[Deck] The Rock - Adapted to Legacy

[kicks_422]

Why not play the Viper and Deed together?... I'll be using this decklist when CS comes out...

4 Bayou
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Swamp
7 Forest
2 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Eternal Witness
4 Ohran Viper
2 Ravenous Baloth

4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Putrefy
4 Pernicious Deed

SB
1 Ravenous Baloth
4 Withered Wretch
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Haunting Echoes
4 Engineered Plague

In the build I posted a couple of pages back, I switched Hyppies for the Vipers... I wanted more creature kill and draw in the deck, and the Viper fit the bill... :D

The 3 drop slot is still loaded though... 20 cards... I'm not running into any problems with that, but I might in the future... Any suggestions on what to do about that?...

[Alex_Van_R]

Decks with Chalice of the Void can be a problem. Chalice with 3 counters on it = gg, unless you have a good sideboard.

[troopatroop]

...yeah.... but who would actually do that? That statement really has no relevance at all, because it would never happen

[Anarky87]

Yeah, I haven't hit too many people wanting to set a Chalice at 3. I did it once on MWS just because I was bored and thought it would be funny. But that problem should never show itself all that much.

My very first build of the Rock contained a ton of 3cc creatures and spells. After some playtesting I realized that that spot was way too overloaded and that I needed to flesh the other cc's out. So now I have 14 3cc stuff and the deck now runs smoother. It was originally like 4 Deeds, 4 Witness, 4 Trolls, 4 Putrefy's, 4 Yavimaya Elder, etc. So you have to watch that, otherwise you'll never get the spells down that you need.

[Arcanix]

I've been testing a white splash lately:

Here is my current list:
land: 24
1 plains
2 swamp
3 forest
1 scrubland
4 bayou
4 savahanna
2 treetop Village
1 volrath's stronghold
3 windswepth heath
3 wooded foothills

2 swords to plowshare
2 putrefy
4 P. deeds
1 haunting echos
3 unearth
2 duress
4 cabal therapy
4 sakura tribe elder
4 wall of blossoms
4 eternal witness
3 troll ascetic
4 loxodon heirarchs
61 cards - can't figure out what to cut

I think most of the deck is self explanatory. I splashed white for hierarch as it is pretty much superior to R. baltoth other than the mana requirements.

First about my metagame:
It is actually usually Vintage not legacy, almost no one plays more than one or two restricted cards except a guy with power 9 that plays a combo deck that really isn't that good based on Earthcraft, infinite mana, and decking.
I think there will be a new person with a good GWr astral slide deck. I do tend to face much randomness and occasionally some combo deck that I’ve never seen. There is also one pretty good reanimator deck that is runs some things that are hard to kill. Sometimes a decent goblins deck.
No one really thinks about attacking my manabase (yet) once that starts I’ll have to run more basic lands.
After all that here is my sideboard was:
4 withered wretch
1 duress
2 null rod - all I have
2 putrefy
2 swords
2 pithing needle - all I have
1 demonic tutor*
1 vamp tutor*
* Obviously not legal in legacy.
I'll be playing Friday I'll probably be taking out P. needles and adding an extra haunting echoes and some stabilizers.
I played the slide deck the other day and it seems like I really need the graveyard removal or we will end up with a draw due to time limits. I might switch out the putrefies for mortifies.

Any suggestions
Thoughts on the white splash, suggestions problems.
I've tried the wish board before. I find it slow and don't really care for it.

[Alex_Van_R]

Why only two maindeck swords to plowshares?
Isn't vindicate better than putrefy if you're playing white?
Why only 2 Duress?
If you're playing Volrath's Stronghold, why only one. The chances of drawing them are rather small.

Your deck gives a an impression of some cards that you simply took together in a few seconds, withouth paying attention about what they do. I'd try to change something it. Reread those 4 questions I stated.

[Majestyk1136]

We got promoted.

@ Arcanix: Without a way to reliably tutor for it why bother with the singleton Echoes? Seems awesome, but reaaaaaallly random. The Unearths and Duresses need to be flipped in number, as Duress is almost always a 1-for-1 with the added benefit of setting up devastating Therapies. Ditto for Hierarchs and Trolls. Turn 2 Troll against a lot of decks looks like a "GG" or it's at least going a long ways in that direction. Get those Treetop Villages out of there. What is this? Landstill? NO. NO. NO. No De-evolution of the deck plz.

As far as the Wishes go, it's only "slow" until you're facing down a threat or problem you're not equipped to deal with in the maindeck. Living Wish is basically a Demonic Tutor that answers the vast majority of the "Questions" that you may have to "Answer" from a random metagame.

[Alex_Van_R]

The Rock (made by Alexander Van Ransbeeck)
Maindeck:
4x Bayou
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Bloodstained Mire
9x Forest
5x Swamp
22 lands

4x Birds of Paradise
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
4x Wall of Blossoms
3x Eternal Witness
2x Troll Ascetic
3x Ravenous Baloth
18 creatures

3x Duress
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Living Wish
3x Putrefy
2x Haunting Echoes
4x Pernicious Deed
18 spells

Sideboard:
1x Dust Bowl
1x Withered Wretch
1x Viridian Shaman
1x Eternal Witness
1x Bone Shredder
1x Troll Ascetic
1x Ravenous Baloth
1x Urborg Shambler
1x Genesis
3x Engineered Plague
3x Cranial Extraction

Motivations and card choices:
· Bloodstained Mire and Wooded Foothills: I made a split in the fetchlands, which enabled me to search both swamps and forests, or Bayou if necessary. They also filter your deck.
· Birds of Paradise and Sakura-Tribe Elder: Birds produces mana, Sakura filters your deck and is a good chumpblocker.
· Wall of Blossoms: Good blocker, card advantage.
· Eternal Witness: Regrowth with a pair of feet on it. Lets you take a card from the grave.
· Troll Ascetic: The Hardest-To-Kill-Creature-Ever. Most of the time, when this creature hits the table, it’s good game for you against a lot of decks.
· Ravenous Baloth: a 4/4 body for four mana, and it can gain you some precious life.
· Duress and Cabal Therapy: Disruption, I don’t think I need to say more about it.
· Living Wish: Because of the lack of good tutors in the legacyformat, I prefer using Living Wish.
· Putrefy: Kills the big guys, and the small guys as well. It helps you to get rid of those pesky artifacts like pithing needle.
· Haunting Echoes: Mostly ment to use against Threshold, it’s a house against combo and control as well. Untill now, the card has been awesome.
· Pernicious Deed: It was my first love, and it still is. BOOM! It wrecks weeniestrategies, but of course, it’s useless against a lot of combodecks.
· Dust Bowl: Clears the table of manlands and other nonbasic scum.
· Withered Wretch: Good against threshold, but also against some combodecks like Iggy-Pop, Reanimator, ...
· Viridian Shaman: It’s Oxidize with legs.
· Bone Shredder: People like to call it ‘The Flying Vag*na’. It destroys one of those creatures that bothers you.
· Urborg Shambler: Som people in my area play Alluren, and this card shuts it down. It’s also a good card against deck like Pikuka, because it kills Nantuko Shade and Dark Confidant.
· Genesis: This card is, in my opinion, better than Volrath’s Stronghold. Stronghold lets you lose a draw. Also, Genesis sometimes is a good wishtarget against Pikuka.

If your metagame consists of:
· A lot of affinity or staX, you should consider replacing Engineered Plague with Oxidize or Naturalize.
· A lot of Threshold, try replacing Putrefy with Diabolic Edict, but then you need to replace someting in your sideboard with Naturalize or Oxidize to get rid of Pithing Needle.
· A graveyard-heavy field, you could replace Duress with Withered Wretch.
· A lot of aggrodecks, you should consider playing Smother or Darkblast over Putrefy.
· A lot of combodecks, add an extra Duress, Cabal Therapy and Cranial Extraction. You might even want to consider Viridian Zealot.
· Lots of decks packed with enchantments or decks like Rifter, consider adding Naturalize and an extra Cranial Extraction.
· A lot of controldecks, you could replace Urborg Shambler with Boseiju, Who Shelters All. You might even consider Living Death.
· Goblins, goblins and goblins, replace one Forest with one Mountain and Urborg Shambler with Goblin Pyromancer. It’s a one-sided Wrath of God. I’ve won a lot of matches against Goblins because of the Pyromancer. You could also add an extra Engineered Plague.
· A lot of decks like Pikula or decks full of landdestruction, try Life From the Loam. Because of the dredging, you might even want to play Genesis maindeck.

I don’t have any testresults on paper, but here are some notes I took about how to play against the 6 decks to beat + a few other decks from my metagame:
· Solidarity: Game 1, you only have Duress and Cabal Therapy to count on in the early game. Most of the times, they will be able to counter someting, but at least you disrupted them a bit and they will go off later then normal. This way, you’ll have some more time to play your role of beatdownplayer. When you disrupted enough, IF you disrupted enough, Haunting Echoes can be played for the ultimate humiliation. You need to be lucky in this matchup.
Game 2 you side out Pernicious Deed and Putrefy and you bring in the Cranial Extractions and three random creatures. The matchup has become a bit better, but sometimes, they’re still faster. It’s important that when you know you’re playing against solidarity, you need to mulligan into at least 1 cheap disruptionspell and maybe an Eternal Witness. When you’re able to play Cranial Extraction, name High Tide first, since that’s the card they need to generate mana. When you’re able to play another one, name Cunning Wish, so they won’t be able to wish for High Tide. When your opponent didn’t scoop yet, and you’re able to play another (!) Cranial Extraction, simply name Brain Freeze.
· Rifter: This is a very good matchup, both in game 1 and after sideboarding. They don’t play any counterspells, so that saves you a lot of worries. Game 1 you simply play Duress and Cabal Therapy all the time. Try to make sure that Humility doesn’t hit the table and start attacking with all your creatures. When Humility hits the table, simply play your creatures like Wall of Blossoms, Birds of Paradise and Sakura-Tribe Elder and start attacking. Keep Troll Ascetic in your hand until Humility is destroyed! If you weren’t able do let your opponent discard his Humilities and when it has hit the table, your only way to get rid of it is Pernicious Deed. However, beware of Disenchant. If you aren’t able to let him discard his Disenchant, you need to wait with playing Pernicious Deed until you’re able to generate seven mana (three mana to play Deed, four mana to blow it up). It’s preferable that you also have a creature in your hand to play after you blew Pernicious Deed. The tokens made by Decree of Justice aren’t a problem either, because of Pernicious Deed. However, same as with Humility, keep one Pernicious Deed in your hand for in case they make a lot of tokens. The last card that actually can act as a problem (Lightning Rift isn’t a problem because of Ravenous Baloth and Pernicious Deed), is Eternal Dragon. However, you’re playing Putrefy to get rid of it when it gets problematic. Wishing for Withered Wretch isn’t a bad play either, espacially when Eternal Dragon is in the graveyard. Don’t forget Haunting echoes!!!
Game 2 you side out all Putrefies for Cranial Extraction and you might even consider siding out Wall of Blossoms for Engineered Plague to use against the decree tokens. This game, you start exactly the same way as during game 1: disrupting your opponent’s hand. Cranial Extraction makes this matchup even better. When you’re playing your first Extraction, name Humility (obviously), that way, the come-into-play-ability of Eternal Witness will work again and you can recur your Extractions. The second time, name Eternal Dragon, since it is a larger threat than Decree of Justice. The third time you’re playing Cranial Extraction, name Decree of Justice and swing with your creatures for the win.
· Pikula, a.k.a. B/W Disruption: Normally spoken, this should be a great matchup for you. However, it really depends on what they play on their first turn. A turn one Hypnotic Specter or Hymn to Tourach really is a pain in the ass. If you have Cabal Therapy in your hand, and you can start the game, naming Dark Ritual isn’t a bad play. When your opponent can start and he didn’t play a turn one Hyppie or Hymn, your best bet is naming Hymn to Tourach with Cabal Therapy. After that, you can name Hypnotic Specter. Sinkhole and Vindicate can be a problem when you don’t have enough land or manaproducers. Once you’ve played around those cards, Pernicious Deed sweeps the board, giving you a path to victory with your creatures. A quick Troll Ascetic can do a lot. They don’t like the creature, because it’s game-winning. If you want to get rid of Nantuko Shade and Dark Confidant, you can wish for Urborg Shambler.
Game 2, you don’t side anything out. The game goes the same way as during game 1.
· Goblins: Many people think this is an autowin. It isn’t! Sometimes, a goblinplayer is simply too fast for you. You can’t always keep up the speed at which they’re attacking you. However, if you can (not IF but if), you’re probably going to win. Your creatures are far better than theirs. Sakura-Tribe Elder is a good chumpblocker and gets you a land, Wall of Blossoms blocks Goblin Lackey, Troll Ascetic kills Goblin Piledriver, Ravenous Baloth is bigger than their goblins and can gain you some precious life. Pernicious Deed can be slow, but that really depends on the situation you’re in. Most of the times, it’s a nice sweeper against them.
Sometimes, the game depends on who wins the diceroll. If you win the diceroll, you’re lucky that you might have the chance of blocking a turn one Goblin Lackey. If you aren’t lucky and Lackey hits the table, you’ll have to race against a fast clock. Cabal Therapy can do wonders. If you can start and you don’t have a creature that can hit the table fast enough to block a potential Lackey, name Goblin Lackey with Therapy. Otherwise, name Goblin Warchief or Goblin Ringleader.
Game 2 you side out Duress for Engineered Plague. Your matchup becomes a lot better, knowing that you have some more removal for those goblins. However, you’re still playing against a fast deck and you still need to be able to draw the removal. I think this matchup is like 50/50.
· U/G/w Threshold: Threshold is a good matchup for you. I think the red version is generally better in a normal metagame, but weaker against the Rock. The white version is still a good matchup, but cards like Mystic Enforcer and Meddling Mage are a pain in the ass. However, you have several ways to get rid of them. First of all, you have disruption, which is better than their counterspells. Cabal Therapy is a way to get rid of Meddling Mage and Mystic Enforcer. Brainstorm could be a way to play around your handdisruption, but eventually, that doesn’t really matter. If Meddling Mage hits the table, you still have Putrefy to kill it. You can wish for Bone Shredder as well. Your only way to get rid of Mystic Enforcer (not counting Cabal Therapy), is Pernicious Deed. Make sure Pernicious Deed hits the table as soon as your opponent plays Mystic Enforcer, and blow it as soon as possible. The other creatures (Nimble Mongoose and Werebear) aren’t a very big problem. Wall of Blossoms is better than Nimble Mongoose, Ravenous Baloth is better than Werebear and you still have Putrefy to get rid of the teddybear.
If you want some other ways to stop your opponent from reaching threshold, you can wish for Withered Wretch. It’s only 2/2, so it’s vunerable, but it still puts a lot of pressure on your opponent.
The fanciest way to is to play Haunting Echoes. Don’t underestimate this card. It’s really awesome. You can disrupt your opponent until you can play Echoes, removing their counters and preferably some creatures too.
The last way to irritate your opponent, is wishing for Dust Bowl (preferably in the early game, when they don’t have any creatures yet) and destroying their lands. Oh, did I already said it rocks with Haunting Echoes? I’ve already won so many matches that way.
Game 2 you can side in Cranial Extraction. I’m still testing if it is fast enough to remove Meddling Mage and Mystic Enforcer. Meddling Mage would be the first target anyway.
I think there isn’t any thresholddeck that doesn’t side in Pithing Needle against the Rock, so be extra carefull. Some thresholddecks also side in Armageddon, which is a pain in the ass as well. Watch out for that, because it can really wreck you!
· U/G/r Threshold: This version of Threshold is way easier to beat than the white version. Nimble Mongoose and Werebear are easily dealt with, and Fledgling Dragon can be targetted with Putrefy. Their burnspells aren’t a big problem, because you have Ravenous Baloth to gain some life when needed. Against this version of Threshold, wishing for Dust Bowl is a good choice if you want to wreck their manabase. I wouldn’t wish for Withered Wretch unless it’s really necessary. Their burnspells can kill it easily, so you would have spoiled your Living Wish. The way to go against this version, is Haunting Echoes.
During the second game, you don’t sideboard. It isn’t necessary to use Cranial Extraction, since you can play around their spells easily.

The next two decks are decks that are played in my metagame, which consists of Threshold, Affinity and a few Allurendecks:
· Affinity: This has always been a good matchup for the Rock, but don’t underestimate it! Pernicious Deed wrecks the deck, but you need to be quick. Sometimes, it really depends on how fast you play Pernicious Deed. Whenever I’m playing against Affinity, I like to mulligan into at least one Pernicious Deed. An ideal hand against Affinity is two lands, one Birds of Paradise and one Pernicious Deed. The other three cards don’t really matter. Try playing Pernicious Deed and blow it as soon as possible. After that, start beating with your creatures for the win.
There are different versions of Affinity these days. Over here, people have cut Myr Enforcer (which is some sort of relief for me) for Dark Confidant to abuse it’s ability and gain some more cardadvantage. Also, most versions run Cabal Therapy, so watch out fot that!
People are still debating about the fact if Fling is better than Berserk. Well, to be honest, I think Fling is a bigger problem for the Rock. Why? Because sacrificing the creature is an additional cost, meaning it’s very hard to decide when you should respond on the sacrificing of their artifacts.
Sometimes, I’m able to wish for and use Dust Bowl. When you’re able to use it, it’s good game most of the times. However, I still prefer wishing for Viridian Shaman.
Game 2 I don’t sideboard, but they will. Watch out for Pithing Needle and even for Winter Orb. Some versions play that card, and when it hits the table, it’s hard to get rid of it. Still, this remains a very good matchup.
· Alluren: This is a very hard matchup, but certainly not unwinnable. Game 1 you have Duress and Cabal Therapy to disrupt your opponent’s hand and you have Haunting Echoes to finish the job. A second way to win, is by wishing for Urborg Shambler. That way, your opponent won’t be able to use the activated ability of Cavern Harpy. Only Man-o’-War can stop the creature. The third way to stop the combo from going, is by playing Pernicious Deed and blowing it in response of Cavern Harpy (meaning WHEN CARVERN HARPY IS STILL ON THE STACK). That way, you will get to destroy Alluren + a creature (most of the times, this will be Raven Familiar). This last method doesn’t work against a player who knows the rules about the stack, since he will try to avoid it for a while, but you can always try it.
Game 2 you side out 2x Pernicious Deed, all Putrefies and 1x Wall of Blossoms and you side in 3x Cranial Extraction and 3x Engineered Plague. You’re going to play the same way as during game 1: disruption. When you’re playing Cranial Extraction, name Alluren the first time. The second time, name the card that bothers you the most. It depends on which version your opponent is playing. There are two versions: the one with the infinite counterloop and the one with Living Wish that wins on Maggot Carrier.
When you’re playing Engineered Plague, name ‘beast’. They only have one way to stop the Plague: by countering it. Nobody will play Cabal Therapy on it, because of two reasons: either your opponent doesn’t know the rule about state based effects (rule 420) or he simply doesn’t expect it to be played against him. If Engineered Plague resolves, it’s good game for you.


Thanks for taking the time to read this. All comments or questions are welcome.
Alex

[Anarky87]

We got promoted.

I know, it surprised me one morning when I was looking through the Open forum and saw The Rock in there. Still very cool.

How is the white splash treating everyone? I've noticed alot of people eschewing traditional G/B combinations for the splash, just to have StP and Hierarch (which I don't find to be all that more spectacular than Baloth, to be honest). Oh, and I guess Vindicate, but...I guess so, I don't know. Why would you need it? It pretty much hits exactly what Deeds hits, save for land, but I'd rather be pointing it at more important things.

I've been kinda tinkering around with my build recently, getting ready for Gencon. Today I came up with this on paper, though I have yet to test it at all:

4 Birds
4 Witness
3 WoB
3 Tribe Elder
4 Troll
3 Baloth

3 Duress
4 Therapy
4 Deed
2 Unearth
3 Smother
2 Putrefy

4 Bayou
5 Forests
4 Swamps
3 Foothills
2 Mires
2 Wasteland
1-2 Stronghold (I'm still debating this one)

I think that's everything I changed...-Looks at paper-...Yup..that's it. Kinda farting around with the SB still. Also, who all from this thread is going to Gencon and playing The Rock, I'd like to meet up with some of ya. PM and let me know.

Edit: Props to Alex for his huge detailed post. I was just about to get testing and post some results, and your post was very insightful.

[Arcanix]

@ Alex - Thanks for your response and some good questions. I don't get to playtest that much these days and the store that i used to play legacy at regular went out of business.

As for vindicate - likely better than putrefy, but I think i'd need to spread my self into white a bit more, which isn't that big of a deal. The biggest problem is that it is a sorcery.

As for Duress - Until my last revision I was at 3 duress and 3 Therapy, but when I added the Unearth's I added on more Therapy. My reasoning is that Saccing a creature would be less painful. There for the 2 for 1 possiblities would go up slightly.

One Volrath's strong hold is due to not wanting to may cards that don't produce colored mana.

2 swords - I didn't want to little maindeck artifact hate - mainly due to Needle.

Thanks for the long detailed post. It was nice to see decklist with good explainations and reasons for choices.

@ Majestyk1136
The single H. Echoes: one problem i have with the deck is trying to get it to 60 cards. There are so many good cards that fit. I often get ready to cut the Echoes then I draw it and it wins me a game. So I never manage to get it cut. This is my first decklist that doesn't contain V. tutor or D.tutor maindeck. (my metagame is actually Vintage, just with no good P9 decks). I would like to get two of them main.
I did go down one Tree top village, I was debating dropping them both. I will probably be changing some things up soon.
Like -2 TT Village. +1 forest, +1 V. Stonghold.

@ Anarky87
In some cases Heirarch isn't that much better than RBaloth, but I'm in a burn heavy meta game. Thus gaining the 4 life and leaving them a large creature for them to deal with is better than gaining 4 life and leaving them with just 4 more life to deal with.

Random thoughts:
Unearth - I really like it with very limited testing. It might be a win more card though. It has helped with with mana accelleration with elders. Recurring E. witnesses is great.

Anyone know off hand which day the Main Legacy event is at GenCon.

Is Vindicate being a sorcery a problem or is putrefy better as an instant

Arcanix

[Mirrislegend]

Random question: Why is it that the Rock no longer seems to run a "Rock", or central, card. I'm not refering to the the originial version with Plaguelord and Hermit. I mean: where the hell is Spiritmonger?!? Maybe I'm still stuck in the days of yore, when Spiritmonger > opponent almost all the time. But he seems like a fantastic beating. Why isnt he seeing any play?

EDIT: btw, where is Ohran Viper as well? List of my own, featuring Viper and Monger coming soon...

[Alex_Van_R]

Troll Ascetic >>> Spiritmonger, because of untargetable and you still have Ravenous Baloth as beatdowncreature

Orphan Viper dies to you own Pernicious Deed...

[Anarky87]

Random question: Why is it that the Rock no longer seems to run a "Rock", or central, card. I'm not refering to the the originial version with Plaguelord and Hermit. I mean: where the hell is Spiritmonger?!? Maybe I'm still stuck in the days of yore, when Spiritmonger > opponent almost all the time. But he seems like a fantastic beating. Why isnt he seeing any play?

EDIT: btw, where is Ohran Viper as well? List of my own, featuring Viper and Monger coming soon...

Because that is exactly what is wrong with him; he's from the day of yore. We play in the present where removal strategies are now more capable than ever to easily handle a 5cc creature with no evasion and no worthwile ability other than regeneration, which isn't that hot against most removal found in Edict, Swords, Wrath, etc. Troll is superb at being nigh indestructible by your opponent, and Baloth fills the roll of 'big 'ole beater.' The deck is more spread out into different bombs rather than just one. Whereas the opponent of the past had to make through disruption and deal with a Monger, now they have to fight through that same disruption, but also deal with threats that are more versatile and harder than ever to remove.

I can't comment too much on Viper, as I haven't tested it at all. Might be good, might be bad. It dies to your own Deed, but if you're playing with Stronghold/Genesis, you can get him back. But he's more of something that I wouldn't want to be losing to Deed all the time, kinda like Troll.

[Mirrislegend]

This deck seems to get its late-game power from recursion w/ 187 creatures.
Might a sac outlet, besides Cabal Therapy, be useful?

[Majestyk1136]

You mean like Ravenous Baloth?

[Mirrislegend]

How is he a useful sac outlet for the come-into-play-effect creatures? Are there beasts in this deck other than Baloth that I'm not seeing?

[Anarky87]

How is he a useful sac outlet for the come-into-play-effect creatures? Are there beasts in this deck other than Baloth that I'm not seeing?

Why are we needing sac outlets again? To replay the creatures that should already be in play? Because Troll should hardly ever be killed by spells or by a Deed. And Witness chump blocks sh*t and sacs to Therapy, hell, I've even Smothered my own Witness in response to a StP. So far I haven't had a problem with getting creatures into the graveyard, which is not really my overall goal in the match. Plus I have crap like Unearth to wing creatures back into play.

Anytime you activate Deed, you're usually losing like maybe a WoB, a BoP, and...maybe a Witness. Which is all good, because then you can Unearth the Witness and then there a bunch of choices you can make there to further your gamestate.

[Mirrislegend]

This deck is a lot tighter than it looks at first glance. Now that I re-examine it, I have no serious suggestions to improve it: mad propz guys.

However, I have my share of slightly less serious suggestions :tongue:.
How bout Chalice MD? I played against a Deadguy that MDed it, always setting it at one. It just runs over so much stuff in the Legacy meta. And it seems a bit in the theme of Rock. However, it may not be worth it, as I keeps the things you want to hit w/ Deed in their hand. And dies to Deed itself. But... whatever. What do I know about The Rock?

[Alex_Van_R]

As you've already said, Pernicious Deed blows Chalice, and all other threats. Playing Chalice in your deck... lets look at it:
1 counter: cabal therapy, duress, birds of paradise
2 counters: wall of blossoms, sakura-tribe elder, living wish, ...
3 counters: troll ascetic, eternal witness, pernicious deed, putrefy, ...

...

Don't play it in the Rock. It isn't part of the plan.

[Mirrislegend]

Speaking of Living Wish, is it now generally accepted as part of the Rock plan? If so, might a Viridian Zealot in the SB be good? Because for game1, all Rock has for enchantment removal is Deed, which one doesnt really want to blow at 4 (Worship, Humility)

[Majestyk1136]

My list is currently testing Indrik Stomphowler as a Wish Target. It's 7 mana to wish for and then drop him, but that's fine as he can't be needled and it's only one more mana than Zealot. Also, he leaves behind a 4/4 body your opponent has to deal with.

[Anarky87]

I usually don't have problems with enchantments, because they either don't see them, or I hit them with discard. I've only had some trouble with Humility when it shuts off CIP abilities. That really sucks. Usually if I expect mostly Rifter, I pack Naturalize and Stench of Evil in the board.

[Alex_Van_R]

I've replaced the sideboard Engineered Plagues with Crime/Punishment. That card is really good. I think it's better than plague, simply because it isn't an enchantment. It improves every non-combo matchup, from threshold to goblins and enchantress. You should really test it. If you have Birds of Paradise in play, take that Mystic Enforcer out of the thrAsholdplayer's graveyard with Crime and beat him with his own cards.

[Anarky87]

Well, after many a tournament and such, I finally made the switch over to the Living Wish version. So now I'll be testing that extensively to get the feel of it. I went to my cardshop tonight and casually asked if I had any store credit and she said I had $19. Of course that shocked me a little, but when I left, 3 Living Wishes left along with me.

@Alex_Van_R: I picked up a set of C/P and I will be trying that in the EP slot to see how it works out. I just kinda wished it was like a Deed in sorcery form. But I guess when you already have 4 Deed, having an Engineered Explosives type effect isn't that bad. I can't believe how hard it is to get Extractions either! People on eBay are beyond retarded when it comes to bidding...

Edit: Also my current build is:

4 Bayou
4 Swamps
4 Forests
2 Wasteland
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Volrath's Stronghold

4 BoP
4 WoB
3 Elder
3 Trolls
3 Witness
3 Baloth

3 Duress
4 Therapy
4 Deed
3 Putrefy
3 Wish
2 Haunting Echoes

As for the SB, haven't really nailed it down yet. Probably end up something like Alex's: 3 C/P, 3 Extraction, 1 Witness, 1 Troll, 1 Baloth, 1 Wasteland, 1 Bone Shredder, 1 Indrik Stomphowler, 1 Wretch and some others.

[Anarky87]

Ok, as I've been tinkering with the deck again lately as potential choice for Gencon, I broke the deck down and I'm now trying to find the general consensus on card choices.

Birds of Paradise 4: I'm running the full set. Not really much to explain here, they power out your bombs faster. I think 4 is the accepted number among everyone here.

Wall of Blossoms 4: An excellent creature in my book. Not only is he a road block against aggro, but he also replaces himself with a card. I can't say there's ever been a time when I wasn't happy to see one. Again, I'm running a full set.

Sakura-Tribe Elder 4: This guy is pretty hot. He pulls so many duties in the deck from chump blocking, to fetching land. I originally ran 4, but went down to 3 for awhile. Now I'm thinking I might go back up to 4 as I've seen myself coming up short in the mana department. I'm also going to up the land count to 22, but more on that later.

Eternal Witness 3: This is a must in the deck and I think everyone would agree. She's a 2/1 Regrowth that has mad synergy with the rest of the deck, practically recurring anything you could ever want to use again, from Deed, to Duress. I'm running 3, and I think that is the accepted number.

Troll Ascetic 2-3: Before I added Wish, I ran a full set of Trolls as they were invaluable. Now that I've added Wish, it was not longer needed to run 4 in the MD, so as of now I've knocked the count down to 3, with 1 in the board to Wish for. I noticed in Alex's build he only runs 2, whereas MajestyK runs the set. This is where you guys can help me out, as you've played the Wish version for longer than I have. Going down to 2 would allow me to add the 4th Elder or extra land. I don't know, need some help there.

Ravenous Baloth 3: I've been playing 3 since I even began working on the deck. I think 3 is the right number, and he's an excellent creature all around. Of course you could always cut 1 Baloth for the extra Elder/Land as well.
------------------------------------------
That's all I have for my creature base. This is assuming a G/B build. I have no testing or experience with the white splash. Now I'll lay out the non-creature department of the deck.
------------------------------------------
Cabal Therapy 4: This is something I think I'd want as a 4 of in the deck. The massive game swing it can cause and its ability to totally strip massive amounts of cards from your opponents hand is crucial. Coupled with Duress, the other discard in the deck, it can provide crushing plays.

Duress 3: I used to play a set of both Duress and Therapy, but later cut the Duress down as it wasn't as useful as Therapy and I wanted to make room for the 3rd Witness. Helps against Combo and other Aggro-Control decks such as Thresh.

Pernicious Deed 4: Pretty much a center piece to the deck. Deed is a key component in what makes the Rock tick. Its ability to completely reset the board of everything is amazing. It also allows the Rock to deal with Enchantments once they've already come into play, which is very helpful. I can't really imagine anything amount other than 4 in the deck.

Living Wish 3: Kind of important to be running these in the deck. Allows you to 'tutor' for specific creatures from the board to help in certain gamestates. I didn't run these until recently, when I converted over to the Wish version for more versatility. 3 seems to be a good number for these.

Smother/Putrefy 3: The other removal in the deck. I think some other form of removal is needed in addition to Deed. Before, I was running a combination of 4 Smother and 3 Putrefy to compliment Deed and that worked well. Smother I found to be good removal as it hit most of the troublesome creatures in the format, save for Nimble Mongoose. I then ran Putrefy to hit the rest of that spectrum (Again, save for Nimble Mongoose, which is shored up by running 4 WoB and 4 Deed).

