, 07:35 PM

From my testing, more burn spells is never really "too much." At least not the way I play the deck, in the version of the deck I play. You want to see burn early and you want to see lots of it. It clears the way for your men so that you're not sitting around getting chumped. Once the opponent stabilizes, you throw burn at their face and win. I can't begin to explain how many games I've won against all kinds of randomness like Stax and such simply because I had a large enough burn density to finish the game off with burn after they stabilized. I don't run any evasive creatures to get around a stalled out ground game, either.

Cidolfus

06-26-2007, 07:37 PM

As good as 3 more burn spells is--also consider 3 Spell Snare. People have been masturbating over it in the UGw Thresh thread for the last few days.

Solpugid

06-26-2007, 09:57 PM

I don't like spell snare in either version of thresh, simply because its versatility is limited. If I leave mana open, even one, I want to be able to stop whatever my opponent does. Spell snare doesn't allow this. Additionally, there are plenty of dangerous spells that cost 1, 3, or 4, and I really want answers to those. If you're going to give slots over to more hard counters, just make it counterspell. But, this is just personal preference, as I know other people swear by the card.

I really don't like tarmogoyf when you only have 4 sorceries. Sorcery is one of the big four card types (others being creature, land, and instant) that you should try to consistently get in your grave (and never assume your opponent's grave will help you out). Besides that, seal of fire is just inferior to chain lightning against most decks, Goblins as an exception (it's not good giving them free dome shots, and seal kills anything chain does here). Though I suppose having a 3/4 for 2, with the potential to get bigger, isn't all that bad.

Cidolfus

06-27-2007, 11:50 AM

The ability to potentially give Tarmogoyf +1/+1 is comparable to dealing an additional 1 damage with the burn spell. Considering the deck runs only 4 sorceries, however, I may yield in your favor to Chain Lightning being the superior choice. I'm not a fan of Magma Jet, however.

Sorceries or not, Tarmogoyf is bonkers in any Thresh build--especially ones that run Mental Note. Mental Note a creature and sorcery = 3/4 2nd turn Tarmogoyf. Mental Note a creature and sorcery and use a fetchland = 4/5 Tarmogoyf. Late Game he will always be atleast 4/5 for 2 mana. He's bonkers in Thresh.

Happy Gilmore

06-27-2007, 12:54 PM

Citrus-God

06-27-2007, 03:51 PM

If anything Tarmogoyf makes slower cantrips like Portent and Serum Visions better since you can easily make him a 4/5 with only three cards in the GY!

I <3 Tarmogoyf.

I know that Goyf also uses the opponent's Mental Note against him, and with cards like Portent, Visions, and BS, you can easily find more Goyfs to win the Goyf race.

Whit3 Ghost

06-27-2007, 05:19 PM

Goyf is crazy, especially because it turns your counterspells into Battlegrowths x2 in the early game.

Samshire

06-28-2007, 02:43 AM

Has anybody Tried Greater Gargadon in the deck? I mean, it's a 9/7 that costs :r: and if you play it against Landstill decks first turn, it usually comes into play!

Nihil Credo

06-28-2007, 05:26 AM

Has anybody Tried Greater Gargadon in the deck? I mean, it's a 9/7 that costs :r: and if you play it against Landstill decks first turn, it usually goes on the stack around turn 8 then gets countered, Stifled or Plowed!
Fixed.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

07-01-2007, 06:32 PM

Anyway, ignoring Greater Gargadon because it's too slow to matter against almost any deck, a question I think it's interesting to focus on is, if you're running Counterbalance main, which I think is correct, do you want Fire/Ice as additional burn, or Magma Jet? Magma Jet lets you scry for the right CC in response to things... but Fire/Ice lets you counter cards that cost four mana, including Wrath, Damnation, Goblin Charbelcher, and various fatties you might have trouble with. Fire/Ice pitches to Force of Will and can tap down an opposing Tarmogoyf at the wrong time to force through damage... but Magma Jet works with Predict and helps out your next draw.

Citrus-God

07-01-2007, 06:38 PM

Magma Jet. Magma Jet at least works with Counterbalance at instant speed.... however, why would you run additional Burn with Counterbalance in the deck, since the deck is already tight in space?

noobslayer

07-01-2007, 11:28 PM

I'd go with fire/ice, namely for its strong synergy with counterbalance and taking care of many relevant 4cc spells. I also like being able to split damage. There's so much draw in this point, it feels like versatility maybe be more needed than more draw and card selection. Only time and testing will tell.

07-02-2007, 01:01 AM

For those of you who believe Fire/Ice has that synergy with Counterbalance, you are wrong. From SCG Ask the Judge:

Q: I have Counterbalance in play. My opponent plays Fact or Fiction and I reveal a Fire / Ice with Counterbalance. Is Fact or Fiction countered?

A: No. The converted mana cost of Fire / Ice is two and two, and the converted mana cost of Fact or Fiction is four. When an effect looks at a split card to see if a characteristic matches a certain quality, it will get two bits of information. It will then use both of these answers individually. These two replies are not added together. So a revealed Fire / Ice can counter a spell with a converted mana cost of two, but not four.

Magma Jet - 1
Fire/Ice - 0

Citrus-God

07-02-2007, 05:59 AM

For those of you who believe Fire/Ice has that synergy with Counterbalance, you are wrong. From SCG Ask the Judge:

So with Dark Confidant, do you take 2 instead of 4 then? I'm stil puzzled by that....

noobslayer

07-02-2007, 08:35 AM

Hmm. Di raises a compelling argument. Well, either way, I am more keen on testing Fire/Ice, as being able to split damage is quite useful, as is still being able to have a soft answer for larger creatures, and other permanents.

07-02-2007, 09:33 AM

So with Dark Confidant, do you take 2 instead of 4 then? I'm stil puzzled by that....

