[OLD] UGr Threshold

[Ironstickman]

I'm currently playing -1 Wipe Away -1 Fire/Ice for two Counterpsells.
I'm reluctant to take out Rushing river since it win games by itself. The truth is counterspells give quite a bit of stability lategame.
Fire/Ice is the kind of card that makes you win against a random deck which you're likely going to face. It is, however, a far too limited tool against many DtB so playing 4 copies is a bit excesive.

[chokin]

I'm currently playing -1 Wipe Away -1 Fire/Ice for two Counterpsells.
I'm reluctant to take out Rushing river since it win games by itself. The truth is counterspells give quite a bit of stability lategame.
Fire/Ice is the kind of card that makes you win against a random deck which you're likely going to face. It is, however, a far too limited tool against many DtB so playing 4 copies is a bit excesive.

Maybe it's just me, but I'd think that Wipe Away would be better than Rushing River. There have been more times I'd like to see Wipe Away instead of Rushing River(mostly against CB Top than anything). Or is River just easier to cast since you have the Wastelands and in case of Blood Moon?

I play more Swan than Canadian so IDK :confused:

[Henrik]

When you say rushing river wins on it's own, consider fire // ice to do the same, but also being more flexible in other scenarios. bounce two potential blockers IS valuable, but I think the value of having a versatile card is better. EOT tap the blocker -> cantrip into something nice wins a lot of games too.

But, I suppose this is all small potatoes in the end, if you like the spell, each player should be able to fit 2-3 counterspells into the deck in whatever way that player prefers.

[Henrik]

Moving on...

How does Canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh players handle Ichorid and Stax?
What are the useful cards in sideboard and what is boarded out for them?
What are the most important "must-counter"-spell that Ichorid and Stax lay against you?

[Adan]

Moving on...

How does Canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh players handle Ichorid and Stax?
What are the useful cards in sideboard and what is boarded out for them?
What are the most important "must-counter"-spell that Ichorid and Stax lay against you?

Against Ichorid: 4 Tormod's Crypt. And pray for that they don't do that retarded 1st Turn Kill. I'd board out Spell Snares against Ichorid since they are dead. Must-counters are situational. Early, I'd try to counter discard-outlets. Later they will rip off your counters with Cabal Therapy before doing anything further.

Against Stax: TRYGON PREDATOR! He's sooo fucking amazing it's unbelievable. They can't do anything against him. Except scooping. The good thing is that if you have one in your opening hand, you just have to ensure that he resolves and don't have to counter everything like Chalice 1. Only stuff like Crucible or Trinisphere which might slow you down.
Play Predators if you are afraid of Stax. They were another reason why I netdecked goobafish's list in January (Stax had it's high times back then).

[Henrik]

Yeah, that was what I expected. Right now, I don't play either crypt or predator in my deck, because my meta is extremely control / agro-control oriented.

Again, this is what I play:

MD:
Canadian
- 2 bounce
+ 2 counterspell

SB:
4 pyroblast
4 pyroclasm
3 krosan grip
3 pithing neddle
1 counterspell

This decklist has evolved in my meta where neither stax or ichorid is present. Instead there's a LOT of ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh-mirror, landstill, deed-control, aluren, fish (merfolk and faeries) and various survival-builds. In this meta my SB seems pretty much opted.
However, I plan to attend a tournament with an unknown meta, except that I've heard that ichorid is 20% (sick!). Also, I'm worried about stax since I know how to play against most decks but not that one.

So look at it this way. Playing in an unknown meta, except for the known ichorid matchup, how would you modify my sideboard to fit the crypts?
(I won't bother about predator and keep the grips instead, at least until I know if stax is played).

[Adan]

Instead there's a LOT of ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh-mirror, landstill, deed-control, aluren, fish (merfolk and faeries) and various survival-builds. In this meta my SB seems pretty much opted.

[...]

So look at it this way. Playing in an unknown meta, except for the known ichorid matchup, how would you modify my sideboard to fit the crypts?
(I won't bother about predator and keep the grips instead, at least until I know if stax is played).

Since you did not mention Goblins at all, what about kicking Pyroclasms out? You matchup against Fish, Merfolk and Faeries should already be good with all that Burn. I'm not sure about that, but since no one plays Goblins I think it's ok.

[raharu]

Since you did not mention Goblins at all, what about kicking Pyroclasms out? You matchup against Fish, Merfolk and Faeries should already be good with all that Burn. I'm not sure about that, but since no one plays Goblins I think it's ok.

Isn't PyroK pretty dandy against Ichorid? It's not like anyone runs Flame-Kin Zealot or Anger anymore, and on the play you can PyroK off even the insane turn-one wins, and it's a one-sided WoG because it hits Ichorids, Narcomobeas, and Zombie tokens. I always thought PyroK in the Ichorid match was one of the fringe benefits of playing red :rolleyes:

[Nihil Credo]

1) Pretty much all Ichorid builds run FKZ, actually.

2) UGr Thresh doesn't normally have enough red cards to support Pyrokinesis.

[raharu]

1) Pretty much all Ichorid builds run FKZ, actually.
Really? I haven't heard much of it recently or seen it used... huh. Errr, Force the Dread Return?


2) UGr Thresh doesn't normally have enough red cards to support Pyrokinesis.

I meant Pyroclasm, not Pyrokenesis.

[Shriekmaw]

Really? I haven't heard much of it recently or seen it used... huh. Errr, Force the Dread Return?



I meant Pyroclasm, not Pyrokenesis.


The sideboard plan that I run against Ichroid is to the out the 2 counterspells, 2 bounce spells and 4 spells snares for the 4 tomord's crypt, 2 pyroclasms and 2 krosan grips (for leyline/needles). Seem to have worked very well. I can usually take games 2 and 3 after I get slaughtered in the first one.

[Adan]

Isn't PyroK pretty dandy against Ichorid? It's not like anyone runs Flame-Kin Zealot or Anger anymore, and on the play you can PyroK off even the insane turn-one wins, and it's a one-sided WoG because it hits Ichorids, Narcomobeas, and Zombie tokens. I always thought PyroK in the Ichorid match was one of the fringe benefits of playing red :rolleyes:

Pyroclasm is O.K.

O.K. in the meaning of "mediocre". I'd still rather play Engineered Explosives in those slots, they have the same effect and are in general more versatile. But nickrit's boarding plan is most plausible, I would not have done it differently.

[Whit3 Ghost]

The sideboard plan that I run against Ichroid is to the out the 2 counterspells, 2 bounce spells and 4 spells snares for the 4 tomord's crypt, 2 pyroclasms and 2 krosan grips (for leyline/needles). Seem to have worked very well. I can usually take games 2 and 3 after I get slaughtered in the first one.
No Blasts come in? They seem to be the goods against Chains, Breakthroughs and DAs.

Edit- In the Syracuse metagame, I'd probably run Explosives over Clasm. I definitely agree with Adan on that point.

[Shriekmaw]

No Blasts come in? They seem to be the goods against Chains, Breakthroughs and DAs.

Edit- In the Syracuse metagame, I'd probably run Explosives over Clasm. I definitely agree with Adan on that point.

Blasts are way too narrow to be sided in. I would rather have counterspells that gives me the option of any spell instead of just blue spells. There is a lot of times where I want to counter either therapy, needle, or LED. Red blasts do not hit any of those which can be very crucial.

I found Explovies to be very bad since they nuke your dudes at 1 and 2 mana. There are better sideboard cards depending on what type of decks you might be facing. The bounce spells are way more relevant than explosives since they save your creatures which is important since you only play 8 ground threats.

[freakish777]

I meant Pyroclasm, not Pyrokenesis.

Assuming this is what you meant, how exactly does Pyroclasm hit Ichorids? They die at end of turn, and Clasm is a Sorcery.





Blasts are way too narrow

I agree with this, with the caveat that if you really do have a bunch of dead cards somehow (or you decided against boarding Tormod's for whatever reason), then Blast is atleast a 1 mana answer for some cards in their deck (and they're likely to play at least one during a game, so bringing in 1 or 2 blasts could be ok).


I found Explovies to be very bad since they nuke your dudes at 1 and 2 mana.

In the context of the Ichorid matchup, wouldn't you just about always play it on zero? I can't imagine playing it on two against Ichorid ever (when are you more afraid of a 1/1 flyer than a bunch of 3/3 hasted zombies?), and the only time it seems like you'd want to play it on one is if they have Needle down on Crypt (and even if you have Goose out, you're hitting their Bridges because of it). All this said, you obviously want reasons to run the card beyond a single match up, and you're basically left setting it on 0 or 3, or setting it on 1 or 2 when you're in a losing position (and ultimately this deck should be creating winning positions from the onset and forstalling losing positions with every other card in the deck until your guys get there). If you were somehow paranoid about Ichorid, I could see sideboarding an EE or maybe two, but I'm not sure they're worth it.

[goobafish]

Blasts are way too narrow to be sided in. I would rather have counterspells that gives me the option of any spell instead of just blue spells. There is a lot of times where I want to counter either therapy, needle, or LED. Red blasts do not hit any of those which can be very crucial.


I take out burn for blasts. Burn doesn't do to much in the matchup. I find that you either stop them, or you don't, there is rarely any middle ground. Blasts stop them from accelerating really quickly, where burn doesn't do much of anything.

[Sage]

Adan,

Would you mind posting your current Swan Thresh list that you would play in an unknown metta? I played the list you posted a few pages back and the deck played quite well, but I had too many ties. I believe it was due to my being too slow with cb/top and sb'ing improperly. Do you think I should keep the cb/top engine in and practice with it more? If you were to take out those 6 cards, what would you replace them with?

[Adan]

Adan,

Would you mind posting your current Swan Thresh list that you would play in an unknown metta? I played the list you posted a few pages back and the deck played quite well, but I had too many ties. I believe it was due to my being too slow with cb/top and sb'ing improperly. Do you think I should keep the cb/top engine in and practice with it more? If you were to take out those 6 cards, what would you replace them with?

The deck becomes garbage if you cut CB-Top.

My list now looks like this (ripped off the Blood Moon Sb Tech from Nihil. Credits to him):

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [A] Island (1)
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Volcanic Island
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [B] Forest (1)

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
3 [SHM] Swans of Bryn Argoll
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [ON] Chain of Plasma
1 [CS] Lightning Storm
2 [OD] Predict

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [DK] Blood Moon

[Taurelin]

Love that list!

The only thing I wonder is if you should really go down to 1 Island, because once Blood Moon is in play you can't cast Swans or CB anymore. Do you side them out in a MU where you bring in Moon, or do you rely on playing them before putting Moon on the table?

My suggestion would simply be
-1 Tropical Island
+1 basic Island

[MULocke]

Love that list!

The only thing I wonder is if you should really go down to 1 Island, because once Blood Moon is in play you can't cast Swans or CB anymore. Do you side them out in a MU where you bring in Moon, or do you rely on playing them before putting Moon on the table?

My suggestion would simply be
-1 Tropical Island
+1 basic Island

Actually, I think a land is missing because he only has 17. That might work for thrash, but I don't think swans can go under 18. My suggestion is to cut a predict or daze for that 2nd basic island, and possibly a trop or volcanic for the 4th Wooded Foothills. That way, you have 1 more fetch for the basic forest, and you reach threshold at a decent rate while still running so many permanents.

[Sage]

Thanks for the list Adan.

If you don't mind, some questions;
Why did you go down to 17 lands and one island?
Predict over Spell Snare?
Shouldn't you split the strands into 2 strands/2 deltas?
Why fewer fetches in general?
Added one Daze.
Engineered Explosives out of the sb?

My oppinions;
18 lands seemed sound for me and the 2nd island is deffinitely helpful at times (i played someone with B2B main deck).
In that rare case that someone lands an early pithing needle, isn't it just safer to go with a 2/2 split with your fetches? Also, your old list ran more fetches to get basics and it helped attain thresh earlier.
I do like the Predict idea as I did have times that I wished I had thresh and didn't, but the added counterspell in spell snare is VERY helpful (goyf, survival, standstill, painter, many other aggro creatures).
I like the added Daze as I keep trying to fit it in also. EE is deffinitely a good card under some scenarios, but I found it to be killing my creatures too often, so I also agree with removing it.
The other reason I wanted to try a list without cb/top is that tombstalker is a major beating if you can't counter him outright. So my idea was to drop cb/top and possibly run more hardcounters. I may be way off here as I haven't tested the idea much more than goldfishing. Thanks for the help.

[Adan]

Love that list!

The only thing I wonder is if you should really go down to 1 Island, because once Blood Moon is in play you can't cast Swans or CB anymore. Do you side them out in a MU where you bring in Moon, or do you rely on playing them before putting Moon on the table?

My suggestion would simply be
-1 Tropical Island
+1 basic Island

Oh. You are right. That suggestion would be correct.

I play 17 Lands because I am used to it. I always played 17 Lands. That 1 land less is compensated by Predict as it let you draw into more lands if needed. Since it's also a mid-/lategame card, 2 is an acceptable amount. Even in the earlygame it's good because because it fuels your graveyard to make Mongoose slightly better (It's still slow in this build, though).

Splitting the Blue fetches can be done if you are afraid of people annoying you with Needles. Otherwise it doesn't matter how you split your blue fetches.^^

ALWAYS 4 Daze. This has - for me - become some kind of a Threshold-Dogma. You always want Daze as early as possible. You also want to have better odds in having Daze 1st Turn when playing Ponder. It's still essential in the mirrormatch as well as against Goblins or other decks that are fast.

And having no Explosives in the Sb. I don't know what is wrong about that, I actually never played it in Threshold. I prefer Pithing Needle. Engineered Explosives might be useful against tokens (Ichorid and TES/Belcher), but Pyroclasm has got the same effect. But if you want to play Explosives, cut the Clasms for it. i agree that Explosives are in general more versatile than Clasm.

edit:

Taurelin was right, the manabase should look like this:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [A] Island (1)
3 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Volcanic Island
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [B] Forest (1)

edit2: I guess you should play Explosives over Clasm as it can also rape Dreadnoughts. And it's another out against Aether Vial.

[Sage]

I guess I have one more question...

How does this deck deal with Tombstalker?

[Adan]

I guess I have one more question...

How does this deck deal with Tombstalker?

Phew.

1) Counter him

2) Race him by attacking when your boardposition is advantageous and then throwing burn to your opponent's head

3) Throw burnspells on Tombstalker when he blocks a 3/3 Nimble Mongoose or something.

4) Play Swans and combo

[Omega]

or you can daze your own Sensei's or Counterbalance to make your goyfs bigger than 4/5

Robert

[Valdez]

Phew.

1) Counter him

2) Race him by attacking when your boardposition is advantageous and then throwing burn to your opponent's head

3) Throw burnspells on Tombstalker when he blocks a 3/3 Nimble Mongoose or something.

4) Play Swans and combo

5) predict top and/or balance when he blocks goyf.

6) cut Predict for rushing river.

[rsaunder]

So I piloted a very traditional Thrash list to a 4-3 finish yesterday at the source tournament. I lost two matches to bad luck (i.e., no creatures whatsoever against gobs) against ThatKidYouHate as well as another goblins player whose name I don't remember (sorry...) and one to John, mostly because he's just a good survival player. I 2-1'd the mirror round 2, 2-0'd Anwar with TES round 4, 2-1'd survival round 5, and 2-0'd goblins round 6. The only MB changes I made were -2 Fire/Ice, +2 Counterspell. The SB was:

3 Crypt
2 Kgrip
3 Needle
2 EE
3 REB
2 BEB

Honestly, I loved the 5 blasts, they came in handy against everything all day. I did not like the rushing rivers though, I sided them out every single game. Completely useless.

Admittedly I didn't play against any deck with something like humility that I would need to bounce, but I just don't think they're worth the MB room. If I had to do it again, they'd either be 2x Predator or 1x Fire/Ice & 1x Counterspell.

[Sage]

I know Adan disagrees with taking out cb/top, but I did and was very pleased. In those 6 slots I added Daze #4, Spell Snare #3, and 4xCounterspell. I went 4-2-1 with it and ended the day at 25th. One loss was due to mana screw in round 3, witch my opponent said that i had it if i had just cast any threat earlier. My tie was actually to Ichorid in Round 5, lol. We went to turns in G3 and if i had had 1-2 more turns, i had this one also. My seccond loss was in round 6 to goblins. I made a few play mistakes in this one as I was exhausted from no luch or water for like 9hrs. G1 i played swans on turn 4 with chain in my hand for the win (no threats on his side of the board-should have waited) next turn and he played warren weirding (god i hate that card). I had spell snare in hand-ouch. G2, all i needed was one pyroclasm (3 sided in) and i would have probably taken this game also, but to no avail.

Overall, i love the extra hardcounters. I was sick of loosing to tombstalker and ended up countering him with counterspell like 3 times through the day. My opponents found counterspell good enough to extirpate them twice. I also had threshold much quicker than usual and it made the difference a couple times (once facing another goose). I personally felt, had i not punted round 6, i had game against any deck in the tourney and would have fared well in the T8.

I also took the blood moons out of the board and i think it was a mistake. I don't know what i would have taken back out for them, as EE was awsome when i needed it (ichorid). But, b-moon would have wrecked this field. Everyone keeps stretching for so many colors, that moon would have easily won me a few games had i been able to set it up. Alas, i didn't want to be color screwed by it so i didn't run it. I really think that moon effects are good, but everyone seems to be stretching into more colors as it seems to be better to stretch than to play the spoiler and run magus/b-moon.

Edit: I was playing Swan Thresh (I called it ContraThresh-controll thresh-4xCounterspell, lol)

[Taurelin]

After playtesting a fairly standard build of SwanThresh (with CounterTop) I increasingly find Nimble Mongoose weak. The reasons are that with a high number of permanents it is quite an effort to reach Threshold, which leaves Mongoose lying around uselessly for longer periods of time.

Another thing is that I somehow prefer to do different things in the early turns than play a 1/1 critter, for example get CounterTop on the table, play Ponder and Brainstorm to dig for better threats/answers etc.

I would like to know if you can recommend or discourage the idea of removing Mongoose from the deck entirely and substituting it with other creatures. What comes to my mind are (in no particular order)
- Trygon Predator
- Sea Drake
- Serendib Efreet
- Magus of the Moon (!?)

Apart from their bigger stats and useful (some) abilities, here are some more arguments for doing this:
- you can bait removal (no shroud), thus having a better chance that Goofy and Swans stick
- you get a smoother manacurve, with more CC3 cards for CB (answers Deed, Shackles, Vindicate, Cunning Wish and many more)
- EE @1 doesn't hurt at all anymore

What do you think? Possible, meta-dependent, risky or garbage?

[Damnosus]

@Taurelin: I have just recently picked up the deck and I will have to agree that I have found the goose to be a bit lacking as I often cannot get threshold fast enough. That being said, I don't think it is goose's fault necessarily: I am playing Nihil Credo's list (not sure if it is current) with the 2x spell snare, and I think they might be the problem. While I will acknowledge the fact that spell snare is definitely a good card, especially in a developed meta, I find myself holding on to it too often (my meta is not all that developed). Thus I am leaning towards replacing them with predicts. I feel that predicts, coupled with Bstorm and Tops, will not only help as additional card draw, but also as a means to power goose up more quickly.

As for the other creatures you mentioned, my take is as follows:

Predator: great card, but when the opponent doesn't have art/ench in play, its a 2/3 for 3 that flies, which is ok, but it still dies to bolt.

Sea Drake: Heavy hitter, but I would be afraid of its drawback in thresh as an early one can slow you down a lot (and you need those lands for daze), and all it takes is a single mana to pop it. The reason it is so good in fairie stompy is that it can be powered out so quickly, and is a beast with equipment. Thresh doesn't have/can't do either.

Efreet: Not totally sure what to say about this one. It is fat, but is just not as effective as it cannot be powered out super quickly.

Magus: Makes the deck too meta dependent, plus it screws yourself over as well. Maybe in the side instead of blood moon, but not maindecked.

The nice thing about goose is that you can play it first turn (which is great against a first turn lackey when you don't have a bolt), and it's shroud is card advantage to an extent as the opponent is left with dead cards in their hand.

As I said though, I am pretty new to this deck (hell I still have it a little proxied :frown: ), so I am sure there are plenty of people that could give you a better answer.

[MULocke]

Simply put, Mongoose is how you beat landstill. They have swords with counter backup to take care of goyf, but have a very hard time with the goose. Basically, they have to resovle and not get stifled an EE on it. I know this is more for tempo thresh, as basically all my wins against landstill have come with mongoose, but the principle is the same for most other MU's. He's an untargetable beatstick, an answer to goblin lackey, and he fills out your curve so you can play your business spells later. I think he's just way too good to remove. Just curious, how many fetches do you run? I think swans should be at 8, so you help fill the yard faster (and they fetch your basics).