Haunting Echoes/Unearth 2: I was running Unearth up until I started to really revamp my deck. Unearth coupled with Witness can provide an almost unfair swing in the game that it's hard for the opponent to catch back up. Haunting Echoes is almost a finisher in and of itself, completely crippling the opponent's deck of key cards. Forcing this through at the right time can pretty much end the game or provide an extreme obstacle that the opponent must overcome. Absolutely amazing in matchups like Rifter where you don't have to worry about counters.
------------------------------------------
This is where I'll talk about the land base. I'm sure this section will vary depending on what people's metas are (For instance, needing to run 4 Wasteland, 2, or none at all).
------------------------------------------
Wasteland 3: For a long time I ran 4, without a second thought. Then, my area started to switch away from land bases that weren't so messy or contained a ton of non-basics, therefore lessening Wastelands usefulness. So I cut it down to 2 for a time being. I've recently added 1 more back to the MD and 1 to the SB as a Wish target. This is something I assume will fluctuate, given playing preference and metas.

Wooded Foothills/Bloodstained Mire 2/2: Running two of each I think enables the deck to reliably attain GG and BB when needed. This could change, depending on the color requirements of the deck, but as of right now, I think this is a good number for these.

Bayou 4: Check, gotta have these for the deck. Not much to really say about them, the deck is B/G, thefore it should be running 4 duals of that color, nuff said I think.

Forest 6: We're going to need basics to fetch for if we're playing against Wasteland. This is another slot that will most defintely vary depending on preference.

Swamp 4: The other basic. See Forest.

Volrath's Stronghold 0-2: I've run these in the past and they've proven excellent, even in Waste heavy environments. I've added 1 to the Sb to Wish for if need be.
------------------------------------------
Now for the SB. This will probably differ as different people will pack for what they expect to see. Thought I'm sure there are a few mainstays for the board that one can expect to see all the time.
------------------------------------------
1 Troll Ascetic, 1 Eternal Witness, 1 Ravenous Baloth, 1 Withered Wretch: Those are the ones I think I'd want in my board no matter what. The first 3 provide extra utility with Wish, being spread out among the MD and SB. Wretch can help in certain metas where combo (Iggy-Pop, Salvager Game/The Game) and Reanimator might pop up.

1 Wasteland/Dustbowl/Volrath's Stronghold/Genesis: With these, I'd say you could go either way as each pair does something similiar to the other. Wasteland hits a non-basic once; Dustbowl hits as many non-basics as you're willing to pitch lands to. Stronghold recurs creatures, but is vulnerable to Wasteland; Genesis recurs creatures, but has to be put into the GY (Which I assume from being in play), but could be Sworded, making you have to Wish for it again. These might come down to preference.

Crime/Punishment, Cranial Extraction 3/3: These are new editions to the SB, suggested by Alex. I'm still waiting for these cards to arrive in the mail from eBay, so I've yet to have time to test with them. Alex has said they both are a tremendous help against different decks. Crime/Punishment, in a way, provides mini-Deeds 5-7 and, with a Bird in play, can steal creatures from your opponent's GY or bring back your own, where Extraction blows entire win conditions out of decks and is recurrable through Witness.

The rest of the SB I assume would be a certain mixture of creatures/lands to help out in other situations, such as: Viridian Shaman, Indrik Stomphowler (How's this one going for everyone? Haven't had a chance to try it out yet), more Wretches, Bone Shredder, Urborg Shambler, etc.

So this is what I've come to:

-The Rock-

//Lands//
6 Forests
4 Swamps
4 Bayous
3 Wastelands
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mires

//Creatures//
4 Birds of Paradise
3-4 Wall of Blossoms
3-4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Eternal Witness
2-4 Troll Ascetic
3 Ravenous Baloth

//Non-Creature//
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Duress
3 Putrefy
3 Living Wish
2 Unearth/Haunting Echoes

//Sideboard//
3 Cranial Extraction
3 Crime/Punishment
1 Troll Ascetic
1 Ravenous Baloth
1 Eternal Witness
1 Withered Wretch
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bone Shredder
1 Indrik Stomphowler
1 Urborg Shambler

That's all, feel free to discuss.

[Psyk]

What I am very happy with is the addition of 2 Living Death. It has inscredible synergy with this deck, since most of your creatures have an leave play or come into play -effect. you can sack your baloths and elders before you play it and the walls and witnesses let you draw a card when they come back from the dead.
plus all your opponents creatures die too. It might me advisable to remove them with wretch tho.

I also run some equip in my list (2 jitte / 2 swords) great synergy with the troll and the bird (the sword at least) but I am not too sure about them.

[Anarky87]

What I am very happy with is the addition of 2 Living Death. It has inscredible synergy with this deck, since most of your creatures have an leave play or come into play -effect. you can sack your baloths and elders before you play it and the walls and witnesses let you draw a card when they come back from the dead.
plus all your opponents creatures die too. It might me advisable to remove them with wretch tho.

I also run some equip in my list (2 jitte / 2 swords) great synergy with the troll and the bird (the sword at least) but I am not too sure about them.

That sounds great, but seems to only improve the aggro matchup, which the Rock is usually favored against. Mostly I'm looking to improve the combo matchup, and if I just Deeded away my opponents creatures, the last thing I'd want would be to bring them all back into play, especially against Goblins or the like. Also, equipment + Deed = pretty bad synergy. I think if you were gonna play equipment, I'd not play Deed, but then Deed helps tremendously in so many matchups that you would really want it. There is an aggro version of the Rock that plays Trolls, Confidants, and Hyppies along with equipment. That might be something you could check out.

[Alex_Van_R]

Don't play Living Death, unless you're playing heavy graveyard removal (maindeck wretches and echoes). It isn't necessary, since you already win the aggro matchups. It's useless against combo, it might will be usefull against controldecks, but you already win those too. I'd concentrate some more on the combomatchups.

[Galroth]

I've been testing a version of The Rock running 4x Unearth, which I've been very satisfied with. It has definitely improved my aggro and control matchups by even further margins, while not hurting or helping against combo. In order to make room for the unearths I cut the Ravenous Baloths. They're still available using wish, but they seemed the logical cut considering Unearth can't target them. Having 4x Unearth allowed me to not reserve my use of them (as I did when running 2-3 of them). It's helped speed the deck up a bit. I get my wishes off sooner because of the mana Unearth can ensure through recurring birds and elders. And Unearth is endlessly useful after setting off a deed. The one match-up this has hurt is burn (where Baloths are the prettiest thing you've ever seen). Recurring Witness isn't bad though, and quicker acceleration into more expensive wish targets helps a bit.

Alex, Majesty, Anarky - I'm curious why you're running only 2-3 Unearths. Also, how has Haunting Echoes treated you? I haven't tested it at all; my initial thoughts tended toward echoes being a 'win more' card.

[Anarky87]

I've been testing a version of The Rock running 4x Unearth, which I've been very satisfied with. It has definitely improved my aggro and control matchups by even further margins, while not hurting or helping against combo. In order to make room for the unearths I cut the Ravenous Baloths. They're still available using wish, but they seemed the logical cut considering Unearth can't target them. Having 4x Unearth allowed me to not reserve my use of them (as I did when running 2-3 of them). It's helped speed the deck up a bit. I get my wishes off sooner because of the mana Unearth can ensure through recurring birds and elders. And Unearth is endlessly useful after setting off a deed. The one match-up this has hurt is burn (where Baloths are the prettiest thing you've ever seen). Recurring Witness isn't bad though, and quicker acceleration into more expensive wish targets helps a bit.

Alex, Majesty, Anarky - I'm curious why you're running only 2-3 Unearths. Also, how has Haunting Echoes treated you? I haven't tested it at all; my initial thoughts tended toward echoes being a 'win more' card.

I've since cut them from my build, but I did find them very useful when I was running them. I only ran two because, while it was nice to recur stuff like Witness, Troll, Elder, etc. I didn't want to see them THAT often. Granted they can cycle if not needed, but recently I've been trying out Haunting Echoes in its place, and that's been working out pretty well. Against decks like Rifter and the like, it basically just wrecks them beyong belief, and you can finish them off with ease. Against Gro, when you can pull it off, it pretty much cripples them to the point where you should be able to finish them. As long as you can hit a few counters, cantrips, and maybe 1-2 of their creatures, the match is pretty much gold.

In recent testing I've been having some trouble with U/G/W Gro. I kind of miss having my Smother's along side Putrefy. In two games I wasn't able to hit Therapy in my openeing hand, nor later on, and they managed to land 3 (!) Mages on Deed, Putrefy, and Wish, which pretty much killed me. In another, he had turn 1 Pithing Needle on Deed, followed by two Mages naming Wish and Putrefy. Tonight we might work on SB games (Because these were all pre-board) and the C/P should help that problem out.

Edit: Also, feel free to post your list to give us some insight to your choices, if want.

[Tao]

and they managed to land 3 (!) Mages on Deed, Putrefy, and Wish, which pretty much killed me. In another, he had turn 1 Pithing Needle on Deed, followed by two Mages naming Wish and Putrefy. Tonight we might work on SB games (Because these were all pre-board)

Testing with someone who knows you exact decklist and plays like this will adulterate the results of preboard games. In a tourney you will never cast an early Mage on Putrefy or a Turn 1 Needle on Deed. It is the same that in those games you start hitting first Turn Therapies on FoW on the play. You should test Game 1 as if you don't know what your opponent is playing unless you are Oliver Ruel or another Pro who get these informations while shuffling.

Basically the test result of the game you described is worthless because this game (turn 1 Needle on Deed) will never happen in a tourney.

[Anarky87]

Testing with someone who knows you exact decklist and plays like this will adulterate the results of preboard games. In a tourney you will never cast an early Mage on Putrefy or a Turn 1 Needle on Deed. It is the same that in those games you start hitting first Turn Therapies on FoW on the play. You should test Game 1 as if you don't know what your opponent is playing unless you are Oliver Ruel or another Pro who get these informations while shuffling.

Basically the test result of the game you described is worthless because this game (turn 1 Needle on Deed) will never happen in a tourney.

This I know. I would also say that after game 1, those plays would be more frequent. If they saw Deed, Troll, Witness, etc. in game 1, chances are (unless they live oblivious to The Rock's existance) Mages and Needles will be coming down to shut me out of removal. It's also difficult to just play ignorantly and also get your test partners to do the same. Possible, yet hard to do.

[tsabo_tavoc]

I have met a deck on MWS that might be classified as rock-variant centering on gaining card advantage.

4 GW fetches 1 BR fetch 2 Forest 1 Plains 4 Bayou 3 Savannah 1 Scrubland
1 Volrath's Stronghold 1 Nantuko Monastery 2 Treetop Village 4 Mishra's Factory

4 Wall of Blossoms 4 Eternal Witness 3 Dark Confidant 4 Mesmeric Fiend 4 Ohran Viper

2 Vindicate 3 Pernicious Deed 4 StP 4 Cabal Therapy 2 Jitte 2 Ghostway

SB:2 Vindicate 1 Pernicious Deed 3 Carven Caryatid 4 Needle 4 Darkblast 1 Life from the Loam

This deck owns a decent matchup against aggros and various kinds of combos while lose to burns and solidarity that runs few permanent.
More discussions...

[noobslayer]

I've come to realize the Rock is a possible strong contender for the metagame. It's an established archtype with strong roots, and can be tooled to battle the opponents on all fronts. This is the list I am currently running. It has an aggro feel, so it can race quite easily, and has a strong creautre base to abuse Jitte.

// Lands
4 [B] Bayou
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [B] Forest (1)
2 [B] Swamp (1)

// Creatures
4 [B] Llanowar Elves
3 [ON] Ravenous Baloth
3 [MR] Troll Ascetic
3 [CS] Ohran Viper
3 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [US] Duress
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [UL] Unearth
3 [RAV] Putrefy

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LG] Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 3 [ON] Naturalize
SB: 4 [LE] Withered Wretch
SB: 2 [PT] Virtue's Ruin
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast

Ohran Viper: A recent addition from Coldsnap. I think it can be an all star in this deck, especially with stronghold and unearth recurssion happening.

[SuckerPunch]

You know what rock's problem is. Deed.

It's so insanely powerful, but it also antisynergic with and makes you hesistate to play the best cards in the game, like equipment for example.

Glad to see a build that says who cares and run 4 Jitte anyways. It does win games by itself afterall.

2 Reanimate >>>> 2 Unearth in your build. It can get you back Baloth, after you sac it in response to a Swords or Deed at 4.

Plus it can take the opponents Exalted Angel that you just deeded as well. Or the big fatty that you made your opponent discard with Cabal Therapy.

[noobslayer]

The unearth slot could come out altogether, maybe resulting in two MD Hymn to Tourach. Or more Witnesses

[Anarky87]

You could bring it out for another Witness and Troll. Have you given SoFI a thought? I would probably run a 3/2 of Jitte and SoFI.

[iOWN]

If I ran any equipment, it would be Mask of Memory and Jitte.

[Anarky87]

If I ran any equipment, it would be Mask of Memory and Jitte.

The Jitte I can see running, no doubt. I'm not really sold on MoM, as it has no power/toughness boost, which is what makes the creatures dangerous. Ohran Viper with SoFI is just insane, as when it connects, it then shoots something for 2 while drawing you 2 cards. Against Goblins that pretty much up ends the game. I've yet to have a real problem with Deed and the equipment so far, as I've been viewing Deed in the deck now as sort of a reset button if your opponent gets ahead. Moving The Rock more towards an aggro roll, with disruption elements, may just what it needs to push it into contention. So far I've been testing this build, based off of Noobslayer's list:

4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Ohran Viper
3 Ravenous Baloth
3 Eternal Witness

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Putrefy
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Duress

6 Forests
4 Swamps
4 Bayous
3 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mires
1 Volrath Stronghold

I may bring the land count down again now, due to the addition of the elves. I'd like the deck to take on a more proactive roll, forcing the opponent into defense, while using Therapy/Duress to push through key spells.

[noobslayer]

I think you could even go as far as cutting a Deed if you need to fit in something else in another slot. But I defineately think that's a metagame call. I'll test the list I'm running now, and let you know how that plays out. Anyone, PM me if you want to test. IM SquirellReaper88 on aim.

[Anarky87]

I think you could even go as far as cutting a Deed if you need to fit in something else in another slot. But I defineately think that's a metagame call. I'll test the list I'm running now, and let you know how that plays out. Anyone, PM me if you want to test. IM SquirellReaper88 on aim.

I was just thinking that as well. Maybe not 4 Deed, perhaps 2-3 would be the correct call. But yes, testing is in order. I've been continually running pre-board games against Goblins (one of my harder matchups with the old list) and everything is going fantastic. As of this writing, I have 2 Vipers on the board, one equipped with SoFI and a Jitte with 5 counters on it to his 2x Ringleader and SGC with tokens.

Edit: My only gripe is that Ohran Viper won't be legal for Gencon, which means I have to find something that can replace him...

[noobslayer]

Well, I think at GenCon, you're going to see a lot of Gro and a lot of Solidarity. It's a shame too, because Viper is pretty sweet vs. Gro's ground dudes. I guess you could go:

-3 Ohran Viper
+1 Duress (to finish out the set)
+2 Hypnotic Specter (Good against your control and combo match-ups, comes out turn two off a Llanowar/Fyhndorn elf, and carries a Jitte/Sword over the competition)

That's just my two cents. In the end it's your call.

[Anarky87]

Well, I think at GenCon, you're going to see a lot of Gro and a lot of Solidarity. It's a shame too, because Viper is pretty sweet vs. Gro's ground dudes. I guess you could go:

-3 Ohran Viper
+1 Duress (to finish out the set)
+2 Hypnotic Specter (Good against your control and combo match-ups, comes out turn two off a Llanowar/Fyhndorn elf, and carries a Jitte/Sword over the competition)

That's just my two cents. In the end it's your call.

(We've already talked about this on AIM, I just thought I'd add it to the forum)

I took a walk tonight after testing the deck and realized Viper would not be legal for Gencon. That was a bummer, but I, too, thought of replacing him with Specter for the time being. While it somewhat weakens your Goblins matchup, it should improve both your Gro and Combo matchup in the process. The next thing we should nail down is the SB. I've been wondering if I should run 3 Hymns in the board for the Combo matchup, bring out Putrefy. Something along the lines of:

4 Withered Wretch
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Engineered Plague
1 Darkblast
2 Virtue's Ruin

The decklist has changed so far to:

4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Hypnotic Specter
3 Ravenous Baloth
3 Eternal Witness

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Putrefy
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Duress

4 Forests
4 Swamps
4 Wastelands
3 Bayous
2 Mire's
2 Foothills
2 Strongholds

Edit: Had to change the SB due to their being 16 cards instead of 15, and to make an update to include the addition of 3 Chains.

[noobslayer]

Because of the unfortunate lack of Viper for GenCon, I think for the aggro version of the rock, you've hit it head on. Good luck.

[worsel]

If you are running 3 Jittes and 2 SOFI, then what do you think of "Stone-Throwing Devils"?

Having first strike means that with an equpped Jitte, they will get their counters before the blocking creature can deal it's damage. With an equipped SOFI, you will draw a card, and deal 2 damage before the blocking creature deals it's damage. Pretty sweet!

Also, the Devils can block, kill, and survive your opponent's first-turn Lackeys.

"Black Knight" could also be a good creature with all that equipment.

Other possibilities could be "Nekrataal", "Sanguine Guard", "Knight of Stromgald"/"Order of the Ebon Hand", and "Glissa Sunseeker".

[Anarky87]

Well I played the newest list of The Rock to a less than awesome record of 2-4 at the Legacy Champs. What I expected to be a field of Gro and Solidarity (What my SB was geared toward beating) turned out to be Goblins/Sligh decks. My rounds were:

Round 1: Dave with Smart Goblins (L)
Round 2: Matt with Angel Stompy (W)
Round 3: Don't remember his name with Seismic Assault/LftL/Burn.dec (L)
Round 4: Disgruntled player named John with Goblins (L)
Round 5: Matt (Different one) with not so good Goblins.dec (W)
Round 6: Chris with Mono Red Sligh...thing (L)

-Drop-

Most of my losses came from never getting what I needed when I mulliganed, or I would gain control of the game finally, only to have an arbitrarily large amount of burn thrown at my head. Granted I think the deck will improve some when Viper becomes legal, but I was also thinking about bringing the land count back up to 22. With Equipment, Deed, Stronghold, and Troll, the deck is very mana hungry. I think 22 would be adequate in giving us our proper land drops in the early/middle game to help us facilitate what goes on. I lost the second game of round 1, because I couldn't make my land drops to save my life (I had Plague and DB in my hand with no black to cast it due to double mulligan).

I also want to bring the Stronghold count down to 1 I think. There was more than a couple instances where I would have one in play and another sitting in my hand/topdecked another one, or I would get double Stronghold hands. Also, the games I seemed to win was when I threw down a turn 2 Troll and started swinging. That usually caused the game to swing in my favor (Ask the Round 2 AS player what staring down double Trolls is like). I'd like to see more fast Trolls/Baloths/Vipers (In the future). So I'm gonna test those changes and see how it works with the deck.

[Alex_Van_R]

When you play the aggroversion of the Rock, cut Pernicious Deed (or put them into the sideboard). It doesn't have good synergy with most of your permanents on the table.

Looking at your decklist:

4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Hypnotic Specter
3 Ravenous Baloth
3 Eternal Witness

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Putrefy
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Duress

4 Forests
4 Swamps
4 Wastelands
3 Bayous
2 Mire's
2 Foothills
2 Strongholds

You're playing aggro, so adapt your version that it really looks like aggro. Cut Pernicious Deed and Duress. Cabal Therapy is still a good card, so it can stay. I think you don't even need Sakura-Tribe Elder in an aggrodeck. Your creatures are cheap, so you won't be having that much problems with your mana.

Let's take a look at your manabase: (Using your list)
* 12 cards at 1CC
* 6 cards at 2CC
* 19 cards at 3CC
* 3 cards at 4CC
See where I'm going? 19 cards at 3CC is way too much. No wonder you had to mulligan that much. Cut Pernicious Deed for Withered Wretch (or something else you can use). Replace Putrefy with Smother. Now you have 12cards at 3CC.
Change the Fyndhorn Elves with Birds of Paradise. You're playing a lot of cards that require double-colored casting cost. Your chances of hitting a turn 2 Hypnotic Specter against combo are bigger now. Birds of Paradise has flying, and when it's equiped with Sword of Fire and Ice, the party can begin. Even when Birds is useless, you can sacrifice it to Cabal Therapy. You can still change Duress with some Elves.
At 2CC, cut Sakura-Tribe Elder. (I already told you the reason.) Replace them for example with Mesmeric Fiend (against combo) or eventually Dark Confidant.
One thing you should try: Chrome Mox. (1 random or maybe 2) It can be very usefull.

This is what I had to say about the aggroversion. You really need to choose between aggro and aggro-control. When you're playing aggro-control, cut the equipment, the hyppies (and Orhan Viper). They suck whenever you blow Deed.

[Anarky87]

I hardly ever mulliganed game 1. I mulliganed alot in games 2-3 because I was looking for the cards I SB'd. That's what I meant by, "Never getting getting what I needed when I mulliganed." I would probably leave Duress in, as it helped me out all day, either by hitting cards, or by letting me make awesome Therapies next turn with the knowledge it gave me. Deed I wouldn't cut altogether, just maybe taking it down to 3. I never had trouble with its interaction against equipment, because usually when I blew it, I either was holding a Witness in my hand, or I had double Troll waiting to come pounding threw and win.

I would also keep the Elves, as Birds are useless with Jitte (unless they're blocking and dying or the Jitte already has counters on it) and after Viper becomes legal, the Specters will be gone, eliminating BB from the MD. It will still be in the SB, but I never had trouble getting GG or BB during the tournament. I think a list akin to what LAM proposed several pages baack may be in order, his list was:

-Aggro Rock by Lego_Army_Spaceman-
4 Elves
4 Birds
4 Trolls
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter

4 Duress
4 Therapy
4 Putrefy
3 SoFI
2 Jitte
3 Chrome Mox

4 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Volrath's Stronghold

This is his explanation of the deck:

As you can see, I've never played this deck in Legacy. There are no Deeds, too much equipment, and Chrome Moxes. 20 Lands, 3 Chrome Moxes, and 8 Turn 1 mana producers means the deck can pop out that Troll Ascetic or Hyppy on turn 2 regularly, and then equip him on turn 3 or 4. That's not as good in Legacy as it is in Extended, and I don't really know if there's a place for this deck.

I can see the Specters leaving for Viper, splitting the fetchlands, reducing the Stronghold count, and reversing the Sword/Jitte ratio. We could discuss from here.

[noobslayer]

Hypnotic Specter was only a place holder for Viper. So as far as cutting the elves for Birds, it seems like a mistake. Namely, you still want something that can trade Lackey, unthreshed Mongeese and Bears, and other x/1 dudes. You also want something (particualrly in my build), that can grab a jitte and start to stack up counters all on its own.

I can see cutting deeds down, to maybe three, but not out entirely. You still have stronghold to rebuild your board post deed, so it's not a detrimental loss. Plus deed is your generic reset button, and is a universal outs to a lot of situations.

I agree that putrefy can be something else, but it also have a nice sense of versatility. I will however, be testing it as other forms of targeted removal.

As far as STE goes, it could be something else, but they help a lot in keeping a stable mana base, and keeping the actual land count lower.

As for Duress... Solidarity and Gro see a lot of play. This helps give you a fighting chance.

EDIT: At LAM list, the big problem is the only relevant un-equipped threat it can present is Troll, everything else can easily be taken care of.

[Anarky87]

I've been trying to tool with the creature base so far, but I'm kinda stumped. I know what I've nailed down so far for the creature base is:

4 Fyndhorn/Llanowar Elves
4 Dark Confidant
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Ohran Viper

At this point I'm not too sure. I've been toying around with 4 Specters and 2 Birds, but I don't think that'll be that great. But I can't really think of anything better that's good while unequipped. Viper's good because he either swings and draws you a card, or he gets blocked and takes out that creature. He's even more dangerous when equipped, like Troll. Confidant is there as a beater and a card advantage man. I was looking at critters that couldn't be targetted except by me, but that really only left Troll (Which I was already playing), and Silhana Ledgewalker, which was a 1/1 for 1G. And that didn't really thrill me too much. My non-creature spell base looks like this:

4 Therapy
3 Duress
4 Smother
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Sword of Fire and Ice

Same hand disruption package as before, but now with Smother, which I think will perform nicely in the current meta. I brought the overall equip count up to 6, since I plan on playing 22 creatures, so the creature/equip ratio will be the same as AS. The mana base is pretty much the same:

4 Bayou
4 Forests
4 Swamps
4 Wasteland
2 Foothills
2 Mires
1 Stronghold

So far it's been treating me good. I think I'll leave my SB the same, or toss the Deeds in there. Maybe something like:

4 Withered Wretch
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Engineered Plague/Pernicious Deed
2 Pernicious Deed/Engineered Plague

Not sure about it yet, just trying to get the MD nailed down right now.

As this deviates from the regular version of The Rock to a more G/B Aggro-Control, I've code named it The Green Lantern. I know, pretty gay, but it was the only thing I could think of being Green and Black.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

The Green Lantern. I know, pretty gay, but it was the only thing I could think of being Green and Black.


Hahaha.. The Green Lantern... I actually like this name!!! :cool:

[Phantom]

@Anarky87: You might want to head over to the thread "Dark Viper" thread I started on the Developmental Forum. My list was very similar to yours and it might be a better place to talk about Aggro Rock since its matchups are so much different than standard Rock. I do like "The Green Lantern" as the name though.

Edit: I have no problem with the discussion staying here as long as no one else does. Just a suggestion.

[worsel]

If you are running 3 Jittes and 2 SOFI, then what do you think of "Stone-Throwing Devils"?

Having first strike means that with an equpped Jitte, they will get their counters before the blocking creature can deal it's damage. With an equipped SOFI, you will draw a card, and deal 2 damage before the blocking creature deals it's damage. Pretty sweet!

Also, the Devils can block, kill, and survive your opponent's first-turn Lackeys.

"Black Knight" could also be a good creature with all that equipment.

Other possibilities could be "Nekrataal", "Sanguine Guard", "Knight of Stromgald"/"Order of the Ebon Hand", and "Glissa Sunseeker".


Just wondering if my selection of creatures was not worth commenting on, or if my post got lost in the mix of topics?

I would like to know what people think of the first strike ability with all this equipment. The Devils are a one-drop, and seem quite powerful (?)

:smile:

[Majestyk1136]

I hate to snipe. I wasn't there and I didn't play so my ability to comment is tempered by the fact that my experience is limited to my local shop.

I think it was a mistake to turn the Rock into an Aggro-style deck. Remember your triangle! Aggro << Combo << Control. This is somewhat subject to interpretation of course as most decks display elements of at least two of these. Trouble is this: Unless you can out-aggro the best aggressive deck you can't play aggro. Unless you can outcontrol the control deck you need to play aggro. Unless you can outrace the combo deck you need to play control.

By turning the deck in an aggressive direction you consequently damaged the matchups that the Rock is supposed to dominate: namely, aggression and control. Combo is a matchup that can be remedied by clever sideboarding.

The other thing that you did by going in a more aggressive direction is you eliminated the deck's ability to trade life for time. It appears that you made it so that your opponents didn't have to deal with an opponent that effectively had 24-28 life or more instead of an opponent that had 18 or so life because of Fetchlands. Probably less thanks to Bob. The Rock is all about Inevitability. This deck has practically none of that. The only thing that it apparently has is the ability to inevitably kill itself thanks to Bob.

Relying on Jitte as your sole source of lifegain just seems too fragile. Anyways, my big question is this: Why have you modified the deck like this? What matchup did it improve markedly? Why is everybody so hot and bothered for Ohran Viper? There are proven alternatives to this card that aren't dependant on combat. As you'll notice, combat doesn't matter a great deal to the combo decks in this format.

Anyways, I hope you don't think of this as anything but constructive criticism from somebody who has had a great deal of success with control Rock.

-majestyk

PS: I think Chains of Mephistopheles should have been Tsunami if you were expecting stuff like Solidarity to make a big appearance.

[Majestyk1136]

Just wondering if my selection of creatures was not worth commenting on, or if my post got lost in the mix of topics?

I would like to know what people think of the first strike ability with all this equipment. The Devils are a one-drop, and seem quite powerful (?)

:smile:

I cry just a little bit inside when I hear suggestions like this. I don't want to criticize your thought but here are a few of my comments: No. No. No. It doesn't address any of the deck's problem matchups in my opinion better than currently available options and if you're not playing equipment the Devils look like a real joke.

[noobslayer]

@ Worsel:
The problem with Black Knight, while it is a very cost effiecient creature, it doesn't help the game plan along. STE chumps and thins the deck, while fixing the mana base, Troll is a must deal with creature, witness recurrs everything, Viper draws cards or knocks out a threat, and Baloth gains you life on top of his massive body. Same goes for the STD's.

@Majesty:
It's gone an aggro route to apply pressure, while retaining all it's old disruptive elements. It still does fairly well against control, via Volrath's Stronghold, and as usual has a decent aggro match-up. Not much has changed really, it's to me just the natural evolution of the deck. The more controlling version is still entirely viable, what we have done is explored the options we have available.

And at your Tsunami vs. Chains. Tsunami costs 4, Chains costs 2. To solidarity that's a BFD. Every game that Anarky and I tested, when he resolved a chains on me, I either found a cunning wish, or died. It was as simple as that.

[Alex_Van_R]

1) I'm not a fan of aggro rock. I am a fan of the aggrocontrol build.
2) Orhan Viper is overhyped. It doesn't belong in controlrock, neither it does in any deck that plays Pernicious Deed and blows its own creatures. It might be good in aggrorock, but I'm not able to comment on that due to a lack of testing with aggro rock.
3) I don't get how you improve aggromatchups with aggro rock. Jitte and SoFaI are slow against goblins. By then, you're might as well dead.

[Majestyk1136]

How do you recover from a one-sided Armageddon if you're Solidarity? With all of the hand disruption that the Rock sports getting through that FoW or Remand shouldn't be a problem in my opinion. On average, if you draw a Tsunami you should be able to cast it on turn 3 thanks to the minimum of 7 mana accelerants in the deck.

The big thing is this: Chains is a great disruptive element but not game ending by your own admission as you still have an out that can save you. However, blowing up 3-4 Islands probably ends the game decisively right there.

On the subject of the natural evolution of the Rock: it doesn't seem to me to be the natural evolution of the deck at all. As I mentioned in my post above the critical component of the deck is the notion of inevitability. There are a large number of outs for a control deck against a stock aggro deck, even if the aggro deck plays with strong disruptive elements like Duress and Therapy. Note that not even a single Pikula deck sniffed t8 contention because it's essentially the deck you designed but using white instead of green. Some of the finer points are different of course, but the general thrust is the same: Play men, trash hand, smash face.

By giving up the late game inevitability of the more controlling version you are severely weakening the aggro matchup for the chance at having an only slightly better matchup against combo or control, and then not that much.

This deck can't outrace Goblins. Period. Why people insist on trying to build this deck to do that is beyond me. It can't outrace combo, even in its highest aggro gear. In both of these matches you are NOT THE BEATDOWN. You are playing control.

Remember, as Flores taught us: Misassignment of role = game loss. If you have any further questions I will direct you to the Scoreboard.

[worsel]

Majestyk1136,

I personally would be grateful to see what you believe is an optimal build for a Legacy Rock deck. Your view seems quite valid. Would you consider posting a decklist with sideboard?

Thanks. :smile:

[Majestyk1136]

//NAME: G/B Control
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Putrefy
2 Ravenous Baloth
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Unearth
3 Living Wish
3 Eternal Witness
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
5 Forest
4 Swamp
SB: 1 Genesis
SB: 3 Withered Wretch
SB: 1 Bone Shredder
SB: 1 Ravenous Baloth
SB: 1 Viridian Shaman
SB: 1 Indrik Stomphowler
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Hymn to Tourach*

*These can become Tsunami if Solidarity is going to be the primary combo deck present. They can also become Haunting Echoes against a field full of Thresh and/or Rifter.

