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kimberley
09-01-2005, 10:37 PM
Well...the old TheRock thread seemed to be a bit confused.
I started some riot there (sorry for that) and now Zilly ordered me to start a new thread.
The reason i am so selfconfident about my opinions upon the deck and the choices of that list is that TheRock is a DTB in my area and my team has won several tournaments with lists very close to this one, winning against Goblins as well as WUBS/Landstill several times. Of course that list will have to be adapted to your metagame ... so it is meant more as a hint on what the deck's idea is all about, which the old thread is lacking.

The main points of criticism about the old thread's list and approach to the deck's theme in general were:

1. Volrath's Stronghold
Why in heaven and hell don't you want to run this thing and win games with it? This is a lot faster than than Genesis.
Genesis may be Plowshares or simply removed from the yard.
I also may have missed your way to discard it. You are not really going to cast it, are you?
There is Wasteland, yes. But with WoB, Elder etc. you draw into more lands than Landstill itself. So having to witness it out is not that bad at all compared with the immense downsides of Genesis.

2. Why do about three quarter of you guys want to run Wall of Roots? Cause you play that huge load of instants?
You could discuss Wine Trellis, but i would prefer drawing a card anyday.
Making slow but consistend CA and having 12 excellent targets for Stronghold is what makes the deck breathe in Legacy. Deed is a nice inclusion but it isn't the point of the deck.

3. Why are you that fond of Troll Ascetic? There is no deck in Legacy where it is as useless as here. You play a sweeper yourself - so where is the point about untouchability?
It may regenerate, yes...but the deck does not need this. You can simply cast new beats or fetch them fromthe yard.
Investing that much mana in a 3/2 is not the best TheRock can do.

4. Why in heaven and hell do you wnat to play any less than 4 Yavimaya Elder? Elder + Therapy is what makes so many control and aggrocontrol decks loose.

I also addressed some recurring discussions in that old thread:

1. Manlands
Imo you may play Factory, you may play Village, or you may simply skip it. To me it did never seem all the important.
Manlands are of no gread use against Landstill or ZillaStompy - they will be simply burned or wasted. They do some good against things like Gro. I personally would run 2 Villages, but i do not believe it matters and is worth the energy you put into that discussion.

2. Sakura-Tribe Elder
...is junk and far inferior to birds and Yavimaya Elder.
He is weak and has no synergy with Therapy. Usually you have enough stuff to keep your enemies at bay long enough to drop your lands the old fashioned way.

3. Wish targets
Living Wish is good. Good means it is the only useful Tutor available. There are 5 essential Wish targets
-Volrath's Stronghold #3 or 4
-Wasteland
-random fetchland
-Viridian Zealot
-Withered Wretch (if not played MD)
In addition you may Wish random fat in addition. But i doubt having a Wish target for every more or less possible matchup is not the way to go. Actually boaring things like Tsunami, Plague or Naturalize is more important imo.

I would actually play like this in what i know as an "american" meta (containing UwLandstill, VialGolblins, SA, Solidarity, Zompy, Fish, Gro):

4x Birds of Paradise
4x Wall of Blossoms
4x Yavimaya Elder
4x Eternal Witness
4x Ravenous Baloth

4x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Diabolic Edict
4x Pernicous Deed
4x Living Wish
1x Haunting Echoes / Volrath's Sronghold

2x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Treetop Village / Forest
4x Bayou
8x Forest
5x Swamp

SB:
3x Tsunami
3x Naturalize
2x Gaea's Blessing
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Wasteland
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Spiritmonger
1x Viridian Zealot
1x Viridian Shaman
1x Withered Wretch

Of course there are other SB Options. Cranial Extraction is possible, as is Engineered Plague (though i doubt the need for it (compared with Tsunami, Naturalize and Blessing).

KrzyMoose
09-01-2005, 11:03 PM
I'm no expert...but it seems like 2xDiabolic Edict is not enough. I'm sure some other people might question that decision, so could you explain that?

And what do you think about Putrefy?

kimberley
09-01-2005, 11:34 PM
I'm no expert...but it seems like 2xDiabolic Edict is not enough. I'm sure some other people might question that decision, so could you explain that?

