[Discussion] Planeswalkers in Legacy

[SuckerPunch]

Planeswalkers have extremely useful abilities that fit well into any control decks.

At the same time, they are very vulnerable to burn, evasive creatures and some of them have too high a casting cost. What if any sort of impact do you expect they will have on legacy?

Garruk seems like it could see play, perhaps in UG Threshold. I say this because it's the one Planeswalkers that can generate threats. At worst, it's a 3/3 for 4 mana AFTER your opponent used a burn spell to kill the planeswalker itself. That's not too bad.

The blue one is similar to Ophidian and may see some play.

The others seem like their casting cost is too high though. Even though Lilena Vess has some great abilities.

We will see five more each set. Do you think this could eventually make burn and evasive creatures a lot more popular?

[DragoFireheart]

I am really unsure of these Planeswalkers. They should be cheaper if they want to be able to be used in the Eternal formats. If all of the Planeswalkers cost one less colorless cc then maybe they would be useful.

The fact that they can get hit with just one lightning bolt and lose almost half of their life or just die outright is really discouraging. :frown:

At least they aren't over-powered like the Vanguard cards. :laugh:

[sammiel]

thats a lightning bolt that isnt hitting you for 3. all i know is, in my playtesting, the white one has been melting faces in standard, but i imagine all of them are just too slow for legacy. Especially since the effects are sorceries.

[Versus]

Yeah, yesterday at the pre-release I few of the people I talked to that pulled Ajani said he was just sick.

[Timmy, Power Gamer]

Here are my thoughts on the Planeswalkers:

1) Chandra and Liliana are simply too costly to see play. Five for a vampiric tutor or to burn out a creature is far too much, and while the big abilities are powerful effects, after paying 5 mana, you can’t afford to sit and wait for them.

2) Ajani and Garruk have a much better chance of being playable at 4cc. The likelihood of using Ajani for a 4cc Serra Avatar token seems unlikely to happen, so playing him toward that effect would be simply soaking up some damage. The second ability seems more enticing (at least after we learned that they were +1/+1 counters). It would be played primarily in a white weenie deck, but for 4cc, it would typically seem better to try and lock up the game with Armageddon or Cataclysm.

The best comparison to Garruk I can see is Call of the Herd. Against an aggro deck, Garruk will make a 3/3 and likely draw a bolt or be killed by attacking. In contrast, for 7 mana, CotH would leave you in the same situation (a 3/3 on the board and a bolt in the graveyard). Against control, CotH would possibly be preferable as it requires two counterspells/removal spells to deal with. However, if Garruk makes it on the table, he will be harder to deal with. While Garruk would most likely be churning out 3/3’s, the added flexibility is a point in his favor as well.

3) Jace seems to get the most discussion in control mirrors or in Stax. Against aggro, Jace seems unplayable. With only 3 counters, he is a 3cc sorcery speed cantrip that soaks up a burn spell. If you can protect Jace, why not protect a win condition instead? In control mirrors, he seems quite powerful, acting as a one-sided Howling Mine two thirds of the time. The best comparison that could be drawn would be Ophidian. The advantages of Jace are that he does not require attacking (and therefore is not stopped by a Factory) and replaces himself the turn he is played. Ophidian, however, does not give your opponent a card every third turn and can potentially be used as a win condition. The question I would have is whether he would be better than playing FoF (costs one more, but is an instant). My initial guess is no given that Ophidian has not been seeing play and while Jace is an improvement, it does not seem to be enough of one to really make the difference. The Stax suggestion seems less likely to pan out as Stax already had two excellent options for draw—Thirst for Knowledge and Grafted Skullcap. Thirst is far easier to cast in a deck that plans on casting big artifacts, usually nets two cards right away, is an instant, and can dig three deep if you need to find a specific card. For long term advantage, Grafted Skullcap really is a one-sided Howling Mine and will be far easier to cast.

[sammiel]

what people seem to be forgetting is that after your planeswalker comes into play, you gain priority, and adding loyalty is part of the cost of the ability, not part of the resolution.

so in the case of Jace, he comes into play, I activate his +2 loyalty ability, and he now has 5 loyalty before you can bolt him. I'm not saying they are legacy playable, but they don't instantly die to burn like people think.

[Barook]

I think one of the main problems besides being so horribly expensive is their weakness to Pithing Needle - and that card does see play.