As to the deck's "optimal-ness" I would say that thus far I haven't been able to find a place to cut anything that would allow more room for stuff, or what that stuff might be. You have a huge number of viable game plans with this deck. You're essentially playing with 5 Baloths, (2 main, 3 Living Wish) 7 creatures that Cantrip and a board clearing effect par excellence.

Wretch can neuter Combo, Thresh or any other matchup that might be considered a problem with the graveyard. Unearth is a critical lategame component. Stringing about 3 of them together thanks to Witnesses is very likely. It also sets up a nice loop for chump blocking and in cases where it can't be used effectively as a spell it cycles. The number of times this scenario comes up however is limited thanks to the fact that you have all of those cantrip creatures. The mana base is as solid as the Rock of Gibraltar while being able to punish opposing nonbasics.

For details on matchups see here. (http://www.blackgoldsports.com/Primer_Legacy_Rock.htm)

I have to update the primer to reflect the removal of LftL, but it was only ever in the deck to irritate Pikula decks anyways.

[Alex_Van_R]

Or try my decklist and matchup analysis: Here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=78041&postcount=258)

Try both mine and Majestyk's list. The differences aren't very big, but they're adapted to the metagame.

[Anarky87]

The reason for pushing the deck into a more aggressive role was due to my horrific results against Goblins and winless 0-20 match record (Pre and Post) against Solidarity.

Tsunami was pretty much shit against Solidarity as they were able to dodge (for the most part) my discard spells and simply Remand Tsunami back to my hand, where upon casting of next turn, I would be bashed with a thousand spells in response and lose. Chains makes them unable to win unless it's dealt with. Sure, Tsunami does that as well, but two turns later (without accel), and that was always too late. Chains turns all their draws spells into crap, and even if they do dig for Wish to bounce it, they've blown so many resources to do so, that you can simply recast it and continue to race. Yeah, sometimes you get lucky and draw maybe 2-3 pieces of your disruption game 1 and they have a bad hand and you can eek out a win. But that's usually not the case. Post board, you get 3 Duress, 4 Therapy, 3 Hymns and 3 Chains; that's alot of hate. Personally I think you need both Hymn AND Chains to push through the match, as Post board, they'll bring in Disrupt, so that turn 2 Hymn ain't so hot. You could wait a turn, making disrupt kinda useless, but then they'll be at three lands, which is not impossible to go off from. Noobslayer and I tested the Solidarity match extensively before Gencon, I even tested the match even more at the hotel the night before and with Hymn and Chains, games 2 and 3 were are almost severely in your favor.

I had tested the deck for weeks before Gencon. Sure it was great at beating up random crappery, but had a tough time against anything that was legit. It went about 50/50 aginst UGw Gro, less than that against Goblins, pretty much hopeless against Solidarity (Though it could squeak wins by average IGG players), and don't even tell me how frusterating it is to test against resource denial decks like Deadguy and Red Death. The entire time at Gencon I went turn 1 Elf, turn 2 Troll, I was instantly in control of the game. I wouldn't call it a misassignment of role, as more of a realization of its role. Game 1 of round 1 against Goblins, I won because I went aggro on him, churning out a discount Troll, followed by a Deed wiping his Vials away. Have you ever watched Goblins play the defensive? It's humorous, because Goblins is terrible on the defensive. Jitte nullifies attackers, and Sword pretty much ends the game. Plague was pretty much useless against Goblins, as most I saw there, save for one, were of the Smart variety. Meaning SB Disenchant that makes Plague look foolish; or SB Goblin King in mono red Gobs. Personally, I think if I would have shedded the remanents of the control shell, I would have had a better game against alot things.

Of course Viper still wouldn't have been legal, which still would have sucked. But Viper is something to be hot and bothered about. A creature that kills anything on the ground, plus draws you a card. Everything in Goblins dies to it, all of Gro's ground pounders die to it, and the list goes on and on. Not to mention when it's suited up, it's a card drawing, creature killing machine. The matches aren't really marred at all. The only control deck in the format anymore is Gro (But BHMC's Landstill might change that), and it's a control deck with several potent clocks. I can't say that during my 5-6 months of playing the deck I ever really crushed the most aggro of aggro decks (i.e. Goblins). Actually, I take that back, back when Goblin players were retarded and didn't splash white/green to deal with Plague. Then I could just minimally ignore their threats and become, "G/BGet2xPlaguedownasap.dec" and just force concession. But with players becoming 'smart' about hate, Plague becomes less impressive, unless you leave Duress in to take out Disenchants, which means you're removing something else.

I know I wasn't control, and if Viper had been legal, I wouldn't have tried to hold onto to my control routes. I would have simply tuned the deck to aggro-control. The aggro-control just becomes more proactive, while retaining its disruption package of Duress/Therapy. I'm definitely working on getting Deed into my SB, if not MD, depending upon my testing. I didn't really see that many Deadguy decks sporting white at Gencon. I know Zohar got 9th with Red Death, so apparently a Deadguy variant was nipping right at the heels of the T8 to be honest. The deck really doesn't give up any kind of late game. Troll is nearly impossible to get rid of besides Edict, and Wrath. Viper is easier to hit, but if they're not dealt with, they're still a 5/3 untargettable, regenerating, trampler, and a 1/3, with a deadly touch to creatures and card drawing built in, most of the time carrying a Jitte.

I'm not saying the control version of The Rock is terrible, it's actually a fine deck. I'm just exploring all the possible avenues of those color combinations. Noobslayer is going to be testing Rock control variants that include splashes in white and red. There's nothing wrong with going off the beaten path, and that's just what we're doing. I won't continue my discussion of that variant here, I'll do it over in the other thread.

[Majestyk1136]

I just look at this list and think: "He's taken out the best board sweeper available and replaced it with a man." You do know that Legacy is a fundamentally Creature vs. Anti-Creature format, correct? Even the combo decks outside of Solidarity pretty much all have a plan for men. That said, the reason we play Troll is because it defeats one of the fundamental strategies of Legacy: Killing creatures with targeted removal. We play other creatures like Baloth because it doesn't just die to a Swords to Plowshares/Combat/randomness without giving you some benefit. We play stuff like Witness and WoB because you GET A CARD. No matter what. You don't have to dork around with things like "Combat," "Equipment," (which does nothing absent a man) or "Opponent's Blockers."

I just can't see how your matchup against Goblins with the control version of Rock was so bad that you had to something which looks, objectively, worse than the initial go. My own testing against Goblins pre-boarding actually is somewhat positive. In a lot of cases I've actually been toying around with the notion of using Infest instead of Engineered Plague as it sort of "out-sideboards" the goblins player who has to bring in Disenchant/Naturalize in order to not auto-lose to the aforementioned double Plague. This gives them 4 dead cards, an important advantage against a deck that is tight as a gnat's ass to begin with.

Lastly, how your matchup against thresh was so bad before is beyond me. You've even posted about how badly the Thresh players at your shop got wrecked by the Rock. In my own experience you have some serious inevitability against Thresh. There are too many bombs that you have that they can't allow to get through that just end the game. Maybe my interpretation and testing are totally faulty. I try to find people who know how to play their decks well enough to not make simpleton mistakes with them.

I don't want to sound upset, but I'm a little disappointed is all.

[Anarky87]

I just look at this list and think: "He's taken out the best board sweeper available and replaced it with a man." You do know that Legacy is a fundamentally Creature vs. Anti-Creature format, correct? Even the combo decks outside of Solidarity pretty much all have a plan for men. That said, the reason we play Troll is because it defeats one of the fundamental strategies of Legacy: Killing creatures with targeted removal. We play other creatures like Baloth because it doesn't just die to a Swords to Plowshares/Combat/randomness without giving you some benefit. We play stuff like Witness and WoB because you GET A CARD. No matter what. You don't have to dork around with things like "Combat," "Equipment," (which does nothing absent a man) or "Opponent's Blockers."

I just can't see how your matchup against Goblins with the control version of Rock was so bad that you had to something which looks, objectively, worse than the initial go. My own testing against Goblins pre-boarding actually is somewhat positive. In a lot of cases I've actually been toying around with the notion of using Infest instead of Engineered Plague as it sort of "out-sideboards" the goblins player who has to bring in Disenchant/Naturalize in order to not auto-lose to the aforementioned double Plague. This gives them 4 dead cards, an important advantage against a deck that is tight as a gnat's ass to begin with.

Lastly, how your matchup against thresh was so bad before is beyond me. You've even posted about how badly the Thresh players at your shop got wrecked by the Rock. In my own experience you have some serious inevitability against Thresh. There are too many bombs that you have that they can't allow to get through that just end the game. Maybe my interpretation and testing are totally faulty. I try to find people who know how to play their decks well enough to not make simpleton mistakes with them.

I don't want to sound upset, but I'm a little disappointed is all.

I understand the concept of the format being creature vs. anti creature. I understand that very well. And I usually did have a favorable matchup against Goblins game one, if, and only if, they DID NOT drop Lackey, being that the control deck simply has no way of dealing with it. Unless you go first and name Lackey, I've won a few times that way. The best case scenario being they play Lackey, you play a land and a bird, they play a land (And you hope to God they don't use any of their Fanatics/Incinerators to nullify your BoP. Happened alot in testing) and swing, you block with birds, they maybe play something else and pass turn, you play another land and play Wall/Elder and say go. That seems alot less dismal then what I experienced in testing. Usually it was they played a Lackey, I then had no turn one play, maybe sometimes a bird, they would play a land, blow my bird up and swing and win from there.

I understand Trolls strong points, hence why I'm playing 4 in the other version. Baloth is great at dodging removal himself...but then the opponent doesn't really care if you trade a beater for 4 life. I've had Thresh players StP him, knowing that I'll sac him and get him out of the way. The reason I beat Thresh back at my store was due to it still being relatively an unknown. Eventually, they knew what key cards to counter and what hurt me most. Yeah, you can say, "Well you just play X amount of discard spells and get rid of them." Well that's great...when you draw X amount of cards, where X is greater than 2. Usually 1-2 discard spells isn't enough to a hand of FoW, StP, Daze/Counterspell, and X amount of cantrips/Draw spells. But that was my list before I added Wish, with a real SB and straight MD. I think that version was pretty strong and would most likely be the list I would run, going back to a control variant. And lastly, inevitability isn't so hot against creatures/artifacts nullifying your removal and a ginormous 6/6, pro-black, flying monster eating your life away.

The part about bombs isn't always true. Obviously Deed is a huge bomb, Troll is a pretty serious bomb, Baloth is an ok bomb if it isn't dealt with. Witness is kinda meh, as they'll usually let you fetch the card you want and then counter it. And it's not like they do all that with a threat free board. With every spell they stop you from playing, their creatures become closer to being huge. Against a regular player, you might win game 1 based on they won't know exactly what cards to hit and will make a mistake. Game 2, they know to drop Needle on Deed and Mage on Putrefy (This is especially terrible in builds that the only removal outside of Deed is Putrefy. Leaving you only Wish to try and get rid of it, which isn't a good plan). In my old build that left me with Smother, which some times got through and sometimes didn't.

I by no means tested against random people. I played Goblins myself, which I'm pretty good at (About the level you would see at a normal tournament, probably a little better), my friend Nate played Thresh, which he is very adept at and has played pretty much since its inception, and Solidarity was played by my shop owner, who is more than capable of playing with any deck and doing extremely well. When I do come back to the control version, I would most likely cut Wish altogether and go back to the 3 Dures, 4 Deed, 4 Therapy, 3 Smother, 2 Putrefy, 2 Unearth build I was running. It had a good game against alot of things and with my new SB, I'm sure it would do well. As for now, I'm working on the aggro-control build and it appears to be coming along nicely.

I know you're not upset, just trying to come at it from the other side and that's hard to do. I'm not blasting anyone's choices or preferences here, just stating why I played what I did. The control version is still a powerful meta choice, considering what will most likely be played alot now. Anyway, I'd rather not clutter up this thread and leave it to the actual discussion of the deck. But as reference for this thread and anyone else considering playing The Rock in its control version, here is my variant (Sans Wish) that I played to some very high success:

//Lands// 22
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
5 Forests
4 Swamps
2 Foothills
2 Mires
1 Stronghold

//Creatures// 20
4 BoP
4 WoB
4 Trolls
3 Elder
3 Witness
2 Baloth

//Non-Creature// 18
3 Duress
4 Therapy
4 Deed
3 Smother
2 Putrefy
2 Unearth* (Teh nutz with Witness and Troll)

//SB// 15 *(Entirely reworked and revamped to beat Solidarity more consistently than before)
4 Wretch
3 Hymns
3 Chains* (New addition that combats Solidarity/Draw based control extremely well)
3 Engineered Plague* (Probably should become Infest)
2 Darkblast

In fact, this will be the version I'm running tonight, since Viper isn't legal yet, and I still don't have any. I will probably come and post my record and highlights, but not a report, as it won't be worth anything, not playing against good decks, except for 1 guy.

Hopefully this thread will pick up some more people and viewers to share some ideas. I'm out.

[Alex_Van_R]

Goblins: if you can't block a turn one lackey, you can still win the game, but it's just harder than normal. When I know I'll be playing against goblins, I don't hesitate to mulligan into a hand to deal with the lackey. I chose to play Crime/Punishment over Engineered Plague because of Disenchant in goblindecks. Even in this matchup, Haunting Echoes saved me a lot of times.
For example: I killed at least one copy of almost every goblin, and there were also some disenchants in the grave. After Echoes, my opponent only had Kiki-Jiki and Aether Vial, while I had a butload of removal.
Threshold: Game one is good game most of the times, because they don't know the deck. Haunting Echoes helps a lot in this matchup (obviously). Game two, I have C/P as some extra removal, and it has been working fine. Before I played C/P, I even boarded in Cranial Extraction against Meddling Mage and Mystic Enforcer! I even consider of doing that, even though I play C/P. Again, Haunting Echoes wins this match for you. The red version of threshold isn't even a problem for control Rock. You have Ravenous Baloth and they have target that can be destroyed with ease. Fledgling Dragon isn't Mystic Enforcer.

I'm actually a bit disappointed too, because you switched to the aggroversion of the Rock.:frown:

[Anarky87]

Played in a tourney tonight with the list I posted earlier and split for first. Round one I played ancient WW with Empyreal Armor and shadow stuff: 2-0. Round two I played some U/R/W...thing, anyway, I won the first game, lost the second to drawing a ton of land, and won the third game: 2-1. Round three I played some U/W T2 thing that played alot of flying creatures and then Pride of the Clouds or something. I won game one, game two I couldn't get any mana and game three was the same:1-2. Top 4. I played the URW thing-a-ma-bob again, anywho, had the same record, pulling it out in game three: 2-1. Finals. The finals was against the WW guy from before. I decided to split with him, since I was starved for food, plus he and I are pretty good friends and have played for a long time. So we split the store credit between us. The deck performed pretty well, it usually did all the things I wanted it to do.

So my overall record was 3-1-1, but it was a pretty janky tourney to begin with. Just thought I'd post the results though for you guys.

[Alex_Van_R]

Legacy @ Outpost Ghent (20/08/2006) By Alexander Van Ransbeeck

Hello all,

Instead of being one of those freaks who concentrate themselves on qualifying for nationals, I fell in love again with the legacyformat. And as you might already know, I’m a die-hard Rock Fanatic. Not Rock as in music but as a deck. Together with some freaks on the Source and the Mana Drain, I came to a final decklist, which makes it possible to be a good contender in the legacyformat. Here you can read a little primer about the deck I wrote a month before the tournament. What you can read over there are the results of testing the deck for more than a year in the format. However, I made some changes in the deck, so here’s the decklist I used at Ghent:

Maindeck:
9x Forest
5x Swamp
4x Llanowar Wastes
4x Bayou

4x Birds of Paradise
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
4x Wall of Blossoms
3x Eternal Witness
2x Troll Ascetic
3x Ravenous Baloth

3x Duress
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Living Wish
3x Putrefy
2x Haunting Echoes
4x Pernicious Deed

Sideboard:
1x Dust Bowl
1x Withered Wretch
1x Eternal Witness
1x Bone Shredder
1x Troll Ascetic
1x Ravenous Baloth
1x Urborg Shambler
1x Genesis
1x Indrik Stomphowler
3x Crime/Punishment
3x Cranial Extraction

· Why only 22 lands? Simply, because it’s the right number in my oppinion. I rarely suffer from manaproblems. I have early drops like Birds of Paradise and Sakura-Tribe Elder to gain some mana, and I can survive on 4/5 mana.
· Wall of Blossoms? Yeah, it’s the draw engine in the deck, it’s a good blocker and you can sacrifice it to Cabal Therapy as well.
· Eternal Witness is probably one of the best cards in the deck, as it recurs all your threats and it’s still a creature.
· Ravenous Baloth can gain you some life and gives you a big body to slam with. Troll Ascetic is the best creature ever! It’s untargetability makes it a great contender in the format, which is filled with removal like swords to plowshares.
· As combo is the hardest matchup for the Rock, I’ve added Duress and Cabal Therapy to fight it. Haunting Echoes helps this matchup as well.
· Putrefy helps you to get rid of some pesky artifacts or creatures. Pernicious Deed is the ultimate boardsweeper and oviously my favorite card.
· Living Wish serves as a tutor in the deck, getting you the creatures or lands you need in any situation you can think about.
· Dust Bowl punishes decks for playing multiple colors, while Withered Wretch wrecks decks which rely on their graveyard, like threshold. Bone Shredder kills creatures and works nice with Eternal Witness and Genesis.
· Urborg Shambler was ment for the Alluren matchup, but it works against W/B Disruption as well, killing Dark Confidant and Nantuko Shade. Indrik Stomphowler is in my oppinion better than Viridian Zealot because it’s a fat beast you can sacrifice for Baloth and because its ability isn’t acitvated but triggered.
· Cranial Extraction improves the combomatchup, and has proven to be a good card in many games.
· Crime/Punishment is the card I’ve added. I took out Engineered Plague, because goblins isn’t played as much as before and because I still have a good matchup against goblins. Most goblindecks play Disenchant or Goblin King, so the card isn’t that good anymore. C/P helps you in so many matchups, from threshold and goblins to affinity and rifter. I like it a lot.


At the tournament:

Round 1: Tom ‘El Tombo’ De Wael, playing W/B Disruption
Everyone knows Tom De Wael. If not, it’s a big shame! You should feel embarrassed! Tom wasn’t playing Alluren as most people expected. He was playing W/B Disruption, which is both a good and a bad matchup for me, but that depends on the first 3 turns. If they can play a turn 1 Hypnotic Specter or a turn 2 Hymn to Tourach, I have a hard time dealing with it and I’ll lose 80% of the times.

Game 1:
Tom started of well, destroying all my land, keeping me on 2 swamps and dealing me lethal damage before I ever got to do someting exciting.

Side in: 3x C/P Side out: 2x Haunting Echoes, 1x Living Wish

Game 2:
This time, I was pretty lucky. I was able to cast a turn one Cabal Therapy, naming Hymn to Tourach and actually hitting one. The creatures that hit the board didn’t stay alive very long, an I was able to wish for Urborg Shambler and cast it. Tom only drew land, while I kept slapping him with my Shambly Shambler.

Game 3:
Tom started with a Swamp, and passed the turn, which enabled me to cast Cabal Therapy again on Hymn to Tourach. Yeah! I started attacking with Troll Ascetic and Eternal Witness, while destroying his creatures. The last creature Tom was able to cast, was Hypnotic Specter, but he faced the deadly Golgari spell named Putrefy. I knew Tom was playing Perish (and a German version of it: Untergang!), so I had to be fast with my beatings. I had Birds of Paradise in play and C/P in my hand, so just to avoid Perish, I played Crime and took Hyppie from Tom’s graveyard and finished the game.

1-0-0

Round 2: Tom Denduynder, playing U/W control
One of my friends lost against this guy in round one, so I had to be carefull. Lucky for me, it was only control and not Landstill.

Game 1: I played an early Troll Ascetic, but it faced Wing Shards the next turn. Pernicious Deed gets countered, Haunting Echoes gets countered and Tom cycled Decree of Justice and made some tokens. I didn’t draw anything but land, and Tom revealed his hand, holding 2x Mana Leak and 2x Force of Will.

Side in: 3x C/P, 3x Cranial Extraction Side out: 4x Wall of Blossoms, 1x Putrefy, 1x Living Wish

Game 2: I started of well with a few Ravenous Baloths, but either they were the target of Swords to Plowshares or they were removed in another way. However, I took him down to 6 life with 2 Sakura-Tribe Elders, but then Exalted Angel hit the table, gaining him 4 life. I blew Pernicious Deed, but Tom played another Angel. I played another Deed, and blew it again. Things were looking good now, but he started recurring Eternal Dragon. I didn’t draw any Cranial Extraction or other removal, so I scooped.

1-1-0

Round 3: Cliff Van Damme, playing Boros Deck Wins
I knew every card Cliff was playing, as I had seen his deck before the tournament. This would be a good matchup for me.

Game 1:
Cliff started beating me with some small creatures, but they got blown away by Pernicious Deed. Baloth had to face some burn, but I gained some life and Eternal Witness let it come back and they attacked for lethal damage in the next turn.

Side in: 3x Crime/Punishment Side out: 1x Haunting Echoes, 2x Duress

Game 2:
Cliff played some early creatures, but they faced Pernicious Deed and C/P. Haunting Echoes removed most of his cards and he had to topdeck something if he wanted to survive. Well, he didn’t and again, Ravenous Baloth sealed the deal.

2-1-0

Round 4: Tom Hens, playing Rifter
This is my favorite matchup, my best matchup and whatever positive comment you can mention about it. Before the tournament, I helped tweaking his deck against combo and other decks. He defeated 2 combodecks this far, but lost against UGw threshold.

Game 1:
I started of with Duress and Cabal Therapy. A few turns later, Humility hit the table, but Deed blew it away. Tom made the mistake of cycling Decree of justive during his own turn, so I played Deed again and sacrificed it to destroy them. Haunting Echoes sealed the deal for me.

Side in: 3x Crime/Punishment, 3x Cranial Extraction Side out: 4x Wall of Blossoms, 1x Living Wish, 1x Putrefy

Game 2:
Tom got to play Humility, but I didn’t care since I had enough removal in my hand. I played Cranial Extraction on Eternal Dragon. Tom cycled Decree and made some tokens, but they faced the destructive power of Pernicious Deed. I cast Haunting Echoes, removing his graveyard and filtering his library. After that, I cast Cranial Extraction on Lightning Rift and Tom scooped because he didn’t have any winconditions left.

3-1-0

Because there would be a top 4 playoff, I had to win the last round to ensure my spot into it.

Round 5: Kirsten Baert, playing WBG Land/Handdisruption
Kirsten was playing landdestruction, which isn’t a very good matchup for me.

Game 1:
Kirsten started of at insane speed with land destruction, but I was able to topdeck Birds of Paradise and I recovered. I killed him with Troll Ascetic.

Side in: nothing

Game 2:
I played Cabal Therapy naming Hymn to Tourach, and I hit one. I saw Terravore too, but I didn’t had a creature to pay the flashbackcost of Cabal Therapy. I was stuck on two land and with 3x Ravenous Baloth in my hand. I finally got a third land and I cast Pernicious Deed, but he destroyed my third land again and I wasn’t able anymore to blow Deed.

Side in: 3x Cranial Extraction Side out: 2x Haunting Echoes, 1x Ravenous Baloth

Game 3:
I played Therapy again naming Hymn, but he didn’t have one. I did see Eternal Witness and Dark Confidant, wrecking my thoughts of playing Cranial Extraction on his ‘only’ creature Terravore. I was pretty lucky that Kirsten was stuck on 2 lands and I flashed back Therapy naming witness. My creatures came in for lethal damage.

4-1-0
Yay! Top 4! Woohoo! Looks like the testing was good for something after all. Baptist Mathys from Magic Club Ghent suggested of making a split for the whole top 4. We would still play for DCI-points, but everyone got 25€ and some boosters, which was fine for me.

I lost against Tist’s UGw Threshold with 2-1, but I didn’t care. I played well on this tournament and I won some money and some boosters, making it able for me to play tournaments and drafts. J

This was the metagame, with a lot of combodecks and not a single affintydeck:
1x UGw Threshold (top 4)
1x The Rock (top 4)
1x Monoblack control (top 4)
1x Rifter
1x WBG Land/Handdisruption
1x W/B Disruption
1x High Tide
1x Spring Tide
1x Salvager-Gamekeeper
1x Iggy Pop
1x Survival (with Volrath’s Shapeshifter)
1x 45 Landdeck
1x Monored burn
1x Boros Deck Wins
1x U/W control
1x Random deck, untitled
2x Alluren
4x Goblins (1 in top 4)

Props:
· MCG, Outpost for organising a great tournament
· Tombo, for giving me tips for my deck and calling me ‘flapdrol’ ;-)
· Anarky and Majestyk from the Source, Nietschze from the Mana Drain
· Stevie, for driving the car
· Me, for not making that much mistakes
· Tist and TomHR, for calling me The Dark Master J
· The interesting talks/thrashtalks during and between the rounds
· Guy, for checking my article for grammar and mistakes
· So many other props

Slops:
· None

I hoped you all liked this report. All comments are welcome! See you all at the next legacytournament and maybe at Nationals.

Alexander Van Ransbeeck, the ‘not anymore scrub in the legacyformat’

[Anarky87]

· Anarky and Majestyk from the Source, Nietschze from the Mana Drain


Yay, I got props! =) Any reason you eschewed fetchlands for more basics?

[Alex_Van_R]

I didn't have any fetchlands. :(

[quicksilver]

I didn't have any fetchlands. :(

Just a note that it is genrerally more helpful to not talk about certain card choices because you don't have the cards you want. Of course if the card is some 5 cent card that is sells for like 50 bucks (cough:Sea drake:cough) then you can talk about replacements since most other people will also not run a card because of money. But if a card is reasonable to get (like fetch lands) but you just don't have them, then it is not very useful to talk about builds that are suited to your collection, since most other people will find it far more helpful to see ideal builds since their collection is probably not the same as yours.

[Alex_Van_R]

Actually, the reason I didn't play them, was because I didn't had the money to buy them...

[worsel]

Actually, the reason I didn't play them, was because I didn't had the money to buy them...

Therefore, my question to you is:

If you owned 4 of every card ever printed, what would your decklist be?

In other words, what, in your opinion, is the optimal decklist?

.

[Alex_Van_R]

The optimal decklist, for me: just replace 4x Llanowar Wastes with 2x Wooded Foothills and 2x Bloodstained Mire.
Add one Cabal Therapy, cut one land or one Duress.

[Shriekmaw]

Legacy @ Outpost Ghent (20/08/2006)

Maindeck:
9x Forest
5x Swamp
4x Llanowar Wastes
4x Bayou

4x Birds of Paradise
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
4x Wall of Blossoms
3x Eternal Witness
2x Troll Ascetic
3x Ravenous Baloth

3x Duress
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Living Wish
3x Putrefy
2x Haunting Echoes
4x Pernicious Deed

Sideboard:
1x Dust Bowl
1x Withered Wretch
1x Eternal Witness
1x Bone Shredder
1x Troll Ascetic
1x Ravenous Baloth
1x Urborg Shambler
1x Genesis
1x Indrik Stomphowler
3x Crime/Punishment
3x Cranial Extraction


1x UGw Threshold (top 4)
1x The Rock (top 4)
1x Monoblack control (top 4)
1x Rifter
1x WBG Land/Handdisruption
1x W/B Disruption
1x High Tide
1x Spring Tide
1x Salvager-Gamekeeper
1x Iggy Pop
1x Survival (with Volrath’s Shapeshifter)
1x 45 Landdeck
1x Monored burn
1x Boros Deck Wins
1x U/W control
1x Random deck, untitled
2x Alluren
4x Goblins (1 in top 4)


I would like to start off by making some comments about the deck in general.

It seems like the right number of land is around 22-23. Llanowar Wastes shouldn't be in there at all, I would play Overgrown Tombs or a combination of fetchlands. The creature base looks pretty solid, I would like to see a couple of copies of Grave-Shell Scarab in there. Maybe drop 1 sakura and 1 wall of blossoms to add those in. It seems to be a very strong card in a control deck like "The Rock".

The metagame that you have listed as the decks that people played in this tournament seems god aweful for the most part. There were a few good decks, but overrall the metagame seemed very poor than the ones I've have seen for the most part.

The Rock or various versions of Truffle Shuffle seems strong in an aggro heavy environment, but with the rise of combo decks, I'm not quite sure how good this deck is.

You may ‘not anymore scrub in the legacyformat' , but I still feel that this deck does need some tweaks to make it really successful in a large tournament field.

[Alex_Van_R]

Grave-Shell is good, but I already have 2 expensive cards (echoes) and 3 semi-expensive (baloth) cards in the deck. You need to have 6 mana when you cast him. :/ In extended, it is strong, but in legacy it itsn't that good because of Swords to Plowshares, which is played in all decks that pack white.

[Majestyk1136]

I would like to start off by making some comments about the deck in general.

It seems like the right number of land is around 22-23. Llanowar Wastes shouldn't be in there at all, I would play Overgrown Tombs or a combination of fetchlands. The creature base looks pretty solid, I would like to see a couple of copies of Grave-Shell Scarab in there. Maybe drop 1 sakura and 1 wall of blossoms to add those in. It seems to be a very strong card in a control deck like "The Rock".

The metagame that you have listed as the decks that people played in this tournament seems god aweful for the most part. There were a few good decks, but overrall the metagame seemed very poor than the ones I've have seen for the most part.

The Rock or various versions of Truffle Shuffle seems strong in an aggro heavy environment, but with the rise of combo decks, I'm not quite sure how good this deck is.

You may ‘not anymore scrub in the legacyformat' , but I still feel that this deck does need some tweaks to make it really successful in a large tournament field.

The deck is A) very dependent on proper piloting and testing prior to picking it up and attempting to navigate it through a tournament and B) able to be customized to defeat given metagames by switching a few pieces of the MD/Board for more disruptive components.

As far as the trouble with combo goes, Therapy is one of the strongest cards available to you but depends (obv.) on knowing what the critical components in every other major deck are. The 1-2 punch of Duress and Therapy are frequently enough to buy you some time in which to do serious damage prior to boarding.

[El_Tombo]

The metagame that you have listed as the decks that people played in this tournament seems god aweful for the most part. There were a few good decks, but overrall the metagame seemed very poor than the ones I've have seen for the most part.



how do you mean god aweful ?

most topmetagamedecks were present with decks that continue to place people in top 8's at large and small events alike:

solidarity, threshold, gobo, salvager game, iggy pop, ...

sure there were some random elements present, but aren't there in your meta ?

advocating to play overgrown tombs is just daft
the main strenght of the deck is that it's hardly vulnerable to wasteland
the Bayous + fetches and STE are more than enough fix
(he should have indeed played fetches and should learn to open his mouth and ASK people before going to a tourney)

you are right that it's a deck that needs constant fixing and tuning, but that's because it's a typical metagamedeck that needs a player that KNOWS (at least) the major deckarchetypes and which ones to expect the most at a given time (see also comment by majestic and that's why I choose for Deadguy (listed as B/W discard) because I suspected quite some people to be there with combo decks and gobo, which is an ideal meta for Pikula/deadguy)

I dunno about graveshell too
sure, the carddraw is nice and all, but the 4 life of Baloth is usually more needed than an extra card
besides, with the witness and genesis the deck can generate enough cardadvantage given enough time (which is what the discard is for)

anyway,
keep up the good work with the deck alex
you have shown once more what so many have shown and will show:
legacy is a format that is a real haven for the "rogue" deckbuilders out there that take time to take a look at the top tier decks and try to find decks from yore or build new ones that look for openngs in a given metagame

[SuckerPunch]

This deck, and Truffle Shuffle, are just screaming to abuse Lotus Blossom once it sees print.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29205&d=1156305646

I could see that card pushing these two decks into tier one.