And what do you think about Putrefy?
1. I have no idea what "putrefy" is. I only know "purify" ...which is white...and sucks.

2. What exactly do you want to edict?
Gro has huge trouble with Discard and Deed. Until it can stabilize, you may as well Wish for Monger and win. But you are right when it is for Gro though. Some people around here play less Wishes and up to four edicts in fear of Stifle and Mage in Gro Decks. UW's Eternal Dragon is a joke against TheRock. Until that point of the game they have either found a solution for Stronghold on the one hand and Witness+Therapy on the other...or will simply loose to your mechanics of advantage that may then very well race 5/5 evasion. If it's for Factories...well block them. If it's for Conclaves...be happy they tap out that much.
WUBS is another topic. If they have Angel running, you are in trouble. But i thought that deck was not very popular in the US...so...
Their is no reason to want Edicts for aggro. Casting a blocker is better any day - no matter if you want Deed set off next turn or not.

TorpidNinja
09-02-2005, 12:10 AM
Putrefy is one of the spoiled cards from Ravnica that's been discussed quite a bit on this forum. At 1BG it destroys either a creature or an artifact and can't be regenerated.

kimberley
09-02-2005, 12:44 AM
Putrefy is one of the spoiled cards from Ravnica that's been discussed quite a bit on this forum. At 1BG it destroys either a creature or an artifact and can't be regenerated.
Well...it has to be tested.
...ah...i see...it is an instant, so it may be in.
Being able to destroy an artifact is very desired. CoW and Shackles or often sources of ruin if the WUBS/UW-Landstill player manages to back up...

Happy Gilmore
09-02-2005, 05:24 PM
I would actually play like this in what i know as an "american" meta (containing UwLandstill, VialGolblins, SA, Solidarity, Zompy, Fish, Gro):
Kimberley,

Your list is a breath of fresh air, the old thread was agrivating to say the least, there were more decklists than constructive criticism. Your list is much more streamlined than others I have seen and I especially like the use of the stronghold as a way of generating card advantage.

I just want to make a couple of suggestions to the wish targets (or rather requst why they are not included)

Dustbowl vs. Wasteland

why?

ink-eyes:

He is better than Spirit Monger in most situations IMO.

Nekratal(sorry for spelling)

He has always been an efficient target, even at 4cc.

thanks,

Happy Hunting

"Jeska"
09-02-2005, 05:51 PM
BoP has HORRIBLE synergy with Pernicious Deeds!!

I have tested with both Birds of Paradise and Sakura-Tribe Elders and found that the STEs are the way to go. I run a playset of both Yavimaya Elders and Sakura-Tribe Elders and found that it works much more consistent that the Birds.

kimberley
09-02-2005, 06:10 PM
@Happy Gilmore

I have to concede: We put not much energy in our wish boards, cause we found ourselves regularly wishing for either artifact removal or wasteland or stronghold out of pure boredom. In fact in our forum living wish is doubted to some extend.
your suggestions are very good.

Ink-Eyes is better than monger in most aspects. More mana is needed and color cannot be changed, which is only relevant against gro. Monger's counters are usually irrelevant.

Dust bowl is good, but i would not like to remove wasteland due to its lower cost. If you find enough room when tuning for your meta it may be absolutely possible (and desireable) to play both.

The only suggestion i do not like that much is nekrataal. with wish it costs 6. At the point where you want nekrataal as a wish target you may as well consider cutting a wish or two for edicts (or smother if you like 'em) in the MD.

I really have to thank you. your productive and friendly attitude is rare here. :)

@jeska
Your point about BoP <-> deed is right observed on its own.
But the synergy with Therapy and birds pure speed outweight this by a lot.

Zilla
09-02-2005, 07:08 PM
Kimberley, Have you given any thought to Putrefy (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=766), perhaps in the Edict slot?

kimberley
09-02-2005, 07:14 PM
Kimberley, Have you given any thought to Putrefy (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=766), perhaps in the Edict slot?



Putrefy is one of the spoiled cards from Ravnica that's been discussed quite a bit on this forum. At 1BG it destroys either a creature or an artifact and can't be regenerated.

