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Machinus
10-04-2007, 02:34 AM
According to some black-box tournament analysis at mtg.com, this is the state of the online extended metagame:

(19%) CounterTopGoyf
(14%) Goblins

Despite missing some very key cards such as force/wasteland I think this is a very interesting coincidence. Counterbalance being strong enough to succeed in a format with higher CCs such as Extended reveals the power of the card. Goblins being competitive without Vial or Lackey is certain to provide new ideas much like Onslaught Standard did. And the two decks targeting each other is a perfect opportunity to steal new tech from pro players approaching a similar problem.

I expect both of these archetypes to adopt Llorwyn very soon and this may provide some ideas worth testing in Legacy.

frogboy
10-04-2007, 03:57 AM
I'm trying to be constructive, but, like, duh?

Belgareth
10-04-2007, 05:18 AM
Despite missing some very key cards such as force/wasteland

Goblins being competitive without Vial or Lackey.


Do you not think the reason Goblins is competitive without Vial/Lackey is simply because extended misses these important cards (Read FoW, STP, daze, etc)

Meekrab
10-04-2007, 07:11 AM
So 81% of Extended has yet to figure out that Brainstorm + fetchlands equals match wins? What are we supposed to take from this extremely limited data?

Nightmare
10-04-2007, 07:16 AM
Brainstorm isn't legal in Extended anymore.

Grollub
10-04-2007, 08:10 AM
So 81% of Extended has yet to figure out that Brainstorm + fetchlands equals match wins? What are we supposed to take from this extremely limited data?

Not to mention Brainstorm + oldschool fetchlands was used years ago...

What I'm more interested in this the entire proactive/reactive debate that seems to be going on in Extended...

Barook
10-04-2007, 09:27 AM
I have no idea what you want to point out with those data. :confused:

Counterbalance is almost as strong in Extended as it is in Legacy because it's also a format centered around 1-2cc drops - the only reason why Extended has yet to see more Chalice-based decks is the lack of decent acceleration to power it out early. From what I've seen online, it does resemble Threshold in some way - built around cheap, cost-efficient cards combined with card quality.

And those Goblin decks mainly rely more on spamming Goblins like no one's watching. But the reason for this is the lack of Lackey, Vial, Port and Wasteland.

Ebinsugewa
10-04-2007, 09:35 AM
I believe they are allowed to use the Coldsnap versions of certain cards, like Swords and Brainstorm.

Machinus
10-04-2007, 09:36 AM
I'm trying to be constructive, but, like, duh?

For the one person who cares about Extended, yes this is redundant. This is the first time Extended has been relevant to this format and as such it's worth pointing out to people who don't pay attention to it (everyone).

Mainly I'm looking at how Counterbalance is used as proactive disruption and the improvements made to Goblins with tribal cards. I think the pros will have some valuable ideas but we have to look to Extended tournaments for them.

Barook
10-04-2007, 09:42 AM
I believe they are allowed to use the Coldsnap versions of certain cards, like Swords and Brainstorm.
Nope, they aren't because Ice Age is not part of Extended. Reprinting Ice Age cards doesn't make them legal.

Bardo
10-04-2007, 11:24 AM
I believe they are allowed to use the Coldsnap versions of certain cards, like Swords and Brainstorm.

Barook is correct. And Brainstorm and StP were reprinted in CS theme decks only, to increase sales. They weren't a proper part of the Coldsnap set. Like, you'd never crack one in a booster pack.

As to the topic at hand, I'm sorta like Froggy here, I'm not exactly sure what the point of this is. When Karsten was writing his series, I always looked closely for 1.x technology. TrinketAngel and my CounterTop Tog deck came from Extended ideas; as did LoamTog from Kenji Tsumura's T8 at GP Beijing.

Seems like an "Extended Thoughts in Legacy" might be a cool article.

Happy Gilmore
10-04-2007, 12:34 PM
At the pre-release I didn't see any goblins that made me go ooo and ahhh. Honestly Goblin War-marshal, Ib, and Stingscourger were more impressive imo.

sammiel
10-04-2007, 12:46 PM
extended online is nothing like real world extended.

until Invasion block rotates out, the absurd cost of Invasion block staples will continue to distort the online format.

Nihil Credo
10-05-2007, 07:28 AM
extended online is nothing like real world extended.

until Invasion block rotates out, the absurd cost of Invasion block staples will continue to distort the online format.
True, but to some extent works to our advantage, because it reduces the presence of Scepter-Chant and The Rock in the metagame. Since those decks in Legacy are either unplayable (Scepter) or worse than other options (Rock vs. Survival), this makes online Extended actually closer to Legacy than paper Extended is.

Artowis
10-05-2007, 06:41 PM
Ok, I'll explain this for everybody. First let's get some of the wrong statements out of the way.


I believe they are allowed to use the Coldsnap versions of certain cards, like Swords and Brainstorm.

No. Totally wrong. Coldsnap hasn't made any of the old staples legal again. The only old cards that got reprinted are still the Timeshifted reprints from Time Spiral.


extended online is nothing like real world extended.

until Invasion block rotates out, the absurd cost of Invasion block staples will continue to distort the online format.

This part IS true to some extent, but the data is still useful in that many of the Extended players that are T8'ing a lot of the PE's have been playing for so long they basically have access to all cards at this point in time. In addition, the assumed best decks going into the PT are Dredge. Zoo and other Goyf decks, none of which require any online OOP stuff. Decks like Scepter-Chant and some Rock builds were the main ones to get swept under the rug by the OOP shortage, but they weren't even good last season IRL.

Also despite the situation, the article marks that Gifts Rock is right behind Gobs and Goyf, which shows a lot of people that wanted / needed Deeds picked them up from somewhere or figured out a decent workaround.



(19%) CounterTopGoyf
(14%) Goblins

Despite missing some very key cards such as force/wasteland I think this is a very interesting coincidence. Counterbalance being strong enough to succeed in a format with higher CCs such as Extended reveals the power of the card. Goblins being competitive without Vial or Lackey is certain to provide new ideas much like Onslaught Standard did. And the two decks targeting each other is a perfect opportunity to steal new tech from pro players approaching a similar problem.

Um, 'new ideas'? Most of the Goblins decks are just based on Jim Davis's Goblins decks that did well last year at GP Dallas.

As for the meta breakdown, it really isn't that surprising if you consider the supposed top decks at the moment. Dredge is weak to Mogg Fanatic and Goblins has like a dozen ways to off it's own guys to shut down Bridge from Below. Goblins also has a strong enough beatdown pedigree to trump things like Tombstalker and Zombie Infestation from the board. Plus Goblins could run Leyline of the Void in the maindeck and not be that negatively affected, since the main Goblin swarm only takes up like 26-29 slots in 1.x.

The other 'big' deck coming in is Zoo or R/G/x Goyf aggro decks. Goblins can trump that shit all day with a quick start because many of the builds are skimping on removal and take 6-10 points of damage just from lands. If they happen to be the combo versions, the match is really difficult to win even for the R/G models, because they just set-up an ETW for 8-10 and win the prize off it.

CounterTopGoyf also has issues with Goblins, because EE, CB and Jitte are the main ways it has to trump a swarm strategy. If the CB engine doesn't come online early, that means it's relying purely on a 2-1 removal spell (against a deck with 30+ creatures or 26ish and ETW) and Goyf living. Goyf isn't even a trump against Goblin beatdown if Leyline hits the field or the blue deck doesn't set one up first to survive Incinerator. In addition, Jitte-dork and Goyf can both be trumped via Stingscourger and allow damage to sneak through.

I doubt I'd run Goblins, but MODO has this way of massively reacting (in some cases overreacting) to certain decks doing well, so it obviously must have some merits. Plus I mean it did make T8 of GP Dallas last year.

CB Goyf is an obvious choice for front runner because it doesn't scoop to Dredge, CB trumps the best aggro decks in the format if it comes online early enough and Goyf is the best finisher in Extended atm. Plus people seem to love Tog every season and this is just a Trinket Tog build with less support spells and a 'better' (read: cheaper) wall / finisher in the deck.

Machinus
10-05-2007, 08:23 PM
Um, 'new ideas'? Most of the Goblins decks are just based on Jim Davis's Goblins decks that did well last year at GP Dallas.

stuff about extended

Um, yes, new ideas. But about Legacy, not Extended. I don't care about what's good in that format, only the new designs that could be tried in Legacy. Um.

Artowis
10-05-2007, 08:32 PM
Um, yes, new ideas. But about Legacy, not Extended. I don't care about what's good in that format, only the new designs that could be tried in Legacy. Um.

And I pointed out WHY that design is likely doing well in Extended. There is no new design to try unless you think Rite of Flame and Goblin Sledder > Vial and Lackey. The only other design was combo Goblins which was known about since last season and apparently dismissed in general here.

kirdape3
10-05-2007, 09:59 PM
CounterTopGoyf already exists in this format, and it's called Threshold. Due to the still random nature of Legacy, people play too many varied casting costs to warrant tossing it into the maindeck immediately. But it certainly exists.

Goblins has had this possibility in Legacy for ages (the Empty the Warrens storm kill), but nobody's actually tried it out and I'm not sure that it would be the most effective against a heavy Threshold field full of 4/5 creatures for G1.

Machinus
10-05-2007, 10:11 PM
The design restrictions are vastly different, I agree. But given the similarities, I think it is possible that something new will develop that may be useful to us. At the very least, Legacy players can look at Extended's behaviour at the top tier and see how very different the formats are. The misapplication of Extended theory to Legacy is a problem for design and I think this could help address that.