[Alex_Van_R]

And why do you think that card will be good?
Do we have to waste 4 cards to have 7 mana on turn 4? I had situations in which I had 6 mana on turn 3...

[SuckerPunch]

Because both decks prefer to deed everything off the board by turn 4 or so, then play a ton of high cc threats post deed.

For these two specific decks, this is a far far superior Dark Ritual, as Dark Ritual provided only 2 extra mana, and only black mana at that, hence why Ritual is not run in a lot of builds.

[Alex_Van_R]

If we need to blow Deed by turn 4...
We would simply play it turn 3 and blow it turn 4.

[Majestyk1136]

Because both decks prefer to deed everything off the board by turn 4 or so, then play a ton of high cc threats post deed.

For these two specific decks, this is a far far superior Dark Ritual, as Dark Ritual provided only 2 extra mana, and only black mana at that, hence why Ritual is not run in a lot of builds.
No Rock-style deck would ever consider trading 1 card for the prospect of 3 mana 3 turns later. You're right in saying that no decks like this would play Dark Ritual either - a net gain of 2 mana for 1 card is terrible in a control deck!

You can still play high CC threats after Deed because your "high CC" threat consists typically of a creature that costs "GG2" and quickly goes on to win the game.

Cut the flames. ~ Nightmare

[SuckerPunch]

The card serves an arrary of applications in this deck, whether letting you cast and blow deed the same turn, before your opponent destroys or bounces it, letting you regenerate troll ascetic the same turn you blow deed, letting you living wish a card and play it that same turn, or letting you cast eternal witness to recover that haunting echoes and casting it that same turn before they play another threat to try and recover, or casting some other piece of disruption along with nice fat threat. When you're playing a deck with such a high curve, solid acceleration pieces like this, esp ones that so conveniently sidestep deed, provide green mana as well as black mana, and that provide three extra mana rather than two, warrant consideration.

[Majestyk1136]

One of the nice things about this deck is that your creatures are somewhat expendable, obviating the need for the Turbo-Deed. If your Troll dies to your Deed that needs to be somewhat larger than you otherwise would like it has multiple routes of returning to play. It's all about inevitability and long term card advantage.

Dark Ritual = Combo deck
Sakura-Tribe Elder = Control deck

Just out of curiosity, what would you cut from either my or alex's list for Ritual?

[SuckerPunch]

It's not just to regenerate creatures during the turn you deed.

As for what to cut to test this card, I'm not sure, which ever card you've been the least happy to draw.

I'm not even saying that the card is an autoinclude, just that it seems to be powerful in the deck and you guys should take a look at it.

I say it's powerful because here's a list of the cards this has great synergy with...

Living Wish - Lets you play the bomb that you fetched back right then and there.

Eternal Witness - Lets you play the bomb (Haunting Echoes etc) that you fetched back right then and there.

Deed - Letting you blow deed the same turn you cast it. (Or regenerating Ascetic the turn you blow deed).

The above three cards have one thing in common. They're all can have massive game altering effects, but they force you to spend two whole turn just to get their effect. You spend one turn to Wish Haunting Echoes, and another turn casting it, you spend one turn playing deed and another whole turn blowing it, etc.

In effect, by using Lotus Bloom to speed up the effect by a turn, you just time walked your opponent, while also avoiding removal for Deed and Discard/Duress taking out the bomb you got with Wish or Witness.

And seeing as how all three of the cards above are played in multiples, often as 4 ofs, you can see why I think the card has potential in the deck.

[Anarky87]

You spend one turn to Wish Haunting Echoes, and another turn casting it

Actually that play isn't even legal within the contexts of Living Wish. Now if you're Wishing for a Witness to recur the Echoes you already played, that's a whole other story.

[troopatroop]

I can't see how the card is good at all, but it will be interesting to see what he says. Obviously no matter what his testing results will be positive.

[scrumdogg]

Until he posts a decklist & tests it with actual live, verifiable (or MWS even) people against a gauntlet of more than his special friend's 472 card Battle of Wits deck, he should be actively ignored.
Lotus Blossom in Rock, what a preposterous idea, even if you didn't have to wait 4 turns to get it & the mana (making it semi-useful on Turn 1 or 2 at best, possibly one of the WORST potential mid-late game topdecks I can conceive), even if you didn't have this come into play on your upkeep. When you remove the last counter, making it very hard for you do anything useful in what is mostly a sorcery speed deck - bonus points if you can explain to me how you're going to use this in your upkeep to cast Living Wish or Haunting Echoes (which you fetched with your Living Wish, right?) or Deed before your opponent Naturalizes/Disenchants etc. To be fair, you can blow it in response to set up 3 regen shields on your Troll....
The Rock has traditionally been good A) in the hands of very good pilots (gratz to Alex) B) against very specific metagames in which you craft this or C) when it can aim squarely at 2 of the 3 main archetypes (aggro, combo, & control for anyone unaware). When Rock (any version) has to aim at all three archetypes, it tends to be too diluted and do poorly. Current Legacy, for the most part, revolves around combo and aggro/aggro-control, meaning that Rock can be very, very good indeed. Just hope that Landstill (and ironically Rock....) don't become very popular again or you will have a 'diluted' metagame again....

Chill. ~ Nightmare

[SuckerPunch]

...even if....you didn't have this come into play on your upkeep, when you remove the last counter, making it very hard for you do anything useful in what is mostly a sorcery speed deck - bonus fucking points if you can explain to me how you're going to use this in your upkeep

How about you read the post and card you're commenting on next time scrumdogg. Why in god's name would I use the card in my upkeep. And if my opponent is stupid enough to blow the disenchant on the Blossom rather than my Deed, why even bother finishing the game.

If you continue to perpetuate a flame war in this thread, I will be forced to warn you. ~ Nightmare

[Phantom]

@ All: wait until Suckerpunch posts the results.
@ Suckerpunch: Test and post the results.
@ All: even though nobody agrees with SuckerPunch (not only on this forum, but on starcitygames as well), don't flame him (too much).
@ Suckerpunch: You played Rock for 6 months, right? I'm playing it for about 2 years now.

Try to keep the thread clean, please.

QFT.

Flaming has never accomplished anything.

On a different note I've been working on the aggro version of The Rock (over on the Dark Viper thread) and can attest to the insanity of some of the cards in this deck (namely Troll and Deed) but I have some questions about the board:

1) Why no The Tabernacle at The Pendrall Vale? Seems like it would fit nicely.

2) You don't have any wish cards to help the Solidarity matchup. Mesmeric Fiend seems downight fiendish. Zing!

3) If there's a ton of control in your area, or a lot of Humility (the card or the emotion) try Phantom Centaur (also good for deadguy and burn, but bad against swords) or Treetop Village (rapes Humility) or even Gigapede (lots of strong matchups and damn good synergy here).

4) I haven't played the deck enough to know if this is viable, but would Thresh creatures be out of line in the board? 'Goose and Krosan Beast seem like candidates.

5) Seems like the white splash would have some kickass combo wish targets, like Glowrider and True Believer.

Guess that's all. Thoughts?

Edit: Genisis > Stronhold. I agree, but how do you get it in the yard? Do you always have to hardcast it?

[Nightmare]

I'm going to step through this very carefully, and perhaps a few of you will listen.

1)
How about you read the post and card you're commenting on next time scrumdogg. Why in god's name would I use the card in my upkeep. And if my opponent is stupid enough to blow the disenchant on the Blossom rather than my Deed, why even bother finishing the game.Reading the card is savage tech. So is reading people's posts without getting pissed off. Lotus Bloom (not Blossom) has its last Suspend Counter removed during your upkeep. That means it comes into play during your upkeep. That means there is a window of time (your upkeep) where your opponent will have the ability to remove the card from play (via Disenchant) and you, with very little in the way of Instants, will have nothing to say about it.

2) Flaming ends NOW. I am in the process of cleaning up the last page of this thread and if it continues, the thread gets locked and warnings ensue. Scrum, you've been down this road before, you should know better.

[Nightmare]

Yeah yeah yeah, sue me for never playing the card. I have no idea what card I was thinking of. I'm glad you all jumped on the opportunity to correct me. The rest of the points still stand.


Assholes.

[Phantom]

Yeah yeah yeah, sue me for never playing the card. I have no idea what card I was thinking of. I'm glad you all jumped on the opportunity to correct me. The rest of the points still stand.


Assholes.

We might not have jumped on you so hard if you hadn't called everyone on here a moron for not knowing the card :)

[Nightmare]

Hey, I laughed at myself way harder than you guys did, I guarantee it. I guess I should take my own advice and RTFC before I tell everyone else to.

Oh and by the way, for some reason I was thinking of Death Cloud, which does make you sacrifice.

[Alex_Van_R]

On a different note I've been working on the aggro version of The Rock (over on the Dark Viper thread) and can attest to the insanity of some of the cards in this deck (namely Troll and Deed) but I have some questions about the board:

1) Why no The Tabernacle at The Pendrall Vale? Seems like it would fit nicely.
It's usefull against aggrodecks like goblins, but that's about it. It's a good wishtarget, but... goblins play Wasteland and I don't play Life from the Loam.

2) You don't have any wish cards to help the Solidarity matchup. Mesmeric Fiend seems downight fiendish. Zing!
I already thought about this card for a long time, as it also works against non-combodecks as well. Removing Ringleaders etc. is nice. I would cut Duress for it.

3) If there's a ton of control in your area, or a lot of Humility (the card or the emotion) try Phantom Centaur (also good for deadguy and burn, but bad against swords) or Treetop Village (rapes Humility) or even Gigapede (lots of strong matchups and damn good synergy here).
I can't see why Phantom Centaur would be good against control.
Manlands under humility become 1/1:

Q: If I had a Humility in play, what would happen when I activated my Mishra's Factory? Would it become a 2/2 or a 1/1?

Thanks,
Steve

A: Steve,

It's 1/1. The activation of the Mishra's Factory sets its initial characteristics, which are then modified by the continuous effect of the Humility.

- Sheldon

4) I haven't played the deck enough to know if this is viable, but would Thresh creatures be out of line in the board? 'Goose and Krosan Beast seem like candidates.
Goose gets killed by Deed, Krosan Beast is too easily targetted by removal. Baloth and Troll server as beatdowncreatures as well.

5) Seems like the white splash would have some kickass combo wish targets, like Glowrider and True Believer.
True Believer costs 2 white mana. That's too much for just a splash. Glowrider would be nice, but Cabal Therapy, Duress/Fiend, Cranial Extraction and Haunting Echoes is already enough.

Guess that's all. Thoughts?

Edit: Genisis > Stronhold. I agree, but how do you get it in the yard? Do you always have to hardcast it?
Cabal Therapy, targetting yourself, naming Genesis. Casting Genesis, Blowing Deed for 5. Casting Genesis, sacrificing it to flashback Therapy. Casting Genesis, playing Putrefy on it.

[quicksilver]

Manlands under humility become 1/1

nope, they do not.

Phantom centaur is also a 3/3 under humility.


Q: If I had a Humility in play, what would happen when I activated my Mishra's Factory? Would it become a 2/2 or a 1/1?

Thanks,
Steve

A: Steve,

It's 1/1. The activation of the Mishra's Factory sets its initial characteristics, which are then modified by the continuous effect of the Humility.

- Sheldon

This ruling is out of date.


From the comprehensive rules:

418.5a The values of an object’s characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object, then applying continuous effects in a series of layers in the following order: (1) copy effects (see rule 503, “Copying Objects”); (2) control-changing effects; (3) text-changing effects; (4) type-, subtype-, and supertype-changing effects; (5) all other continuous effects, except those that change power and/or toughness; and (6) power- and/or toughness-changing effects.
Inside each layer from 1 through 5, apply effects from characteristic-setting abilities first, then all other effects. Inside layer 6, apply effects in a series of sublayers in the following order: (6a) effects from characteristic-setting abilities; (6b) all other effects not specifically applied in 6c, 6d, or 6e; (6c) changes from counters; (6d) effects from static abilities that modify power and/or toughness but don’t set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value; and (6e) effects that switch a creature’s power and toughness. See also the rules for timestamp order and dependency (rules 418.5b–418.5g).


This how it works with Humility and Factory:
Both Humility and Factory's power/toughness setting abilities would take place in layer 6b so they are applied in time stamp order. So whichever one happened most recently (humility coming into play or activating the factory would take precedence). So normally a factory would be a 2/2 that can't tap for mana or pump when a humility is in play and you turned it into a creature. The only time it would be a 1/1 is if humility came into play after factory was a creature and only for the duration of that turn, future activations would make it a 2/2.

So humility seldom effects manlands power/toughness.




Since counters are applied in Layer 6c and Humility's applies in layer 6b, the counters would not be overwritten by a humility. So for instance say you have a 2/2 creature with 3 +1/+1 counters, it would be a 4/4 under humility. Note that this is always true whether or not the counters where on it before humility came into play.
So Phantom centaur is a 3/3 under humility.

[Nightmare]

Ok. This one I swear to god I have right. Quicksilver is right here, SCG is wrong. Well, not wrong, but out of date. Recently, the rules for Humility have changed, and everything is based off a new Layering system with Timestamps.

Humility is in play. It sets all creatures to 1/1 duders.
You activate a Mishra's Factory. Since it's characteristics were set more recently than the Humility came into play, and their effects happen in the same layer, you have a 2/2 Assembly worker with no abilities that ceases to be a creature at EOT.
If you play an Arcbound Worker with Humility in play, it is a 2/2.

[quicksilver]

Link

If you see my above post, you will see the up to date rules, as well as me quoting myself as to exactly why humility works the way it does.

[Alex_Van_R]

Anyway, why should we bother about the rifter matchup? It's a good matchup. You already win that game.

[Phantom]

Thanks for the responses Alex:

-As for Tabernacle, you wouldn't wish for it if they have an untapped Waste in play, so Goblins would at least have to go through one activation. It's actually a pretty good card against other aggro decks. Tying up Thresh's or Angel Stompy's land is nice. Still, it may not be worth a slot.

-I was really only advocating Phantom Centaur against Humilty, but I guess it works pretty damn well against any control not running StP (Red Thresh for example).

-Krosan Beast is twice the clock against combo that Baloth is. I'm not sure if that's relevant in your combo matchups, but I'm pretty sure it is. I guess this is moot if you add fiend. Also, I should have known better than to suggest goose to a deck running Troll. Especially as a wish target.

-True Believer = RTFC: me

-I've always been curious about cranial extraction. It's such complete shit against Solidarity. Is it in there to wreck IGGy? How good a job does it do?

-All the ways you described killing Genisis seemed very card or mana intensive. Still, I guess in the matchups where you're wishing for him, he's pretty much a house.

EDIT: Goddamn. 8000 people beat me to the Humility punch. Rule nazi's smell blood in the water on this thread today lol.

[Alex_Van_R]

Thanks for the responses Alex:

-As for Tabernacle, you wouldn't wish for it if they have an untapped Waste in play, so Goblins would at least have to go through one activation. It's actually a pretty good card against other aggro decks. Tying up Thresh's or Angel Stompy's land is nice. Still, it may not be worth a slot.
I just don't think it's the right way to waste a slot for Tabernacle. You already win against aggro anyway.

-I was really only advocating Phantom Centaur against Humilty, but I guess it works pretty damn well against any control not running StP (Red Thresh for example).
You already defeat Red threshold with ease.

-Krosan Beast is twice the clock against combo that Baloth is. I'm not sure if that's relevant in your combo matchups, but I'm pretty sure it is. I guess this is moot if you add fiend. Also, I should have known better than to suggest goose to a deck running Troll. Especially as a wish target.
Most of the times, you try to disrupt your combo-opponent and after that, you start attacking.

-True Believer = RTFC: me

-I've always been curious about cranial extraction. It's such complete shit against Solidarity. Is it in there to wreck IGGy? How good a job does it do?
It isn't shit against Solidarity. You have at least 2 targets to name (Cunning Wish/High Tide), which seals the deal most of the times.

-All the ways you described killing Genisis seemed very card or mana intensive. Still, I guess in the matchups where you're wishing for him, he's pretty much a house.
It is a house. :)
Returning a card via Genesis is mana intensive as well.

EDIT: Goddamn. 8000 people beat me to the Humility punch. Rule nazi's smell blood in the water on this thread today lol.

[Majestyk1136]

@Tabernacle: No. You are a creature deck yourself, the anti-synergy is too painful.

@Centaur: He could be useful in a mirror match... maybe. Baloth is almost always going to be better however.

@Krosan Beast: Your opportunity to win the game against combo lies in disruption. Solidarity has like 100000 answers to a dood. Like winning more quickly than you can achieve threshold.

@Cranial Extraction: Too little, too late. Assuming you can resolve a 4 mana sorcery against Solidarity why wouldn't you play an Armageddon effect against them (Tsunami) which will in essence win the game rather than forestall the inevitable?

@Genesis: I will Quote my own primer (http://www.blackgoldsports.com/Primer_Legacy_Rock.htm):

Genesis - Genesis is the premier method available for the Rock to recur its deadliest threats should you get into a situation where attrition has become an issue. Ramping up to the sort of mana where you are able to regrow and play a Ravenous Baloth each turn is likely in some matchups. You even have several methods of conveniently getting Genesis into the graveyard once you’ve wished for it. You can Cabal Therapy yourself for Genesis if your opponent is out of a hand to hit, you can sacrifice it to flashback Cabal Therapy if you need it to get into the graveyard or you can just rely on it being a Durkwood Boars until your opponent is forced to kill it.

I honestly thought the debate between Stronghold/Genesis was all done. Here's my thoughts on the Stronghold:

Volrath’s Stronghold – Another Wish target of the past is Volrath’s Stronghold. There are several creatures in the Rock that enable the “drawback” of Volrath’s Stronghold (the placing of a creature from your graveyard on your library, effectively replacing your draw step) to be negated. Recurring a Wall of Blossoms or Eternal Witness with Volrath's Stronghold means that you will continue to see new cards either from the top of your deck or a recycled card from your graveyard. Unfortunately, Volrath’s Stronghold is not included in this deck as a Wish target due to the omnipresence of Wasteland. Its legendary status is largely irrelevant as the odds of running into another Volrath's Stronghold are fairly slim but the fact that it requires you to sacrifice a land drop to get it into play in a format so brutally driven by tempo is a big strike against it. The Rock is a mana-hungry deck and can’t afford to waste time on precious land drops, whereas Genesis puts the card directly in your hand for the same amount of mana.

[parallax]

Is Buried Alive any good in this deck? Combined with Genesis and Eternal Witness, it can set up some insane cards advantage.

[Anarky87]

Is Buried Alive any good in this deck? Combined with Genesis and Eternal Witness, it can set up some insane cards advantage.

I'd say no, for the most part. Because if you're spending the time and mana to go get creatures to put in your yard so you can bounce them back to your hand and THEN play them...Why aren't you just winning instead? That or simply playing the creatures from your hand. The deck is more about endurance and inevitability. It plays its threats and disruption over the course of the early/middle game, and the recursion is there for a second wave in the late game that will usually finish the opponent off. Or, if you're playing against combo, to quickly abuse your disruption to its fullest in the shortest amount of time as possible.

[El_Tombo]

[QUOTE=Majestyk1136;86916
@Cranial Extraction: Too little, too late. Assuming you can resolve a 4 mana sorcery against Solidarity why wouldn't you play an Armageddon effect against them (Tsunami) which will in essence win the game rather than forestall the inevitable?

[/QUOTE]

Maybe because in most metagames people actually also play other combo decks than solidarity

you are absolutely right that Tsunami is a fair card, but its only good against solidarity
cranial may be less effective against solidarity, but since this deck can play it by turn 3 it can be an extra, game deciding card against decks like salvager game (cranial the LED = GG) or homebrewn combostuff

so I would say as a strategy against combo decks, cranial is a more versatile sideboard card, espescially in a diverse field

[Anarky87]

I never found Cranial Extraction to be that hot against Solidarity anyway. Even casting it turn 3 was way too late, as they just countered it. Sometimes even through disruption. Which is why I chose Chains and that worked wonders against them. I never worried about Iggy-Pop, because it seemed that if I could disrupt them just enough, it would throw their game completely off. In a totally random meta, I could see Cranial maybe making a couple slots. It works in my meta, where I see hardly any Tier decks, save for one Goblins deck, but most decks aren't that hurt by it.

On another note, taking a cue from Chang's Madness list, has anyone considered Hail Storm in the E. Plague slot? That or Infest? Plague seemed to be pretty sub-par for me at Gencon, as when you cast it, it doesn't really set them back. But that wouldn't be the case with Hail Storm/Infest and those have been proven to work. Just an idea.

[Majestyk1136]

You have other answers against those decks. First, Salvagers relies on a creature to win the game... The Rock plays Putrefy. Salvagers also relies on the Graveyard... The Rock plays Graveyard hate. You have to use the right tool for the right job. If you expect to see Solidarity you have to know that the matchup is practically unwinnable pre-board because of the fact that you have 7 or more dead cards against them. Once you clear out that chaff after boarding you can fight them on a (more) level playing field.

[Alex_Van_R]

* I tested Mesmeric Fiend for a while now, and I'm quite satisfied about it. I cut one Baloth and 3 Duress for 1 extra Cabal Therapy and 3 Mesmeric Fiends. It tried it in the sideboard as a wishtarget as well, but it was more of a waste of a slot.

Duress costs one mana less, but it's noncreature/nonland. Mesmeric Fiend is a creature and gets rid of nonland cards. Because the card is removed, it helps against deck playing with their graveyard (f.e. against Witness). Even though it's easily killed, I always was in a situation at which I disrupted my opponent long enough with the fiend to play on without losing tempo.

* I'm still a big fan of Cranial Extraction. I know it doens't do much against solidarity, but it does against others. Lots of combodecks these days resolve on graveyards (like iggy pop, salvagers game, ...), but when I have to choose between playing Withered Wretch, Haunting Echoes and Cranial Extraction, I prefer playing 2 Echoes, 3 CE's and one Wretch to wish for.
Wretch helps a lot in these matchups, and playing at least 3 maindeck wouldn't be bad. The problem is: Most iggydecks play blue as well to bounce your Wretch and win on the next turn. Salvager-game can kill your Wretch with Pyrite Spellbomb (even if you remove the spellbomb after he sacrifices it, they still have Ohrzov Guildmage to win) and Innocent Blood. They can get rid of it with Cabal Therapy as well. Some versions even play Decree of Pain and Kagemaro.
Then you still have to tell me how Wretch helps against Solidarity. I only imagine to see you removing cards to stop Flash of Insight. :-/
Haunting Echoes costs 5 mana, but has a higher chance of being effective against those decks, and this time, against solidarity as well. Of course, you need to disrupt your opponent in order to make Echoes good.
Now I come to the part where I think Cranial Extraction is better against all of the named decks. Against Iggy, you Extract Tendrill's of Agony. GG. No one expects it. They don't play any counterspells, so they won't be able to stop it.
Against Salvagers, try to extract Lion's Eye Diamond if it isn't in play yet. Otherwise, name Auriok Salvagers. The other problem with the deck, is the ability to wish for Darksteel Colossus. How are you going to get rid of that creature? (Yes, maybe with Edict, but they play more than 1 Gamekeeper to get it back into play.) Naming Living Wish after the LED/Auriok is GG for you.
Against Solidarity, you have enough targets to name, and Extraction isn't as slow as people think it is. Naming Cunning Wish and after that, if possible, Brain Freeze (they can still win withouth High Tide ) will win you the game. However, even with the butload of Disruption, Tsunami is still a good card I'll be playing if Solidarity gets played a lot in my metagame.

* Has anyone besides me tested Crime/Punishment? I found it a very good card against all matchups with creatures/artifacts/enchantments. It works against goblins as well, but it isn't always as effective as you would like it to be, because goblins are pretty fast. (Actually, that matchup depends a lot on who wins the diceroll anyway.)

[Majestyk1136]

I've been fooling around with Sinkhole as an alternative. It's pretty ugly disruption once you couple it with the Hymns, Therapies and Duresses. If you board yourself into a near copy of Deadguy (but with better men!) you have a much better chance of beating most of these combo decks.

[Anarky87]

I've just been boarding in 3 Chains and 3 Hymns against Solidarity and 3 Hymns and 4 Wretch against IGG. Other than that I haven't had too much trouble, but then I haven't played the deck alot recently and there's literally no combo present in my meta unless this one guy shows up from out of town with IGG. However, I don't play the Wish version, so I have a pretty adaptable SB to tinker with.

[Alex_Van_R]

Majestyk or someone else, could you post a current decklist you're using?

[Anarky87]

Wow, this thread came back from the land of the zombies. I've since moved on to Truffle Shuffle, but if I were to go back to my old list, it would be the exact same version as usual:

4 Bayous
1 Stronghold
4 Wasteland
2 Mire
2 Foothills
5 Forests
4 Swamps

4 BoP
4 WoB
3 Sak
4 Trolls
3 Witness
2 Baloth

3 Duress
4 Therapy
4 Deed
3 Smother
2 Putrefy
2 Unearth

-SB-
4 Wretch
3 Hymn
3 Chains
3 Hail Storm
2 LftL

[Majestyk1136]

It's been awhile since I've posted here... But in response to Alex's request here goes:

//NAME: G/B Control
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Putrefy
2 Ravenous Baloth
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Unearth
3 Living Wish
3 Eternal Witness
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
5 Forest
4 Swamp
SB: 1 Genesis
SB: 1 Withered Wretch
SB: 1 Bone Shredder
SB: 1 Ravenous Baloth
SB: 1 Viridian Shaman
SB: 3 Hail Storm
SB: 3 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 3 Sinkhole

The Sinkhole Slot in the Board can be substituted for Tormod's Crypt if you expect Solidarity to not show up and IGGy Pop or Salvagers or The Game to show up. You could even supplant that slot with Haunting Echoes to good effect in my opinion. Once you've knocked the snot out of them with Discard it serves as a strong finisher against combo. Hail storm is in there as a concession to the fact that you're not always going to get Double Plague FTW against Goblins and it serves as a much better surprise for them to try and deal with mid-combat. You still crush Thresh. Badly. And random aggro.

[Citrus-God]

I still play White Rock...


// Lands 21
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Savannah
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Forest


// Creatures 22
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Llanowar Elves
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Loxodon Hierarch
2 Ravenous Baloth
3 Eternal Witness
3 Dark Confidant


// Spells 18
2 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Living Wish


// Sideboard 15
2 Ravenous Baloth
1 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Hypnotic Specter
1 Dark Confidant
1 Indrink Stomphowler
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
4 Engineered Plague
2 Duress


This is like a more narrow Survival. Fun? I run Card Draw in the form of Confidant. It usually never kills me, but it does win me more games than I'm suppose to. It's also quite a strong topdeck if you and your opponent just got in a heavy attrition war.

[Majestyk1136]

As a fun sidenote I went 2-0 drop at a vintage tourney over the weekend here in Colorado with this deck. Knowing that the metagame would be unpowered I anticipated a scad of generally underpowered decks teched out to beat power.

First round I played against mono-u control with like 1,000,000 counterspells. I was momentarily afraid he would do something amazing because he quickly dropped a Cloud of Faeries and a Standstill. I broke Standstill with Duress and followed up with Therapy, making him discards multiple Brainstorms and a counterspell. The game went on for awhile until he dropped a Meloku tapped out. I played a Deed and patiently waited for him to try some shenanigans but he was badly overextended and I literally 5-for-1'd him. The pair of Living Wishes I tried were rebuked with Hinderbottom until I finally ran him out of cards and Unearthed a Troll. Troll won from that point with an assist from Sakura-Tribe Elder.

Game 2 I started off with another Troll after Duress/Therapy shenanigans on my part. The Troll got his beat on and Mishra's Factory (from his end) met Wasteland and I finally flashed him the card I had been saving up for him: Haunting Echoes. He concedes.

Round 2: Scrub. I pwn him and his Kaervek/Eron/Kumano/Balduvian Barbarians shenanigans.

I drop at this point because I have a class to go to at my parents church. The only other competition that was there was going to be U/G/W Gro. But not that much competition as Vintage Gro is like a bad version of Legacy Thresh. And I can kill his entire threat base 6 times over after I nuke his hand. Nice Force of Will, noob.

Anyways, here's the list with "modifications" for Vintage. Yay.

//NAME: G/B Control
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Putrefy
2 Ravenous Baloth
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Unearth
3 Living Wish
1 Demonic Tutor*
2 Eternal Witness
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
5 Forest
4 Swamp
SB: 1 Genesis
SB: 1 Withered Wretch
SB: 1 Bone Shredder
SB: 1 Ravenous Baloth
SB: 1 Viridian Shaman
SB: 1 Ravenous Rats
SB: 3 Chainer's Edict**
SB: 2 Haunting Echoes***
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 3 Engineered Plague****

*Seems more powerful than E-Witness
**Repeatedly destroys annoying Darksteel Colossii
***Annihilates Combo Decks
****Beats Food Chain Goblins should it show up.

Happy Travels.

[Alex_Van_R]

This might seem like a strange list, but here I go:

// Lands
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [RAV] Swamp
6 [TSP] Forest
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [A] Bayou

// Creatures
1 [JU] Genesis
4 [R] Birds of Paradise
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [ON] Ravenous Baloth
4 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder

// Spells
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [RAV] Darkblast
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [RAV] Putrefy
3 [ON] Infest

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [MR] Troll Ascetic
SB: 4 [US] Duress
SB: 2 [OD] Haunting Echoes


I used to play with Living Wish, and I still think it is a good card, but I started constructing the deck with a sideboard that could fit against all three archetypes: combo, aggro, control. I came to the conclusion that it was almost impossible to realize this. I couldn't find any slots for other cards which I really needed. That's why I cut the wishes from the deck. With these free slots, I can focus some more on my bad matchups, especially combodecks.

I played truffle shuffle for a while, but I really think the deck isn't that good. That's all because of the manabase. As I stated a lot in this thread, it isn't necessary to splash another color in the deck, because it doesn't add anything to the deck that isn't already in it, and also because of the manabase that gets screwed up, making you vunerable for Wastelands etc.

The lands: I play 22 lands, which should be enough, since I can survive on four mana.

The creatures: 4 Birds, 4 Sakura, 3 Witness, 3 Baloth, NO WALL OF BLOSSOMS.

I changed the Wall of Blossoms with Sensei's Divining Top. I played the card in Truffle Shuffle, and I'm currently playing it in extended rock as well. Wall of Blossoms is a good blocker, and it draws you one card, but that's about it. Sensei's Divining Top has good synergy with the fetchlands, sakura-tribe elders and Darkblast.

Because rock always had troubles with getting rid of that turn one Goblin Lackey, I added Darkblast. More than getting rid of that turn one lackey, it also kills Faerie Conclaves, Disciples of the Vault, Dark Confidants, pre-threshold creatures, and it puts pressure on early Arcbound Ravagers and Nantuko Shades.
The synergy with Sensei's Divining Top is just awesome, and even without top, it's still awesome with Eternal Witness. Basically, you have a draw engine à la Ancestral Recall.

Maindeck Infest and Crime/Punishment:
My meta shifted to goblins again, so I put these maindeck.
Even on a major tournament like D4D, I think this wouldn't be a bad choice. You still kick threshold in the arse, and Crime/Punishment helps you to get around maindeck Pithing Needles. It can get rid of vials+lackey+... as well. I don't have to notice that you kick random aggro with that card as well.
Maindeck Infest is also meant against goblins to stop the horde. Pre-threshold creatures get killed by it as well. Against the UGw thresh, you can kill Meddling Mages with it. (g1 at least)

Sideboard Troll Ascetic: Since you're playing maindeck Infest, Troll isn't that good, but against control and combo, you're siding infest out and you replace them with troll. Against aggro, you don't really need them anyway. You already have baloth + witness/genesis.