Well...it has to be tested.
...ah...i see...it is an instant, so it may be in.
Being able to destroy an artifact is very desired. CoW and Shackles or often sources of ruin if the WUBS/UW-Landstill player manages to back up...

scrumdogg
09-02-2005, 07:27 PM
Putrefy should be a 3-4 of maindeck, unless you are in a meta infested with Solidarity (which should be a decent matchup for the deck considering the amount of discard). Sak Elder is vastly superior to Birds of Paradise at the moment for the following reasons.

Blocks Goblin Lackey & trades (or sucks out removal)
Bop does not
On a related note, Sak Elder deals damage
Bop fluffs it's feathers threateningly, bluffing Might of
Oaks...
Laughs at STP & gets a land, ramping you up
Bop cries like a small child
Wrath...see also STP (and include sweeper of your choice - Vengeance, Disk, Decree, Deed - whatever...)
Bop still sobbing.....and we RUN Deed!
Slightly increases the odds of drawing into non-land stuff - minor point, but the percentages do add up, especially if being returned via Stronghold/Witness, whatever
Bop does not (again, an admmitedly minor point)
Against pure combo, Sak.Elder can be dispatched to Therapy with no less benefit (and no more, admittedly) than Bop, however, they happen the same way, really. Turn 1 Therapy, Turn 2 critter-flash. Unless you go Turn 1 Bop, Turn 2 Therapy & Duress - but what are the odds of that happening all that often? You really want Turn 1 Duress if you expect combo (or control....), the critters don't start landing til Turn 2-3 anyway.

Zilla
09-02-2005, 07:34 PM
Against pure combo, Sak.Elder can be dispatched to Therapy with no less benefit (and no more, admittedly) than Bop, however, they happen the same way, really.
Not really true. First, saccing Birds to Therapy will typically net you an additional mana, which can be very important tempo-wise in early development. Second, you can sac Birds to Therapy a full turn earlier than Elder, which can be vital in the combo matchup.

I agree with most of the rest of what you said though. Although to be fair, Elder can't block a turn 1 Lackey when you're on the draw, where Birds can. This can be relevant, since Lackey's only truly effective on turn 1 in most cases.

scrumdogg
09-02-2005, 07:44 PM
Against pure combo, Sak.Elder can be dispatched to Therapy with no less benefit (and no more, admittedly) than Bop, however, they happen the same way, really.
Not really true. First, saccing Birds to Therapy will typically net you an additional mana, which can be very important tempo-wise in early development. Second, you can sac Birds to Therapy a full turn earlier than Elder, which can be vital in the combo matchup.

I agree with most of the rest of what you said though. Although to be fair, Elder can't block a turn 1 Lackey when you're on the draw, where Birds can. This can be relevant, since Lackey's only truly effective on turn 1 in most cases.
All right, I can concede the combo based point (although this is precisely the deck combo really doesn't want to see sitting across from them anyway...). If a Turn 1 drop is that important, wouldn't Elves of Deep Shadow be superior for all the reasons mentioned in defense of both Sak Elder and BoP?

Turn 1 Lackey when they are on the play is scary, but this deck runs Deed, the goblin nightmare...don't we almost want them to overextend into it? And at that point, Sak Elder does a fine job, blocking something scary & ramping mana. I have been running Plague Spitters in all of my nearly mono-blcak & green-black test builds. They have been very very good to me against goblins. Although they kill Witnesses & Sak Elders etc etc, those cards still come into play and accomplish something (and then die) but that would be the case versus goblins anyway.....

Zilla
09-02-2005, 08:10 PM
All right, I can concede the combo based point (although this is precisely the deck combo really doesn't want to see sitting across from them anyway...).
Is this true? As far as I can tell, the main reason the archetype is worth consideration is because it has the ability to beat combo with Duress, Therapy, and Echoes while maintaining game against aggro and control. If it can't beat Solidarity, etc., it seems like a dedicated aggro or control deck would be the better choice.


If a Turn 1 drop is that important, wouldn't Elves of Deep Shadow be superior for all the reasons mentioned in defense of both Sak Elder and BoP?
If it produced green mana, I'd say yes. Considering the number of GG cc's in the deck, however, I think Deep Shadow's limitation is likely to be significant.

kimberley
09-02-2005, 09:49 PM
Oh...

