[Deck] The Rock - Adapted to Legacy

[idraleo]

I found Treetop very interesting to have even something who deal with cheap beasts. I know that they are less effective when you open they in an opening hand with StP, Seize or Sensei, but to be very uneffective they have to be the only land in your hand, but in those case you always took a mulligan even if the lonely land is a treetop or not. And on a second thought, you got always to analize what kind of deck you're facing off; so they are wasted time only in g1 when you don't probably know who you're facing off, and then they became less pretty on opening hand. Another thing to keep in mind is that you don't ever get a fatty on the board in mid-late game, sso they are perfect to deal 3 or 6 damage after you wype the board with Pernicious or get the spot in eot with StP or Putrefy.

[Vindicator101]

I know there is no "good" replacement for tarmogoyf as he is just that much better than any other creature, but I am curious to what you guys feel would do best in its slots as I just cannot afford them at this time or probably anytime soon. My best ideas were to either add the other 3 spiritmongers and an ohran viper or to throw in a playset of troll ascetics. After thinking about it another option could be Quirion dryad as it fits in the same 1g spot. This is very close to what I run for context.


Hi! With the following built I went 2nd (5-1) of 37 players on sunday at a local tournament here in germany(Haßloch).

2 Doran, the Siege Tower
3 Eternal Witness
2 Loxodon Hierarch
3 Ohran Viper
1 Shriekmaw
1 Spiritmonger
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
4 Veteran Explorer

3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives

3 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Forest
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills

[Kensai]

I think you can up the Doran count to three in place of one of the Tarmogoyf. I think throwing in the 3 other spiritmongers is bad (even the one in there right now seems out of place). 5 mana for a 6/6 is not that good in legacy unless he can't be targeted by swords, but since he can, I think your better off without the spiritmongers.

I run Doran right now in my list, and he has been serving me pretty well. He usually doesn't get sworded since I would therapy before playing him. He's also cheaper to cast and is almost the same power as spiritmonger (well damage wise anyways) And he makes Ohran Viper better as well. But if your gonna play more viper and Ohran, I think the Veteran Explorer's should be switched to Birds to give you a chance to play your 3 drops on turn 2.

[landstill101]

I'd toss in the trolls mainly because if played right, he can't die, there arnt many decks out there that run wog or damnation soo hes pretty much invincible and he lives from a deed which is huge in many matchups.and he blocks tarmogoyfs really well till you get a deed or something to get rid of them.

[slyfer]

I throw in a personal variation that I'm going to test, in order to fix the landstill match up.
Reason is that landstill is a tier1, it is popular, and has become like threshold with hundreds of variations and tech (some uses humility, some the tech 1x crime/punishment that costed me a game, some Jace, some counterbalance-top etc....endless variations, endless combinations of colors).
According to my tests, the main reason why Rock scoops to landstill is that Rock does not apply mana denial. So landstill can stabilize, goes to endgame and wins. Landstill will not counter creatures or discard, because he just need to drop lands and removals (swords, wrath, deed, *humility* is huge) and counters only deed (or stifle it) and vindicate. Stop.
The is absolutely 0 chances for Rock once late game is reached, because Rock will have 0/1 cards in hand.
So we need to use the discards to drop the bomb (destructive flow).
I try to maintain the balance for the other cards, because of course we weakend other match ups: vindicate is the main loss, swords have been replaced by smother because we need the best removal of low cc creatures, once we drop flow we create advantages and we can count on deed.
We can also chump-block early games with sakura.
The very drawback of flow is that it is a dead card in some matchups (mono color deck like stompy fearie, stompy dragon, goblins, burn and solidarity) and can be blue-blasted easily in game2 .... So in game 2 we need additional "bombs" like boil for example

lands: 20 (should be enough with 4 fixers) 1 mountain 3 swamp 6 forest 3 wooded 4 bloodstained 1 bayou 1 badland
creatures 18: 4 birds 3 witness 4 tarmagoyf 4 baloth 3 tombstalker
spell 22: 4 duress 3 cabal theraphy 4 smother 4 pernicious 4 destructive flow 3 sensei top

SIDE: 3 tormod's 3 extirpate (grave hate is mandatory, and we can recur with witness)
3 krosan grip (generic best removal)
3 pyroclasm
3 boil?? price of progress?? ancient grudge??

[Mantis]

Probably next tournament i'll play -1 Hideous Laughter (wich is simply awsome against goblin) and put the 4th copy of StP in sideboard if the meta turns to goblin.
Do you splice Hideous Laughter often enough to pick it over Infest? The extra mana you have to pay often means it can come down a turn slower, which might in some cases mean the difference between winning or losing I guess.

[Akasha]

It is not about the splice ability, it is played over infest because it is an instant. Thus taking away all the attacking goblins. Don't think it will ever be spliced :P

[idraleo]

is very difficult to get overwhelmend by goblin near turn 4 post sideboard. Assuming that you'll ever keep an hand with at least 1 stp or some Sakura to handle on Lakey, it's not unfair to be able to reach 4 mana and cast Laughter. Laughter is really cool because it breaks completely the mu and did it at istant speed, meaning that you'll handle all 1st mainphase goblin player spells. If they did some mainphase warchief + piledriver, you'll kill they as infest won't be able to do.

By the way, i think that i'll probably play with a sideboard like this at my next tournament:

3 Offallsnout
3 Extirpate
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Hideous Laughter
1 Loxodon Hierarch
3 Aegis of Honor
2 Haunting Echoes

obv with some thought on meta cards, especially against comboish that is very played in my region. If the meta will be too much combo, probably i'll drop this deck to another one ^^''

[slyfer]

You are very strong idraleo, ofalsnout + dark confidant = combo. :)))
Tormod's crypt is better!
If you feel very lucky pick up the new black faries (1BB 2/2 fly, discard: remove 2 cards), it's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ofalsnout

[idraleo]

Offallsnout is even better because it handle simoultaneously Ichorids and bridges. It dodges almost the hate in form of Chains, Pithing and Echoing Truth, and you' ll never find an opponent who call him by Cabal Therapy. The new black faerie is pretty but it doesn't handle bridges, so it will be even worst than Tormod...

[Zach Tartell]

I'm a little confused as to the inclusion of Aegis of Honor as opposed to Circle of Protection: Red.

Aegis only hits burn, where as COP:Red hits goblins, Dragon Stompy, and even (to an extent) Enchantress.

[Nihil Credo]

Offallsnout is even better because it handle simoultaneously Ichorids and bridges. It dodges almost the hate in form of Chains, Pithing and Echoing Truth, and you' ll never find an opponent who call him by Cabal Therapy. The new black faerie is pretty but it doesn't handle bridges, so it will be even worst than Tormod...
If you are worried of Ichorid players hating on Crypt, you can play Heap Doll from Shadowmoor. It's an artifact Mogg Fanatic that, instead of dealing damage, removes a card in a graveyard from the game.

[idraleo]

Mu against D.stompy is unrelevant and even not decided by a random CoP. You'll never side in them, if you play my decklist, because the mu is however very good, and they'll be an add on unrelevant. What you want to resolve against Dstompy is Pernicious, and if they side in Pithing Needle you probably go to find out Vindicate or Putrefy to blow them up. Post sb, against Dstompy, they probably cut off Chalices to play Pithing, meaning that your StP will be viable post side. Against goblin CoP is a good card but it took goblin hate in form of disenchant effects, so i'd rather side in Hideous Laughter that dodges all goblin side in and did a pretty wrath of god to a single part of the board. Aegis is perfect to handle burn mu, wich is frequent in my metagame, and avoid Flames of the Blood Hand if played. It's casting cost is a powerhouse because it stops Burn since turn2, meaning that you'll probably took on 6 damage and did a pretty trick if you opponent put a suspended rift bolt on turn 2.

EDIT: Heap Doll is pretty too, but it has the problem to go under EOT bounce effect, opponent turn dredge and get bridges. I'd rather play with 1 black mana open and go throught Offallsnout.

[morgan_coke]

Just a note on Hideous Laughter.. Isn't Hail Storm the exact same spell except cheaper and better and more one sided?

Hideous Laughter 2BB
Instant - Arcane
All creatures get -2/-2 until end of turn.
~some useless thing called Splice~


Hail Storm 1GG
Instant
Hail Storm deals 2 damage to each attacking creature and 1 damage to you and 1 damage to each creature you control.

[conboy31]

Has anyone had any success with a 2 color rockish build consisting of black and green?

It would stay true to the decks general theme by running cards like:

Eternal Witness
Shriekmaw
Tarmogoyf
Tombstalker
Veteran Explorer
Cabal Therapy +/- Thoughtseize +/- Hymn
Pernicious Deed
Engineered Explosives
Volrath's Stronghold
Wasteland
Smother

The deck loses STP -> Smother and much of the lifegain creatures. The plus is that it gets greater consistency with the lands and can run wastelands. I am hoping that dropping white can be feasible, but the deck loses some relative staples.

[arsenalpow]

Has anyone had any success with a 2 color rockish build consisting of black and green?

It would stay true to the decks general theme by running cards like:

Eternal Witness
Shriekmaw
Tarmogoyf
Tombstalker
Veteran Explorer
Cabal Therapy +/- Thoughtseize +/- Hymn
Pernicious Deed
Engineered Explosives
Volrath's Stronghold
Wasteland
Smother

The deck loses STP -> Smother and much of the lifegain creatures. The plus is that it gets greater consistency with the lands and can run wastelands. I am hoping that dropping white can be feasible, but the deck loses some relative staples.

Wouldn't that be almost exactly like eva green? Efficient clock + disruption?

[landstill101]

Has anyone had any success with a 2 color rockish build consisting of black and green?

It would stay true to the decks general theme by running cards like:

Eternal Witness
Shriekmaw
Tarmogoyf
Tombstalker
Veteran Explorer
Cabal Therapy +/- Thoughtseize +/- Hymn
Pernicious Deed
Engineered Explosives
Volrath's Stronghold
Wasteland
Smother

The deck loses STP -> Smother and much of the lifegain creatures. The plus is that it gets greater consistency with the lands and can run wastelands. I am hoping that dropping white can be feasible, but the deck loses some relative staples.


You can easily remove white, I can't tell you the list I use mainly because the creator wants to keep it a surprise. But here are most of the cards in it.
goyf(duh)
eternal witness
smother
lftl
baloth
sinkhole
deed
extirpate
duress
seize

land:
bayou
(the 2 damage duel land one)
volraths stronghold
wasteland


2 secret tech


The deck does very well in my meta, always makes top 4 and most of the time top 2. The deck has great matchups against everyone except goblins which it sucks because it doesnt have an answer to lackey if you don't go first, but if it can get past the first turn lackey, it has a very good matchup and it has a ton of sideboard to help for this. The deck does really well late game with all the disruption and all the recursion.

[idraleo]

Has anyone had any success with a 2 color rockish build consisting of black and green?

It would stay true to the decks general theme by running cards like:

Eternal Witness
Shriekmaw
Tarmogoyf
Tombstalker
Veteran Explorer
Cabal Therapy +/- Thoughtseize +/- Hymn
Pernicious Deed
Engineered Explosives
Volrath's Stronghold
Wasteland
Smother

The deck loses STP -> Smother and much of the lifegain creatures. The plus is that it gets greater consistency with the lands and can run wastelands. I am hoping that dropping white can be feasible, but the deck loses some relative staples.

Goblin is a mu that you can't handle without StP. Cutting white also force you to drop Vindicate, wich is always the bomb against stax based deck with Pernicious too; you also had to cut Aegis\CoP and some viable jedi mind as Rule of Law and\or Orim's Chant. Adding some random Wasteland is very useless if not supported by a solid denial strategy, that means playing Sinkholes and probably some mana accelerator as Dark Ritual and\or Chrome Mox. If you want to go on something like this, probably Evagreen shoul be a better choice than a less solid Rock build.

Hail Storm vs Hideous Laughter: i know what Hail did, but sometimes i've found some difficulty to handle on casual Mother of Runes on the other side of the board, and moreover to some RG beatz or Zillastompy buil, wich performs Ascetics and XXXboa's (River or Mire). Those creatures, especially Ascetic, dodges all other removal and is a continous infinite blocker, i've been paired against those decks on some later tournament and Laughter did some pretty 3-4x1 on those regenerating fatties. I know that there is a fairly common possibility and that these mu is not frequent as Landstill or 3shold, but i don't want to risk a random loss by some random decks. At least, Hideous performs well against goblin too, so i'm running it because is useful in multiple mus.

[Media314r8]

I think the Veteran Explorer's should be switched to Birds to give you a chance to play your 3 drops on turn 2.

If I'm not mistaken, the playing of veteran explorer and cabal therapy can facilitate the playing of a turn two three drop: (while accelerating you by two turns rather than one, and getting a damage in... if thats relevant, i suppose trading with lackey is more relevant.)

Turn 1: land, explorer
Turn 2: land, swing, therapy, sac explorer to flashback therapy, (triggering the fetch two basics, grab whatever two basics you need to play doran/viper) resolve therapy. Tap your three untapped lands to play doran/viper.

[Jak]

Turn 1: land, explorer
Turn 2: land, swing, therapy, sac explorer to flashback therapy, (triggering the fetch two basics, grab whatever two basics you need to play doran/viper) resolve therapy. Tap your three untapped lands to play doran/viper.

Therapy still costs one. So you have two untapped.

[from Cairo]

Therapy still costs one. So you have two untapped.



Turn 1: land, explorer
Turn 2: land, swing, therapy, sac explorer to flashback therapy, (triggering the fetch two basics, grab whatever two basics you need to play doran/viper) resolve therapy. Tap your three untapped lands to play doran/viper.

Upon resolution of Explorer's ability you have your Turn 1 Land, your Turn 2 Land, and 2 Basics... You've tapped one of these 4 Land for a 1cc card and have 3 mana available.

[idraleo]

seriously, there is people wich play explorer and still thought it could be competitive?

EDIT: I thought i write the question bad. As i never tested Explorer, i'm really scared on the advantage it could gave to opponents. I'm wandering on a match where opponent starts mountain>fanatic, you did explorer, eot opponent activate fanatic on explorer and get 2 lands, turn2 he did warchief+driver or lakey+ matron or ringleader. Is it really what the deck needs? Sometimes you could win by opponent screw, but playing explorer means that opponent won't ever haver had few than 3 lands in play.

[lavafrogg]

Has anyone tried kitchen finks in this deck. It seems good in a build with unearth and small pox...hmm let me think

Disruption
Smallpox(Finks Bonus)
Duress
Thoughtsieze
Hymm
Cabal Therapy(Finks Bonus)

Dudes
Dark Confidant
Tarmogoyf
Kitchen Finks
Eternal Witness
Nimble Mongoose
Werebear (Where?)

Utility
Unearth
Life From the Loam
Pernicious Deed

Lands
Volraths stronghold
Wasteland
Cycle lands
Mishras Factory

So Roughly

Dudes 18
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness

Spells 20
4 Smallpox
3 Unearth
4 Thoughtsieze
3 Duress/Cabal Therapy
3 Life from the Loam
3 Pernicious Deed

Land 22
3 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Wasteland
1 Volraths Stronghold
3 Cycle lands
3 Mishras Factories

This is a rough draft thought of in my head just now so I will give it a try on MWS...be back

[Jak]

Upon resolution of Explorer's ability you have your Turn 1 Land, your Turn 2 Land, and 2 Basics... You've tapped one of these 4 Land for a 1cc card and have 3 mana available.

Ugh, I can't read.

[landstill101]

Other than the kitchen fink card(which in my opinion is really not worth it for the cost when you can play ravanous baloth which in my opinion is better), are there anything else from the new set that any one here feels can be a hopeful prospect for rock?

[lavafrogg]

Finks imo is better than baloth and more synergistic with the rest of the deck. It survives the first smallpox and deed activations and gains you life in the process. I have been testing my build and it is not that bad. Smallpox as the main disruption source has been amazing. T2 smallpox discarding witness and then unearthing the witness to get back the unearth is not bad.

Finks has been better than expected ans a 3/2 anmd then 2/1 body swings for the win after a few castings of smallpox.

Im in school until tonight but I will post a breif summary of how testing has gone when I get back.

[idraleo]

from SHM we should take Sushers and Guttural, Finks should be a nice add on but only on aggro-based decklist.

Btw, last sunday i won a 56 people tournament with my latest decklist posted the page before, with the changes in sb i've told; this time i runned this one:

1 Hierarch
1 StP
2 Haunting Echoes
3 Extirpate
3 Aegis
2 Hideous
3 Offallsnout

by now i did 2 top4, 1 top8 and 1 1st place in 5 tournaments with this decklist, nice performance for an ATW ^^

[Holo_rip]

i have a few question for you guiys that play The Rock.
i've payed pikula for thing like 1 years now, and i got nearly all the card for The Rock.
What is the strengh and weakness of this deck (I.E. pourcentage of win againt tier deck like : *****, gob, ichorid, combo; landstill).
In what kind of metagame would you play The Rock ?