[Majestyk1136]

1 Genesis. One. Uno. Ein.

I guess you're just going to lucksack that thing, huh? :D

That said, I'm sticking with the Living Wishes because having a Demonic Tutor for creature silver bullets seems good to me. The problems that the deck has with combo can be remedied if you anticipate combo showing up and board correctly. Mesmeric Fiend out of the board from Wish and Wretch to deal with the yard along with extra discard should give you a fighting chance against most combo decks anyways.

The answer may lie in Haunting Echoes I suppose.

EDIT: Wouldn't Ghastly Demise be better in 90% of situations than Darkblast? Perhaps you just up the number of fetches by 1 or so so you can be more sure of getting a first turn Fetch->black source->Demise to deal with the lackey.

[Alex_Van_R]

1 Genesis. One. Uno. Ein.

I guess you're just going to lucksack that thing, huh? :D

I can:

Dredge Genesis into the grave
Cabal Therapy Genesis into the grave
...



EDIT: Wouldn't Ghastly Demise be better in 90% of situations than Darkblast? Perhaps you just up the number of fetches by 1 or so so you can be more sure of getting a first turn Fetch->black source->Demise to deal with the lackey.

Darkblast keeps coming back, and sets up a draw engine with witness/sensei.
If you want to get rid of that turn 1 lackey with gastly demise, you actually need that fetchland as well, which you can't count on all the time.
Gastly demise kills bigger creatures, but Putrefy does that as well.

[lukatron2]

call me crazy, but I'm starting to think that the GBW version of this deck is one of the best decks in the format...and thats coming from someone (me) who doesn't play this deck and isn't even an advocate for this deck. It's just SOO good! honestly, besides combo, I can't think of a really BAD match-up that this deck has against any other decks. It can hold ground against goblins, it smashes thresh and beats random aggro. I hate playing against this deck but it is soo good.

A list something like this killed me in a big tourney

land 22

4 windsweapt heath
4 wooded foothills
1 plains
3 forest
1 swamp
4 bayou
4 savahna (don't know how to spell it)
1 volraths stronghold

4 swords to plowshares
4 living wish
4 loxodon hierarch
4 birds of paradise
4 cabal therapy
4 troll ascetic
4 eternal witness
4 pernicious deed
4 duress
2 ravenous baloth

something like that...anyhow..this deck SUCKS to play against but is a very awsome deck

[Majestyk1136]

When piloted properly this deck is a savage beating.

I'm afraid to reveal my super-secret tech for beating the combo matchup however until I unleash it in a big event.

You'd never believe what it is if I told you...

BTW: White is unnecessary if you're packing Smother.

[lukatron2]

When piloted properly this deck is a savage beating.

I'm afraid to reveal my super-secret tech for beating the combo matchup however until I unleash it in a big event.

You'd never believe what it is if I told you...

BTW: White is unnecessary if you're packing Smother.

is it angel's grace/gaea's blessing? cause thats probably the best option this deck has...

lets see...reasons to run white

1. SWORDS TO PLOWSHARES. takes out pretty much anthing that does is targetable. Swords is SOO much better than smother and on so many different levels. answers turn 1 lackey (b/g rock doesn't really have an answer to turn 1 lackey). I'm not going to elaborate because everyone knows how good swords is in any deck playing or splashing white.

2. loxidon hierarch. He is a beast! his ability actually can work really well with deed too. deed away, use his ability, keep your creatures, opponents creatures die. Not to mention the 4 life gaining thing.

3. vindicate. takes care of almost anything pesky out there. I would say that it deserves a 4 of slot deffinately

4. angels grace with gaea's blessing sounds very janky, but is actually a very viable option if you are playing against combo high tide. It basically screws them over hard core and is almost impossible for them to play around if played right. Volwraths stronghold can even save you if they don't make you draw (during your upkeep, put a creature on top of your deck, draw it.)

I think that these reasons alone are good enough for me to run white in rock. swords alone gives the deck that much more power.

[keys]

I've been playing a list very similar to the one Lukatron posted.

4 Birds of Paradise
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Eternal Witness
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Loxodon Hierarch

4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Crime // Punishment
3 Living Wish

1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windsweapt Heath
2 Polluted Delta
4 Bayou
4 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains

Sideboard:

3 Krosan Grip
2 Haunting Echoes
3 Orim's Chant/Angel's Grace if you want
2 Gaea's Blessing
1 Bone Shredder
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Dust Bowl

I've been using Crime//Punishment as pseudo Pernicious Deed 5 & 6. It's better than Vindicate, because it gives you more ways to get rid of untargetable cards like Nimble Mongoose, or you can play it like a one sided Wrath of God (X=2) against Fish. I rarely use Crime, but I've taken bombs like Eternal Dragon before. It could be useful if you ever play Reanimator.

I think that's pretty much the only contested card in the deck. Everything else has proved its worth over and over again.

The mana base is also very stable. I might go up to 2 of Volrath's Stronghold because it comes in handy a lot. It fits in the deck way better than Genesis, that's for sure.

I use Chant & Blessing in the sideboard, along with a pretty typical wish selection. Haunting Echoes is debatable, so basically we have 2 spots to work with.

[Majestyk1136]

By adding white you also make yourself more vulnerable to... Goblins!

And you sacrifice the ability to have a consistent and stable enough mana base to play Wasteland, which adds a whole new dimension to the deck.

If you have to have a Swords available to kill a Lackey to win anyways you're in pretty tough shape to begin with.

Ravenous Baloth accomplishes the same thing as Hierarch without ruining your mana.

As far as Gaea's Blessing goes, people have been thinking too defensively about how to defeat combo decks. The card I'm using kills them for trying to go off and makes it so trying to get rid of the problem becomes so costly to their life total that even a single hit from a Troll/Witness or Baloth with this card on the table essentially spells doom for them.

[Clark Kant]

With the addition of Damnation to black, I think a version of the rock that's closer to truffle shuffle, but without White, can be quite competitive.

Would that need to be discussed on a seperate thread though?

[Alex_Van_R]

I think a rockdeck with damnation, less creatures and more truffleshuffle-aimed, would be the right call.

@ keys: I don't get the Orim's Chant in your deck. You don't have Isochron scepter and you don't have a clock in this deck to make chant usefull. You can't lock your opponent with it. It's better to run discard or something else against combo.

[n00bas4urus_r3x]

chant played against solidarity can stop them from comboing out if played right, such as in response to thier casting of high tide.. you're forcing them to either be holding a force, or waste a hight tide and a land. also, against many other decks, chant is a time walk.

[Alex_Van_R]

chant played against solidarity can stop them from comboing out if played right, such as in response to thier casting of high tide.. you're forcing them to either be holding a force, or waste a hight tide and a land. also, against many other decks, chant is a time walk.

Chant is a time walk when you can beat your opponent on the next turn. It doesn't fit it this deck. You can't lock your opponent, and you can't race your opponent with this deck. If you play discard, you'll get rid of those combocards as well. Duress+Hymn+therapy(+echoes) = gg

[Blair Phoenix]

When piloted properly this deck is a savage beating.

I'm afraid to reveal my super-secret tech for beating the combo matchup however until I unleash it in a big event.

You'd never believe what it is if I told you...

BTW: White is unnecessary if you're packing Smother. Would the initials of this card happen to be ID?:tongue: If not, then I'm not going to guess further

[sammiel]

the only thing I can think of is a permanent, I've got my playset around here somewhere. The problem with that is that, like all other permanent anti-combo solutions, it's bounceable. That means you either need a fast clock, or 3+ permanent answers with different names. Echoing Truth answers having multiples, and Rushing River can bounce two at once.

*edit* and assuming Alex is talking about the same I D that I am, hes right, it doesnt help against anything but solidarity.

[Majestyk1136]

ID also reduces the viable number of paths to victory for IGGy Pop to non-instants, opening them up to graveyard hate. The number of times that deck has won without casting 3-4 instants on the same turn is small... If you add in your hand disruption you're really closing the window for them.

EDIT: I was afraid that nobody noticed that little blurb as it went by... and test it before you dog it, it does solidarity in (your worst matchup incidentally) and damages any storm based combo pretty badly because they're so reliant on instants (Yes, even IGG) because they have to have the PERFECT setup to go off through your disruption + Druid, giving you plenty of time to do them in.

[Lone Signal]

What do you guys think about running Life from the Loam and some cycling lands?
I have a basic version the Rock deck proxied for fun/playtest and have noticed going into topdeck mode a lot and often not getting the right card at the right time. Maybe LftL will somewhat address the problem?

[Majestyk1136]

How you're getting into topdeck mode is beyond me. Unless you're playing heavy discard or monoU you will typically have more cards in your hand than your opponent... look at how many cantrip critters you have. And you have wish for Genesis to make sure your hand is never empty.

[Alex_Van_R]

I think that the new card from Planar Chaos, Eradication, will give a serious blast to this deck. Combomatchups will improve with this card. Most combodecks resolve around Lion's Eye Diamond. Remove that and cripple your opponent's strategy. The split second ability is crucial against solidarity. They won't be able to counter, so you can remove their cards.
One of our worst matchups, next to solidarity, is landstill. They only play 4winconditions: Mishra's Factory, Faerie Conclave, Eternal Dragon, Decree of Justice.
Rock has enough ways to get cards in the graveyard: Duress, Cabal Therapy, Hymn to Tourach, Wasteland, ...
I'd simply use it in the maindeck, 4 times, since you can use it against every deck (mostly against control and combo, and you'll probably side it out against some decks).
In contrary to Lotus Bloom, this card could get rock into tier, by having a good matchup against aggro, and improved matchups against combo and control.

[Majestyk1136]

You have problems with Landstill? How?

Landstill player: "I play a Standstill. Go."

You: "I play Duress, breaking Standstill. Go ahead, counter it. Now I play a Troll."

Landstill Player: *vomits* *Player Lost*

Yeah, it's pretty much like that. Landstill is an even worse deck than Threshold in that regard because at least Thresh has some sort of a Threat to bother you with while they sit on counterspells that you're going to take away from them.

Extirpate is sick. It might be the finger in the dam of the combo tide for this deck given its uncounterability. Nuke all IGGs in response to IGG? Check. All LEDs? Check. All High Tides? Check. Wow. What doesn't this thing do? That plus Witness is totally retarded too. Wanna rip all of any given Win condition out of your opponent's deck? Check check checkity mutherf*%^@king check!!!!!

Especially if you have some information about what is in your opponent's hand... it acts as not only Coffin Purge but Cranial Extraction and Cabal Therapy all at the same time. Stupid.

[lukatron2]

this deck is pretty amazing...I think that if more people played it, the format would be shaken up a bit. Rock has solid match-ups against a wide variety of decks exept solidarity and landstill (who plays landstill anyways)...with the exeption of combo, what would you guys say is BWG rocks worst match-ups?

there is a guy who takes rock to our local weekly tourney and usually takes 1st or 2nd...


on a side note, has anyone seen that crappy deck in the development forum called "rockin funkbrew"? its like a way crappier version of this deck and the guys in that thread swear that its so much better than this deck...for some reason it just pisses me off... that deck seems HORRIBLE!

[laststepdown]

Obviously the current talk for this deck is Damnation and Extirpate.

I'll discuss Extirpate first, as I feel it could actually cause more damage than Damnation in most metagames. With the implementation of Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond, this deck can potentially pull a:
T1: Swamp, Duress. Chrome Mox, Extirpate(the duressed target, duh).
For those running Living Wish, Chrome Mox also lets you Wish into Maze of Ith turn 1-just a suggestion for those in Goblin Metagames. While some of their builds have Wasteland/Port, you do have Eternal Witness.

Damnation will never make this deck, in my opinion. Deed has better synergy with the 3 and 4 cmc threats it lays on the table, and is more versitile.

[The Rack]

on a side note, has anyone seen that crappy deck in the development forum called "rockin funkbrew"? its like a way crappier version of this deck and the guys in that thread swear that its so much better than this deck...for some reason it just pisses me off... that deck seems HORRIBLE!

Uh, excuse me? let me know when you've spent over 100 hours testing with 1 deck. All the matchups are not the same as Rock, I'm sure Rock has better matchups than it too, and Funkbrew has better matchups than Rock because it's a different deck altogether. The deck much closely resembles PT Funk if anything else. Please do not refer to it as "crappy" and it shouldn't bother you if you don't read it. You posted a Rock list which was just... not as good as the first list posted. Sorry, play again.

[laststepdown]

Guys, let's not start a flame war.
Back on topic, what's worth dropping for Extirpate? Sideboard or main?

[n00bas4urus_r3x]

First of all, rockin' funk isn't the same type of deck as Rock is. Funkbrew is far more aggro, and plays far less of a draw-go mentality than the Rock has. Saying they are of similar nature is like saying The Game or B/G Trainwreck is the same as Rock, because it plays the same colors.

Extirpate should see sideboard at best. It doesn't help you that much mained, and if it did, why wouldn't you just run Haunting Echoes, which hits every card. Extirpate is ok, but not much more than that.

[laststepdown]

Because, noob, Etirpate is uncounterable, faster, and cheaper than Haunting Echoes. It hits graveyard threats-which discard and mass removal(such as Pernicious Deed) provide, as they always have.

[Anarky87]

Should white splashes be discussed in this thread, or is this specifically for the discussion of traditional G/B? There are certainly advocates for both versions, but would more productive discussion be paid to each if both versions had their own thread? I know in the past the discussions surrounding splashes of any kind have been dispelled in this thread, retaining that G/B is the only necessary color combination. But there are others who feel differently and have argued that the addition of white (StP, Vindicate, Hierarch, etc) seems to be the next logical step in evolution for the deck.

Perhaps by branching off and creating a G/B/W Rock thread, more discussion about that deck could be accomplished, because some people are talking strictly about G/B while others are referring to G/B/W lists. Or maybe to the title of this thread, someone could add, "[Deck] The Rock (Including splashes)."

[Tacosnape]

You have problems with Landstill? How?

Landstill player: "I play a Standstill. Go."

You: "I play Duress, breaking Standstill. Go ahead, counter it. Now I play a Troll."

Landstill Player: *vomits* *Player Lost*

Yeah, it's pretty much like that.

No, it really isn't. Most Landstill decks have answers galore to Troll, be it Wrath, Diabolic Edict, Counters you failed to duress, or 4/4 first striking lands. As a Landstill player I wouldn't fear this deck in the slightest outside of Extirpate, solutions to which are being worked on.

[Anarky87]

You have problems with Landstill? How?

Landstill player: "I play a Standstill. Go."

You: "I play Duress, breaking Standstill. Go ahead, counter it. Now I play a Troll."

Landstill Player: *vomits* *Player Lost*

Yeah, it's pretty much like that. Landstill is an even worse deck than Threshold in that regard because at least Thresh has some sort of a Threat to bother you with while they sit on counterspells that you're going to take away from them.

More along the lines of you breaking Standstill, them drawing, letting you Duress whatever, because it won't matter, and then casting Edict for your Troll. I hardly ever play against traditional U/W Landstill anymore, everyone around here has picked up the 4c version, which has a much larger answer diversity, an excellent draw system, and an excellent threat combination. And having been beat by U/W Landstill more times than not in the past, The Rock is not as well off as you make it seem.

And sometimes The Rock stumbles even against Thresh, which is a deck Landstill crushes a majority of the time that I've witnessed, so I wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket.

[Majestyk1136]

?

Again.

?

My use of the Rock where I play Legacy drove Landstill out of the Metagame. Having recently won the Legacy City Champs Event with The Rock (Playing MUC 2-1, Landstill 2-0 and Mono-Green Elves 2-0[WTF?]) I remain constantly impressed with the deck's consistency and power. In fact, I had a group of people gathered around watching, saying "A GREEN DECK IS BEATING THE BLUE DECK!?!" Yes Virginia, the Green deck is beating the Blue deck. Badly. But these people are used to playing against Vintage blue decks where you can savagely cheat by playing blue.

Anyways, as if Edict matters to the Rock... *Sacrifices a Wall of Blossoms*

[Anarky87]

?

Again.

?

My use of the Rock where I play Legacy drove Landstill out of the Metagame. Having recently won the Legacy City Champs Event with The Rock (Playing MUC 2-1, Landstill 2-0 and Mono-Green Elves 2-0[WTF?]) I remain constantly impressed with the deck's consistency and power. In fact, I had a group of people gathered around watching, saying "A GREEN DECK IS BEATING THE BLUE DECK!?!" Yes Virginia, the Green deck is beating the Blue deck. Badly. But these people are used to playing against Vintage blue decks where you can savagely cheat by playing blue.

So you beat a Vintage naive with the mindset from 2002 playing MUC, the always wrong-choice of Elves!, and some kind of Landstill. Where were the Goblins, Thresh, Solidarity, Iggy-Pop, etc. Where was the meta? People stopped playing The Rock here when it rolled to Goblins and combo. Landstill was just another nail in the coffin.


Anyways, as if Edict matters to the Rock... *Sacrifices a Wall of Blossoms*

So you never flashbacked Therapy or Deeded? Or had them Deed, Edict, StP, block Monastery/Factory? That sounds pretty questionable.

[Majestyk1136]

*Shrug*

If you have no confidence in the Rock don't play it. My experience just seems to be different from yours. I don't get rolled by combo and goblins, and it's not for lack of competent pilots. It's sort of a cop-out to attribute other people's success to the ignorance or incompetence of their opponents. The elf-deck was not entirely awful but I agree, it had no business there. Sometimes you get lucky in pairings. MUC has its own thread in this here forum and it was a well metagamed and decent deck with a strong draw engine and good control elements. The landstill deck was pretty stock, but nonetheless had a good pilot and the ability to hold good decks down, having already beaten a couple of combo opponents. The lone Iggy Pop player lost to the landstill guy, the Pikula player lost to R/G beats, the Solidary player lost to Pikula. That's the way it goes.

[Ender42]

Here is a version of the Rock that I have been playing in local tournaments for quite some time. In my meta, 85% of the players play randomness, but the 15% that don't generally play control or combo (and they are the better players anyway), so I have adapted the deck and sideboard to have a better game against those (I can generally outplay the randomness, so I was willing to sacrifice some flexibility for more consistency).

Major change: taking out living wish. While I loved being able to wish up the exact answer that I needed, I found that I had to sacrifice too much in sideboard space to be able to beat combo and control on a regular basis.

Here is the decklist:

4 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland
2 Volrath's Stronghold
5 Forest
4 Swamp

4 Birds of Paradise
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Eternal Witness
3 Ravenous Baloth

3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Putrefy
2 Smother

Sideboard

1 Duress
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Engineered Plague
2 Infest
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Jitte

Some thoughts:

Still testing the Jitte in the SB. The nice thing is that is beats a lot of randomness and aggro, but the Rock generally does that anyway. What I do like about it is that if they don't have an answer, you just win. Last friday, after sideboard, a friend of mine playing fish opens with 2x Leyline of the Void and Pithing Needle on Deed. Generally a bad start for me. Fortunately, I had Troll/Jitte and I just rode that to the win, and without the extra 4-8 points of damage from the Jitte, he likely would have found an answer.

Otherwise, the sideboard is just about making the deck better at what it already does well - either removal against aggro (infest/plague) or discard (duress/hymn).

Has anyone else gone away from the Living Wish path in favor of more consistency and a better sideboard plan? I would be interested in your thoughts.

[Majestyk1136]

I only play around 6 Wish Targets anyways. The trouble is that cards that are great against certain matchups are total dreck in others, so... What I've found is that if you drop the wishes the deck becomes very one dimensional in that you're going to drop a lot of power against combo. You have almost no shot against them with just the suite of 3 Duress/4 Therapy. Being able to Wish up Ichneumon Druid/Withered Wretch against certain matchups is critical. Unfortunately both of these cards are practically useless against Goblins and Druid is worthless against Thresh/generic control. Everything changes with the introduction of Extirpate anyways. Sideboarding strategy and combo hate totally change in light of that card. Random hand destruction + Extirpate becomes a legitimate strategy for disarming narrow, focused decks like IGGy or Solidarity. It obviously takes multiple instances of Extirpate in the case of Solidarity as you're only relatively safe once you knock out High Tide and Cunning Wish or discard them down to nothing with a good clock to win.

[Ender42]

So what are your thoughts on sideboard come Feb 20th? With the addition of Extirpate, will you still need the wishboard?

I will basically take out Leylines for Extirpate 1:1.

1 Duress
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Engineered Plague
2 Infest
3 Extirpate
2 Jitte

[Anarky87]

I switched on and off of the Wish board for awhile until I completely dropped it in favor of a regular board.

4 Withered Wretch
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Hail Storm
2 Life from the Loam

Was what I was running for a period before I started testing other decks. I brought in Hymn and Chains for Solidarity, Wretch and Hymn in for Iggy Pop, Hailstorm I included for awhile because Goblins in my areas was easily answering Plague with mass removal and Hailstorm was a surprise factor and let me blow Deeds for more than 3 if I needed, and LftL was just there for B/w or B/r disruption decks. But now with Extirpate, I'd probably toy around with the SB to include 3-4.

[Ender42]

I do like the Chains, but they are a little out of my budget. I would think Extirpate would be an easy switch out for the Wretch, no?

I have found that I need 6 extra cards against a fast goblins build (plagues + infest) - did you find that just 2 hail storms were generally enough? I also have the plagues in because there are a lot of slivers in my area, so they do double duty...

Life from the Loam is tech - there is a Pox player in my area, so I will try those out in place of the Jitte. Thanks!

[Anarky87]

I do like the Chains, but they are a little out of my budget. I would think Extirpate would be an easy switch out for the Wretch, no?

I have found that I need 6 extra cards against a fast goblins build (plagues + infest) - did you find that just 2 hail storms were generally enough? I also have the plagues in because there are a lot of slivers in my area, so they do double duty...

Life from the Loam is tech - there is a Pox player in my area, so I will try those out in place of the Jitte. Thanks!

Yeah, I can understand Chains being out of most players budget (they were out of mine and I just borrowed them for as long as I needed from another guy). I think Extirpate would be a fine inclusion over Wretch now that it exists and isn't as mana intensive as Wretch was. No, I didn't find 2 Hailstorm enough, so I ran 3 ;) I found that Hailstorm, Smother, Putrefy, and Deed along with Witness to recur any of them was more than enough. I decided on Hailstorm because it was GG which my build could attain easier than the BB of Infest.

LftL I assumed would work pretty well, but I never ran into those decks during tournaments, and if I did, I usually won without seeing them. But try them out if ya want and see if they work for ya. And you're much obliged.

[Majestyk1136]

So I decided to join the dark side. After getting stomped by my friend playing 1000 cards that shut down my deck I changed up The Rock to play 3-color. (Granted, the jerk played 4 MD Stifle, 4 Mage, 4 Grunt, Needles and Jitte, in short, the anti-rock deck) Observe:

//NAME: 3-color control
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Loxodon Hierarch
2 Ravenous Baloth
4 Wall of Blossoms
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Vindicate
3 Eternal Witness
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
4 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
SB: 2 Haunting Echoes
SB: 3 Orim's Chant
SB: 3 Ichneumon Druid
SB: 3 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 3 Infest

Color consistency (my biggest fear with this deck configuration) was not as big a problem as I had previously envisioned. Nightmarish cards like Jotun Grunt and Needle are also no longer a problem as you have many more outs to them without having to waste time on Living Wish. The combination of hand disruption is still as potent as ever against light countermagic-style decks like Thresh but the added versatility of the Vindicates has turned out to be great. Swords of course speaks for itself and the Hierarch's ability was only relevant in the sense that his name is not "Ravenous Baloth."

Anyways, a little reportage:

City Champs (Mar. 18, 2007 - Hobbytown USA Littleton, CO)

RD 1: 10-land Stompy against Brianne Hamm

I win the Die roll and keep a hand with 2 lands - Plains and Bloodstained Mire. I have a Bird, Therapy and Vindicate in hand so I keep it. I play Plains and pass. Brianne leads off with Land Grant (for Tropical), revealing 2 more land grants and it becomes obvious that she's playing 10-land stompy with Berserks. She reveals 2 more land grants in addition to the one she played, so I take note of her entire hand. She plays out a Skyshroud Ridgeback and a Jungle Lion after pitching an ESG and passes. I draw a Forest on my turn, play my Mire (Fetching Bayou) and therapy her for Land Grant, nailing 2. On her next turn she misses a land drop (Obv) and puts Unstable Mutation on the Ridgeback, swinging for 7.

I take the turn back and Vindicate her Beasty, ready to Flashback Therapy the next turn. She attacks again with the lion and on my Next turn I draw a Wall of Blossoms to block her man and nuke the rest of her hand with a Flashbacked therapy from the bird. I'm only ever in danger when she eventually topdecks (on consecutive turns) Ridgeback, Briar Shield and Berserk which causes me to have to Sac my Baloth to stay at 1 life after blocking with my Wall. Trolls go the distance.

Game 2 starts out with her going nuts on a Ridgeback with Rancor and Unstable Mutation on the second turn. I draw 3 STP's this game and a Witness however. She ends up above 30 life after all of this farming but I take the game home easily once her hand is spent.

RD 2: Jet Peterson with Fish

Jet slammed his deck together before the event and borrowed Scrublands and Undergrounds from me. His confidence level is pretty low because he knows I'm playing the rock. He accuses me of being older than dirt among other rotten things and also of knowing how to play my deck better than almost anybody in the room. So what if I've been playing this deck since the days of Sol Malka? Experience? Pfah. What does that matter?

Anyways, my deck does the predictable thing against the fish men and stomps them. The combination of Vindicates, Swords and Deeds are too much for Pikula to stop at once and his Bob helps me out by letting me know what's in his hand. Therapy tears him a new one.

I win easily.

RD 3: Nate Hamm w/ Mono-Black Rack

Nate's deck is Bizarre. It features MD Abyss, Port, Wasteland, Bottomless Pit, Rack, Smallpox, Sinkhole, Hymn, Duress and his Win conditions apparently consist of Mishra's Factory and the Rack.

In 2 games I'm quickly run out of cards and begin drawing land after land. I get Stronghold working in game 1 with WoB to block his Factory but even after clearing the board of Rack, Abyss and Pit in both games with Deed I can't draw action enough to put pressure on him and he draws another Abyss and Pit to get a sort of soft-lock on me. I take second place.

Observations:

As I suspected, the Stronghold is conditionally great and at other times obnoxious. This deck can't afford lands that produce colorless mana due to having 3 colors, making it a 2-edged sword. The third color is powerful but comes at the price of added vulnerability to Wasteland and even Port. Stronghold could just as easily be Nantuko Monastery but for the fact that it can create the life swing you're looking for from Baloth and Hierarch. The main justification for the Living Wish model of this deck is the interaction with Genesis, which would have been relevant against the Mono-Black deck if I had had Wish instead of Stronghold. Paying 3 mana to essentially draw an extra card every turn would have been great against his Racks, especially if the extra card is Eternal Witness every turn, thanks to his Abyss. Anyways, other than just having a md Genesis I don't know how to efficiently include that in the deck and expect to find it, so maybe the answer is to include both, 1 Genesis, 1 Stronghold.

Thoughts, comments, criticism?

[Anarky87]

Congrats on your placing! White has alot to offer the deck not only in creatures and removal, but also in combo tech in Chant. Though the extra removal suite helps.

The only thing I could tell you to help with not getting raped by Wasteland (Which is really only significant if they're packing land hate in addition to Waste. Otherwise it's a minor hindrance) is to wait on your fetches or nabbing basics with the elder. Even with playing Truffle Shuffle against Goblins I don't remember getting hosed too badly.

I can't think of anything right off the bat that I'd change. It all looks pretty solid, great job!

[Majestyk1136]

Thanks for the comments.

The main problem against combo remains having 7 dead cards against them in the MD making game 1 practically an auto-loss. Of course, you get to turn into a combo-destroying machine in games 2 and 3, so that's a bonus. Anyways, I'm generally pleased with the deck as it still stomps the snot out of Thresh and is strong against Gobbos, Esp. after boards, even at the cost of being more vulnerable to mana-denial.

[Odd Mutation]

Hi,

I like the decklist a lot. I just have some questions about the sideboard.

* Is Infest better then Engineered Plague?

* Have you been happy with siding in Haunting Echoes? Could Extirpate be any good in that slot?

* Have the Orim's Chants proven their worth?

More in general, how is your matchup against Landstill? What are the key cards?

I used to play with three Pernicious Deeds myself but recently was thinking of going back to four. How do you feel about this?

Congratulations with your finish and the interesting decklist.

Robrecht.

[Majestyk1136]

Hi,

I like the decklist a lot. I just have some questions about the sideboard.

* Is Infest better then Engineered Plague?

* Have you been happy with siding in Haunting Echoes? Could Extirpate be any good in that slot?

* Have the Orim's Chants proven their worth?

More in general, how is your matchup against Landstill? What are the key cards?

I used to play with three Pernicious Deeds myself but recently was thinking of going back to four. How do you feel about this?

Congratulations with your finish and the interesting decklist.

Robrecht.

1. Is Infest "better" than Engineered Plague? "Better" is a relative term because it's really a game of trying to make the most out of your slots in the board. You know that no matter which color your goblins opponent splashes (White or Green) they're going to have enchantment hate in the board to avoid auto-losing to double Plague. Infest may as well read "Wrath of God" for 3 mana against Goblins barring double King. It kill your Trolls but you probably don't care as you're clearing their board and your recursion is so strong. Other positives: Plague has anti-synergy with Deed, which you may want to blow for 3-4 against goblins. Infest is also quite good against a deck like Angel Stompy where outside of the Angel and Grunt you can repeatedly nuke their board without a card named Deed. You could play Hail Storm, but it doesn't deal with irritations like Mother of Runes like Infest does. The downside? You're more open to LD with this deck than you are with the B/G Version. Fortunately, your opponent may choose to shut down your Double Green with their Ports rather than double black, thinking that you're more likely to cast a Troll or Hail Storm than Infest! Once the cat's out of the bag however mana denial can be more effective against this card.

2. Extirpate is conditionally strong against certain combo archetypes like IGGY where it is admittedly a wrecking ball because they intentionally bin their engine, allowing you to nuke it. But, against a deck like Solidarity it does little because you practically have to force them to discard not 1 but 2 pieces of their combo and then Extirpate them (Typically High Tide and Cunning Wish) to have it be anywhere near fatal. Echoes is simply 1-card Win condition against a variety of decks but I hate playing it in the MD because it is strictly dead against goblins unless you're playing a deck that has 8 or more Board sweepers that are online and preventing you from getting overrun for long enough to resolve that huge sorcery.

3. Orim's Chant is huge. In some sense it takes the place of Extirpate because against those decks that dump their win into the bin you don't have instant speed GY hate option. So, just having the ability to disable sorcery speed combo in the middle them of going off is strong. The "Can't attack" kicker doesn't really come up all that often and there are no decks that you need Chant to force spells through against (That's what Duress is for) so Chant becomes purely reactive in some sense and gives you an early out against fast combo. You're practically transforming your deck anyways against combo so...

Against Landstill? Well, the Living Wish version of the Rock is probably better off against Landstill because you have added flexibility and your opponent has to somehow get over the power of Genesis recursion to win the game. In this build your key cards (as always against counterspells) are going to be Duress and Therapy. The addition of Swords actually helps a ton because you get the ability to RFG their Manlands, preventing them from recurring them with Crucible. Vindicate can come up huge because you get to play spot removal against a resolved Crucible, one of their biggest threats. BWHC plays their own Deeds obviously and your Trolls will be less effective against Chainer's Edict, but you typically have enough critters that you're going to be saccing a wall or bird to that. Your hand destruction is especially key after boarding however. Clearing the road for a devastating Echoes is a strong WC against not just this deck but against Thresh as well.

