[OLD] UGr Threshold

[mikekelley]

What about a 4c gro build? Ugrw. With a white splash for StP in the main and Mage in the board, it could be built to handle the goyfs running around. Granted, I think you'd have to cut 1 or 2 spells to increase manabase consistency, but it doesn't seem that unfeasible. Landstill finds a way to do it, and wasteland is becoming less and less of an issue from what I have seen.

[noobslayer]

What about a 4c gro build? Ugrw. With a white splash for StP in the main and Mage in the board, it could be built to handle the goyfs running around. Granted, I think you'd have to cut 1 or 2 spells to increase manabase consistency, but it doesn't seem that unfeasible. Landstill finds a way to do it, and wasteland is becoming less and less of an issue from what I have seen.

Wasteland isn't a huge format issue, but it is still relevant as it seems to be a mainstay in goblins. To everyone wanting to discuss a 4c Gro build, please leave this thread for 3c Gro. It will begin to get confusing otherwise.

[aTn]

A quick question (which was raised earlier by Bardo and Anti~American4621): Should Street Wraith be included in the tempo build of UGR-Threshold (considering, say, Liek's list) ?

It helps beefing up Tarmogoyf, but I'm not sure if it's that good (I might be wrong since I haven't tested it). I can see Wraith's value in a deck running tutors like Mystical Tutor and Enlightened Tutor but I can't see why I'd play it in tempo-UGR-Threshold. I'd rather have more cantrips (say 4 Brainstorm, 4 Serum Visions, 3 Sleigh of Hand, 3 Mental Note) or more burn maindeck.

How many copies of Street Wraith should be played and what should be taken out to make place for them ? For now, I can't see what I'd take out (from Liek's list) except for -1 Stifle, -1 Pithing Needle, + 2 Street Wraith. Ideas ?

P.S.: Does anyone have more info concerning Origins ?

[The Atog Lord]

I wrote up a small report about the tournament in the tournament section of these boards. I give the list there, but I basically cut the 4 Mental Notes for a Wraith, 2 Sleights, and a Pithing Needle. I also think the Red was much better than White would have been, because it races much better. The details are in the report.

[Zilla]

A quick question (which was raised earlier by Bardo and Anti~American4621): Should Street Wraith be included in the tempo build of UGR-Threshold (considering, say, Liek's list) ?
If it pitched to FoW it might be worth consideration, but it does not, and hence I can't think of anything I'd want to replace with it. It would basically be filling a cantrip slot and:

- Brainstorm is just better
- Serum Visions also pumps 'goyf by being one of your only sorceries
- Mental Note builds Thresh faster, also has synergy with 'goyf, and doesn't cost you valuable life that may be clutch in winning the Goblins or Zoo matchups

In short, what would you drop for it? I want a full 8 burn spells for removal and reach. I want at least 10 counters. I want Pithing Needles. I want 4 'goose and 4 'goyf at least. So where would you make room? I'm pretty sure I'm against it. In my experience, Wraith is only good in decks where there's simply nothing better to put in that slot. Namely, in RG Belcher without the black splash for Dark Ritual, and maybe straight Burn.

[Machinus]

Atog Lord commented that running just one Wraith is worth the trade of two life for a card and an extra +1/+1 on your Tarmogoyfs. There are indeed matchups where there aren't going to be any creatures in the graveyard, and the first cycled Wraith pumps your guys.

Running one-ofs in Legacy has been hard to justify sometimes, but there are definitely circumstances where it makes sense. In a deck like this it is just another cantrip with a different card type, and running only one of them ensures you won't have to pay more life than you want to.

[Citrus-God]

I think 4c Threshold can work. I hate the idea of 4c, but I already got around to it. I like the list a lot so far. It's based off Helmut's list he used to win GP Lille, and a little influence from Jason Mayes's list.


// Lands 18
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
1 Breedng Pool
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island


// Creatures 12
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Meddling Mage


// Spells 30
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Serum Visions
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire // Ice
2 Pithing Needle


// Sideboard 15
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Chill/Pyroclasm (whatever works, I say Clasm)
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Stifle
3 Control Magic

Sideboard still needs some work. I like the list a lot so far. Right now, IMO, it's a bit of Hatfield, a bit of Mental Note... without the Mental Note of course. I love chaining cantrips with that list (even though it wont last long, it's still worth the investment), and the deck is very aggressive. I think this list should be looked into.

@Machinus: Thats a very interesting view. It reminds me of Bardo's random EE, which did tons of things for him by solving random situations the deck normally cant solve. I dont know how many times I rip EE off the top just to answer EtW.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Everyone seems to be discussing more aggressive lists lately, which is understandable given how good Tarmogoyf can be early in the game. However, I haven't really seen any lists that take this idea as far as it can go.

I have always built Gro/Threshold to take maximum advantage of the quality of its cards through card manipulation. I still think this philosophy leads to an extremely effective deck (possibly the best deck in the format right now), but with the advent of Tarmogoyf and the discussion of a more aggressive, tempo-oriented philosophy being applied to the archetype, I figured I would be remiss not to give it a try myself.

Zur and I have each had success with this deck in our small local tournaments, and testing results seem to indicate its competitiveness, as well.

Legacy TurboGro
//20
4x Brainstorm
4x Portent
4x Mental Note
4x Mishra's Bauble
4x Street Wraith

//12
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Quirion Dryad

//12
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Force of Will
4x Daze

//16
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
1x Island

This is "aggressive" Gro/Threshold taken to the extreme. I suppose it plays something like UG Madness, but with superior creatures and access to burn. It actually has a consistent turn-five goldfish, which means it's basically a Zoo deck with Force of Will and Daze.

The drawback, of course, is that games can quickly go sour beyond the early turns. This deck is clearly at its best in the early game, with every single one of its cards coming online by turn 3, and many of its cards being underwhelming topdecks later than that.

The cantrip base is what makes this deck work, and what separates it from less dedicated aggressive lists. Twenty cantrips is an awful lot, but eight of them are free, so you never actually waste mana playing excess draw spells (a complaint some have expressed about playing 16 traditional cantrips). What Bauble and Wraith do, aside from helping to grow Tarmogoyfs, is allow you to go through more cards within the first two turns than you can with any other deck. I am never unhappy to see them, at least in an opening hand.

Some might find Portent more questionable than Wraith or Bauble. As some have said, the fact that Portent is a slowtrip is more relevant when you are trying to apply pressure, and it can potentially hinder the growth of a Dryad. This deck even runs four more slowtrips (the Baubles), to exacerbate this problem. However, Portent has an important advantage over every other cantrip (including even Brainstorm): it is the absolute best at setting up your second turn. First-turn Portent digs the deepest for your second land, a Force or Daze to stop your opponent's first threatening play, or a creature to play on the second turn. It can even accomplish more than one of these at once (especially if you have a Street Wraith or a Bauble). Really, though, it can hardly be stressed enough how badly this deck wants a creature in play on turn two of every single game, so that alone probably makes Portent better than, say, Sleight of Hand.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, I think Mental Note is the weakest of the cantrips, although it isn't bad in a deck as fast as this. The problem with it is that Nimble Mongoose is the only threshold creature, and the deck usually gets plenty of cards into the yard, anyway. Note does speed the deck up on average, though, and that's why it's there.

Quirion Dryad could become Werebear, which would make better use of Mental Note, and probably make the deck stronger overall, but the increased reliance on the graveyard would make graveyard hate truly worrisome (imagine if you could triple-time walk a Zoo deck with a zero-mana artifact). Dryad is also important as a way to punch through opposing Tarmogoyfs, and she's usually as fast as or faster than a Werebear would be. She sure sucks against Goblins, though.

This deck would benefit from more than four Bolts, but I don't know what to trim, yet. If I do find a few open slots, they'll likely go to either Chain Lightning or Seal of Fire (for Tarmogoyf). Fire/Ice and Magma Jet don't make the cut because they are too inefficient.

So, if you like the idea of going beatdown with Tarmogoyf, I think this deck probably does that as well as any, so give it a try. At the very least, I can assure you it is a blast to play.

[The Atog Lord]

As for Mental Note, I cut it and didn't really miss it at all. Getting to Threshold for the Goose might have taken a bit longer some games, but he grew up when he needed to, and having the extra card types was nice.

[Citrus-God]

Speaking of Tarmogoyf and Aggression....

I think we should build a deck that can shift gears. It plays beatdown when it needs to, and it plays control when it needs to. You play cantrips, so this should be easy to accomplish. Deciding which cards should go in is something we have to discuss. Good good example of a deck that can switch roles or play different roles early are Salvagers Game, and perhaps Meandeck Gifts.

So here's a deckbuilding challenge for all of you, involving cantrips and Tarmogoyf.

It must meet some of these requirements.


1. It can play beatdown or control, depending on the situation.
2. It runs a mix of control and threats.
3. It must run cantrips.

Okay, those are standard ThreshGro requirements, but I still think you should all think about this deckbuilding challenge and what I am trying to accomplish here. We're tampering with a card called Tarmogoyf. When we could play Control, we want to go all-out in aggression. What I am trying to say here is that, with the printing of Goyf, we could just as easily play control when we want/need to, or play aggro when we want/need to.

[Machinus]

Everyone seems to be discussing more aggressive lists lately, which is understandable given how good Tarmogoyf can be early in the game....I have always built Gro/Threshold to take maximum advantage of the quality of its cards through card manipulation. I still think this philosophy leads to an extremely effective deck

Isn't there a balance in the middle?

This isn't an aggro deck, and it's not a control deck. It's best when it can be whatever it needs to be to beat the other deck. In terms of design, doesn't this just push one towards running the most versatile cards, and eliminating the potential for weak draws when you need something? Slowtrips are one example of this, as are situational counters.

I don't have an opinion about this or an optimal list (Threshold currently has so many design possibilities that I really don't know which version is best), but I think answering the design question could make a big difference in terms of optimizing the deck.

[Citrus-God]

Isn't there a balance in the middle?

Well, it is Aggro-Control AKA Tempo. Of course, Tempo is an approach to the deck, it's Aggro-Control still.



This isn't an aggro deck, and it's not a control deck. It's best when it can be whatever it needs to be to beat the other deck.Which is why Tarmogoyf is so great. It doesnt need to delute itself by running cards like Mental Note, which enables you to play only one role.



In terms of design, doesn't this just push one towards running the most versatile cards, and eliminating the potential for weak draws when you need something?Reasons why Cantrips are ran.


Slowtrips are one example of this, Portent doesnt count. It actually synergizes with the deck, so I hope you're refering to Baubles.


as are situational counters.I agree, but since decks like CRET Belcher and TES are popping up in tons of metagames, I think Stifles would be a good metagame call.


I don't have an opinion about this or an optimal list (Threshold currently has so many design possibilities that I really don't know which version is best), but I think answering the design question could make a big difference in terms of optimizing the deck. Thank you, I feel like someone is listening to me.

Machinus, will you go out with me? You're the only one who listens to me.

j/k :laugh:

But thanks for endorsing the design question.

[luka66_6]

How about puting 4 Phyrexian Dreadnoughts in Quirion Dryad slots? I play 3 Stifles main so I just need to find space for 2-3 Trickbinds. I mean it is a two turn clock, can not be chump blocked, it fits the curve very well and if it is dealt with we still have 4 Tarmogoyf and Geeses. In addition it pumps Goyf for +2/2 if it hits the yard or if it gets sworded we gain at least two possibly 3 turns.
Thoughts?

[aTn]

To my knowledge, originally, Phyrexian Dreadnought's ability was written as a triggered ability; now, the wording goes along the lines of a replacement effect (which cannot be Stifled). Illusionnary Mask seems like the only "good" way of getting a Dreadnought on the board...

[Lego]

To my knowledge, originally, Phyrexian Dreadnought's ability was written as a triggered ability; now, the wording goes along the lines of a replacement effect (which cannot be Stifled). Illusionnary Mask seems like the only "good" way of getting a Dreadnought on the board...

Check again. With the release of 10th and the Gatherer update involved, they removed the power-level errata on Dreadnought. He can be stifled now.

That's still not a reason to play him. He requires two cards, which in and of itself is, I think, a good reason not to play him.

[aTn]

Thanks for the update Lego, I was not aware of an errata on P. Dreadnought. I'm not sure I'd play it in UGR-Threshold for the same reason as you; it might be good in a deck with more cards dedicated to assemble the "combo" (e.g. Mystical Tutor, Enlightened Tutor, etc.).

[Maveric78f]

I agree that dreadnought should be given a try. At worst, it's a +2/+2 pumper of the tarmogoyf for 1. However, I would play 4*stifle and
2/4*trickbind to be able to play it.

I think that threshold is the only deck in which dreadnought might find its place, because the combo is to easy to disrupt (STP, bounce, disenchant, ...) and not lethal enough to justify a whole deck based on it. However, in an existing deck such as threshold, it's a very good alternative big threat.

Creatures (11)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tharmogoyf
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought

Cantrip (whatever you want to call them) (10)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Mental Note

Control, etc. (14)
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Daze
2 Trickbind

Burn, etc. (8)
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire/Ice
2 Magma Jet

Mana (17)
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island

[BoardinCharlie]

I'm not sure I would want to play a creature requiring two cards that dies so easily. STP and artifact hate in any form are rampant in this format. On top of that the only hard counter you run is force which is already a 2 for 1...I could possibly see this in the white version if you wish, but I don't think its in your favor to set up the deck according to this one creature when tarmogoyf is holding fort quite well with the creature base.

On a side note has any one playtested Seal of Fire as a two or three of? In my testing this almost has helped my goblins match up *I did testing with seal and chain lightning*. It gets around wastelands/ports if played early and can sit on the board to pluck off warchiefs/piledrivers/confidants/etc. The onlly draw back i have seen playing with it is when I'm facing an opponent with deed which needles have taken care of 50/50. I'm currently running 4x bolt, 4x jet, and 3x Seal. Granted its only adding 3 enchantments to my deck but its still a boost which hasn't caused me too many drawbacks.

[aTn]

I prefer not playing Phyrexian Dreadnought and siding-in Threads of Disloyalty against decks playing it. As for Seal of Fire, I've tested it and frankly I found that 4 Bolt + 3-4 Fire/Ice were enough burn to win game 1 against Goblins. I don't think this match-up justifies the need for the Seals of Fire (especially post-board when you have 4 Pyroclam coming in).

[Maveric78f]

And if I play 2*fling instead of the 2 Trickbind (or 2 magma jets) ? Dealing 12 dmg is not that stupid, moreover it's not relying on any graveyard.

[BoardinCharlie]

The purpose of possiblly adding in seals of fire was to enhance the power of the goyf while being able to pluck off goblins or creatures. It's just another spell type that's an investment more than an answer. You throw out the seal early and a players life total is assumed to be -2 while you have the ability to throw it at creatures as well.

I know the deck handles goblins well already, but some people have stated that chain lightning is better since it hits for one more and this addition was warranted to increase the sorcery amount to aid in goyf pump. Adding either 3 sorceries or 3 enchantments still aids goyf the same, and in some situations more. Also the ability to sac at instant speed has been more beneficial than the extra point of dmg that chain lightning adds.

[aTn]

As far as Chain Lightning goes, I have tried it and liked it, but for meta considerations, I'd rather go with something like 4 Bolts, 3-4 Fire/Ice. I really like the ability to tap a fattie (which tends to be useful in my neck of the woods) or a blocker to make my creatures connect (which in general inflict more damage than Chain Lightning; but this is not an argument against Chain, it's just a justification for Fire/Ice).

@BoardinCharlie: What would be your decklist with Seal of Fire maindeck? I'm curious as to what you'd cut to fit them in. More and more people are starting to play either EtW decks or decks packing EE (to get rid of tokens and Goyfs) in my meta, so I would not cut Stifle or Needles in the main. The only choice I see is changing the burn suite; I like it the way it is, but hey, that's just personal taste mixed with metagame concerns.

[BoardinCharlie]

Recently I just revamped the deck to suit my meta and did what you said and fooled around with the burn counts. I decided to run the stifles in the side board of my build since I find more overall use for EE in the main as my meta controlling slot.

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Nimble
4x Force
3x Daze
2x Counterspell
4x Serum Visions
4x Brainstorm
4x Mental Note
2x Engineered Explosives
3x Needle
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Mamga Jet
2x Seal of Fire
17x Land *working with mana base to get more red*

The Seal of fire seems random, but it has tossed some games around. I'm still working with it, but I haven't run into a situation where its "bad"...against heavy discard it sticks around to hit a negator/confidant/hippie/etc. Only situation it has somewhat sucked is when I'm digging for a burn with brainstorm to pluck off a piledriver or warchief. I was possibly thinking of using pyrite spell bomb to stop pro redders or cycling, but dont like how it costs mana to activate.

[Citrus-God]

Deck needs tons of work Charlie. First thing, you're lacking threats. This is bad for the mirror match, or just against Aggro-Control mirrors in general really.

I know Goyf is awesome, but to tell the truth, Seal of Fire isnt really needed here. I'd rather see more Werebears or Dryads in that slot. You run Mental Note, you're only running it for Goose's sake. Run Bears. If you feel Bears are weak on their own, run some more Burn (which mades the argument for Seal of Fire valid) to kill a Goyf with.

But honestly, stop running more Burn just to blow up small fries. You might want something like Stifle and stop bombs. Goblins doesnt care if you blow up the Warcheif or Piledriver. They're bait. They just want Matrons, Ringleaders, and SGCs to resolve.

[Hanni]

U/G/r Gro

Lands (17)
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Creatures (12)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quirion Dryad

Spells (31)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet

Sideboard (15)
3 Stifle
2 Krosan Grip
3 Rolling Earthquake
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
2 Vedalken Shackles

This is the build I enjoy playing when I run red Thresh. It's extremely aggressive with the 4th Daze and the additional burn. I used to run Werebear but I hated Mental Note. Mental Note is necessary with Mongoose and Werebear for aggression but it provided absolutely no card quality. With Dryad and Sleight, I get better card selection. Dryad is also very good against the mirror/w, because although than can StP it, it's still able to grow larger than most of their guys. Not only that, it renders grave hate from the opposing side alot less effective (like Loaming Shaman).