Also, i don't see many people running a singleton recuring nightmare. This card is awsome late game, and it let you do some sick trick. Your opinion ?

Mouarf.

[landstill101]

i have a few question for you guiys that play The Rock.
i've payed pikula for thing like 1 years now, and i got nearly all the card for The Rock.
What is the strengh and weakness of this deck (I.E. pourcentage of win againt tier deck like : *****, gob, ichorid, combo; landstill).
In what kind of metagame would you play The Rock ?

Also, i don't see many people running a singleton recuring nightmare. This card is awsome late game, and it let you do some sick trick. Your opinion ?

Mouarf.

Really it matters on which version you want to play, if you want to stick with many of the lists on this forum, your going to have a 50/50 against goblins, maybe a 60/40 against threshold(really matters on the skill of the threshold player) ichorid is just horrid untill you side, if combo if played right, you have a 40/60 and landstill is a horrid matchup for you.

[idraleo]

Landstill is not an horrid mu for me, probably is the mu where the version that you play is the most important thing, skill or not...

About the mu, you got a good 60/40 against every stax-based deck too.

[Zach Tartell]

idraleo, I still don't understand the inclusion of aeggis (sp?) of honor over that of Circle of Protection: Red. Having tested both in my Enchantress builds, I have to say that COP:R is just worlds better (since it can shut down Dragon Stompy, end games against Burn, and slow down games against Goblins considerably).

Reasoning?

[Media314r8]

seriously, there is people wich play explorer and still thought it could be competitive?

EDIT: I thought i write the question bad. As i never tested Explorer, I'm really scared on the advantage it could gave to opponents. I'm wandering on a match where opponent starts mountain>fanatic, you did explorer, eot opponent activate fanatic on explorer and get 2 lands, turn2 he did warchief+driver or lackey+ matron or ringleader. Is it really what the deck needs? Sometimes you could win by opponent screw, but playing explorer means that opponent won't ever haver had few than 3 lands in play.

Well sometimes your opponent has the nuts, and they just win, so nice god hand, go to game 2. Not many rock variants can beat that hand anyway provided they have some kind of wierding/incinerator effect to ensure their dudes connect. Just because once in a blue moon your opponent has the nuts and takes advantage of your dudes is not a reason not to play them. Often after boards in thresh mirrors, you fail to bring in K grips and your opponent threads your goyf, that doesn't mean you should stop playing goyfs just because in that situation your opponent burgled your goyf and 2-for-1'd you with it. So many tier 1 decks run few/no basics that explorer is worth the potential drawback vs MUC and goblins. (which you should board them out against)

The decks that can often grab two or more basics with explorer:
2c/mono Goblins
MUC
Mono-aggro decks (which save for pikula/MBC cannot fully exploit having so many more basics in play, and even then, having lots of lands > smallpox.)
Solidarity
Geddon' stacks
GR survival

Decks that often cannot get any/only run 1 basic which they may have fetched anyway after seeing black lands played:
Tempo thresh
4c and some 3c thresh lists
every combo deck outside of some FT builds and solidarity/springtide
3c goblins
most 3c/4c landstill builds
Affinity

So about half the time it is a symmetrical effect, but in most of these cases (save for vs MUC, solidarity, and goblins) you can better abuse your copious amounts of mana than your opponent can. The times when your opponent either just shuffles their deck or shrugs outweigh the times when its a neutral effect. Often against goblins and sui/pikula, you can get them to drop their hand/overextend into the deed that you're able to play/crack same turn to million for one them.

In addition to the above explanation, I believe that explorer>birds in decks running therapy/deed for the following reasons:
Explorer beats for 1/trades with lackey turn 1
Explorer has synergy with therapy/deed rather than sucks with them
Explorer is insane vs bloodmoon/wasteland decks as he sits there and threatens to block, thus ensuring that they cannot starve you of colored mana and you will have access to basics. Birds die to removal.
Explorer 'rocks' against devastating dreams, as you get your basics after the resolution... and while 2 lands may not be enough to recover from an aggro loam deck pitching lots of stuff to DD, its a hell of a lot better than 0 lands and a dead birds. 'Is 2 lands can evoke a shriekmaw which can kill a crusher/terravore?'
2 Permanent mana sources > 1 mana source that dies to everything.
I f'ing hate birds in legacy. (perhaps not in survival, but I'd probably still play explorer)

[Nihil Credo]

idraleo, I still don't understand the inclusion of aeggis (sp?) of honor over that of Circle of Protection: Red. Having tested both in my Enchantress builds, I have to say that COP:R is just worlds better (since it can shut down Dragon Stompy, end games against Burn, and slow down games against Goblins considerably).

Reasoning?
I'll answer for short:

1) Dragon Stompy is played by exactly two people in the DragonsLeague region, and perhaps 3-4 in the whole of Italy, and it's a fantastic matchup anyway thanks to lots of removal and basic lands.
2) Goblins will SB Disenchants or Grips anyway, as they expect Engineered Plague from a Black deck, so extra removal that doesn't kill your fatties is probably better than CoP: Red (personally I'm not sure it's better than Plagues, though, but Idraleo loves his Hideous Laughters and they seem to work).
3) Against Burn, Aegis of Honor is significantly better than CoP: Red. For one, it comes down on turn 1, which means you take 3 to 6 less damage from their first Bolts. Suppose that you tap several of your lands for a creature (you have to, otherwise they will eventually draw Disenchants/Needle): Burn can waste a few Bolts to make you tap out and then resolve the extra ones. With Aegis of Honor, this strategy is much more painful for them.

Note that 3) doesn't apply to Enchantress since it has so much mana it can afford to leave lots untapped, and with Sterling Groves/Seal of Primordium it doesn't worry about getting CoP: Red Disenchanted/Needled...

[idraleo]

A special big thanks goes to Nihil that resumes right what i've explained to him when we meet on tournaments. Metachoices tooks theyr part in my sideboard build up, recently my regional meta is less goblin populated, and the flag of the most played red aggro deck goes to Burn. So i decided to give to burn a focused tool in my sb and Aegis fits peferctly, because burn players won't waste tons of theyr burn spells to make u tap mana as they did with a CoP. Aegis, however, works against Flames of the Blood Hand and the new Everlasting Torment, wich i thought will probably be played. Also, i love to saw my opponent who plays Goblin that sides in 3-4 Disenchant effect and then dies by a well played Hideous Laughter.

I would spend a couple of words on Hideous Laughter: as Aegis was for Burn, Hideous is against all less popular aggro decks. Hail Storm did well as Hideous do against goblin and costs 1 less mana, but i' ve found that Hideous gives a nice advantage against some tier2 aggro deck, such as WWx builds and Zillastopy, or even other RG or Domain aggroish decks.

[No.21]

I've just started to play The Rock and i wanted to ask. Someone in my local area
plays a control deck and like theres heaps of counter magic in it, like spell snare FoW, leak counterspell etc and i wanted to ask how can i deal with those problems.

Can vexing shusher be a good sideboard option?

[landstill101]

I've just started to play The Rock and i wanted to ask. Someone in my local area
plays a control deck and like theres heaps of counter magic in it, like spell snare FoW, leak counterspell etc and i wanted to ask how can i deal with those problems.

Can vexing shusher be a good sideboard option?

Alot of discard.... add more hymns, duresses, and thoughtseize and they blue player screams, if he is truly dumb enough to force a first turn or even a second turn discard, it is amazing to see them lose a hand quickly from a horrible play mistake. If he counters your discard, you still get a card out of his hand he has less counter to hit your creatures, and if he doesn't counter it you have a ton more options to choose to make them discard.

[idraleo]

Is a mu where discard spells are, obv, relevant. The bad thing against Landstill and other control based is that we don't have a fast clock, so we can sweep off theyr hands and still lose by some good topdeck, such as FoF or Standstill. Full non-basic lands manabase are also a false friend in those mu: you should be owned by a Crucible + Wasteland or simply concede on a B2B or MotM (MotM is not in those mu, but took his oart in those game situation), so be sure to build up the deck to get out from those situations. Is also a mu where Eternal Witness did her best, moreover if you play Cabal Therapy and some Extirpate post sideboard.

Vexing Susher in a metagame filled by blue based controls should be a good option, but remember that each of your opponent deck will have some way to handle a cc2 2\2 creature, from STP to Powder Keg to EE. Obv it will do some difference when you'll keep it on the board for 2 or 3 turns, but it not "the" answer to handle those mu.

[Agent J]

I played the following list today at our local tournament and was quite succesful with it:

// Lands
6 Forest
4 Treetop Village
2 Bayou
4 Windswept Heath
6 Swamp

// Creatures
4 Eternal Witness
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Ravenous Baloth
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder

// Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Living Wish
2 Profane Command
3 Harmonize

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Ravenous Baloth
SB: 1 Gigapede
SB: 1 Withered Wretch
SB: 1 Volrath's Stronghold
SB: 1 Shriekmaw
SB: 1 Indrik Stomphowler
SB: 1 Tombstalker
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Extirpate

Round 1 vs. Truffle Shuffle:
Game 1 I rip his hand apart with Thoughtseize + Therapy and Goyf + Witness are enough to win. Game 2 we exchange some disruption in the beginning but I can extirpate his Extirpates and some Harominzes and Witnesses/Extirpates later I can win easily. 1:0
Round 2 vs. NQG (UGrw):
Somehow he doesn't find that many threats in both games so I never was in danger. I also had Explorer + Therapy in both games which gave me a huge advantage. 2:0
Round 3 vs. Solidarity:
Not much to write about either. I take 4 mulligans in the two games and don't get nearly as much disruption as I would need. 2:1
Round 4 vs. Fetchland Tendrils:
While I didn't find any discard vs. Hightide I got rewarded with tons of it during this match. Usually by turn 3 his hand was empty and Goyfs + Witness won the games. Baloth saved me one time too because he couldn't get beyond 10 storm count. 3:1
Round 5 vs. NQG (UGr):
Game 1 he gets me down to 8 but I can resolve a Deed and kill his Mongoose and Goyf. The second Goyf is eaten by Shriekmaw and a Goyf of my own finishes the job. Game 2 was just ridiculous. He starts with Mongoose, I answer with Veteran Explorer. He filters some cards and I resolve Therapy snatching Force of Will. Turn 3 I flashback Therapy (searching for two lands), take out his Threads of Disloyalty, play Garruk, untap two lands and cast Tarmogoyf. ;) 4:1

Besides the report I don't have much to add to the discussion at the moment but I really like the deck. ;)

[YuanTi]

This is my current list:

// Lands
4 [U] Bayou
4 [4E] Forest (3)
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [U] Savannah
1 [B] Scrubland
2 [TSP] Swamp (2)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [MM] Plains (4)
4 [UL] Treetop Village

// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks

// Spells
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [LOR] Garruk Wildspeaker
3 [JU] Living Wish
3 [PLC] Harmonize
3 [LOR] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Eternal Witness
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [TSB] Withered Wretch
SB: 1 [LOR] Shriekmaw
SB: 1 [DIS] Indrik Stomphowler
SB: 1 [FUT] Tombstalker
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold

This has been excellent so far, Ichorid can be a problem game 1, but 2 and 3 I can usually deal with them. I'm having most trouble with Belcher, but apart from the discard suite, there's not much I can do against that, is there? Finks have been far better than Heirarch or Baloth, I recommend everyone tries them.

[adrieng]

How is living wish better than survival of the fittest?
I think the best to do is the rock with survival .
At the moment I am testing a deck which is between the rock survival , with the painter s combo in it.I think the painter's combo in survival-rock builds helps a lot to win faster and is also nice against stax/43 lands decks.


4 survival of the fittest
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
1 genesis
1 squee
4 veteran explorer
3 eternal witness
3 trinket mage
1 shriekmaw


4 brainstorm
4 cabal therapy
3 EE
2 pernicious deed

1 painters servant
1 grindstone

3 bayou
3 tropical island
4 wooded
4 polluted
4 forest
1 island
1 swamp

[Hightower]

Survival + Deed is not the bestest combo.. But it can be done, although I don't think its necessarily the best way to go for "The Rock" decks.

[idraleo]

that's not "The Rock". Survival thread is another one. You' ve just badly merged 2 different decks, wasting tons of slots on Survival targets. What makes Rock one of the DTB by the moment is it solidity first. Your decklist lacks on removal, and Veteran Explorer is absolutely bad when you get a mirror.

[spirit of the wretch]

My team partner Manuel won the last two Hassloch tourneys (30-40 people) with the following list:

8 Forest
4 Swamp
4 Bayou
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Wasteland

4 Dark Confidant
4 Shriekmaw
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Troll Asketic

2 Puterify
3 Smother
4 Pernicious Deed

2 Umezawa’s Jitte
3 Senseis Divining Top

4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress



Sideboard:

3 Pithing Needle
4 Engineered Plague
4 Krosan Grip
4 Extirpate

The manabase isn't opizmized at all and the Putrefys may become Tombstalkers but otherwise this list is really solid. Especially the Troll Ascetics are a true powerhouse! In the current meta they are alsmost impossible to kill.

[Hightower]

that's not "The Rock". Survival thread is another one. You' ve just badly merged 2 different decks, wasting tons of slots on Survival targets. What makes Rock one of the DTB by the moment is it solidity first. Your decklist lacks on removal, and Veteran Explorer is absolutely bad when you get a mirror.

Exactly =P

[idraleo]

@ Spirit of the Wretch

Troll Ascetic is underrated in this format, but i think that should be better if you run at least 3\4 equipment such as Jitte, SoLS, SoFI. A single Loxodon Warhammer could be viable, it is good to get your Goyf's over the opponent one and did good thing on a Shriekmaw. Probably in your decklist i'll see better +1 land +1 equipment -2 duress.

[YuanTi]

Ascetic is good and all, but in the Metagoyf its not usuallly going to achieve much. 3 for a 3/2 isnt bad, but he's rarely going to actually deal the beats, and eats up your mana each time you use him to block.

I'm not a fan of equipment here. Better to destroy their creatures I think.

[idraleo]

Ascetic is good and all, but in the Metagoyf its not usuallly going to achieve much. 3 for a 3/2 isnt bad, but he's rarely going to actually deal the beats, and eats up your mana each time you use him to block.

I'm not a fan of equipment here. Better to destroy their creatures I think.

probably you missed the 4 Shriekmaw, 4 Pernicious, 3 Smother and 2 Putrefy that he runs maindeck to handle opponents Tarmogoyf. And Jitte on Ascetic is always better than Goyf.

[spirit of the wretch]

probably you missed the 4 Shriekmaw, 4 Pernicious, 3 Smother and 2 Putrefy that he runs maindeck to handle opponents Tarmogoyf. And Jitte on Ascetic is always better than Goyf.

QFT. Furthermore: Jitte IS removal! And a Troll with equipment deals with the Metagoyf just perfectly.

[YuanTi]

Yes, Jitte is removal, but its poor compared to other removal, due to its reliance on creatures (12 of which are likely to be able to carry it, 8 of which you want carrying it), so you're better off just running the straight removal, which there is enough of anyway.

[slyfer]

Troll turn 3 is very very slow.
No witness, no recursion = bad (it's rock after all)
Shriekmaw is poor card without recursion imho

[Zach Tartell]

Yes, Jitte is removal, but its poor compared to other removal, due to its reliance on creatures (12 of which are likely to be able to carry it, 8 of which you want carrying it), so you're better off just running the straight removal, which there is enough of anyway.

I don't follow that math. He runs 16 creatures. None of them have Shroud or Pro: Artifacts. Are you forgetting that Shriekmaw doesn't always have a cost of :1::b:?

[YuanTi]

I don't follow that math. He runs 16 creatures. None of them have Shroud or Pro: Artifacts. Are you forgetting that Shriekmaw doesn't always have a cost of :1::b:?

Nope, but it costs 5. He has 22 lands, and no acceleration of any kind. So he's not going to be able to drop that at turn 5 at the earliest, which is pretty unlikely. Jitte costs 2, so he wants to equip it turn 4 usually.

Confidant is a pretty poor Jitte holder, as he dies to any creature with power (which is pretty much every creature played in this format), and usually you want him for card draw, so I doubt sending him in with a Jitte is the plan.

So that leaves 8 creatures you want to carry a Jitte. Maw can late game, but its mana consuming, and they'll usually have a kill for Jitte or Maw at that point, unless you've already won.

[idraleo]

That' s a very restricted point of view. I' m happy to saw that you' re able with math, but sometimes happens that someone casts a Shriekmaw on turn 5 or equip a Confidant with Jitte and attack with it. That' s not usual as it is for Tarmogoyf or Ascetic, but it could happen.

[landstill101]

@ Spirit of the Wretch

Troll Ascetic is underrated in this format, but i think that should be better if you run at least 3\4 equipment such as Jitte, SoLS, SoFI. A single Loxodon Warhammer could be viable, it is good to get your Goyf's over the opponent one and did good thing on a Shriekmaw. Probably in your decklist i'll see better +1 land +1 equipment -2 duress.

As i'm looking back at the posts and such, I would like to answer a quick question on troll Ascetic, in theory a creature that costs 3 and does not have any come into play abilities is too slow, most decks now a days that have creatures that cost more than 2 have CIP effects:
witness
matron
ringleader
baloth
etc...

or they are huge beaters such as:
enforcer
tombstalker
exalted angel

This kind of makes troll ascetic look bad. This also makes it hard if you don't make a land drop each turn, you are wasting mana to protect the troll blocking a goyf instead of playing spells, which in the long run will always lose you the game. Troll is way way to slow against goblins, way to slow against combo, and gets beat by control decks because of cards like deed and wrath.
Troll is very underrated card, its one of my favorite cards in the game, but compared to many cards around it, it just doesn't fit the deckstyle right now.

[idraleo]

and gets beat by control decks because of cards like deed and wrath

Wrath is ok, but i' m wondering if you know how regeneration works against Deed XD

[Serpico]

Hallo guys, I'm new of the forum and I salute you all. I want to ask you: what do you think about the use of Ravenous Baloth and Grave-Shell Scarab in BG Rock Legacy decklist? It seems to me that second could be very good against blue based control decks, even if it has mana cost 5.

[purlqg]

Hallo guys, I'm new of the forum and I salute you all. I want to ask you: what do you think about the use of Ravenous Baloth and Grave-Shell Scarab in BG Rock Legacy decklist? It seems to me that second could be very good against blue based control decks, even if it has mana cost 5.

I would always play Gigapede over Grave-Shell if I wanted a 5cc beater against control. Gigapede is imposible to target because of shroud, kills a big goyf and beats for 6 instead of 4.

Baloth is a stable, I always run 2-3 Loxodon Hierach/Ravenous Baloth in my legacy the rock or Truffle Shuffle decks. The life gain can turn the tide, and they are great recurring with Volrath's Stronghold/Eternal Witness against burn.

[spirit of the wretch]

Ok, I'm going to say this nice and slowly: Please, try to run the Troll in your builds and judge him afterwards. It's not like I'm saying the Troll is good in theory, what I want to say is: Troll Ascetic will singlehandly win you games! Yes, he really is THAT good. A 3 power indestructible Creature for 3 Mana is a goddamn bargain!
Now be nice and test him! Do it! NOW!
[/flames]

[Holiday]

This is my BG build I have been playing and altering since 2003 extended. I would like some help with my deck. I have recently added trolls and started testing. The trolls are great against some decks but I am having a tough time against fast aggro decks like goblins. I am also getting beat by Ichorid.

2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
4 Treetop Village
3 Bayou
5 Swamp
6 Forest
22

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
4 Trolls Ascetic
3 Eternal Witness
3 Spiritmonger
18

4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious deed
3 Living Wish
3 Smother
3 Putrify
20

SB
1 Bayou
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Spiritmonger
1 Ravenous Baloth
1 Withered Wretch
1 Shriekmaw
1 Eternal Witness
1 Viridian Zealot
3 Krosan grip
4 Extirpate
15

Changes and Ideas for consideration:
I know I'm gonna get shit for having the Spiritmongers. I justify that I have 8 cards for acceleration and these guys can come down very quickly. But I'm also willing to replace them if someone can suggest what might be a better fit.

I am considering removing my living wishes/wishboard altogether to make room in my sideboard for cards such as Leyline of the Void and Engineered Plague to improve my tough matchups.

Profane Command interests me, but I haven't tested it yet. I sometimes have a ton of mana late-game and feel this might be a versatile card that could be good mid-game and late-game.

Diabolic Edict, good against shroud creatures, but is it better than smother for picking off pesky goyfs?

Shriekmaw, I am considering replacing my wishes for 2 or 3 if I decide to drop the living wish idea. The disadvantage is they are useless against manlands.

I look forward to hearing your suggestions!

-Holiday

[slyfer]

Don't you run out of gas? no confidant, no sensei top?
Sensei top 4x alone is worthy (with fetch + sakura is nice) you could try also the harmonize because you have 8 accelerant.

[Holiday]

I definately would say that many games I run out of gas. Often I'm sitting late game on a boat load of mana. I like both of your ideas. I am leaning towards harmonize for the late game card advantage. What might I cut for this?

[Andrej]

Hello guys, I am new in here and wanna know what you think about this rock-list:

\\Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Savannah
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Volrath's Stronghold

\\Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Doran, the Siege Tower
4 Treefolk Harbinger
2 Mystic Enforcer
2 Eternal Witness

\\Spells
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Duress
4 Vindicate
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thoughtseize

// Sideboard:
SB: 4 Extirpate
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 4 Wheel of Sun and Moon


The most other's dont like the Treefolk Harbringer, but I think he is underestimated. I also thought about Loxodon to add Hierarch or Troll Ascetic, but find no Slots for them ... also i wanna a third Eternal Witness. Wich suggestions have you for me?

[Elf_Ascetic]

If you're playing Harbringer, play 3 Doran, 3 Harbringer. Think that's just better.

[idraleo]

This topic sucks. Really. Every page someone came out with almost 2\3 different decklist, and anyone discuss no one of them. It is a mere thread where post a list, and wait that the new page begin to restart again.

I think that is necessary to split the discussion into 2 different topics, one for the aggroish-based decklists, and another one for the most controllish one, it will help to keep discussions clear and to stop this degenerating thread.

[darkalucard]

This topic does suck. It needs a better primer, I would volunteer to right one if anybody cares enough.

What should realy be discused is the ratio of disruption/utility/threats/removal/etc and things like that not this card or that card because at the end of the day, removal is removal. It kills a creature.

We could then go from there to refine it and decide upon which cards and such, it should be a process of trying to come up with a unified decklist. The problem is since it is a metagame like deck and very controling, not based on some type of theme really. The deck is basically a pile of good cards.

We should strive to make a more defined core like Landstill has.

The Rock desirves better attention, it is a very good deck, I do not understand why more people do not play it. I'm assuming it's because they would rather play Landstill but I belive the Rock can be even better than Landstill. Maybe nobody plays it because they cannot understand how to win with it, or because a small mistake will cost you the game but in Landstill the card advantage will make up for it?

[Jak]

This topic does suck. It needs a better primer, I would volunteer to right one if anybody cares enough.

What should realy be discused is the ratio of disruption/utility/threats/removal/etc and things like that not this card or that card because at the end of the day, removal is removal. It kills a creature.

We could then go from there to refine it and decide upon which cards and such, it should be a process of trying to come up with a unified decklist. The problem is since it is a metagame like deck and very controling, not based on some type of theme really. The deck is basically a pile of good cards.

We should strive to make a more defined core like Landstill has.

The Rock desirves better attention, it is a very good deck, I do not understand why more people do not play it. I'm assuming it's because they would rather play Landstill but I belive the Rock can be even better than Landstill. Maybe nobody plays it because they cannot understand how to win with it, or because a small mistake will cost you the game but in Landstill the card advantage will make up for it?

Ithink itdoeshave acore, but people like to play BGW or just BG. I think BGW is stronger due to swords, doran, and vindcate, but BG is more rockish wih a sturdy mana base.

Anyway, if you are playing 3c, then these are your must haves.

4 Goyf
3 Doran
2 Stalker

4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords
4 Vindicate
4 Deed

20-24 Lands

Then add some more threats, accel, draw, and disruption like Duress, Hymn, Birds, Spectral Lynx, Harmonize, DC, etc.

[darkalucard]

But even here we can have an argument, we have to decide how Aggro or Control we should go. Doran and Thoughtseize only fit in the more aggro builds while a little slower would be Loxodon and Duress. I would even debate Vindicate.

Here is a more flexible core:

Disruption: 4-10
4x Duress/Thought seize
0-4x Cabal Therapy / Hymn / Gerrard / Castigate
0-3x Extirpate

Utility: 6-8
4x Birds / Sakura / Veteran
2-4x Witness

Threats: 6-12
4x Goyf
3-4x Doran / Loxodon
2-4x Tombstalker / Troll / Etc

Removal: 12-16
4x Swords
4x Deed
4x Vidicate / Putrefy / Smother / Shriekmaw
1-3x Explosives / Punishment

Card Advantage: 4-8
3-4x Living/Glittering Wish / Harmonize / LFTL / Survival
3x Sensei Diving Top

Lands: 22-23
3-4x Treetop/Monastary
1x Volrath
4-8x Fetch
Xx Dual
Xx Basics

What we should do is refine how many of each category we should play.

Then we argue which cards to play.

We can later decide if its worth play white.

[Jak]

The Rock is a deck packed with disruption and then lays some big beats. Just because the deck plays cheaper big guys, doesn't mean you should turn this into an all-out aggresive deck. I think the best way to build it would be a mix of both. PLay the best guys of the colors and play the top disruption. FInd a happy medium where you can knock the opponent offbalance and then drop a Goyf or Stalker or Doran. Playing cheaper beats means that more disruption can be played every turn. You don't have to decide to play a creature turn 4 or cast that Hymn. You can play a Goyf and then clear the opponent's hand.

I do like Heirarch and would put him in the SB, for sure. MD would be a maybe.

[idraleo]

The Rock desirves better attention, it is a very good deck, I do not understand why more people do not play it. I'm assuming it's because they would rather play Landstill but I belive the Rock can be even better than Landstill. Maybe nobody plays it because they cannot understand how to win with it, or because a small mistake will cost you the game but in Landstill the card advantage will make up for it?

This makes me lol, i play the same decklist by 6 months and did large playtest with it, i' ve done many tournaments and miss only a top8, i did top4 in a 96 player tournament and won a 56 player tournament last month, but when i posted my decklist it has been ever overwhelmed by fucking spam as "Hi, i'm new and that's my superpowerrangerBGsuicideIsuckalotbutIdidsomethinginsometournament Rock decklist" or a simple "Spiritmonger is a Timmy card, Tarmogoyf permorfs better ever" exc, this is a little frustrating because i started think that people are more interested to post theyr decklists and masturbate when they read a positive reply instead of discuss on decklists that did well on tournaments and is really playtested. The real problem is that the thread needs a decklist to take as an example and then we can start discuss as in a normal thread.

[xsockmonkeyx]

You don't have to decide to play a creature turn 4 or cast that Hymn. You can play a Goyf and then clear the opponent's hand.

Why would you ever cast Goyf before Hymn in this case? Bait? I dont get it.


i started think that people are more interested to post theyr decklists and masturbate when they read a positive reply instead of discuss on decklists that did well on tournaments and is really playtested.

Welcome to the Source!

[Holo_rip]

So, everybody agree that we need to focus on a list and talk about wich card should/shouldn't be include. I think that, overall darkalucard "core deck" is pretty much a good basic list, so here we go.



Lands: 22-23
3-4x Treetop/Monastary
1x Volrath
4-8x Fetch
Xx Dual
Xx Basics

i run 21 land. Due to the use of sakura tribe elder, i run 6 fetch, 4 dual (two bayou two savannah), and the reste of basic. It allow the work under a wastelock, or under bloodmoon effect. i run 5 foret, 3 swamp and 2 plains. also, i run a single stronghold, in the case i haven't found a witness.



Disruption: 4-10
4x Duress/Thought seize
0-4x Cabal Therapy / Hymn / Gerrard / Castigate
0-3x Extirpate


I think that 8 disruption is enought. Though i've tried 10 discard (4 duress/thoughtseize and 2 extirpate), it is to many time dead.
2 extirpate fit perfectly well to stop recursing things (life, creature, mishra's recursion), and a split of 3/3 dures/thoughtseize seem enought to allow a turn one discard.
A version with two more discard should be considered in a meta with many combo deck.



Utility: 6-8
4x Birds / Sakura / Veteran
2-4x Witness

i run 4 sakura. Veteran is too symetrical for me, and bird has bad synergie with deed.
3 witness is enought, you don't want one early game. you want one in mid-late game to recurse your bomb card.



Threats: 6-12
4x Goyf
3-4x Doran / Loxodon
2-4x Tombstalker / Troll / Etc


2 loxodon : great beater, good CIP effect, can protect from your deed or sometime opponent removal.
4 goyf : no question here. best creature ever. There's a reason why eveybody put it into their deck.



Removal: 12-16
4x Swords
4x Deed
4x Vidicate / Putrefy / Smother / Shriekmaw
1-3x Explosives / Punishment

4 STP : best removal ever.
3 vindicate : most versatil removal ever.
3 deed : best mass removal ever.
2 punishment : alternative to deed.
the split of deed/punishment seems weird, but it allow flexibility and avoid extirpate/MM tricks.



Card Advantage: 4-8
3-4x Living/Glittering Wish / Harmonize / LFTL / Survival
3x Sensei Diving Top

i personnally run 4 dark confidant as my main card avantage engine. It is a phyrexian arena that put opponent on a clock (though a low one). In order to avoid confidant life loose, i also run 3 SDT. It allow card quality with all your shuffling effect, and search for what you need now in the top 3 card of library.
Also, i run a single recuring nightmare. It is really amazing late game. It allow recuring life gain, reccuring STP/extirpate/deed, and recuring beater. Plus, just one doesn't hurt.


And yeah, i know, that's 61 card, but i can't think of what to cut to have 60 (and nono, i won't cut nightmare, it really can save you). This list seems also light in removal, but you run a pretty high number of sweeper, so i think it should be ok.

Just my though, what's yours ?

[idraleo]

So, everybody agree that we need to focus on a list and talk about wich card should/soulhdn't be include.

Wrong. What those thread needs is to be separed in 2 different threads, one for the aggroish and one for the controllish decklist, then probably the discussions could go on.

[Jak]

Why would you ever cast Goyf before Hymn in this case? Bait? I dont get it.

Example. Not really thinking about that, but more on casting threats and disruption. But, yes, you are right. Hymn and then Goyf is the better play.

[Holiday]

Creakwood Liege 1 (B/G)(B/G)(B/G)
Creature - Horror
Other black creatures you control get +1/+1.
Other green creatures you control get +1/+1.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may put a 1/1 black and green Worm creature token into play.
2/2

Pros:
3/3 Creature every turn
Pumps BoPs, Goyfs, Sakura, Treetop Village, etc.

Cons:
2/2 for 4
No Shroud/Protection/Regen

I'm not sure what I would want to cut for this guy.
Thoughts?

[HammafistRoob]

Looks pretty good, but it is TERRIBLE with deed. I'm not sure if it can work in here. Maybe if you run him and Bitterblossoms?

[idraleo]

If you got to go on comboish with BitterbLossom, Contamination fits ever better than this Liege...

[Nihlistdeathtrip]

Ithink it does have acore, but people like to play BGW or just BG. I think BGW is stronger due to swords, doran, and vindcate, but BG is more rockish wih a sturdy mana base..

Lets not forget, white is a recent addition to the rock. True "The Rock" is B/G:cool:

Im new to this forum, and i originally came here to check out what landstill101 was talking about in another thread, but after reading this i have to say something.

The rock is my favorite deck. Ive played it since it became popular when Phyrexian plaguelord was paired with deranged hermit, i played it through the Rec-Sur stage (because all in all, rec-sur was a rock deck with off color creatures), and ive played numerous builds in recent years. Im not saying im an expert and my word is gold-but i have a lot of experience with the archtype.

The thing that needs to be considered is the PURPOSE of the rock. The rock was designed to hit all fronts of the game field: disrupt the hand, kill the creatures, smash with fatties. Over time the cards have changed, but the theme still stays-deed/damnation for global wipe, smother/edict for spot removal, etc, etc. The sad thing is, that after 10+ years of The Rock decks,
there is no defined existential rock deck, But keeping this in mind, we CAN come up with a list of cards that belong in "The Rock", no matter what build, colors, etc. In my humble opinion, they are:
Pernicious Deed
Ravenous Baloth
Tarmogoyf
Eternal Witness
Thoughtsieze
Durress/Cabal therepy/Hymn To Tourach

Now before i get lynched, let me justify why a lot of "staple cards" were'nt in my list, obviously troll ascetic is good-but he doesnt fit every deck. Vindicate and Heirarch are also bombs, but where every rock doesnt run white, its a fair assumption to say all rock decks play B/G. I didnt list sinkhole or wastelands Because there are plenty of rock decks that are successfull without having land disruption. So if there is a card you see that is not listed, dont be offended or upset.

I think ive rambled on long enough. But i couldnt possibly go with out showing MY decklist-applying some of the principals ive already mentioned:

The Gru-beRock
Lands:
4 bayou
2 overgrown tomb
3 cabal pit
3 treetop village
4 wasteland
2 swamp
2 forest
1 volraths stronghold

Spells:
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Damnation
4 smother
3 Life from the loam
4 thoughtsieze
3 durress
4 hymn to tourach
3 extirpate

Creatures:
4 Tarmogoyf
2 ravenous Baloth
3 Eternal witness
4 Fulminator mage

SB:
2 choke
2 deathmark
2 darkheart sliver
3 e.plague
3 k.grip
3 p.needles

A few notes- obviously i built this version of the rock around the loam engine, which helps with the rocks uncanny ability to run out of gas midgame(loam gets creatures, creature removal, or land-d, or stronghold). Because of the loam obviously the deck has the potential to waste lock the opponent-which is an added bonus. I added the fulminator mages in sinkhole slots because in our meta(and most of 1.5) non-basics are running rampant and the extra body helps survive against faster decks while making the deck more aggresssive overall(please dont bash me on this choice, i have discussed it at great lengths with my peers in the card shop and have weighed all the pro's and cons)

*a note about darkheart sliver-agressive rock players PUT HIM IN THE MAIN: he is amazing. 2mana 2/2 that blocks against aggro, goes on the swing, and gains life to boot. The little baloth is aggro's worst nightmare(me being a control rock put him in the side)

choke...nuff said


...im running out of gas, i think ive said all thats worth saying. Thanks for listening to my rant!:smile:

[landstill101]

Lets not forget, white is a recent addition to the rock. True "The Rock" is B/G:cool:

Im new to this forum, and i originally came here to check out what landstill101 was talking about in another thread, but after reading this i have to say something.

The rock is my favorite deck. Ive played it since it became popular when Phyrexian plaguelord was paired with deranged hermit, i played it through the Rec-Sur stage (because all in all, rec-sur was a rock deck with off color creatures), and ive played numerous builds in recent years. Im not saying im an expert and my word is gold-but i have a lot of experience with the archtype.

The thing that needs to be considered is the PURPOSE of the rock. The rock was designed to hit all fronts of the game field: disrupt the hand, kill the creatures, smash with fatties. Over time the cards have changed, but the theme still stays-deed/damnation for global wipe, smother/edict for spot removal, etc, etc. The sad thing is, that after 10+ years of The Rock decks,
there is no defined existential rock deck, But keeping this in mind, we CAN come up with a list of cards that belong in "The Rock", no matter what build, colors, etc. In my humble opinion, they are:
Pernicious Deed
Ravenous Baloth
Tarmogoyf
Eternal Witness
Thoughtsieze
Durress/Cabal therepy/Hymn To Tourach

Now before i get lynched, let me justify why a lot of "staple cards" were'nt in my list, obviously troll ascetic is good-but he doesnt fit every deck. Vindicate and Heirarch are also bombs, but where every rock doesnt run white, its a fair assumption to say all rock decks play B/G. I didnt list sinkhole or wastelands Because there are plenty of rock decks that are successfull without having land disruption. So if there is a card you see that is not listed, dont be offended or upset.

I think ive rambled on long enough. But i couldnt possibly go with out showing MY decklist-applying some of the principals ive already mentioned:

The Gru-beRock
Lands:
4 bayou
2 overgrown tomb
3 cabal pit
3 treetop village
4 wasteland
2 swamp
2 forest
1 volraths stronghold

Spells:
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Damnation
4 smother
3 Life from the loam
4 thoughtsieze
3 durress
4 hymn to tourach
3 extirpate

Creatures:
4 Tarmogoyf
2 ravenous Baloth
3 Eternal witness
4 Fulminator mage

SB:
2 choke
2 deathmark
2 darkheart sliver
3 e.plague
3 k.grip
3 p.needles

A few notes- obviously i built this version of the rock around the loam engine, which helps with the rocks uncanny ability to run out of gas midgame(loam gets creatures, creature removal, or land-d, or stronghold). Because of the loam obviously the deck has the potential to waste lock the opponent-which is an added bonus. I added the fulminator mages in sinkhole slots because in our meta(and most of 1.5) non-basics are running rampant and the extra body helps survive against faster decks while making the deck more aggresssive overall(please dont bash me on this choice, i have discussed it at great lengths with my peers in the card shop and have weighed all the pro's and cons)

*a note about darkheart sliver-agressive rock players PUT HIM IN THE MAIN: he is amazing. 2mana 2/2 that blocks against aggro, goes on the swing, and gains life to boot. The little baloth is aggro's worst nightmare(me being a control rock put him in the side)

choke...nuff said


...im running out of gas, i think ive said all thats worth saying. Thanks for listening to my rant!:smile:

As a person who has played The Gru-beRock and have played against it many of times and against many other versions I have found this version to be very very powerful and impossible to beat with my landstill deck:cry: and because of this, I have actually changed decks because this version is soo strong. Really what makes the deck powerful is the recursion, it really helps with the burn out of the deck.

[Waikiki]

since you play lftl you will get more cards in your grave then usual. Did you ever try out tombstalker? He's a great beater!

[TheLion]

I wonder why there are no fetchlands in your list!? Is there a specific reason? Or only because you dont need shuffle effects?
And what you are gonna to recur with Loam? Only Wasteland and Cabal Pit? Is this enough?

[YuanTi]

But keeping this in mind, we CAN come up with a list of cards that belong in "The Rock", no matter what build, colors, etc. In my humble opinion, they are:
Pernicious Deed
Ravenous Baloth
Tarmogoyf
Eternal Witness
Thoughtsieze
Durress/Cabal therepy/Hymn To Tourach

Interesting list. I'm surprised at Ravenous Baloth, because with the printing of newer and more efficient fatties, Baloth is seeing less play. If you're running White, Loxodon Hierarch is far better than Ravenous Baloth, even if you aren't, Baloth dies to a Tarmogoyf, and can only block once. Ascetic, while smaller, keeps Tarmogoyf at bay forever and longer, and cannot be removed apart from by Mass Removal. If you want BG Lifegain, Kitchen Finks and Darkheart Sliver both fill that slot, at a cheaper price, and Finks recurs itself, which is very advantageous.

[idraleo]

This thread is absolutely pointless, on each new page someone starts to talk on a different SPERIMENTAL building, the discussion is regressing instead of growing up. There' s no way to saw this thread splitted as i ask some page before into different threads?

[TheLion]

This thread is absolutely pointless, on each new page someone starts to talk on a different SPERIMENTAL building, the discussion is regressing instead of growing up. There' s no way to saw this thread splitted as i ask some page before into different threads?

Maybe this is because there is nothing really to discuss. Nobody can say, if Duress is better than Hymn or vice versa. Or if Smother is better than Edict (or v.v.). It seems that this is just personal preference or a meta decision.

For me the only real core is Deed. I even play Blastoderm in the 4cc slot.

[YuanTi]

This thread is absolutely pointless, on each new page someone starts to talk on a different SPERIMENTAL building, the discussion is regressing instead of growing up. There' s no way to saw this thread splitted as i ask some page before into different threads?

Perhaps rather than repeating this twice on every page, you should be the change that you want to see?

[Majestyk1136]

This thread really has lost its way I'm afraid. Back when I still played Legacy in the dark days before the format received any love whatsoever. I wrote a primer back in the day when I played the b/g only version and if you guys want me to rewrite that primer I will. It may not be exhaustive but it will be the compendium of my experience with the deck.

The version my Friend (Conley Woods) went 4-1 with at worlds for reference:

3 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Forest
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
3 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windswept Heath
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Eternal Witness
4 Loxodon Hierarch
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Crime // Punishment
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize

SB:
4 Extirpate
4 Infest
2 Karmic Justice
4 Krosan Grip
1 Thoughtseize

This was what we came up with after long, hard testing against the metagame at that point. Certainly there are opportunities to improve upon this design for a given metagame, but I find that there are few opportunities to do so where you actually improve upon the efficiency of any given card for what it does.

If people want a primer, I can do that but it may take a while to write properly.

[idraleo]

Perhaps rather than repeating this twice on every page, you should be the change that you want to see?


First of all, to see the thread splitted for the aggro-rock versions and the most controllish version. It is necessary because the decks have different approach to the game, plays different cards and did different results on tournament. Then, after the threads will be splitted, it will be good if we start from new primers to talk on decklists that did well in something more that a 15 people tournament top8 ^^''

[Nihlistdeathtrip]

I wonder why there are no fetchlands in your list!? Is there a specific reason? Or only because you dont need shuffle effects?
And what you are gonna to recur with Loam? Only Wasteland and Cabal Pit? Is this enough?

there are no fetchlands because between the treetops, wastelands, cabal pits and bayous there werent enough slots to justify fetchlands, hence running bad rav duels. Dont forget loam also gets creatures(treetops) and stronghold


Interesting list. I'm surprised at Ravenous Baloth, because with the printing of newer and more efficient fatties, Baloth is seeing less play. If you're running White, Loxodon Hierarch is far better than Ravenous Baloth, even if you aren't, Baloth dies to a Tarmogoyf, and can only block once. Ascetic, while smaller, keeps Tarmogoyf at bay forever and longer, and cannot be removed apart from by Mass Removal. If you want BG Lifegain, Kitchen Finks and Darkheart Sliver both fill that slot, at a cheaper price, and Finks recurs itself, which is very advantageous.

on my original post i justify not including heirarch in my list. Heirarch, being white, can only go in WHITE splash version of the rocks, where its assumed that baloth can go into any(if hes wanted). But the reasons i include baloth are:
1. 4 mana casting cost. gets around counterbalance and avoids the everpopular smother.
2. recursion with stronghold
3. He house's aggro all day.

couple other points to make:
i understand that ascetic is good. REALLY good. but if you play him justifying it with repetative goyf blocks, is it worth it? Last i checked this was The Rock, a deck whose forte is the destruction of creatures-as far as them removing my creatures, its not something im too concerned with. I have stronghold(which is all too easy to find w/loam) and repetative blocks with treetops. Dont forget i run cabal pit, which is an amazing combat trick. Goyf swings, baloth(or my gofy) blocks-pit enemy gofy down=opponent poops. its such a little used card NOBODY sees it comming till its too late

[YuanTi]

First of all, to see the thread splitted for the aggro-rock versions and the most controllish version. It is necessary because the decks have different approach to the game, plays different cards and did different results on tournament. Then, after the threads will be splitted, it will be good if we start from new primers to talk on decklists that did well in something more that a 15 people tournament top8 ^^''

Does talking about it in here split the thread?

I haven't seen it do so thus far.

[slyfer]

I agree with idraleo.
The same thing was done for landstill thread, it was split because some people used the UW or minisplash, other with 4colors. The two versions are pretty similar to me (wrath for deed), instead aggro-rock and control-rock is completely another story.
It seems that both are successfull.
The aggro version could go BG with ascetic troll and jitte (or the like), but I think the control should be BGW.

[EnVy(0.o)ChAmP]

Hey guys,

I am new to this board but have been playing MTG and The Rock for ages. I will be playing in the Legacy tournaments out at Nationals. I am posting here because I have only played a handful of Legacy events and need some help to gear the deck to success. I have been reading up on things and I expect this to be the metagame for nats:

Landstill Variants
Threshold Variants
Aggro Loam
Goblins
Ichorid
Some MUC
Some Enchantress
Some New Version of Faries

With that in mind I will be talking about it later for my sideboard choices. Below is my decklist and granted it is not the most common build but I do believe it is solid due to being very synergetic. Here is my list:

(Organized by Mana Cost)

Main (39)
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Duress
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Dark Confidant
2x Wall of Blossoms
3x Vindicate
3x Doran, the Siege Tower
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Yavimaya Elder
2x Armadillo Cloak
1x Eternal Witness
1x Recurring Nightmare
3x Loxodon Hierarch
1x Spiritmonger
1x Haunting Echoes

Lands (21)
4x Bayou
2x Savannah
2x Scrubland
2x Treetop Village
4x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains
1x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Windswept Heath

Comments
I know the first thing everyone is thinking.......where are the Tarmogoyfs? Well I honestly believe the deck runs well without them and having goyf mirrors all day is a tad bit boring. Also the point of Rock is to have cards that are all about card advantage and goyf really does not do that. He just creates a threat.

Also my reasoning for running Yavimaya Elder vs Sakura Tribe Elder is that he works great for card advantage and works with Therapy/Recurring Nightmare and often times is a cantrip in itself. Also Eternal Witness is better as a late game card rather than an early one. That is the reason why I am not running 3+ Witness.

Now there are some problems to the deck and here they are:

Too many 3 drops
Too few 2 drops
Mana base needs fixing, sometimes color screwed, sometimes not enough lands. I need either a green or black turn 1 every game.


I am also having some card slot issues. Cards have their advantages and disadvantages and I can't decide on what I want to run:


Genesis vs. Spiritmonger
Genesis vs. Recurring Nightmare
Wall of Blossoms vs. Spectral Lynx


Spectral Lynx I think is a great metagame choice due to it being pro green and able to block goyfs all day. However WoB is card advantage and goes great with Doran. Genesis vs Recurring Nightmare is a toss up to me. Recurring Nightmare works great mid game to get all of your come into play / exit play abilities to work (ie. Elder, WoB, Hierarch, Witness) but vs control, it is easily countered. Genesis seems good if it dies safely but I fear that it will be a farmer target rather than just going to the yard. However I feel if it does make it to the graveyard, it is a big issue for Landstill/MUC to deal with.

For one thing I feel that if I add 2x Llanowar Elves to the deck it solves the issue of having too many 3 drops and no 2 drops, since that is what I used to do in extended. I also think I should take out 1 of the treetops and add a fetchland.

Anyways recall my prediction for the metagame.


Landstill Variants
Threshold Variants
Aggro Loam
Goblins
Ichorid
Some MUC
Some Enchantress
Some New Version of Faries

Here is my sideboard:
Sideboard
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Engineered Plague
2x Smother
2x City of Solitude
3x Thoughtsieze
1x Pernicious Deed

Sideboard Strategies:
Vs Landstill / MUC
2x City of Solitude / 3x Thoughtsieze

Vs Goblins
3x Engineered Plague

Vs Threshold Variants / Loam Decks / Survival Decks
2x Smother / 4x Leylines

Vs Ichorid
4x Leylines / Maybe Engineered Plagues

Vs Enchantress
1x Deed

Vs Dragon Stompy
No idea.....rogue deck imo probably won't see any.

Anyways I want to get this as prepped as possible so I can do very decent at nats. I am very open to opinions.

**Edit** Oh and someone please tell me why EVERYONE runs Krosan Grip on their sideboard? It doesn't do anything to Standstill and the only thing I can think of is to kill another deed or to crucibles, which doesn't seem like a valid reason for everyone running it.

[EnVy(0.o)ChAmP]

If people want a primer, I can do that but it may take a while to write properly.

Yes do so b4 nats plz :D

[Nihil Credo]

3x Doran, the Siege Tower

I know the first thing everyone is thinking.......where are the Tarmogoyfs?
Also the point of Rock is to have cards that are all about card advantage and **** really does not do that. He just creates a threat.

Too many 3 drops
Too few 2 drops
Mana base needs fixing

[Shtriga]

Nihil makes a good point.

would kitchen finks be a good creature to fit in?

[landstill101]

Nihil makes a good point.

would kitchen finks be a good creature to fit in?

Kitchen finks is not as good because he only gains 2 life and must be destroyed for gain the other 2, yea he comes back as another blocker, but that is worthless to a swords or if they burn you to the dome. Kitchen finks has to many other requirements for the 4 life, you might as well take another turn and get heriarch or baloth to get the 4 life and their a bigger blocker.

[Shtriga]

just because he is a little bit of card advantage (except if they swords it). but hierarch might be better indeed

[TheLion]

just because he is a little bit of card advantage (except if they swords it). but hierarch might be better indeed

vs.



Also the point of Rock is to have cards that are all about card advantage and **** really does not do that. He just creates a threat.


lol...

[EnVy(0.o)ChAmP]

noone really responded to my question as to why everyone runs krosan grip on their board......what is so prevelant that everyone needs the hate? What is it that Vindicate and Deed wont kill?

[Citrus-God]

noone really responded to my question as to why everyone runs krosan grip on their board......what is so prevelant that everyone needs the hate? What is it that Vindicate and Deed wont kill?

It's the Fear. They have 4 Intuitions, 1 Shackles, 1 Witness, and 3 Deeds. That's 9 3cc cards which they will use to keep you from playing Magic.

[EnVy(0.o)ChAmP]

so just bc of counterbalance and deed?

[Illissius]

Krosan Grip kills:

Counterbalance
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Humility
Moat
Vedalken Shackles
Chalice of the Void
Painter's Servant
Pithing Needle
Pernicious Deed
Survival of the Fittest
Umezawa's Jitte
Solitary Confinement

I'm sure there's more. And the important bit is they can't do a thing about it. Even if you have other ways of dealing with them, Krosan Grip is a bomb worth having.

[Red Viper]

Just out of curiousity, what's the infatuation with Doran? Sure he is big and usually makes the team bigger but that's it. Turn 2 Doran off a Birds of Paradise is a good clock but it doesn't do much else.

What matchups are you guys finding him to be strong in?

[EnVy(0.o)ChAmP]

well he makes goblin piledriver look like a fool for one.

[Roman Candle]

What matchups are you guys finding him to be strong in?

The ones where a turn two 5/5 is relevant... so, most of them.