You're basically becoming a weird version of Deadguy after boarding against Landstill (or a hybrid of the Rock and Truffle Shuffle) so read this:

"BW Aggro (Deadguy Ale)

This is your worst matchup. In one session we did 22 games of playtesting and BHWC Landstill did not win a single game. The only thing I can say is to keep their creatures off the board. Counters are not very good in this matchup, so try to use them to keep Deed and StP in your hand for their creatures." (From the BWHC Landstill Primer)

On Deed: The Living Wish version of The Rock can afford 4 Deeds. I'm not so sure about this. What are you going to cut? The first place to look at would be Vindicate in my opinion, but that just adds one more functionally dead card against Combo in the MD, where you already have 7 dead-heads. Also, smart players who have Needles or Pikula ought to be terrified of Deed so it will be one of the first things they name with those cards. Having Deed as a four-of when it's shut down will make you weep bitter tears. Lastly, if somebody gets smart and starts playing Krosan Grip you'll inevitably get caught with your pants down on a Deed that you needed to pop but didn't get a chance to.

[Majestyk1136]

More Reportage: Sunday Legacy @ Black Gold, Littleton CO - 4-1-07 - No Fooling!

I called Carl at Black Gold Sunday morning hoping that he would hold off on starting the tournament for me for 10-15 minutes or so. He did and benefitted me by giving me the BYE in the first round.

Rd 2: Leo Rubio w/ Mantle Affinity

Leo gets a quick start with an Ornithopter, Mantle, artifact land and Frogmite. I play possum with a Sakura-Tribe Elder. Leo continues the Affinity madness with Fairy Godmother on the second turn and an attack. Block and sac the Elder, continuing to play possum with another Elder who takes one for the team on the ensuing turn when the Inevitable Cranial Plating comes down and is equipped on the third turn. Finally, on about the fourth turn from scrimmage I land a Vindicate on his Plating (Sacced to Ravager) and a Bird to chump and waited for him to try and win... Whether that was through Fling or Berserk I wasn't sure but either way would be wrecked by my Swords. So Leo Swings, I intelligently block his Ravager and he goes all in on his Frogmite after floating R1 (Telegraphing Fling!) So I graciously farm his Frogmite with a Swords with the Ravager's modular trigger on the stack. Leo scoops after I play a Hierarch.

Game 2: I draw Deed. Nothing to see here.

Round 2: Matt Rubio w/Dancing Ghoul

I built this deck in the leadup to GP: Philadelphia hoping to break the metagame in half. Tough luck Charlie, this deck sucks against anything not called "Goblins" and only before boarding. Not that the deck was built wrong or anything, as it was pretty close to optimal in my opinion. It's just that the deck dies to the most commonly played removal in the format. :D

Anyways, I win the die roll and lead off with Duress taking his Brainstorm. Then on the next turn I Therapy him and Flash it back for a full-blown Mind Twist effect on the second turn. After I land a Baloth Matt recovers a bit and topdecks Buried Alive and Shallow Grave consecutively. I graciously Swords his Immense Ghoul and happily move on to game 2.

I board out Deeds and Vindicates thinking they're dreck against him, bringing in Chants, Duress and Echoes.

I roll him pretty quick with the Beatdown plan after I Therapy him for his Therapies so he can't take out my Swords. His Morph gets Swordsed so he can't Flash therapy and I steamroll him.

Wow, so that was nice. 3-0 and #1 going into the top 4.

T4: More of the same.

Leo with Affinity (Again!)

I'm only in any danger after he ends up with a 13/13 Myr Enforcer due to a timely Deed and excellent chump blocking. Double Vindicate after that ruins him. I win in straight sets.

Matt with Ghoul (Again!)

I screw up in game 1 by not therapying him for therapy so he's able to take out my Swords and he gets a Ghoul FTW.

I can't recall how I win game 2 but I'm sure it involved multiple, life-gaining 4/4's.

I score a win in the third game on a sick, Kicked Orim's Chant while presenting lethal damage on the board and Baloth recursion with Stronghold.

I sweep the tournament in (relatively) cheap fashion.

Afterwards I play some games against Carl who was playing Vial Goblins. I go .500 against the red men in testing due to some rotten luck on my part. I fail to draw a single green source in one game but triple Swords, double Therapy and double Vindicate simulate a game against the red army. In another I Therapy 6 times or something and win (duh.) Anyways, I need more testing against that deck although there's literally 0 skill involved in beating that deck other than memorizing their list and responding to what their first play is with Therapy. It also is insanely helpful when your opponent shows you the cards in their hand when you possess Therapy. Hurr. Thank you Goblin Matron.

Other notes: Did a ton of testing against Solidarity on Friday night. I literally lost 1 game out of 12 or so after boarding. Solidarity cannot win the game apparently if Ichneumon Druid is out. Then I tested against Spring Tide on Saturday and got my ass handed to me in like 4 games even after boarding. Meditate is gay. So apparently I can only take hands that have some strong sauce in them against Solidarity and expect to win, which I got on Friday but not on Saturday. I'm thinking about breaking down however and buying Chains. Ow, the cost. My thought is, how the F do you lose if you get that combination of cards in play?

[sammiel]

so I'm playing a build pretty close to Majestyks, my only real question is, have you considered condemn instead of infest in the SB?

Also, can the deck get away with a copy or two of nantuko monastery? I've been playtesting two copies, and haven't run into too much in the way of mana problems, but I'm not sure.

[Majestyk1136]

Wasteland Love you long time...

I'm currently trying to figure out how to cram Genesis into this deck so I can either ditch stronghold or not worry about it

Recurring your men is tech, but not at the cost of your drawstep.

On condemn: Your pick here is Wrath of God or targeted removal. What decks does condemn function better against than Infest? Does anybody besides us and maybe reanimator attack with men bigger than ours? I might be wrong but I don't really think so. You already have access to 4 STP's, if you're interested in more targeted removal try Smother.

[sammiel]

Wasteland Love you long time...

I'm currently trying to figure out how to cram Genesis into this deck so I can either ditch stronghold or not worry about it

Recurring your men is tech, but not at the cost of your drawstep.

On condemn: Your pick here is Wrath of God or targeted removal. What decks does condemn function better against than Infest? Does anybody besides us and maybe reanimator attack with men bigger than ours? I might be wrong but I don't really think so. You already have access to 4 STP's, if you're interested in more targeted removal try Smother.


Yeah, I didn't go with monastery and I'm glad I didn't.

Regarding Infest vs Condemn: I dropped my first ever match to goblins at a tournament saturday, g1 was just a blowout. G2 I won because of infest, G3 I had to mull to 5 and he had double wastehand. I could have pulled G3 if I had condemn over infest, but there's no way I would have won G2, heh.

This was a small tournament, so there was only 1 combo player. I think I should have left the druids at home in favor of more removal, but that was the last of the local legacy tournaments since the guy who was hosting them is graduating.

I scrubbed out badly, going 1-1-2, drawing round 1 against 4c threshold (I KNOW WTF). Game 1 I beat him to 1 and he stabilized with a fucking mystic enforcer when vindicate was the only removal I could draw. Game 2 I beat him into paste, Game 3 went to time a couple turns before he would have beaten me.

Game 2 was my goblins loss.

Game 3 I drew against Hanni Fish, pretty much the same way my thresh matchup went, G1 I deeded into stifle instead of waiting to pop it with discard, G2 he extirpated my deeds so I just turned 4/4s sideways and backed them up with swords, G3 went to time, he extirpated my vindicates and would have beaten me. I actually regretted not conceding, cause that draw ruined his chances of top 4 and I don't give a damn about my rating. I also boarded very badly for this matchup.

Game 4 I goldfished against some random deck who might as well have not been playing


My lesson is that I should have just fucking played stax, but I really do like this deck. Maybe drop something for a fourth deed.

[Majestyk1136]

Look, you can play IHATEGOBLINS.dec and still lose to them sometimes because the deck is just a beating at times.

You have so many ways of beating fish and thresh that I'm willing to chalk your losses up to bad luck. There's no other explanation for it. Sometimes your opponents misewell too. There's been times that I've stomped the crap out of everything and other times that I've gone down in flames against the same exact decks that I pounded earlier. That's magic for you I suppose.

[sammiel]

Look, you can play IHATEGOBLINS.dec and still lose to them sometimes because the deck is just a beating at times.

You have so many ways of beating fish and thresh that I'm willing to chalk your losses up to bad luck. There's no other explanation for it. Sometimes your opponents misewell too. There's been times that I've stomped the crap out of everything and other times that I've gone down in flames against the same exact decks that I pounded earlier. That's magic for you I suppose.


I agree with pretty much everything you said, my comment about playing stax is because there were no basic lands in the top 4.

Infest is definitely the way to go, I just really like deed which is why I suggested 4.

I think that Ichneumon Druid might be too narrow, since it only affects solidarity and certain Iggy/TES hands, and deed is only dead against solidarity.

Changes I'm going to try:

-3 Hymn
+3 Hypnotic Specter

-3 Ichneumon Druid
+3 Rule of Law


Rule of Law is similar to druid in that it has to be answered before solidarity can combo off, but it works against other combo. Obviously you have to last to turn 3/4 to cast it, but thats what duress and cabal therapy are for.

Hypnotic Specter is just a random change that I wanted to try, no real clue if it's going to work. It increases your threat density against combo and control, and against combo it keeps pressure on their hand. Hymn seems unnecessary when you are running 4x duress and 4x cabal therapy. Although these could instead become something like 1x Vindicate, 1x Pernicious Deed, 1x Eternal Witness, but i doubt it's worth diluting the SB like that.

Just some ideas.

[Anarky87]

I agree with pretty much everything you said, my comment about playing stax is because there were no basic lands in the top 4.

Unless you count David's Mountains in Goblins. Otherwise that's true, I didn't have any in my 4c Thresh.

[sammiel]

were you the guy with black thresh? yeah, i didn't realize you were 4c, my wtf comment was directed at my friend isaac, who puts shit like research/development and isochron in threshold, and I'm pretty sure he had zero basics also.

just a frustrating tournament debut for a deck that I know can perform better than it did. Unless a miracle occurs and I make it to GP columbus, I doubt i'll be able to hit any legacy tournaments for a couple months, so that gives me alot of time to test some tweaks on the deck.

[Majestyk1136]

I've been playing around with Sphere of Resistance in the board as a more general answer to combo.

the Problem with it is that it's practically painless for them to remove it beyond a certain point because It really only buys about 1-2 turns unless you savagely rip multiples.

Any answer that you play in your board is liable to be too narrow for a given matchup due to the fact that Solidarity and other combo decks rely on different functions to win.

In general, the Rock is "too Broad" if anything against certain, narrow, glass cannon style decks like Belcher unless you open the game on the play with Duress and follow it up with Therapy and a clock. This is a concession to the reality that we're not playing FoW but are trying to beat FoW at the same time.

In the board the most obvious target for replacement in my opinion is Hymn. Bulk discard is great, but at what price?

It's almost like I would rather have those cards be something else that damages combo by being in play in order to balance out the Hand hate/permanent threats equation of the deck. At least the Druid makes a deck like Solidarity "play fair" because they can't combo off through it and if they can get rid of it they've probably done a great deal of damage to themselves and in the process spent a lot of resources that they may well not have due to your hand hate.

So that leads me to the conclusion that Hymn should probably become Sphere of Resistance, as it is extremely damaging to a deck like IGGy. That is unless you think that that slot would be better devoted to a card like Trinisphere because Sph3re will hurt you less in the aggregate at the top end of your curve. It also is horrid in multiples whereas SoR gives you added benefit for each additional instance of it you draw.

One last thing that I've been fooling with is the notion of using Gerrard's verdict in the Hymn slot so that you can keep lands in your hand against certain decks in order to gain 6 life. This seems pretty weak but the early offensive capabilities of the card might make it worth it, especially when you're in the late game and playing land no. 8 makes no sense at all.

Overgrown Estate sort of serves the same purpose, but it obviously worse outside of a LftL engine and lifegain is dreck unless it comes stapled to a 4/4.

[morgan_coke]

Ok, first off just to warn everyone, this is an extended port-ish. and its only tuned to beat the big three, which it does in every case, though threshold is only slightly over 50% and very draw dependent.

Creatures
4x Wall of Blossoms
3x Darkheart Sliver
3x Ravenous Baloth

Mana Creatures
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Yavimaya Elder

Recursion
1x Genesis
2x Eternal Witness
1x Volrath's Stronghold

Removal
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Pyroclasm

Draw
4x Harmonize
2x Diabolic Intent

Discard
4x Cabal Therapy

Lands
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Bayou
1x Taiga
1x Badlands
6x Forest
3x Swamp
1x Mountain

Sideboard
3x Ancient Grudge
4x Headhunter
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Tormod's Crypt
1x Stronghold Assassin

Goblins is a very positive matchup for you. You usually won't be able to stop lackey from attacking on the draw, but the fact that you can pyrocalsm him and whoever he fetched out kinda makes up for that. The Darkhearts are what really turn the goblin matchup around though, that card as absolutely amazing, its like having a bunch of extra baloths that come down on a relevant turn and don't die to fanatic. The walls also do a great job of slowing down their attacks/damage while digging you deeper into your library. The extremely resilient manabase (10 basics!) also helps out a lot in the goblins matchup. There really isn't any need to sideboard here as the deck is basically pre-boarded for goblins already. matron is the card you really, really want to hit with therapy here, followed by ringleader, then warchief.

Solidarity is almost an auto-loss game one, which is the price you pay for pre-boarding against goblins. Games 2 and 3 however, look a lot better. pulling the Intents, Pyroclasms, and two Bolts for four Headhunters and four Hymns really does wonders. Remand is always the first card I've been naming with Therapy, since it basically timewalks you and prevents your discard from resolving. Headhunter is picked over Hypnotic because you really just want to empty their hand as fast as possible and then keep it empty. Headhunter comes down earlier than Hypnotic. Just hit them with discard and keep it coming and i've found that post board is very heavily (70%) in your favor.

Threshold is very draw dependent, and mystic enforcer is a huge problem if it comes down, since your only out against it is 2x bolt, or race/genesis recursion with birds. Overall though, slightly in your favor, moreso the longer the game goes.

While the deck does play very well against the big three, and except against solidarity needs little to no sideboarding, it does have some absolutely glaring weaknesses against every deck not in the big three. the ancient grudges and crypts are nice against a lot of the field, and the assassin helps to cover against random critter.dec, but really, any form of faerie or angel stompy absolutely owns this deck, as all of your removal is red damage based, and therefore sucks against things with pro:red or high toughness. the deck is also exceptionally weak against things that fly.

I'd love to hear suggestions on how to improve the tier 2/3 matchups, since none of them are particularly close to good right now, but i'd also like to do that without sacrificing the edge the deck has against the big three. all thoughts/suggestions appreciated.

Again, I realize this deck is very different from most of the lists posted here, but first, don't knock darkheart sliver 'til you've tried him, he's amazing. second, as i said, right now this only beats the big three, and needs serious help to deal with other tier2/3 decks.

[Majestyk1136]

Ok, first off just to warn everyone, this is an extended port-ish. and its only tuned to beat the big three, which it does in every case, though threshold is only slightly over 50% and very draw dependent.

Creatures
4x Wall of Blossoms
3x Darkheart Sliver
3x Ravenous Baloth

Mana Creatures
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Yavimaya Elder

Recursion
1x Genesis
2x Eternal Witness
1x Volrath's Stronghold

Removal
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Pyroclasm

Draw
4x Harmonize
2x Diabolic Intent

Discard
4x Cabal Therapy

Lands
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Bayou
1x Taiga
1x Badlands
6x Forest
3x Swamp
1x Mountain

Sideboard
3x Ancient Grudge
4x Headhunter
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Tormod's Crypt
1x Stronghold Assassin



Well, being as you've gone to playing Macey Rock why not start playing with FTK as well because he 187's your opponent's men. :/ [/sarcasm]

OK, I'll get serious here. I want to start with some positives: The interaction between all of your creatures that do things when they come in/leave play and Diabolic Intent is pretty techy. I like it. Would you consider dropping 1 of those Pyroclasms from the main and putting a Deed in there in its place for variability's sake? Meddling Mage Loves you...

I like the idea of Harmonize as a method of bulk card draw... I hadn't even thought of it to be honest with you. But making it a 4-of is asking for trouble.

What does red add that white doesn't do much better? Instead of bolt you get Swords which hits more threats in this format... There are decks that play 8 pro-red dudes in the main. 'Nuff said. You neglected to put Pyrostatic pillar in the board which actually can neuter combo decks as opposed to headhunter. Sometimes Rit->Hyppie isn't fast enough to kill the combo decks in this format. Why would giving your opponent the opportunity to pick what they discard be better?

White also gives you chant in the board which is obviously an invaluable tool against Combo.

Ancient Grudge? Deed. If Affinity is a problem just brutalize them instead of playing footsie.

So, I really like the direction you went with this; just make sure you finish strongly and supply some results for us to look at.

[morgan_coke]

I should have been more clear when I said this was an extendedish port, its much more a port of extended control flow than the aggro macey rock which was popular for awhile.

Well, I'll start off with why I run Red over White. White does give you a lot more card options and better removal and better game against combo. But Red gives you two very, very important things that White doesn't.

#1) Mana Stability. Ok, the mana stability issue is easy to overlook in a format with fetches and the original duals, but one of the biggest strengths of this deck, and a key reason it beats goblins, is the incredible resiliency of its 10 basic land manabase, and the ease with which it can find any color of mana it needs/wants from a basic land with its fetchlands. Black and Green naturally intersect (fetchland mana wise) at red, not white.

#2) Pyroclasm. This is flat out the best anti-Goblin card ever printed. Better than E. Plague, better than Wrath, better than Infest. Why? Because it costs two mana, completely sweeps their board, and leaves most of yours intact. That's whats so great about the card.

Pernicious Deed. I tried adding three for a Forest, a Bolt, and a Pyroclasm. Was short on mana, cut the third deed for the forest. Works pretty good now, solid addition that really helps out with the non goblins aggro matchups. Also nice to have against Threshold.

I strongly get the feeling that one forest could be cut for a non basic land that produces G and does something useful, but unfortunately, while the FS lands are all amazing, the green ones don't really fit that well into what this deck is trying to do. Treetop Village looks to be the best bet here, though Svogthos is a more dedicated, bigger lategame threat, and given the high number of basics, Thawing Glaciers is also an option, though I'm not really sure the deck can afford the speed loss Glaciers would bring.

I really like the four Harmonizes because its just such a strong play in this deck. Rock decks have always run like a billion different forms of card advantage to try and get over the fact that they lack pure draw. Now, not so much. I would never cut the Harmonize count below three, and if I did cut it that low, I think I'd replace the fourth copy with something like Stronghold Assassin. Or Sadistic Hypnotist. Which is pretty much a five mana Mind Twist given the number of Birds, Walls, and Elders you have to sacrifice to him.

The board still needs a lot of work, but I wouldn't be terribly opposed to some Terminates or Ghostflames or Edicts in there if you're concerned about things that Bolt can't kill. The Grudges aren't for Affinity, they're more for Chalices and Equipment and Stax pieces. Though with the addition of Deeds maindeck perhaps they aren't so necessary anymore.

I'd agree that the deck probably wants something other than Hymn in the board for use against combo, but one of the only answers I can think of, which I truly hate to mention, because it is such a subpar card is Extirpate. Against Solidarity you nail the first High Tide they cast, true they'll just Wish it back, but a lot of the time it's enough to stop them from going off that particular turn, thus buying you more time. Against IGGy, you simply nail whatever they're trying to get back with IGG. And against Salvagers game, you hit the LEDs. Its not an ideal solution by any means, but it does prevent combos answer of simply finishing going off while your answer is on the stack.

[JCteam_ripio]

I've been playing variations of GB rock for a while and came up with this build

Creatures
4x Birds of paradaise
4x Sakura-tribe elder
4x Troll ascetic
3x Eternal witness
3x Ravenous Baloth
2x Withered Wretch

Spells
3x Hymn to tourach
4x Burning wish
2x Putrefy
4x Lightning bolt
2x Umezawa's jitte
3x cabal therapy

Lands
4x Bayou
1x Badland
2x Taiga
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Treetop village
2x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wooded Foothills
4x forest
2x swamp
1x mountain

SB
3x Pyroclasm
2x Pitting needle
2x Krosan grip
1x Harmonize
1x Damnation
1x Haunting echoes
1x Hull breach
1x Chainer's edict
1x Cranial extraction
1x Rude awakening
1x Cabal therapy

Comments?

[Majestyk1136]

I've been playing variations of GB rock for a while and came up with this build

Creatures
4x Birds of paradaise
4x Sakura-tribe elder
4x Troll ascetic
3x Eternal witness
3x Ravenous Baloth
2x Withered Wretch

Spells
4x Hymn to tourach
3x Burning wish
2x Putrefy
4x Lightning bolt
2x Umezawa's jitte
3x cabal therapy

Lands
4x Bayou
1x Badland
2x Taiga
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Treetop village
2x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wooded Foothills
4x forest
2x swamp
1x mountain

SB
3x Pyroclasm
3x Pitting needle
2x Krosan grip
1x Harmonize
1x Damnation
1x Haunting echoes
1x Hull breach
1x Cruel edict
1x Cranial extraction
1x Rude awakening

Comments?

How bout Chainer's Edict there buddy? What about Haunting Echoes instead of Extraction? Graveyard hate does not consist of 2 MD Wretches... Why pithing needle? For Vial?

Lightning Bolt can Dome people... why is it better than Swords in Legacy? I can think of 1 matchup where I would rather have bolt than Swords. Refer to my Living Wish version for a Wish fuelled deck. Therapy is the best sorcery in your deck... you should play 4.

[JCteam_ripio]

You're right about Chainer's Edict I already did the change, Haunting Echoes is already there, Cranial Extraction is always good in the wish board. Graveyard hate is not that needed in my meta, Wretch is tech against Tarmo (because you can affect both graveyards). I did cut one needle for the forth cabal therapy in the sideboard (I'm not sure if duress will be better). I use needle for vial and factories most of the time, belcher is a good target too.

StP vs bolt, I love StP but my deck is GB splash red for Burning wish (I've cut a tourach to squeeze the forth wish because they're sooooooo good) bolt will never be a death card, as you've said, and I don't want to splash white right now.

[feuerizer]

Hello,

I am running the white-splash version at the moment. I like the deck very much because it is pure board control, so aggro-decks are on the loose.

My biggest problem is not to have a draw engine or something to ensure card quality (although there is so many card quality inside this deck).

I was thinking about running Sensei´s Divining Top but I dont know how to squeeze it in.
Btw I dont want to play Truffle Shuffle.

Here is my current main-list:

Lands
4xWindswept Heath
2xBloodstained Mire
4xBayou
3xScrubland
4xForest
3xSwamp
1xPlains
1xVolrath´s Stronghold

Creatures
3xEternal Wittness
3xSakura-Tribe Elder
4xWall of Blossoms
3xTroll Ascetic
2xRavenous Baloth
2xLoxodon Hierarch
4xBirds of Paradise

Spells
3xPernicious Deed
3xDuress
4xCabal Therapy
4xSwords to Plowshares
3xVindicate

Any ideas?

I tried to take out the birds:
-4 Birds
+3 Top
+1 Forest

That configuration was ok, but I missed the Birds. The deck is so mana-hungry.

[Galroth]

My suggestion:

-1 Vindicate (It's a bit slow; you won't need it immediately and you can use SDT to sift for it later on.)

-1 Land (Top costs next to nothing and if you're having land issues, it can usually take care of the problem at the cost of a single activation. My recommendation is probably a Scrubland.)

The last choice is hard. 3 SDT's are the appropriate amount imo. That much I'm in complete agreement with. I'm tempted to remove either a Baloth or a Loxodon, however, I think you should up your fetchlands to atleast 7 maybe 8. And both Baloth and Loxodon serve to mitigate the lost of life. You're other option, is probably a creature mana-accelerant. From the looks of it, you can probably afford the loss of a Bird or a STE. It's a difficult choice though.

Good Luck.

[feuerizer]

Thanks for your ideas.

I disagree a little bit. The deck is very mana hungry, thus I dont want to go below a land count of 22. This deck is a board control deck and wants a land drop every turn for the first 5 rounds. Thats why cutting a bird is improper either.

A Ravenous or Hierach is a possible choice.
But there is the problem with the life loss, especially when the fetch count is set to 8 which is necessary to support Top as filter for card quality.

I havent tested 2 Vindicates so far.
It has always been a good card to hold in hand as a backup. You have control, your opponent topdecks an Exalted Angel for example. There comes Vindicate.

[n00bas4urus_r3x]

I found this thread the most suppressing to see pop for the "Rock Variants" movement into ATW. Here's three more threads people interested in this archetype to check out.

Funk Brew (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4504) - Weenie based aggro rock, with hand disruption, and winning through River Boa, Mire Boa, Tarmogoyf, and Glittering Wish.

Rockguy Bwg (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6238) - A conversion of Deadguy, with elements of discard and land destruction.

Truffle Shuffle (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3816) - An Elgin creation, this is a heavy control deck utilizing discard and board sweepers for control, and Sensei's Divining Top and in some cases, Glittering Wish for card quality.

Note: These are only pulled from the Established Deck Forum, and there are multiple others in the N&D Forum.

Some observations on the archetype:

Dark Confidant: If you're playing a creature based rock deck, odds are he'll be in it. I don't think the card advantage Bob can generate really has to be explained.

Tarmogoyf: He's ok I hear.

SDT: Without blue, this is probably the best card filtering available to the archetype. What builds should it be played in, and should it be played over Glittering Wish?

Glittering Wish: Similar role to Top. Does it deserve to see play, and if so, what in what builds?

Pernicious Deed: Amazing board sweeper. If you're playing BG, you should be playing Deed.

Duress vs. Thoughsieze vs. Hymn vs. Cabal Therapy: Again this is based on the build you play. What is the right combination of these spells to fully flush out discard strategies?

[Happy Gilmore]

The rock? Seriously? I never thought I would see this deck in the dtb forum. Is combo that sparce that a midrange deck like this can do well?

[Jak]

I think a list could be tuned to be very good in the meta game. You would probably start out with this core

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress

Add more creatures and removal. The hard part of the decks is figuring out how to accel into the bigger fatties and disruption.

[Anarky87]

I believe a list could do pretty well, given that it would play a lot of the cards Aggro-Control and Aggro hate to see.

4 Thoughtseize
3 Therapy
3 Extirpate

4 Smother
4 Pernicious Deed
2-3 Engineered Explosives
0-2 Putrefy

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Sakura Trible Elder (Is there something better now?)
3 Ravenous Baloth

I'm not sure what creatures you'd run anymore. Troll and Baloth used to be the norm, but Tarmogoyf is too good to not include and I believe better than Troll. But the idea was to make Deed non-symmetrical. You could play a Deed and blow it for 2-3, wipe their board, but still have a Troll and Baloth on your side. With Goyf, you become more reliant on Witness/Recursion engines (Stronghold/Genesis) to bring your big dudes back. That may not be that bad though. Perhaps Tomstalker could fit in somewhere.

I'm not sure. I used to play and develop The Rock a lot, but I'm not sure what a correct, updated build would look like.

[Illissius]

Is there any reason not to splash white for Swords and Doran? Doran is about the only fattie left who is close to as attractive as Tarmogoyf. You have to go up to five mana for something like Spiritmonger (maybe four for Korlash or Wumpus) to even try to outclass the Lhurgoyf on raw size. And Goyf plus Doran still leaves you with the Deed problem. Another interesting comparison of merits would be with GBW Survival, given that you run a base of much of the same cards (discard, Goyf, Birds, Witness). The main difference is bullets versus good cards, and Survival versus Deed, though you can run both.

Tombstalker is an idea, but then I think you really want to run blue for the cantrip suite.

[Barook]

Just wondering: How good is Shriekmaw in a deck that runs any combination of Stronghold, Witness and Genesis? A 2-card combo (in which both cards are good on their own) which turns into a recurring creature kill engine at an acceptable cost sounds alright to me. Sure, Shriekmaws removal potential is limited, but it could be worth it.

[Turbographics]

I think that shriekmaw is a fantastic idea. Recurring creature kill sets you up for the later game and a post-deed board.

[Soto]

What I'm questioning in the deck is the Birds of Paradise and the Sakura Tribe Elder. BoP are good for Engineered Explosives, but the deck doesn't really need acceleration like that, does it?

[outsideangel]

Just wondering: How good is Shriekmaw in a deck that runs any combination of Stronghold, Witness and Genesis? A 2-card combo (in which both cards are good on their own) which turns into a recurring creature kill engine at an acceptable cost sounds alright to me. Sure, Shriekmaws removal potential is limited, but it could be worth it.

If you're going to recur a creature, it should either be a) something that beats Tarmogoyf, or b) Tarmogoyf.

Shriekmaw falls into category a. Being able to kill every 'goyf your opponent plays is strong.

[Drizztjah]

Just wondering: How good is Shriekmaw in a deck that runs any combination of Stronghold, Witness and Genesis? A 2-card combo (in which both cards are good on their own) which turns into a recurring creature kill engine at an acceptable cost sounds alright to me. Sure, Shriekmaws removal potential is limited, but it could be worth it.

Shriekmaw combined with Volrath's Stronghold is totally insane. It actually becomes Terror with buyback. This why I hardly "hardcast" Shriekmaw in my Giftsrock deck, because I WANT him to be in my graveyard. I think at least one should be in every Rock deck maindecked.

I don't really like Doran. He has its uses, but what does he do that Loxodon Hierarch can't? They are both beaters, but 4 life for free is nothing to scoff at. Not to mention that Doran puts a big stress on your manabase, since he can only be cast exclusively out of colored mana. Besides, combined with Deed, Witness and perhaps Troll or Putrefy the 3cc slot is rather full already.

I'm also not a fan of Sakure Tribe Elder. To me this is the kind of card that is great in extended but just not good enough for Legacy. He also requires you to run much more basic lands than you should actually be running. Also keep in mind that most Extended rock decks have a strong "domain" subtheme, which allows them to play cards like Collective Restraint or Global Ruin. This obviously won't work in Legacy since it is rather slow and clunky and also because Extended doesn't know this little card called Wasteland anymore.

I like Birds of Paradise much more. He can accelerate in to turn 2 P. Deed, which can be a huge difference. Smoothens your mana curve, and has much and much better synergy with Cabal Therapy. Not to mention that he is an alternative mana source, for when you suspect your opponent might be playing a card like Armageddon.

Ow and if you haven't already tested it, you should really try Gifts Ungiven out. That card is totally nuts. Don't worry about having to splash blue, your mana base is already your weakest link; so it won't make alot of difference anyway. But really this is the kind of card that gets you even when you are behind and wins the game for you when you are even. I am the Belgian guy who top 8 ed with Gifts Rock by the way, so if you guys want I can explain the deck a bit more. The list I ran back than is already outdated, so don't rely on it too much. :)

[VuRkka]

Is there any reason not to splash white for Swords and Doran?
White also gives you Vindicate and Glittering Wish. The latter gives you card quality, not only in form of Vindicate and Deed, but in form of large beaters that in my opinion would otherwise be one/two offs anyways(Hierarch, Enforcer, Monger..), it also lets you use fifth/sixth board sweeper: Crime/Punishment. It's rather expensive(if x=>1) to use on the turn you wish for it, but it does the job well(And with white, you can use both sides).


I'm also not a fan of Sakure Tribe Elder. To me this is the kind of card that is great in extended but just not good enough for Legacy.
I've been running Sakuras with succesful results, I'm running 6 basic lands(2 of each) which have always been fetchable for them. After all, manabase is the weakest link for three colored decks and Wasteland can't hit basics. Deed's effect is symmetric and it takes away your BoP. (And above all, I'm saving 20$ for not playing that one Savannah, yay!)
Sure, BoP accelerates you for a faster Deed but as I see it, it would only be usable for a giant load of Goblins(ETW) or Zombies(BfB), which imo should be dealed with before they hit the board.

The biggest problem with The Rock, as I see it, is the combo matchup. I've been running 4 Duress, 4 Thoughtseize and 3 Extirpate in the MD and 3 Abeyance and 3 Gaddock Teeg(wishable) on SB. Leylines would be the right choice here, but as I don't own them(yet), I haven't got a chance to test them.