I guess i did leave some room for misunderstanding.
The reason to play this deck is not combo.
We did not test it much versus either Belcher or Solidarity, but we are pretty sure it sucks. Discard is nice in theory, but the problem is that Baloth is the only relevant clock you can present. If you cannot reuse your discard spells or draw new ones by pure chance Combo will laugh about it.
That's why most SB slots are dedicated towards the combo decks (Tsunami and Naturalize are useful in many other respects though).

The reason to play TheRock is smashing aggro. Test it against Goblins! You will see, that TheRock is much better equipped in respects of CA and attrition than Goblins. They will get a fair amount of damage done, conceded, but TheRock will usually stabilize and kill Goblins with its control funktions and fatties.
And it is even more evil towards other aggro. MonoW for example gets utterly slaughtered by TheRock. Armageddon simply is their only chance for winning.
On the other hand control Matchups are not that bad.
Scepter Chant is bad for sure, but Landstill has severe problems with discard and TheRocks CA tools.
It is exactly there, where Birds shine. 2nd turn Yavi Elder or 3rd Witness + Discard is huge. Gro has severe problems with deed, discard and stronghold. In fact Gro normally has to play beatdown, which is not good for a deck that has its best chance with Mages and Needles. Countering things against TheRock is like throwing your cards into a bottomless vault.
Of course you often have trouble against control decks cause they have better manipulation tools, while you often draw things not wanted in a specific situation and you have to sit and wait doing nothing for exactly half the game (ot). Thats why most SB cards and WB targets too can be used against control (and why i don't recommend SB Plagues).
Against Survival based tactics TheRock is usually performing fairly well too.

In short:
TheRock against aggro: very strong
TheRock against control: fair
TheRock against combo: sucks

Obfuscate Freely
09-02-2005, 09:58 PM
8 spot discard spells do not create a reliable anti-Solidarity game. You have to draw at least 3 of them (or get a particularly devastating Therapy) to create enough time to kill them.

Boarding probably helps quite a bit, though. Opening with a few discard spells should pave the way for Tsunami to wreck them. Persecute might be better though.

EDIT: kimberley covered my points in more detail than I did before I did it. Oh well.



Edited By Obfuscate Freely on 1125709240

Borg
09-03-2005, 07:34 AM
My impressions when playing this deck :

1- It happens occasionally that you sit there for multiple turns drawing nothing important. This scares me a lot as your opponent may come up with a win card any draw. More card draw seems to be the answer or getting more cards reused from your graveyard.
This brings me to point 2.

2- The deck could do a better job at trying to reuse the Witness more often.
Currently the only ways of getting Witness in the graveyard are
A- letting her die in combat (not very reliable)
B- saccing her to a Therapy but that removes the therapy from the game, which is exactly what I'm trying to avoid.
C- eliminate her with a Deed.

IMO an excellent card to wish for would be Phyrexian Tower

Sac Witness to the Tower, adding BB to your mana pool in the process, which can be used to pay for the Stronghold activation and put her back on top of your library, so in essence you're just tapping two lands, the Tower and the Stronghold to get the Witness from play back on top of your library.
This makes the mechanic very cheap and a duress or Therapy EVERY TURN quite possible, if wanted.

Minor detail, but nevertheless important, A Phyrexian Tower helps your Witnesses evade StP.

A Witness which shows up every turn is probably game, Phyrexian Tower can help you do that.

Plague Spitter was mentioned here as well, and that would be another nice alternative to get the Witness into the graveyard. However, a Plaguespitter in play may limit your options too much with your other critters in play though, we'll have to try that before getting an aswer I guess.

From the original decklist, these are my suggestions :

-1 Living wish
+1 Phyrexian Tower (+ a Tower in the Wishboard, instead of the Viridian Shaman)

-4 Birds of Paradise (can't operate under Plaguespitter)
+4 Sakura Tribe Elder

+1 Plaguespitter to the wishboard instead of ...?

