[Card Discussion] Crypt vs. Leyline in Nonblack

[Tacosnape]

So after spending the last 45 minutes messing around with my Goblins lists while watching Jeeves and Wooster, a thought began creeping through my mind.

Is Tormod's Crypt even playable anymore?

Specifically, even in decks that aren't packing the slightest bit of black, is there anything Tormod's Crypt can do that Leyline of the Void can't do better?

Leyline of the Void is stronger against almost every relevant deck, from Threshold to Ichorid to Cephalid Breffix to what have you. It's uncounterable, It's guaranteed to be faster than everything from now until the end of time (Unless someone makes a Legacy deck that kills during the Leyline step, in which case I quit.)

The drawbacks, of course, are there. First, the Leyline's completely useless if it isn't in your opening hand. The second drawback is that Crypt is much stronger against bounce. Third, it's also an enchantment, which could become relevant if the format experiences some sort of hate shift.

It's also possible that the difference could be how much draw a deck has. A deck with a high cantrip count like Threshold might be better off with Crypt, whereas a nonblack Goblin deck might be better off with Leyline.

Thoughts?

[DragoFireheart]

Yes, it is true that Leyline can be countered. However without it in your starting hand it's a dead draw and can cause you problems if you attempt to Mull until you get it.

Crypt on the other hand doesn't have to be played as soon as you draw it, can be used in response to something trying to destroy it and is never a dead draw. It's also going to feed your Goyf. Down side is that while it may stall thresh decks and the like, anyone else using Goyf will benifit from it and it can still be countered or even Stifled.

If I had to choose, I would choose Crypt as it will never be a dead draw even if it isn't in your opening hand. I think a good strat would be to try and stall the combo played you are trying to use Crypt on until to can draw into a Crypt.

Do you have any comments on Leyline of the Voids little brother, Planar Void?

[Tacosnape]

Yes, it is true that Leyline can be countered. However without it in your starting hand it's a dead draw and can cause you problems if you attempt to Mull until you get it.

Crypt on the other hand doesn't have to be played as soon as you draw it, can be used in response to something trying to destroy it and is never a dead draw. It's also going to feed your Goyf. Down side is that while it may stall thresh decks and the like, anyone else using Goyf will benifit from it and it can still be countered or even Stifled.

Let's consider this, though. Postboard against Ichorid, for example, wouldn't you be pretty likely to mulligan a hand that didn't have a graveyard hater in it anyway? Therefore, is it that much more unreasonable?



Do you have any comments on Leyline of the Voids little brother, Planar Void?

No. Well, I lied. Planar Void is a great card for any black deck that doesn't need its graveyard, and if I were running R/B Goblins I would be running Planar Void. However, Planar Void requires black to play. Crypt doesn't, and despite benefitting from it, neither does Leyline. Ichorid, for example, runs Leyline knowing there's no way in hell it's ever going to hardcast it.

However, the nature of this discussion regards decks that don't pack black, including R/G Goblins should I decide to keep it that way. This is mostly a question of if there's a reason to play Crypt over Leyline, ever, and if so, when?

[Phantom]

I'm glad someone posted about Leyline. I have been meaning to for a while, but I could never word the post right (I probably didn't have the right mix of knowledge).

I think you're mostly right with some exceptions. Faerie Stompy, for example, would probably rather run Cyrpt than Leyline. Also, Leyline is sort of crappy with a high cantrip strategy like Thresh, which can board in say three Crypts and dig for them quickly. Dig is crappy when finding Leyline for obvious reasons.

So Leyline is pretty amazing in nonblack in the current meta.

I think the more interesting, or at least as interesting, debate is what yard to hate to run in black. Extirpate is the flavor of the month, but Planar Void is an under the radar gem, especially in the Goyf centric world we live in.

[Tacosnape]

To slightly overgeneralize for the black graveyard hate, I'd say Extirpate in Control, Planar in Aggro or Aggro-Control, Leyline in combo.

Your point on Faerie Stompy is valid due to ridiculous Trinket Mage synergy (Is Faerie Stompy even decent anymore?), and I suppose in random decks like Affinity or in any circumstance where it's heavily to your benefit to run artifacts, you'd also want the Crypts.

[Aggro_zombies]

You know what makes Leyline even better? Serum Powder. No joke.

[dahcmai]

Any non-black deck I have that uses Leyline, I use Serum Powder along with it. If there's a reason I want a leyline that early I want it at the start because I am going to have a really hard time otherwise. If I didn't I wouldn't be boarding them anyway. Serum Powder has worked out pretty well for me in any deck that usually would have an auto-lose to Ichorid/Thresh/other GY orientated deck. Just my opinion on it though.

[Nihil Credo]

I only use Tormod's Crypt over Leyline in decks with Trinket Mage.

[DragoFireheart]

Let's consider this, though. Postboard against Ichorid, for example, wouldn't you be pretty likely to mulligan a hand that didn't have a graveyard hater in it anyway? Therefore, is it that much more unreasonable?

I guess that would depend on the deck. If you have a buttload of searchs and cantrips you would want Crypt. If you're deck is a cantripless deck you'd want the Leyline right off the bat as there is a good chance you won't see it again.

Leyline is also the best choice Vs decks that can't bounce it or destroy is right away, while Crypt is better Vs decks that can answer artifacts and enchantments more easily.

It really does depend on the deck though. I wish Leyline was colorless and cost 0 mana though. :laugh:


No. Well, I lied. Planar Void is a great card for any black deck that doesn't need its graveyard, and if I were running R/B Goblins I would be running Planar Void. However, Planar Void requires black to play. Crypt doesn't, and despite benefitting from it, neither does Leyline. Ichorid, for example, runs Leyline knowing there's no way in hell it's ever going to hardcast it.

However, the nature of this discussion regards decks that don't pack black, including R/G Goblins should I decide to keep it that way. This is mostly a question of if there's a reason to play Crypt over Leyline, ever, and if so, when?

Like I said before it depends on the deck. Decks that can thin themselves out quickly and have the ability to find multiple hate-cards would better benifit from Crypt. Decks without lots of thinners would benifit more from Leyline as they may only see that Leyline the entire game.

[bigbear102]

I actually ran into this very decision the other day, and made a bad choice I believe. I was originally running Leyline MD in my survival build, thinking there would be lots of Breakfast and Ichorid, but cut it at the last minute due to a lack of those decks. I put it in my board though.

I never faced a graveyard dependant deck, but did run into Survival in the top 8, which I want gy hate for, but isn't absolutely necessary. I realized when boarding that 4 Leyline was just too much to put in, because it's dead if I draw it. I really wanted Crypt in that situation.

I think Leyline is the correct answer when you are hating on Breakfast and Ichorid alone, but as a general gy hater it just isn't up to par in non-black decks. I will probably be playing Crypt in the future, as I don't have to worry about mulling into it.