[Card] Thoughtseize

[kicks_422]

Thoughtseize B

Sorcery - Rare

Target player reveals his or her hand. Choose a nonland card from it. That player discards that card.
You lose 2 life.


Obviously a much better Duress. The 2 life would be so minimal compared to the headaches you can get when a Lackey/Tarmogoyf/Breakfast combo creature/Meddling Mage/you get the point hits the table.

So decks with Duress would replace them with Thoughtseize. What about other decks that are having a hard time dealing with resolved creatures? Would they be pushed into contention with the printing of this card?

[Bane of the Living]

So is this card official now? Most of the speculated cards have been right.

I think this will boost playability of Extirpate quite a bit and bring black gobbos into tier one. I might be eating my words but this card is fucking nuts.

[technogeek5000]

I know im running 4 of these in my Sui deck. Im probably gonna pick up 2 playsets of this card the day the set comes out. This card seems like one of the strongest cards in the set currently. Also i realy like the name of the card.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

There's no doubt about it: Thoughtseize will hit Legacy hard.

[Illissius]

Card is ridiculous. Against combo and control, your life total doesn't matter; against aggro, being able to take a creature is so worth the two life. Thoughtseize against Goblins versus Duress against Goblins is quite the contrast. (Read: Mediocre vs. almost completely fucking useless). And, yeah, Tarmogoyf. About the only deck against which it's clearly and significantly inferior is Burn, a tremendous consideration in any metagame.

[Wallace]

Card is broken. Prob. best card in set so far, for legacy that is, will def. be picking up a foil set. Wizards made it a rare, so it will prob. cost me a bit!! :frown:

[Cait_Sith]

Actually Thoughtseize is worse than Duress in Control, worse against Aggro or Ag-Con packing even more than just 4 Lightning Bolt for Burn, and worse against almost every Combo deck out there, since no few actually play creatures. Honestly, the only Combo deck with this is better than Duress is against Cephalid Breakfast.

No denying that, if real, Thoughtseize will be very good, but, we seem to be having the same effect with it that we saw with Extirpate and Street Wraith: People see it and scream that it will annihilate Magic for all eternity, make everything totally broken, ruin three or four different deck strategies, etc, etc. It is good, yes, but don't assume that it will overrun every aspect of life.

[DragoFireheart]

The ability to be able to hit creatures is such a huge advanatge over Duress. The life of loss is never truely a loss even against burn as you can grab their Fireblast or Lightning Bolt and still have a net gain of +1 life. Duress is better but this is the exception and not the rule.

Would this card be worth making a U/G/b thresh deck around to take advanatge of? Course you couldn't use Gaddock by doing this, but...

This set is going to rock guys!

[Nihil Credo]

Heck, Thoughtseize is probably pretty good against Goblins too. While in most instances you'd rather have a Ghastly Demise to save 2 life and make them waste the mana, being able to remove Matron, Incinerator, SCG, and fucking Ringleader before they hit the board is very good.

EDIT: Actually, that only leaves Lackey, Warchief, Piledriver, and (not always) Fanatic as Goblins which you'd rather kill than Thoughtseize.

[Cait_Sith]

Okay, let us go over a few things:

Most Aggro decks either play creatures that are either small with great effect (Carnophage's Cost, Hippie's Discard) or play Red, at which point the two life loss is always relevant. Duress is better against those because you are painfully digging into your own life.

Control decks almost never run creatures, and if they do the chance of you being able to both hit it and deal serious damage is small at best. Often they will have multiple win conditions and their mass removal is a juicier target anyways. Thus far no creatures with mass removal abilities have been printed such that they are playable in Legacy.

Thus far the only combo deck where the ability to hit creatures would be relevant is Cephalid Breakfast. Thoughtseize is definitely better there. However, Storm based Combo doesn't run creatures, so Thoughtseize is either equal to Duress (Solidarity and Spring Tide) or worse than Duress (Belcher, Iggy, TES) and much worse against Ichorid (you can only help them by shooting down an dredge creature and taking away your own life).

It is good, but "Duress is only better against Burn decks" is extremely weak logic.

[Versus]

Well, whether or not it sees heavy play in Legacy, you can damn well bank on it being fucking INCREDIBLE in Standard and stupid expensive because of it.

[kicks_422]

No denying that, if real, Thoughtseize will be very good, but, we seem to be having the same effect with it that we saw with Extirpate and Street Wraith: People see it and scream that it will annihilate Magic for all eternity, make everything totally broken, ruin three or four different deck strategies, etc, etc.

Yes, it's real.

Oh, and nobody's saying that. It's just a good, solid card that could replace Duress and could give some leverage to decks that just lose to a resolved Goyf (Red Death comes to mind - and it fits the suicide theme as well!)

[DragoFireheart]

Okay, let us go over a few things:

Most Aggro decks either play creatures that are either small with great effect (Carnophage's Cost, Hippie's Discard) or play Red, at which point the two life loss is always relevant. Duress is better against those because you are painfully digging into your own life.

Control decks almost never run creatures, and if they do the chance of you being able to both hit it and deal serious damage is small at best. Often they will have multiple win conditions and their mass removal is a juicier target anyways. Thus far no creatures with mass removal abilities have been printed such that they are playable in Legacy.

Thus far the only combo deck where the ability to hit creatures would be relevant is Cephalid Breakfast. Thoughtseize is definitely better there. However, Storm based Combo doesn't run creatures, so Thoughtseize is either equal to Duress (Solidarity and Spring Tide) or worse than Duress (Belcher, Iggy, TES) and much worse against Ichorid (you can only help them by shooting down an dredge creature and taking away your own life).

It is good, but "Duress is only better against Burn decks" is extremely weak logic.

While I wasn't suggesting that Thoughtseize was better than Duress against burn [LOL?], you have to ask yourself this:

If you could run 8 Duresses, would you?

[Cait_Sith]

No, not unless I was walking into Storm-Combo.meta. Don't forget, if your opponent has no cards in hand, attacking his hand doesn't do much.

Thoughtseize will most likely become a companion card to Duress. In decks with a resolved big creature can be a problem, or where a low life total is not a problem, run Thoughtseize (Black Goblins, Deadguy, Red Death). If you already run a good removal suite (Trainwreck, Truffle Shuffle, some Survival), or if you need to keep your life total high (Most Control, Suicide Black) then run Duress.

[kicks_422]

That sounds just about right, actually.

[Cait_Sith]

It is good then that we agree.

[DragoFireheart]

No, not unless I was walking into Storm-Combo.meta. Don't forget, if your opponent has no cards in hand, attacking his hand doesn't do much.

Thoughtseize will most likely become a companion card to Duress. In decks with a resolved big creature can be a problem, or where a low life total is not a problem, run Thoughtseize (Black Goblins, Deadguy, Red Death). If you already run a good removal suite (Trainwreck, Truffle Shuffle, some Survival), or if you need to keep your life total high (Most Control, Suicide Black) then run Duress.

Well I'd have to agree. Thoughtseize is also not helpful for fighting graveyard based combo as most of their cards are creatures [Ichorid] and being able to make them discard a creatures generally won't do a damn thing for you.

I will say this: we can expect to see this in gobbos as a means to fight goyf. Black also offers other ways to kill gofys like smother.

[Cait_Sith]

The 2 major Grave-Based combo decks right now are Ichorid and Breakfast and Thoughtseize is a solid anti-Breakfast card. I think that Thoughtseize will eventually integrate itself nicely into Legacy.

[Bovinious]

Thoughtseize can take Ichorid's Putrid Imp, making it a bit better than Duress I'd say.

[Cait_Sith]

IFF the actually have said Putrid Imp in their opening hand and IFF you are on the play. Otherwise they will just play it and go. Often Imp ends up shaving off 1-2 turns anyway.

[TheAardvark]

Thoughtseize is pretty much a Vintage card. It's better than Cabal Therapy in that format, and will see heavy play. It will make a splash in the other formats also, but unless Legacy suddenly becomes combo-centric, it won't be as amazing as everyone lets on.

[Tacosnape]

First of all, Thoughtseize replaces Duress in a lot of Survival, because Survival runs lifegain to offset that shit, and some builds don't run a -lot- of removal for creatures.

Secondly, this replaces Therapy in Suicide Black, which can't afford to spend the creatures, giving Sui Black Duress/Thoughtseize/Hymn/Jitte as a disruption suite. Pretty good, if you ask me. Duress/Therapy/Thoughtseize is also an option if you want to forego Hymn, I suppose.

Third, and most of all, this goes in Goblins. Maindecked. Period. I can't stress this enough. None of the black tribal cards alone warranted the black splash, but Thoughtseize does. The board will be a constant debate, I imagine, between Duress/Therapy/Crypt/Needle/Pyrokinesis/Smother/Weird Shit, but I can't imagine not wanting to run Thoughtseize, which pre-emptively answers any problem known to Goblins.

I agree with Cait Sith in that I don't think it makes Duress or Therapy obsolete, but it'll worm its way into a lot of decks that don't like running both for one reason or another. Also, any deck maindecking two of the three is very likely to run the third in sideboard.

It's also worth examining what this card is good -against- rather than what it's good in. It's already been mentioned that the card is a powerhouse against Goblins when compared to Duress, but look at some of the other options. Imagine the thing against Enchantress, being able to take either Enchantress's Presence -or- Argothian Enchantress. Duress can only get Presence, and Therapy has to guess which one they're holding sometimes.

Also, Gamekeeper Salvagers may have just gotten sexy again, as it's one of the few combo decks that could easily maindeck the 12 Discarders. And it just gained Teeg as a wish target.

[Nihil Credo]

It will make a splash in the other formats also, but unless Legacy suddenly becomes combo-centric, it won't be as amazing as everyone lets on.
Huh? Thoughtseize is great exactly because Legacy is not combo-centric; in that case, Duress would be the better card.

[xsockmonkeyx]

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[Anusien]

This can take a Tarmogoyf, making it a much more attractive option against Threshold.

[zulander]

Thoughtseize is great against aggro for 2 reasons.
1. If you take a creature chances are that creatures power is greater than 2, if so you've taken 2 now so you wont have to take 2/3 for next couple of turns.

2. If you take a lightning bolt you've just saved your creatures, and if they were to aim it at you you've essentially made their bolts into shocks.

To say this card is broken and will change the format into redonka-donkness is absurd.

[Volt]

Hello chase rare. Get ready to shell out $100 for a playset of these babies, unless you're lucky enough to open them up in packs.

[Cait_Sith]

To say this card is broken and will change the format into redonka-donkness is absurd.

Okay. Let us determine a few things right now about brokeness. If this card was broken, Duress would have already overrun the format to the point where Only the most heavy creature decks would be playable. If that were the case, then everyone would be play a goblins variant. Since this is far from the truth, we can determine that targeted discard is not broken, not even the most efficient targeted discard.

Taking one card is NOT the end of the world and NEVER will be, unless your opponent has built an amazingly bad deck. If this is the case, you have no business losing to him anyway.

On the Aggro note: This card is NOT good against Aggro. When their goal is, first and foremost, to attack at much as possible, then helping them along will never benefit you. Thus far ONE cheap creature has been printed were Thoughtseize would truly be a boon, Tarmogoyf, and that creature is not good in pure Aggro ANYWAY.

[TheAardvark]

Huh? Thoughtseize is great exactly because Legacy is not combo-centric; in that case, Duress would be the better card.

Duress is better anyway, IMO.

What I was trying to say is that people would play both in a combo heavy meta. Not all decks can afford the potential -8 to their life total, so it might not get as much play as expected in the current environment. It is better than Duress in some decks, but not as good in others, so...

Yeah.

[Hanni]

Thoughtseize is cool because it's not dead against Goblins like Duress is. It's just too bad that Goblins is currently declining (which make reverse if a solid Goblins/b is built). Otherwise, the biggest thing here, IMO, is not whether or not this is better than Duress, but how much stronger a discard package now becomes. Not every deck was capable of fully utilizing Duress and Therapy or Duress and Hymn. Now they can run Duress and Thoughtseize. Even cooler is the fact that, now, aggro decks like WW and Zoo can splash black for 12 1cc splashable discard spells to drastically improve their combo matchups (more than likely 8 MD with 4 in the SB).

[Versus]

I Never think about life loss like that Aardvark when it comes down to one spell.

Is running 8 Fetch lands a potential -8 loss? Sure, but do you use all 8 Fetch in every match? No. Under that logic, running 4 Pox and 4 Smallpox in a deck would be an automatic loss? You might as well not even shuffle, right?

Now adding this to Sui combined with 1 drop Zombies, Fetches, Confidant, Snuff Out ect and I think Duress is the better choice.

[DeathwingZERO]

Okay. Let us determine a few things right now about brokeness. If this card was broken, Duress would have already overrun the format to the point where Only the most heavy creature decks would be playable. If that were the case, then everyone would be play a goblins variant. Since this is far from the truth, we can determine that targeted discard is not broken, not even the most efficient targeted discard.

Taking one card is NOT the end of the world and NEVER will be, unless your opponent has built an amazingly bad deck. If this is the case, you have no business losing to him anyway.

On the Aggro note: This card is NOT good against Aggro. When their goal is, first and foremost, to attack at much as possible, then helping them along will never benefit you. Thus far ONE cheap creature has been printed were Thoughtseize would truly be a boon, Tarmogoyf, and that creature is not good in pure Aggro ANYWAY.

I think you read him wrong, Cait. He said that calling the card broken is absurd. Meaning he's agreeing with everyone here.

As far as I'm concerned, in most cases this should replace Therapy. As stated, very few decks packing them want to get rid of the creature (short of Ichorid), and getting to hit a card guaranteed for 2 life > maybe hitting multiples or maybe hitting 0. It's especially good in decks not packing 6-8 Fetchlands, as the offset of life early on is negligible.

I would agree however, that Standard and Extended are going to LOVE this card. And in Vintage, I can already see it being packed as a 4 of maindeck in some builds, just because 2 life is meaningless when your comparing it to combo decks that put you from 20 to 0 with a resolved Will, or a Slaver activation that basically Mind Twists you. Again, Legacy seems to get the short end of abusing an otherwise powerful card.

[BreathWeapon]

The card is better against Goblins than Duress is, so I fail to see how the card is terrible against aggro in a deck that wants to use a Duress effect. Even against Zoo, the card can remove a creature as opposed to a bolt, and altho' 2 damage is incurred, the creature would have done more damage over time than the bolt.

TES runs Xantid Swarm, so the card isn't worthless against Storm combo either. Granted it's not better against Landstill, but Landstill has no clock, so the damage is sort of irrelevant.

Sure, you have to compare the games lost to 2 damage to the games lost from a resolved Goblin Lackey, Xantid Swarm, Tarmogoyf, Cephalid Illusionist, Academy Rector, Gamekeeper or aggro creature etc. but the card seems superior to Duress against everything but Landstill. I'd rather have the option of discarding one of Belcher's 0/1cc creature mana sources when it has 2 win conditions in hand or Ichorid's Putrid Imp than not for 2 damage.

Regardless, the card is going to be mandatory in Vintage and Standard and good in Extended, so you should buy them any way and test them in any deck running Duress in Legacy already.

[Hanni]

The way I see it is... it's pretty much like reprinting Duress with a different name. Yea, the ability is slightly different. However, the effects are similar like Ponder and Portent is. Before the printing of this card, Duress was the best discard spell in the format. Now we have 2 different Duress spells available to us. Aside from the decks that just want to splash for a few discard effects (like Fish), I see no reason why decks running either Duress or Thoughtseize wouldn't want to run the other.

[Bane of the Living]

How could any of you possibly argue this card isnt what we wanted Exi to be for black. Its the black Brainstorm! The black Tarmagoyf! Why would it be worse in Legacy than the other formats? I will never ever play Duress over this.

Cait Sith this reminds me of when you were trying to argue that Tarmagoyf wasnt an auto replacement for Werebear simply since he doesnt tap for green. Dont argue just for the sake of arguing. Thoughtseize is for real and its gonna change legacy almost as much as goyf did.

Tendrils combo will be so nuts now.

[Versus]

That didn't take long...

http://cgi.ebay.com/MTG-MAGIC-LORWYN-THOUGHTSEIZE-x4-Flat-S-H_W0QQitemZ200155389085QQihZ010QQcategoryZ19114QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Lemuria]

what?????

60,00 fucking dollars?????

[marit]

what?????

60,00 fucking dollars?????
Reading is tech, it's only $60. I don't think I'll be getting a playset for a while at this price.

[Nihil Credo]

Lemuria read that perfectly, the fail is on you. Outside of USA/UK, commas in numbers are used as decimal separators (and periods as large number breakdown).

[Lemuria]

Lemuria read that perfectly, the fail is on you. Outside of USA/UK, commas in numbers are used as decimal separators (and periods as large number breakdown).

Exactly, thx for explain it.

[Illissius]

Still, prices prior to the set actually being released are expected to be rather inflated.

I'm not sure if this is quite a Tarmogoyf, but it's at least a Duress; a Duress is something I never expected them to print again, and this thing is likely better. Somewhere between Duress and Tarmogoyf is worth getting very excited about.

[BreathWeapon]

Still, prices prior to the set actually being released are expected to be rather inflated.

I'm not sure if this is quite a Tarmogoyf, but it's at least a Duress; a Duress is something I never expected them to print again, and this thing is likely better. Somewhere between Duress and Tarmogoyf is worth getting very excited about.

With the exception of Tarmogoyf, which sees limited play in Vintage, Thoughtseize is the only card that will see play in every format. While Thoughtseize isn't as far ahead of other discard spells as Tarmogoyf is of other creatures, a disruption card that is going to see play in every format is probably going to be in the 15+ range after things settle down.

[Ridiculous Hat]

Let me put it this way...

1.0 > Thoughtseize > Duress > 0.9

Yes, thoughtseize is better than duress and should be run instead. The card is not broken or overpowered or anything-- the only poor design decision was to make it a rare. So far, the set has been revealed to be pretty mediocre, and I'm pretty sure they pushed this card to create another chase rare.

I cannot see very many situation where this card is worse than Duress-- maybe if I knew that 5 guys were coming to my local tournament with straightburn.dec. But the improvement is small enough in most metagames that I don't think this will really change legacy much-- this card doesn't empower black, it just makes existing black decks slightly better.

This card really helps standard, and I'm pretty sure that extended will need this card in 2008 when both Duress and Therapy rotate out.

[Cait_Sith]

This card will barely affect Standard, and I don't see what you mean about "substandard" for this set? It has a few true chase rares, and a few cards that can affect Legacy, but over all it is a very good set. Just because Wizards refuses to make every block Urza's doesn't mean they all suck.

Also, like I said before, Control will VERY rarely actually want Thoughtseize over Duress due to the need to keep their life total as high as possible combined with their large removal suite.

Black Splash Life on the other hand...

[Ridiculous Hat]

This card will barely affect Standard, and I don't see what you mean about "substandard" for this set? It has a few true chase rares, and a few cards that can affect Legacy, but over all it is a very good set. Just because Wizards refuses to make every block Urza's doesn't mean they all suck.I don't see the reasoning for why this set is very good-- please feel free to offer counterexamples, but right now I see decent creatures combat-wise and very little else. I've only glanced at the spoiler, so I could very well be wrong. And believe me, I know not every set sucks-- Ravnica block is probably my favorite block of all time.

Though I am going to challenge you saying that Thoughtseize will barely affect standard. Black is a highly played color already, there's a Bg discard deck that actually plays the Rack, and you're telling me that a better duress won't see play? You're going to have to have to do a lot of work to convince me of that one.


Also, like I said before, Control will VERY rarely actually want Thoughtseize over Duress due to the need to keep their life total as high as possible combined with their large removal suite.

Black Splash Life on the other hand...Would control decks play this card--

B
Sorcery
Destroy target creature. Lose 2 life.

Generally, I think they would. If you use Thoughtseize to take a creature out of their hand, which Duress cannot, then you can save a removal spell for something else. Not saying that there won't be situations where Duress is better, but this card can actually deal with creatures preemptively.

[Happy Gilmore]

Let me put it this way...

1.0 > Thoughtseize > Duress > 0.9

Yes, thoughtseize is better than duress and should be run instead. The card is not broken or overpowered or anything-- the only poor design decision was to make it a rare. So far, the set has been revealed to be pretty mediocre, and I'm pretty sure they pushed this card to create another chase rare.



really?

look at just the cards that might see legacy play:

Thoughtseize
gaddock Teeg
Thorn of Amethyst
Burrenton Forge-Tender
Crib Swap (boarderline)
Galepowder Mage (might make its way into survival)
Goldmeadow Stalwart
Hoofprint of the Stag
Knight of Medowgrain
Oblivion Ring
Thoughtweft Trio (mostly because there are other playable kithkin)
Wispermare
Familiar's Ruse (additional cost actually makes it better)
Jace Beleren (still up in the are on this one but it seems like the mana cost is low enough to be playable)
Ponder
Bogghart Mob
Knucklebone Witch
Mad Auntie
Profane Command
Shriekmaw
Tarfire
Wren's run Vanquisher (assuming elfs are playable in legacy, which I am not sure they are. All of these creatures do have excellent synergy with Aether Vial)
Doran


My point being that there are already loads of cards that justify testing. My guess is that more than just Gaddock, Thorn, and Thoughtseize will see play. This set it giving legacy player a plethora of options to fool around with. I'm excited.

[Ridiculous Hat]

Thoughtseize
gaddock Teeg
Thorn of Amethyst
Burrenton Forge-Tender
Crib Swap (boarderline)
Galepowder Mage (might make its way into survival)
Goldmeadow Stalwart
Hoofprint of the Stag
Knight of Medowgrain
Oblivion Ring
Thoughtweft Trio (mostly because there are other playable kithkin)
Wispermare
Familiar's Ruse (additional cost actually makes it better)
Jace Beleren (still up in the are on this one but it seems like the mana cost is low enough to be playable)
Ponder
Bogghart Mob
Knucklebone Witch
Mad Auntie
Profane Command
Shriekmaw
Tarfire
Wren's run Vanquisher (assuming elfs are playable in legacy, which I am not sure they are. All of these creatures do have excellent synergy with Aether Vial)
DoranCrib Swap is already legal-- it's called Afterlife.
I'm gonna say no way on Crib Swap, Galepowder Mage, Hoofprint, Wispermare, Thoughtweft Trio, Jace, Profane Command, and Shriekmaw. That leaves goblins and creatures that are good at combat.

Like, I'm not saying the set is bad. It isn't. But it's not that great-- it's a creature set that'll be good for standard, mediocre for extended, and mediocre for legacy. Goblins will get better, WW will probably get a bit better, and then there's the three rares mentioned that will see moderate to heavy play. There could very well be more, but so far I don't think this is going to have a huge legacy impact.

And btw, I agree that Jace's mana cost is totally appropriate. But the planeswalkers also have a cost of time, and time is not something that is widely prevalent in legacy. Plus, I don't think the card can compete with the drawing power of FoF/Standstill.

[Happy Gilmore]

Crib Swap is already legal-- it's called Afterlife.
I'm gonna say no way on Crib Swap, Galepowder Mage, Hoofprint, Wispermare, Thoughtweft Trio, Jace, Profane Command, and Shriekmaw. That leaves goblins and creatures that are good at combat.

Like, I'm not saying the set is bad. It isn't. But it's not that great-- it's a creature set that'll be good for standard, mediocre for extended, and mediocre for legacy. Goblins will get better, WW will probably get a bit better, and then there's the three rares mentioned that will see moderate to heavy play. There could very well be more, but so far I don't think this is going to have a huge legacy impact.

And btw, I agree that Jace's mana cost is totally appropriate. But the planeswalkers also have a cost of time, and time is not something that is widely prevalent in legacy. Plus, I don't think the card can compete with the drawing power of FoF/Standstill.

I agree with most of what you said, except about Wispermare and Shriekmaw. This set it providing us with more playable options than the last 2-3 sets combined. The ablities on these cards are good, and they are efficiently priced for the effect. (not refering to the cards I listed but the set in general)

[Ridiculous Hat]

I agree with most of what you said, except about Wispermare and Shriekmaw. This set it providing us with more playable options than the last 2-3 sets combined. The ablities on these cards are good, and they are efficiently priced for the effect. (not refering to the cards I listed but the set in general)I mean, TS block was kinda shitty in terms of legacy outside of a certain two-mana green creature. I do think this set will probably have more impact, but that isn't saying much.

Like, here's the deal-- I don't have a problem with R&D or the way they design sets. Sometimes they put out great sets, sometimes they don't. Usually they plan the power level of sets to go on a kind of oscillating curve, and it is very rare that you will see two very powerful blocks next to each other. In standard, this isn't a problem because of the size of the card pool, but in legacy, every new card is fighting against ancient wotc philosophies and design mistakes. You have to compete with some of the biggest blunders of all time in this format, and that takes a lot of power.

I just don't believe in calling a mediocre creature-oriented set anything other than a mediocre creature-oriented set.

[Illissius]

I mean, TS block was kinda shitty in terms of legacy outside of a certain two-mana green creature.

A certain two-mana green creature and a certain four-mana red sorcery.

[Ridiculous Hat]

A certain two-mana green creature and a certain four-mana red sorcery.Oh yeah. That card. Awk.

[TheAardvark]

I Never think about life loss like that Aardvark when it comes down to one spell.

Is running 8 Fetch lands a potential -8 loss? Sure, but do you use all 8 Fetch in every match? No. Under that logic, running 4 Pox and 4 Smallpox in a deck would be an automatic loss? You might as well not even shuffle, right?

Now adding this to Sui combined with 1 drop Zombies, Fetches, Confidant, Snuff Out ect and I think Duress is the better choice.

Note that I said some decks would have issues with the life loss, not all decks. You even provided a fine example.

Just clarifying that.

[n00bas4urus_r3x]

Will anyone drop Hymn for this? 4 Duress and 4 Thoughtseize would be nice, even minus the card advantage Hymn gives you. I'm fairly drunk right now and having a tough time putting this all together. Granted Hymn-Hymn-I-Win goes out the window, but the chance to grab any card (excluding land) off a Thoughtseize would be really nice. Just my two cents.

[from Cairo]

Will anyone drop Hymn for this? 4 Duress and 4 Thoughtseize would be nice, even minus the card advantage Hymn gives you. I'm fairly drunk right now and having a tough time putting this all together. Granted Hymn-Hymn-I-Win goes out the window, but the chance to grab any card (excluding land) off a Thoughtseize would be really nice. Just my two cents.

I'm pretty sure if you can run Hymn (aka reliably can get BB turn 2) its superior as a main deck slot. Hymn is a different type of card than Duress/Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy because unlike all of them it does provide card advantage, I don't think that aspect can be discarded (eh :rolleyes: no pun intended). I would replace Duress probably though, move it to the sb or something, pretty sure for general main deck situations Thoughtseize is going to be a stronger play.

[Bovinious]

I dont know why you guys are dissing TS block, it gave rise stronger storm combo via ETW, the brokeness that is Tarmogoyf, and lets not forget Bridge from Below and Narcomoeba, powering Breakfast and Ichorid.

[BreathWeapon]

I dont know why you guys are dissing TS block, it gave rise stronger storm combo via ETW, the brokeness that is Tarmogoyf, and lets not forget Bridge from Below and Narcomoeba, powering Breakfast and Ichorid.

Simian Spirit Guide was also huge, IMO, TS block had the most influential Legacy cards in it since Mirrodin block.

[outsideangel]

Back to Thoughtseize, this card is stupid, stupid good.

It can take Tarmogoyf, and Tarmogoyf, and Tarmogoyf, and also I guess some other stuff too, but most importantly, it can take Tarmogoyf.

But in all seriousness, look at a card like Duress in Vintage. Duress is extremely powerful in Vintage because Duress is good against everything in that format. Well, Thoughtseize is good against everything in every format.

If you have more than two life, and your opponent has a card in hand, Thoughtseize is good. It's good against combo. It's good against aggro. It's good against aggro-control when they don't have creatures in hand, and it's good against aggro-control when they do have creatures in hand. It can take Goblin Charbelcher. It can take Goblin Ringleader. It can take Force of Will. It can take Tarmogoyf.

Thoughtseize is good against absolutely every deck in the format so long as those decks play cards that are good. It's as strong as the best card in your opponent's hand, and given Legacy's power level, that's pretty good. I guess against Shock.deck, Thoughtseize is terrible, but when you can knock out the best your opponent's got to throw at you, it's damn fine.

[Illissius]

Actually, it's pretty bad against 43land.dec after their first turn.

[kicks_422]

Duress is too, so there's no point of camparison there.

[Illissius]

Obviously, it's just a (possibly the only) counterexample to "it's awesome against every deck ever".

[Ridiculous Hat]

Simian Spirit Guide was also huge, IMO, TS block had the most influential Legacy cards in it since Mirrodin block.It had 4 really powerful combo cards and 1 creature out of the entire 650+ card block. I don't consider that successful.

[Pinder]

It had 4 really powerful combo cards and 1 creature out of the entire 650+ card block. I don't consider that successful.

Being honest, though, that's all we usually get, really. I mean, how many playable cards came out of Kamigawa? 3? And Coldsnap? 2 (ish)? Time Spiral gave us a bunch of stuff in comparison to other recent sets (except maybe Ravnica, there was a bunch of playable stuff there, too).

[Ridiculous Hat]

Being honest, though, that's all we usually get, really. I mean, how many playable cards came out of Kamigawa? 3? And Coldsnap? 2 (ish)? Time Spiral gave us a bunch of stuff in comparison to other recent sets (except maybe Ravnica, there was a bunch of playable stuff there, too).Kamigawa and Coldsnap were both atrocious-- even in t2. Good blocks like Ravnica have great cards across all formats but don't warp any. It's a hard balance to find and maintain. Before Ravnica, I guess Odyssey block would be the one to choose.

[kicks_422]

It was more of the mechanics in Odyssey, not the cards though.

There are a lot of "playable cards" in each block, but they all find it hard to find a home in Eternal formats because of such a massive card pool available. Only a few get popular right away (e.g. Jitte in creature decks, Dark Confidant in Fish, and Thoughtseize in most decks with Duress), and even fewer spawn new archetypes (e.g. Life from the Loam).

So... Yeah. Legacy getting 5 new staple cards in a block is already a good deal. Lorwyn has at least 3 already.

[Nihil Credo]

1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
1 [TSP] Gemstone Caverns
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

1 [TSP] Children of Korlis
1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
1 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
1 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle
1 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
1 [TSP] Knight of the Holy Nimbus
1 [FUT] Narcomoeba
1 [TSP] Plague Sliver
1 [TSP] Serra Avenger
1 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
1 [PLC] Sinew Sliver
1 [PLC] Stonecloaker
1 [FUT] Street Wraith
1 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [TSP] Tivadar of Thorn
1 [FUT] Tombstalker
1 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer

1 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
1 [TSP] Chromatic Star
1 [FUT] Glittering Wish
1 [PLC] Mana Tithe
1 [PLC] Extirpate
1 [PLC] Damnation
1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
1 [FUT] Bridge from Below
1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
1 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes
1 [TSP] Rift Bolt
1 [PLC] Rough/Tumble
1 [PLC] Seal of Primordium
1 [TSP] Smallpox
1 [TSP] Snapback
1 [TSP] Trickbind


Frankly, I find it ridiculous to claim that TSP block was short on playable cards. Even if we're just talking about new format staples, depending on one's criteria one can easily have half a dozen of those (my picks would be Goyf, EtW, Grip, Extirpate, Dread Return, and Serra Avenger).

EDIT: Moreover, Ravnica may have been a great block for T2/Ext, but it was pretty fucking terrible for Legacy, at least compared to TSP. Here's a list of Ravnica playables - half as many as TSP's, and most of them are really a stretch:

1 [GP] Scab-Clan Mauler
1 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
1 [RAV] Vinelasher Kudzu
1 [RAV] Watchwolf
1 [GP] Wild Cantor
1 [DIS] Azorius Guildmage
1 [RAV] Helldozer
1 [RAV] Dark Confidant
1 [GP] Burning-Tree Shaman
1 [RAV] Boros Swiftblade
Stinkweed Imp
Golgari Grave-Troll
Golgari Thug

1 [RAV] Lightning Helix
1 [RAV] Remand
1 [GP] Repeal
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
1 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [GP] Leyline of the Void
1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [RAV] Darkblast
1 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
1 [DIS] Condemn
1 [GP] Castigate

[technogeek5000]

Umm what about the dregders?

[Nihil Credo]

Thanks for the note, I've added them. It's still way less than Time Spiral block, though.

[Ridiculous Hat]

1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
1 [TSP] Gemstone Caverns
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

1 [TSP] Children of Korlis
1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
1 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
1 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle
1 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
1 [TSP] Knight of the Holy Nimbus
1 [FUT] Narcomoeba
1 [TSP] Plague Sliver
1 [TSP] Serra Avenger
1 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
1 [PLC] Sinew Sliver
1 [PLC] Stonecloaker
1 [FUT] Street Wraith
1 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [TSP] Tivadar of Thorn
1 [FUT] Tombstalker
1 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer

1 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
1 [TSP] Chromatic Star
1 [FUT] Glittering Wish
1 [PLC] Mana Tithe
1 [PLC] Extirpate
1 [PLC] Damnation
1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
1 [FUT] Bridge from Below
1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
1 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes
1 [TSP] Rift Bolt
1 [PLC] Rough/Tumble
1 [PLC] Seal of Primordium
1 [TSP] Smallpox
1 [TSP] Snapback
1 [TSP] Trickbind


Frankly, I find it ridiculous to claim that TSP block was short on playable cards. Even if we're just talking about new format staples, depending on one's criteria one can easily have half a dozen of those (my picks would be Goyf, EtW, Grip, Extirpate, Dread Return, and Serra Avenger).

EDIT: Moreover, Ravnica may have been a great block for T2/Ext, but it was pretty fucking terrible for Legacy, at least compared to TSP. Here's a list of Ravnica playables - half as many as TSP's, and most of them are really a stretch:

1 [GP] Scab-Clan Mauler
1 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
1 [RAV] Vinelasher Kudzu
1 [RAV] Watchwolf
1 [GP] Wild Cantor
1 [DIS] Azorius Guildmage
1 [RAV] Helldozer
1 [RAV] Dark Confidant
1 [GP] Burning-Tree Shaman
1 [RAV] Boros Swiftblade

1 [RAV] Lightning Helix
1 [RAV] Remand
1 [GP] Repeal
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
1 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [GP] Leyline of the Void
1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [RAV] Darkblast
1 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
1 [DIS] Condemn
1 [GP] CastigateNow, I'm not a legacy metagame expert, but it seems like some of the cards from your TSP list are suspect. Children of Korlis? Magus of the Tabernacle? Plague Sliver, Sinew Sliver, Rough/Tumble and Smallpox? I'm not entirely sure on these.

Now, it is entirely possible that I'm undervaluing the impact of TSP because of all the reprints and "planeshifts"-- but a card in a different color is a different card.

If we're talking about staples and I go with your list, Rav had Helix, Remand, Confidant, Leyline, Infernal Tutor, Grave-Troll, Loam, Stinkweed Imp, Darkblast, and Snare. I'm not counting Protean Hulk, but you can't deny the importance of that card.

I'm not talking about fringe cards that work in one tier 2 deck somewhere. There are more of those from TSP at the moment because that's the most recent block-- the Ravnica fringe cards have already been tried and discarded. When Lorwyn comes about, you'll see the exact same thing happen. But if you look at staple cards that persist across decks and see consistent high-level play and high-level success, Time Spiral comes up short compared to Ravnica.

If you don't believe me, look here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/bd295a

[The Rack]

The saddest thing about Thoughtseize is that now I have to buy 4 Teegs in place of Hymns and 4 Thoughtseize in place of Duress. Money is a bitch...

[Nihil Credo]

Now, I'm not a legacy metagame expert, but it seems like some of the cards from your TSP list are suspect. Children of Korlis? Magus of the Tabernacle? Plague Sliver, Sinew Sliver, Rough/Tumble and Smallpox? I'm not entirely sure on these.

Children of Korlis was the basis for Vroman's deck from the Legacy championships. Magus of the Tabernacle considerably boosted White Stax. Sinew Sliver made Countersliver a good deck again. Smallpox has become a common feature of Deadguy Ale-ish decks.

Rough/Tumble is practically Pyroclasm with a minor drawback and a minor advantage (IMO, I think in this meta people should play R/T over Clasm). Pyroclasm is a Legacy staple, isn't it?

Plague Sliver was probably a mistake to add, yeah. I made that list quickly.


Now, it is entirely possible that I'm undervaluing the impact of TSP because of all the reprints and "planeshifts"-- but a card in a different color is a different card.

It sounds like you missed a "not" there... either way, I think they are different. Damnation enabled Duck Hunt (UB Landstill) to emerge, and SSG made a nice companion to its Alliances cousin.


If we're talking about staples and I go with your list, Rav had Helix, Remand, Confidant, Leyline, Infernal Tutor, Grave-Troll, Loam, Stinkweed Imp, Darkblast, and Snare. I'm not counting Protean Hulk, but you can't deny the importance of that card.

I'm not talking about fringe cards that work in one tier 2 deck somewhere. There are more of those from TSP at the moment because that's the most recent block-- the Ravnica fringe cards have already been tried and discarded. When Lorwyn comes about, you'll see the exact same thing happen. But if you look at staple cards that persist across decks and see consistent high-level play and high-level success, Time Spiral comes up short compared to Ravnica.

If you don't believe me, look here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/bd295a

I actually went out of my way to include Ravnica fringe cards (Castigate? Trygon Predator?). And I strongly disagree with Helix, Darkblast and Remand being format staples (what plays them?), and even Spell Snare is questionable (damn fine card, but very metagamish).

Anyway, I'm not as concerned about getting new staples as about getting playable cards. IMO, it's having a lot of different options that makes deckbuilding (and playing) fun and profitable, not having a couple of cards that become mandatory 4-ofs.

[Ridiculous Hat]

Nope, I did not miss a "but". I do not intend to try and weaken your position with the inaccurate stance of "same text = same card". If it's in a different color, it has different possibilities, even in this format of fetchlands and duals.

I just think that if you want back one year in time and looked at the decks, you'd see just as much experimentation with Ravnica fringe cards then as you do with Time Spiral now. And I think that in one year's time, we'll see a lot of Lorwyn cards floating around in decks, but significantly less by way of Time Spiral.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

It doesn't matter if Ravnica has less Legacy staples than Time Spiral, because Ravnica brought us an entirely new deck type. LftL is a Godly card.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Lol Yes and all other dredgers!

[TheAardvark]

I actually went out of my way to include Ravnica fringe cards (Castigate? Trygon Predator?). And I strongly disagree with Helix, Darkblast and Remand being format staples (what plays them?), and even Spell Snare is questionable (damn fine card, but very metagamish).


I suppose Spell Snare is "metagamish": if people in your metagame play Threshold, or anything else with Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Counterbalance, Standstill, Life from the Loam (yes, countering it is sometimes correct, just not often), Counterspell, Infernal Tutor, Hymn to Tourach, Smother, Jotun Grunt, Umezawa's Jitte, Burning Wish, Pyroclasm, Goblin Piledriver, Meddling Mage, Fire/Ice, Cephalid Illusionist, Survival of the Fittest, Chalice of the Void (@1), Engineered Explosives (@2), Nantuko Shade, Sinkhole, Serra Avenger, Sphere of Resistance, Sylvan Library, Quirion Dryad, Arcbound Ravager, Smallpox, Silver Knight, or Diabolic Edict, Spell Snare *might* be worthwhile.

[Nihil Credo]

Heh, you're right :) It sucks against Goblins and kicks ass against everything else, I'll agree it can be considered a staple card.

[Phantom]

Heh, you're right :) It sucks against Goblins and kicks ass against everything else, I'll agree it can be considered a staple card.

It's not even that bad against Goblins as it stops two of their best assuming they don't drop Vial or connect with Lackey (and running Daze/Fow/Goose/Goyf/StP/etc will help that). Also, even if they drop a Vial, Hooligan can't pull off his nonsense without being hardcast so the card can at least protect your Needles or Explosives.

Overall, while the card isn't great vs. Goblins, it certainly isn't dead, and is much better than Duress in the matchup (and Duress saw a ton of maindeck play).




Back on topic, I love this card. The loss of life is frankly laughable, unless you are running a bunch of other life loss cards like Zombies. The added versatility is just amazing. Also, the fact that you can splash black and run up to eight quality discard spells, with four more coming out of the board, is insane. This set really seems to hate combo.

[outsideangel]

Obviously, it's just a (possibly the only) counterexample to "it's awesome against every deck ever".

Hyperbole much?

It's poor against Ichorid too, but that doesn't stop it from being retardedly powerful.

[Illissius]

What? Which part is hyperbole? As far as I can tell, we're agreeing completely. "It's amazing against everything, (except 43lands and Ichorid, but so what)".

[Tacosnape]

I noticed some Hymn versus Thoughtseize discussion going on.

Hymn is stronger in a dedicated control deck where you want the wrecking power and the card advantage and don't want the lifeloss.

Thoughtseize is -usually- stronger in an aggro or combo deck because the life is less relevant than it would be if you were playing a control deck, it has stronger disruptive powers in that it can hit any card in their hand except a land, and that it costs 1, where in aggro, combo, or even aggro-control all your power cards cost 2, be it Tarmogoyf, Shade, Confidant, Survival, or whatever.

The only time Hymn might be the stronger choice is if land destruction is a large part of your plan, as Hymn is one of the only discard spells that with a little luck is capable of wrecking the opponent's manabase. That, or if you somehow have a black-based aggro or combo deck that doesn't have a lot of cards to play with converted mana cost 2, which is mindboggling to contemplate.

[Nihil Credo]

I think a dedicated control deck may favour Thoughtseize too.
Hymn, in my experience, is rarely so considerate as to take out two threats: it will often hit stuff like land, Daze, creature removal... cards that for the most part you don't really care about. It only really shines against decks with tons of threats (Goblins, burn) or tons of counters (...MUC? Can't think of a deck that runs more than 12).

For a few months now, I have been playing Castigate over Hymn in most control and midrange decks. While the RFG effect is part of the reason for it, and Thoughtseize's life loss is not to be ignored, I think this new Duress should similarly prove superior to Hymn in most circumstances.

[TheAardvark]

I think a dedicated control deck may favour Thoughtseize too.
Hymn, in my experience, is rarely so considerate as to take out two threats: it will often hit stuff like land, Daze, creature removal... cards that for the most part you don't really care about. It only really shines against decks with tons of threats (Goblins, burn) or tons of counters (...MUC? Can't think of a deck that runs more than 12).

For a few months now, I have been playing Castigate over Hymn in most control and midrange decks. While the RFG effect is part of the reason for it, and Thoughtseize's life loss is not to be ignored, I think this new Duress should similarly prove superior to Hymn in most circumstances.

I tend to agree. I know my previous statements weren't very clear, but Thoughtseize *is* a very, very good card, and is better than Hymn probably 90% of the time. Similarly to Nihil, I have been playing Castigate in lieu of Hymn via sideboarding and now maindeck in Truffle Shuffle for a while, as it just takes care of the most damaging card my opponent has permanently (well, barring a Wish), which is usually better than 2 random cards. Thoughtseize, for aggro/aggro control decks, is better than either, typically, and is a great compliment to Duress.

I think we're all in agreement that the card is balls awesome.

[Cait_Sith]

Better than Hymn 90% of the time? Hymn generates card advantage AND can attack their mana base. Thoughtseize cannot do either and takes a slice out of your life.

[from Cairo]

Assuming you're playing a deck that can play Hymn you probably have other forms of disruption to capitalize on it. For instance if you Ritual Hymn + w/e and they lose two lands, but make a land drop and you can follow it with Sinkhole or Wasteland that's huge.

The fact that they lose two cards from hand is really worth more credit than people seem to be giving it. In a format with Brainstorms and what not, even losing "irrelevant cards" is going to mean less ways to manipulate card quality. If you steal a Daze and a land, even if you didn't care about Daze it still means one less blue card they can pitch to Force of Will.

[mikekelley]

I think we are a tad overrating Thoughtseize right now. I have a feeling that it is akin to Extirpate when PC was coming out. It will be hugely popular around release time, and then the hype will fade.

Like Extirpate, it will have it's place in some decks, but not all, and like Extirpate, people will love it or point out it's flaws.

[Volt]

I think we are a tad overrating Thoughtseize right now. I have a feeling that it is akin to Extirpate when PC was coming out. It will be hugely popular around release time, and then the hype will fade.

Like Extirpate, it will have it's place in some decks, but not all, and like Extirpate, people will love it or point out it's flaws.

Thoughtseize <> Extirpate.

Duress = amazing

Thoughtseize = Duress + 1

Do the math.

[mikekelley]

Like Duress is nearly dead against goblins, Seize is a terrible Duress against combo.

It is not strictly Duress +1.

They both have strong and weak points.

Edit: Non-breakfast combo.

[DeathwingZERO]

2 life is not a huge problem in this format, I don't see what's going on. Everyone keeps saying that this thing sucks against combo, yet every combo deck that's doing good is putting you from 20-0 in a turn, 2 at most with EtW. Tell me how 2 life is not worth possibly crippling that first turn play?

This card is a functional Duress + Ostracize, I'm not seeing how it's on par with Duress in any way. You can't possibly ever whiff, the 2 life is a marginal loss with any deck packing a suicide or even splash-black control aspect, and it's very, very easily SB potential with decks already packing Duress + Hymn, to come in when Duress isn't good. Pretty much if you aren't packing FoW or huge amounts of Fetchlands, one or two of these is the same amount of life on average per game.

No, this card isn't absolute ape-shit amazing, but it's well worth the rare slot, and unlike Extirpate isn't situational to be a great play. It's already been established Duress should have been a rare anyways, as it's easily the best overall discard spell pre-Thoughtseize.

[TheAardvark]

I've played Hymn to Tourach an awful lot, and for the past year or so it has been pretty underwhelming. The random "oh, I got 2 lands and manascrewed you" incidents are rare, and it doesn't necessarily get what you need to get. Card advantage-wise, yes, it's great, but as someone who has bumped it out of decks in favor of other choices (Castigate in Truffle Shuffle, for instance) , it's not always very good.

Now, I am not trying to say that Thoughtseize is great all the time, but it's certainly very good, and better than Duress in and against some decks.

Just saying.

[Iranon]

Besides being a good card in its own right, this makes Cabal Therapy and Extract less unwieldy. In decks lacking mana denial, the full 1-mana discard suite might be preferable to Hymn to Tourach now.

If this pushes Extract into being maindeck material, some decks will have to take notice (Cephalid Breakfast for example)

[Fred Bear]

This managed a pre-sale price of $16 (the chase rare of the set) over at Starcity! I'm going to assume that it's usefulness in Standard and Extended is going to keep that price tag up for a couple years at least.

[Nihil Credo]

This card's price will only go down once it gets reprinted in three core sets, released as a FNM foil, mailed as a Player Reward, reprinted as the prerelease card of all the 2011 expansions, and sticked to the side of milk cartons.

[Wallace]

So it has begun!!! Check this out...

http://toys.search.ebay.com/thoughtseize_Magic-the-Gathering_W0QQcatrefZC6QQcoactionZcompareQQcoentrypageZsearchQQcopagenumZ1QQfclZ3QQfromZR2QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQftrtZ1QQftrvZ1QQsabfmtsZ1QQsacatZ19107QQsaobfmtsZinsifQQsbrsrtZd

[Versus]

It could be hype, but lemme tell ya the entire pre-release had a fucking huge hard on for these.

I got lucky scoring 2 from the dealer there at $15 a piece. He took 1 Sliver Queen, 2 Goblin Welders, 1 Pact of Negation, and like 4 other rares I'll never use from my binder in trade.

Whether or not they prove their worth in legacy I guess remains to be seen, but since I'm pretty much stuck playing Type 2 at the moment I know how worthy they will be there.

[Atwa]

I got my playset online, over Gaddok Teeg, which I was planning on buying first.

I wanted to try out Teeg in the sideboard of my Goyfcontrol deck, but I figured Thoughtsize was maindeck material, so I chose the latter.

I got them at $60 for a playset, which is decent I guess. I could have traded some other cards for it,but I am just lazy :)

[Jak]

I am waiting till these prices drop. I know they will, but people want to get them now because they didn't with goyf.

[Lego]

You can't possibly ever whiff

It's theoretically possible against Lands, especially turn two when they've already dropped Exploration, and have nothing but lands left.

[MattH]

Besides being a good card in its own right, this makes Cabal Therapy and Extract less unwieldy. In decks lacking mana denial, the full 1-mana discard suite might be preferable to Hymn to Tourach now.

If this pushes Extract into being maindeck material, some decks will have to take notice (Cephalid Breakfast for example)

Do you mean Extirpate? Otherwise I can't follow you.

[troopatroop]

It doesn't matter if Ravnica has less Legacy staples than Time Spiral, because Ravnica brought us an entirely new deck type. LftL is a Godly card.

Um. Okay. Lftl created a new deck, but Bridge From Below, Narcomeoba, and Dread Return did too. Two decks actually, and they're putting up way more results than Loam.

[ClearSkies]

Um. Okay. Lftl created a new deck, but Bridge From Below, Narcomeoba, and Dread Return did too. Two decks actually, and they're putting up way more results than Loam.

Didn't Ravnica also bring in Dark Confidents and Leyline of the Void? Both seen in many decks and sideboards?

As for the Thoughtseize itself, I don't think it will go down anytime soon. Popular stuff in Standards have ridicious high prices.

[sammiel]

Loam created an 'archetype' whereas Narcomeoba has created broken combo decks.

Breakfast and Ichorid combo are definitely broken, the test of time will reveal whether or not they are good for legacy. As far as loam goes, it's the second best card drawing spell in the format behind standstill, I imagine it just needs time and development to really emerge.

[DeathwingZERO]

It's theoretically possible against Lands, especially turn two when they've already dropped Exploration, and have nothing but lands left.

I was going to write that in, but figured it was far too obvious, and I'm NEVER going to see 43Land.dec in any competitive way in the NW, and I'm fairly sure it's results are less than stellar to call it a deck you'd see regularly.

As far as Hymn goes, I don't care if it's potential card advantage, black NEVER cared about card advantage post Necro-banning. Here's a little rundown:

Thoughtseize:
2 life loss. Can't hit a land.
1 for 1 trade

Hymn to Tourach:
2CC- core black
CAN'T SEE HAND (this is absolutely CRUCIAL in Legacy, don't even try to deny it)
Two random cards
2 for 1 trade

Hm, I'm pretty damn sure I know which is better, by far. Just KNOWING what your opponent has is worth a -1 card advantage, in every single aspect of Legacy. There's no way I'd ever play Hymn over Thoughtseize if given the choice of having one or the other. Oh, and since the validity of both claims I'm assuming is based on the first few turns, let's also take into effect that the turn 1 Hymn + Duress/whatever play REQUIRES Dark Ritual, which now means your card advantage is nill. And anything post turn 4 makes Hymn strictly worse than Thoughtseize in nearly all aspects.

On top of it, Hymn doesn't make Therapy better. This does. Not only is your potential to not whiff with Thoughtseize high, you can potentially create card advantage with Cabal Therapy after it if their holding multiples of anything in hand.

So to be fair, saying that you potentially can cripple someone's early plays with Hymn based on card advantage and random factor alone vs Thoughtseize actually being able to combo in with other discard spells to potentially Mind-Twist your opponent's hand to only lands is a pretty pathetic argument.

EDIT: And please, stop comparing this card to Extirpate. They serve COMPLETELY different functions, Extirpate being FAR more situational than a discard spell. This card will not drop in 3 months like Extirpate did, and is SOLID maindeck material in black based control/aggro control. Extirpate never was, even though I personally argue it's still a very, very solid SB card.

[Happy Gilmore]

I was going to write that in, but figured it was far too obvious, and I'm NEVER going to see 43Land.dec in any competitive way in the NW, and I'm fairly sure it's results are less than stellar to call it a deck you'd see regularly.

As far as Hymn goes, I don't care if it's potential card advantage, black NEVER cared about card advantage post Necro-banning. Here's a little rundown:

Thoughtseize:
2 life loss. Can't hit a land.
1 for 1 trade

Hymn to Tourach:
2CC- core black
CAN'T SEE HAND (this is absolutely CRUCIAL in Legacy, don't even try to deny it)
Two random cards
2 for 1 trade

Hm, I'm pretty damn sure I know which is better, by far. Just KNOWING what your opponent has is worth a -1 card advantage, in every single aspect of Legacy. There's no way I'd ever play Hymn over Thoughtseize if given the choice of having one or the other. Oh, and since the validity of both claims I'm assuming is based on the first few turns, let's also take into effect that the turn 1 Hymn + Duress/whatever play REQUIRES Dark Ritual, which now means your card advantage is nill. And anything post turn 4 makes Hymn strictly worse than Thoughtseize in nearly all aspects.

On top of it, Hymn doesn't make Therapy better. This does. Not only is your potential to not whiff with Thoughtseize high, you can potentially create card advantage with Cabal Therapy after it if their holding multiples of anything in hand.

So to be fair, saying that you potentially can cripple someone's early plays with Hymn based on card advantage and random factor alone vs Thoughtseize actually being able to combo in with other discard spells to potentially Mind-Twist your opponent's hand to only lands is a pretty pathetic argument.

EDIT: And please, stop comparing this card to Extirpate. They serve COMPLETELY different functions, Extirpate being FAR more situational than a discard spell. This card will not drop in 3 months like Extirpate did, and is SOLID maindeck material in black based control/aggro control. Extirpate never was, even though I personally argue it's still a very, very solid SB card.

Hymn to Torach and Thoughtseize are not comparable in the slightest.

[Versus]

And it's not really comparable to Extirpate either. What it is comparable to are Distress and Coercion which I think we can all agree suck a million asses in comparison.

[Jak]

Well, to be fair, we are not going to be deciding between Thoughtseize and Coercion. I wouldn't call it comparing them, more deciding what to play. Like would you want to play Hymn or Thought in Red Death?

[TrialByFire]

Well, to be fair, we are not going to be deciding between Thoughtseize and Coercion. I wouldn't call it comparing them, more deciding what to play. Like would you want to play Hymn or Thought in Red Death?

Which the answer I think would still be Hymn, as they run mana denial also to complement it much more. Plus they already run Duress

[DragoFireheart]

Comparing Thoughtsize to Hymn is like comparing Lightning Bolt to Fire Blast: both, while appearing similar, have huge difference and are used in different applications.

[Tacosnape]

Technically, you can compare any card to any other card, it's just that the conclusions you draw aren't always terribly relevant. Swords to Plowshares is, after all, strictly a functionally superior card to Ancestral Recall in a white deck with absolutely no blue sources.*

I think it's safe to say that Thoughtseize will either replace or go alongside Hymn to Tourach or goes alongside it in Sui Black variants. Hymn's biggest drawback is having converted mana cost 2, a CMC shared by anywhere from half to all of any sui-black variant's creature base. Things that cost 1 and kick ass are good here.

However, if you look at decks like Train Wreck or Truffle Shuffle or any black-based control build (Maybe or maybe not including Pox, there's a billion factors to try to calculate here and I'm tired), Hymn is a superior card to Thoughtseize. The life difference and card advantage are both more important in a deck that's playing a longer game, and such control decks don't typically worry about what cards you're holding. If the Hymn doesn't get it, Pernicious Deed or an Edict or a Vindicate or something similar will.

It's also worth noting that since Control tries to play the game at its own pace, there isn't as much pressure to play aggressive threats in the 2 CMC slot whereas Black aggro-control decks do. The reason for this is that the longer a game goes, the more of a losing strategy discard becomes. This is why decks that run Discard successfully generally have a power plan in the 2-CMC to 3-CMC range (Survival, Deed, a game-winning combo, or whatever.)

It's important to always keep in mind that discard itself is a losing strategy, though when paired with a solid strategy it can make that strategy much stronger. In addition to this, the later you get into the game, the weaker discard is. Not to mention, Discard can't stop anything the opponent can do on their first turn. All of these are reasons why for the most part blue-based aggro-control decks have been and always will be more successful than black-based aggro-control decks.



(*Unless, you know, that white deck also runs Force of Will and you need to pitch Ancestral Recall to it. Or some shit like that.)

[Versus]

I got a real dumb question that just occured to me. Is paying the 2 life considered an "additional cost" to playing the spell?


Target player reveals his or her hand. Choose a nonland card from it. That player discards that card.
You lose 2 life.


Does that mean if I look and don't want to choose a card I will not lose the life? I know it doesn't I guess, just wanted to be sure. In otherwords Snuff Out for instance makes you pay the life to play the spell. If it fizzles you still pay the life. Would that happen here as well when say your opponent only has one card in hand and it happens to be land?

[Cait_Sith]

It means you lose the life as part of the spell's resolution. Additional cost means you lose it as part of the announcement. Also, since you lose the life as part of the resolution and not part of the cost, you can play Thoughtseize even if you have less than 2 life available.

[Versus]

So Thoughtseize will NOT resolve if I choose not to take the card or if the only card(s) in opponentss hand are land?

[Cait_Sith]

So Thoughtseize will NOT resolve if I choose not to take the card or if the only card(s) in opponentss hand are land?

No. You don't look at your opponents hand until it starts resolving. If your opponent has a 5 card hand of 5 lands, you WILL lose the two life.

[Versus]

Oh alright. For a minute there I thought it got a whole lot better than it already is! Thanks.

[DeathwingZERO]

As long as the spell resolves, you lose 2 life, regardless of what it hits. If it's countered, you won't lose 2 life. I'm liking the more recent spells being worded like this, as it's really easy to remember how they work.