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Waikiki
03-02-2009, 02:20 PM
The main application for disrupt is against combo/control decks. It's hard to give an exact breakdown on what I would take out depending on the type of deck your playing against. Even against threshold decks it varies so much depending if its a tempo version or one that plays counterbalance.

The general rule is to take cards out that will have the least benefit. The first cards I always look at are the 2 bounce spells and the 4 fire/ice.

The best application is against the combo decks out there where having an extra 4 daze effects are very good.

If you find something better to play in that spot then go ahead. I just found the card to be very helpful in the matchups I play against.


I do found the power of disrupt and i'll always bring them in my binder. I was wondering on the board plan but it sounds you generally board the same way as I do. The meta I played in last sunday was combo light and almost no control I loved it.

MULocke
03-02-2009, 05:22 PM
The point of disrupt is not about just how good it is, or its "general utility." The question is about its "marginal utility", or how useful it is compared to everything else you could be using. Yes, it is nice to have in the combo matchups, but is it really better to devote four slots solely to the combo matchup when those slots could be better put to use elsewhere? Seeing as reb is still managable against combo, why do we cut off four slots of our already crammed sb? Their marginal utility is low because of the number of matchups they are useful in as well as how useful they are in those matchups. As for control, reb is much, much better against blue control and other control decks tend to play a lot of land to cast their expensive spells (making extra dazes weak). Low marginal utility means they get cut from my sb so my other matchups can get better.


Also, test submerge if you think it's weak. I did as well at first, but I tested it and now I understand. It might even be better against loam than relic.

sauce
03-02-2009, 06:16 PM
The point of disrupt is not about just how good it is, or its "general utility." The question is about its "marginal utility", or how useful it is compared to everything else you could be using. Yes, it is nice to have in the combo matchups, but is it really better to devote four slots solely to the combo matchup when those slots could be better put to use elsewhere? Seeing as reb is still managable against combo, why do we cut off four slots of our already crammed sb? Their marginal utility is low because of the number of matchups they are useful in as well as how useful they are in those matchups. As for control, reb is much, much better against blue control and other control decks tend to play a lot of land to cast their expensive spells (making extra dazes weak). Low marginal utility means they get cut from my sb so my other matchups can get better.


Also, test submerge if you think it's weak. I did as well at first, but I tested it and now I understand. It might even be better against loam than relic.

can you please post your sb? thanks

MULocke
03-02-2009, 08:24 PM
can you please post your sb? thanks

This is what I'm working with right now:

4 Submerge
2 Threads
2/2 Red blasts
3 grip
2 pyroclasm

Waikiki
03-03-2009, 05:43 AM
I never board in grave hate vs loam. I chose not to run grave hate at all. Submerge just won me all the aggro loam matches (GRb with and without chalice/confidant)

The plan is to slow them down just long enough to get inside of burn range or even death. (F/I and submerge really shine here)

Atog
03-03-2009, 07:00 AM
I never board in grave hate vs loam. I chose not to run grave hate at all. Submerge just won me all the aggro loam matches (GRb with and without chalice/confidant)

The plan is to slow them down just long enough to get inside of burn range or even death. (F/I and submerge really shine here)

I boarded against loam submerges, but i just have quite bad luck :( Everytime when i played submerge to tarmogoyf, response to fetching he draw it next turn :cry: Those PoPs would shine there, i will put them sideboard for next tournament, also against TES they would be nice (0 basics) :)

sauce
03-03-2009, 09:54 AM
I never board in grave hate vs loam. I chose not to run grave hate at all. Submerge just won me all the aggro loam matches (GRb with and without chalice/confidant)

The plan is to slow them down just long enough to get inside of burn range or even death. (F/I and submerge really shine here)

so you want to get crushed by landstill/ichorid too?
i dont understand why relic is not the shiznyte?
in the mirror you can make sure their mongoose never hits threshold which seems really good... and in other matchups you can prevent annoying recursion of wasteland and shrink terravore.

also, you will auto lose to ichorid w/o relic/crypt.
submerge is CUTE, but it wont help you vs ichorid.

Waikiki
03-03-2009, 11:04 AM
so you want to get crushed by landstill/ichorid too?
i dont understand why relic is not the shiznyte?
in the mirror you can make sure their mongoose never hits threshold which seems really good... and in other matchups you can prevent annoying recursion of wasteland and shrink terravore.

also, you will auto lose to ichorid w/o relic/crypt.
submerge is CUTE, but it wont help you vs ichorid.

Do Notice I play canadian thresh. That mean's Relic would suck big time for me. I Haven't ever felt the need for grave hate vs landstill. And I chose to give up the ichorid matchup because it's on the decline in my meta. And even then it's not an autoloose for me. Submerge helps me against way more decks then crypt/relic does.

undone
03-03-2009, 03:16 PM
The point of disrupt is not about just how good it is, or its "general utility." The question is about its "marginal utility", or how useful it is compared to everything else you could be using. Yes, it is nice to have in the combo matchups, but is it really better to devote four slots solely to the combo matchup when those slots could be better put to use elsewhere? Seeing as reb is still managable against combo, why do we cut off four slots of our already crammed sb? Their marginal utility is low because of the number of matchups they are useful in as well as how useful they are in those matchups. As for control, reb is much, much better against blue control and other control decks tend to play a lot of land to cast their expensive spells (making extra dazes weak). Low marginal utility means they get cut from my sb so my other matchups can get better.


Also, test submerge if you think it's weak. I did as well at first, but I tested it and now I understand. It might even be better against loam than relic.

(nod) I agree fully and like the above SB except I REALLY want 2 price of progress afterall 43 lands goes from a auto loss to an auto win in with 2 cards... Landstill gets much easier, and so does aggro loam, each tough matchups. Disrupt isnt good enough. I would cut the threads for them but thats just me as you have the mirror blasts which should take care of forces and CBs to let your goyfs get there.

Also in tempo what do you think of -1 fire ice +1 vendillion clique. The card is so good at staying alive with only one real compedator from matchups you dont win drasticaly (Stalker and in good matchups like goblins fanatic.) The tempo swing it creates is awsome and it recycles dazes in the late game. It also helps solve the rare problem of not finding a creature to win it.

MULocke
03-03-2009, 03:23 PM
(nod) I agree fully and like the above SB except I REALLY want 2 price of progress afterall 43 lands goes from a auto loss to an auto win in with 2 cards... Landstill gets much easier, and so does aggro loam, each tough matchups. Disrupt isnt good enough. I would cut the threads for them but thats just me as you have the mirror blasts which should take care of forces and CBs to let your goyfs get there.

Also in tempo what do you think of -1 fire ice +1 vendillion clique. The card is so good at staying alive with only one real compedator from matchups you dont win drasticaly (Stalker and in good matchups like goblins fanatic.) The tempo swing it creates is awsome and it recycles dazes in the late game. It also helps solve the rare problem of not finding a creature to win it.

The problem with clique is that it's too slow for this format. It's nice in standard and extended because all of the scary spells some down late, but here everything is so cheap that it's just to slow. Also, a three-power guy does nothing in the mirror where it's all about goyfs. It seems okay, but just too cute and not relevant enough, whereas fire/ice is really, really solid all the time.

Also, are you suggesting PoP for tempo, with no basics? I understand the point of flame rift and bringing it in when you're the beat down, but it seems just a little too cute to have to cut real sb cards for.

undone
03-03-2009, 03:42 PM
The problem with clique is that it's too slow for this format. It's nice in standard and extended because all of the scary spells some down late, but here everything is so cheap that it's just to slow. Also, a three-power guy does nothing in the mirror where it's all about goyfs. It seems okay, but just too cute and not relevant enough, whereas fire/ice is really, really solid all the time.

Fair enough, I just really want another creature in place of a fire ice. A dryad, or wear bear might work. I have had mixed results with clique, tipicaly he is awsome in the mirror as long as you dont LOSE the goyf /goose fight you just draw it out. He also dodges CB which has been nice on several occasions. Although I feel like your probably right a fire ice is most versatial a vendillion clique helps our bad matchups alot though.

In any case I still definately would not go without +2 price of progress it just seems so huge...

MULocke
03-03-2009, 04:01 PM
Fair enough, I just really want another creature in place of a fire ice. A dryad, or wear bear might work. I have had mixed results with clique, tipicaly he is awsome in the mirror as long as you dont LOSE the goyf /goose fight you just draw it out. He also dodges CB which has been nice on several occasions. Although I feel like your probably right a fire ice is most versatial a vendillion clique helps our bad matchups alot though.

In any case I still definately would not go without +2 price of progress it just seems so huge...

Now I wish I had the time to test that between now and Saturday morning... Clique and PoP seem good, but only testing will show. I'm gonna stick with the proven md for now, but I just might try to mise some wins out of my sb.

sauce
03-03-2009, 05:21 PM
giving up the dredge matchup may be ok if youre not going to GP Chicago and its not played in your meta.
i dont think you can just ignore one of the most broken decks in the format and hope not to get paired against it otherwise.

i never won vs dredge when i did not have gy hate besides fluke games.

undone
03-03-2009, 07:54 PM
giving up the dredge matchup may be ok if youre not going to GP Chicago and its not played in your meta.
i dont think you can just ignore one of the most broken decks in the format and hope not to get paired against it otherwise.

i never won vs dredge when i did not have gy hate besides fluke games.

The best way to win dredge is to win the roll hope they suck and try to cast spells against you and you get to counter the discard outlet.

Boarding in clasm helps but really if I were going to the GP I would dump the ichorid matchup in a heart beat. You will not see more than one if that heres why.

1) Its not popular it hasnt top 8ed all over the place and been popular for the pros who want to play force goyf top decks.

2) It will not be common due to LED being expensive legacy only card which is required in good builds.

3) It takes extream skill to not error the deck out on itself

4) The deck has a tendecy to self destruct and is only mediocer in the combo match.


Now I wish I had the time to test that between now and Saturday morning... Clique and PoP seem good, but only testing will show. I'm gonna stick with the proven md for now, but I just might try to mise some wins out of my sb.