I was considering Fire//Ice in the Chain Lightning spots, but decided on Chain Lightning. Tapping a guy down with Fire//Ice is great, don't get me wrong. Drawing a card on top of that is also very nice. The reason I like Chain Lightning better is for quite a few reasons. First of all, it's a sorcery, which synergizes with Goyf. I also like the fact that it's 1cc... it gives me additional speed early game for playing guys and burning blockers. It's also nice against board control decks, since the extra 1 point of damage helps kill them faster. Fire//Ice does pitch to Force but I do run 20 blue spells, which works well enough. Tapping down fatties like opposing Tarmogoy's is also cool if I have my opponent low on life... however, I'd probably rather just kill it with Fire. In that scenario, it's no better than Chain Lightning.

[BoardinCharlie]

@ Anti-American- Currenlty I run the stifles in the sideboard, my meta is filled with a bagillion random aggro decks consisting of angel stompy /w worship to R/G zilla stompy to any from of Confidant. This is also the reason I enjoy EE in the main, I agree with you on the idea the deck needs some work with counts but at the same time I feel that it meets my meta's necessities. I just like the more addition of burn because it gives me the added push I need against those decks that negators main and perishes in the board*reason I don't like dryad right now*. I'm pretty sure we played at the same places *shinders/dreamers/monster den* so you know how random the meta is and aggro shifted.

@Hanni- I think I'm going to try out Slieght of Hand/Chain Lightning again to up my sorcery count, mental note in my build was strictly to pull of more goyf combat tricks and fast thresh isn't enough of a reason to blindly mill threats/burn off the top of my deck. The more I play with it though just makes it less of a suprise to my opponents.

[Citrus-God]

@ Anti-American- Currenlty I run the stifles in the sideboard, my meta is filled with a bagillion random aggro decks consisting of angel stompy /w worship to R/G zilla stompy to any from of Confidant. This is also the reason I enjoy EE in the main, I agree with you on the idea the deck needs some work with counts but at the same time I feel that it meets my meta's necessities. I just like the more addition of burn because it gives me the added push I need against those decks that negators main and perishes in the board*reason I don't like dryad right now*. I'm pretty sure we played at the same places *shinders/dreamers/monster den* so you know how random the meta is and aggro shifted.

It's a bit more calculated now. I played at Epic Cards & Games, and that place was filled with RG CRET Belcher and WUb Fish. Monster Den is always filled with Threshold. I always had no idea who to blame, me or the meta for making the meta.

If your metagame is infested with decks with big creatures, why are you not running White? You can run UGw Thresh with MDed Jotun Grunts against everything in that meta. Besides that, I dont think this was really discussed about, considering Jotun Grunt is soo good against Tarmogoyf. This isnt much of a Combat Trick, but this is more of a matter of board dominance.

[BoardinCharlie]

When I mentioned aggro I didn't mean so much as big creatures I literally meant random aggro like River Boa, lava mancers and watchwolfs...just random stuff like that. White doesn't have as good as a game against goblins I feel and I like playing the version that beats goblins cause any nub can pick up goblins and get a god draw, yes any nub can pick up random aggro...but those decks don't pack creatures that draw them multiple cards lol.

[Citrus-God]

When I mentioned aggro I didn't mean so much as big creatures I literally meant random aggro like River Boa, lava mancers and watchwolfs...just random stuff like that. White doesn't have as good as a game against goblins I feel and I like playing the version that beats goblins cause any nub can pick up goblins and get a god draw, yes any nub can pick up random aggro...but those decks don't pack creatures that draw them multiple cards lol.

Well... it's pre-board game against Goblins is still bad.... Post-board, it has Pyroclasm.

But if you're up against random stuff like River Boa and such, you really should look into White. Of course, if you want to beat up random aggro, just run Maindecked Pyroclasms. I cant believe people dont do this, it's reach and board control.

Also, popularity in Goblins is somewhat on the decline, with the rise of Combo. Maindeck Stifles would be good, since they hit Goblins and Combo.

Of course, I had a list in my head if you want Game against random aggro, Goblins, and such...


// Lands 17
4 Flooded Strand
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
2 Island


// Creatures 10
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Fledgling Dragon


// Spells 33
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Portent
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Pyroclasm
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle


// Sideboard 15
1 Plateau
2 Pyroclasm
3 Ancient Grudge/2 Ancient Grudge, and 1 Meddling Mage
3 Control Magic
3 Meddling Mage
3 Jotun Grunt


I want to win mirror matches. MDed Dragons, yes. You have 12 1cc cantrips, you should be able to find the lands to play Dragon. If they do throw Wasteland at you, it's going to be thrown at your Trops.

[BoardinCharlie]

Nothing against your deck building, but we play the UGr versions a bit different. Only 4 burns spells just sounds awful to me in any environment. Also I dislike using RR on my turn...its just asking goblins to overwhelm you with drivers/warchiefs. I revamped my UGr build a bit the advice from Hanni and taken in some advice from you.

So here goes nothing:

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Nimble Mongoose
3x Qurion Dryad

4x Brainstorm
4x Serum Visions
4x Sleight of hand

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
2x Counterspell

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Magma Jet
2x Chain Lightning

2x Pithing Needle

4x Flooded Strand
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
1x Island
1x Forest
1x Mountain

SB:
3x Disrupt
3x Engineered Explosives
3x Stifle
3x Pyroclasm/Rolling earthquake *haven't decided completely*
3x Krosan Grip

Sideboard counts will most likely change with more testing, but I feel that the main board stepped up a notch. It's suprising how many people give me the "WTF" look when dryad hits the table and the by the it comes back to my combat step its about a 5/5. I chose Sleight of hand over portent now and its showing great results contrary to thought, chain cantrips with dryad are orsm.

[Citrus-God]

Nothing against your deck building, but we play the UGr versions a bit different. Only 4 burns spells just sounds awful to me in any environment. Also I dislike using RR on my turn...its just asking goblins to overwhelm you with drivers/warchiefs. I revamped my UGr build a bit the advice from Hanni and taken in some advice from you.

My problem has never been the Warcheifs or the Piledrivers.... it's always been the Ringleaders, Matrons, and SGCs.


SB:
3x Disrupt
3x Engineered Explosives
3x Stifle
3x Pyroclasm/Rolling earthquake *haven't decided completely*
3x Krosan Grip

Cut Disrupt, they suck, even against Black decks, you already have a favorable match up. You said you were paranoid about Goblins, why dont you do this....

-3 Disrupt
-1 Krosan Grip

+1 Pyroclasm
+1 Engineered Explosives
+2 Ancient Grudge



Sideboard counts will most likely change with more testing, but I feel that the main board stepped up a notch. It's suprising how many people give me the "WTF" look when dryad hits the table and the by the it comes back to my combat step its about a 5/5. I chose Sleight of hand over portent now and its showing great results contrary to thought, chain cantrips with dryad are orsm.

Roopey made a deck with Portents, and Predicts, but it runs Watchwolves, Jotun Grunts, and Dryads as well as 3 Umezawa's Jittes. That deck did quite well, and it Top 8ed a Dual for Duals. I just wanted to throw that out there, since his deck was always underlooked, and everyone hated Portent with Dryad.

[aTn]

I'd go with something like:

SB:
4x Stifle
4x Pyroclasm/Rolling earthquake
1x Pithing Needle
2x Krosan Grip
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Threads of Disloyalty/Control Magic

Against combo decks like Cret Belcher, TES, etc., I like having 4 Stifles and 3 Needles (and 4 Pyroclasm) post-board.

The choice between Threads of Disloyalty and Control Magic depends on your meta; are fatties with more than 2 cc abundant where you play ?

The main reason I run EE in UGW-Thresh is to get rid of CotV@1,2, Goblin (Empty the Warrens) and Zombie (Bridge from Below) tokens. Having access to Pyroclasm and Ancient Grudge seems enough to deal with these threats (in my experience anyways, maybe yours differs).

If Jitte is common in your meta and if enchantments like Pernicious Deed, Worship, etc. are played, I'd definitely run 2x Krosan Grip in the SB.

Tormod's Crypt could also go in there if Ichoridless Ichorid is played.

Rolling Earthquake (sometimes) permits you to win by burning you opponent. Because of match-ups like Goblins, where you don't necessarily always want to burn yourself, I'd probably go with 2x R.E. and 2x Pyroclasm (if only I could find some R.E.).

These are just suggestions, hope they help a bit.

[BoardinCharlie]

@ Anti-American- The more I look at it the more I see how much disrupt isn't the hotness in most situations. I probably will change it to finish off my explosives. I meant that I just wanted a little bit more of an edge game one against goblins...post board I had better win since clasm is available *or Rquake*. Either way thanks a bunch for the help and tweaking. I used to run UGW, and I know its superior match ups and not so hot ones, but I just wanted to change it up for a bit and wait until I finish off my foil decklist. Call me a dork, but its just a hobby I get with tier 1 decks.

[aTn]

It's as if my previous post was done with invisible ink. I'll ask again: Is EE relevant MD or in the SB for UGR-Thresh in the current metagame (if we assume Pyroclasm, Stifle, K.Grip/A.Grudge are run in the SB) ? In particular, why would someone want 4 EE in the SB when we already have enough answers to tokens (Goblins and Zombies) and CotV. The only reason I see to put EE in the SB these days is if you expect the mirror match or Fishesque decks; but then again, if you play Threads of Disloyalty, you can steal opposing Goyfs/Dryads/Serra Avengers/etc. instead of blowing them up. I guess its a question of taste. I prefer fresh meat (I don't really know what I mean by that).

[Happy Gilmore]

It's as if my previous post was done with invisible ink. I'll ask again: Is EE relevant MD or in the SB for UGR-Thresh in the current metagame (if we assume Pyroclasm, Stifle, K.Grip/A.Grudge are run in the SB) ? In particular, why would someone want 4 EE in the SB when we already have enough answers to tokens (Goblins and Zombies) and CotV. The only reason I see to put EE in the SB these days is if you expect the mirror match or Fishesque decks; but then again, if you play Threads of Disloyalty, you can steal opposing Goyfs/Dryads/Serra Avengers/etc. instead of blowing them up. I guess its a question of taste. I prefer fresh meat (I don't really know what I mean by that).


your points are well made. And personally yes, I see no reason to run EE in the SB or MD at this time. The one card I would like to fit in again is Crypt, with decks like Cephalid Breakfast and Ichorid running around it is becoming better and better.

[Citrus-God]

your points are well made. And personally yes, I see no reason to run EE in the SB or MD at this time. The one card I would like to fit in again is Crypt, with decks like Cephalid Breakfast and Ichorid running around it is becoming better and better.

Leyline of the Void looks like hell to deal with for them. If I were to fit in something that just lets you win, Leylines are best. If they attempt to bounce the Leyline, you bought yourself some time to set up counterbalance so that you can either protect Leyline or just demolish their combo in general though. However, with all the AEther Vial running around, I think Ancient Grudge is more important than ever.

[Bane of the Living]

Leyline of the Void looks like hell to deal with for them. If I were to fit in something that just lets you win, Leylines are best. If they attempt to bounce the Leyline, you bought yourself some time to set up counterbalance so that you can either protect Leyline or just demolish their combo in general though. However, with all the AEther Vial running around, I think Ancient Grudge is more important than ever.

So your plan is to mulligan to LotV or risk drawing it dead? Ichorid and I assume CB are both able to fight against Leyline. I wouldnt risk the terrible sideboard change.

[Citrus-God]

So your plan is to mulligan to LotV or risk drawing it dead? Ichorid and I assume CB are both able to fight against Leyline. I wouldnt risk the terrible sideboard change.

Thresh is pretty damn consistent already with opening hands already. I dont want to sound condesending, but Thresh right now sure as hell doesnt care with it's opening hands as long as a Land and a cantrips is there. Mulligans dont hurt this deck much. When I play the deck, all I need is a 1cc cantrip in the opening hand. It's not a big risk when you have 12 1cc cantrips. But this is against Breakfast.

Against Ichorid, I would still side Leylines in, just not Counterbalance. Like I said, I dont care much about Mulligans as long as I get those things I want, and thats why the deck is so consistent. I almost never mulligan with the deck, and that is why I do well in my rounds all the time.

[Bane of the Living]

Against Ichorid, I would still side Leylines in, just not Counterbalance. Like I said, I dont care much about Mulligans as long as I get those things I want, and thats why the deck is so consistent. I almost never mulligan with the deck, and that is why I do well in my rounds all the time.

I still think its pretty goofy to drop Leyline in a non black deck just be have a stronger narrower answer. Its not like your playing in Flash era where you need that turn 0 solution.

Counterbalance is pretty terrible against Ichorid since the only thing it stops is Therapy. Dread Return and Deep Analysis are too high of cc and lets not forget they dont even need to play a spell to kill you.

[Citrus-God]

I still think its pretty goofy to drop Leyline in a non black deck just be have a stronger narrower answer. Its not like your playing in Flash era where you need that turn 0 solution.

Well... I actually believe Leylines are better than Crypts because Leylines just win you the game right there, and Crypts need a specific timing for it to be right.


Counterbalance is pretty terrible against Ichorid since the only thing it stops is Therapy. Dread Return and Deep Analysis are too high of cc and lets not forget they dont even need to play a spell to kill you.

I agree.

[Bovinious]

Leyline isnt "gg" for Ichorid if they know it's there, they have SB Emerald Charm and Chain of Vapor. If your going to mull to Leyline you might not draw counters or much of anything, giving Ichorid time to find its answer. Of course if you draw Leyline, counters, and a clock Ichorid will lose, but that draw would prolly be hard for Ichorid if that was a Crypt also. Sure Leyline is harder to deal with than Crypt, but I dont think putting Leyline into a non-black deck just to increase your Ichorid matchup is smart, unless your meta is overflowing with it. Like Bane said, this isnt Flash were dealing with.

[Citrus-God]

Leyline isnt "gg" for Ichorid if we know its there, we have SB Emerald Charm and Chain of Vapor. If your going to mull to Leyline you might not draw counters or much of anything, giving Ichorid time to find its answer. Of course if you draw Leyline, counters, and a clock Ichorid will lose, but that draw would prolly be hard for Ichorid if that was a Crypt also. Sure Leyline is harder to deal with than Crypt, but I dont think putting Leyline into a non-black deck just to increase your Ichorid matchup is smart, unless your meta is overflowing with it. Like Bane said, this isnt Flash were dealing with.

I could test Crypt again. My problem is that both decks can side in Needles. I can still test Crypt....

[zulander]

Here's the list I'm currently working with.

Creatures : 11
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Fledgling Dragon

Disruption : 20
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
2 Counterspell
3 Stifle
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

Draw : 12
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand

Mana : 17
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island

Side : 15
4 Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pithing Needle


The sideboard needs some work, and the fire/ice slot is up in the air, but it's been fairly effective. Any comments/criticisms?

[Bovinious]

I could test Crypt again. My problem is that both decks can side in Needles. I can still test Crypt....

Yes they can SB Needle vs Crypt, but they also have Chain of Vapor/Emerald Charm for Leyline. Ichorid can answer either one, but I think its safer to use the ones you can actually cast and dont need to mull to, even if Leyline is a bit more crippling.

[Citrus-God]

Yes they can SB Needle vs Crypt, but they also have Chain of Vapor/Emerald Charm for Leyline. Ichorid can answer either one, but I think its safer to use the ones you can actually cast and dont need to mull to, even if Leyline is a bit more crippling.

So is this another reason for Ancient Grudge to be better? I think it is. Right now, the SB looks tight right now, but cutting Control Magic for it can be the right move.

[zulander]

I like Krosan Grip more than Anceint Grudge, a lot more.

[aTn]

I like Krosan Grip more than Ancient Grudge, a lot more.

Why ?

Here's my opinion on the subject (based on personal experience):

I like Krosan Grip against decks that can play CotV@1 + CotV@2 fast (it happened to me a couple of times against good Faerie Stompy players). Split Second is nice against Jitte, Vial, Tormod's Crypt (when it comes into play midgame or lategame). Of course there is no comparison possible with A. Grudge when it comes to enchantment removal (Leyline of the Void, Worship, Solitary Confinement, etc.)...

Ancient Grudge is nuts against Goblins; in my experience, I often found myself destroying CotV@1 and flashbacking A. Grudge to get rid of their Vial. It's also (obviously) really good against Affinity (I see the deck a lot online these days). I also like A. Grudge against Faerie Stompy (removing equipment, Chrome Mox, CotV when possible - i.e. if they don't lock you out of A. Grudge with CotV@1+CotV@2 as mentioned above, etc.).

In conclusion, these days I like 2 x Ancient Grudge and 2 x Krosan Grip in my SB.

I'm really thinking of removing Control Magic/Threads of Disloyalty from my SB, but that makes the random fattie match-up a bit scarier (I still play 3 Fire/Ice MD).

[zulander]

I like grip more because your opponent can't respond to it, this is crucial against goblins/affinity/enchantress.

[Adan]

I like grip more because your opponent can't respond to it, this is crucial against goblins/affinity/enchantress.

Yes, and it's also useful against Enchtantments.

Here are some Hypes against which Krosan Grip is good for:

1. 4color landstill. P.Deed gets raped by Krosan Grip. Through 8 Counters.

2. Counterbalance Engine. Even though no one in America maindecks Counterbalance (why not????) Krosan Grip is also good to handle CB because it got Split Second and with CC3, it's safer because not many Deck which run Counterbalance have a lot of CC3 cards, so it have to be a sharp thinking player or a lucksack.

3. Chalices can be handled easier.

4. Some of you are only running Sensei's Divining Tops without Counterbalance. In some situations, Gripping a SDT can be important since it will take the long-term-CQ away from your opponent.