[Taurelin]

Predator: great card, but when the opponent doesn't have art/ench in play, its a 2/3 for 3 that flies, which is ok, but it still dies to bolt.

Right, but I'd rather have the Predator bolted/smothered/StoPed than Swans (Bolt = Ancestral), and as long as Mongoose is lying there, their removal just waits in their hand.



The nice thing about goose is that you can play it first turn (which is great against a first turn lackey when you don't have a bolt), and it's shroud is card advantage to an extent as the opponent is left with dead cards in their hand.

Correct. In my meta Goblins are almost extinct, though. And with FoW and Bolt we still have 8 answers MD on the Draw, with Goofy, Daze + Chains 11 more on the play. And I also run Pyroclasm instead of EE in the SB at the moment.



Simply put, Mongoose is how you beat landstill.


Hm. You can stifle EE as much as you want. With their recursion stuff (Academy Ruins) it's only temporary. Predator also helps vs Deed, because once active they have to play and activate it the same turn (6 mana, 7 with Daze).

What about Blood Moon as a SB surprise?



He's an untargetable beatstick,

I'd say untargettable Weenie, but right.


Just curious, how many fetches do you run? I think swans should be at 8, so you help fill the yard faster (and they fetch your basics).

True. At the moment I run 7, I might up the count. However, I don't like fetching too often, because once you have Countertop active, you dont want to shuffle and rearrange all the time.

For clearer reference, here's my present list:

//Lands
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Blue Fetchlands
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Island
1 Forest

//Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Swans of Bryn Argoll
3 Trygon Predator (<- still experimenting)

//Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Chain of Plasma
2 Rushing River (<- could be Spell Snare / Predict)
1 Lightning Storm

//Sideboard
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pyroclasm
3 Blood Moon
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pithing Needle

[Adan]

After playtesting a fairly standard build of SwanThresh (with CounterTop) I increasingly find Nimble Mongoose weak. The reasons are that with a high number of permanents it is quite an effort to reach Threshold, which leaves Mongoose lying around uselessly for longer periods of time.

PREDICT!!!111oneoneone


Another thing is that I somehow prefer to do different things in the early turns than play a 1/1 critter, for example get CounterTop on the table, play Ponder and Brainstorm to dig for better threats/answers etc.

What keeps you from doing that? 1st Turn Ponder has got priority over Nimble Mongoose most of the time. Except in the Goblin matchup, but there it is also dependant whether you are on the play or draw.


I would like to know if you can recommend or discourage the idea of removing Mongoose from the deck entirely and substituting it with other creatures. What comes to my mind are (in no particular order)
- Trygon Predator
- Sea Drake
- Serendib Efreet
- Magus of the Moon (!?)

Apart from their bigger stats and useful (some) abilities, here are some more arguments for doing this:
- you can bait removal (no shroud), thus having a better chance that Goofy and Swans stick
- you get a smoother manacurve, with more CC3 cards for CB (answers Deed, Shackles, Vindicate, Cunning Wish and many more)
- EE @1 doesn't hurt at all anymore

Those creatures need a bunch of turns to have a good setup. May it be fetching the right lands to not screw yourself with Magus, having brainstorm or Counter-Top when playing Sea Drake... and the others are mediocre.

They make the deck incredibly slow. I'd really not recommend it. I run 17 lands to have space for at least 2 Predicts so I can dig for more cards which eventually land in teh grave, too. Nimble Mongeese were always the reason why I always disagreed with Nihil on his 2 Spell Snares (I never said that before since Spell Snare is without a question a good card, but I prefer the cardadvantage). Hell, I'd run Mental Note if it wouldn't be so random. But I might try it. But Predict allows you to go down to 17 lands.

[Misobizo]

I would like to know if you can recommend or discourage the idea of removing Mongoose from the deck entirely and substituting it with other creatures. What comes to my mind are (in no particular order)
- Trygon Predator
- Sea Drake
- Serendib Efreet
- Magus of the Moon (!?)

One argument that has not been raised yet : if you replace Mongoose, the new guy needs to be able to cope with chain of plasma in your deck, in case your opponent chooses to copy I when you burn one of his threats.

Only Serendib passes the test.

[Adan]

One argument that has not been raised yet : if you replace Mongoose, the new guy needs to be able to cope with chain of plasma in your deck, in case your opponent chooses to copy I when you burn one of his threats.

Only Serendib passes the test.

OMG, brilliance, he wins. So simple.

[Happy Gilmore]

Not playing Goose is aweful. I would go so far as to say that if you cut goose for Efreet in Swan thresh you should start a new thread, because it certainly doesn't belong here.

[Citrus-God]

5) predict top and/or balance when he blocks goyf.

6) cut Predict for rushing river.

Isn't 5 and 6 a little contradicting? First using Predict as a combat trick, then recommending that he cut Predict for Rushing River which sucks in slower decks like Swan Thresh which incorporates Counterbalance/Top and a more control plan. Especially when you do end up running cards like Top and Predict, you should be able to find a Chain of Plasma and a Swan by the time the opponent casts a Tombstalker so that you can combo out and win.

[Adan]

Isn't 5 and 6 a little contradicting? First using Predict as a combat trick, then recommending that he cut Predict for Rushing River which sucks in slower decks like Swan Thresh which incorporates Counterbalance/Top and a more control plan. Especially when you do end up running cards like Top and Predict, you should be able to find a Chain of Plasma and a Swan by the time the opponent casts a Tombstalker so that you can combo out and win.

Rushing River isn't that bad at all, but I still think that it doesn't fit to the deck's concept, though SwanThresh is a mishmash-pile that is able to play both an aggressive role or the controlish one (that's what I find so cool about SwanThresh).

The thing is, dependant on how the cards come from the top, you might fail playing one of those roles consequently.
Rushing River is a card that is meant to generate a huge speedadvantage by bouncing up to 2 permanents which is really mighty, but it costs 3 Mana and requires you to sacrafice a land. But sacrificing a land is completely contradictory to SwanThresh as you want to have constant landdrops to be able to combo out your opponent at any time where it seems necessary.

I have to add that my argumentation stated above might contradict with my 4-Daze-philosophy, but Daze doesn't "destroy" any of your lands, i.e. you won't lose landdrops as you can simply do them again.

I also never had problems with playing 17 lands, especially now where I have 3 basiclands, the landdrops become more consistent since the opponent won't be able to screw you so easily.

MAYBE I can try playing 18 lands, but then I'd have to cut Predicts and add the singleton Portent... And that's how my first build of SwanThresh looked like.

You could actually cut 1 Sensei's Divining Top, but when I played that in Heidelberg, I wasn't really satisfied with that:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=17953

[Citrus-God]

Rushing River isn't that bad at all, but I still think that it doesn't fit to the deck's concept, though SwanThresh is a mishmash-pile that is able to play both an aggressive role or the controlish one (that's what I find so cool about SwanThresh).

You could use it to bounce Counterbalance on your opponent's EOT and then combo out on your main phase. I totally forgot about that! Sadly, I see Krosan Grip being better because it's usually not expected Game 1 and people set up Top/CB differently and also It's the Fear is on the rise which means Krosan Grip will be quite important.

[Taurelin]

Rushing River isn't that bad at all, but I still think that it doesn't fit to the deck's concept, ...

Rushing River is a card that is meant to generate a huge speedadvantage by bouncing up to 2 permanents which is really mighty, but it costs 3 Mana and requires you to sacrafice a land. But sacrificing a land is completely contradictory to SwanThresh as you want to have constant landdrops to be able to combo out your opponent at any time where it seems necessary.


The last point is very true. This is also a reason why I feel more secure with 18 instead of 17 lands. However, once Swans are on the table (>= 4 lands in play), it is possible to use River with kicker, because you can use Chains EOT and complete the combo in your own turn. For which 3 lands are enough.

Btw, I see Rushing River's function a bit differenty. Rushing River is a maindeck answer to problematic permanents that got through our (holey) counterwall, such as Humility, Tombstalker, Dreadnought, Shackles, Chalice and so on. Of course, to serve this purpose, any random bounce-spell would suffice (Wipe Away would be ok, too, I guess). But River has the additional advantages of offering the speed by its kicker and the fact that CC3 is quite difficult to hit by an opponent's Counterbalance.

All in all, I would say that this flexibility of River serves the deck's concept very well.

[kiwi]

Swan Threshold has got 2 or 3 open slots, what about to playing magus of the moon in the main ? This option would give us more open slots in the sideboard.

Remember that if we have magus of the moon in the hand and its bad for us we can put magus of the moon in the top of the library with brainstorm and we can shuffle the library with a fetch or we can can use senseis for avoid to draw it.

[Adan]

Swan Threshold has got 2 or 3 open slots, what about to playing magus of the moon in the main ? This option would give us more open slots in the sideboard.

Remember that if we have magus of the moon in the hand and its bad for us we can put magus of the moon in the top of the library with brainstorm and we can shuffle the library with a fetch or we can can use senseis for avoid to draw it.

Terrible anti-synergy with Chain of Plasma -> denied!

And shuffling it away with Brainstorm is true for Spell Snare, Rushing River and Predict as well. Avoid drawing it with SDT is also terrible because you will always have 1 dead card pushing around in the top 3 cards and you have to invest 1 mana every turn to avoid drawing it. Not to mention that additional copies of Counterbalances and SDTs are already a pain in the ass, especially if you are not running Predict to turn those dead cards into CA.

[Swing4Five]

Terrible anti-synergy with Chain of Plasma -> denied!

Am I missing something? What's the anti-synergy? You have more :r: around with a Magus on the table.

[Afro]

Am I missing something? What's the anti-synergy? You have more :r: around with a Magus on the table.

My guess is that your opponent can discard a card to chain to kill the Magus.

[Shriekmaw]

I don't see how Swan Threshold is even viable because the only deck that I actually see make consistent Top 8's is Canadian Threshold.

Everyone talks about Swan Threshold, but no one seems to do well with it.

[Taurelin]

All generalizations are bad!



1 Libkin, Eugen 6/5/1/0 MUC
2 Kimpel, Alexander 5/4/1/1 NQGw
3 Rosinski, Dennis 6/5/0/0 GBwr Survival
4 Volk, Philipp 6/5/0/0 RG Beatz
5 Steinecke, Michael 6/5/0/0 UWbärenmarke
6 Baatz, Pascal 6/5/0/0 SwanThresh
7 Boness, Michel-Andrej 6/4/1/0 MonoR Goblins
8 Schöpel, Clemens 6/4/0/0 4c Control


www.is-magic.de

Iserlohn is one of the most respected monthly Legacy-tournaments in Germany. These results are from 5th Oct 08 (59 players)

[Adan]

I don't see how Swan Threshold is even viable because the only deck that I actually see make consistent Top 8's is Canadian Threshold.

Everyone talks about Swan Threshold, but no one seems to do well with it.

Me: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=17953

Fabian: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18756

Nihil: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19301

Shugyosha: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20281

All in a chronological order. At least something.

[Jaiminho]

Me: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=17953

Fabian: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18756

Nihil: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19301

Shugyosha: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20281

All in a chronological order. At least something.

Missing Avatar of Light in the last MTGSal tourney, which had 53 players, here (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20257).

[Avatar of Light]

Missing Avatar of Light in the last MTGSal tourney, which had 53 players, here (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20257).

My list was basically Nihil's but -2x Spell Snare +1 Daze +1 Misdirection. I've since changed to 2 Spell Snare, but looking at Predict and the 4th Daze. Needs moar testing.

[Shugyosha]

There are much more people playing Canadian Thresh than Swanthresh. With Canadian Thresh a Wasteland and/or Stifle sometimes wins the game on its own. The power of Swanthresh is not that easy to see. I myself needed a kick from a teammate to play it again.
I think the discussion about it is because there are always 2-3 slots open and its difficult to find the best cards. I switch them nearly every time I play the deck and havn't found cards I'm satisfied with.
Canadian Threshold is pretty much stable with a bit of discussion over Counterspell, which apppeared to be a meta call.


Btw. anyone feel free to check my blog (link in my sig) for a tourney report of the 6th place finish. [/shameless advertisement]

[Shriekmaw]

One of the main argurments that I have against Swan Threshold is that you have to resolve a 4 mana spell in order to win. I'm not a fan of resolving such a huge spell when the deck it build on a mana curve of 2. I believe the deck can be good, but I believe its too inconsistent for that very reason.

I think it you want to play Threshold, then there are better lists out there. The main argurment to play Threshold in the first place is because of consistency and the balance matchups across the board. Swan Threshold goes against this very principal which makes it inferior in my opinion.

[Jaiminho]

One of the main argurments that I have against Swan Threshold is that you have to resolve a 4 mana spell in order to win. I'm not a fan of resolving such a huge spell when the deck it build on a mana curve of 2. I believe the deck can be good, but I believe its too inconsistent for that very reason.

This deck doesn't need Swan to win. If it actually did, it would be horrible and wouldn't win more than 1 every 6 games, which is about the rate you use Swans to combo. This is regular CB Threshold with reach and the possibility of having a 4/3 almost indestructible (not so good, considering he will concede CA with this) flyer (not a big deal) that produces Ancestral Recalls for you (very big deal) and infinite-draw combo (not so much of a deal, since it's more like an accidental win-con).

[Adan]

One of the main argurments that I have against Swan Threshold is that you have to resolve a 4 mana spell in order to win. I'm not a fan of resolving such a huge spell when the deck it build on a mana curve of 2. I believe the deck can be good, but I believe its too inconsistent for that very reason.

I think it you want to play Threshold, then there are better lists out there. The main argurment to play Threshold in the first place is because of consistency and the balance matchups across the board. Swan Threshold goes against this very principal which makes it inferior in my opinion.

That is completely wrong and proves that you failed at understanding the decks concept. Do you really think each of those players who Top8ed with it won all their games with the Combo? Would Nimble Mongeese and Goyf be really necessary then? Or Counterbalance?


This deck doesn't need Swan to win. If it actually did, it would be horrible and wouldn't win more than 1 every 6 games, which is about the rate you use Swans to combo. This is regular CB Threshold with reach and the possibility of having a 4/3 almost indestructible (not so good, considering he will concede CA with this) flyer (not a big deal) that produces Ancestral Recalls for you (very big deal) and infinite-draw combo (not so much of a deal, since it's more like an accidental win-con).

The Truth. <3

[Shriekmaw]

This deck doesn't need Swan to win. If it actually did, it would be horrible and wouldn't win more than 1 every 6 games, which is about the rate you use Swans to combo. This is regular CB Threshold with reach and the possibility of having a 4/3 almost indestructible (not so good, considering he will concede CA with this) flyer (not a big deal) that produces Ancestral Recalls for you (very big deal) and infinite-draw combo (not so much of a deal, since it's more like an accidental win-con).


I think your correct when you say the deck doesn't need Swan to win, but the deck is built around the card. The main focus is getting the creature into play and winning from there. You can always win the game by having Tarmogoyfs go the distance, but any Threshold deck can do that.

I believe Canadian Threshold has more ways to win than Swan Threshold, which makes it the better deck. I think thats one of the reasons why not too many people picked Swan over the versions of Threshold you can play.

[Adan]

I think your correct when you say the deck doesn't need Swan to win, but the deck is built around the card.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

The core is still the Hatfields' Moonthresh. Whether you play Dragons and Moons or the Swancombo doesn't affect the decks consistency, it gives you alternative ways to win due to the increased amount of burnspells and the combo-finish at the cost of some disruption (i.e. no Needles, no MB Moons)


I believe Canadian Threshold has more ways to win than Swan Threshold, which makes it the better deck. I think thats one of the reasons why not too many people picked Swan over the versions of Threshold you can play.

So what alternative way has canadian Thresh to win except being aggressive and tempo-oriented? Can it EFFICIENTLY play a control-role? I don't guess so.

Don't get me wrong, canadian Thresh is a very good deck, I played it myself and it's a very aggressive variant, making it strong, but it still gives me the creeps when people fail at analyzing certain decks and then build their arguments around superficial impressions.

[Shugyosha]

One of the main argurments that I have against Swan Threshold is that you have to resolve a 4 mana spell in order to win. I'm not a fan of resolving such a huge spell when the deck it build on a mana curve of 2.

Fledgeling Dragon and Mystic Enforcer are even harder to cast and are still played (although Dragon has been replaced mostly). Have you even considered that Swan is a power 4 flyer and can actually end games by itself. The same holds true for the burn spells.

The combo win is actually pretty rare. You usually win at least 4-6 games without it for every game with Chain on Swan. But the games I won by comboing would have been lost otherwise most of the times.

[Damnosus]

While I do not really get to test that much (schoolwork+lame people who either don't like playing legacy, or who just aren't that good=me often sitting and wishing I could test), I would like to offer my two cents regarding a couple of things.

First in the debate of Canadian Thresh vs. Swan Thresh: while both are definitely viable, if I wanted to play tempo, I would probably skip over Canadian Thresh and go straight for Team America (I kinda consider it a Black tempo thresh). I just feel like Team America not only has more and better forms of tempo, but also better ways to capitalize on it (Tombstalker). Swan thresh I find to be really fun and interesting simply because it is one of the few decks that is aggro/control/combo: it is incredibly versatile, making it great for an unknown meta. To each his own I guess.

Second, and more importantly, I want to take a stab at trying to figure out those last couple of slots in the swan thresh list. Initially I tried out Nihil Credo's list with the 2x spellsnare. Needless to say, I didn't like them: they were often dead draws later on, pointless against a couple of decks, and prevented me from achieving threshold quickly enough (many a mongoose died in the testing of that list...).

In the hopes of making that slot mean something, I moved on to 2x predict. I like these better, but I am really feeling the inability to deal with many of my opponent's things, especially considering I only have 3x daze. Additionally I had one very unlucky game where I had the combo in hand along with the turns to pull it off if I found a bolt. Thus I went digging for it with a predict, and what did I happen to flip, but the lightning storm. Conclusion: predict relies too much on other cards to achieve its full potential.

So now I am looking for something that is proactive (meaning I can use it without reacting to my opponent's plays-so i can get thresh if I want or wait until later), not a terrible late game topdeck, and isn't dependent on the rest of the deck too much. The two cards I am leaning towards are Rushing River and Wipe Away (as many of you have already suggested). They seem to fit all three categories, as well as upping the 3cc slot for CounterTop. I guess my question is which is better?

The way I see it:
Wipe away Pros: 3cc+split second (means CounterTop won't be hitting it very often, and can't be countered, plus it can hit lands.
Cons: 1UU cc, plus it can only bounce one thing.

Rushing River: 3cc, only one U, can bounce two things.
Cons: can be countered/responded to, can't bounce lands.

I know you probably all know these things, I just wanted to spell out how I saw it in case any of you see something I do not. So which should I add? Or am I missing something in using predicts/spellsnares? Or maybe there is a completely different card?

[rockout]

Having the option to bounce two things with Rushing River is amazing and can put 2 cards in your graveyard (kicker cost land + instant.) Having an un-counterable bounce spell is good in a dreadstill/landstill/control meta, but not as good in an aggro heavy matchup. It really depends on your preference. I like Rushing River.

[Shugyosha]

i would simply run a 1/1 split between Wipe Away and Rushing River. You simply cannot predict if one card is better than the other in certain matchups. It always depends on the situation.
I ran them in the list I played in Iserlohn but they weren't needed but once (and it wasn't even that necessary).

I'm currently leaning towards:

A: 4th Daze, 4th Counterbalance, 18th Land

So the result will be a really straight list.

B: 18th Land, 2x Engineered Explosives

There are a lot of things Swanthresh can't reliably handle. Even with Bounce it needs Balance with the correct set-up. EE can handle most of this stuff but sadly not Humility. Sure it blows up your own stuff too, but it fits the (combo) gameplan much more than in traditional Threshold.

[Nihil Credo]

Trygon Predator is something else I had fiddled with, and provides most of what you're looking for - 3cc, proactive, handles annoying stuff (except Humility), even pitches to FoW.

[Shriekmaw]

i would simply run a 1/1 split between Wipe Away and Rushing River. You simply cannot predict if one card is better than the other in certain matchups. It always depends on the situation.
I ran them in the list I played in Iserlohn but they weren't needed but once (and it wasn't even that necessary).




I like the 1/1 spilt a lot in Canadian Threshold that I run. I can see the argurment of running 2 rushing rivers, but wipe away does win you games from time to time with the spilt second mechanic. I really think the bounce is very important to have main deck no matter if your playing Canadian Threshold or Swan Thresh.

The other point I would like to address is what is the best tempo deck in the format. I think its clearly Canadian Threshold b/c of all the ways you have to stop your opponent from doing anything. It starts with mana denial and continues with the counterspells that you play. Usually an early threat with backup is enough to take the game.

Team America has a cute name, but thats about it.

[Damnosus]

The other point I would like to address is what is the best tempo deck in the format. I think its clearly Canadian Threshold b/c of all the ways you have to stop your opponent from doing anything. It starts with mana denial and continues with the counterspells that you play. Usually an early threat with backup is enough to take the game.

Team America has a cute name, but thats about it.

How is this different to Team America? They appear to have the same amount of mana denial (both have wastelands, stifles, and whereas one has fire//ice, the other has sinkhole-while one is more versitile, the other doesn't just last for a turn). Additionally, they both have counterspells. The difference lies in the rest of the cards.

I feel that TA is better able to capitalize on its tempo due to it having larger creatures, as well as creatures that easily get around CounterTop, and creatures that have evasion (tombstalker). Additionally, TA has hand disruption which allows for an even bigger disruption package. Canadian Thresh has burn, which is fantastic, but isn't super great at getting rid of opposing goyfs/bigger things, and can get hit pretty hard by CounterTop. TA has better tempo creature kill in the form of snuff out.

So when it comes to tempo thresh, I would probably go with TA.

[Mental]

How is this different to Team America? They appear to have the same amount of mana denial (both have wastelands, stifles, and whereas one has fire//ice, the other has sinkhole-while one is more versitile, the other doesn't just last for a turn). Additionally, they both have counterspells. The difference lies in the rest of the cards.

I feel that TA is better able to capitalize on its tempo due to it having larger creatures, as well as creatures that easily get around CounterTop, and creatures that have evasion (tombstalker). Additionally, TA has hand disruption which allows for an even bigger disruption package. Canadian Thresh has burn, which is fantastic, but isn't super great at getting rid of opposing goyfs/bigger things, and can get hit pretty hard by CounterTop. TA has better tempo creature kill in the form of snuff out.

So when it comes to tempo thresh, I would probably go with TA.
Personally I think that TA lacks the burn to finish what it starts often -- when it runs out of steam it does not have the reach to still win. In addition, Thrash plays Nimble Mongoose, which is really, IMO, better than Tombstalker in this format. It's cheaper, easier to cast, and you don't have to waste counters to protect it. Thrash does get hit pretty hard by CBTop, but your thresh MU is still decent, I'm going to say no worse than TA's, because Stifle wrecks thresh as does wasteland. But it's probably a meta choice.

[Shugyosha]

Trygon Predator is something else I had fiddled with, and provides most of what you're looking for - 3cc, proactive, handles annoying stuff (except Humility), even pitches to FoW.

Yeah I played it a while ago and I think its awful. I mean its really good in other Threshold builds but in Swanthresh I don't want another clunky creature that is bad on the defense. It will also die to a copied Chain of Plasma which is a minor point but still a reason not to run it.

Another thing I can't quite figure out is: What do I need in the board against Landstill. I tried Blood Moon and Price of Progress but wasn't satisfied. To much set-up for (often) minor impact or simply too narrow. Currently I'm testing Needles (in addition to Pyroblast and Grip). Are there any other good hate cards I forgot? Winter Orb hurts the own game plan and B2B demands to take the whole combo out which is rather bad for its impact.

[Mordel]

Shugyosha: Winter Orb shouldn't hurt too much unless you are really focusing on the combo kill.


So, I actually googled this and I couldn't find any answers really and I also did a quick search on forums too:

The difference between Canadian Thresh and normal, more "historical" builds is a focus on tempo by stifle, wasteland, md spellsnares and fire/ice as opposed to bunches of cantrips? That is at least what I got out of comparing lists. Sorry for the threshnewb question, it has just been bugging me and this is probably the best place to ask.

Also, there may be an answer contained in the seventy-nine pages of this thread, but I would rather not read all of them, though I did read through the first twenty or so.

Anyway, sorry again for the scrubby question.

[kabal]

S
So, I actually googled this and I couldn't find any answers really and I also did a quick search on forums too:

The difference between Canadian Thresh and normal, more "historical" builds is a focus on tempo by stifle, wasteland, md spellsnares and fire/ice as opposed to bunches of cantrips?

Summer 2007 list
===========
Brainstorm
Counterspell
Daze
Fledgling Dragon
Flooded Strand
Force of Will
Forest
Island
Lightning Bolt
Nimble Mongoose
Pithing Needle
Polluted Delta
Portent
Predict
Sensei's Divining Top
Serum Visions
Tarmogoyf
Tropical Island
Volcanic Island
Wooded Foothills

Summer 2008 list (Tempo Thrash)
============
Brainstorm
Daze
Fire / Ice
Flooded Strand
Force of Will
Lightning Bolt
Nimble Mongoose
Polluted Delta
Ponder
Rushing River
Spell Snare
Stifle
Tarmogoyf
Tropical Island
Volcanic Island
Wasteland

Diff =>
-Counterspell
-Fledgling Dragon
+Fire / Ice
-Forest
-Island
-Pithing Needle
-Portent
-Predict
-Sensei's Divining Top
-Serum Visions
+Ponder
+Rushing River
+Spell Snare
+Stifle
-Wooded Foothills
+Wasteland

[Mordel]

So minus the exact cards that were replaced, I'll assume what I stated concerning tempo is the difference between the two? Gotcha.

[Shugyosha]

Shugyosha: Winter Orb shouldn't hurt too much unless you are really focusing on the combo kill.

The combo kill is more or less dead then so I would board it out anyways when Orb comes in. Balance Top has to stay in though and Orb hurts your Top considerably.

[Damnosus]

So yea, I have been playing a pretty standard Swan Thresh list lately, and I gotta say I have been getting pretty discouraged. Outside of tournaments (which I have not been able to take the deck to yet), I tend to play with my friends who don't really have legacy decks (it's pretty casual). Considering that this is one of the top tier decks in the legacy format, I kinda figured that I would have a good matchup against most things. The first one I played against was a mono-black reanimator deck which I won against only once in 4-5 games. Then later I played against a slightly upgraded fires of yavimaya deck which also beat me 3 games to 1. Mind you, I tend to not mulligan as much when playing casually, and I don't use my sideboard in such games (which may be the sole reason that I had such a hard time against said decks).

So my conclusions on this are thus: either I don't fully understand how to play this deck yet (which is understandable considering I have only recently picked it up), or this is one of those decks that only does well in an advanced metagame. I mean how does this deck do against random jank? I am wondering this because I most often play in local tournaments where there isn't an advanced metagame, and I really don't want to lose to jank with such an expensive deck.

Does anyone have any thoughts? Are my worries warranted? I can give more information if necessary.

[klaus]

So yea, I have been playing a pretty standard Swan Thresh list lately, and I gotta say I have been getting pretty discouraged. Outside of tournaments (which I have not been able to take the deck to yet), I tend to play with my friends who don't really have legacy decks (it's pretty casual). Considering that this is one of the top tier decks in the legacy format, I kinda figured that I would have a good matchup against most things. The first one I played against was a mono-black reanimator deck which I won against only once in 4-5 games. Then later I played against a slightly upgraded fires of yavimaya deck which also beat me 3 games to 1. Mind you, I tend to not mulligan as much when playing casually, and I don't use my sideboard in such games (which may be the sole reason that I had such a hard time against said decks).
So my conclusions on this are thus: either I don't fully understand how to play this deck yet (which is understandable considering I have only recently picked it up), or this is one of those decks that only does well in an advanced metagame. I mean how does this deck do against random jank? I am wondering this because I most often play in local tournaments where there isn't an advanced metagame, and I really don't want to lose to jank with such an expensive deck.
Considering your disappointing casual experience you answered part of the reasons yourself. UGR-Swans Thresh IS a deck that was developed to win in a competitive environment, meaning it needs to use its SB to be really good.
Some cards that tend to suck in casual metas:
- Stifle ("no fetchies, damn...")
- Wasteland ("only basics" damnit!)
- Daze ("I couldnt disrupt your mana base? Damn Daze!")
- Spellsnare ("only 3 of your spells cost 2?!" meh.)
Bottom line being: Yeah, you'd have to bastardize your deck to make it work better in your environment.



Does anyone have any thoughts? Are my worries warranted? I can give more information if necessary.
Well, if your primary goal is to beat your meta, and want to know how, it'd in fact be helpful if you posted the usual suspects.

[PhanTom_lt]

I also tended to lose with any kind of Threshold against any kind of Standard or Extended decks. It is not built to attack those kinds of decks. SwanThresh performs very good in a normal meta though.

[Taurelin]

If you play SwanThresh against random-junk, another problem is that Counterbalance doesn't have such an impact. Counterbalance is meant to neutralize StoP, Smother and similar removal, for example. If your opponent plays Dark Banishing, instead, you might get into trouble.

The advantage of SwanThresh is then the possibility of the combo kill, since you might simply be faster than those strategies.

[Shugyosha]

The advantage of SwanThresh is then the possibility of the combo kill, since you might simply be faster than those strategies.

That's exactly the way you beat the "random jank" (I use this term but I don't like it) you will eventually meet at tournaments, too. Swanthresh combines Aggro/Control of Threshold with a combo playstyle. When facing decks which are resistant to your aggro/control style you have to switch gears. When playing for the combo you have to keep different hands, play less aggressively with your creatures and burn and you have to plan your two comboturns well because you usually only have one try. With a decent starting hand, its not that hard against decks that can't disrupt you with counters or discard but Crytic Command for example is a beating...

[jazzykat]

Every week I play in a jank meta and time after time my counterbalance ranges from OK, to useless. Klaus hit the nail on the head. However on the topic of Daze, I feel that it is slightly more useful than he let on because normally their cards cost a million mana. The down side to that is that if they wait 1 more turn which is usually all it takes as they often have a million land in the deck in a properly built "cool dudes" deck then they pay for Daze.

I can't tell you how many times Cyrptic Command ruined my day in the late game, when someone was playing a standard deck in a Legacy tournament.

In a jank meta I think you need to be more aggressive in your build and playstyle because if you sit around for their "bad spells" to be cast you just may get hit with a massive hell bent Demonfire or Quagnoth!

[Damnosus]

Ok so I finally got to play SwanThresh at my local tourney. As I mentioned before, I was a little down about it cause it was losing to what I considered to be inferior decks. Since my meta is pretty janky, I was a little worried that I would get creamed because SwanThresh is not really meant for lower grade metas. I used Nihil Credo's list (minus the two spell snares, +1 wipe away, +1 rushing river). This also was one of the smaller tournaments-probably because of the holiday-so it was definitely less competitive. This is what happened (mind you I don't take notes, so this is gonna be very short as I don't totally remember everything):

Round 1: Boros (sort of-more like burn with white creatures).
Game 1: I take some burn hits, used my burn as removal, and eventually I got two threshed Geese out for beat down.
-My sideboard is pretty crappy at the moment. I cannot find any more pyroclasms (I swear I had like 5 at some point in my life) for some stupid reason. Thus I sideboard in my one clasm for a CoP.
Game 2: she gets stuck on 2 mountains, and I proceed to get counter/top (only game that this was really effective) which prevents her from doing anything once she does get some white mana. I win pretty easily.
-After the game I looked through her deck and made some suggestions. She was running 10 mountains and 7 plains, while having silver knights and soltari priests: I suggested she switch the ratio. I even traded an Isamaru for a countryside crusher to help her out (I know I got screwed a little, but hey, I wasn't using it, and I think it will help her deck a bit).

Record: 1-0
Games: 2-0

Round 2: Boros (wth??? This was at least more boros like-more ravnica cards and such).
Game 1: He gets some critters out that I can't initially deal with, so he gets me down pretty low. I however manage to stabilize and I come back to win.
-Sideboard: my single stupid clasm for a CoP:mad:.
Game 2: Same sort of thing as above, except he gets me even lower. If he had drawn burn on the turn before I killed him, I would have died.

Record: 2-0
Games: 4-0

Round 3: Meathooks
Game 1: I begin by forcing his turn one vial, then I proceeded to draw almost ever single burn spell I have and I wipe out all of his slivers (never got a crystaline), and then beat him down.
-Sideboard: I had no idea what to do with this one so I wound up siding in 2 grips (for vials), 3x REB, 3x blood moon (I forget for what).
Game 2: Ok so this was my one huge play mistake of the tournament. I wind up playing a blood moon which resolved, thinking that I had already played the wooded foothills in my hand (which would have allowed me to grab the single forest), but no. I suck. So we both get hosed, until he gets some basics, and then builds an army that my single goyf can't handle. After the game he even showed me that he had three BEB, but he realized that the BM was hurting me more than him, so he didn't nuke it. Wow was that dumb :frown: .
Game 3: I get some early threats, and he is stuck on 2 underground seas with a very small hand (after a double force against a counterbalance). I proceed to land a BM and he scoops. Hooray for me for not sucking with BM two times in a row.

Record: 3-0
Games: 6-1

Final Round: Mono Green Stompy (no berserks thankfully).
So I had been playing with this guy before the tournament started, and he beat me both times with his stompy deck, thus, I was pretty resigned to my fate coming into this match.
Game 1/2: I am pretty sure I won this one, but it kinda blurred with game 2. One of them I was able to handle things with my goyfs, and one game I wasn't. I wound up siding in a clasm/echoing truth against this in game 2.
Game 3: Things all came down to a timely bolt on a skyshround elite in response to a bounty of the hunt. The card disadvantage was what allowed me to stave off his attacks. Additionally, this was the only game in which I combo'ed off. While that might not warrant its inclusion, it was still really helpful as it allowed me to win sooner than I normally would have (which could have been really bad due to my lack of life). I am definitely liking the inclusion of it.

Record: 4-0
Games 8-2

So I wound up 4-0 in a jank arena, losing only two games (one of which was totally just a dumbass mistake). So I am definitely feeling more confident about the deck.

Thoughts on the deck when playing against jank: the only cards that I would consider changing for jank metas would be the counterbalances. That being said, it is a great card against those rare games when you play something really good. I don't think I will be changing things anytime soon.

[nitewolf9]

I proceed to land a BM and he scoops.

It was quite nice of him to clean up after you.


Yes. This post was very necessary.

[Damnosus]

It was quite nice of him to clean up after you.


Yes. This post was very necessary.

Ok that was horribly childish, and yet absolutely funny. I am still debating whether or not to edit it though (I did not make that jump when I was writing the post).

[Illissius]

Someone please explain this childish humor to me so that I may partake of its enjoyment.

[Nihil Credo]

Someone please explain this childish humor to me so that I may partake of its enjoyment.
Urbandictionary.com has saved me in many similar situations, and this was one of them.

[Damoxx]

It was quite nice of him to clean up after you.


Yes. This post was very necessary.

Here and I thought he was talking about the art on Tarmogoyf... :rolleyes:

[undone]

Which version of the deck is more popular? Tempo or combo?

Which version of the deck is better suited against aggro?

Can the combo version of this deck beat burn at all?

[Shugyosha]

Which version of the deck is more popular? Tempo or combo?

Depends. Overall Tempo is by far the most played red version of the deck at the moment. But in some metas there is a glaring absence of Tempo Threshold. Its not because the deck isn't good, people don't seem to like Tempo Thresh, don't see its strengh. I don't know.



Which version of the deck is better suited against aggro?

Depends on the aggro list. Balance is usually a beating against aggro decks but Tempo Thresh has enough burn as well an no clunky setup. Against Goblins Tempo Thresh is the shit.
As most aggro plays red at the moment SB Hydroblasts will help.



Can the combo version of this deck beat burn at all?

Repeat after me: Top and Balance will keep me out of trouble

I found it harder to win against Burn with Tempo Thresh than with Swan Thresh. But I consider the Burn matchup in Thresholds favor, granted you play 3-4 Hydroblasts SB.

[TheBez]

I am mainly a standard and extended player and am interested into making the jump into legacy. There is a Grand Prix in the local area in January and I am hoping to scrounge up funds to build this deck to play at GP events. I just had a few questions.

Is this the best version of this deck?

Why no love for Quirion Dryad?

Is nimble mongoose really that good?

Does someone have a skeleton of the deck?

Going into an unknown meta but expectng the best of the best seeing as it is a GP is there a correct sideboard?

If I can't scrounge up enough money for real dual will the Rav duals hinder the deck into unplayability?

Thanks for the help that I assume I will receive!

[Adan]

I am mainly a standard and extended player and am interested into making the jump into legacy. There is a Grand Prix in the local area in January and I am hoping to scrounge up funds to build this deck to play at GP events. I just had a few questions.

Is this the best version of this deck?

It can't be said as every build has got it's advantages and disadvantages. Even a build that seems optimal such as Hatfield's 5color Thresh has got a weakness (in this case the huge vulnerability to Blood Moon, B2B and recurring Wastelands).


Why no love for Quirion Dryad?

Because it comes into play as a shabby 1/1 and has to be grown. This either forces you to spare your cantrips or to play 4 of them. But since they are a shabby topdeck and can't trade with other creatures in a early state, they suck.


Is nimble mongoose really that good?

It's a 3/3 untouchable beater. The Shroud ability is still underestimated by a lot of people. But since they have Shroud, they can't be handled by removal and therefore are good blockers against Goblins or other Aggrodecks and very good attackers against controldecks.


Does someone have a skeleton of the deck?

4 Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Tropical Island
6-7 Fetchlands

And the rest is a matter of the splash and concept you choose, like:

Wasteland + Stifle <-> Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top

Burn <-> Swords to Plowshares

.
.
.

[Shriekmaw]

I am mainly a standard and extended player and am interested into making the jump into legacy. There is a Grand Prix in the local area in January and I am hoping to scrounge up funds to build this deck to play at GP events. I just had a few questions.

Is this the best version of this deck?

Why no love for Quirion Dryad?

Is nimble mongoose really that good?

Does someone have a skeleton of the deck?

Going into an unknown meta but expectng the best of the best seeing as it is a GP is there a correct sideboard?

If I can't scrounge up enough money for real dual will the Rav duals hinder the deck into unplayability?

Thanks for the help that I assume I will receive!



The best thing to do if you want to get into legacy and don't really know anything about the format is to start a thread in the community section of the website instead in the decks to beat thread.

This thread is mainly used to offer suggestions on the particular archtype that the thread is about.

[Taurelin]

I'm also concerned about the aggro-MU. Not necessarily Goblins, because they are less present than they used to be, and because Thresh/r has quite a bunch of removal spells and numerous ways to deal with 1st turn Lackey (12 on the draw, even more on the play!).

What I mean is
a) other tribes, such as Merfolk (annyoing with Islandwalk), but also
b) (Domain-)Zoo, which I meet more and more often.

So far I have been working with 2 SB-solutions.
First, Engineered Explosives, which are also nice to get rid of opponents' Tarmogoyfs and also hit non-creature stuff (Counterbalance, Chalice etc.). The disadvantage is that you also hit your own cards, and in the balanced version you play lots of permanents.
The second experiment was Pyroclasm, which is more universal vs small critters with various mana-costs, synergizes with your own Swans (!), but which doesn't help vs X/3 stuff like Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape and the like.

Several of my opponents suggested Firespout (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/205.html) in this slot. Only costs one mana more, has more reach, and can be directed situationally (e.g. let our own Mongoose live while killing all Faeries etc) with our colors.

Possible?

[TheBez]

And the rest is a matter of the splash and concept you choose, like:

Wasteland + Stifle <-> Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top

Burn <-> Swords to Plowshares

.
.
.

I know that I will be playing burn over StP. However going into GP events which do you deem better stifle/wasteland or countertop? Is it impossible to play both Countertop and stifle/waste?

[Adan]

I know that I will be playing burn over StP. However going into GP events which do you deem better stifle/wasteland or countertop? Is it impossible to play both Countertop and stifle/waste?

No clue, but theoretically speaking, I'd never to it as it mixes up 2 concepts which are contradictory to each other.

[Serbitar]

I was wondering if a Tempo Thresh player could elaborate some advantages that red Tempo Thresh has over Team America. The obvious difference would be the burn of course, but that seems to be the only angle one could make an argument in favour of red Thresh in terms of being a better tempo deck.

[Whit3 Ghost]

I was wondering if a Tempo Thresh player could elaborate some advantages that red Tempo Thresh has over Team America. The obvious difference would be the burn of course, but that seems to be the only angle one could make an argument in favour of red Thresh in terms of being a better tempo deck.
Burn providing reach, running more Counterspells so that you are able to play the control role better instead of straight tempo all the time, Nimble Mongoose is better than Tombstalker against Control for the most part, Pyroclasm against Goblins, Red Blasts out of the side against blue decks, universal answers game one in the form of bounce spells.

If you're having any trouble with Team America in your metagame, just sideboard Submerge. It's very solid against other Goyf.decs as well.

[rsaunder]

Burn providing reach.
This wins matches. Burn is just so amazing against almost everything either winning goyf battles or making it irrelavent that your opponent just stabilized.

Tempo Thresh also doesn't care as much about a resolved magus because it doesn't shut off our removal. Kinda helps it, really.

[b4r0n]

Question for the Tempo Thresh players: if you open up a hand containing Ponder and Stifle, do you play the Ponder or keep mana open for Stifle? What about a hand with Mongoose and Stifle? What factors contribute to your decision?

[Whit3 Ghost]

Question for the Tempo Thresh players: if you open up a hand containing Ponder and Stifle, do you play the Ponder or keep mana open for Stifle? What about a hand with Mongoose and Stifle? What factors contribute to your decision?
Stifle.

Always always always always always always. Unless you're playing against something that doesn't play fetches like Wombat.

[Henrik]

I play the ponder, unless I'm assuming my opponent is very inexperienced. He will never use his first turn fetch while you have an untapped island anyways, and then you just skipped a turn for noting. The ponder will provide your second land drop (possibly a wasteland for his first land), free counters, or a mongoose to play turn 2, then still with a mana open.

[spirit of the wretch]

I played NQG/r with Counterbalance for the last few tournaments (currently 14-1-0 in the last three tournaments). I started playing Swans Thresh and didn't like the combo package very much and I think the red Balance variant of Grow isn't getting enough attention here =)

So my list:

2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Trygon Predator

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Predict
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Engineered Explosives

-3 Price of Progress
-1 Krosan Grip
-4 Blue Elemental Blast
-3 Red Elemental Blast
-4 Pyroclasm

First off all: Why play this over any other Thresh build?

-Counterbalance is really a powerhouse!
-It's less clunky than Swan Thresh
-The red SB is just incredibly good (the only reson why I like this over the white build)
-Counterbalance
-The manabase is pretty solid
-Maindeck Predator are really nice
-Freaking Counterbalance, man =)

The big disadvantage is obviously the lack of Swords (or any hard removal really), but in my opinion the great SB makes up for it. I also don't like the manabases of the various 4/5C Thresh build with Aggro Loam beeing pretty popular here and a stable manabase beeing worth gold.

Enough with all the bragging, here come the questions:
For me the open slots in this deck are the two EE and the third Predict. Does anybody have a proposition, which cards to put in these slots? I already toyed around with Threads of Disloyality, F/I and Magma Jet and have never been quite satisfied. The cards should ideally have CC 2, for Counterbalance purposes.

[Willoe]

-4 Blue Elemental Blast
-3 Red Elemental Blast

I'm no Threshold player, and this might just be a small nitpick:

Why do people play ye olde Blasts over Pyroblast and Hydroblast? The fact that Pyroblast and Hydroblast can target permanents that aren't a specific color should make them strictly better since you can get an advantage when facing random decks with cards that dies when they get targeted. What is the advantage of running the old blasts? I just don't get it.

[Henrik]

Hmm cool deck.

Some questions:
-Have you considered/do you miss spell snare?
-When you say the SB makes up for the lack of hard removal, how do you mean? All I see is blasts and pyroclasm, which are all limited in their own way.
-Price of progress? Interesting, but can you please motivate?
-Only one krosan grip?


I don't really have any answer to your question, but if the lack of removal is something that's bothering you, try the good old all purpose bounce-spells. Rushing river and Wipe away, or even boomerang if you want it to be cmc2. Or perhaps counterspell?

[spirit of the wretch]

-Have you considered/do you miss spell snare?


I actually haven't considert it. In my opinion an optimized CB curve is the decks strongest weapon and therefore I'm only looking in the CC2 slot at the moment.



-When you say the SB makes up for the lack of hard removal, how do you mean? All I see is blasts and pyroclasm, which are all limited in their own way.


It's mostly the mass aggro MUs, that Thresh usually struggles with (Goblins, Elfes, Affinity,...) and Pyroclasm is just a monster there. That's what I meant when I said the SB is making up for the inferior maindeck (compared to Thresh/w).



-Price of progress? Interesting, but can you please motivate?


Due to the lack of Swords I had a hard time to deal tha last points of damage to Aggro Loam (once one of their heavy critters hit the table, you're in trouble) and PoP serves this purpose just perfectly. It's also nuts against 43 Land.dec (a bad MU) and various Tendrils builds (especially if they rely on Ad Nauseam).



-Only one krosan grip?


Yeah, once I moved the Predators to the maindeck I constantly reduced the number of Grips in the board. That one is a little random, I just don't have an idea of which card I'd rather have in that slot.



Or perhaps counterspell?


This is an interessting thought. It is a good lategame spell (which Thresh is lacking). In the early game on the other hand, you don't have the mana most of the time.

[Henrik]

This is an interessting thought. It is a good lategame spell (which Thresh is lacking). In the early game on the other hand, you don't have the mana most of the time.

Yes, it really is. My most freqently played deck right now is the typical tempo thresh deck, with two counterspells instead of bounce. I made that change because I found it really valueable to be able to counter anything that would stop my clock (target my goyf), and not only bounce blockers. Since your deck is less tempo oriented I suppose you might find you don't have the same need of it, since you probably have a CB active at that point. Still though...

The price of progress is really neat, I might consider that in my SB as well.

[kiwi]

Has any one tested with UGR threshold tempo againts Team America and Dreadstill ? thoughts ?

[Irish_Mafia]

Has any one tested with UGR threshold tempo againts Team America and Dreadstill ? thoughts ?

I lost to UGR thresh playing Dreadstill 0-2, But considering UGR thresh took the top 2 spots at winter wonderland I think it should be a decent match up.

[Whit3 Ghost]

I play the ponder, unless I'm assuming my opponent is very inexperienced. He will never use his first turn fetch while you have an untapped island anyways, and then you just skipped a turn for noting. The ponder will provide your second land drop (possibly a wasteland for his first land), free counters, or a mongoose to play turn 2, then still with a mana open.
Right, but now that you've tapped out, they will absolutely burn any fetches they have as soon as they can. Those fetches will also go for basics, which is doubly annoying.

[Waikiki]

I'd always stick with stifle mana open. If they crack it. I can have a smile on my face. If they don't, means I can get another turn without them doing anything.

[Serbitar]

Why do people play ye olde Blasts over Pyroblast and Hydroblast? The fact that Pyroblast and Hydroblast can target permanents that aren't a specific color should make them strictly better since you can get an advantage when facing random decks with cards that dies when they get targeted. What is the advantage of running the old blasts? I just don't get it.

The old blasts can't be misdirected (the blue ones against the blue target changers, the red ones against the red targed changers) against random decks. Both scenarios never happen though - and I see the misdirection scenario as more likely than the Makeshift Mannequin one.

[Henrik]

Two players shared the top 2 in this tournament
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=306585&postcount=117
...both playing UGr tempo thresh. YAY =)

Their sideboards are however rather different from mine, playing 4 submerge. That it is useful against for example team america is not that hard to figure out, but in what other matchups is it useful? There must be good reasons to develop such a SB, and by doing so, in my opinion neglecting other important matchups.

I would love to hear the opinions from the players that was in the top 2, if they are present here in this thread.

[Adan]

Their sideboards are however rather different from mine, playing 4 submerge. That it is useful against for example team america is not that hard to figure out, but in what other matchups is it useful?

AggroLoamAggroLoamAggroLoamAggroLoamAggroLoamAggroLoamAggroLoam.

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO BROKEN.

And the Mirrormatch.


There must be good reasons to develop such a SB, and by doing so, in my opinion neglecting other important matchups.

Maybe they included 4 Submerge because it's good against AggroLoam, Team America and the Mirrormatch. I was complaining at goobafish several times about how pissed I am for everyone playing Aggroloam here at out monthly Hassloch tournaments (and even brain-amputated people stealing Top2s with it). And well, this is now my motivation to give that deck another try after having failed with it hard.

[Henrik]

DAH!
Obviously =)
Thanks for the heads up. It's a neat trick.

[spirit of the wretch]

how pissed I am for everyone playing Aggroloam here at out monthly Hassloch tournaments (and even brain-amputated people stealing Top2s with it)

A little off topic but from the bottom of my heart: QFMFT!

A little more on topic: PoP should also be good, but Submerge is way more flexible.

[Shugyosha]

but in what other matchups is it useful?

Every deck that plays green and creatures basically, duh. Except maybe Goblins with G splash. As you will notice most good decks with creatures (that are not lands) in it play green for Tarmogoyf.
We are playing Submerge since mid-december in the board and it is really amazing. Although the fetch trick won't happen too often the tempo advantage is often sufficient.

Seeing today that Phan and Caplan also play it was really cool. But Disrupt is a strange choice I think. With Creaturebounce and only one Krosan Grip I would rather play Counterspell than Disrupt, especially as the removal in Legacy is too cheap to get countered by Disrupt that often. Ok Stifle/Waste helps but I doubt that Disrupt is a better SB card that Hydroblasts or more Grips/Grudge.

[aTn]

With Creaturebounce and only one Krosan Grip I would rather play Counterspell than Disrupt, especially as the removal in Legacy is too cheap to get countered by Disrupt that often. Ok Stifle/Waste helps but I doubt that Disrupt is a better SB card that Hydroblasts or more Grips/Grudge.

I think Disrupt was there to win counterwars (vs control in particular) and mostly to help against combo. Then again, I might be dead wrong.... Anyhow, it generates CA when successfull and is nice with Daze... it actually looks good against TA. I'm not saying the card is a bomb, but it's not that bad.

[Enigma]

In a metagame with a lot of Sinkholes, Swords, Duress, Thoughtseizes, Orim's chant... I would prefer Divert (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=divert) as a side option.

[aTn]

In a metagame with a lot of Sinkholes, Swords, Duress, Thoughtseizes, Orim's chant... I would prefer Divert (http://www.magiccards.info/query.php?cardname=divert) as a side option.

Totally. Divert was frequently played in Threshold sideboards when Deadguy ale was the brand new thing. My personal favorite was Diverting Hymn to Tourach. Anyhow, Divert is actually better in counterwars - making FoW, CSpell, etc. target Divert instead of a key spell you're trying to push through. I guess it might be time to give it a try again. It's also harder to play around for you opponent than Daze or Disrupt.

[Adan]

The key thing is that Disrupt cantrips, Divert doesn't.

Disrupt is such a house against Team America as it actually slows your opponent's disruption down, making it possible to you to disrupt him back with Wasteland-Stifle, maintaining the "brokeness" of Disrupt and Daze as he will then have problems with his manaresources as well.

Another point about Disrupt is the Ichorid matchup. It's the same like REB, I is not obvious first, but the thing is that you must be able to counter every 1st Turn discard outlet they play in order to win that.
Disrupt now takes care of Breakthrough and Careful Study, others like Putrid Imp and LED have to be FoW'ed or Daze'd.
Again, the difference between Disrupt and REB here is : Disrupt draws a card.

But against TA, I also think Divert is cool, but the only spells you can divert are Thoughtseize and Sinkhole.

Swords to Plowshares are a reason, yes. Duress? Not! Orim's Chant? Absolutely, but this card will most likely see play in combodecks which you will rape anyway as you are most likely hacking on their resources anyway, making Disrupt strong again.
A lot of opponents also miscalculate a lot when they suddenly see multiple Daze-effects (Disrupt & Daze).

[smoky squirrel]

Divert does not do anything against Duress, since that says 'Target opponent'. In a tempo/mana denial deck like Canadian Thrash I think Disrupt works better. During a counterwar or against an all-in combo deck, it is an anoying trump. Besides, it always draws a card, so you can target your own spell and use it as a cantrip.

EDIT: Adan says the same, but better

[Xeen]

Ok, i´m going to attend a ~100 competitor strong event this weekend.
In an unknown meta, but expecting lots of TA, Aggro Loam, and Aggro decks in general to what version of UGr Thresh (Canadian, Balanced) would you stick?

Or would you, this meta given, prefer to play UGw or something totally different?


Xeen

[Citrus-God]

Ok, i´m going to attend a ~100 competitor strong event this weekend.
In an unknown meta, but expecting lots of TA, Aggro Loam, and Aggro decks in general to what version of UGr Thresh (Canadian, Balanced) would you stick?

Or would you, this meta given, prefer to play UGw or something totally different?


Xeen

UGw works. UGr sucks in the mirror because of Lightning Bolts and such. Post-board your game probably looks better; REBs are amazing. Personally I'd say play DIF's list or 5c Threshold.

[Adan]

5c Threshold.

->


In an unknown meta, but expecting lots of TA, Aggro Loam, and Aggro decks in general

NOT!

City = pain, Thoughtseize = more pain.

Manabase = the suck against TA and AggroLoam.

[Citrus-God]

->



NOT!

City = pain, Thoughtseize = more pain.

Manabase = the suck against TA and AggroLoam.


How does the mana base suck against TA now? Oh yeah, it runs City of Brass, how could I forget? It's not like having 14 ways to access Green, 14 ways to access White, 18 ways to access Blue, 13 ways to access Black and 13 ways to access Red is going to screw you over against TA! Especially with 8 cantrips!

Pain isn't a concern if you spent time practicing 5c Thresh. Thoughtseize should delay most threats anyway. The reason for running 5c Thresh isn't because of the Sideboard, sadly, it's because of maindeck Thoughtseize in combination with Swords to Plowshares and Mystic Enforcers.

[spirit of the wretch]

Ok, i´m going to attend a ~100 competitor strong event this weekend.
In an unknown meta, but expecting lots of TA, Aggro Loam, and Aggro decks in general to what version of UGr Thresh (Canadian, Balanced) would you stick?

Or would you, this meta given, prefer to play UGw or something totally different?


Xeen

Against TA and Aggro Loam Thresh/w is way better than Thresh/r simply because of the Swords. Against Aggro the red variant is better because of the SB Pyroclasms.
Didn't help all that much, did it =)
I would never play the 5C list, if you expect a lot of TA and Aggro Loam, they'll just stomp your manabase (Wasteland recursion, Stifle, Sinkhole...) the hard way!
In an unknown metagame the SPOD list of Thresh/w (the one Adan and Der imaginäre Freund are playing) is probably the best.

[Citrus-God]

I would never play the 5C list, if you expect a lot of TA and Aggro Loam, they'll just stomp your manabase (Wasteland recursion, Stifle, Sinkhole...) the hard way!

Those decks stomp your face in anyway. The fact that those are bad match ups makes the claim that 5c Thresh sucks is none unique; it applies to UGw as well.

[Enigma]

Those decks stomp your face in anyway. The fact that those are bad match ups makes the claim that 5c Thresh sucks is none unique; it applies to UGw as well.

Recent UGw builds are running 4 basics lands because of B2B, so I doubt 5c and UGw have the same MU against those decks.

PM

[Adan]

Those decks stomp your face in anyway. The fact that those are bad match ups makes the claim that 5c Thresh sucks is none unique; it applies to UGw as well.

No it doesn't, the current UGw build Clemens and I are playing is designed to beat Aggroloam. In the tournament where Clemens went 6-0 with UGw, he beat 4 AggroLoams 2-0, so 8-0 in games.

I lost 2-1 against 2 AggroLoams due to the lack of Jotun Grunt in the SB, they would have won if they were not Tormod's Crypts.

But Jotun Grunt is currently the auto-include in UGw's sideboard as he recycles basiclands which might get destroyed by Sinkholes, making it able to you to simply fetch them again, he keeps Goys and Terravores small, he prevents the TA-player from dropping Tombstalkers and so on.

Of course you can include him into 5color Threshold, but due to the lack of Basiclands, you will most likely still lose to random B2Bs and Moons (in my match against Imperial Painter, I won against triple-Moons because of Island and Plains. And cantrips into Forest).

[JMG021283]

Last time I check'd this is UGr threshold:) not UGw:) Lets keep on track:P

Too be honest I've been fairly happy with UGr threshold in most the places I play. I rarely have many problems with it in general meta's. Def. think submerge deserves at least 3-4 slots in board. I've been happy with disrupt. I got the chance to test it Wensday turned out well. I sided it in a little more then I probably should of, but turned out well in most match and as well in the mirror's. I personally went down to one grip and kept two predator's. My choice on them is then general stax decks that pop up in the shop. Just some random thoughts. Also I play two basics been really happy with the choice of that as well.

[Mister Agent]

I think 5c threshold has a optimal game against TA. Running more fetchlands then TA has stifles is a way to stabalize a solid manabase. Not to mention Thoughtseize, Swords to plowshares, and counterbalance is enough to stop Team america on a consistent basis. Oh yeah and never leave home without your red blasts either.

[Jaiminho]

I think 5c threshold has a optimal game against TA. Running more fetchlands then TA has stifles is a way to stabalize a solid manabase. Not to mention Thoughtseize, Swords to plowshares, and counterbalance is enough to stop Team america on a consistent basis. Oh yeah and never leave home without your red blasts either.

I don't think I've ever seen a deck that runs fetchland and runs less than 4. Also, trading a Stifle for a fetchland is a hell of a tempo gain, so it's not like it's a solid plan to stabilize your mana base. The rest is what beats TA, though. Counterbalance + Swords to Plowshares is what makes Thresh win that match.

[Mister Agent]

I don't think I've ever seen a deck that runs fetchland and runs less than 4. Also, trading a Stifle for a fetchland is a hell of a tempo gain, so it's not like it's a solid plan to stabilize your mana base. The rest is what beats TA, though. Counterbalance + Swords to Plowshares is what makes Thresh win that match.


I doubt it's that BAD of a tempo loss for you if the TA player stifles your activated fetch. Especially since Threshold functions just fine on one or two mana for starters. You also run cantrips and city of brass to subside the general "tempo loss" from Team America.

[sauce]

What are people's opinions in regards to running Rushing river vs Wipe away.
I currently run Rushing river because it can bounce 2 things, and only requires 1 blue, so if I drop a Blood moon, its easier to RR than WA.
Obv, I love split second, I am kinda torn.

Thoughts?

[Jaiminho]

I doubt it's that BAD of a tempo loss for you if the TA player stifles your activated fetch. Especially since Threshold functions just fine on one or two mana for starters. You also run cantrips and city of brass to subside the general "tempo loss" from Team America.

When you would be playing CB, Confidant or Goyf (talking about 5c, right?), you'll still have to keep cantripping. This is tempo loss. Also, you'll be more vulnerable to Daze. If you play around it, you are losing even more tempo.

[Muradin]

I am also pretty sure that running the 1/1 split in bounce can’t be the right decision. If you have a metagame where being able to bounce lands (Glacial Chasm would be an example) and having split second (for example when you are playing against dreadstill and trying to bounce a nought through a counterwall) important, then run Wipe Away. If you don't need split second that often and you have no decks in your metagame where you would like to bounce lands, then wipe away is strictly superior because it gives you the option of bouncing two cards at once.

Concerning Disrupt I really have mixed feelings towards this card. Sometimes they are absolutely amazing, but sometimes they are just useless as hell. I am actually not so happy with this card because it doesn't have such a big impact on the game. I mean, Pyroclasm wins against goblins really often; Submerge gives big tempo swings and makes me feel much more comfortable about hard matchups like Aggro Loam and Team America. Disrupt simply is a situational Force Spike that cantrips. It can win games for sure and might even be useful quite often, but when my opponents have game breaking cards, such as Relic of Progenitus.
Magic is a game of luck and skill and you simply still can very easily lose after having disrupted a sinkhole in the best case. But you won’t lose very often after having pyroclasmed a bunch of goblins away. So I think your sideboard should contain a great number of game wining cards that help you to win bad or balanced matchups and not so many neat tricks. (Disrupt)
However I would really be pleased if you could convince me that Disrupt is good. (as it’s a cool card)
This is my board at the moment:

4 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle (I really think those are worth their spots)
2 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Trygon Predator (am not sure whether I need those as there is quite some Dreadstill but no Staxx or Affinity in my meta)

[Shriekmaw]

4 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle (I really think those are worth their spots)
2 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Trygon Predator (am not sure whether I need those as there is quite some Dreadstill but no Staxx or Affinity in my meta)


I would drop the needles and predators, they simply are not needed. If you are really worried about dreadstill, you can add 2 ancient grudge into the board, they are pretty good against them. I found the red blasts to be enough most of the time against dreadstill.

I went down to 3 submerges in my board to find the room to add in 3 disrupts. I've been pretty happy with it so far.

[JMG021283]

Gotta agree with not needing needles, Pred's on otherhand I've found useful at times. My meta see's stax quite often. Disrupt I will say I've been happy with. More then happy actually.

[Muradin]

But what is actually the purpose of Disrupt? I see that it helps against combo and Team America, and perhaps the mirror. But would you also board it in, let's say against Landstill to counter some Brainstorms and to supplement Daze?
Or is it just some Tech to come out with an advantage in aggro control mirrors?
How would you guys board with a board containing 4 REB, 4 Disrupt and 4 Submerge (Goobafish's one) in the Team America matchup?

[Mister Agent]

When you would be playing CB, Confidant or Goyf (talking about 5c, right?), you'll still have to keep cantripping. This is tempo loss. Also, you'll be more vulnerable to Daze. If you play around it, you are losing even more tempo.

It depends really, regardless threshold can play around anything that Team america plays as well. Threshold is one of the top dogs for a reason. You don't necassarily need to keep on cantripping when you have the ability to cast a threat and keep it on the field while disrupting whatever your opponent plays. Threshold is the best deck in the format at sustaining this. Also cantripping is utilized as a strength not a weakness.

[Citrus-God]

@Adan: Seriously, Jotun Grunt isn't a reason to play UGw exclusively; he can be played in 5c as well. Some lists of Aggro Loam runs a playset of Engineered Explosives. They'll just cast it and just wipe your board clean of 2c creatures and/or Counterbalance. Against TA, Jotun Grunt is nothing more than a clock that forces them to answer it or else their clocks fail to have any validity and board dominance as Jotun Grunt sticks around on the board. It may recycle basics, but that only helps you against 4 cards in their deck; Wastelands. You still have to deal with 4 Stifles, 4 Sinkholes and 4 Dazes. Doesn't help you still have to play around those cards as well. Personally the best approach is to find a way to keep more opening hands and land a Counterbalance Turn 2. 5c Thresh is good at this. Resolve Counterbalance and they have to bait in order to cast disruption against you.Thoughtseize also helps delay disruption or take out threats. Maybe it can even help you resolve a Counterbalance Turn 2 by taking out a FoW/Daze with your own Counters backed up as well.

Also, Back to Basics may be a good card, but it's only good against certain match ups. Thoughtseize helps against every match-up; including Goyf Sligh. Gets rid of that Price of Progress! Bet Back to Basics can't do that against Goyf Sligh.

@Jaiminho: You've just made my case that Threshold's match up against Aggro Loam is none unique; you're the underdog in that match both post board and pre board. Also, with the rise of Ad Nauseam, Aggro Loam's presence will slowly diminish, especially with LED in the format along with a pseudo Yawgmoth's Bargain present. With combo as a big part of the picture, it will be Thresh, Dreadstill and TA's golden moment in the metagame.

[Enigma]

I'm running the classic Canadian trash list but changed 4 Disrupts for 3x Tormod's and 1x Grip and 1x Pyroclasm for 1x EE. I would like to know what you guys do against Ichorid without Tormod's.


How would you guys board with a board containing 4 REB, 4 Disrupt and 4 Submerge (Goobafish's one) in the Team America matchup?

I'm also questionning myself about this. I won 2-0 yesterday against Team Europe (no sinkholes but EE + Spell snares), I had the chance to mana denial him more than he did + stifle EE to keep mongoose hiting. My sideboard plan was this: 4x Submerge, 4x REB's for -4x Daze, -4 Bolt. I really didn't want to cut Dazes but I found the Fire/ice useful in mana denial plan (tapping at upkeep + draw) + in goyfs war. The Spell snare are good to prevents goyfs.

[Waikiki]

I'd actually wouldn't side out burn since Team america hurts itself alot through snuff out and seizes. I've burned them out alot of times. I considder spell snare to be the weaker slot. It only stops goyf and thats smt where you allready board submerges for. I'd also board in disrupt aswell instead of the RED/Pyro since disrupt hits more then just the cantrips. and it cantrips itself. I love it vs TA.

[spirit of the wretch]

So, I'd like to share my latest developments on balanced Grow/r with you guys. I got second at the local Hassloch tourney (46 players). After starting 5/0/0 I lost the last round due to mulligan to 4 into another no-lander... bad beats!
Anyway, lately I haven't been impressed with the 'Geese in my list. They simply are too small to make an impact and as our meta completly lacks TA and Landstill, I decided to cut them and go oldscool. So without further ado I present you:

[SPOD] Next Level Grow

3 Polluted Delta
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest

4 Tarmogoxf
4 Quirion Dryade
3 Trygon Predator

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei'S Devine Top
4 Lightning Bolt

This is the core of the deck. The additional 5 slots are meta dependent and I'm currently testing:
Rushing River
Snake Form
Blood Moon
Vendilion Clique
Counterspell
Fire/Ice
Magma Jet
Engineered Explosives
Pithing Needle
Relic of Progenitus
Spitebellows

Some remarks:
This obviously is a metagame deck. Our meta has a fair share of Tribal.decs and Thresh, which is why I prefer to play red (Pyroclasms and REBs are simply that good). Also Dreadstill isn't present.
The Quirion Dryads were awesome for me all day! Due to the high permanent count of my list, reaching Threshold early basically is impossible. In the midgame they outgrow Goyfs and give me the possibility to race Tombstalker (both creatures give you a hard time) and they grant you the possibility of maindeck Relics.
Trygon Predator advanced to a must play in my eyes. They do so much for the deck, it's not even funny! I could throw in a list of artifact and enchantments that really cripple your gameplan, but I'm fairly sure you can all think of them yourselves.

[MSC]

Yeah, it's definitly a great Deck!

Even thought about Izzet Guildmage as a 2-Of? It makes you able to kill Goyfs / Stalker with Burn or generate Card-Advantage with Ponder.
(Nebenbei kann man damit auch feindliche CB umgehen, falls der Gegner es nicht freiwillig verzockt. :wink:)

[Henrik]

Regarding Next Level Grow:

I like the list, but I am having a hard time seeing why you chose to keep this list red. In maindeck the bolts are all that is red, and in a counterbalance build without wasteland and stifle, I can not see why swords to plowshares isn't used instead. Perhaps if you used some of the suggested cards for the 5 open slots that needed red, but in this case, you didn't (predict and progenitus if I quote deckcheck correctly?)

Can you comment on this?

[Glorfindel]

Red provides nice sideboard options in the form of Pyroclasm and Pyroblast.

[Henrik]

Hmm, yeah I know that's what people like to say...

Hey, don't get me wrong, I am absolutely pro red thresh (I play tempo myself, but still) and I also use pyroclasm and REBs in my board. It's just that I never board them in! Goblins and wheenies just aren't that hot, and against blueish decks I can't think of one where I need the REB. Other thresh and TA builds eat more dirt out of submerge and disrupt, and my absolutely most frequent boarding strategy is -4 daze, +1 counterspell, +3 krosan grip for game 2, provided I am on the draw.

I would also like to hear spirit of the wretch's thoughts about it.

[Glorfindel]

Even thought about Izzet Guildmage as a 2-Of? It makes you able to kill Goyfs / Stalker with Burn or generate Card-Advantage with Ponder.You'd need to have a lot (too much) land in play in order to do this.

[Shugyosha]

Against other blue based decks you absolutely want to win the counter war every time and you also never want to see a Balance in play, which is more difficult to achieve without Spell Snares.
If your Balance is working its still difficult to counter your opponents FOWs with Balance. Trading a Blast with a pitched FOW is quite strong here.
MUC is another matchup where your Blasts really make the difference between protecting your beatstick/loosing it or stop his wincon/let it resolve and die.

Pyroclasm is a meta call. His meta features alot of tribal decks I heard.

@Spirit: What I'm really interested in is the Dryad thing. I know that they can get quite strong but they seem very slow and fragile. Does the list play more controllish with them or do they actually support a more aggressive approach?
I can imagine that they are a good removal magnet and then Goyf hits and does his dirty work, does it play out that way?

[spirit of the wretch]

Why play red over white:
It's because of the sideboard (surprise, surprise^^). I've played 6 tourneys with balanced Grow/r (27-4-0 in matches) and never lost a match due to the lack of swords. There are several reasons why I think the red sideboards outweighs the lack of Swords.

1.) The Aggro Control mirror (Fish, Thresh,...). In my experience this simply boils down to a Counterbalance war. Whoever gets his one online first wins the game. It really is as simple as that. (This is one of the reasons why I like the maindeck Predators) Therefore your main aim in that MU has to be to prevent your opponents CB and resolve your own. Grow/w has nothing to support this plan in the sideboard while Grow/r has the Blasts. This is a hugh advantage! They also come in handy against Faeries, Merfolk, MUC, Landstill...
2.) The Swarm Aggro MU (Affinity, Elves, Merfolk,...). These are traditionally weak MU for Grow/w, but I really like my chances with 4 Pyroclasms in the side. Grow/w hasn't anything to improve the MU post board.
3.) Burn. Against decks like Landstill, 43 Land.dec,... it helps you out a lot, if you don't have to deal 20 damage with your creatures! Especially the PoP post board can turn lost games into wins. The reach that burn spells provide is a real plus in those MUs.

So all in all I think in a metagame consisting of those decks Grow/r has fewer bad MUs than Grow/w and is therefore the better deck.

For reference, here's my SB:

4 Hydroblast
4 Pyroblast
4 Pyroclasm
3 Price of Progress

About Dryads:
They sure are pretty fragile at the beginning. But I think their midgame strength outweighs that disadvantage (and some people still underestimate them and don't kill them early enough). As you mentioned they deflect removal from your Goyfs (and most decks in my current meta play 4 maindeck spotremoval at most). You have to compare the Dryads to the Geese and with that permanent heavy list it's actually much easier to play aggressiv with the Dryads than with the Geese, as they Grow much faster. From this point of view they aren't slow, as the Geese would've been way slower. Whether you play aggressive or controllish heavily depends on whether you have an active CB or not. Both approaches are possible.

[Waikiki]

What matchup do you need the hydroblast for? I've been wanting to try out your list. I love red threshold and this seems like an cool variant. The extra burn in the sb makes it really fun.

<edit> After some mws play with this deck I notice it really plays a little different then normal thresh and alot different then the deck I play (tempo thresh) altho very fun to play. It's better to keep your cantrips in hand till you actually really need to find something for the particular gamestate/matchup. This will give u some steroids for the dryad to feed on. So it won't be such a shitty topdeck. A very nice and yet viable option. I really like the creation.

What are your testing thoughts upon magus of the moon or even blood moon?

[Aj-capra]

This is the list of next level grow I'm testing:

// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [P2] Island (3)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [ALA] Forest (2)
3 [B] Tropical Island
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 [DIS] Trygon Predator
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [10E] Quirion Dryad

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
4 [NE] Daze
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
2 [EVE] Snakeform (or 2 predict, but snake its good versus phyrexian dread,tarmo and versus tombst. for obv reasons)

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [PT] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge (in my metagame there are a lot of staxx and its good versus phyrexian and mishra also)
SB: 3 [MOR] Spitebellows (or pop, but I noticed who its very good versus tomb and gofy)

A lot of times I prefer to play dryad in my second turn than goyf, obv if I've a lot of istant/sorcery in my hand!!

[Waikiki]

I'd always play dryad before goyf in the early game. Great for distracting removal! I think i'd just dont use relics md in my meta. F/I works better with the upcoming of elf decks and random weenie.

[Aj-capra]

I'd always play dryad before goyf in the early game. Great for distracting removal! I think i'd just dont use relics md in my meta. F/I works better with the upcoming of elf decks and random weenie.

Yeah, if in your metagame there're a lot of aggro decks fire/ice is better than relic, but you must cut your sideboard and this is very hard for me. Every slots is bare minimum.
I play relic main because my metagame require it!!! :(:(

@ If I don't play relic main, I prefer play spell snare then fire/ice

[spirit of the wretch]

What matchup do you need the hydroblast for?


Well, decks with a lot of red [/Captain Obvious]
Goblins, Imperial Painter, Aggro Loam, Burn, Goyf Sligh, Zoo,...
These are some of the decks I face with quite some regularity



<edit> After some mws play with this deck I notice it really plays a little different then normal thresh and alot different then the deck I play (tempo thresh) altho very fun to play. It's better to keep your cantrips in hand till you actually really need to find something for the particular gamestate/matchup. This will give u some steroids for the dryad to feed on. So it won't be such a shitty topdeck.


Yeah, this list obviously plays a lot more controllish than Tempo Thresh for example.



A very nice and yet viable option. I really like the creation.


Thanks a lot =)



What are your testing thoughts upon magus of the moon or even blood moon?

Your manabase can support them but it's a metagame call if you really want to run them. I don't like them in my meta, but as I said, there's almost no Landstill/43 land/5C Thresh... present, so they aren't worth the slot. They also weaken the PoP in the board a little, as your opponent is more likely to fetch basics after he got screwed by Blood Moon the first game.

This saturday I will try 2 Snakeform (they should really be good in this deck) and 3 Magma Jet (just to see how they work out) for the open slots.

[Waikiki]

Have you tried submerge? I rather use this agains the decks you mentionned since they also play green. And it's also great putting tombstalkers away. Maybe im just hyped about the card but it has been really good to me. It seems to me the goblin matchup is allready favorable.

I'll sleeve your list up next tournament I play in. Trying to get some variation instead of always playing thrash.

Perhaps not run the mage main but sb. This way pop wont use it weakness. Then again we wont have 20 sb slots.

[Aj-capra]

I prefer to play relic main then magma jet, because for me it isnt so good.
Okay it kills differents goblin, some merfolks and some slivers.
I think like waikiki who the very problemes are : tombst., ichorid,aggro loam and lftl control. For this reason relic >>> magma jet.

[Aj-capra]

Today I tested this deck versus:

- aggro loam (2-0 won thanks to relic main)
- team america (2-1 won thanks to relic main)
- ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh urg (2-0 won thanks to relic main)
- Ub control (2-1 won thanks to relic main and pyrcolasm sd)

Relic main is very very strongh.
I must think if submerge is better than spitebellows.

Spittebellows kills, but its cc is 1RR : tarmo, tomst, mysic enforcer
Submermerge bouncer, I can play it gratis : phyrexian dread. and all creatures (akroma too).

Which decks (tier 1 - 1.5) play green:

ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (ugw,ugr,ugb) <-- submerge >>> spittebellows
Team America <-- submerge >>> spittebellows
Dreadstill (ugr and ugw) <-- submerge >>> spittebellow

@edit : versus goyf I gain a turn, but I can draw a counter for it and play it in my opponent next turn :P
@edit2 : In my testing today I never draw snake, but I think who its very good!!

[Enigma]

hi guys,

I really like the deck. I'm testing it with snakeforms and they are pretty good. + it makes 6 3cc for CB which is a pretty good thing.

One thing I am afraid of would be Humility. How you deal with that? What would you cut in the SB to put place for 1-2 Grips?

Current SB:

4x Beb
3x Reb
1x Relic
3x Pop
4x Pyroclasm

I'm aware of the TA Mu so I would like to keep the 3x Pop in. Maybe 1 clasm, 1 Relic? Or even better 2 Bebs? The Beb's comes in the MU's where I feel pretty confidant about: Burn (due to CB), Gobs (due to Bolt and clasm), aggro loam (due to Relic's, Pop and Trygon)

PM

[sauce]

hi guys,

I really like the deck. I'm testing it with snakeforms and they are pretty good. + it makes 6 3cc for CB which is a pretty good thing.

One thing I am afraid of would be Humility. How you deal with that? What would you cut in the SB to put place for 1-2 Grips?

Current SB:

4x Beb
3x Reb
1x Relic
3x Pop
4x Pyroclasm

I'm aware of the TA Mu so I would like to keep the 3x Pop in. Maybe 1 clasm, 1 Relic? Or even better 2 Bebs? The Beb's comes in the MU's where I feel pretty confidant about: Burn (due to CB), Gobs (due to Bolt and clasm), aggro loam (due to Relic's, Pop and Trygon)

PM

you should not play 4 pyroclasm, 2 is plenty since you got beb/reb for goblins/merfolk. no need for price of progress either.
i think ichorid would be a bad matchup to worry bout in the sb, -3 pop -2 pyroclasm +1 tormod's crypt +1 relic +3 krosan grip

[aTn]

At first glance, I'm far from sold on this build.

1. 3 Relics maindeck, really ? I know the card is good, but unless you know your meta is infested with Loam/TA/Threshold, I wouldn't play it MD. Why ? Because you have almost no removal/bounce MD (4 Bolts is far from enough).

Snakeform is cute but seems way too slow. The match-ups you mention the card being useful are where you'll have to play around a combination of Stifle/Wasteland/Daze... which would tend, in my view, to make it slowwww.

2. A deck with such a high permanent count and so few low costed instants (cantrips in particular) doesn't seem like an optimal place for Quirion Dryad.

3. Your build looks slowwwwww...

*: These remarks are based on past experience with UGr-Threshold (with CB and with or without Dryad), but not on playtesting your actual list... so I may be wrong... but I'd be really really surprised.

[spirit of the wretch]

Or even better 2 Bebs?


Cutting 2 BEB doesn't make all to much sense in my opinon. If you don't think you need them I would cut them all! Playing Grip in that slot in a Landstil/Rifter/Quinn heavy metagame seems reasonable.

[Shugyosha]

One thing I am afraid of would be Humility. How you deal with that? What would you cut in the SB to put place for 1-2 Grips?

Quirion Dryad keeps its counters already acquired before Humility enters play which should be quite annoying for LS. But I would play 2 Grips in the SB too.

[Henrik]

@Spirit of the wretch

Ok, after some early testing of "Next level grow", I like it a lot, and I would like to take back some of my earlier criticism. I am now considering changing my pet deck Canadian thresh for this one for the next event, but I would like some advise on how to use the sideboard. What goes in for each given matchup is pretty clear, what goes out is always harder. A quick rundown of the tier 1-2 decks in some sort of -/+ list would be highly appreciated.

Also, is price of progress one of the most valuable players in the aggro-loam and zoo matchups, or are the blue blasts enough? I am considering changing the PoP's for blood moons to improve the landstill and land.dec matchup.

Cheers!

[thefreakaccident]

I haven't seen any discussion about SwanThresh lately... has the deck fallen out of favor?

I remember the deck used to kick ass... I mean what happened?

Is it the skill requirement that has deterred too many?

Or does it just not make the cut anymore?


Anyways... here was my old list:

lands//18
1 forest
2 island
3 tropical island
4 volcanic island
3 wooded foothills
3 polluted delta
2 flooded strand

creatures//11
4 tarmogoyf
4 nimble mongoose
3 swans

spells//31
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 sensei's divining top

1 lightning storm
4 lightning bolt
3 chain of plasma

4 force of will
3 counterbalance
2 spell snare
3 daze


sideboard//
3 pyroclasm
3 red elemental blast
3 magus of the moon
3 krosan grip
3 tormod's crypt


The list was simple, but powerful... I remember it giving me quite a few firsts at my old local tournament.

I think I got the MD list from Nihil.

[Shugyosha]

UGw Balanced and UGr Tempo Threshold are just better than Swanthresh at the moment and the increase in LD Strategies (TA, Dreastill, Aggro Loam) hinders the decks gameplan too much. Its usually better to play with something that is actually castable then. The large quantity of burnspells is still good, especially as the de facto Incinerates deal 3 instead of Fire/Ice's 2. It mattered a lot, especially when beating lower tier decks where Swan Thresh is extremely strong due to the possibility of a late game combo.

[spirit of the wretch]

@Spirit of the wretch

Ok, after some early testing of "Next level grow", I like it a lot, and I would like to take back some of my earlier criticism. I am now considering changing my pet deck Canadian thresh for this one for the next event, but I would like some advise on how to use the sideboard. What goes in for each given matchup is pretty clear, what goes out is always harder. A quick rundown of the tier 1-2 decks in some sort of -/+ list would be highly appreciated.

Also, is price of progress one of the most valuable players in the aggro-loam and zoo matchups, or are the blue blasts enough? I am considering changing the PoP's for blood moons to improve the landstill and land.dec matchup.

Cheers!

First of all, you can obviously board out the cards in the Meta Slots, if they aren't good enough in the MU. So my following boarding plans only consider the core of the deck. On the Draw I ofter board out the Dazes, especially against very aggrssive decks.

Grow(ish):
+4 Pyroblast
-4 Daze
Hardcounter for CB > Softcounter.

Aggro Loam:
+4 Hydroblasts
+3 PoP
-4 Lightning Bolt
-3 Meta Slot

Lightning Bolts are close to dead in that MU, as they won't act as removal here (unless your opponent is a complete retard =) and PoP is simply the superior burn.

Control:
+4 Pyroblasts
+3 PoP
-7 Trygon Predator/Lightning Bolt/Meta Slot depending how devastating their artifacts and enchantments are.

Goblins:
-4 CB
-4 Daze
+4 Hydroblast
+4 Pyroclasm

With Vial/Lackey Daze loses a lot of its Power. CB is close to useless in that MU.

Aggro:
(+4 Hydroblast)
+4 Pyroclasm
-3 Predator
(-4 Daze)
-1 Random

Most of the time Predator is to clucky for that MU and there aren't any worthy targets anyway.

Tendrils Combo:
-5 Meta Slot (unless your Meta Slots are really weird)
-2 Trygon Predator
+3 PoP
+4 Hydroblast/Pyroblast (depending on the deck)

PoP is a much faster clock than the Predator. Also it catches most combo player completly off guard.

[sauce]

question regarding sb choices for Lam Phan's deck from Winter Wonderland:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22561

Sideboard:
4 Disrupt (control wars/ANT/random.dec?)
1 Krosan Grip (why only 1?)
2 Pyroblast (no explanation needed)
2 Red Elemental Blast (no explanation needed)
4 Submerge (is this for the mirror/Team America/loam?)
1 Pyroclasm (why only 1? not expecting much tribal?)
1 Engineered Explosives - what are the most relevant matchups to side this in against besides ETW tokens/Zoo/Stax

why no pithing needles? how does it fight against deed/landstill?

Can someone please elaborate on those cards and what you would side out for them in a given matchup?

Thanks.

[Serbitar]

I guess the reasoning was something like:

1) I want Disrupt (Thresh, Combo, EvaGreen...), Submerge (TA, Thresh, Surivival) and REB (Control, Thresh),
2) That leaves 3 Slots,
3) I want some mass removal and disenchant effect - so 1 Grip and 1 Clasm with EE acting as a 2nd mockup version of each one.

Against Deed the deck has colorscrew and stifle as weapons. And generally Deed won't trade for more than 1 for 1. Landstill is still kind of hard, at least versions with lots of land and basics.

I would also like how you side with this board against aggro-control decks, where the 12 cards (Submerge, Disrupt, REB) come in. Probably -4 Daze, -4 Bolt, -2 Bounce, -2X (Fire/Ice?)

[b4r0n]

question regarding sb choices for Lam Phan's deck from Winter Wonderland:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22561

Sideboard:
4 Disrupt (control wars/ANT/random.dec?)
1 Krosan Grip (why only 1?)
2 Pyroblast (no explanation needed)
2 Red Elemental Blast (no explanation needed)
4 Submerge (is this for the mirror/Team America/loam?)
1 Pyroclasm (why only 1? not expecting much tribal?)
1 Engineered Explosives - what are the most relevant matchups to side this in against besides ETW tokens/Zoo/Stax

why no pithing needles? how does it fight against deed/landstill?

Can someone please elaborate on those cards and what you would side out for them in a given matchup?

Thanks.

Disrupt cantrips and makes your Dazes and land destruction more relevant. Since you don't have Counterbalance, I think this is basically your primary tool against combo and other blue decks. Krosan Grip and EE serve as additional answers to CB, supplementing the Wipe Away and Rushing River maindeck. Submerge is awesome against all other aggro control decks, since everything runs Goyf.

I'm also a little confused as to how he sided. It seems like there's a lot to bring in for each matchup. I would guess that Lightning Bolts come out against decks with Goyf for Submerges, some number of Ponders and Dazes might be replaced by Disrupts, and maybe some number of Dazes and Spells Snares could become REBs? Basically, I would never side out the creatures, the Forces, or the Stifles/Wastes, but just about everything else seems like fair game.

[Henrik]

I'm also a little confused as to how he sided. It seems like there's a lot to bring in for each matchup. I would guess that Lightning Bolts come out against decks with Goyf for Submerges, some number of Ponders and Dazes might be replaced by Disrupts, and maybe some number of Dazes and Spells Snares could become REBs? Basically, I would never side out the creatures, the Forces, or the Stifles/Wastes, but just about everything else seems like fair game.

First of all, sideboarding the ponders is probably the next to last thing i'd do, after brainstorm. It's the tick that makes the clock go 'round, or whichever metafor is most apropriate, and that is something that we all know very well...

However, the submerge/lightning bolt boarding strategy is something to discuss. When facing aggro-loam or zoo, i'd say hell yeah, but in the aggro-control mirror (be it balanced thresh, tempo thresh or TA) I'm not so sure. Isn't lightning bolt and fire//ice the cards that actually give us an edge in this matchup?

I'm not saying submerge isn't worth boarding, just that bolt is worth to keep. That's one of the way's tempo thresh profits from the early disruption and tempo-plan, to finish fast before other decks that are more suited for taking control of the midgame actually survives until it's able to do so.

Or how do you reason about the aggro-control MU, playing tempo-thresh?

[Adan]

First of all, sideboarding the ponders is probably the next to last thing i'd do, after brainstorm. It's the tick that makes the clock go 'round, or whichever metafor is most apropriate, and that is something that we all know very well...

It's still possible to board out a single Ponder together with some other random cards like 1 Daze, 1 Stifle etc. to make space for cards like REBs and so on.
You will have REBs and Disrupts against the mirrormatch to disrupt the opponent's cardquality-spells without a huge disadvantage. This fact compensates the cardquality you are neglecting by boarding out 1 Ponder.
I would not go under 3 Ponders, though.


However, the submerge/lightning bolt boarding strategy is something to discuss. When facing aggro-loam or zoo, i'd say hell yeah, but in the aggro-control mirror (be it balanced thresh, tempo thresh or TA) I'm not so sure. Isn't lightning bolt and fire//ice the cards that actually give us an edge in this matchup?

I'm not saying submerge isn't worth boarding, just that bolt is worth to keep. That's one of the way's tempo thresh profits from the early disruption and tempo-plan, to finish fast before other decks that are more suited for taking control of the midgame actually survives until it's able to do so.

Or how do you reason about the aggro-control MU, playing tempo-thresh?

Against Zoo, Lightning Bolts are NOT boarded out. I'd not do that under any circumstances.
But against all the other above mentioned decks I would indeed board out the Lightning Bolts as in those matchups you will most likely face those creatures:

Tarmogoyf, Terravore, Countryside Crusher, Tombstalker, Nimble Mongoose.

Q: What does Lighnting Bolt do against these? A: Nothing. Period.

But this is where Submerge shines. it also harmonized verys well with Fire//Ice and the 2 bouncespells as you will be able to generate a insane speedadvantage which makes the opponent's creatures irrelevant.

[Henrik]

Yeah, I agree with you on zoo, I don't know why I packed that deck together with aggro-loam.

But, in the other mentioned matchups, I still don't think it's so obvious to side out the bolts for submerge, just because it does nothing against their creatures. That's nothing new, bolt's haven't done much on creatures for years, but we play it anyways. It still does 3 damage to the player, which was my hole point in the last post. But yes, the submerge shines in the matchup as well, and they should be played.

[sauce]

if you're on the draw, i think you would put in 4 disrupts/submerges/red blasts (whichever fits better) instead of dazes as you cannot afford to daze and most likely wont be good anyway if your opponent is a turn ahead.

[Henrik]

I second to that.

[Arsenal]

OP needs a serious overhaul; outdated decklist, card choices, matchup analysis, etc.
______________________

I was particularly interested how this deck does against Dreadstill, particularly Ur Dreadstill.

[sauce]

so i played legacy tonight, round 1 stax, i had nutty hands and took it in 3.. he tried to resolve chalice for 1 every game, i lost when it resolved as he quickly played a trinisphere followed by a crucible/wasteland lock.

round 2, i played against affinity, lost in 3 after having the game won by going to time and he dropped the 2nd disciple and ravager after i drew 2 lands in a row and killed me for 10 dmg w/ ravager/disciple bs...

round 3 i played scrub.dec 2-1

round 4 another stax deck........ lose 2-0 he resolves the nuts every game.

i should have won affinity i made bad combat mistakes. stax is ridiculous if you cant counter 1st turn brokeness, you probably lose. i had 2 annul 1 krosan grip, but 1st turn bs is only fow and i never drew it after mull to 6 & 5 both games.

tweaked my board for next week, ingot chewer ftw.

[MULocke]

Ok, I need to work on my board for the events coming up (trials, etc), but I haven't had time to test much. My MD is the standard tempo list,as it is pure gold. I've heard good things about disrupt and submerge, but are they really worth cutting slots like krosan grip, etc? Also, what do people think of relic of progenitus? I know somepeople have tested it to great success, and it looks great on paper as an even better submerge. It completely shuts down Team America as goyf is small and tombstalker almost never gets cast, and it splashes well on aggro loam, ichorid, and others. Another thought that occured to me is pyrostatic pillar. It absolutely destroys ANT (this one, I have tested), and while it hurts you it just makes it impossible for combo to do its thing.
The question is if it worth the sb slots, as it is very narrow.

Right now, I have this locked in:
4 Red blasts (2/2 split obv)
2-3 Pyroclasm

Are the above choices worth it, or do I stick with more grips, trygon predator, EE, etc? Assume a large, diverse meta, as I can obviously tweak it if I see more/less of something.

[sauce]

Ok, I need to work on my board for the events coming up (trials, etc), but I haven't had time to test much. My MD is the standard tempo list,as it is pure gold. I've heard good things about disrupt and submerge, but are they really worth cutting slots like krosan grip, etc? Also, what do people think of relic of progenitus? I know somepeople have tested it to great success, and it looks great on paper as an even better submerge. It completely shuts down Team America as goyf is small and tombstalker almost never gets cast, and it splashes well on aggro loam, ichorid, and others. Another thought that occured to me is pyrostatic pillar. It absolutely destroys ANT (this one, I have tested), and while it hurts you it just makes it impossible for combo to do its thing.
The question is if it worth the sb slots, as it is very narrow.

Right now, I have this locked in:
4 Red blasts (2/2 split obv)
2-3 Pyroclasm

Are the above choices worth it, or do I stick with more grips, trygon predator, EE, etc? Assume a large, diverse meta, as I can obviously tweak it if I see more/less of something.

wouldn't Null rod be a tad better than pillar since it also helps shut down affinity?
in the ANT matchup it kills LED/Petal at least.

[MULocke]

wouldn't Null rod be a tad better than pillar since it also helps shut down affinity?
in the ANT matchup it kills LED/Petal at least.

I beat affinity anyway (grips, predator, etc., and pillar does its job much, much better against combo (read: they don't win without a bounce spell first).

[sauce]

I beat affinity anyway (grips, predator, etc., and pillar does its job much, much better against combo (read: they don't win without a bounce spell first).

i am playing 4 disrupts in the board, they rock ANT's world.

[Enigma]

I beat affinity anyway (grips, predator, etc., and pillar does its job much, much better against combo (read: they don't win without a bounce spell first).

You should considere that many ANT players have Angel's grace in their SB if not MD. So I doubt it's an auto-win if not bounced.

PM

[MULocke]

You should considere that many ANT players have Angel's grace in their SB if not MD. So I doubt it's an auto-win if not bounced.

PM

You have a good point. It's not like they're expecting it, but I can see them bringing it in anyway because of the burn. It does force them to have the answer, but I'm just not happy with a card that isn't useful in any other matchup. Anyone else have positive testing with disrupt?

[sauce]

You should considere that many ANT players have Angel's grace in their SB if not MD. So I doubt it's an auto-win if not bounced.

PM

nobody in our meta who runs ANT had that, but they def should.

[Arkarian]

Hello everyone, I would like to join in the discussion about the UGr Tempo Threshold sideboard, I'm quite noob and totally confused about how to make it.
In my meta there's a bit of everything: Survival, Elves, Goblins, Slight, Affinity, Suicide, Team America, Ichorid, 43 Lands, 4c Landstill, Dreadstill, Affinity, Aggroloam, The Rock... that's why I can't have a sideboard so focused in facing control such as: 4x Red elemental blasts 4x Disrupt 4x Submerge 1x Krosan grip 1x EE 1x Pyroclasm

I've thought about something like this: 4x Red elemental blasts 3x Tormod's crypt 2x Krosan grip 2x Pyroclasm 1x Engineered Explosives
That leaves me with 3 free slots but I don't really know what to include, I don't even know what pairings I'm supossed to win and I don't win because of my lack of experience.
Could someone give me some advice please?
By the way, forgive me if I've done some gramatical mistakes or something similar, English is not my mother tongue.
Thanks

[sauce]

Hello everyone, I would like to join in the discussion about the UGr Tempo Threshold sideboard, I'm quite noob and totally confused about how to make it.
In my meta there's a bit of everything: Survival, Elves, Goblins, Slight, Affinity, Suicide, Team America, Ichorid, 43 Lands, 4c Landstill, Dreadstill, Affinity, Aggroloam, The Rock... that's why I can't have a sideboard so focused in facing control such as: 4x Red elemental blasts 4x Disrupt 4x Submerge 1x Krosan grip 1x EE 1x Pyroclasm

I've thought about something like this: 4x Red elemental blasts 3x Tormod's crypt 2x Krosan grip 2x Pyroclasm 1x Engineered Explosives
That leaves me with 3 free slots but I don't really know what to include, I don't even know what pairings I'm supossed to win and I don't win because of my lack of experience.
Could someone give me some advice please?
By the way, forgive me if I've done some gramatical mistakes or something similar, English is not my mother tongue.
Thanks

2 threads of disloyalty (dreadnought)
1 pithing needle (pernicious deed)

[Arkarian]

I've been meditating more about the Tempo Threshold sideboard... A sideboard like: 4x REB 4x Submerge 2x Pyroclasm 2x Krosan grip 2x Gilded drake 1x EE wouldn't be ok? I mean, with Submerge Gilded drake is cool and in a desperate situation we can stifle him to have a 3/3 flyer; it's also useful against Ichorid because if you don't want to exchange it goes to the graveyard, removing bridges... The lack of Tormod's crypt could be bad, but stealing the opponents creatures could be interesting. What do you think?

[sauce]

I've been meditating more about the Tempo Threshold sideboard... A sideboard like: 4x REB 4x Submerge 2x Pyroclasm 2x Krosan grip 2x Gilded drake 1x EE wouldn't be ok? I mean, with Submerge Gilded drake is cool and in a desperate situation we can stifle him to have a 3/3 flyer; it's also useful against Ichorid because if you don't want to exchange it goes to the graveyard, removing bridges... The lack of Tormod's crypt could be bad, but stealing the opponents creatures could be interesting. What do you think?

your ichorid matchup is never going to be positive unless your whole board is dedicated to it, imho... you just burn their guys so they have a hard time dread returning/cabal therapying you and swing in with goyfs while wastelanding/stifling the coliseum threshold and forcing the breakthrough.

[Arsenal]

Is there a clear cut verdict on Quirion Dryad vs. Werebear? On deckcheck.net, I see them both being played with reasonable frequency, and each creature has advantages/disadvantages that are unique. Is it a personal preference or is there a legitimate reason why one is supposed to be run over the other?

[sauce]

can someone share their experience vs geddon-staxx?
my board has:
2 annul
3 krosan grip

i think spell snare is only useful vs chalice @ 1 in this matchup, but still i would keep it as i can pitch it to force otherwise.. im not sure if i should just take out 2 spell snares for 2 annul and then 3 bolts for 3 grips?

i know fire/ice is ok to tap down trinisphere during their eot so you can cast some spells on your turn or tap down magus to get in for dmg w/ goyf...

daze is really good as they often times tap out to cast their bombs.

the worst card for us in this matchup seems to be crucible cuz i only auto lose to that resolving due to wasteland lock = gg.

stifle seems to help alot against their wastelands as well while we wasteland their stompy lands...

how do you guys play against this matchup besides what i mentioned?
what type of hands do you try to mull into besides the obv FoW/annul/grip combos?

[spirit of the wretch]

So I won the monthly Hassloch tournament yesterday (35 people) playing my latest Next Level Grow list that featured 2 Snakeform and 3 Fire/Ice in the metagame-slots. Despite playing the Grow-mirror for 5 straight matches Snakeform never did anything for me other than pitch to FoW. Pretty disappointing! F/I wasn't that great either, but as it really shines in the Tribal-Aggro MU, cycles, pitches to FoW and provides reach, I'll keep playing them.
At the moment I'm tinkering with Vedillion Clique or more likely Krosan Grip (yeah, a fricking third of the decks played yesterday contained CB) to replace Snakeform.
Anyway, has any of you guys some tech to make the mirror (against Thresh with CB) more favorable?
Oh, and Quirion Dryade is a real powerhouse! MVP all day.

[Smog]

Has this build ever considered dropping a couple of each dual to get some basics in to help against b2b / wasteland lock / etc?

[spirit of the wretch]

When it comes to nonbasic hate, I think the manabase is pretty resistant (as a matter of fact, it's the old MoonThresh manabase):
Blood Moon doesn't effect this deck all too much, if you get down an island and an forest (Magus of the Moon isn't a problem at all, obviously).
You can play around BtB if you expect it (and in MU where you expect BtB post board, you most likely want to board in some Pyroblasts anyway).
The only concern are recurring Wastelands. I never had a problem with the manabase (and haven't even thought about changing it since I picked up the deck), but if nonbasic hate runs rampant in your metagame you can go down to two copies of each dual and 5 basic lands (Clemens Thresh/w list ran this configuration).

[Muradin]

If you want to improve your matchup against CB Threshold you should probably be running some Krosan Grips in your sideboard. Besides I think that you build is already quite well equipped for the mirror match. Another possibility might be the addition of some Spell Snares in the maindeck as they are quite versatile and can counter some of the most important cards in the CB-Threshold mirror (Goyf, CB). At least that's what they are supposed to do in this matchup when you are playing with Canadian Threshold against Counterbalance Threshold.

[Shugyosha]

Anyway, has any of you guys some tech to make the mirror (against Thresh with CB) more favorable?
Oh, and Quirion Dryade is a real powerhouse! MVP all day.

With so many CB in your meta I would consider Vexing Shusher, so you won't always loose if your opponent has Balance first.
Cryptic Command is also quite nice in mirrors and against control if you can get to 5 mana (against Daze).

[Smog]

What is the general concensus in regards to countertop or trigon in a canadian thrash build? Or does their inclusion take it too far from tradition for the deck to even be called that?

[sauce]

What is the general concensus in regards to countertop or trigon in a canadian thrash build? Or does their inclusion take it too far from tradition for the deck to even be called that?

cb is too slow when youre trying to stifle/wasteland things. trygon can go in the board if you really want it. i rather play grip.

[Enigma]

I've just partcipated to the Time walk beta tournament in Montreal. There was 55 players and I finish 5th with Next Level Grow /r, here's my list:


// Lands
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Forest
3 Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator

// Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
2 Predict
4 Force of Will
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Fire/Ice
1 Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Price of Progress
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Firespout
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

I was anticipating a lot of Landstill (they all play Elspeth or Deed) so I really wanted something against Elspeth MD, which been the Needle. I also knew a couple of guys playing chalice.dec (1x Dragon Stompy, 2x Faerie Stompy, 1x Stax...) so I decided to play the trygons MD as Stefen(spirit of the wretch) does. I decided to play the Goose and they have been so great all day long. Both Needle and Trygons has been good against Merfolk also which I faced thrice. A lot of aggro hate on the Board, and the top8 really sees how many aggro decks was present today:


1-2. Survival Elves
1-2. BW Fish (jitte, bob, Mother of runes, Serra avenger, Sinkhole...)
3-4. Merfolk
3-4. Merfolk
5. Next Level grow (me)
6. Eva green
7. ANT
8. UWB Landstill
(Not still sure about positions 6-8 but sure about mine)

What I faced:

First round:
1-2 against Merfolk

1: I win toss. I decide to go aggro with 2 goose and a goyf but wake thrasher + LoA has just been too much quick.
2. He play 2 vials but I kill all his creatures with Fire/ice, bolt and pyroblast and goes for the win with Trygon predator.
3. He forces my goyf. I'm able to take care of Loa and Reejerey but he's beating me down with 2 Cursecatcher. Trygon comes too late.

0-1

Second round:
2-0 against UGW Winter Thresh

1. Loss toss. He play Mox Diamond + goose first turn. I cast my mongoose. He's stick on 1 land + 1 Mox and I'm able to daze everything. I finish him with my gooses having thresh and goyf.
2. Pretty much the same scenario. I deal with everything he does except his Ghostly prisons, which I really don't care of. Goyf win.

1-1

Third round:
2-0 against UR Dreadstill

1. Loss toss. He mulligan at 6. I manage to have CB + goyf and bolting his Mishra's. I don't see a single stifle/Dreadnought but the standstill+volcanic says me it's dreadstill.
2. I go quick CB again and slowly go with mongoose and then Trygon predator which keep him far from top/relic/CB.

2-1

Fourth round:
2-0 against WB Fish

1. Loss toss. He plays first turn Mother of runes but I have needle for it. He's stuck on 2 lands and I daze pretty much everything and finish him with Goose + Tarmo even after 3 Path to exile on my tarmogoyfs.
2. I force his 1st turn vial when he kept a 1 land hand with 2x Mother of runes, 1x Dark confidant and 1 jitte. I fire/ice all his creatures and slowly go for boosted goose while he's again stuck on 2 lands.

3-1

Fifth round:
2-0 against Imperial Painter

1. Loss toss. 1st turn top for me. He takes me at 8 with an Imperial + a Painter but I have CB down. I finally find a goyf and a fire/ice + a bolt to attack on a clear board.
2. 1st turn top again and 3rd turn CB. Pretty much the same situation.

4-1

6th round:
2-1 against Merfolk

1. Win toss. 1st turn top. He puts me at 13 with Cursecatcher but my mongoose grow quickly and I manage to have 2 goyfs finishing the job.
2. I put him at 4 with goyf, predator and a goose but a shit turn with Wake + Loa puts be down on 1 turn.
3. CB + Needle on Vial shuts him down and double goyf finish the job.

5-1

Top 8:
0-2 against the same Merfolk

1. Loss toss. He has 2 quick Curse and me 1 goyf putting him at 7. He finds a Loa + Kira and he just goes more quick,
2. He calms my goyf with 2 relic and while he's at 11, he puts 6 merfolk on the same turn with Reejerey, untaping vial and lands + Loa. I find Pyroclasm next turn but it's been too much because he has Loa + 2 Reejerey so they are all 4/4 and 4/3.

I take the 40$ and let the aggro decks go top4.

[Omega]

I played at the same tournament but played something "weaker"

4 tarmogoyf
4 quirion dryad (he was MVP in most MU)
4 nimble mongoose

4 fow
4 daze

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 sleight of hand (worst card, ever)

4 lighting bolt
3 fire/ice
1 rolling earthquake (good all day)

2 krosan grip (I met 0 CB... 0 dreadstilll)
2 rushing River (one of the worst card, of my deck)

18 lands

2-0 Against Dragon Stompy. He mulls to five, so just win. Game 2, I somehow survive to trinisphere and Blood Moon. My Quirion Dryad was 9/9 and beat him to death

1-2 Against Painter Servant : He goes nuts game 1, and i lose because i keep bad hands. Game 2, he goes nuts again. Turn 1 painter (no counter from me, yea). He plays 4 Red Blast on me, so im stuck with 0 lands

2-0 Against Goblin. Game one, i simply own him with Tarmogoyf and Quirion Dryad (have i said how much i love them?)
Game 2, i have a triple pyroclasm hand, 1 ponder, 1 mongoose and 2 fetch. The game is won already. (Well not already, my ponder could have failed me...)

2-0 Against Counterslive. Game one, i double force of will to save my tarmogoyf (he stp, i fow, he fows, i fow again). I win the game. Game two, my quirion dryads were 6/6 and 7/7. The beat him down to death.

1-2 Against Merfolk. Game one, i lose because i can't read cards, or because i can't judge a card. He played Wake ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresher (+1/1 when you untap permanent). I can burn it, i dont. So i attack, he obviously doesnt block. He start tapping his vial and turn his muta into man. He untaps 6 permanents and swing for 7. Im still not burning. He swings again. Im down to 4. And suddenly, i realize how strong Wake ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresher is. I burn it. But the game is already over. GG me.
Game two. Quirion Dryads do what they are supposed to do (he had 2 relic of progenitus in play. LAUGH!)
Game Three : I keep a crappy hand (im good at this). 2 land, 1 sleight of hand (have i said how bad these were?), 2 quirion dryad, 1 nimble mongoose, 1 tarmogoyf. He wins the game, because i dont see anything blue/red after that sleight of hand.

Im 3-2, i know im out. So i play out. 0-2 against aggro loam.

Anyway, it was a good tournament. Red Thresh is best at against tribal deck. But i feel it is not good enough against mirror or control. Needs more tuning and testings

Robert

[cwt1220]

I don't know if this has been talked about before or not, but is volcanic fallout better than pyroclasm in the board? I can't decide what I want to play in Chicago. They both have there pros and cons, but I would like to hear from other players on the subject. Thanks:wink:

-Chris-

[Smog]

I prefer pyroclasm as it comes online a turn earlier.

[spirit of the wretch]

In my opinion Pyroclasm > Firesprout >> Volcanic Fallout.

Fallout basically only has the advanage in the Merfolk MU and even there the casting cost of Pyroclasm might also do the trick (read: protect you from Daze and Cursecatcher).

[Shugyosha]

Volcanic Fallout also deals two damage to players which isn't good when playing the control role.

Firespout is really good to finish of Goyfsligh creatures while leaving your Trygons alone but I guess in a Goyfsligh heavy meta one wouldn't play this deck anyways.

[undone]

I am playing traditional canadian threshold (4s across the board save 1/1 bounce spells and 2/2/2 fetch lands) What changes can be made to this build possibly against the bounce spells to change this? I was thinking vendillion clique over a bounce spell might be good as it gets in there for 3 and makes sure it lives once it resolves.

[Shugyosha]

I am playing traditional canadian threshold (4s across the board save 1/1 bounce spells and 2/2/2 fetch lands) What changes can be made to this build possibly against the bounce spells to change this? I was thinking vendillion clique over a bounce spell might be good as it gets in there for 3 and makes sure it lives once it resolves.

Me and my teammate were quite (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22525) successful (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22527) with Vendilion Clique. It's really awesome as 1-off, as it surprises the opponent and almost always connects more than once. It's just never dead.
But you should run it over F/I because its the worst card in the deck and you usually don't want to see too many of them. Don't get me wrong F/I is still good but 3 copies are enough. Bounce on the other hand swings so many games that I would never cut it. I also rarely board both bounce spells out.

[Henrik]

@post above

Hey, that is a pretty neat decklist! Quite inspiring. Winter orb in the board looks like a sweet tech, but in what specific matchups do you board it in?

No love for pyroclasm, disrupt or submerge?

[RogueMTG]

What is the general concensus in regards to countertop or trigon in a canadian thrash build? Or does their inclusion take it too far from tradition for the deck to even be called that?

I tried out Canadian Trash w/Trygon @ the Binghamton Duel for Duals tournament. I was thinking there was going to be a lot of Dreadstill & Merfolk so I tried to plan accordingly

Went 3-2-1 into the top 16 (bleh). Heres what I played:

Main Deck:
Lands (18):
2 Foothills
2 Strand
2 Delta
3 Trop
3 Volcanic
3 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest

Creatures (10):
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Trygon Predator

Spells (32):
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fire/Ice
3 Daze
1 Rushing River
1 Wipe Away

Silly Sideboard:
2 MERFOLK ASSASSIN
2 REB
2 Pyroblast
1 Volcanic Fallout
2 Firespout
2 Disrupt
1 Fire/Ice
2 Echoing Truth
1 Krosan Grip

I threw the deck together 10 minutes before heading out to the tournament, I had never played it before round 1:

Round 1 -forgot to record his name, oops- (UWb) Landstill: (Loss 0-2 / 0-1 Total).
Game 1: Landstill does what it does, he has an answer for everything I play and eventually finished me w/Solider tokens.

Game 2: I mulligan to five, the game still takes FOREVER, I end up losing to DOUBLE Eternal Dragon beats.

Round 2 Josh playing Merfolk: (Win 2-0 / 1-1 Total).
Game 1: I see all four bolts and 2 Fire/Ice. His dudes stand no chance, and I get there w/Tarmo Beats.

Game 2: I side in 4 Blasts, the 2 Assassins and my sweepers. Land a Trygon Predator that mauls his Vials. Blasts/burn clean up his dudes and eventually I finish him w/double bolt to the dome.

Round 3 Ryan playing UW Dreadstill: (Tie 1-1 / 1-1-1 Total).
Game 1: I land an early Mongoose, and ride him to victory, countering everything relevant.

Game 2: I try the same strategy w/Tarmogoyf, I manage to get him to 1 life before he finally deals w/the goyf. We go into top-deck mode, except he has a Top and I don't, he finds Counterbalance before I find a burn spell. Eventually time is called and we head into turns, he eventually gets me w/Trinket Mage + Factory beats on the last possible turn. D:.

Round 4 Eric Playing GB Rock: (Win 2-0 / 2-1-1 Total).
Game 1: He gets mana boned. Quick victory w/a turn 2 tarm. I don't side at all.

Game 2: He chooses to play, drops a fetch and cracks it for a Bayou before I have stifle mana open. I do however, have a wasteland, and it ends up wrecking him to the point of not playing any other spells the entire game.

Round 5 Brian Playing UGb Confidant Thresh: (Win 1-1-1, 3-1-1 Total).
Game 1: All these games were good, stressful, and tended to swing back and forth. I managed to win game one on the back of a turn 1 Nimble Mongoose. I try to keep his threats off the table w/countermagic & burn, I eventually win by EOT Wipe Awaying his Tarm to get in there for 3 w/the goose, and then toss a bolt at his face.

Game 2: We trade Geese early, and then he Reanimate's mine and starts beating me with it. (he be disrespectin' the goose O_O!) He lands Confidant, it almost kills him flipping things like FoW, but he smother's it in time and eventually gets me w/Tarmo + Mongeese beats.

Game 3: We enter into a more back and forth kind of game. Eventually we go into turns, both at super low life, neither of us manage to kill the other. I go "damn, can't make it w/another tie.." He thinks for a minute, decides he's not going to make top 8 either way, and graciously scoops to me so I can have a chance at getting in if I win the next round. Awesome dude.

Round 6 Anthony Playing Merfolk (Loss 1-2 / 3-2-1 Total)
While shuffling up we discuss some of the matchup's, he asks how my merfolk matchup seems to be, I told him: "It seems pretty good, hopefully that's what you're playing?" and his buddy (Josh, the merfolk guy I beat in round 2) came over and told him to watch out for me, I'm tricky >_>. Turns out Anthony was friends w/my best bud Travis, small world.

With both of us at X-1-1, we're playing for the last spot in the Top 8, which means at least a playset of Duals.

Game 1: Just like game 1 of round two, bolt + fire/ice take care of his dudes, and I get in there with beats. Fast game.

Game 2: I have to mulligan to 5 again, I keep a shakey one lander but I have have ponder and 2x Brainstorm. I see no lands with any of them, and eventually I lose to double Aether Vial beats. Fast game the other direction.

Game 3: See game 2... more mulliganing, more one land hands. My first turn ponder finds nothing useful, I shuffle, draw a brainstorm. He has Daze for my brainstorm, and then wasteland for my only remaining land. I fail to draw any more mana sources and die shortly after.

Well, that match sucked, it was the first match the deck seemed like it wasn't running smoothly. But that happens sometimes.

Anthony went on to wreck the top 8 and take the top 2 split, which I know I wouldn't have done (2 Ichorid decks in there, that I had ZERO plan against outside of E-Truthing Zombie Tokens), so good for him.

I ended up in exactly 16th place, taking home some store credit.

Final Thoughts:
Trygon Predator: was ok, he shouldn't be more than a 2 of though if you run him. The flying was more relevant than the destruction ability, I almost always wished he was Serendib Efreet instead.

Fire/Ice: Should have been 4x in the MD, it was just plain good.

Merfolk Assassin: My goal of the day was to wreck someone w/merfolk assassin, unfortunately I never drew him when I did play against merfolk, and every pre-board game against merfolk went better than SB games. He was worth the Laughs when I put him on the table after de-boarding, but that slot should probably be something useful in the future.

[Shugyosha]

@post above

Hey, that is a pretty neat decklist! Quite inspiring. Winter orb in the board looks like a sweet tech, but in what specific matchups do you board it in?

No love for pyroclasm, disrupt or submerge?

Depends on the meta. I like Submerge a lot but I still don't see why Disrupt should be good. There are better cards in my opinion. In the meta at that time I also didn't need Clasm and I think Tempo Thresh can do without them very well anyways.

[Smog]

I was considering trying a ugrw build.


// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills

3 [A] Tropical Island
2 [R] Volcanic Island
2 [R] Tundra

1 [5E] Island (3)
1 [9E] Forest (3)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
2 [OD] Mystic Enforcer

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder

4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DD2] Daze

4 [B] Lightning Bolt
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares

4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top


Thoughts?

[spirit of the wretch]

-12 cards with CC2 isn't tech with CB. This curve will weaken CB extremely!
-17 lands don't seem enough to support 4 colours. I'd rather play 18. Alix Hatfield's mana base from the duel for duals looked quite nice (-the dryade land obviously):
4 flooded strand
4 wooded foothills
2 city of brass
2 tropical island
2 tundra
2 volcanic island
1 plateau
1 dryad arbor

[Smog]

UGbw runs cb with an even steeper curve @2 quite successfully.

[Henrik]

Depends on the meta. I like Submerge a lot but I still don't see why Disrupt should be good. There are better cards in my opinion. In the meta at that time I also didn't need Clasm and I think Tempo Thresh can do without them very well anyways.

Agreed, I haven't found disrupt very useful either, but I am quite dependent of both submerge and clasm, since I face a lot of both aggro loam and tribals. But I am interested in your use of winter orb, could you please elaborate on this? What matchups does it come in? I am guessing control such as MUC and landstill, but please, enlighten me of your use of it.

[Shugyosha]

but I am quite dependent of both submerge and clasm, since I face a lot of both aggro loam and tribals.

Yeah that's exactly the matchups I like to run these cards, too.


But I am interested in your use of winter orb, could you please elaborate on this? What matchups does it come in? I am guessing control such as MUC and landstill, but please, enlighten me of your use of it.

Well, in theory they come in against control decks to have something against their lands in case Waste/Stifle didn't screw them during the first turns (which sadly happens quite often when I play). In addition to MUC and LS they are also meant to be used against Rock and Survival (not the Elf variant). I tried them against Loam but they are too shaky here because of Mox Diamond.
Overall I wasn't satisfied with Winter Orb in the board, though. You don't have Werebear/Vial like Winterthresh and its often kinda dead because the problem is already on the board or their manabase is already in ruins. So I would play other cards instead that are more in the "direct answer" department.

[undone]

Is the red varient of counter threshold better or worse than the white one considering the new natural order "combo" because it seems like white does a better job of keeping them off the board with counter top and farmers than red does as farmers gets the goyf before they play natural order and counter balance makes sure goose doesnt land to be food.

[Atog]

What do we bring against enchantress and angelstax? PoP? Have you guys tested Divert? I'm going to test that weekend, just wondering that to cut from side.. -1x pyroblast, -1x pyroclasm and -1x hydroblast? Just expecting many EvaGreens and MBS so it would make cut against them :)

[spirit of the wretch]

The meta slots were filled with F/I (which was ok) and Snakeform (which was aweful)

[MULocke]

The meta slots were filled with F/I (which was ok) and Snakeform (which was aweful)

Ok, testing has shown that submerge is the nuts (at least vs Team America), but disrupt has been very weak. This is the board I have so far:

4 Submerge
2 Krosan Grip
4 REB
2 Pyroclasm

3 open slots

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with only 2 clasms/aggro slots, and it could use more artifact removal in the form of another grip or two or possibly some trygon predators. Is boarding in Commandeers and a Progenitus too cute? Right now, the slots are the 3rd grip and 2 threads (do I need these with submerge?).

[sauce]

Ok, testing has shown that submerge is the nuts (at least vs Team America), but disrupt has been very weak. This is the board I have so far:

4 Submerge
2 Krosan Grip
4 REB
2 Pyroclasm

3 open slots

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with only 2 clasms/aggro slots, and it could use more artifact removal in the form of another grip or two or possibly some trygon predators. Is boarding in Commandeers and a Progenitus too cute? Right now, the slots are the 3rd grip and 2 threads (do I need these with submerge?).

i replaced my submerges with relics and i think they are more relevant across the board

[undone]

Ok, testing has shown that submerge is the nuts (at least vs Team America), but disrupt has been very weak. This is the board I have so far:

4 Submerge
2 Krosan Grip
4 REB
2 Pyroclasm

3 open slots

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with only 2 clasms/aggro slots, and it could use more artifact removal in the form of another grip or two or possibly some trygon predators. Is boarding in Commandeers and a Progenitus too cute? Right now, the slots are the 3rd grip and 2 threads (do I need these with submerge?).

I like the board but +1 clasm seems important. Also commandeers seem awsome in the mirror when played carefuly getting CBs tops and natural orders (Even with no progen) is a 3/4 for 1 depending on how you look at it

-1 natural order
-1 Green man
-1 proge
+1 goyf for you

You actualy net a card in this exchange but to be honest commandeer seems REALLY greedy, if your terribly afrade of progenist just play reins of power. Its really funny that a 2UU Deal 10 to you burn spell exists but it does infact exist. I dont think that the 10/10 will make a huge impact but if it does reins of power seems like an awsome answer. I bolt you at EOT putting you at 9/10 swing with your own prog win.

Its also great against dreadnaught and stalker.

<---- Knows his crappy tempest cards.

[MULocke]

i replaced my submerges with relics and i think they are more relevant across the board

I tested relics too, but they had nowhere the impact that submerge did. The problem (speaking mostly towards the mirror and TA) is that it hurts you, too and it's really hard to keep their creatures small and off the table while keeping your own big. Sumberge has a definite and game-swinging impact on the board, and they're free. I can see them helping against loam as well, but submerge is really solid there, too. The only place where relic is better is against ichorid, which a few slots don't really help enough to swing the match in your favor.

@undone: commandeer seems great if it works, but really greedy. The real problem is that I need to hold onto my blue spells while staying in the game. Is it useful anywhere else? What do we think about threads for the goyf war and dreadstill?

[undone]

@undone: commandeer seems great if it works, but really greedy. The real problem is that I need to hold onto my blue spells while staying in the game. Is it useful anywhere else? What do we think about threads for the goyf war and dreadstill?

Commandeer is infact very greedy. Thats the point. If you want it the next best targets to my knowlage are counter, top, FoF, Intution, and anything that grants CA, but they are SO greedy I wouldnt advise it.

Threads is a great way to win the war but with the mass of annoying prog and dreadstill sucks ;) but seriously seems like due to our large burn suite we should just play reins of power it also solves you hidiously bad aggro loam matchup just dont spend the waste lands on wasteing.

Im not saying its a great answer but if your concerned about just large men it is infact one of the best answers.

Threads seems like the best overall answer followed by sower/control magic (Sower seems worse unless they have predator/grip)

[MULocke]

Commandeer is infact very greedy. Thats the point. If you want it the next best targets to my knowlage are counter, top, FoF, Intution, and anything that grants CA, but they are SO greedy I wouldnt advise it.

Threads is a great way to win the war but with the mass of annoying prog and dreadstill sucks ;) but seriously seems like due to our large burn suite we should just play reins of power it also solves you hidiously bad aggro loam matchup just dont spend the waste lands on wasteing.

Im not saying its a great answer but if your concerned about just large men it is infact one of the best answers.

Threads seems like the best overall answer followed by sower/control magic (Sower seems worse unless they have predator/grip)

I'm not really sure I'm happy with four-mana answers with only 14 real lands, and something really narrow like commandeer seems weak as well. That's why I'm proposing threads right now. My other thought with threads is that I can probably get away with two pyroclasms that way (maybe?). Another option is predators to shore up the dreadstill and stax matchups.

[Shugyosha]

Predator is too slow and fragile in this deck. It always sucked for me. Ancient Grudge is the Artifact hate to go if you are looking for something that complements Grip. It's an extremely hard hitting card against Dreadstill, Affinity and Landstill.

[MULocke]

Predator is too slow and fragile in this deck. It always sucked for me. Ancient Grudge is the Artifact hate to go if you are looking for something that complements Grip. It's an extremely hard hitting card against Dreadstill, Affinity and Landstill.

The problem with grudge is that it doesn't hit counterbalance, deed, or humility. I guess I could have one or two for stax, but predator seems beter for that.

[undone]

The problem with grudge is that it doesn't hit counterbalance, deed, or humility. I guess I could have one or two for stax, but predator seems beter for that.

I hate grudge if you dont expect 1X10^100 affinity decks

More grips is fine infact with the above SB I would make my board

2 Threads
2 Clasm
3 Grip
2 REB
2 pyroblast
4 submerge (or should it be 3 and a 3rd clasm)

[johanessen]

what about changing mongeese for lavamancers?

[Atog]

what about changing mongeese for lavamancers?

Nope. Goyfs won't like them at first. Second, we have plenty of burn so that won't be too a reason play them.

[Henrik]

Depends on the build I guess.

At first I thought it didn't sound that terrible of an idea at all, but soon realised that a lavamancer will have a hard time dealing as much damage as a mongoose will in a tempobuild, considering how fast that deck reach threshold and that mongoose won't be removed so easily. So no there, definately.

In the red CB builds I guess you could try him out, but i'll be surprised if he proves better than the already played dryads or predators.

[MULocke]

He just doesn't beat control like you need him to. Every game I've ever won against landstill, etc has come on the back of a 3/3 with shroud because control has to work so hard to get rid of him. Lavamancer seems cute, but mongoose is just better in that slot.

[undone]

He just doesn't beat control like you need him to. Every game I've ever won against landstill, etc has come on the back of a 3/3 with shroud because control has to work so hard to get rid of him. Lavamancer seems cute, but mongoose is just better in that slot.

Mongoose is better against the decks you lose to(control). Dryad is better against the decks you win against (aggro)

The options for the goose slot are 4 goose or 4 Q dryad. I personaly think goose is far better, but in the goblin infested metagame, or a metagame where you need an extra 4 1G abyss creatures instead of 1 mana untargetable elephants. Qurian is better in some metagames but in general theres a reason goose dispite peoples constant "This card sucks" attitude its still in the deck. You know why? Because 3/3s for 1 mana are awsome and big enough, the fact its near immune to removal makes it over the top.

Goose isnt just fat, its fat that demands a fatter answer or you lose.

[Smog]

I know goose is losing popularity, and I tried cutting him for one tournament, and I never will again.

Goose is still amazing. If you don't agree, that's fine, don't play him.

[Atog]

Mongoose is better against the decks you lose to(control). Dryad is better against the decks you win against (aggro)

The options for the goose slot are 4 goose or 4 Q dryad. I personaly think goose is far better, but in the goblin infested metagame, or a metagame where you need an extra 4 1G abyss creatures instead of 1 mana untargetable elephants. Qurian is better in some metagames but in general theres a reason goose dispite peoples constant "This card sucks" attitude its still in the deck. You know why? Because 3/3s for 1 mana are awsome and big enough, the fact its near immune to removal makes it over the top.

Goose isnt just fat, its fat that demands a fatter answer or you lose.

I agree that mongoose won't die in direct removal BUT if opponent resolves deed / ee example that won't really matter do you have mongoose or dryad in play, because they will pop that deed@2 or EE@1 at least. So there goes your nimble, dryads and tarmos. Yes, dryad dies to Stop and Snuff out but you have counters to protect that guy and if opponent finds answer in time, i think that dryad have make some serious damage, more than mongoose. Also, that mongoose sucks in mirror. Dryad will grow up bigger and faster almost always than mongoose (atleast if that dryad stays game).

[Smog]

I agree that mongoose won't die in direct removal BUT if opponent resolves deed / ee example that won't really matter do you have mongoose or dryad in play, because they will pop that deed@2 or EE@1 at least. So there goes your nimble, dryads and tarmos. Yes, dryad dies to Stop and Snuff out but you have counters to protect that guy and if opponent finds answer in time, i think that dryad have make some serious damage, more than mongoose. Also, that mongoose sucks in mirror. Dryad will grow up bigger and faster almost always than mongoose (atleast if that dryad stays game).


You basically just argued the very reason that mongoose is typically better than dryad: because you don't NEED to waste valuable counters to protect him from single-target removal. You set marks against mongoose because he can be deed'd or EE'd and say that we can just counter-protect the dryad.

How about just using those counters to keep the sweepers and other larger threats off the board and let mongoose protect himself from the single-target hate?

[undone]

You basically just argued the very reason that mongoose is typically better than dryad: because you don't NEED to waste valuable counters to protect him from single-target removal. You set marks against mongoose because he can be deed'd or EE'd and say that we can just counter-protect the dryad.

How about just using those counters to keep the sweepers and other larger threats off the board and let mongoose protect himself from the single-target hate?

Exactly. I COULD see boarding some for the UGR tempo mirror where its all about HUGE men where that lady might come in really handy but outside of that shes not worth it. And even in the mirror I would rather have threads.

also the arguement that goose dies to mass removal (Which dies to counters, stifles, and bounce spells) is a rather pathetic excuse. As dryad does as well.

Goose is as good and as awsome as he ever was. The next creature I would add to this deck would be Vendillion clique over 1 fire/ice and only in a counter top metagame.

Simply put no goose = bad.

EDIT: my side board has been wanting for a long time but I finaly broke down and switched it up. It now looks like

3 Tormads crypt
3 Price of progress
2 submerge
2 Krosan grips
2 Trygon predators
3 Pyroclasm

Price of progress is such a bomb it wins so many matches by itself (lands, landstill, aggro loam, exct) It isnt great in all matchups but its so strong that it needs to be in the board to prevent losses to random good "blue" decks.

[Shriekmaw]

EDIT: my side board has been wanting for a long time but I finaly broke down and switched it up. It now looks like

3 Tormads crypt
3 Price of progress
2 submerge
2 Krosan grips
2 Trygon predators
3 Pyroclasm




I don't think Tormod's Crypt is necessary in your board if your playing Canadian Threshold (Tempo Thresh). The Ichorid matchup is very good main deck, and adding crypts is just over kill. I would rather dedeciate those slots for additional submerges and red blasts (REB/Pyroblast).

The sideboard should be built with theshold mirror matches in mind b/c a good percentage of the time, thats what you will be playing against. I do like the card disrupt for this scenario very much.

Current Board:

2 REB
2 Pyroblast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroclasm
3 Submerge
4 Disrupt

[Atog]

You basically just argued the very reason that mongoose is typically better than dryad: because you don't NEED to waste valuable counters to protect him from single-target removal. You set marks against mongoose because he can be deed'd or EE'd and say that we can just counter-protect the dryad.

How about just using those counters to keep the sweepers and other larger threats off the board and let mongoose protect himself from the single-target hate?

Ok, lets make it this way. Mongoose is too vulnerable for graveyard hate. Example merfolks novadays play relic in main. What mongoose is doing to that? When you reach threshhold (maybe take some while often) merfolk player drops relic and pops that. So now we have again small shroud creature what dies every creature what opponent has. You will argument that other decks won't play relic main and i won't argue against that. But if players just except thresh/loam/dredge they will pack relics/leylines/crypts in sideboard. Those relic and other hate make our tarmos small what won't be effective against dryad what don't care about graveyard all. That is the point why i'm going to play it over mongoose. We pack also cb/top so we can usually protect dryad, while burning opponent head or creatures AND growing dryad same time. Mongoose just sticks 3/3 what is my biggest concenrn. Well i play tomorrow those dryads in local tournament and i can report here how they worked for me. If they were bad you get laughts :)

One question, is there any sence to side PoPs against dredge / and t.e.s. / ANT? Dredge plays 10~ non-basics so that could make some damage. Tes plays some more.. Just seeing sceneratio where ANT is playing and resolving Ad Nauseam and going low life when searching enought stuff to go leathal, just when they try to play tendrils you play response that PoP. That could prompt some noise other side of table :)

[undone]

Ok, lets make it this way. Mongoose is too vulnerable for graveyard hate. Example merfolks novadays play relic in main. What mongoose is doing to that? When you reach threshhold (maybe take some while often) merfolk player drops relic and pops that. So now we have again small shroud creature what dies every creature what opponent has. You will argument that other decks won't play relic main and i won't argue against that. But if players just except thresh/loam/dredge they will pack relics/leylines/crypts in sideboard. Those relic and other hate make our tarmos small what won't be effective against dryad what don't care about graveyard all. That is the point why i'm going to play it over mongoose. We pack also cb/top so we can usually protect dryad, while burning opponent head or creatures AND growing dryad same time. Mongoose just sticks 3/3 what is my biggest concenrn. Well i play tomorrow those dryads in local tournament and i can report here how they worked for me. If they were bad you get laughts :)

One question, is there any sence to side PoPs against dredge / and t.e.s. / ANT? Dredge plays 10~ non-basics so that could make some damage. Tes plays some more.. Just seeing sceneratio where ANT is playing and resolving Ad Nauseam and going low life when searching enought stuff to go leathal, just when they try to play tendrils you play response that PoP. That could prompt some noise other side of table :)

Relic is just as good against goose as it is against goyf. Why not cut goyf:rolleyes:

I also never said dryad was bad I simply said you needed geese. The reason being goose>swords>Guys that arent 3/X's Also dryad is alot better with counter top in play but with counter top in play white does it better so it shouldnt be in red. And in white thresh you just play prog + natural order+ wearbears over a measly 8/8 dryad. Dryad just doesnt belong there are better options available if your in white and if your in red you probably should be playing swans/moon or not playing CB.

There might be sense to side them in against TES and ANT (like over bounce or something) but not against dredge, dredge is too fast for that crap.

[Atog]

Relic is just as good against goose as it is against goyf. Why not cut goyf:rolleyes:

I also never said dryad was bad I simply said you needed geese. The reason being goose>swords>Guys that arent 3/X's Also dryad is alot better with counter top in play but with counter top in play white does it better so it shouldnt be in red. And in white thresh you just play prog + natural order+ wearbears over a measly 8/8 dryad. Dryad just doesnt belong there are better options available if your in white and if your in red you probably should be playing swans/moon or not playing CB.

There might be sense to side them in against TES and ANT (like over bounce or something) but not against dredge, dredge is too fast for that crap.

Hmm, if those dryads are so much weaker than mongoose how do you explain this?

UGR-thresh with dryads 1st (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23354)
?

If you look recent lists, you will notice there is plenty other list what play dryad over mongoose too and have get in top8.

[spirit of the wretch]

Hmm, if those dryads are so much weaker than mongoose how do you explain this?


Because (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22373) I'm (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22724) awesome (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23354)!

And this


if your in red you probably should be playing swans/moon or not playing CB.

is just completly wrong!

[undone]

Because (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22373) I'm (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22724) awesome (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23354)!

And this



is just completly wrong!

ok, or dryad thresh as the above links indicate, I have yet to play dryad thresh although I think it can be good as long as you play CB to protect it.


Hmm, if those dryads are so much weaker than mongoose how do you explain this?

UGR-thresh with dryads 1st
?

If you look recent lists, you will notice there is plenty other list what play dryad over mongoose too and have get in top8.

I just noticed that almost every single deck that runs dryad also runs CB and I assume establishes Counter top befor playing it or immediately after playing it as to keep her alive while shes frail.

[Smog]

Hmm, if those dryads are so much weaker than mongoose how do you explain this?

UGR-thresh with dryads 1st (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23354)
?

If you look recent lists, you will notice there is plenty other list what play dryad over mongoose too and have get in top8.


I could do the exact same thing, and show you more examples, with mongoose decks.

But whatever, play what you want. I'd rather see every other thresh deck out there running dryad.

[Waikiki]

I don't think Tormod's Crypt is necessary in your board if your playing Canadian Threshold (Tempo Thresh). The Ichorid matchup is very good main deck, and adding crypts is just over kill. I would rather dedeciate those slots for additional submerges and red blasts (REB/Pyroblast).

The sideboard should be built with theshold mirror matches in mind b/c a good percentage of the time, thats what you will be playing against. I do like the card disrupt for this scenario very much.

Current Board:

2 REB
2 Pyroblast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroclasm
3 Submerge
4 Disrupt

From my experience disrupt seems the weakest card in the sb to me. What is your boarding plan with it? what do you take out?

[FredMaster]

It is supposed to be better than the BEB I think and you can also board it in against Combo - which is already a bye for you.
You can also bring them in against Eva Green and the like.

Personally I prefer Divert over both Blast and Disrupt. Since it isn't dead after the early game and does a lot more against Goyfsligh and Burn. Plus diverting a Hymn/Sinkhole/Thoughtseize is very sexy.

[lolosoon]

Ok, so I played Threshold twice those pasts week-ends at different local tournaments. Ugwb CB-thresh last Sunday (4th with 4-1-1) and Ugr Thresh yesterday (4th with 4-1).

@Mongoose :
In the UGwb one, I switch the 4xMongeese for 2xPredator and 2xGrunts.

That was boring.

Beeing unable to drop a threat before turn 3-4 (thanks to Daze and the 2cc of all my beasts) lead me to 40-50mn rounds most of the times. Even when I won them 2-0 !

Sure, this list is more controllish than the Ugr one, but beeing unable to put early pressure on your opponent is such a pain.

Next time I'll stick with the mighty goose for sure... Even in a control shell, early and hardly manageable pressure is neat.


@Stifle in UGr Lists :
Last night, I played a Ugr version Moon-effect empowered. It was only FNM so I wanted fun and interactions with my opponents.

No CB-Top, No Stifle-Waste shenannigans... Beatdown (Goyf&Goose + 2x Werebear) and Burn (4x Bolts, 3x Chain Lightning, 2x F&I) plus the 4x FoW, 4x Daze, 3x Snares countermeasures.

No tempo cards, but a way better reach and aggro matchup.

Still, crushing 'random' is fair, but I didn't want to lose to classic CB Thresh lists or Control decks. So I packed 2 Grips MD and 2x Magus/1x BloodMoon in the available slots, plus a random Rushing River in case of TombStalker or needed tempo boost.

The meta here is quite mature, and as soon as my opponents recognized UGr Threshold in front of them, they begun to fear Stifle and Wasteland. They slow play their fetches and fetch basics most of the times (thus making my Moons near useless if I couldn't drop them fast enough).

So, I finally gain quite the same tempo as the Stifle//Waste lists, but with a better reach and a better manabase (no colorless lands in my 17).

Making it short : not packing Stifle and Wastelands make my deck faster. Still, my deck received the benefits of those 2 cards without ever playing them.

If your mana denial//tempo plan consists of only 7 cards and if you can't abuse stifle like DreadStill does, I really do think the card is weaker than the hype around it.
People are living in fear of Waste & Stifle, but you don't need to play them to reap the rewards from those cards.

I have to agree that I was afraid of the combo matchup without Stifle nor CB to fight this particular archetype.
I only faced Belcher once but I won 2-0 thanks to FoW+SpellSnare on BW twice game1, and Ancient Grudge and FireSpout G2.
The thing is, countering key spells while rubbing face with goose and burn was too much for Belcher.

I agree ANT would be another story...

[Waikiki]

It is supposed to be better than the BEB I think and you can also board it in against Combo - which is already a bye for you.
You can also bring them in against Eva Green and the like.

Personally I prefer Divert over both Blast and Disrupt. Since it isn't dead after the early game and does a lot more against Goyfsligh and Burn. Plus diverting a Hymn/Sinkhole/Thoughtseize is very sexy.

Im more interested in seeing what you take out. (Tempo Thresh list)

[Atog]

I played today at local tournament in 24 person pool. I finished at 7th, losing to ANT(!) and aggro loam. I beated r-b aggro (red death?), mono-u skies and deadguy ale.

That ANT match was ridiculous, in first game i get counterbalance stay, and opponent played orim's chant on his turn, i try to counter it with daze, when opponent has 4 life and two city of brass untapped, he payed and take on burn. Then i finished him by lighting bolt :) Second game he bounced my balance and played tendrils@12. I was holding lighting bolt but no red source to play it :( He has 1 life.. Third game were something what i have never seen. ANT player played three duress so far turn two. Fair? Not. First hit my daze, second hit my force, and third take out my balance :( that left me with couple lands. Then i don't draw any relevant and he finished me off by Empty The warrens.

Aggro loam were too quite nice. I lost first game to unaswered Countryside Crusher (i didn't draw a single force in whole game, and counterbalance were on the table without top). Second game i sided in submerged and something else.. I draw three submerges and ALWAYS responded that fetch by playing that submerge on tarmogoyf. And every time he draw a fresh tarmo on top of deck. Nice draws, yeah?. Third game, he landed again countryside crusher and tarmogoyf, and i didn't draw my enought soon so they literally crushed me down. That PoP would save my ass in both games, IF i would just draw that and played it in sideboard. Loam player was 5-8 non-basics in play so that would be quite destructive :)

[Waikiki]

top 4ed today with Thrash,

Matchups

Goblins 2-0
Mono green something 1-2
Goblins 2-0
Survival 2-0
Survival elves 2-1
Eva green Draw into T8 (won fun games 2-1)
Top8
Belcher 2-0
Recurring rock 1-2

I cut disrupt from the sb and didn't miss it all day thnx to the meta.

[Muradin]

What did you add in those open slots and what does your SB look like now in general? Would you also cut Disrupt in general or was it just a metagame decission?

[sauce]

disrupt sucks, i cut it as well.
reb/beb > disrupt

[Joon]

Did you guys test Divert in the BEB Slot? Against pretty much all decks against BEB would be good (Sligh stuff) Divert shines, too. You might argue that BEB is stronger against Decks like Dragon Stompy and Imperial Painter, but if you do so you have also to look at Diverts other area of application: Against Suicide-style decks and Team America it's also very useful.

At least in my metagame I like Divert better than BEB or Hydroblast.

[undone]

Disrupt is just bad. Divert is ok but I would rather have BEB in a random metagame because goblins + dragon stompy + imperial painter + moon effects > Burn + Discard. Discard beats you handidly unless you deny its lands (Eva green) or land a solid threat early and keep pressure up.

If you are concerned about decks packing red BEB is better but divert is better if you expect decks playing hymn

What does every one think of packing 2/3 SB burn cards they would be awsome for reach against recurring decks and decks with huge men we cant get by. I dont know what playable burn we dont already run though the ones at the top of the list would be

Price of progress

A tough contender as it automaticaly wins some matchups. otherwise unwinnable such as lands, the difficult aggro loam matchup, and landstill. Yes you take damage here but your the agressive deck in each of these matchups so its rarely an issue.

Any one else see price of progress as a strong blow out card for this SB as a 2 of all it takes is 1 late game to automaticaly win the game against things like lands, landstill and aggro loam (seriously it turns 43 from a near auto loss to a near auto win..)

[sauce]

Disrupt is just bad. Divert is ok but I would rather have BEB in a random metagame because goblins + dragon stompy + imperial painter + moon effects > Burn + Discard. Discard beats you handidly unless you deny its lands (Eva green) or land a solid threat early and keep pressure up.

If you are concerned about decks packing red BEB is better but divert is better if you expect decks playing hymn

What does every one think of packing 2/3 SB burn cards they would be awsome for reach against recurring decks and decks with huge men we cant get by. I dont know what playable burn we dont already run though the ones at the top of the list would be

Price of progress

A tough contender as it automaticaly wins some matchups. otherwise unwinnable such as lands, the difficult aggro loam matchup, and landstill. Yes you take damage here but your the agressive deck in each of these matchups so its rarely an issue.

Any one else see price of progress as a strong blow out card for this SB as a 2 of all it takes is 1 late game to automaticaly win the game against things like lands, landstill and aggro loam (seriously it turns 43 from a near auto loss to a near auto win..)

i considered 1 spitebellows in the sb, but its not necessary.
i rather just wipeaway/rushing river the tombstalker/terrawhore/crusher.. also you can just bring in beb's vs loam and crush their hopes & dreams.

[Waikiki]

My sb was:

4 submerge
3 pyroclasm
4 pyroblast
3 krosan grip
1 life from the loam (random filler)

[MULocke]

i considered 1 spitebellows in the sb, but its not necessary.
i rather just wipeaway/rushing river the tombstalker/terrawhore/crusher.. also you can just bring in beb's vs loam and crush their hopes & dreams.

Submerge. It's awesome.

Well, I decided to give disrupt another try at my gpt, but I never got a matchup where I would want them partially because there was no combo, and partially because REB is just better. I'm gonna cut it for more relevant slots like threads and grips for next week.

Oh yeah, and I won the byes at that gpt :P.

[Shriekmaw]

From my experience disrupt seems the weakest card in the sb to me. What is your boarding plan with it? what do you take out?


The main application for disrupt is against combo/control decks. It's hard to give an exact breakdown on what I would take out depending on the type of deck your playing against. Even against threshold decks it varies so much depending if its a tempo version or one that plays counterbalance.

The general rule is to take cards out that will have the least benefit. The first cards I always look at are the 2 bounce spells and the 4 fire/ice.

The best application is against the combo decks out there where having an extra 4 daze effects are very good.

If you find something better to play in that spot then go ahead. I just found the card to be very helpful in the matchups I play against.

[sauce]

The main application for disrupt is against combo/control decks. It's hard to give an exact breakdown on what I would take out depending on the type of deck your playing against. Even against threshold decks it varies so much depending if its a tempo version or one that plays counterbalance.

The general rule is to take cards out that will have the least benefit. The first cards I always look at are the 2 bounce spells and the 4 fire/ice.

The best application is against the combo decks out there where having an extra 4 daze effects are very good.

If you find something better to play in that spot then go ahead. I just found the card to be very helpful in the matchups I play against.

red elemental blasts are always more relevant for 1 mana than disrupt...
against combo (ANT) its great too since their stupid mystical tutor/ponder/brainstorm all get denied via REB giving you enough time to get a goyf/goose in the red zone and force them to go off w/o a perfect hand or lose.

i dunno, submerge seems so situational, and it only helps against a few creatures which can be either denied from ever coming in via relic or shrunk to manageable sizes.

we got 2 main deck bounce spells already.
i rather run 3 relic + 1 ee in the board instead of 4 submerge.
this way im not assed out vs dredge/loam/landstill.