[WTF] Jotun Grunt?

[TheDarkshineKnight]

Thanks to the magical creature known as Tarmogoyf, Legacy is even more based around the discard pile than ever before (excluding the Flash metagame.) Because of this, Jotun Grunt should be the perfect card to run in this environment. It's a 4/4 for 1W whose drawback actively assists in combatting decks that use Tarmogoyf. Other than white in general being crap aside from having the absolute best removal in the game, why the hell isn't this being played widely?

[Phantom]

I think this is a classic case of threats being better than answers. Goyf is just an objectively stronger creater (in Legacy at least). When they go head to head, Grunt can often win thanks to its graveyard eating ability (although it sucks that if it dies quickly, it does nothing), but against a guantlet like you would face in a tournement, Goyf outclasses Grunt almost every time.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Goyf doesn't need set up for you to play him. Grunt often dies after a few turns, and is bad in multiples.

[from Cairo]

Seems most people have taken the "Can't beat him, so join him" approach and rather than trying to trump Tarmogoyf, they just run 4 themselves and try to maximize removal for opposing copies.

Either way seems valid I guess.

[DragoFireheart]

While Grunt is good at hosing Thresh, Goyf and Reanimator decks, he doesn't really stick around long enough to make good use of him and if nothing has hit the yard yet he can't be used. Also drawing a bunch of grunts is horrible as it will kill the yard and in return kill the grunt off. Grunt is just as, if not more, dependant on the Graveyard than Goyf.

[Barook]

I think this is a classic case of threats being better than answers.

Exactly. Gofy can easily become a 4/5 on turn 2 which sticks around. Try this with a Grunt...

Where's nothing wrong with Grunt, but we have to accept that R&D really fucked up with Gofy - it's kinda like SoFI vs. Jitte...

Fun fact: I'm still wondering why Jotun Grunt is white - its stats/cost ratio and ability have written green all over it...

[Tacosnape]

Stuff

Because, although it took us varying amounts of time to learn this, Jotun Grunt is an awful card.

First off, in decks with a limited number of threats, you don't need ones that go away on their own. Jotun Grunt is not going to go the distance on his own.

Secondly, his ability doesn't stop the majority of graveyard-based decks, meaning you need to run additional graveyard hate besides him, and if you haven't figured this out, he doesn't synergize well with graveyard hate.

Thirdly, the fact that he costs :1::w: is misleading. Playing him turn two gives him a few turns to live at most.

[cheddercaveman]

Exactly. Gofy can easily become a 4/5 on turn 2 which sticks around. Try this with a Grunt...

Where's nothing wrong with Grunt, but we have to accept that R&D really fucked up with Gofy - it's kinda like SoFI vs. Jitte...

Fun fact: I'm still wondering why Jotun Grunt is white - its stats/cost ratio and ability have written green all over it...

He's white because its an effective weenie. Also, that graveyard effecting ability doesnt really feel green to me (of course I'm not sure it feels white either, but i digress). In the 1-3 mana range white should have the best creatures and in the 3-x range its typically green. This isnt a 100% thing either, obviously as goofy only costs 2.

[Silverdragon]

I already posted it one time but I'll post it again because it's so fitting:

"When you walk down the road of maindecking hate cards, you're hoping to do the following series:

1) Lucksack the hate card in to your hand.
2) Lucksack the hate card in to play.
3) Lucksack your opponent out of ways to answer it.
4) Lucksack your opponent in to being crippled by it.

Making all four of these true is critical to make it worth it[...]. In contrast, here's what your plan is if you just run good cards instead of hate slots:

1) Cast good cards.
2) Win."

For Jötun Grunt add 5) Lucksack yourself into keeping the damn thing alive.

[Finn]

I have a wrinkle to add here.

The only decks I have been intimately familiar with since Tarmo's release are Threshold, Ichorid, and Death and Taxes. So you are getting a perspective here.

For D+T, splashing green for Tarmo has been mentioned plenty of times, and even now with Gaddock Teeg, most of us are unconvinced it is a good plan. The primary reason for this is the fact that the Grunt is one of a suite of graveyard disruption creatures, the other two being Samurai of the Pale Curtain and Stonecloaker. Any one of them can not be counted on to nix an opponent for whom the graveyard is important - from Thresh to Ichorid, to Life from the Loam, etc. But as a group they are effective as hell. Grunt, et al are not really hosers in this deck, but rather disruptive elements that make the environment hostile for graveyard-using opponents.

What I am saying is that unless you are into kidding yourself, you have to choose whether to play Grunt or Tarmo. Tarmo is the better creature, to be sure. But when you go that route, you lose the benefit of being able to trash graveyards with impunity using haphazard effects like Jotun Grunt.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I already posted it one time but I'll post it again because it's so fitting:

"When you walk down the road of maindecking hate cards, you're hoping to do the following series:

1) Lucksack the hate card in to your hand.
2) Lucksack the hate card in to play.
3) Lucksack your opponent out of ways to answer it.
4) Lucksack your opponent in to being crippled by it.

Making all four of these true is critical to make it worth it[...]. In contrast, here's what your plan is if you just run good cards instead of hate slots:

1) Cast good cards.
2) Win."


Wrong. Most of the same things apply to playing "good" cards like Tarmogoyf (note that Grunt is a good card; it's just not as good as Tarmogoyf except in hate scenarios):

1.) Lucksack drawing it.
2.) Lucksack resolving it.
3.) Lucksack your opponent not having any answers before it can kill him (note that your fourth point is actually part of this one).

[Barook]

He's white because its an effective weenie. Also, that graveyard effecting ability doesnt really feel green to me (of course I'm not sure it feels white either, but i digress). In the 1-3 mana range white should have the best creatures and in the 3-x range its typically green. This isnt a 100% thing either, obviously as goofy only costs 2.
Jotun Grunt is not really an effective weenie in the classical sense. Silver Knight and similiar stuff are efficient weenies that are white. White isn't suppossed to get 4/4 creatures for 2 mana. Huge, oversized dudes with a drawback are normally (Loxodon Peacekeeper is the sucky exception) green's part of the color pie (e.g. Tempting Wurm, Sheltering Ancient).

While that isn't evidence enough, let's look on the "drawback". Sure, white does have graveyard hate, but it normally involves removing the cards from the game (e.g. SotPC, Morningtide). Green, however, shuffles them back into the library instead (e.g. Loaming Shaman, Krosan Reclamation, etc.).

[umbowta]

All of you are being way to analytical. Just be honest with yourselves...Jotun grunt isn't being played anymore because everyone was boarding in Death Watch against it.