5. Solitary Confinement, to which NQG loses automatically when you don't have a FoW or if you don't run Repeal.

Having grudges instead of Krosan grip automatically means that you can't do ANYTHING against Enchantments except of countering them. And I would never rely onto counters so much.

And it can't be countered when not running CB!!!111oneoneone

And that should be the biggest reason.

[Citrus-God]

Has everyone forgot that people play a 2/2 split between Grudge and Grip?

[Gui]

Not really important, but, can't u guys actualise the first page List for a tarmo list? xD

[Adan]

Has everyone forgot that people play a 2/2 split between Grudge and Grip?

Not really since it won't bring any advantages.

[aTn]

Has everyone forgot that people play a 2/2 split between Grudge and Grip?


Not really since it won't bring any advantages.

Do you mean that playing the 2-2 split between A. Grudge and K. Grip doesn't bring any advantages ?

If that's what you mean, then I totally disagree with you. Just read the previous posts and you'll find many examples that justify the need for both. Anyhow, you can conclude what you want - it's your personal choice, but as far as I'm concerned I'll continue playing 2 A.G + 2 K.G. in my sideboard.

What cards can be considered as the base of the SB ?

Personally I'd say:
4 Pyroclasm
2 K.G.
2 A.G.
x Pithing Needle (depending on the MD and metagame)
y Stifle (depending on the MD and metagame)

[noobslayer]

Some form of yard hate or the counter-top plan seems to be popular these days as well.

[Citrus-God]

Not really since it won't bring any advantages.

aTn said it right I guess.

[Lego]

Some form of yard hate or the counter-top plan seems to be popular these days as well.

I haven't been playing yard hate at all, but with the rise of Ichorid I'd probably consider it. I think Crypt is probably the right choice here.

[georgjorge]

Here's the list I'm currently working with.

Creatures : 11
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Fledgling Dragon

Disruption : 20
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
2 Counterspell
3 Stifle
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

Draw : 12
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand

Mana : 17
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island

Side : 15
4 Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pithing Needle


The sideboard needs some work, and the fire/ice slot is up in the air, but it's been fairly effective. Any comments/criticisms?

Three Dragon seems definitely like one, maybe two too many. Also, I would add the fourth Daze before adding any Counterspell maindeck. 4 Fire/Ice seems too many as well. The Stifles main...I'm not a fan of them, but a lot of people are running them, so maybe they are ok. And, as mentioned above, running a 2/1 or 1/2 split between Grip and Grudge is better than 3/0.

By the way...I find that one Isochrone Scepter in the sideboard is great against a lot of decks, winning random matchups as well as the Control matchup. I also find that 4 Top + 4 Counterbalance main greatly increases the deck's power if you aren't playing a very aggressive version, because the Cantrips (I run only ten because of the four Tops) allow you to drop second turn Balance A LOT of the time, which often wrecks your opponent even if you don't get Top as well (and it's fun in the mirror of course).

[Lego]

Also, I would add the fourth Daze before adding any Counterspell maindeck.

I disagree. I run a 3/3 split and it works great. 4 Daze is often one too many.


4 Fire/Ice seems too many as well.
I'd run Fire/Ice as a 4-of or a 0-of. I don't run it, but it's a great card, and there's no reason not to play 4 if you're going to play it.


By the way...I find that one Isochrone Scepter in the sideboard is great against a lot of decks, winning random matchups as well as the Control matchup.

This just seems terrible.


I also find that 4 Top + 4 Counterbalance main greatly increases the deck's power if you aren't playing a very aggressive version

Now you're not even playing Thresh anymore. You're playing some sort of Counterbalance control. Counterbalance is terrible against Goblins, so it's bad in a lot of metas. 4 Tops also seems like overkill.

[Kundalini]

There are a number of issues for Mishra's Bauble being good in this deck:

Use bauble as one more draw spell; sure, portents and serum visions are better, but the bauble is free, draws you a card anyway and has huge sinergy with predict, allowing you to a fast predict setup because of its cost of 0. If you need information about opponent's deck and topdecks, this opens to a lot of tricks (more or less as portent, but at instant speed and spending no mana). Also, it doubles as tarmogoyf boost (your graveyard should have no artifact if you don't run baubles) and threshold boost.

Here is the list:

4 Fire // Ice
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Magma Jet

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Daze

4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
3 Predict
4 Mishra's Bauble

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Sea Drake

3 Wooded Foothills
1 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Winter Orb
SB: 3 Naturalize
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Stifle

Card choices:

Mishra's bauble: this used to be portent; it actually is a draw spell for free, so running 4xbauble is next to have a 56-card deck, and allows me to play an incredible land count of 16. It also has a lot of tricks with scry, predict and boosts tarmogoyf and threshold count.

Predict: 3x to maximize its card advantage in sinergy with magma jet, baubles, brainstorms and serum visions; it is uncommon to cast a predict and not being able do draw 2.

Sea Drake: this used to be fledging dragon. In such a low land count, sea drake is just more efficient as finisher; also, I need to run more blue cards for force of will count, since I don't run portent anymore; I run heavy burn spells, and killing the opponent is often a matter of efficiently mix up creature beats and burn.

Tarmogoyf: 4x is an auto include, its sinergy with cantrips is hotter than ever with baubles.

16 Mana sources (lands): the entire deck is designed to have a hand full of business spell and control/kill quick if needed, so the land count is pushed to the minimum. A single basic forest is needed for naturalizing blood moons and other ugly enchantments/artifact postboard, and/or still being capable of cast threats through wasteland disruption.

REBs: this replaces some burn (and maybe some counter spell) in any blue matchup

Tormod's Crypt: is useful versus so many decks, and can be sided in for one or two baubles, also.

Pyroclasm: the usual anti-aggro (goblins) answer.
Stifle, Winter orb: generic answer (otherwise meta-game slots)
Naturalize: one or two of these could be krosan grip(s), for fighting chalices and in other circumstances, but I feel that 3 mana is too much. I didn't test the grip in that slot, however.

[georgjorge]

Now you're not even playing Thresh anymore. You're playing some sort of Counterbalance control. Counterbalance is terrible against Goblins, so it's bad in a lot of metas. 4 Tops also seems like overkill.

It is still a deck very similar to Thresh since it runs many cantrips, Mongeese, Werebear, Goyfs, free counters...While Counterbalance IS bad against Goblins, I haven't lost so far against that deck, playing a Goyf or Mongoose to stall until I find a Clasm (which is found pretty fast with all the Cantripping...and Top is actually decent for this purpose too). I only play on MWS, so feel free to ignore this.

With Balance, four Tops is not too many (without, it is). Many games are practically over by turn two after Top and Balance, and frequently you assemble it on turn three with a little help from the cantrips.

As to the worth of the Balance strategy overall...I think people should try it, it's very powerful, and this is almost the perfect deck for it, as it can a) provide double blue easily b) assemble the combo pretty fast by digging through the deck c) play enough big creatures and burn to deal with creature rushes. As I said, I only play online (Magic-League and MWS), but so far the deck is running at 47-8, obviously counting only wins against real decks and not against Elf.dec. ALL of my losses came from Control decks (Loam-based Control, White Stax, Landstill). Those are very hard matchups, but they don't get much easier if you don't play the Balance.

[Destruction2007]

It is still a deck very similar to Thresh since it runs many cantrips, Mongeese, Werebear, Goyfs, free counters...While Counterbalance IS bad against Goblins, I haven't lost so far against that deck, playing a Goyf or Mongoose to stall until I find a Clasm (which is found pretty fast with all the Cantripping...and Top is actually decent for this purpose too). I only play on MWS, so feel free to ignore this.

With Balance, four Tops is not too many (without, it is). Many games are practically over by turn two after Top and Balance, and frequently you assemble it on turn three with a little help from the cantrips.

As to the worth of the Balance strategy overall...I think people should try it, it's very powerful, and this is almost the perfect deck for it, as it can a) provide double blue easily b) assemble the combo pretty fast by digging through the deck c) play enough big creatures and burn to deal with creature rushes. As I said, I only play online (Magic-League and MWS), but so far the deck is running at 47-8, obviously counting only wins against real decks and not against Elf.dec. ALL of my losses came from Control decks (Loam-based Control, White Stax, Landstill). Those are very hard matchups, but they don't get much easier if you don't play the Balance.


Do you have a list for this deck?

[Citrus-God]

Do you have a list for this deck?


// The VA Gro Deck
// Lands 17
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
2 Island


// Creatures 10
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Fledgling Dragon


// Spells 33
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
2 Serum Visions
4 Predict
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Pithing Needle


// Sideboard 15
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Control Magic
4 Pyroclasm
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge

[georgjorge]

Well, I DO play the Balances main ! I also play 2/2 splits more often then 4/0 because with the cantrips you are likely to see two of each set in a short time, and then it's better to have the freedom of choice (between clasm/bolt, grudge/grip, needle/stifle etc).

8 Fetchlands
8 Duals
1 Island

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Mongoose
1 Werebear
1 Fledgling Dragon

4 Portent
4 Brainstorm
4 Top
3 Predict

4 Force
4 Daze
3 COUNTERBALANCE
2 Spell Snare

2 Bolt
2 Fire/Ice
2 Clasm



Sideboard:

2 Grudge
2 Grip
2 Stifle
2 Needle
2 Counterspell
2 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Clasm
1 Hail Storm
1 Isochron Scepter

[Citrus-God]

I like the MD Clasms. I think they should be put into more consideration, since TES and CRET Belcher are all over the place now.

[Lego]

3 Mongoose
1 Werebear

Can you justify this? There are very few situations where I find myself wanting a Werebear over a Mongoose.



2 Bolt

I understand that you're trying to make room for Clasm, but only Bolts? Do you ever miss the 3rd or 4th? I know that you think you can find them easily with your cantrip engine, but I often find myself searching for the 3rd or 4th. It's not uncommon that the 3rd or 4th Bolt I cast in a game will win it for me.

Also, Counterspell in the board? Hail Storm? Isochron Scepter? Threads over Control Magic?

Hail Storm seems worse than Engineered Explosives. Isochron Scepter seems worse than everything. Control Magic is most important in the mirror match against White, where Threads of Disloyalty doesn't take Mystic Enforcer.

Tell me: what matchups do you think you're making better with this configuration? Where are you losing ground? It seems like you're just making your deck gimicky and inconsistent to no real gain. Can you justify some of your choices?

[georgjorge]

Can you justify this? There are very few situations where I find myself wanting a Werebear over a Mongoose.

I understand that you're trying to make room for Clasm, but only Bolts? Do you ever miss the 3rd or 4th? I know that you think you can find them easily with your cantrip engine, but I often find myself searching for the 3rd or 4th. It's not uncommon that the 3rd or 4th Bolt I cast in a game will win it for me.

Also, Counterspell in the board? Hail Storm? Isochron Scepter? Threads over Control Magic?

Hail Storm seems worse than Engineered Explosives. Isochron Scepter seems worse than everything. Control Magic is most important in the mirror match against White, where Threads of Disloyalty doesn't take Mystic Enforcer.

Tell me: what matchups do you think you're making better with this configuration? Where are you losing ground? It seems like you're just making your deck gimicky and inconsistent to no real gain. Can you justify some of your choices?

Actually, I CAN justify my choices :wink: although I don't know if my justifications will satisfy you.

Mongoose and Werebear...I play this deck as a control deck, and often play cantrips for the first two turns, then a Counterbalance and Top if I have it. The first creature I play often comes down on turn four or five, and by that time, mana cost isn't that important, while size is. So...yea, Werebear over the fourth Mongoose because it's a better creature for a controllish style.

You might be right regarding the third Bolt, and I might cut a Predict for it.

Now onto the sideboard - Hail Storm is only for the Goblins matchup because Clasm isn't too hot when the opponent vials in a Warchief EOT, then Vials in a Ringleader and plays a hasted Piledriver. I don't know if that comes up often enough to warrant the Storm, otherwise it would be another Clasm. Counterspell is for the control matchup, which is the only matchup I ever seem to lose, specifically Stax and Landstill. Against those, they have lots of threats I HAVE TO take care of (draw spells, Deed, Trinisphere, Stack, Crucible...), so I board in the Counterspells for the long game. The Scepter comes in for these matchups often as well, as it too is a card for the long game, and it wins against Control decks not packing blue (and sometimes against those that do). It is also decent against Homebrew variants and random stuff, as in the second game most decks don't have ways to remove it. The Threads - I'm testing them now, having played Shackles for the spot before. I'm not THAT afraid of the single Enforcer most people play (although it is dangerous), but I find that Threads is golden both when you have to play around Daze (taking Goyf or Grunt against Fish or Thresh) and also against aggressive beatdown decks (again taking Goyf or Grunt, or Dryad). But the discusson on Threads vs. Control Magic is already somewhere in this thread...

[Tacosnape]

Okay, so, two questions.

Let's assume I'm building this deck, and that I have absolutely no intention to run the SDT/Counterbalance engine.

My first question concerns the recent GenCon T8's, and a trend I noticed. Some of the Threshold decks, including UGRs, had picked up Wasteland and Stifle.

Now obviously Tarmogoyf is the cause for this, and obviously you can't run Wasteland and Fledgling Dragon together, due to the strain this would place on one's manabase. But without Fledgling Dragon, the entire deck not only has a CMC of 2 or less, but no spell requires more than one of a colored mana symbol.

So my question is in regards to the strength of this strategy and the best way to accomplish it. As far as I can reason out, any UGR Threshold deck that attempted this would pack combinations of the following cards:

Flooded Strand
Polluted Delta
Tropical Island
Volcanic Island
Wasteland

Nimble Mongoose
Tarmogoyf
Werebear

Force of Will
Daze
Spell Snare
Stifle

Brainstorm
Serum Visions
Some Other Cantrips (Portent, Mental Note, Predict, Sleight of Hand, Opt, Wtfever.)

Lightning Bolt
Fire//Ice

What are thoughts on lists that might implement this?

My second question concerns the cantrips in a metagame chock full of Cabal Therapy. Would it be feasible to run 1 to 2 copies of all of the questionable cantrips (IE, the ones not named Brainstorm)? As in, some configuration like:

4 Brainstorm
2 Serum Visions
2 Predict
1 Portent
1 Sleight of Hand
1 Opt
1 Mental Note

Thanks!

[from Cairo]

My second question concerns the cantrips in a metagame chock full of Cabal Therapy. Would it be feasible to run 1 to 2 copies of all of the questionable cantrips (IE, the ones not named Brainstorm)? As in, some configuration like:

4 Brainstorm
2 Serum Visions
2 Predict
1 Portent
1 Sleight of Hand
1 Opt
1 Mental Note


I wouldn't think Cabal Therapy would shoot for one of the "questionable cantrips" anyway regardless of which one you run with Brainstorm. Generally they go for business spells, or even Brainstorm; Do you really run into anyone naming Sleight of Hand?

4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
2-4 Serum Visions
2-4 Predict

IMO

[Citrus-God]

If you're trying to avoid playing Counterbalance, I'd play the deck more aggressively.


// Lands 18
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Island


// Creatures 12
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quirion Dryad


// Spells 30
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Engineered Explosives


// Sideboard 15
4 Pyroclasm
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip
3 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Fledgling Dragon
1 Vedalken Shackles


I personally think MDed EEs are vital at this point. Goyf and EtW everywhere. EE can also take down Vials against Breakfast and more goodness.

If you want a more tempo feel, I'd try something like this...


// Lands 18
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Breeiding Pool


// Creatures 12
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Werebear
4 Tarmogoyf


// Spells 30
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
2 Sleight of Hand
4 Mental Note
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt


// Sideboard 15
4 Pyroclasm
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip
3 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Sleight of Hand/Island/random land

[Lego]

I really like all the work that's being done on this deck. That's to be expected though, seeing how it's the biggest deck in the format right now.

As far as I can tell, the way to go now is either to play SDT and the Counterbalance engine out of the board, or to go with Stifle/Wasteland in the main. What do people think about these two options, and is there any reason (or feasibility) for both in the same deck? Would you need (or want) to drop Red at that point?

[Tacosnape]

I mostly agree with Lego. I don't think Counterbalance and Wasteland are going to be best friends exactly due to manabase constraints, although it's much more feasible than Fledgling Dragon / Wasteland.

I noticed Fire//Ice not being discussed at all hardly anymore. I'm kind of surprised at this a little bit due to the strength of Ice, as it's not only Cantrips 13-16, it'll tap down anything too big to burn out while your Tarmogoyf swings through. Plus, in a Goyf stalemate, it can either kill their Goyf off and ping them for 1, or it can tap the Goyf down for a swing and draw you a card, depending on which you need more at the time.

In any case, while I'm still contemplating sneaking Fire//Ice in, the list I've been working on has sort of come around to this monstrosity:

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Werebear/Quirion Dryad

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt

SB:
4 Pyroclasm
4 Krosan Grip
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 ???

[Sanguine Voyeur]

What do people think about these two options, and is there any reason (or feasibility) for both in the same deck?I tried them (Stifle and Counter Top) in the same deck, but I just couldn't find any space. Twelve cantrips (12), eighteen land (30), ten creatures (40); Daze and Force (48), removal (52), and Counterbalance and Top (59-60). I wanted to run maindeck Stifle, but just couldn't fit it.

[Citrus-God]

Cut Serum Visions man....

-2 Serum Visions
-1 Stifle
-1 Spell Snare

+4 Portent

Or you can just cut 2 Visions and the Stifle for Spell Snare. Personally, I wouldnt run Wastelands. I had awful mulling problems while testing. If your the Aggressor anyways, your better off running more free counters or threats.

[goobafish]

Opts were the nut high all day during the champs, while Mental Notes were the nut low in the prelims.

Portent isn't that great if you are running the UGr build. You want to play more instants, plus you don't have predict to benefit from it.

I won half my games on the back of wasteland, they are absolutely amazing, and necessary with all the non-basics floating around.

When facing a deck with few or no nonbasics, I side out a waste. When playing against a deck without stifles or wastelands, I side out 1 tropical island, going down to 17 lands.

Were I to play the same list again the only changes I would make are in the sideboard, as I love the maindeck as is.

3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Pyroclasm
2 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast

-3 Tormod's Crypt
-1 Engineered Explosives
-1 Pyroblast
-1 Red Elemental Blast
-1 Pyroclasm
+4 Counterbalance
+3 Sensei's Devining Top

[luka66_6]

I see that everybody stoped using Magma Jets. Why is that? They used to be considered good.
Please explain.

[Citrus-God]

I see that everybody stoped using Magma Jets. Why is that? They used to be considered good.
Please explain.

Because it's dead weight. Then again, so is Fire // Ice. They really need to find a better slot for them.

[kabal]

Because it's dead weight. Then again, so is Fire // Ice. They really need to find a better slot for them.

Are you kidding?? Fire/Ice is awesome; it has countless (not literally) uses.

I've noticed you seem to hook your train to the Hatfield express when it comes to Threshold/NQG configuration. I sure hope you have actually given a Fire/Ice a try and not just blindly accepted it is bad.

[Citrus-God]

Are you kidding?? Fire/Ice is awesome; it has countless (not literally) uses.

I've noticed you seem to hook your train to the Hatfield express when it comes to Threshold/NQG configuration. I sure hope you have actually given a Fire/Ice a try and not just blindly accepted it is bad.

I realize that, but the win-small effects arent really good enough for me. It's good as utility, but generally when it comes to win-small effects, it's not really Gorilla Shaman or Wasteland good. Sure you can 2-for-1 sometimes, but that didnt help much. You can Ice an Enforcer, but it wont really stop it from killing you next turn. I'm sure running MDed Threads of Disloyalty is much better.

I'm a Minnesotan. I've played this deck for a long time, like wayy before the Hatfields made it more well known. I played this deck after GP Philly after Pat McGregor (Who is also a local) Top 8ed there with it and lost to Sonne I think, in the Quarter finals.

Here's his old list for reference...


// Lands 18
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
2 Island


// Creatures 10
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Fledgling Dragon


// Spells 32
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire // Ice


// Sideboard 15
2 Winter Orb
3 Naturalize
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroclasm


And this was my list from the list above with this SB from way back then...

-1 Counterspell
-4 Fire // Ice


+3 Phyrexian Furnace
+2 Pithing Needle


And this SB

1 Pithing Needle
2 Naturalize
1 Tundra
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pyroclasm
4 Meddling Mage



Threshold was everywhere in the metagame at the time, and I still wanted a good Goblins MU. I always played with MDed Furnaces for as long as I can remember, then stopped when MDed Needles were everywhere.

[goobafish]

Playing thresh without wastelands seems plain wrong after seeing gencon top 8 lists. It is obvious that wastelands are important after seeing the results. They are amazing in the mirror, and in almost every matchup.

[Citrus-God]

Playing thresh without wastelands seems plain wrong after seeing gencon top 8 lists. It is obvious that wastelands are important after seeing the results. They are amazing in the mirror, and in almost every matchup.

Have you gotten any mulligan problems because of them? I'm curious by your results.

[goobafish]

Never. I have played the deck in 6 tourneys, won a bazaar, split a bazaar, 67th at columbus, split a mox, top 8 prelims, top 4 champs. Mulliganing has never been an issue. It is normally a no-lander, or its fine. It is not that aften that your only land is wasteland.

[Citrus-God]

Never. I have played the deck in 6 tourneys, won a bazaar, split a bazaar, 67th at columbus, split a mox, top 8 prelims, top 4 champs. Mulliganing has never been an issue. It is normally a no-lander, or its fine. It is not that aften that your only land is wasteland.

When is a good timing to focus on the mana denial in this deck? How often do you go Tempo with this deck?

[goobafish]

Mana denial is first priority against anything but goblins and possibly combo (if you are holding daze and stifle) but wasteland is incredibly good against combo. If goblins lays a first turn dual or fetch, then I will take advantage and start mana denial. Legacy decks tend to be mana light.

[Citrus-God]

Mana denial is first priority against anything but goblins and possibly combo (if you are holding daze and stifle) but wasteland is incredibly good against combo. If goblins lays a first turn dual or fetch, then I will take advantage and start mana denial. Legacy decks tend to be mana light.

Thanks. I will playtest this configuration for the next while. It looks promising, and I will be porting it into UGW Thresh.

[georgjorge]

Playing thresh without wastelands seems plain wrong after seeing gencon top 8 lists. It is obvious that wastelands are important after seeing the results. They are amazing in the mirror, and in almost every matchup.


As far as I can tell, the way to go now is either to play SDT and the Counterbalance engine out of the board, or to go with Stifle/Wasteland in the main. What do people think about these two options, and is there any reason (or feasibility) for both in the same deck? Would you need (or want) to drop Red at that point?

I agree with Lego here, only I think that Balance + Top is very viable in the main, not just in the side, especially with the number of Thresh decks going up. I also think that playing the mana denial and Balance + Top in the same deck is not just a problem of available space, but also a problem of different strategies - with a Balance on the board, your position gets better the longer the game goes, while with mana denial you typically want to win fairly quick, before the opponent draws into more mana.

[luka66_6]

So what are the updated lists you guys are playing now that is has come clear that one must run wasteland+stifle or Countrebalance+top. Has anyone found a way to squeeze them all in one deck ( I am not asking about UG lists but UGR )

[aTn]

but wasteland is incredibly good against combo

Just thinking out loud here: Mmm... Solidarity plays fetchlands and islands, Belcher plays one or two lands, Iggy Pop plays a lot of non-basics but isn't present that much where I play; the only combo deck which sees a modest amount of play against which I would want Wasteland is TES.


Playing thresh without wastelands seems plain wrong after seeing gencon top 8 lists.

If I understood right, there were no non-Aluren or non-Ghoul combo decks at Gencon, so I'd be tempted to say the results were not very representative of many metagames. Either way, I'll definitly test with 3 Wastelands main :wink: and congrats on your performance.

[Lego]

If I understood right, there were no non-Aluren or non-Ghoul combo decks at Gencon, so I'd be tempted to say the results were not very representative of many metagames.

In the top 8 alone you'll find Ichorid and Cephalid Breakfast. I would assume there'd be others.

[goobafish]

Just thinking out loud here: Mmm... Solidarity plays fetchlands and islands, Belcher plays one or two lands, Iggy Pop plays a lot of non-basics but isn't present that much where I play; the only combo deck which sees a modest amount of play against which I would want Wasteland is TES.

If I understood right, there were no non-Aluren or non-Ghoul combo decks at Gencon, so I'd be tempted to say the results were not very representative of many metagames. Either way, I'll definitly test with 3 Wastelands main :wink: and congrats on your performance.


Well even if you forget gencon, I have used the deck at multiple tourneys w/ iggy, TES and many other combo decks. Solidarity is almost off the map. Obviously you make your choices on your meta, if my meta was all mono-black then I wouldn't run wastelands. Wastelands are great against Iggy, TES, SI, Cephalid Breakfast, Ichorid, Belcher (to an extent) and Aluren, all it is bad against is solidarity, which I haven't seen since before Columbus. I am sure one of the many tourneys I have played it in would be representative of your metagame, and it worked in every tourney.

[from Cairo]

Yea Wasteland should be good versus Breakfast, Ichorid, and TES, not to mention the mirror, survival builds, sometimes goblins, combined with Stifles it seems like a worthwhile addition.

[Bovinious]

Wasteland is not good versus Ichorid, if our land resolved Breakthrough/Putrid Imp its done its job. The Wasteland wouldnt even really combat Coliseum/Deep Analysis because we can just go to EOT discard mode versus Thresh anyways and still win the race, but Wasteland is still probably good against the format in general.

[Tacosnape]

Wasteland is not good versus Ichorid, if our land resolved Breakthrough/Putrid Imp its done its job. The Wasteland wouldnt even really combat Coliseum/Deep Analysis because we can just go to EOT discard mode versus Thresh anyways and still win the race, but Wasteland is still probably good against the format in general.

That's a huge "If." Threshold's going to typically throw a Force at almost any spell you play that's even remotely relevant, because Ichorid doesn't play many spells at -all-, and they'll have a field day with Daze. Then they can Waste your land so you can't play a -second- spell, in case you only drew one land, which is a viable possibility in a 10-12 land deck.

Additionally, if you can keep them off 2 land, their only way to play Deep Analysis will be off a Lion's Eye Diamond. Oh, and you can kill Cephalid Coliseum if they get a slow start.

[Citrus-God]

Additionally, if you can keep them off 2 land, their only way to play Deep Analysis will be off a Lion's Eye Diamond. Oh, and you can kill Cephalid Coliseum if they get a slow start.

Stifling the damn coliseum works well too, if they attempt it.

[Illissius]

Silly idea: what about Tribal Flames as the secondary burn spell in the versions with more than three colors? It's neither a single mana, an instant, cycleable, nor pitchable to Force, but it can deal four or five damage rather than two or three -- enough, at times, to take down a Tarmogoyf. (Or an opponent).

[luka66_6]

Silly idea: what about Tribal Flames as the secondary burn spell in the versions with more than three colors? It's neither a single mana, an instant, cycleable, nor pitchable to Force, but it can deal four or five damage rather than two or three -- enough, at times, to take down a Tarmogoyf. (Or an opponent).
It can burn for 4 in turn 4 if you have 4 different basic out and you have not missed any land drops or played Daze and it is a sorcery.

[KillemallCFH]

It can burn for 4 in turn 4 if you have 4 different basic out and you have not missed any land drops or played Daze and it is a sorcery.You don't need basic lands for Tribal Flames to work. It says basic land types, not basic lands, so let's say you are playing UGrw *****; you could go first turn Volcanic, second turn Savannah (even though you probably wouldn't even play Savannahs, but for this example we'll say you do), and be able to use Tribal Flames to burn for 4 on turn 2, because you have a Mountain, Island, Plains, and Forest.
I'm not saying it is necessarily good for the deck, but it is a lot better than your understanding of it is.

[luka66_6]

You don't need basic lands for Tribal Flames to work. Yes you are right I have misread the card. But still it is a sorcery and that is usually not gut for burn spells.

[Kronicler]

So would everyone say that wasteland is an absolute necessary inclusion to this deck now? Frankly, I just hate the idea of running it in a deck with only 17 or 18 lands.

Kronicler

[noobslayer]

If you really must, I would suggest running it in the sideboard, and make sure between main and board you have a set of stifles, because otherwise I really don't see the merit of it.

[Kronicler]

I guess the real question is whether or not it is really THAT good. Neither landstill nor gobos seem to care about it much, Slivers now has Aether Vial to play around it and they will fetch basics after you pull it on them once, loam just loams back their lands, fast combo could almost not care less about it and if they need their land then they will just play it the turn they combo. I guess it hurts Ichorid and it seems to be a real pain in the ass for breckfast, as well as the mirror, of course, but do those small benefits really justify its inclusion? Granted, I haven't had any time to test it, so it could be the best card in the history of the deck and I wouldn't know it, but from a theoretical standpoint it seems poor.

Kronicler

[goobafish]

Why doesn't Landstill care? They tend to run so many colors that you can just color screw them. I have won many matches against Landstill on the back of wasteland.

[noobslayer]

Well, if you want to know does it have any value? My personal answer is no. The deck is too tight to bother disrupting a mana base. Your card choices are to precious and too few to waste them on such denial.

[Kronicler]

That's an interesting point that I hadn't considered. Whenever I think about playing landstill I always remember games when they had tons of lands on the board and wasteland would have been more than useless. Also, most of the builds I play against play loam and tutors to get it (usually intuition), which invalidates wasteland too. I guess that you could color screw them early in the game and then win before they get loam going, but it still doesn't seem that strong against them. But even if we assume it is somewhat good against them, I think my question of whether or not to include wasteland is still valid.

Kronicler

[Curby]

Why do people love Sleight of Hand so much? It seems that Impulse is better, with the ability to use it at the opponent's end of turn and twice the dig depth being worth the 1 colorless mana.

Threshold needs Thresh and Sorceries for Goyf, but there's always Portent and Serum Visions, both of which dig deeper than Sleight and can get rid of bad topdecks just as Sleight can. (Portent can also mess with your opponent.)

I haven't played Thresh much so if the mana cost of Impulse is just too high, I'll take your word for it. Regardless, there seem to be better cantrip options than Sleight. Why would you play something other than Brainstorm, Portent, and Serum Visions as your first 12?

Just a born-again newbie trying to understand. Thanks!

[noobslayer]

The only real cantrip that gets played above 1 cc is Predict. You want to only invest one mana to find an answer, because you won't be laying many lands over the course of the game.

[from Cairo]

Why would you play something other than Brainstorm, Portent, and Serum Visions as your first 12?


I don't think you should, except Predict. 4 Brainstorm 4 Portent seems obvious, some combination of Serum Visions and Predict to round out the engine.

[Zilla]

Regardless, there seem to be better cantrip options than Sleight. Why would you play something other than Brainstorm, Portent, and Serum Visions as your first 12?
I play Mental Note over Portent in my 12 cantrip package. Note gets Mongoose up to speed faster, it has solid synergy with Tarmogoyf by filling the yard with more card types, and I run 2 Fledgling Dragons, so Thresh is especially relevant to my build. If I dropped the Dragons, I'd probably switch to Portent.

[MattH]

I actually prefer Sleight over both SV and Portent at all times except turn 1, because it gets me the card I need NOW (on turn 1 getting the card you need doesn't matter because you're tapped out and already made your land drop).

I don't really like Mental Note but then I only use 1 F.Dragon and that because I am missing a Goyf.

[Volt]

I actually prefer Sleight over both SV and Portent at all times except turn 1, because it gets me the card I need NOW (on turn 1 getting the card you need doesn't matter because you're tapped out and already made your land drop).

I don't really like Mental Note but then I only use 1 F.Dragon and that because I am missing a Goyf.

Sleight of Hand is only better than SV in the particular instance where your top card is garbage and the second one isn't. If the order is reversed, or if both cards are good, or both cards are bad, then SV is better. I'll take SV (or Portent) over SoH all day long.

[ShadowLord]

If you haven't heard about it yet, "Think" is in Lorwyn, which is an instant speed portent that doesn't make you wait to draw. At least now the cantrip base will always almost start with 4 Brainstorm, 4 Think. The last 4 will still be argued about, of course.

[Kronicler]

IMO the last 4 need to be sorceries in order to feed goyf.

Kronicler

[MattH]

I really hope the name is better than "Think" - there's enough synonyms. 'Ponder,' for one.

[Happy Gilmore]

If Think is indead an instant the cantrip base is going to need some real tweaking. Running less then 4 sorceries will make it difficult to keep Mr T. as a 4/5.

my current configuration:
4 Predict
4 Portent
2 Serum Visions
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm

Fairly standard.
-2 Serum Visions is an easy cut
-1 Predict is feasable but I cant see going below three.

So I guess +3 Think untill testing shows that cutting a Portent (or two) is worth it.

[Citrus-God]

I still believe the 4th Predict should stay in the deck, since it is always nice to find ways to shuffle up the deck for other copies of Think and Top. But it might be better to cut 2 Visions and 1 Predict for a 3 of them. This may be another big thing for Thresh since Counterbalance and Goyf.

But this will seriously give the Threshold variants with Wastelands and Stifles more leverage. If you think about it, you can keep mana open to play Spell Snares and Stifle. This is amazing!

[Happy Gilmore]

I still believe the 4th Predict should stay in the deck, since it is always nice to find ways to shuffle up the deck for other copies of Think and Top. But it might be better to cut 2 Visions and 1 Predict for a 3 of them. This may be another big thing for Thresh since Counterbalance and Goyf.

But this will seriously give the Threshold variants with Wastelands and Stifles more leverage. If you think about it, you can keep mana open to play Spell Snares and Stifle. This is amazing!

It also makes Counterspell more useful since you can keep mana open longer with a cantrip base consisting mostly of instants.

[Citrus-God]

It also makes Counterspell more useful since you can keep mana open longer with a cantrip base consisting mostly of instants.

Tru dat. Could this be a reason to put the 3rd Counterspell back in? I'm not sure yet, but with a cantrip base with mostly instants, I see this as a good reason to debate over.

My only hope now is that "Think" has an awesome art like Portent or MM Brainstorm. Serum Visions just reminds me of that hot girl at a nightclub getting high on ecstasy.

[goobafish]

Two more lists from german champs....

#1 Threshold
Bernd Hartmann

Mainboard:
2 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Opt
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Mental Note
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Fire

Sideboard:
2 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyroclasm
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast


and

#5 Threshold
Frederic Timmer

Mainboard:
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Burning-Tree Shaman
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
2 Repeal
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Predict
4 Fire

Sideboard:
1 Deepcavern Imp
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Pyroclasm
3 Magma Jet
3 Pithing Needle
1 Flowstone Embrace


Very different approaches.

[Kronicler]

The 1st place list is almost your exact maindeck from legacy champs except for slightly different fetches, huh gooba? If you were to make any changes, what would you do? Did you like the 2 mental note? Were spell snares that useful? What about Fire//Ice? Did you ever feel threat light? It seems like 8 creatures isn't enough against landstill or other board control decks.

Kronicler

[goobafish]

That's not the first place list, just a top 8 list. Yeah, same list. The only change I would make is adding counter-top to the board. I hate mental note, it would probably be good to have 2 tops maindeck. Spell snares are amazing, as is fire ice. 8 Creatures is perfect for my controlish play style.

[BoardinCharlie]

Question for all...

With the upcoming popularity of cephalid breakfast does anyone think that Burning Tree Shaman is going to be put into the side board to answer the nomad triggers? It's slow, but it would make a better threat slot than dragon in this match up?

[kabal]

Question for all...

With the upcoming popularity of cephalid breakfast does anyone think that Burning Tree Shaman is going to be put into the side board to answer the nomad triggers? It's slow, but it would make a better threat slot than dragon in this match up?

Not just for that reason, but BTS is a solid beat. He does not require 2 Red like Fledging, which with all the Wastelands and Stifles running around will be more difficult to maintain. Unlike Fledging, you don't have to have Threshold to take advantage of him. As you as already pointed out, his drawback can be used as a boon in certain scenarios.

[zulander]

I don't think he'll be that beneficial in thresh. Each fetch will now cause 2 points of life loss, each top activation will cause life loss, and every wasteland effect will cause a point of life loss. I don't know if he's worth it in comparison to the dragon either. Dragon flies, and most likely you'll have threshold by the time he comes down, and he finishes games.

As for the breakfast matchup I think pithing needles and maybe echoing trouth out of the board is a bit better than BTS.

[kabal]

I don't think he'll be that beneficial in thresh. Each fetch will now cause 2 points of life loss, each top activation will cause life loss, and every wasteland effect will cause a point of life loss. I don't know if he's worth it in comparison to the dragon either. Dragon flies, and most likely you'll have threshold by the time he comes down, and he finishes games.

As for the breakfast matchup I think pithing needles and maybe echoing trouth out of the board is a bit better than BTS.

Each fetch, but you can't cast him until you have 3 lands. I don't believe that is a concern. As for Top, not everyone plays Top/CB. The people that do will be taking damage for each peek. Again, like I stated before this is where his drawback is actually beneficial.

[Happy Gilmore]

Each fetch, but you can't cast him until you have 3 lands. I don't believe that is a concern. As for Top, not everyone plays Top/CB. The people that do will be taking damage for each peek. Again, like I stated before this is where his drawback is actually beneficial.

If your not playing CB/Top so you can play BTS you are beating yourself over the head for no apparent reason. Post board CB is one of the best strategies in magic right now.

[kabal]

If your not playing CB/Top so you can play BTS you are beating yourself over the head for no apparent reason. Post board CB is one of the best strategies in magic right now.

I never said that is why to play BTS, but Top/CB isn't good in all meta. Sometimes a more balanced board is appropriate.

[Adan]

If your not playing CB/Top so you can play BTS you are beating yourself over the head for no apparent reason. Post board CB is one of the best strategies in magic right now.

Not exactley.

I posted "my" list some time ago and I was shouted at for running BTS.
Now people are trying to run NQGr with counterbalance, but I can't really agree with that somehow, even though a counterbalanced build with Sea Drake looks exotic.

But I think BTS is nuts atm., especially now that Counterbalance-SDT and Landstill got their hypes.

This is currently the most popular build in Germany since Baseruption also became a competitive mainstream deck. And NQGr should be the right call against Baseruption:


// Lands
2 [RAV] Island (1)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
3 [GP] Burning-Tree Shaman
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
2 [GP] Repeal
4 [OD] Predict
4 [IA] Portent
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

It doesn't run Counterspell or Pithing Needle because you won't have any problems against Wasteland when you play the cantrips well.
And Counterspell is not very flexible.

BTS jams the Counter-Top Engine and makes it suck. And he also does some extra damage against Landstill. He's independant from Threshold and has got CC3, so he's usually out-of-range for Counterbalances.

I also think that build fullfills the concept of being a "tempo-deck" the best. You got Ice, Repeal and vedalken Shackles to influence the damage race, BTS as a solid beater AND extra-damage source and Burn.
Running Counterbalance means that you completley give up the concept of the tempo deck.

@zulander and everyone: only completley stupid people run SDT and BTS at the same time!

And if you play it right Fetchlands won't cause that much damage. Anf even if 1 fetchland costs you 2 Life, so what? it will also cause 2 Damage everytime the opponent fetches. Plus, you control BTS. So you will deal more damage to your opponent than 1 fetchland deals to you.

[Kronicler]

Ughhhhhh, Think is actually named Ponder and it is actually a sorcery. Back to the cantrip base debate, eh? Think vs Portent vs Serum Visions. Ready, Set, Go!

Kronicler

[Adan]

I like Ponder. It's Sorcery, so it won't cause a disadvantage concering Tarmogoyf's P/T.

A lot of people play Portent because they prefer to play controlish, gaining lots more CQ. Others play Serum Visions because it's a full cantrip, draws solutions right when it's played and then generates a littlebit CQ because of Scry.

So, wrapping up:

Portent: "controlish", digs up to 5 cards until the next mainphase, can be abused for "tutoring" Bunrspells or Fatties. Slower because it's a slow-trip.

Serum Visions: more aggressive, supports the aggro-strategy better because it's a real cantrip. Generates less cardquality. Digs only up to 4 cards until the next mainphase.

Ponder: Also digs up to 5 card until the next upkeep, can be played controlish as well as aggressive, depending on the situation.
IMO the perfect mix between Portent and Serum Visions.

Ponder is the perfect mix between the positive things of Serum Visions and Portent.

So, my taste: Brainstorm > Ponder > Portent > Serum Visions

[Illissius]

Kronicler: are you sure? As far as I can tell, it's still a point of contention. I'm not sure why the partial spoiler has it as a sorcery. The discussion (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=88011&page=13) begins around #186.

[Volt]

Ughhhhhh, Think is actually named Ponder and it is actually a sorcery. Back to the cantrip base debate, eh? Think vs Portent vs Serum Visions. Ready, Set, Go!

Kronicler

It's not going to be a three-way debate. At the very least, Ponder replaces Portent in the Serum Visions vs. Portent debate. Portent's "mess with your opponent's library" effect doesn't come up often enough to outweigh the benefit of drawing a card immediately. Really, I don't think there's much to debate anymore. Ponder lets you look at the top 3 cards and draw the best one immediately? Or shuffle them away if they suck? Yes, please.

[Kronicler]

Actually I'm not 100% sure, but I think they got an actual (aka official) translation from the magazine and that's where they got the name Ponder and the fact it is a sorcery. This could be wrong of course, so no one start building / breaking apart decks based on this fact.

Kronicler

[Happy Gilmore]

Not exactley.

BTS jams the Counter-Top Engine and makes it suck. And he also does some extra damage against Landstill. He's independant from Threshold and has got CC3, so he's usually out-of-range for Counterbalances.



Your going to have to explain how BTS makes the Counter-Top plan suck. If you think taking a single point of damage to counter a spell of yours "sucks" then I really don't understand. And if your trying to race to get creatures into play before top comes down. I.e. Tarmogoyf on turn two and BTS on turn three you are going to be running right into a crap ton of Dazes and countermagic. Essentially you are not running Top or CB in order to support BTS. This makes TES, Belcher, Cephalid Breakfast, burn, and many other matchups worse for it. If your going to run anything other than Dragon you might as well run nothing at all. CB addresses more matchups then BTS could ever hope to effect.

[Adan]

Your going to have to explain how BTS makes the Counter-Top plan suck. If you think taking a single point of damage to counter a spell of yours "sucks" then I really don't understand. And if your trying to race to get creatures into play before top comes down. I.e. Tarmogoyf on turn two and BTS on turn three you are going to be running right into a crap ton of Dazes and countermagic. Essentially you are not running Top or CB in order to support BTS. This makes TES, Belcher, Cephalid Breakfast, burn, and many other matchups worse for it. If your going to run anything other than Dragon you might as well run nothing at all. CB addresses more matchups then BTS could ever hope to effect.

You should really play something else than Threshold if you are are really that stupid playing 2nd turn Goyf or 3rd Turn BTS right into Daze.

BTS is good against Counterbalance-Top, because:

- He pings everytime your opponent uses SDT
- He is CC3, so he won't be countered by Counterbalance

That are 2 good reasons to run BTS. He's even a faster beater than Fledling Dragon. And do you think you won't play into Countermagic when dropping Fledgling Dragon??? You could play into countermagic with almost EVERYTHING, so that argument is just...stupid, sorry.

And why should I play CB and Top to support BTS?! SDT+BTS? I think you really missed something.

And TES and Belcher are matchup you usually lose to g1, but g2 and 3 are safe for you. So what? Fledling Dragon is also too slow.

Cephalid Breakfast is already a positive matchup. And BTS is also good against Breakfast (just in case you don't know why: Aether Vial, Normads and Shaman en-Kor).

And Burndecks...well, you can simply race them because BTS is also a fast beater.

The main problem I got with counterbalance is that the deck itself will become a aggro-control with a nod to control, so running Counterbalance AND SDT means a higher permanentcount. The higher the permanentcount is, the worse Mimble Mongeese gets because you will get Threshold later than usually.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't suppose Thresh decks can use Troll Ascetic can they?

[Jak]

I don't suppose Thresh decks can use Troll Ascetic can they?

Too heavy green and the cost is high for only a 3/2.

[Nihil Credo]

I tried it before Tarmogoyf was printed. Playing Troll Ascetic isn't a problem; keeping 1G open to have it survive through combat or mass sweepers is.

[aTn]

I don't suppose Thresh decks can use Troll Ascetic can they?

I don't like the GG in the casting cost; its activated ability slows down the "use your mana to either cantrip, respond (Stifle, Spell Snare, etc.), burn/tap (Bolt, Fire/Ice), cast a creature, etc." plan, so I don't like it. From my point of view, it kind of goes the opposite direction of playing undercosted creatures with low cc cantrip and control spells to gain an advantage.

EDIT: Guess I typed slower than Jak and Nihil ;)

[Bane of the Living]

Try Burning Tree Shaman. I think he's wicked underplayed in America. Germany has been smashing with him for a couple years now. Seems like a nice way to mess with Nomad en Kors.

[Anarky87]

BTS is good against Counterbalance-Top, because:

- He pings everytime your opponent uses SDT
- He is CC3, so he won't be countered by Counterbalance

-Assuming he isn't handled, he'll ping the other Thresh player maybe 5-6 times total. Unless you're playing against a compulsive Topper. Even with Counterbalance, there's really only a few spells you need to stop in the mirror.
-Except they're usually bringing in Grips to combat SDT/CB if they think you're boarding it in. Meaning it's not hard to stick one on top and then Balance your Shaman.



And Burndecks...well, you can simply race them because BTS is also a fast beater.If a fast beater for you is a 3/4 with an entirely useless ability in that matchup, then sure. Go-go 3/4 beats.


The main problem I got with counterbalance is that the deck itself will become a aggro-control with a nod to control, so running Counterbalance AND SDT means a higher permanentcount. The higher the permanentcount is, the worse Mimble Mongeese gets because you will get Threshold later than usually.
Except you're also playing Tarmogoyf, counterspells, and cantrips. I've yet to have a problem with Goose not getting big with the engine in play. I'm all for a higher permanent count (2 cards...) if it means I lock my opponent out of the game. As to SDT/CB, I'll quote Lam Phan:


Top/CB will be in all winning Threshold decks. Games two and three will just be a race to see who gets their combo down first.

[Kronicler]

Aight guys, I usually wouldn't posts jank suggestions like this but I just have to. I was looking the P3K when I came upon what looks like a pretty strong card for threshold: Strategic Planning (http://www.abugames.com/images/products/portalthreekingdoms/strategicplanning.jpg)

It's kinda like impulse, but it puts the cards into your graveyard instead! So.... get the best card out of the top 3.... and add 3 cards to your graveyard? Seems good.

Kronicler

[aTn]

I considered Strategic Planning when I started playing Threshold, but then I discovered Predict. Predict sends one card less than S.P. to the graveyard, but it's instant speed and it enables you (generally) to draw an extra card (assuming you don't blindly Predict too often). If you already play Brainstorm, Portent/Serum Visions and Top, I think Predict is a way better choice than Strategic Planning. Props to Kronickler for having the balls to ask the question.

Edit: On a similar note, I'd like to know your impressions on Opt since I haven't tested it yet.

[Volt]

Aight guys, I usually wouldn't posts jank suggestions like this but I just have to. I was looking the P3K when I came upon what looks like a pretty strong card for threshold: Strategic Planning (http://www.abugames.com/images/products/portalthreekingdoms/strategicplanning.jpg)

It's kinda like impulse, but it puts the cards into your graveyard instead! So.... get the best card out of the top 3.... and add 3 cards to your graveyard? Seems good.

Kronicler

If it were an instant, it might be playable. But it aint.

[Kronicler]

Depending on your build of thresh, opt is either reallllly good, or realllllly bad. If you play Stifles and or Quirion Dryad then Opt is good. Being able to sit to go turn 1: land, go with a stifle and an opt in hand is just sooo good. If they play a fetch, stifle it. GFG. If they don't then Opt EOT. Opt is good with Dryad because you can chain instants and sometimes grow it significantly if you get a nice chain, ex. Opt -> Bstorm -> Bolt. Oh look, Mr. 10 Life Guy, my 4/4 Dryad is now a 7/7 and you just took 3 damage! You lose.

Now if you play predicts in your build, then Opt is trash because it doesn't allow you to set a predict up.

Kronicler

[Whit3 Ghost]

Aight guys, I usually wouldn't posts jank suggestions like this but I just have to. I was looking the P3K when I came upon what looks like a pretty strong card for threshold: Strategic Planning (http://www.abugames.com/images/products/portalthreekingdoms/strategicplanning.jpg)

It's kinda like impulse, but it puts the cards into your graveyard instead! So.... get the best card out of the top 3.... and add 3 cards to your graveyard? Seems good.

Kronicler
It's interesting, but it's a sorcery.

If I want to tap 2 lands for one spell during my turn I'm:
Playing Goyf/Werebear
Playing Counterbalance
Playing against solidarity.

[Adan]

-Assuming he isn't handled, he'll ping the other Thresh player maybe 5-6 times total. Unless you're playing against a compulsive Topper. Even with Counterbalance, there's really only a few spells you need to stop in the mirror.
-Except they're usually bringing in Grips to combat SDT/CB if they think you're boarding it in. Meaning it's not hard to stick one on top and then Balance your Shaman.
If a fast beater for you is a 3/4 with an entirely useless ability in that matchup, then sure. Go-go 3/4 beats.

LOL, against what should they board Krosan Grip??? Shackles maybe. So what? And my diuscussion is not about Counterbalance vs. BTS. It's about BTS > Fledgling Dragon.

And well, I bet no one of you had ever tried to play BTS. There must be a reason why BTS shashes some face in nowadays.

Like here:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=470&highlight=8#place8

or here:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=424&highlight=1#place1

or like this:

http://www.germagic.de/dc/event.php?event=German+Legacy+Open+2007

(Frederic Timmer T8ed, but got a strange SB because they were in a traffic jam and he received a gameloss because his Sb was not complete, so he put in 2 cards from a draft deck).

or here:

http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=10203 (2nd out of 60. That's Oddball btw. who played it for a long time and I also played against him at the German Legacy Open. He also smashed my face in because BTS dodged CB.)

http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=10099 (3rd out of dunno how much, Frederic again)

Also, that kind of NQGr is even good against counterbalanced Landstill because it gets more pressure on the board quite faster than other NQGs.

That's also the secret in winning mirrormatches, the player who get's more pressure on the table faster wins the game.
Fire/Ice and Shackles can help dealing or racing enemy Tarmogoyfs, and repeal is simply a fucking versatile card, also a very good out against nearly everything (Blood Moon, Counterbalance because CC3 on the stack).

Also, postboard there are a lotmore cards in the CC3 slots. And would you board in Grips just to counter BTS? I don't think so.

[Destruction2007]

LOL, against what should they board Krosan Grip??? Shackles maybe. So what? And my diuscussion is not about Counterbalance vs. BTS. It's about BTS > Fledgling Dragon.

And well, I bet no one of you had ever tried to play BTS. There must be a reason why BTS shashes some face in nowadays.

Like here:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=470&highlight=8#place8

or here:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=424&highlight=1#place1

or like this:

http://www.germagic.de/dc/event.php?event=German+Legacy+Open+2007

(Frederic Timmer T8ed, but got a strange SB because they were in a traffic jam and he received a gameloss because his Sb was not complete, so he put in 2 cards from a draft deck).

or here:

http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=10203 (2nd out of 60. That's Oddball btw. who played it for a long time and I also played against him at the German Legacy Open. He also smashed my face in because BTS dodged CB.)

http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=10099 (3rd out of dunno how much, Frederic again)

Also, that kind of NQGr is even good against counterbalanced Landstill because it gets more pressure on the board quite faster than other NQGs.

That's also the secret in winning mirrormatches, the player who get's more pressure on the table faster wins the game.
Fire/Ice and Shackles can help dealing or racing enemy Tarmogoyfs, and repeal is simply a fucking versatile card, also a very good out against nearly everything (Blood Moon, Counterbalance because CC3 on the stack).

Also, postboard there are a lotmore cards in the CC3 slots. And would you board in Grips just to counter BTS? I don't think so.

I know people that board in Grips just to have on top to counter opposing Grips.

[Adan]

I know people that board in Grips just to have on top to counter opposing Grips.

K, but they can't be good players then.

[Shugyosha]

I know people that board in Grips just to have on top to counter opposing Grips.

Even if the opponent has a Grip on top of his library constantly with SDT, he has to Top the card one down before draw. That's Krosan Grip's window of opportunity.

It's also quite hard to keep a card on top constantly with 7-8 fetchlands. Even if you have enough mana you occasionally want to fetch the other cards away to draw the spells that win the game.

[Destruction2007]

K, but they can't be good players then.

Actually I believe they were high level legacy players at Gencon. I am not saying that anyone should do that just saying people do SB it in for a 3 cmc card.

[Adan]

Actually I believe they were high level legacy players at Gencon. I am not saying that anyone should do that just saying people do SB it in for a 3 cmc card.

Te believe something is the result of a lack of knowledge.

Anyways, I won't side in a dead card just to "improve" Counterbalance, but weaken the rest of the deck.

[Destruction2007]

Te believe something is the result of a lack of knowledge.

Anyways, I won't side in a dead card just to "improve" Counterbalance, but weaken the rest of the deck.

I wasn't saying you should. I said believe because I cannot find the article that I read it in. Plus it is a figure of speech.

[Happy Gilmore]

the best answer to opponents playing krosan grip is to play multiple Counterbalances. Then the best then can do is kill a top.

[Citrus-God]

the best answer to opponents playing krosan grip is to play multiple Counterbalances. Then the best then can do is kill a top.

With the amazing Cantrip engine, you can easily replace those destroyed Tops.

[MattH]

First place in a nice little 8-man tournament here tonight. The field was:

Matt with 4c Goyf
Kyle with Inferior Breakfast (Kiki-Jiki kill, no Goyfs)
Erik with Ichorid
Zach with Goblins
Chad with Suicide-ish black (jump knights!)
Michael with GWB Survival
Adam with some sort of terrible Braids-Trinisphere-Tainted Aether prison deck
some guy with a Null Profusion deck

so 3 good decks, 3 mediocre decks, 2 terrible decks. Yeah, that's about right for a small Legacy tournament. Here's my list, in all its weird glory:

4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Quirion Dryad

4 Sleight of Hand
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell

4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills

SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Stifle
SB: 2 Vedalken Shackles

Cards that almost made it into the deck: Serenity, Grunt, Ancient Grudge, Rough/Tumble as a fourth Clasm.

I would have prefered 4 Goyf 0 Dryad and 4 Delta 0 Foothills but as they say, you go to war with the army you've got, not the army you want or might wish to have.

Round one: Zach with Goblins
Game one: I lead by Bolting a Lackey, and swinging with Goyf while getting poked by a Fanatic and a Skirk Prospector. I use my removal to keep the way clear, while adding Goose to the field. When I'm at 14 he has Prospector, Piledriver, Warchief, and a freshly-cast Sharpshooter. He attacks for 11, bringing me to 3. He sacs Piledriver to untap SS and shoots me (2). Then he realizes that if he sacs Prospector to untap and shoot me, he has no way to sac his Warchief to untap for the last point; and if he sacs Warchief to untap his SS, it will have summoning sickness again and be unable to shoot. He is at 4 life. I don't remember how it played out exactly, other than he went with plan A and left me at exactly 1 life, but I won. I was sweating it out; I had thought the game was mine when it was 14-5 and I had two or three guys out and swinging, but he nearly pulled it off.

-4 FoW
-2 Cspell
+3 Clasm
+1 STP
+2 Stifle

Game two: I let him hit me with two Lackeys, which drop a Matron (gets a Piledriver) and a SGC into play. I untap and Clasm them all dead. He Vials in the Piledriver, and I drop Goyf. He gets a Ringleader for Fanatic, Prospector, and Sharpshooter. He gets some of those into play, and I Clasm them all dead too. He can't muster any defense against the large green man after that. There were some shenanigans with gangblocks and Gempalms in here somewhere.

Round two: Michael with Survival
Game one: He leads Temple Garden into BoP, and begins playing Duresses. I use an EE to kill his bird when I notice he hasn't made a second land drop, and he never does get a second land.

-4 Magma Jet
+1 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Vedalken Shackles
+1 Swords to Plowshares
+1 EE

Game two: After Duress takes my Shackles, he has a Bop and Xantid, and I get ready to EE them away when he plays a Survival. He taps out to do it though, and I EE it away. He plays a Deed. I play a Dryad but have nothing to grow it with - I have an STP and a Bolt but I don't want to spend them on his crappy 0/1s, so it's slow going for awhile. He plays another Deed, while I get another EE and play it on x=3 and pop it. He fails to use either Deed, letting them die rather than trading his two 0/1s for my Dryad, which is a huge mistake. He is totally manaflooded. I don't think he plays another spell. At one point when he is at 12, I attack with my 4/4 Dryad. He doesn't block, and I double-Bolt him before combat damage to bring him to 6 facing an unblocked 6/6 Dryad. Whoopee!

Round three: Chad with Suicide
Game one: I get a Threshed Mongoose early on and start hitting him with it. Contagion shrinks a Goyf to proportions that can be eaten by a Sarcomancy token, but I land a second Goose and keep swinging for the fences. By the time he gets a Bob+Jitte out, he's too low on life to survive the Bob damage, my creatures, and Sarcomancy's pings.

-4 FoW
+1 Clasm
+2 Shackles
+1 EE

Game two is sad. He mulligans, and I just ruin his shit with my bombs. I Clasm a Sarcomancy token and a Jump Knight. I have a ton of removal, he can't keep a creature on the table. When he plays a Shade with 3 mana open to face my 4/5 Goyf, I untap, play a fifth land, and drop+activate Shackles to take his guy. He Contagions my Goyf down but he can't stop the Mongoose+Shade beats.

I thought the tournament was over, but apparantly people voted for a fourth round so we played a fourth round, against my objections.

Surprise round four: Erik with Ichorid
Game one: I had planned to play a Dryad and Jet it dead to remove his Bridges, but I accidentally Brainstormed and the Dryad got too big. He slowly amasses eight zombie tokens by recurring an Ichorid and letting it die. I am at 12 and have two blockers, so his zombies have exactly enough to swarm me. The very next turn I would have been able to Sleight into EE, killing his tokens and probably winning me the game.

-4 FoW
-2 Cspell
-2 Daze
+3 Clasm
+3 Crypt
+1 STP
+1 EE

This game he has a weird hand. I play an EE, he plays Chain of Vapor on it and then Therapies it away. I think I Plowed an Ichorid here. He does the same to a Crypt two turns later. Meanwhile he's not getting any kind of gas, and a Goyf is hitting him hard. He taps out to play a Narcomeba. I have a Clasm in hand, and I should have Clasmed it dead. I didn't, which let him Chain my 5/6 Goyf and sac Meba to flashback Therapy naming Goyf. He was at 5 life. I curse myself, and we settle in to playing draw-go. I draw STP, land, Bolt, and he finally gets a dredger in the yard. I draw: another Bolt, and simply double-Bolt him dead.

Game three: at some early point he plays Breakthrough, saccing LED in response, while I have a Crypt. I don't know if that was right to do, but whatever, I RFGed like ten cards. He draws and discards 4, flashes back a Deep Analysis, but he doesn't draw anything and now has like 2 cards in hand and 1 land and nothing relevant in the graveyard, so I do him in fast with double Goose.

4-0, 8-1. I had orginally made the deck with black for Confidants but I had yet to use my Tundras for anything much, and I wanted to use them, so I switched to STPs and white. I liked it a lot! It sure gave me a lot of removal. Eight creatures was honestly enough, and I never felt the need for basic lands, even against Goblins, Suicide, and a BW deck I played a fun game against on the side and won 1-0. Basics would mean more if there were Crucible-Wastelock decks going around, or if people played things like PoP, B2B, or Blood Moon, but there aren't and they don't.

I really liked my sideboard this time, which is good because I usually find something to hate about it. The Grips were pretty much useless but they could be good against certain decks which didn't show.

[DragoFireheart]

Having played my Oath deck in a few casual games I found that I really enjoyed many of the aspects of Blue. It's funny because I am normally a fan of red based decks. It's not the counterspells that I enjoy the most, but the cantrips that blue offers and gives me control of my deck. I really liked tinkering with my deck to find that land that I need, or that counterspell that I need for that crazy high tide combo deck to stop them.

As it stands now the only things holding me back are some fetchlands, the lack of 4 tropical islands, no stifles and no Forces of Wills. No one in my local areas has Forces so I need to go online to obtain them. However I have accumlated enough jank cards to trade for 4 tropical islands. Stifles should be easy enough to get my hands on.

I guess the questions is which thresh deck I should try and make.

UG, UGR, UGW, UGB, etc.

The current dual lands/fetches/wastelands I have atm are:

4 Taigas, 4 Bayous, 1 Badlands, 4 wooded foothills, 2 wastelands.


Any suggestions are more than welcome.

[luka66_6]

What are latest lists you guys are playing. I mean do you play Wastelands+Stifles+Counterbalances in Red *****?

[kabal]

Has anyone given any thought to playing 2-3 Wee Dragonauts (http://magiccards.info/alp06/en/7.html) MB?

Dragononauts fly, pitch to FoW and have good synergy with the multitude of cantrips.

Here is a list (http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=7984) that played 3 MB in the pre-gofy era.

[diffy]

Has anyone given any thought to playing 2-3 Wee Dragonauts (http://magiccards.info/alp06/en/7.html) MB?


In the pre-Tarmogoyf era, a friend of mine used to play a Wee-Dragonauts based Ugr Aggro-Control Deck which was pretty efficient. Although it resembles more to a real Gro deck than to the modern NQG archetype, I think it deserves some credit.

Here's a link to his deck (http://morphling.de/printview.php?c=523&d=2) in one of the last incarnations.

It uses Intuition (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/70.html) an incredible tutor which either spells 'You win the game' fetching 3 Lava Dart (http://magiccards.info/ju/en/94.html)s when you have Wee Dragonauts or Quirion Dryad out or just gets you whatever you need like additional critters or card draw in the form of Accumulated Knowledge (http://magiccards.info/fnmp/en/51.html).
The thing I never felt good about in his list are the Grim Lavamancer (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/100.html)s which are strong but don't really fit into the concept of the deck.
In his list, I'd replace the 2 Misdirections, 1 Lava Dart and the 4 Grim Lavamancers with some assortment of additional Berserk (http://magiccards.info/al/en/94.html)s (he only owned one) and 4 Tarmogoyfs.
Also, you'd want to replace the 4 Sleight of Hand (http://magiccards.info/po2/en/46.html)s with 4 Ponder (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56754&stc=1&d=1189205507)s when Lorwyn becomes legal.

[Mister Agent]

I actually think burning tree-shaman is very efficient I tested shaman out alot as well in ugr threshold. The reason why I think tree-shaman is so efficient is because it makes UGR threshold have a faster clock as well as it's not effected by any graveyard hate. Also burning tree-shaman can win you games you should not have via shaman's ability through my experience.

[Citrus-God]

I'll stick to Fledgling Dragon. 2 Turn clock > shitty 3/4 in Goyf format...

[Sigar]

What SB do you guys run?

Is Krosan Grip needed?

[Shriekmaw]

What SB do you guys run?

Is Krosan Grip needed?



I believe Krosan Grip is still needed in the board of threshold. In the tournaments that I usually play it I do run into enchantress, aluren, and landstill.

If your metagame doesn't warrant you running Grip, then don't. The tournaments up here in the Northeast Krosan Grip is almost necessary to have at least a 2 of in the board.

[MattH]

If you're paying over 2 mana for a creature, that creature needs to beat Goyf. Based on this principle, Serendib Efreet, Burning-Tree Shaman, and probably Sea Drake are all incorrect, and pretty much inferior to Worldly Tutor-for-Tarmogoyf*.

*which I also would not recommend.

[Sigar]

What is Krosan Grip needed against? Deed, Aluren, EE?

Btw, has anyone considered running Dryad instead of Mongoose?

[NQN]

Sea Drake is incredibly good. In the mirror or against any other #random goyf-player both will draw tarmogoyfs and then the board is stalled. then u play sea drake and? it`s gg! so i think drake is the right way to go if u don`t want to play ToD in the maindeck.

Greetings,
NQN

[Citrus-God]

What is Krosan Grip needed against? Deed, Aluren, EE?

Btw, has anyone considered running Dryad instead of Mongoose?

Counterbalance, Blood Moon, the usual...

[Sims]

If you're paying over 2 mana for a creature, that creature needs to beat Goyf. Based on this principle, Serendib Efreet, Burning-Tree Shaman, and probably Sea Drake are all incorrect, and pretty much inferior to Worldly Tutor-for-Tarmogoyf*.

*which I also would not recommend.


Respectfully, I disagree in regards to Drake/Efreet. Efreet hurts and Drake requires the land investment, however a 3 mana 3/4 is a threat that breaks the Goyf-stalemate. Is Fledgling Dragon a better choice? Probably. That said, Drakes and Efreets are FoW-pitching threats that break a goyf-mate, so they cannot be totally wrong.

[Kronicler]

What is Krosan Grip needed against? Deed, Aluren, EE?

Btw, has anyone considered running Dryad instead of Mongoose?

Instead? No way. Mongoose is just wayyyy too good to not run him. But running dryad along side mongoose is a viable stratagy. If you build your deck with the right cantrips (aka not portent or SDT) then he can grow really fast, and in general a dryad can easily break goyf-mates.

Kronicler

[Sigar]

I agree, Mongoose is really strong. I have spent the day testing, and I don't think Dryad is good enough. It's only good if you can get it on the table early on, and it's a terrible draw mid-late game. I would run either Dragon or Werebear as the 3rd creature.

[Shriekmaw]

I agree, Mongoose is really strong. I have spent the day testing, and I don't think Dryad is good enough. It's only good if you can get it on the table early on, and it's a terrible draw mid-late game. I would run either Dragon or Werebear as the 3rd creature.



I believe Dryad is very strong in threshold, but you have to run a lot of cantrips that can chain together. This is why a lot of builds at Gen Con ran opt, since you can easily find another cantrip to cast. Also, to maximize the effectiveness of the dryad's, you must run the full set of 4. I agree that dryad is not that good mid to late game, but the main reason to run him is so he becomes a big creature fast which helps threshold wins so many games.

Personally, I can't wait until Ponder becomes legal, because it will be really good in threshold. A nice compliment to portent if you decide to run both.

[aTn]

Btw, has anyone considered running Dryad instead of Mongoose?

I haven't tried it but it doesn't seem like a good call. Goose is great against Threads of Disloyalty, pin-point creature removal/control in general and bounce. Many decks need to go out of their way to cast EE@1 to get rid of Goose.

I used to run Goyf-Goose-Dryad for a while, but right now I'm only playing 8 creatures (Goyf-Goose) and I like it a lot.

[MattH]

Respectfully, I disagree in regards to Drake/Efreet. Efreet hurts and Drake requires the land investment, however a 3 mana 3/4 is a threat that breaks the Goyf-stalemate. Is Fledgling Dragon a better choice? Probably. That said, Drakes and Efreets are FoW-pitching threats that break a goyf-mate, so they cannot be totally wrong.

How does BTS break a Goyf stalemate?

@NQN: Drake has 3 toughness and we're talking about a matchup with Lightning Bolts. That rules it out for me.

I actually suspect the deck needs no finisher at all. I have gotten by just fine on 8 creatures so far. I might want one large finisher, and since I also play four colors it would probably be Enforcer. I don't really want a lot of creatures except against board control decks.

[Nihil Credo]

He's talking about Serendib Efreet.

[Lukas Preuss]

I have been running 8 creatures, as well as 2-3 maindeck Threads of Disloyality. Of course, this is a meta choice, but if you're in a heavy aggro-control meta, Threads act as removal for the opponent's Goyf, as well as creatures (Tarmogoyf) number 9-11. This has won me quite some games. There are other creatures to get as well, such as: Dark Confidant, Meddling Mage, Dryad, Werebear, Serra Avenger, Nantuko Shade, and so on.

At worst, it pitches to Force of Will, but I found Threads of Disloyality to be one hell of an addition to the deck. Of course, it's strenghth is not as great if you're facing combo, but this is already a positive matchup.

[MattH]

He's talking about Serendib Efreet.

Oh, right. That's what I get for not reading carefully enough.

[NQN]

@MattH: If he kills your drake with a Bolt, your can kill his goyf with goyf block+bolt so u still have the advantage.
Mfg jan

[Citrus-God]

@MattH: If he kills your drake with a Bolt, your can kill his goyf with goyf block+bolt so u still have the advantage.
Mfg jan

But NQG loves it's land drops. I personally dont think Sea Drakes are so great unless you guys decide to run Winter Orbs.

[Citrus-God]

Dont forget that at the Prelims, both Hatfields made Top 4.

[aTn]

Dont forget that at the Prelims, both Hatfields made Top 4.

I didn't know that both of them made top4; congrats to them both :)

I'll add those lists then. Thanks for the info Anti.

The Edit function seems to crap out at this moment, I'll do the changes as soon as it works.

[kabal]

Don't forgot ....

Top 5 German Legacy Open 2007 - 175 players

NQGr - Frederic Timmer (http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=10644)

3 Burning-Tree Shaman
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fire / Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Predict
2 Repeal
4 Serum Visions

2 Vedalken Shackles

4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:

1 Deepcavern Imp
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Pyroclasm
3 Magma Jet
3 Pithing Needle
1 Flowstone Embrace

[aTn]

This morning I thought it would be a good idea to make a list of 'recent' UG(R)-Threshold lists that performed well at major events this year (Gencon, GP Columbus, TML0). It is intended as a reference for our discussions (and I was tired, like many of you I guess, of going to different websites to look at these lists).

If you there's a hole in this list, you can PM a decklist with the tournament where it had a good perfomance and I'll add it. In particular, I'm missing one of the Hatfield's list for Gencon's Legacy trials event.

Sorry I didn't put the names of all the player, I guess the tournament and the decklist make it easy to know who played what.

---------------------
1. UGR-Threshold
---------------------
Top8 TMLOpen, March 2007 (?).

4 Predict
4 Brainstorm
3 Portent
3 Serum Visions
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Daze

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Fledgling Dragon

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Pithing Needle

4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Forest

Sideboard:
4 Pyroclasm
3 Counterbalance
3 Control Magic
2 Naturalize
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Sensei's Divining Top

---------------------
2. UGR-Threshold
---------------------
Top6 GP Columbus, end of May 2007.

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Quirion Dryad

4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions

4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Daze

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fire/Ice
1 Pithing Needle

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Forest

Sideboard:
3 Spell Snare
2 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
4 Pyroclasm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast

----------------------
3. UGR-Threshold
---------------------
Top8 (2 Players), Gencon Legacy Prelims, end of August 2007.

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Fledgling Dragon

4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Predict
2 Serum Visions
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Counterspell

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Pithing Needle

4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Forest

Sideboard:
4 Pyroclasm
4 Counterbalance
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Control Magic
1 Sensei's Divining Top

----------------------
4. UGR-Threshold
----------------------
Top8, Gencon Legacy Prelims, end of August 2007.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose

4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
2 Opt

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire // Ice

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Pyroclasm
2 Krosan Grip

-------------------
5. UG-Threshold
--------------------
Winner Gencon 2007, end of August 2007.

4 Predict
4 Portent
4 Brainstorm

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare

1 Rushing River
1 Snapback

2 Island
1 Breeding Pool
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Krosan Grip
2 Hail Storm

---------------------
6. UGR-Threshold
---------------------
8th Gencon 2007, end of August 2007.

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterspell

4 Serum Visions
4 Opt
4 Brainstorm

4 Fire // Ice
4 Lightning Bolt

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island

Sideboard:
3 Spell Snare
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip
1 Counterspell
2 Engineered Explosives

--------------------
7. UGR-Threshold
--------------------
4th Gencon 2007, end of August 2007.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose

4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
2 Mental Note

4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare

4 Fire // Ice
4 Lightning Bolt

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Pyroclasm
2 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast

--------------------
8. UGR-Threshold
--------------------
Top 5 German Legacy Open 2007 (175 players)

3 Burning-Tree Shaman
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Predict
4 Serum Visions

4 Force of Will
4 Daze

4 Fire / Ice
4 Lightning Bolt

2 Repeal
2 Vedalken Shackles

4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
1 Deepcavern Imp
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Pyroclasm
3 Magma Jet
3 Pithing Needle
1 Flowstone Embrace

[Lukas Preuss]

Deepcavern Imp and Flowstone Embrace. That's awesome sideboard tech right there.

Otherwise, Freddy's build is pretty solid, one of the traditional German builds of NQGr. He is also an amazing player, which might have contributed to his success, eventhough he didn't make full use of his sideboard.

[aTn]

When the results for the German Legacy Open were posted, I really didn't get DeepCarvern Imp and Flowstone Embrace and I still don't. To me, they're a bit of a waste of SB slots. The Imp has evasion but can be easily removed; sure, not paying the Echo or paying the Echo may bring another creature type to boost Goyf (or get Threshold), but I'd rather do that with cantrips (e.g. Predict). Maybe he was scared of facing Ichorid (Bridge from Below). Flowstone Embrace seems bad, both as a creature booster and as removal (burn plays that role pretty well, both accelerating the kill and removing creatures, especially those with 2-Toughness). Maybe he was scared of Meddling Mage (which is played in Germany in the popular BaseRuption if I'm not mistaken ?). If I played a build like his, I'd probably put Counterbalance Top in the SB and side-out the BTS and other cards to board in Counterbalance-Top in the appropriate match-ups. In either case, props to Freddy for his performance.

[Nihil Credo]

When the results were posted, I really didn't get DeepCarvern Imp and Flowstone Embrace and I still don't.

Imp and Embrace were picked from a freshly-opened booster when the player was unable to use two of the SB cards he had planned, and had to handle his list.

Although it would be awesome to use Embrace to kill a Spectral Lynx ;)

[aTn]

I'm dissapointed Imp wasn't for Bridge From Below and Flowstone Embrace as a surprise for Meddling Mage (BaseRuption) :wink:

Thanks for the explanation... it... eh... explains a lot.

EDIT: Didn't think about Spectral Lynx, good one.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I didn't check the manabase to see that he DIDN'T splash black (for Imp) (-Taking head out of ass-).

[chokin]

This is my first post, I'm new to the forums. Hi all.

I don't know if you're all joking, but the reason behind the Imp and Embrace is because he couldn't find 2 other cards from his board and he had those left over from a draft.

They weren't serious.

[MattH]

@MattH: If he kills your drake with a Bolt, your can kill his goyf with goyf block+bolt so u still have the advantage.
Mfg jan
The point is to run a threat that doesn't die to a single Bolt, because if it dies to a Bolt, it's not going to reliably break a Goyf standoff (and Drake in particular is awful bad to get shot down, setting you back two land drops).

Random brainstorm: has anyone tried Vexing Sphinx as a flier? How was it?

[Adan]

I'm dissapointed Imp wasn't for Bridge From Below and Flowstone Embrace as a surprise for Meddling Mage (BaseRuption) :wink:

Thanks for the explanation... it... eh... explains a lot.

EDIT: Didn't think about Spectral Lynx, good one.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I didn't check the manabase to see that he DIDN'T splash black (for Imp) (-Taking head out of ass-).

Yeah, as Nihil said, they were picked from a fresh openes booster because the guys were in a traffic jam and had to hurry. He also had to borrow tons of cards and quickly stuffed Flowstone Embrace and the Imp into the Sideboard.

But Flowstone Embrace was really boardet against Spectral lynx and Baseruption's Meddling Mages. That was funny to watch.

[godryk]

I may be sounding noob, but, has anybody consider, at lest, to test Tarfire? It can replace Fire/Ice now that goblins is not very played, it's not as useful and can't tap an opponen't 'Goyf, but most of time Fire/Ice is used like an overcosted shock. I don't mean we need it, I just say it deservers some testing.

[kabal]

I may be sounding noob, but, has anybody consider, at lest, to test Tarfire? It can replace Fire/Ice now that goblins is not very played, it's not as useful and can't tap an opponen't 'Goyf, but most of time Fire/Ice is used like an overcosted shock. I don't mean we need it, I just say it deservers some testing.

I don't think so. When you say, "Goblins isn't being played", that isn't true for every meta. besides that Fire/Ice pitches to FoW, allows you to tap opposing Gofy to sneak by ftw, removes 1+ pesky X/1 creatures like Dark Confidant, Nantuko Shade, Spectral Lynx, Mother of Runes, etc and/or go 1pt to the dome. To a lesser degree, remove 2 EtW tokens.

[Kronicler]

I actually have been testing 2x Tarfire in the main, and frankly, I like it a lot. Now before you flame the hella out of me keep in mind that I play a build with 4 Dryads. Originally I thought that the cantriping of Ice would outshine the +1 to Goyf, but against a lot of decks being able to just keep a ton of preasure coming is more valuable than squeezing damage through. Wow.... I didn't really explain that well. I'll write up another, more in depth, post when I'm awake.

Kronicler

[aTn]

Random brainstorm: has anyone tried Vexing Sphinx as a flier?

I haven't tried it but I imagine the cumulative upkeep might become hard to pay and not super hot in terms of card advantage.

If I'm not mistaken, if you pay the upkeep for N-1 turns and decide to sac the Sphinx on turn N (with N counters on it), then you'll have discarded N(N-1)/2 cards to pay the given Sphinx's cum-upkeep cost in the previous turns. The only way to make sure you draw (from the Sphinx's triggered ability) at least the same amount of cards that you lost (from paying his cum-upkeep cost) is to 'sac' the Sphinx when there's 1, 2 or 3 time counters on him. All that gives you at most 2 Sphinx attacks before you start 'losing' cards to him.


Why do you want to add a creature which has evasion ? I think the standard 8-12 creatures are enough. If I absolutely wanted evasion (for the mirror-match in particular), I'd probably go with F. Dragon or I'd splash white for M. Enforcer.

[chokin]

The only reason I'd ever want a Vexing Sphinx in play is if I have extra lands in my hand and I want better cards in it. If Thresh is using cantrips to get better cards more reliably(threats and answers), what is the Sphinx doing besides throwing away cantrips or threats/answers? And when you do draw, I suppose it's similar to cantripping, but then why spend 3 mana and 3 turns to do it? Sure a 4/4 beater is nice, but I think I'd rather use the Efreet or Drake.

[Nihil Credo]

I'd have to say that Vexing Sphinx looks pretty good, particularly for a Red version:

1UU - Sorcery
Choose one - Discard a card, draw two cards, then next turn this deals 4 damage to target player; or discard three cards, draw three cards, then in two turns this deals 8 damage to target player.

If you're looking for an evasive beater, then 4-8 damage is probably all you'd need to close the game, when paired with Bolts (and F/I for who runs them).

The huge problem, however, is StP and its ability to get you 1-for-2'ed, or, Satan forbid, 1-for-4'ed.

[aTn]

Stupid Idea #1:

If the ground is stalled (which tends to happen in the mirror) and you can manage to sack a Goyf (or even just a Goose), your sacked creature can be replaced by a Flying creature with the same Power/Toughness (and Firebreathing or whatever it's called) for just UR. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you...

Dracoplasm

UR (2), Creature - Shapeshifter X/X
Flying.
As Dracoplasm comes into play, sacrifice any number of creatures.
Dracoplasm's power is equal to the total power of the sacrificed creatures and its toughness is equal to the total toughness of those creatures.
{R}: Dracoplasm gets +1/+0 until end of turn.

[from Cairo]

Dracoplasm

UR (2), Creature - Shapeshifter X/X
Flying.
As Dracoplasm comes into play, sacrifice any number of creatures.
Dracoplasm's power is equal to the total power of the sacrificed creatures and its toughness is equal to the total toughness of those creatures.
{R}: Dracoplasm gets +1/+0 until end of turn.

This guy has 2+ for 1 written all over him... if you sack a Goyf and they Swords the Plasm, you're out one ground pounder and the flying win condition... pretty sure I would rather have Serendib Efreet (sp?), or any of other flyiers and not have to sac anything.

[aTn]

I agree, I'd rather play something like Soar to enchant my creature before playing Dracoplasm (and I'd never play Soar, unless someone offered me something good in exchange). It was more of a joke than anything else ('stupid idea').

I think Serendib is one of the only good flyers we have access to (from my tastes anyhow)... and if we don't count Fledgling D..

Sea Drake, as was mentioned before, is nice Bolt meat and the fact that you need to return two lands just seems like counter tempo-ish; sure you can Stifle it's trigger, but that won't happen often and as mentioned, 2 for 1 isn't attractive.

[Citrus-God]

I was never dissapointed in Fledgling Dragon. Being able to win two turns after it is played is just awesome.

[donkyranger]

What is better, and why? Shackles or Threads... I own 50 Shackles... but Threads seems so good to... I've had expeiance where Shackles stalled a game out against Salvager for quite a while, but I dont know so help? Plz

Also Ive been trying to find a really good list with dryad and dragon in it and I was wondering if someone could hook me up with what they think is the best list.

Tanks a lot

[Citrus-God]

One can be Needles, and the other one pitches to FoW. One can grab a Mystic Enforcer, the other sits there and whines that it's not Control Magic.

[from Cairo]

Yea isn't Control Magic just better than both Threads and Shackles? 4 mana is sort of high, I guess. It's not really that bad though, considering anything you would want to steal is probably going to be cast turn 2-3 then you are able to steal it turn 4. :2: :u: :u: is a very reachable mana/color requirement.

[luka66_6]

:2: :u: :u: is a very reachable mana/color requirement. But what is better to have with CounterTop engine? CC3 or CC4? Is it meta dependent or is one just better than other?

[FredMaster]

The decks that support Counterbalance are oftentimes prepared for cards with cc3 (Trinket Mage/Shackles/Threads). So I guess cc4 is better.
I play Shackles myself tho. Cus the cc3 on top with a CB online is very rare.
Here is the list that i am testing at the moment btw:

//Lands 17
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island

//Creatures 12
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Quirion Dryad

//Draw&Cardquality 12
4 Portent
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

//Counter 8
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

//Burn 'n' stuff 11
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
3 Predict

//Sideboard
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Pithing Needle
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Vedalken Shackles

What do you guys think about it?

[Joon]

Random thoughts:

Cut one land and 4 F/I for CB/Top Engine main to protect your Dryads.
Cut one land for 4th predict.
Cut Dryad, splash black and play Confidant in that slot (and again, with Bob CB/Top main would be cool)
Cut F/ice für Stifle (our meta has got some deeds that could ruin your day)
Cut Dryad for 2 Fledling Dragons/Drakes and 2 Tops/Shackles.

[FredMaster]

Ok one thing:
I don't like to see the Counter&Tops main because it slow you down like ****
It so Preboard too manaintensive imo. And I really want to keep being aggro.
And I think there are just some Decks (Landstill) against whom I don't drawing a Vedalken Shackle.
But Stifle is kind of a nice input. But i'd prefer to see it in Sb.
There are just too much random aggro decks in our meta, where i could just eat those Stifles as i can't use them.
But the question is:
What can I cut in Sb for those 3-4 Stifles?
I think the only positive thing about the FDragon is that it has flying.
Sometimes that can be really annoying, when there is just some random Boltproved Flyer I can not handle. :rolleyes:

@ Splash Idea:
This is the NQGr-Thread if I remember right.
Therefore you should make up a list and post it somewhere in the New and Development Forum.
I think there is even such a thread in the "Established" area.

[Joon]

Ok one thing:
I don't like to see the Counter&Tops main because it slow you down like ****
It so Preboard too manaintensive imo. And I really want to keep being aggro.

Your point.



And I think there are just some Decks (Landstill) against whom I don't drawing a Vedalken Shackle.

Actually I never saw a Landstill in our meta.



But Stifle is kind of a nice input. But i'd prefer to see it in Sb.
There are just too much random aggro decks in our meta, where i could just eat those Stifles as i can't use them.

Against these decks F/I is useless, too. What do you do against Hierarchs, Ascetics and CotH Tokens with F/I? Tap them? Mighty.



I think the only positive thing about the FDragon is that it has flying.

The only positive thing about the Goyf is that he's big. Finisher have usually some kind of evasion, haven't they?



Sometimes that can be really annoying, when there is just some random Boltproved Flyer I can not handle. :rolleyes:

Steal 'em with Shackles...



@ Splash Idea:
This is the NQGr-Thread if I remember right.
Therefore you should make up a list and post it somewhere in the New and Development Forum.
I think there is even such a thread in the "Established" area.

I don't care.
Well, you posted your deck here and wanted to have comments. Here they are, and if I think it's better to play an off-color Critter in the slot of one you use, I'll tell you so.

[Citrus-God]

I say limit the amount of Burn and run more quality cantrips to find creatures to answer other big creatures.

[Puzzle]

What is better, and why? Shackles or Threads... I own 50 Shackles... but Threads seems so good to... I've had expeiance where Shackles stalled a game out against Salvager for quite a while, but I dont know so help? Plz

Also Ive been trying to find a really good list with dryad and dragon in it and I was wondering if someone could hook me up with what they think is the best list.

Tanks a lotThis creature-stealing will most likely be in your side.
What creatures will you want to steal ? Goyf, Dryad, Werebears, what else ?

I'd actually suggest Mind Harness :
- if you can steal either of the above for 3-4 turns, you should be able to win.
- it's cheap enough to hinder goblins' fast starts efficiently (actually, in this respect, it belongs more in UG Thresh than UGr), improving dramatically chances of success.
- its cost fits Threshold's general mana deployment better than the other options.
Where it's weak is obviously against black, white and blue creatures but Threshold should have the upper hamd against most of the decks using these, with the exception of Serendib Efreet maybe.

[Ragnarok]

This is my current list:

Land (18):
4 Flooded Strand
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Creatures (11):

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Burning-Tree Shaman

Spells (28):

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Predict
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterspell
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fire/Ice

Artifacts (3):

3 Pithing Needle


The most important card choices:

Tarmogoyf:
What more do I have to say about this one.

Burning-Tree Shaman:
I've always liked this one, it's a pretty hard beater for cc3 and because in the European meta a lot of decks make use of activated abilities it can be a bomb. For instance, 43 lands. But also decks which make use of Jitte it's a killer. And it makes fetching pretty painfull.

Pithing Needle:
Since a few weeks I play this card mainboard instead of stifle and I can't say more then, it does his job very good.

A card I have tested was quirion dryad, but I played to few cards to make him in a few turns a dangerous creature. So I cut this one for 2 Predict and a fourth Daze. Predict seemed pretty good because I only ran eight cantrips before and now it's up to ten this gives me the advantage to quickly find the right answers. This also because I already had to cut 3 blue cards for the Pneedles. I'm pretty satisfied about this list, it has a good match up versus most of the DTW, DTB and ATW decks. Only fish has proven to be a tough match-up. And post-board makes it even worse. In my opinion the deck has one weakness, it can't deal with big creatures mainboard, the only option is countering. Also flying creatures can be a problem but then again the small one's can be bolted or fired. So big flying creatures are a must counter.
A rough version of my sideboard is listed below:

4 Pyroclasm
2 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Shattering Spree
3 Engineered Explosives

I'm not sure about the pyroclasms, is 4 too much. Because Goblins is probably less played since it is no longer a Tier 1 deck, but then again Meddling mages are also still played.

[Citrus-God]

I like your list, but I have some problems with it...

From the SB

-3 Shattering Spree
-3 Tormod's Crypt

+4 Leyline of the Void (Should be something else)
+2 Ancient Grudge

[DragoFireheart]

Does anyone think that this deck might run Tarfires to boost Goyf?

[aTn]

Today, I've been testing the following UGRW list on MWS and I have to say that my first impressions are good (for now, I've played against Elves, Didgeridoo.dec, Horsemanship + Equipment... not! , I've mostly playtested against UGR and UGW-Threshold, Goblins, Belcher and Cephalid Breakfast ).

Here's the list:

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions/Ponder
4 Predict
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterbalance

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares

3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

Sideboard (needs work)
4 Pyroclasm
4 Meddling Mage
3 Krosan Grip
2 Control Magic
2 Pithing Needle

For the most part, I took a UGR list and swapped the Fire/Ice with StoP, added two Mystic Enforcers and changed the manabase. I play CB-Top maindeck because Threshold and friends are common in my metagame. What do you think of my decklist ?

[Cait_Sith]

I like your list, but I have some problems with it...

From the SB

-3 Shattering Spree
-3 Tormod's Crypt

+4 Leyline of the Void (Should be something else)
+2 Ancient Grudge

Crypt is better in Thresh than Leyline simply because of all the cantrips Thresh runs (especially now that they have the blistering fast Ponder). If you don't find Leyline, you are in serious trouble, but if you don't find Crypt, you can desperately dig for it like a mad man in 1-2 turns and, if you find it, immediately play and activate it.

Also, if Leyline gets blown up then you are in trouble, but if Crypt dies you have the rest to try to use.

On the other hand Grudge over Spree is right for so many reasons I don't feel like listing them all. But yes, that is totally right.

[Citrus-God]

Crypt is better in Thresh than Leyline simply because of all the cantrips Thresh runs (especially now that they have the blistering fast Ponder). If you don't find Leyline, you are in serious trouble, but if you don't find Crypt, you can desperately dig for it like a mad man in 1-2 turns and, if you find it, immediately play and activate it.

Also, if Leyline gets blown up then you are in trouble, but if Crypt dies you have the rest to try to use.

On the other hand Grudge over Spree is right for so many reasons I don't feel like listing them all. But yes, that is totally right.

On the other hand,

Abeyance, Needle, Chalice, and such stop Crypt from being effective. The fact it forces you to mulligan is a small drawback, seeing as this deck only needs a land and a cantrip to work.

[Cait_Sith]

The problem is, if you mulligan twice and find no Leyline, you are COMPLETELY boned. With Tormod's Crypt you at least have the cantrip plan to go by.

Besides, the only deck you will have to worry about Abeyance antics like that from is Breakfast, and you should have other outlets against them as well, otherwise you are doomed anyway. Buying time is better than nothing (Note both Crypt and Leyline do that.)

[DragoFireheart]

On the other hand,

Abeyance, Needle, Chalice, and such stop Crypt from being effective. The fact it forces you to mulligan is a small drawback, seeing as this deck only needs a land and a cantrip to work.

Which forces you to draw into a hand that has:

1 Blue card.
1 Force of Will.
1 Leyline of the Void.
4 other decent cards.

Ichorid and other graveyard decks are going to be running bounce to counter Void and getting one bounce through is going to end your game.

[Citrus-God]

Which forces you to draw into a hand that has:

1 Blue card.
1 Force of Will.
1 Leyline of the Void.
4 other decent cards.

Ichorid and other graveyard decks are going to be running bounce to counter Void and getting one bounce through is going to end your game.

Would they mull for the bounce? Because chances are, I'll probably find my counters to protect my Leyline before they can find bounce.

[MattH]

@ aTn: I like the look of your deck a lot. Don't forget that white also gives you a potentially amazing SB card: Serenity.

[kabal]

Today, I've been testing the following UGRW list on MWS and I have to say that my first impressions are good

Actually, I have been testing out a version of UGrw as well. The real only difference between our builds is that you have gone the CounterBalance route.

2 Mystic Enforcer
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Predict
4 Ponder
3 Swords to Plowshares

1 Worship

2 Pithing Needle

4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
3 Meddling Mage
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pyroclasm
1 Worship
2 Threads of Disloyalty

[aTn]

Nice list Kabal !

I forgot about Worship :eek: Do you have anecdotes/comments about testing with Worship ?

@MathH: Yeah, I forgot about Serenity also (probably because match-ups like Affinity or other decks against which it would be useful aren't that common in my meta). What specific match-ups did you have in mind when you recommended Serenity ?

[Citrus-God]

ehh.... Now my list...


// Lands 17
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island


// Creatures 10
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mystic Enforcer


// Spells 33
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Portent
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Predict
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pithing Needle


// Sideboard 15
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Pyroclasm
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mystic Enforcer


Ehh.... I dont see much difference from our lists.

[kabal]

I have also been testing out a pure threshold version. Wondering what sorts of strategy do people employ when running Mental Note? Do you wait until you have insight into the top of your library? Or do you just go all out and risk removing useful cards?

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Werebear

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Fire (Fire/Ice)
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions
3 Stifle

3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
3 Wooded Foothills

[Volt]

I have also been testing out a pure threshold version. Wondering what sorts of strategy do people employ when running Mental Note? Do you wait until you have insight into the top of your library? Or do you just go all out and risk removing useful cards?

I tend to hold onto Mental Note until:

1) I have critters in play and need to get a couple more cards into the graveyard.
2) I can combo it with Brainstorm (or whatever) to get rid of chaff.
3) I desperately need to find something NOW and don't have any other cantrips.

On another note... While I prefer Predict, I think Mental Note is unfairly maligned by some people. It can be pretty slick in certain situations.

[kabal]

On another note... While I prefer Predict, I think Mental Note is unfairly maligned by some people. It can be pretty slick in certain situations.

With Ponder becoming legal soon, it would seem that Predict would be the better choice.

[from Cairo]

With Ponder becoming legal soon, it would seem that Predict would be the better choice.

I personally don't like Mental Note, but I feel like the same thing could be said for it. Any cards that potentially leave bad cards on top of the library make both Predict and Mental Note good. Brainstorm, Ponder, Portent, Serum Visions (although in Serum Visions you have more control).

For instance you Brainstorm and put back 2 bad cards, Predict will get rid of one, and give you one along with another card, so you're gaining some card advantage and 1 mystery card. Or you can Mental Note and get rid of both bad cards gaining 1 mystery card, but no card advantage.

In the case of Ponder you look at 3 see 1 good 2 bad, with Predict you can take the 1 good one and Predict one of the bad off the top for again 1 mystery card and one bad card, with Mental Note you can take the 1 good from Ponder and mill two bad cards off the top gaining 1 mystery card.

I think they both get better with the addition of Ponder. The question is: does one's particular build of Thresh want a 2cc card advantage cantrip that requires some set up or a 1cc cantrip that benefits from set up but doesn't really require it (and fuels thresh slightly better)?

[DragoFireheart]

I personally don't like Mental Note, but I feel like the same thing could be said for it. Any cards that potentially leave bad cards on top of the library make both Predict and Mental Note good. Brainstorm, Ponder, Portent, Serum Visions (although in Serum Visions you have more control).

For instance you Brainstorm and put back 2 bad cards, Predict will get rid of one, and give you one along with another card, so you're gaining some card advantage and 1 mystery card. Or you can Mental Note and get rid of both bad cards gaining 1 mystery card, but no card advantage.

In the case of Ponder you look at 3 see 1 good 2 bad, with Predict you can take the 1 good one and Predict one of the bad off the top for again 1 mystery card and one bad card, with Mental Note you can take the 1 good from Ponder and mill two bad cards off the top gaining 1 mystery card.

I think they both get better with the addition of Ponder. The question is: does one's particular build of Thresh want a 2cc card advantage cantrip that requires some set up or a 1cc cantrip that benefits from set up but doesn't really require it (and fuels thresh slightly better)?

Predict is a better choice for Portent while Ponder would probably go better with Mental Note or something.

How about using AK in Thresh?

[arsenalpow]

I have a list but I think I'm trying to do too much with it, it felt sort of clunky and unefficient at times, the wastelands might be to blame... The manabase only affected me once during my tourney where i couldn't locate green mana. The list moved undefeated through a 4 round swiss beating random aggro x2, iggy pop, and burn. Beat iggy pop in the top 4 and lost in the finals to goblins when the manabase started acting up.

-12 creatures-
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Werebear

-11 card quality-
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Mental Note

-8 Removal-
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire // Ice

-11 permission-
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle

-18 Mana Base-
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

-15 Sideboard-
4 Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip
3 Umezawa's Jitte (amazing in the mirror)
3 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives

[SouthAlly]

Arsenalplow, I think you should not use Mental Note any more. Try something with card advantage like Predict since games are not so dependent on beating Goblins to the punch any more. It will pay off against other aggro control decks.

[arsenalpow]

What is the fundamental turn for this deck? To me, turn 4 was really when i felt i had full control of the board. Mental note I felt was necessary to utilize werebear in a more aggressive manner, i originally was running 4 stifle 2 mental note, but werebear never had threshold when it mattered so i added the 3rd mental note to achieve threshold quicker.

[kabal]

Predict is a better choice for Portent while Ponder would probably go better with Mental Note or something.

Not sure I understand you logic here, considering that Portent/Ponder are very similar.

[DragoFireheart]

Not sure I understand you logic here, considering that Portent/Ponder are very similar.

You can use Portent on your opponent to deny them cards from their deck while at the same time netting yourself card advantage. You can't do this without Portent. You could still target yourself with Ponder however.

[CleverPetriDish]

You can use Portent on your opponent to deny them cards from their deck while at the same time netting yourself card advantage. You can't do this without Portent. You could still target yourself with Ponder however.No and no.

It lets you look at his top three cards (and hope that he does not have a fetchland available). You could, of course, force a shuffle. But then he draws a card on his turn as normal. And then it replaces itself on his upkeep.

This action does not deny the oppponent cards and does not net you card advantage. Portent on the opponent is not a big deal.

[Cait_Sith]

Portent on the opponent is not a big deal.

Except a cantripping double timewalk is. You can deny your opponent a needed card for two turns; you can see what he will be drawing soon to play your strategy. If your opponent is has 3 amazing hate cards coming, shuffle them away!

Drago: Your logic here is heavily flawed. Both Ponder and Portent favor Predict over Mental Note, as you can control what gets flipped more with Predict than with Mental Note. Also, both spells will fully push past all 3 of those cards on their own.

The real reason for Ponder over Portent is this: lands.

You can Ponder and dig for a land without missing a drop, but you cannot do that with Portent. This means you can easily be saving yourself an entire time, something dreadfully important early game.

[Citrus-God]

The real reason for Ponder over Portent is this: lands.

You can Ponder and dig for a land without missing a drop, but you cannot do that with Portent. This means you can easily be saving yourself an entire time, something dreadfully important early game.

Dont forget creatures, so you dont have to take a hit or two from Goyf during Goyf races.

[DragoFireheart]

Except a cantripping double timewalk is. You can deny your opponent a needed card for two turns; you can see what he will be drawing soon to play your strategy. If your opponent is has 3 amazing hate cards coming, shuffle them away!

Read this again, then read my next response.


Drago: Your logic here is heavily flawed. Both Ponder and Portent favor Predict over Mental Note, as you can control what gets flipped more with Predict than with Mental Note. Also, both spells will fully push past all 3 of those cards on their own.

But... you just said... what... [head asplodes]

You can use Predict with Portent to deny the opponent cards they may be drawing. Do you know how awesome it feels to Predict a spell that a person just tutored to the top of their library? [Ala legal tutors]. Do you know how great it is to get rid of one of their lands with a strip mine and to then Portent them, find more lands and Predict them away? It all plays in part with UGs land denial strat.


The real reason for Ponder over Portent is this: lands.

You can Ponder and dig for a land without missing a drop, but you cannot do that with Portent. This means you can easily be saving yourself an entire time, something dreadfully important early game.

I was never arguing this point anyways. but really, if it's the first turn and you have a land in your hand Ponder won't be faaster at dropping that land next turn anyhow as they both can drip 3-cards deep.

The REAL reason for Ponder over Portent is chaining-cantrips.

[aTn]

God am I tired of the cantrip debate, it's like a wave that comes back periodically. The choice of the cantrip list is mostly based on personal preferences and on how you want to play the deck, more aggro oriented, more control oriented, etc.


Predict is a better choice for Portent while Ponder would probably go better with Mental Note or something.

Please see pages 1-36 of this thread and please see the Ponder thread.


How about using AK in Thresh?

Rich Shay's list (10th at Gencon 2007)

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Opt

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
2 Misdirection

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Fire // Ice
2 Repeal

2 Isochron Scepter

3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard
4 Pyroclasm
1 Rough // Tumble
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
4 Meddling Mage
2 Krosan Grip

[DragoFireheart]

God am I tired of the cantrip debate, it's like a wave that comes back periodically. The choice of the cantrip list is mostly based on personal preferences and on how you want to play the deck, more aggro oriented, more control oriented, etc.


Well what would you suggest for cantrips for a AGGRO-control style?

For a aggro-CONTROL style?

[kabal]

Aggro:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Mental Note

Control:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Predict
3 SDT
2 Portent

[aTn]

@Anti: Yeah, I don't see much difference in our UGRw lists; it's nice to see how everyone made small changes that suit their playstyle.

@DragoFireheart: I'll stick with cantrip lists for versions of the deck that have had good results recently (for all the decklists, see the post I made earlier http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=165891&postcount=681 ).

Hope this helps.


cantrips for a AGGRO-control style?

There's the Bardoish cantrip list (see Liek's GP Columbus 6th place list):

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions/Ponder
4 Mental Note

There's the Gencon 4th place cantrip list:

4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
2 Mental Note

There's the Gencon 8th place cantrip list:

4 Serum Visions
4 Opt
4 Brainstorm


For aggro-CONTROL:

The Hatfield's cantrip list (Gencon Prelims Top 8 (2 players))

4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Predict
2 Serum Visions
2 Sensei's Divining Top

------
Aside
------

Currently, I play the following build:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterbalance

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fire/Ice

2 Pithing Needle

1 Forest
2 Island
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

Sideboard (heavily meta dependent)
3 Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip
3 Threads of D./Control Magic
3 Thormod's Crypt
3 Engineered Explosives

[DragoFireheart]

I see: Mental Note is some good fun at getting Threshold hyper-fast.

Thanks.

[chokin]

I see: Mental Note is some good fun at getting Threshold hyper-fast.

Thanks.

Why do you want Threshold "hyper-fast" when the only card that uses it is Nimble Mongoose? Sure Goyf uses the yard, but not the same way. Note is harder to guarantee you aren't milling away good cards without using a Brainstorm or Portent(or Ponder! :laugh: )

I personally like: 4 Brainstorm, 4 Serum Visions, 2 Portent(totally gone by Friday for 4 Ponder). Opt is really good when you run Stifle too. On the first couple of turns, leave a land untapped so if they want to fetch, you can Stifle it, or if they don't, you can Opt.

I'm liking the look of Sensei's Top in the MD. I've never tried it, but it looks really good.

My list has a bit more burn. What is the general opinion of the best burn and the best amount to run? What's the most optimal list of UGr Thresh to run.

[kabal]

Why do you want Threshold "hyper-fast" when the only card that uses it is Nimble Mongoose?

When did he say that the only Threshold creature he uses is Mongoose? If he is playing Werebear as well then Mental Note makes sense.

[chokin]

Well, assuming he's running what seems to be the standard, then it makes no sense to run it. In a very aggressive version of Threshold(Bears, Geese, and Goyfs), yes, it is a good card. But even then, wouldn't chaining cantrips be an overall better route? Refine your hand so you can burn them down? I could be wrong, mostly because it simply costs more mana to do it.

[DragoFireheart]

When did he say that the only Threshold creature he uses is Mongoose? If he is playing Werebear as well then Mental Note makes sense.

This.

I am currently making my Thresh deck to run Goose/Goyf/Grizziles.

I want my aggro to have a bit more of "SMASH FACE" with a little bit of "lol, u cast wath o dog? NO!"

I am still debating on whether I should stay as UG with mana denial or go UGR for burn. It'd probably make sense to go UGR for the burn route since I am trying to make an aggresive Thresh deck.

[chokin]

This.

I am currently making my Thresh deck to run Goose/Goyf/Grizziles.

I want my aggro to have a bit more of "SMASH FACE" with a little bit of "lol, u cast wath o dog? NO!"

I am still debating on whether I should stay as UG with mana denial or go UGR for burn. It'd probably make sense to go UGR for the burn route since I am trying to make an aggresive Thresh deck.

I like the red. UG is very disruptive and kinda reminds me of good ol' UG Madness from back when I was new to Legacy. UGr's burn pushes through extra damage and Fire/Ice can tap an opposing creature and let your angry creatures push more damage though.

[DragoFireheart]

I like the red. UG is very disruptive and kinda reminds me of good ol' UG Madness from back when I was new to Legacy. UGr's burn pushes through extra damage and Fire/Ice can tap an opposing creature and let your angry creatures push more damage though.

I would ask for a deck list you would suggest, but then I would be really lazy on my part as I have this entire thread to look at. :tongue:

Something that would be really cool though is if there were some way to include fireblast into thresh. :cool:

[Soto]

It already runs like 17-18 lands, -2 is ouch, even though it might be the 4 last damage you need.

[aTn]

What is the general opinion of the best burn and the best amount to run? What's the most optimal list of UGr Thresh to run.

Cocky answer: Read the previous pages of this thread.

Helpful answer (I hope):

From my point of view, there's a lot of good UGR builds but there's no single "optimal list" or optimal burn package.

The lists contained in the following post are recent and were successful at recent major events. I think they're a good starting point to make your own personal tests/experimentations.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=165891&postcount=681

[chokin]

My most recent list that I played last Saturday looked something like:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Burning-Tree Shaman

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Portent(dear god, make Ponder come out already...2 more days!)

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire/Ice
4 Magma Jet

1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

I went 7-3. Notes after the tournament were that BTS hurt like a bitch(but playing 2 completely shut down a White Weenie deck relying pretty heavy on Jitte to beat me) and was always boarded out for SDT and CB "combo".

From that I'm doing:
-3 BTS
-1 Forest

+2 Fire/Ice
+2 Portent

-or-
-3 BTS

+3 Stifle

The reason why I'd cut that Forest is simply because I only run 8 green spells MD and having it in the opening hand kinda sucked most of the time.

[DragoFireheart]

My most recent list that I played last Saturday looked something like:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Burning-Tree Shaman

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Portent(dear god, make Ponder come out already...2 more days!)

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire/Ice
4 Magma Jet

1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

I went 7-3. Notes after the tournament were that BTS hurt like a bitch(but playing 2 completely shut down a White Weenie deck relying pretty heavy on Jitte to beat me) and was always boarded out for SDT and CB "combo".

From that I'm doing:
-3 BTS
-1 Forest

+2 Fire/Ice
+2 Portent

-or-
-3 BTS

+3 Stifle

The reason why I'd cut that Forest is simply because I only run 8 green spells MD and having it in the opening hand kinda sucked most of the time.

You still want that one forest. All it takes is a sinkhole/wasteland and an extirpate to ruin your day :frown: