[OLD] UGr Threshold

[Adan]

Good find. Even Alan Comer is using your tech, now (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=sideboard/strategy/sb20020124b)!

...Wait. That's the original Miracle Grow list, from seven years ago. I'm not sure you can claim credit for this one. :wink:

Oh, ok, but 7 years ago... Submerge wasn't played ever since Legacy has established (except in Solidarity to bounce UGW threshold's Meddling Mages).

I didn't knew there was someone who played it. 7 years ago, I was 11 years old, and just switched to high school (well, the equivalent to High School since out school system is different).

Ok, it was Alan Comer's tech and i simply revived it because it's really good in the current Goyf-infested metagame. Is that ok? :tongue:

[Happy Gilmore]

Four months or so ago Kreiger and I were using submerge in the SB of our UGr Canadian thresh builds, it was ok. I personally tested it well over a year about before Tarmogoyf was out because of how hard it was to deal with Mystic Enforcer and other large fatties it the format. It was also, only ok. I feel that a metagame requireing huge amounts of anti-tarmogoyf sb cards should signal a color change. Nothing is better in the mirror than 5c thresh.

Nothing special here...move along....move long.

[kiwi]

What do you think about playing Mind Harness in the side board?

Mind Harness can be a good tech special againts aggro loam decks, Rocks, Dragon Stompy and moreover It steals goyfs and goyf is played in a lot of decks !!

When any opponent played me a very big creature (like doran, terravore or Coutryside Cruser) I had problems... on other hand Mind harness can steal a monster from Dragon Stompy. Controlling a creature during 2 o 3 turns can be the victory...

[Adan]

What do you think about playing Mind Harness in the side board?

Mind Harness can be a good tech special againts aggro loam decks, Rocks, Dragon Stompy and moreover It steals goyfs and goyf is played in a lot of decks !!

When any opponent played me a very big creature (like doran, terravore or Coutryside Cruser) I had problems... on other hand Mind harness can steal a monster from Dragon Stompy. Controlling a creature during 2 o 3 turns can be the victory...

Yeah, I'm still looking for asian ones, but I'm chronically broke...

Mind Harness was already played in some sideboards. I guess it's also more versatile than Submerge (but against the above mentioned matchups there should be no difference. Except DS obv.)

[Shriekmaw]

In my most recent list of Canadian Threshold I play 2 copies of Control Magic for an answer to creatures that I can't deal with. I've been pretty happy with my board so far as the deck is by far the best threshold list out there.

Current Board:

2 Ancient Grudge/Pithing Needle (Metagame)
2 Pyroblast
2 Control Magic
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Trygran Predator
3 Pyroclasm

[kiwi]

2 Ancient Grudge/Pithing Needle (Metagame)
2 Pyroblast
2 Control Magic
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Trygran Predator
3 Pyroclasm

Looks like a good but with one defect what do you do againts Ichorid ? Losing without couldn't do anything...

I have seen this new list of thresmoon, a guy from Spain got one top 8 and another top 2 in two 40+ people tourneys in the same weekend.

4 Polluted Delta
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Forest
2 Island

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Magus of the Moon

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Stifle
4 Ponder
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Fire/Ice

Sb:
2 Trygon Predator
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Blood Moon
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Tormod's Crypt

What do you think about this list?

What is better this list of
the typicial list of thresmoon with blood moon and fledgling dragons?

[Shriekmaw]

2 Ancient Grudge/Pithing Needle (Metagame)
2 Pyroblast
2 Control Magic
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Trygran Predator
3 Pyroclasm

Looks like a good but with one defect what do you do againts Ichorid ? Losing without couldn't do anything...




First of all, Ichorid is a poor matchup as it is and devoting 3 or 4 slots for crypts in my opinion are not worth it because you are probably going to lose that matchup anyways.

I rather focus on the other matchups in the meta game. I don't believe Ichorid is a major concern, at least in the meta games that I play it. Maybe if more people start playing the deck it will be more of a concern.

In Hadley, I decided to cut needle for grudge because I knew there was going to be a lot of Dreadstill over there and of course I was right.

[goobafish]

I would run 4 Crypts in a random metagame right now, but if it known to be Ichorid Light, like mine, I would not run any. Its more of a 4 or none type card. Control magic has no place in that sideboard, it simply costs too much mana. Threads of Disloyalty is often better.

[kiwi]

Whats your land configuration for playing 2 control magic in the sideboard ?

8 Fetch lands , 4 Tropicla, 4 Volcanic and 4 Wastelands ??

[Mental]

Whats your land configuration for playing 2 control magic in the sideboard ?

8 Fetch lands , 4 Tropicla, 4 Volcanic and 4 Wastelands ??

God no, that's 20 lands. If you want a thrash like base, play 7 Fetches, 4 Trops, 3 Volcs, and 4 Wastelands.

[Adan]

God no, that's 20 lands. If you want a thrash like base, play 7 Fetches, 4 Trops, 3 Volcs, and 4 Wastelands.

6 Fetch, 8 Duals, 4 Wastes.

[Shriekmaw]

I would run 4 Crypts in a random metagame right now, but if it known to be Ichorid Light, like mine, I would not run any. Its more of a 4 or none type card. Control magic has no place in that sideboard, it simply costs too much mana. Threads of Disloyalty is often better.



Your right that Threads of Disloyalty is a better choice in the sideboard than Control Magic, but I found in the Syracuse Metagame that actually prefer to have the choice to steal any creature.

I have never found hitting 4 mana to be a problem since its a late game card if anything, plus the ability to dodge counterbalance is also a plus.

If I did expect to see quite a number of Ichorid decks, I would put the crypts back in and this first card I would cut is the control magic for sure. Again, the sideboard is largly dependent on what kind of decks you have to face week in and week out.

Whats your current board look like?

[kiwi]

Sorry, I wanted to say 6 fetches + 8 duals + 4 wastelands.

I know that 20 lands are too much for threshold.

[PhanTom_lt]

In an MTGSal Legacy tournament #4 I placed 2nd with this deck:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [b] Volcanic Island
4 [A] Tropical Island
1 [UNH] Island

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
3 [GP] Burning-Tree Shaman

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
2 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
1 [PS] Rushing River
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [SC] Stifle
//Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [IA] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 2 [NE] Submerge

I won 2-0 against B/W Pox, 2-1 UGb Threshold, 1-2 AggroLoam, 2-0 vs UG Thresh, ID with Wombat, top8 2-1 UGr Thrash, 2-0 FaerieStompy, 1-2 AggroLoam.
The Clasms were useless, as I didn't encounter any aggro decks. Submerge played a good role, but I think I would want Control Magics there, as dealing with Terravore and Tombstalker was hard.

Any hints how to defeat AggroLoam? He was playing a Wish-less version.

[MeddlingMage001]

Mind Harness is also a very solid choice against AggroLoam. You can steal all their creatures for only U... A few turns should be enough with a big terravore or a crusher.

[Shriekmaw]

I won 2-0 against B/W Pox, 2-1 UGb Threshold, 1-2 AggroLoam, 2-0 vs UG Thresh, ID with Wombat, top8 2-1 UGr Thrash, 2-0 FaerieStompy, 1-2 AggroLoam.
The Clasms were useless, as I didn't encounter any aggro decks. Submerge played a good role, but I think I would want Control Magics there, as dealing with Terravore and Tombstalker was hard.

Any hints how to defeat AggroLoam? He was playing a Wish-less version.


Those matchups were pretty favorable for the most part with the exception of Aggro Loam. This matchup is one that I never won playing Canadian Threshold as there creatures are just too big to handle most of the time. You simply don't have enough counters for everything relevant that they play against you.

Against these types of decks is were I like control magic better because they steal any creature in the format. I never had a hard time hitting for mana with this style deck.

I was just wondering on how useful you found Burning-Tree Shaman to be in the course of that tournament?

[PhanTom_lt]

Not that much. However, I don't like Fledgling Dragon in Thrash, and I can't think of any other creature right now, with the possible exception of Quirion Dryad. OR that Predator from the Sb. I expected to face Landstill, and BTS is good against them. To think of it, maybe maindeck Control Magics/Vedalken Shackles/Sower of Temptation would do the trick. Mind Harness is not bad, but it kinda sucks when I'm getting my Trops and Volcs wasted. Although I never had enough mana for Control Magic in those lost games anyway.
I lost against AggroLoam mostly due to excessive Wasteland abuse on his part.

[quietmage]

You ever tried Werebear? 2 for a 4/4 is really nice.

[Shriekmaw]

You ever tried Werebear? 2 for a 4/4 is really nice.

I wouldn't play werebear now or ever. Well, maybe if they ban Tarmogoyf I would. :)

The next best choice is Fledging Dragon in Red Thresh. I would recommend him as a 2 of because he does win games, similar to Mystic Enforcer for white thresh.

Aggro-Loam is just rough, try to avoid it if at all possible. I think the deck is much bigger in Europe than it is at least around here in the states.

There are some bad matchups for Threshold and this is certainly one of them.

[koba]

I wouldn't play werebear now or ever. Well, maybe if they ban Tarmogoyf I would. :)

The next best choice is Fledging Dragon in Red Thresh. I would recommend him as a 2 of because he does win games, similar to Mystic Enforcer for white thresh.


If you find 8 creatures are insufficient, werebear is a fine choice. I would not play a 4 cc creature in trash and I sure find the bear superior to, say quirion dryad. Maindecking two werebear instead of bounce is a reasonable thing to do. Why do you dislike it that much??

[Adan]

Not that much. However, I don't like Fledgling Dragon in Thrash, and I can't think of any other creature right now, with the possible exception of Quirion Dryad. OR that Predator from the Sb. I expected to face Landstill, and BTS is good against them. To think of it, maybe maindeck Control Magics/Vedalken Shackles/Sower of Temptation would do the trick.

BTS + Shackles = oldschool european Threshold:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=10203

-4 Portent, +4 Ponder obv.

This was the tempostyle played here for some time. Burning Tree Shaman was a good meta-call for some time since there were a lot of Cephalid Breakfast, Landstill and Counterbalance-Thresh.

He could hardly be hit by Counterbalance due to his CC3, as well as Vedalken Shackles and Repeal.

This deck rather tries to use Shackles, Repeal and Fire/Ice to generate speedadvantage instead of Wasteland and Stifle. But goobafish's build abuses bounce as well. I somehow like goobafish's build better since it's more effective against mirrormatches than the old build.

[Shriekmaw]

If you find 8 creatures are insufficient, werebear is a fine choice. I would not play a 4 cc creature in trash and I sure find the bear superior to, say quirion dryad. Maindecking two werebear instead of bounce is a reasonable thing to do. Why do you dislike it that much??


I think the 8 creature base is just fine. I found the bounce very useful in many of my matches. They have won me a lot of games where another creature would not of. A lot of versions run the 8 burn spells, so in addtion to the creatures you should have more than enough threats to win the game.

Quririon Dryad is only good if you play a lot of spells that can chain one another to increase his size quickly. If you run Dryad, then I think it has to be a 4 of. Running any less would not make too much sense.

The bounce spells also gives you solutions to a lot of cards you can't deal with if they resolve. Examples would be Counterbalance, Moat, Ruined Halo, Curcible, Humility. Cards like that.

Also, they can be used to save your Goyf from dying in one form or another.

[landstill101]

I think the 8 creature base is just fine. I found the bounce very useful in many of my matches. They have won me a lot of games where another creature would not of. A lot of versions run the 8 burn spells, so in addtion to the creatures you should have more than enough threats to win the game.


The bounce spells also gives you solutions to a lot of cards you can't deal with if they resolve. Examples would be Counterbalance, Moat, Ruined Halo, Curcible, Humility. Cards like that.



This is very true in more ways than one. I play 8 creatures in my build and have found them to be more than enough. In my build I run 1 rushing river and 1 wipe away which has helped me win many games just by bouncing that lone goyf which is in my way to ruined halo, humility etc. It improves the first game against random things that could harm you.

[Serin]

Hi, I have been playing "Canadian Thresh" for quite a long time, in weekly tournaments with pretty good results (I played Magic through Revised-Masques, and Mirrodin-Kamigawa and came back with the release of Lorwyn (damn, I missed the launch of the time spiral block, with all that nostalgia... well, lets get on topic).

But last tournament I faced a matchup that seemed impossible to beat. It was UGB ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh. He was good player, but it looked like, at least, in the "mirror" he always had the upper hand. We played some games after our match, and I improved a bit, but he won all of them.

He didnt play CB/Top, and "only" had black for dark confidant and thoughtseize (and bitterblossom from SB).
Not many people play ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh here (usually just me), so Im not used to play the mirror ie, I got some spells Dazed, and I know that shouldnt happen...

My current SB is:

4 Trygon Predator (good vs landstill/DStompy/FStompy/Affinity, common in my meta)
4 Pyroclasm (always 2 goblins players, and some random aggro also)
3 Mind Harness (just trying them out, added only for last tournament, never used them)
2 Ancient Grudge (again, lots of D/FStompy played here)
2 Hydroblast

He played first, and I think that its really important due to Stifle/Daze advantage. How would you sideboard? Do you think I have to make changes to the SB?
Any advice other than "play around daze/stifle" is welcome!

[Adan]

But last tournament I faced a matchup that seemed impossible to beat. It was UGB ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh. He was good player, but it looked like, at least, in the "mirror" he always had the upper hand. We played some games after our match, and I improved a bit, but he won all of them.

He didnt play CB/Top, and "only" had black for dark confidant and thoughtseize (and bitterblossom from SB).
Not many people play ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh here (usually just me), so Im not used to play the mirror ie, I got some spells Dazed, and I know that shouldnt happen...

I don't know how his build looks like, but as soon as he can resolve and protect Dark Confidant, he has got the upper hand. The mirrormatch is either decided by who makes more pressure or who generates more CA to utilize more resources against you.

Thoughtseize is pretty useful against you because you only run 8 creatures, if he can hit one with thoughtseize by chance, he will have a advantage.

This was pretty much the weakness of Canadian Thresh, I played it here in January. Sometimes it can be broken: It handles everything, burns away every threat and screw the oppponent. But nearly every time I managed to do that, we were sitting around draw-going until I finally draw a Goyf or a Nimble Mongoose.

But actually I can't really imagine that you are losing to the simple black variant. Just make sure to handle Dark Confidant, he is often the gamewinner in the mirrormatch. But I guess you would have bigger problems if he plays Counterbalance. In that case, you should board out the bounce and maybe the Lightning Bolts for Threads of Disloyalty and Trygons (I have not tested Mind Harness yet, but Threads would be safer because of CC3).

Just watch out for Daze. :tongue:

But stealing a Goyf or a Confidant will already give you an advantage.

edit:

If there's Landstill, I would play Krosan Grips in the SB.

My Sb for the canadian thresh look like this atm:

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 3 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty

[kiwi]

Next Saturday, Im going to particpate in a tournet, I wait a metagame with landstill, Threshold, Painters, Goblins,Aggroloam and dreadstill.

I think that this kind of moonthres can be a good option, I have seen a Spanish boy doing 2 top 8 in 2 tourneys (with +40 people in both tourneis) in the same weekend


// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [R] Tropical Island
3 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [TSP] Forest (1)
2 [TSP] Island (1)

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [FUT] Magus of the Moon

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
3 [SC] Stifle
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [B] Lightning Bolt

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [9E] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [MI] Mind Harness
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge

Any Advice about this deck ?

[goobafish]

Both of you are missing one of the most, if not the most important card in the sideboard. REB. This is probably what my board would like like right now.

4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm (or EE)
3 Trygon Predator
2 Pithing Needle

[Mental]

I've also had trouble beating UGB Thresh, mainly because I'm forced into being the aggro deck, and they can usually stop me. If I try to be control, they just do it better than me and I lose.

It's not like UGB has trouble playing through Stifle. It sets them back a bit, but in general they play through it fairly easily. And once counterbalance hits, things are ugly.

[sunshine]

Both of you are missing one of the most, if not the most important card in the sideboard. REB. This is probably what my board would like like right now.

4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm (or EE)
3 Trygon Predator
2 Pithing Needle

really no Krosan Grips at all?

[goobafish]

really no Krosan Grips at all?

It remains an option. It is between them and Needles for those 2 slots.

[Omega]

I have played several games with Trygon Predator, and found them to be inferior to Krosan Grip in CB/Top war. I dont know what you people think. You usually have to deal with 1-2 problematic artifact/enchantment. And krosan can deal with it. You don't need a turn after paying 3 mana. The only matchups where i would prefer Trygon are Affinity

I dont know if i am playing them wrong, but these are my feelings

Robert

[thefreakaccident]

Predator also gives you another threat which is definitely not irrelevent in MUs against control decks, especially stax, if you get to three mana, you wanna be able to nuke as many things as possible.

[Serin]

At least in my meta, I find Predators really useful. Bur I usually face one Dragon Stompy and one Faerie Stompy per tournament, with the ocasional affinity. And its really useful against Landstill (more for upping the threat count than for the destroy effect I think, but my opponents told me that Pred wrecks them...)

[Adan]

Predator has got it's advantages, but I guess he is still more specific. He is useless against Landstill as he won't be able to destroy Humility or Pernicious Deed.

He can be countered, hit by removal and needs 1 Turn to do something.

Against Stax and Affinity, he is of course superior to Grip, but i still think Grip is better since it destroys Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, Counterbalances, Shackles, Humility right there. And Split Second is also really nice.

But you can simply run a 2/2 split Grip/predator. At least this is what Clemens and I do.

[Nihil Credo]

But you can simply run a 2/2 split Grip/predator.

I'd like to emphasize this. Simply put, Threshold has a lot of card drawing - use it! Run a card in 4-of if either a) it's consistently better than the alternative; b) you like to see it early and in multiple copies. Two such examples could be Tormod's Crypt or Pyroclasm.

If that is not the case, run 2-3 copies of each card that is better in a specific situations, and rely on your cantrips and Tops to find them.

[goobafish]

Two such examples could be Tormod's Crypt or Pyroclasm.

Don't forget REBs. I can't believe I still see sideboards without them, they have been so key for me.

[Omega]

the reb blast seem like the tech :) Would you recommend them in a non canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh build?

Robert

[FredMaster]

What do you think about Winter Orb in a Canadian Thresh Sideboard against Landstill for exampe? It attacks his manabase even further and Daze absolutely shines. (1. Hardcounter 2. More untapped lands, if played with alternate casting costs)

I actually can't think of another deck I'd like to have them in, spontaneously.
What do you think?

[Citrus-God]

If you truly wanted to attack Landstill, I'd say run Price of Progress. Blood Moon wont work against Landstill anymore since the UW builds moved up to like 5-6 Basic Lands and they can just get around stuff. Winter Orb blows because Landstill will usually set their EEs at 2. If you even attempt to Stifle it, they'll probably dedicate themselves with counters to protecting their EE.

[Adan]

If you truly wanted to attack Landstill, I'd say run Price of Progress.

It hurts yourself O.o


Blood Moon wont work against Landstill anymore since the UW builds moved up to like 5-6 Basic Lands and they can just get around stuff.

That's the reason why Price of Progress blows as well, because thes WILL fetch their basics together first, making PoP hurt yourself more than the LS player.


Winter Orb blows because Landstill will usually set their EEs at 2. If you even attempt to Stifle it, they'll probably dedicate themselves with counters to protecting their EE.

Winter Orb is actually a pretty good idea imo, they usually can't set EE on 2 with a CC higher than 2, which makes it indeed vilnerable to Stifle, but as well as to Spell Snare. Winter orb also makes Daze incredibly stong and makes Decree, WoG, Cunning Wish and Humility suck.

against the "american" 4color Variants with 12 Duals, Price of Progress is indeed devastating, but so is Blood Moon.
Winter Orb might not be as effective against the 4color Variant than against UWb LS, but 4C LS is very vulnerable to Stifle-Waste and therefore we have a fair deal here IMO.

[Citrus-God]

Yes, but you're the aggressor. After one resolves, any damage becomes lethal so they will have to be on the ledge for the whole game. Also, Price of Progress is better suited for the Tempo variants because your life total is always going to be high. Being able to kill Landstill aggressively and quickly is amazing.

[chokin]

I decided to play a really weird build the other night.

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Swans of Bryn Argoll

3 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain of Plasma
2 Lightning Storm
3 Pyroclasm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Predict

I really wanted to try out Swan Combo in Thresh and was tired of playing Goblins. I did well, but my meta is pretty bad. Only 3 rounds at the store I'm at. I could go about 2 miles away to get a better meta and 4 rounds for cheaper, but that'd mean I get done at like 11 instead of 9.

Round 1 was against T2 RG Beats featuring Countryside Crusher, Goyf, and Chameleon Colossus. I went 2-0, pulling off the combo both times.

Round 2 vs White Soldier Weenie. Game 1, I counter everything until and go all the way with a Goyf. Game 2 he mulls to 4 and I go all the way with a Goyf again.

Round 3 vs Boros Burn. Game 1 isn't even close, Swan Combo FTW. Game 2 he drops Red Kamahl and somehow buffs him to 14 power and swings which would leave me at 2. He has 1 card in hand, and 1 mountain open, so before damage I Bolt my tapped Swan and draw into the combo ftw. He had a Shock in hand.

I know there's a bunch of Red Variants right now(Moon, Tempo and least talked about Swan) but any ideas as to what I could do to improve it? I was sad to drop Goose, but very happy to have Clasm.

[MULocke]

17 lands in a build with swans and counter/top? Is this correct, because I think you rerally would like to hit 4 mana with consistency. Always having to ponder/top up lands kinda stinks. Also, do counter/top and swans combo go in the same deck? They both seem to fill that slow, game ending slot to me, and one or the other should be enough. I feel if you're running swans you want to play some faster countermagic to speed yourself up some.

On an unrelated note, I took the Canadian version to a T8 at the 107-man GP side event last weekend. I liked the deck a lot, but the one thing people always got on me about was 0 basics. I've seen many lists of this type with 0, and it makes sense to me, but does anyone have thoughts on what adding a few would do? Also, I can post a report if you guys wanna hear about it (uninteresting for the most part). I went 5-0-2 (IDs) and lost to 43 (42..41..not sure) lands in the first single-elim round.