-2 Diabolic Edict
-1 Haunting Echoes (very nice but not always needed IMO)
+3 Putrefy

TorpidNinja
09-03-2005, 10:34 AM
As much as I appreciate using newer/rumoured cards as soon as possible, I feel they derail the thread somewhat. Those cards seem fine for future consideration but what's the use of suggesting them now since they're not going to be legal for quite a while.

How does that help someone at their tournament next week when you talk about cards that are months away?

The other side of this is that, considering the heavy B/G theme of Ravnica, there's a good chance there will be something the actually revolutionizes the archetype. While this decklist is pretty streamlined it's more or less the Extended version minus Vampiric ultility mainboard and plus a better sideboard. I don't mean that to offend; that's not even a bad thing.

Simply put, however, there seems little point in switching out established cards for rumoured cards just yet until we at least have the full spoiler and can establish if whether or not the deck needs a full overhaul.

scrumdogg
09-03-2005, 11:10 AM
Most everyone is focused 2 months in the future, squarely on Philadelphia. Furthermore, with Ravnica likely making a large number of new options available (to the entire format) and it being legal in play about 6 weeks from now, it is appropriate to discuss it, imho. Mtgsalvation (and rancored_elf) have been very very good about getting accurate spoiler information. Onviously, until the information is confirmed we run with what we have available, but waiting until Sept 24 to discuss cards and Oct 20 to play them is unnecessarily restrictive.

Phyrexian Tower is a great call, as recurring Witnesses (with anything worthwhile in the yard) is what the deck wants to do (wreck your opponent...). With Tower & Stronghold, those are the only two cards needed to use Stronghold (although you need 3 other lands to cast Witness every turn and at least 1 more to cast Therapy/Duress/whatever...that is a serious amount of land, which makes Yav & Sak Elders important to this plan....).

I wasn't implying the deck as an autowin versus combo, especially Solidarity. But we have discard, we have ways to recur it, and possibly longterm ways to recur it (see above...). Furthermore, we have the ability to sideboard into serious, effective hate (although that option is up to the individual deckbuilder...). On that note, Haunting Echoes should definitely stay in the deck. It is the mid-late game "Ooops, I win" card.

What black & green creatures have a land destruction element to them, if any, other than Demonic Hordes? Given that people are using the Wish version of the deck & LD hurts Solidarity and Landstill (and Rabid Wombat, if Humility is removed from the equation)...how can we abuse this further?

Citrus-God
09-03-2005, 02:13 PM
The Rock is a Meta Game adapting deck. In this case, it should be built, countering our meta. In this case, we should add Red...
And Red gives me RBE/Pyroblast, Sirocco, and Terminate.
Giving us a chance against Solidarity and Landstill...
I'll look into Putrefy later...

// Only built for my Meta
// Lands 22
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Taiga
4 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain


// Creatures 18
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura~Tribe Elder
3 Eternal Witness
3 Ravenous Baloth
3 Flametongue Kavu
1 Genesis


// Spells 21
3 Living Wish
4 Terminate
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Cranial Extraction
4 Pernicious Deed


// Sideboard 15
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Ravenous Baloth
1 Genesis
1 Troll Ascentic
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Masticore
1 Dust Bowl
1 Withered Wretch
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast

Borg
09-03-2005, 02:34 PM
Let's take it from the top.
Which cards do you definitely want 4 copies of ?

Sakura Tribe Elder - gets you land, thins your deck
Yavimaya Elder - the engine
Wall of Blossoms - card draw is vital to this deck
Eternal Witness - tried it with 3 MD and 1 in SB and didn't like to wish for one. Better to have all 4 Witnesses available MD and being able to wish for other targets.
Duress - no doubt here
Cabal Therapy - key card
Pernicious Deed - key card

That leaves :
4 Ravenous Baloth
2 Diabolic Edict (replaced by Putrefy probably as soon as this is available)
4 Living Wish - minus one to add a Phyrexian Tower to the MD
1 Haunting Echoes

I think Diabolic Edict/Putrefy cannot be played at less than two copies - which is already 1 less than I would like.
If you want to raise that number to 3 you have to cut either a Ravenous Baloth or another Living Wish.
Playing only 2 wishes seems too low. You definitely want to get your hands on 1 wish at least because there is certainly always at least one card from your wishboard that you'd like to have in any given match-up. 4 Wishes may be too much, you don't want to get flooded with them either. 3 Looks like the right number imho.
So, the most logical choice would be to send one Baloth to the Wishboard, where he's still available in case he's needed.

And then there's the mana base :

2x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Treetop Village / Forest
4x Bayou
8x Forest
5x Swamp

The deck has 14 green mana sources and only 9 black sources and that worries me a bit.
Especially since we do not need Green anymore for the opening play as there is only Duress and Therapy left to play on T1.
Green is only needed on T2 for ST-Elder or WoB.

The problem here is that the color you need the least of (black) is the one who should be played first. With no other options on T1 we need to up the black resources IMO.

EDIT: upon further review, this deck could possibly be the first to find a good use for the new Ravnica Dual Lands.
I would suggest to add 2 Overgrown Tombs instead of the 2 Treetop Villages/Forests.

That keeps your green count at 14, which is fine and an improvement by itself, considering you now need it one turn later when not playing BoP and ups your black count from 9 to 11 which feels a lot more secure.

Also, all 19 lands in the deck besides the Strongholds/Tower have the "basic land type" and can be fetched by both Elders.
And since the Sakura-Tibe Elder's lands come into play tapped anyway, it makes sense to let him fetch the Tombs.

Whether the potential life loss is a problem remains to be tested.

All these changes would make the deck look like this :

4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
4x Wall of Blossoms
4x Yavimaya Elder
4x Eternal Witness
3x Ravenous Baloth
3x Living Wish

4x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Diabolic Edict/Putrefy
1x Haunting Echoes

4x Pernicous Deed

2x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Overgrown Tomb
4x Bayou
8x Forest
5x Swamp

SB:
3x Tsunami
2x Naturalize
1x Ravenous Baloth
1x Gaea's Blessing
1x Plague Spitter
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Wasteland
1x Dust Bowl
1x Spiritmonger
1x Viridian Zealot
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Withered Wretch

Torq
09-05-2005, 07:59 AM
Unfortunately neither Sakura Tribe Elder or Yavimaya Elder can search for the Bayous or Overgrown Tombs, as neither are basic lands. Although they have the land types Forest and Swamp, they are still non basics.

I'm still not sold on the inclusion of Sakura Tribe Elder over Birds of Paradise. From experience of playing the deck in Extended, we tested the STE's but fairly swiftly returned to BoP's, for speed, better synergy with Therapy, and oddly enough their ability to fly was useful. Admittedly Legacy is quite different to Extended, and a BoP has a much larger target on it here.

The Rock is a highly metagame dependent deck and fluctuates wildly across geographic areas. Ultimately this can make many discussions of it descend into decklist spamming, or arguing. It might be more productive to come to an agreement on the spine of the deck and discuss possible tweaks to help specific matchups.

Happy Gilmore
09-06-2005, 01:52 PM
The real problem I have with the three color version stems from the fact that it requires too many things to happen at once. This is made worse by the fact that the mana base is extremely volitile. Even the two color version has mana issues from time to time.

My inclination has always been to increase the ammount of black in the deck, mostly because of my love affair with Hymn to Torach :) . But that creates a whole new set of problems. It's difficult to both abuse blacks discard and greens recursion at the same time.

Ramos
09-08-2005, 10:59 PM
I always liked the rock deck, and i like the deck that you have put together. How the deck works with cabal therapy is nice. The red version seemed a bit random to me, you might like how that runs, but i think that there are other options to win against combo decks than splashing in red. Here is the decklist that i put together, and it is pretty close to kimberlies ( i had a different mana base at first, but then i looked at yours and saw that i liked it a bit better than mine)

First off, i thought that the wall of blossoms wasn't a good enough card to fit in the deck. It didn't provide a permanent solution to anything, and i thought that something else should be put in place of it. I think that Hymn to Tourach is a much better choice for the obvious reason that this deck has a hard time against combo, and that a little extra help with the other discard might improve that match.

