[Single-Card Strategies] Yixlid Jailer

[Wynk]

I've been playing control recently, which is great right now, but I've been wondering what type of graveyard hate I should sideboard right now.

I'm using Extirpate, which is great, but I've been wondering if Yixlid Jailer might be better and cheaper monetarily. Its not a turn one answer, but it does land turn 2 and shuts off all graveyard abilities, while Extirpate only attacks one key card. Its far more vulnerable to removal, but at the same time its a proactive rather than reactive solution and therefore not as vulnerable to discard.

Thoughts?

[The Rack]

I think hes the best grave hate there is out there but what do I know.

My 2 cents.

[Hummingbird TG]

Lets see. He deals with Dredge, Flashback, and Ichorid, right? Hm. And beats for 2. However, the only thing keeping me from running him is that he does nothing against Goyf...Also, you turn all their dead removal into live cards.

[APriestOfGix]

Lets see. He deals with Dredge, Flashback, and Ichorid, right? Hm. And beats for 2.

This stops Loam Decks, Ichorid, and anything else that is in the grave.


However, the only thing keeping me from running him is that he does nothing against Goyf...Also, you turn all their dead removal into live cards.

Gofy not have any answers... And you run him in aggro, so it's not dead removal anyways.

[Hummingbird TG]

I've been playing control recently, which is great right now, but I've been wondering what type of graveyard hate I should sideboard right now.

emphasis mine.

@ PriestofGix: He's playing Control, not aggro.

[Wynk]

I agree that he's a good option for graveyard hate.

However, he comes down turn 2, which sadly may be too late. Ichorid can win turn one (rarely) and can win on turn 2 over 50% of the time.

The other gravehate like Leyline, tomb, and extirpate come down turn 1.
Does this make the Jailer just too expensive, even if he's only 2 mana?

[FredMaster]

Could you tell me how Ichorid can win in Turn 1 (Legacy!)... :confused:

[DeathwingZERO]

Actually the turn 1 play is pretty simple to create, it just requires the correct cards (practically god-hand), and being smart about dredging and discarding.

When my friend did it, he basically abused the hell out of LED. By activating it, he dropped 2 Grave Trolls, a Bridge, a Stinkweed, a DA, and had a Cephalid Coliseum in play, and UUU in the pool.

Pay 1U: 3 life, draw 2 cards = dredge 16. Hits 2 Narcomoebas, and 2 more Bridges, PLUS Therapy and a Dread Return. He now has Threshold.

Activates Coliseum. Dredges Stinkweed, which hits Bridge #4, Grave troll #3, Narcomoeba #3, and Cephalid "OMFG I'M SO BUSTED IN THIS DECK" Sage, and Dread Return #2. Discards Grave Troll x2, and Stinkweed.

Sacrifices Narcomoeba #1 to Cabal Therapy. Hits opponents "whatever" (it's a goldfish game), and creates 4 tokens. Sacrifices the other Narcomoebas + 1 token to hit Dread Return, getting back Sage, plus 8 tokens (now making 11 tokens total). This now dredges 18 cards deep, then some more off the LED he drew from Sage when he couldn't dredge cards 2 and 3 (which now has basically thrown nearly his entire deck in the yard, I think he had maybe 2-3 cards left), and has access to 3 Dread Returns, 3 Cabal Therapies, the 4 Bridges are in the yard, and the 4th Narcomoeba in play.

Sacrifice Narcomoeba +2 tokens to Dread Return a Flame Kin Zealot, and swing with your army of 13 3/3 Zombies + Zealot for the win.

The awesome thing I noticed is that with 4 Bridges in the yard and hitting all 4 Moeba's, you can do some SERIOUSLY abusive stuff with the Dread Return on Zealot. Here's a trick I did before:

Sacrifice a Moeba: get 4 tokens + Therapy Flashback. 3 Moeba + 4 Zombie in play. (safe play, considering it would make sure the opponent can't stop you at this point, otherwise go directly into Dread Return/Zealot nonsense)

Sacrifice Moeba x3: Dread Return Flame Kin Zealot, putting 12 zombies in play, making 16 zombies @ 3/3 each.