[Mental]

17 lands in a build with swans and counter/top? Is this correct, because I think you rerally would like to hit 4 mana with consistency. Always having to ponder/top up lands kinda stinks. Also, do counter/top and swans combo go in the same deck? They both seem to fill that slow, game ending slot to me, and one or the other should be enough. I feel if you're running swans you want to play some faster countermagic to speed yourself up some.

On an unrelated note, I took the Canadian version to a T8 at the 107-man GP side event last weekend. I liked the deck a lot, but the one thing people always got on me about was 0 basics. I've seen many lists of this type with 0, and it makes sense to me, but does anyone have thoughts on what adding a few would do? Also, I can post a report if you guys wanna hear about it (uninteresting for the most part). I went 5-0-2 (IDs) and lost to 43 (42..41..not sure) lands in the first single-elim round.

43 Lands is just a tough MU. As long as you can keep them off manabond/exploration and win quick, you have a shot, but it's really ugly. There's not much you can do about it without totally changing the deck, it seems to me.

[MULocke]

43 Lands is just a tough MU. As long as you can keep them off manabond/exploration and win quick, you have a shot, but it's really ugly. There's not much you can do about it without totally changing the deck, it seems to me.

I'm aware that I lose the lands matchup anyway. Honestly, I'm okay with that. I'm talking about more for things like aggro-loam and moon effects from Dragon Stompy (I hear it most from my friend playing this deck).

[goobafish]

On an unrelated note, I took the Canadian version to a T8 at the 107-man GP side event last weekend. I liked the deck a lot, but the one thing people always got on me about was 0 basics. I've seen many lists of this type with 0, and it makes sense to me, but does anyone have thoughts on what adding a few would do? Also, I can post a report if you guys wanna hear about it (uninteresting for the most part). I went 5-0-2 (IDs) and lost to 43 (42..41..not sure) lands in the first single-elim round.

Congratulations on your finish. What list did you use, with which sideboard?

Please do not add basics into this deck. The deck begs for all colors all the time, and running basics gets you color screwed, I have tried it. You always fetch the basic early, and then you are left with 1 or no other colors to use. This deck runs off 1-2 mana, so if one of those lands is an Island, you are either missing R or G for the deck to function.

43 Lands is a known tough matchup, and it is very difficult to play against.

[Mental]

I usually win the Dragon Stompy MU. All it requires is getting early beats (hopefully a Goyf + Goose, or something like that) and smashing face. Save your counters for creatures in the late game, and moon/chalice early on. See, once you have beats going, it doesn't really matter if they drop moon/chalice - you're probably going to win anyways. Dragon Stompy has trouble dealing with a bunch of 5/6 beaters.

BTW, my Dragon Stompy MU is a bit better than normal because I play 2 additional beaters (Werebear).

[undone]

Q: Isnt blood moon a really good choice for the SB as like a 2 of. You can find it easily, but also almost instant wins the 4X lands matchup doesnt it?

[MULocke]

Congratulations on your finish. What list did you use, with which sideboard?

Please do not add basics into this deck. The deck begs for all colors all the time, and running basics gets you color screwed, I have tried it. You always fetch the basic early, and then you are left with 1 or no other colors to use. This deck runs off 1-2 mana, so if one of those lands is an Island, you are either missing R or G for the deck to function.

43 Lands is a known tough matchup, and it is very difficult to play against.

I also think no basics are necessary (I used none), but I've had many people tell me otherwise and I just wanted to make sure it is the consensus (excludes moonthresh obv). As for my list, I played a stock canadian thresh build with the singleton bounce spells, and my sideboard was half well-thought out and half thrown together:

2 crypt
2 EE
4 redblasts (2/2 split)
3 trygon predator
2 krosan grip
2 pyroclasm

blood moon (actually, magus?) seems good if i run into many lands decks. Another idea that came to me is price of progress. moon effects seem better tho.

[Nihil Credo]

Q: Isnt blood moon a really good choice for the SB as like a 2 of. You can find it easily, but also almost instant wins the 4X lands matchup doesnt it?

Yes. However, be warned that you need to build your manabase specifically to handle Blood Moon yourself, with Wooded Foothills and the like.

[undone]

Yes. However, be warned that you need to build your manabase specifically to handle Blood Moon yourself, with Wooded Foothills and the like.

Cant you just cast a tarmogofy pre moon...? or at worst up the SB slots to 3 with 1 forest as the last spot? Doesnt even seem needed though as burn can finish off a deck that is something like

4 DDreams
4 Terravore
4 Manabond
4 Exploration
3 CCrusher
41 moutains

I mean a forest isnt needed, you could just burn them out after 2-3 swings from a goyf/goose.

I will probably play the same SB as you -1 predator -1 K grip for +2 Blood moon for the awful lands MU. What else are bad MUs??

[Nihil Credo]

Cant you just cast a tarmogofy pre moon...? or at worst up the SB slots to 3 with 1 forest as the last spot? Doesnt even seem needed though as burn can finish off a deck that is something like

4 DDreams
4 Terravore
4 Manabond
4 Exploration
3 CCrusher
41 moutains

I mean a forest isnt needed, you could just burn them out after 2-3 swings from a goyf/goose.

That's true of 43 Lands, but if you're going to spend 2-3 SB slots on Blood Moon then it's worth it to go the extra step and make sure you can use it against common decks like AnythingWithPerniciousDeed.dec.

[Whit3 Ghost]

blood moon (actually, magus?) seems good if i run into many lands decks. Another idea that came to me is price of progress. moon effects seem better tho.
Pithing Needle rules in this matchup, because you can just needle Maze of Ith or whatever manlands they have and roll goyfs through their other blockers.

Needle is also amazing in many other matchups as well.

[Adan]

Pithing Needle rules in this matchup, because you can just needle Maze of Ith or whatever manlands they have and roll goyfs through their other blockers.

Needle is also amazing in many other matchups as well.

That's why I win against Lands.dec with the White variant more often than with other variants, because the White one has got maindeck Needles to shut off the Wasteland-gayness and under soem circumstances Maze of Ith, yes.

I then usually run him over with Mystic Enforcer or Hoofprints. Blood Moon and Price of Progress are quite devastating against Lands.dec.

[MULocke]

I think if I were really worried about the m/u but still insistant on red splash, I would just play moon thresh anyway. It gets moon effects and counter/top.

[TheWindyTolarian]

Hi. I'm new to this site's forums, I normally just lurk around here, and I've been slowly building this deck, because most of my play is t2. I was wondering, what is the best temporary substitute for FoW? I don't think I will have any soon but I have the rest of the deck. So until then, what should I run in the slot? (I already have counterspell and daze as 4 ofs)

[Shugyosha]

counterspells are the usual substitute for FOW I think. You could also play 1-of Disrupting Shoal and Misdirection. They are at least pitchable and will help to keep pressure from your manabase. But I wouldn't invest in a Misdirection when you are saving money for FOWs. Shoal is not that expensive though.

[Adan]

I was wondering, what is the best temporary substitute for FoW?

Substitute for FoW??? Not existent.

[TheWindyTolarian]

Substitute for FoW??? Not existent.

I'm aware of that, but I need to fill 4 slots with something.

[ebbitten]

I'm tempted to say foil, but in all honosty that probably wouldn't work with the land count, so maybe more bounce/removal/other disruption?

[Adan]

I'd try Disrupting Shoal under threse circumstances, but playing without FoW sucks like hell, you should always possess a playset when attending to Legacy.

[raharu]

Or not play blue.

Foil isn't that horrible in conjunction with Daze, but I still wouldn't advise it. In all honesty, you aren't going to find a turn zero counterspell that's playable, outside of FoW. I'd sugest Mana Leak.

[Mental]

He could play answers to the things that FoW is usually used to answer (counterbalance, Aether Vial, etc). I'm thinking 2 Engineered Explosives and 2 Counterspell MD.

[xsockmonkeyx]

He could play answers to the things that FoW is usually used to answer (counterbalance, Aether Vial, etc). I'm thinking 2 Engineered Explosives and 2 Counterspell MD.


(I already have counterspell and daze as 4 ofs)

[Mental]

Why would you play CSpell as a 4 of, unless it's replacing FoW?

[TheWindyTolarian]

Why would you play CSpell as a 4 of, unless it's replacing FoW?

Because its the only hard counter in the deck at the moment, and mana leak sucks for me, it counters about 50% of the time.

[Citrus-God]

Because its the only hard counter in the deck at the moment, and mana leak sucks for me, it counters about 50% of the time.

As for horrible as it sounds, I dont think you should ever play an underpowered Threshold deck. You need FoW because there are many games where you have to counter things like opposing Goyfs, Counterbalance, Swords to Plowshares, Survival of the Fittest, Orim's Chant, and other stupid things. But maybe, you could run Spell Snares instead, but even then, you lack a lot of midgame leverage.

[raharu]

As for horrible as it sounds, I dont think you should ever play an underpowered Threshold deck. You need FoW because there are many games where you have to counter things like opposing Goyfs, Counterbalance, Swords to Plowshares, Survival of the Fittest, Orim's Chant, and other stupid things. But maybe, you could run Spell Snares instead, but even then, you lack a lot of midgame leverage.
You shouldn't play threshold without FoW*

Fixed. Threshold is an amazingly strong deck and runs well even when running on basics, 'Morphics, and Werebears, but the core* must be intact. Without that core, the deck is unplayable.

*Core:
4 FoW
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 other cantrip
4 mongoose
4 other cheap beater (i.e. Werebear or 'Goyf)

[Adan]

So, let's bring some fuel to the discussion again:

Yesterday, I played a small tourney in Heidelberg. We were 11 people, playing 4 rounds of swiss. Heidelberg's tournaments won't be bigger than 20 people since the store is pretty small, so I thought I could test out my SwanTresh, as it has never seen play so far:

// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [A] Island (1)
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
3 [SHM] Swans of Bryn Argoll
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [ON] Chain of Plasma
1 [CS] Lightning Storm
3 [OD] Predict

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle

Match 1 vs. Harald "Locutus" Herrlich with UGB TogStill (I knew that because he was asking for Shackles, Smothers and the likes before the tourney).

Game 1 I somehow fail to apply pressure. Additionally, he has got LftL and Waste. Lame. I should really begin to play non-Island basics. Anyways, at one point, he stops wasting my lands. He's at 12 life, with a Tog and one of my Goyfs (I tried to bait because I had Swans+Chain, but he countered my Swans).
So my hand consisted of 2 Bolts and 2 Chains (=12 damage). But the Tog is 1 turn faster and he swings for power 39087349.

Since I can't hit anything with CC3 (Lightning Storm doesn't count!), I board out the Balance-Engine and the 3 Predicts for the Pyroblasts, the Needles and 2 Grips as he also plays CBalance and anything that's annoying.

Game 2 his draw blows and I have double Goyf blowout. I can relax and ignore the Shackles because he has got 2 Island and 2 Mishra's (anti-synergy for the loose!). When he resolves Explosives, I play Swans. Next turn attack and double-Bolt ftw.

Game 3 was quite balanced, I again manage to cantrip together some Goyfs and Geese. He uses up his hand-resources quite fast, but can assemble the Academy Ruins-EE softlock. So when he's at 2 handcards, I play Swans and combo the turn after. But this was the only time I used the combo.

Match 2 vs. Fabian Moyschewitz with Baseruption.

This one should be easy, his creature base is: 4 Confidant, 4 Meddling Mage, 4 Tarmogoyf. 8 of them die due to burn and Goyfs are handles by cleverness... At least i thought so.

Game 1 we both topdeck like hell, with me evetually losing because he has got 2 big Goyf. I don' remember the details, but it was pretty busted.

- 3 Predict, +3 Pyroblast

Game 2 I have 2 Counterbalances. He counters both and so my 2 Goyfs resolve. He's manaflooded and I win.

Game 3 It's similar, this time he counters Nimble Mongoose (it's good because when I have Thresh, it's bigger than his 8 Mages). So this time i can resolve Balance and the turn after a Top. 2 turns later I have Goyf, he Ponders twice,
revealing 3 lands both times (he shuffles obv.), get's upset and concedes.

Match 3 vs. Florian Scholz with RB Goblins.

Game 1 he's colorscrewed and the only thign he really does it playing Matrons -> Warren Wiering to annoy my Goyfs away. But I play FoWs and Dazes and he fails. He has got 2 blockers for my Goyf when he's on 6 life. I have a Chain in my hand and topdeck Bolt. BURN!

- 3 CBalance, -2 Tops, -3 Predict, -1 Swans

+ 3 Pyroclasm, +3 Hydroblast, + 3 Needles.

Game 2 he rapes my opening hand with Cabal Therapy (he hits 2 Bolts and 2 Brainstorms because i draw a 2nd BS after he discarded my Bolts). Without Brainstorm, I can't generate CQ, therefore I can't optimize my draw and he begins to bash my head in with Lackey, Warchief, Piledriver and so on.

Game 3. This one was thrilling. My Goyf was pretty small, but I forced him to block early together with spotremoval. But then he plays 2 Lackey. That's not too bad since he is in topdeckmode and so I still attack and ignore the Lackeys, but of course he topdecks like a champ (Matron and Ringleader, revealing Warchief and Piledriver and Siege Gang).

He's at 5 life and I'm at 14. My Goyf is tapped, he topdecks Mad Auntie which would make the lethal 14 damage. I have 1 handcard. Tropical island. But i know Florian, he is always thinking about the worst case scenario. Quote: "That single hand card has to be - according to Murphy's Law - the Hydroblast. Let's assume you have it, I guess I'll play safe." He attacks non-lethal and gives me 1 Turn. I peek at the top card, it's a BS. I play it and find Pyroclasm FOR T3H WIN!!! I swing with Goyf and he's at 0.

3-0-0

The last match I get paired against team colleague Marius "Chefkoch" Laber. We ID for Top2 split.

3-0-1 and tiebreakers make me 1st place.

Well, I was still sceptic at the end since I used the combo only once. But I burned out my opponent 3 times... I don't know whether the concept makes sense, but I am sure, when Locutus had that softlock out, I could not win without the combo.

But I think I built it pretty good, it's not too affixed on resolving Counterbalance (situational and dead against some matchups), bt can be aggressive at the same time. And even if you are not able to apply pressure, you can still win within 1 turn.

The sideboard was stuffed with miscellaneous stuff... But I have to say that Pyroblasts were godlike. Thanks to Goobafish here, I remembered what he said about REBs being key and so on.

But meh... Any ideas?

[Shugyosha]

Another guy at our local tourneys and me played similar lists for a while and had similar results. Swan combo wins games but is used rarely because you can't assemble it or, and thats interesting, either Swans or the additional burn in form of Chain of Plasma help to win the game. Swan can be a hell of a beater sometimes where all you need is to get 4-8 damage through.

I think the question here is: Does the Swan combo add power to the deck making it stronger even if you use the combo only 1-2 times during a tourney or is it better to play standard UGr instead?

I still don't know the answer. I also tried to runs swans with just a lot of burn but I didn't test it enough and my list was also suboptimal. Basically a 10-12 burn list with Swan instead of Fledgeling Dragon.

Something like:
2-3 Swan
4 Bolt
2-4 Spitebellows (also very potent Goyf removal in red but sorcery speed sucks)
2-6 other burn

Possible burn spells:
Magma Jet
Fire/Ice
Psi Blast
Kindle
Parch
Pyroclasm
Rolling Earthquake

Back in the days when Goblins was the DTB I ran Earthquake over Clasm main because it wrecks Mongoose in the mirror and still gets damage through to the player. It was amazing. But with Swan you will sadly need Rolling Earthquake.

Another idea I had was to combine Swans with Moonthresh but I wasn't satisfied with the results.

[MULocke]

Honestly, I don't feel like swans is the way to go with this deck. Swans is a 4-drop which is already pushing it for this style of play, and it also makes you want to hold onto burn to combo off rather than put pressure on other decks. We don't really have a good endgame, so stalling just seems bad. I understand counter/top gives you some longevity, but I think it just makes the deck unfocused. That's just me, tho.

[Shugyosha]

and it also makes you want to hold onto burn to combo off rather than put pressure on other decks.

That's only the problem with Chain of Plasma and that's why I'm trying to look into alternatives. As you can read in Adans report he used burn quite often to finish the opponent off and that's the way to use it. If the combo doesn't show up you play the deck as any other UGr Threshold.

Actually Swan is better than Fledgeling Dragon in several aspects:
-It is easier to cast, no :r::r:.
-Does not depend on the graveyard.
-cannot be killed by damage which is sometimes crucial even if the opponent draws cards. But it happens rarely I admit.
-Is a really good FOW pitch. Don't underestimate this. It's a real pain having Dragon sit on your hand. Doesn't happen with Swan to often. It is also the reason why more and more UGr lists play Sea Drake as 9-10th creature.

The downsides are that Swan is bad against decks featuring some kind of burn and Dragon usually kills faster but Swan is not only a finisher but a combo piece.

[Nihil Credo]

By far the coolest ability of Swans is to turn random "Oops, I lose" situations into "Oops, I win". Last week, while testing the build, I played a series of matches against various Loam decks (43L, The Perfect Loam, and something resembling Eternal Garden): I won them all 2-0. Game 1 I just ignored those Mazes of Ith and Ruins/EE, instead using counters and CBalance to buy time and fetching lots of lands to slow down the Waste/Port-lock, then went straight for the combo. Game 2 I'd add Blood Moon on top of that.

[chokin]

I think I like Swans in UGr Thresh. I just play the deck how I'd normally play and treat the Swans like the Dragons(pitchable to FoW Dragons :P).

I like Adan's list a lot. I just also like having Pyro's over Geese in the MD just because where I am, I have a lot of Weenie decks running around. It's also really cool with a Swan down because against a lot of decks, it's Wrath+Draw2.

Maybe it's one of those Danger Of Cool Things though.

[Adan]

I like Adan's list a lot.

Wasn't really hard to build, I just took a look at one of the Hatfield's old UGR Thresh lists (the Counterbalance Thresh with Dragons and Bolts) and remodeled it to give it a right to exist.

Because, Clemens' and my UGW builds compared with the Hatfields' UGR builds always ended up in this comclusion:

UGW /w CBalance > UGR /w CBalance

because UGW has got StoPs (superior to Bolt, if it's meant to act as a removal) and Mystic Enforcer ( 4 Mana 6/6, pro Black > 4 Mana 5/5 with manaconsuming Firebreathing).
And because it has got better removal and a slightly more potent finisher, UGW can play the control-role better than UGR.
Red is, in m yopinion, meant to be a tempo-color, providing aggressiveness via reach.

But, with Swans+Chains, we finally have a reason to run UGR /w Counterbalance again:

The random "Oh, I win"-Combo. The deck still has got a solid beater and finally a higher burn-count again, which allows it to act aggressive under some circumstances.

Well... but I'm still not that happy about the 2/3 split of SDT/CBalance.

The maindeck is pretty tight and the only card that could be cut are the Predicts. So, my idea was to play the same cantrip-constellation like the Hatfields 5color Thresh (i.e 4 BS, 4 ponder, 2 Portent = 10 "Dig-3" Cantrips) to have space for the 3rd Top:

// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [A] Island (1)
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
3 [SHM] Swans of Bryn Argoll
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [ON] Chain of Plasma
1 [CS] Lightning Storm
2 [IA] Portent

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle

Any ideas? I guess I need your advise now, because I won't listen to Clemens anymore concering this deck (he wants me to cut Geese and DAZES, WTF?!).

[Nihil Credo]

That's very, very close to what I'm running; the main difference is that I run the MoonThresh manabase, and a different side which includes Moons (also, 18 lands/3 Dazes). Maindeck I've been fiddling with those slots too: I tested and dismissed Pithing Needles and Spell Snares, and right now I've been trying a maindeck pair of Predators, since prison artifact or enchantments are what the combo still doesn't help against.

[MULocke]

Ok, so I'm thinking ahead to am. champs for lack of any other tourneys in my area. I'm gonna run the same MD as before (why mess with success?), but the SB was a bit thrown together and shaky. My list is the canadian (i think...) version with only 8 guys and the singleton bounce spells. The sb I used was:

2 crypt
2 EE
4 reb
3 trygon predator
2 pyroclasm
2 grip

I'm not sure what to do with it or to keep it the same. Any suggestions?

[Ironstickman]

My sideboard (for tempo-canadian thresh) is quite similar:

3 Pyroblast
3 Hydroblast
2 E.explosives
2 Tormod's crypt
2 Pyroclasm
3 K.grip

I play two predators main and no bouncers (expecting stax, chalice aggro, loam, counterbalance etc)
It feels quite uncomfortable to have e.explosives or crypts as a two-of
but they are rather an 'utility removal' at given match-ups
e.g
Although two cryts may not be enough to combat ichorid, it will proof rather useful when playing against things like loam decks, survival decks (yeah, wait till he gets all utility creatures in the graveyard and then cast crypt and remove that squee/genesis & anger), or mirror match (when you'll want to play it at a given time and having more than one is useless),

As for e.explosives it is a vesatile card that serves many purposes (from tokens to prison decks) so it won't dissapoint you if you are facing an unknown meta. If you are not convinced with it I suggest you play pithing needle instead (improving your landstill match-up considerably).

I abuse hydroblast due to the popularity of burn-aggro decks in my meta (obv!?) and i'm quite confortable with the 3/3 hydro/pyro split.
Mind harness has proven to me to be a good choice many times but it is excesively situational ( meaning that in the wrong meta it is crap)

if you expect painters combo you might want to add a singleton gaeas blessing but i believe we already have a favorable match-up (double plus if you play needles XD!)

I believe that the sideboard is not one of the strongest points of this deck (I don't mean it is bad though!). In 2/3 games you'll substitude mediocre cards for others that will do the job better (blasts,clasm,ee) or you bring in cards to avoid hate (grip,predator, needle)---reactive sideboard. but you won't have any sideboard card that will be 'broken' against a given match-up---active sideboard! (as it hapens in landstill or other threshold variants)

on another subject; I've been looking forward to play moonthreshold (not in the local store meta but at big tourney) and I've seen that these decks often include counterbalance main. How is this?
Can it be supported by only 2 islands? should stifles be played even though you don't play wasteland? Are there any alternatives to countertop?

[Jujuhawk]

What does atypical moon thresh list look like? I'm thinking of playing it at a small legacy tourney next tuesday and I've looked for a list and come up with something but I haven't found any real lists yet.

Any help is appreciated.

[yawg07]

What does atypical moon thresh list look like? I'm thinking of playing it at a small legacy tourney next tuesday and I've looked for a list and come up with something but I haven't found any real lists yet.

Any help is appreciated.

QFT, I was wondering the same thing.
We should get a thread for UG/x Thresh Variants in one of the three main threads.

[metalman2785]

QFT, I was wondering the same thing.
We should get a thread for UG/x Thresh Variants in one of the three main threads.

It is a pretty typical red thresh except it runs 2x blood moon and 2-3x Fledging Dragon maindeck.

Then for sideboard it usually runs 4x Magus of the Moon and the other 2 blood moons.

The manabase has 2x island and 1x forest for moon effects.

[Jujuhawk]

There are lots of variants of red thresh. It's obv terrible in something like tempo thresh, but spell snare, no snare? Stifle, no stifle? etc.

And Would you recommend canadian thresh or moon thresh for a meta like this:

A Few Loam decks (1 Aggro Loam, 2 or 3 43 land)
Lots of thresh (UGw, UGwb, UGr, etc.)
A few lands till (mostly cunning landstill)
Like 1 solidarity or 2.
A few D-Stompy
A Few Goblins
Random Aggro/Control/AggroControl (Deadguy, rock, etc.)

There's rarely combo, but sometimes 1 or 2 TES or FT variants.

I'm thinking tempo but I really like the moon build I have right now on paper. I'm probably going to test both this weekend. The tourney is next weekend.

[moOnsteak]

I'm sorry for a noob question :
"For Swan-Thresh build, I can understand that Swan + Chain = infinite draw (limited by how many cards on library). .
Also Lightning Storm can do more than lethal damage to a player if you have all entire library on your hand. .
But if I'm not wrong, I assume this combo only works when you have Swan (already in play) + Chain (getting resolve) + 5 lands (3 volcanic required), doesn't it?
Because I've tested Chain+Swan combo deck outside Threshold build and I have SSG / Lotus Petal to cast Lightning Storm without tap lands for mana. .
Just want to make sure this Threshold playing style is different with that one. ."
Thank you. .

[yawg07]

I'm sorry for a noob question :
"For Swan-Thresh build, I can understand that Swan + Chain = infinite draw (limited by how many cards on library). .
Also Lightning Storm can do more than lethal damage to a player if you have all entire library on your hand. .
But if I'm not wrong, I assume this combo only works when you have Swan (already in play) + Chain (getting resolve) + 5 lands (3 volcanic required), doesn't it?
Because I've tested Chain+Swan combo deck outside Threshold build and I have SSG / Lotus Petal to cast Lightning Storm without tap lands for mana. .
Just want to make sure this Threshold playing style is different with that one. ."
Thank you. .

As far as I know, you just nail swans at the end of their turn, make sure you leave a card in your deck, and go off on your turn.

[moOnsteak]

As far as I know, you just nail swans at the end of their turn, make sure you leave a card in your deck, and go off on your turn.

arghh, I forget about 'instant speed'. .
Thank you very much. .

So let's modify the requirement : Swan (already in play) + Chain (getting resolve) + 3 mana (2 Volcanic required)

[Nihil Credo]

That's theoretically true, but since having Swans in play means you have four mana anyway, by far the more common procedure is: Swans, untap, Chains, draw your third Volcanic (and fifth land) somewhere along the ride, Lightning Storm for the kill.

I usually only Chain at EOT when I have a second Chain and want to play around spot removal (if they Swords in response, I Chain #2 in response and kill on the next untap).

[Adan]

@moOnsteak.

Please don't play SSG or Lotus Petals, they are - similar to Chrome Mox - carddisadvantage.

Just stick to what yawg07 or Nihil Credo said. Drawing the entire library at EOT also isn't that bad. Even if the bottom card is the Lightning Storm, you can just untap and Lightning Storm your opponent during your upkeep and therefore win before you would lose. The same is possible for triple/quad Lightning Bolt to your opponents head.

Sometimes even the Bolts are enough to kill and there's no need to plow through your deck for the Lightning Storm.

[yawg07]

I built a Swan-Thresh deck and went 6-0 at the local shop tourney yesterday! 14 people I do believe ... 13 maybe?

Swiss:
2-0 Against Rbg Goblins
Game one, Tarmogoyf puts him on the defensive, bolt kills Wort, game goes easier from there.
Early on he Warren Weirdings me and I Misdirect it, turning his Lackey into two 1/1 turds.
Tarmogoyf puts him on the defensive, he gets Earwig Squad and finds 1 Pyroclasm in my deck, he laughs because
I have 2 cards in my hand, guess what they were haha. Pretty sure I end up Stifling Matron FTW

2-0 Against ITF
Wild game. I get countertop to stick before him, but I'm having trouble getting the correct numbers. I get Swans down.
I bolt Swans twice, I'm doing great, he manages Shackles through the counter wall. Takes Swans.
I get down Goyf, he gets ANOTHER shackles and takes it, too. He is at 12, 0 hand, I hit him with a Bolt (9) and Lightning Storm pitching 3 lands (0)
Don't remember game two as much, but I got what I needed to stick, countered a deed, gripped a deed, let explosives go, and Goyf was 6/7

2-1 Against Demon Stompy (kuma)
I'm pretty sure I lost game two, but I don't remember that well if it was game one or two, Graveborn and friends came over and beat face.
In the meantime Shriekmaws killed Swans and Goyf haha
Game one or two (haha) was back and forth, but he did a ton of damage to himself and Lightning Bolt sealed it up.
Game three was tempo tempo tempo on my end, kept a hand of Daze, Daze, Goose, Fetch, Goyf, Fetch, Brainstorm
Drew Dazes 3 and 4 within the first few turns, and Goyf and Goose smashed face while I Dazed everything I could.

2-0 Against TES
Game one, my opening hand was, Top, Counterbalance, FoW, Swans, Fetch, Forest, Island ... I kept.
Playing TES for so long, I knew how his plays would go at least, but I also know that turn one Top and turn two Counterbalance completely ruins their day.
It kept him down all game and Swans brought an Ancestral Recall and the win.
Game two, I get to side in my Stifles and Pyroclasms, taking out Swan combo.
My hand goes Daze, Daze, Stifle, Stifle, Fetch, Bolt, Pyroclasm ... I keep.
Turn one he Xantids, I bolt it. Turn two he Shushers, I clasm it. From then on in he loses his Gemstone mine and I find two gooses.


Top4:
2-1 Against a new-age WildfireStax (OneBigSquirrelGod)
Game one I lost. I couldn't counter the Blood Moon and Trinisphere came down, and I had lands!
But he was Wildfire-ing and Burning of Xinye-ing, and ended up killing me with 2x Rolling Earthquake (one at 8 and one at 7)
Game two I countered key spells and kept a Goyf on the table, after Rolling Earthquake killed my previous goose+goyf.
Game three, pretty much the same deal, but I had both of my basics, so moon wasn't really that bad.

Finals:
2-0 Against Rbg Goblins (same from round 1)
Insanely fun games, they lasted forever, but both ended because I was able to make Goyf eat his guys one by one.
Save bolts for Wort/Piledriver, and post-board remove 3x Swan, 3x Chain, 3x Counterbalance for 3x Pyroclasm, 2x Needle, 4x Stifle.


Verdict? I never comboed the whole time. But did I need to? No. Do I like knowing I can? Damn right!
Thresh with a combo finish, one of the most fun decks I've ever played.

Here's my list ...

// Lands
4 Volcanic Island
1 Flooded Strand
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta

// Creatures
3 Swans of Bryn Argoll
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose

// Spells
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
1 Misdirection
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Chain of Plasma
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Lightning Storm

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Stifle
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Pithing Needle

[Adan]

Here's my list ...

// Lands
4 Volcanic Island
1 Flooded Strand
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta

// Creatures
3 Swans of Bryn Argoll
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose

// Spells
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
1 Misdirection
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Chain of Plasma
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Lightning Storm

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Stifle
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Pithing Needle

Well done! Congratulations! Ha, you are playing Stifle in the SB! I just exchanged the Hydroblasts for Stifles because they are more versatile and still insane against Goblins.
No Predicts and no additional cantrips (Portents) look kinda strange to me, but it's still solid. Only the Misdirection seems to be crap, but how was it?

[yawg07]

Well done! Congratulations! Ha, you are playing Stifle in the SB! I just exchanged the Hydroblasts for Stifles because they are more versatile and still insane against Goblins.
No Predicts and no additional cantrips (Portents) look kinda strange to me, but it's still solid. Only the Misdirection seems to be crap, but how was it?
Misdirection was good and bad, I'm pretty sure it will be coming out, but I'm not sure for what just yet.
I'm not sure it really NEEDS the Portents, I mean, it's already running 4x BS, 4x Ponder, and 3x Top.
When you throw 8 fetches into the mix, it isn't that hard to find what you need.
For me to fit 2x Portent, I'd remove Misdirection and then I'd either have to drop the Daze/Goose/Land count by one and I think thats BAD.

You know one thing I noticed, though? Lightning Storm is an amazing finisher, even without the combo.
You can have 5-9 damage that they know nothing about, and you can protect it, too!

Also, yes I totally agree, Stifle over Hydro for sure. My friend John and I discussed a bit before the tourney and he brought up a few points about Stifle and I agreed, so in they went.
And also, whaddya know, my other friend John steps in with TES. haha perfect :D


Also, yes edit again, ever notice that people take a long time to decide whether or not to send Chain back at you if you use it as removal?

[Adan]

Misdirection was good and bad, I'm pretty sure it will be coming out, but I'm not sure for what just yet.
I'm not sure it really NEEDS the Portents, I mean, it's already running 4x BS, 4x Ponder, and 3x Top.
When you throw 8 fetches into the mix, it isn't that hard to find what you need.
For me to fit 2x Portent, I'd remove Misdirection and then I'd either have to drop the Daze/Goose/Land count by one and I think thats BAD.

Including 1 Portent as a 5th Ponder is also fine. ;-)

[Nihil Credo]

Congratulations on the win! On the list: was the lack of Tormod's Crypts in the sideboard a metagame choice? Loam.dec is easily winnable with the Swans combo, but I'd be scared of Ichorid without them.

Also, if you want to try Portent or Predict over Misdirection, there's no reason not to just play 1x - they don't get any better or worse in multiple.

EDIT: By the way, am I the only one still playing 2 Islands and Moon in the SB?

[yawg07]

Congratulations on the win! On the list: was the lack of Tormod's Crypts in the sideboard a metagame choice? Loam.dec is easily winnable with the Swans combo, but I'd be scared of Ichorid without them.

Also, if you want to try Portent or Predict over Misdirection, there's no reason not to just play 1x - they don't get any better or worse in multiple.

EDIT: By the way, am I the only one still playing 2 Islands and Moon in the SB?

Yes, right now in our meta, Tormod's Crypt is okay, but at the moment, Ichorid and grave decks have vanished.
Also Crypt isn't that useful against TES or anything like that. I know whenever people would board in Crypt when I play TES, I just shrug it off.

You guys make good points. I'd probably play Predict in that slot. I'll try it :D

Actually right now, I may squeeze Island #2 in somewhere. Being able to still do swans combo under a Moon effect is golden.


EDIT: Thanks for all the congrats, I'm really new to control decks, but MAN are they fun.

[moOnsteak]

EDIT: Thanks for all the congrats, I'm really new to control decks, but MAN are they fun.

Yeah, I never played Threshold before, only face them as testing partner or on tournament since I assume they are the most stable and powerful build in the format. But the entering of the swan combo make me excited to play it on the next tourney, even if I have to jump into the training ground in order to improve my skill. .

Ahh, also congratez for a great finish. .

[AngryTroll]

Which version of Red Thresh is actually better, a more traditional UGr Thresh/Canadian Thresh, or the Swan Thresh builds? I know the traditional builds are meta dependent, but in general, does adding the Swan combo improve the deck, or weaken it?

It seems like adding the combo requires 1 dead card, 3 sub-optimal creatures, and 3 sub-optimal burn spells. Would it be possibly to take out the Lightning Storm and the Chains of Plasma for 4 Chain Lightnings, or Magma Jets, or whatever burn spell should go in that spot? You lose the combo win, but you still get to play with Ancestral Recall and only have 3 sub-optimal creatures instead of 3 more sub-optimal burn spells and a dead card.

Is the combo valuable enough to be worth the dead cards, or would the deck be better with more efficient burn that can be Ancestral Recalled?

[Adan]

Which version of Red Thresh is actually better, a more traditional UGr Thresh/Canadian Thresh, or the Swan Thresh builds? I know the traditional builds are meta dependent, but in general, does adding the Swan combo improve the deck, or weaken it?

It improves the deck. Without the combo, there would be no reason to run UGr Threshold with Counterbalances because UGW can do everything better - in my opinion.
With the combo, it makes sense since you can stall the game with CBalance and slowroll until you have the combo. Since the deck's style is like a mishmash between tempo and control, it's also versatile enough to play hyper-aggressive beatdown (burn for reach) and Counterbalance as a disruption spell rather than a control-element. But this mish-mash could also be the weak spot of the deck, I don't know, but I'm already used to it.

But it's also possible that I'm hallucinating. Well, I just wanted to try to include it into UGr Threshold because the possibility to combo is kinda ridiculous. I also don't want to accept that I've wasted 20 bucks for my asian playset of Swans...


It seems like adding the combo requires 1 dead card, 3 sub-optimal creatures, and 3 sub-optimal burn spells.

This proves that you have never played it so far. The cards are quite good, even though they don't appear so.


Would it be possibly to take out the Lightning Storm and the Chains of Plasma for 4 Chain Lightnings, or Magma Jets, or whatever burn spell should go in that spot?

For our decks concept, Magma Jet, Chain Lightning and even Fire//Ice are terrible. What's wrong about Chain of Plasma? It's Chain Lightning with Instant Speed, except that they may copy it by discarding a card instead of paying RR.
And Chain Lightning sucks hard in combonation with Blood Moon which you MIGHT want to play in the SB because of metagame-reasons.


Is the combo valuable enough to be worth the dead cards, or would the deck be better with more efficient burn that can be Ancestral Recalled?

OMG, if the cards were really dead, how come I've burned out my opponents 4 times at Heidelberg tourney? Chain of Plasma is rearely copied and therefore as good as Incinerate (not that this would be relevant, but it's actually Incinerate that enables a instant-win combo).

Swans are not suboptimal. They are 4/3 Flying for 4 Mana and that's already a quite solid body with evasion.
The reason why I also wanted to include the combo was the following:

In the past, the UGR builds with Counterbalance here always tended to run Sea Drakes because they have the same stats, are pitchable to Force of Will and have more or less hidden synergy with Brainstorm (ninja tech!).

Swans actually fullfill the same role, except that they rather have synergy with all your burnspells rather than with Brainstorm and cost 1 more mana (in exchange, they don't bounce 2 of your lands).

And Lightning Storm is also not really a dead card. Sure, it's mediocre, but it can be hardcasted as well like the other burnspells and also enable the combowin. The only decks against which these cards truly suck are Loam-based decks.

[yawg07]

I highly agree.
In both testing AND in practice, the fact that Lightning Storm can deal 5+ damage at Instant speed for 3 mana is quite amazing.
Brainstorm into a couple of lands towards the end of the game? No problem.
Play Lightning Storm and drop those lands on it, game over.

Swans is the best support creature I have seen in a long time for XX/r builds of control.
Ancestral Recall (Lightning Bolt) is just as good in Legacy as it is in Vintage when you're in the middle of a control battle.

If your metagame is infested with control, I really think this is the deck to play.
Plus, sideboarding with this deck is usually REALLY easy, which I have to say, I enjoy very much.

[slyfer]

Why vs control? The whiter it is, the worst you are I think.... Humility, wrath, stp... You play swan and pass the turn I think...
Blood moon is good vs landstill? don't you use red elemental blast? :rolleyes:

[chokin]

UGr Thresh is an aggro-control deck amirite? Adding the Swans makes it aggro-control-combo :P

Adan sums up just about everything I wanted to say about Swans in the deck. It gives a strong reason to play UGr over UGw.

Lightning Storm kinda makes lategame Daze like a softcounter+shock. Even without a Chains, Bolt drawing 3 cards is really sick and gives you potential to draw into more burn or gain better card quailty.

[yawg07]

Why vs control? The whiter it is, the worst you are I think.... Humility, wrath, stp... You play swan and pass the turn I think...
Blood moon is good vs landstill? don't you use red elemental blast? :rolleyes:

My metagame has quite a lot of control/aggro-control variants in it.
This deck really slams every thing that isn't red.

StP? Umm ... Counter-Top is an easy fix for that.
Wrath and Humility are solved with FoW/Daze game one, and game two you get Krosan Grip/Needle for Humilty/E.Explosives/Deed.
Also, if the deck is too hard/too risky to try and combo against, just side it out!

I don't play moon, but I can see it being very good if you fetch enough basics (i.e. play 2nd Island)

And no, Red Elemental Blast has a strike against it because Pyroblast can be played to get Threshold in a pinch.

[Illissius]

What matchups does the Swan combo help you against? Aggro? Board control? Board control with low amounts of instant speed removal?

[Nihil Credo]

What matchups does the Swan combo help you against? Aggro? Board control? Board control with low amounts of instant speed removal?
Anything with lots of creature removal: basically you're OK with them getting rid of Mongeese and Tarmogoyf, while you save your Forces to protect the combo. Also, Chain of Plasma+Lightning Storm beats Fire/Ice here: easier to burn them out if they resolve a Humility or whatnot.

As for aggro, it can be better or worse depending on the meta: you become worse against burn (you *need* CounterTop, otherwise Swans are Force-fodder unless you are ready to combo, and Chains of Plasma suck when you're the control and they're not Hellbent), but better against fat, since you can just sit your Goyfs back in defence instead of trying to push them through - which may be impossible if you're at low life.

Interestingly, the most drastic improvement is against prison decks: you can completely ignore the combat step yet still win.

[Mental]

Anything with lots of creature removal: basically you're OK with them getting rid of Mongeese and Tarmogoyf, while you save your Forces to protect the combo. Also, Chain of Plasma+Lightning Storm beats Fire/Ice here: easier to burn them out if they resolve a Humility or whatnot.

As for aggro, it can be better or worse depending on the meta: you become worse against burn (you *need* CounterTop, otherwise Swans are Force-fodder unless you are ready to combo, and Chains of Plasma suck when you're the control and they're not Hellbent), but better against fat, since you can just sit your Goyfs back in defence instead of trying to push them through - which may be impossible if you're at low life.

Interestingly, the most drastic improvement is against prison decks: you can completely ignore the combat step yet still win.

It's also very good against Goblins. Instead of having to win, you just have to wait long enough to combo out. That's much easier to do.

[yawg07]

It's also very good against Goblins. Instead of having to win, you just have to wait long enough to combo out. That's much easier to do.

You gotta be careful, though, if they nail it with an Incinerator and draw 4+ cards, you will probably lose.
Against Goblins I sideboard like this ...

-3 Swan
-3 Chain
-3 Counterbalance

+2 Needle
+4 Stifle
+3 Pyroclasm

And then I just play Thresh like normal. Stifle on Matron/Ringleader is pretty damn powerful.
Even against Rbg Goblins, with their Earwig Squad/Wort, you have excellent games 2/3.

[Mental]

True, but that's almost never a problem as most Goblin builds are playing 1-2 Incinerators these days.

[Jujuhawk]

True, but that's almost never a problem as most Goblin builds are playing 1-2 Incinerators these days.

Most run 3 or 4, actually.

[yawg07]

True, but that's almost never a problem as most Goblin builds are playing 1-2 Incinerators these days.

This is also true. I have noticed them being less and less used.
Does Rbg Gobs even play them at all? I didn't notice any at all last tourney I was in.

[Mental]

This is also true. I have noticed them being less and less used.
Does Rbg Gobs even play them at all? I didn't notice any at all last tourney I was in.

I play 3 in my RGB build, but most other people play 1, I think.

[slyfer]

This deck cannot beat control with white.
Stp, humility (no out maindeck), and wish for pulse is game over.
Crucible - wasteland is game over.
It has so many weakness that I really think its not viable, the only viable UGr deck is the tempo with wasteland and stifle, because of tempo, so it means "no time for wish/pulse" or goodness.
I'm very disapointed with the results

[Adan]

This deck cannot beat control with white.
Stp, humility (no out maindeck), and wish for pulse is game over.
Crucible - wasteland is game over.
It has so many weakness that I really think its not viable, the only viable UGr deck is the tempo with wasteland and stifle, because of tempo, so it means "no time for wish/pulse" or goodness.
I'm very disapointed with the results

Jeesh...

First of all, yes, UWb landstill such as Clemens' build are a bad matchup for the deck.
Humility is a pain in the ass and nearly GG in game 1, but on the other side, there is a little advantage. Sweepers like WoG or EE-softlock buys the Landstill player time, but you can still put him into an defensive position by just resolving Swans. You can simply combo instead of playing straight-foward beatdown, because if you do so, you will most likely scoop to a well-timed WoG.

Why should the tempo variant be better than the Swans-build? Against the modern Landstill lists (i.e. Clemens/DIF), the manadenial-plan is obsolete because he will fetch basiclands. Keeping mana open fro Stifle is also not very smart since it makes you slower as well.

The main reason why red Threshold in general has always got a slight advantage over other variants against Landstill is simple: Burn. The fact that you can make virtual 20 or 24 damage (4 Bolt + Either 3/1 Chain-Storm or 4 Fire//Ice) without ever attacking is important against landstill. This is also supported with the critters. Burn = pressure and under soem cirumstances, it forces the opponent to handle things immediately, which makes Daze much more stronger.

It's obvious that you have to keep the above mentioned card off the table.

That's it for the flame-free part. On the other hand: Do some playtests, learn how to play it properly and THEN you might be able to distinguish which build might be better.

The statements "This deck can't beat control with white" and "Tempobuild is better because of TEMPO" don't express much competence or experience. According to them, everyone who wants to hate Threshold should play Rifter or Wombat again. T3h oldschOol.

Additionally, the above mentioned weaknesses might be true, but they are true for the tempo-variant as well, except that the tempo variant can be knocked out easier by Pulse of the Fields or sweepers while with SwanThresh, you can still combo him.
UWb landstill has also got a high basicland count, making the manadenial-plan obsolete. That's why Counterbalance is the more appropriate disruption piece against LS.
But that's only my theory, if I got time, I might do some testing with Clemens.

[yawg07]

In some testing on the internet I was playing against a guy who thought he had me with a Humility, I topped and flipped over Swans to CB.
He says, "lol i guess this wrath is no good either, you got combo?" I revealed Chain, Force, and Daze.
The most polite "Player Lost" I've ever gotten.

[Adan]

In some testing on the internet I was playing against a guy who thought he had me with a Humility, I topped and flipped over Swans to CB.
He says, "lol i guess this wrath is no good either, you got combo?" I revealed Chain, Force, and Daze.
The most polite "Player Lost" I've ever gotten.

Yes, I did the same with a Enchantress-player. I countered Humility and Moat with it... Orgasm guaranteed. I then only had to keep Confinement off the table and won via combo.

[Happy Gilmore]

What matchups does the Swan combo help you against? Aggro? Board control? Board control with low amounts of instant speed removal?

It doesn't help you much except when facing decks with abnormal numbers of large beefy creatures. In all honesty the extra burn is more useful than the Swan Combo.

I also highly recomend Wheel of Sun and Moon as the 1 of win condition. Less risky than all the other win conditions and consistant.

[Lone Signal]

Is Wheel of Sun and Moon supposed to be something else?

If not, walk me through...

[MULocke]

This deck cannot beat control with white.
Stp, humility (no out maindeck), and wish for pulse is game over.
Crucible - wasteland is game over.
It has so many weakness that I really think its not viable, the only viable UGr deck is the tempo with wasteland and stifle, because of tempo, so it means "no time for wish/pulse" or goodness.
I'm very disapointed with the results

Isn't this why the sb contains krosan grips, tormod's crypt, trygon predator, and red blasts? Also, the mana denial plan isn't good at all. They run 3-7 basics in addition to crucible. The wastes are great for taking out factory/academy ruins, and the stifles are great for EE and decree cycles, though. Honestly, the matchup is bad but not unwinnable by any means.

[yawg07]

Went to another local tourney and went 2-1-1 and got bumped out of finals by percentage points :rolleyes:

Round 1 - White Weenie - 1/2
Game 1: I get counter-top online and I combo out
Game 2: I can't burn off his creatures because they all have pro-red and I can't find a Goyf or a Goose until its too late
Game 3: Things are going very well and I'm about to combo off and bam here comes a 'geddon that I can't stop. :frown:

Round 2 - W/U Wizard Aggro - 1/1/1 (nihlistdeathtrip)
Game 1: He gets game one, but I can't remember what happened. He countered BOTH of my Counterbalances lol
Game 2: After a LONG drawn out battle of counterbalances and tops and force of wills, I get a goyf to stay on the table for the win
Game 3: Time was called upon the start of the match :tongue:

Round 3 - W/B Knights - 2/1
Game 1: I repeatedly kill Haakon and other knights and keep a few Goyfs on the table, get him to 3 and Chain him
Game 2: I misdirection his Hymn to Tourach, taking Therapy and Jitte or something, then his unstoppable Knight army overruns and I can't keep him down.
Game 3: Wow what a hand. Counterbalance, Top, Goyf, Goose, Goose, Fetch, Trop
I get my beatdown started and it is just too much coupled with counterbalance, I pull it out.

Round 4 - ITF - 2/0
Game 1: I combo off and he manages to flip Intuition into Lightning Storm. :/
Well, I've got one card left in deck and he is going to take my swans next turn.
I beat with swans, and chain him, he chains to the swans, and I chain back to him, he is at 4.
He takes my Swans and hits me with goyf and passes to me. I chain him. (he is at 1 now) he decides to copy it to his swans, I MISDIRECTION HIS COPY :D
Game 2: I had a counter for everything, and a grip for his deed. Tarmy went the distance.

Ugh then got bumped by like a percent or two :/
Ah well, I had fun and I still like the one of Misdirection, but it may change for Friday, we'll see.

[hugh1130]

so i am looking to put together the deck, dont have very much thresh experience so thought i come asking a few questions before i bought what i am missing.

i currently dont own much of the mana base, so i am looking to save some money by giving up some efficiency but i dont think that i will notice much of a difference.

the current fetchs i own are

4x wooded foothills
3x flooded strand

how would i build a mana base around that, also if i could go down to as few duals as possible to save on the $$

[yawg07]

Swan-Thresh Local Tourney Report! 4-1-1 Top 2 Split!

Round 1 - W/B Knights - 2/0
Game 1: Counter-top gets online and my guys bring the pain, simple game
Game 2: Counter-top gets online and it goes back and forth, his Dystopia annoying the shit out of me.
He drops to 7 and lets it die, I top and see Krosan Grip and put it second so I draw Daze.
I play Swans and pass. He plays Dystopia and I flip Grip into it.
He passes and I show him the Chain of Plasma, but I just attack with Swans and Bolt him.

Round 2 - Sensei/Sensei - 2/0 (stalkerzero)
Game 1: He mulls to 5 and has consistant Brainstorms/Ponders, but I get counter-top down and 2 Goyfs.
Game 2: I Pyroblast a Trinket Mage, but he still has one Top and finds another shortly. I get a Goyf down as a 4/5, and pass.
I get counter-top out, and he drops a trinket mage, I reveal Ponder with CB. I play mistake and tap volcanic to play stifle on the mage.
He counterspells and I cannot pyroblast with a trop. :tounge: He gets his helm and plays it. I cannot counter.
Now HE play mistakes and starts to combo, I reveal Ponder and counter the top.
I find more Goyfs and bring the pain.

Round 3 - Eva Green (mostly) - 0/2
Game 1: Ugh I had to mull and only had one land, plus I had to keep dodging land-destruction.
I got rid of his Nantuko Shade and my Goyf started the pain bringing. He resolves Tombstalker when I'm at 5 :sad:
Game 2: Back an forth on this one, my Krosan Grip countering a Choke with my CB, but I forgot to leave it on top and he Grips my CB.
After a while he gets a Tombstalker to resolve and crushes me. Le sigh

Round 4 - R/G Madness - 2/1
Game 1: I draw nothing but freaking land and he has his Anger/Mongrel/Fireblast way with me :(
Game 2: He draws nothing but land and I have my Goyf/Counter/Top way with him.
Game 3: Pretty amazing game, all over the place. Goyfs and things all over. Mongoose being untargetable is so good.
Although something happened one that neither of us noticed until later. I bolted his Gathan Raiders and he Fireblasted in response to get hellbent.
I countered the fireblast and we both were absent-minded, and his raiders went to yard. I still feel bad about it.

TOP 4
Round 1 - Enchantress - 2/0 (landstill101)
Game 1: We each play a land and pass. He gets a second one and plays argothian, I brainstorm and Daze.
He stays at 2 lands and I get Counter-Top and hit 4 lands. I play Swans and pass. He can't hit 2nd white mana for Runed Halo (I had 2cc on top anyhow)
and I Chain of Plasma Swans and combo off.
Game 2: He has personal matters to attend to and respectfully backs out. My hand was nuts (3 land, brainstorm, daze, chain, swan) and his was bad, so no big deal.

FINALS
Round 1 - Armageddon Stax w/red splash (OneBigSquirrelGod)
We decide to split since it is 12:30 haha


I played my same list but with Predict instead of Misdirection, I didn't like it.
I think I will keep Misdirection in, I like having FoW #5 in control matches and creature removal re-direction.

Won myself $22.50 in store cred and went home. All in all, a good night.

[Nihil Credo]

Good show! Do you remember how you sideboarded for each match?

[yawg07]

Good show! Do you remember how you sideboarded for each match?

I knew I forgot something! Lemme see here ...

Swiss
Against B/W Knights
Remove - 2x Ponder, 1x Predict
Put in - 3x Krosan Grip

Reason: In this match it is really good to have more 3-casters for CB-Top, especially since he boards in Dystopia.
If you've never played this before, you have NO idea how annoying Haakon can be, but one deck in the meta doesn't warrant SB Tormod's.

Against Sensei/Sensei
Remove - 3x Swans of Bryn-Argoll, 3x Chain of Plasma, 1x Lightning Storm, 4x Lightning Bolt
Put in - 2x Pithing Needle, 4x Stifle, 3x Pyroblast, 2x Krosan Grip

Reason: The combo is too slow for this match, and there is just SO MUCH hate in the SB for this deck.
Also the only creatures he runs, bolt is no good against, because all they have to do is hit play.

Against Eva-Green
I honestly don't remember what I did for this matchup, but whatever it was I'm pretty sure it was stupid.
I think I actually boarded out the combo ... which is a stupid idea, I dunno what I was thinking.
I don't know if all eva-green runs Deed, but this deck did. It was like ... Eva-Rock or something haha

Against R/G Madness
Remove - 3x Swans of Bryn-Agroll, 3x Chain of Plasma
Put in - 4x Stifle, 2x Pithing Needle

Reason: Lots of burn is bad for the swan combo, especially when they're boarding in Pyroblasts.
Stifle for the many fetches he ran, and Needle for Mongrel/Wasteland, although I ended up using it on Fanatic so I could kill a Goyf with Bolt.

Top 4
Against Enchantress
Remove - 4x Lightning Bolt, 1x Predict
Put in - 2x Pithing Needle, 3x Krosan Grip

Reason: Gotta get rid of problem Enchantments, so Grip comes in.
Needle is excellent against Words of War/Sterling Grove/Sacred Mesa, while Lightning Bolt does ... NOTHING! :D


If OneBigSquirrelGod and I would have played, I'd have done it like this
Against W/r Armageddon Stax
Remove - 4x Lightning Bolt, 1x Predict
Put in - 3x Krosan Grip, 2x Pithing Needle

Reason: Bolt can kill a Morphed Angel, but it more than likely won't due to several colorless artifacts.
Predict is "meh" pretty much everywhere, so I might as well squeeze that 3rd Grip in.
Needle says no Waste-Lock which is important for me to combo off.

This is the best build of White Stax I have ever seen. He and I used to test that deck ALL THE TIME.
Runed Halo and Oblivion Ring have had a lot of testing, and Halo comes out on top.
But the red splash lets you kill the creatures that always beat the shit out of you, I really think it is worth it.

[stalkerzero]

I'm a big fan of the combo addition after looking it over last night.

I think the best parts of it are how well the deck does without it and the large threat it does add when it's in.

After my one month anniversary of my return to Magic, I have to say I see why Thresh is called the best deck in the format.

[MULocke]

Alright, I'm gonna mix it up this week at my store's weekly legacy (if it happens) and play swans combo rather than canadian thresh. I feel like it'll be solid because counterbalance will also be a good meta card. Any tips on playing the swans variation? My meta is 2-3 thresh (1-2 canadian, one white), UWb Landstill, affinity/goblins/other aggro (not worried), a few combo (Breakfast, SI), and possibly a SuiBlack.

[Shugyosha]

Alright, I'm gonna mix it up this week at my store's weekly legacy (if it happens) and play swans combo rather than canadian thresh. I feel like it'll be solid because counterbalance will also be a good meta card. Any tips on playing the swans variation? My meta is 2-3 thresh (1-2 canadian, one white), UWb Landstill, affinity/goblins/other aggro (not worried), a few combo (Breakfast, SI), and possibly a SuiBlack.

Needle Maindeck seems to be good in your meta. Regardless of the Thresh variant you're playing. With Swanthresh it will be hard to make room for it though. But there should be 2-3 in the board at least.

[Nihil Credo]

When playing against UWb Landstill, keep those Swans on the top of your deck! Counterbalancing Humility, Wrath, and FoF is awesome, and usually unexpected. Return to Dust, too.

Also, against that meta, I'd strongly suggest Spell Snare for the free slots in the maindeck. Stealing tempo is crucial against aggro, and it's a good card in the control and mirror matchup, and combo too for that matter - ok, it's a great card all around ;)

[MULocke]

When playing against UWb Landstill, keep those Swans on the top of your deck! Counterbalancing Humility, Wrath, and FoF is awesome, and usually unexpected. Return to Dust, too.

Also, against that meta, I'd strongly suggest Spell Snare for the free slots in the maindeck. Stealing tempo is crucial against aggro, and it's a good card in the control and mirror matchup, and combo too for that matter - ok, it's a great card all around ;)

Open slots? I wasn't aware there were open slots in the list. Do you have a standard list?

Also, Needle seems okay, but it comes in for my already good MU's. It doesn't come in for affinity anyway because pyroclasm and krosan grip makes plenty of cards coming in. I guess it comes in in the SI and breakfast matchups, but mostly the same argument there. Landstill - for EE I'm assuming?

[Nihil Credo]

Open slots? I wasn't aware there were open slots in the list. Do you have a standard list?

18 lands

4 Mongoose
4 Goyf
3 Swans

4 Bstorm
4 Ponder
3 Top

4 Bolt
3 Chain

4 FoW
3 Cbalance
3 Daze

leaves two slots in the maindeck, one of which usually goes to the 4th Daze (although I personally don't like this with the combo in the deck, and I'm currently running 2x Spell Snare).

[yawg07]

My list runs Daze #4 and a Misdirection in the "slots"
I really think Daze is necessary in some metagames, especially ones with Goblins/Combo.
It is also great against the early Enchantress plays.

[Shugyosha]

Also, Needle seems okay, but it comes in for my already good MU's. It doesn't come in for affinity anyway because pyroclasm and krosan grip makes plenty of cards coming in. I guess it comes in in the SI and breakfast matchups, but mostly the same argument there. Landstill - for EE I'm assuming?

I suggested playing it main. You run half of a combo deck that needs 4 mana and at least one of them red to slowcombo and the other half of the deck is vulnerable to LD, too which Canadian Thresh/Landstill/SuiBlack/Goblins run. On top of that has alot of other targets against Landstill (Factories) and Affinity. Shutting of Vial also removes quite some pressure in the Goblin matchup... I think they are really that good maindeck in your meta.

[Jaiminho]

18 lands

4 Mongoose
4 Goyf
3 Swans

4 Bstorm
4 Ponder
3 Top

4 Bolt
3 Chain

4 FoW
3 Cbalance
3 Daze

leaves two slots in the maindeck, one of which usually goes to the 4th Daze (although I personally don't like this with the combo in the deck, and I'm currently running 2x Spell Snare).

That leaves 3 slots. You maybe forgot to include the combo wincon? I've never actually played with this deck, so I'm wondering if it's really needed, instead of keeping a hand that can win given the game state, which may not be always possible, but /shrug.

[Adan]

That leaves 3 slots. You maybe forgot to include the combo wincon? I've never actually played with this deck, so I'm wondering if it's really needed, instead of keeping a hand that can win given the game state, which may not be always possible, but /shrug.

Yes, he did forget Lightning Storm. And I would say it IS vital since you can't win against a swarm of creatures which are going to bash your head in during the next turn.

[MULocke]

I suggested playing it main. You run half of a combo deck that needs 4 mana and at least one of them red to slowcombo and the other half of the deck is vulnerable to LD, too which Canadian Thresh/Landstill/SuiBlack/Goblins run. On top of that has alot of other targets against Landstill (Factories) and Affinity. Shutting of Vial also removes quite some pressure in the Goblin matchup... I think they are really that good maindeck in your meta.

It's not really too vulnerable to LD because of no wastes in the swan version (I hope), which leaves room for a few basics. I'm running three to have room for blood moons in the SB to shut down bad manabases.

[arsenalpow]

http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=Ancient+Memory+Convention+38th

2 UGr lists made top 8 and both decks had a little bit of tech that I think might be useful to the tempo thresh builds. Chain Lightning

A c/b threshold list usually contains 8 sorceries (4 ponder / 4 thoughtseize) Which is 4 more sorceries that are contained in a typical tempo thresh list. One thing about tempo thresh (at least for me) is that the goyf is usually pretty small because we only put lands and instants in the yard. Sometimes we can pick off a creature with a bolt or fire//ice which gives the goyf some more food, but usually we have to rely on the opponent to drop other card types in the yard.

We could take the normal tempo list and make the following swap.

-4 fire//ice
+4 chain lightning

Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force Of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Rushing River (customizable, i like EE here sometimes as well)
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

Sorceries
4 Chain Lightning
4 Ponder

Lands
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

This change gives the deck a bit more reach, and it gives the goyf more food to chew on. Losing fire//ice would hurt because it really can be a useful card but i think the extra sorceries are more beneficial in the long run.

[Ironstickman]

But fire/ice is such a great tool!!!
it really gives the deck 'reach' by removing potential blockers or working on the mana denial strategy.
Anyway, perhaps you may want to do:
-1 spell snare
-1 fire/ice
+2 chain lightning.
I think this could suffice, 8 bolts can be too much. Do you really feel your goyf is small?, I mean, relying on the opponent to fill his graveyard is not that bad considering our countermagic.

Lately, I've been having problems with big creatures in Aggro-loam (didn't think it was that popular) so this is the sideboard I'm currently playing:

3 Hydroblast
3 Krosan grip
2 Tygron predator
2 Pyroclasm
3 Mind harness
2 Pyroblast

The harness works well against aggro-loam, survival,DS, RGbeats, the Rock and it can come in against mirror or other threshold variants. What do you think?

I am maindecking 2 pithing needles au lieu de bouncers as a cheap answer to survival, EE,pErnicious, etc.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Chain Lightning proposal

Neither build that Top8ed was a Canadian Thresh list. Fire/Ice is consistently one of the best cards in that deck every time I play it and the tradeoff for the point or two of damage simply is not worth it.

[arsenalpow]

I think 8 bolts + 2 bounce gives this deck tremendous reach. The bounce is there for those big creatures to allow you to punch through with that list bit of damage to finish off an opponent.

You only need to hit with a goyf about 3 times (4/5 goyf) and point 2 bolts at their head to drop them. Opponents usually do at least 2 dmg to themselves on fetchlands alone. Extra bolts remove attackers to make sure the goyfs or mongeese connect and the rest of the game you sit back and disrupt with permission and stifles.

I'll be testing this when i get home, I'll post later with some results.

[Aleksandr]

Are 18 lands enough? Even more, four of them do not give us blue mana.. and are meant to be sacrificed asap.
I know that we have extremely low curve. But with 14 :u: sources only, the deck will mulligan hard, imho.
Nonetheless, that idea is interesting and I gonna try it in the future..

[arsenalpow]

The deck never needs more than 3 mana to function, it can run at 1-2 with no real issues, the curve is quite low. The rivers are only used to finish up a game, they can remove those last couple blockers, bounce a humility or ghostly prison, or bounce a chalice and 3sphere to make sure the last couple bolts get in there.

[goobafish]

http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=Ancient+Memory+Convention+38th

2 UGr lists made top 8 and both decks had a little bit of tech that I think might be useful to the tempo thresh builds. Chain Lightning

A c/b threshold list usually contains 8 sorceries (4 ponder / 4 thoughtseize) Which is 4 more sorceries that are contained in a typical tempo thresh list. One thing about tempo thresh (at least for me) is that the goyf is usually pretty small because we only put lands and instants in the yard. Sometimes we can pick off a creature with a bolt or fire//ice which gives the goyf some more food, but usually we have to rely on the opponent to drop other card types in the yard.


Regarding the sorceries comment, I will refer you to a little part of my primer to answer that question.



Q: Are 4 sorceries enough to make your Tarmogoyf big?

A: Originally I didn’t play any sorceries with Tarmogoyf. The basis of this is that almost every legacy deck runs sorceries, and as such, they will have a sorcery of their own in their graveyard. I played Opt before Lorwyn, but Ponder is too good not to play. Cantrips are mana intensive, because instead of already having a business spell or counter in your hand, you need to invest mana trying to find them. I prefer to play more relevant cards than cantrips. I never have a problem getting Threshold because the counters this deck plays are all free or 1cc, meaning that you counter early-game spells and fill your graveyard quickly with a couple of cantrips, wastes, stifles, fetches and counters.

Also remember that your sorceries also feed their Goyfs.


As for Chain Lightning. I would not include this on the sole basis that it is a sorcery. This deck runs on so few lands that you need to keep all your mana available thought their turn to play counters, stifles and burn. Even with that being said, Ice is extremely useful as it can end the game. It provides mana denial, or taps down that huge finisher that is preventing you from swinging with Geese and Goyfs. The card has so many purposes, that I can't imagine cutting it for a simple burn spell.




Lately, I've been having problems with big creatures in Aggro-loam (didn't think it was that popular) so this is the sideboard I'm currently playing:

3 Mind harness

The harness works well against aggro-loam, survival,DS, RGbeats, the Rock and it can come in against mirror or other threshold variants. What do you think?

Thanks for the suggestion. I will test this, I think it has potential against Loam and possibly Dragon Stompy. I have not tested this card yet.

[MULocke]

Chain Lightning just doesn't fit this deck. As has been said before, Fire/Ice is amazingly versatile, and it can often provide CA with a 2 for 1 as well.

On another note, I've been playing the swans list at my local shop with a bit of success. There aren't too many good thresh matchups around (lots of stax variants and stiflenoughts running around), but swans and counterbalance help that somewhat. I most recently went 2-1, losing in a tough 3 to Dragon Stompy. I was wondering how/what you guys SB, as I never made it to be able to cast trygon predator, and even krosan grip was lackluster. I'm fairly sure I could've won, but I was never able to fetch the correct basic land before blood moon came down in games 2 and 3. Any help?

