[Discussion] New made for Old?

[DragoFireheart]

Maybe this is more apparent to more of you than it is to me. Regardless...

Does it seem like newer cards are made to work with older cards?

Like Ichorid for example: When it dies it causes Bridge from Below to make tokens. To fuel Ichorid Dredge was made to put more creatures into the yard.

Does anyone know if WotC makes certain abilites to specifically synergize with older cards?

[Wynk]

Most of the time I don't think they intentionally makes new cards to combo with old ones. There are thousands upon thousands of cards with varying abilities; some cards will accidentally interact quiet well to create powerful synergies. I personally think they test new ideas for cards and then see how they interact in specific environments. If it was overpowered before, they'll try and weaken it. If a card is rotating out, they'll reprint it in a new set or make an equivalent. Mistakes happen in testing which leads to broken plays in particular environments. (Trinisphere in Vintage)

You're right though that they take older cards into account when making newer ones: Lightning bolt/incinerate/lava axe/etc. I feel thought that they rarely try and build us a combo, but rather offer more and more options until combos just naturally appear.

Wizards tries to expand the boundaries of the game with new and hopefully innovative strategies and abilities every set. Old, previously useless cards will see the light of day once more as powerful pieces of new strategies.

See Hulk/Flash. result of rules change
Bridge/Dredge/Ichorid. I think its just saturation of a graveyard abilities combining
Burning Wish/Lion's Eye Diamond
manlands/Standstill
Stifle/Trickbind/Dreadnaught
any multiple mana producer/storm (a mistake)
orim's chant/scepter/Teferi (I don't think it was intentional, it just turned out to be a combo)
life of the loam/cycling lands/wasteland
card types/tarmogoyf
donate/illusions of grandeur (possibly intentional, but I doubt it)
(tribal decks) Now that one was pre built for players
Affinity (again given to players)
En-Kor/Targeting abilities seems accidental

[Silverdragon]

card types/tarmogoyf


lol

Don't forget Necropotence and Lifepoints ;)

So far the only "combo" Wizards (or rather Mark Rosewater) admitted to intentionally put in a set was the Station combo in Fifth Dawn (http://magiccards.info/query/1781545.html)

[DeathwingZERO]

I believe Urza's block has something to say about that. Like Tinker, Goblin Welder, and Grim Monolith being in the same set. Or maybe Academy Rector + Yawgmoth's Bargain. Possibly the mono blue combo styling of the "free" spells + Turnabout + Stroke of Genius IN THE SAME SET.

I mean, to be fair, I'm glad they've put more emphasis on NOT trying to make cards interact as much as they did in this portion of the timeline.

Ya, way to go WotC on that one, lol. I swear they didn't make "mistakes" on any of those cards, they intended to break the game in half. I'm just sure they didn't think most of them would get fired.

But Wynk got it right, when you've got 600+ cards coming out every year, plus an additional 300 cards every 2 years being reprinted, and now the rumor of us having 4 sets a year (which seems to be confirmed, as the way the new block is supposed to be), it'll seem like everything was printed to interact with everything else in a few years time.

[ClearSkies]

I believe Urza's block has something to say about that. Like Tinker, Goblin Welder, and Grim Monolith being in the same set. Or maybe Academy Rector + Yawgmoth's Bargain. Possibly the mono blue combo styling of the "free" spells + Turnabout + Stroke of Genius IN THE SAME SET.


Just like Squandered Resources, Cadaverous Bloom, Vampiric Tutor, Infernal Contract, Prosperity and Natural Balance was all in the same Mirage-Vision block right? (They kind of form the old Cadaverous Bloom combo decks)

I don't think they put as much emphasize on testing cards that are outside the set/block though.

[Maveric78f]

Do you really think that the synergy between Treefolk Harbinger and Doran is accidental ? It is completely crazy though... but a bit less for T2 (all the forests produce only green). It is completely awesome...

[Silverdragon]

Just like Squandered Resources, Cadaverous Bloom, Vampiric Tutor, Infernal Contract, Prosperity and Natural Balance was all in the same Mirage-Vision block right? (They kind of form the old Cadaverous Bloom combo decks)

I don't think they put as much emphasize on testing cards that are outside the set/block though.

Technically you can go back up to Alpha with the broken Badlands, Black Lotus, Channel, Disintegrate combo.
What I wanted to say with the Stations example is that Wizards had never before put cards into a set to intentionally form a combo. They always try to create open ended cards so they naturally fit with some older and newer cards.
Academy Rector for example back then (during development) was just another card that was good if you played Enchantments and Yawgmoth's Bargain was "just" a really good Enchantment.
Tinker was just another card that was good if you played Artifacts and Memory Jar was just a really good Artifact.
Obviously I'm only talking about 2 (or a few more) card combos not about block synergies like tribal which are of course extremely important to have for every set.

[Cait_Sith]

Urza's was a mistake in that they admit they tested it way too little. Tinker is a tutor and a mana accelerant in one. Bargain is the single most powerful card drawing engine to date as it has almost no drawback.

They have yet to really repeat any of their mistakes for the most part, except making a third attempt at a not broken artifact block (They are 0-3 on this), Storm (which has been hated out of every format not called Vintage and ever there is not king), and more Storm (Why Wizards, why?).

They are much more conscious about card drawing power and the recent drive to improve creatures, started in Kamigawa Block but really took off in Ravnica, is going to seriously return the joys of interactivity to the game.

[DeathwingZERO]

Urza's was a mistake in that they admit they tested it way too little. Tinker is a tutor and a mana accelerant in one. Bargain is the single most powerful card drawing engine to date as it has almost no drawback.

They have yet to really repeat any of their mistakes for the most part, except making a third attempt at a not broken artifact block (They are 0-3 on this), Storm (which has been hated out of every format not called Vintage and ever there is not king), and more Storm (Why Wizards, why?).

They are much more conscious about card drawing power and the recent drive to improve creatures, started in Kamigawa Block but really took off in Ravnica, is going to seriously return the joys of interactivity to the game.

I'm unfamiliar with the first (or second?) Artifact "block" that was broken. I know Urza's falls into this category, and to an extent Mirrodin, though with Mirrodin the broken cards were mostly a black creature and some lands. Urza's was just a flat out mistake, as it was supposed to be the "Enchantment" block. LOL at that one. So what was the one I'm missing? Recalling blocks (or even specific sets) isn't bringing up much other than the Golden and Silver ages (Urza's and Mirrodin).

I agree with Storm being degenerate, and their second attempt at a "balanced" storm interaction gave us Grapeshot and EtW, both easily manipulative and in EtW's case, game swinging splashable storm spells.

Personally I think their emphasizing far too much on neutering blue, to be honest. The creatures becoming more powerful is nice, but blue is getting a pretty heavy-handed bitchslap every time we see a new block, and it seems to be getting worse. I'm pretty sure trying to "balance" blue is beating a dead horse at this point, it was already going steadily downhill around Onslaught.

[Silverdragon]

I think Cait_Sith is refering to Antiquities which didn't have that many broken Artifacts but had other gems like Strip Mine, Mishra's Workshop and the UrzaTron.

Mirrodin has more than Disciple and Artifact Lands. Think about Aether Vial, Arcbound Ravager, Cranial Plating in Raffinity and Trinisphere, Crucible, Sundering Titan, Chrome Mox and Isochron's Scepter in general.

I remember Gifts Ungiven being a format defining card in Kamigawa Block and Monoblue being the DtB in Standard during that time. Uw Tron was DtB until 9th rotated out of Standard and in Time Spiral Block among the best decks are Ub Teachings, UG Goyf and MonoU Pickles.

[Nihil Credo]

Well, before Urza's Block there was Antiquities (a single set, not a block), but to call it broken is a major stretch - it only has two cards on the Legacy banned list and maybe a few more playable ones, which is pretty fair considering it was the third set ever printed.

[DeathwingZERO]

I think Cait_Sith is refering to Antiquities which didn't have that many broken Artifacts but had other gems like Strip Mine, Mishra's Workshop and the UrzaTron.

Mirrodin has more than Disciple and Artifact Lands. Think about Aether Vial, Arcbound Ravager, Cranial Plating in Raffinity and Trinisphere, Crucible, Sundering Titan, Chrome Mox and Isochron's Scepter in general.

I remember Gifts Ungiven being a format defining card in Kamigawa Block and Monoblue being the DtB in Standard during that time. Uw Tron was DtB until 9th rotated out of Standard and in Time Spiral Block among the best decks are Ub Teachings, UG Goyf and MonoU Pickles.

I kinda thought he was referring to Antiquities, but in reality I'd say that set was far from a failure, artifact wise. None of those artifacts were absolutely broken, aside from maybe Candelabra in the right deck. Strip Mine, the Tron engine, and Factories don't really tie in with the whole "abusive artifacts" portion of the set, they were just really good colorless lands (aside from Strip, which was just an amazing card altogether). As I'm concerned, had we not gotten Urza's block, Mishra's Workshop wouldn't be even a third as good as it is now. If you take away that block, MUD and Stax pretty much only has Tangle Wire, and the Spheres. And if that were the case, Workshop wouldn't be hitting anywhere near $200+ now. There's a reason the card was still $25 in 1999, and that was because it was a limited 1994 release, not because it was broken.

As far as "broken" artifacts of Mirrodin, the list is small: Artifact lands, and Skullclamp. Ravager is fine without Disciple or artifact lands (try building the deck, you'll be surprised how terrible it becomes). Platinum Angel (you missed that), AEther Vial, Crucible, Slaver, Chrome Mox, Titan, and Scepeter are all fine and balanced, and Plating is ONLY good in Affinity, and pretty much useless if the lands were never made. Mirrodin was much more fair than people give credit for. Take out the artifact lands and Skullclamp, and people wouldn't associate it with "broken" artifacts, just highly playable ones. And that's exactly what the block was supposed to do. So in my opinion, the only failure were the cards already dealt with, which is hardly a reason to call the block itself a failure as an "artifact block".

I can't say that I'd ever use block-constructed as a viable way to prove blue hasn't gotten hosed recently, but the point of Gift's itself is valid. I credit Tron itself to the reason why Tron was good personally, Gift's always felt like just a tutor there. It wasn't nearly the "I win if I cast it" like it was in Vintage for a while, which is really the only format to make it more than just a subpar Intuition. We can't even build "Gifts'" ANYTHING in Legacy right now, which I personally think is very sad. Even then, I will admit Gift's is damn good, but it's still no excuse when you compare it to the cards we've seen in blue for the past 5 or so years. I mean, to be honest, I can't think of anything past Odyssey block to be influential on anything short of Standard other than Gift's itself (not counting storm, as the ability is more degenerate than what the cards would do without it). There's a few gems here and there, but I'd say overall blue has gotten way less playables than the other colors, especially it's enemies: red and green.

[Bane of the Living]

I'm unfamiliar with the first (or second?) Artifact "block" that was broken. I know Urza's falls into this category, and to an extent Mirrodin, though with Mirrodin the broken cards were mostly a black creature and some lands. Urza's was just a flat out mistake, as it was supposed to be the "Enchantment" block. LOL at that one. So what was the one I'm missing? Recalling blocks (or even specific sets) isn't bringing up much other than the Golden and Silver ages (Urza's and Mirrodin).

I agree with Storm being degenerate, and their second attempt at a "balanced" storm interaction gave us Grapeshot and EtW, both easily manipulative and in EtW's case, game swinging splashable storm spells.

Personally I think their emphasizing far too much on neutering blue, to be honest. The creatures becoming more powerful is nice, but blue is getting a pretty heavy-handed bitchslap every time we see a new block, and it seems to be getting worse. I'm pretty sure trying to "balance" blue is beating a dead horse at this point, it was already going steadily downhill around Onslaught.

The second broken artifact set is probably Darksteel. It gave us Skullclamp and Ravager in the same pack of cards. It had Aether fucking Vial.

I think blue is actually getting awesome cards in the new blocks. Meluko, Keiga, Teferi, Remand, Gifts Ungiven.. If anything its improved since Onslaught.

[troopatroop]

Meluko, Keiga, Teferi, Remand, Gifts Ungiven..

Idk. That's the only one that's made a splash in Eternal formats.

[Silverdragon]

Don't forget Counterbalance. Although not that good in Standard it is strong in Legacy and Extended.
Solidarity plays Remand and Twincast. Don't know for how much that counts.

[Cait_Sith]

Idk. That's the only one that's made a splash in Eternal formats.

You know... I heard of this blue deck that used to be really popular. I think it was called Solidarity. I heard it both was a top Legacy deck AND ran Remands.

Funny, no?

[Lego]

Idk. That's the only one that's made a splash in Eternal formats.

Not true, Meloku is a win condition in Gush Storm.

[Cait_Sith]

Keiga and Teferi are the only ones that really haven't yet.

[Wynk]

Even then, Scepter Chant decks, (my pet deck) typically run Teferi as a 2-3 of for a hard lock. It might not be teir one (yet) but its still pretty strong.

[Pinder]

Mirrodin has more than Disciple and Artifact Lands. Think about Aether Vial, Arcbound Ravager, Cranial Plating in Raffinity and Trinisphere, Crucible, Sundering Titan, Chrome Mox and Isochron's Scepter in general.


Don't forget Skullclamp, the card that's banned in every format except Vintage. I'm still not sure what the reasoning on that one was.

"Well, it's cheap, efficient, utterly splashable and provides massive card advantage when the creature it's equipped to dies. Maybe that's a little too good. We should give it some sort of drawback. Like maybe it might kill the creature it's equipped to if that creature is too small. That's not broken at all."

I don't think they ever realized the synergy between the first ability and the second on that card.

[Jak]

And put it with a block that was filled with modular, so the creatures p/t can still stay around.

[Nihil Credo]

And right after a block filled with lots of small Elves, lots of small Goblins, and lots of sacrifice-happy Zombies.

[Illissius]

I think the story with Clamp was they changed it from +1/+1 to +1/-1 at the last second and/or made it two cards rather than one and/or lowered some costs too, without really testing it. Actually, I think that's how most of R&D's mistakes were made (I heard Goyf was originally :2::g:). They need to come up with a strict policy against not ever doing that unless they back it up with an hillion hours of playtesting or something.

EDIT -- As far as R&D's mistakes go, I think the most outrageous one by far, ever, is the Affinity deck. I mean, complaints against R&D's block design generally fall into one of two categories: either they put too much thought into it and design all our decks for us, or they don't put in enough and something broken slips through. That they managed to do both of these at once -- design the completely fucking broken deck for us -- just boggles the mind.

[Wallace]

I remember Gifts Ungiven being a format defining card in Kamigawa Block and Monoblue being the DtB in Standard during that time. Uw Tron was DtB until 9th rotated out of Standard and in Time Spiral Block among the best decks are Ub Teachings, UG Goyf and MonoU Pickles.

I think you are forgeting about the bigger card from Kamigawa Block. Ya know the one that is a staple in almost every aggro deck. The card that was/is a lot of SBs in standard and extended, just in case your oppenent played one. Ya know which one I am talking about right? Umezawa's Jitte is stupid good, the card taht by it self, could win a game. I know you need a creature to put it on, but ya know what I mean. Jitte was printed when SoFi and SoLS were still popular and it had a great creature to weild it, Troll Ascetic. Ascetic seemed to be custom made to carry a Jitte. SoFi and SoLS were/are great cards but I will take a Jitte over a SoFi or SoLS all day. So Jitte is just another card that makes you say WTF?




http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/BOK/en-us/Card81979.jpg
Just in case anyone forgot what id did...:wink:

[frogboy]

Not having played during UBC, Jitte is probably the biggest fuckup from a tournament perspective because some idiot with Lantern Kami and Jitte always won the aggro mirror if you didn't get yours.

Granted, you should've been playing Gifts, but still.

[Cait_Sith]

Granted, you should've been playing Gifts, but still.

Actually it became quickly that you were an idiot for playing Gifts because of Jitte.

You use control elements, weenies, and Jitte and Ag-Con could STILL stomp Aggro if they got their Jitte first.

It was a disgusting time for Aggro.

[sammiel]

When Tooth and Dominate the format but not as bad as affinity so they won't ban me despite the fact that I warp the format just as badly and they even reprinted tron in ninth so that I could continue my dominance rotated out, even control decks were running Jitte. It made your random stuff like tribe-elders more dangerous, and it killed your opponent's Jitte. Hell, Jitte also made tribe-elder that much better, since you could deny your opponent charge counters.

[MattH]

Not having played during UBC, Jitte is probably the biggest fuckup from a tournament perspective because some idiot with Lantern Kami and Jitte always won the aggro mirror if you didn't get yours.

Granted, you should've been playing Gifts, but still.

Memory Jar WOULD have been the biggest fuckup. I don't know if you want to count it though since it only had like 10 tournaments worldwide it was legal for.

[SilverGreen]

Memory Jar WOULD have been the biggest fuckup. I don't know if you want to count it though since it only had like 10 tournaments worldwide it was legal for.
Memory Jar was designed prior current R&D policies, that started during Invasion design time. There wasn't a true Development department at Wizards before that period to "test drive" the created cards, and that's why mistakes were much more common at the time. By "mistake" I consider just the cards that passed the tests and prove themselves unbalanced, not the untested cards (if there wasn't a test, it couldn't exist a test mistake). Some big modern mistakes IMHO, in an higher or lesser extent, are Jitte, Psychatog, Wild Mongrel and Tarmogoyf. I put Skullclamp into a limbo, between the Plane of Mistakes and the Untested Cards Dimension.

[frogboy]

Actually it became quickly that you were an idiot for playing Gifts because of Jitte.

quoted for lol. I'm talking about block constructed here.

[kirdape3]

I'm pretty sure that Karsten would've disagreed with you. He lost Worlds because of Hokori, not because of Jitte.

Gifts at the end of the block could and did regularly defeat most aggro opponents.