Sacrifice Flame Kin Zealot + 2 Zombies: Create 4 Zombie tokens, now making 18 zombies, 4 of which are 3/3, 14 of which are 4/4.

Do again: Create 4 new Zombies at the cost of 2. So now there's 20 zombies. 14 are 5/5, 2 are 4/4, and 4 are 3/3.

Again: (last Return): -2 then +4 more zombies, making 22 total. 14 are 6/6, 2 are 5/5, 2 are 4/4, and 4 are 3/3.

Swing for victory with a Hasted army of Zealot + Zombies, dealing a RIDICULOUSLY impressive 84 (6/6's) + 10 (5/5's) + 8 (4/4s) + 12 (3/3s) + 3 (Zealot) for a total of 117 damage, at your convenience. So much for Belcher getting the best turn 1 plays.

EDIT: As far as Jailers are concerned, I'm not so sure their amazingly hot against Ichorid, unless your also planning on packing in the 4 Leyline plan as well, to guarantee they can't hit you with random Contagion or Chain of Vapor, etc. I noticed that in Legacy I haven't seen a sideboard I'm certain to use, but in Vintage my deck runs 3 Bayou, 4 Reverent Silence, 4 Emerald Charm, and 4 Contagion, to battle Leyline, Jailer, and Needle, all in games 2 and 3. Not sure if it's the same plan I'd use in Legacy, seeing as it uses blue mana more often than green, and the list I was working on with a buddy of mine didn't play maindeck Dryad Arbors like the Vintage did, so Silence and Charm aren't so hot here. More testing is needed to decide what I'd consider good metagame choices, but I would strongly suggest if you worry about Ichorid to pack 8 pieces of hate, not just 4.

[Barook]

Yixlid Jailer is good, splashable answer to graveyards. Sure, it does nothing to Tarmogoyf, but we already came to the conclusion that graveyard hate is not the answer to Goyf.

Plus, if it's too slow, why not combining it with Dark Ritual and/or Chrome Mox?

[Jaynel]

I find Yixlid is best used IN CONJUNCTION with other graveyard hate. Dropping a turn 1 Crypt against Ichorid can slow them down enough for you to find Yixlid Jailer, which will pretty much end the game. That's what I do in Survival, anyways.

[The Rack]

I find the same Jaynel, however I'm not particularly worried about losing to Ichorid turn 1 so I'll take my chances. A simple Duress or Thoughtseize can easily by enough time to drop the Jailer for the win. I particularly don't like Leyline because it only means gg for Ichorid and only Ichorid. Breakfast has answers, not many, but answers at least where Ichorid does not (last time I checked).

Out of curiosity and completely off topic but does anybody play 'Tog anymore? If it was a big part of the metagame it would push Jailer over the top (Dredge A Tog) and if not then it is still an iffy card. It's not very prominent in my meta but it could be in others.

[Bardo]

I've been playing control recently, which is great right now, but I've been wondering what type of graveyard hate I should sideboard right now.

What are our options?

Leyline of the Void
Tormod's Crypt
Loaming Shaman
Jotun Grunt
Planar Void
Yixlid Jailer
Night Soil (!)

It depends what your're trying to hate out. Jailer is good as he's a threat and turns off GY abilities, but does nothing about state-based effects of threats on the board (Tarmogoyf, Mongoose, Fledgling Dragon, Monastery).

Crypt is good because it's fast, but it can also be Stifle'd, Needle'd, etc. It's also a one-shot deal and relatively narrow. Crypt is also unique on this list since it's colorless, free and doesn't have an activation cost.

Loaming Shaman and Grunt play on a similar level, but work differently, and are both are both reasonable threats that need to be answered.

Night Soil will get you plenty of props for thinking outside the box and finding some use for a fairly obscure Fallen Empires common. GG is not easy to pull off. It also can't hit Therapy, etc.

Planar Void is probably the best in the lot here.

Planar Void
Urza's Saga - Uncommon
Card type: Enchantment
Casting cost: B

Oracle text: Whenever a card is put into a graveyard, remove that card from the game.

Note that it doesn't remove cards that enter the graveyard from play. They're removed from any zone, the stack, the library (mill/Note/dredge, etc.)

That pretty much solves all of the problems you're going to encouter: Goyf, Mongoose, Monastery, Ichorid, IGG, Intuition, Tog, etc.

It also only costs 1 mana.

Downsides: Need to come out early. Like a Turn 4 Void against Thresh is pretty shitty. Turn 1, it is a pure beating against any deck that cares. It's also not a creature, so is sorta narrow in the same way as Crypt.

Anyway, since you're trying to throw the broadest, most crippling net, I'd experiment with Planar Void and see how it works out in testing.

[APriestOfGix]

Downsides: Need to come out early. Like a Turn 4 Void against Thresh is pretty shitty. Turn 1, it is a pure beating against any deck that cares. It's also not a creature, so is sorta narrow in the same way as Crypt.

Also you can't play a deck that likes the grave since it removes your grave as well.

Making it useless in Pox, Stax, U/G/b Thresh, and almost any deck...

Yet there are a few that can use it, but this is why Leyline even though costing 3 more, is played more often.

[The Rack]

What does Single Card Strategies have to do with Jailer? We already decided that Jailer is best used complementing other Disruption. Why can't you guys just leave the title how it is?

If your deck is running black and doesn;t care about the graveyard then Planar Void is the best, no doubt. However 2BB may be too extreme if not dropped turn 0. I don't particularly like Leyline unless you can make sure it stays. I love to go Duress, then jailer then vindicate with Funkbrew but that's just how I roll I guess.

2 more cents = $.05

[Bardo]

Wynk's opening post indicated he was plaing "Control," poorly defined as that was, so I was considering Planar Void in a deck that isn't using its graveyard as a strategic resource. Landstill only has Crucible, and some use Monastery--otherwise, that deck doesn't care if it has 2 or 30 cards in its graveyard = not an issue. I was mainly thinking something like U/w/b control, Red Death, B/w Confidant; obviously anything that doesn't carry about its graveyard.

Edit.


What does Single Card Strategies have to do with Jailer? We already decided that Jailer is best used complementing other Disruption. Why can't you guys just leave the title how it is?

The original title was "Is Yixlid Jailer a valid graveyard hate option?" and indicates the thread is about disruptive strategies involving Jailer, no? That you discovered something along the way, doesn't really change things; I was looking at the intent of the opening post.

[GreenOne]

What are our options?

Leyline of the Void
Tormod's Crypt
Loaming Shaman
Jotun Grunt
Planar Void
Yixlid Jailer
Night Soil (!)

It depends what your're trying to hate out.

In those colors there are some more better than night soil:
Morningtide
Ground Seal

Ground Seal is not that narrow: it cantrips and stops Dread Returns even with abeyance played, stops Life from the Loam, etc. And last but not least it stops Night Soil.

[Bardo]

For one, I totally forgot about Ground Seal, but is limited, as Jailer, in solving the "state-based cards" (cards with threshold, Goyf, etc.), and is good at stopping Tog; but does it not stop Cabal Therapy--I don't think... Ground Seal doesn't stop cards from working within the GY (unlike Jailer), they just prevent cards being "targetted."

Re: Morningtide. I was going to list it, but totally forgot it's name. :) That card would be so much better if it was an instant; since it can't stop any dredge combo on the turn it's going off.

[Wynk]

Thanks guys, I appreciate all the imput, though I'm still up in the air about which card I want to use. I'm giving serious consideration to planar void though, even though it doesn't effect cards already in the gravehard. I'd love to use Jailer but turn 2 answers may be too late. This shocks me as I want turn 2 answers to be relevant in this format, but they aren't dependable. I admit I'm probably overhyping the reliability of combo and essential turn of Legacy though.

Whoops! By control I meant Landstill/Scepter Chant. The Landstill thread recommended Extirpates for landstill black splashes, crypts otherwise, and humility to stop Breakfast.

While thinking about which option I wished to choose, extirpate came up as my number one choice. Also, its scepterable, but if you survive the first 2-3 turns you shouldn't need it on a stick.

While perusing the Gatherer for valid gravehate, I saw Yixlid Jailer, which I had previously dismissed, and reconsidered it.

Its a creature, provides a slow clock, comes down early, and solves graveyard tricks including therapies. In control,I'm confident I can counter the removal for it, I'm just not confident I can survive long enough to cast it and for it to be relevant against decks that may not even need to cast spells to win.

Its nice to hear thoughts from the Legacy Community. I appreciate it.

[Bardo]

Jailer is great against Dredge/Ichorid, but quite crappy against the best deck in the format: Threshold. Against Thresh, Jailer is, at best, a chump blocker for a turn. If you're going to devote sideboard space for something, it should be maximally flexible and powerful.

Think how much better Planar Void is against Yixlid Jailer in the Ichorid match for a moment. It's half the cost and a ton better.

[Maveric78f]

The best grave hate in the metagame is extirpate imo. It deals with LftL, ichorids, you only have to deal with 1 tarmogoyf (putrefy, ghastly demise, vendetta, smother are your friends), it's not counterable, it's cheep (in mana), it's instant, etc... and it does not impact your own tarmogoyfs.

If you don't care about the graveyard in your own deck, planar void is the most radical, and wretch is also very efficient (even if it's mana hungry). The best aggro solution to deal with graveyard is jotun grunt, but you already know that.

[Happy Gilmore]

Jailer is great against Dredge/Ichorid, but quite crappy against the best deck in the format: Threshold. Against Thresh, Jailer is, at best, a chump blocker for a turn. If you're going to devote sideboard space for something, it should be maximally flexible and powerful.

Think how much better Planar Void is against Yixlid Jailer in the Ichorid match for a moment. It's half the cost and a ton better.

Its effectiveness against thresh is irrelevant. Jailer is a SB card no matter what, and if you have nothing else for threshold you deserve to lose.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Ground Seal is not that narrow: it cantrips and stops Dread Returns even with abeyance played, stops Life from the Loam, etc. And last but not least it stops Night Soil.
Night Soil :g::g:
Enchantment

:1:, Remove two creature cards in a single graveyard from the game: Put a 1/1 green Saproling creature token into play.

I just wanted to point out that Night Soil is not affected by Ground Seal, because it does not target anything. Fucking with your opponent's (or your own) graveyard is part of the cost of the ability, not the effect. You announce the ability, remove their shit, and put the ability on the stack. And then you get to explain to them why they can't do anything about it.

"Don't worry, Stifle still stops the Saproling from being created!"

Just a little something to think about from someone who absolutely loves Night Soil, and how bizarre it is.

Yixlid Jailer is more effective, though.

[Cait_Sith]

Yixlid Jailer is more effective, though.

I am not so sure on this, and I am not speaking as a lover of Night Soil here.

Jailer is more easily removed thanks to a wide spread of MD hate against low cost creatures. (Yea... Tarmogoyf... we hate you.)

Also, Night Soil gives you REALLY annoying little 1/1s that can nuke BfB when they die.

[etrigan]

Night Soil :g::g:
Enchantment

:1:, Remove two creature cards in a single graveyard from the game: Put a 1/1 green Saproling creature token into play.



So sideboard vs. Ichorid, and...?

I guess it can give Tarmogoyf -1/-1.

[diffy]

So sideboard vs. Ichorid, and...?


It also forces Cephalid Breakfast to have an Abeyance prior to comboing (slowing them down alot). It's also decent against all that randomness you'll encounter like reanimator (Orlove reanimator comes to mind) or Survival (Genesis/Squee) and the like.
The downside is that it's useless against stuff like Life from the Loam or Ill-Gotten Gains where Extirpate and Leyline of the Void shine.



I guess it can give Tarmogoyf -1/-1.


And it gives you a chump-blocker for said goyf which isn't that bad.

But really, the only deck I can see Nightsoil in is Enchantress because of it simply being an enchantment... In the other decks you'd rather play Extirpate (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/71.html)/Tormods Crypt (http://magiccards.info/dk/en/109.html)/Leyline of the Void (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/52.html)/Planar Void (http://magiccards.info/us/en/149.html)/Yixlid Jailer (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/93.html) just because they're cheaper.

[Lego]

.Planar Void
Urza's Saga - Uncommon
Card type: Enchantment
Casting cost: B

Oracle text: Whenever a card is put into a graveyard, remove that card from the game.

Note that it doesn't ONLY remove cards that enter the graveyard from play. They're removed from any zone, the stack, the library (mill/Note/dredge, etc.)

Fixed. It does remove them when they enter the graveyard from play, that's just not all it does.

[Puzzle]

What are our options?

Leyline of the Void
Tormod's Crypt
Loaming Shaman
Jotun Grunt
Planar Void
Yixlid Jailer
Night Soil (!)

It depends what your're trying to hate out. Jailer is good as he's a threat and turns off GY abilities, but does nothing about state-based effects of threats on the board (Tarmogoyf, Mongoose, Fledgling Dragon, Monastery).

Crypt is good because it's fast, but it can also be Stifle'd, Needle'd, etc. It's also a one-shot deal and relatively narrow. Crypt is also unique on this list since it's colorless, free and doesn't have an activation cost.

Loaming Shaman and Grunt play on a similar level, but work differently, and are both are both reasonable threats that need to be answered.

Night Soil will get you plenty of props for thinking outside the box and finding some use for a fairly obscure Fallen Empires common. GG is not easy to pull off. It also can't hit Therapy, etc.

Planar Void is probably the best in the lot here.

Planar Void
Urza's Saga - Uncommon
Card type: Enchantment
Casting cost: B

Oracle text: Whenever a card is put into a graveyard, remove that card from the game.

Note that it doesn't remove cards that enter the graveyard from play. They're removed from any zone, the stack, the library (mill/Note/dredge, etc.)

That pretty much solves all of the problems you're going to encouter: Goyf, Mongoose, Monastery, Ichorid, IGG, Intuition, Tog, etc.

It also only costs 1 mana.

Downsides: Need to come out early. Like a Turn 4 Void against Thresh is pretty shitty. Turn 1, it is a pure beating against any deck that cares. It's also not a creature, so is sorta narrow in the same way as Crypt.

Anyway, since you're trying to throw the broadest, most crippling net, I'd experiment with Planar Void and see how it works out in testing.Planar Void isn't bad but it has one major flaw : it works on a triggered effect, which can be responded to.
The defunct Salvager Game (which may come back to Tier 1.5 imo, backed with Thoughtseize, but that's for another thread) can mostly play around it.
Tog can also play a bit around it, although it makes things more difficult for it.
It stops Dread return but only slows down Bridge in Breakfast and some Ichorids can get through once in some cases. That said, Bridge is not the preferred option so far and Planar Void remains quite a pain even then.

Planar Void remains quite good but if the most reliable graveyard hate is Leyline for me. However, Tarmogoyf is actually more hurt by the former and in the current meta, I guess Planar Void is the better call.

[Cait_Sith]

Ichorids cannot get through Planar Void once it resolves (unless you cast them from hand, but that is extremely rare in Manaless Ichorid).

[FoolofaTook]

2 Jailers in a deck along with other more universal graveyard hate is effective as a diversifying mechanism to make mono-Black more resilient against a wide range of opponents, as we have in the current meta.

I run 2 Jailers in my 16 creature suite in a hybrid aggro/control mono-Black theme that has been working fairly well, especially against Threshold. I also run 4 MD Leyline of the Void and they, along with 4 Wasteland make Threshold very uncomfortable.

The Jailers obviously do nothing against Threshold so I board them out for game 2 but they don't kill me game 1 and they make the deck much better against Dredge-oriented opponents.