[hugh1130]

The ones where a turn two 5/5 is relevant... so, most of them.

more relevant then a turn 2 4/5?

[raharu]

Tarmogoyf: he's still suspect to constructed decubuilding rules (i.e. you can't run more than four in a deck). :laugh:.

[EnVy(0.o)ChAmP]

so since counterbalance is such a common card in the field...why not main deck something that would get rid of it. IE like a Viridian Zealot or a Crime/Punishment.

[Jak]

so since counterbalance is such a common card in the field...why not main deck something that would get rid of it. IE like a Viridian Zealot or a Crime/Punishment.

Like Deed!?!?!

[EnVy(0.o)ChAmP]

Deed and Vindicate are the only two ways to deal with it in the deck. Decks like MUC have MULTIPLE 3cc spells to counter all of that. So if they drop turn 1 top turn 2 counterbalance...................there is a good possibility you won't have anything to do for much of the game.

[slyfer]

You normally have 7 discard effect so it's not a problem CB.
MUC is favorable match up, turn one discard, turn 2 confidant it's almost over.

[Holiday]

I am looking to develop a BG version that focuses primarily on card advantage.

Before I attempt to put together a list I want to brainstorm the cards that will be most effective in basic area of card advantage:

Drawing cards:
Dark Confidant
If I have confidant I also want to run 3 Sensei's top.
The other cards that go along with Top are shuffle effects like fecthlands and Sakura to provide card quality as well.

Harmonize
This may be dangerous to run with Confidant. I don't think I would run both, but I have run this card in the past in a deck without Bob. With some mana acceration it worked nicely.

Lands:
Veteran Explorer
I plan on running a good amount of basics in the BG Rock. However, this card only really would provide card advantage if the opponent is running few basics.
Nice against many Thresh builds and Combo decks.
Not so great against Landstill, Goblins, any Mono-X-Whatever.

Yavimaya Elder
Could provide a ton of card advantage. Yet at GG1, is most likely too slow for this format.

Discard:
Hymn to Tourach
Obviously, this 2 for 1 is great for card advantage and I think this is an auto include.

Cabal Therapy
I like the symetry it has with Veteran Explorer and provides an outlet for killing Bob if you need to. While it may miss an get nothing, the flashback and potential to get a 2 (or more) for 1 means it must be considered.

Removal:
Pernicious Deed
Engineered Explosives
No explanation needed.

Engineered Plague (SB)
I've actually cast this more on Merfolk, Faeries, and Elves lately, than Goblins...

Creatures:
I am having a tough time coming up with creatures for this deck. Obviously I'm going to run 4 Goyfs. I'm not sure how high a CMC I want to go if I'm running Bob, but I've seen people run Bob and Tombstalker in the same deck successfully.

Creakwood Liege
This is the new one from Eventide. I am including him here because he does provide card advantage by making a 3/3 token every turn. However, I just don't like this guy in the same deck as Deed.

That is all I can think of and I am looking for some suggestions.

[lavafrogg]

For sick card advantage you have to have eternal witness and unearth... this keeps you CMC down below three to maximise effectiveness and its just sick:)

Also kitchen finks is some good and so is small pox if you use it correctly.

[HammafistRoob]

I really think Bitterblossom belongs in some Legacy deck out there. I think it might be this one.

Here's my shot at Blossom Rock-

//Lands-21
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Volrath's Stronghold

//Spells-15
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate

//Dudes-19
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Eternal Witness
2 Loxdon Heirarch
2 Kitchen Finks

//Non-Creature Permanents-5
3 Bitterblossom
2 Umezawa's Jitte


//Side-15
4 Extirpate
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Krosan Grip
3 Duress
2 Pithing Needle

I like how I have a bunch of lifegain to complement the hefty lifeloss. I might try this out in Hadley this Saturday, but I doubt it.

[Galroth]

That - Looks like a solid list.

The only worry is removing all of your little faeries with your own wipes (but you've Deed anyways). They take time to build up, so there is a little more disynergy there that with most of your other permanents. However, I think the benefits will probably outweight the detriments of potentially losing out your 1/1 army. Afterall, if your little army is wittling down the opponent, there is no need to wipe.

[thefreakaccident]

He has his deeds in the board.... which means it will not wipe them preboard...


I like the build, it seems solid.

[HammafistRoob]

I'll be playing it in Hadley as long as I can find some Savannah's(at least 2). And the damn Elephants <3.

[I'm a TROLL]

I really think Bitterblossom belongs in some Legacy deck out there. I think it might be this one.

Here's my shot at Blossom Rock-

//Lands-21
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Volrath's Stronghold

//Spells-15
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate

//Dudes-19
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Eternal Witness
2 Loxdon Heirarch
2 Kitchen Finks

//Non-Creature Permanents-5
3 Bitterblossom
2 Umezawa's Jitte


//Side-15
4 Extirpate
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Krosan Grip
3 Duress
2 Pithing Needle

I like how I have a bunch of lifegain to complement the hefty lifeloss. I might try this out in Hadley this Saturday, but I doubt it.

Kitchen Finks is amazing in this format and the hierarch lifegain really helps. This deck could really benefit from Troll Ascetic and Harmonize though.

Troll Ascetic is just obviously amazing against thresholds and goblins, but you yall should really consider Harmonize. I play 3. Dark confident dies too easily - like everytime I cast it - so i never see his benefit plus he is a bad chump blocker. With Harmonize you have an amazing card to crack a Standstill with as they get 3 cards and you get 3 cards. Sounds arwfully fair to me!

[HammafistRoob]

Except for the fact that
a) They will counter you Harmonize in alot of situations
and b) You will most likely be tapping down most(if not all) of your lands to cast a spell wich isnt going to resolve anyways.

[Rood]

I have to agree with Rob, Harmonize isn't necessary in his list. It's good sometimes but a majority of the time you'll just wish it was something else.

[thefreakaccident]

I do not think you really need witness, it is good, but all you really need is to recur creatures, which is possible through stronghold... also, I would want to get another finks in there, you are fine for lifegain already (jit, finks/lox)... but he is really good against agro, and especially good with therapy...


I would not like troll, mainly because it sucks balls, and costs way too much mana to be good any more.


Overall good list... it is funny though, that us two in specific seem to come to such similar conclusions when constructing decks.


EDIT: This is what I was talking about...

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=257634&postcount=244

[I'm a TROLL]

Except for the fact that
a) They will counter you Harmonize in alot of situations
and b) You will most likely be tapping down most(if not all) of your lands to cast a spell wich isnt going to resolve anyways.

So just cast thoughtskeize, durress, or cabal threapy. problem solved!

[Kevdog]

Many people are forgetting that the rock's power came in its' abundance of near guaranteed X for 1's (of which they chose at least 3 of the following: Wall of Blossoms Yavimaya Elder Yavimaya Granger Deranged Hermit Phyrexian Rager Phyrexian Plaguelord and later Phyrexian Arena Gerrard's Verdict) and Pernicious Deed. The deck was called "The Rock and his minions" because of Phyrexian Plaguelord which evolved into Spiritmonger and used small critters to speed it up (birds, llanowar elves, wall of roots), others to slow the beats (spike weaver and/or feeder), the bomb (plaguelord hermit or monger) followed or preceded by a board clearing deed if needed. In a format defined by creature removal, people are changing the second best card advantage source in the deck that was hard to get rid of (phyrexian arena) into a creature (dark confidant), cutting the 2 for 1's left and right, and some are moving it to a deck that blows EVERYTHING they own away with their own deeds (which are then migrating to the board at an alarming rate). Deed+troll/monger=synergy, deed+goyf+confidant=conflict. Most of those degenerate to discard+goyf+confidant with the white inclusion bringing vindicate and swords... more one for ones. Confidant and Witness then become the sole sources of EXPLICIT card advantage and become surrounded by too much discard, a ton of one-for-ones, and critters that have one special ability, tap to attack (doran, tarmogoyf). It has become an unspoken truth that the deck NEEDS the efficiency of regeneration in the form of Troll Ascetic and/or Spiritmonger. If I see another deck that calls itself the rock and blows its whole support team AND threats away with deed (or the lack of deeds), I am going to cry at the death of an awesome deck.

[I'm a TROLL]

Many people are forgetting that the rock's power came in its' abundance of near guaranteed X for 1's (of which they chose at least 3 of the following: Wall of Blossoms Yavimaya Elder Yavimaya Granger Deranged Hermit Phyrexian Rager Phyrexian Plaguelord and later Phyrexian Arena Gerrard's Verdict) and Pernicious Deed. The deck was called "The Rock and his minions" because of Phyrexian Plaguelord which evolved into Spiritmonger and used small critters to speed it up (birds, llanowar elves, wall of roots), others to slow the beats (spike weaver and/or feeder), the bomb (plaguelord hermit or monger) followed or preceded by a board clearing deed if needed. In a format defined by creature removal, people are changing the second best card advantage source in the deck that was hard to get rid of (phyrexian arena) into a creature (dark confidant), cutting the 2 for 1's left and right, and some are moving it to a deck that blows EVERYTHING they own away with their own deeds (which are then migrating to the board at an alarming rate). Deed+troll/monger=synergy, deed+goyf+confidant=conflict. Most of those degenerate to discard+goyf+confidant with the white inclusion bringing vindicate and swords... more one for ones. Confidant and Witness then become the sole sources of EXPLICIT card advantage and become surrounded by too much discard, a ton of one-for-ones, and critters that have one special ability, tap to attack (doran, tarmogoyf). It has become an unspoken truth that the deck NEEDS the efficiency of regeneration in the form of Troll Ascetic and/or Spiritmonger. If I see another deck that calls itself the rock and blows its whole support team AND threats away with deed (or the lack of deeds), I am going to cry at the death of an awesome deck.


Yeah, makes sense. Sucks to have to state the obvious but this is so true.

[thefreakaccident]

Its natural evolution though, because the decks nowadays only need a few non-land permanents on board to win the game... just look at threshold now, it only runs between 8 and 10 creature cards, meaning a sweeper is only going to hit 1-2 creatures max... the deck has had to evolve just like every other deck in the format, just because it is lacking some of its' previous CA possibilities, doesn't mean that it doesn't have to happen.


CA cards like wall of blossoms just suck nowadays, as an 0/4 is not going to stop a 4/5 goyf, at best it cantrips and buys you a turn... that's the most you can hope for it to do...


Also, cards like troll and arena are just too slow, and unreliable to even try to compete in today's environment.


All in all, The rock has to evolve just like every other deck has had to, or it will be unplayable/undesireable... end of story.

[rancOr_]

This is my current decklist and after various changes/testing/tournaments,this seems the best one.
I've played the version with nantuko shade and then doran,but since I played Tombstalker I dont want to change anymore.
Anyway here is my decklist:

BWG Rock

4x Windswept Heath
2x Polluted Delta
2x Bloodstained Mire
3x Bayou
3x Scrubland
3x Wasteland
3x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains

4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Jotun Grunt
2x Tombstalker

3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Engineered Explosives

4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Extirpate
4x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard:
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Krosan Grip
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Extirpate
3x Duress
2x Smother
2x Circle of Protection:Red

Any thoughts ,ideas or maybe tips for the sideboard?

[Waikiki]

The list looks very strong for an aggro/control rock list.

I've recently been toying arround with my Control Rock lists.

I've been making some succes with the first BG Death Cloud List.
Giving me a top 8 small event (25people)

// Lands
4 [A] Bayou
3 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
5 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
3 [10E] Treetop Village

// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
4 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [ON] Ravenous Baloth
2 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [DS] Death Cloud
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [RAV] Putrefy

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ON] Ravenous Baloth
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [US] Duress
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
SB: 3 [TE] Choke

The Deck wins with accelerating into Garruk following up with a Death Cloud. Which usually means gg.
Also alot of decks allready scoop when they find out the garruk tokens each give me 4 life.

The other list im currently developping uses gift. It uses a few gift piles and the explorer plan to accelerate.


// Lands
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [IA] Snow-Covered Swamp
3 [IA] Snow-Covered Forest
1 [IA] Snow-Covered Island
3 [B] Bayou
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [B] Tropical Island

// Creatures
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [JU] Wonder
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [ON] Gigapede
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
2 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
3 [CHK] Gifts Ungiven
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [TO] Chainer's Edict
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
1 [B] Regrowth
1 [PLC] Damnation

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [US] Duress
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
SB: 3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks

[TheLion]

Many people are forgetting that the rock's power came in its' abundance of near guaranteed X for 1's (of which they chose at least 3 of the following: Wall of Blossoms Yavimaya Elder Yavimaya Granger Deranged Hermit Phyrexian Rager Phyrexian Plaguelord and later Phyrexian Arena Gerrard's Verdict) and Pernicious Deed. The deck was called "The Rock and his minions" because of Phyrexian Plaguelord which evolved into Spiritmonger and used small critters to speed it up (birds, llanowar elves, wall of roots), others to slow the beats (spike weaver and/or feeder), the bomb (plaguelord hermit or monger) followed or preceded by a board clearing deed if needed. In a format defined by creature removal, people are changing the second best card advantage source in the deck that was hard to get rid of (phyrexian arena) into a creature (dark confidant), cutting the 2 for 1's left and right, and some are moving it to a deck that blows EVERYTHING they own away with their own deeds (which are then migrating to the board at an alarming rate). Deed+troll/monger=synergy, deed+goyf+confidant=conflict. Most of those degenerate to discard+goyf+confidant with the white inclusion bringing vindicate and swords... more one for ones. Confidant and Witness then become the sole sources of EXPLICIT card advantage and become surrounded by too much discard, a ton of one-for-ones, and critters that have one special ability, tap to attack (doran, tarmogoyf). It has become an unspoken truth that the deck NEEDS the efficiency of regeneration in the form of Troll Ascetic and/or Spiritmonger. If I see another deck that calls itself the rock and blows its whole support team AND threats away with deed (or the lack of deeds), I am going to cry at the death of an awesome deck.

Nice post! QFT!

I dont understand, why people playing Finks, argue that Troll is too bad because he costs to much mana. :confused:
IMO: untargetabilty + regeneration > gaining 2-4 life.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Tarmogoyf Advantage trumps Card Advantage every time. Generaly speaking, the player that draws, resolves, and keeps the most Tarmogoyfs tends to win.

[TheLion]

Generaly speaking, the player that draws, resolves, and keeps the most Tarmogoyfs tends to win.

<irony>How interesting. I can't believe Magic has become such a diversified game.</irony>

[Dxfiler]

Hello. This is your friendly neighboorhood Feinstein <3

I've been testing Rock alot and after alot of testing/tweaks this is the version I'm most happy with as of right now:


// Lands
1 [IA] Plains
3 [B] Savannah
4 [U] Bayou
4 [U] Scrubland
1 [10E] Swamp
2 [DM] Forest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Birds of Paradise
4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
2 [FNM] Eternal Witness
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [LRW] Doran, the Siege Tower

// Spells
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
2 [FNM] Duress
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [JGC] Vindicate

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FNM] Duress
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [JGC] Pernicious Deed

It still needs a little work, but I geared it towards aggressive decks since those have been everywhere lately and doing seemingly better than ever. Finks heads off alot of aggro strategies (burn/fish/thresh with mongoose) and stalls very well against the fattier versions (goyf).

It has a pretty good game against combo and counterbalance control game 1 also. The varied costs in drops and threats usually keeps counterbalance on its toes.

Graveyard based decks are the biggest problem game 1, particularly Ichorid. Not alot I could do about that other than maindeck extirpate, but I don't think it's good enough on the whole and Ichorid isn't too bad post board.

Still tweaking the mana base. I'm working on including more basics. Recently cut a Savannah for another forest. I may add another basic swamp at some point.

The deck is not that far off from something survival based, but with Krosan Grip and Pithing Needle flying around everywhere I just felt less dependant on certain cards with this deck.

Other than Ichorid there's no match in the format of the major decks that I fear when I run this. Everything is pretty close to even. Conversely, there's no deck that's really an auto-win for this either, but careful playing usually gives this deck the edge more often than not.

Not walking into stifle is the biggest thing. I see rock players do it all the time. Stop doing it :p

The board needs more work than the main imo. I like everything but the jittes, but burn scares me. Goblins is a scary match too, hence the deeds. Come to think of it I might be on the mull to plow plan vs. goblins, but that match needs more testing. I think if I control lackey it's a pretty good match, particularly when deed comes in.

That's really it for now. Any thoughts are always welcome. It's time to go because my Feinstein-sense is tingling... something about bed :laugh:

- Dave

[Waikiki]

I'd play therapy over duress with 4 finks and witness synergy

[Dxfiler]

I'd play therapy over duress with 4 finks and witness synergy

It's something I've considered heavily.

The issue with Therapy is that the format is SO wide open right now it's ridiculous, hence you're going to miss alot more then you hit with it. Even if you know what you're up against the amount of threats you face in every deck is just so dense that I'd rather get a guaranteed hit with duress right now.

At one point Therapy was in the main, then got moved to board, and currently phased out completely but it could move back in possibly. If it came back I'd lean towards it being in the board since my odds to accurately hit go significantly up once I know exactly what I'm up against.

Therapy is a little better than Duress against Combo and Goblins, otherwise I put them close to even in most other matches. It really comes down to getting a guaranteed hit where you just don't have that with Therapy. Granted if you're out to nab a creature than Therapy has a shot where Duress has none, but Therapy isn't really there for creatures. You already have Thoughtseize for that. Therapy is additional ammo that's usually only required against combo, and since Combo isn't quite as prevalent as it's been in the past I'm ok with using Duress over it.

If combo gets back on the rise then Therapy makes alot of sense. I like Therapy I just don't think it's as practical as Duress given the meta right now.

- Dave

[Nihil Credo]

If I recall correct, you live and play in the US North-East. That would make the anti-Therapy argument significantly weaker, since that one is a pretty well-developed / stagnant (your choice) metagame.

Also, I'd strongly considered Extirpate over Leyline of the Void in the sideboard. I don't find it reliable as an anti-Ichorid tool in any deck without either Force of Will or Dark Ritual.

Also, do you often sideboard in all 4x Pernicious Deed? It's just a feeling, but I suspect sometimes you might find yourself pining for a mix of Deed and Explosives.

[Waikiki]

imo extirpate is pretty weak agains ichorid. I've seen ichorid still win through 2 pate's. im always a fan of jailer (in decks who can protect him). Together with E plague on horror or illusion.

[Nihil Credo]

That's great against Ichorid, just more narrow since it doesn't double up against stuff like Survival, combo or Landstill (and sucks when you also want to bring in sweepers).

Also, it's a bit of a bummer that it turns off Kitchen Finks' Persist (and Therapy flashback, if one does switch to that).

[SuckerPunch]

Dxfiler, I like your list. However, I personally hold the belief that Tombstalker>>Dark Confidant.

You losing 3 life and drawing a card each turn << Your opponent losing 5 life every turn.

I also think that Reanimate deserves a look. It's a fantastic card, esp when you consider that 2 of your key ways to deal with creatures is 4 Vindicate and 4 Thoughtseize.

[landstill101]

Dxfiler, I like your list. However, I personally hold the belief that Tombstalker>>Dark Confidant.

You losing 3 life and drawing a card each turn << Your opponent losing 5 life every turn.

I also think that Reanimate deserves a look. It's a fantastic card, esp when you consider that 2 of your key ways to deal with creatures is 4 Vindicate and 4 Thoughtseize.

Off the Thought of this, I don't really don't have much of an opinion on which one is better between bob or stalker,(mainly because both are great, it just matters on what kind of playstyle you are.) but both together is a horrible idea, whats the point of playing a bob and getting a tombstalker to lose eight life in the early game and might not be able to even play it. Tombstalker is a late game card especially without dark rit, and drawing it with bob most of the time will kill you. I like both options but you deffinitly have to choose one or the other.

[Dxfiler]

If I recall correct, you live and play in the US North-East. That would make the anti-Therapy argument significantly weaker, since that one is a pretty well-developed / stagnant (your choice) metagame.

Yes, I live in the north-east... where almost every top 8 is still at least 5-6 different decks.

Just because the metagame is established doesn't mean it isn't varied. Legacy is the only format (and I play them all) where you could literally face ANYTHING during any round. That was why I was mainly against Therapy. As I said, it's still a great card. I just don't think it's as practical as Duress right now.



Also, I'd strongly considered Extirpate over Leyline of the Void in the sideboard. I don't find it reliable as an anti-Ichorid tool in any deck without either Force of Will or Dark Ritual.

Extirpate is less narrow and does not shut off finks, but Ichorid is such a horrid match that you need a specialized card for it. You can't just play the best sideboard card game with them. Every other card in the board can hit a multitude of matchups but Leyline is there for your absolute worst one.


Also, do you often sideboard in all 4x Pernicious Deed? It's just a feeling, but I suspect sometimes you might find yourself pining for a mix of Deed and Explosives.

This is a good point. I usually only bring in 3 max. Still I like 4 because they all come in against goblins, affinity, and some versions of thresh. Canadian Thresh in particular (which is very popular right now) packs alot of pain in the ass cards that deed annihilates, particularly mongoose. EE is good though. I could see 3 and 1, but that probably hurts your affinity and goblin matches slightly.


Dxfiler, I like your list. However, I personally hold the belief that Tombstalker>>Dark Confidant.

You losing 3 life and drawing a card each turn << Your opponent losing 5 life every turn.

I also think that Reanimate deserves a look. It's a fantastic card, esp when you consider that 2 of your key ways to deal with creatures is 4 Vindicate and 4 Thoughtseize.

I love Tombstalker... but I hate that it can kill me off a confidant flip :p That's the only reason it isn't in the deck. I could see squeezing in one if I found room, but any more than that is playing with fire. Tombstalker is great because it puts the opponent on a clock, but this deck isn't really about clocking them. It just creates really bad board positions for them quickly, which isn't always the same as putting them on a clock. Confidant is generally a must kill creature that can always come out on turn 2, where Tombstalker is never coming out on turn 2.


Tombstalker is a late game card especially without dark rit, and drawing it with bob most of the time will kill you. I like both options but you deffinitly have to choose one or the other.

That basically sums up how I feel about the card. Given that confidant and tombstalker don't play well together, if forced to only use one I'm going to pick Bob every time.

As for Reanimate, it doesn't really do anything better than Eternal Witness. I'd rather have the guy for 2 extra mana plus the ability to get anything instead of being limited to just creatures.

I'm still working on the deck feverishly. I'll probably give it a spin in my area's next magic 500, and if it does well maybe I'd even take it down to the source anniversary tourney. The deck is not exactly my style (I'm a man of the aggro :p), but it's been so consistent that it's hard for me to overlook.

TY again for all the comments on the version I posted. I always love feedback. <3

- Dave Feinstein

[SuckerPunch]

My suggestion was to run Tombstalker in place of Bob, not to run both.

I always pick Tombstalker over Bob. You go the opposite route.

[TheLion]

May I quote Kevdog's last post once again:


Many people are forgetting that the rock's power came in its' abundance of near guaranteed X for 1's (of which they chose at least 3 of the following: Wall of Blossoms Yavimaya Elder Yavimaya Granger Deranged Hermit Phyrexian Rager Phyrexian Plaguelord and later Phyrexian Arena Gerrard's Verdict) and Pernicious Deed. The deck was called "The Rock and his minions" because of Phyrexian Plaguelord which evolved into Spiritmonger and used small critters to speed it up (birds, llanowar elves, wall of roots), others to slow the beats (spike weaver and/or feeder), the bomb (plaguelord hermit or monger) followed or preceded by a board clearing deed if needed. In a format defined by creature removal, people are changing the second best card advantage source in the deck that was hard to get rid of (phyrexian arena) into a creature (dark confidant), cutting the 2 for 1's left and right, and some are moving it to a deck that blows EVERYTHING they own away with their own deeds (which are then migrating to the board at an alarming rate). Deed+troll/monger=synergy, deed+goyf+confidant=conflict. Most of those degenerate to discard+goyf+confidant with the white inclusion bringing vindicate and swords... more one for ones. Confidant and Witness then become the sole sources of EXPLICIT card advantage and become surrounded by too much discard, a ton of one-for-ones, and critters that have one special ability, tap to attack (doran, tarmogoyf). It has become an unspoken truth that the deck NEEDS the efficiency of regeneration in the form of Troll Ascetic and/or Spiritmonger. If I see another deck that calls itself the rock and blows its whole support team AND threats away with deed (or the lack of deeds), I am going to cry at the death of an awesome deck.

The last recent list by DXFiler runs 22 (!!) creatures. Even 4 Doran, which is legendary... only 6 (creature) cards make card advantage. No you are arguing replacing 4 Confidants with 4 Tombstalker!? Then you'd have 16 Beaters with the sole purpose {T}: Attack.

Pernicious Deed is in the Sideboard... WTF!?!

If you want to run a BG Aggro Deck, why not go to the Eva Green Thread? It even runs less creatures.

[Dxfiler]

My suggestion was to run Tombstalker in place of Bob, not to run both.

I always pick Tombstalker over Bob. You go the opposite route.

I thought you were suggesting to run both, my bad.

I can respect running Tombstalker over Bob if you want to go a control-ish version, I just prefer to go more aggro with it. I'm a very aggressive person :laugh:



The last recent list by DXFiler runs 22 (!!) creatures. Even 4 Doran, which is legendary... only 6 (creature) cards make card advantage. No you are arguing replacing 4 Confidants with 4 Tombstalker!? Then you'd have 16 Beaters with the sole purpose {T}: Attack.

Pernicious Deed is in the Sideboard... WTF!?!


Just to be clear I'm a Confidant guy, not a Tombstalker guy... in case that was directed at me.

As for Kevdog's argument that you quoted, he brings up good points and I agree with some if it. The Rock was originally designed as a card advantage deck, but you also have to keep in mind it wasn't designed originally to compete in legacy.

Times change, new formats become competitive and relevant. Legacy really wasn't around when The Rock was spawned 10+ years ago by Sol Malka. Now that it's here, it brings an entire new set of dynamics and challenges that were not there when the deck is created. So it's hard for me to buy the argument that a deck isn't rock if it isn't all 2 for 1's.

You can call a deck 'The Rock' without it being just about card advantage. You can call a deck 'The Rock' and use aggressive creatures... even ones primarily included for swinging :eek:

The days of running Wall of Blossoms and Deranged Hermit are over. If you want the Rock to be competitive, particularly in legacy, you NEED to play some 1 for 1's. In a white version for example, it's hard for me to envision the deck not playing with Swords to Plowshares. I mean you can't just cross your fingers and hope not to face Goblins.

As for the Deed argument brought up, I'm not crazy about Deed because it does in fact play opposite to what I'm trying to do with my version of the deck. I want to play disruption while beating face. Deed blows up some of my beaters... hence it's not maindeck. HOWEVER, I do think Deed is a great sideboard card when you get outmatched by other aggro decks that are there to solely beat face. Best to examples I can bring up again would be Affinity and Goblins, still two very relevant decks. Plus there's random stuff like slivers/elves that's been doing quite well lately, and they are decks you have to respect.

If you want specialized answers to some of those above decks, then there are better board options than Deed. As already mentioned earlier, I prefer not to go the specialized route in my sideboard unless the matchup is just abysmal. Thus the only card that really would get sided in for just one match in my board is Leyline of the Void, because Ichorid is that bad a match.

Deed is good enough and broad enough to be worthy of inclusion in Rock sideboards. It takes out SOME of your own permanents, but unless you're playing totally wrong the matches where you side it in should ALWAYS affect your opponent more than yourself.

So there are scenarios where even playing Pernicious Deed in a faster version of The Rock could actually create...

CARD ADVANTAGE! :tongue:

I don't play a version of The Rock that goes specifically for card advantage, but it can still be attained... even off cards like Deed that you cited as being not advantageous to that goal.

You brought up good points. I just disagree on the notion that playing Deed can't work for a Rock player. The day of just using Trolls/Spiritmongers to keep in the true spirit of The Rock is outdated. Yes you can still build a version like that and be competitive, but personally I don't think it's the most effective option.

There's nothing with being an oldschool troll/monger/blossoms kind of Rock guy, but that doesn't mean there aren't other decks can take different routes and still be considered 'The Rock' in nature.

Thanks again for the feedback.

- Dave Feinstein

[TheLion]

If you want the Rock to be competitive, particularly in legacy, you NEED to play some 1 for 1's.


Yes some. Swords, Vindicate, Edict, Smother and so on are great cards. But not if you play 90% 1 for 1s.



I want to play disruption while beating face.

For me The Rock is a slower control deck, maybe aggro control, with much card advantage and synergy, which accelerates fast into the midgame, clears the board with deed and other spells and wins with one or a few fatties.
If you just want to beat face early on, while disrupting your opponent (with discard), then you should really read the threads

Rockin' Funkbrew (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4504) (BGW Aggro, very similar to your list)
and
Eva Green - B/g suicide (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8220)

I mean what's the point of discussing very similar decks and deck concepts ("beating face, while disrupting") in 3 different threads?

[Dxfiler]

Yes some. Swords, Vindicate, Edict, Smother and so on are great cards. But not if you play 90% 1 for 1s.



For me The Rock is a slower control deck, maybe aggro control, with much card advantage and synergy, which accelerates fast into the midgame, clears the board with deed and other spells and wins with one or a few fatties.
If you just want to beat face early on, while disrupting your opponent (with discard), then you should really read the threads

Rockin' Funkbrew (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4504) (BGW Aggro, very similar to your list)
and
Eva Green - B/g suicide (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8220)

I mean what's the point of discussing very similar decks and deck concepts ("beating face, while disrupting") in 3 different threads?

Well we have different ways to approach the deck, but that doesn't make my deck any less 'rock' than yours. I've read those threads, and my version isn't close at all to EVA Green and only has passing resemblance to 'RocknFunkbrew.' That deck commonly runs a whole bunch of stuff I don't including River Boa, Spectral Lynx, Cabal Therapy and Hymn to Tourach.

Both EVA Green and Rockin Funkbrew veer towards pure aggro, where I do not. I consider myself to be a slightly more aggro version of traditional Rock. As for why there are so many different threads on effectively the same archtype, I don't know. You should ask those people.

My deck is in the appropriate thread :smile:

- Dave

[Waikiki]

I agree the rock is a different thing then Eva green or funkbrew.

I also think your list is very solid. tho im still in love with therapy. Maybe because im a good reader.

[TheLion]

So, what is the differen thing? Except that some lists play Kitchen Finks and othes play Spectral Lynx instead maybe.
The strategy stays the same. Even the colors.

I like your Death Cloud Rock list more, than those "beating while disrupting" lists.

[Jak]

Please, someone, show me a good, traditional rock list. Legacy is a lot faster than the days where Phyrexian Plaguelord ruled the GB deck. You need answers fast in Legacy and the old rock lists just won't hold up. Also, one of the most important things in Legacy right now is GA or Goyf advantage. Having removal and discard spells that go one for one is enough to get GA.

[meanee]

I have played a kind of rock deck for the last three tournies I went to, for a 12-4-2 record.

It looks like this as of right now, but with the giant cardpool available for a deck like this, both the main and the side-board changes from day to day.

4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
3 eternal witness
3 loxodon hierarch (or kitchen finks)
2 tombstalker

4 deed
4 swords
3 vindicate
4 duress
3 seize

3 top

1 stronghold
8 fetches
4 bayou
3 scrub
1 savannah
2 swamp
2 forest
1 plains

Sideboard consists of a mix between:
hymn, leyline, grip, jitte, cop:red, choke, smother, orim's chant, extirpate and so on and so on.

It has been quite hard for me to figure out why this is actually a good deck, because there is not that much cardadvantage - many of the cards are just 1-for-1's and that won't win you the game. But between deed, confidant, witness and all the removal, this deck simply wins the GA (which is a great point). And that would be why it wins all the time, against almost any deck (besies combo, which is a hell!).

Anyway its my couple of cents on the deck, and I think it is some of the closest you come to a "traditional" rock dot dec. Except of course for all the new great cards, and the giant shift in the game since the rock was first put together...

- meanee

[Waikiki]

Please, someone, show me a good, traditional rock list. Legacy is a lot faster than the days where Phyrexian Plaguelord ruled the GB deck. You need answers fast in Legacy and the old rock lists just won't hold up. Also, one of the most important things in Legacy right now is GA or Goyf advantage. Having removal and discard spells that go one for one is enough to get GA.

Funkbrew plays: Aggro/Control. uses small beaters and gold cards(wish) to gain control of the game. The regen/persist beaters are needed to make deed even more painfull.

Eva Green plays Aggro/Tempo. and doesn't really control the late game.


I do Agree with your statement and I believe most rock list today are just some undercosted fatties (goyf/Doran) while also playing mass sweepers (deed). It sometimes gets aways with it because the creatures are able to win a game by themselves. I'd prefer to see some more synergy myself.

Thats why I think the rock should be a pure control deck and take the Death Cloud Rock list as an example. It's full of synergy and I was even thinking of including tombstalker because its synergy with deed is better then goyf. Altho goyf is better in the early game.

[rancOr_]

Off the Thought of this, I don't really don't have much of an opinion on which one is better between bob or stalker,(mainly because both are great, it just matters on what kind of playstyle you are.) but both together is a horrible idea, whats the point of playing a bob and getting a tombstalker to lose eight life in the early game and might not be able to even play it. Tombstalker is a late game card especially without dark rit, and drawing it with bob most of the time will kill you. I like both options but you deffinitly have to choose one or the other.

I dont think this is true at all. Tombstalker and Dark Confidant can be in the same deck perfectly.. just dont play too much. Anyway if u are running a aggro/control decklist with any decent amount of fetch u should play Sensei's Divining Top. It gives u soo much control and always finds answers.

About the creature base.. I think that in the current metagame Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf should be an auto-include in any Rock deck.(Yes they can get killed by Pernicious Deed,but who cares about that?). U dont have to drop deed if you're the one beating. I play the deck as control first by thoughtseize/hymn and then drop confi for mass card-advantage or a tarmo/tombstalker.This deck is very solid and doesnt rly have any bad MU's. (Loam and goblins are the harder ones).Deed is just a reset button that punishes overextension from ur opponents. Also the synergy between Deed and Tombstalker is very nice. Tombstalker is just a bomb mid-game,but ofc u dont wanna run more then 2-3.

If u wanna play it as a control deck, I suggest going something like Waikiki's build with Deathcloud. Seems like a very nice deck with alot of synergy.

This is my current decklist,with good results.

4x Windswept Heath
2x Polluted Delta
2x Bloodstained Mire
3x Bayou
3x Scrubland
1x Savannah
4x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Volrath's Stronghold

4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Jotun Grunt
2x Tombstalker

3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Pernicious Deed

4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Extirpate
2x Smother
4x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard:
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Infest
3x Krosan Grip
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Duress

[RalfW.]

Hello everbody

this is my control list i played on a small torunamant(10 players) and got second with it only losing to U/G/b/w Thresh in the finals.

"BAB"

2 x Volrath´s Stronghold
1 x Savannah
1 x Scrubland
1 x Plains
1 x Swamp
2 x Treetop Village
4 x Windswept Heat
4 x Bayou
2 x Bloodstained Mire
4 x Forest

2 x Sensei´s divining Top
3 x Thoughtseize
3 x Cabal Therapy
4 x Swords to Plowshares
4 x Wall of Blossom
4 x Sakura Tribe Elder
4 x Vindicate
3 x Eternal Witness
4 x Pernicious Deed
4 x Loxodon Hierarch
2 x Shriekmaw
1 x Garruk Wildspeaker

SB:
2 x Tsunami
3 x Krosan Grip
2 x Engineered Plague
4 x Duress
4 x Extripate

I realy like the shriekmaw and Volrath´s Stronghold synergy. Garruk as a one of is realy good and i think of including a second one and cut one more Witness.

[TheLion]

Finally a list, I like, since it is a control list :-).
No Goyfs make me happy, since I always disliked it together with Deed, and I think, they don't belong in a control deck.
Though I miss the card draw here. I'd cut 1 Hierarch and 1-2 Walls for maybe Phyrexian Arena or Harmonize.

I'm also unsure about 2 Strongholds..

[slyfer]

What is your (plural) strategies vs mirror decks? There are many types of Rock-like decks:
1) Truffle Shuffle
2) This
3) Aggro with finks, lynx and mire boa (rocking funkbrew)
4) Eva green?

We don't have land destruction, so I think we suffer deck with many duals, they can just fetch their colors, and run every spell, like tourach (BB) and then spell with mixed colors (vindicate/deed) withut problems.
What is you general approach in game 2 and 3?
I have 2 haunting echoes, and I think it's the only card that can win the match. In tournament I faced a mirror, and it's an endless story of creature-removal-recursion-discard-creature-removal, etc...
The aggro version with kitchen finks could be problematic: lynx and mire boa are very had to stop (only 4 stp), but in my side I have 2/3 hideous laughter. In tournament I saw a mirror of this deck (like idraleo list, or this list just posted) vs aggro rock with ascetic troll + equips. This deck wons only because of hideous laughter. It was the only out.

Eva green is a more explosive deck, but I think it's quite manageable, better than the others.
Vs truffle shuffle I would play tormod crypt + haunting echoes. He does not play discards, only removal, removal, removal.... I think we should win by decking him lol

PS: if you -4 blossom +4 dark confidant +1 sensei , you got almost the idraleo list. I play duress maindeck over seize, because creatures are not a problem (deed/stp/vindicate), so I can play confidant and take some more damage safely.

[landstill101]

I dont think this is true at all. Tombstalker and Dark Confidant can be in the same deck perfectly.. just dont play too much. Anyway if u are running a aggro/control decklist with any decent amount of fetch u should play Sensei's Divining Top. It gives u soo much control and always finds answers.

Now your changing the arguement by adding top, his didn't have top and doesn't need it but to just add 4 tops to a list just so you can have bob and tombstalker is a bad idea. Your forcing the deck to drop a top before ever playing a bob so you don't get hit with too much damage, which also forces out 4 more cards which could be removal or discard. If top is in the deck it is somewhat feesible, but without like most lists are, no they do not work together at all.



About the creature base.. I think that in the current metagame Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf should be an auto-include in any Rock deck.(Yes they can get killed by Pernicious Deed,but who cares about that?). U dont have to drop deed if you're the one beating. I play the deck as control first by thoughtseize/hymn and then drop confi for mass card-advantage or a tarmo/tombstalker.This deck is very solid and doesnt rly have any bad MU's. (Loam and goblins are the harder ones).Deed is just a reset button that punishes overextension from ur opponents. Also the synergy between Deed and Tombstalker is very nice. Tombstalker is just a bomb mid-game,but ofc u dont wanna run more then 2-3.



Tarmogoyf is an auto-include yes just because of the sheer force soo early in the game. but bob is not, many of the lists run stalker, heirarch, deed and such which forces the average cc of the deck to around 3-4 which makes bob more of a threat to you. Many of the successful decks right now that run bob are black threshold(which has tons of draws to keep low count stuff on top) and RGWB zoo which doesn't have a single card over 2 cc. Bob is not an auto include and by playing bob, your going to either kill yourself, or force the deck cc count down and forcing the powerfulness of the colors to be toned down, which will make the deck to weak to win.

[idraleo]

That' s false. I' ve played tons of times Bob since i don' t have any SDT in my hand. The fact is that you got to survive until you cand drop a decent win condition or get a board control position thanks to Pernicious and recursions. Sometimes happens to play Bob to force our opponent to waste resources and time to handle it; any player with a brain will ever leave Bob in play if he got the way to sweep it off. That's why playing Bob, since u got or not SDT on board, is an advantage for us at least 90% of the times. Bob gives us tempo if opponent handle on him, or gives us an incredible advantage if it remains on board for 1 or 2 turns.

That is obv false in the case of Eva Green and aggro oriented decklists, since they don' t have to reach a control position gaining tempo but they got to run and get close to victory as fast as they can.

Althought, SDT is not a wasted slot if you run into decklists that improve a good shuffling engine, thanks to fetches and Sakuras, and is obv a wasted slot on aggro oriented since those decks doesn't have tempo and mana to invest on SDT.

As i sayed many times ago, this thread is going to suck because people try to convince each other that his way to run the deck is better. This is pointless because most of the times discussions get back on the same points; that's because people who say that, for example, SDT and Bob sucks in Rock say it because they play the deck with an aggressive approach and try to force other people to play the same way. Viceversa, players that enjoy playing the deck as a more slowly control one will always try to force people to drop cards as Spectral Linx and Jitte or Tourach, but that' s not because those cards sucks by theyrself, that' s because there' s too many people that talks of different decks on the same thread.

So please, i ' m asking moderators to final split this thread into 2 different one, as they correctly did for Landstill thread.

[slyfer]

Thanks for by-passing me, dudes!
Of course there are many versions of rock, between control-oriented and aggro-oriented, but the problem of a mirror between these kind of "similar" decks is on topic, and I think it's interesting.
After all, most of rocks bgw plays stp/vindicate/deed as removals, some dudes (resilient for aggro-rock as funkbrews, or tempo/accelerant for control-rock), some discards (or even any, like in truffle shuffle) and some recursions (or any).

[The Rack]

Hey guys, as the creator of Funkbrew, I'd like to drop in and talk about m opinion on BWG archetypes in general.

Funkbrew: My version, it's mainly an Aggro/Control deck that is based on getting advantage from Deed. That's what it started out to be anyways. Now it's a aggro/control that basically needs to get past the first few turns against noncombo control decks then it stabilizes and takes control with GLittering Wish and CA from deed, therapy, regens, and finks. Against control and combo I wanna go as fast as possible holding nothing back, Landstill is tough for my archetype so I need a fast hand. That's why I like playing Funkbrew because sometimes it plays like The Rock, it will control the state then get a fatty usually being Mystic Enforcer and beats that way.

The Rock: Sometimes I like playing more Rockish builds because it helps the late game so much. That's one of the big advantages over playing Funkbrew because The Rock thrives in the late game whereas funkbrew stabalizes enough to win but sometimes it can't stabilize. I got a lot of ideas from The Rock when I first made my deck and it influences me still. I think the overall BWG archetype as a whole has had to quicken itself due to combo and Tarmogoyf which is turning The Rock, a little more AggroControl than just Control. In a meta where Tarmogoyf is King all other competitive decks must stand up to it and sometimes race it.

Mirror matchups- as I really only play Funkbrew in tournies I like playing other BWG decks. The main reason is that Deed is the best card in all of our decks and they are all built around it, for the most part, so Deed doesn't affecteach other as much as it would to other decks.

BTW, I'm totally not trying to derail this into a Funkbrew thread, I've just been reading about the discussion over different types of BWG and who else better to give their opinion than the creator of it right? :P

My 2 cents

[Dxfiler]

Well I've done about 50 games worth of testing since I last posted with my version of The Rock. I've lost 6 times. This is the updated version:

// Lands
1 [IA] Plains
2 [B] Savannah
4 [U] Bayou
4 [U] Scrubland
2 [10E] Swamp
2 [DM] Forest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Birds of Paradise
2 [FNM] Eternal Witness
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [LRW] Doran, the Siege Tower
2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg

// Spells
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [JGC] Vindicate
2 [FNM] Duress
2 [PLC] Extirpate

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FNM] Duress
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [JGC] Pernicious Deed
SB: 4 [SHM] Kitchen Finks

Moved the Finks to the board. Extirpate and Teeg went maindeck. The change was mainly because Extirpate has been great and it gives me a ray of light vs. Ichorid game 1. I tried Therapy main but just haven't been happy with it. Now especially with less guys and no finks main I don't think it's worth it. Sometimes I have no other play but turn 1 Duress and if that's therapy then I'm just shooting in the dark. That's not fun ;p

Teeg main is questionable but it's nice to shut off FOW and give combo another card to worry about game 1. Teeg is the card that could def get cut, but for now I'm ok with it.

No finks main is hard for me to cope with. I enjoy them and they were great when I was using them, but I haven't missed them too much. They are great if you randomly get whacked on Bob flips but you should be fine most of the time. You flip over like 4 three drops then you'll prob lose anyway. That happened once and cost me a game, but is extremely rare and the risk you take playing with him.

Two of my recent losses game to burn. I'm still doing pretty good against it game 1, but obviously the win percentage is going to go down when you cut the single best card against them. Still, if you don't walk into wasteland/magus/price of progress and control their threats you'll be fine. Using plow at the right time on your own guy comes up alot. After board this match gets alot better with the finks going back in. I still might get them in as a 2-of and cut Teeg, but I'm not sure yet.

Counterbalance decks are about 50/50. The older version ran so many 3 drops that they couldn't counterblanace them all. The newer one has no finks so it's easier for them to counter stuff if they get online, but careful playing has been guiding me. They don't have too much you need to worry about besides that. Don't walk into EE. The maindeck extirpates really help screwing with them if they set up counterbalance/top to protect themselves with like a 3 drop on top. You just extirpate before they Vindicate. Also with 6 maindeck discard it's nice to whack them with extirpate right after they Brainstorm.

I've faced a little bit of everything. Still tweaking it but happy with it overall. The mana is just where I want it. I'm just toying with a couple slots but I really enjoy the deck. It's a good alternative to those looking to play something that isn't traditional rock.

- Dave Feinstein

[Illissius]

Because I always have this thought whenever I see a Rock deck, especially one without maindeck Deeds: would the deck be made better by cutting (for example) 2 Teeg, 2 Extirpate, and 4 Vindicate for 4 Survival, 1 Squee, 1 Genesis, 1 Shriekmaw, and 1 Harmonic or Wickerbough? Why or why not? Alternately, by cutting any other combination of cards you think would be better (I was just taking a wild guess).

[Dxfiler]

Because I always have this thought whenever I see a Rock deck, especially one without maindeck Deeds: would the deck be made better by cutting (for example) 2 Teeg, 2 Extirpate, and 4 Vindicate for 4 Survival, 1 Squee, 1 Genesis, 1 Shriekmaw, and 1 Harmonic or Wickerbough? Why or why not? Alternately, by cutting any other combination of cards you think would be better (I was just taking a wild guess).

Survival is kind of a whole different animal imo. If I were going to turn this into survival the entire base would look different. I wouldn't just add 8 cards. I've tried Survival decks before but I'm happier playing Rock. Maindeck Deed not withstanding the deck plays close to a normal Rock.

Vindicate is a card I would never cut as long as it's Rock. The card bails you out of too many scenarios.

Like I said the deck is testing very well. I really don't see why I'd morph it into Survival all of a sudden.

- Dave

[Rush]

Have any of you tried Glittering Wish?

[TheLion]

I tried Living Wish, which is suprior to Glittering imo, and I'm quite confident with it.

[Rush]

@TheLion: I can believe that actually.
@Dxfiler: Did I play you on MWS yesterday? I was running Dead Guy Ale.

[Holiday]

Vindicate is a card I would never cut as long as it's Rock. The card bails you out of too many scenarios.


This may become especially true with the release of the new planeswalkers from SoA.

[Dxfiler]

@Dxfiler: Did I play you on MWS yesterday? I was running Dead Guy Ale.

You probably did :x

- Dave

[ScatmanX]

just saying, Recurring Nightmare + Kitchen Finks with Baloth, witness or another finks on the grave, just rocks.
Also, Unearth a Witness, a Wob, a Finks, a Sakura... works as wonders.

Here's my current version:


// Lands
3 [A] Forest (1)
2 [UL] Treetop Village
4 [A] Bayou
2 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
5 [MI] Swamp (1)

// Creatures
3 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
2 [ON] Ravenous Baloth
3 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
4 [10E] Birds of Paradise
4 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
3 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
1 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
3 [UL] Unearth
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip


Just for the record, I'm really missing Majestyk's, Anarchy's and LAM's commentarys.

[Waikiki]

interesting list. Dont you miss the spotremoval?

[ScatmanX]

Actually, I do.
I'm thinking of -1 Unearth, -1 Garruk, -1 Baloth (?), for 2 or 3 Shierkmaw, and one more Recurring Nightmare (wich is so awesome!).

Was also thinking that, with this build, Bop are necessaary, once my 3cc drop are restricted to Finks, Recurring Nightmare and Witness ( these two that dont nedd to come down on turn 2 or 3...)

Removing them would make the STE count go to 4 (wich is better for my Unearth), 2 more lands (I think an Urborg is missing also), and a Shierkmaw (2 mana, instead of 3 of Putrefy).

Also, maybe an Bone Shreder should be good, once it can be returned via Unearth.

Thoughts?

[Balu]

Hi. First of all excuse my terrible English again :-D.

@ ScatmanX
I really love your idea. It is a great deck built around great synergies. I think Kitchen Finks is the main reason for the "return" of Cabal Therapy in our Format...
I was working a few days ago on a similar list (a little more Control-Style), comparing a white splash.

The spalsh would us give access to Hierarch (over Baloth, more fun with Nightmare and CiP), Swords (Witness-Recurring Swords is still an nasty move in several Matchups) and Enlightened Tutor - just insane in this deck for finding Deeds and Recrurring Nightmare (after Boarding Crypts and Plagues).

I played Shredders over Shierkmaws for the same reason you told (Unearth). 2 Shredders and they worded fine but a little slow, so I decided to play a removalsuite of:
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Boneshredder

My first Version (don't laugh) played Reavenous Rats and Kamigawa-Dragons, but of course the "Ratengiene" is not strong enough and Nightmare-switching Kokusho/Yoshei in the lategame means propably just win-more (although it is a fine lock and Combo-kill :-D )

[ScatmanX]

Balu,
I think the same way about the dragons. there's no need for them.

About the splashes, I think is great, with all collors actually. White give the spells you told. Blue gives Gifts Ungiven, counter, bounces... Red gives Bolt, Flametong Kavu, and other neat tricks. But the deal is: the make your lands way more succetible to wastelands and port; you end up using very few, or none, basics. wich suks against, let's say, Goblins (and make STE unplayable). The ability to fight around land desruption is awesome in this deck. That's what I think.