Oddly enough, it's the other way around with Dark Confidant. Again, quoting SCG Ask the Judge:

Q: As I understand it, you can imprint Research / Development on an Isochron Scepter, but if you reveal R&D with Dark Confidant, you'll lose seven life. Why is this?

A: Split cards have two sets of characteristics. When the game needs to know a certain characteristic of a split card, two answers will be given. What this means depends on how the effect that asks about the mana cost is worded. If an effects asks what the mana cost of a card is, it will get both answers and use both numbers. Dark Confidant's ability is like this. When the Research / Development is revealed, it will get the answer of "two and five." So you'll lose two life and five life, for a total of seven life.

Wierd how it doesn't work the same with Counterbalance, but I understand it.

Hmm. Di raises a compelling argument. Well, either way, I am more keen on testing Fire/Ice, as being able to split damage is quite useful, as is still being able to have a soft answer for larger creatures, and other permanents.

Is the ability to split damage, a single point of damage, along with the occasional cantrip, more efficient in a deck that greatly abuses the top of their library? I imagine Magma Jet would probably be a better solution just based off the raw synergy it has with Predict and Counterbalance.

BoardinCharlie

07-02-2007, 11:32 AM

I'm going to have to say that Magma Jet is the better card right now. Look at the uses of Fire/Ice right now. Against Gobbos how many times do you use fire as a split?

Matrons/Fanatics/lackeys/Seige tokens/sharpshooter/TS Hooligan

When one of these comes down there will always be another larger threat with them in my experience with the deck.

I always thought the main advantage with Fire/Ice in this deck was against decks like Survival and/or Affinity with Disciples/workers/Birds/Mana Elves/Etc. Yeah the Ice is a nifty trick now and then, but magma jet clears those lands/cantrips to get our threats online asap which is what UGR wants to do...be the aggressive or more so than UGW. So with the recent news of how fire/ice reads off of counterbalance and the current DTB, it doesn't seem that there is much need for fire/ice over jet.

Lego

07-02-2007, 04:09 PM

Weird how it doesn't work the same with Counterbalance, but I understand it.

It does actually work the same way with Counterbalance, it just seems like it's working differently. Confidant reveals the top card and asks what the CC is. Fire/Ice says, "Two and two" so you lose two life and two life. Counterbalance reveals the top card and asks what the CC is. Fire/Ice says, "Two and two" so you can counter something that costs two or something that costs two. Crime/Punishment, in a similar situation, could counter a 2CC or a 5CC card.

That said, I've always loved Magma Jet, I just don't know where you'd fit is, especially with maindeck Counterbalance.

On another note, a couple weeks ago I went to my father's and played in a tournament in NH. I showed up and saw two TES and two Goblin decks in a relatively small field, so I threw Pyroclasm in the main. I faced TES, Goblins, EtW combo (I didn't see the normal TES stuff, but I'm not sure), Goblins. Needless to say, Pyroclasm pulled its weight :)

07-02-2007, 05:02 PM

That said, I've always loved Magma Jet, I just don't know where you'd fit is, especially with maindeck Counterbalance.

On another note, a couple weeks ago I went to my father's and played in a tournament in NH. I showed up and saw two TES and two Goblin decks in a relatively small field, so I threw Pyroclasm in the main. I faced TES, Goblins, EtW combo (I didn't see the normal TES stuff, but I'm not sure), Goblins. Needless to say, Pyroclasm pulled its weight :)

I don't believe Counterbalance is worth playing in the main. It is bad against Goblins, which is pretty much a matchup you don't want to risk having any bad cards against. However you can pretty much assume it'll be sided in almost every other matchup, barring the Ancient Tomb-based Stompy variants and a couple other decks.

Also, that said about Pyroclasm is 100% true. I've been maindecking them (as well as Stifles) to make the Goblins matchup much better. My list is a bit different, but I think it does rather well.

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Quirion Dryad

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Predict

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Magma Jet
2 Pyroclasm
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Forest

Sideboard:
3 Counterbalance
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Quirion Dryad
1 Stifle
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle

One of the biggest gripes I am sure many of you would have with this list is the lack of Mental Note. I wanted to fit it but honestly couldn't find the room. I could technically move the Tops into the sideboard, but they're just so damn good. Running Stifles main allows you to stop storm combo better, and deal with Ringleaders and Matrons and other ugly shit that you might see. As mentioned earlier, Pyroclasm is absolutely nuts in the main. I run the EE over the 3rd Clasm for the sake of destroying other permanents as well as supplementing Tarmogoyf.

As for the board, most of it is standard. Needles/Grips/CB should be obvious. I have a 3rd Dryad because my list is unfortunately light on men, and then the other 1ofs because I couldn't fit them in the maindeck, but they are interchangable for a variety of matchups.

Citrus-God

07-02-2007, 06:08 PM

@Lego: MDed Clasms are the fucking way to go in a TES, CRET Belcher, and Vial Goblin heavy metagame. Pyroclasm isnt bad against Fish either.

@Di: IMO, you should cut those Serum Visions for Portents. You run a full set of Daze and FoWs, so you should take full advantage of them with Portent. Also, thanks for clearing the Confidant thing up, and nice list.

@BoardinCharlie: You use it as a split card when you're winning and force more damage through. In short, it's kinda win more.

Here's my list

// Lands 17
4 Flooded Strand
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
2 Island

// Creatures 10
4 Werebear
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Fledgling Dragon

// Spells 33
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
2 Serum Visions
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Predict
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Umezawa's Jitte <= Such a fucking bomb!

// Sideboard 15
4 Pyroclasm
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Naturalize
3 Control Magic
3 Counterbalance
1 Sensei's Divining Top

I posted this list like everywhere....

This list is so awesome. Cutting Geese for a set of Bears just to make Jitte playable is worth all the risks. Jittes, unlike Needle, at least does something against the Threshold mirror.

Changes I might make to this list might be cutting Fledgling Dragon for Quirion Dryads.

