[Brainstorming] Izzet Really?

[WiLdFiRe]

I was checking out TMD.com today, and people have been posting about a combo deck on there that uses Izzet Guildmage + Reset to create infinite mana then uses that mana for all kinds of broken stuff. Is this something that's viable in Legacy, and has anyone tested a similar deck out before?

[Pinder]

I was checking out TMD.com today, and people have been posting about a combo deck on there that uses Izzet Guildmage + Reset to create infinite mana then uses that mana for all kinds of broken stuff. Is this something that's viable in Legacy, and has anyone tested a similar deck out before?

I think there's already a deck that uses reset to create arbitrarily large amounts of mana and do mean nasty things to the stack with it. Maybe you've heard of it? (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=617)

[WiLdFiRe]

It's a fair comment, but Izzet Guildmage gives the deck a dimension it otherwise might not have - it can play the control role by copying it's draw and counterspells until it can assure a win by generating infinite mana and then infinite storm with Cunning Wish -> Wish -> Wish etc. into Brainfreeze. What I'm getting at is that this deck would be more a control deck with a combo deck than a dedicated combo deck.

[Nihil Credo]

Relying on Izzet Guildmage in a format that is filled with creature removal doesn't seem a smart plan.

Maybe you could fit the Guildmage and Cunning Wish into a sort of Big Fish deck, with Mother of Runes, Vedalken Shackles and the like.

[Eldariel]

Perhaps Reset on the Wishboard with Cunning taking it if you feel like generating infinite mana. I agree that WUR Fish could indeed utilize something like this, although whether it'd be better with or without the combo is unclear. Still, those are the colours you'll want, and probably Vial since Izzet Guildmage can dominate the stack rather effectively should he resolve. Might be the deck should play enough instants/sorceries to utilize Izzet outside the combo itself. Fire/Ice and StP are natural starting points, but after that it gets more uncharted (Daze is rarely worth copying and Force can't be)

[Happy Gilmore]

its an interesting idea, and you don't need cunning wish to win. 5 mana, reset, guildmage, and Predict can deck them, untill you find either Fire/ice or something along those lines.

can you link to the deck?

[WiLdFiRe]

Link to the deck: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=34554.0
To be honest, I don't know how relevant to the legacy version that deck will be - it's based around a format with a lot less creature kill that has a lot more broken stuff to copy.

[outsideangel]

This is a 7-mana, 3-card combo, vulnerable to creature kill.

Seems strickly worse than, say, the Time Vault combo, which is less vulnerable and uses fewer cards, or the Breakfast combo, which costs less and uses fewer cards.

[iOWN]

I was toying with that combo when I first joined the Source, but I guess the thread has been archived or something.

If I remember correctly, you can copy any cantrip to draw your library, then copy a burn spell for infinite damage. Predict would work too, but because you have to combo on your opponent's turn, they could kill you before they would need to draw. My list used Muddle the Mixture to transmute for Fire/Ice, Reset or Izzet Guildmage, and played Tangle Wire with Chain of Vapor (doubled as Izzetman protection and Tangle Wire bounce) and Rishadan Port to stall until turn five. Then again, it wasn't very good.

[Eldariel]

its an interesting idea, and you don't need cunning wish to win. 5 mana, reset, guildmage, and Predict can deck them, untill you find either Fire/ice or something along those lines.

What I meant was that playing Cunning Wish would allow you to sidestep the need for cards you won't really use outside the combo in the MD. That'd make it more of a sideplan, but a rather compact one at that.

[WiLdFiRe]

To me, the combo would be better in a heavy control shell than anything else. Guildmage has a lot of synergy in a control deck and also doubles as a win condition.

[Happy Gilmore]

To me, the combo would be better in a heavy control shell than anything else. Guildmage has a lot of synergy in a control deck and also doubles as a win condition.


mystical tutor, counterbalance, a list is coming together....but I would really like to see the original concept.

[WiLdFiRe]

I already have a deck idea - I'll post it up soon.
EDIT: This is a deck I've been pushing for a while, it's really solid. If you have a lot of UGW Thresh in your meta, you can bump up the Dread count.
13 Island
1 Tundra/Underground Sea
8 Fetch
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Predict
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Back to Basics
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
2 Mystical Tutor
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Trinket Mage
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle

Sideboard: (Transformational)
4 Izzet Guildmage
2 Reset
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Brain Freeze
2 Cunning Wish
4 Vedalken Shackles
1 Pithing Needle

The idea is you stomp them G1, then when they SB in their artifact/attack hate G2, you go:
-2 Dreadnought
-4 Stifle
-1 Trickbind
-1 B2B/Trinket Mage
+4 Izzet Guildmage
+2 Cunning Wish
+1 Mystical Tutor
+1 Reset
In all seriousness, I haven't found a deck that has a really good matchup against the dreadnought deck - The combo of CounterTop/Trinket Mage toolbox/Fast clock is really solid. However, it's really vulnerable to Krosan Grip which Guildmage is really solid against.

[emidln]

When I first saw the Izzet deck I worked on a legacy port. I ended up cutting Izzet Guildmage for Reiterate because Reiterate wasn't nearly as vulnerable to hate and could also be found via Cunning Wish. Incidentally, it also made an end-the-game Gifts pile much eaiser, although the Gifts variant ended up being about a turn and a half too slow. I'll dig up the list and edit in my post.

[Happy Gilmore]

When I first saw the Izzet deck I worked on a legacy port. I ended up cutting Izzet Guildmage for Reiterate because Reiterate wasn't nearly as vulnerable to hate and could also be found via Cunning Wish. Incidentally, it also made an end-the-game Gifts pile much eaiser, although the Gifts variant ended up being about a turn and a half too slow. I'll dig up the list and edit in my post.

That costs 8 mana just to get started. Not to mention that this deck concept is so so much more expensive than Cephalid Breakfast. You need 7 mana to get it going.

4 Izzet Guildmage

4 Force of Will
4 Fire/Ice
1 Echoing Truth
3 Predict
2 Reset
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Mystical Tutor
3 Sensei’s Diving Top
3 Disrupting Shoal
4 Counterbalance

6 Islands
4 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea

lol, Niv-mizzet the firemind + curiosity would be a cheeper combo.

[emidln]

That costs 8 mana just to get started. Not to mention that this deck concept is so so much more expensive than Cephalid Breakfast. You need 7 mana to get it going.

You obviously don't understand the implications of an all-instant speed two card combo. This lets you play a deck that is extremely similar in style to MUC and win when it suits you.

Now, this two card combo does require a draw spell or a tutor to actually win the game, but it's not terrible hard to cast brainstorm and reiterate it until you get whatever you want. Alternately, since the combo happens on your opponent's turn, you could just Reiterate one of their spells. In a deck packed full of draw and counters, it shouldn't be too difficult to just draw your deck when you have infinite mana until you find another Cunning Wish that you can reiterate a few times to get a brain freeze + draw spell.

Izzet Guildmage/Reset is only slightly less vulnerable than Cephalid Breakfast. In fact, it might be as vulernable since it trades graveyard hate for small creature hate.

[WiLdFiRe]

Just throwing it out there - Could the Reiterate + Reset combo be thrown into a green mana acceleration shell? You could then use Early Harvest as well.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Izzet + Ancestral Vision = hawt.

Izzet is a card I've tinkered with. It seems like it has a lot of potential, but figuring out how to really exploit it is difficult. Burning Wish is another hot target.

[dahcmai]

I can see it working in Vintage, but Legacy is kind of a stretch. Be rough to play around the mass amount of creature kill. It's definitely one to keep in mind though.

[outsideangel]

I actually like the reiterate idea better, simply because it doesn't die to all the creature kill in legacy. Any deck where you have to pass the turn and hope your dude survives is going to have some serious problems in this format.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Reiterate costs more mana. And neither Izzet nor the things he copies have to be dead on their own.

[emidln]

Reiterate costs more mana. And neither Izzet nor the things he copies have to be dead on their own.

Except Reset if you actually want to combo out. Reiterate costs exactly 1 more mana, isn't vulnerable to STP, Smother, Fire/Ice, Lightning Bolt, Gempalm Incinerator, Spell Snare, Pithing Needle, etc, etc. Reiterate doesn't even to be main. It would be feasible to have it in a Cunning Wishboard. What's really interesting is that if there is a random copy main with 3-4 Cunning Wish, it's possible to have a wishboard that looks something like this (not necessary, but possible):

Brain Freeze
random draw spell
Reiterate
Reset
High Tide

High tide would let you go off with 3 red sources (4-5 lands). Now, this is similar in function to solidarity except a lot more compact. You've reduced Solidarity down to 5-6 maindeck cards, 3-4 of which are useful in their own right, one of which is randomly useful in its own right (Reiterate's copying ability comes up in the course of play). By cutting the combo down this much, you can play a lot more control cards than solidarity can, becoming a true control deck with a combo finish.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

It's exactly 1 more mana for the first spell you copy. The second spell you copy and every spell after is 3 mana more expensive.

I don't see how making Solidarity's combo pieces more expensive is fixing the problems with Solidarity, by the by.

[emidln]

It's exactly 1 more mana for the first spell you copy. The second spell you copy and every spell after is 3 mana more expensive.

I don't see how making Solidarity's combo pieces more expensive is fixing the problems with Solidarity, by the by.

1) This combo is not luck dependent. You don't have to see cards in increments of four and pray to that you hit the right mix

2) This deck wouldn't be solidarity. It's the same kill mechanism without dedicating the deck to the combo. The aim is to play a control deck, likely with fire/ice, counterspell, fof, etc and simply win when you want to.

3) Costing 3 mana afterwards only means that you can't start your combo off rituals. This isn't that big of a deal, especially if you're trying to play a control-combo deck. Actually, the way the combo works, you need to produce at least seven mana from each reiterate copy to go infinite. Reiterate itself costs 4RR each time. The thing is that if you have eight or more lands (or four lands and a high tide, etc, etc) in play, paying 4RR after you generate 6RR isn't so bad.

[Ewokslayer]

...You've reduced Solidarity down to 5-6 maindeck cards, 3-4 of which are useful in their own right, one of which is randomly useful in its own right (Reiterate's copying ability comes up in the course of play).

How are High Tide, Reset, and Brain Freeze useful in their own right?

Reiterate was tried in Solidarity, but the problem with it was basically Wasteland is bad for decks that need to generate lots of mana in order to win the game.


2) This deck wouldn't be solidarity. It's the same kill mechanism without dedicating the deck to the combo. The aim is to play a control deck, likely with fire/ice, counterspell, fof, etc and simply win when you want to.
Except you can't win when you want to since you have to put together various cards that suck on their own that will stay dead in your hand until you draw the other card that let you "win when you want to." but that can't reasonably be before turn 4-5.

[emidln]

How are High Tide, Reset, and Brain Freeze useful in their own right?

High Tide and Brain Freeze don't need to be maindecked. Reset probably does. High Tide isn't even necessary in a control shell, it would just allow you to combo with fewer than 7 lands in play.


Reiterate was tried in Solidarity, but the problem with it was basically Wasteland is bad for decks that need to generate lots of mana in order to win the game.

Why can't you play a Landstill shell instead of a Solidarity shell and aim to combo win on turn 10 or turn 20 instead of on turn 4-5? If you have control of the game, then you can win however you want. This would simply take fewer slots than manlands + crucible while giving you access to a small Cunning Wish board.



Except you can't win when you want to since you have to put together various cards that suck on their own that will stay dead in your hand until you draw the other card that let you "win when you want to." but that can't reasonably be before turn 4-5.

Why does a control deck need to win before turn 4-5? It doesn't. Maintaining control of the game is what the deck wants to do. This would just be a way of ending it faster than beating with 2/2s for 10 turns.

[Brehn]

This looks like an interesting idea, but what kind of control shell do you want to play? Only relying on counters does not seem enough to actually control a game, so let's have a look into MUC lists:

Back to Basics --- sucks with Reiterate, could be used in a Guildmage list, but then again, creature removal...
Powder Keg, Engineered Explosives, Nevinyrral's Disk --- clear the board, but do so slowly.
Threads of Disloyalty, Counter Magic, Vedalken Shackles --- alternative win condition, but don't synergize with the combo.

MUC runs all of them + they only devote 2 or 3 slots to their actual win condition (Morphling, Meloku etc). With a combo finish you will have to devote more slots to it so you lose some tools you desperately need against aggro. How can this be good? A similar issue goes for a Landstill-like attempt: If you drop Standstill, you don't want to break it so you would need a good board position. This requires manlands (dissynergy with Reset) so you won't be far away from an actual Landstill list. The question you have to ask yourself is not, if the combo would work in a Landstill/MUC shell, but if a Landstill/MUC deck actually improves by getting a combo finish and - well, I don't think so.

[Ewokslayer]

Why can't you play a Landstill shell instead of a Solidarity shell and aim to combo win on turn 10 or turn 20 instead of on turn 4-5? If you have control of the game, then you can win however you want. This would simply take fewer slots than manlands + crucible while giving you access to a small Cunning Wish board.
How is a deck based around a Landstill or MUC shell realistically going to control the board for 20 turns? Manlands take up land slots, Reset/Reiterate take up spell slots. The second are much more valuable.
Also Reset will be dead with out the Reiterate and enough land. The Manlands will never be dead.



Why does a control deck need to win before turn 4-5? It doesn't. Maintaining control of the game is what the deck wants to do. This would just be a way of ending it faster than beating with 2/2s for 10 turns.
A control deck doesn't need to win that early but a deck that can "win when you want to" should be able to actually do so in a reasonable amount of time.
Not it can win around turn 10 if its manabase isn't disrupted, its hand isn't disrupted, and it hasn't lost yet.