[slyfer]

How can we reliably beat enchantress?
I mean without graveyard removal maindeck, we have a terrible match up. If they set-up they draw like hell, they replenish at some point, and also 1x karmic justice, 2x solitary confinement are annoying, elefant grass is annoying, 3x sterling grove is annoying, and some people maindeck opalescence as a third win condition...
I mean.... game 2 they bring in more karmic justice. In thery they should scoop to deed + tormod's but in practice they have always a contrast to this strategy (namely sterling groe -> karmic justice).
They just need to buy time. :rolleyes:

[mtglordtom24]

Okay, I'm probably playing this list Saturday in Pawtucket. I haven't really tested this list too much, as I don't have any test partners at school here. But I like the Wishboard... I could go for cutting the Wishes and playing Survival or something, but I don't know as of yet. Anyways, this is Doran's Wish:

4x Tarmogoyf
3x Doran
4x Kitchen Finks
3x Gaddock Teeg
4x Dark Confidant
4x Eternal Witness

4x Thoughtseize
4x Unearth
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Glittering Wish

4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Windswept Heath
4x Savannah
4x Bayou
2x Overgrown Tomb
2x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Forest

SB:
3x Vexing Shusher
2x Cabal Therapy
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Mortify
1x Putrefy
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Doran
3x Krosan Grip
1x Gaea's Blessing

Of note:
#1. No Rofellos-I don't need a lot of mana, so I don't think that he fits the deck.
#2. Unearth hits everything-Unearth an Eternal Witness and get a 2/1 for B.
#3. Gaddock Teeg is ridiculous- He is.
#4. The sideboard looks so shaky-I don't know if Vindicate should be in over Putrefy/Mortify.
#5. I think I should be playing 1x Scrubland
#6. Wish... or not?

Tell me what you think... and I see a lot of people are from Connecticut here... nice.

[The Rack]

I really like Glittering Wish in FUnkbrew, (it's on the bottom of te screen in Established Decks) but I will say that Wish is a card that no deck wants to see. I don'tplay mortify and putrefy, I like Vindicate instead, then you won't need harmonic sliver either. Shusher is very good as he forces everything through. Wheel is excellent against Ichorid and slows a lot of IGG combo decks. I like playing it on myself against Painter's Servant as well. Teeg is always hot against combo and control. Doran is a beatstick. I would suggest Mystic Enforcer because of his evasion. Not a lot of decks can handle a turn 4 Enforcer 5th turn take 6. He's a lot of pressure. You should probably play 1 Pernicious Deed because it is always good. I love wishing for deed against Affinity or Stax or thresh with counterbalance because they can't do anything. So

-1 Harmonic
-1 Mortify
-1 Putrefy

+1 Mystic Enforcer
+1 Deed
+1 Vindicate

My 2 cents.

[mtglordtom24]

I agree on the Deed, I don't have Vindicates, and they aren't instant speed, but you're missing one major point with both the Harmonic Sliver and Doran... they come back with Unearth. Harmonic Sliver and Doran can be played from the graveyard with Unearth and Enforcer can't.

[Rush]

Have any of you tried using the old rock version with the Braids, Cabal Minion/Oversold Cemetary combo?

[TheLion]

Hm, this combo would mean, that you run a ton of creatures... And probably no Deed, since it destroys your combo..
I never tried it though..

But I tried Ohran Viper in the 1GG slot as Seraph2k suggested a few posts ago (page 24). It seems superior than Kitchen Finks or Troll Ascetic in this slot, because like Confidant it's a card that reads: handle me immediately, or you will probably lose.

btw: I'm also wondering why there is no Deed or Vindicate in the Glittering-Wishboard...

[mtglordtom24]

Trust me, I want to play Deed in my board, I'm thinking that if I cut the Mortify and Putrefy for Vindicate and Deed, then I'll be fine, but I could use some more advice on this list if possible, as I'm quite new to the format and this is my own idea and I don't have a test partner.

[slyfer]

Hi all!

How can we reliably beat enchantress?
I mean without graveyard removal maindeck, we have a terrible match up. If they set-up they draw like hell, they replenish at some point, and also 1x karmic justice, 2x solitary confinement are annoying, elefant grass is annoying, 3x sterling grove is annoying, and some people maindeck opalescence as a third win condition...
I mean.... game 2 they bring in more karmic justice. In thery they should scoop to deed + tormod's but in practice they have always a contrast to this strategy (namely sterling groe -> karmic justice).
They just need to buy time.

[Holiday]

mtglordtom24, Are you praying you won't run into Ichorid?
I've seen plenty in the meta lately.

[Rush]

Hm, this combo would mean, that you run a ton of creatures... And probably no Deed, since it destroys your combo..
I never tried it though..
The deck used a lot of controlling creatures. One of the creature it used I haven't seen anyone post was Nezumi Shortfang. It's yet another: Handle me or I win because of card advantage card, namely because you keep using it to make your opponent discard during their Draw Phase but before the Main Phase (after they draw, but I'm not sure of the new rules, so this may no longer work).

On a side note, I played a very well made Rock/Thresh mix the other day. It did quite well. I'll post a list of my Bwg Rock variant in a little bit.

[mtglordtom24]

mtglordtom24, Are you praying you won't run into Ichorid?
I've seen plenty in the meta lately.

Not necesarily, but I could use some more technology for that matchup for sure. That deck has been seeing a lot of play because it's cheap and they force you to stop them. I'm not exactly sure what kind of tech I should run though, Gaddock Teeg 3x in the Main and 4x Wish for him is pretty good. They can't win with him on the board without just trying to make guys with Therapy. If I get time to Wish for Deed and play it, then they can't win. But I suppose that I definitely need another card to hose them, any thoughts?

[mtglordtom24]

For the deck, I played at the DHG 500 today and learned, CUT GLITTERING WISH FOR VINDICATE, which would involve the destruction of the sideboard and rebuilding it with 4x Cabal Therapy, 4x Krosan Grip, 4x Harmonic Sliver and 3x Vexing Shusher. 3x Gaddock Teeg and 3x Doran is enough. Unearth is 100 times more insane than I gave it credit for, and I thought it was nuts before.

[idraleo]

It is obv that Glittering sucks, what is not obv is that somebody still want to run it ^^.
Also, why did you use this thread to post those kind of deklists? For the aggro-based rock decks the right thread is the Rocking Funkbrew one, don' t you think?

[mtglordtom24]

This is a Rock deck... What's a Funkbrew? And Unearth should be banned, it's sooooo good.

[TheLion]

Also, why did you use this thread to post those kind of deklists? For the aggro-based rock decks the right thread is the Rocking Funkbrew one, don' t you think?

Thanks. Exactly what I said, too... few posts ago...

[The Rack]

idraleo: Glittering Wish is not a bad card when your tempo is built around it, and it continually gets better with each multicolored sets are printed. It is not as good as VIndicate and that should be obvious. GW adds so much diversity and can really win games by itself. I don't think it's fair to call it a horrible card.

mtglordtom: Rockin Funkbrew is a GWB deck that looks more like yours than the Rock does. Go http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4504&page=15
there.

TheLion: He posted in The Rock thread because The Rock is more well known for being the go to BWG deck than the others.

[rancOr_]

This is my Rock decklist in Europe. As I can see so far,it's totally different then the ones in America. It's doing very good here, t8'ing last 4 tournaments.
It also has a very good combo MU preboarding,and can take care of Loam better with Extirpate/grunt. Anyways, let me know what u think about it,and how it can be improved(also sb.)

4x Windswept Heath
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Polluted Delta
3x Bayou
3x Scrubland
4x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Forest
1x Savannah
1x Volrath’s stronghold

4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Tombstalker
2x Jötun Grunt

3x Sensei’s Divining Top
2x Smother
3x Pernicious Deed

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Vindicate
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Extirpate

Sideboard:

3x Tormod’s Crypt
4x Engineered Plague
3x Krosan Grip
2x Engineered Explosives
3x Duress

[TheLion]

Honestly speaking I dont like it.

* Dark Confidant + Tombstalker = anti synergy.
* Deed + Dark Confidant/Tarmogoyf/Jötun Grunt = anti synergy.
* Tarmogoyf + Jötun Grunt = anti synergy.
* no Eternal Witness
* the only draw (engine) is Dark Confidant.

If you go the aggro path, why no Doran?

[rancOr_]

* I have never had troubles with confidant and Tombstalker together. I play 3 tops and only 2 TS,only happened to me once! that i revealed a tombstalker and that was the only dmge i took that game..

* Yes,u (can) blow up your own confi/goyfs, but if u play a bit smart u just keep deed in your hand and start beating with a goyf/grunt. Deed can reset the game incase ur opponent takes advantage,but mostly I'm the one putting the pressure with the hyms,thoughtz,vindicate etc.. Speaking of Synergie, Deed+ tombstalker is insane. The evasion Tombstalker gives u is very nice,and with 8fetches and a top, u can easily dig trough ur deck midgame.

* I've never had any problems at all regarding goyf/grunt conflict. Most of the time I take fetchlands/useless cards from oppo first,or I have enough of my own if I play a grunt midgame. If youre playing against Loam-decks its an imba card that will gif u the game if they dont destroy it.

* Eternal Witness is nice,but u cant play witness and Hymn together,the BB is too hard. I personally like Hymn to Tourach more,cause it can just win games on its own.(double hymn is very nice^^).

I've played Doran,but Tombstalker/grunt is just way stronger and a Swords to Plowshares on doran is just bad...

[Holiday]

This is my Rock decklist in Europe. As I can see so far,it's totally different then the ones in America. It's doing very good here, t8'ing last 4 tournaments.
It also has a very good combo MU preboarding,and can take care of Loam better with Extirpate/grunt. Anyways, let me know what u think about it,and how it can be improved(also sb.)


I run a very similar list. The differences are that I choose to run a slightly different manabase so I can run 3 eternal witness rather than grunt and extirpate.
I run 3 crypts and 3 extirpates SB. I am also considering running some kitchen finks somewhere because I have been seeing a ton of goyf sligh lately and my life total takes a beating with the fetches, bob, and the toughtseizes.

And I agree with what rancor said about the cases of anti-symetry. Deed and goyf work because when you have one, in most situations, you wouldn't put the other into play anyways.

What's wrong with dark confidant being the only source of card draw? What else is there for card draw besides harmonize? I wouldn't run harmonize in a deck with dark confidant or in one with no birds/sakura.

[rancOr_]

I've been trying to make some spot for eternal witness aswell,because its a very strong card,and quite insane with Volrath's Stronghold. Do you play hymn to tourach? I want to play both,but the double green can be an issue.
Can I see ur decklist?

[Mirrislegend]

@mtglordtom24: Hey, I'm the guy who played the Boros deck on saturday. I was really inspired by your deck, and your mention of running Harmonic Sliver got me thinking. Here's my result (very rough):

3 BoP
4 Plated Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Harmonic Sliver
4 Necrotic Sliver

4 Thoughtseize
3/4 Swords to Plowshares
4/3 Smother
4 Unearth
3 Aether Vial

19 Land

Depending on one's play style, I think the first changes may be -3 BoP, bring StP, Smother, and Vial up to 4 each, +1 land; and possibly -4 Plated Sliver, +4 Goyf.

Anyways, this deck beat's face much better than mtglordtom24's list, while still effectively: abusing Unearth, playing some of the best cards in the format, and controlling the board. Of course, this is all theoretical, with no playtesting. If this inspires anyone, please go ahead!

[Holiday]

I've been trying to make some spot for eternal witness aswell,because its a very strong card,and quite insane with Volrath's Stronghold. Do you play hymn to tourach? I want to play both,but the double green can be an issue.
Can I see ur decklist?

4 Windswept Heath
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
4 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold

My list differs from his as I cut back on the amount of white sources. I find Savannah to be unneccesary in this deck and I prefer to run 3 basic forests.
The only thing is need white for is StP and Vindicate and it can also be used for casting Kitchen finks.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Kitchen Finks (These are flex slots)
2 Tombstalker
3 Eternal Witness

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
1 Engineered Explosives (Flex)

SB
4 Engineered Plague
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
2 Kitchen Finks

SB and flex slots are really a metagame call. I've seen a good amount of Goyf Sligh, URG Thresh, and Ichorid lately.

[throst54]

Has anyone tried running Korlash in BG Rock?
In the same deck as Veteran Explorer he's sick, and can get huge very fast with the amount of recurrsion we play.
Hes a big dude that gives you mana acceleration and regenerates under deed.

If you dont know the card:

Korlash, Heir to Blackblade 2BB
Legendary Creature Zombie Warrior
Korlash, Heir to Blackblade's power and toughness are each equal to the number of Swamps you control.
1B Regenerate Korlash.
Grandeur - Discard another card named Korlash, Heir to Blackblade Search your library for up to two Swamp cards, put them into play tapped, then shuffle your library.
* / *

[TheLion]

Has anyone tried running Korlash in BG Rock?
In the same deck as Veteran Explorer he's sick, and can get huge very fast with the amount of recurrsion we play.
Hes a big dude that gives you mana acceleration and regenerates under deed.

If you dont know the card:

Korlash, Heir to Blackblade 2BB
Legendary Creature Zombie Warrior
Korlash, Heir to Blackblade's power and toughness are each equal to the number of Swamps you control.
1B Regenerate Korlash.
Grandeur - Discard another card named Korlash, Heir to Blackblade Search your library for up to two Swamp cards, put them into play tapped, then shuffle your library.
* / *

Well, he only gives mana acceleration, if you have one in play already and if you have another on hand.
That would be seldom before turn 4. Then it's usually too late for acceleration.
Also, I run more forests than swamps, since more spells are double green (witness, baloth,...)
So in my version he probably would be a 2/2 on on turn 4.
I think he fits better in an MBC or MBA build.

[DragoFireheart]

Is there a reason that Chameleon Colossus is not used over Loxodon Hierarch? I've noticed a lot of deck lists don't run the Chameleon.

[Illissius]

There is a reason:

When Loxodon Hierarch comes into play, you gain 4 life.

[DragoFireheart]

There is a reason:

Yes, but the CC is pro black and can get bigger than a Goyf.

Edit: I've tested both. CC is too clunky as I am always casting something, be it more beats, wishes or popping a deed.

The Elephant has worked great in off-setting Thoughtseize as well.

[DragoFireheart]

Has anyone tested Glittering Wish in this deck?

[Facevaulter]

Just to respond to the Glittering wish thing we have to discuss what the wish would actually be grabbing outta yer board.

Vindicate would seem the first and obvious choice. An amazing card that can swing tempo, remove CB, kill a color splash ect. ect. Using the wish to get it implies you need it right away and paying 4colored seems bad unless maybe you're 2 for 1ing with it somehow.
Deed is the only other thing I could see grabbing with GW, and that runs into the same problems as vindicate.

Perhaps though there is some merit in snagging Gaddock Teeg. He does answer some pretty powerful cards. However I'd rather just MD teeg and accel into him with birds/c.mox or something else on turn one to make every FoW player gag. I dont see getting any card advantage or even card parity with glittering wish. I mean if you guys can throw out some play samples with wish in your rock builds I'd love to see if it works.
________________________________________________________________
- "I'm gonna rape you with a rake" Pinky closing in with AggLoam @ Hadley

Playing currently: GWB DirtyDeedDoran'sCheap

[Facevaulter]

quick edit: Glittering wish also grabs Kitchen Finks.

Still useless.

[chokin]

I don't like GWish. I'd rather run 4 ofs of whatever. I think The Rock can handle just about anything in the MD. Vindicate as random spot removal, Deed for mass, STP for creature spot removal. What the hell would I wish for?

I guess if I wanna use Wish as a "God, I Wish I had a big dumb elephant/vindicate/deed/whateva" on turn 2 that'd be ok, but it seems kinda lame.

Someone enlighten me on why you would want to run Wish ever.

Also, what did that seemingly random list of slivers have to do with The Rock? Am I missing something? :frown:

[The Rack]

The reason for running Wish is for more consistency and versatility. Essentially, if you play 3 wishes and 3 vindicates, you have 6 Vindicates. It's not common to want to wish for the same card twice. Gaddock Teeg is a great combo hoser as well for a wish target. I also commonly wish for Wheel of Sun and Moon for a third turn lock against Ichorid preboard. That's a pretty strong answer for a slower deck. I like to wish for Mystic Enforcer too because it's a beater that finishes the game. I can't run all of those cards in the mainboard so I run 3 cards that can be any of them. I really like Glittering Wish. Hope this helped.

[Holo_rip]

There is also the glittering wish -> dueling ground.
it help gob, ichorid and all kind of swarm deck wich tend to be tough, even with deed MD (specially goblin).

Holo.

[idraleo]

If you play Glittering to find out Vindicate, is the same of playing a Saltblast. Anybody wants to invest 5 mana and 2 turns to did a Vindicate.

[Solpugid]

That was always my issue with glittering wish. The targets are brutal, but they lose so much punch when they are held off to later in the game. Turn 3 combo hoser that prevents any turn 2 play? No thanks.

G wish fits much better in a true control shell, like that old IBA board-control deck (the name escapes me). The rock seems too tempo-oriented to benefit.

[The Rack]

The argiment for a 5 mana Vindicate isn't exactly true. You are paying 5 mana for a card that can read Deed or Vindicate or Dueling grounds or 4 mana which reads Wheel of Sun and Moon or Darkheart Sliver or Gaddock Teeg. For the extra 2 mana you get to pick from a variety of spells.