I think that Garruk is the best out ot the bunch because his mana cost still lies in a reasonable realm and his abilities aren't that janky. I doubt that he'll see much play, but he's the most likely candidate out of the current walkers.

[DragoFireheart]

I think one of the main problems besides being so horribly expensive is their weakness to Pithing Needle - and that card does see play.

I think that Garruk is the best out ot the bunch because his mana cost still lies in a reasonable realm and his abilities aren't that janky. I doubt that he'll see much play, but he's the most likely candidate out of the current walkers.

I agree. I would test Garruk in my U/G Thresh deck to see if he's worth the slot.

Cmon WotC! Make some Legacy/Vintage playable Planeswalkers!

[Clark Kant]

No, please don't.

The planeswalkers are already overpowered in standard and block. If they make them any stronger, they're going to be the next Goyfs in standard and block and uberexpensive for legacy players to get as well.

Besides, I don't like using Planeswalkers. They're too slow. Creatures that can't attack, enchantments that require activation costs and can only be used once per turn, where's the fun in that?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

The nice thing about Planeswalkers is that they provide a diversion that absorbs damage. If left alone, however, they can definitely turn the course of a game. Nevertheless, I don't think that they have a home in the eternal formats. That's too bad because it means that they'll only have a limited place in Magic's longer history: once they pass out of extended, they're gone for good, which is too bad since they constitute a whole new card type. And I agree that it would be very hard to make a properly balanced Planeswalker that's clearly playable in Legacy or Vintage. Jace, Ajani, and Garruk are possibilities, but I don't think that they'll have a huge impact in the (wider) format beyond the local metagame scene.

[sammiel]

eh, I don't think they are even fast enough to see play in extended, maybe in 2008 after the post-rotation slowdown, but once the format picks back up I expect they will vanish.

[Barook]

We're going to see more Planeswalker in the future, but Wizards really needs to rethink their concept.

Not all of them should be win conditions (and due to this, horribly expensive) on their own and rely only on activated abilities. I want Planeswalkers that are cheap with support effects and probably some static effect (e.g. all you creatures you control get +1/+1).

The current route Wizards is going will only result in failure unless they print something really overpowered.

[Brushwagg]

I agree Garruk is the most playable for us. His CC is really 2 if you get right down to it.

A few people I've talked to like the Black one (name??) for Landstill. While I'm not to sure of it they seem to be in love with the idea rightnow.

[Pinder]

I agree Garruk is the most playable for us. His CC is really 2 if you get right down to it.

Well, costs two or puts a 3/3 into play. I'm not sure which one I'd want more, although I'm leaning towards the 3/3. Which essentially makes him a CotH that can be Needled. Meh.

[Clark Kant]

We're going to see more Planeswalker in the future, but Wizards really needs to rethink their concept.

Not all of them should be win conditions (and due to this, horribly expensive) on their own and rely only on activated abilities. I want Planeswalkers that are cheap with support effects and probably some static effect (e.g. all you creatures you control get +1/+1).

The current route Wizards is going will only result in failure unless they print something really overpowered.

That's definately not true. They only printed five planeswalkers and it looks like two of them will already find a home in legacy. Atleast Garruk certainly will.

A 20-40% acceptance into legacy is better than all the other cards types put together.

How you guys are saying that Planeswalkers won't have a home based on five cards I will never understand.

Their powerlevel and cc is fine as is.

If wizards makes them too cheap, or too powerful, they could well overhaul how decks are built. Every deck will need to be playing either burn or evasive creatures to have a reliable out against them. Running 2-3 Needle isn't reliable as you could easily not draw it in time.

Besides, everydeck maindecking needles is going to punt survival, cephalid breakfast and a crap ton of other decks out of the format as well.

And that I think would be a bigger contraint on the format than Goblin Lackey ever was.

Think about how many decks and great strategies out there (43 lands, landstill, bbs, enchantressand dozens of others) that don't have an out against planeswalkers and would have to either die out or be completely overhauled if they had to play a good amount of burn or evasive creatures to be able to deal with them.

That many decks being brough down in powerlevel is never a good thing, esp considering that they're all tier 2-3 decks where as tier one decks like ugr thresh have no problem with planeswalkers.

[sammiel]

EXCEPT THAT PLANESWALKERS AREN'T GAMEBREAKING IF YOU CAN'T ANSWER THEM. THEY CERTAINLY AREN'T OVERPOWERED IN STANDARD, AND WHO CARES ABOUT BLOCK CONSTRUCTED WHEN ONLY ONE SET IS OUT? <--- (Slightly too much.)

Capitalization is the difference between helping your Uncle Jack off a horse and helping your uncle jack off a horse. As such, you should use it. - Zilla

[Clark Kant]

Actually, if they aren't answered, it's very likely that every single one of them will win their controller the game with their last ability (except the blue one which just provides massive card advantage over just a few turns).

You can't say that about creatures. All you need is a bigger blocker or a regenerator in play and you don't ever have to worry about dealing with your opponents creature. Not to mention that there's about a billion different ways to kill off or neuter creatures in all decks.

[frogboy]

I've always wanted to spend my fourth or fifth turn putting a 3/3 into play or some other equally worthless effect.

[sammiel]

uh, lol?

Ajani spits out a big non-hasty creature once every 6 turns, and cant do it until the third turn she is in play. So assuming you didnt miss any of your first four land drops, you can have an avatar token on turn 7 and lose ajani, or turn 8 and keep her with 1 loyalty.

Lilliana's ability requires that the graveyards have creatures worth reanimating, and doesn't give them haste. It also can't be done sooner than turn 8 assuming you didn't miss your first five land drops, turn 9 if you want to still have her afterwards. Her +1 and -2 abilities seem to be better anyway, but still not gamebreaking.

Jace allows you two unanswered draws, at sorcery speed, over the course of two turns, for 1UU. On the third turn of him being in play, you can choose to either munch him for another card, or give us both a card to restock his loyalty. Of course, you can never pass priority with his loyalty at 3 if your opponent is playing red for fear of incinerate in standard/extended or bolt in legacy.

Chandra probably has the most powerful 3rd ability, but turn 8 is the soonest you could use it, turn 9 if you wanted to keep her. Unfortunately, her loyalty charging ability is pretty weak, and her second ability seems like it serves no purpose other than to distract you from charging up to her dragonball z ability.

Garruk seems vaguely playable, but he's also the only one with a loyalty charging ability that doesn't work in a vacuum. All of the other loyalty chargers give you some sort of bonus regardless of what's going on, except for Vess if your opponent has an empty hand. Garruk's loyalty charging ability does not benefit you at all if you don't have anything to cast on your turn. Also, like Jace, you have to use his untap ability before passing priority to get him out of incinerate/bolt range. His 3rd ability is probably more powerful than the black one, but requires you to already have creatures in play to do anything.

So, none of them win the game if they aren't answered, they simply generate virtual card advantage like any other permanent that has recurring abilities, such as Isochron.

[raharu]

While not as versatile (ergo not 8 zillion effects), the elementals are better control finishers, on the whole, so for control the plansewalkers aren't really that hot.

[Aggro_zombies]

Capitalization is the difference between helping your Uncle Jack off a horse and helping your uncle jack off a horse. As such, you should use it. - Zilla
You are my hero.

As for planeswalkers, I agree that they won't be that good without significantly better abilities and/or a static ability in addition to their activated abilities. Wizards was playing it cautiously this time around, but (despite all their trumpeting) these planeswalkers don't do anything that couldn't have already been done under existing rules and card types. Granted, they do it in a bit more compact format (somehow, a 0/* creature with defended that comes into play with X loyalty counters and has toughness equal to the number of counters on it just doesn't seem very elegant, but that's essentially what planeswalkers are), but they're still unoriginal and even boring. Way to get us charged up about Magic, Wizards - print a new card type that isn't new and hype it into oblivion in hopes that people don't realize that the game is running out of design space!

Ahem.

I'm veering off-topic. Back on-topic: the only place planeswalkers will be applicable, in any format, is in control decks that can afford to wait around for them to be worthwhile. I could see a deck like Landstill potentially trying to use Garruk as a way to attack with a Factory and then untap it and a land to activate it so you'd have a blocker, or perhaps as a way to keep counterspell mana open. The token-generating ability might be useful for that deck as well. Jace only will have a home (if he has one) in a Stax deck where you can essentially blank any cards your opponent draws with your lock pieces...but then, is he better than just running more win conditions?

[Tacosnape]

None of the planeswalkers are currently amazing. I'm not even convinced any of them are playable. Chandra isn't, Ajani isn't, Jace and Liliana probably aren't but could be in control decks, and Garruk might be.

The biggest problem with Planeswalkers is that they all die to a Tarmogoyf swinging, and that tends to happen a shitload in this format, for those keeping track.

For what it's worth, though, we're already working on a 3-Color UGB Planeswalker Control deck packing Jace, Garruk, and Liliana. All of which gets really silly with Pernicious Deed. I expect it'll get to a point, however, where you could look at the deck and point at the three Planeswalkers and ascertain that better kill conditions must exist.

[DragoFireheart]

Capitalization is the difference between helping your Uncle Jack off a horse and helping your uncle jack off a horse. As such, you should use it. - Zilla

You have won the Internet. :laugh:

In any case though can we expect to see more decks packing burn-spells to fight the Planeswalkers? Will they simply be ignored for the time being? Will WotC make Eternal format-worthy Planeswalkers?

[ClearSkies]

ght be.

The biggest problem with Planeswalkers is that they all die to a Tarmogoyf swinging, and that tends to happen a shitload in this format, for those keeping track.


It actually creates two problems. One problem is the one you mention, Planeswalkers die easily to Tarmogoyf. The second problem is that the Tarmogoyf becomes bigger after eatting one.

Yea, it is probably a minor detail though. I do find it kind of funny though.

[sammiel]

Not that I am claiming they are legacy playable, but a creature/burn spell that kills your planeswalker is one that didn't hit you.

for the love of God, use the shift key once a sentence excepting proper nouns---frogboy

[Iranon]

I wouldnt get too worried about having them removed. Drawing a card and drawing out a bolt for 3 mana is decent. So is drawing out a bolt and getting a 3/3 for 4.

I think Liliana and Chandra don't do anything relevant for too long if you go for the big cheese, and aren't worth the investment for the charging/intermediate ones. Ajani's middle ability looks worthwhile, but slowly building up steam with a swarm deck isn't a very promising concept in Legacy.

[DeathwingZERO]

Props to Froggie for citing someone's misuse of capitalization while ignoring it at the same time $D (I treat mod notes more or less like parentheticals; capitalization is optional. Plus it was 2 AM. Plus, die---frogboy)

As far as these guys are concerned, the green one is the only one I believe to be doing anything, and it's because of the untap effect rather than the beast creator.

Being able to untap any type of a land seems to be rather cool, like random stupid things like a Port activation on your turn keeping control style opponents off mana, then untapping them before end of turn. Dumb things like that might make this thing playable.

Sadly, though, the only thing I can think this can be "abused" by is an elf style deck packing Cradles. But the idea of doing something stupid in a casual Elf deck like untapping a Wirewood Lodge and Cradle to do dumb things with insane amounts of green mana while building up for Overrun seems worth it, but I'm doubting anything else will benefit from this guy.

Also, was anybody else COMPLETELY disappointed by Jace's actual abilities, after people rumoring it's possible abilities as a 3UU creature? I kinda felt this was the last straw to blue getting the ultimate shaft in the "cycle" style cards (one for each color) as of late.

[Nihil Credo]

Ajani deserves testing in a Rabid Wombat shell. The archetype can protect it fairly easily, and all of its three effects are useful (#1 to stabilize, #2 to accelerate Decree and Sacred Mesa, #3 as a finisher of its own).

[DragoFireheart]

Now that the Planeswalkers will be legal soon, has anyone done any serious testing on them?

[boris13]

Well my opinion is this.

Blue and Green have the best chances being the lowest costing and some good effects. The white one would come in third as also being cheap but is the worst in my eyes. The red and black are expensive and not worth the time and effort. They will meet counterspells anyways.

[TheCramp]

None of the planeswalkers are currently amazing. I'm not even convinced any of them are playable. Chandra isn't, Ajani isn't, Jace and Liliana probably aren't but could be in control decks, and Garruk might be.

The biggest problem with Planeswalkers is that they all die to a Tarmogoyf swinging, and that tends to happen a shitload in this format, for those keeping track.


I intend to test Garruk in an Loam shell. Burning Wish, Devastating Dreams, Goyfs, Confidants, Mox Diamond, Terravors etc... I think Turn three (off a mox) Garruk Untap 2, and play any of the borken 2 drops in the deck could be strong. Plus overrunning my goyfs and confidants seems very strong.

[DeathwingZERO]

Has anybody been hearing of the idiocy in combo-application of these cards in Standard/Extended with Doubling Season?

A friend of mine was saying all of his buddies in their casual group are playing with green now in any of their decks packing a Planeswalker, because all but Jace can come into play and activate their best function on the same turn, with points to spare. In the case of Chandra, she'll still have FOUR counters left after she blows the 10 damage, which is quite hilarious.

While I'm sure Doubling Season isn't going to be seen in any Legacy deck, I just thought this little tidbit of information was both awesome and retarded.

[Eldariel]

It could actually be playable in Extended since the Planeswalkers are very decent on their own right and when Liliana and Chandra both become 'win the game' right out of the gates, Doubling Season suddenly doesn't seem so horrible even though it's dead alone. And Garruk isn't bad with season, and is exceptional alone. But yea, that's Extended, Legacy is a different story as the games tend to be few turns shorter and the answers tend to be few mana cheaper.

[Nihil Credo]

Doubling Season rotates out in Standard when Lorwyn rotates in.

Edit: The nice thing is that Season also enhances Garruk and Ajani's token-making abilities. Two, say, 13/13 Avatar tokens is nothing to sneeze at.

[DeathwingZERO]

Doubling Season rotates out in Standard when Lorwyn rotates in.

Edit: The nice thing is that Season also enhances Garruk and Ajani's token-making abilities. Two, say, 13/13 Avatar tokens is nothing to sneeze at.

The main reason I stated "standard" was that's what a lot of friends call their casual based decks, even if it covers more like 3-4 blocks, rather than recent 2. But yes, I will concede the point, it's an Extended legal trick otherwise.

And I agree Legacy probably won't benefit from this in the slightest. In order to even have the amount of time necessary to win, you'd need to put the deck in a very control-oriented shell, which would effectively make Doubling Season + Planeswalker "X" your only win conditions.

Something I did notice, Liliana allows for *any* player to discard a card. Working on a Reanimator shell for casual play and scrub tournaments, I was considering this as a 1 or 2 of, because unlike Therapy, the opponent doesn't get to see what I have when I do discard, and she's a 1 sided mass recursion if she survives long enough. On top of it, she allows me to topdeck into my reanimation spells, which is pretty nice.

[torgar]

My two cents. Planeswalkers royaly f*** with white control. That sucks. What the hell does MWC do against a planeswalker? I'm left to the crappy white lightning bolt and saltblast I believe. Is that it? Not that I imagine them to be a huge factor in legacy but nevertheless... wtf I'm not SB-ing against them. And I'm not a huge fan of free activated abilities that benefit you while making your untouchable 'thing' stronger. I guess Pithing Needle is gonna be my latest hero.

[ClearSkies]

My two cents. Planeswalkers royaly f*** with white control. That sucks. What the hell does MWC do against a planeswalker? I'm left to the crappy white lightning bolt and saltblast I believe. Is that it? Not that I imagine them to be a huge factor in legacy but nevertheless... wtf I'm not SB-ing against them. And I'm not a huge fan of free activated abilities that benefit you while making your untouchable 'thing' stronger. I guess Pithing Needle is gonna be my latest hero.

Don't forget that creatures can attack it. o_O
Unless MWC don't run any creatures. You can also Oblivion Ring it too...

[Lego]

Don't forget that creatures can attack it. o_O
Unless MWC don't run any creatures. You can also Oblivion Ring it too...

And as you mentioned, Pithing Needle is a pretty good answer. Do you really need more than that?

[Jak]

My two cents. Planeswalkers royaly f*** with white control. That sucks. What the hell does MWC do against a planeswalker? I'm left to the crappy white lightning bolt and saltblast I believe. Is that it? Not that I imagine them to be a huge factor in legacy but nevertheless... wtf I'm not SB-ing against them. And I'm not a huge fan of free activated abilities that benefit you while making your untouchable 'thing' stronger. I guess Pithing Needle is gonna be my latest hero.

Same problem. I lost to a fucking T2 deck! MD Obliv. Ring, Gaddock, Man lands, Troll and Garruk owned me. I did beat him one game when I attacked with and Angel token to kill it, but I got crushed and had no answers. My suggestion: Splash Green. Monastery and Mishra help.

[freakish777]

Garruk seems like he'll work in Terrageddon. Your threats would curve Goyf & Bear, Vore, Garruk. Seems like good times.

Edit: Garruk + Stasis ^___^