[Berzerked]

@Drizztjah: I'd love to hear about your current Gifts Rock list for Legacy. I had played it in Extended and loved it, but was never able to make a successful port, so any explination would be great.

[Drizztjah]

This is the decklist that I'm playing at the moment.

4*Bayou
4*Savannah
2*Tropical Island
4*Wasteland
4*Windswepth Heath
2*Wooded Foothills
2*Forest
1*Volrath's Stronghold

4*Birds of Paradise
4*Tarmogoyf
4*Eternal Witness
3*Loxodon Hierarch
1*Shriekmaw
1*Indrik Stomphowler

4*Thoughtseize
4*Night's Whisper
1*Regrowth
4*Pernicious Deed
1*Putrefy
1*Crucible of Worlds
3*Gifts Ingiven
2*Crime / Punishment

sb:

4*Leyline of the Void
4*Krosan Grip
4*Trinisphere
3*Duress

I always thought that Gifts Ungiven was the most powerful card in Legacy that didn't see any play. But since the printing of Tarmogoyf it is much easier to get even in the early game and play Gifts Ungiven without having to give your opponent a free Time Walk. This is a huge evolution of course and really makes the card viable in Legacy.
I think everybody knows by now that Gifts Ungiven is broken. I mean, just compare to Diabolic Tutor. Gifts is twice the effect for a splashable cost and at instant speed. It also is / was huge in every other constructed format.

Your gameplan is as followed against most decks: stall the board at all costs in the early game and come out ahead with your card advantage or by setting up Gifts Ungiven. The hard part is of course to figure out what the correct Gifts pile is, and that differs from match up to match up and from situation to situation.

Let's take the following scenario. You are playing the mirror match against another mid range rockish deck. The board is as followed: Both players have sufficient mana of all needed colors and both players have Tarmogoyf in play as only creature. You play Gifts eot. The first thing you need to realise is that Gifts Ungiven has insanely strong synergy with Tarmogoyf. You could tutor up card types that aren't in a graveyard yet to grow the Goyfs. But since both players have a Goyf in play, it would be better to get a better boardposition instead.
It is important at this point to understand that your board position is exactly even; alot of mana and Goyfs that are both just as big. The thing you want is to get ahead and preferably get in a winning position. You could tutor up removal to get rid of your opponents' Goyf or tutor up creatures to get ahead aswell. Or you could do both. I think it is obvious that we would want to search for Shriekmaw here, since it is removal and a creature. We should also get Eternal Witness, in case they put the Shriekmaw in our yard. Basically splitting a Gifts pile with Witness will always be hell for your opponent, and most will put the Witness in the yard and give you two bombs instead. That means we still need to find two bombs. I think we should get another removal card, preferably Putrefy, here to make the pile stronger. The forth card should be a second creature since we want to finish the game. The question is Goyf or Hierarch? I think no matter how big the Goyf will be after Gifts resolves we should go for Hierarch here. Because there is always a risk of our opponent topdecking his own Deed and Hierarch is harder to kill, plus he has a sac ability that can keep our Goyf in play if necessary.
So to resume: I believe the correct pile here would be: Shriekmaw, Eternal Witness, Loxodon Hierarch and Putrefy. No matter how you put our opponent is screwed and unless he has a strong answer he will lose the game right here, right now.

I gave a scenario where we were even with our opponent, now let's see what happens when we are behind against the same deck. The board is as followed: both players have sufficient mana and our opponent has two big and nasty Tarmogoyfs into play, let's assume they are 5/6. Our life total is still relatively high, say 15; but that does mean that we can't wait a zillion more turns to get an answer anymore. He just played the Goyfs so they still have summoning sickness, but we don't have an answer in our hand. Even worse the only thing we have in our hand is Gifts Ungiven! So what to do? It is obvious that Crime / punishment and Pernicious Deed will get rid of both Goyfs at once, so we will definitely want to get those. Our opponent however is not a fool, and will certainly not give these to us and put them in our graveyard instead. So now we have two options: get other tools, or make sure we do get Pernicious Deed and / or Crime / Punishment. In option A we should get two more cards that can get us even (Shriekmaw, Putrefy, our own Goyf), in option B we need to tutor up Eternal Witness and can even get the lone Regrowth; this way we always get what we want. Let's say we go for option A and go for P. Deed, Crime / Punishment, Putrefy and Shriekmaw. Our opponent will probably give us the two latter cards and that is fine; because it will get us even. If we go for option B and go for P. Deed, Crime Punishment, Witness and Regrowth. They will probably give us Regrowth and another card. If they give us Witness, we will even be able to get Witness in play after wrathing their board and thus get ahead. This is very strong, but does cost us alot of mana. However, unless our opponent has an answer or another threat we get at least even, and possibly get ahead.


The hardest part about this deck is the very thin line between consistency and flexibility. Since Gifts is a Tutor, we could technically build our deck around it by turning it into one giant toolbox and have answers to virtually everything. However turning our deck into a highlander deck doesn't really sound that great at all, plus what do we do when we don't draw into Gifts? This means that we should also try to make our deck as consistent as possible. the question is where do we draw the line? And I have to admit, I haven't found that line yet. I started really basic. All 4 of's including Gifts and slowly add 1 of's and see what would happen. And I'm still doing that. The last thing I did was adding the Indrik Stomphowler maindeck.


Now let me explain some cardchoices or lack of them :)

Birds of Paradise vs Sakure Tribe Elder. I already explained what I had to say about this. But if you like the elder more, than by all means play him. But this of course also means that you have to add, alot, more basics.

Volrath's Stronghold vs Genesis. I believe Stronghold to be superior and here is why. Stronghold is a land, so it doesn't cost you a spell slot.
Getting Genesis in the yard can sometimes be harder than it seemsand if you Gifts for it they will probably put it into your hand.
Genesis also requires you to tap out during your own upkeep, this doesn't sound sexy for a control deck.
The big advantage of Genesis is that it actually gives card advantage, whereas Stronghold just replaces your draw. This can be huge, but in reality it hardly ever is, because you will draw a bomb either way.

Crucible of Worlds. Why not play 1 Life from the Loam instead you ask? Basically I wanted 1 artifact in my deck to support my Goyfs. I started with Jitte, but I was really underwhelmed since they almost never did what another card couldn't do better. And than I wondered why not add 1 Crucible instead, not only does it draw me cards through recurring fetchlands and can it return my fallen Stronghold, it also improves two of my worser match ups: Landstill and Loam. Being able to have answer to their manabase and their attacks on your own manabase is huge. Wastelandlock can be slow but it still effective as hell. Another reason why I opt it over LftL is the fact that Loam costs me two mana each turn, which is very bad for an already slow deck like this one. Yes it can be Krosan Grip'ed, and will often even get Krosan Grip'ed. But with so many graveyard recursion it will be only a matter of time before the faeces hit the fan again.

Crime / Punishment. I used to not like this card alot. I mean Deed is so much better, right? Until I realised that it was totally different than Deed. Yes both cards have the same effect, namely hose their board. But in a different way. Punishment is a bit slower and clunkier, but is selective removal. So you can kill their Hypnotic Specter while your Goyf lives. Also, and don't underestimate this because it is very relevant, Punishment doesn't get hosed by Pithing Needle. Nothing is more annoying than turn 1 Pithing Needle on Deed. It just makes me want to slice my opponent's throat open ;d But seriously, this is often a Deed that is immune to Pithing Needle. Or it compliments your Deed that is already on the board, but virtually jobless because of the Pithing Needle.

Thougthseize. This card is just that good and can be crucial against combo. I play this over Cabal Therapy, because it is much more safe. But it is probably personal preference I guess.

Night's Whisper. Basically I wanted a cheap draw spell that could set up my mid game and I ended up with this. The other option was Dark Confidant, but flipping Crime / Punishment doesn't sound that good and I wanted draw that would actually draw instead of being a huge removal magnet. Night's Whisper is cheap, efficient and also doesn't scream COUNTER ME!!! Great card and very underrated in my opinion.

Regrowth. The one Regrowth is here to support Gifts. I explained how it would be in the scenario where you always get what you wanted. But Regrowth isn't that bad on its own. Playing it turn two to get a fetchland back isn't the worst play ever, so I think its inclusion is justified. It's cute and good.

Trinisphere is my obligatory sideboard card against combo. Combine this with your discard and maybe you can even win a game by racing them :p

[meanee]

You certainly have a different list! Thats for sure. As you point out yourself, it seems that you have destroyed some of the decks consistency for need tricks and "comboes". Or flexibility... I think it's not that hard to make a very flexible more "traditional" bg rocktype deck.

Have you considered GArruck Wildspeaker. Even though I hate those planeswalkers like evryone hates craprares, I think Garruck has real potential in this deck. It is so nice to play a turn 3 garruck - tarmogoyf... Or just nuke your opponents bord with a deed, and then proceed to kill him with the sole surviver... Garruck.
And he "comboes" with one of my favorite critters of all times: Ravenous baloth... I know it very much a cookie interaction, but I think it could be viable.

I have taken this deckconcept up for a spin again and my latest build (I change them all the time, because I can't decide which of all the good cards I should use) looks like this:

2 ravenous baloth
2 eternal witness
4 birds of paradise
4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf

3 garruck wildspeaker

4 pernicious deed
3 putrefy
3 ghastly demise
4 duress
4 thoughtseize

4 bayou
4 wasteland
4 windswept heath
2 bloodstained mire
2 wooded foothills
2 volrath’s stronghold
2 swamp
3 forest

And then a sideboard that battles combo a bit more. And ugly decks like goblins... My little testing of the decks, shows me that the archetype may be coming back with alle these new additions to it... I like.

- meanee

[Solpugid]

I'm going out on a limb a little here, and posting a deck that has given me a lot of success in testing (but hasn't seen any serious play). It actually stemmed from my work on Tarmotog; I liked the deck, but its cantrip engine (to support FoW) felt subpar without additional free counters (daze).

Anyway, in searching for a way to utilize the intuition-->sauce engine I ended up with, basically, a Rock list. So here it is, in all its unrefined glory.

Creatures: 20
4 Birds of paradise
4 Nimble mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Ravenous baloth
2 Shriekmaw
1 Wonder
1 Genesis
1 Eternal witness
1 Gigapede

Other spells: 17
4 Pernicious deed
4 Intuition
4 Cabal therapy
3 Thoughtseize
1 Darkblast
1 Life from the loam

Lands: 23
3 Bayou
3 Underground sea
3 Tropical island
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted delta
3 Wooded foothills
1 Volrath's stronghold
1 Cephalid coliseum

At first I suspected the deeds killing random mongooses would suck, but that anti-synergy has been surprisingly tolerable, largely due to cabal therapy and genesis. I'm not sure the LftL engine needs to be in there, but it only takes up 2 slots and is tutorable, so I figured why not.

Suggestions? Sideboard ideas?

[Nihil Credo]

That's highly similar to what I've been fiddling around with, Solpugid - I guess I wasn't the only one who was wondering how much FoW was worth it in Tog.

Anyway, aside from some tweaks like fitting in Ruins, EE, and Waste, my build runs Werebears instead of Mongeese. It makes the Goblins matchup even harder than it already is, but the mana production and +1/+1 is golden and the deck reaches Threshold fairly consistently; against control I always go for the Gigapede recursion anyway.

[Solpugid]

Yeah, the only real reason I run mongoose over werebear is for shroud, since so much removal (smother, swords, shriekmaw, etc.) is running around to control goyf. It also has helped having threats with staggered CCs for surviving EE. I'll have to try bear out, though.

Do you think it's worth dropping a thoughtseize for an EE and a swamp for a ruins to have an extra recursion engine? It sounds interesting, but I worry about eventually making the deck too inconsistent with 1-ofs. Again, I'll test it. Thanks for the ideas.

[Majestyk1136]

Having been playing The Rock in legacy since before Grand Prix: Philadelphia I was quite glad to see the deck receive the attention it deserves. Many pros chose to pilot some form of a Junk deck at Worlds, but there's still only one Rock to me. Here's the version that my friend (And Worlds competitor) Conley Woods and I developed.

3 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Forest
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
3 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windswept Heath
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Eternal Witness
4 Loxodon Hierarch
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Crime // Punishment
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize

Sideboard

4 Extirpate
4 Infest
2 Karmic Justice
4 Krosan Grip
1 Thoughtseize

Conley took the core decklist that I've been playing for some time now and upgraded the Walls of Blossoms to Tarmogoyfs to give the deck a little extra offensive punch and did some work on the sideboard to try and compensate for the expected worlds metagame. The Karmic Justices were something that he stumbled upon that were critical in his matchup against White Stax, effectively blanking their Armageddons. Everything else should be pretty self explanatory.

Rather than fooling around making your mana base worse with a fourth color we decided early on to not worry about tutoring packages and make sure that practically every card you drew was fantastic at what it did.

Conley's initial reaction to the deck was to say that it looked like a pile of random cards thrown together. While it may appear that way the deck has a strong curve going from Birds/Thoughtsieze/Therapy/Swords to Goyf/Elder to Troll/Deed/Witness to Hierarch/Crime//Punishment.

My experience has been a little bit different with the deck just because I massaged the original list from the state that it was in around the time of the living wish version into its current configuration. A Rock-Solid Manabase (if you'll pardon the pun) and an awesome threat base backed up by the most efficient cards at what they do all around.

Conley's 4-1 record in the Legacy portion of worlds speaks for itself.

You don't lose to Thresh. You just don't. Anybody who tells you otherwise is ignorant. Period.

We had the matchup at something like 80-20, and that's only because we wanted to be conservative. It gets worse for them after boarding because they have literally nothing on you at that point, in fact they may make their deck worse against you. CounterTop does nothing as they have no numbers that can stop you for the most part. Crime // Punishment is such a savage beating against them that we almost wanted to put more of them in the board.

Thoughtsieze was a gift from Wizards to us who play this deck. It singlehandedly turns the Goblins matchup from "shaky" in game 1 to a rout in almost all cases. Forget after boards. If the Gobbos player expects to bring in enchantment hate to fight your Engineered Plagues... woe betide them.

Combo can be a bear as you have no Force of Will. Of course, it really doesn't matter most of the time because if you're on the play Thoughtsieze will protect you from them for at least a couple of turns until you can strip their hand with Therapy. It should go without saying that Extirpate from the board is a solid platinum bomb.

Non-inclusions include the Donk in the room, Doran. The biggest question in our minds was: Where would he fit in, and why? Would Troll be better off as Doran? The determination we made was pretty solidly "no." The extra power boost he brings to the table can't make up for Shroud when STP is the most commonly played removal in the format. Regenerating through your Deeds and Punishments in the odd cases where that's important is just gravy.

I'm probably going to play around with an Intuition version of this deck early this year to see if I can set up something where the CA you get out of it is overwhelming or something, but I doubt that it will be more impressive than the current setup in terms of consistency.

Questions or comments?

[burkey_boy]

i really like that list.

questions.
recurring nightmare? why? for the heirach? unearth?
4 heirach? too much? i used to run 2-3 4cc creatures in my build
2 punishment/ 3 deed? why not 4 deeds, 1 punish?

[Waikiki]

I got another question,

What's the board plan? Isn't 4 krosan grips a little too much? what mu are they mosty boarded in?

[Majestyk1136]

i really like that list.

questions.
recurring nightmare? why? for the heirach? unearth?
4 heirach? too much? i used to run 2-3 4cc creatures in my build
2 punishment/ 3 deed? why not 4 deeds, 1 punish?

Q1: Witness Chain. Turns Birds/Elders drawn late into Hierarchs, Trolls and Tarmogoyfs without having to frag your draw step like the Stronghold. Unearth is being too cute. The best thing you can do with it is repeatedly Unearth Dead Witnesses until you end the chain with a Troll/Goyf. Just not that impressive in the long run compared to the raw power of Nightmare.

Q2: No. You're never sad to see a Big, Dumb Elephant. Especially when he comes down on turn 3 so often.

Q3: Pithing Needle. Also, Deed is quite Mana Hungry and typically you need to hit one point on the Mana Curve in order to break out of something. Also, Crime is relevant. Punishment X=2 is one less mana than Deed X=2... this distinction is huge, in addition to having a CMC of 4 (impossible for CounterGoyf to hit) and not 3.

[Majestyk1136]

I got another question,

What's the board plan? Isn't 4 krosan grips a little too much? what mu are they mosty boarded in?

Depends on the Matchup, but most of the time the White Stax deck wants 4 Grips. Any deck that seeks to abuse Crucible is a potential target matchup for 4 Grips. Any "Gimmick" deck that relies upon a single enchantment/Artifact is a relevant Matchup for this. You have no idea how much you laugh at Aluren with this card. Split Second is huge. Your opponent's Deed now can't sit on the table because if they pass priority they have a dead Deed. If somebody ever gets the guts to play Affinity you further laugh at their antics what with your 4 Swords, Grips, Deeds, C//P, et al...

Also, outside of Elephants and Trolls a large part of your deck does get hit by CounterTop. You must stop this, not because it's killing you necessarily, but because it makes their other spells relevant again by shutting off your 1's and 2's and even occasionally 3's. You can Engineer the situation where you kill the 'Balance with Grip as we all know however.

As far as the Remainder of the board plan goes... what do you want to know? It seems pretty straightforward, but...

Goblins: -2 C//P, -1 Recurring Nightmare, -1 Thoughtsieze/Therapy +4 Infest. How many Wrath of God effects do you want at 3 mana?

Thresh: Depends on how they board. Everything you do Wrecks them pretty badly anyways so I typically feel pretty safe dumping some hand death in order to bring in Grips as an insurance policy against random Jittes and Counterbalances. You have crushing card advantage over them in every phase.

White Stax: Swords can pretty much come out unless you've seen Exalted Angel. Karmic Justice is a kick in their Junk as now they have a bunch of Armageddons that they thought were going to dominate you, but now just completely blow up their side of the board too. Hand Destruction can be relevant if you're on the play and if you're feeling lucky (maybe they won't get chalice = 1!) you can even bring in Extirpate to perhaps strip their win conditions or Annoying things like Wastelands, Flagstones or Factories.

Dredge: Extirpate Extirpate Extirpate. Yeah, that pretty much explains that. You have other relevant things to do as well including dropping an Elder on the second turn to prevent... Shenanigans. Elephants can kill themselves too at some point and it's not guaranteed that they're going to get there quick enough to stop you from landing a show-stopping Deed or other such nastiness. You're likely to win the match assuming they don't go apeshit too quickly, but you'll probably lose a game to bad luck.

Iggy Pop: Don't play this deck. On second thought, do. Against me. With the Rock. :D And Extirpate.

Belcher: Pray. If your deity loves you they won't get there on turn 1 as you have no Forces. Thoughtsieze tears them up etc... If they go for the Goblins you're in luck because you have a shot at killing the Goblins before they get you. Unlike this, most decks don't have a prayer of doing that b/c they have no relevant board sweepers in the usual sense. Try to Goldfish them as quickly as possible obv.

Burn: Elephant or no? Thoughtsieze can be a huge help as it merely sets up Therapy and saves you a bunch of damage. It also hurts you a bit so there are tradeoffs. You typically Swords your Tarmogoyf and stabilize. Then an elephant shows up. The only matchup where I'd like to have Duress instead.

Survival: LOLZ. Nice Permanents. Like a Thresh deck except slow. And bad. And dependent upon a permanent which in and of itself does nothing to affect board position, other than add G to the mana cost of all of their guys.

Suicide black: This deck is your evil twin. You're the good guys however and should win. Tarmogoyf is not going to last between their swords and smothers, but your sweepers annihilate them. Karmic Justice can be pretty funny here. Please Wasteland me!

Landstill: Swords your Factory. What, you have no hand? Too bad... Standstill is hateful obviously. Take it away at every opportunity. And Fact. Trolls tear these guys up.

Is there anything that I'm missing that's obvious?

[Waikiki]

Thnx for the explanation, 4 grips just looked alittle much for me but I see why you want them ;)

[AngryTroll]

Survival: LOLZ. Nice Permanents. Like a Thresh deck except slow. And bad. And dependent upon a permanent which in and of itself does nothing to affect board position, other than add G to the mana cost of all of their guys.


Actually, in my testing, the Rock is always an excellent match. The Rock packs Deed for massive card advantage, and Survival runs Survival for the same thing. Both decks pack a fair amount of black hand disruption, Eternal Witnesses to recur the main enchantments, and solid beaters. However, I felt like the proactive card advantage from Survival beat the reactive Pernicious Deed. Burning Wish for Haunting Echoes was also a real bomb that the Rock really couldn't match.

Looking at the Threat base of each deck, The Rock is packing 4 Heirarch, 4 Goyf, and 4 Troll. Comparing creatures Troll sized or larger, RGBSA runs 4 Goyf, 3 Shriekmaw, 1 Flametongue Kavu, 1 Ravenous Baloth, 1 Stomphowler, and 1 Genesis.
Pernicious Deed and the Recurring Nightmare are the real bombs, vs Survival and Burning Wish.
For removal and disruption, the Rocks plays Thoughsieze and Cabal Therapy, against RGBSA's Duress/Thoughsieze and Therapies. Swords to Plowshares vs. 3 Shriekmaw, 1 FtK, 1 Big Game Hunter.
Magus of the Moon is also solid if unexpected; the number of basics is similar between the lists is similar, but Survival knows it has Magus waiting.

The only place where RGBSA comes up short above is the straight creature size contest.


In all the matches I have played, the games were only ever really lopsided if Survival stuck a Survival and The Rock did not stick a Deed; otherwise, the games are pretty interesting and long. I really enjoy playing against the Rock in tournaments with RGBSA, because I know the game will go long, will be complex, but I always feel that I cannot lose the match unless I am blown away during the mulligan process.

I will hedge that I have not played against this exact list, and that running 4 Goyf, 4 Troll, and 4 Heirarch makes an aggressive threat base, but I feel that the matchup is probably very even. With equally skilled players, I would be willing to bet on RGBSA being the match winner most of the time.


Edit: I came back and re-read the list a few times, to make sure I read it correctly. Between Deed, Crime/Punishment, and Swords, is there no need for Shriekmaw? None at all? Really? Are you sure?

[Majestyk1136]

If there is no Goblins in your Meta then there's no need for Infest. Feel free to play Shriekmaw and wreak havoc with Witnesses and Nightmare.

I agree that the Long Term CA of Survival will eventually dig the matchup out or at the very minimum make the game long and drawn out. That said, it has to stick and it has to remain active.

The versions I'm more used to seeing are the ATS variety lists or even Counterbalance lists. Crime // Punishment really shines against those decks and Deed is obviously a complete wrecking ball.

The Rock's mana base is also signifigantly more stable in my opinion thanks to the Elders. The ability to play through Blood Moon effects without difficulty sets the deck apart from other, more ponderous control decks.

[revenge_inc]

Non-inclusions include the Donk in the room, Doran. The biggest question in our minds was: Where would he fit in, and why? Would Troll be better off as Doran? The determination we made was pretty solidly "no." The extra power boost he brings to the table can't make up for Shroud when STP is the most commonly played removal in the format. Regenerating through your Deeds and Punishments in the odd cases where that's important is just gravy.



Although you my have a point, the recent explosion of Doran Rock in extended has shown us the power of this card. Even considering the cheaper and more effective removal available in Legacy, I believe he is still worth reconsidering.

[VuRkka]

For a while I tried to add Doran to The Rock, but it just wasn't worth it. The only slot I found for it was in a place of Hierarchs. Sure Doran hits harder and gives more power to Goyfs and Birds but there's the other side of the coin; I rather take 4 than 0 life from StP, most of the time Doran dies to your own Deed and its way easier to get rid off with EE.

I recently finished sixth in a 27 player tournament with The Rock. I'm currently playing a bit more controllish list than these seen on this thread. (list on demand, as this thread is already full of them)
I won Iggy, Deadguy and MUC 2-0 and had to split with Landstill(UW) due to timelimit. However, I faced a deck I really had problems with; Dragon Stompy. Its speed with Moon-effects was something I really wasn't able to deal with. I won the second game as I was able to Seize away Chalice.
I've been trying to find a solution for this, but all I can think of is to win the dice roll, but its something I wouldn't like to rely on. :P
Any thoughts?

[Nihil Credo]

One of my experiments for the CaNGD was a base-black midrange-ish deck featuring Korlash, Heir to Blackblade. Fitting it with acceleration and better removal eventually led it to become essentially a pretty solid Rock variant. Since I'd like to submit something a bit more original than that, I thought I might as well post the list here.

// Lands
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [PR] Bayou
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 [UNH] Forest
8 [UNH] Swamp (one could probably be an off-colour dual for EE@3, and maybe some SB options like Gaddock Teeg)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 [PRE] Korlash, Heir to Blackblade
3 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
4 [LRW] Shriekmaw
2 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [PR] Cabal Therapy
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [PR] Duress
SB: 3 [PLC] Darkheart Sliver
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip


See if you like the approach - this isn't yet a completely finished list. The idea is that ten removal spells plus Thoughtseize should be enough when you run 13 board-dominating threats. Garruk is absurd, by the way.

[Jak]

Okay I have been looking for a new deck to build and am thinking about a Rockish type deck like the extended Doran ones. Here is a list.

4 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 New Land (Murmuring Bosk, I think)
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Urborg
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Brids of Paradise

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Spectral Lynx
2 Exalted Angel
3 Tombstalker

4 Dark Confidant
3 Sensei's Diving Top

4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
3 Smother

SB
4 Orim's Chant
3 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void
4 EE

It is 3 cards too much, but this looks really good. Cards that I want to test are Hymn, Some Equipment, and Doran. I don;t have Doran in here because I liek Tombstalker a lot more. Easier to cast and has flying. Still not sure. Angels are for the needed life gain. Thoughs on the build.

[Illissius]

I think the Legacy version of the Extended Doran decks is GBW Survival. Survival simply ends up being a better catch-all and bomb than Vindicate and Command. If you want to build a Rock deck in Legacy, you build around 4 Deeds (which these Extended decks don't run), because that's the only card which conflicts with and is comparable in power to Survival for these kinds of decks.

[Mental]

I've been experimenting with a red version of The Rock. It's not incredibly new or anything, but it feels strong to me. We'll see if red can ever beat out StP, but I'm sure that in the right meta, it can.

RedRock2k8
//Lands
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire

4 Bayou
3 Taiga

2 Forest
1 Swamp

1 Volrath's Stronghold

//Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wall of Roots

4 Tarmogoyf

2 Eternal Witness
2 Shriekmaw

//Spells
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy

4 Terminate
2 Putrefy

4 Pernicious Deed

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Blood Moon

//Sideboard
4 Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip
1 Cabal Therapy
4 Extirpate
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Blood Moon

Anyways, some explanations:
The reason I'm playing red is because I think that it has a better game against Goblins and Threshold than GBw does. That's just me though. The power of Blood Moon is undeniable, and Pyroclasm lets your goblin MU go from decent to incredible after boarding. However, I've only been working on this deck about a week, so I'm sure that there are a lot of things I'm missing.

I'd also like to address some problems with the list:
> Lack of a decent finisher: I tested Tombstalker and didn't love it. Ravenous Baloth seems bad with all the Goyfs running around. I haven't tested Garruk, but I remember how much I didn't like him in Landstill. Goyfs have been working fine for the most part.
> Weakness against big beats: Seriously, I often scoop to a tombstalker. Because I don't have access to StP, I have to use Smother, which can't hit things like Stalker, Magus of the Tabernacle, and Arc-Slogger. Hell, I lost a game to 9Land Stompy because of that. Since this problem arose I've added Putrefies, as they can hit things with CC > 3 and artifacts. (This has been solved by adding Terminate, disregard)

Another note: Wall of Roots is probably getting a big, "WTF". I only play it because in my meta, there's a very good UGr Thresh deck running around with tons of early mana disruption. Wall of Roots is basically auto lose to Tempo Thresh if it resolves (ok, that's an exaggeration, but it's very good). In the normal Meta, I'd run STE instead.

[konsultant]

This is a build that I have been working on for alittle while now.

Land
3x Bayou
3x Scrubland
1x Savanah
1x Murmuring Bosk
3x Polluted Delta
4x Windswept Heath
2x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Forest

Creature
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Eternal Witness
3x Doran the Siege Tower
3x Tombstalker
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Shreikmaw

Spells
4x Swords to Plowshare's
4x Vindicate
2x Krosan Grip
3x Harmonize
4x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy

Side Board
3x Engineered Plague
3x Extirpate
3x Null Rod
2x Duress
2x Lilliana Vess
2x Crime/Punishment

Im running Harmonize because I hate playing a game in top deck mode and 3 Harmonize with 3 Witness seems to keep alot of card advantage on my side of the table. The Krosan Grips are a meta game call, there are a number of Counterbalance's and Shackle's in my area, not to mention the increase in popularity in Bloodmoon. I find Null Rod to be an amazing card in the Board, while stopping the Top's, Shackles, Engineered Explosive's, Aether Vials, Jitte's and a number of more random cards it also messes with the mana in TES and Belcher.

[DragoFireheart]

After getting tired of using Threshold decks and blue in general, I decided to make my own Rock deck after seeing the success it was having recently.

Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Chameleon Colossus
4 Doran, the Siege Tower
2 Eternal Witness
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Spiritmonger
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Treefolk Harbinger


Spells
2 Duress
4 Smother
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize


Enchantments
2 Pernicious Deed


Lands
4 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills


Sideboard (15 cards)
1 Duress
3 Extirpate
4 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Currently, I need to get (but not necessarily add to the deck):

+2 Eternal Witness
+2 Pernicious Deed
+1-2 Chameleon Colossus
+1 Extirpate
+1 Duress

I think should really try out the Chameleon Colossus. They can be tutored with Harbinger, have pro-black and can pump themselves to easily outsize Goyfs. They do cost double green but the mana base + birds should make them easy enough to cast.

Any suggestions are more than welcome.

[JohnnyCage]

Iggy Pop: Don't play this deck. On second thought, do. Against me. With the Rock. :D And Extirpate.



Is there anything that I'm missing that's obvious?

Ya your missing the fact that iggy pop is perhaps the most resilient deck in legacy and has options suck as....idk, orim's chant. Also when do you do your little extirpate trick, when you don't have priority and they have a leyline? The biggest weakness of any player is to underestimate his opponent, and it appears that you talk more then you think.

[Mental]

Ya your missing the fact that iggy pop is perhaps the most resilient deck in legacy and has options suck as....idk, orim's chant. Also when do you do your little extirpate trick, when you don't have priority and they have a leyline? The biggest weakness of any player is to underestimate his opponent, and it appears that you talk more then you think.

That's not Iggy Pop, that's TES.

[Team-Hero]

Recurring Nightmare is a house for this deck. 1 copy is all you need to improve your late-game advantage over other decks. Against aggro decks, you can attack with a Hierarch and cast Recurring Nightmare twice; with a potential in gaining you a total of 8 life and an untapped Hierarch. I'm speaking late game here, not a usual play.

[idraleo]

why almost everybody try to run aggro versions of the deck? are you happy to get almost your creep cutted out when you activate Pernicious?

I'm working on a more control-based decklist, triyng to avoid the costant metagame presence of decks like Dragon Stompy and U-based that try to abuse of Back to Basic. I found that my version have an excellent MU from Dragon and faerie Stompy, an excellent mu against ******** and aggro control . I noticed that the deck lose the first match by his classic worst MU: dredge, burn and the fast comboish decks, such as Belcher and TES, and build a sideboard to handle on that matchups.
The 1st game against Goblin, Landstills and Loam-based decks are decent and depends a lot on cointoss and hand quality; these are mu that is impossible to estabilish on how much they are worst preside, cause sometimes happens that you'll get a fast victory, sometimes you are simply overwhelmed. They are the famous "50\50" matchups.

When i builded this decklist, i have focused my attention on the way to give the deck manipulation and a costant card advantage system, and i was sure that running Confidant and Sensei's i wouldn' have any 1 copy of tech cards, focusing my build on a solid maindeck redundance; the only 1X card is Hierarch, that could be saw as the 3rd ravenous Baloth. A second point where i would focus my attention, is how to handle a Goyf metagame and at the same time run a powerful finisher that avoids completely Counterbalance; thinking on that way, i put my attention on Spiritmonger: 'Monger is simply awsome, it chumpblocks every Tarmogoyf and avoid Mystic Enforcer problack ability. He also cut be sacrificed on Ravenous Baloth, and he is perfect on this deck cause running Confidants you know that our enemy StP won't be putted ever on him: they have to handle Confidant first.

I took my decklist on a 38 eight people tournament placing 6th, losing on top8s by WWgu weenye but i was simply unluck (i've never saw a Pernicious Deed in any of the 3 games). After that tournament i start run 3 Hideous Laughter on sb against goblin; they are simply amazing, doing an Infest work at istant speed, and they are strong as a Tivadars Crusade comparing effects. Play an Hideous Laughter after that our opponents cast they goblins before attack mean did at least a 3\4x1 and took an amazing advantage on our opponent; and remember that casting a Sakura on turn 2 means that you'll be able to play Laughter from turn 3.

Here's the decklist:

// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [A] Bayou
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [A] Savannah
5 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest
4 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
2 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
2 [10E] Treetop Village

// Creatures
4 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [AP] Spiritmonger
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
2 [ON] Ravenous Baloth
1 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch

// Spells
4 [AP] Vindicate
2 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [RAV] Putrefy
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [IA] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
SB: 3 [OD] Aegis of Honor
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [OD] Haunting Echoes
SB: 3 [CHK] Hideous Laughter

[dahcmai]

This is what I have been playing lately and it seems very close to what has been talked about in this thread so I'll list it here. My choices are different here and there, but the premise seems the same.


3 Mumuring Bosk
4 Bayou
2 Savannah
4 Scrubland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Dark Ritual
4 Vindicate
4 Swords
3 Loxodon Heirarch
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn
4 Tombstalker
2 Eternal Dragon
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Living Wish
4 Pernicious Deed

SB:
3 Engineered Plague
1 Exalted Angel
1 Shreikmaw
1 Viridian Zealot
3 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Dueling Grounds


My main differences are

Mumuring Bosk - I just like being able to not get color screwed. It's been invaluable since I play quite a few multi-colored cards. I use 3 because of the CIPT thing. I usually take a chance to fetch them at the end of opponents turn so that drawback is negated.

Tombstalker - He's been golden Usually a third turn play unless i feel like feeding the goyfs if they already hit the table. The guy is flat scary how fast he comes out. Definitely a 4 of.

Thoughtseize - I just enjoy taking Lackies or goyfs from thresh so I included it over Duress. The Loxodon's outweigh the life loss anyway. I have swords, but I do like the extra kill if it needs to be.

More Loxodons - I personally enjoyed the extra life + body since my meta is filled with burn. We have a lot of newer players who can't afford duals yet so we end up with a lot of straight up burn. The life gain now is a meta call on my part. I agree with the Baloth otherwise.

Hymns - This one is mainly because of my lack of sac targets for Therapy and not having a problem with double black turn 2.

Eternal Dragon - Mana Fix and a late game beater if needed. Typically he ends up being a subtle draw in the form of returning/cycling sometimes if the game is not already over.

Goyf - well, it's goyf. He's fast and beats are what we are about.


Odd board choices

Exalted Angel - Has been a saving grace occationally. She's amazingly quick and efficient. Wish target and comes in main for when I want some extra speed.

Dueling grounds - It's really quite amazing against goblins. We have a few players of gobbos so I needed something to stop the rush and this fills that role stupidly well. They don't seem to want to dive into a Loxodon with one guy anymore and tend not to block much either. Granted they have board hate for it, but it's usually a surprise and they weren't planning on boarding for it. Plus, it's a little quicker than most anti-goblins type cards.

Engineered plague - Good for goblins and my main reason for using it in addition to Dueling grounds is Meathooks. We have a good Meathooks player and Crystaline making my swords stink was the main reason. It's a close game 1 and no contest game 2.


Typically, I end up playing the same decks every week. So I really can only comment on those. Our local Thresh player (the only really good one) is in the hospital so I can't comment on that deck other than playing against people I doubt are making optimal plays. It's a beating against them so I can't picture them playing thresh right. It should be more of a challenge than that. I know people have mentioned it's not a challenge, but man, I just can't picture that horridly disruptive deck not doing more.

Other matchups I have played to death.

Meathooks is a cakewalk especially after boarding.
Goblins are a cakewalk
Burn is laughable.
Survival decks cry and then cry some more after the board.
Thresh U/G/W so far is easy, but see above comment.
Dredge/Ichorid is plain tricky game 1 and no contest game 2. Having to play a CoV to get rid of leyline gives me the turn I need it seems. Loxodon keeps Bridges in check.
TES - tricky, but it comes down to who got the better draw. I don't get to play against this one much so I can't comment. I assume combo is the worst match. I don't even want to see a belcher deck pop up.
Landstill isn't too bad. Stronghold shines all of a sudden and makes me want to add more.
Any type of Stax is auto toast. Trinisphere and chalice just don't seem to do much of anything so I get to walk on through to the other side.
Thank God there's no Dragon stompy player around here. I really do need to fix the problem of blood moon. So far everytime I ran into a Blood moon (and it's been a few times) I ended up taking it out with a discard spell or having a huge threat like goyf or Tombstalker already out and pushing my way through anyway. Tombstalker has been the saving grace everytime so one resolved one against me.



Overall, if you don't have much combo, this seems to be the deck to play as I won everytime I pulled it out.

[Barook]

With all that non-basic hate around, I'm not really excited about running a 3-colored manabase without a decent amount of cantrips.

Due to that, I'll give this thing a try:

6 [RAV] Forest (1)
3 [UNH] Swamp
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [A] Bayou
2 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 [9E] Llanowar Elves
4 [8E] Birds of Paradise
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
4 [10E] Troll Ascetic
4 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [RAV] Putrefy

The manabase probably still needs tweaking (I'm also trying to squeeze in a Volrath's Stronghold for recursion sillyness).

I'm quite pleased with the discard package. 8 mana dudes + Therapy + Thoughtseize + Witness is just such a beating. I also like it how Shriekmaw is hardcastable with relative ease due the number of accelerants.

I just don't know what to put into the Sb. Deed? Krosan Grip? Extirpate/LotV? What else?

[Jak]

No Swords :/

I was doing some testing on MWS and thought I should try this deck. I never thought it was as strong as I thought, but I managed a really strong record of 1-1 vs Ichorid before he had to leave, 2-0 against UR Landstill, and 2-0 against a deck I forgot before my computer froze and left midgame against another opponent. Here was the list.

// Lands
4 [B] Bayou
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [R] Savannah
2 [U] Scrubland
1 [CHK] Plains (4)
3 [RAV] Forest (3)
2 [MM] Swamp (2)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [4E] Birds of Paradise
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
3 [LRW] Doran, the Siege Tower
3 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 [PLC] Harmonize
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [US] Duress

Harmonize is insane. Against Landstill, I was able to play Harmonize 4 times and keep his hand small and a Tombstalker or Goyf was able to finish it. Against Ichorid I just went all out aggro and beat him game 2 with a 6/7 Goyf, Doran and a Bird. Game 1 he had won turn 2 :/. The list was really consistent and I never really got in a bad position.

[Seraph2k]

Hi! With the following built I went 2nd (5-1) of 37 players on sunday at a local tournament here in germany(Haßloch).

2 Doran, the Siege Tower
3 Eternal Witness
2 Loxodon Hierarch
3 Ohran Viper
1 Shriekmaw
1 Spiritmonger
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
4 Veteran Explorer

3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives

3 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Forest
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills

There are 2 different choices from a normal built:
veteran explorer > birds
Ohran Viper added
Both cards were amazing!

Round 1 - vs bye 1-0

Round 2 - vs Angel Stax (silverdragon) won 2-1 2-0

Round 3 - vs burn Combo won 2-0 3-0

Round 4 - vs 2 Land Belcher won 2-1

Round 5 - vs AggroLoam 0-2 lost 4-1

Round 6 - vs ******** UGR 2-1 won 5-1

The explorer is sooooo amazing. First Turn explorer. Second Turn Therapy + Landdrop -> 3 Mana for Doran, Goyf, more Discard....

The Viper is anotehr solide choice. Normally the Op will kill her very fast. So Tarmo and Doran will have not that much problems. Try this card you will love it!

[Raider Bob]

No Swords :/

I was doing some testing on MWS and thought I should try this deck. I never thought it was as strong as I thought, but I managed a really strong record of 1-1 vs Ichorid before he had to leave, 2-0 against UR Landstill, and 2-0 against a deck I forgot before my computer froze and left midgame against another opponent. Here was the list.

// Lands
4 [B] Bayou
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [R] Savannah
2 [U] Scrubland
1 [CHK] Plains (4)
3 [RAV] Forest (3)
2 [MM] Swamp (2)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [4E] Birds of Paradise
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
3 [LRW] Doran, the Siege Tower
3 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 [PLC] Harmonize
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [US] Duress

Harmonize is insane. Against Landstill, I was able to play Harmonize 4 times and keep his hand small and a Tombstalker or Goyf was able to finish it. Against Ichorid I just went all out aggro and beat him game 2 with a 6/7 Goyf, Doran and a Bird. Game 1 he had won turn 2 :/. The list was really consistent and I never really got in a bad position.

This is Tombstone not the Rock put it in the right thread.

[Jak]

This is Tombstone not the Rock put it in the right thread.

Uhh no. It is the Rock. I did get the idea to try out Harmonize from Tombstine, but just because I run that one card does not make this your deck.

The most recent Tombstone list I have seen from your thread.

Black
4x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Snuff Out
3x Tombstalker

Green
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Eternal Witness
3x Harmonize

White
4x Swords to Plowshares

Blue
4x Brainstorm

Gold
3x Doran
2x Crime/Punishment

Land
5x Basics
7x Fetch Lands
9x Dual Lands

You don't run Deed which is a big part of what The Rock is. The lists have many differences. Tombstone is essentially The Rock, but I really don't care about names.

[Media314r8]

4 Veteran Explorer

3 Cabal Therapy

There are 2 different choices from a normal built:
veteran explorer > birds

The explorer is sooooo amazing. First Turn explorer. Second Turn Therapy + Landdrop -> 3 Mana for Doran, Goyf, more Discard....


This man speaks the truth. Explorer + therapy = double therapy + hymn turn two, ect. Birds + therapy... is better than birds + deed i suppose. Explorer is possibly the best (and most often one-sided) mana accel available when running therapy and deed.

My list: DORA ROCKS

// Lands
2 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
3 [UNH] Forest
3 [UNH] Swamp
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Bayou
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)

// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [LRW] Shriekmaw
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [JU] Living Wish
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [LRW] Profane Command
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Eternal Witness
SB: 1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [DIS] Indrik Stomphowler
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [FUT] Tombstalker
SB: 1 [MOR] Chameleon Colossus

My Doras:
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f28/Media314r8/IMG_0970.jpg

[b4r0n]

// Lands
4 [B] Bayou
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [R] Savannah
2 [U] Scrubland
1 [CHK] Plains (4)
3 [RAV] Forest (3)
2 [MM] Swamp (2)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [4E] Birds of Paradise
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
3 [LRW] Doran, the Siege Tower
3 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 [PLC] Harmonize
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [US] Duress

Harmonize is insane. Against Landstill, I was able to play Harmonize 4 times and keep his hand small and a Tombstalker or Goyf was able to finish it. Against Ichorid I just went all out aggro and beat him game 2 with a 6/7 Goyf, Doran and a Bird. Game 1 he had won turn 2 :/. The list was really consistent and I never really got in a bad position.

I'm really liking this list. Harmonize is truly amazing, especially in conjunction with Witness, but also with discard. Several times I found myself with a full grip while they had nothing in hand... so good! I was also impressed by Tombstalker, as it comes down surprisingly early and doesn't interfere with Goyf/Witness as much as I would have thought.

Is there any reason for not running a singleton Stronghold?

[Jak]

I'm really liking this list. Harmonize is truly amazing, especially in conjunction with Witness, but also with discard. Several times I found myself with a full grip while they had nothing in hand... so good! I was also impressed by Tombstalker, as it comes down surprisingly early and doesn't interfere with Goyf/Witness as much as I would have thought.

Is there any reason for not running a singleton Stronghold?

Stronghold could/should be in the list. I would probably cut a Forest.

Also, I am digging Explorer. Turn 2- Play Therapy, sac Explorer to play again, get 2 lands, drop Goyf. It does have better synergy with Deed and Therapy, stops lackey, and I guess it would be the same versus combo as Bird. One beats and one is able to accel. I'll have to try it out.

[porcupinetreeman]

Also, I am digging Explorer. Turn 2- Play Therapy, sac Explorer to play again, get 2 lands, drop Goyf. It does have better synergy with Deed and Therapy, stops lackey, and I guess it would be the same versus combo as Bird. One beats and one is able to accel. I'll have to try it out.

Is explorer really that good? It seems bad against so many decks

Off hand it is bad against

Stax
Some Control
Some Combo (Aluren, Iggy Pop, Breakfast)
Burn
Survival
LFTL

It would be decent against

Most Aggro Control (land destruction especially)
Aggro

Imho, I think your helping the other player out too much. Only a few decks run all nonbasics.

[Seraph2k]

The explorer is so amazing! Test him! And if you are relly playing against stax, ok board it! He will play chalice 1, so simply board the explorers, but against each other deck is is amazing.
And please test the Ohran Viper! Anyone else who tested it?

[Agent J]

Have you ever sacrificed an Explorer to Smokestack? Believe me it's really really cool. ;) Moreover the Stax player normaly won't profit that much from the extra lands as you will (unless it is turn 2) since he can't play that differently if he has 6 instead of 4 mana.
It behaves quite similar vs. decks like Burn, lots of aggro and some aggro-control. Maybe they can fetch 2 basics but often they won't be able to make good use out of them or at least you will probably be able to abuse the acceleration more than your opponent.

[Osse]

No clue about Explorer, on paper it looks like it's not worth the risk (ex: Sensation Gorger in Goblins). I'd almost always rather birds.

I tried out the Harmonizes and I have to say that everytime I played one I was hoping it was Survival. Also, 4 Vindicate, 3 Deed, 4 Swords is definitely too much. Just saying.

[Slate]

Here's my list, I opted for the original b/g build. Has anyone tested with garruk, i'm unsure if i like him in this style of a deck. 9/10 when i drop him it just feels like i'm winning more. The 1/10 is against control decks like landstill where they have trouble dealing with him if he hits the board. Also i need suggestions for a solid sb for an open meta. Comments / Concerns welcome!

// Lands
3 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
5 [UNH] Swamp
5 [UNH] Forest
4 [R] Bayou
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 [B] Birds of Paradise
3 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [ON] Ravenous Baloth
4 [SH] Wall of Blossoms

// Spells
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [FD] Night's Whisper
4 [PLC] Extirpate

[idraleo]

Why Extirpate maindeck? Without running the white splash you don't have access to Vindicate, so i think that for you is better run at least 2 Crime\Punishment to improve your removal spells over the four Pernicious. Another point is if Wall of Blossoms is better than Sakura-tribe Elder in your decklist: Wall is a great chumpblocker and cycle itself, but Sakura speeds your 4th turn play onto turn 3, stabilize your manabase aginst stax and stompy decks and improve your delve cards in graveyard.

[Slate]

Why Extirpate maindeck? Without running the white splash you don't have access to Vindicate, so i think that for you is better run at least 2 Crime\Punishment to improve your removal spells over the four Pernicious. Another point is if Wall of Blossoms is better than Sakura-tribe Elder in your decklist: Wall is a great chumpblocker and cycle itself, but Sakura speeds your 4th turn play onto turn 3, stabilize your manabase aginst stax and stompy decks and improve your delve cards in graveyard.

I like extirpate maindeck mainly for the control matchup. But it's such a good card that it is never useless.

I dont really need vindicate so much that i want to pose the risk of wasteland / btb / bloodmoon. As vindicate is a good card, but i dont really the spot removal as much as you think. At least so far i havn't said to myself, wow i wish i had a vindicate xxxxxxx is pissing me off.

I would like to run 1-2 crime / punishments but i'm unsure of what spot to cut, as i'm already running 61 cards.

As far as sakura goes, i like the wall better, turn 3 is great for whatever 4 drop, but i like the cantrip + blocker, it's proved invaluable vs goblins / threshold / random aggro. Plus later in the game when i have 8+ mana sources i like to volraths it into play to continuously chump block while still maintaining cards.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Here's my list, I opted for the original b/g build. Has anyone tested with garruk, i'm unsure if i like him in this style of a deck. 9/10 when i drop him it just feels like i'm winning more. The 1/10 is against control decks like landstill where they have trouble dealing with him if he hits the board. Also i need suggestions for a solid sb for an open meta. Comments / Concerns welcome!

// Lands
3 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
5 [UNH] Swamp
5 [UNH] Forest
4 [R] Bayou
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 [B] Birds of Paradise
3 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [ON] Ravenous Baloth
4 [SH] Wall of Blossoms

// Spells
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [FD] Night's Whisper
4 [PLC] Extirpate

I really like this deck, but is Night's Whisper really better than Harmonize in a deck like this. I think the only thing I would change is the Birds seem a LOT better suited as Veteran Explorer and I would play 1-2 Grave-Shell Scarab or 1-2 Gigapede, and maybe 1-2 Eternal Witness.

[Slate]

I really like this deck, but is Night's Whisper really better than Harmonize in a deck like this. I think the only thing I would change is the Birds seem a LOT better suited as Veteran Explorer and I would play 1-2 Grave-Shell Scarab or 1-2 Gigapede, and maybe 1-2 Eternal Witness.

I took yours and everyone else's advice on the explorers and cut the birds for them.

I like Night's Whisper over harmonize simply for the casting cost. It's more of a maintin momentum as opposed to committing 4 mana sources on turn 3-7 and just draw go. With Whisper I can just squeeze it in and pick up the cards, the life loss is negligable with baloths. Usually i'm sacraficing them to something anyways.

My changes so far are -

-4 Extirpate
-4 Birds

+4 Cabal Therapy
+4 Explorers


The explorer / therapy combo works amazingly often. I had a game last night where explorer alone did over 10 points of damage only because he either opted to take the damage or avoided killing it with ee. Kinda funny, i guess he didnt want me getting land.

[Omega]

How good are the extirpate md?

I was thinking Thoughtseize + Cabal Therapy to make it like Extended, keep in the birds for additional creatures

The loss of Dark Confidant seems very hurtful for the deck. Are Night's Whisper doing the job?

Why no Eternal Witness? With Volrath's Stronghold, Shriekmaw should be a good removal.

Robert

[Slate]

The extirpates helped dominate certain matchups pre board, which was nice, but as i played i found it not so necessary vs a lot of matchups so i put them back in the board.

Birds were just dead weight most of the time. If you didnt get one down turn one you'll regret drawing them.

Loss of confidant isnt bad, i just dont feel like topping a tombstalker and 1/2'ing my life. The whispers are good to maintain the momentum.

I don't run witnesses because, well, i like volraths better. If i did run witness the only thing that i would recurr other then creatures would probably be deeds.

Shriekmaw is good, he's been in and out, i'm unsure how i feel about him. I havn't played against many dedicated aggro matchups, so usually the deeds are more than enough alongside the quality of my beats.

[slyfer]

Please somebody help me in building a rock BGW that completely WRECKS 4c landstill.... I'm tired of loosing to a random jace or crime my goyf....
Rock doesn't have maindeck graveyard hate and at the end I'm outdraw even if i play 4 night whisper they are not enough to compete with other engines (being standstill+brainstorm or ponder/brainstorm+predict, or cantrips).
Witness + whisper is simply losing.
Darkconfidant is semi-suicide....
:cry:

Please help, I wanna stomp over decks like those list that scops to a resolved price of progress of example.... like cabal therapy + pop = they go home with their junky pile.... :mad:

I just played vs a random noob on mws with 3 jace like 1 island, like 1 crime, 4 mishra 3 monastry (looool man you really know what means colour build...counterspeel UU jace UU, in a shitloads of manabase 4 color with stp also of course, that scoop to Pop or a Moon), like1 life from the loam... I extirpated counterspell, force, and still I don't draw the eternal witness after 2 (TWO) night's whisper resolved....turn 2 i cabal therapty 3 (THREE) stanstill in his hand, and eventually he won... that's incredible, I feel so frustrated...

[MattH]

Try using Destructive Flow; see the past Extended season for decklists to get you started.

Also, Night's Whisper is trash; try to avoid playing that.

[Slate]

Why would you say Whisper is trash? It's 2 cards for 2 mana and 2 life.

[Berzerked]

Eh, Brainstorm digs one deeper for just U, and doesn't cost life. Not to mention it's an instant. I'd take Brainstorm over Whisper any day (unless of course you won't consider splashing blue).
Also, Gifts setting up a Loam + cycle land engine, possibly w/ Volrath's Stronghold and/or Wasteland, seems pretty strong against Landstill.

[MattH]

I know what it does, but what it does isn't enough to justify the slot. Hence, trash.

[idraleo]

Gift engine is pure trash too because it stole tons of slots to give you a 4cc semitutor and at least 1 or 2 turn to get some jedi mind trick on it. What i' ve noticed playing around this deck for almost 1 month is that the better way of build is to avoid decklists with tons of 1x solution and focus on solid buildings with a decent card advantage sistem as Confidant or Whispers or Harmonize if you want to play BoP+Sakura. If you want to play a deck with a good and fast tutor and some grave interaction start playing Survivalbased.deck and forget about rock.

Buildings with Desruptive Flow is also a new possible concept but i think that if played it had to be a metacall...

[Slate]

Hard to compare any sort of draw card to brainstorm, which is the best at what it does....

But i like whispers because it's cheap, life is negligable, and it's just a good digger. I want some sort of cantrip / filter for it's spot.

Do you have any other suggestions for this slot without having to splash an entire other color?

[from Cairo]

Do you have any other suggestions for this slot without having to splash an entire other color?

Straight card draw: Harmonize / Skeletal Scrying
Guys that cantrip: Wall of Blossoms / Carven Caryatid / Phyrexian Rager
Guys that draw cards/land: Yavimaya Elder / Krosan Tusker
Recursion/cycle-able: Unearth

Browsing Gatherer quickly and assuming GB those were the cards that seemed like other possibilities for a filter/cantrip slot. I'm not claiming any of them are better than Night's Whisper, but they are others to consider I guess.

Personally I think Blue is probably worth considering, for either Brainstorm or Gifts Ungiven or both.

[Slate]

Straight card draw: Harmonize / Skeletal Scrying
Guys that cantrip: Wall of Blossoms / Carven Caryatid / Phyrexian Rager
Guys that draw cards/land: Yavimaya Elder / Krosan Tusker
Recursion/cycle-able: Unearth

Browsing Gatherer quickly and assuming GB those were the cards that seemed like other possibilities for a filter/cantrip slot. I'm not claiming any of them are better than Night's Whisper, but they are others to consider I guess.

Personally I think Blue is probably worth considering, for either Brainstorm or Gifts Ungiven or both.

I used wall of blossoms for a while, they were dead cards so often that they got cut. Only time i was truly satisfied with it was when i could afford to chump block and then volraths it into play everyturn for a permanent chump.

Harmonize is 4 cc and it hurt the curve. I think i played with these for 4-5 games then got cut.

Scrying is good, and i considered it then played with it for a while, but it sort of has countersynergy with volraths and tombstalker so i took it out.

Tusker and Yavimaya are bleh compared to veteran explorer.

The reason i use whisper is because it's cheap, albeit not so efficient, dig. I dont need filter, I dont need search. Just want to dig and have more options. The deck doesnt run out of threats to drop.

I wouldn't go blue just for filter / dig. Not worth the mana base just for gifts ungiven.

Sorry, I dont listen to people who's comments are only, "hey dont use that, it's trash" Give up some suggestions or reasons.

[idraleo]

i've played Confidant + Sensei for ton's of games and it never let me unsatisfied. Sensei's is a good way by itself to manipulate the deck even if you don't have Confidant and is also good if you play a good number of fetches and\or Sakura-tribe Eleder...

[MattH]

Sorry, I dont listen to people who's comments are only, "hey dont use that, it's trash" Give up some suggestions or reasons.
I did - the card doesn't do enough. If you don't understand what that means, ask and I or someone else will explain*. If you don't want to listen, that's your problem, not mine - enjoy your losing streak.

*It means that Night's Whisper is only drawing you into the other spells in your deck, which are apparantly not beating Landstill. If Extirpates and Witnesses and Deeds and Goyfs aren't beating Landstill, drawing into more of them isn't going to win either. Use Destructive Flow and a basic-heavy, retooled manabase instead, which is something that attacks them from an angle against which they're perhaps not used to defending.

You don't have anything which can properly remove a Planeswalker, and the cards that do so are pretty narrow and weak (apart from Vindicate and Pithing Needle, the latter of which is not much of a solution against a deck running multiple Deeds and EEs), so you need to neutralize that in some other, indirect fashion.

Night's Whisper doesn't do this, and isn't particularly good in any matchup. Anywhere where NW is good, Harmonize is better, and Harmonize isn't even that great.

[Slate]

I did - the card doesn't do enough. If you don't understand what that means, ask and I or someone else will explain*. If you don't want to listen, that's your problem, not mine - enjoy your losing streak.

*It means that Night's Whisper is only drawing you into the other spells in your deck, which are apparantly not beating Landstill. If Extirpates and Witnesses and Deeds and Goyfs aren't beating Landstill, drawing into more of them isn't going to win either. Use Destructive Flow and a basic-heavy, retooled manabase instead, which is something that attacks them from an angle against which they're perhaps not used to defending.

You don't have anything which can properly remove a Planeswalker, and the cards that do so are pretty narrow and weak (apart from Vindicate and Pithing Needle, the latter of which is not much of a solution against a deck running multiple Deeds and EEs), so you need to neutralize that in some other, indirect fashion.

Night's Whisper doesn't do this, and isn't particularly good in any matchup. Anywhere where NW is good, Harmonize is better, and Harmonize isn't even that great.

"Also, Night's Whisper is trash; try to avoid playing that." Was your comment. Very insightful.

How does landstill matchup or Planeswalker fit into the inclusion or uninclusion of Night's Whisper? What a completley random tangent to run off to.

Planeswalkers dont need to be shut down to be dealt with. What's wrong with swinging into them to clean them off the board? You're assuming a completely one sided game from landstill's perspective. In my testing the matchup has been pretty successful for Rock. I can usually just play through a standstill and not worry too much. Volraths runs miles here. Typically it's not easy to EE or Deed for 8 pre turn 5.

Comments are noted, but i dont think they apply for what i'm trying to do with the deck. Most of your suggestions are 3-4 colors and i'm trying to stick to strictly 2 colors. I'll continue using Night's Whispers, and I'll "enjoy my losing streak" idiot....

[slyfer]

I've died so many times with confidant (just reveal a couple of cc3 like deed or vindicate or witness and it's almost gg) that I'm really scared of this engine in this deck...
If you reveal a baloth (or loxodon) you cannot gain life.
If you play *also* thoughtseize it's even more suicide.
I think that only fast deck can go suicide, this deck is definitely not fast in killing opponent (I see rock similar to landstill, they both try to control the game in different manner and win later). A fast deck can be aggro or combo.

Beating landstill is not that easy and @slate , you even don't run witness, how can you think to go miles with that volrath stronghold??? landstills has no problems with that (wasteland + life/crucible), it has way more problems with things like genesis or witness (only versions with cunning wish can deal a bit with that). BG cannot even remove the planeswalker other than combat phase (not that easy once landstill stabilizes).

I think that rock cannot "draw" like other decks can do, I understand slate that plays whisper to "keep the momentum" "avoid run out gas", and it's true (when you draw 2 lands you will think "wow I just avoided 2 dead cards!"), but the problem imho is that it's not enought.
Rock is a deck that must drop / control "right now", and it wins if it sees the correct cards for the correct game.
If you draw into discard you lose to aggro (you miss the removals / fatties / gain life part)
If you draw into dudes and guys you lose to combo (you miss the discards effects)
To beat control you should draw a mix of the two...but once it is late game the gas is over in any case.

This is a common behaviour of all deck Rock-like (Tombstone, Black control, Survivals), I mean deck that have a mix of discards and board removal.

One time I was playing dreadstill, and I was crushed apart by a pox-deck... Another game I completely crushed him simply because I put the fatty numerb 2 and he drew like ritual, ritual, duress...

[MattH]

"Also, Night's Whisper is trash; try to avoid playing that." Was your comment. Very insightful.
I see you omitted where I followed up with: "I know what it does, but what it does isn't enough to justify the slot." So yeah, if you don't read the whole thing, I guess it wouldn't be insightful. Point.


How does landstill matchup or Planeswalker fit into the inclusion or uninclusion of Night's Whisper? What a completley random tangent to run off to.
...
I'll "enjoy my losing streak"
Sorry, I was getting you confused with Slyfer, who IS having a losing streak, and HAS complained about Jace in particular.


I can usually just play through a standstill and not worry too much. Volraths runs miles here. Typically it's not easy to EE or Deed for 8 pre turn 5.
I have no idea what you're talking about here. Why would anyone need to activate a Deed for X=8? I'm genuinely confused, did I miss someone suggesting Sundering Titan or something?


Comments are noted, but i dont think they apply for what i'm trying to do with the deck. Most of your suggestions are 3-4 colors and i'm trying to stick to strictly 2 colors.
Do have any rationale for sticking to 2 colors (budget concerns perhaps?) or is this just an arbitrary decision? Of course, the idea of splashing cards is meant for someone who's having trouble with Landstill (slyfer) so if that's not you, I'm not sure why you're responding to the splash suggestions.

[from Cairo]

I have no idea what you're talking about here. Why would anyone need to activate a Deed for X=8? I'm genuinely confused, did I miss someone suggesting Sundering Titan or something.

He's talking about Tombstalker, I assume.

[Kensai]

Hi, I'm new, but I've been playing The Rock for quite awhile in extended and recently starting porting it to Legacy since Pernicious Deed is gonna rotate out of extended.

Anyways, for your list Kabal, hows the split of Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives doing for you? For me I would prefer all 4 Pernicous Deeds since they hit man lands. Also, how's the deck feel without acceleration (no Birds and/or SKT)? I've been afraid to do without them, but I could be wrong. Finally, hows your matchup with Belcher? I've always had a bad matchup with combo (thats rock for you), but I was just wondering how well you do against them.

[idraleo]

i did 4th place to a local 94 player tournament, losing only by goblin in swiss (he played alone for 2 match, i get screwed on g2 and g1 i saw no answer to anything he put on the board) and winning by WW, burn, burn, faerie stompy and dredge, and go to ID with Landstill. The decklist is the same that i've posted into the page before with a simple change, i've cutted savannah in favor of a basic forest because savannah becames useless in almost 90% and more of my games in playtest. Probably next tournament i'll play -1 Hideous Laughter (wich is simply awsome against goblin) and put the 4th copy of StP in sideboard if the meta turns to goblin.

// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [10E] Treetop Village
1 [B] Bayou
1 [A] Scrubland
6 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest
2 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
4 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp

// Creatures
4 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [AP] Spiritmonger
2 [ON] Ravenous Baloth
1 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
3 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [RAV] Putrefy
2 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [OD] Haunting Echoes
SB: 3 [OD] Aegis of Honor
SB: 3 [CHK] Hideous Laughter
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate

[slyfer]

congratulations zio! :smile: it's strange to post here in english between italian people loool, but I have only a question about the list:
Don't you find treetop too slow? I don't like these aspects:
1) on the play first turn is wasted, cannot do sensei/duress
2) on the draw is even worse, you lose 2 turns
3) on Nth turn it's a winmore, you have lot of removals to push a big beast through the red zone.

Ciao beo! :laugh: