[OLD] UGr Threshold [Archive] - Page 4

chokin

10-11-2007, 12:22 PM

DragoFireheart

10-11-2007, 12:38 PM

Thats a very good argument for the Thresh mirror argument. Post board it seems like UGR Thresh is very strong.

T is for TOOL

10-11-2007, 01:33 PM

I'd say that the white splash has a better matchup against combo due to Meddling Mage and Teeg. Some guys listed other good things(Chant and Abeyance), but I haven't seen much of that played. Geddon does well against Solidarity once you get a threat online.
Thresh does well against combo regardless of which color splash you choose. Both will side in Counterbalance and some form of board removal, in the form of Grip, and either E.E or Pyroclasm, as the situation dictates.

Red doesn't do as well against combo. Sure Pyroclasm gets ETW...and even Zombie Tokens in Ichorid(assuming they don't kill you first). But not all decks use 1/1s and 2/2s.
You claim that red won't do as well against combo, but then you don't explain why. What combo decks is the URG splash weaker against than the UWG splash and why?

Counterbalance is good, but very limited. To keep it actively countering, it drains 2-3 mana a turn. When you're using your mana to do that, you go into a near Draw, Go playstyle until you hit more lands or get enough counters in hand.
This is wrong. Counterbalance is good because it is not limited. Once it resolves it will trigger on any spell your opponent plays, at no cost. Furthermore correct manipulation of the top of your library requires minimal mana investment. With a Counterbalance on the table you can play a single threat and protect it while it wins you the game.

I think red is superior in the mirror. I had a discussion about this yesterday with someone. Assume both sides bring in CB+Top(they might use Grip to hit each others CB and maybe EE to kill Geese). Red might bring in REB/Pyroblast(3-4) and White might bring in...what...maybe BEB/Hydroblast(3-4). Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but REB/Pyro has a much higher chance of being used(hits Mage, CB, BEB, Force, Spell Snare, Daze, any cantrip if you really want) than BEB/Hydro is a bit more limited(REB, Bolt, Jet, Fire/Ice). So if White tries to resolve a CB, Red can use all of it's counters to stop it. White can only use Force/SS/Daze...with 2 less mana than what it had. Red, however, has a slightly better shot at getting one through only having to fight Force/SS/Daze. The BEB(if any were put in) only target red, so it's useless in a counter war unless they use REB.White has an advantage in the first game because Swords to Plowshares is much better removal than Lightning Bolt. Post board both sides will bring in Counterbalance and Grip. Depending on the SB choices, there may also be Threads of Disloyalty or Control Magic or others. Neither REB nor BEB answers opposing creatures, and REB is not a solid answer to a resolved Counterbalance. Again, however, the white removal will be better post SB as well. REB may be better than BEB in the mirror, but neither should be run so the point is moot.

donkyranger

10-11-2007, 02:48 PM

kabal

10-11-2007, 03:11 PM

I played White splash at Legacy Championships at Gen Con and got 33 finishing with a 4-1-3 record.

Could you post your deck list in the Ugw thread?

Citrus-God

10-11-2007, 03:36 PM

I dont know why people think white splash is better. And I agree very little to the statement that Swords is better then Lightning Bolt. I played White splash at Legacy Championships at Gen Con and got 33 finishing with a 4-1-3 record. The three tied games were tied because I couldnt kill them and the control part of the deck did its job, but then late game they did what they were sppost to with there decks and I was left to just stall out the game. Swords has its ups but the downs just dont work in Threshold.

It's the fact you jusy run Swords to Plowshares....

There is much more to the splash, like,

What is your Sideboard?

What is your playstyle?

What is your cantrip configuration?

What are your counters?

What are your match-ups?

All I can conclude is that, not all Threshold match-ups have the same match-ups unless it's against 43 Land.

chokin

10-11-2007, 07:25 PM

You claim that red won't do as well against combo, but then you don't explain why. What combo decks is the URG splash weaker against than the UWG splash and why?

I did sorta. Simply put, Meddling Mage wrecks combo. Teeg will do the same(but then Force is dead). Aside from the usual counters (and possibility of Stifle), Red Thresh purely relies on the faster clock. White has Mage+Teeg to stop part of the combo from getting off the ground.

This is wrong. Counterbalance is good because it is not limited. Once it resolves it will trigger on any spell your opponent plays, at no cost. Furthermore correct manipulation of the top of your library requires minimal mana investment. With a Counterbalance on the table you can play a single threat and protect it while it wins you the game.

I think what I mean was that it is limiting. Meaning it requires a lot of mana to make it work successfully, meaning you'll have to wait for more than 3 lands to play much. CB in Thresh can counter 1cc, 2cc, sometimes 3cc, and sometimes 5cc. But in order to keep up with anything your opponent does, it's going to use 2-3 mana a turn. I meant it limits what you can do with your lands.

White has an advantage in the first game because Swords to Plowshares is much better removal than Lightning Bolt. Post board both sides will bring in Counterbalance and Grip. Depending on the SB choices, there may also be Threads of Disloyalty or Control Magic or others. Neither REB nor BEB answers opposing creatures, and REB is not a solid answer to a resolved Counterbalance. Again, however, the white removal will be better post SB as well. REB may be better than BEB in the mirror, but neither should be run so the point is moot.

Swords is better removal, but isn't flexible. Red's burn can't kill anything beyond a x/2 or x/3 without the help of another spell, but if they don't play any creatures, that spell is turned into a chunk out of their life totals.

I'd say that White does better against combo because of Mage+Teeg, and Red does better against aggro because of 8-12 burn spells and Pyroclasm in the board. White has less removal(4 vs 8-12) and the same amount of counters(10-12). This gives White SOME room for more cantrips or Pithing Needles or Engineered Explosives(or CB+SDT).

White has 4 removal spells(basically "must-counter" cards). If Red can keep STP away from Goyf and prevent an Enforcer breaking the ground lock, Red can pull through. All red has to do is swing, forcing a chump or double block(taking damage from Red's Goyf is more of a threat than White's from the burn). If White blocks the Goyf with a Goyf, Red can burn it down. If they have a lot of Goyfs, Ice them out and swing. Really, Red can push through a lot of damage, making the burn way lethal. That's why I say it's better in the mirror. I've played both against both mirror matches. White is very disruptive, but Red usually wins. Mage stops a lot of combo cold.

Citrus-God

10-11-2007, 07:36 PM

That's just prejudice, thinking Red handles Aggro because it has 7-12 Burn Spells. Have you ever stopped and think about it that Pyroclasm is all the deck needs to work, besides 4 Lightning Bolts?

chokin

10-11-2007, 08:16 PM

That's just prejudice, thinking Red handles Aggro because it has 7-12 Burn Spells. Have you ever stopped and think about it that Pyroclasm is all the deck needs to work, besides 4 Lightning Bolts?

I'm sitting here looking at the lists from Worlds. The best UGr deck used 4 Bolts, 4 Fire/Ice. The next? Used the same. The worst out of UGr that placed in the top 8 has 5(3 Bolt, 2 Fire/Ice). Each ran at least 3 Pyroclasm in the board. Prejudice? Hardly.

Looking at what other users are posting, Kabal is running 7, ArsenalPow is running 8, aTn runs 7, I personally run 8-12, Fredmaster uses 8, Ragnarok uses 7, I saw some(2-3) foreign decks running 5, and a German list ran 8 and placed in the top 5 at a tournament with 175 players.

Total decks with 8+ burn: 1
Total decks with 8 burn: 4
Total decks with 7 burn: 3
Total decks with 5 burn: 2

So...from what I found(mostly on this forum), most red splash uses 7+ Burn. Few run less, and even fewer run more than 8.

I'm cutting going down to 8 burn and will probably be playing another creature this week. I run 2 Pyroclasm in the side, will that go up? Maybe. We'll see what testig does for me. Pyroclasm is great, but I have only boarded it in in one matchup so far. How does it do against the mirror?

Nihil Credo

10-11-2007, 09:50 PM

Janky idea - have 2-3 Electrolyze ever been tried in more controllish UGr builds? It gains CA, it pitches to FoW, and it provides a 3cc card for Counterbalance.

T is for TOOL

10-11-2007, 10:49 PM

I did sorta. Simply put, Meddling Mage wrecks combo. Teeg will do the same(but then Force is dead). Aside from the usual counters (and possibility of Stifle), Red Thresh purely relies on the faster clock. White has Mage+Teeg to stop part of the combo from getting off the ground.
Thresh wrecks combo. You already have an extremely strong matchup against combo decks regardless of which splash you are running. Additionally, Counterbalance and Board sweepers can be brought in games 2 and 3 to maintain or increase that advantage. The SB slots occupied by Mage and Teeg can be better spent on other cards because UWG Thresh already has a powerful suite of cards to board in against combo. I'm saying that the white splash having access to exclusive combo hate is a moot point because that additional hate is not necessary.

I think what I mean was that it is limiting. Meaning it requires a lot of mana to make it work successfully, meaning you'll have to wait for more than 3 lands to play much. CB in Thresh can counter 1cc, 2cc, sometimes 3cc, and sometimes 5cc. But in order to keep up with anything your opponent does, it's going to use 2-3 mana a turn. I meant it limits what you can do with your lands.
Brainstorm, Divining Top, Portent/Ponder, and Serum Visions all allow you to stack multiple cards on top of your library. Depending on the board position and opposing deck you can often setup your next draw and tap out to play a threat knowing that Balance will be relevant next turn. Furthermore the decks is still running free countermagic in the form of Daze and Force.

Swords is better removal, but isn't flexible. Red's burn can't kill anything beyond a x/2 or x/3 without the help of another spell, but if they don't play any creatures, that spell is turned into a chunk out of their life totals.
Red's burn can't kill Tarmogofy on it's own, which is becoming increasingly relevant in the format. If they don't play creatures, they are most likely playing combo, in which case you will be shipping your burn spells to the bottom of your deck anyway.

I'd say that White does better against combo because of Mage+Teeg, and Red does better against aggro because of 8-12 burn spells and Pyroclasm in the board. White has less removal(4 vs 8-12) and the same amount of counters(10-12). This gives White SOME room for more cantrips or Pithing Needles or Engineered Explosives(or CB+SDT). As I said before, both versions of the deck handle combo fine. You can argue that one of them beats combo even more when you play with additional SB hate but that's not really a point in the deck's favor.

White has 4 removal spells(basically "must-counter" cards). If Red can keep STP away from Goyf and prevent an Enforcer breaking the ground lock, Red can pull through. All red has to do is swing, forcing a chump or double block(taking damage from Red's Goyf is more of a threat than White's from the burn). If White blocks the Goyf with a Goyf, Red can burn it down. If they have a lot of Goyfs, Ice them out and swing. Really, Red can push through a lot of damage, making the burn way lethal. That's why I say it's better in the mirror. I've played both against both mirror matches. White is very disruptive, but Red usually wins. Mage stops a lot of combo cold.
You're effectively playing the exact same deck against itself. On the one side, you are running burn spells which are functionally useless as removal without another creature on the board. On the other side, you are running solid removal spells, and additional cantrips to help you find not only your solid removal spells, but also your Gofys. White most definitely has the advantage in the mirror.

Citrus-God

10-12-2007, 12:14 AM

I'm cutting going down to 8 burn and will probably be playing another creature this week. I run 2 Pyroclasm in the side, will that go up? Maybe. We'll see what testig does for me. Pyroclasm is great, but I have only boarded it in in one matchup so far. How does it do against the mirror?

Personally, I think the best thing to do is run Dragons again, just to break stalemates.

As for Pyroclasm, it's an easy 4-of in the Board. It's essential against decks with small creatures. That may be weaker right now, considering UGw Threshold is just better against the mirror.

Only problem I see with Goyfs is that you need a Goyf to be around if you want your Burn to be effective, so it requires a bit of set-up and setting for the trap. UGw doesnt need a Goyf to be good, which is why it is good right now.

Which brings me to the point that you need to run more 1cc cantrips. Finding Goyfs is essential in the mirror. Cantrips do that for you.

chokin

10-12-2007, 12:47 AM

Personally, I think the best thing to do is run Dragons again, just to break stalemates.

As for Pyroclasm, it's an easy 4-of in the Board. It's essential against decks with small creatures. That may be weaker right now, considering UGw Threshold is just better against the mirror.

Only problem I see with Goyfs is that you need a Goyf to be around if you want your Burn to be effective, so it requires a bit of set-up and setting for the trap. UGw doesnt need a Goyf to be good, which is why it is good right now.

Which brings me to the point that you need to run more 1cc cantrips. Finding Goyfs is essential in the mirror. Cantrips do that for you.

I agree that the deck needs a lot more ways to find a Goyf. So what cantrips do we run? 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Serum Visions and...? Maybe Predict as a 2 of or a couple of MD Sensei's Divining Top.

@ Taco- Maybe my analysis on CB was a bit off, but I recall a few games in which I got stuck, even after agressively cantripping, on 3 lands. I still won, but it took forever.Thresh does good against combo, but I was saying that Mage does silly things against combo and Teeg will too. The end. I never ever ever said that Red sucked against it, but was implying that white has a few more answers/threats to combo.

arsenalpow

10-12-2007, 08:14 AM

Red's burn can't kill Tarmogofy on it's own, which is becoming increasingly relevant in the format.

Thats why we run ice to tap them down so we can swing for the win.

Off topic: has anyone else run wasteland in the red build with any degree of success?

donkyranger

10-12-2007, 08:31 AM

donkyranger

10-12-2007, 08:38 AM

Janky idea - have 2-3 Electrolyze ever been tried in more controllish UGr builds? It gains CA, it pitches to FoW, and it provides a 3cc card for Counterbalance.

I think that this although not as good as fire / ice deserves testing because a cantriping fire could be quite good. The only problem it does cost :u::r::1: and not as good against goblins because you have to wait until turn 3 to kill the Lackey which is way to late.

Citrus-God

10-12-2007, 12:53 PM

Thats why we run ice to tap them down so we can swing for the win.

Why would you tap a Goyf when you can just ram one of your Goyfs at one of theirs, just so you can Burn into oblivion?

I find the burn option more effective against Goyfs.

Solpugid

10-12-2007, 04:36 PM

Yes, I run wasteland even though everyone in my team says it isnt good. I disagree. They make the Mirror a brezze. Because they most likely waste a stifle on a fetchland. I love the can in the deck. The only thing is that it has to take up two of the card slots in the deck because if not then it screw with the Mana base too mcuh.

See, I just don't understand this logic at all. Yes, you're destroying a possibly important land (maybe the only green source your opponent has) but you and your opponent have the same mana base (usually) besides the wastelands. Therefore, in playing wastelands you limit your ability to find colored mana just as much as you do your opponent by destroying his or her land. BUT (and this is important) your opponent gets to tap that land for mana before you get to kill it.

So, all factors besides wasteland help equal, you are rarely getting an advantage in the mirror, and even open yourself up more to stifles. How is this good again? Now in other matchups I could see them being usable (i.e. waste a tundra, drop a goyf against Landstill), although not that useful.

Berzerked

10-12-2007, 11:15 PM

Therefore, in playing wastelands you limit your ability to find colored mana just as much as you do your opponent by destroying his or her land.

The only thing is that it has to take up two of the card slots in the deck because if not then it screw with the Mana base too mcuh.

He has the exact same chance to find color, plus he runs two free, uncounterable LD cards that just happen to also tap for mana. Possibly in the Pithing Needle slot. Seems like a decent option to me.

Solpugid

10-13-2007, 08:31 PM

Oh ok, I missed that spells were cut instead of lands. However, I still don't like that call in the three-color build. Dropping spells just seems terrible against any deck that can't be land-screwed easily, such as 2-3 color landstills, combo, and most aggro (the top of the list being goblins). Oh well, I haven't tested it so maybe my opinions shouldn't be taken too seriously.

Citrus-God

10-14-2007, 04:08 AM

What Wasteland does...

-Forces you to make more aggressive mulligans.

-Harder to keep UU open for Counterbalance, and Counterspell.

So my conclusion is, it is possible to run Wastelands and Stifles in UGR Thresh... Burn makes this deck just good in general, and with this clock, it should make UGR good.

Here's my list of UGR Wasteland-Grow

// Lands 18
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
4 Volcanic Island

// Creatures 8
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

// Spells 34
4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Portent
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Stifle
4 REMAND!!!!
4 Lightning Bolt

// Sideboard 15
4 Pyroclasm
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Threads of Disloyalty

YES, I LOVE REMAND!!!

I play time walks in this deck. I Waste, I stifle, I make it even worse and Remand. When a Goyf is just applying the beatz, Remands are nuts.

Need to resolve a Goyf, why not Remand it? My god, am I in love with them.

godryk

10-14-2007, 07:54 AM

Wouldn't you play any sorcery cantrip over Opt? It seems to me you have a very low sorcery count to feed Goyf properly. I suppose opt is there to allow you to stay untapped in order to play stifle/spell snare if necesary, but I think that any goyf deck should run at least 8 sorceries.

Obfuscate Freely

10-14-2007, 12:27 PM

I don't understand how you guys are cutting blue sources for Wastelands. If this deck only needs 14 islands, why have we run 17 for so long?

DragoFireheart

10-14-2007, 12:39 PM

I also don't understand how this deck can manage to run 4-wastelands with only 14 islands. Seems like we are cutting the mana base a bit close?

kabal

10-14-2007, 12:40 PM

I don't understand how you guys are cutting blue sources for Wastelands. If this deck only needs 14 islands, why have we run 17 for so long?

That is a good question. But can it really function with only 14 islands? People that have been playing a wasteland build, how often do you have to aggressively mulligan? When you end up playing against what could be categorized as a mono color deck, how often do the wastelands hurt you? Onto of that, does the wasteland build have trouble finding a second color mana source? Is this the reason to just keep your build to U/G?

DragoFireheart

10-14-2007, 12:49 PM

That is a good question. But can it really function with only 14 islands? People that have been playing a wasteland build, how often do you have to aggressively mulligan? When you end up playing against what could be categorized as a mono color deck, how often do the wastelands hurt you? Onto of that, does the wasteland build have trouble finding a second color mana source? Is this the reason to just keep your build to U/G?

Yes, yes it is. It's too easy for the wasteland to simply mana screw you over in an opening draw. The wastelands are also somewhat useless against mono-colored decks.

Two colors can be somewhat tricky with my U/G thresh deck. How in the world you run 3 colors AND wastelands is beyond me: you are just asking for someone to use wasteland against you. :frown:

MattH

10-14-2007, 12:53 PM

I'm not sure whether Memory Lapse or Remand is better. Remand really blows vs. Force of Will, but Remanding a cheap (but not free) spell makes them try to play it twice in one turn, making Daze more effective (because they tapped twice the mana).

Of course, if you're playing Predict, Memory Lapse is definitely better.

Anarky87

10-14-2007, 01:38 PM

I wouldn't say it's easy to get mana screwed by Wasteland in your opening hand. Having switched up my UGb Thresh to include Wasteland, I can count on one hand the number of times I've had to mulligan because of Waste. It just really doesn't screw you up. You're playing 11-14 cantrips to find land. The reason you can run 3 colors is because you're playing 13-14 colored sources. You're also playing Stifles and Fetchlands (and to a lesser degree, Daze) which protect your mana base.

Sometimes you just win games by Wasting a land and Stifling a fetch. Either that or it gives you such a huge tempo boost that Tarmogoyf just goes all the way. Against mono-colored decks, they aren't so great, but then you play Brainstorm/Predict/Mental Note/Fetches. All of which let you get rid of them. But how many competitive decks are you seeing that are mono-colored that aren't Goblins (I don't count burn because it's just a bad deck)?

Obfuscate Freely

10-14-2007, 02:38 PM

If you can get away with playing only 13-14 colored sources, is it best to use the extra room for Wastelands? I think I'd rather run more spells in those slots.

Anarky87

10-14-2007, 02:54 PM

I believe I'd keep Wasteland. Against a lot of decks, the one-two punch of Waste and Stifle is enough to keep mana hungry control decks out of the game. It also compliments Daze as well, because you create a situation where it is extremely difficult for your opponent to play around it.

It seems to me that Thresh has kind of adopted Goblins idea of running small land control package as a means to force through it's own threats. And it can play counters.

Obfuscate Freely

10-14-2007, 03:06 PM

kabal

10-14-2007, 03:24 PM

Well, I'm not sold on the LD package. I mean, look at this list:

//16
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Portent
4x Predict

//12
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Werebear

//11
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Pithing Needle

//8
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Fire/Ice

//13
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
3x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island

I was able to fit a lot of things into this list by cutting lands. It doesn't have the LD package, but it does have extra draw, removal, and threats. What does everyone think?

Seem to me that you are going to spend the bulk of your time casting cantrip, after cantrip since having such an reduced land base. That being said, you'd think that more free spells would fit nicely. Things like submerge (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=21296), misdirection and maybe snapback? This is why I think that the wasteland build seems better suited to play just U/g.

Obfuscate Freely

10-14-2007, 03:29 PM

That manabase doesn't seem "reduced" when compared to the builds with Wasteland that people have posted in this thread.

More free spells would definitely be nice, but if any of them (besides Force and Daze, of course) were really playable they'd be nice in any build of Thresh.

Citrus-God

10-14-2007, 04:11 PM

I don't understand how you guys are cutting blue sources for Wastelands. If this deck only needs 14 islands, why have we run 17 for so long?

I only see this deck functioning optimally with 16 Blue sources. 14 is too low, that is why Aggressive mulligans are made. The same applies with the lack of good cantrips in Tempo-Thresh.

The deck can work fine... but it still needs tons of work to be done on it.

Obfuscate Freely

10-14-2007, 04:36 PM

I only see this deck functioning optimally with 16 Blue sources. 14 is too low...

The deck can work fine...
What? Does your list (the one with Wastelands) need more lands or not?

Citrus-God

10-14-2007, 04:41 PM

What? Does your list (the one with Wastelands) need more lands or not?

Well... I had the mindset done... but I will admit, it mulligans very aggressively. It made the deck play like 4c Landstill with Wastelands in the deck. An option I was considering was actually boarding in Wastelands to compliment Stifles in certain trouble match-ups.

But yes, I would run more lands. I might cut a Wasteland for another Island, and probably a Remand.

kabal

10-17-2007, 10:21 AM

I was just browsing through some old Legacy articles @ SCG and came across the below deck list in an article by Chris Coppola.

Maindeck:

Artifacts
3 Pithing Needle

Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Werebear

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force Of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Predict

Sorceries
3 Portent
4 Serum Visions

Basic Lands
1 Forest
2 Island

Lands
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
3 Loaming Shaman
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Krosan Grip
3 Stifle
4 Pyroclasm

There are some obvious improvements that can be made like replacing Counterspells with Stifle or maybe Fire/Ice, since this build is suppose to be extremely aggressive, Ponder over SV and adding fetch over one of the basic Islands. That brings me to my point, the article stated that this build is more on the aggro side than control (odd due to the Counterspell inclusion); does the cantrip base lend itself to that statement?

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions (or Ponder)
3 Portent
3 Predict

Will this get you the early Threshold that is needed running the above creature base, or should the 3 count cantrips be replaced by Mental Note?

Solpugid

10-17-2007, 05:09 PM

I've been running that exact cantrip base for over a year now, and it is definitely not on the aggressive side. It lends itself well to chaining cantrips, true, but those cantrips usually draw me into counters to control the game, not go aggro. Obviously I'll be switching the portents to ponders, and dropping the fourth serum visions for the last ponder.

I always disliked mental note, and I think it's especially bad now that tarmogoyf has replaced werebear, so to me an aggressive list should just drop the counterspells for more burn. If speed is such a concern, I don't know if pithing needle and predict should go too (since I never play agressively with the deck) so I'll let someone else tackle that.

Edit: Oh ok, so that list runs werebear in addition to goyf. Then yes, mental note should proably replace predict.

aTn

10-17-2007, 06:07 PM

Has anyone tested against BaseRuption ? I didn't have the time to playtest the match-up yet but I think UGR-Thresh could have a hard time winning. Maybe Wasteland + Stifle builds have a better chance of winning...

@Mental Note:

Pre-Goyf, I've played the 4/4/4 Brainstorm, Serum Visions, Mental Note cantrip base (see Liek's GP Columbus 6th place list) for a while. It made the deck agressive, but I really disliked Mental Note against decks where I needed to dig for specific cards (for example, Pyroclasm/Stifle/Fow/Needle against Belcher or TES).

Since the mirror is common nowadays, I switched to 4/4/4 Brainstorm, Serum Visions (soon to be Ponder), Predict to be able to play CB-Top maindeck (3 CB, 2 Tops) and to assemble the 'combo' quickly. I'm not saying it's 'the thing to do', but I'm more comfortable with my current cantrip list than with my previous one (BS, SV, MN).

Citrus-God

10-18-2007, 02:53 PM

As of Pre-Lorwyn, the cantrip base was

4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Predict
3 Sensei's Divining Top

They kinda dropped visions, considering Top does that cantrip chains do already, but much better.

Isaac

10-22-2007, 12:51 AM

I ran this decklist this past weekend at the 1.5 I was in.

4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland

3 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Quirion Dryad
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
3 Spell Snare
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire+Ice
2 Stifle

Sideboard:
3 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Spell Snare
2 Stifle
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Naturalize
4 Pyroclasm

I'm thinking of takeing out the mental notes, and visions. The visions are going to be taken out for ponders and the mental notes I'm not sure about maybe another cantrip or something else. Side I'm iffy about as well. Grip's work wonderfully against counterballance and hell even top and shackels is harder to get rid of than threads.

Citrus-God

10-25-2007, 06:00 PM

Here's my list...

// Lands 17
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
2 Island

// Creatures 10
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Fledgling Dragon

// Spells 33
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Predict
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Pithing Needle
3 Counterbalance

// Sideboard 15
1 Counterbalance
2 Krosan Grip
2 Seal of Primordium
4 Pyroclasm
3 Blood Moon
3 Tormod's Crypt

Blood Moon is just simply amazing against Landstill and 43 Land.

Tormod's Crypt is used in fear of Cephalid Breakfast and Ichorid. For me, Breakfast not too much, but most definitely Ichorid.

Counterbalance is maindecked now in favor of a better threshold match-up, and still maintain the same tools to use against Goblins as well.

arsenalpow

10-29-2007, 10:51 AM

Finally got to test ponder in a tournament setting and I am sold. There were at least 3 times when if i were playing serum visions i would have been at a serious disadvantage. SV is good when you have a second draw to get to those 2 scry cards if you really need them.

Ponder just feels like a sorcery speed brainstorm, i'll be using it permanently in my UGr build.

Citrus-God

10-29-2007, 07:40 PM

Kyachi

10-30-2007, 12:30 AM

I would like to open the forum up to a communal blowjob with respect to Ponder...
Seriously though, Ponder changes a huge dynamic of the deck for me, and after the addition of Counter/Top and Ponder, I feel like I'm playing a hugely different deck, which isn't that bad, I guess. I play with brainstorms a lot differently now is a big thing, I use it more as a hand fixer than the "Oh, Shit" purpose that it has served, again to mixed results.

One final thought; does wizards watch Legacy and print cards that make threshold good? Wait, they don't know it's a format.

T is for TOOL

10-31-2007, 10:11 AM

Add more content to your posts and keep them on-topic.
-TOOL

ReAnimated

10-31-2007, 10:47 AM

kicks_422

10-31-2007, 10:55 AM

I guess because the burn that comes with the red splash gives the deck the reach that the white splash version sorely misses. Also, Meddling Mage ain't so good anymore with all the combo decks adapting themselves against them.

nastynate

10-31-2007, 11:18 AM

Why do some people sitll pefer the R version over any other version , this seems like a poor decision to me.

R offered Bolt for reach and Removal but now Goyf > Bolt
R also offered Pyroclasm but storn combo and etw tokens are on the decline (as well as goblins)
R has Fledgling Dragon but enforcer work as well (Even though you can pump the dragon with that extra mana)

W offers swords , Swords > Goyf
W offers Meddling Mage , a better answer to combo

So can someone explain to me why pople still play R as their only splash?

Red handles random aggro much better than white. Burn spells like bolt and fire // ice are never dead cards (like swords to plowshares) against certain creature-lite or creature-less decks. Besides, goyf-on-goyf mirrors can still be won with burn so swords to plowshares is not necessarily a strictly superior choice.

Red also has some very strong side-board options: ancient grudge vs. artifacts, pyroclasm vs fast aggro, red elemental blast vs. blue control decks, and numerous others.

Meddling Mage is great verses combo (that's true), but it isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread; it's fragile (easily killed or bounced), slow (when on the draw, MM gives a combo deck two unmolested turns before it comes down), and it's blind (you need to know what you're matched up against in order to name the most effective card). I like MM much better in UWB Fish decks where you have duress and/or thoughtseize first turn, to better gauge what you need to use the MM for on turn two.

As far as I'm concerned, swords to plowshares is the best reason for the white splash, and that just isn't enough to make white the clearly superior choice over red.

Citrus-God

10-31-2007, 12:06 PM

Why do some people sitll pefer the R version over any other version , this seems like a poor decision to me.

Because Red has better SB options than White does.

R offered Bolt for reach and Removal but now Goyf > Bolt

Ram Goyf into Goyf, Bolt opposing Goyf. That works, right?

R also offered Pyroclasm but storn combo and etw tokens are on the decline (as well as goblins)

Wait until Survival gets big... then you'll see Pyroclasm shine.

R has Fledgling Dragon but enforcer work as well (Even though you can pump the dragon with that extra mana)

And Fledgling Dragon will forever be better than Enforcer simply because it takes two turns to win with Dragon, whereas, it takes 3 turns with Enforcer.

W offers swords , Swords > Goyf

True. Swords actually stops Breakfast, whereas, Bolt cant do shit when a Goyf is down and Nomad just laughs at you.

W offers Meddling Mage , a better answer to combo

Mage is shit... Counterbalance is where it's at...

And besides, because of Counterbalance, Red can compete with White.

So can someone explain to me why pople still play R as their only splash?

Blood Moon is better than Armageddon (which actually does something against 43 Land). Pyroclasm is better than Stifles and Hydroblasts. Fledgling Dragon is better than Enforcer.

Adan

10-31-2007, 12:11 PM

White also offers very good sideboard choices against a lot of decks, like Worship, Dueling Grounds, Jotun Grunt, Armageddon, Meddling Mage, Gaddock Teeg...What does Red ***** offers? Blood Moon? You have to be kidding me.

And NQGw is capable of running Counterbalance. Compared with NQGr, Counterbalance just don't fits into the concept of NQGr.
I would like to quote Clemens here (Der_imaginäre_Freund):

NQGw -> AggroCONTROL
NQGr -> AGGROcontrol

Also, runnign more permanents makes Nimble Mongoose suck. That's why you shouldn't play Countertop in NQGr, because it will also hinder NQGr to play the role as a aggrodeck when it has to be aggressive.

It's true that burn provides more flexibility in random-metas, but in some random metas randomstuff like Tombstalkers or Grave-Shell Scrab can simply smash your face in. NQGr is also not very good against Ichorid, but NQGw has still got a chance (it just depends in the SB).

And a Counterbalance Lock can win games by itself and it protects your threats. The main thing I don't like about the "american" versions is that NQGr is also playey like AggoCONTROL, with Bolts instead of StoPs and Fledling Dragons instead of Enforcers, but in this case NQGr IS inferior to NQGw (I mean the Hatfields' build).

I like the build I posted several timey better, because it uses Shackles and Repeal to win damage races and as additional allround-"removals".

Shackles are way better against Survival than Pyroclasm is. Jotun Grunt is also.

NQGr also can't win against Hoofprints of the Stag.

Nightmare

10-31-2007, 12:12 PM

As far as I'm concerned, swords to plowshares is the best reason for the white splash, and that just isn't enough to make white the clearly superior choice over red.But having a moderately improved game vs. random Aggro (which Thresh beats anyway) is enough to make red clearly better? I remain confused.

It's not as though White is a bad color from the SB. I heard Armageddon is a good card, as is Worship (if you still play it), as is Jotun Grunt, and COP: Red, etc. etc. Most of the cards in your board should be colorless, green, or blue anyway, so I'm still not certain I see your point.

It's a toss up for colors, and has been for a long time. Neither is truly "superior."

zulander

10-31-2007, 02:02 PM

I personally like the black splash more than the red one. Black offers up ghastly demise/thoughtseize/bob and other great sideboard cards like duress/jailor/plague etc...

Citrus-God

10-31-2007, 03:46 PM

White also offers very good sideboard choices against a lot of decks, like Worship, Dueling Grounds, Jotun Grunt, Armageddon, Meddling Mage, Gaddock Teeg...What does Red ***** offers? Blood Moon? You have to be kidding me.

Red has Pyroclasm, Price of Progress, Blood Moon, Ancient Grudge, Pillar, REB, FtK, and as for threats, creature steal will forever be better than extra threats

And NQGw is capable of running Counterbalance. Compared with NQGr, Counterbalance just don't fits into the concept of NQGr.

That was just ignorance. The build with Counterbalance was introduced in the form of UGR, just to have a strong overall edge against Goblins and Thresh at the time.

Also, runnign more permanents makes Nimble Mongoose suck. That's why you shouldn't play Countertop in NQGr, because it will also hinder NQGr to play the role as a aggrodeck when it has to be aggressive.

There is no right way to build UGR. I hope you dont mean this all in general.

It's true that burn provides more flexibility in random-metas, but in some random metas randomstuff like Tombstalkers or Grave-Shell Scrab can simply smash your face in. NQGr is also not very good against Ichorid, but NQGw has still got a chance (it just depends in the SB).

I will be honest, in an unknown metagame, I would go for White.

And a Counterbalance Lock can win games by itself and it protects your threats. The main thing I don't like about the "american" versions is that NQGr is also playey like AggoCONTROL, with Bolts instead of StoPs and Fledling Dragons instead of Enforcers, but in this case NQGr IS inferior to NQGw (I mean the Hatfields' build).

First off, it's ignorant to call the "American" versions of Red Gro played like Control. Only people who do that are the Hatfield fans and such. Second, if you look at Gen Con, the Top 8 had 3 UGr Gro decks from canada, which are very aggressive. The US also has many aggressive Red Gro lists running around since it is popularized by Paul Nicoclo.

I wouldn't call the Red versions inferior to the White versions... These were two different lists for two different metagames. You can only say white is better simply because it is more suited for the modern metagame.

Shackles are way better against Survival than Pyroclasm is. Jotun Grunt is also.

Shackles being good against Survival is a no-brainer. But the problem with Grunt is that you present a rather weak threat that only swings. It doesnt affect the game if Survival isnt active. This is what I like about Shackles and Pyroclasm, they affect the game state.

NQGr also can't win against Hoofprints of the Stag.

Needle?

Adan

10-31-2007, 04:58 PM

The "american NQG" thing was just a personal taste. I had some playtesting with the Dryad-Build that T8ed GenCon, I think James king was his name. I took his build, exchanged the Opts with Ponder and then started to play. 1 Dryad on the opening hand together with the appropirate resources can win the game, yes, but sometimes multiple Dryads are a bad topdeck and they are always coming into play as a 1/1 creature.

And the comparison with the NQGr Hatfield-***** with NQGw is won by NQGw, because it has got Mystic Enforcer as a substitute for Fledgling Dragon AND superior removal. It also offers Sideboard cards that can be used for much more purposes than the Sideboardcards of NQGr. Blood Moon, Price of Progress, Ancient Grudge and FtK are very, very, very dependant from the metagame the deck is going to be played. What I also don't understand about those 3 cards:

Blood Moon: Why? You need 2-3 turns of preparation beforce you can drop Blood Moon without disturbing yourself. Blood Moon also requires Basic Lands. And I personally don't like palying non-Island Lands in NQG. The chance of getting that Basic Forest in your opening hand is little, but IF you have it, it's auto-mulligan. And that kind of bad luck can be avoided easily, but back to topic. You have to fetch together the appropirate manabase and drop some threats before playing Blood Moon.

Price of Progress: Nearly the same as Blood Moon, it also needs some preparations AND caution, because Price of Progress can turn around the damage race.

Wrapping up, Winter Orb is the better choice to play when you are going to play against 43Land or Survival (but it also depends on the Build).

Ancient Grudge...I never understood that card. Krosan Grip is better in a big meta where it's difficult to say what is going to be played. And IF you have a kind of paranoia about Stax, Shattering Spree would also be better.

And Flametounge Kavu is not better than Threads of Disloyalty, Control Magic or Vedalken Shackles since he won't kill a Tarmogoyf while dying to small chumpblockers, Pyroclasm, random burn... He pretty much sucks imo.

Pillar is only good against Solidarity I think. Against fast combos like TES and Belcher you have to be prepared for a fuckton of EtW tokens (condition fullfilled by Pyroclasm and EE) and the Belcher itself (condition fulfilled by counterbackup).

Of course NQGr is better in a meta with a lot of Goblins.

But I didn't knew the Counterbalance build was introduced as UGR. But I still think it doesn't fit, but that's only because our "german" build looks different and is played much more aggressive than the "american" builds are because it's built to win damage races against enemy Goyfs, with Vedalken Shackles winning games by themselves against random aggro.
Quirion Dryads can be powerful, but they will always come into play as a shabby 1/1, so they are a bad topdeck in the lategame and they also suck when you have 2 or more of them in your hand.

Obfuscate Freely

10-31-2007, 05:15 PM

The thing is, if you aren't playing Counterbalance somewhere in your 75, your build is suboptimal.

Obviously, it works perfectly fine in UGr builds.

ReAnimated

10-31-2007, 06:28 PM

Sorry about the earlier post it was unfinished due to the fact class was over.

So back to what i was saying

W also offers Teeg ( I don't know if this was brought up earlier but is still an option)

On another note Black has some things to offer as well

Dark Confidant even MORE card advantage in a deck full of can trips and deck manipulation

More removal such as Diabolic Edict , Ghastly Demise , Snuff Out and other things

Thoughtsieze I don't know if anyone tested this but I can see that this could help in some situations

Other SB options you can run Leyline , even though you already have crypt , Plague ( if your meta still has those pesky goblins and what not) and other things.

Adan

10-31-2007, 06:29 PM

The thing is, if you aren't playing Counterbalance somewhere in your 75, your build is suboptimal.

Obviously, it works perfectly fine in UGr builds.

Only in your's which you had played during the GenCon prelims. But I prefer the NQGw instead of your NQGr because it has got the superior removal and Mystic Enforcer as a equivalent beatstick. And better sideboardoptions obv.

Counterbalance does NOT fit into the "tempo"-builds like Dryad-***** or the one I play with BTS, Repeal and Shackles.

You also didn't maindeck Counterbalance, but there was/is absolutley no reason why you should not maindeck it, especially when you are playing the NQGr build, because Counterbalance protects your Critters and takes over the role of Meddling Mage.

But now, if you say "NQG without CB is suboptimal", would you agree with me that NQGw is superior overall? If you compare them directly, the builds are exactly the same except that NQGw has got StoP and Enforcer instead of Lightning Bolt and Fledgling Dragon.
Additionally, white provides more and better SB-Options for all purposes, while red has only got Pyroclasms which are worth to mention in my opinion.

That the Counterbalance Engine was first introduced in a UGR build isn't really an argument why counterbalanced UGR is better than counterbalanced UGW.

Tao

10-31-2007, 06:52 PM

The thing is, if you aren't playing Counterbalance somewhere in your 75, your build is suboptimal.

I am surprised to hear such an obviously wrong statement from you. Such a generalization is never correct. But I don't talk about Counterbalance, it is fine in the main, in the side or not in the 75 at all.

I don't say that W is better than R but if you run R then you should run more burn. With only 4 Bolts as burn, W is better. Close to strictly.

So I also dislike AntiAmerican's last list for the same reasons that Adan pointed out. Just replace Bolt with Swords and Dragon with Enforcer in AA's list and you get a nearly strictly better maindeck.

Bolt vs. Sword:

- Reach:
You can't call 4 Bolts in your deck reach. It takes at least Bolt + Fire/Ice to be able to realistically burn out the opponent.

- "Ram goyf into Goyf, than Bolt it":
That only works if your opponent has no Swords. If he Swords your Goyf, then you have a Bolt in hand that cannot trade 1 - 1.

- Against Enforcer/Dragon/Mishra's Factory Swords are 1000x better

- R offers better SB options:
not true: Geddon, Jotun Grunt, Gaddock Teeg and Meddling Mage are all very strong.

- Dragon kills in 2, Enforcer in 3:
Dragon requires RR and that makes him easier disruptable by Wasteland. Furthermore, for a 2-turn-kill you need at least RRR every turn and even then the kill is not sure.

So if you play with only one Instant-Removal, play the white version.

Obfuscate Freely

10-31-2007, 07:16 PM

I will stand behind that statement. Eschewing Counterbalance from any Threshold variant is unacceptable.

As far as comparing the splash colors, I think you are all simply undervaluing Pyroclasm. If there are enough Goblins (as there were only a few months ago), Pyroclasm out of the board can definitely make up for the difference between Bolt and Swords.

Right now, I don't recommend the red build, because Goblins is on the decline and the mirror is on the rise.

Adan

10-31-2007, 07:31 PM

I will stand behind that statement. Eschewing Counterbalance from any Threshold variant is unnacceptable.

As far as comparing the splash colors, I think you are all simply undervaluing Pyroclasm. If there are enough Goblins (as there were only a few months ago), Pyroclasm out of the board can definitely make up for the difference between Bolt and Swords.

Right now, I don't recommend the red build, because Goblins is on the decline and the mirror is on the rise.

If you are afraid of Goblins you can also play Tivadar's Crusade, Dueling Grounds or Worship in the SB of NQGw.
By the way the Green Splash gets more and more popular, and even Goblins are starting to run Tarmogoyf. And I'm not kidding, it happened to me on the last Bazaar League. I sat there with my BEBs and Pyroclasms and could only watch how Tarmogoyf fucked me up. So Pyroclasm also loses value.

Even though "Goyf in Vial-Goblins" sound completley stupid, it often just win games because this plan evades Pyroclasms, BEB, Plagues, Crusades, Burn and all the hate which is being used usually.

So with this point, SB Pyroclasm and MD Bolt can't reach MD Swords to Plowshares.

But concering your statement, why didn't you just maindecked Counterbalance instead of Counterspell? I bet you boarded it in against every Matchup except Goblins, didn't you?

Citrus-God

10-31-2007, 07:32 PM

Only in your's which you had played during the GenCon prelims. But I prefer the NQGw instead of your NQGr because it has got the superior removal and Mystic Enforcer as a equivalent beatstick. And better sideboardoptions obv.

I wouldn't say White has the better Sideboard. It just seems that nowadays, all the Sideboards consist of the same things; Shackles, 4th Counterbalance. There will only be around 2-3 White cards that would make a difference in the SB.

Counterbalance does NOT fit into the "tempo"-builds like Dryad-***** or the one I play with BTS, Repeal and Shackles.That's a no-brainer. They have less land drops than we do...

You also didn't maindeck Counterbalance, but there was/is absolutley no reason why you should not maindeck it, especially when you are playing the NQGr build, because Counterbalance protects your Critters and takes over the role of Meddling Mage.
See Goblins much?

But now, if you say "NQG without CB is suboptimal", would you agree with me that NQGw is superior overall? If you compare them directly, the builds are exactly the same except that NQGw has got StoP and Enforcer instead of Lightning Bolt and Fledgling Dragon.Yes, but what difference does it make if you're the first one to assemble the Counter/Top combo?

Additionally, white provides more and better SB-Options for all purposes, while red has only got Pyroclasms which are worth to mention in my opinion.If they made a White Pyroclasm that isnt Tivadar's Crusade, I'd join the bandwagon.

That the Counterbalance Engine was first introduced in a UGR build isn't really an argument why counterbalanced UGR is better than counterbalanced UGW.No, it was to say the UGR builds still have a very strong chance against the mirror because of the Counterbalance Engine. It was the reason why the Hatfields ran Red again, and with Pyroclasms, it made it a better overall deck without any one-sided bad match-ups. Let's just say it was just to stay even with Goblins.

I don't say that W is better than R but if you run R then you should run more burn. With only 4 Bolts as burn, W is better. Close to strictly.

We limited the amount of Burn because we wanted a better deck in general, and so we don't draw dead against the mirror, combo, and control.

But if I were to run White with 8 removal cards, why dont I run a set of Condemns as well?

So I also dislike AntiAmerican's last list for the same reasons that Adan pointed out. Just replace Bolt with Swords and Dragon with Enforcer in AA's list and you get a nearly strictly better maindeck.Maindeck? What made Threshold very strong was because the cantrip engine was very compatible and flexible with the Sideboard. Sometimes, you're going to have to lose Game 1 for a strong 50/50 chance in the next two games. In fact, even when I ran UGW, most of the games I won were actually 2-1ed. This was thanks to the Sideboard.

Bolt vs. Sword:

- Reach:
You can't call 4 Bolts in your deck reach. It takes at least Bolt + Fire/Ice to be able to realistically burn out the opponent.The point of the more Controllish versions wasnt to Burn the opponent out. This may apply to the more Tempo versions.

- "Ram goyf into Goyf, than Bolt it":
That only works if your opponent has no Swords. If he Swords your Goyf, then you have a Bolt in hand that cannot trade 1 - 1.This is the reason why the Hatfields didnt change to White during the Legacy Prelims at Gen Con...

- Against Enforcer/Dragon/Mishra's Factory Swords are 1000x betterThis is true...

- R offers better SB options:
not true: Geddon, Jotun Grunt, Gaddock Teeg and Meddling Mage are all very strong.Meddling Mage, Gaddock Teeg... IMO, they're a crutch. Even the Hatfields removed them from the Sideboards in favor of better Anti-Combo cards like Stifle, and Counterbalance.

Counterbalance is the reason why you dont need those cards anymore.

- Dragon kills in 2, Enforcer in 3:
Dragon requires RR and that makes him easier disruptable by Wasteland. Furthermore, for a 2-turn-kill you need at least RRR every turn and even then the kill is not sure.Honestly, do people even throw Wastelands at Volcanic Islands? They're always trying to keep you off Green. Mise well take advantage of this.

So if you play with only one Instant-Removal, play the white version.This isnt absolutely true. Red versions are still viable with only 4 Lightning Bolts. I'm still doing well in testing against the mirror. Just go ask my teammate Kyachi who still runs UGw. We played a 12 pre-board game set, and I won 6 of them pre-board.

If you are afraid of Goblins you can also play Tivadar's Crusade, Dueling Grounds or Worship in the SB of NQGw.

Tivadar's Crusade forces you into making mistakes, which make Wastelands and Rishadan Ports more likely to tap down Green sources.

Worship and Dueling Grounds might work... but then you need Enforcers.

By the way the Green Splash gets more and more popular, and even Goblins are starting to run Tarmogoyf. And I'm not kidding, it happened to me on the last Bazaar League. I sat there with my BEBs and Pyroclasms and could only watch how Tarmogoyf fucked me up. So Pyroclasm also loses value.It took me some practice against Green Goblins to actually use Bolt at right timings though.

Even though "Goyf in Vial-Goblins" sound completley stupid, it often just win games because this plan evades Pyroclasms, BEB, Plagues, Crusades, Burn and all the hate which is being used usually.Your mistake was not answering the Vials in the first place.

So with this point, SB Pyroclasm and MD Bolt can't reach MD Swords to Plowshares.

But concering your statement, why didn't you just maindecked Counterbalance instead of Counterspell? I bet you boarded it in against every Matchup except Goblins, didn't you?[/quote]

If you are afraid of Goblins you can also play Tivadar's Crusade, Dueling Grounds or Worship in the SB of NQGw.

Tivadar's Crusade sucks... you need to fetch out 2x Tundras to make it work, which forces you into mistakes of increasing the value of Ports and Wastes on Green sources.

I'm suprised you havent mentioned Chills as a replacement for Clasms yet...

By the way the Green Splash gets more and more popular, and even Goblins are starting to run Tarmogoyf. And I'm not kidding, it happened to me on the last Bazaar League. I sat there with my BEBs and Pyroclasms and could only watch how Tarmogoyf fucked me up. So Pyroclasm also loses value.This takes practice... esp. with Lightning Bolts. Just dont let Vial resolve.

Even though "Goyf in Vial-Goblins" sound completley stupid, it often just win games because this plan evades Pyroclasms, BEB, Plagues, Crusades, Burn and all the hate which is being used usually.Or you can just answer Vials?

So with this point, SB Pyroclasm and MD Bolt can't reach MD Swords to Plowshares.Not really. Pyroclasm is better reach against a board full of Goblins. Besides, you can always Clasm on Main phase 2.

But concering your statement, why didn't you just maindecked Counterbalance instead of Counterspell? I bet you boarded it in against every Matchup except Goblins, didn't you?You be suprised, Alix Hatfield Top 8ed with a White build at the last Kadi's DLD with Maindecked Counterbalance.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [RAV] Island (1)
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [b] Tundra
4 [u] Tropical Island
1 [IA] Forest (2)

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [TSB] Mystic Enforcer

// Spells
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [R] Counterspell
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [OD] Predict
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 2 [u] Control Magic
SB: 2 [PLC] Seal of Primordium
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [OV] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

Zach Tartell

10-31-2007, 08:02 PM

kabal

10-31-2007, 09:29 PM

Eschewing Counterbalance from any Threshold variant is unnacceptable.

Not necessarily... Not everyone's Meta consists of 12 - 15 Threshold/NGQ type builds. Not to say that CB is only good against Threshold type decks, but there are many decks where it is less than stellar.

Right now, I don't recommend the red build, because Goblins is on the decline and the mirror is on the rise.

You can't make such a blanket statement, again not all metas look the same. Mine for instance consistently has 2 Goblin builds in all most every event (12 - 15 is the typical turn out).

Obfuscate Freely

10-31-2007, 10:10 PM

Not necessarily... Not everyone's Meta consists of 12 - 15 Threshold/NGQ type builds. Not to say that CB is only good against Threshold type decks, but there are many decks where it is less than stellar.
Counterbalance is absolutely stellar against every deck in the DTB forum right now. When the DTB forum gets updated tonight, I won't be able to say that (Ichorid and Goblins will be moving in), but the card will still be fantastic against the vast majority of relevant decks in the format.

Counterbalance should at least be in your sideboard, barring an extremely warped metagame. But then, if all you see is Goblins and Ichorid, don't play Thresh, anyway.

You can't make such a blanket statement, again not all metas look the same. Mine for instance consistently has 2 Goblin builds in all most every event (12 - 15 is the typical turn out).

If there are enough Goblins (as there were only a few months ago), Pyroclasm out of the board can definitely make up for the difference between Bolt and Swords.

Citrus-God

10-31-2007, 10:52 PM

Adan

11-01-2007, 07:34 AM

@ Anit-American: That was an excellent post.

I like your use of counterspell. I almost like it over counterbalance, mained, on account of it is a hard counter. None of this "maybe" or "if I get top out" crap. I liked to run three, back when I played the Herbig Project.

It wasn't excellent to me since I begin to believe that he never learned to write a good argumentation in school, and I'm willing to get a warning for this comment, but AA, you should look at the cards more carefully before judging them.

UWb Cunning Landstill is the most popular Landstill variant played in Germany at the moment. And Gaddok Teeg is not meant against combo, it's against Landstill to shut down Wrath of God, Engineered Explosives and hardcast Decree of Justice. So the Landstill player has only got his remaining Swords to plowshared as removal. And Counterbalance defends Gaddock Teeg and Gaddock Teeg defends Counterbalance by prohibiting EE.
And I also still don't see a GOOD reason to play a "controlish" UGR version with worse removal than UGW has to offer? I would play Fire//Ice in addition to Bolts when playing UGR - always.

The Sideboard Options of NQGr are not better than NQGw's.
You also said that Dueling grounda may work, but then you need Enforcers.
Isn't that also true for your Blood Moon then? Don't you need the Dragon after dropping Blood Moon? I think so.

Dueling Grounds are also nuts against Ichorid, against which UGR can't do anything except running 4 T-Crypt SBed. White has also got Jotun Grunt.

43Land can also be won with Geddons. You also need less preparation when playing Geddon instead of Blood Moon or Price of Progress.
Geddon is also more useful against other decks like Lands, Landstill, Survival (dependant on the build), Rifter and other Controldecks.

Worship and Jotun Grunt also wins the mirrormatch together with StoP. Lightning Bolt doesn't.

The only reason to play UGR over UGW is when you want to play it tempo-like with Dryads/BTS/Wastelands, but the controlish UGR build is worse than the UGW.

There are also less Goblins around in the last time because there is just to much hate around.

Citrus-God

11-01-2007, 10:15 AM

It wasn't excellent to me since I begin to believe that he never learned to write a good argumentation in school, and I'm willing to get a warning for this comment, but AA, you should look at the cards more carefully before judging them.

In the US, we hardly move up because of our knowledge in school, because a majority of the time, we all learn the same thing, unlike you guys who go to college at age 12.

I played White more than Red, to tell the truth actually. In fact, if you saw most of my tournament reports, I did in fact pilot the White build to top finishes. I hope that shows my ignorance in all my posts.

UWb Cunning Landstill is the most popular Landstill variant played in Germany at the moment. And Gaddok Teeg is not meant against combo, it's against Landstill to shut down Wrath of God, Engineered Explosives and hardcast Decree of Justice. So the Landstill player has only got his remaining Swords to plowshared as removal. And Counterbalance defends Gaddock Teeg and Gaddock Teeg defends Counterbalance by prohibiting EE.
And I also still don't see a GOOD reason to play a "controlish" UGR version with worse removal than UGW has to offer? I would play Fire//Ice in addition to Bolts when playing UGR - always.

When you can beat Landstill already through practice, using only Needles and Counterbalances. This is a slow game. You don't need a certain balance of cards against this match-up, unlike Goblins.

The Sideboard Options of NQGr are not better than NQGw's.
You also said that Dueling grounda may work, but then you need Enforcers.
Isn't that also true for your Blood Moon then? Don't you need the Dragon after dropping Blood Moon? I think so.

I run a Basic Forest, and 2 Basic Islands. So I dont really need Dragon all the time.

Dueling Grounds are also nuts against Ichorid, against which UGR can't do anything except running 4 T-Crypt SBed. White has also got Jotun Grunt.

They can blow it up using Ray of Revelation while comboing. Against Crypts, they're going to have to mull into an answer.

43Land can also be won with Geddons. You also need less preparation when playing Geddon instead of Blood Moon or Price of Progress.
Geddon is also more useful against other decks like Lands, Landstill, Survival (dependant on the build), Rifter and other Controldecks.

You should already beat Rifter. Landstill can won through practice. Survival just didnt seem that hard to beat after Counterbalance is introduced.

Worship and Jotun Grunt also wins the mirrormatch together with StoP. Lightning Bolt doesn't.

No. What wins you the mirror match is Counterbalance. Those are just threats being sided in incase you cant set Counterbalance up.

The only reason to play UGR over UGW is when you want to play it tempo-like with Dryads/BTS/Wastelands, but the controlish UGR build is worse than the UGW.

I was never a believer in the Tempo versions of the deck, nor do I see it as a way to go.

There are also less Goblins around in the last time because there is just to much hate around.

I doubt this, as long as they have Tarmogoyf, they can win. I know a friend of mine who plays at my local tournament, who always plays Goblins. He crashed into 5 Threshold decks out of his 6 rounds, and he proceeded to crush 4 of the 5 Threshold decks and made Top 8 with a record of 5-1. So Goblins still has a chance.

Adan

11-01-2007, 10:39 AM

I doubt this, as long as they have Tarmogoyf, they can win. I know a friend of mine who plays at my local tournament, who always plays Goblins. He crashed into 5 Threshold decks out of his 6 rounds, and he proceeded to crush 4 of the 5 Threshold decks and made Top 8 with a record of 5-1. So Goblins still has a chance.

Gotcha right there!

So Pyroclasm is indeed not that good like you said and Goyf can only be handled with double-burn -> card disadvatange.

I never read a tournament report of you and I also don't know a source where I can watch american Top8 Lists, but analyzing your last posts your experience with NQG loses credibility.

aTn

11-01-2007, 11:40 AM

Adan, if you want Top8 lists from Gencon, TMLO, etc., here's a link:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=165891&postcount=681

Adan

11-01-2007, 11:56 AM

Adan, if you want Top8 lists from Gencon, TMLO, etc., here's a link:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=165891&postcount=681

That's not what I meant, I know the UGR Builds, I know them all. I meant a source like www.morphling.de where you can look at different Top8 from different locations.

aTn

11-01-2007, 12:17 PM

I don't know of such a source, good luck with that.

Aside

Adan said: I begin to believe that he never learned to write a good argumentation in school

Adan said: I never read a tournament report of you (Antiamerican) and I also don't know a source where I can watch american Top8 Lists, but analyzing your last posts your experience with NQG loses credibility.

Mmm... Would you like to elaborate on that or are you satisfied with the empty set as being your main argument ?

I don't want to be rude, but I don't like player bashing/disrespect and that my friend borders on both. If you don't agree with him, then write the reasons for not agreeing, just don't go into cheap shots like that. Then again, maybe I understood everything wrong in your sentence and therefore I must be shot...

Adan

11-01-2007, 01:17 PM

The thing is that my arguments and reasons have been better, and frankly, I got the feeling I'm being ignored just because I'm a German that don't has got any clue of the american Meta.

It began in the discussion about "Serendib Efreet vs. BTS" and now it continues here. But also a lot of people already agreed with me in several points, like in the discussion about "controlish UGW vs. controlish UGR" or "UGW Sb vs. UGR Sb". And the last argument was contradictory to the "Pyroclasm in UGR SB ownz all the UGW SB-Stuff"-Statement.

Then I mentioned that Goblins are playing Tarmogoyf and that Pyroclasms are losing value because of that. He said I'm wrong, but 1 post later he said that his friend annihilated 5 Threshold-Decks with Gobs feat. Tarmogoyf.

I never doubted that Anti-American is a skillfull treshplayer, but his last statements were just WRONG and that's why I'm kinda surprised. So am I about what ObFreeley said, since I know he definitley has got a clue about Threshold.

But the UGR Build with Burning Tree Shaman is very succesfull here in Germany, even without Counterbalance in it's 75. The "german" UGR Build is also good in the mirrormatch because it run's a lot of CC3 cards. BTS is also very effective against Countertop Engine and it makes a lot more pressure so that it will be useless if you assemble the Countertop Engine. He will also steal your Goyfs with Shackles (out of reach from Counterbalance).

Citrus-God

11-01-2007, 03:37 PM

Then I mentioned that Goblins are playing Tarmogoyf and that Pyroclasms are losing value because of that. He said I'm wrong, but 1 post later he said that his friend annihilated 5 Threshold-Decks with Gobs feat. Tarmogoyf.

I should've been more specific. The Threshold lists he beat were all playing White.

As for Red's solution to dealing with it, it's actually going to remain the same. You're going to have to trade creatures for theirs. When playing Goblins, you must always be willing to trade.

I never doubted that Anti-American is a skillfull treshplayer, but his last statements were just WRONG and that's why I'm kinda surprised. So am I about what ObFreeley said, since I know he definitley has got a clue about Threshold.

You never had any respect for me to begin with since this:

It wasn't excellent to me since I begin to believe that he never learned to write a good argumentation in school, and I'm willing to get a warning for this comment, but AA, you should look at the cards more carefully before judging them.

I never read a tournament report of you and I also don't know a source where I can watch american Top8 Lists, but analyzing your last posts your experience with NQG loses credibility.

You have to be more specific with what you have a problem with. If you want me to elaborate, you have to tell me what view and reasoning what you want out of me.

kabal

11-01-2007, 04:03 PM

UGR Build with Burning Tree Shaman is very succesfull here in Germany

Do you mind sharing your latest NQGr Shaman? thx

Adan

11-01-2007, 05:39 PM

Do you mind sharing your latest NQGr Shaman? thx

// Lands
2 [RAV] Island (1)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
3 [GP] Burning-Tree Shaman
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
2 [GP] Repeal
4 [OD] Predict
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [10E] Pyroclasm

It has got more of the tempo-style, but with the ability to damage race in the mirrormatch very efficiently.
Repeal is one of the smoothest card in the deck and Vedalken Shackles often win games by itself.
Burning Tree Shaman looks anti-synergistic with the Fetchlands and Vedalken Shackles, but that is irrelevant of you play it right.
Burnign Tree Shaman was played by a spanish guy first and he turned out to be a solid undercosted beater, doing a lot of extra damage against Goblins, Rifter and Landstill. Nowadays he's still good against Landstill, Goblins, Cephalid Breakfast, 43Land, Counterbalance Engines...Mirrormatch...

@Anti-American: You don't have to elaborate anything, neither the comparison of Sideboard Cards of UGR vs. UGW, nor the reason why the controlish UGR should be better than UGW, because you have been wrong and I don't expect that you have changed your mind. I was always talking about the versatility the Sideboard cards of the 2 colors offer, and White definitley offers the more versatile cardchoices against a big unknown field than Red has, because you always mentioned very very meta-specific cards that are only useful against only 1 deck. And Tivadar's Crusade has got exactly the same effect on Goblins like Pyroclasm. They both annihilate every single Goblin, but Tarmogoyf is not harmed. Of course Pyroclasm can also be good against other aggrodecks, but against Goblins there's nearly no difference exept that the Crusade costs 1 more mana.
And you also said that you played UGW much more than UGR, so I really ask myself why you can't follow my thread.

Citrus-God

11-01-2007, 05:54 PM

The thing is that my arguments and reasons have been better, and frankly, I got the feeling I'm being ignored just because I'm a German that don't has got any clue of the american Meta.

And who the hell decides to ignored the Germans? Frankly, we dont. I mean, we play 43 Land in the states, as well as Baseruption, and other oddities you guys made..

So even if you are German, you should still add insight more on your posts.
It just seems blunt that we're going over something with lack of reasoning and a lot of ignorance being involved...

kabal

11-01-2007, 07:01 PM

Burning Tree Shaman looks anti-synergistic with the Fetchlands and Vedalken Shackles, but that is irrelevant of you play it right.

You don't have to prove him to me...

Joking aside, BTS seems like a weird choice too, in a deck with 7 fetches and 2 Shackles. Seems like it's almost always going to be a pretty symmetrical effect.

BTS is a good beat for UGR and the 7 fetches seems rather irrelevant. By the time you get the three lands to cast BTS, you really won't be cracking many more fetches or playing that many more lands. NQG doesn't ever need more than 5 lands and you really only need 5, thats just to hard cast FoW.

BTW, your list looks very similar to mine.

-2 Repeal
-2 Shackles
-1 Fire/Ice

+3 Stifle
+2 Counterspell

I original started playing this build (essential BTS + cantrip base of 4/4/4 w/ predict) once I saw Frederic Timmer list from Iserlohn in July of this year. I was looking for a good replacement for Quirion Dryad which seem to always disappoint me. Granted I knew of BTS before that, just hadn't give it a whirl it to I happened upon that list.

Obfuscate Freely

11-01-2007, 07:22 PM

// Lands
2 [RAV] Island (1)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
3 [GP] Burning-Tree Shaman
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
2 [GP] Repeal
4 [OD] Predict
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [10E] Pyroclasm

I fail to see why this list wouldn't be better with CounterTop in it, somewhere. Once again, Counterbalance is a bomb against almost every deck in the format, including the mirror match.

Is this really going to come down to you preferring Burning Tree Shaman over CounterTop? I would run the two together before cutting Counterbalance.

kabal

11-01-2007, 07:33 PM

Is this really going to come down to you preferring Burning Tree Shaman over CounterTop? I would run the two together before cutting Counterbalance.

Guessing you aren't going to be running SDT? If you aren't going to run it, then CB looks a lot less attractive.

Obfuscate Freely

11-01-2007, 07:47 PM

Top is good enough to be run on its own merits, really. I would always include it.

My point was that Burning Tree Shaman's lack of synergy with Top is outweighed by the strength of the CounterTop package. I really doubt that it would ever be a serious problem, anyway, which is why I also doubt that BTS is an effective answer to opposing Counterbalances.

zulander

11-01-2007, 07:56 PM

which is why I also doubt that BTS is an effective answer to opposing Counterbalances.
You mean top right? BTS only pings your opponent when they play activated abilities, not when triggers occur.

I don't think anyone would argue that BTS doesn't stop counterbalances...

Obfuscate Freely

11-01-2007, 08:25 PM

Counterbalance is the card that must be answered, not Top. I was refuting the implication that Burning Tree Shaman's interaction with Top allows it to invalidate Counterbalance, indirectly.

Top is an important enabler for Counterbalance, but forcing the opponent to take a single point of damage in order to activate it hardly reduces the effectiveness of the combination. Besides that, in the mirror match, Counterbalance can often generate overwhelming card advantage by itself, anyway.

Tao

11-01-2007, 08:34 PM

With a BTS on the board it is very painful to use the Top and stunts like look, fetch, look again become impossible.
_____

I will stand behind that statement. Eschewing Counterbalance from any Threshold variant is unnacceptable.

I am a fan of Countertop myself and I run it, too. But if your intention is to race the opponent and then Burn him out, Counterbalance is the wrong choice. The deck does not become become better or worse with CounterTop, it just becomes different.

Furthemore Tournament results indicate heavily that you are wrong:

http://www.germagic.de/dc/list.php?type=Threshold&format=Legacy

Not evem 50% of the ******** lists run Countertop. (Edit: http://www.germagic.de/dc/list.php?type=Baseruption) it seems some Threshold variants are here, but there is still a big percentage of Threshold decks that Top8 without Counterbalance)

Obfuscate Freely

11-01-2007, 09:46 PM

Of course the deck can perform well without Counterbalance. That doesn't mean it isn't better with Counterbalance in it, thus making it unacceptable not to include.

There are more Counterbalances in that data set than there are Burning Tree Shamans, but I won't use that as an argument for or against anything.

That site is fucking awesome, though.

Adan

11-02-2007, 03:51 AM

That's what I meant, the list I posted up there T8ed at least 4 times here in germany.
The first time was when kimberley was still active. He won a small tournament (14 people) with it, but at that time there were no tarmogoyfs and magma Jet was still played.
Then, some months later, Tim Kahlmeyer won a tournament (21 people) with it, playing Counterspells and Jets.

The list up there is the latest list that's being played in Germany. And I played against Oddball and his UGR on the German Legacy Open with Baseruption. Burning Tree Shaman and Vedalken Shackles were the cards that fucked me up the most, because he made pressure very early and then dropped BTS, which made the things Tao mentioned impossible.

His friend Frederic T8ed with a similar List (instead of Ponder, Oddball played Portent and Frederic played Serum Visions because Lorwyn wasn't out at that time and so on).

Ah, and even the new UGR Build with Wasteland-Stifle or Quirion Dryads don't run Counterbalance. Ah, hell, NQGrw is also played quite much here in Germany, with the old-school Accumulated Knowledges and Isochron Scepter.
(GenCon Top32, Rich Shay, that kind of build).

They all don't play Counterbalance but are still sucessfull.

@kabal:

Actually, the Counterspell-Slot is the Slot that you can change like wou want.
You can play Repeals and the 4th Daze, you can play a Disrupting Shoal and 2 Repeal.You can play 3 Counterspells or Stifle. Whatever.
The 3 Magma Jets were replaced by the 2 vedalken Shackles and the 17th Land and it should remain in that way.

But in the past I also tested Counterbalance in the slot of Counterspell.
Without Top, you are forced to play Magma Jet again and it sucks like hell.

Since that build is supposed to be played more aggressiveley like the Wasteland-Stifle-Build (that thing David Caplan T8ed), but not with the role to slow down the opponent, but damage racing him. And it does it's job well.

Of course there is a list with Counterbalance, but it's nearly the same thing like in our discussion about controlish NQG.

//Lands 16
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
4x Volcanic Island
1x Island

//Creatures 10
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Sea Drake

//Spells 34
4x Fire/Ice
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Predict
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
2x Counterbalance
2x Sensei’s Divining Top
2x Repeal

Sideboard
2x Pithing Needle
2x Pyroclasm
3x Krosan Grip
2x Vedalken Shackles
3x Winter Orb
3x Blue Elemental Blast

That build is not frequently played here in Germany since Sea Drakes are fucking expansive. But he's quite good, I think he was also played in teh past. He receives a "can't be sworded/bolted" through Counterbalance and does damage through Tarmogoyf thanks to his evasion ability.
But the thing is, that this list can't be "tempo" like the list I posted above because of the Counterbalance Engine, since Counterbalance only fullfills a "controlish" role, but Counterbalance itself can't handle threats that already have been played and it also doesn't kill the opponent directly.
So you need to play Repeal to have a out against random Enchantments like Confinement, Blood Moon (you also have SB BEB), Worship and so on.

But I still like the BTS-Build, because it sometimes can ignore opposing Tarmogoyfs, because iceing, repealing or stealing them with Shackles is way more fun. So that "ram Goyf into Goyf" is not necessary anymore. I would just do that in emergencies.
BTS is a additional undercosted beater which makes CB-Engine and opposing Fetchlands suck. It's definitley better than Serendib Efreet because he still does less damage to you than Serendib Efreet would.

Citrus-God

11-02-2007, 09:39 AM

I see so many things wrong with that list. But frankly, it seems that the Americans and the Germans are on a different page on UGR Hatfield, apparently, since like... the arguments started.

Differences from the American list and the German one... actually, it's more like the Hatfield list and this list... Now for the differences...

Maindeck:

Burn Cards; The Hatfields were never fans of more than 4 Maindeck Burn cards. They didnt want to win damage races with dead cards, they wanted efficiency in the form of versatile removal and allow it to play Midgame against certain creature decks.

Fliers: Sea Drakes... I asked Dom from Team NoVA about it a long time ago. He was very into it, and neither were the Hatfields after GP Philly.

But if you asked the for one of the reasons why people play Dragon, many people will say that Dragon is one of the biggest reasons to play UGR. And Sea Drake doesnt trade with Enforcer. At least Dragon can.

Basic Forest: We always had the Basic Forest. It wasnt a land really, but just a way to get around Wasteland and Back to Basics and stuff. I know Mad Zur dislikes the idea of it being a land, because 16 Blue Sources is all you need.

3 SDT, 3-4 Counterbalances: You guys played a 2/2 split. Everybody who ran Maindecked Counterbalances ran a 3/3-4 split from what I recall in the US.

Repeal + Fire // Ice: Don't get me wrong, but most of us who played the Hatfield philosophy before Top was in the deck was this following theory;

1. Chain cantrips to find actual solutions to answer before and after. Repeal and Fire // Ice can be cycled, but you draw into trash. Fire // Ice may be able pitch to FoW and kill low-quality creatures, but it's trash because you dont need that much removal or Burn within the game. You're a control deck, and Counters and such is what allows you to keep a fair game against most decks. This might be why you didnt do as well with UGR Controllish Threshold.

Before Top was ran, it chained from cantrip to cantrip to find it's answers. That was why it ran 16 cantrips.

2. Card Quality first, always. It's Fire // Ice or Lightning Bolt. They both suck in the mirror, so just pick a set and move on. You can double Burn all you want, but part of the reason why it wasnt that great for you guys in the first place was because instead of played Counterbalance and winning, you're being cute tapping down Goyfs and Repealing them. Counterbalance and Top are here because their quality is strong enough to win you the game. So just cut them in favor of better cards like, more Counterbalances, another Top, and more Shackles. Even if you dislike Drake, cut them for Shackles.

And also, flier needs to be changed and Sideboard needs work.

One of the reasons why I stopped playing UGW was because of how much Hydroblast sucks... Pyroclasm was always the card I liked against Goblins because you can stabilize off one and chain into the next via Top/Cantrips.

I wouldnt mind the fact you keep that build, but you should really give Pyroclasm more credit. Even though Kimberly was a major fan of BEB in Ur Landstill, he was able to pull it off because he has more draw than of a clock, whereas, we have more of a clock than a draw. Be chain into them better, and still be able to maintain threats on the board and apply pressure which buys us time for the next one. While playing Landstill, you're always under pressure for playing the control deck.

Adan

11-02-2007, 12:46 PM

kabal

11-02-2007, 01:32 PM

The Hatfields, the Hatfields, the Hatfields. C'mon, like those brothers decide what Thresh is going to be played there in the US. I know they have a clue about Threshold, but there's still something I don't agree with.

Amen...You would think that they invented the archetype.

I never played the UGR Hatfield version because exchanging red for white makes the maindeck strictly better. SO if I want to play with Counterbalance and a fat beater, I will definitley play UGW, not UGR.

QFT.

Obfuscate Freely

11-02-2007, 02:21 PM

If you guys are having trouble winning mirror matches after resolving CounterTop, you are doing something wrong.

I really can't stress this enough. Since you both have access to the same threats, matching (and surpassing) your opponent's board is pretty easy when you have nearly complete control over what spells will resolve for the rest of the game.

T is for TOOL

11-02-2007, 02:56 PM

The Hatfields, the Hatfields, the Hatfields. C'mon, like those brothers decide what Thresh is going to be played there in the US. I know they have a clue about Threshold, but there's still something I don't agree with.

I also never said that the list up there is good. I sucks. But I just wanted to show you how a UGR with Counterbalance WOULD look like. UGW with Counterbalance has got much more of an allrounder, that's what I'm saying. The Hatfields (among others), have developed and innovated Legacy Threshold for years, before it was even a blip on the Legacy radar. They've also been exteremely successful in piloting the deck to many T8 finishes since then in the few big American Legacy tournaments that have been held. Many posters on the Source are more familiar with their name and their association to the deck, so it shouldn't seem unreasonable that those posters give more weight to the Hatfield's arguments. I'm sure that you know some excellent German Threshold players and that you likewise hold their opinion in higher regard. This is not a conscious act of ill-will towards German deck design. It's simply an unfortunate consequence of having two Legacy metagames separated by over 3,000 miles of ocean.

I never played the UGR Hatfield version because exchanging red for white makes the maindeck strictly better. SO if I want to play with Counterbalance and a fat beater, I will definitley play UGW, not UGR. Depending on the metagame, a heavy Goblin metagame for example, the UWG maindeck advantage over URG is nullified. Both colors function nearly identically against Goblins pre-board because both Lightning Bolts and Swords to Plowshares answer any relevant goblin and both Dragon and Enforcer serve a similar function as evasive finishers. The advantage of the red splash was that it had access to Pyroclasm, among other cards, which gave it a better post-SB goblin matchup. If two decks have identical functioning MDs in a metagame, then it is logical to choose the deck with stronger SB options.

The first thing is, that you have to be the first who does some pressure in the mirrormatch. The one who does more pressure wins the game. Counterbalance does not make any pressure. I disagree with this assertion. It would be more correct to say that in the mirror, the winner is determined by whoever resolves an unanswered threat. Counterbalance is an exteremely dangerous threat in the mirror because it effectively nullifies your opponent's strategy of resolving spells.

And the actual gamewinning cards will still come through it.
Burning Tree Shaman, Mystic Enforcer, Fledgling Dragon, Vedalken Shackles, Engineered Explosives, Force of Will, even Repeal won't be harmed by Counterbalance.
I'd like to keep from devolving into petty arguments about hypothetical worst case hand scenarios, remember that you can always simply cast a counterspell or removal and use the Counterbalance to protect your counter.

If I drop a 1st Turn Mongoose followed by a 2nd Turn Tarmogoyf, what does the Counterbalance Engine do against it? Nothing. The Engine as a whole thing also needs 3 turns to work fine. You have it on teh table after 2 Turns. In these 2 turns, you can still play the wrong role. You got the Engine, but no critters.

That would be the scenario when you are affixed to get the stupid engine together, I did the same fault.
This is the reason why Counterbalance WON'T win the mirrormatch so easily.

Threshold scenarios are rarely useful to illustrate points because there are far too many unknowns that need to be taken into account in any given situation. If you set-up a scenario correctly, you can make any card be awful. More importantly, even if the scenario correctly demonstrates the weakness of the Counterbalance play, that doesn't invalidate the Counterbalance strategy. In your example, a simple removal spell on the Goyf followed up with a Counterbalance is extremely strong. Likewise countering the Goyf and then playing Counterbalance is strong. A single Goyf on your side would stall both the opposing Goose and Goyf as well. Depending on the strength of both you and your opponent's hands, simply dropping Counterbalance turn 2 and digging for answers can win the game as well. If you are holding a hand without any creatures, countermagic, or removal, it might be better to simply mulligan.

Timing is such a fucking important criteria to which no one pays attention. That's why some people still lose to Goblins or have different Matchup Analysis. The players who know what they must to will win, because they know what role they have to play against which deck.
Agreed. Many players lose because of play mistakes and bad decisions caused by a misassignment of the role of their deck.

aTn

11-02-2007, 03:22 PM

T is for TOOL said: Depending on the metagame, a heavy Goblin metagame for example, the UWG maindeck advantage over URG is nullified. Both colors function nearly identically against Goblins pre-board because both Lightning Bolts and Swords to Plowshares answer any relevant goblin and both Dragon and Enforcer serve a similar function as evasive finishers. The advantage of the red splash was that it had access to Pyroclasm, among other cards, which gave it a better post-SB goblin matchup. If two decks have identical functioning MDs in a metagame, then it is logical to choose the deck with stronger SB options.

I totally agree. Also, pre-board vs. Goblins, I prefer UGR because of the fact that Bolt and Fire/Ice can remove opposing Goblins without slowing down your clock (opponent gaining life from StoP). They also (obviously) give an alternate way to kill when Dragon/Enforcer isn't on the board and Goblins stall the ground (for example when SGC resolves).

Adan, I agree that Tivadar's Crusade has the same net effect as Pyroclasm, but it costs 1WW and that's often annoying when facing Ports and Wastelands.

I agree that Pyroclasm (alone) doesn't get rid of opposing Goyfs. From testing UGR-Threshold against "RG-Goblins splash Goyfs", it never was a problem. It destroys all their creatures except the Goyfs. You have 3-4 Fire/Ice and 4 Bolts to deal with their Goyfs (which is not that hard when you have guys on your side, which tends to happen).

raharu

11-02-2007, 04:08 PM

[QUOTE=T is for TOOL;175630]

The advantage of the red splash was that it had access to Pyroclasm, among other cards, which gave it a better post-SB goblin matchup.

What? I see alot of MD Pyroclasm from the thresh I play against. If no-one else runs it MD, I think it warants serious consideration because it wipes away the field for so many decks in the meta and allows you to make better use of your burn ('Clasm > Bolt to get rid of a board full of Fish and thier big wincon since they droped Mother of Runes from the deck, not to mention that 'Clasm + Bolt generally kills 'Goyf).

aTn

11-02-2007, 04:29 PM

raharu, MD Pyroclasm has been suggested and played before. As you said, it's a metagame call. Maybe it's relevant where you play, but it is not that hot where I play, where the mirror is frequent (and from the decklists in this thread, you can see it wasn't very often that people needed to MD Pyroclasm). I'd see it as a good call in a Goblins/Small-Sized aggro infested meta.

FredMaster

11-02-2007, 04:37 PM

Also consider the effect on Combo's Goblin Tokens. I wouldn't even mention it as a sideboard card tho. :rolleyes:

kicks_422

11-02-2007, 08:02 PM

Hell, it's a personal preference to what you run in the MD. There's no optimal build for this deck since it's so versatile, and you can adapt it to what you expect to see. Running CB-Top or not depends on the meta and personal playstyle, not "which is better".

Frankly, the deck concept's so powerful that I'm using a Legacy-legal version in Vintage - and OWNING with it.

donkyranger

11-03-2007, 12:58 AM

I have had been wondering this for quite a while now and I dont really want to read 43 plus pages to find it, so what is the deal with dryad in this deck? I personally like it but just cause I like the card Pigmy Hippo doesn't mean it should be played.

kicks_422

11-03-2007, 07:48 AM

It's a personal preference, really. I've seen some run a 4 Mongeese, 4 Goyf, 4 Dryad creature base with 8 burn spells into a much more aggro route. It's a fine 3rd option behind Mongeese and Goyf.

Personally, I like Trygon Predator. It helps so much against lots of randomness.

etrigan

11-03-2007, 08:58 AM

Dryad make you play a more aggressive game. To get full effect, you have to drop it early, and then play a bunch of spells in the upcoming turns. Sometimes, you just want to slowroll, and drop your guy when it's time to win.

Personally, I like Werebear as my third green man.

Happy Gilmore

11-03-2007, 09:23 AM

My personal oppinion is that Dryad requires too much of an investment. Something about being forced to cast spells to make her bigger does not sit right with me. I like that Bear/Goose/Tarmogoyf come into play big.

kabal

11-03-2007, 10:04 AM

I like that Bear/Goose/Tarmogoyf come into play big.

That is the creature configuration I found works the best. I'm playing 4/4/3 with bear in the last slot. What does your cantrip base look like? I'm playing BS/Ponder/MN all set all 4. What the hell, here is what my current build looks like.

// Lands
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Werebear

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Daze
3 Fire/Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mental Note
3 Stifle
4 Ponder

aTn

11-03-2007, 12:14 PM

I agree with Happy, Dryad needs to be fed and it's a pain.

I've been testing Goyf/Goose and Goyf/Goose/Bear and I like these two creature configurations equally (I usually add the Bear when aggro is rampant).

As for the cantrips, I really like Brainstorm/Ponder/Predict with either creature configuration.

Citrus-God

11-03-2007, 09:17 PM

Goblins

This matchup is very close, and whether or not it is favorable may depend on your build. Your best tools for stabilizing are huge creatures, so staving off death until you can get some of those in play is your first concern. Lackey shouldn’t be difficult to stop, but Vial can be problematic. Needle helps tremendously here, and thankfully Vial gives you a little bit of time to find the answer before it can drop any must-counters. Once you do establish a stalemate between their guys and yours, you’ll eventually need to be able to start swinging with enough fat on defense to prevent any alpha strikes, and you’ll be at a noticably reduced life total. This means you need to find at least two creatures and that you need have answers to an immediate threat the opponent could play. Taking care of Warchief is a priority for your burn, but you’ll want to save counters for Ringleader and Siege-Gang if you can (this is where Vial can really kill you). If all goes well (which isn’t easy because you need the correct balance of creatures, removal, and counters), they should be unable to attack without losing guys while you are free to swing in with something that they can’t kill without throwing away multiple creatures. Gempalm can be problematic in this situation; extra Needles can name it and you’ll want Mongooses on defense to be safe.

Sideboarding is difficult in this match; I favor taking out Dragon because it takes a while to come online. Furthermore, because you’ll be bringing in Pyroclasm, evasion is less necessary. Taking out draw is an option, but dangerous. Being able to chain cantrips is even more important in game two, not only because you have Pyroclasm to dig for, but also because you’re likely to see Crypt and you want to be able to recover quickly.

Your basic strategy is the same, but Pyroclasm can either stabilize by itself or turn a creature stalemate into a dominant board position. The opponent may try to cut you off of red mana, but since you only need one, it should not be difficult to play around. If you’re worried, you can often hold a Volcanic Island in hand until you need it. Once again, make sure to keep the draw engine running; dig for those Pyroclasms and don’t lose to Crypt.

Mad Zur wrote this. This is what I believe in most when playing Threshold of any kinda Pre-Board. No matter how great the hands you keep and the decisions you make, you're more prone to make more mistakes than the Goblin player, simply because Goblins provides less options for the player whereas the Threshold player has much more options to consider.

"Should I dig for Pyroclasm?"
"Should I counter Matron? If I let it resolve, will be go for board dominance in the form of Gempalm or SCG, card advantage (Ringleader)?, or is he going to race (Piledriver, Fanatic)?

Ragnarok

11-04-2007, 09:57 AM

Maybe it is because I haven't read all of the post is in this topic. But I haven't seen anyone complaining about the biggest problem threshold has in my opinion. The lack of creatures with evasion. I have tested, BTS and Dryad (Besides 4 Goyf and 4 Goose ofcourse). I have never tested Werebear actually but I don't think it is a very great addition. They both have proven to function well, but it wasn't good enough. Dryad could become a big creature if played early game, but drawing it late game was a pain in the ass. BTS was maybe even worse, it's a pretty nice card though, his toughness was 1 bigger then a thresht mongoose and it's ability wasn't as good as I thought it would be. In my opinion Threshold needs a game winner mainboard besides Goyf. So after discussing this with some teammates of mine I decide to test Fledgling Dragon (besides, the white splash plays mystic enforcer), it may be a card wich is played alot in older UGr builds, but I must say since I play Fledgling Dragon I've won games I couldn't win without it. I haven't tested it alot but I won a small tournament last friday with my current list. I played against, Meathooks 1-0, UGw Threshold 2-0 and Random Elf.deck 2-1. I really like to know what your opinion is about this card.

kabal

11-04-2007, 10:35 AM

So after discussing this with some teammates of mine I decide to test Fledgling Dragon...

Have you given Serendib Efreet a try? No need for Threshold, survives bolt and is blue. Unfortunately its side effect is fairly is pretty bad.

Ragnarok

11-04-2007, 10:50 AM

I haven't tested it yet, but I think I don't want to try it. In my opinion efreet isn't a bomb, and that's what you want. If you are in a stalemate, Dragon can change the tie and when you are in the disadvantage it can as well. And efreet costs you first 1 life before it becomes active and when you drop a second it's like you are on a suicide tour especially when you've had some beating. If I was going to test something in place of Fledgling Dragon it would probably be Sea Drake.

aTn

11-04-2007, 11:51 AM

As was said before, Sea Drake is nice Bolt meat...

The only negative thing I have to say about F. Dragon is that it has RR in its casting cost, which is sometimes hard to obtain when facing mana-denial (Port, Wasteland, etc.). I find that it's easier to play F. D. in the UGR controlish builds, where you have at least 15 cantrips.

Maybe it is because I haven't read all of the post is in this topic. But I haven't seen anyone complaining about the biggest problem threshold has in my opinion. The lack of creatures with evasion.

For about the last 10 tournaments I attended (I try to attend at least two Legacy events per month), I played a tempo build and I rarely felt the need to have evasive creatures; Fire/Ice, Bolt, big undercosted creatures, etc. made for a quick clock, at least in the meta present at the time. These days, I'm reverting to the control build.

All this bla bla bla to say that my build choices were obviously meta dependent; it's hard to say that evasion is necessary in Threshold in general.

P.S.: I'll say what everyone told me when I joined theSource: Read the entire thread; redundancy is natural but sometimes annoying.

Citrus-God

11-04-2007, 03:13 PM

Have you given Serendib Efreet a try? No need for Threshold, survives bolt and is blue. Unfortunately its side effect is fairly is pretty bad.

The thing about Dragon is that it is good for damage races.

donkyranger

11-04-2007, 05:15 PM

Gaw, why is there so much thinking involved in the game of Magic.

But any way on to important things, I need comments about cantrips (other than BS) (such as Ponder, Predict, Serum Visions, Portent, Mental Note) on incorporating Counterbalance in the main and how many CB and tops? 3 and 3, 2 and 3 ect.

Also comments on Spell Snare in a deck with Cb/ top

Anything is appreciated thanks

Citrus-God

11-06-2007, 03:31 AM

Gaw, why is there so much thinking involved in the game of Magic.

Because it's a game about making decisions. Making decisions gets hard at some point.

But any way on to important things, I need comments about cantrips (other than BS) (such as Ponder, Predict, Serum Visions, Portent, Mental Note) on incorporating Counterbalance in the main and how many CB and tops? 3 and 3, 2 and 3 ect.

I have no opinion on Mental Note, as of now. It took me awhile to get used to the more ultra-aggressive plays. I tend to like Predict more because it works better with my skills, considering the fact I am a more flexible player with it.

Ponder is the 2nd most universally agreed upon cantrip. Because everybody who hates Serum Visions loves Portent, and everybody who hates Portent loves Ponder. It lets you work with 3 cards on your turn, acts as a 1 mana "Impulse," gets you that first turn FoW/Daze if you happen to see it.

Serum Visions: I dont seem like them unless I'm chaining cantrips, honestly. The Flaw is the random card drawn.

Portent: Bad for chaining in an entire turn (unless you draw a Brainstorm and crack a fetchland on upkeep, or a Predict), since it doesnt filter and it's a slowtrip, but it still digs very well. I like them as an early game set-up card though.

As for Counterbalance/SDT, I believe that if you want to see them consistently, you need a 3/3 split, always. If you want a 4th Counterbalance maindeck, that works too. And if you have a Counterbalance blindly shooting in the dark, think of it as a "Library of Alexandria." It's probably one of the best card advantage engines, ever.

Also comments on Spell Snare in a deck with Cb/ top

If you feel that your metagame is infested with Goyfs, go ahead. I tend not to, because I like using Counterspells to counter Chants from TES, and Enforcers from Thresh mirrors.

Anything is appreciated thanks

Heres some advice; playtest this deck a lot. Even though some say it's to play, it's gotten harder to play right now considering the format is like, Goyf-infested. The fact you're running Lightning Bolt over Swords should also be put into consideration, as you are forced to plan ahead more and it's more difficult to use properly, as it is not Swords to Plowshares.

You will also crash into some difficult situations, for example, you're playing against Truffle Shuffle, but here's the thing; do you want to slowplay and walk right into Haunting Echoes, or do you want be ultra-aggressive and counter board sweepers? What about Goblins? How is he playing his Matrons? Is he trying to bait them and walk into Daze, or is that the only card in his hand closest to a bomb? The best way to get better at the deck is through experience, careful planning, and creativity through boarding and game play.

donkyranger

11-08-2007, 10:37 AM

Ok, well i don't know about any other red splash players, but my self, has been stuck up on what is a great creature in the thrid spot. Some people have been just leaving it empty, but there is dryad, bear, dragon, and even burning tree shaman. I think if any should be there its Troll Asetics. I played them in a 20+ person turny, and I won it, trolls played a big part in it.

Even though they cost :1: :g: :g: , it doesn't matter. I ran one Taiga to make up for the color difference. It was amazing! Even though I never had to Regenerate it, (because they were all good players and didn't swing into a trap) it still was there and if they would have i could have.

Also it proposes running Jitte in the side or even main, due to being able to equipe, because it has super shroud!

I think it's amazing, and I was wondering what everyone else thought about it?

lukatron2

11-08-2007, 11:57 AM

raharu

11-08-2007, 04:16 PM

What is the flaw behind Dryad?

lukatron2

11-08-2007, 04:50 PM

What is the flaw behind Dryad?

She comes down as a 1/1 and late game when your hand isn't as plentyful as you would like it to be, it isn't a sweet topdeck cause you won't have much to make her grow. if your only other green creatures are tarmogoyfs, then its not as bad but if you run 11-12 mono green creatures like most people along with Top, thats like 1/4 of your deck that won't help your dryad grow. For me personally I don't like having too many 2cc creatures cause if my opponent happens to get an Engineered Explosives for two online, you can say goodbye to your entire crew.

If you're running Dryad along side of Goyf and Fledgling dragon or some other non green creature, I say she's the bomb...

aTn

11-10-2007, 12:55 PM

Dryad is a bad late-game topdeck and takes investment to grow. I prefer playing my cantrips when I want to as opposed to being forced to. For example, opponent casts Bolt targetting 3/3 Dryad, I cast Brainstorm in response... I don't like being forced to do that or being forced to chain cantrips early as opposed to using them later to dig more. I'd rather play Werebear, Fledgling Dragon or even Mystic Enforcer (in UGRw builds).

Troll Ascetic requires major investment manawise to regenerate it and kinda screws the overall mechanic of the deck because of that. The regeneration argument seems to address a problem that doesn't need to be addressed. In my experience, I rarely needed a creature that regenerates in Threshold. An intargetable soon to be 3/3 and a low costed fattie were enough. To make it short, personally I don't like Troll Ascetic (but hey, if you like it, I can't argue with that).

donkyranger

11-11-2007, 09:42 PM

I think it sounds like a pretty sweet idea because he is almost impossible to get rid of (wrath,damnation...?). I never tested troll in thresh but I play 4 in my R/G beats deck and he is often the MVP of the deck (especially with jitte).

So if you ran him what would your creature base would be?

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wearbear
3 Troll ascetic

No, my base was
4 Goyf
4 Mongoose
2 Troll

He was running the role of something like Dragon or Enforcer does, but even esaier to play.

Citrus-God

11-11-2007, 11:49 PM

No, my base was
4 Goyf
4 Mongoose
2 Troll

He was running the role of something like Dragon or Enforcer does, but even esaier to play.

Dragon is actually easier to play... much easier than Troll. Dragon evades, which makes him even easier. True, he requires proper set up and baiting, but it's much worth it having Dragon over a Troll which only blocks Goyf or gets blocked by Goyfs all day.

Slay

11-11-2007, 11:52 PM

Dragon is important because you can play him off of red mana, which happens a lot against decks with mana disruption that are trying to keep you off of Tarmogoyf mana.
-Slay

Adan

11-12-2007, 02:51 AM

Dragon is important because you can play him off of red mana, which happens a lot against decks with mana disruption that are trying to keep you off of Tarmogoyf mana.
-Slay

The thing is that they shouldn't get you off the green manasources IF you know that they will try to. I will also try to find a additional land when I Ponder und Turn one if I expect that my opponent is dumb enough to waste my land, giving me a Timewalk with more Cardquality than he has.

And you should then spare your fetchlands. By the way, I played against 43Land with my BTS-Build and won 2-1. Burning-Tree Shaman and Winter Orb are NUTS against that deck.

Citrus-God

11-12-2007, 11:23 AM

The thing is that they shouldn't get you off the green manasources IF you know that they will try to. I will also try to find a additional land when I Ponder und Turn one if I expect that my opponent is dumb enough to waste my land, giving me a Timewalk with more Cardquality than he has.

He's right. Play lots of cantrips to get around Wasteland and Ports.

1. Use lands seen off cantrips.
2. If you feel that Wasteland might wreck you, a Needle on Wasteland is always good.
3. Only decks with Wasteland that can genuinely hurt you is Vial Goblins. 43 Land is slow if you can get your bombs out against them (Blood Moon, Price of Progress), and Wastelands and Stifles beng thrown at you from Thresh and Landstill doesnt really mean much when you masterfully played around them.
4. Play against decks with Wastelands, a lot. Sometimes you may encounter some tough situations involving Wastelands. The best way to get around these situations is if you've seen it before. So just keep playing against that same deck and know what matters after every small thing eing thrown at you.

Like against Goblins; Jesse Hatfield wrote in an old UGR Threshold primer that the best way to get around Wasteland and Ports is actually keeping your fetchland uncracked or having a Volcanic Island sit in your hand until you're ready to cast a Clasm. This is one of the most genius things I have ever heard of to get around Wastelands just to get a Clasm to resolve.

By the way, I played against 43Land with my BTS-Build and won 2-1. Burning-Tree Shaman and Winter Orb are NUTS against that deck.

Blood Moon is pretty cool too, but it requires a lot of set-up.

Adan

11-12-2007, 01:42 PM

Blood Moon is pretty cool too, but it requires a lot of set-up.

THAT'S WHY HE SUUUUUUCKS!!! xD

BTS and Winter Orb don't need such a setup, since NQG can operate with 1-2 mana without any problems while 43Land can't to anything useful that won't do damage to him.

He's right.

WOW, sigged!

Citrus-God

11-12-2007, 03:07 PM

THAT'S WHY HE SUUUUUUCKS!!! xD

BTS and Winter Orb don't need such a setup, since NQG can operate with 1-2 mana without any problems while 43Land can't to anything useful that won't do damage to him.

Well... what makes Blood Moon good is that it means that the opponent has very little outs to removing it. With Winter Orb, they can still set EE or EOT Disenchant. Blood Moon is usually better than Orb against Landstill.

Adan

11-12-2007, 04:49 PM

Well... what makes Blood Moon good is that it means that the opponent has very little outs to removing it. With Winter Orb, they can still set EE or EOT Disenchant. Blood Moon is usually better than Orb against Landstill.

Landstill plays more Basiclands than you, so if he's aware of Blood Moon, he will fetch Islands. He still can use Eternal Dragon to fetch Plains to StoP your critters and also Disenchant Blood Moon, so Winter Orb is superior because it comes faster and doesn't need such a huge setup like Moon. And like I said in another post, timing is a important factor when playing Threshold. And Blood Moon's timing is worse than Winter Orb's because you need at least 3 Turns to drop a Creature AND play Blood Moon, disabling just his Manlands. Winter Orb cuts off his mana and disrupts his manabase. And without that mana, Landstill can't do anything. But with Blood Moon out, he can still do much more such as using Eternal Dragon, cycling Decree... Or even hardcast Dragon in the lategame.

Blood Moon is WORSE than Winter Orb, since Winter Orb also doesn't disturbs you and also harmonizes well with Ice.

edit: Blood Moon could also be hit by BEB.

Citrus-God

11-12-2007, 05:16 PM

Landstill plays more Basiclands than you, so if he's aware of Blood Moon, he will fetch Islands.

You forget I play with 3 Basics. The Landstill player and I are obviously about even.

He still can use Eternal Dragon to fetch Plains to StoP your critters and also Disenchant Blood Moon, so Winter Orb is superior because it comes faster and doesn't need such a huge setup like Moon.

Your approach to Landstill is different from mine. You're trying to win as fast as possible and gain tempo over the Landstill player through Winter Orb. I want to bait and force down Blood Moon so that my win is ensured.

And like I said in another post, timing is a important factor when playing Threshold.

It depends on the build. Yours is much more aggressive and doesnt run Top, so I can see why you run Winter Orb.

And Blood Moon's timing is worse than Winter Orb's because you need at least 3 Turns to drop a Creature AND play Blood Moon, disabling just his Manlands.

I'm trying to beat Landstill through control elements, not threats and baiting board sweepers. That's just a small part of it obviously.

Winter Orb cuts off his mana and disrupts his manabase. And without that mana, Landstill can't do anything. But with Blood Moon out, he can still do much more such as using Eternal Dragon, cycling Decree... Or even hardcast Dragon in the lategame.

I'm running Sensei's Divining Top. Winter Orb hurts me as much as it hurts him.

Blood Moon is WORSE than Winter Orb, since Winter Orb also doesn't disturbs you and also harmonizes well with Ice.

It's not worse than Winter Orb. From what I've seen, it's less likely to see a Deed come down and wipe Blood Moon off the table if you get the opponent to pop the Deed before Blood Moon came down or it is played before Deed is in play.

With Winter Orb, you'll be 2-3:1 under a Deed/EE. With Blood Moon, they're screwed in some many ways. They cant use fetchlands to get a proper color, and their EEs become much more narrower. It also sucks with your Tops.

edit: Blood Moon could also be hit by BEB.

They wont be playing such an awful and narrow card against you in the first place.

kabal

11-12-2007, 05:27 PM

@Anti~American4621 & Adan : Definitely interesting debate, if you post the builds you are referring too it will help it along.

Citrus-God

11-12-2007, 06:12 PM

Here's Adan's UGR list from way back:

// Lands
2 [RAV] Island (1)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [b] Tropical Island
4 [b] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
3 [GP] Burning-Tree Shaman
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
2 [GP] Repeal
4 [OD] Predict
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [10E] Pyroclasm

And here's my build:

// Lands 17
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
2 Island

// Creatures 10
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Fledgling Dragon

// Spells 33
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Predict
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
4 Lightning Bolt

// Sideboard 15
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Pyroclasm
3 Blood Moon
3 Control Magic
1 Fledgling Dragon

SuicideKing

11-12-2007, 08:23 PM

Like against Goblins; Jesse Hatfield wrote in an old UGR Threshold primer that the best way to get around Wasteland and Ports is actually keeping your fetchland uncracked or having a Volcanic Island sit in your hand until you're ready to cast a Clasm. This is one of the most genius things I have ever heard of to get around Wastelands just to get a Clasm to resolve.

Wow, great advice, is this basic magic therory 101. [Snip] Even the obvious bears repeating on occassion. - Bardo

Fledgling dragon isn't worth playing in this deck because it increases your reliance on having threshold for it to be good. Beyond that its a 4 drop which is contradictory to your entire game plan plan of running low casting cost creatures so you can play a bunch of draw, and still be able to have counters online.

Running crap like that is going to get you owned by affinity and goblins, and it gives loam control all the time they need to lock you out of a game.

Citrus-God

11-12-2007, 11:09 PM

Fledgling dragon isn'tworth playing in this deck because it increases your reliance on having threshold for it to be good. Beyond that its a 4 drop which is contradictory to your entire game plan plan of running low casting cost creatures so you can play a bunch of draw, and still be able to have counters online.

It plays Dragon because it can avoid drawing into it when it doesnt want it. It's just there to get around stalemates, and force a clock on the opponent. It's not very contradicting to it's gameplan because the deck is flexible enough to do other crap. I dont see how you're going to win against Survival when they have more guys on the board than you do...

As for Crypt, why should it matter? You can just play a couple Mental Notes or chain some cantrips to get back Threshold. This shouldnt take long to recover from. Also, isnt this also the reason why we run Needles, Stifles, and Counterbalance?

Running crap like that is going to get you owned by affinity and goblins, and it gives loam control all the time they need to lock you out of a game.

You'll never going to cast it against Affinity, the board state wouldnt matter much when played against Goblins, and I doubt it'll resolve against Loam Control. The point of running them isnt to use it against those decks... it's the mirror match and Midgame decks like Survival.

aTn

11-13-2007, 09:52 AM

@SuicideKing:

Presonally I don't play Dragon, but I understand that some people want to play it, especially in controlish builds (having a slower clock). Also, against match-ups where the ground can be stalled, Dragon breaks the symmetry in your favor. The 'undercosted beaters and cantrips' plan doesn't always unfold like a faerie tale, you sometimes need to be prepared for the middle-late game. As for your comment concerning Golbins and Affinity, I totally disagree (two cards will not change the outcome of these matches in your opponent's favor with a probability of 100%, you're getting carried away I think).

Kyachi

11-13-2007, 11:52 AM

.....

Considering that Dragon happens to be your only out against a Mystic Enforcer short of double bolting, I would say that it warrants definite inclusion. If you lose a counter war over an Enforcer, and it's about 50% that that may happen, you're going to want a way to trade with, or at the very least keep at bay, the big guy you are otherwise incapable of killing.

@ adan: On blood moon/Winter orb. Of the two of these, I'd have to go with Blood moon, because it at least can be less symmetrical than Winter Orb. I don't know why you think it's a good idea to stay tapped out when the Counter/top engine is so mana intensive. I find myself tapping out just about each turn to fix draws and counter stuff, so I have a hard time reconciling the idea of wanting to stay tapped out.

Aside: Merits of Fire//Ice be damned, it is NOT tech to spend two of your untap steps to tap one of their lands under Winter Orb. Ever.

diffy

11-13-2007, 12:27 PM

Considering that Dragon happens to be your only out against a Mystic Enforcer short of double bolting, I would say that it warrants definite inclusion. If you lose a counter war over an Enforcer, and it's about 50% that that may happen, you're going to want a way to trade with, or at the very least keep at bay, the big guy you are otherwise incapable of killing.

You have to keep in mind that Adan always talks about the German NQG list as reference, or at least most of the time. The German aproach is more tempoish than the Hatfield aproach and therefore plays out totaly different (lists (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=178103&postcount=881)).
Dragon has no place in the tempoish versions because then you become more controlish (adding CounterTop etc) and will be better of playing NQGw (wtf, the last few pages are all about this), at least in Adan's and my opinion.

In the tempoish versions of NQG, your out to Fledgling Dragon is just to outrace it... tap it down a turn with Fire/Ice, Repeal it and swing, swing as quickly as possible.
You can also steal him with Shackles if you happen to get into the late game.

On blood moon/Winter orb. Of the two of these, I'd have to go with Blood moon, because it at least can be less symmetrical than Winter Orb. I don't know why you think it's a good idea to stay tapped out when the Counter/top engine is so mana intensive. I find myself tapping out just about each turn to fix draws and counter stuff, so I have a hard time reconciling the idea of wanting to stay tapped out.

Again you have to keep in mind that Winter Orb and Blood Moon belong into two different aproaches to the deck. Blood Moon has the more devastating effect but requires a large setup time which the aggro version (Adans) can't afford to wait. It just wants to make dudes, create tempo and swing while disrupting as much as possible until the opponent is dead so Winter Orb comes in handy as you can just slap it down without bothering about it (read, you don't need the mana as you don't have mana intensive stuff like CounterTop), disturb your opponent and keep on swinging.

Aside: Merits of Fire//Ice be damned, it is NOT tech to spend two of your untap steps to tap one of their lands under Winter Orb. Ever.

Err, he's talking about tapping your own Winter Orb so that you can fully untap once during your untap phase giving you an incredible mana advantage, just if you need it.

The 'undercosted beaters and cantrips' plan doesn't always unfold like a faerie tale, you sometimes need to be prepared for the middle-late game.

This is why I like the German aproach to NQGr. It plays out very aggresively but still has the tools to shine in the late midgame to lategame while not making too many sacrifises to its aggro game plan.
Vedalken Shackles are a bomb in the late game but are still ok from turn 3 onwards 'removing' blockers and such. Predict (Card Advantage which isn't included in the Nicolo Tempo Dryad lists for instance) is also awesome in the lategame but still ok in the early game adding +2 to your grave count.

Here's Adan's UGR list from way back:

Just as a nitpick: from what I know that list plays -1 Island +1 Flooded Strand. You don't need double blue mana at all (no Counter-spell/balance) and you'd rather have a fetchie in about any other situation.

@Anti~American4621 & Adan : Definitely interesting debate

I totaly support Adan, just because he's a German :tongue: just joking.

Kyachi

11-13-2007, 03:01 PM

Err, he's talking about tapping your own Winter Orb so that you can fully untap once during your untap phase giving you an incredible mana advantage, just if you need it.

Yep, I forgot that it had that line on there.

I can't speak for the German meta, perhaps due to the fact that I live in Minnesota (Although we do have a Hanover, does that make us cousins?), but I've played several different versions of Threshold in the past year or two, and I started with an aggressive red list, which I eventually abandoned due to the fact that the controlling lists maintain about as good game against the field and are better in the mirror due to the bigger threats and the counter/top engine. Adan himself played a Hatfield version to a T8 finish recently, showing that it is as good in the German meta as it is here. For reference: http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7603

I know that it's white, but for all rights and purposes, there is little difference between the UGR and UGW Hatfield versions, lack of Swords excepted.

aTn

11-13-2007, 03:21 PM

Considering that Dragon happens to be your only out against a Mystic Enforcer short of double bolting, I would say that it warrants definite inclusion.

Mmm... here are a few outs that I have had when I was testing/playing in tournaments vs. UGW-Threshold: Countering Enforcer, Control Magic on Enforcer (post-board), tapping Enforcer and applying enough pressure so your opponent will want to keep Enforcer as a blocker... and yes, sometimes double bolting Enforcer. It hurts when Enforcer hits the board, but it doesn't make the game an auto-loss for the UGR-Threshold player (who doesn't run F. Dragon), especially post-board.

If you lose a counter war over an Enforcer, and it's about 50% that that may happen...

Could you please justify this statement ? To calculate that probability you have to take into account many things (board, hands, players life points, etc.).

This is why I like the German aproach to NQGr. It plays out very aggresively but still has the tools to shine in the late midgame to lategame while not making too many sacrifises to its aggro game plan.
Vedalken Shackles are a bomb in the late game but are still ok from turn 3 onwards 'removing' blockers and such. Predict (Card Advantage which isn't included in the Nicolo Tempo Dryad lists for instance) is also awesome in the lategame but still ok in the early game adding +2 to your grave count.

I like the German approach (I used to favor more tempo builds), but my tastes have changed a bit these days. I'm playing a more controlish build:

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterbalance

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Predict
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fire/Ice

2 Pithing Needle

1 Forest
2 Island
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

Sideboard (for my meta at the time)
4 Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip
3 Control Magic
4 Thormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle

I'm not sure about Shackles, it seems a bit mana intensive... I'll test it.

Kyachi

11-13-2007, 03:43 PM

Could you please justify this statement ? To calculate that probability you have to take into account many things (board, hands, players life points, etc.).

I would think that it's pretty obvious, you both run the exact same amount of counterspells. I was just being pretty general. Nevermind the Counterbalance part, as if that resolves, much of the "German" version's counter magic turns off...

Adan

11-13-2007, 05:20 PM

Ah, thanks for explaining Clemens. Saved a lot of writing-work for me, but the double-Islands are correct. These 2 Islands are against enemy Blood Moons Rifter liked to play. Island is way enough to be safe from Blood Moon, because you can still operate with cantrips and when the timing is good, just repeal Blood Moon and win.

The build before played -1 Fetch, -2 Shackles, +3 Magma Jet, so 16 Lands and 6 Fetches, so BTS won't disturb that much. With the inclusion of BTS, there are more cards in the CC3 slot, so you need the 17th lands to support BTS and Shackles properly.

And Icing a opponent's land can be a Timewalk. Ok, it's very dependant on the situation, but never mind.

But I begin to understand why you are playing Red Thresh in that way. It has also got the same character of an allrounder, just as NQGw, but with the superior Sideboardcard against Goblins (Clasm), which compensates the worse removal (Lighting Bolt). But in a Goblin-heavy meta, I still prefer my build. You can also increase the number of Pyroclasms, but there's still a hype of Belcher aroung here in GER, so we still need a solution against EtW.

And BTS also pings the Goblin player everytime he actiaves:

Wasteland, Port, Incinerator, Aether Vial and sometimes Kiki-Jiki.

That's why I like him, because in the mid- and lategame he makes Port weeker and weeker.

Citrus-God

11-13-2007, 09:41 PM

But I begin to understand why you are playing Red Thresh in that way. It has also got the same character of an allrounder, just as NQGw, but with the superior Sideboardcard against Goblins (Clasm), which compensates the worse removal (Lighting Bolt). But in a Goblin-heavy meta, I still prefer my build. You can also increase the number of Pyroclasms, but there's still a hype of Belcher aroung here in GER, so we still need a solution against EtW.

EE plays the same role as EtW against Belcher and TES. You should probably consider it in the SB when playing White.

As for UGR as an option, I wouldnt bring it with me unless it's a known metagame (and it has to have Goblins, obv). Outside of that, I'm just going to get cocky and say that the only reason why I'm running Red is because I'm scared of Goblins and that I'm good enough to actually outplay the mirror without making Bolts hurt me in any way.

As for the worse removal, it's probably not as bad as back then when everybody ran Werebears; Bears trade when they collide.

Adan

11-14-2007, 07:52 AM

EE plays the same role as EtW against Belcher and TES. You should probably consider it in the SB when playing White.

I also play EE in the Sb of NQGw, but not at Herxheim, because I knew there would not be any combos like TES or Belcher.

But what do you want to express with that sentence? Who plays EtW against TES or Belcher? O.o

In my opinion, Fire/Ice and Swords to Plowshares gained a lot more value since Tarmogoyf is established. It's important to handle Tarmogoyf in different ways. Swords to Plowshares handles Tarmogoyf properly, but also gives the opponent tons of life, BUT Mystic Enforcer can beat them away within 1 turn.

Fire//Ice allow your "ram Goyf into Goyf, then burn it"-thingy, but it also allows you just to ice a enemy Goyf, draw a card and then attack directly.
This gives you a huge advantage concering the damage race, because you will automatically lead it if you play in that way.

That's the difference (in my eyes) between NQGw and NQGr.

NQGw utilizes control elements such as Counterbalance and Swords to Plowshares to disrupt the opponent's actions, while NQGr archieves this in doing a lot of pressure, forcing the opponent into a defensive playrole, makin him unable to do pressure himself (because he has to save his ass from Beatz and Burn).

aTn

11-14-2007, 07:53 AM

Kyachi: If you lose a counter war over an Enforcer, and it's about 50% that that may happen...

aTn: Could you please justify this statement ? To calculate that probability you have to take into account many things (board, hands, players life points, etc.).

I would think that it's pretty obvious, you both run the exact same amount of counterspells. I was just being pretty general. Nevermind the Counterbalance part, as if that resolves, much of the "German" version's counter magic turns off...

Running the same counter list doesn't necessarily make the probability of losing a counter war over Enforcer 50%. It depends on the cantrips you played or have in hand at the moment, if you baited your opponent previously and he fell for it, etc. etc. The 50% claim really needs to be justified (I can give you plenty of examples where the probability of an event seems obvious but when you calculate it you get a totally different result).

Adan

11-14-2007, 08:23 AM

Running the same counter list doesn't necessarily make the probability of losing a counter war over Enforcer 50%. It depends on the cantrips you played or have in hand at the moment, if you baited your opponent previously and he fell for it, etc. etc. The 50% claim really needs to be justified (I can give you plenty of examples where the probability of an event seems obvious but when you calculate it you get a totally different result).

The compairison between "German Red" and the standard NQGw with Counterbalance looks like this:

- NQGw is able to generate more CQ. Both of them have BS, Ponder, Predict, but NQGw has also got Sensei's Divining Top in addition to those 12 cantrips, but is a littlebit slower in general than NQGr.

- NQGr is more aggressive than NQGw because of Burn and tempocards like Fire//Ice (Ice), Repeal and Shackles. Burning Tree Shaman is a creature which can compete with Tarmogoyf in the earlygame (average cardtypes in graveyards are Land, Instand and Sorcery in the earlygame) and makes SDT and the opponents Fetchlands suck (you sometimes can take the damage because he don't has got burn to kill you surprisingly).

- NQGw has got Counterbalance as a strong jammer, but it gets obsolete as the opponent starts to drops critters BEFORE you can play Counterbalance.
The Engine itself needs 3 turns to work properly. In these 3 turns you opponent could do...everything.

But the point is that you can exchange the Repeals with Counterspells or whatsoever. Counterspell sometimes is smooth in NQGr because it sometimes can play the part of Meddling Mage.

kabal

11-14-2007, 09:55 AM

This build came in 1st place which was from a recent tournament (http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?typ=2&id=3389) in Krakow I believe with 40+ people.

// lands
4Volcanic Island
4Tropical Island
4Wasteland
3Polluted Delta
3Flooded Strand

// creatures
4Tarmogoyf
4Nimble Mongoose
3Werebear

// spells
4Lightning Bolt
4Force of Will
4Daze
4Spell Snare
3Stifle
4Brainstorm
4Mental Note
4Serum Visions

// sideboard
3Umezawa's Jitte
3Engineered Explosives
3Pyroclasm
2Red Elemental Blast
2Pyroblast
2Krosan Grip

Silverdragon

11-14-2007, 10:28 AM

In the coverage Fortier talks about how he doesn't know anything about Legacy and makes mistakes left and right. However he also says that Tarmogoyf is the best creature in the format allowing him to win games he had no right to win. (He also is a Pro Tour champion so even though he talks about all the mistakes he made I'm sure he's still better than most players at the event.)
Having said that, I had a good laugh when I saw his list. I won't touch the whole Serum Visions vs Ponder debate but I mean seriously, 3 Umezawa's Jitte with only 7 creatures that can actually be equipped just looks like a bad idea.

aTn

11-14-2007, 10:35 AM

Adan, I agree with your points concerning German UGR vs. Counter-Top UGW. I took into account we were discussing a UGR list similar to the one I posted vs. Counter-Top UGW. Anyhow....

Kabal, the list you posted looks a lot like Nicolo's GP Columbus list (the SB is obviously different). At what position did this deck finish ? What match-ups did it face ? (Sorry, my German is not that good).

Kyachi

11-14-2007, 10:44 AM

Running the same counter list doesn't necessarily make the probability of losing a counter war over Enforcer 50%. It depends on the cantrips you played or have in hand at the moment, if you baited your opponent previously and he fell for it, etc. etc. The 50% claim really needs to be justified (I can give you plenty of examples where the probability of an event seems obvious but when you calculate it you get a totally different result).

You're right. The German version is highly more likely to lose because of the lack of Counterbalance. I was being generic and assuming all other things being even, and I think that it's a fairly moot point to argue over. But I have to thank you for wasting your time by pointing out that there is an obvious relation to game state and player skill. I was operating under the assumption that all Magic players are mindless drones with preprogrammed responses to each spell.

However, to clarify, you both have access to the same amount of hard counters, CB excluded, and the same amount of soft counters. The Hatfield version just doesn't need to use those counters on other things because of the access to CB, so they will be able to save them for things CB can't hit. Is that better?

Adan

11-14-2007, 11:30 AM

You're right. The German version is highly more likely to lose because of the lack of Counterbalance.

WTF?!

He didn't said anything about the German version. O.o
And if you look at the lists of NQGr on www.germagic.de , you will find that none of those UGR Build play Wasteland, they all play tempo-style like "my" build or the build that was piloted by David Caplan on the GenCon or Fortier in Krakow (but Mental Note and Serum Visions, wtf?²).

NOT playing Counterbalance doesn't really make the deck better, it just has a influence on the roles and the flexibility the deck has -> Counterbalance Engine makes "tempo" impossible -> NQGr loses A LOT of aggressiveness.

Please everyone stop talking that "NQGr without Cb sucks"-Bullshit, because it's WRONG.

(Sorry, my German is not that good).

I lol'd! xD

Kyachi

11-14-2007, 02:11 PM

He didn't said anything about the German version. O.o

...

The builds we were talking about were the ones without Fledgling Dragon. I was just using the German one for reference I guess then. I'm counting the above list for Dragons, and I count... still zero.

Also, it isn't "bullshit" . Counterbalance is such insane card advantage in the mirror that if one sticks with response for a few turns, I'd be just about willing to call that game over. For the player without CB, it becomes about getting rid of the enchantment, but for the one who has it, they can go about their plan of otherwise winning. O.o

Threshold without Counterbalance against Threshold with Counterbalance isn't even a game. I don't see why this is hard to understand.

Adan

11-14-2007, 02:40 PM

Threshold without Counterbalance against Threshold with Counterbalance isn't even a game. I don't see why this is hard to understand.

Because you are wrong?! I explained it over 3 posts why.

The engine needs at least 3 turns to work properly. 3 Turns in which the other guy can play: Mongoose, Goyf, Bolt, Predict the top card away. Or something like that (I did that btw. It was very funny). And that only if we act on the assumption that we play: 1st Turn SDT, 2nd Turn Counterbalance.

And Counterbalance still won't prevent the gamewinning cards such as BTS, Force of Will, Vedalken Shackles and Repeal. BTS also makes the Engine suck like hell. Being affixed to play out the Counterbalance engine can give the opponent a double-timewalk, because the timing then is wrong. The thing is that Counterbalance doesn't handle the stuff that's already on the board.

Counterbalance is never INSANELY good in, neither in the earlygame nor in the midgame as a stabilizer. Of course it disrupts the the opponents actions very well, but playing Counterbalance does absolutley no pressure. And pressure is the key to win the mirrormatch, not the Counterbalance Engine.

Or why do you think that NQGr does so well here in Germany? Because it's very strong against Baseruption, and it's wins even against the Counterbalance Engine.

Of course th Engine look insanely strong against the mirrormatch, but practical it's a matter of timing and pressure.

Citrus-God

11-14-2007, 03:46 PM

But what do you want to express with that sentence? Who plays EtW against TES or Belcher? O.o

I had two hours of sleep that day, so I was bound to make mistakes while typing. What I meant to say was, "EE plays the same role as Pyroclasm against EtW."

As for the Tempo versions, I'm sure you guys adapted the 3c Theory off Baseruption so you guys can outplay Counterbalance, right? It just seems to make sense considering the fact you run BTS and Shackles.

aTn

11-14-2007, 04:11 PM

I think that it's a fairly moot point to argue over. But I have to thank you for wasting your time by pointing out that there is an obvious relation to game state and player skill. I was operating under the assumption that all Magic players are mindless drones with preprogrammed responses to each spell.

Thanks for the dose of sarcasm, it really wasn't needed. Way to go in not understanding my point and taking it all too personal. Good job ! Keep up the false assertions based solely on looking at decklists.

Originally Posted by Kyachi:
Threshold without Counterbalance against Threshold with Counterbalance isn't even a game. I don't see why this is hard to understand.

This is far from being obvious (when you stop staring at Counterbalance and start thinking about it for more than 3 seconds); it's simply not true in general. As Adan said, it depends when CB hits the board, what's on the board when it resolves, post-board or pre-board, Needle MD ?, there are ways to get out of CB-Top lock (I once baited CB with Brainstorm and used Predict to flush the top card of my opponent and finally resolved Needle on Top, okay that's not a play I do often).

Again, it sounds like you just looked at the decklists, read the wording of Counterbalance and made your conclusion, that is, it sounds like you haven't playtested much. This is about as much time I'll be wasting on your comments, thanks for the tip.

Kyachi

11-14-2007, 04:58 PM

Thanks for the dose of sarcasm, it really wasn't needed. Way to go in not understanding my point and taking it all too personal. Good job ! Keep up the false assertions based solely on looking at decklists.

I'm not. Any time that I've played Threshold in a tournament, or watched games with Threshold, the player who has CB first tends to win. I can't speak for the German metagame, and I sincerely don't give a damn about what goes on in a country half way around the world with a metagame I'll never play in. I'm speaking from my experience on paper and online.

Further, in my other experience, I used to play almost the exact same version of Adan's list and I found that, guess what, it tended to lose to Counterbalance.

I once baited CB with Brainstorm and used Predict to flush the top card of my opponent and finally resolved Needle on Top, okay that's not a play I do often

As a CB player, worrying about a BS is hardly a matter of importance. When the other player has several cards in hand and I have only one mana available to top, countering cantrips is a little unneeded. That's just bad playing on behalf of your opponent. Further, even if you do get rid of the card on top, why wouldn't the CB player just draw off the Top and counter Needle? And even if they didn't do that, it's still a crap shoot to not hit a 1cc card.

And to bite on my ego, I'm sorry for being rude and sarcastic.

The engine needs at least 3 turns to work properly. 3 Turns in which the other guy can play: Mongoose, Goyf, Bolt, Predict the top card away. Or something like that (I did that btw. It was very funny). And that only if we act on the assumption that we play: 1st Turn SDT, 2nd Turn Counterbalance.
Unbelievably untrue. That works if the CB-less player is on the play and only if the blind CB doesn't hit any of the 2cc cards in the deck (4 Daze, 4 Tarmogoyf, 4 Predict, 2 other Counterbalance). Also, from that point on, to resolve their own threats, the CB player can protect them from your removal and your counter with CB, or the counter that he has saved from not having to waste them on the stuff that CB does counter.

And Counterbalance still won't prevent the gamewinning cards such as BTS, Force of Will, Vedalken Shackles and Repeal
It has as much chance for it to hit your FoW as you have for drawing them... as for the rest, the 3cc is true until post board, but even still, the CB player can save removal and counters to deal with those things that the other player can't afford to.

Citrus-God

11-14-2007, 06:16 PM

Further, in my other experience, I used to play almost the exact same version of Adan's list and I found that, guess what, it tended to lose to Counterbalance.

You played that before I even started playing Counterbalance. I think we did playtest at some point, and I kept thrashing you with UWG Hatfield.

As a CB player, worrying about a BS is hardly a matter of importance. When the other player has several cards in hand and I have only one mana available to top, countering cantrips is a little unneeded. That's just bad playing on behalf of your opponent. Further, even if you do get rid of the card on top, why wouldn't the CB player just draw off the Top and counter Needle? And even if they didn't do that, it's still a crap shoot to not hit a 1cc card.

We both playtested the mirror extensively. When the opponent casts a cantrip and the opposing player happens to have a Counterbalance without Top, we tend to let the cantrip resolve so that when he casts threat, he walks right into it.

It has as much chance for it to hit your FoW as you have for drawing them... as for the rest, the 3cc is true until post board, but even still, the CB player can save removal and counters to deal with those things that the other player can't afford to.

BTS isnt a threat I'm concerned with... and Shackles can be answered by Needle. Post-board, the Counterbalance player will probably side in Grips and Shackles.

aTn

11-14-2007, 06:29 PM

Kyachi: I can't speak for the German metagame, and I sincerely don't give a damn about what goes on in a country half way around the world with a metagame I'll never play in. I'm speaking from my experience on paper and online.

Ok, point taken. I can't speak for the German meta since I'm in Canada (near New-York).

Kyachi: That's just bad playing on behalf of your opponent. Further, even if you do get rid of the card on top, why wouldn't the CB player just draw off the Top and counter Needle?

I agree; he didn't activate Top to draw and that was a major misplay on his part (I drew Stifle with Predict but I don't think he could have known that).

Kyachi: And to bite on my ego, I'm sorry for being rude and sarcastic.

I'll do the same here...:wink:

For a couple of months following the GP Columbus, influenced by Nicolo's list, I played a tempo CB-Top-less UGR-Threshold build. When playing against UGR-CB-Top-Threshold (variations on the Hatfield's list) , I'd just keep counters for an early-game CB (I used to play 4 FoW, 4 Daze, 4 Spell Snare) and try to have an edge on the board (which tends to happen when you play Stifle + Wastelands early in the game to slow your opponent down). A mid to late game CB didn't wreck my plans that much, but hey, that's just my experience with the deck, yours might prove different.

AntiAmerican4621: We both playtested the mirror extensively. When the opponent casts a cantrip and the opposing player happens to have a Counterbalance without Top, we tend to let the cantrip resolve so that when he casts threat, he walks right into it.

I adopt the same strategy when Top isn't on the board (on my side, me being the opponent's opponent ;)).

What Threshold build(s) is (are) more appropriate for the American meta (say, that of TML03) ?

Any thoughts on merging the Threshold threads ?

Kyachi

11-14-2007, 11:39 PM

What Threshold build(s) is (are) more appropriate for the American meta (say, that of TML03) ?
I'm a huge fan of the Hatfield's version. It took me a while to get here, but I don't think that I'd ever go back. To me, Threshold is, at its core, a control deck that happens to have access some of the best creatures available at the lowest casting costs available. Achieving threshold with the deck is so incidental that I've found that the speed from Mental Note is really not worth the blind mill and -1 card from Predict. That and the satisfaction of Predicting Breakfast's Worldly Tutor targets. That's just funny. My list is identical to AA's list above if I were red, swapping in swords and enforcer if I were white.

I'm not sure on the amount of finishers, I saw that some lists were eschewing the 3 needles for additional Counterspells and an extra Enforcer/Dragon in the main, but I'm not sold on that. Needle is such a panacea for me, I guess I use it as a bit of a crutch, and I don't think that I'm ready to get rid of it.

Looking at the lists from TMLO, obviously Ewokslayer's list of Survival was the deck to beat, and thus, the more Enforcers to hide behind against Shriekmaw, the better. This may be me, but I always feel like the less aggressive Threshold lists do better, but it's totally possible that's just my playstyle. I feel like Threshold isn't threat dense enough to make a lot of early pressure, it just has inevitability over a lot of things because of Counter/Top. Anyways, the more Enforcers, the better, looking at Day one lists. That and Day 2 Machinus played UGb Thresh, which I feel has a huge problem against UGw, in that there are zero outs to Mystic Enforcer other than early Thoughtseize+pray the opponent has the Enforcer in hand and no Brainstorm to save it. There is not 4cc spell to CB it, and looking at his board, I didn't see any way to hurt it there. For reference, the lists are at http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7617

Looking back over what I've written here, I realize that I sound like I'm pitching white Thresh on the Red thread, but I'm just responding to a question. Also, I know it seems like I'm ignoring Bardo's list, but its just more aggressive than I feel is necessary. Apologies to all offended parties.

Any thoughts on merging the Threshold threads ?
I think that's possible, as there are really a few minute differences between lists outside of the sideboard, and that's mostly because of necessity. Bolt may as well be swords and Dragon may as well be Enforcer.

Lego

11-15-2007, 01:42 AM

It has as much chance for it to hit your FoW as you have for drawing them... as for the rest, the 3cc is true until post board, but even still, the CB player can save removal and counters to deal with those things that the other player can't afford to.

Sometimes more so, as you have Top. I've got to agree with you that CB is huge in the mirror. I can't overstate its worth. I haven't tested hundreds of games, but I've literally never lost a mirror game where I got Counter/Top up before my opponent. I was honestly incredibly surprised to see anyone even arguing about it. As far as I'm concerned, it's a non-issue. CB is game breaking. That you think otherwise leads me to believe that you're playing a very non-standard list, or playing versus terrible opponents.

aTn

11-15-2007, 09:47 AM

Thanks for the analysis of TML03. I'm also not sold on letting the Needles go from MD to SB (they tend to help a lot against randomness and the common targets). Like you, I've set aside Bardo's list for quite some time now. I didn't like Mental Note that much and 12-14 creatures seemed a bit too much (in the UGW lists with Goose-Bear/M.Mage-Goyf-Enforcer). My list is starting to get closer and closer to the Hatfield's but I'm not sold on F. Dragon. At the same time, I don't see a good alternative, short of splashing white.

On another subject, I'll soon be acquiring two Rolling Earthquakes and I'm considering the question of replacing two Pyroclasms in my SB with them. I'm not yet convinced. RE hits flying creatures (that don't have horsemanship, heh) and costs the same as Pyroclasm to get rid of ETW tokens. It can also act as a finisher (burning the opponent) in certain match-ups. On the other hand, it costs 2R to kill Bridge from Below tokens and to do the same damage as Pyroclasm (e.g. against Goblins). Thoughts ?

@Lego_Army_Man:

As far as I'm concerned, it's a non-issue. CB is game breaking. That you think otherwise leads me to believe that you're playing a very non-standard list, or playing versus terrible opponents.

Yes CB is game breaking, no one argued with that (well I didn't anyhow).

The argument (as far as I'm concerned) was over the statement that CB-Top lists beat non-CB-Top lists with a 100% probability. The only (very obvious) point I was trying to make was that the advantage CB gives depends on when it is resolve (early, mid or late game), what the game state is when it resolves and what non-CB-Top build we're talking about. Try testing the Hatfield's list against some of the tempo lists (for example the tempo lists from the Gencon top8) and you'll see it isn't that clear who wins game 1 (especially if the tempo list plays Wasteland, Stifle and Spell Snare), although the CB-Top player clearly has an edge. I really can't see why someone wouldn't agree with that.

About playing against bad opponents (pretty sure you aimed that at me): I'm not going to try to convince you that when playing in tournaments I mostly play against good opponents (and when testing I tend to play only against good opponents, except when on MWS :smile:). If thinking otherwise helps you dismiss the comments I make, go ahead. As far as I'm concerned, this was rather a cheap shot on your part, but hey, it happens (no hard feelings).

Here's the list I've been playing for the last three months (I doubt that it's non-standard, but the SB and some MD slots obviously change from time to time).

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterbalance

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Predict
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fire/Ice

2 Pithing Needle

1 Forest
2 Island
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
4 Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip
3 Control Magic
4 Thormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle

Kyachi

11-15-2007, 10:42 AM

On rolling earthquake- what would you want to kill that you would make earthquake bigger than 2? Everything in Goblins has a 2 butt, etw tokens only have 1 toughness... I feel like it would be used as an overcosted 'clasm most of the time. I understand the want for versatility in the Sb, but this isn't a particularly land-endowed deck, the most cost efficiency, the better.

I like having the huge flyer as a must counter/must deal with effect. As it is, all your list has as must counter cards for the mirror is Top, everything else is on a lower tier of threat. Dragon/Enforcer makes them find answers fast and it locks up games that are otherwise lost. That and, and I can't tell you happy I am to be able to finally use this argument in seriousness, everyone else is running them. By saying that, I mean that if other people have a big flyer, you sure as hell should have one too, otherwise your list of outs drops drastically.
The only changes I would make is to drop Fire/Ice for dragons and a needle. SB changes too much to be really discussed.

aTn

11-15-2007, 11:05 AM

I agree with Kyachi about Rolling Earthquake. The only positive point I see is that it allows you to burn the opponent. As you said, the deck doesn't drop that many mana sources on the board, so it's not that probable that it'll do more damage than Bolt, circumstantial at best. The only relevant creatures I see RE killing are Sea Drakes (Bolt deals with that already), Jotun Grunts (with Grunt in play you might end up killing your guys, which isn't that hot), Serra Avengers, Hypnotic Specter, etc. (which aren't played very often in my area). My conclusion is that I'd play RE in a deck like Empty the Slogger, but not in UGR-Threshold.

I've had good results with the list I posted above (a couple of Top1s and many Top4s) but to be honest, I didn't face Hatfield Thresh that often in these tournaments. When I play against Hatfield thresh, I sometimes end up countering Dragon, casting Control Magic on their Dragon, tapping their Dragon and putting pressure with my guys or just dying to Dragon. I guess I'd rather play Dragon (or Enforcer) myself if the match-up were common. I'll test the F. Dragons (-3 F/I + 2 F. Dragon +1 Needle).

I finished first at a local tournament a couple of weeks ago with the following UGRw list (not many Wastelands present that day). I ended up playing against Cephalid Breakfast, Goblins, UGR-Threshold (no Dragons, tempo build) and Belcher. What do you think of the list ? I'm not sold on the whole 4 colors thing, especially if facing lots of mana denial.

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Predict
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterbalance

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares

3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

Sideboard
3 Pyroclasm
4 Meddling Mage
2 Krosan Grip
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Control Magic
3 Pithing Needle

Kyachi

11-15-2007, 12:00 PM

The 4 color thing seems to be really for the sideboarded Pyroclasm. You don't really need additional reach from the bolts, outside of swords in the MD in my opinion, and if you did, there is always the option of running a couple of Explosives. Also, the 4/3 split in favor of Bolt seems a bit off. Swords is clearly the better removal spell to me.

Citrus-God

11-15-2007, 12:21 PM

So here's my two cents; running less than 3 Tops is a mistake. The number of Counterbalances doesnt really matter, as long as you have 3 Tops. You can run 2, but at least run 3 if you're running Counterbalance maindeck.

Also, you dont need 7 removal spells. You only need 4 so that you can reject them when you dont need them. Besides, isnt Creatures and Swords removal enough? Counterbalance kinda controls the board as well.

aTn

11-15-2007, 01:16 PM

I agree with you that I went a bit overboard on the removal. Ok, so something like -4 Bolt, +1 StoP, +1 Top, +2 Needle (and +1 Pyroclasm, +1 Grip, +1 something in the SB) ?

Did any of you test UGR vs. UGB (Machinus' list) ?

Kyachi

11-15-2007, 02:16 PM

Did any of you test UGR vs. UGB (Machinus' list) ?

The obvious difference is that Ghastly Demise is able to kill off Dragon, so that would improve it in the favor of UGb, but Bolt is able to kill Sea Drake, so that keeps other stuff on par with White. Thoughtseize plays basically the same purpose preboard as with white, but if one were to run Blood Moon postboard, there are 3cc spells to counter it with on the UGb player's side (Sea Drake).

Citrus-God

11-15-2007, 05:32 PM

The obvious difference is that Ghastly Demise is able to kill off Dragon, so that would improve it in the favor of UGb, but Bolt is able to kill Sea Drake, so that keeps other stuff on par with White. Thoughtseize plays basically the same purpose preboard as with white, but if one were to run Blood Moon postboard, there are 3cc spells to counter it with on the UGb player's side (Sea Drake).

I always go for Krosan Grips post-board... that helps against Drakes. Blood Moon is good too, but you should only side in 1-2 copies if you feel like being tricky.

Lego

11-15-2007, 05:52 PM

About playing against bad opponents (pretty sure you aimed that at me): I'm not going to try to convince you that when playing in tournaments I mostly play against good opponents (and when testing I tend to play only against good opponents, except when on MWS :smile:). If thinking otherwise helps you dismiss the comments I make, go ahead. As far as I'm concerned, this was rather a cheap shot on your part, but hey, it happens (no hard feelings).

It wasn't meant to be a cheap shot at you, but simply a statement of fact: If you believe that non-CB lists can consistently beat CB lists, then you're either playing an incredibly non-standard build, or you're playing against terrible players. There's really no other way to spin it. I see that you're not saying that, but I wonder if you are still underestimating CB. If you expect a decent amount of Thresh, there's really no reason not to run the full compliment in the main (this usually means 3/3.) Especially with the decline in Goblins recently.

aTn

11-16-2007, 12:49 PM

Lego said: I see that you're not saying that, but I wonder if you are still underestimating CB. If you expect a decent amount of Thresh, there's really no reason not to run the full compliment in the main (this usually means 3/3.) Especially with the decline in Goblins recently.

I don't think I understimate CB. In fact I have been running it MD in all my threshold builds since about 3 months and I played around 8 tournaments with it MD and I love it. I totally agree with you, I don't see any good reason not to run CB-Top in the Threshold MD these days.

I was just being pointy about the "100% win percentage" statement. Something around the lines of "CB-Top has a great match-up against non-CB-Top") would have made it ok for the anal nitpicking side of my personality - loosing itself in the vagueness and subjective side of the word "great" :rolleyes: (/end oral masturbation).

PhanTom_lt

11-20-2007, 06:22 AM

Made top8 in Baltic Legacy Championships with this deck. Decklist:

Lands:17
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
3 Breeding Pool
1 Steam Vents
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Wooded Foothills

Creatures:10
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Werebear

Spells:33
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Lighnting Bolt
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Serum Visions

Sb:15
3 Krosan Grip
1 Burning tree Shaman
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pyroclasm
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle.

Will write a report later.

aTn

11-20-2007, 12:47 PM

Good job !

How was Shackles for you ? Can you give play situations where it was good/bad ? Thanks in advance...

Adan

11-20-2007, 12:55 PM

Made top8 in Baltic Legacy Championships with this deck. Decklist:

[...]
4 Counterbalance
[...]
3 Daze
[...]
3 Ponder
[...]
4 Serum Vision

WTFWTFWTFWTF?!

That looks random. But aynways, good job. And I said Vedalken Shackles are nuts! Try them!

But I'm still not convinced about Counterbalance in UGR. There are a lot of things that can be done better by UGW. UGR simply doesn't has got appropirate removal-spells to be controlish. They rather gain speedadvantage to win damage-races.

kabal

11-20-2007, 01:27 PM

@PhanTom_lt :

Why 3 Ponder and 4 SV?

Why only 1 BTS in the board? Was it actually boarded in?

Kyachi

11-20-2007, 03:21 PM

UGR simply doesn't has got appropirate removal-spells to be controlish.

I'd say the whole reason to run UGr at all is the availability of Pyroclasm in the SB, otherwise I think that it's outclassed by white on nearly all fronts...

Adan

11-20-2007, 04:53 PM

I'd say the whole reason to run UGr at all is the availability of Pyroclasm in the SB, otherwise I think that it's outclassed by white on nearly all fronts...

Agreed, nothing to add. Except that Pyroclasm is overrated. It's good, yeah, but it doesn't auto-win against Goblin. Keep it real.

aTn

11-20-2007, 06:33 PM

I'd say the whole reason to run UGr at all is the availability of Pyroclasm in the SB, otherwise I think that it's outclassed by white on nearly all fronts...

QFT... oh and let's not forget Meltdown ;)

kabal

11-20-2007, 07:10 PM

I'd say the whole reason to run UGr at all is the availability of Pyroclasm in the SB, otherwise I think that it's outclassed by white on nearly all fronts...

To a lesser degree Ancient Grudge, which can be phenomenal against certain decks.

kabal

11-20-2007, 09:48 PM

The list was recently played @ TML open 3 (Day 1). The thing that caught my eye was the cantrips. He is playing both SV and Ponder. Visions was played a bunch before Ponder and his build is very tempo based so seems to be a good fit. Not to mention, it will ensure that Gofy gets the +1 boost.

What do you guys think?

Austin Pollark

// Lands
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Werebear

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Fire/Ice
4 Force of Will
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
3 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Serum Visions

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 3 Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt

Kyachi

11-20-2007, 09:57 PM

I would really rather that 4th Spell Snare be another lightning bolt personally. 4 seems awfully high for something that situational, regardless of how many tarmogoyfs are floating around.
And the obvious weakness to big flyers.

I don't suppose you know how well this list placed?

On the Serum Visions alongside Ponder: That isn't really anything new I think... Machinus figured out that the double sorcery thing is better tempo than only having the 4 ponders, but he had the good sense to use Portent, which isn't a blind draw... Just saying.

kabal

11-20-2007, 10:18 PM

On the Serum Visions alongside Ponder: That isn't really anything new I think... Machinus figured out that the double sorcery thing is better tempo than only having the 4 ponders, but he had the good sense to use Portent, which isn't a blind draw... Just saying.

I wasn't implying that 8 sorcery cantrips is revolutionary, just I haven't seen 4 SV and Ponder played together in a tournament list. I'm sure it has before this, but I haven't tested it myself and wondering what people thought.

Personally, I have been playing 4 BS, 4 Ponder and 4 Opt for a while now and have enjoyed the results

Kyachi

11-20-2007, 11:08 PM

Personally, I have been playing 4 BS, 4 Ponder and 4 Opt for a while now and have enjoyed the results

I used to play with Opt because I didn't have enough Serum Visions to trade between decks. Mind you this was a loooong time ago...Why do you like Opt over something that digs deeper (Portent/Serum Visions) or something more consistent (The Dradle of Destruction/Sensei's Divining Top)?

kabal

11-20-2007, 11:20 PM

I used to play with Opt because I didn't have enough Serum Visions to trade between decks. Mind you this was a loooong time ago...Why do you like Opt over something that digs deeper (Portent/Serum Visions) or something more consistent (The Dradle of Destruction/Sensei's Divining Top)?

At the time I was playing a playset of Quirion Dryad and I liked the ability to cantrip at the end of my opponent's turn. That way I could keep my mana available for Bolt, Fire, Stifle or Counterspell. Recently I have been reevaluating Opt due to dropping the Dryads for 2 Bears.

kabal

11-22-2007, 12:29 PM

Below is a list from a recent (November 18th, 2007) tournament in Italy with had 30 players. Not CB and runs BTS. Again, more and more finding the cantrip base made up of BS, Ponder and SV in tempo based versions. I noticed that he is running PoP in the board, i'm assuming this is for Landstill and maybe to break a deadlock in the Thresh mirror.

Feltrin Paolo (2nd place)

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [B] Tropical Island
4 [R] Volcanic Island
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [LRW] Island (2)
1 [LRW] Forest (3)

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
2 [GP] Burning-Tree Shaman
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
3 [SC] Stifle
4 [NE] Daze
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [4E] Lightning Bolt
2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [AP] Fire/Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 1 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [OD] Divert
SB: 2 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3 [OV] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip

PhanTom_lt

11-22-2007, 01:40 PM

WTFWTFWTFWTF?!

That looks random. But aynways, good job. And I said Vedalken Shackles are nuts! Try them!

But I'm still not convinced about Counterbalance in UGR. There are a lot of things that can be done better by UGW. UGR simply doesn't has got appropirate removal-spells to be controlish. They rather gain speedadvantage to win damage-races.

Yeah, vedalken shackles won me one game on their back alone. Not having a big bad creature for ex, Dragon or Sea Drake, hurt, so I decided to play 2 Shackles instead.

@PhanTom_lt :

Why 3 Ponder and 4 SV?

Why only 1 BTS in the board? Was it actually boarded in?

My friend argued that SV was better. I had a different experience during the tournament, finding that Ponder is nuts when digging for solutions. In the top 8, i played SV, only for the Scry to reveal Force on the top. He comboed on his turn, naturally. I'll be switching back to 4 Ponder and 3 or 4 SV.
BTS was included because I had 1 free SB slot, and BTS actually helps against Life.dec, which I knew was in the metagame. I didn't play against it, but the Shaman was boarded in against Solidarity and Burn instead of Shackles. About CB - I wanted to play it after having great success with it in UG, and also wanted some more game against combo. In testing it went well, but then maybe I was playing a little controllish, using only 10 creatures and all that.
Report will be written in a few days, had to write it in my own language first. :P

Adan

11-22-2007, 01:40 PM

To a lesser degree Ancient Grudge, which can be phenomenal against certain decks.

Stax and...?

Grudge is not worth mentioning. Anyways I'd prefer Shattering Spree over that.
Ah, finally someone who played BTS, but w00t!!! Serum Visions and no Predicts??? Eeek! And why the fuck a 3/3 split of Lightning Bolts and Fire//Ice? :eek:
But it could be improved.

kabal

11-22-2007, 01:47 PM

Stax and...?

Grudge is not worth mentioning. Anyways I'd prefer Shattering Spree over that.

How about Affinity? Not to mention Landstill is making a hugh come back, great against Crucible of Worlds & Mishra's Factory.

As for Shattering Spree, that takes 2 Red to chain. Quite often you want to have the ability to remove another artifact later, not right then.

kabal

11-22-2007, 01:51 PM

Serum Visions and no Predicts???

Honestly, there is nothing wrong with running a 4/4/3 with BS, Ponder and SV in a tempo based version. Quite often predict can just clog your hand if you don't have another cantrips to support it properly. To be honest, the 2 cards in the graveyard don't hold a lot of weight running just mongoose.

A little off topic, but I think most people have found that MN isn't worth running unless you have a playset of geese and bears

Adan

11-22-2007, 02:01 PM

How about Affinity? Not to mention Landstill is making a hugh come back, great against Crucible of Worlds & Mishra's Factory.

As for Shattering Spree, that takes 2 Red to chain. Quite often you want to have the ability to remove another artifact later, not right then.

You already win against affinity thank to a shitload of burn, where's the problem? O.o
Against Landstill, Krosan Grip is the better choice I think.

kabal

11-22-2007, 02:05 PM

You already win against affinity thank to a shitload of burn, where's the problem?

There are quite a few things that aren't creatures. Cranial Plating, Aether Vial, Jitte and their lands. The ability to destroy 2 of their lands off one spell is quite a tempo boost.

donkyranger

11-24-2007, 05:36 PM

Adan

11-24-2007, 05:47 PM

I personally have been having some trouble fill the third creature spot in goyf/ mongoose/ X creature base and I was wondering what everyone thought of Skyshroud War Beast. With the Meta as it is on average he's not the greatest turn 2 but late game he'd be good. Plus, if you oppnent knew about it or he was on the board, he could possible prevent you opp. from play more lands and in turn stall.

Just wondering what everyone thought. Thanks.

Skyshroud War Beast isn't played because it's still dead/too small against several matchups, even in the mirrormatch because NQG always operates fine with 2-3 manasources so Tarmogoyf is still superior to Skyshroud War Beast. Against Burn for examble, you need a serious clock, but War Beast can't be a threat because Burn doesn't run Non-Basics (except Barbarian Ring, yeah, that's blah).

donkyranger

11-26-2007, 02:40 AM

Good job !

How was Shackles for you ? Can you give play situations where it was good/bad ? Thanks in advance...

I personally have had play experience with Shackles. And if you ask me (the proud owner of 50+ of them) I think it should be in every deck ever made, but I brought it in against Salvagers. It ended up stalling the game out long enough for me to draw enough counters or stifles to stop him and win (happened in both game 2 as well as 3). And considering it went down to 4 cards game 2... I was quite happy with the out come. Um as for being bad... Pithing needle? As well as artifact destruction more common then enchantment.

electrolyze

11-26-2007, 03:33 PM

hello, im building ugr thresh and i really like this deck,

i've tested for a while nog with this deck and now i have this build:

4#Force of Will
4#Daze
4#Brainstorm
4#Lightning Bolt
3#Predict
2#Spell Snare

4#Ponder

4#Wooded Foothills
4#Flooded Strand
3#Volcanic Island
2#Island
1#Forest
3#Tropical Island

4#Nimble Mongoose
4#Tarmogoyf
4#Terravore

3#Counterbalance
3#Sensei’s Divining Top

i really like teravore in this build because i play much fetch(and probably my opponents too) hes a 3c creature so hes good with counterbalance and he has trample wich is really good i think.

there are a few things i want to ask:

3xpredict? should i change it to 3xportent/serum visions because there sorceries, and im aonly playing 4 sorceries?

2xspell snare? should i change it to something else because i already play 8 free counters and 3xcounterbalance.

removal? sould i add more removal, liek fire/ice or chain lightning or something?

greets, electrolyze

kabal

11-26-2007, 07:20 PM

Just browsing through some Top 8 lists, and noticed this build (http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=12123). Granted the build does not splash Red, but contains an interesting inclusion in the main.

Mind Harness (http://magiccards.info/mr/en/78.html)
(1), Enchantment - Aura
Enchant red or green creature.
Cumulative Upkeep - {1}.
You control enchanted creature.

It makes sense for a U/G to run this card, since they have next to no removable and considering today's meta, but does it warrant a try in the Red version? Is it better than Threads or Control Magic? Once it gets around to attacking, you have invested 2 mana. Second attack, you now equal to Threads. But then you have invested less mana per turn, which still allows you to cantrip and cast cheap counter magic.

How about the Red side of it; what Red creatures would you take? If we are talking Goblins; Warchief, Kiki or I guess could be any targetable Goblin?

PhanTom_lt

11-27-2007, 02:17 AM

Strategic Planning is also strange.. Kind of a better but more expensive Mental Note.
I don't think Mind Harness is better than Control Magic or Shackles. You can't keep the stolen creature around for long. Maybe that's all it will take but if you get into a stalemate, you need a permanent solution. Shackles is even better in that situation.

Adan

11-27-2007, 12:22 PM

kabal

11-27-2007, 02:54 PM

Strategic Planning just acts at sorcery speed an costs 2 Mana, that's why it sucks and was never really played in Thresh. The rest is agreed.

Not that i'm advocating using it, but Strategic Planning gives you the option of what card you want to keep, unlike Mental Note.

kabal

11-27-2007, 02:55 PM

I don't think Mind Harness is better than Control Magic or Shackles. You can't keep the stolen creature around for long. Maybe that's all it will take but if you get into a stalemate, you need a permanent solution. Shackles is even better in that situation.

Just FYI...

Mind Harness was awesome all day. Stole so many Goyf, it's crazy.

Shackles is sooo slow in this deck, and you rarely have more than 3 lands anyway.

This comment is regarding the UG Threshold version 4/4/4 with Waste + Stifle

kabal

11-27-2007, 06:06 PM

This build (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14414829&postcount=33) won Serbia - Montenegro Legacy Championship. The think I don't like is the lack of Ponder and inclusive of MN, since there is only 4 threshold creature. Other than that, good to see some BTS.

lands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Island

creatures
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Nimble Mongoose
2x Burning Three Shaman

spells
4x Brainstorm
3x Serum Vision
3x Mental Note
3x Daze
3x Spell Snare
3x Stifle
4x Force of Will
3x Fire / Ice
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Magma Jet

sideboard
4x Tormod's Crypt
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Chill
1x Pyroblast
2x Pithing Needle
3x Pyroclasm

chokin

11-27-2007, 10:47 PM

I think that it's usually a toss up between Ponder and SV for most lists, although it's not uncommon to see them run side by side to ensure a sorcery in the yard. They're very similar I think.

I think that Predict used alongside Ponder works best. Shrinks the number of cards you don't want to see for a relatively low cost. Or Ray of Erasure :P

Kronicler

11-28-2007, 01:34 AM

Uhh... I think it is generally accepted that Ponder is better than SV because they are the same or Ponder is better in all but 1 situation, where the top card of your library is a bomb (aka good) and the 2nd and 3rd cards are bricks (aka bad). I don't remember in what thread this was evaluated but one of the more respected posters on this site did a pretty in depth analysis of all the possible variations of the top three cards of your library and it showed the Ponder is the superior card in general.

Kronicler

donkyranger

11-28-2007, 11:59 AM

I fell in love with CB/ Top Combo last night at a local turny. It was incredible and every game just CB hit the table, even some games without top, I won. The only thing that I question in my build is the Spell Snares. I know its a meta choice, I indeed to like them over Counterspell. I am also I big believer in Stifle in the main. It just makes the Combo match up much essayer (TES and Iggy mostly) and Stifling a fetch land in the mirror or against Fish can be detrimental to their game.

Oh, and I'd like to say this because it's true. Ichorid is a mentally challenged deck. It should die and burn in the place where the devil lives. :eek:

Thank you very much Tool for deleting that deck list from this post. Instead of deleting a new Large post why don't you just delete some of you stupid rules posts. Posting deck lists helps in its own ways, as where posting stupid gay rules in turn DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!

T is for TOOL

11-28-2007, 07:42 PM

People seem to be forgetting some of the basic rules for posting on this site, especially in the LMF.

1. Don't quote large posts or decklists.
2. Don't spam the thread with decklists.
3. Add real content to your posts. Enough of this single sentence question nonsense.
4. Spelling and grammar are important.

kabal

12-02-2007, 02:58 PM

11/28 @ SuperGames Inc.
Alpharreta, GA

13 people, 4 rounds, top 4

Top 2 Split
--------------
NQGr BTS.FTW (me)

// Lands
1 Forest
2 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
3 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
2 Burning-Tree Shaman
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Daze
3 Fire/Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Stifle
4 Ponder
3 Serum Visions

// Artifacts
2 Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Control Magic
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Pyroclasm
SB: 3 Spell Snare
SB: 1 Stifle
SB: 1 Threads of Disloyalty

BTS was the MVP considering I got matched up against Ghoul Cephalid Breakfast twice.

arsenalpow

12-03-2007, 08:11 AM

I've decided to move the counterbalance/top to the maindeck. In the board I ran 4 c/b and 3 tops...what is the consensus on the numbers for applications in the maindeck.

kabal

12-12-2007, 08:45 PM

Just browsing through the 4-1 decks from Worlds, and came across this one.
First off, they are running 14 lands. To supplement the low land count, this individual is running 4 Aether Vial.

What do you think about this build? It has been mentioned in the past that since Threshold can run 4 Wasteland as part of their 18 lands, that maybe 14 can suffice.

Threshold by Nicolas Kohan (http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=12282)

2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
2 Wooded Foothills

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Werebear

4 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Fire / Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mental Note
3 Ponder
4 Spell Snare
3 Stifle

Sideboard
3 Counterbalance
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Adan

12-13-2007, 01:26 AM

Damn, that Build somehow sucks. 4 Mental Notes... Ah, wait, Werebears. Ok, hen it's justified.

But Aether Vials??? 11 creatures are not enough to justify Aether Vial. They may bring you creatures through Counterbalances against Mirrormatches and so on, but in the end I think they are 4 dead slots.

That single Fire/Ice also sucks, I prefer 4 of them (Damage Race and Cardadvantage so on...).
That build really look weird. But that's how Threshold is, if you get early Mungo-beatz you will win anyways, no matter how the remaining 52 Cards look like :cool:

edit: I'm not sure if I corrected it all, but it's half past 7 in the morning so my orthography may suck...

J.V.

12-13-2007, 11:20 PM

Actually the 4 Vials might not be as wasted as they seem. Since the build is only playing 14 lands having the 4 Vials give you a sure fire way to drop creatures (being immune to Counter-Top and other means of counter is just an additional plus) but Vial allows you to keep you mana open for counters It also gives you an answer to Dragon Stompy and it's Chalice for 1 & 2, Trinispheres, and Moon x7-8.

aTn

12-15-2007, 10:42 AM

Actually the 4 Vials might not be as wasted as they seem. Since the build is only playing 14 lands having the 4 Vials give you a sure fire way to drop creatures (being immune to Counter-Top and other means of counter is just an additional plus) .

As was said before, 4 Vial for only 11 creatures doesn't seem that good; they'll often be dead cards.

but Vial allows you to keep you mana open for counters

Threshold plays undercosted creatures and is able to play cantrips and countermagic efficiently because of that. The deck has worked well for years without Aether Vial, I think it's overkill in that aspect.

It also gives you an answer to Dragon Stompy and it's Chalice for 1 & 2, Trinispheres, and Moon x7-8

You play countermagic to take care of that (post-board you still have your countermagic and Ancient Grudge, Krosan Grip). You also have Control Magic post-board for their fatties. It's not that bad a match-up for the 'standard' builds of UGR-Threshold, I don't see again why Aether Vial is necessary in that aspect.

Shriekmaw

12-15-2007, 12:06 PM

[QUOTE=kabal;187505]J

2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
2 Wooded Foothills

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Werebear

4 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Fire / Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mental Note
3 Ponder
4 Spell Snare
3 Stifle
/QUOTE]

I don't agree on the Aether Vials in a traditional build of Threshold, but I can understand why he did in fact put them in. Most of us would agree that its probably not a smart play to include these cards, but let me point out a few things which is a reason why I don't have a problem with them.

This decklist is from Worlds, the last swiss rounds of the tournament which were Legacy. A lot of Pros went with Aggro/Control decks to play since they didn't know the format that well. This is why I believe Vials were included in the decklist. If your expecting most of the field to play control strategies, then having a card if it resolves lets you play your creatures without the worry of counter spells and at instant speed is a very good plan.

I don't see why you guys are bashing the inclusion of Aether Vial, which seemed like a very good call given all the circumstances that were present for these 5 rounds of swiss to end Worlds.

aTn

12-15-2007, 12:25 PM

nickrit2000: I don't see why you guys are bashing the inclusion of Aether Vial, which seemed like a very good call given all the circumstances that were present for these 5 rounds of swiss to end Worlds.

1. No one is bashing, we are questioning and discussing the choice, that is all.

2. We aren't discussing the Worlds metagame or card choices for Worlds, etc. We are discussing the relevance of playing Aether Vial in UGR-Threshold and the relevance of the Kohan build outside of Worlds (since Worlds is now over).

Aether Vial wasn't needed before Worlds when the meta was filled with Threshold and I don't see why it would have been needed for Worlds.

Pros are well... pros, so saying they weren't familiar with the format doesn't seem like a good argument to justify a card choice, all they had to do was playtest... it's their job. Yes there were lots of formats to cover for Worlds, but they had a lot of time to prepare.

Again, playing 4 Vials when you play only 11 creatures really seems bad. Your Vials will very often be dead cards and you'd be better off replacing them with a better metagame call... like playing CB-Top maindeck if you fear a field of Threshold (EDIT: And why not splash W instead of R in that case ? - in the case of Worlds I understand the fear of Gobs and thus the R-splash)..

I'm not saying all this is the absolute truth, but it's my point of view.

galeng

12-18-2007, 09:23 AM

Hey all,

After playing goblins for quite a while and getting irritated that I have little to no control of multiple threats that can mean game, i found the deck too weak for me. I love my standard deck which is a UB control deck and realized that control is the deck for me. After testing landstill and hating it I arrived at UGR thresh and enjoyed it more than any other deck I've tested. And now for some questions..

Firstly, my list:

// Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island

// Creatures (8)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

// Draw (15)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Portent
3 Sensei's Divining Top

// Disruption (13)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell

// Removal (7)
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fire/Ice

// Sideboard (15)
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Stifle
3 Price of Progress
3 Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip

I'm pretty much set with the build and I'm good at playing it. My only questions are:

1. Are my 3 cantrips the right ones? I think Brainstorm is obvious and Ponder is almost obvious. Portent isn't bad because it's like ponder but it can screw your opponent too. I was thinking maybe I should consider Serum Visions instead of Portent since chaining Ponders and Portents is horrible. I wanna stick with 12 minimum :u: costing cantrips so I've considered the :1: :u: ones already.

2. 8 creatures ok? It's working for me, and both are incredibly hard for my opponent to remove.

3. Grip or naturalize in the board? Grip molests opposing coutnerbalances but sometimes i wish i could get an earlier removal on a survival.

4. Stifle or Needle? I found the only matchup where needle is better is survival. Stifle wrecks some decks so I like it.

What do you think?

Citrus-God

12-18-2007, 10:31 AM

1. Yes, it's good.

2. It can be alright. I still prefer running Dragon, though.

3. Grip? Hell yes.

4. None of the above. Also, cut 3 Fire // Ice for 3 Pyroclasm/Shackles.

galeng

12-18-2007, 04:10 PM

1. Yes, it's good.

2. It can be alright. I still prefer running Dragon, though.

3. Grip? Hell yes.

4. None of the above. Also, cut 3 Fire // Ice for 3 Pyroclasm/Shackles.

Thanks for the thoughts firstly.

1. Yeah i was thinking the same.

2. Many people tend to think the same way. I tried werebear, dragon and enforcer (2 to make 10 creatures total) in several builds of thresh. Werebear is a watered down goyf that also needs threshold to be any good so that was an automotic no. Fledgling dragon was a great win con when it hit but it almost never hits since its too slow and incredible hard to support at 4cc and RR in its cost (i needed a truckload of countermagic to back up its resolution). Mystic enforcer was ridiculous when it hit just like dragon but again was hard to support. Both dragon and enforcer are popular tech but i personally think that thresh doesnt need a big beater, just a threat in general with counter backup.

3. Many people are very attached to grip as well. I think it needs to be boarded as well.

4. No stifle or needle? I've found stifle the best sb i have some matchups. No fire/ice?! Are you crazy?! I find this the most versitile card in the deck and it's a big reason i splash red instead of white or black. Shackles is crap, I thought that people have realized that by now. Pyroclasm main deck? It's dead against 75% of the metagame. Please justify your inclusion of Pyroclasm if you can, and maybe shackles. Also tell me why fire/ice needs to go. Thanks.

Citrus-God

12-19-2007, 10:43 AM

Pyroclasm hits combo pieces off Breakfast, Ichorid zombie tokens, Goblins, and other small things. Pyroclasm maindeck is more of a metagame inclusion. Shackles, however, should seriously be considered for the maindeck. Shackles steals combo pieces off Breakfast, makes infinite blockers, bombs the mirror, and is just a better alternative than silly Burn cards doing nothing when you're Goyfless. It takes a Goyf to kill a Goyf if you run Burn.

Kyachi

12-19-2007, 01:07 PM

Also, Fire/Ice doesn't really do anything. It's a worse cantrip, and it's a worse removal spell. I would rather they were dragon, as dragon is a must-answer card once it hits.

kabal

12-19-2007, 01:30 PM

Also, Fire/Ice doesn't really do anything.

Really? ....

How about removing:

Lackey
Warchief
Meddling Mage
Dark Confidant
Factory/Blinkmoth
DotV
Mother of Runes

That is a handful of relevant creatures. Not to mention you can do combat tricks with the Fire side and get tempo boost from upkeep tap out on your opponent's important resources with Ice.

Tao

12-19-2007, 01:30 PM

1. Yes, your cantrips are good. But maybe you can try Predict instead of Portent. With CB, Top, Brainstorm and Ponder you'd have 14 cards that show you the top card of your library.

2. 8 creatures are enough imo. But with only such a few creatures you want additional threats in the SB for the mirror. Threads of Disloyalty would be a good choice.

3. Grip; main reason is Counterbalance, which you have to get rid off but won't hit with Naturalize

4. Needle: You want Needle against Goblins, Survival and Deed-Decks (4C LS, Rock)

>>>>>>>>>>>>> PLAY 4 DAZE (cut one Counterspell)

Citrus-God

12-19-2007, 03:21 PM

Kyachi

12-19-2007, 03:56 PM

aTn

12-19-2007, 08:14 PM

The one thing that I would worry about is Tarmogoyf, but since it's symmetrical, you don't have to worry about their either.

I think good players will name Goyf with MM only when it's in their advantage (for example to get board advantage or to prevent you from having it). MM naming Bolt can be annoying if you don't play any other removal/burn, cutting your option to burn the player and leaving you in a position where you might have to waste counters for the MMs they cast afterwards.

Fire on Confidant is actually decent in the UGb-Threshold match-up, leaving you with the choice to burn your opponent with your Bolts instead of wasting them on Confidant.

I think tapping a fattie is actually important in tempo-UGR to make your clock faster.

galeng

12-26-2007, 12:33 PM

Really? ....

How about removing:

Lackey
Warchief
Meddling Mage
Dark Confidant
Factory/Blinkmoth
DotV
Mother of Runes

That is a handful of relevant creatures. Not to mention you can do combat tricks with the Fire side and get tempo boost from upkeep tap out on your opponent's important resources with Ice.

You got it.

@ Anti American

Why is shackles better than fire/ice when its 4 more mana to use with no advantages? Plus it only hits a small portion of the metagame.

@ Kyachi

If you look at fire/ice as a split card and not one side of it, youll see how versitile it is. Also if you didnt read it properly its 2 dmg split, not just 2. This makes it even better than lightning bolt vs decks like goblins (granting you a 2 for 1 trade). Also its not a cantrip so how can you say its not a good cantrip. Ice is just what the deck needs vs goyf and big creatures that have already resolved. Try testing it.

@ Tao

I've tested predict and threads.
Predict is great when you can implement it well (ex: portent them, mill their best top 3 with predict, draw 2, then 1 on upkeep) giving you great card advantage. Some times its too limiting though and 12 1cc cantrips are a minimum. I dont have any slots for such a card unfortunately.
Threads is okay vs any goyf deck but plain sucks against any non goyf deck. At the cost of 3 its almost an insta counter anyway.
I've been running 4 daze from the beginning and its the worst top deck ever. That's why i went down to 3. Multiple dazing can seem awesome, but its a very harsh loss of tempo in pairs (or more). Counterspell is great, and it just takes anything out. Plus its just better than daze or even FoW after about turn 2-3.

Kyachi

12-26-2007, 01:03 PM

@ Kyachi

If you look at fire/ice as a split card and not one side of it, youll see how versitile it is. Also if you didnt read it properly its 2 dmg split, not just 2. This makes it even better than lightning bolt vs decks like goblins (granting you a 2 for 1 trade). Also its not a cantrip so how can you say its not a good cantrip. Ice is just what the deck needs vs goyf and big creatures that have already resolved. Try testing it.

Wow, thanks for stating the blatantly obvious. In the future, go ahead and assume that if I'm commenting on something, I've probably tested it once or twice. Goblins just isn't a big enough concern anymore for me to care if I can 2 for 1 a Lackey and something else (notably nothing worth killing in Goblins that has a 1 toughness other than Lackey by the way...) So really, I end up shooting the Lackey and the player more often than not, so I might as well play First Volley by that logic. If I thought that Goblins were a problem for this deck, I would start some Pyroclasms.
Also, it is a cantrip! It has a draw a card ability tacked on to a mediocre effect. Ice is not what this needs, delaying for one turn isn't teh tech you may think that it is. Threshold is a control deck, whatever else you may think of it, and you want permanent answers, not chaff.

Citrus-God

12-26-2007, 03:35 PM

@ Anti American

Why is shackles better than fire/ice when its 4 more mana to use with no advantages? Plus it only hits a small portion of the metagame.

-It doesnt hit a small portion of the metagame.

-It's just a better card in the long run.

-Shackles may be 5 mana, but like I said, it's better in the long run.

-Dont think of Threshold as the deck with a short term plan; that way of thinking wont ever get Counterbalance in Threshold to work. You either play cards with a better long run or you go Tempo. Going Tempo is so implied on the odds of the opponent's deck and yours that your games arent going to be as consistent as the CB lists.

galeng

12-26-2007, 11:14 PM

Wow, thanks for stating the blatantly obvious. In the future, go ahead and assume that if I'm commenting on something, I've probably tested it once or twice. Goblins just isn't a big enough concern anymore for me to care if I can 2 for 1 a Lackey and something else (notably nothing worth killing in Goblins that has a 1 toughness other than Lackey by the way...) So really, I end up shooting the Lackey and the player more often than not, so I might as well play First Volley by that logic. If I thought that Goblins were a problem for this deck, I would start some Pyroclasms.
Also, it is a cantrip! It has a draw a card ability tacked on to a mediocre effect. Ice is not what this needs, delaying for one turn isn't teh tech you may think that it is. Threshold is a control deck, whatever else you may think of it, and you want permanent answers, not chaff.

1. Not just good against just goblins. Any deck that runs creatures with toughness 2 or less.

2. Its great because it deals with any creature. <2 toughness = burn with fire, >2 toughness = tap with ice. It also has reach and a potential rishadan port effect with a card draw bonus.

@ Anti American

All youre saying here is: I'm right, your'e wrong.
Do you can any arguements for shackles over any other removal?
Mention key examples instead of just stating that its better.
Thanks much.

Kyachi

12-28-2007, 01:59 PM

1. Not just good against just goblins. Any deck that runs creatures with toughness 2 or less.
Which are not that many... You aren't understanding my argument. The ability to kill things is not a reason to run it, the ability to kill many things would be a reason to run it. As it is, it is too limited to adequately do anything. I would call Lightning Bolt a cut-able card right now due to the inability to kill Tarmogoyf, and if that's on the fence, the two damage spell for 1R is certainly out. It doesn't do enough to justify a MD slot. People see Volcanic Islands in a deck and they simply assume that Fire/Ice would be a good call, and it simply isn't the case here.

2. Its great because it deals with any creature. <2 toughness = burn with fire, >2 toughness = tap with ice. It also has reach and a potential rishadan port effect with a card draw bonus.
No, it doesn't. Threshold games seldom need to squeeze through damage to win. Most of the games that I win, it's because I've stabilized with CB/Top and I'm going to win one way or the other, either now or ten turns from now. Tapping a guy and buying a turn isn't a good use of cards.

chokin

12-28-2007, 03:13 PM

My current list is pretty solid. It needs a few tweaks, but it has been working smoothly.

4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Forest/Mountain

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Burning Tree Shaman

4 Force
3 Daze
2 Counterspell

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire//Ice
3 Pyroclasm

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict

SB
3 Counterbalance
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Needle
2 Explosives
1 Pyroclasm

Matchups:
Belcher - In three weeks, I beat out Belcher 2-0, 2-1 and 2-1. It's a fairly easy match unless I don't have Pyroclasm and a counter ready game 1. After that, Needle the Belcher and having 6 token killing effects really owns them. I've beaten out 14 tokens with 2 Geese and a Goyf before along with a few burn spells, but that took a long time.

Spring Tide - Played once. 2-1. Easy match...countered everything after High Tide resolved. One game I only had 2 counters so that was a loss.

Stax - In two weeks, I beat it 2-1 twice. Keeping that Chalice @ 1 off the table is tough, but necessary. Having a 3cc creature helps a lot too against Trinisphere and Chalice@1/2. You have to counter things that make you pay more. Game 2/3 I bring in Needles and Grips and sometimes Crypt. Needle on the fetch and wastelands and grips for tons. Crypt I put in to stop Crucible.

Thresh - Matchup from hell. It's mostly luck/draw based. If you run Spell Snare over Counterspell or something else, it helps, but Spell Snare sucks against too many decks and CS hits ANYTHING for one more. CB is crucial and Crypt pwns them bad obviously.

Replenish/Opal Deck - 2-1...counter Replenish and Opal and Moat. Crypt for Replenish and Rector.

The Rock - 1-2 and 0-2. Deed hurts my board and does next to nothing to them. Needle helps here, but Monger is too freakin big. Extripates on Force or my creatures is GG.

White Weenie - Either I just had terrible draws, or this is a bad match. I couldn't stop the shadow pro-red guy with a Jitte. Explosives came down too late and I cried a lot.

What do you guys think of my decklist? I don't use Top anymore because it gets Needle'd and I hate using Grips to nail that...and trying to get an Explosives on the table is not easy to do sometimes. So using my cantrips more effectively was my solution.

Ponder hasn't made me happy in a while, so I went back to SV. I kept having 1 card I liked and not wanting the other two with Ponder, but maybe I'll give it another chance.

Adan

12-29-2007, 07:12 AM

Ponder hasn't made me happy in a while, so I went back to SV. I kept having 1 card I liked and not wanting the other two with Ponder, but maybe I'll give it another chance.

WTF, WHY?! Ponder is clearly better than Serum Visions. That's a trivial fact no one can refuse since Ponder reveals you more cards and gives you the possibility to shuffle the crap away. Also the card you draw is not random then.

I also don't like that you are just playing 3 Dazes, run 4 of them. Legacy became faster. 4 Dazes are strong in the early- and mid-game, and that's where NQG always shines the most. Late-Game is still solid, but NQGr is a tempodeck anyways, so it should not come to an lategame.

I would still run Shackles over Pyroclasms since Goblins has gone back anyways and I still think Pyroclasm is still overrated against Goblins since you can win against Goblins even without it if you play tight.

chokin

12-29-2007, 12:47 PM

WTF, WHY?! Ponder is clearly better than Serum Visions. That's a trivial fact no one can refuse since Ponder reveals you more cards and gives you the possibility to shuffle the crap away. Also the card you draw is not random then.

I also don't like that you are just playing 3 Dazes, run 4 of them. Legacy became faster. 4 Dazes are strong in the early- and mid-game, and that's where NQG always shines the most. Late-Game is still solid, but NQGr is a tempodeck anyways, so it should not come to an lategame.

I would still run Shackles over Pyroclasms since Goblins has gone back anyways and I still think Pyroclasm is still overrated against Goblins since you can win against Goblins even without it if you play tight.

On Ponder. Like 90% of the time, there was ONE card I wanted and two that needed to go away. And almost every time that this happened, I had no shuffle effects. Plus, if you decide to use the shuffle then draw, you're getting a random with two unknowns after. With Visions, I had one unknown and two randoms that could be fixed. I think I'm going to use a 2/2 split of Visions and Ponder though.

For me, Daze has been great. I think that when I built the deck, I had 4, but I think I misplaced the last copy. I remember having 10 counters, 10 creatures, and 10 burn when I built it, but those numbers have changed slightly.

I'm getting Shackles soon, so that's an easy fix. Pyroclasm has won me lots of games, but Shackles will for sure help with my victory against my tougher matchups.

Basically, my deck is tuned for my meta. I think that I'm gonna fiddle with it. Burning Tree Shaman really shone at the last tourney I went to. I was playing against Mono Blue Control and he had a Back to Basics and a Shackles. I burn him down to 5, then cast a Bolt which he takes. I Fire him and he Forces it. I drop BTS next turn and he scoops. It also saved me against Domain (Overgrown Estate and Deed for 2 plus his City of Brass really did him in). So I'll be testing with Ponders again and with looking for my last Daze. And getting Shackles around my birthday (3 weeks! woo!)

Kronicler

12-30-2007, 02:49 PM

Ponder is better than Serum Visions. Machinus went through every possible situation of what the top 3 cards of your library are (whether they are good or bad) and there are more situations where you want ponder. I'll try and dig up the post but you shouldn't be making card decisions based on what usually seems to happen but rather which card is superior in more situations.

Kronicler

Adan

12-30-2007, 04:09 PM

On Ponder. Like 90% of the time, there was ONE card I wanted and two that needed to go away. And almost every time that this happened, I had no shuffle effects. Plus, if you decide to use the shuffle then draw, you're getting a random with two unknowns after. With Visions, I had one unknown and two randoms that could be fixed.

That's an extremely stupid argument, sorry, but Ponder can work as a tutor for the final burnspell and so on. And then you are telling me Serum Visions finds actual solutions better than Portent? Ok, you are not saying so, but what advantages has Serum Visions got over Ponder? Right, none.

When you play Serum Visions, you draw one random card you probably don't need, and think: "Fuck, this could have been the "I-Win"-Card".

And you also have 7-8 Fetchlands, having a shuffle effect shouldn't be a problem. Combine Brainstorm and Ponder with Shuffle-Effects and they are insane. Ponder itself is a shuffle effect that pairs up well with rainstorm and has got a better synergy with Predict than Serum Visions has.

galeng

12-30-2007, 06:18 PM

Goblin Snowman

12-30-2007, 08:57 PM

@ Kyashi
Well I think we can both conclude that its a metagame choice. If more than X% of all creatures played are tarmogoyf, then indeed it isnt effective vs X% of the metagame and shouldn't be played if X is scary big. I havent seen goyf in every single deck so I'm okay with the fire/ice inclusion. Really just depends on what's being played near you really.

Here is the thing - As Goyf is better than every creature at his casting cost, and because the fall in popularity of Goblins means Wasteland isn't such a threat, almost every deck is running him. Sui varients, Fish, Zoo, Survival, Rock, obviously Threshold. There really isn't an aggro deck that has a reason to not run Tarmogoyf, and thus, he appears in most competitive decks.

Also, as Fire//Ice is always a 1 for 1 in the Goblins MU (seriously....Lackey is the only 1 toughness Goblin worth hitting, and Fanatic, Matron, and SGC Tokens are usually ok with eating it), which makes me question its usefulness there. There are a host of other cards that are much better than Fire//Ice in this matchup, that retain their use outside of here. I understand it has marginal use against random decks running cards such as Bob, but there are much better choices against these types of decks (such as additional cantrips to find more land/recover from discard, Shackles to simply win, and so on).

What matchup do you feel is improved by running Fire//Ice or Magma Jet over, say, Engineered Explosives, Counterspell, additional cantrips, Shackles, Control Magic, Threads, or whatever other card you might fit in?

kabal

12-30-2007, 09:21 PM

and because the fall in popularity of Goblins means Wasteland isn't such a threat

Really???... I think Wasteland is more of a threat now than ever before. So many decks are running nothing but duals so now manabases have become extremely vulnerable to things like Magus/Blood Moon (see Dragon Stompy) and even variants of Threshold/Fish have adopted Wasteland into their manabase + Stifle to have a land destruction package for today's Meta. Besides those Landstill, Aggro Loam, and Stax all run Wasteland as well.

Goblin Snowman

12-31-2007, 01:23 AM

Really???... I think Wasteland is more of a threat now than ever before. So many decks are running nothing but duals so now manabases have become extremely vulnerable to things like Magus/Blood Moon (see Dragon Stompy) and even variants of Threshold/Fish have adopted Wasteland into their manabase + Stifle to have a land destruction package for today's Meta. Besides those Landstill, Aggro Loam, and Stax all run Wasteland as well.

Even so, many decks are still splashing Green for Tarmogoyf. It would be hard for a UBW Fish player to not start Goyf, or a Sui player to go Green for Deed and Goyf. Also, all of these decks combined do not come close to the number of Goblins that were showing up with four Wasteland and four Port. This may change, but there is still less (obvious) hate for nonbasics at this time.

Adan

12-31-2007, 07:04 AM

What matchup do you feel is improved by running Fire//Ice or Magma Jet over, say, Engineered Explosives, Counterspell, additional cantrips, Shackles, Control Magic, Threads, or whatever other card you might fit in?

It doesn't really improve the matchup, but it improves the deck's role as a tempo deck since Fire//Ice can also trade 1 to 2 or even 1 to 3 (you can shoot some Toughness-1 Goblins to rescue your Tarmogoyf from being barbecued by Incinerator. Ok, still 1 to 2 since he will draw a cards, but anyways...).

Against Goblins it's also difficult to reach 5 Mana, that's why I prefer to play Burning Tree Shaman since he has got a solid body with 3/4, pings around of Goblins uses Wastelands, Ports, Vials, maybe Mad Aunties (Why not Goblin King, wtf...). And against Goblins, you need as much spotremoval as you can get. But I'm still thinking about 4 Stifle in the Sideboard against Goblins instead of Blue Elemental blast since the most disturbing thing is still the tutor effect of Matron and the FoF-Effect of Ringleader.

Fire//Ice is a good card in addition to Bolt, Repal and Shackles to damage race the opponent efficiently. Also look at Anti's "Goyf-into-Goyf, then burn"-argument.

Goblin Snowman

12-31-2007, 10:33 AM

It doesn't really improve the matchup, but it improves the deck's role as a tempo deck since Fire//Ice can also trade 1 to 2 or even 1 to 3 (you can shoot some Toughness-1 Goblins to rescue your Tarmogoyf from being barbecued by Incinerator. Ok, still 1 to 2 since he will draw a cards, but anyways...).

Against Goblins it's also difficult to reach 5 Mana, that's why I prefer to play Burning Tree Shaman since he has got a solid body with 3/4, pings around of Goblins uses Wastelands, Ports, Vials, maybe Mad Aunties (Why not Goblin King, wtf...). And against Goblins, you need as much spotremoval as you can get. But I'm still thinking about 4 Stifle in the Sideboard against Goblins instead of Blue Elemental blast since the most disturbing thing is still the tutor effect of Matron and the FoF-Effect of Ringleader.

Fire//Ice is a good card in addition to Bolt, Repal and Shackles to damage race the opponent efficiently. Also look at Anti's "Goyf-into-Goyf, then burn"-argument.

If you're honestly worried about the Goblins matchup, start 4 Pyroclasm. Poof, you've increased your win ratio against Goblins dramaticly without really affecting other matchups. Burning Tree Shaman is still utter trash in the mirror - I can't see your build ever doing well in that matchup (which, incidentally, is more common than the Goblins matchup).

One last thing - You see to have it stuck in your mind that Fire//Ice will actually net you a two for one, ever. It really won't, as Matron has done its thing if it's in play, and SGC Tokens aren't exactly hot to remove. Hitting 2x Lackey is basicly the only way to gain card advantage off of it.

chokin

12-31-2007, 12:14 PM

So last night I retested Ponder over Visions, and I must've just had some horrid luck when doing original testing. I'll be sticking to Ponder now.

On Fire//Ice - GoblinSnowman is pretty much dead on. All of the goblins you want to kill have 2 toughness (aside from Lackey, obviously).

Pyroclasm is good if you expect Goblins or low toughness weenie decks, so I think it's safe to board a few copies. In my meta having 2 Clasms is basically necessary.

What's with the hate on Burning Tree Shaman? What else are you going to run in that slot? Dryad, Drake, Efreet, or Werebear? I think that Dryad is arguablythe best creature to toss in, but I'm just tired of seeing her in the late game(and early on, I got tired of seeing her die to Bolt). BTS felt like a pretty solid creature that punished popular decks over here like Breakfast, Survival, and decks using SDT. He munches Mongoose, isn't grave dependent and owns Jitte. All of those reasons kinda made me put him in there (I ran Dryad for a long time though). Drake died to Bolt...Efreet's ping a turn adds up with fetch and opposing creatures, and Werebear is ok I suppose but I don't like having a 2 cost Llanowar Elf when I'm Crypted.

Thoughts?

Kyachi

12-31-2007, 02:14 PM

What's with the hate on Burning Tree Shaman? What else are you going to run in that slot? Dryad, Drake, Efreet, or Werebear?

Dragon? I think that should be fairly obvious...

But, back onto Burning-Tree Shaman? I don't see how you can possibly think that he's a good body for the casting cost. The only other thing that he shares power with costs one green, and everything else outclasses him and costs less. And playing him punishes you for having a high fetchland count. And it discourages you for using CounterTop.

EDIT: How can you claim that the Efreet's pinging adds up and the damage from Burning Tree via your own fetches doesn't? At least the Efreet flies.

Illissius

12-31-2007, 02:20 PM

If not Dragon, I'd just go with Sea Drake, personally. Bolts are getting scarcer thanks to the Goyf.

Kyachi

12-31-2007, 03:03 PM

If not Dragon, I'd just go with Sea Drake, personally. Bolts are getting scarcer thanks to the Goyf.

I like the Dragon because I can leave use it to hide from Wrath effects when I've got CounterTop going. The deck has so few permanents that I want to be able to keep them around whenever possible. The three casting cost slot isn't dangerous enough for me to want to have Drake, the only thing that I'm scared of is Deed.

Citrus-God

12-31-2007, 03:50 PM

If not Dragon, I'd just go with Sea Drake, personally. Bolts are getting scarcer thanks to the Goyf.

Or instead, you run more cantrips and a better mana base to get Dragon online.

@Goblins thingy: Just run Clasms. Goblin Snowman is right, Fire // Ice wont give you a dominant position.

Adan

12-31-2007, 04:59 PM

If you're honestly worried about the Goblins matchup, start 4 Pyroclasm. Poof, you've increased your win ratio against Goblins dramaticly without really affecting other matchups. Burning Tree Shaman is still utter trash in the mirror - I can't see your build ever doing well in that matchup (which, incidentally, is more common than the Goblins matchup).

One last thing - You see to have it stuck in your mind that Fire//Ice will actually net you a two for one, ever. It really won't, as Matron has done its thing if it's in play, and SGC Tokens aren't exactly hot to remove. Hitting 2x Lackey is basicly the only way to gain card advantage off of it.

What the hell are you talking about? O.o
You say that Burning Tree Shaman is trash in the mirrormatch, but then you say I should run 4 Pyroclasm against Goblins, but Pyroclasms won't do much in the mirrormatch. Your suggestions together somehow make no sense. Burning Tree Shaman is bad in the mirrormatch???

Ok, tell me why. Because in the mirrormatch, it's about who makes pressure first. Burning Tree Shaman helps you since he's a early beater that has got a solid body, makes the opponents fetchlands suck, the Countertop Engine then is also painful to use and he's bigger then early Goyfs or Mongeese. Because of it's CC3, he evades the Balance Engine. These are all valid arguments for it, which ones do you have AGAINST Burning Tree Shaman?

The Goblin matchup is easy with NQGr in the first place. Actually I don't really see the need of Pyroclasm. NQGw can win against Goblins and you don't need Pyroclasm/Tivadar's Crusade here.

And I still think that Counterbalance-Engine doesn't really fit into NQGr since NQGr has to be aggressive instead of trying to be controlish since NQGw can do it way better than NQGr can.

If you got problems with Burning Tree Shaman, you should first test it and get used to it instead of just looking at it and say: he sucks with fetchlands. But doesn't that make him more powerful against the mirror since he's independant from threshold and he's 3/4, no matter what? CC3 -> out of reach for Counterbalance. But I already mentioned that.

Goblin Snowman

12-31-2007, 05:31 PM

What the hell are you talking about? O.o
You say that Burning Tree Shaman is trash in the mirrormatch, but then you say I should run 4 Pyroclasm against Goblins, but Pyroclasms won't do much in the mirrormatch. Your suggestions together somehow make no sense. Burning Tree Shaman is bad in the mirrormatch???

The point is, while Pyroclasm is also trash in the mirror, it happens to autowin against Goblins while Fire//Ice still blows. Yes, you will still be worse against the mirror, but against Goblins you're golden. Holy context batman.

Ok, tell me why. Because in the mirrormatch, it's about who makes pressure first. Burning Tree Shaman helps you since he's a early beater that has got a solid body, makes the opponents fetchlands suck, the Countertop Engine then is also painful to use and he's bigger then early Goyfs or Mongeese. Because of it's CC3, he evades the Balance Engine. These are all valid arguments for it, which ones do you have AGAINST Burning Tree Shaman?

He is never larger than Tarmogoyf. Ever. I can think of a single instance where Goyf was smaller than a 3/4 on turn three, and that was when no fetches or Ponders had been used. That's argument one, that he is much smaller than Goyf, while Dragon is evasive, always trades (if he's in play, you have two red sources) and will likely win the game on his own. Making fetchlands such is such good tech! While don't I start Choke "for the mirror". It's not like it's affecting both players or anything; Also, you will never be able to burn a player out when Counterbalance is down, so the damage is pretty useless. Also, G/R/1 sucks to cast early game.

The Goblin matchup is easy with NQGr in the first place. Actually I don't really see the need of Pyroclasm. NQGw can win against Goblins and you don't need Pyroclasm/Tivadar's Crusade here.

Agreed. Can we stop putting jank like Magma Jet and Fire//Ice in the maindeck?

And I still think that Counterbalance-Engine doesn't really fit into NQGr since NQGr has to be aggressive instead of trying to be controlish since NQGw can do it way better than NQGr can.

Then you're an idiot. Really, the mirror has become who can stick a CB first. I don't know how to convince you, as you apparently think that one sided CotV (@ both one and two) is bad.

If you got problems with Burning Tree Shaman, you should first test it and get used to it instead of just looking at it and say: he sucks with fetchlands. But doesn't that make him more powerful against the mirror since he's independant from threshold and he's 3/4, no matter what? CC3 -> out of reach for Counterbalance. But I already mentioned that.

I have. I have tested him, FTK when Werebear was around, Trygon Predator, Werebear, Dryad, and Dragon, and one of these kicks the tar out of all of them. While post and elaborate more later.

Adan

12-31-2007, 05:43 PM

Then you're an idiot. Really, the mirror has become who can stick a CB first. I don't know how to convince you, as you apparently think that one sided CotV (@ both one and two) is bad.

Since you are already starting to call me and idiot (even thoug I have some experience with Threshold), you are obviously running out of arguments. people who are affixed of getting the Cabalnce-Engines out are the real idiots because the opponent can smash his critters onto the board. Even in the best scenario, the balance Engine needs at least 3 turns to work properly. In these 3 Turns the opponents can do a lot of things you can't.
(1st Turn Top, 2nd Turn Counterbalance, you are tapped out and Balance is blind for that turn).

And gamewinning cards like Force of Will, BTS/Dragon/Enforcer will still resolve if you don't have Force of Will. Lol, Trygon Predator would be also great in this scenario because it flies over Tarmogyf and Mongoose, destroying the opponents Balance! Good idea. By the was Burning tree Shaman shuts off combos like Cephalid Breakfast and does some extra damage against Survival and Landstill decks, matchups where you need the extra damage.

Illissius

12-31-2007, 05:48 PM

I like the Dragon because I can leave use it to hide from Wrath effects when I've got CounterTop going. The deck has so few permanents that I want to be able to keep them around whenever possible. The three casting cost slot isn't dangerous enough for me to want to have Drake, the only thing that I'm scared of is Deed.

Or instead, you run more cantrips and a better mana base to get Dragon online.

You guys seriously misunderstood what I wrote. "If not Dragon, ...." means "Either Dragon, or FAILING THAT, ..."; in other words, I was presenting Sea Drake as the best alternative finisher if, for whatever reason, you don't want to use Dragon.

Goblin Snowman

12-31-2007, 11:10 PM

Since you are already starting to call me and idiot (even thoug I have some experience with Threshold), you are obviously running out of arguments. people who are affixed of getting the Cabalnce-Engines out are the real idiots because the opponent can smash his critters onto the board. Even in the best scenario, the balance Engine needs at least 3 turns to work properly. In these 3 Turns the opponents can do a lot of things you can't.
(1st Turn Top, 2nd Turn Counterbalance, you are tapped out and Balance is blind for that turn).

Umm....you are aware that, crazy as this sounds, Counterbalance shuts Swords to Plowshares, one of the few nonmass removal spells you will see in this format. Also, no one leads with a turn two Counterbalance, as you open yourself up to Daze. Don't take my word for it, ask literally any Threshold player worth their salt whether Counterbalance is worth starting over crap like Burning Tree.

And gamewinning cards like Force of Will, BTS/Dragon/Enforcer will still resolve if you don't have Force of Will. Lol, Trygon Predator would be also great in this scenario because it flies over Tarmogyf and Mongoose, destroying the opponents Balance! Good idea. By the was Burning tree Shaman shuts off combos like Cephalid Breakfast and does some extra damage against Survival and Landstill decks, matchups where you need the extra damage.

Force of Will is hardly game winning, and I'd much rather be able to play my own Dragon to trade with their Enforcer/Dragon. I'm not sure what you mean by, "You need Force of Will". Burning Tree is even worse in these situations. Landstill will kill off Burning Tree before he becomes relevant almost every time, as he has a 4 butt and is targetable. Survival is just happy that you gave them additional targets for otherwise dead Shriekmaws.

Illissius - Sea Drake is decent, but since he will very rarely not die from blocking a Goyf, Mongoose, Enforcer, or Dragon, he in inferior in my mind. Also, since he costs a good deal of money, I'm not sure what the circumstances of having him and not Dragon/Enforcer would be.

Adan

12-31-2007, 11:41 PM

Umm....you are aware that, crazy as this sounds, Counterbalance shuts Swords to Plowshares, one of the few nonmass removal spells you will see in this format. Also, no one leads with a turn two Counterbalance, as you open yourself up to Daze. Don't take my word for it, ask literally any Threshold player worth their salt whether Counterbalance is worth starting over crap like Burning Tree.

Force of Will is hardly game winning, and I'd much rather be able to play my own Dragon to trade with their Enforcer/Dragon. I'm not sure what you mean by, "You need Force of Will".

Ah, so you indeed need 3 turns where you can't do anyhing else but being affixed to get the engine together, right? That Balance Engine shuts down Swords to Plowshares is trivial, but in what way is that relevant when we are talking about NQGr? It won't stop Burning Tree Shaman or Vedalken Shackles to resolve. The actual gamewinnign cards will still resolve through it. And Force of Wll is actually one of them.

Burning Tree is even worse in these situations. Landstill will kill off Burning Tree before he becomes relevant almost every time, as he has a 4 butt and is targetable. Survival is just happy that you gave them additional targets for otherwise dead Shriekmaws.

Extremely stupid arguments, since the same is true for the Dragon and there's no advantage the Dragon has to offer over Burning tree Shaman which at least DOES something that is uncomfortable for those matchups. Ah, I just noticed that Dragon is also the worst cardchoice against Shriekmaw since Mystic Enforcer has still got Protection from Black, so he can't be targeted by Shriekmaw and Ghastly Demise in the mirror, but Dragon can. I suggest you think about the validity of your arguments before downplaying other things and get own goals afterwards.

So there's still no advantage of playing counterbalanced Red Thresh over counterbalanced White ***** since the white variant can do the control part better than Red Thresh. Playing Counterbalance means that you are control-oriented.

Goblin Snowman

01-01-2008, 12:11 PM

Michael Keller

01-01-2008, 12:48 PM

Are we talking about the Red Threshold mirror right now? If so, then you assume both players have the exact same chance at drawing/player Goyfs on turn two (which incidentally, shut off all other creatures except Dragon and each other.) Here would be an example;

Bad Player - Mongoose, go
Good Player - Fetchland, Ponder, go
Bad Player - Goyf, Daze, One you, go
Good Player - Top, go
Bad Player - Burning Tree, one you, go
Good Player - Goyf, go

Now at this point in the game, if the good player drops a Counterbalance, there is no way for them to lose. Really. You would have a one turn window where you could kill off their Goyf, and then you would die, simply because they can ramp up creatures, and you will never resolve a spell the rest of the game (unless it's more Useless-Tree Shaman!). This is not an E-Peen I have to be right, this is me utterly confused why you would destroy your mirror MU for the sake of running Trash. (Also, against Survival, Landstill, ever deck that has Tendrils of Agony, Fish, and basicly decks that run good cards, Counterbalance will defend about half of what you're worried about).

Right, but just because someone drops Counterbalance and Top doesn't mean that's (essentially) game over. That's a semi-mana-intensive situation and if you wanted to get that going early in the mirror it might be their only option to establish threats so that they can actually put some heat on - as in making an opponent use Top main phase and actually having to cast something. In the scenario you posted, obviously that's the appropriate play, but assuming you don't get Top/Balance rolling by turn two-three, who's to say that's too late?

I agree to the extent that the combo is potentially game-winning in the mirror, but you need both those cards, untapped lands, and some sort of threat on board to get it going early and sometimes un-targetable creatures work well against Swords (or Bolt, depending on which version you play). A well-timed Daze would hurt just as worse early. I'm not saying the combo isn't great, I'm not, all I'm saying is that sometimes if you know what you're opponent is playing you go in playing situational Magic and depending on whether you're on the draw or play, it might be your only shot.