[arsenalpow]

Regarding the sorceries comment, I will refer you to a little part of my primer to answer that question.

<Primer Stuff>

As for Chain Lightning. I would not include this on the sole basis that it is a sorcery. This deck runs on so few lands that you need to keep all your mana available thought their turn to play counters, stifles and burn. Even with that being said, Ice is extremely useful as it can end the game. It provides mana denial, or taps down that huge finisher that is preventing you from swinging with Geese and Goyfs. The card has so many purposes, that I can't imagine cutting it for a simple burn spell.

I read the primer thoroughly and definitely took your analysis into consideration. Like i said in my original post, this is only an idea but i think it warrants testing. Fire//Ice is quite useful, we are in complete agreeance on that point, but every time i use it (fire//ice), i only point it at their dome. In my experience i think the change wouldn't make too much of a difference. Testing will tell.

I'm supposed to have a long test session this weekend with my team, my teammate (a hardcore goblins supporter) and I are going to run our decks through the gauntlet, against ichorid, loam, landstill varients, thresh varients, dreadstill, goblins, enchantress, stax, and some other combo decks.

I'll let you know how the change works out, if it sucks I can always go back to fire//ice

[arsenalpow]

So more than likely I'm going to play a version of threshold for GenCon, but its between thrash and the 4-color counterbalance top versions.

Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fire / Ice (Looking at Chain Lightning here possibly, still testing)
4 Force Of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Rushing River (Possibly Wipe Away or Engineered Explosives here)
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

Sorceries
4 Ponder

Lands
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

My board is nearly set but I'm not sure what else i want to add, i feel the blasts and crypts are a lock, as well as at least 2 grips.

Ancient Grudge
Engineered Explosives (if they don't make it to the main)
Pithing Needle
Pyroclasm
Krosan Grip (+1 more)

[Mental]

Depending on the meta, you could also play CB + Top, which is good against a lot of jank/combo/the Thrash mirror. It's probably not worth boarding in against thresh, where you only have room to bring in KGrip.

In general, if I were you, I would play:

+1 KGrip

It's just sooo useful, against almost every deck.

+2 Blue Elemental Blast

You want to beat Dragon Stompy. You really do.

+2 Pyroclasm

With BEB and Clasm, you should steamroll goblins even if it's built to beat Thresh. You may not even need the clasms, and if you don't, I'd play Needle in there place so that you have more against Landstill.

[Whit3 Ghost]

You beat Dragon Stompy anyway. That deck has serious issues with Force of Will and Tarmogoyf, not to mention manabase inconsistency. I'd put the matchup at a solid 60/40 in your favor. If you want to beat that deck, just replace KGrip with Trygon Predator. My current sideboard looks like this:
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trygon Predator
3 Pithing Needle
4 Red Blast
2 Pyroclasm

And under no circumstance do you cut Fire/Ice.

[MULocke]

You beat Dragon Stompy anyway. That deck has serious issues with Force of Will and Tarmogoyf, not to mention manabase inconsistency. I'd put the matchup at a solid 60/40 in your favor. If you want to beat that deck, just replace KGrip with Trygon Predator. My current sideboard looks like this:
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trygon Predator
3 Pithing Needle
4 Red Blast
2 Pyroclasm

And under no circumstance do you cut Fire/Ice.

The problem is that yu have force only. They have 3Sphere, Chalice, Blood Moon, etc and only need to resolve 1 or 2. As for trygon predator, he's great but he must resolve before blood moon comes online and the artifacts start slowing down you cantripping (for lands, forces, etc). Its not unwinnable, but also not a good one imo.

[arsenalpow]

My original configuration looked like this

4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge

I'm pretty high on ancient grudge, i love pyroclasm, and I always try to find room for engineered explosives...sooo difficult....

[Whit3 Ghost]

The problem is that yu have force only. They have 3Sphere, Chalice, Blood Moon, etc and only need to resolve 1 or 2. As for trygon predator, he's great but he must resolve before blood moon comes online and the artifacts start slowing down you cantripping (for lands, forces, etc). Its not unwinnable, but also not a good one imo.
You need one card in this matchup. Tarmogoyf. Dragon Stompy cannot handle a resolved Goyf without overcommiting to a rediculous degree. A lot of games come down to if you can handle the first disruption spell they play. If you can, you usually end up winning as your creatures are better than theirs.

[Whit3 Ghost]

My original configuration looked like this

4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge

I'm pretty high on ancient grudge, i love pyroclasm, and I always try to find room for engineered explosives...sooo difficult....
Why do you want to run Grudge? What does your meta look like?

[Nihil Credo]

Dragon Stompy cannot handle a resolved Goyf without overcommiting to a rediculous degree.
If by "overcommitting" you mean "drop a Rakdos Pit-Dragon" or "drop an Arc-Slogger" (sometimes Gathan Raiders, Taurean Mauler, and Umezawa's Jitte can also step up to the challenge), then sure.

[arsenalpow]

Its GenCon, its going to be decks to beat, mixed in with some other proven archetypes that have fallen by the wayside, with a touch of some homebrew stuff that isn't great, but good.

This decks poor matchups are

Some versions of landstill (fluctuates between 40-60% depending on the version)
Ichorid - They can definitely crush us game 1
Aggro Loam - They can generate more card advantage than we can control, we have to win quickly or stop their development
W Stax - chalice @ 1 = ow
Anything that can sustain an active counterbalance and top - Thresh mirror, some of the new control decks..

So the deck wants to stop opposing counterbalances/top, it needs an answer for ichorid, it needs to be able to slow down the development of longer game decks like landstill or aggro loam, and it needs to be able to get out of the lock pieces that stax likes to drop on us.

4 Tormod's Crypt - Can shore up the ichorid matchup and slow down aggro loam's draw mechanism (i said slow, not stop)
4 red blasts - Helps the mirror and helps curb the card advantage generated by longer game blue control decks (landstill)
3 Krosan Grip - Can kill counterbalance, survival, scary lockpieces from stax

The last 4 slots are between
ancient grudge
engineered explosives
pyroclasm
pithing needle

[goobafish]

The problem is that yu have force only. They have 3Sphere, Chalice, Blood Moon, etc and only need to resolve 1 or 2. As for trygon predator, he's great but he must resolve before blood moon comes online and the artifacts start slowing down you cantripping (for lands, forces, etc). Its not unwinnable, but also not a good one imo.

Keep in mind, once they try for the first one (usually with the help of a Tomb or City) it can be dazed, and the land can be wasted which buys you time to find more counters. A few cards you are more than happy to let resolve, like all the equipments, and the creatures. The real issue cards are Blood Moon and Chalice, Chalice can be Spell Snared, so you save your forces and dazes for the Moon. Personally, I have never had too much trouble with the matchup.

@arsenal
Run Pyroclasms. They are great against Goblins, Ichorid and TES. They are really important to have in your board in case you run into a Weenie aggro deck.

[MULocke]

Keep in mind, once they try for the first one (usually with the help of a Tomb or City) it can be dazed, and the land can be wasted which buys you time to find more counters. A few cards you are more than happy to let resolve, like all the equipments, and the creatures. The real issue cards are Blood Moon and Chalice, Chalice can be Spell Snared, so you save your forces and dazes for the Moon. Personally, I have never had too much trouble with the matchup.

@arsenal
Run Pyroclasms. They are great against Goblins, Ichorid and TES. They are really important to have in your board in case you run into a Weenie aggro deck.

This makes me think you've never played against the deck. I'm not trying to stir anything up, I'm just saying.

Daze is honestly terrible here. For one thing, they have 3-4 mana past turn 1, so it becomes useless there. Also, they run simian spirit guide. They can play around daze and even trick you into playing one by playing into it. Good players don't get nailed by daze. Also, they only have 8 nonbasics, play moon effects that neuter wasteland, and run artifact mana. Wasteland is okay, but not great by any means.

This makes your condition for victory a force (with the obligatory blue card), a spell snare (on the play only), a few tarmogoyfs, and the necessary lands. I know we play cantrips, but well it seems a bit unlikely.

Again: Dragon Stompy is not unwinnable by any means, but you're kidding yourself if you decide that it's favored for you.

[Whit3 Ghost]

If by "overcommitting" you mean "drop a Rakdos Pit-Dragon" or "drop an Arc-Slogger" (sometimes Gathan Raiders, Taurean Mauler, and Umezawa's Jitte can also step up to the challenge), then sure.
All of those cards cost RR and DStompy does not run the best manabase. All I'm saying is that resolving Tarmogoyf is the best card in that matchup and in most situations puts your opponent on the defensive.

[Whit3 Ghost]

This makes me think you've never played against the deck. I'm not trying to stir anything up, I'm just saying.

Daze is honestly terrible here. For one thing, they have 3-4 mana past turn 1, so it becomes useless there. Also, they run simian spirit guide. They can play around daze and even trick you into playing one by playing into it. Good players don't get nailed by daze. Also, they only have 8 nonbasics, play moon effects that neuter wasteland, and run artifact mana. Wasteland is okay, but not great by any means.

This makes your condition for victory a force (with the obligatory blue card), a spell snare (on the play only), a few tarmogoyfs, and the necessary lands. I know we play cantrips, but well it seems a bit unlikely.

Again: Dragon Stompy is not unwinnable by any means, but you're kidding yourself if you decide that it's favored for you.
You do know who you're talking to, right?
I tested the matchup with Dave, and the only way I was winning was resolving Blood Moon and I think maybe one other where a Gathan Raiders tricked him out of the game.

The matchup is even and if anything, you're favored. You're making up these scenarios where the Dragon Stompy player draws a consistant stream of disruption, mana and threats to back it up. In actual playtesting, this simply doesn't happen. Also, them being at 3-4 mana by turn 2 doesn't really matter much, especially when they are casting spells at 3-4 mana. Daze is still especially relevent.

[goobafish]

My testing has shown otherwise. Perhaps I haven't played the most competent Dragon Stompy players? I don't know. I am merely stating how the games pan out. You seem to be relying on a theoretical approach. I have had many players talk about "Playing Around Daze" but often, that isn't feasible. If you play around Daze the whole game, it is as if you are granting your opponent free Time Walks to drop and swing with Tarmogoyfs and Geese, to find cantrips to get the Forces they need to counter the important spells, and more opportunities to waste lands. As I stated in my primer, I find Dragon Stompy to be slightly favorable against an average player, in my personal testing. This has not changed.

[MULocke]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, then. One of the regulars at my store plays the deck almost all the time, and we test a lot. I just find that playing around daze is so convienent for them as SSG does it naturally, so you only get ~4 hard counters for moon effects, 3sphere, etc. I will admit red splash has a better MU than other thresh as magus of the moon is basically a blank, but I've still got it at 40-60 or so.

I've been working on my SB now for Gen-Con, and I'm not sure what the last few slots should be (thrash MD):

2 crypt
2 pyroclasm
2 krosan grip
4 redblasts
2 trygon predator
3 open slots

my open slots are between more crypts, another clasm, some EEs, and the 3rd trygon predator. any thoughts?

Also, is there any real reason for the change from the 1 wipe away and the 1 rushing river to 2 rivers?

[goobafish]

Also, is there any real reason for the change from the 1 wipe away and the 1 rushing river to 2 rivers?

Nope. I have since then changed back.

[Whit3 Ghost]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, then. One of the regulars at my store plays the deck almost all the time, and we test a lot. I just find that playing around daze is so convienent for them as SSG does it naturally, so you only get ~4 hard counters for moon effects, 3sphere, etc. I will admit red splash has a better MU than other thresh as magus of the moon is basically a blank, but I've still got it at 40-60 or so.

I've been working on my SB now for Gen-Con, and I'm not sure what the last few slots should be (thrash MD):

2 crypt
2 pyroclasm
2 krosan grip
4 redblasts
2 trygon predator
3 open slots

my open slots are between more crypts, another clasm, some EEs, and the 3rd trygon predator. any thoughts?

Also, is there any real reason for the change from the 1 wipe away and the 1 rushing river to 2 rivers?
2 Crypt, I'd run 3 Needle as well, over either the Grips or Predators, depending on what you predict the metagame is going to be.

[Adan]

Daze is honestly terrible here. For one thing, they have 3-4 mana past turn 1, so it becomes useless there.
Also, they run simian spirit guide. They can play around daze and even trick you into playing one by playing into it. Good players don't get nailed by daze. Also, they only have 8 nonbasics, play moon effects that neuter wasteland, and run artifact mana. Wasteland is okay, but not great by any means.

Well, Daze is obviously great in this matchup since DragonStompy tries to play a 3-Mana-Threat 1st Turn to make it hard for you from the beginning on.
It's actually the same as against Stax. Date is great since their start is always something like:

Ancient Tomb/City, Chalice

or

Ancient Tomb/City, Chrome Mox (Imprint SSG or another USEFUL card), Moon/Magus/3Sphere.

Daze shines here! They waste at least 4 handcards and Daze makes them all obsolete. Even if they resolve a Magus via pitching SSg, that would be already 5 handcards. But well, Magus is not the problem of this deck anyway.
But a Wasteland that wrecks 2 Mana simultaneously (Tomb/City) is good.


This makes your condition for victory a force (with the obligatory blue card), a spell snare (on the play only), a few tarmogoyfs, and the necessary lands. I know we play cantrips, but well it seems a bit unlikely.

That's how this kind of Threshold always wins...


Again: Dragon Stompy is not unwinnable by any means, but you're kidding yourself if you decide that it's favored for you.

But it's inconsistency is another factor that makes the matchup better for you. Threshold has at least got brianstorm-Ponder to ensure cardquality ti find the things mentioned above. Dragonstompy uses up it's hand resources pretty quick and then runs out of gas 8well, he can still topdeck you, but then I'd call it "bad luck").

If you are really afraid of Chalice-Aggro/Stax, you should try to include the Trygons into your Sideboard, they are acceptable against DS and kill Stax alone (watch out for Oblivion Rings, but I don't know whether Oblivion Rings are played as a regular cardchoice).

[Hana, The Deadly Flower]

If I expect a thresh meta, what should I have for sideboard or the best UG threshold build?

I'm thinking UGb?

And can people really afford to have wastelands in a 3 color deck?

[Citrus-God]

If I expect a thresh meta, what should I have for sideboard or the best UG threshold build?

I'm thinking UGb?

And can people really afford to have wastelands in a 3 color deck?

If you're boarding in against Thresh, board in additional threats like Shackles or Fledgling Dragons, Red Blasts and Krosan Grip. Also, your MVPs for these matches are Red Blasts and Grips. Also, a note; the way you play REB depends on the build of Thresh you're playing. If you're playing the Wasteland/Stifle version, hit cantrips with REB as well as Counterbalance and things like Control Magic, but when you get a chance, hit their cantrips before they draw into Top or a threat, and if you're playing the standard Counterbalance builds, use it to aid you in counter wars, hitting cards that gain the opponent massive card advantage like Predict, Fact or Fiction, and Counterbalance, and cards like Control Magic.

I wrote that horribly, and I'm too lazy to edit that post.

[Henrik]

ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshplayers, please help me choose the ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshdeck for me. I have played mainly two lists, a pretty standard UGw with CB/top, and stife-wasteland-trash. I am also considering trying 4c-ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh for a build with thoughtseize. When I ask what deck is the best to play, the most common response I get is "It all depends on your meta". I can accept this, I really don't expect any deck to be strictly better than another, in that case there wouldn't be so many ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshbuilds around.

BUT, please then explain to me for which meta each build is preferred. In short, describe to what meta you would bring each of these decks:

1 - UGw, controllish counter/top
2 - UGr trash
3- UGwb, much like the 1, but with thoughtseize

Thank you.

[Happy Gilmore]

Treshplayers, please help me choose the treshdeck for me. I have played mainly two lists, a pretty standard UGw with CB/top, and stife-wasteland-trash. I am also considering trying 4c-ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh for a build with thoughtseize. When I ask what deck is the best to play, the most common response I get is "It all depends on your meta". I can accept this, I really don't expect any deck to be strictly better than another, in that case there wouldn't be so many treshbuilds around.

BUT, please then explain to me for which meta each build is preferred. In short, describe to what meta you would bring each of these decks:

1 - UGw, controllish counter/top
2 - UGr trash
3- UGwb, much like the 1, but with thoughtseize

Thank you.

UGW is the worst of any thresh deck and should never be played in any situation.

UGR has two main viable variants, Canadian build and Moon Thresh. Depending on the metagame either could be good.

UGB has Thoughtseize, a major boon in almost every situation. But misses out on STP.

4 color should never be played imo, 5c is strictly better.

Go with UGR or 5c, and depending on the meta one might be better than the other.

[Henrik]

Thanks for the reply happy gilmore, but don't think you answered my question and/or misunderstood the purpose of my question. I KNOW it's metadependent and I KNOW what cards in each deck motivates that specific colorsplash. What I seek the answer to is in WHAT metagame each deck is prefered.

Some comments and clarifications:


UGW is the worst of any thresh deck and should never be played in any situation.

This is a really weird proclamation imho. I have had big success with UGw-lists and I know many others have as well. I consider it a really versatile and strong deck.



UGR has two main viable variants, Canadian build and Moon Thresh. Depending on the metagame either could be good.

It is the canadian build I play and refer to as "trash". Maybe that's wrong. It does not matter what we call it, in what kind of meta does it have most success?



UGB has Thoughtseize, a major boon in almost every situation. But misses out on STP.

I know this. In what meta is it prefered?



4 color should never be played imo, 5c is strictly better.

Again, in what meta?

[Happy Gilmore]

I would play 5c in every meta except those with a lot of control.

Strangly the life loss from various spells and City matters less in situations against agro and more against control matches where your opponent can take out half your life total in a couple of swings with some factories or a single Tarmogoyf.

I have always felt more prepared for control using UGR then any other build, the ability to burn out opponents is what makes this matchup winnable.

[Whit3 Ghost]

BUT, please then explain to me for which meta each build is preferred. In short, describe to what meta you would bring each of these decks:

1 - UGw, controllish counter/top
2 - UGr trash
3- UGwb, much like the 1, but with thoughtseize

Thank you.
Happy has the right idea.

Personally, I'd play Thrash in any metagame the only acception being 5c in a combo heavy metagame and even then, Thrash is still a great choice.

[Henrik]

Interesting thoughts.

I don't know if I agree with Happy on the 5c, I would say that that land- and loam-MU's, or any other deck with recursion in general, and of wastelands especially, is a really hard MU to win? Of course I haven't played 5c myself yet, so I should probably just take your word for it until I have.

I am very pleased with Trash/Canadian however, it has become my favorites of the lists I have tried. I am having problems facing Rock-decks with Trash though. Do you think 5c or another deck would perform better against rock, or does it not make any difference?

[Adan]

I would play 5c in every meta except those with a lot of control.

Funny, you actually have no clue.

UGW's main advantage is that it has got the best landstill matchup of all variants thanks to Needles, Gaddock Teeg and the Counterbalance Engine.

5color Threshold is structured like UGw, but misses Gaddock Teeg and Needles. Sure, Thoughtseize is also a great card against landstill since breaking Standstills with Thoughtseize is... cool, but it doesn't shut off the removalspells and/or winconditions.


I have always felt more prepared for control using UGR then any other build, the ability to burn out opponents is what makes this matchup winnable.

Yeah, at least you figured out the advantage of the Red Splash: You can actually choose the playrole of being aggro or controlish. But with the canadian build, you are too fixiated on being aggro which is the reason why I played it only once.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Yeah, at least you figured out the advantage of the Red Splash: You can actually choose the playrole of being aggro or controlish. But with the canadian build, you are too fixiated on being aggro which is the reason why I played it only once.
Actually, Canadian Thresh plays the control role incredibly well as the Stifle/Wasteland/Spell Snare package more then makes up for the lack of Countertop.

[Shugyosha]

Actually, Canadian Thresh plays the control role incredibly well as the Stifle/Wasteland/Spell Snare package more then makes up for the lack of Countertop.

You seem to be confused about the difference between control and disruption:

UGW is more controllish because you can the control the board much better than with other variants with Countertop and the most versatile removal in the format. In addition to that Thoughtseize helps as a preemtive measure for your game plan as well as giving you information about your opponents hand which is often underrated but very valuable with countertop.
Red with countertop simply trades some control elements for reach and more important another set of sideboard options.
With this in mind its not hard to see how 5c combines the best of all (for a price).

Stifle/Waste merely tries to disrupt the enemy. Disruption is temporary so you have to exploit it by finishing your enemy quickly. With every turn your disruption measures loose power. Stifling fetches becomes meaningless, Daze become bad instead of hardcounters. If you miss the window of opportunity for disruption at the beginning of the game you deck suddently become much worse than it usually is.

[Henrik]

But with the canadian build, you are too fixiated on being aggro which is the reason why I played it only once.

Ok. So what do you play now Adan, UGw or 5c?

[Adan]

Ok. So what do you play now Adan, UGw or 5c?

SwanThresh, but only for experimental reasons since my first build went pretty well.

Well, if you want to ask me which variant I'm going to play at the German Legacy Champs here... I could not give an answer yet. It's actually a gamble.

And it's fucking Clemens' fault!!!

UWb Cunning Landstill has established EVERYWHERE, even if I'd travel to America to visit you guys and play some tourney, I have to be prepared to play against it. Seriously, it became very popular. And the best Threshold variant to beat them would be either SwanThresh (reveal Swans for 4 + the combo) or UGw (Gaddock Teeg + CBalance = humiliation).

But I'm afraid of Ichorid (most retarded deck in existence) and Goblins at the same time.

So I guess I have to test with Clemens to see how the inclusion of Thoughtseize and the absence of Needles and Gaddock Teeg affect the Landstill matchup.

Additionally, I would have to test which Sideboardcards are effective against Ichorid (Crypts, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Jotun Grunt, Dueling Grounds, maybe even Propaganda, lol).

But at the moment, I like 5color threshold, but I would still love to know why Obfreeley has suddenly exchanged the 2 Portents he recommended with Predicts. They both serve a different role, but even though this sounds crazy, Portent allows you to play more aggressively (i.e. finding solutions or critters), supports Counterbalance a littlebit and maintains the strange manabase (it's solid, but still strange).

[Whit3 Ghost]

You seem to be confused about the difference between control and disruption:

Actually, I know exactly what I'm talking about.
The only matchup where you play the tempo role is against control decks.

Onto the creatures: 8 is enough, it allows you to play the control role, which this deck does very well, and finish off quickly with a couple of low casting cost big-powered creatures

8 Creatures is perfect for my controlish play style.

Both statements are made by goobafish, the co-creator of this deck. I think he knows the difference.

[Jaiminho]

trash

ThrashThrashThrashThrashThrash



The only matchup where you play the tempo role is against control decks.

Just wanted to add a bit to his point. Every tempo deck relies on disrupting slower decks and making them even slower. If you are playing against a deck that estabilishes its game plan very quickly, you cannot keep on playing Stifle-Waste. An example of this is is Aether Vial. Although they have not dropped a real threat, Vial will screw your tempo disrupting spells immensely.

[Shugyosha]

Actually, I know exactly what I'm talking about.
The only matchup where you play the tempo role is against control decks.

Be it the co-founder of the deck or you. Preventing spells from being played for a limited amount of time by attacking the mana base is disruption, not control.

Only running 8 creatures and killing fast doesn't contradict itself. You only need 8 creatures because you don't need them early and after you successfully disrupted your opponents mana base you just drop creature(s) and get them through while they are trying to recover. Or do you want to tell me that the deck can control the board well into the lategame consistently?


Just wanted to add a bit to his point. Every tempo deck relies on disrupting slower decks and making them even slower. If you are playing against a deck that estabilishes its game plan very quickly, you cannot keep on playing Stifle-Waste. An example of this is is Aether Vial. Although they have not dropped a real threat, Vial will screw your tempo disrupting spells immensely.

Well if your opponent drops a Vial and he doesn't play goblins you can still use your stifles on said Vial. It at least buys some time to adjust your role to the situation. Also Wastelands can hinder them from playing non-creature spells.
Besides Vial I don't see that many competitive decks that are not slowed down by stifle on fetch on turn 1 whether it is Goyfsligh or Landstill. Even Aggro Loam can be caught off guard rarely if they keep a shitty hand.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Be it the co-founder of the deck or you. Preventing spells from being played for a limited amount of time by attacking the mana base is disruption, not control.

Only running 8 creatures and killing fast doesn't contradict itself. You only need 8 creatures because you don't need them early and after you successfully disrupted your opponents mana base you just drop creature(s) and get them through while they are trying to recover. Or do you want to tell me that the deck can control the board well into the lategame consistently?
The deck isn't a board control deck. No Threshold list can perfectly control the board into the lategame like ITF and Landstill can. However your lategame is just as good, if not better than that of any other Threshold list.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Adan, if Gaddock Teeg really is the bee's knees against Landstill, you can certainly board him in 5c Threshold. You're... allowed.

We cut the Portents for Predicts because we wanted to fit another way to generate card advantage into the deck. Our results with the change have been mixed. You're absolutely right that Portent helps stabilize the manabase, and is an all-around fantastic card, so it may be correct to keep them in.

The Predicts work better than a single Fact or Fiction, though!


I certainly recommend 5c Thresh to Henrik. I agree with Happy that it is superior to other builds in almost any metagame. The only other variant I would consider is Moon Thresh, which I would play if I knew that Blood Moon would be effective (basically, this means a sea of 4-color control decks).

[Henrik]

But at the moment, I like 5color threshold



I certainly recommend 5c Thresh to Henrik.


Cool, thank you for concrete recommendations. I will try it soon in the next local tourney.

[yawg07]

Sorry I haven't been reporting lately. I've just been really busy.
I've won a few more shop tourneys with Swan Thresh, usually being in the Top 2 with some Dreadnought variant.
Last night I was actually Top 2 with some weird U/R Man-Land Stompy-Tempo build, and he needed to leave so we split in my favor.

Swan-Thresh is so controlling and so consistent, it pretty much always does what it is supposed to do ... win with Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance.
But it can combo! lol I'd say I combo in maybe 10-15% of my matches, just because a lot of the time you don't need to.
But damn, it is so great knowing you CAN. Because sometimes a huge horde of creatures or something you cannot stop are coming at you and Swan is your way out.

And I still play the one-of Misdirection, it has been so good to me, you rarely need it, but when you do, its there for you.
It is a ticket to a win against other Thresh lists, too. When there's a Goyf stand-off and they try to StP yours, Misdirection is the best spell you can play.
Same goes for when they try to get rid of your swan. I've Misdirected Warren Weirdings even.
He had a Lackey and I had a Goyf. But I wanted to start attacking, so I MisD the Weirding so now he has two 1/1s that do nothing. Swing!

[arsenalpow]

played thrash at gencon, i top 4ed the first prelim with a fairly stock list with a slight tweak

i took the stock thrash list and did this

-1 wipe away
+1 island

board was
4 tormod's crypt
3 krosan grip
2 pithing needle
2 pyroblast
2 red elemental blast
2 pyroclasm

I don't know if wipe away was the correct card to cut but i do know that the 1 basic was tremendous all weekend, it allowed me to get out of blood moon by being able to continue cantripping into my rushing river, it was golden in the thrash mirror, and it was also solid against landstill

my board for the champs changed into
3 krosan grip
3 pithing needle
2 pyroblast
2 red elemental blast
2 engineered explosives
2 trygon predator

From extensive play I know the deck needs at least 1 basic island. Im debating if the correct card to cut is wipe away or wasteland, those seem to be the 2 best candidates

The blasts in the board were absolutely the nuts, and the trygon predator was a last minute addition that was stellar as well

[MULocke]

Is one basic island really enough to do a whole lot? I know it gives you access to blue mana under moon effects, but unless you manage to find your one-of rushing river, that single blue source is all you get. Yes we run cantrips, but finding a one-of is hard, especially when blood moon is often followed or preceded by chalice for 1. I like the idea as a bit of resiliency, but I judt don't feel it's necessary. I had too many times this weekend where I just ripped lands in topdecking mode, and it always seems to come down to topdecking in the thresh mirror (so you're a bit worse off). Anyway, if it works I would suggest trying it in waste #4's slot to keep the build running smoothly at 18 lands, which I feel is correct.

On a side note, I was the other player who top4'd that first prelim. Sadly, I was not happy at all with my play in the main event and went 2-2 drop losing to goblins and the top8 elf list. I absolutely agree about the red blasts, but I've yet to have to sb predator in while in a tournament setting. I'm going to leave it in until it proves itself to me one way or the other.

[chokin]

If you are having troubles with Blood Moon and Magus, couldn't you run less Volcanic Islands for some basic Islands? Basically, mimic Moon Thresh's manabase with Wasteland. Magus is obviously less of an issue since you can burn it(unless there's a 3Sphere or CotV@1).

3 Delta
3 Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Island
3 Wasteland
2 Volcanic Island

The problem with a singleton Island is when they drop a Moon on turn 1, before you can even fetch for it.

I don't know though, I don't play Thrash enough to know if 3 Islands stops the deck from working properly.

[Adan]

If you are having troubles with Blood Moon and Magus, couldn't you run less Volcanic Islands for some basic Islands? Basically, mimic Moon Thresh's manabase with Wasteland. Magus is obviously less of an issue since you can burn it(unless there's a 3Sphere or CotV@1).

MoonThresh-Manabase + Wastelands = the suck.

You will be offcolor most of the time if you do so.

And actually, in his latest list, goobafish runs 2 Rushing River, which i also really like since it can take dead Wastelands and turn them into huge speedadvantage.

And postboard, you will maybe have some Blue Elemental Blasts to deal with Moon (this really depends on the SB).

[arsenalpow]

actually gooba said that he switched back to the 1/1 split with wipe away and rushing river.

The 1 basic island helped a ton for me, if they dont get a turn 1 moon or chalice at 1, you will have an opportunity to get into the game before you get locked out permanently.

[Ironstickman]

My manabase for tempo list is:

2 polluted
2 flooded
2 Wooded
3 Volcanic
4 Tropical
4 Wasteland
1 Island

I feel you really shouldn't take off any wastelands since they are crucial for your disruptive strategy.
Having more than one island in play really sucks and you'll certainly be colour-screwed. Playing one island is sufficent to deal with moon effects, you must only be careful to leave a fetchland to search it in response (obv not the foothills). I run 3 Hydroblast and 2 EE in the sideboard , so blood moon and chalice can be dealed with more efficiently than bouncing preboard.

[kabal]

My manabase for tempo list is:

2 polluted
2 flooded
2 Wooded
3 Volcanic
4 Tropical
4 Wasteland
1 Island


Why even run foothills, just go 3/3 on your other fetches.

[Ironstickman]

True...XD
I guess that since it is a slight/recent/quick change towards these matchups I hadn't looked at it too carefully. Needle is not really an excuse for not playing the 3/3 split of island fetchlands anyway.
thanks!

[Adan]

18 lands

4 Mongoose
4 Goyf
3 Swans

4 Bstorm
4 Ponder
3 Top

4 Bolt
3 Chain

4 FoW
3 Cbalance
3 Daze

leaves two slots in the maindeck, one of which usually goes to the 4th Daze (although I personally don't like this with the combo in the deck, and I'm currently running 2x Spell Snare).

EEEK, -1 Land, +1 Daze!!!

In those 2 slots, I either run 2 Portent or 2 Predict. I like them both.

By the way, you forgot Lightning Storm as well.

[yawg07]

I run Daze #4 and Misdirection is those two slots and I have been EXTREMELY pleased with the results.
We have a very control heavy meta around here and having FoW #5 for counter-wars is SO GOOD.
Also, when playing against Death & Taxes and you cant move their StP to the only creature you can't kill directly (Silver Knight) that's pretty good, too.
I wouldn't run more than one, though. It is great when you see it, but if you don't no biggie.

Basically I see Misdirection as another way to protect Swan if you are comboing.
Whether you are moving their StP/Vindicate/whatever to your Goyf or one of their guys, or if it just FoW#5 for their FoW, it is great.



Anyhow! I played in a 19-man Tourney last night, made Top 2 and split with the 42-Land player. :D
In the Top4 I even had a mirror match, and we are talking literally card for card mirror match.
Got him 2-0 ! Combo game one, Goyfs + Burned him out with Lightning Storm game 2
I'll post some sort of a report when I get some more time.

[Mental]

Hey guys, what's the standard moon thresh list these days? I assume it plays 3 Magus MD instead of Blood Moon, and has no Fledgling Dragons. Anyone want to help me out?

[aDraeL]

Hi guys, just want to ask about the basic game plan vs aggro-loam? I haven't encountered them yet but I want to be prepared when that time comes, at least theoretically.

I'm running a gro-thrash build and topped a 26-man tournament with it. I included the dryad firstly because of jotun grunts that are very prevalent in our meta, and honestly because she is so fun to play hehe :wink:

Thanks.

[Whit3 Ghost]

I'm going to assume you're playing some number of Stifles and Wastelands by your lack of a decklist. So with that assumption being made, Agro-Loam is not a good matchup. Their creatures are usually bigger than yours, Assault is a pain in the ass and they have recurring Wastelands if it goes to the lategame. Basically I would advise you to attack their manabase and force them to walk things like Terravore, Assault and Crusher into Daze. Save Bolts for Goyf stalemates or Crushers. Try to limit their resolution of Loam however you can. Postboard, bring in Crypts to mess with Loam.

[aDraeL]

thanks. my list is basically thrash save for

-1 wasteland (i only own 3 :frown:)
-1 spell snare
-1 fire/ice
-1 wipe away
+3 quirion dryad
+1 rushing river

im still trying to fit in the 4th snare in main deck.

[kiwi]

I think that play UGR Threshold in a metagame full of Aggro Loam cant be a suicide, the best cards for Threshold for defeating aggro loam are Wheel of sun and moon and Mind harness, including if you hope tons of aggro loam you can play 2 mind harness in main deck.

[Adan]

I think that play UGR Threshold in a metagame full of Aggro Loam cant be a suicide, the best cards for Threshold for defeating aggro loam are Wheel of sun and moon and Mind harness, including if you hope tons of aggro loam you can play 2 mind harness in main deck.

The matchup won't get better, Aggroloam plays cards like Chalice and Blood Moon as well. And their creatures are all bigger than your's.

They have solutions for Wheel of Sun and Moon as well: Burning Wish.

Let's take a look at Christian Hangel's list who won this month's Hassloch event:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19217

4 Chalice, 11 creatures which are equal to/bigger than your creatures, Burning Wish for everything, Devastating Dreams to annihilate your whole board...
There are no Blood Moons in that list, but it still kicks the shit out of Thrash.

[Nihil Credo]

As you may know, I won the Source tournament with Swan/Moon Thresh. The report is here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10936).

[Dark_Cynic87]

So I like the list I run, but it's not a CB list, and I'd like at least a sample (but well-built) UGr CounterTop Thresh list so that I can make the appropriate changes to my build.

My build:

Creatures-10
4x Goyf
4x Mongoose
2x Trygon Predator

Spells-32
4x FoW
4x Daze
4x Stifle
2x Spell Snare
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Fire//Ice
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
2x Rushing River

Land--18
2x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
2x Wooded Foothills
4x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland
1x Island

Pretty basic, although if Goblins get any more popular, or beat my ass one more time, I'm dropping the Rushing Rivers for Pyroclasms. I'm about sick of the little green bastards. Either that or Goblin Pyromancer in place of the Predators, lol.

So, any idea on what to drop out of my list if I were to go Counterbalance/Top route? I'm just tired of not doing so hot against Landstill, and I'm thinking I'd do better with CB. I know that people have mixed feelings as to how well CB performs in this particular matchup, but I think it's GOT to be better with it. Then I could save my forces and whatnot for what my CB can't hit (read: Humility, Deed, Wish OR FoF, etc.). Stifle is good against UWB or UWx Landstill, and it helps a LOT in this matchup. It's so beautiful.

Is there a Threshold list that runs 'Nought? Has anyone thought about doing something like this? LMK...

Thanks for the help ahead of time.

Pce,

--DC

[Citrus-God]

@Dark_Cynic87: If you want to go towards the Counterbalance route, I'd just recommend that you drop Red completely unless you want to play 5c Thresh. Moon Thresh isn't so hot right now, but Swan Thresh, however, might be something you should look into if you want to play Counterbalance and Red. I lack experience with Swan Thresh, so I wouldn't know what to think of it.

If you have trouble against Goblins, play anti-Needle cards like Krosan Grips, Pithing Needles, and/or Ancient Grudge. Pyroclasms are really good too, and are also amazing against Ichorid. Sadly, Ichorid might be dying, and the rise of Goyf Sligh is on the rise. This will mean lots of Price of Progress and Figure of Destinies. You could replace the Pyroclasms with Hydroblasts, which help your Dragon Stompy match-up, Goyf Sligh match-up, improve your Aggro Loam match-up, and have a decent Goblins match-up.

[MULocke]

I've been playing swan thresh for most of the summer, and it plays very nicely. You get plenty of burn plus counter/top to lock out aggro, and you get an extra threat vs control. I use the moon thresh mana base (4 delta, 4 foothills, 4 trop, 3 volcanic, 2 island, 1 forest) and sb some moon effects. I've been able to slaughter decks like 4c Landstill this way, and I have resilience against the dragon stompy decks and other manabase-hating decks in the meta. It's a nice change of pace, and can do very well.

Edit: @Dark Cynic: You want to change your manabase to 6 blue fetches, I think. Right now, the foothills can't get the basic island. AS for dreadnought, it seems too inconsistent for a deck that wins with its consistency. Maybe in the sb for the MUs where stifle isn't as useful?

[Dark_Cynic87]

Maybe I am just wanting Swan Thresh. I didn't like the combo, but that was when I very first picked up the deck, at GenCon. I suppose I could try it again. Also, I didn't know an exact decklist, so I just Left Swans in for Ancestral abilities and flying over shit.

Could I see your/a SwanThresh list? It'd be helpful, as I have no clue what to do to get to Swan Thresh. I don't know if I'll go the moon route just yet as I play against Dragon Stompy and Ichorid, both matchups where it's damn near useless. I'll use a Moon-Ready manabase, but not Moons.

Switched my manabase to 6x Blue Fetches (3/3 split). I'd just seen a list I liked and it ran fetches at 2/2/2 and figured it was for against needles or something. I was/am relatively new to the list and am not completely up to speed on how people combat it. I figured that attacking the manabase might have been a strategy used by some common list. I was clueless. Now I see the guy probably just didn't have the blue fetches or something.

LMK and Pce,

--DC

[MULocke]

Maybe I am just wanting Swan Thresh. I didn't like the combo, but that was when I very first picked up the deck, at GenCon. I suppose I could try it again. Also, I didn't know an exact decklist, so I just Left Swans in for Ancestral abilities and flying over shit.

Could I see your/a SwanThresh list? It'd be helpful, as I have no clue what to do to get to Swan Thresh. I don't know if I'll go the moon route just yet as I play against Dragon Stompy and Ichorid, both matchups where it's damn near useless. I'll use a Moon-Ready manabase, but not Moons.

Switched my manabase to 6x Blue Fetches (3/3 split). I'd just seen a list I liked and it ran fetches at 2/2/2 and figured it was for against needles or something. I was/am relatively new to the list and am not completely up to speed on how people combat it. I figured that attacking the manabase might have been a strategy used by some common list. I was clueless. Now I see the guy probably just didn't have the blue fetches or something.

LMK and Pce,

--DC

No, the guy was playing no basic islands, so all 3 different fetches could find every land. You run a basic island, so you need fetches that get islands so you can find it. My swan list is this:

2 Flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 wooded foothills
4 tropical island
3 volcanic island
2 island
1 forest

4 nimble mongoose
4 goyf
3 swans

4 force
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 counterbalance
3 top
4 lightning bolt
3 chain of plasma
1 lightning storm
3 daze
2 spell snare (these are open slots that are metagame calls)

sb:
EE, pyroclasm, grips, blue/red blasts, crypts, magus of the / blood moon

[Dark_Cynic87]

No Stifle or Fire//Ice? Do you miss it? Does 3x Chain feel like the right number (I always thought people used 2x)? I don't mean to question, I'm just trying to get comfortable with it. How often does the combo kill come into play? Is it the normal way of winning? How often does it win vs. a Goyf/Goose win?

What's a good combatant vs. Ichorid and Dragon Stompy for the 2x Spell Snare Slot? I realize that Spell Snare is good vs. CotV and Jitte, but virtually useless vs. Ichorid (these are my two most common matchups here). I also play against Spring Tide, burn and a Zoo build, but the top 2 are DS and Ichorid.

Thanks for the list. I think I'll give it a go. Also, can anyone tell me the difference in the terms "thresh" and "thrash"?

Pce,

--DC

[raharu]

No Stifle or Fire//Ice? Do you miss it? Does 3x Chain feel like the right number (I always thought people used 2x)? I don't mean to question, I'm just trying to get comfortable with it. How often does the combo kill come into play? Is it the normal way of winning? How often does it win vs. a Goyf/Goose win?

What's a good combatant vs. Ichorid and Dragon Stompy for the 2x Spell Snare Slot? I realize that Spell Snare is good vs. CotV and Jitte, but virtually useless vs. Ichorid (these are my two most common matchups here). I also play against Spring Tide, burn and a Zoo build, but the top 2 are DS and Ichorid.

Thanks for the list. I think I'll give it a go. Also, can anyone tell me the difference in the terms "thresh" and "thrash"?

Pce,

--DC
Thresh: typical threshold lists, generally of the 'oldschool', counterbalance, moon, and swan variety.

Thrash: Stifle-Waste tempo thresh.

[Avatar of Light]

Does 3x Chain feel like the right number (I always thought people used 2x)? I don't mean to question, I'm just trying to get comfortable with it. How often does the combo kill come into play? Is it the normal way of winning? How often does it win vs. a Goyf/Goose win?

The combo is there really to just give you that "Oops, I win" factor. The combo doesn't go off that often, and sometimes Swans is just a 4/3 with evasion or FoW food. Most wins are just beats + burn while countering threats. 3x Chain is good because 24 points of burn MD gives you more reach. I've killed people with domed Chain well there's a standstill creature-wise. I don't have enough experience with the deck to give you a ratio of combo vs beats wins. Nihil should chime in here.

[thefreakaccident]

So... I have been playing a carbon copy of Nihil's Swan thresh for like a couple days now (got bored of my current project)... and it seems rather good.

I have a couple questions though, that hopefully someone here can answer for me:

1. A resolved counterbalance, the only out in the MD is to either counter it or the top... against another thresh player, this is a loosing battle. Has anyone considered a few bounce spells/grips/whathaveyou to stop this in the MD?


2. Ichorid = extremely bad times... I know that this has always been so for red threshold, however, is there a way to remedy this aside from the obvious (play something else)?

3. Swan, a two of or three of? I have been having mixed feelings, as I always have an extra one to spare, which is sometimes a hassle, and sometimes a blessing.


Suggestions/answers would be appreciated!

[Mister Agent]

Swans Thresh
By Kevin Liu
Influenced By Nihil Credo

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [MR] Forest (3)
3 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [A] Tropical Island
2 [RAV] Island (2)

// Creatures
2 [SHM] Swans of Bryn Argoll
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose

// Spells
3 [NE] Daze
2 [U] Lightning Bolt
3 [ON] Chain of Plasma
1 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [OD] Predict
2 [PS] Rushing River
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [CS] Counterbalance
1 [CS] Lightning Storm

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 3 [OV] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

I basically replaced blood moon/ruination with price of progress to punish 3-5 color decks for reaching. With several fetchlands and only five dual lands, I imagine playing a resolved price of progress wouldn't hurt too bad.

The singleton disrupting shoal interacts like a 5th force of will which can come in handy in matchups. It's been testing smoothly so far but I might replace it with something else later on like for maybe a 3rd predict or a 4th ponder.

Rushing river can be useful in the mirror since it bounces powerful critters and as well as temporarily removing a threshold diminishing enchantment can do wonders as well.

Obviously, hydroblast serves as a utilizing purpose against aggro loam like countering their burning wishes and devastating dreams can be huge.

As for engineered explosives they can also help in the mirror but I am still contemplating if they are actually main deck worthy.

[Adan]

Swans Thresh
By Kevin Liu
Influenced By Nihil Credo

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [MR] Forest (3)
3 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [A] Tropical Island
2 [RAV] Island (2)

// Creatures
2 [SHM] Swans of Bryn Argoll
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose

// Spells
3 [NE] Daze
2 [U] Lightning Bolt
3 [ON] Chain of Plasma
1 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [OD] Predict
2 [PS] Rushing River
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [CS] Counterbalance
1 [CS] Lightning Storm

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 3 [OV] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

I don't know where to begin:

1) The Manabase: O.K., you are playing 2 Islands and a Forest which will make you less vulnerable against Moon-Effects, so why are you not playing them in the SB? (Magus and/or Moon)

2) The 2 Swans: I'd raise them to 3 as they are a good beater as well and turns your Burnspells into CA.

3) 3 Daze, 1 Shoal: O, thats possible, but the last time I used to play that constellation was.. 2 years before where you really had to counter Aether Vial because Goblins was the most played deck in Legacy at that time. I guess I simply have a different approach on the right number of Daze (I'd always play 4), but I'd kick that Shoal for at least a 4th Ponder.

4) Ponder: Play 4!!! Ponder is the card that gave Threshold a lot more consistency and it allows you to play aggressive by finding critters which you can play in the same turn (Portent can't do that), "tutor" for Burnspells and finding combopieces. It may sound ridiculous that I emphasize how important Ponder is to Threshold, but it is vital to have more consistency.

5) Rushing River and Lightning Bolt: I don't really like the 2/2 split-configuration since this falsifies the deck's concept. I see you would like to be more tempo-ish, but this split can't be a solution since you won't be able to switch between 2 roles efficiently (aggro-role <-> control-role).

That is also what I like about the deck: You can often choose which role you want to play, whether you simply play critters and beat your opponent down altogether with Burn to the dome or simply out-control him with Counterbalance.

The Explosives seem to be ok, I don't play them since I don't have enough space for them. I'd stick to Nihil's list (my list looks like the same anyway, except that he's playing 2 Spell Snare instead of 2 Predict).

My list looks like this:

// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [A] Island (1)
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
3 [SHM] Swans of Bryn Argoll
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [ON] Chain of Plasma
1 [CS] Lightning Storm
2 [OD] Predict

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast

-> Different Manabase, -1 Land, +1 Daze, -2 Spell Snare, +2 Predict.

[Nihil Credo]

1. A resolved counterbalance, the only out in the MD is to either counter it or the top... against another thresh player, this is a loosing battle. Has anyone considered a few bounce spells/grips/whathaveyou to stop this in the MD?

There are only a few customizable slots in the MD: I picked Spell Snare for precisely this reason - a flexible tool that also improves your chances in the Counterbalance war. Your maindeck is about as prepared for that fight as the average Threshold lists.

Postside, your tools for the mirror match are Red Elemental Blasts and Blood Moon.


2. Ichorid = extremely bad times... I know that this has always been so for red threshold, however, is there a way to remedy this aside from the obvious (play something else)?

Wait two weeks and you'll get to supplement Tormod's Crypt with the new Shards of Alara artifact. Beyond 4 Crypts and Pyroclasm, it will be your best additional inclusion.


3. Swan, a two of or three of? I have been having mixed feelings, as I always have an extra one to spare, which is sometimes a hassle, and sometimes a blessing.

Having three makes me more comfortable with pitching one to Force early, knowing that I have decent chances of finding a second if necessary.


No Stifle or Fire//Ice? Do you miss it?

Stifle is a good card, but without a primary plan of land destruction (i.e. no Wastelands to back it up) a Spell Snare covers more important stuff.

Fire//Ice, with the Ice side severely weakened by the lack of a tempo strategy, is comparable to Chain of Plasma in power; the combo utility of Chain tips the scales in its favour. It's not an unreasonable consideration for the flexible (i.e. Spell Snare) slot.


Does 3x Chain feel like the right number (I always thought people used 2x)? I don't mean to question, I'm just trying to get comfortable with it.

I feel OK with three, myself. They're essentially Incinerates, and they kill a lot of stuff.


How often does the combo kill come into play? Is it the normal way of winning? How often does it win vs. a Goyf/Goose win?

You go for the combo maybe once in four or five games against control and the mirror; half that or less often against aggro. It's a Plan B that comes to rescue you when, for whatever reason, your green guys have failed to go through the red zone.


What's a good combatant vs. Ichorid and Dragon Stompy for the 2x Spell Snare Slot? I realize that Spell Snare is good vs. CotV and Jitte, but virtually useless vs. Ichorid (these are my two most common matchups here). I also play against Spring Tide, burn and a Zoo build, but the top 2 are DS and Ichorid.

I think I'm stating the obvious here, but Ichorid and Dragon Stompy are two of the worst matchups for any Thresh variant. Moreover you'll want to side out Swans of Bryn Argoll, like anything that costs 4+ mana, against every matchup you listed except Dragon Stompy. This is probably not the thread you want to be in. Finally, Blood Moon is useless against every deck you listed except Zoo.

Anyway, if for whatever reason you want to go ahead with Swan Thresh, turn those Snares into Engineered Explosives, sideboard the third copy plus 4 BEBs, and good luck.


List

Your mana curve severely worries me. Compared to the list I've been playing, your changes are mostly towards more expensive cards (Out: 1 land, 2 Bolt, 2 Snare, 1 Ponder, 1 Swans; In: 1 Shoal, 2 Predict, 2 Rushing River, 2 Engineered Explosives). I think you'll end up with clogged hands far too often.


I basically replaced blood moon/ruination with price of progress to punish 3-5 color decks for reaching. With several fetchlands and only five dual lands, I imagine playing a resolved price of progress wouldn't hurt too bad.

PoP is a lot more narrow than Blood Moon, because it can only reliably attack control decks. Blood Moon is a bomb in the Counterbalance mirror, against Thrash, against CounterSlivers, against Doran Rock, etc. etc.


The singleton disrupting shoal interacts like a 5th force of will which can come in handy in matchups. It's been testing smoothly so far but I might replace it with something else later on like for maybe a 3rd predict or a 4th ponder.

I can't comment on Disrupting Shoal since i never played with it, but you absolutely want 4 Ponders. Find room for them - you run Predict, by the gods.


Rushing river can be useful in the mirror since it bounces powerful critters and as well as temporarily removing a threshold diminishing enchantment can do wonders as well.

Bounce sucks here: you don't play the tempo role nearly as well as Thrash. In those few situations where you'll want to sacrifice card advantage to bounce a couple of blockers or a lock piece, running the other Lightning Bolts will be almost as good, and they will prove more useful in nearly every other situation.

[Mister Agent]

Well I am more of a control player so that's why I find rushing river good for me. I am just trying to incorporate valid disruption for opposing tarmogoyfs, counterbalances, and mystic enforcers considering lightning bolts and chain of plasma will not always get there for me in terms of efficiency removal. Tempo or not rushing river can break those classified stalemates without the conditional value and that's something I like to see when playing threshold.

As for the spell snare vs counter war debate. I think spell snare is becoming less adequate in the mirror considering thoughtseize is becoming more of a popular maindeck choice in threshold. Aside from counterbalance, thoughtseize has several exploitation avenues in the mirror. Although, spell snare still has its merits and relevant roles in legacy.

I admit Nihil that you do make valid points about the inclusion of blood moon over pop and I agree with your points. Considering blood moon does in fact disrupt a field of utilizing lands and will help immensely in the thrash matchup much more then pop would ever be of equal value.

However, since I play against aggro loam and landstill quite a bit. I would prefer price of progress over blood moon. Based on my experience with both PoP and/or moon effects, I find myself putting away the loam or the landstill matchup with just by resolving a pop. While on the other hand in a blood moon perspective, both landstill and aggro loam can just bypass the bloody effect with their respective manabase stabalization tools. In other words, as you can see my sideboard is based off of what I play against frequently. Otherwise, I wouldn't even consider running price of progress. Blood moon does play a more relevant role then PoP does if you would throw either one in a metagame vacuum. But even so price of progess is still in fact a huge metagame spell.

[kiwi]

In an important tourney from France (204 Players) 2 UGR Threshold made top 8.

Lists

4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
4 [R] Tropical Island

// Creatures
3 [OD] Werebear
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [4E] Lightning Bolt
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [JU] Mental Note
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [SC] Stifle

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [OV] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa’s Jitte
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [CH] Tormod’s Crypt


and


3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland
1 Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Werebear
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterspell
4 Ponder
3 Mental Note
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
3 Stifle

Sideboard:
2 Pyroclasm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast

Both lists share mental note and counterspell .

Is time to return these cards to the main build ?

[Waikiki]

Where can I find the T8 list ?

[Ch@os]

Yes 204 Players Sounds amazing, but could not find the lists at deckcheck.

[kiwi]

In this thread of legacy Francehttp://www.legacy-france.com/index.php?showtopic=1877&st=0#

[Adan]

Both lists share mental note and counterspell .

Is time to return these cards to the main build ?

By god, no! Chrome Mox and Standstill are horrible as well:

Chome Mox is carddisadvantage which you can't compensate via Confidant or Balance, thus Chrome Mox is the worst card in this deck.

Standstill is one of the most situational cards of the format and you will somehow always hurt yourself because a lot of decks are built around it (i.e. Dreadstill and Landstill which are still hyped).

And Counterspell is too expansive and reactive to be in a tempo-build like... goobafish's (which is by the way the optimal build imho).

And for Mental Note... even though you are playing Werebears as additional critters, I'd say it is nor necessary, but it still makes a littebit sense.

[Happy Gilmore]

Any actual testing with the card?

No testing is required, the card is awful, end of story.

And before you ask, let me just say that Book Burning has been bad in every format since its initial printing. It wasn't even playable in limited. Mental Note isn't played either, but at least it is card parity, costs just one, is instant, and pitches to force.

The is not need for threshold before turn 3-4. Never has been.


And wow...that list made T8? Thats amazing. 13 blue sources no including mox. And instead of playing 4 of the good cards he decided to try and fit as many cards as possible at 3x. I just cant understand how decks built so poorly can get into a top 8 at a 204 person toury. It boggles the mind.

[thefreakaccident]

OK... Now, I have decided to go to the dark side fully :eek: .


I have been dabbling in many many archtypes recently, and have decided that since my meta is now devoid of threshold (only threshold players moved/are at college)...

Now, I have decided that since agro, combo, and only a little control (specifically goblins and oldschool BHWC landstill) have been seeing play in my meta again, that swan threshold would be the way to go...

Here is my list (carbon copy of Nihil's in the MD):

lands//18
2 island
1 forest
3 tropical island
4 volcanic island
3 wooded foothills
2 flooded strand
3 polluted delta

creatures//11
3 swans of byrn agroll
4 tarmogoyf
4 nimble mongoose

spells//31
4 lightning bolt
3 chain of plasma
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 daze
3 counterbalance
3 sensei's divining top
2 spell snare
1 lightning storm

sideboard//
3 krosan grip
4 magus of the moon
4 pyroclasm
2 blue elemental blast
2 red elemental blast



With the rise of control and agro, combo is beginning to see play again in my meta, which is why I think it would be wise to bring this into action.

Here are the lists that I have to work around:

landstill- (as you can see, no basics!!)

lands//24
4 mishra's factory
3 wasteland
2 nantuku monastary
2 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
4 tropical island
3 tundra
3 underground sea

spells//36
4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm
4 pernicious deed
4 standstill
2 teferi's response
3 stifle
2 crucible of worlds
3 fact or fiction
2 engineered explosives

sideboard//unknown

-------

goblins// (standard mono-red w/ full sets of both wasteland and port).


The rest of the decks in the meta are decks like TES, merfolk, burn, survival... and a few black based agro decks.


This is the current meta here, and suggestions on the board would be fantastic :wink: .

[Avatar of Light]

3 chain lightning

You'll have a hard time comboing with this. You mean Chain of Plasma (http://magiccards.info/on/en/193.html).

Your SB looks good, although if you need 2 free slots, I'd drop the MotM and Clasm counts to 3 each.

[thefreakaccident]

You'll have a hard time comboing with this. You mean Chain of Plasma (http://magiccards.info/on/en/193.html).

Your SB looks good, although if you need 2 free slots, I'd drop the MotM and Clasm counts to 3 each.

lol, I was even looking at my deck too :laugh: ...

I will edit that.

[Irish_Mafia]

Alright Guys i have a question. Im newer to legacy (as you can see) so i mostly just read. And I want to go the 5th year anniversery tourney the 18th. It will be my first large scale legacy event and i was wondering would Canadian threshold be a better meta choice or would swan thresh? Thanks.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Canadian Thrash. It would definitely be the better choice imo. I've only played UGr Thrash and Swan, but I've played against Canadian and I think it has a better mirror-match.

Pce,

--DC

[Wargoos]

If UGr ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh is your deck choice i would recommend to play the canadian variant, it's ld and stifle hate makes it the strongest variant of this decktype, being able to kill stormcombo with one card and racin' decks using fetchies and nonbasics into burnreach.

[Adan]

Alright Guys i have a question. Im newer to legacy (as you can see) so i mostly just read. And I want to go the 5th year anniversery tourney the 18th. It will be my first large scale legacy event and i was wondering would Canadian threshold be a better meta choice or would swan thresh? Thanks.

SwanThresh.

The main reason why I'd play SwanTresh are:

- Counterbalance. Srsly, if there's a card that kills combo by it's own, it's Counterbalance, not Stifle. It wins the mirrormatch as well and is in general superior to the whole format (quote DiF).

- The random combo: It might help you against matchups like Landstill and ITF which are different to race since they will throw Explosives and Pernicious Deeds at you like none other.

- Playing SwanThresh with Basiclands (2 Islands, 1 Forest) allows you to play Blood Moon in the Sb which can also simply win the mirrormatch. And it's good against ITF again.

- SwanThresh allows you to switch between 2 roles: Aggro (beating the opponent down with the men and burning him out) and Control (utilizing the burnspells as removal and Counterbalance to out-control him until you can finish with a Goyf, Swan or the combo). Canadian Thresh is - in compairison to that - more straight-foward and focused on generating speedadvantage. If that doesn't suceed, you are in trouble.

And the last reason why I'm suggesting SwanThresh is to disagree with the 2 posters before on principle.

[Shriekmaw]

Canadian Thrash. It would definitely be the better choice imo. I've only played UGr Thrash and Swan, but I've played against Canadian and I think it has a better mirror-match.

Pce,

--DC


I would only play Canadian Threshold with counterspells instead of fire/ice since its proven to be so much better. I'm glad I made the switch and 2 straight top 8's with the deck.

[Waikiki]

So you literally replaced the 4 F/I with 4 counterspells and did not change a thing ? I really wonder if you reliaby get UU online.

[goobafish]

I would only play Canadian Threshold with counterspells instead of fire/ice since its proven to be so much better. I'm glad I made the switch and 2 straight top 8's with the deck.

Why do you say it's proven? 2 Top 8s doesn't even compare to the number of top 8's with Fire//Ice. Counterspell may very well be better than Fire//Ice in that slot, especially for Syracuse, but it is not proven. I have yet to run the Counterspell list through a gauntlet, but theoretically I can see it being a good change for the Syracuse meta.

[Adan]

goobafish, what the...?

I'd say Fire//ice is essential for your Threshold build as it fulfills 2 purposes that fit right into the deck's concept: Generating speedadvantage (Ice) and being a wincondition/semi-removal at the same time.

I can't see how a list with:

4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell

can score 2 times as it is then WAY too reactive. Cutting Fire//Ice for Counterspells falsifies the whole deck concept. I could imagine to cut Rushing River, but Fire//Ice? NOT!

[goobafish]

I'd say Fire//ice is essential for your Threshold build as it fulfills 2 purposes that fit right into the deck's concept: Generating speedadvantage (Ice) and being a wincondition/semi-removal at the same time.


I fully agree with you that it fits perfectly into the concept of the deck, which is why I am still playing them. That being said, in the last 2 tourneys I have played in Syracuse I have always found myself needing more answers to big spells. My 2 losses last tourney were to Konsultant's Landstill deck. His sweepers in the form of Wrath of God, and Engineered Explosives were too much to handle for my limited hard counters. Fire//Ice is an amazing card in this deck, but from my experiences in Syracuse with a hefty amount of Survival and Landstill, Counterspell might be more important.


Cutting Fire//Ice for Counterspells falsifies the whole deck concept. I could imagine to cut Rushing River, but Fire//Ice? NOT!

I don't see how it falsifies it. You are right that Fire//Ice fits into the gameplan of the deck much better than Counterspell does, but odd metagames call for odd choices. You make it sound like blasphemy for changing the list to tailor your needs. I don't condemn people for tweaking my list for their metagame, in fact it is rather important. The addition of Counterspells to the Canadian Thresh lists used in Syracuse seemed to be helping it Top 8. Whether they would have top 8ed with Fire//Ice instead of Counterpell, we can't say for sure. But it seems to be working, so I will not condemn it without testing it.

[Wargoos]

Canadian Thresh is - in compairison to that - more straight-foward and focused on generating speedadvantage

And that' why i like it more than SwanTresh.
I tried all of the UGr Builds in about 100 Games.
And Canadian performed just better.

Red is supposed to support the aggroplan just better, the CB setup just takes up time, and it isn't winning games just by it's own - except for the combomus.

[Adan]

I fully agree with you that it fits perfectly into the concept of the deck, which is why I am still playing them. That being said, in the last 2 tourneys I have played in Syracuse I have always found myself needing more answers to big spells. My 2 losses last tourney were to Konsultant's Landstill deck. His sweepers in the form of Wrath of God, and Engineered Explosives were too much to handle for my limited hard counters. Fire//Ice is an amazing card in this deck, but from my experiences in Syracuse with a hefty amount of Survival and Landstill, Counterspell might be more important.

I see your point, but against Landstill it won't matter whether you play Counterspell or not, it will still defeat you, especially konsultant's new list with increased spotremoval (Vindicate).

But I don't see why Fire/ice is inferior to Counterspell against Survival. Fire/Ice is insane against Survival as it can also be used as manadenial. Killing multiple Birds, Quirion Ranger, Rofellos and Dark Confidants is great.

Not to mention that the dangerous spells can be already handled by Spell Snare (i.e. Goyfs, Survival and under certain circumstances, Dark Confidant as well).


I don't see how it falsifies it. You are right that Fire//Ice fits into the gameplan of the deck much better than Counterspell does, but odd metagames call for odd choices. You make it sound like blasphemy for changing the list to tailor your needs. I don't condemn people for tweaking my list for their metagame, in fact it is rather important. The addition of Counterspells to the Canadian Thresh lists used in Syracuse seemed to be helping it Top 8. Whether they would have top 8ed with Fire//Ice instead of Counterpell, we can't say for sure. But it seems to be working, so I will not condemn it without testing it.

Well, it makes the deck even more reactive than it is already.

As I said in my impressions of the deck when I played in in January, I often felt like playing my old UR Landstill. You have Stifle, Wasteland to keep the opponent shot on resources and a lot of Burn. The only difference was that we have creatures as wincons instead of manlands and CQ instead of Standstill.

4 Lightning Bolt+4 Fire//Ice = 20 damage. That should not be underestimated.

That's why I am strictly against cutting Fire//Ice since it really falsifies the aspect of "reach" which actually coins your build imho.


Red is supposed to support the aggroplan just better, the CB setup just takes up time, and it isn't winning games just by it's own - except for the combomus.

ROFL

[goobafish]

I see your point, but against Landstill it won't matter whether you play Counterspell or not, it will still defeat you, especially konsultant's new list with increased spotremoval (Vindicate).


It is likely that his new list is too much to handle, with or without Counterspells. If in any of our games in the finals of the last event, I had even 1 counterpell I would have won. The game went down to an Eternal Dragon in one, and an EE in the other, without him having any backup counters.



But I don't see why Fire/ice is inferior to Counterspell against Survival. Fire/Ice is insane against Survival as it can also be used as manadenial. Killing multiple Birds, Quirion Ranger, Rofellos and Dark Confidants is great.

Not to mention that the dangerous spells can be already handled by Spell Snare (i.e. Goyfs, Survival and under certain circumstances, Dark Confidant as well).

This is a more "you have to play it to understand" situation. Good survival players will most often name Spell Snare against you with their Therapies. The combination of Therapies and Thoughtseizes can rip your hand of your counters, while leaving you with spells that aren't so great. Counterspell increases the variety of answers you have to a Survival or a Goyf, or a Witness. Fire//Ice are good against survival sometimes, to cut off mana production from elves and birds, but in reality they only need 2 mana to play survival and steal the game.

I do agree that the reach that the burn spells provide should not be underestimated, and that it is one of the huge advantages of this build and as such, I am wary to recommend cutting Fire//Ices before running it through an entire gauntlet (not just popular Syracuse decks).

[Wargoos]

Well Adan, now i got it.
CB is just sooo good , revealing a swan would counter the humilit, thats of course broken






Not.

[Adan]

Well Adan, now i got it.
CB is just sooo good , revealing a swan would counter the humilit, thats of course broken






Not.

Seriously, learn to argue properly. You are mentioning a point that is another "Pro" for Counterbalance. Having a CC4 spells is good against Landstill since it counters Humilty, Wrath of God and Fact or Fiction, 2 of them being dangerous ones which would break your neck. You are contradicting youself.

Additionally, it wins against the mirrormatch and other random-crap because those decks won't be able to resolve a spell. Meanwhile you simply beat him down with Tarmogoyf.

And you also recorgnized yourself that Counterbalance wins against Goyf Sligh and other decks. It is also better against Survival-builds like Di's (ask him, he says himself that Counterbalance is something Survival can only hardly deal with).

[Wargoos]

Thx for talkin properly.
of course having a cc4 slot against landstill is quite good as you already mentioned, but the point is still that's it a pretty bad matchup for us and that countering the humility won't win the game instantly.


Additionally, it wins against the mirrormatch and other random-crap because those decks won't be able to resolve a spell. Meanwhile you simply beat him down with Tarmogoyf.
That's what CB is supposed to do, but resolving it doesn't mean you won, for instance against sligh.
Just take a look into the goyflsigh thread, P.R. explained few things concerning playing against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh there.

And: CB is of course the win against most of the recent combodecks, but so is stifle plus fow/daze backup.

Concerning the Survival Matchup i made very bad expiriences.
I played with the swan list 12 times in like 5 tourneys vs. Survival and lost all, even when i had the cbtop engine out, that makes me think that even with cb, survival remains very bad news for us.

[Shriekmaw]

So you literally replaced the 4 F/I with 4 counterspells and did not change a thing ? I really wonder if you reliaby get UU online.


I like the switch they I've made here in Syracuse. It could just be the metagame warrants more hard counters than what fire/ice has to offer. The only match where I do miss it is in the mirror, but no one play threshold in Syracuse.

For me, Fire/Ice just didn't do enough. You may totally disagree, but in playtesting this is what I've found. There was too many situations where I wanted a hard counter instead of a card which I felt didn't do enough for me. It's a metagame call, so I can't blame you if you totally disagree with me.

I guess I will have to post more Top 8's. :)

[Adan]

And: CB is of course the win against most of the recent combodecks, but so is stifle plus fow/daze backup.

And Counterbalance plus Daze+FoW-Backup isn't?


Concerning the Survival Matchup i made very bad expiriences.
I played with the swan list 12 times in like 5 tourneys vs. Survival and lost all, even when i had the cbtop engine out, that makes me think that even with cb, survival remains very bad news for us.

Without an active Survival they can't do much against CBalance. I'd say you did something wrong here. Except if you were playing against the BGW-variants which have Pernicious Deed MD.

[Jaiminho]

And: CB is of course the win against most of the recent combodecks, but so is stifle plus fow/daze backup.

CB > Stifle against storm combo. Roughly, the following describes how it goes:

Those that do use setup to get disruption and combo pieces in hand to finally go off will not care about Stifle but will get crushed badly by CB. Those that don't care to play enough disruption and try to win on turn 1 or 2 will lose to Force and Daze, while may not be disruptable by Stifle, as they may have a non-storm win condition. If these actually take the time to carry on with disruption, CB will be taken into effect. Those that play less setup, but do carry considerable disruption are slowed down enough by Force and Daze while you get to play CB, which, from now on, will deny lots to them as much as it would to a more setup oriented storm combo deck. Those happen to be, respectively, FT and Solidarity, SI and Belcher, and TES.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I love Stifle in my build, but I agree with Jaiminho. CB is by far a better defense against storm backed up with FoW//Daze backup. Stifle is great against Fetchlands, Wastelands, etc., but as far as actual protection goes it's CB. Is Spell Snare as useful as it could be? Could those be something different as well as Stifle?

Pce,

--DC

[Wargoos]

Quote:Originally Posted by EaD
And: CB is of course the win against most of the recent combodecks, but so is stifle plus fow/daze backup.


And Counterbalance plus Daze+FoW-Backup isn't?

->
CB is of course the win against most of the recent combodecks


Adan as you maybe noticed i live in germany and we have just few list splashing red for anger. Most of the survival players play rock-survival with kitchen finks (!!) and shriekmaws and of course deeds md, which are rly good.(I've even seen some recsur lists around).

@ Jaminho: Depends on the situation. If you are on the play and lay a land first, you have more treaths they have to deal with, if they want to cover themselves. So you slow them down and are able to play beaters to finish them off quickly or cantrip into disruption.
If you are not on the play, you are even at best to balancedugr list, because they have one turn more to go off. And the CB is cc2.

But that' not rly the point.
Both versions balanced or not have an improved matchup vs. combo immo through the automatically added cs.

The point is that i think the tempothresh lists are performing better than the swans, against the bad matchups (which still are bad even they got more favorable), and that the good matchups still remain good.
For instance, take the landstill matchup:
It's bad, since they're all playing the cunningstill versions, the handicap is like about 70-30, in landstills favor.
Of course there are cc4 slots in the Swanlists, which allow you to counter the humility and the wraths.
But you just play 3 swans and having one of them in the opening hand is really a pain if you aren't able to shuffle it away, or aren't able to dive into it with the cb-top engine. As well if you can manage to reveal the swan it's still a manaconsuming process, since the landstill guy will know, that you have to counter their bunch of threats.
The only thing to really attack landstill is the manabase. Mooneffects are great, but so is wasteland and stifle.
Stifle allows you to slow them down by fetch into the right mana, to deny the decreetoken and to save your mongoose from EE's and even from deeds , if they play any.
Wasteland destroy's a dual or a mishra for sure, so you can race them with burn and beaters.
And you have more burn, which proved to be really good against landstill, right?
I think the only thing that helps in the swanlists are the mooneffects in the sideboard, as adan mentioned before.
Further on as i noticed (and earned an invidious laughter from adan), stifle and waste supports the gameplan of this deck just better than it does in the swanlist.
Canadiantresh is designed for tempo, holding the opponent off his mana, counter his spells with lowered cc counterpells, while beating and burning him to death.
Swan is just splashing red for the chains, which are not designed for tempo (but still are a good card).
Closing the ideal version of UGr ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh is the tempovariant due to better supportment of the gameplan.

[Adan]

The point is that i think the tempothresh lists are performing better than the swans, against the bad matchups (which still are bad even they got more favorable), and that the good matchups still remain good.

Bullshit since the canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh tends to lose against Loam-based decks where SwanThresh can still shine with BASICLANDS, Counterbalance and maybe even SB Blood Moons which are really good against Lands.dec.

Additionally you always have the random combokill which allows you to out-control them even though you don't have threats, but you can still win during 1 or 2 turns.


For instance, take the landstill matchup:
It's bad, since they're all playing the cunningstill versions, the handicap is like about 70-30, in landstills favor.
Of course there are cc4 slots in the Swanlists, which allow you to counter the humility and the wraths.

So being able to counter everything is bad or what?


But you just play 3 swans and having one of them in the opening hand is really a pain if you aren't able to shuffle it away, or aren't able to dive into it with the cb-top engine. As well if you can manage to reveal the swan it's still a manaconsuming process, since the landstill guy will know, that you have to counter their bunch of threats.

Threats? In Landstill? What? Which threats?


The only thing to really attack landstill is the manabase. Mooneffects are great, but so is wasteland and stifle.
Stifle allows you to slow them down by fetch into the right mana, to deny the decreetoken and to save your mongoose from EE's and even from deeds , if they play any.

Yeah, try to attack the manabase of UWb LS which plays 5-6 basics. -.-


Wasteland destroy's a dual or a mishra for sure, so you can race them with burn and beaters.
And you have more burn, which proved to be really good against landstill, right?

canadian thresh: 4 Bolt, 4 Fire//Ice -> 20 Damage

Swans: 4 Bolt, 3 Chain, 1 Lightning Storm -> 22 + (2 x n) Damage, n being the amount of lands you discard.


Swan is just splashing red for the chains, which are not designed for tempo (but still are a good card).

SwanThresh was not designed for straight tempo-play in teh first place. You failed hard at understanding the concept, meh.


Closing the ideal version of UGr ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh is the tempovariant due to better supportment of the gameplan.

That's a sloppy conclusion. SwanThresh might not be as good as Tempotresh concering tempogamin, but it is still able to do so.

That is also the thing I like about the deck. You can actually choose with role to play, whether you simply out-control him or beat him down with critters and burn. And being that flexible, I'd prefer SwanThresh.

[Wargoos]

Stop gettin cocky, dude.


Threats? In Landstill? What? Which threats?

Card's that win the game not-diarectly like humility/ standstill/ wrath/ decree / discs / deed, since landstill isn't playing really threats.


SwanThresh can still shine with BASICLANDS

Jeah, it shines so well against DD.
But still it remains a bad matchup, even for the swanlist, no?


Additionally you always have the random combokill which allows you to out-control them even though you don't have threats, but you can still win during 1 or 2 turns.

Jeah, random.


Yeah, try to attack the manabase of UWb LS which plays 5-6 basics. -.-
First turn basic? Very good.
You don't have to destroy them all you know, just to delay them.


Swans: 4 Bolt, 3 Chain, 1 Lightning Storm -> 22 + (2 x n) Damage, n being the amount of lands you discard.
THey can throw back chain on the swan to draw 3 cards, or like burning yourself ( which can be of course neglected playing against landstill), or may even burn your little goyfy goyf.
Lightning Storm, could maybe come back to your head as well.



SwanThresh was not designed for straight tempo-play in teh first place. You failed hard at understanding the concept, meh.
->
Swan is just splashing red for the chains, which are not designed for tempo
Thought this one's obvious.
Are you always attackin your discuss. partner directly to appear superior?


And being that flexible, I'd prefer SwanThresh.

That's a sloppy conclusion.

I think this is gettin' nowhere.
Both decks have their advantages and disadvantages, the one is more straight forward (what i personally prefer) the other supposed to be flexible.
So just choose, what fit's your playing style.
So far.

[Adan]

Card's that win the game not-diarectly like humility/ standstill/ wrath/ decree / discs / deed, since landstill isn't playing really threats.

Counterbalance can - assuming we have Swans on top - counter every spell you listed above, except Deed. So what's wrong about Counterbalance?

Stifle and Wasteland can't do anything against these which makes your hype about them redundant.


Jeah, it shines so well against DD.

Well, beside that Counterbalance counters Devastating Dreams, Burning Wish and Loam infinite times (which Spell Snare can't), is THAT your counter-argument?!


But still it remains a bad matchup, even for the swanlist, no?

Well. No. I played against Aggro-Loam a few times and it's actually ok, I won like 5-2. 3 times combo, 2 times out-controling him. I have not played against Lands.dec, but I'd say that Blood Moon makes it even better since Counterbalance already turns his deck into a pile consisting of utility-lands.

And vice-versa, Blood Moon turns his 43Land to 43Mountain.


First turn basic? Very good.
You don't have to destroy them all you know, just to delay them.

You will delay yourself just by the way. Keeping a blue source open for Stifle does slow yourself down. The trick is to be aggressive without overextending. And that's where SwanThresh could do better since 1 Swan can be enough to win (-> combo).


They can throw back chain on the swan to draw 3 cards, or like burning yourself ( which can be of course neglected playing against landstill), or may even burn your little goyfy goyf.
Lightning Storm, could maybe come back to your head as well.

OMG. You mentioned "Swans" and "Chain" in the same scenario and you are trying to make it look bad with irrelevant things that can happen. Oh man. Ok, for everyone:

"Swans" + "Chain" = "Win" aka "Good Game" aka "You retarded topdecker!". Even though if they draw 3 cards, even though they will burn your Goyf, so what? You will have drawn 42 cards or so and therefore you will have more lands in your hand than your opponent to ensure that Lightning Storm does NOT come back to your head. And you will have all your Lightning Bolts, quad-Force of Will-bakcup, Dazes etc.


Are you always attackin your discuss. partner directly to appear superior?

Guilty as charged.

[Wargoos]

Stifle and Wasteland can't do anything against these which makes your hype about them redundand

Allright kid, stifle won't do anything vs. deed, decreetoken or disk. Got it.

As you tell the story you will always have the swan it the top right?
Ah i forgot your the selfclaimed god drawer.


Well, beside that Counterbalance counters Devastating Dreams, Burning Wish and Loam infinite times (which Spell Snare can't), is THAT your counter-argument?!
Yeah, cb counters it all, you're the man. Spell Snare as you said doesn't, cuz it just affects cc2 spells, right.


Well. No. I played against Loam a few times and it's actually good, I won like 5-2. 3 times combo, 2 times out-controling him
Wow how impressive you are. 3 times combo, and managed to out-control him.Phew. Very representative of course.


You will delay yourself just by the way.
As long as i win, i dont mind.



Even though if they draw 3 cards, even though they will burn your Goyf, so what?
Considering you have no swan outside, my fault not to set a point instead of commas. Should just show that Chain isnt that awesome on it's own.



Guilty as charged. Oh wait, I was attacking your arguments actually. And they ARE ridiculous to a degree.

The only thing that is ridicolous is your childish affectation.

[Adan]

Yeah, cb counters it all, you're the man. Spell Snare as you said doesn't, cuz it just affects cc2 spells, right.

That's why I wrote "infinite times". Spell Snare can only counter them ONCE. While you can run out of Spell Snares, an active Counterbalance will hinder him from resolving further spells.


Wow how impressive you are. 3 times combo, and managed to out-control him. Phew. Very representative of course.

->


As long as i win, i dont mind.


Considering you have no swan outside, my fault not to set a point instead of commas. Should just show that Chain isnt that awesome on it's own.

Ah ok. I suggest you should then call a judge if your opponent draws 3 cards after you played Chain without having Swans out... ???


The only thing that is ridicolous is your childish affectation.

Ok.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Counterbalance can - assuming we have Swans on top - counter every spell you listed above, except Deed. So what's wrong about Counterbalance?
Assuming you have a 3-of that you can't actually tutor for on top of your library and resolved both Counterbalance and Top, and have the mana to manipulate your library. And you did all of these things before turn 6 consistently?

Stifle and Wasteland can't do anything against these which makes your hype about them redundant.
Besides prevent a deck from casting them because most control decks are dependent on either Fetchlands, Nonbasics or both.

Well, beside that Counterbalance counters Devastating Dreams, Burning Wish and Loam infinite times (which Spell Snare can't), is THAT your counter-argument?!
You still need Top and a 2cc card on top of your library, of which you run 11, if I remember correctly. Are you starting with Countertop in play?


Well. No. I played against Aggro-Loam a few times and it's actually ok, I won like 5-2. 3 times combo, 2 times out-controling him. I have not played against Lands.dec, but I'd say that Blood Moon makes it even better since Counterbalance already turns his deck into a pile consisting of utility-lands.

And vice-versa, Blood Moon turns his 43Land to 43Mountain.
I can see how the Swan combo can win against board stalls, but I doubt your results are representative of the matchup as a whole.

Again, you actually have to draw your Counterbalances and resolve Top, and get a 2cc card on top of your library. This might be difficult depending on the number of Wastes/Ports your opponent drawn. Not saying Counterbalance isn't awesome in that matchup, but I doubt you draw it 100% of the time.


You will delay yourself just by the way. Keeping a blue source open for Stifle does slow yourself down. The trick is to be aggressive without overextending. And that's where SwanThresh could do better since 1 Swan can be enough to win (-> combo).
The threat of a Stifle slows your opponent down and forces him to make decisions, even if you are bluffing it. Many times I've had people sit on a fetchland or two because of that untapped land. Not to mention actually Stifling a land.



OMG. You mentioned "Swans" and "Chain" in the same scenario and you are trying to make it look bad with irrelevant things that can happen. Oh man. Ok, for everyone:

"Swans" + "Chain" = "Win" aka "Good Game" aka "You retarded topdecker!". Even though if they draw 3 cards, even though they will burn your Goyf, so what? You will have drawn 42 cards or so and therefore you will have more lands in your hand than your opponent to ensure that Lightning Storm does NOT come back to your head. And you will have all your Lightning Bolts, quad-Force of Will-bakcup, Dazes etc.
You're missing the point that the Swan combo is absolutely fucking awful in the mirror because unless you have the combo, and counter protection, you run the very real risk of giving your opponent an Ancestral fucking Recall. Not to mention Swan dies in a fire to Red Blasts.

It seems you completely underestimate Canadian Threshold. It plays control infinitely better than you give it credit for.

[Adan]

I have played canadian Threshold in January and got annihilated by Clemens because he fetched basiclands. And when I played Landstill, I anihhilated the other tempo-Thresh player by doing the same.

Therefore, Wastelands are becoming worse since you don't have any need for generic mana. That leaves only Stifle for you. But if you are wasting your Stifles for fetchlands, you won't be able to counter Deed, Decree, Explosives.

But we have to distinguish between UWb LS (which runs 5-6 basiclands) and 4color Landstill (maybe 2 basics maximum).

Against 4color Landstill, canadian Thresh is good, yes. But against UWb LS... no.
But 4color LS can also be disrupted hard by Blood Moon.

Yes, if I don't have Counterbalance, Lands will most likely reduce me to ashes but running Counterbalance and Blood Moon gives us at least more outs than canadian Thresh has.

Bluffing Stifle when I don't have one is ok if you really have nothing else to play, but otherwise I'd give the 1st Turn Ponder or Mongoose top-priority.
But that's possible, yes.

Yes, canadian Thresh seems to have the upper hand vs. SwanThresh. Your argument with the Swans might be correct, but my worries are that you won't be able to cast it anyway since canadian Threshold has got a lot of manadenial which makes Daze stronger. Not to mention that Spell Snare counters most of the dangerous cards which are Counterbalance and Goyf.

[Avatar of Light]

THey can throw back chain on the swan to draw 3 cards, or like burning yourself ( which can be of course neglected playing against landstill), or may even burn your little goyfy goyf.

If you're aiming the Chain at your opponent instead of your Swan, it had better be the killing blow.

[Whit3 Ghost]

I have played canadian Threshold in January and got annihilated by Clemens because he fetched basiclands. And when I played Landstill, I anihhilated the other tempo-Thresh player by doing the same.

Therefore, Wastelands are becoming worse since you don't have any need for generic mana. That leaves only Stifle for you. But if you are wasting your Stifles for fetchlands, you won't be able to counter Deed, Decree, Explosives.

But we have to distinguish between UWb LS (which runs 5-6 basiclands) and 4color Landstill (maybe 2 basics maximum).

Against 4color Landstill, canadian Thresh is good, yes. But against UWb LS... no.
But 4color LS can also be disrupted hard by Blood Moon.

Yes, if I don't have Counterbalance, Lands will most likely reduce me to ashes but running Counterbalance and Blood Moon gives us at least more outs than canadian Thresh has.
Why were you letting him fetch? If you didn't see a Stifle in the X games that you played, it's whatever but if you were saving it for Decree/Explosives or whatever it's the wrong call.

Yeah, Wasteland is bad by itself against Landstill when they can fetch basics. However, Stifle makes the probability of them getting all basics that much less.

I agree that a deck with Blood Moon is going to have a better chance against 43 Lands than a deck without it, but you made it sound like you were favored by quite a bit.

The fear of a Stifle effects your opponent as that random U mana open can turn into a time-walk. Also, I never actually specified what turn it happened on as you are correct in that instance, Ponder/Goose usually takes priority.

[Nihil Credo]

I'll vouch my POV on the matter:

Against UWb Landstill, both Canadian and Swan Thresh are unfavoured in game 1. Canadian is more random because it strongly depends on whether or not Landstill's first land drops are vulnerable to Stifle/Wasteland; Swan vs. Landstill games will be more predictable and come down to small edges. Postboard, Swan doesn't usually get significantly better (stuff like REB or Needle is good, but not game-breaking), whereas Canadian can improve *if* it has the appropriate tools (mainly Winter Orb, which is a true "resolve = I Win" card).
Aggro Loam is a close matchup (and actually unfavoured if AL runs maindeck Chalice), but Swan Thresh is the better one here, thanks to a variety of factors: its basic lands, its evasive/combo finisher, twice as many ways to kill fucking Countryside Crusher, and the ability to lock the critical 2cc slot with Counterbalance (some AL builds don't even run EE!). It's a long shot for Canadian to successfully manascrew Loam; Mox Diamond in particular is a beast here. The post-sideboard options are comparable (usually Crypt for both), although Swan Thresh is more likely to have interesting tools like Mind Harness.
When paired against each other, I'll bet on Swan Thresh - or, more appropriately, on Moon Thresh, since Swan only gets the edge over Canadian on account of the basics in the main and Moons in the side, while the combo itself should be sided out here (for the record, not because the opponent will burn the Swans, but rather because a) you don't want 4cc spells here and b) Chain of Plasma is unreliable when you're on the defensive).

[Henrik]

I have grown fond of counterspell in Canadian builds.
I would probably not switch the fire // ices to counterspells as was discussed, but I've put them in the bounce-slots. Also I have one extra in the SB.

List:

Canadian build
- 2 bounce
+ 2 counterspell

SB:
3 krosan grip
3 pithing needle
4 pyroclasm
4 pyroblast
1 counterspell

The extra counterspell in SB might seem weird, and I agree, it is weird. But I've found that one of the most common boarding-strategies I use for game 2 is -4 daze + 3 krosan grip, +1 counterspell. And it works.

I'm not saying it is superieor to the bounce in the original build, I'm only saying I really like counterspell in the deck. If anyone has another idea of how to fit them in, please share.

[Henrik]

I won a local mini-tournament yesterday with the list posted above.
I went 3 straight 2-0 against Enchantress, 4c landstill w/deed, and UB Trinketstalker w/CB-top.
Question is, was it thanks to counterspells?
I would like to think so, but right now, as you can probably tell, I'm pretty biased in this issue ;)

[Shriekmaw]

I won a local mini-tournament yesterday with the list posted above.
I went 3 straight 2-0 against Enchantress, 4c landstill w/deed, and UB Trinketstalker w/CB-top.
Question is, was it thanks to counterspells?
I would like to think so, but right now, as you can probably tell, I'm pretty biased in this issue ;)


I would probably not remove the bounce spell in the deck. They seem to provide answers to cards that you can't easily deal with if they resolve. I'm not sure why people are so in love with fire/ice. It just didn't seem to do enough for me when I played the card. This could be because of the metagame is different in Syracuse compared to where you played. I always found that I wanted more protection in my hand, especially when I have a Goyf on the board.

I love all the cards in the deck except for the fire/ice slot and would not think about cutting anything else. I guess people have to come to their own conclusions, but please at least test the counterspells out, you might be surprised on how strong they really are.