Clique is good in many matchups the matchups its proven to be pretty to awsome good in are

1) The mirror
2) blue aggro control matchups NOT playing stalker
3) Combo (WAY better than fire ice, simply because it prevents double/triple chant)

It also serves a great perpose in the control matchup of preventing goose deaths (nom nom board sweeper)

I would say it shines most in the counter top MU when we both establish relativly equal creatures or you have a goyf and they dont have two. Simply because unlike many other cards in the deck they have between 4 and 8 cards that can beat it, and it splits the farming targets up, after all which one would you rather they send farming?

As a side note that I have found with PoP

PoP is infact the nuts. It is insane. However you have to play conciously around it yourself, dont crack your fetches past the 1 valc and 1 trop. If you do then its just our right nuts.

Enigma
03-03-2009, 07:59 PM
PoP gave me wins against Aggro-Loam and Landstill. Both games could have been lost without it, mostly the landstill's one. Double POP @ 10 dmg each is fucking lethal.

PM

undone
03-03-2009, 10:17 PM
PoP gave me wins against Aggro-Loam and Landstill. Both games could have been lost without it, mostly the landstill's one. Double POP @ 10 dmg each is fucking lethal.

PM

PoP just does so much your only boarding it in in matchups that have basicaly 0 clock so its more effective. I would consider a 3rd if the metagame was heavy on those but I would not recommend more than 2 in most metagames.

Price of progress wins games, landstill games litteraly finding a goyf to block man lands and falling aslee... I mean cantriping till you find a PoP.

No longer is goose the only way to beat these decks, you add cards that can solo the match alone.

freakish777
03-03-2009, 11:32 PM
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but Boom/Bust would give you 3rd turn 2 mana Stone Rain provided you have a Fetch or Waste out. And Armageddon against Landstill...

Adan
03-04-2009, 12:53 AM
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but Boom/Bust would give you 3rd turn 2 mana Stone Rain provided you have a Fetch or Waste out. And Armageddon against Landstill...

Carddisadvantage! And Bust is almost not supportable.
In the past we had various discussions about Epicenter, but Winter Orb was always be able to establigh itself as the control hoser. Alternatively Price of Progress or Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon in some metagames.

undone
03-04-2009, 07:47 AM
Carddisadvantage! And Bust is almost not supportable.
In the past we had various discussions about Epicenter, but Winter Orb was always be able to establigh itself as the control hoser. Alternatively Price of Progress or Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon in some metagames.

You wouldnt play crack the earth. Dont play boom bust.

Price of progess is just TOO good to not play. Moon effects are greedy IMO, when they work you auto win when they dont they did nothing. PoP on the other hand is a counter or lose/screw/8 you card.

I also am partial to vendillion clique as a 1 of over a fire/ice or spell snare depending on metagame (tipicaly fire ice)

Waikiki
03-04-2009, 08:47 AM
I've been wanting to test out the clique for some times right now but never had the chance. I will do so next tournament I play in.

johanessen
03-04-2009, 09:23 AM
I played the Caplan list changing the Wipe Away for the Vendilion and one wooded foothils for 1 island. Seemed good to me, liked the change

undone
03-04-2009, 10:52 AM
I played the Caplan list changing the Wipe Away for the Vendilion and one wooded foothils for 1 island. Seemed good to me, liked the change

Change rushing river first. Heck change fire ice (IMO the weakest card we already hose goblins with a 1G abyss) first. Wipe away is a bomb that is needed.

sauce
03-04-2009, 10:57 AM
You wouldnt play crack the earth. Dont play boom bust.

Price of progess is just TOO good to not play. Moon effects are greedy IMO, when they work you auto win when they dont they did nothing. PoP on the other hand is a counter or lose/screw/8 you card.

I also am partial to vendillion clique as a 1 of over a fire/ice or spell snare depending on metagame (tipicaly fire ice)

price of progress also does like 4-6 to you...

Smog
03-04-2009, 11:02 AM
Cast it when they're in the red zone and it doesn't matter how much it does to you, as long as you can live through it. PoP is amazing and (imo) the only reason burn is even halfway viable in this environment.

undone
03-04-2009, 12:35 PM
price of progress also does like 4-6 to you...

Landstill

43 land

Aggro loam

None have fast clocks and matchups like loam are decided before you play this card. The differance is that this card switches who is winning in the matchup with 1 card. Its like a 1 card backup plan that wins matchups otherwise thought bad.

Waikiki
03-04-2009, 12:53 PM
Change rushing river first. Heck change fire ice (IMO the weakest card we already hose goblins with a 1G abyss) first. Wipe away is a bomb that is needed.

IMO rushing rivers is stronger then wipe away and I absolutely love the multi use of fire/ice. Its very usefull in alot of matchups.

sauce
03-04-2009, 02:21 PM
current board:

3 submerge (ta/loam)
2 reb (merfolks/control)
2 pyroblast (merfolks/control)
2 hydroblast (sligh/loam/gobs)
1 explosives (elves/zoo/dreadnought)
2 pyroclasm (merfolk/elves/zoo/gobs)
3 krosan grip (dreadnought/staxx)

thoughts?

undone
03-04-2009, 04:04 PM
current board:

3 submerge (ta/loam)
2 reb (merfolks/control)
2 pyroblast (merfolks/control)
2 hydroblast (sligh/loam/gobs)
1 explosives (elves/zoo/dreadnought)
2 pyroclasm (merfolk/elves/zoo/gobs)
3 krosan grip (dreadnought/staxx)

thoughts?

Cut a grip and an EE for 2 PoP thats my only advice.

sauce
03-04-2009, 04:09 PM
Cut a grip and an EE for 2 PoP thats my only advice.

i dont feel comfortable w/o 3rd k-grip especially since dreadnought is a 2 turn clock.
there will be plenty of dreadstill present at the GP and i dont think I can afford to dismiss it.
i am sure there will be way more dreadstill than loam.
now that all kinda brings me back to playing relics instead of submerges.. those seem to be so relevant in loam/landstill to turn off the annoying life from the loam or at least to tone it down.

MULocke
03-04-2009, 04:20 PM
i dont feel comfortable w/o 3rd k-grip especially since dreadnought is a 2 turn clock.
there will be plenty of dreadstill present at the GP and i dont think I can afford to dismiss it.
i am sure there will be way more dreadstill than loam.
now that all kinda brings me back to playing relics instead of submerges.. those seem to be so relevant in loam/landstill to turn off the annoying life from the loam or at least to tone it down.

Against landstill, your most relevant cards are: (in order) Nimble Mongoose, Krosan Grip, REB. Goose gets there, and grip deals with all of the problem cards. You have stifles and counters for most removal spells, and grip gets crucible off the table as well as removing humility. Yes, relic deals with crucible recursion too. You already run grips, though, so you don't need them. REB obviously makes sure all your spells resolve.

Loam: I haven't tested this as much as I'd like, but Submerge is really awesome in response to a fetch, or just in general.

Team America: Submerge kicks relic's ass. I have tested, and this is my conclusion. You're free to agree to disagree.

sauce
03-04-2009, 04:24 PM
Against landstill, your most relevant cards are: (in order) Nimble Mongoose, Krosan Grip, REB. Goose gets there, and grip deals with all of the problem cards. You have stifles and counters for most removal spells, and grip gets crucible off the table as well as removing humility. Yes, relic deals with crucible recursion too. You already run grips, though, so you don't need them. REB obviously makes sure all your spells resolve.

Loam: I haven't tested this as much as I'd like, but Submerge is really awesome in response to a fetch, or just in general.

Team America: Submerge kicks relic's ass. I have tested, and this is my conclusion. You're free to agree to disagree.

crucible + wasteland lock = gg for us though unless we can just put fetchlands out and then they would force us to basically fetch a real land w/ it so it wont be more than 2 lands in play at any given time... and grip needs 3 mana to destroy the crucible.

i think crucible is a MUST counter vs any deck running it because no good things usually happen afterward.

undone
03-04-2009, 04:57 PM
i dont feel comfortable w/o 3rd k-grip especially since dreadnought is a 2 turn clock.
there will be plenty of dreadstill present at the GP and i dont think I can afford to dismiss it.
i am sure there will be way more dreadstill than loam.
now that all kinda brings me back to playing relics instead of submerges.. those seem to be so relevant in loam/landstill to turn off the annoying life from the loam or at least to tone it down.

UX aggro control will not show up in with force. (pun intended) At least in the first 4 rounds. You are unlikely to play against a blue deck in the first rounds your likely to play against goblins random scrubs and aggro. As the torny goes on your Blue/x matchup likely hood will increase.

So if you want to even reach the later rounds I advise prepairing for the aggro loam matchup over the dread still matchup. Dreadnaught will not be the biggest part of the metagame and you have tons of MD outs to dreadnaught and if your truely afrade of that deck you just make those 2 slots threads NOT extra grips. You dont need that many grips or even make those slots predators just not the 3rd grip. I have been unimpressed with 3 grip forever.

aTn
03-06-2009, 08:21 PM
Since Clemens-Der_imaginäre_Freund (and other people playing his list around the world) has had success with his UGW-Threshold list (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12807) with 4 Goyf, 4 Werebear, 3 Rox War-Monk and 2 Trygon Predator, I’ve been wondering if we could have an analogous creature base for UGR-Threshold.

My naive idea was to play the skeleton of Canadian Threshold without Wasteland, since the mana-base is prone to being screwed via Blood Moon or Back to Basics (and sometimes to non-basic hate in general: Wasteland + Stifle). This choice was obviously motivated by the presence of such nuisances in my meta.

Since I wanted to drop Wasteland, I also dropped Stifle. That being said, I didn’t want to play CB-Top in order to still play tempo-ish (of course to a lesser extent than Canadian Threshold).

Functioning by analogy with Clemens’ list, I had an old school idea I wanted to test in the current meta: Burning-Tree Shaman (which would “replace” War Monk).

This idea was mostly motivated by the following:

My meta is flooded with Merflok, which plays Vial and manlands; UW-Landstill, which plays manlands, fetchlands (and Elspeth) and UGW-Threshold, which plays Top and fetchlands.

Anyhow, I’ll stop rambling and give up with the list I came up with originally. This is by no means a finished list, but I think there’s potential. Maybe not… but I think it’s worth discussing and modifying.

Creatures (12)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Werebear
2 Burning-Tree Shaman
2 Trygon Predator

Control (11)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Spell Snare

Cantrip-Draw (10)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Predict

Burn (8)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire-Ice

Other (2)
2 Pithing Needle

Mana (17)
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
3 Pyroclasm
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Price of Progress
3 Submerge
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle

Pithing Needle is proposed in the maindeck for Vial, manlands, Elspeth, Top and other stuff I can’t think of now.

Waikiki
03-07-2009, 03:46 AM
where did goose go? I can't say enough how much goose rocks in a non heavy permanent build. I've finished so much games with goose where my opponent threw his hand down revealing stp stp and vindicate.

aTn
03-07-2009, 11:24 AM
I've been playing Goose in Threshold for over two years now and I agree with you - but I'm still up for testing lists without it (like Clemens' build of UGW-Threshold).

There have been countless discussions these past months about the relevance of Mongoose in the meta(s). Personally, I like Goose but I can also understand the frustration some players have with it when encountering certain situations or match-ups. The list is simply one that takes the point of view of the "non-goose" camp.

The point was not to discuss "to Goose or not to Goose" but rather to see if BTS is a good idea.

Enigma
03-08-2009, 11:18 PM
I pretty like your list Etienne. I don't see how Needle is that much needed in this build. I see the build as a Burn thresh where you try to race your opponent on life count. I would go +1 BTS and the remaining Daze and cut both needles, as BTS is doing about a similar thing in the deck philosophy.

Both Predicts are really good in there because of the large amount of instant spells we cast early.

On the SB, I would go for PoP, as it fully fits our role. Against Landstill, BTS, burns + PoP can really turn the MU in our advantage and I would say it does way better than any Needles, as we play the aggressor against them, not the control player.

PM

MULocke
03-09-2009, 12:27 AM
Well, I tested PoP a little bit with what time I had and didn't really like it, so threads ended up in that slot instead. It didn't really matter as the only sb cards I ever played were reb and pyroclasm. I'm still open to the possibility of running price, but it seems counter-intuitive with our strategy of stifle/waste. Also, decks like landstill will fetch basics against us because of wasteland, so it gets weakened. Also, it does literally nothing until the late game, and you really need every card to matter (or at least pitch to force) to get there.

Also, I just want to say congrats on te T8, Dave Caplan!

DrHealex
03-09-2009, 12:50 AM
I made day2 at GP Chicago, with the non tempo(i played countertop) UGr thesh deck (although i play Q-dryad over goose).
My sideboard was
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blasts
3 Hydroblast
3 Price of progress
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pyroclasm

The only card that was iffy was PoP, while the card did in fact win me a few games, and some games it WOULD have if I had access to my red mana. I found myself only sideboarding in 2. I think 2 is a good number for PoP. You can't simply just CUT it all together, then your matchups against things like aggroloam, 43lands, and 4color thresh, and other things that just take advantage of a surplus of duals simply aren't as strong.

I found 2 Krosan Grips to be just the right amount of number. I was always able to get to them when I needed to.

I really wanted to fit in graveyard hate because I was unable to beat ichorid in the 2 times I played it in the gp main, and in the finals I played of a gpt for it the day prior. Perhaps I should cut 1 pop and 1 pyroclasm for a couple relics/crypts.

Also, the 2 Engineered Explosives I played MD were AMAZING. I was soo tired of having like no solution to a resolved goyf. It also does some incredible things any many matchups, could possibly be my MVP... but we all know that award always goes to Islands.

The only problem I had was, I kept getting blown out by stifles and wastelands. Half of my match losses were from repeated heavy "LD" hands from my opponents in the form of double stifle, wasteland; or double wasteland, stifle. Except for the match where I loss to Kowal round 4, fresh off his 3byes, he knocked me off of my red mana, with double wastleand vindicate game 3 with a PoP safely at the top of my deck (had top in play), just couldn't find a land though :-/

Adan
03-09-2009, 01:21 AM
@aTn: FYI, this is the old tempo-oriented list which was played frequently here in Germany some years ago (well, 2k7) when Counterbalance-Thresh came up altogether with Cephalid Breakfast.

Burning Tree Shaman, Vedalken Shackles and Repeal were most of the time the card that simply circumvented Counterbalance. And Burning Tree Shaman brought the pain everytime the opponent was activating his SDT.

He disabled the Cephalid Breakfast combo and also did some extra damage against Landstill.

The deck itself was always rejected here with the argument that Fledgling Dragon is like infinite times better than BTS.

However, here's the list:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=10203

- Portent, + Ponder obv.

Other Top8 appearances made by Dennis' buddy:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=10644 German Legacy Champs Top8

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=10099 random Iserlohn event

And others:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=7813 Jan Sudmann = NQN I believe

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=5485 linux-II-

.
.
.

Whatever, you get the pattern.

Anarky87
03-09-2009, 02:11 AM
I played a version of UGr Threshold for the GP. Started off the day going 4-0, then had to play a friend, James Mink (T4 DS player) and then it kinda went down hill from there. I ended at 5-3 and dropped so we could all go eat. I think staying up till 5am the night before played a little into that. I played -1 F/I, +1 Sower of Temptation as the difference and that thing was good. Stole a lot of Goyfs, Dreadnaughts, Confidants. Just all around good. I would leave at least 2 PoP in the SB, because it led to my win against RG Aggro Loam in games 2 and 3 (Also Sower of Temptation stealing a 9/9 Terravore helped a lot, too).

I played 2 MD Krosan Grip, which were also completely hot all day long. Surprised just about everyone that got hit by it. We saw a lot of Dredge decks on Friday night, so we included 3 Crypt and 2 Relic, but I only ever boarded them in twice and only actually used it in the RG Loam match before PoP killed him. Deck was pretty fun, but I think I like Nassif's version better. Just has a lot of powerful stuff in it. Grats to Caplan for making T8.

Omega
03-09-2009, 02:19 AM
I think the right move was to do like Caplan and have 0 graveyard hate :)

Dredge is almost auto lose against Threshold anyway, why waste precious slots? Although Red has the advantage of burn and pyroclasm to send the zombie team back to the dead world.

MD Krosa Grip : I think it was really a good call. Im not sure if they can make it in a random meta, of course. But certainly, at an event like this one, CB are to be expected everywhere!

Maybe 3 bolt 4 ice and 1 sower would have been a better idea. Or just play 61 cards :]. Ice is so much better than bolt!

Robert

Smog
03-09-2009, 09:56 AM
What is the thought process for tempo thresh typically playing 6 fetches as opposed to 8?

Omega
03-09-2009, 10:22 AM
Losing less life? Or just to avoid stifle?

Robert

MULocke
03-09-2009, 11:18 AM
What is the thought process for tempo thresh typically playing 6 fetches as opposed to 8?

Then you're playing 8 fetches with only 6 lands to find. Also, stifle and life loss I suppose. They're just not necessary.

Ironstickman
03-09-2009, 11:19 AM
I'd say:

a) Avoid stifle
b) Preventing undesired suffling effects, (which is not as marginal as one might think) e.g after a ponder

MULocke
03-09-2009, 11:35 AM
I'd say:

a) Avoid stifle
b) Preventing undesired suffling effects, (which is not as marginal as one might think) e.g after a ponder

Undesired shuffle effects can be avoided by cracking the fetch before pondering, etc. The problem is that you need to always have a land available to fetch, but if you have 8 fetches with only 6 lands that actually make mana, this is a problem.

Aleksandr
03-09-2009, 01:38 PM
I want to bring two cards to discussion:

Cerebral Vortex (http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/GPT/en-us/Card96907.jpg)

Electrolyze (http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/GPT/en-us/Card96829.jpg)

Ok, the first one is just a funny card, I would really like to play it in response to the Ritual, Ritual, Ad Nauseam (10). But that is all about it.

But what do you think of the latter? I know that it is a bit clunky, but I like how it dodges CB, has the right color for FoW and is capable of killing two weenies (although this is maybe a moot point, as there are not many x/1 creatures worthy a bolt - Confidant, Lackey... ahem - Ichorid?) With 4/4/? split of Bolt/Fire_Ice/Electro, we have great ammount of burn to finish the game quickly once the board stalls...

EDIT: Btw, I thought of adding BTS to some deck, too. I have them for two years now and played them.. twice? I remembered them yesterday, when I lost some games on MWS to another similarly vexing card - Kederekt Parasite.

Deirex
03-09-2009, 01:48 PM
Ad Nauseam doesn't draw card so Cerebral Vortex wouldn´t be any use there anyway.

Omega
03-09-2009, 03:55 PM
The fact that electrolyte doesn't tap make it absolutely inferior to Fire/Ice.
When using Fire, Electrolyte can be somehow compared to it. But due to the fact that Ice is extremely relevant in certain MU, and that Electrolyte can't do Ice, I think we can conclude that Fire/Ice is simply superior to Electrolyte. Both manacost wise, but also because of the tap-permanent ability.

Robert

aTn
03-09-2009, 04:48 PM
I don't see how Needle is that much needed in this build. I see the build as a Burn thresh where you try to race your opponent on life count.

I didn't test much the list I proposed, but I expect the deck to possibly have problems vs CB-Top (obviously)... so I think Needle on Top is a great play for this deck (in a CB-Top Threshold infested meta). That is why I suggested Needle in the MD.

aTn
03-09-2009, 04:50 PM
@aTn: FYI, this is the old tempo-oriented list which was played frequently here in Germany some years ago (well, 2k7) when Counterbalance-Thresh came up altogether with Cephalid Breakfast.

Burning Tree Shaman, Vedalken Shackles and Repeal were most of the time the card that simply circumvented Counterbalance. And Burning Tree Shaman brought the pain everytime the opponent was activating his SDT.

He disabled the Cephalid Breakfast combo and also did some extra damage against Landstill.

The deck itself was always rejected here with the argument that Fledgling Dragon is like infinite times better than BTS.

However, here's the list:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=10203

- Portent, + Ponder obv.

Other Top8 appearances made by Dennis' buddy:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=10644 German Legacy Champs Top8

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=10099 random Iserlohn event

And others:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=7813 Jan Sudmann = NQN I believe

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=5485 linux-II-

.
.
.

Whatever, you get the pattern.

Thanks Adan, I remember you guys talking about these lists a while back. Thanks for refreshing my memory.

Enigma
03-09-2009, 09:26 PM
A day after GP, I have to say I'm pretty impressed by Sower of Temptation. As your last deck try to be the UGR version of DIF's UGW aggro thresh list, I would see Sower replacing his Mystic Enforcer and BTS replacing RWM.

Here's the list I'm currently testing:


// Lands
1 Forest
2 Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Flooded Strand
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Volcanic Island
2 Polluted Delta
1 Mountain

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
3 Burning-Tree Shaman
4 Werebear
2 Sower of Temptation

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
4 Fire/Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Price of Progress
SB: 3 Slot for something against Landstill or Combo. I thought about Pyrostatic Pillar and Sulfuric Vortex, what you guys think about it? Or +1 PoP, +2 REB/BEB.

It's pretty aggressive and I feel like it could go somewhere. Need more testing.

PM

aTn
03-09-2009, 10:03 PM
Nice list ! My only concern, not having tested it yet, is having only 17 lands (+4 Werebear) with 5 three-drops and 2 four-drops.

-1 Something (Werebear ?) + 1 land maybe ?

Enigma
03-09-2009, 10:41 PM
I don't know. In DIF's list I'm currently playing since two weeks, I'm fully ok with 17 and I have 7 3cc drops and 1 4cc + Top, which is more mana intense than anything else in the list mentionned a post before.

Adan
03-10-2009, 02:59 AM
Ugh, if you run Sower of Temptation, you need a way to defent him consequently, i.e. via Counterbalance. Otherwise he's pretty crappy.

I'd say:

- Burning Tree Shaman
- Spell Snares

+ 4 Counterbalance
+ 3 Sensei's Divining Top

That would be massive profit I guess.

spirit of the wretch
03-10-2009, 07:18 AM
Ugh, if you run Sower of Temptation, you need a way to defent him consequently, i.e. via Counterbalance. Otherwise he's pretty crappy.

I'd say:

- Burning Tree Shaman
- Spell Snares

+ 4 Counterbalance
+ 3 Sensei's Divining Top

That would be massive profit I guess.

QFT. Sower is only good if you can keep it alive. Without CB I don't think you can reliably do that.
I also don't understand why you want to port Clemens list to a Tempo Thresh shell? Don't get me wrong, his list is great and has proven itself many times, but it is fundamentally based on CB. If you take that card away you weaken the deck absurdly! This is a slower, more controlling build and CB is its main control element.
True Story!

sauce
03-10-2009, 12:29 PM
i am thinking maybe we can reduce the fire/ice to 2 and play 2 trygons in the main (referring to goobafish's list) or remove the rushing river/wipeaway in favor of 2 trygons main. either way we need a good way to fight counterbalance main deck.
spell snares are great but they are not always available, since goyf is a beating and so is bob.

MULocke
03-11-2009, 02:18 PM
i am thinking maybe we can reduce the fire/ice to 2 and play 2 trygons in the main (referring to goobafish's list) or remove the rushing river/wipeaway in favor of 2 trygons main. either way we need a good way to fight counterbalance main deck.
spell snares are great but they are not always available, since goyf is a beating and so is bob.

I know Ben Wienburg played a Vendilion Clique main over fire/ice #4 and loved it all day. It apparently got him some wins against decks with maindeck relics like merfolk and a weird goblins build. We were thinking about cutting the rushing river for a second, but I could easily see those becoming trygons in a meta infested with cb/top. Just don't get them sowered.

Also, would it be worth it to post a gp report if I went 6-3 with byes? I guess I could post the trial report as well if people want.

Enigma
03-11-2009, 02:49 PM
Yep, sure! Go ahead.

PM

Anarky87
03-11-2009, 07:44 PM
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
2 Sower of Temptation

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fire/Ice

3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Island
1 Forest
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island

What I've since gone to and have been tinkering around with.

rsaunder
03-11-2009, 08:13 PM
I'd make fire//ice magma jet in that list. The tapping wont be nearly as useful without the tempo shell and scry is good with counterbalance.

undone
03-11-2009, 10:34 PM
I know Ben Wienburg played a Vendilion Clique main over fire/ice #4 and loved it all day. It apparently got him some wins against decks with maindeck relics like merfolk and a weird goblins build. We were thinking about cutting the rushing river for a second, but I could easily see those becoming trygons in a meta infested with cb/top. Just don't get them sowered.

Also, would it be worth it to post a gp report if I went 6-3 with byes? I guess I could post the trial report as well if people want.

Wienburg took my tempo deck and said he hated 4 fire ice and wanted to cut it so I told him the best 60th card is a threat that can fight past CB. Clique was the next best card with predator as the best card for a Counter top infested metagame. Or just play landstill not tempo. Wienburg got 11th I believe which is pretty impressive. From what I have seen it seems like tempo thresh was the best deck playing goose, and counter balance decks played better men (Mostly confidant and sower)

Also provided bob is mid/late game threat only with top out. In this matchup the biggest card is top, if you keep top off the board your life is 100X better because with a randoming bob on that curve if they are at 7 or less they are dead most likely.

After this T8 I would reccommend a new board because I didnt realize CT and shackles would be in the same deck and that they would be so previlant.

4 Annul (grip doesnt stop the top from topping 3+ times)
4 Submerge
2 trygon predators
3/4 reb
1/2 open

Does sower or shackles deserve a slot in the board for the mirror? In the mirror you dont need little increases you need breakers.

Atog
03-13-2009, 12:14 PM
I'm going to play ugr-thresh tomorrow at tournament, but im still balancing between canadian thresh and counter/top version. Which would be better choice for unknown meta?

rancOr_
03-13-2009, 01:20 PM
In my opinion(I've played both), I think the version without cb/top is more suited in the ugr play style. U will loose alot of tempo if you go for the CB/top route. Although CB can randomly win games, I still prefer to play without em(so with spell snare) and have a faster clock. I've been testing with 2-3 PoP SB and that seems to be working nice aswell.

undone
03-13-2009, 01:27 PM
I'm going to play ugr-thresh tomorrow at tournament, but im still balancing between canadian thresh and counter/top version. Which would be better choice for unknown meta?

Canadian is better for unknown. And CT is better for a UX metagame. If you play CT you should almost definately play the deck that got first or second in the recent GP.

Personaly I find counter top to be too skill/time intensive for a long torny it will wear you out and break you down or you will misplay with it costing you a few games in the torny and maby even the top8. Top is mentaly taxing and I dont see that as being good for a torny.

Shriekmaw
03-13-2009, 01:31 PM
I'm going to play ugr-thresh tomorrow at tournament, but im still balancing between canadian thresh and counter/top version. Which would be better choice for unknown meta?


Canadian Threshold would be the better choice. Thats why it did really well at the GP, because you never know what to expect. The deck does great against almost anything with not too many bad matchups to worry about.

The ability to burn your opponent out is very underestimated by a lot of players, great game finisher.

Atog
03-13-2009, 01:59 PM
In my opinion(I've played both), I think the version without cb/top is more suited in the ugr play style. U will loose alot of tempo if you go for the CB/top route. Although CB can randomly win games, I still prefer to play without em(so with spell snare) and have a faster clock. I've been testing with 2-3 PoP SB and that seems to be working nice aswell.

In canadian thresh, won't those PoPs hurt you too much? Of course when they are leathal it won't matter anyway. Are you playing Caplan's list? And have you been problems with b2b/blood moon/magus of the moon? Those rebs/pyroblast should handle them but without single island that could be rough.



Canadian Threshold would be the better choice. Thats why it did really well at the GP, because you never know what to expect. The deck does great against almost anything with not too many bad matchups to worry about.

The ability to burn your opponent out is very underestimated by a lot of players, great game finisher.


What place did you finished? And what decks against you win and lost? :)

undone
03-13-2009, 02:12 PM
In canadian thresh, won't those PoPs hurt you too much? Of course when they are leathal it won't matter anyway. Are you playing Caplan's list? And have you been problems with b2b/blood moon/magus of the moon? Those rebs/pyroblast should handle them but without single island that could be rough.

The price of your progress

2 - 6 life

The price of their progress

8 - 20 life

Its a fair trade in the worst circumstances, in good ones its a LOL FAIL.


What place did you finished? And what decks against you win and lost? :)

I believe canadaian threshold had only 2 decks T8 at a higher percentage than they did and one was, not surprizing. WGB rock and Dragon stompy. Stompy is randomly amazing and randomly bad, that caught up to it in the T8, the WGB decks cant always beat counter top (which caught up to them, as a 2/3 is very good and so is sowering a stalker) and the tempo thresh deck with inevitably play against some one who draws 6 lands and a top.

It takes a fair amount of luck and skill to T8, afterall if it was JUST skill and metagaming one or two people would win every major magic event in existance. However this isnt the case we it is one of many people that frequently win not just 1. Luck is a factor, and so is deck choice. In the end I feel that tempo thresh has a VERY good game against the CT decks that T8ed and the reason it lost is because the tempo player got stuck with bad hands.

Enigma
03-24-2009, 12:29 PM
When I play canadian thresh, my opponents usually fetchs for basic lands, which makes PoP not really good in this SB. I only use it on CB Top shell, where I have 3-4 basic lands and no wasteland, to be sure they don't mind going for non-basics, and then take 10 dmg from a PoP.

P-M

Jujuhawk
03-29-2009, 06:29 PM
I can't figure out my deck for legacy, and since it's pretty popular here I kind of want to do so, so I have this deck a shot.

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
1 Vendilion Clique


4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Fire/Ice

3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Footills
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Mountain

SB:

4 Pyroclasm
2 REB
2 BEB
4 Submerge
1 KGrip
2 Mind Harness

I didn't see a lot of combo before the tournament, but rather a bunch of random decks with creatures, thus the 4 clasms.

Round 1: Some guy with UBWG CB/top thresh pile.

Game 1: I get an early goose, a VClique, and quickly get him down with dudes and bolts to fill my yard for goose fodder.

Game 2: This game is VERY good, and quite long.

I play a turn 1 goose, and he plays top. We go back and forth playing lands, and he eventually plays counterbalance. I obviously have the 1 KGrip, and he bins the CB.

It eventually gets to the point where I have a goyf and 2 geese, he has a goyf, a top, and shackles. We both have few cards in hand, and I'm sandbagging submerges to get maximum value. I submerge a goyf to get in with my creatures, and he reads it, tanks for a while, and eventually forces it. I think of using my 2nd submerge, but I have a sick read that he will fetch end of turn to shuffle away his top 3. He does exactly that, I submerge his goyf in response, and he wide-eyes's me. "wow.. nice trick."

Yeah, I concur, since you just read the card a minute ago and tanked for a few minutes.

The next turn he plays a bob, and I swing in. I play a 2nd main goyf as he needs 2 more lands to get shackles online, holding a daze. He thinks, and eventually tops, and draws with it, and hardcasts FOW, leaving only a fetch open. I obviously daze it and he sighs as he has to crack his fetch and shuffle away top which was essentially keeping him in the game.

We go back an forth, trade goyfs, and eventually he has a shackles, my goyf, and I have 2 geese with no cards in hand. He dogs deed off the top which is basically the best card he can draw at that point. He taps his land, thinks, untaps it, and passes. I alert him of my upkeep, and he passes to my draw step. I obviously quickly draw my card to prevent takebacks, praying for a stifle the whole time. Obviously I do draw stifle, I move to attacks, and stifle his deed. He sighs again as he completely punted. He also makes a little shot about how lucky my topdeck is, which is ironic since he could have just mainphased the deed and I would have lost. I'm not braindead, I'm not going to walk into your on-board wrath of god.

Next turn I topdeck submerge and get him for exactsies.

Such justice.

Round 2: Jonathon with elves

He's totally terrible and plays the deck in every format, and my deck is basically insane against him with MD F/I, Bolt, and more in the board.

Game 1: I mull to 5 seeing no lands in my first 2 hands, and settle with some dorks, a waste, a trop, and a fire/ice. I obviously don't draw a red the entire game and he combos with 3 cards in hand and 2 dudes out.

Game 2: I mull to 6 and keep this:

Trop
Island
Goose
Pyroclasm
Fire/Ice
Goyf

Basically if I draw a red I can't lose.

Luckily for him, my deck coughs up no brainstorms, ponders, or red. He gets me to 1 on an attack, and I draw foothills the following turn.

No justice, etc.

Round 3: Justin with UWG Thresh

Game 1: He blinds with counterbalance 3 turns in a row, and I lose to goyfs.

Game 2: We go back and forth, I submerge some dudes away in response to fetches, which he basically walked into. The first one was fine as he didn't see it coming, but the 2nd fetch was for no reason. He obviously wins though as he has a lot of removal and control magic effects, and I don't draw any brainstorms which would've allowed me to make my flood not totally awful.


Justin was pretty lucky, which was frustrating, and I got totally fucked against elves. I'm pretty sure I was running the best card in the tournament (submerge) and everyone would walk into it constantly, but I got totally grifted.

The basics were pretty unnecessary, but it was nice to have them as I'm scared shitless of wastelands, as normally this runs no basics at all. I can't really make judgements about the deck, as it was only 3 rounds and I got totally screwed. Sower should probably be > mind harness, but whatever.

As you can tell by my games I never really had the good draws this deck should get. I never got a stifle/waste win against the thresh deck round 3, and I was always drawing my mana denial late with no brainstorms to shuffle them away.

If I were to play tomorrow I would play the exact 60, maybe cutting 1 f/i for a submerge.

I would play this board

2 REB
2 BEB
1 KGrip
2 Sower (or 3 if I made the MD change)
4 Submerge (3 if I make the MD change)
4 Pyroclasm (possibly a 2/2 split with firespout [better against decks with tribal lords])

undone
04-03-2009, 09:08 AM
Trop
Island
Goose
Pyroclasm
Fire/Ice
Goyf

Basically if I draw a red I can't lose.

You would have won if you had the basic land configuration, how many games did you win via basics, how many did you lose? Simply put basics suck after first turn unless your playing against a deck with blood moon.

My personal SB would be

2 ReB
2 Pyroblast
4 Submerge
3 Clasm
2 Krosan grip
2 Threads of disloyalty

My only main deck alterations from the standard 60 would be -1 RR -1 wipe away +1 vendillion clique and +1 other creature, options would include predator, sower, and vendillion clique.

EDIT: Or maby burning tree shaman needs to make a come back, yah hes smaller than goyf but considering that he basicaly cripples top and seriously hates on fetch lands he seems really good as he prevents digging for answers or at least makes you pay for it, it also helps the survival match, the goblins match (an ass of 4 is so big and vial +port) it also helps our abismal 43 lands matchup as they cant beat that card aside from like 4 cards in thier deck.

Jujuhawk
04-03-2009, 10:27 AM
I cut basics, except the island. With the ammount of aggro loam in my meta, I feel it's necessary to have the island just as an insurance against wastelock, because if they waste lock I'm pretty sure I can't win, but if I can get an early goose and stifle/waste to buy myself time (if they have a mox diamond start it's pretty hard). So in that case, I still would have lost, but you're correct, my first hand that game had 2 basics, and if the forest was just a trop/fetch like it is now I probably would have won.

MULocke
04-03-2009, 11:00 AM
I cut basics, except the island. With the ammount of aggro loam in my meta, I feel it's necessary to have the island just as an insurance against wastelock, because if they waste lock I'm pretty sure I can't win, but if I can get an early goose and stifle/waste to buy myself time (if they have a mox diamond start it's pretty hard). So in that case, I still would have lost, but you're correct, my first hand that game had 2 basics, and if the forest was just a trop/fetch like it is now I probably would have won.

Question (Read: not just sarcastic comment): If you're wastelocked, but you still do have that one basic island, how are you better off? I understand you can play cantrips, but aren't you still basically screwed?

sauce
04-03-2009, 11:10 AM
he could align his top deck w/ cantrip to play a tropical/fetch tropical and play a goyf at least... or fetch volcanic and lightning bolt etc..

but yes, wasteland lock crushes 99% of thresh decks

undone
04-03-2009, 01:31 PM
he could align his top deck w/ cantrip to play a tropical/fetch tropical and play a goyf at least... or fetch volcanic and lightning bolt etc..

but yes, wasteland lock crushes 99% of thresh decks

If I had to pick a basic to play it would be a moutain, because if you got wastelocked before they are in burn range you just lose. But if I was really scared I would go +2 needle in the board -> beat fail phase.


if they have a mox diamond start it's pretty hard

It may be correct to force/daze diamond if you can.

Adan
04-03-2009, 02:34 PM
but yes, wasteland lock crushes 99% of thresh decks

Outs:

2 Island, 1 Forest. Maybe 3 Pithing Needle somewhere in the 75 to play on Wasteland.

Just. Not. True.

It may be true for canadian Thresh, but canadian Thresh can generate a boardposition - or a speedadvantage - that will make Wastelands actually bad plays as the Loamplayer should focus on different things. Not to mention that Spell Snare can still do well in such situations and Stifle can buy nearly 1 Turn.

Jujuhawk
04-04-2009, 12:43 AM
If I had to pick a basic to play it would be a moutain, because if you got wastelocked before they are in burn range you just lose. But if I was really scared I would go +2 needle in the board -> beat fail phase.



It may be correct to force/daze diamond if you can.

If I get to daze a diamond they deserve to lose anyway. Forcing it is awkward as I'd much rather force a real card like wish, or a creature. I think my gameplan is to get a creature, and just bolt/counter their creatures and hope they don't get their engine online fast enough to recover.

Adan
04-04-2009, 06:15 AM
If I get to daze a diamond they deserve to lose anyway. Forcing it is awkward as I'd much rather force a real card like wish, or a creature. I think my gameplan is to get a creature, and just bolt/counter their creatures and hope they don't get their engine online fast enough to recover.

When you play TempoThresh, this is the right thing to do. At the same time, you utilize your Wastelands, Stifles and Spell Snares to generate speedadvantage and make Daze more powerful. Even if they can resolve a creature in such a situation, you can still bounce or tap it (via 4 Fire//Ice and the 2 bounce, in case of Crusher or Goyf sometimes even Bolt it) to force them into a defensive situation where they just can't efford to attack you anyway as long as the Vore is not 18/18.

Postboard their creatures become even more irrelevant through the 4 Submerge you can bring in, as well as Engineered Explosives (which is useful against Chalice as well).

Phthisisity
04-04-2009, 04:17 PM
last week i ran a version of moon thresh at my local weekly legacy shin-dig and went 5-0.in a 20 person tourney i feel like part of why i won was the surprise factor of magus so i don't know if i will have continued success.

this is what my list looked like:

4x goose
4x goyf
4x magus of the moon
2x vendilion clique
1x sower
1x trygon preditor

4x ponder
4x brainstorm
4x force of will
4x daze
3x spellsnare
4x ligntning bolt
4x fire// ice

2x flooded strand
2x polluted delta
3x wooded foothills
3x volcanic island
3x tropical island
2x island
2x forest

sb:
3x pyroclasm
3x krosan grip
1x gaea's blessing (metagame choice, won me the last round against epic painter)
1x trygon predator
3x hydroblast
2x divert
2x mind harness


although i had alot of success with the deck (only lost one game all night)
i feel as though i may cut magus this week in favor of spellstutter sprite, as he is a house even if all he counters is one drops. also i think i may switch my numbers on daze and spell snare because without stifle or wasteland i feel that daze is not as strong as it could be.

if i do run the sprite do you think it would hurt to try and find room for 2-3 mutavaults in the deck?

thanx in advance -phthisisity

leander?
04-04-2009, 04:22 PM
What were your matchups?

Jujuhawk
04-05-2009, 12:07 AM
Pretty sure you should be playing 4 stifles over 4 creatures. Stifling their fetches allows magus to be more effective, and he gets less effective as people find out about him and fetch basics.

Phthisisity
04-05-2009, 11:46 AM
@ leander?
rd1: UB faeries, fairly aggro extended port
rd2: Combo Elves! playing white for geddon
rd3: nassif's counter top list from the GP
rd4: Eva Green
rd5: UBG epic painter

rd 3 was the only time i lost a game and it was to my teammate, the ny state champ

@ jujuhawk
i agree with you on the inclusion of stifle in to the mix, however i have had alot more success as of late by playing more men in my lists so i may try and find room elsewhere.

undone
04-10-2009, 10:49 AM
What are the collective thoughts on removing the rushing river and wipe away from canadian thresh in exchange for 2 guys that fly (Be it vendillion clique, sower, or trygon predator)

rancOr_
04-10-2009, 12:29 PM
I've been playing +1 land +1 Vendilion Clique in those spots.
I must say the Vendilion Clique works out very nice. Its a solid beater with evasion that can put away a nasty card from ur oppo or cycle a card.
I feel like Sower is better in a CB/top shell as u can defend it then.
Trygon Predator is a nice include aswell,but in my testing a bit too slow so I prefer the Clique.

undone
04-10-2009, 12:58 PM
My current build has -1 RR for +1 clique I found clique to fit the decks style aside from the whole "3 CC sucks" thing. Is clique the best creature to run there? Wipe away still seems great in it at least to me, it allows for the counterbalance bounce to burn you out at EOT.

I really wish that we had a good out to shackles and such but its becoming more and more clear to me + 4 annul in the board is mandatory for the "nassif control" match and vs any deck where it has 8 or more targets it is awsome.

This allows us more first turn outs to top and counter balance as well as shackles and deed and EE. It seems grip is just worse than annul because its too late to do it (vs alot of cards) while annul is nuts.

Waikiki
04-10-2009, 05:10 PM
I found RR better then wipe away.

Also shackless never bothered me since u can easily delay the number if islands.

And goose doesn't give a shit.

Xero_2285
04-11-2009, 06:40 PM
What are the collective thoughts on removing the rushing river and wipe away from canadian thresh in exchange for 2 guys that fly (Be it vendillion clique, sower, or trygon predator)

I've done this exactly (2 Trygon). And I've got to say I miss RR sometimes, but also sometimes Trygon can destroy whatever I wanted to bounce anyway so... it's still up in the air for me.

undone
04-16-2009, 08:06 AM
Nassif control has become somewhat popular in my area, I havent figured out how to play against it effectivly, my gut instinct is to force only tarmogoyfs if I have a goose on the board and snare only Counter balances as bob hurts them and can be bolted. It feels like the landstill matchup in that goose is the MVP and goyf is not something you want to try and win with (control magics suck)

The waste stifle plan seems mediocer here as they have 2 basics and almost always start with one in play if they are on the play, and they can have just the psudo nuts hand of 4-5 lands.

Whats every one elses view on this, it feels even, it just seems like we should be able to do better than even on this match.

rancOr_
04-16-2009, 01:34 PM
I've played against it in tournament and also tested the MU.
Nimble Mongoose is the way to go. If you keep your own Goyfs in hand,they have quite alot of dead cards: Sower,shackles,stp,confi.Ur own stifles/waste are still effective as they need more then 2 lands to get online.
The key to this matchup is to counter the CB/goyf. Burn can take care of the other creatures if necessary. T1 mongoose and spell snare are awesome here.
Its still not an easy MU,but I feel like it's 55vs.45% in ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh's favor.

sauce
04-16-2009, 02:25 PM
preboard, the mongoose is a win condition if you can keep their goyfs off the board. post board, i think stifle shines more due to explosives..

if they resolve cb before u land mongoose, u are probably going to lose.

undone
04-16-2009, 05:14 PM
I didnt find CB to be the card that wrecks you, it is more like top goyf IMO.

sauce
04-16-2009, 07:59 PM
I didnt find CB to be the card that wrecks you, it is more like top goyf IMO.

ive played maybe 100 matches of ugr tempo thresh (canadian) vs cbtop thresh and whenever a cb resolved, i lost probably 85% of the games.

most of the spells being @ 1 and 2 cc in the deck, cbtop shuts down 50% of them blind just w/ top alone and if they float a 2 drop on top, youre dead to wipeaway/rushing river outs only to try and resolve a spell.

they also swords your goyfs and you pretty much cannot fight swords other than w/ force of will.
its a really bad matchup w/o 4 REB and maybe like 2 trygon 2 k-grip post board.
if you can stop (Spell snare) the cb and somehow land an early goyf, you may be able to win if you can keep them off their threats..

if they land a top they eventually out-card-quality you though and win.
really, the way to win is to disrupt their lands early w/ waste/stifle and just keep pinging them w/ a mongoose.
if you can out-tempo them first 5 turns, you will probably win, thats how i won the games i did win.

goobafish
04-19-2009, 04:28 PM
Top is the problem card in the CB.dec matchup, not necessarily counterbalance. You really want to counter their Tops. I am not a fan of swapping the bounce spells for Trygon Predators and especially not Sowers because of their high mana costs and the fact that they force you to tap out. I have yet to try Cliques, but I am perfectly happy with the bounce spells as it stands, and see no reason to play around with it yet.

undone
04-20-2009, 08:29 AM
On cliques: Clique is a bolt and a thoughtseize effect, it gives you an extra out to the lands matchup, is great in the, well every matchup. It is only equal to/worse the wipe away when they land counter/top. The thing is clique gets there so fast.

Henrik
04-20-2009, 09:43 AM
I would like some key guidelines on how to sideboard with Goobafish's sideboard, from Goobafish especially, or anyone else using the same sideboard and have managed to reach top 8s with it.

For reference:
4 REBs/pyroblast
4 submerge
4 disrupt
1 EE
1 krosan grip
1 pyroclasm

I still use pithing needle to stop cards such as survival and pernicious deed, and I also don't find 1 EE and 1 pyroclasm enough to fight the tribal/wheenie matchup. I would like to see examples of +/- lists on how to sideboard against as many matchups as possible, preferably the decks to beat, using the above sideboard. Thank you all!

Joon
04-20-2009, 11:06 AM
Uhm...I personally like Clique in combination with the Bounce spells? I cut a F/I for one Vendellion-thing and I am searching currently space for Clique number two. It's just a good card in this deck and more than eight beaters is also nice to have, especially when they have evasion.

sauce
04-20-2009, 11:33 AM
Top is the problem card in the CB.dec matchup, not necessarily counterbalance. You really want to counter their Tops. I am not a fan of swapping the bounce spells for Trygon Predators and especially not Sowers because of their high mana costs and the fact that they force you to tap out. I have yet to try Cliques, but I am perfectly happy with the bounce spells as it stands, and see no reason to play around with it yet.

i agree, but even w/o top, cb does its job via brainstorm(4)/ponder (4) setups most of the time.
plus their swords just crushes the goyf sans fow (which usually goes for the top unless they get 1st turn dazed like newbs)

undone
04-20-2009, 11:34 AM
Uhm...I personally like Clique in combination with the Bounce spells? I cut a F/I for one Vendellion-thing and I am searching currently space for Clique number two. It's just a good card in this deck and more than eight beaters is also nice to have, especially when they have evasion.

I am currently at 2 with -1 Fire ice and -1 RR. 10 men is a good number because clique hits the same turn goose does and is a decent target for FOW pitching. Essentialy I have reached the point where I have never, save against dragon stompy, wanted RR over clique and even than it was a close call as I could RR away a 3sphear and a moon in responce or cast clique when hes at 10. Clique is just very good as he fits the tempo and makes sure he still has more than 1 effect, he is also removal "resistant" so to speak because he deals with 1 removal that is in hand.


Henrik I would like some key guidelines on how to sideboard with Goobafish's sideboard, from Goobafish especially, or anyone else using the same sideboard and have managed to reach top 8s with it.

For reference:
4 REBs/pyroblast
4 submerge
4 disrupt
1 EE
1 krosan grip
1 pyroclasm

I still use pithing needle to stop cards such as survival and pernicious deed, and I also don't find 1 EE and 1 pyroclasm enough to fight the tribal/wheenie matchup. I would like to see examples of +/- lists on how to sideboard against as many matchups as possible, preferably the decks to beat, using the above sideboard. Thank you all!

-4 disrupt
+2 pyroclasm
+2 tormads crypt

Disrupt is not very good as people already play around daze and it rarely is important overall. Your best bet is to go with hate that hits other zones. 3 pyroclasm is just right, 4 is too much and 2 means you arent always able to T2 clasm or hold the T2 clasm. Also in the trible matches Goyf> little merfolk,elves,goblins. Although goyf<Vanquisher, vanquisher eats a bolt.

Tormads crypt is a card I have gone to 0 of and regreted it, but 3 is too many as you need to remove loam and at least potentialy have outs to dredge.

EDIT:

What does every one think of this guy

Wisescale Serpent* 1GU
Creature - Snake
Whenever you draw a card, you may put a +1/+1 counter on Wisescale Serpent.
2/2

Its like dryad but strictly better.

Justin
04-21-2009, 10:08 AM
EDIT:

What does every one think of this guy

Wisescale Serpent* 1GU
Creature - Snake
Whenever you draw a card, you may put a +1/+1 counter on Wisescale Serpent.
2/2

Its like dryad but strictly better.

Seems like he has potential in thresh. He gets three counters every time you brainstorm :) The only question is whether the 3cc is a bit much.

johanessen
04-21-2009, 11:33 AM
Pros:
not gy dependant
draw more times than play spells (better than quirion)
pitches with fow

Conts:
Costs 3
bad topdeck
no evasion/shroud

I think it wont get the n uts

rsaunder
04-21-2009, 04:29 PM
When I first read it, I thought I saw "flying" and I was sold, but as a vanilla beater, I don't think it makes the cut over something like predator.

undone
04-22-2009, 07:54 AM
When I first read it, I thought I saw "flying" and I was sold, but as a vanilla beater, I don't think it makes the cut over something like predator.

I agree, I dont see it being better than vendillion clique as the 1/2 of extra creatures in the deck.

Justin
04-22-2009, 09:58 AM
I agree, I dont see it being better than vendillion clique as the 1/2 of extra creatures in the deck.

I dunno. The more I think about it, the more I believe that the serpent is the best three-drop creature you can find. You drop it. Then after drawing a card for your next turn and brainstorming, you are swinging with a 6/6.

undone
04-22-2009, 11:44 AM
I dunno. The more I think about it, the more I believe that the serpent is the best three-drop creature you can find. You drop it. Then after drawing a card for your next turn and brainstorming, you are swinging with a 6/6.

Pros for clique

Almost always gets in there for 3+
evasive (flies over goyf)
Peek+ hand disruption
Top decks like a champ

Cons

Cannot ever block very well...
Dies to EVERYTHING

Serpent

Pros
Tipicaly a 4/4+ after you untap with it
Blocks well in aggro matchups
Faster clock than clique
More removal resistant
Wrecks humility like a champ (important for me ;) )
If you work it right bigger than a dreadnaugh/goyf
Inevitability

Cons
The turn it comes into play it does nothing at all
If top decked you need one of about 12 spells that draw a card or it is very bad.

The thing is, they are better in differant situations I personaly perfer clique at the moment because it feels more agressive and is almost ALWAYS a bolt (citp steal removal smash face at least 1 time) but as tomb stalker becomes a problem I would rather have the snake sometimes.

from Cairo
04-22-2009, 09:18 PM
...you need one of about 12 spells that draw a card or it is very bad.

Honestly I think what's best about the Serpent is that you don't need anything, other than leaving a blue mana open. It serves as Tarmogoyf 5-X as far as creature stand offs go. Cause you can sit there on it as it grows, or swing in depending on hand / board state and even if you're faking them out, I think the possibility of it Giant Growthing is going to fuck with people's combat math a ton.

You don't need to throw a Brainstorm on it turn 4 just so you can swing in for 6, turn sideways for 3, next turn 4, etc, they throw a Goyf in front of it BS it to a 7/7, they throw 2 Goyfs and if you BS into a Bolt you just traded a Bolt for a Goyf, etc.

Obviously the combat can play out differently game to game, just seems like this guy is going to be a lightning rod at worst, and at best is going to grow to insane levels (scarily familiar to our Lhurgoyf friend). I mean I could be completely wrong, but the card seems very good/fitting to U/G as long as Brainstorm is legal in Legacy.

Jak
04-23-2009, 12:36 AM
I dunno. The more I think about it, the more I believe that the serpent is the best three-drop creature you can find. You drop it. Then after drawing a card for your next turn and brainstorming, you are swinging with a 6/6.

You don't get +1/+1 for drawing your card a turn. It says only spells or abilities.

from Cairo
04-23-2009, 07:07 AM
You don't get +1/+1 for drawing your card a turn. It says only spells or abilities.


Wisescale Coatl* - 1GU
Creature - Snake (Uncommon)
Whenever you draw a card, you may put a +1/+1 counter on Wisescale Coatl.
2/2

sauce
04-23-2009, 11:46 AM
should we just run bloodhall ooze then since it can grow too?
i mean i rather run terravore if i was gonna change out the 3 drop for something.

from Cairo
04-23-2009, 02:04 PM
should we just run bloodhall ooze then since it can grow too?
The Serpent doesn't require you to keep a Tarmogoyf or Nimble Mongoose on the table. And in addition to draw step growth it grows with Ponder, Ice and Brainstorm, seems quite a bit different.



i mean i rather run terravore if i was gonna change out the 3 drop for something.
IDK, the notable downsides of Terravore are requiring GG and being somewhat controlable by your opponents choices. Granted G1 probably most people wouldn't play around it, I wouldn't expect Terravore in Thresh, but if I saw it game 2 one could atleast be aware of it. In the late game Terravore will be bigger, in the mid game it could probably go either way depending on how many fetches each player used and how many Wastes were drawn vs how early the Serpent got down, if one had a cantrip heavy hand.

undone
04-23-2009, 03:58 PM
sauce should we just run bloodhall ooze then since it can grow too?
i mean i rather run terravore if i was gonna change out the 3 drop for something.
:rolleyes: :mad:

Come on now sauce. This card is a 3/3 for 3 at worst that gets huge, blood hall ooze is a 2/2 for 1 AT BEST which is not nearly good enough.

The thing is that this creature is one of the fabled "Untap with this in play win the game" cards that MUC and other control decks used to play with. Well when it costs 3 mana instead of 6 thresh can play it, im just not sure if its better than clique, eating a removal, flying and flash are all very strong effects.

sauce
04-26-2009, 11:19 AM
:rolleyes: :mad:

Come on now sauce. This card is a 3/3 for 3 at worst that gets huge, blood hall ooze is a 2/2 for 1 AT BEST which is not nearly good enough.

The thing is that this creature is one of the fabled "Untap with this in play win the game" cards that MUC and other control decks used to play with. Well when it costs 3 mana instead of 6 thresh can play it, im just not sure if its better than clique, eating a removal, flying and flash are all very strong effects.

yeah i was being facetious, its not the worst creatue but it cannot compete w/ the other 3 drops unfortunately. if it had cascade, i would be on it's nuts.

conboy31
04-26-2009, 11:55 PM
How many more sets can Canadian Thresh stay competitive without adding any new maindeck or sideboard cards. I tried out the list about a year ago and it remains virtually unchanged while other decks try out new strategies or implement new mechanics.

emidln
04-27-2009, 01:21 AM
How many more sets can Canadian Thresh stay competitive without adding any new maindeck or sideboard cards. I tried out the list about a year ago and it remains virtually unchanged while other decks try out new strategies or implement new mechanics.

My guess is until Wizards decides to print something better than the 60 cards being played now. Vendilion Clique has the potential to be maindecked if you want to, but Thrash hasn't lost any effectiveness. I doubt the deck will change until either something mind blowing comes out for it or something ridiculous comes out that it can't handle in its current config (which seems unlikely).

undone
04-27-2009, 12:00 PM
There are only about 2 slots in the deck that can change and a 3rd based on metagame. Those slots are the bounce spells and the last fire ice or snare, each is semi metagame call but you want 1 bounce spell at least and personaly unless i am playing infinate goblins I like the 4th fire ice as a clique.

We never really came to a real conclusion on the snake but potentialy it could eat cliques spot.


How many more sets can Canadian Thresh stay competitive without adding any new maindeck or sideboard cards. I tried out the list about a year ago and it remains virtually unchanged while other decks try out new strategies or implement new mechanics.

Unless something format shattering comes about (doubtful) we will remain the most consistent deck in the format and because consistency= power this deck will always be very strong with no deck having more than a 60/40 matchup with it.

spartan117
05-12-2009, 12:45 PM
I'm now testing this new version of thresh UGr, running counterbalance and a new entry: wisescale coatl. I'm not sure if this is the deck that best abuse of it, but 'cause I've decided to run counterbalance I think that he could find its place.

4 polluted delta
4 wooded foothills
4 tropical island
3 volcanic island
2 island
1 forest

4 tarmogoyf
4 nimble mangoose
2 wisescale coatl
1 vendilion clique

4 force of will
4 lightning bolt
3 fire // ice
4 brainstorm
3 sensei's divining top
3 counterbalance
2 predict
3 spell snare
3 daze
2 ponder

Now I've got a few questions for you:

1) Should I be running daze? How many copies? It really slows me and playing coatl.
2) Is vendilion clique a bad choice? Or it does its work in this deck?
3)I'm not so convinced about ponder. I'm already playing a big amount of cantrip effects ( brainstorm, sensei's divining top, predict). May ponder be too much?
4)Last question: should i run stifle instead of spell snare?

Waiting suggests, spartan117

P.S.: please post a decklist with your changes. Thanks.

exaltedgod
05-14-2009, 11:45 AM
As we all know Tarmogoyf has been a smash since the day it was printed. I have only one but the rest of the basics of this deck. What would be a good replacement until I can get my other 3?

Brad Herbig
05-14-2009, 03:02 PM
I'm now testing this new version of thresh UGr, running counterbalance and a new entry: wisescale coatl. I'm not sure if this is the deck that best abuse of it, but 'cause I've decided to run counterbalance I think that he could find its place.

4 polluted delta
4 wooded foothills
4 tropical island
3 volcanic island
2 island
1 forest

4 tarmogoyf
4 nimble mangoose
2 wisescale coatl
1 vendilion clique

4 force of will
4 lightning bolt
3 fire // ice
4 brainstorm
3 sensei's divining top
3 counterbalance
2 predict
3 spell snare
3 daze
2 ponder

Now I've got a few questions for you:

1) Should I be running daze? How many copies? It really slows me and playing coatl.
2) Is vendilion clique a bad choice? Or it does its work in this deck?
3)I'm not so convinced about ponder. I'm already playing a big amount of cantrip effects ( brainstorm, sensei's divining top, predict). May ponder be too much?
4)Last question: should i run stifle instead of spell snare?

Waiting suggests, spartan117

P.S.: please post a decklist with your changes. Thanks.

Of the Counterbalance/Top versions of thresh, red is actually the weakest splash behind white and black. The problem is that red doesn't have a good late game like white's Mystic Enforcer or blacks Bob. The strategy where red thresh really shines is in tempo thresh, which opts to run a solid land destruction suite of 4 Wasteland and 4 Stifle, along with other tempo gaining cards. The list I would suggest playing is:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Rushing River
1 Wipe Away


This version of red thresh is, in my opinion, more fun to play, and can also shut down decks within the first couple turns and win purely on tempo. In addition, red has the best sideboard options of the splashes in Pyroclasm and Pyroblast, for example.

If you want to play CounterTop, I would suggest something similar to Nassif's 4 color countertop thresh. Otherwise, Red Tempo Thresh is freaking awesome.


As we all know Tarmogoyf has been a smash since the day it was printed. I have only one but the rest of the basics of this deck. What would be a good replacement until I can get my other 3?

I would put in 3 Quirion Dryads until you can get the goyfs, but the deck will suffer pretty much from the change.

spartan117
05-14-2009, 03:18 PM
The deck you're suggesting is caplan's canadian threshold and I already know it. I've played a similar deck for months, and now I want to play something new. I think that coatl could find it's place and 'cause I like thresh UGr I'm trying to modify it according to wisescale's time need. I assure you that this decklist is really powerfull, even if Thresh UGw/b better abuse of CB.
Apart from these considerations, what would you change in my decklist?

Waiting suggests, sparta117

Waikiki
05-14-2009, 03:23 PM
I would take a look at brassman's countertop list from GP chicago

Brad Herbig
05-14-2009, 05:13 PM
The deck you're suggesting is caplan's canadian threshold and I already know it. I've played a similar deck for months, and now I want to play something new. I think that coatl could find it's place and 'cause I like thresh UGr I'm trying to modify it according to wisescale's time need. I assure you that this decklist is really powerfull, even if Thresh UGw/b better abuse of CB.
Apart from these considerations, what would you change in my decklist?

Waiting suggests, sparta117

Ok, fair enough. By the way, I think you might mean Lorescale Coatl, rather than Wisescale.

Dark_Cynic87
05-14-2009, 05:48 PM
I feel that Lorescale Coatl in a Thresh list is underwhelming. The time requirement is the problem. I think it will put too much pressure on your list (Brainstorm in particular) to play your draw spells differently to speed up the growth of Lorescale, and thus making them more useful, i.e. hiding a Force from a Duress, digging to find the Fire/Ice or Pyroclasm. Also, they are mostly good on turn 3. Any time you draw one after that turn, their usefulness deteriorates rapidly. Now you have a card worse than Trygon (which is what I still favor when I play thresh). No evasion hurts a creature like this. Personally if I were going to play a pump creature I'd rather play Quirion Dryad like back in the day--at least it's cheaper removal bait. The only difference is it doesn't pitch to force, but no one accepts that as a valid reason to play a card anyway. Oh, Spell Snare :rolleyes:

I don't think it's worth squeezing in. Go Trygon or Dryad; Coatl needs to be built around, not tossed into.

Pce,

--DC

Xero_2285
05-15-2009, 02:31 PM
Took this list to an 8 man last Saturday.

4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Trygon Predator

4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Spell Snare
4x Stifle
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Fire/Ice
1x Rushing River
1x Wipe Away

4x Tropical Island
4x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland
2x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
2x Wooded Foothills

SB:
4x Submerge
4x Disrupt
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroblast
1x Krosan Grip
1x Pyroclasm
1x Engineered Explosives

R1: MonoR Burn 2-0, 1-0
G1: All the usual burn you would expect. Forced Fireblast and Dazed Fork, couldn't get me under 9 before the Goose/Goyf beatdown.
G2: -4 Stifle +4 Disrupt. Disrupt eats his early turns and Goose/Goyf beat face again.

R2: Staff of Domination/Oblivion Stone 0-2, 1-1
G1: Every beater I drop he either Chainer or Diabolic Edict's it. 15 turns of him gaining life and drawing cards turns into multiple Drain life's.
G2: Can't remember what I sided but it went the exact same way as g1 but I managed to stall bouncing Staff and Stone a couple of times but...

R3: AggroLoam 2-0, 2-1
G1: I start dropping early Mongoose and have answers for Devastating Dreams, Knight of the Reliquary, and Terravore. Goyf follows close behind my geese and finishes the job.
G2: I believe I went -4 Spell Snare -1 Daze -1 Stifle +3 Submerge +3 Disrupt. I didn't get to use the Submerge this game but Disrupt came in handy after I Stifled 1 of his Fetch and he couldn't pay 1 for Dreams. Double Goyf beatface ftw.

R4: WhiteWeenie 2-1, 3-1
G1: Was very close. Soltari Priest, Mother of Ruins, Silver Knight all put up a good fight but could not over come 3/3 Geese and 4/5 Goyf's. Fire/Ice was also great in this matchup and I wish I had the 4th one here.
G2: -2 Stifle -1 Daze +1 E.E. +1 Krosan Grip +1 Pyroclasm. Double Soltari Priest and one with a Mask of Memory... he was dropping beats fast and I couldn't match it. Also I drop Trygon this game but it and pryoclasm were basically dead to me.
G3: Same as game 1. He drops Soltari and Mother turn 3, next turn he drops another Mother, I Fire both Mother's and Stifle the ones ability (move wins me the game) this allows for Goyf's to swing freely ftw.

Split to Top4
R5: Same WhiteWeenie from R4 2-1, 4-1
G1: Kid you not, same as R4 G1.
G2: Same as R4 G2.
G3: This was different. I took out his Mother's but he just kept dropping them, Preists were eating me up, I had managed to get him to 1 through Bolt's/Fire and Geese. I have no cards in hand 2 Geese and 1 Goyf, he has 2 Mother's 2 Silver Knight's 3 Soltari 2 other Knights (regenerate when destroyed) and had just resolved Exalted Angel, he swings and puts me a 6. I topdeck a Bolt ftw.

R6: Same AggroLoam as R3 1-2, 4-2
G1: Exact same as R3 G1.
G2: He manages to resolve a Knight and I can't find a Goyf/Bounce, geese aren't enough to hold it back.
G3. Things are going my way but taking a while. 1 Geese beats his face for like 5 turns while I counter everything. He did manage to resolve a Vial and drops Knights in at the end of my turn I stifle it a few times and manage to get him to 3 (he fetch and goes to 2) with the 1 goose and a couple of Bolt/Fire's when he finally resolves a huge 7/7 Knight. I drop the 2nd Goose (can't find a Goyf) and have a Force in hand with no pitch card. He Dreams for 3 and kills my Geese, beats face for 3 turns. Couldn't find Bolt/Fire to save me.

Changes after: -1 Trygon +1 Vendilion Clique SB: Going to try -1 E.E. -1 Disrupt +1 Pyroclasm +1 Grip. Thoughts?

Mordel
05-16-2009, 12:04 AM
Re Coatls: I tried out coatls in a Canadian thresh build. I worked in three and was non-plussed by them. The reason being was that when they came down, I would have burnt through my draw to keep my disruption going or line up protecting for them. In a game or two, they were alright. The biggest one ever got was a 6/6, but I felt like they were sort of a starined addition to the deck.
In all honesty, I'd see myself running a fledgling dragon over coatls if only for the evasion and the fact that by the time the dragon lands, he is going to be a 5/5 flier right off the bat. Keep in mind that I would run predators over either so far, but Canadian thresh isn't quite my forte, but I figured that coatls might make the archetype work for me finally.

With that said, my testing was limited to about four matches and a bunch of fishes just to make sure that three was a good number.

In regards to the number of three, I felt like two would be better, but the problem with that would be that they wouldn't be showing up nearly often enough to grow really. The result was three because it just felt right because it would ensure that I would curve into them, while still having draw on occasion to pump them.

That is the difficult thing with coatl though because I find most successful Canadian thresh games involve me going first turn mongoose, second turn wasteland/stifle on a fetchland+ponder or BS to keep the disruption growing and eventually with the disruption and me getting card quality through cantrips, threshold is met and a goyf drops. I don't really see a three mana beater that requires extra cantrips fitting into a scenario very well. It can be granted that they will gorw by one each turn, but that is extremely unspectacular and if you are growing him the slow way, you would get as much or more damage out a dryad or utility out of a predator...or a bomb in the form of a dragon or a swan if you wanna rock a combo build.

I saw a Canadian thresh coatl build on deckcheck though, so maybe it's working for someone and I didn't test enough.

FYI - "Nonplussed" means confused or bewildered, not "unimpressed." For instance, if thought they were going to suck and they were actually awesome but you couldn't put your finger just on why they were awesome; you could be nonplussed by how well they worked out. - Bardo

Cenarius
05-16-2009, 06:58 AM
I got some questions to be honest.

The sideboard is pretty fixed:

4 Disrupt
4 Submerge
4 Pyro-/red elemental blast
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pyroclasm
1 Engineered Explosives

What will be a sideboard strategy against:

UW(x) Landstill
CB Threshold
Agroloam and Loam (Terranova kind of decks)

Don't u think the disrupt's are a bit overkill? The are great against ANT ofcourse, but do you guys board them more often? Maybe against things like Black sui and Eva green, they are probably good against, but I have no idea to be honest if you want to board them anymore.
And by playing just 1 pyroclasm, do you think we just ignore the goblin matchup? I mean Vial is a real pain in the ass if he lands, but a well timed Pyroclasm can win you the game.

I'd like to get some answers on my questions, maybe we can work out together some sideboard plans.

Waikiki
05-16-2009, 07:00 AM
they are great in the thresh mirror aswell

Blitzbold
05-16-2009, 12:52 PM
I played Canadian Thresh today in a small local tournament and came in first. My board was

4 Submerge
2 Disrupt
1 Trygon Predator
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroclasm
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle

I never boarded the Artifacts, but wasn't paired against Loam, Dredge or Landstill. Submerge and Disrupt were great in 3 out of 4 matches. Next time I'll cut 1 Submerge for an additional Pyroclasm though. Even in the Matchups I wanted them I never boarded in more than 3.

Countering FoW or winning counterwars by using Disrupt was priceless. :D

kabal
05-16-2009, 01:02 PM
4 Submerge
2 Disrupt
...

I never boarded the Artifacts, but wasn't paired against Loam, Dredge or Landstill. Submerge and Disrupt were great in 3 out of 4 matches.

Countering FoW or winning counterwars by using Disrupt was priceless. :D

If Disrupt was that good, wouldn't you want more than 2? Also, what happen to REB/Pyroblast? I find them a little more versatile that Disrupt. To each their own.

Nihil Credo
05-17-2009, 01:34 PM
From the last DTBF update:


A second important change involves how Threshold decks are counted; in the last year the archetype has evolved to the point that the old categorisation by their splash colour (or lack thereof) makes little sense.

Today, the one clear split is between decks packing the maindeck Counterbalance/Top combination and those favouring an aggressive, tempo-driver approach with Daze, Stifle, and Wasteland. The latter decks are quite well established, with only a few secondary choices being discussed (mostly additional threats such as Dreadnought or Alara Reborn creatures) and splashing exclusively either Red or Black.

Counterbalance decks, on the other side, exist in a continuum, from the classic Mongoose builds to the Chicago lists to those incorporating additional tricks (Survival, Natural Order, etc.); they also exist in pretty much every possible colour combination that includes Blue and Green, from two to four colours.
If some clear division in approaches emerges, this will eventually be adopted in both thread organisation and tournament tallies. For the time being, all CounterTop decks that do not fall into any established category, i.e. that follow the game plan of "establish the Balance soft-lock and play good creatures", will get dumped into one format-leading cauldron.

In accordance with the above, this thread is being locked and will eventually be archived. You may continue your discussion in either the CounterTop thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13716) or the Tempo Thresh (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13715) thread, as appropriate.