Amon Amarth

07-03-2007, 07:50 PM

This is what I've been playing recently. It rocks my socks.

Mana-17
4 Flooded Strand
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Forest

Creatures-12
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quiron Dryad

Burn!-8
4 Lighning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice

Countermagic-11
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle

Cantrips-12
4 Brainstorm
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Serums Visions

Sideboard-15
4 Pyroclasm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
2 Flametongue Kavu

I don't play any trash like Portent, Predict or Mental Note. None of those spells chain together very well. Jet sucks for the same reason. Fire/Ice spilts damage, cantrips, taps perms and pitches to Force. You can't say that about any other burn spell in the game. The only thing I'd consider changing maindeck is playing -1 Forest and +1 Volcanic Island.

The sideboard is good but the FTK's aren't supper necessary. I've been beating much everything with this deck.

aTn

07-04-2007, 09:23 AM

I don't play any trash like Portent, Predict or Mental Note. None of those spells chain together very well. Jet sucks for the same reason.

Before making empty statements, read the rest of the earlier discussions to get some pros and cons of each card and to know in which build they fit.

I've been beating much everything with this deck.

The deck has some tougher match-ups; define "everything".

Against which match-ups did you really need to have counterbalance-top sided in ? Since you play only 12 cantrip (unlike the control build which plays around 16), it's harder to assemble the duo (and hence seems to make it less effective against decks like combo).

Shriekmaw

07-04-2007, 11:22 AM

I don't play any trash like Portent, Predict or Mental Note. None of those spells chain together very well. Jet sucks for the same reason. Fire/Ice spilts damage, cantrips, taps perms and pitches to Force. You can't say that about any other burn spell in the game. The only thing I'd consider changing maindeck is playing -1 Forest and +1 Volcanic Island.

I really dislike when people call certain cards trash when most of the good Gro lists run these cards. I think all 3 of those cards are very good in Gro, it usually just comes down to personal preference and play testing experience to see which card you like best.

I have run a combination of these cards in Gro lists before, but the main reason I'm running mental note as of now is b/c the ability to power up tarmogoyf and threshold creatures faster. I would probably either run Predict or Portent in the deck, but I opted to run fire/ice main.

The one thing I can say is, that I would definitely run those cards over sleight of hand that I saw in your list of Threshold. It's a horrible card to consider when better options are on the table.

MattH

07-04-2007, 12:33 PM

Before making empty statements, read the rest of the earlier discussions to get some pros and cons of each card and to know in which build they fit.
What makes you think he hasn't read all about these and simply decided that those cards aren't good? Because he didn't come to the same conclusion as you?

The one thing I can say is, that I would definitely run those cards over sleight of hand that I saw in your list of Threshold. It's a horrible card to consider when better options are on the table.
I really dislike when people call certain cards horrible when most of the good Gro lists run these cards. See, two can play this game!

Anyway, I could not disagree more. Sleight of Hand has been vastly superior to Portent, Predict, and Mental Note (I run 4 Goose 4 Goyf 0 Werebear. If I was running 12 graveyard guys like some do, Note would be better, obviously). Sleight of Hand is better* than Serum Visions on any turn past the first, when you might be digging for land.

Magma Jet also has been heads and shoulders above Fire/Ice. When do you ever want to split the damage anymore? Almost never. Every creature you ever care to kill is either x/2 or is Goblin Lackey when there are no other creatures around, making it an overcosted Shower of Sparks. Jet has been about as good as Bolt, overall.

*If it offends you to hear people decide whether one card is better than another card, pretend I said, "Sleight of Hand is a more welcome sight than Serum Visions."

Lone Signal

07-04-2007, 12:49 PM

I'm noticing a trend of going Gro over standard Thresh...
To those playing with Gro type builds, what's your opinion of the deck over the standard Thresh builds? Better overall or just something different but still just as good?

I can see why Gro type builds would want standard cantrips over Predict, since setting up for Predict sometimes doesn't happen right away, and that might be cumbersome for aggro. In a more traditional build I have, I enjoy Predicts over other cantrips since it's slightly bit more controlly.

Citrus-God

07-04-2007, 12:50 PM

Yup, he's askin' for it, and I will be very reckless with this discussions because it's easy; I know I'm right.

I don't play any trash like Portent, Predict or Mental Note. None of those spells chain together very well.

Wait.... None of those spells chain together very well? Listen to yourself, it's been proven they chain together very well. It's called that cantrip chain (just exclude Mental Note at the moment)

Take this cantrip base for example...

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Portent
4 Predict

You can play 16 lands at least, and keep tons of situational 1 land hands and still make it out alive.

Let's start with the cantrip's functions first:

Running Portents can give you a strong early game by manipulating your draws so you always have that Daze/FoW for the first few turns, while Serum Visions is played less aggressively, but serving a different function by fixing your draws instead of manipulating them.

The 2 cards are drawn off of Predict are usually good, and will usually xhain into other cantrips. Because of Predict, you recover from aggressively pitching to FoW.

Here's the philosophy:

The philosophy is to create a chain of cantrips to cycle through your deck, finding cantrips, threats, and answers. If your chain of cantrips is stopped, you're going to be unable to find anything you need, and sadly, when trying to build the deck less reliant on cantrips, and more reliant on topdecks in general, you're going to be disappointed topdecking the wrong card when the card you want to topdeck is a cantrip.

Jet sucks for the same reason.

No, Jet is good because it gives you card quality. I never liked Drawing dead cards... ever.

Fire/Ice spilts damage, cantrips, taps perms and pitches to Force. You can't say that about any other burn spell in the game.

Well... in Legacy it's trash, simple as that. The only valid argument is that it can pitch to FoW. Splitting damage is an irrevelent arguement because it cant kill very many important cards unless you're up against Survival. Tapping perms is pointless when you could just run White instead and just Plow the damn creature. Stealing a 2nd turn isnt a very strong argument either because you're just slowing them down by a turn when you could just find ways to win.

The only thing I'd consider changing maindeck is playing -1 Forest and +1 Volcanic Island. [/quote]

Shriekmaw

07-04-2007, 01:14 PM

Anyway, I could not disagree more. Sleight of Hand has been vastly superior to Portent, Predict, and Mental Note (I run 4 Goose 4 Goyf 0 Werebear. If I was running 12 graveyard guys like some do, Note would be better,

One of the main reasons why players run Serum Visions and Portent is to set up cards like Predict later in the game with the scry ability. I would always prefer to run visions because if there is land when you scry, you can simply put them on the bottom of your library. Sleight of Hand lets you only see 2 cards, visions lets you see 3. The more information that you can obtain from your card drawing spells the better you can control the game.

Thats why I believe visions is superior to sleight of hand in Threshold decks.

frogboy

07-04-2007, 01:32 PM

Sleight of Hand gives you access to not one but two cards on your turn.

Citrus-God

07-04-2007, 01:33 PM

One of the main reasons why players run Serum Visions and Portent is to set up cards like Predict later in the game with the scry ability. I would always prefer to run visions because if there is land when you scry, you can simply put them on the bottom of your library. Sleight of Hand lets you only see 2 cards, visions lets you see 3. The more information that you can obtain from your card drawing spells the better you can control the game.

Well... Portent is also supperrior to Sleight of Hand because of the following reasons

1. It lets you see 3-4 cards (you see the 4th when you nothing else good).
2. Much better than Sleight of Hand when it comes to keeping 1 land hands.
3. Because you see 3 cards instead of the 2 which is Sleight of Hand, you maximize the power of Daze/FoW better first turn, whereas, Sleight of Hand only let's you see 2 cards.

Sleight of Hand cant see 3-4 cards, abuses the hell out of Daze and FoW, but not as well as Portent, and get really get you out of mana screw as well as Porent can.

Sleight of Hand gives you access to not one but two cards on your turn.

In a perm light deck, this argument is somewhat irrevelent. As long as 12 or less creatures are being ran, Portent is probably better. Also, when all your removal and counters are instants, Portent is probably better at using those outs.

Volt

07-04-2007, 01:45 PM

Since Amon is running Quirion Dryad, and NOT running Predict, his choice of Sleight of Hand over Portent is quite justifiable. That's kind of the exception, though. In general, I rank the cantrips this way: Brainstorm > Portent > Serum Visions > Sleight of Hand. I do not count Mental Note or Predict as cantrips.

aTn

07-04-2007, 01:49 PM

Amon, my maindeck is almost the same as yours (-1 Daze, -1 Fire/Ice, +1 Needle, +1 EE, + Different Manabase) and I agree with you, it rocks. For the manabase, I'd suggest going with
-2 Flooded Strand, +1 Wooded Foothills, -1 Tropical Island, +2 Polluted Delta, -1 Island (except if you play spells with two or more Us in their casting cost, you don't need two basic islands), +1 Mountain (see Hanni's manabase).

Has anyone (except Hanni) tested the aggro version with 4 Lightning Bolt, 4 Magma Jet and 3 Chain Lightning (and only 4 Fow and 4 Daze as control spells) ? If so, did you miss having Stifle or Counterspell maindeck ?

-----
Aside
-----

I decided to write this just for the sake of being understood (and not to masturbate on this thread).

What makes you think he hasn't read all about these and simply decided that those cards aren't good? Because he didn't come to the same conclusion as you?

Haha... yes, everyone has to agree with me... come on :rolleyes: (EDIT: I'm being sarcastic)! By the way, I do not play Portent, Predict or Mental Note and I did not feel attacked by Amon's (or your) statement, I simply interpreted it as false and made a suggestion.

If Amon's definition of "thrash" involves personal taste, then I can't argue with him. In contrast, if it goes along the line of "a set of cantrips is said to be thrash if and only if one cannot chain them" (as suggested by his post), then I'd argue that the statement "Portent, Predict and Mental Note are trash" is false; I'd then suggest him to read Anti~American4621's post (or possibly reread the posts on previous pages concerning these cantrips).

EDIT: I agree with Anti's post (below), the choice of cantrip base is a matter of personnal taste.

Citrus-God

07-04-2007, 02:10 PM

Personally, I believe that cantrips are based on personal taste, but as of now, I believe that when you play Threshold, you have to be open minded, or at least think outside the box.

I think this is a valid argument because there's so many ways to build and play it right now, and with Goyf printed, you can even shift gears with the deck and play the Tempo role earlier in the game, or you can go Control for a bit before you feel comfortable playing that role.

Solpugid

07-04-2007, 04:19 PM

While on some level it is personal taste, I can't agree that it all is. I'm sure you'd agree. For instance, certain cantrips are better in a controlling build, while others are better in an aggro build.

I personally think serum visions is better than portent in aggro builds and builds running some artifacts (needle, shackles, EE) since you can draw and play them on your turn. Portent is better in controlling builds and builds with mainly instant-speed removal (with creatures being the only permanents). And, though this comment belongs in a different thread, portent is better with meddling mage (and predict for that matter).

I can't, however, comment on sleight of hand since I've never tested it, though it just seems weaker than other options on the surface. I'll have to try it out when I get free time (but I'll be starting my study abroad semester in New Zealand soon, so that may be a while).

Amon Amarth

07-04-2007, 10:02 PM

Is it just me or is it getting warmer in here? Heh.

@Cantrips: I have tested Note, Predict and Portent. I have found all of them to be lacking in my deck. Mental Note is weak because I am less reliant on gaining Threshold. I want to pump up a huge Dryad or Tarmogoyf. Note does not do that very well (Well it pumps Goyf ok, I don't want to lose on card quality). You can't cast it and hope to get another cantrip or good spell. Just a random card off the top. Predict costs two mana and does not kill your opponent. I don't want to waste time screwing around drawing cards, almost an entire turn is wasted when casting Predict. Portent lets you see a ton of new cards and is fairly powerful, however, I want cards now. Waiting till the next upkeep is what kills the card for me. I want to chain Sleights, into Brainstorms into Bolts and swing with my monstrous Dryad. My version is very Dryad-centric, which just so happens to support Tarmogoyf really well too.

@Burn: I really do spilt up F/I all the time. Seriously. Taking out random Matrons and Fanatics so you can swing in for a bunch of damage has always been good. Tapping something big so you can swing for lethal with a Dryad has also been good vs randomness. As a random aside you can have too much burn in the deck. It's not always the right threat(There are WRONG threats!) and there is nothing I would want to take out for more burn.

@Matchups: Positive game against Goblins, Combo. Aggro-Control is pretty good too. The matchups that matter most. Besides, a little hyperbole never killed anyone. Damn.

Citrus-God

07-05-2007, 05:40 AM

It's not always the right threat(There are WRONG threats!) and there is nothing I would want to take out for more burn.

Just to quote him, and this is somewhat on the subject of Burn...

Burn is only good when you're winning earlier in the game than your opponent is. Like let's say you had control of the game for a few turns, then your opponent is down to 3 or less and is under pressure.

Burn is kinda bad when you're under pressure. Burn, isnt strong enough as a threat to justify itself as great in this situation, therefor, it's an awful threat. But in a Tempo deck, I guess it's not a bad idea since you're more likely to put your opponent under pressure.

aTn

07-05-2007, 01:12 PM

I agree with Amon concerning Fire/Ice in the aggro build; tapping fatties (for example, Mystic Enforcer) is nice and having the option to split damage against Goblins is also nice. Since I'm currently testing 4 Brainstorm, 4 Serum Visions and 3 Magma Jet, I'll probably try taking out the Sleigh of Hands for Predicts (thanks to TheMarco for his suggestions; the following build his mainly inspired by his).

Mana (17)
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Island

Control (8)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

Burn (9)
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire/Ice
3 Magma Jet

Cantrips (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict

Creatures (12)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quirion Dryad (maybe I'll test Werebear here if GY hate is low)

Meta Call (2)
2 Pyroclasm/Rolling Earthquake

Sideboard
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroclasm/Rolling Earthquake
4 Stifle
3 Needle
2 Loaming Shaman

One of the things that bothers me with this list is that you only have 18 blue spells to pitch to FoW (if I'm not mistaken, "standard" builds have 21+ blue spells). The maindeck Pyroclasms (R. Earthquakes) are justified by the fact that EtW and Goblins decks consistently top8 in my meta. In another meta, I'd probably go with -2 Pyroclasm (R.E.), -1 Predict, +3 Sleigh of Hand. One of the arguments I can find against Predict in this build is that 1U > U (when compared to Sleigh of Hand), so it might slow down the deck a bit. Anyhow, all this needs testing. Thoughts ? (thanks in advance for your comments, just keep in my this is a bit experimental).

noobslayer

07-05-2007, 11:47 PM

You really only need 16 to reliably pitch to force of will.

Sideboarding options... Has anyone tested Rolling earthquake to any success? How about bringing in Loaming Shaman as a beater in the goblin and control match?

bigbear102

07-06-2007, 12:54 AM

It seems to me that Predict is not as good without Mage and Bear. It gets you closer to Thresh, but this build is not looking for thresh as much as it is just wanting to play cards and find answers.

With Goyf you also want to spread out your cards over the types, predict is an instant along with most of your deck. If you played Visions/Portent/Slight (I rank them in that order) then you have a greater chance of having an instant and a sorcery in your grave in the first 1-2 turns. Odds are you will be countering something early on anyway, or at least burning. That is the same reason I would run EE over Clasm in this build. It gives you a bit more flexibility being able to take out anything, not just creatures. I would def. play Clasm in the board for gobs, but I think EE is better MD here, it also stops random Chalices.

07-06-2007, 02:58 AM

It seems to me that Predict is not as good without Mage and Bear. It gets you closer to Thresh, but this build is not looking for thresh as much as it is just wanting to play cards and find answers.

How exactly does Meddling Mage have anything to do with Predict? If you were worried about cantrips that put cards in the yard to attain threshold, the lack of Mental Note would be worse than Predict. However, the deck still technically does want cards in the graveyard to help Tarmogoyf, so Predict has use. Plus, Predict actually puts 2 cards in hand and creates card advantage, whereas all the other cantrips do not.

Machinus

07-06-2007, 03:17 AM

How are you planning on getting those pithing needles into the graveyard without Predict anyway?

noobslayer

07-06-2007, 06:44 AM

That just sounds silly. A pithing needle in play will almost always be better than one in the graveyard. I wouldn't be too concerned about getting it into the graveyard, it is a card that likely forces to opponent to deal with it at some point in time.

luka66_6

07-06-2007, 09:53 AM

So, what is curent "best" build for metagame not full of combo?

Happy Gilmore

07-06-2007, 12:01 PM

So, what is curent "best" build for metagame not full of combo?

What would that metagame consist of? Alot of Goblins? Alot of Survival? Landstill? Loam? Narrowing it down a little would be a big help.

luka66_6

07-06-2007, 12:42 PM

What would that metagame consist of?
Yes. I am sorry that I have not given better description of my meta sooner.
Last time I was at turney it was like that:

Goblins - 3
Fish (different combinations of colors) - 4
Threshold (ugr 2, ugw 1) - 3
Aggro rock - 1
Counter Sliver - 1
RG Stax - 1
Elf combo - 1
10-land stompy - 1
RGSA - 1
Burn/Sligh - 2
Pikula - 1
Affinity - 1
Replenish combo - 1
Solidarity - 1

It is a small meta since I live in a very small country. It is usually very random but creature decks or creature/control kind are dominant.
I have been reading this thread for a long time now and I just do not know how tu tune or adopt deck to my meta since is so wierd. I mean I really like counterbalance SB plan but I do not think it will be good in my meta. Am I wrong? So I am in need of an advice from good legacy players.

Citrus-God

07-06-2007, 02:55 PM

luka66_6

07-06-2007, 03:47 PM

So your advice is to use Happy Gilmore's or Mad Zur's list with counterbalances in sb and have a shot with it? Or should list be changed for "my" meta game? If so; I would like to ask what to change?

Shugyosha

07-06-2007, 04:10 PM

Well.... lets see what Counterbalance is good against....

1 Counterslivers, 3 Threshold, 1 RGSA, 4 Fish, 1 Pikula, 1 Replenish, and 1 Solidarity.

It's good against all those decks. You should try it out, but I say you play it in the Sideboard.

It's also quite good vs. Burn/Sligh when it hits the game early.

@luka66_6: In this meta I would play Spell Snare main and Counterbalance in the board. You can exchange them for certain matches or board Counterbalance in addition to it.

Citrus-God

07-07-2007, 01:15 AM

So your advice is to use Happy Gilmore's or Mad Zur's list with counterbalances in sb and have a shot with it? Or should list be changed for "my" meta game? If so; I would like to ask what to change?

No.... that isnt what I am saying. You can run Counterbalance in the slightly more aggressive UGr list. Personally, I believe Threshold is a deck based off your personal preferences, and personality.

I know for sure the entire NoVA crew would disagree with me, but Rich Shay's views on GAT made me want to agree with him. Read what he has to say here. (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=33571.0)

I believe Threshold can be the same. The way you play affects how, and when you cast cantrips. With that in mind, I think you're better off adjusting the deck to your own play style, whether that may be more Aggressive, or more Controllish.

Here's an Aggressive list that sports Counterbalance, to show that you dont need to play the Hatfield lists to run Counterbalance in the board.

// Lands 18
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
2 Island

// Creatures 12
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quirion Dryad

// Spells 30
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Sleight of Hand
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell/Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Pyroclasm
2 Pithing Needle

// Sideboard 15
1 Open Slot, w/e you want
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroclasm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Control Magic

So here's my build. IMO, I love those random metagame slots. I love this deck, I love how I have the random 2-ofs, like Stifles, Clasms, and Needles. This deck is made entirely off my personal preferences and play style.

What I'm trying to say is, you shouldn't copy this deck list off me unless you agree with everything I say. In fact, rather than even playing this decklist, I really want you to disagree with me. I want you all to sculp the deck to your liking, but you all must be very open minded with the options you have while deckbuilding. I feel that you should really distinguish your own play style. Do you want the deck to be more consistent? Flexible? Consistent (lots of 3-4 ofs)? Broken (as in slots of 1-2 ofs)?

How do you feel about those Fire // Ice slots? How do you feel about those metagame slots? Would you rather have those metagame slots serve as the same function as the deck instead? This is all based on your personal personal preference, and play style.

luka66_6

07-07-2007, 08:53 AM

Citrus-God

07-07-2007, 03:11 PM

Well, the problem with sculping deck to my needs/play style/metagame is that I get to play very little magic. We have an legacy turnament every two months or so and that is soo little. :(
Yes I can play mws I know but it is just not the same. I like rl magic waay more.

Well.... do you have any hardcore Legacy playtest partners? If not, use your memory bank and analyze what build of Threshold you like playing most, or what decks you enjoy playing in general.

I realy like this deck and I like counterbalance sb plan but I do not play enough to be able to sculp deck efficiently myself. Well... why dont you goldfish the Nicolo's Deck, then move into goldfishing the Hatfield deck. This should give you some idea of what you like

That is why I need advices from guys like you, who play magic and this deck alot. I mean I feel too that this deck is very good for sculping but I can do it myself, at least not yet. Do you want a more aggressive, or controllish approach?

For me, personally, I play the Hatfield deck.

@Anti~American4621: How do 4 Serum Visions work for you with Quirion Dryad?Well... In an aggressive deck with Dryads, Serum Visions digs deep and allows me to chain cantrips in one turn. I'm not a big fan of the build, but I wanted to prove to people that an aggressive deck with Counterbalance in the board can be done.

Wouldn"t Portent be better avoiding late game Dryads?Well... not exactly. Portent is good if you're playing Threshold, or Predicts in the deck. When playing Portent, the majority of the time, the 3rd card is usually trash, and is usually Predicted away, or I crack a fetchland.

I see only one SDT main. I guess this is problem with lack of space MD, but is it good?It's the lack of space. But let me tell you about how amazing SDT have been. Every cantrip, or cantrip you cast, you're seeing new cards. I love seeing cards in this deck, it's how you win. Since this is Top, seeing new cards can be used as well, creating virtual card advantage, as well as insane card quality.

I do like 2 Pyroclasm main and I think it would be good in my meta. Creature decks swarming every where. I would like to ask you for your sideboarding plan for certain matches as I am very bad with sideboarding.Well.... I always side the Non-Blue Basic lands out, or side two lands out until I have 16 lands. Against Goblins, it might be a better idea not to do anything.

Here's my boaridng plan for Vial Goblins, Fish, and the miror.

Vial Goblins
Out: 4 Quirion Dryad
In: 2 Pyroclasm, 2 Ancient Grudge

Your plan here is to cycle through your cantrips finding as many Pyroclasms as possible in order to stabilize.

Fish:
Out: 1 Daze, 2 Counterspelll/Stifle, 1 Forest, 1 Quirion Dryad, 1 Nimble Mongoose, 1 Island, 1 Lightning Bolt

In: 2 Sensei's Divining Top, 3 Counterbalance, 3 Control Magic

People may think what I board out against Fish may look janky, but it's always how I board against them. I always board out cards in 1-ofs because I tend to need flexibility against them.

Threshold/Grow
Out: 4 Lightning Bolt, 2 Pithing Needle, 2 Pyroclasm
In: 3 Control Magic, 3 Counterbalance, 2 Sensei's Divining Top

It's a bit easier to board out against Thresh, since you know Lightning Bolts kinda suck against them, as well as Clasms, and Needles.

I have an idea, has anyone tried Gilded Drake insted Control magic yet?I dont think it's a very good imo, because giving your opponent an evasive beater for a Goyf is kinda bad, when you can just steal the Goyf, and not give anything back. But this is just my initial thought, you can test this card out and get back to us.

Bardo

07-07-2007, 04:18 PM

Citrus-God

07-07-2007, 04:29 PM

I just got off the phone with Rich Shay (TheAtogLord), who's playing U/G/r Thresh at Origins and is pretty much a lock for the T8 at the moment (a couple of things have to happen for him to end up 9th). I recommended Liek's T8 GP: Columbus list which he's running with, I believe, -4 Note, +1 Needle, +2 Street Wraith +1 [I forget]; -4 Werebear, +4 Tarmogoyf. He's 3-1-1 right now; beating 2 prison/control decks and Goblins, losing to IGGy Pop and drawing with his last opponent. Tarmogoyf, he says, has been obscene.

Wow.... I would think a card like Street Wraith would suck in Threshold, but I tend to forget how aggressive Threshold is by nature with Tarmogoyf. I personally think Street Wraith should be discussed.

It's nice to see him get up there in the Top tables. I hope he gets Top 8 ehh.... I bet you all Rich Shay is going to win the whole event if he gets into the Top 8. Rich Shay does not just "Top 8" an event. If he gets Top 8s, he'll have to win the whole thing.

kabal

07-07-2007, 04:36 PM

I just got off the phone with Rich Shay (TheAtogLord), who's playing U/G/r Thresh at Origins and is pretty much a lock for the T8 at the moment (a couple of things have to happen for him to end up 9th). I recommended Liek's T8 GP: Columbus list which he's running with, I believe, -4 Note, +1 Needle, +2 Street Wraith +1 [I forget]; -4 Werebear, +4 Tarmogoyf. He's 3-1-1 right now; beating 2 prison/control decks and Goblins, losing to IGGy Pop and drawing with his last opponent. Tarmogoyf, he says, has been obscene.

I have been running a list similar for about a month with great results. 2 top2 splits for 1st with a typical 16+ turnout. Anyhow, one change that I found amazing is Sleight of Hand.

Bardo

07-07-2007, 04:38 PM

Wow.... I would think a card like Street Wraith would suck in Threshold, but I tend to forget how aggressive Threshold is by nature with Tarmogoyf. I personally think Street Wraith should be discussed.

I only tested it in U/G/b Threshold a couple of months ago and thought it was bad--especially in any deck running Lightning Bolt and burn where you can count that you'll have at least one critter in someone's graveyard early on. The only thing to do is test the thing, but I wasn't too fond of it when I did.

Edit - That reminds me, Rich squeezed in a couple of Sleights, which he said were not particularly good or bad.

Citrus-God

07-07-2007, 04:57 PM

I only tested it in U/G/b Threshold a couple of months ago and thought it was bad--especially in any deck running Lightning Bolt and burn where you can count that you'll have at least one critter in someone's graveyard early on. The only thing to do is test the thing, but I wasn't too fond of it when I did.

Edit - That reminds me, Rich squeezed in a couple of Sleights, which he said were not particularly good or bad.

Sleight of Hands were alright. Personally, I'd run Portents, regardless of what people say about a card like Portent in an aggressive deck.

I think Street Wraith needs to be tested. Right now, I might stay away from it, but I still need to test it. I wasnt too happy with this deck when I was tampering with Grim Long, so I might not run it here. It's still a debatable subject.

kabal

07-07-2007, 05:12 PM

Sleight of Hands were alright. Personally, I'd run Portents, regardless of what people say about a card like Portent in an aggressive deck.

Portent doesn't make sense in an aggressive build of Ugr Gro. Sure, it allows long term setup and has synergy with Predict but this is not the strategy of the aggressive build.

You really have 2 options.

Aggressive
==============
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand

Or

Controlish
==============
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Portent
3 Predict

I think Street Wraith needs to be tested.

Since someone ran 2, count them 2 Street Wraiths in their build of Ugr Gro, you now need to test it? Who is to say he even drew them or what different they made?

Citrus-God

07-07-2007, 05:23 PM

Portent doesn't make sense in an aggressive build of Ugr Gro. Sure, it allows long term setup and has synergy with Predict but this is not the strategy of the aggressive build.

Actually, it does. Do you remember Jason Mayes's build from Legacy Champs 2k6? He ran 4 Portents, in a Mental Note build. Why? Because it maximizes the power of Daze and FoW. It's not just one or the other, it's whether you want to run Dryads or not. In this case, I chose not to run Dryads.

Besides, those two options dont make a whole lot of sense. Predict enables you to play control. Portent is just how you want to build your deck, since the decisions you have to make are to either run Dryad or not. Besides, I've seen Predicts and Portent been successful in Dryad builds, such as Roopey's Miracle Grow.

Since someone ran 2, count them 2 Street Wraiths in their build of Ugr Gro, you now need to test it? Who is to say he even drew them or what different they made?

I should get to that.

kabal

07-07-2007, 05:32 PM

It's not just one or the other, it's whether you want to run Dryads or not. In this case, I chose not to run Dryads.

I thought that is what we are talking about? He took the list that Top8'd at Columbus and swapped out Werebear for Tarmogoyf. He is running Dryad, and the point you made doesn't make sense.

MattH

07-07-2007, 07:31 PM

Anyhow, one change that I found amazing is Sleight of Hand.
THANK you. Finally Sleight gets some love.

Citrus-God

07-07-2007, 08:41 PM

I thought that is what we are talking about? He took the list that Top8'd at Columbus and swapped out Werebear for Tarmogoyf. He is running Dryad, and the point you made doesn't make sense.

Well... Portents can do well in Threshold. I know Roopey did it, and Top 8ed an event using Portents and Predicts in a Dryad list. I was thinking that could be a strong route for the deck to take.

Bardo

07-08-2007, 12:44 AM

So, Rich (AtogLord) won the Legacy event at Origins with U/G/r Threshold.

Well done, Rich!

Tarmogoyf es muy bueno.

Citrus-God

07-08-2007, 01:22 AM

So, Rich (AtogLord) won the Legacy event at Origins with U/G/r Threshold.

Well done, Rich!

Tarmogoyf es muy bueno.

umm.... CALLED IT!

Shitz, I am soo good at this. I gotta start listening to Smenen more.

Bardo

07-08-2007, 04:43 PM

Re: Rich Shay, fyi, he also won the Legacy Origins tourney in 2005 with GAT (technically, split 1st/2nd).

Re: Red Thresh. I like this deck a lot, but have to wonder about the viability of the deck if the mirror becomes popular because of Tarmogoyf.

I've played the Red/White pseudo-Thresh mirror many times, and have never once lost when playing White. Losing StP hurts badly. Also, a couple of weeks ago I lost a heart-breaker of match vs. U/G Madness and frowned deeply when looking at the bolts in my hand and the Mongel on the other side of the board...

aTn

07-08-2007, 05:19 PM

I agree with Bardo concerning the mirror match, although Fire/Ice (EDIT: and Control Magic, post-board) helps a bit against Enforcer and opposing Goyfs (but StoP is way better in that context). EDIT: Threads of Disloyalty is also nice post-board (see Liek's list); the only creature you can't gain control of being Mystic Enforcer (with Threads), which can sometimes be managed with Fire/Ice. If the mirror is less probable than the Goblins, Belcher, TES, small-sized aggro match-ups, I'd stick with UGR, otherwise I'd go with UGW.

One option could also be to splash white for StoP in the SB (UGRw-Thresh) and maybe Enforcer maindeck.

On another subject, what cards could be sided-in for the Ichoridless Ichorid match-up ? Aside from Crypt, Loaming Shaman (which might be a bit too slow) and Pyroclasm/Rolling Earthquake (in the UGR build), I don't really have a better idea right now. Sidenote: Against I. Ichorid, I tend (for now) to like the UGR build better, since you have the option to burn, say, a Dryad to remove the Bridge from Below from their graveyard.

I'm very curious as to what build Rich played and what match-ups he faced; I can't wait to read his report.

Zilla

07-08-2007, 05:57 PM

Re: Red Thresh. I like this deck a lot, but have to wonder about the viability of the deck if the mirror becomes popular because of Tarmogoyf.
As far as I can tell, this is the only reason not to run UGR Thresh over UGW Thresh in the current metagame. While UGW Thresh has classically had a better combo matchup, they both do reasonably well, patrticularly if you're (correctly) running a combination of 3-4 Stifle between the maindeck and the sideboard. While white gets Meddling Mage, red gets Pyroclasm, which is absolutely huge against all the combo decks running Empty the Warrens (read: all of them.) Pyroclasm is also extremely strong against Goblins, which, contrary to what some believe, is not a positive matchup now just because of Tarmogoyf. Goblins can still overwhelm you with uncounterable card advantage and race you with broken starts. The red splash has a better game 1 against Goblins and a far better game 2 and 3.

I would argue that UGR also has a better game against board control because its removal isn't dead, and it has more lategame reach. It doesn't get Armageddon post-board, but it does have Winter Orb as an option, which I would argue is better against board control anyway since many of them run Crucible and Loam as a means of recovery from 'geddon.

Personally, I'd rather run UGR Thresh in the modern metagame, with a teched out sideboard to answer 'goyfs in the mirror. I'm still testing possible solutions. One of them, for me, is 2 Fledgling Dragons in the main. I know it's old school, but it continues to win a great many games for me. It's stellar as a finisher in the Goblins matchup, it's fantastic in the mirror (particularly since most UGW builds have dropped Enforcer entirely), and is even decent against combo in getting past a horde of 1/1 tokens. It's also quite strong in breaking protacted stalemates on the ground against random aggro like Zoo and Friggorid.

Additionally, Bolt can be effective 'goyf removal in the early game, and in conjunction with Jet or a chump-blocking 'goose can even be effective in the lategame. Then, of course, there's the fact that you have 'goyfs of your own, which makes for a reasonable likelihood of stalling things up on the ground, at least until they find StP.

To further bolster your strategy against the mirror, I think a few SB slots are probably warranted. I've been testing a few options, but I haven't done enough yet to say anything conclusive. Some options are Vedalken Shackles, Gilded Drake, Control Magic, Submerge(!) and even Pongify. Like I said, I'm not sure what's most effective yet.

Dan, if you have some time to do some extensive mirror testing, get ahold of me.

On another subject, what cards could be sided-in for the Ichoridless Ichorid match-up ? Aside from Crypt, Loaming Shaman (which might be a bit too slow) and Pyroclasm/Rolling Earthquake (in the UGR build), I don't really have a better idea right now. Sidenote: Against I. Ichorid, I tend (for now) to like the UGR build better, since you can always burn, say, a Dryad to remove the Bridge from Below from their graveyard.
For UGR, Pyroclasm is a no-brainer. Additonally, graveyard removal in conjunction with Krosan Grip/Natualize is the way to go. Pyroclasm handily answers random zombie tokens (tpreferably before Dread Return is an option). The deck's only real defense mass graveyard removal is Leyline, which can be answered with Grip. I typically side in 4 'clasm, 3 Crypt, and 3 Grip over most of my countermagic and all of my Pithing Needles, which are essentially dead here.