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godryk
10-03-2007, 03:15 PM
I've never been a big expert on static abilities layers and that stuff. This is about playing Mirror Entity from Lorwyn in a slivers deck.

What will happen if I use Mirror Entity's abilitie and I have a Muscle Sliver out?

Pinder
10-03-2007, 03:26 PM
Power/Toughness changing effects always apply in the last layer (layer 6) when dealing with continuous abilities. Layer 6 has a series of sublayers:

(6a) effects from characteristic-defining abilities;
(6b) all other effects not specifically applied in 6c, 6d, or 6e;
(6c) changes from counters;
(6d) effects from static abilities that modify power and/or toughness but don't set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value; and
(6e) effects that switch a creature's power and toughness.

If I'm reading things right, the ability on Mirror Entity is a characteristic defining ability, and applies in layer 6a (or perhaps in 6b as it isn't specifically applied in 6c, 6d, or 6e), whereas the pump ability from the slivers is an effect that modifies P/T but doesn't set them to a specific amount, and applies afterwards in layer 6d.

In short yes, they become X/Xs and then they get the pump from Sinew/Muscle Sliver.

Anusien
10-03-2007, 03:29 PM
418.5a. The values of an object's characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object, then applying continuous effects in a series of layers in the following order: (1) copy effects (see rule 503, "Copying Objects"); (2) control-changing effects; (3) text-changing effects; (4) type-changing effects (which includes effects that change an object's card type, subtype, and/or supertype); (5) all other continuous effects, except those that change power and/or toughness; and (6) power- and/or toughness-changing effects. Inside each layer from 1 through 5, apply effects from characteristic-defining abilities first, then all other effects in timestamp order. Inside layer 6, apply effects in a series of sublayers in the following order: (6a) effects from characteristic-defining abilities; (6b) all other effects not specifically applied in 6c, 6d, or 6e; (6c) changes from counters; (6d) effects from static abilities that modify power and/or toughness but don't set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value; and (6e) effects that switch a creature's power and toughness. Within each sublayer, apply effects in timestamp order. Note that dependency may alter the order in which effects are applied within a layer or sublayer. See also the rules for timestamp order and dependency (rules 418.5b-418.5g).
Mirror Entity's create type changing effect applies in Layer 4.
Mirror Entity's power/toughness setting effect applies in Layer 6b.
Muscle Sliver's power/toughness pump effect applies in Layer 6d.

X+1/X+1 creatures with all creature types!

Edit:

If I'm reading things right, the ability on Mirror Entity is a characteristic defining ability, and applies in layer 6a
Incorrect.

Characteristic-Defining Ability: Some objects have intrinsic static abilities that define the object's colors, subtypes, power, or toughness. These abilities are characteristic-defining abilities, and they function in all zones. See rule 405.2.

Nihil Credo
10-03-2007, 04:17 PM
To clarify, characteristic-defining abilities are things like Kobolds' text that says they are Red, or Tarmogoyf's explaining what its */*+1 stats are.

Pinder
10-03-2007, 04:26 PM
Incorrect.



If I'm reading things right, the ability on Mirror Entity is a characteristic defining ability, and applies in layer 6a (or perhaps in 6b as it isn't specifically applied in 6c, 6d, or 6e)


Next time quote everything. It is good to have clarification on what a characteristic-setting ability is, though.

edit: Before anyone gets too defensive or anything, I figure I should clarify that it's not the fact that you pointed out I was wrong that I minded (because, you know, I was wrong), it was the way you did.

cdr
10-03-2007, 10:13 PM
405.2. Some objects have intrinsic static abilities that define the object's colors, subtypes, power, or toughness. These abilities are characteristic-defining abilities, and they function in all zones. Abilities of an object that affect the characteristics of another object are not characteristic-defining abilities. Neither are abilities that an object grants to itself, or abilities that set the values of such characteristics only if certain conditions are met. See rule 201, "Characteristics," and rule 418.5a.

CDAs are very narrow, and pretty rare. A CDA is printed on the card, not part of an activated ability, and not conditional (always "on"). If an ability isn't, it isn't a CDA.

The ability granted by Entity's effect isn't a CDA even for itself because, among the other problems, it's granted to itself by another ability.