Four Deeds seemed a bit clunky to me, and i think that the deck will run smooth enough with just three in it. with four Peutrefy and two edicts alongside the three deeds, the deck should be able to keep up.

Four living wishes was too much in my opinion. Three might be right, but i couldn't find room for it at the moment. Looking at my board, it wouldn't be that great to draw two in one game, because i don't have enough stuff in the board to pull out more than one thing in one match. (unless something gets StPS'd)

I might be missing somethingn on why ravenous baloth made the cut over spiritmonger, but besides coming out a turn earlier with one bird, i'm not seeing it. Monger can still hit turn three, but its just a bit harder :P

Here is what i put together, but lets see what you guys think

3x Pernicious Deed
4x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach

2x Diabolic Edict
4x Peutrfy (If it is indeed an instant, that kills a creature and an artifact)

4x Spiritmonger
4x Eternal Witness
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Yavimaya Elder

2x Living Wish

2x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Treetop Village
4x Bayou
5x Forest
5x Swamp
2x Polluted Delta
2x Windswept Heath


SB:
3x Tsunami
1x Wasteland
1x Withered Wretch
2x Chains of Mephistopheles
2x Naturalize
2x Persecute
2x Cranial Extraction
1x Maze of Ith (Wishable in The Game matches, and it wouldn't hurt on some other occasions)

I think that you have a very tiny bit weaker matchup against aggro, just because you don't have the wall buffering against early attacks, but your combo matchup would be much stronger with this deck. I guess it depends on what you think people will be playing. And i definately think that The Rock has a good chance to become competative again.

Happy Gilmore
09-09-2005, 01:08 AM
Idon't see exactly how the list you presented is close to the one Kimberly posted.

Some things I think were innovative, others...not so much.

Positives:

[2 Living wish] I think this may be the best #, I prefer my threats in the main deck rather than in the side board. More and more I have seen Wish become kind of cumbersome, and sometimes downright slow. In kimberly's list it acts as a way of getting the rest of his lock pieces more than it does with getting threats.

[Hymn to Torach] :) , but seriously 4 is way too many. Three should be the maximum, 2 seems solid.

Negatives:

[Spirit Monger] He is somewhat outdated and slow. Wreck face he does, destroy agro he doesn't. Ravenous Baloth plays a key role in stopping aggro in its tracks, I wouldn't play less than three if someone paid me to.

[12 discard effects] Too high, way too high.

-1 Hymn
-1 Duress

[16 creatures] way way too low. 21 has always been a magic # for me with the rock. My "proposed" creature base:

4 Yavimaya Elder
4 Eternal Witness
4 Birds of Paradice
3 Ravenous Baloth
2 Ink-eyes, Servant of the Oni (or Spiritmonger if you like)
4 Wall of blossoms

side note:

Peutrfy seems extremely solid as a removal card but I wouldn't attempt to add it to the deck until some testing has been done. Strong though it is the three mana slots are becoming crowded. Edict doesn't throw off your tempo nearly as much. the card will need to be tested before it automatically becomes a 4 off.

Ramos
09-09-2005, 02:02 PM
Well, i can understand cutting one hymn. Not the duress, but possibly a peutrfy (assuming that that card makes the cut, the 3cc will cause it to be a 3 of i think) So if you cut a hymn and a peutrfy you have room for two more creatures. If we cut the mongers and put in Baloth, then i think that we can cut one land, probably a forest, leaving us with three open slots. Since the deck might run 2 man lands, i will count those as creatures ;) . Here is what i propose the creature base to be.

4x Ravenous Baloth (The reason i had monger in before is because i was used to it, and wasn't sure why baloth made the cut in you guys decklist, but he seems solid enough)
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Yavimaya Elder
4x Eternal witness
3x ...

Now lets discuss what creatures could possibly fill the spot here

You suggested ink-eyes, which i really like for a few reasons.
-With birds, he can fly! and nijitsu becomes a bit easier since birds has some form of evasion
-Since there is so much removal in the deck, he gains targets, and ways to bull him through to steal their dead
-He has a pretty big ass, and can regenerate, so not bad.

I think that running two of these wouldn't be too bad. So that is possibly

Masticore - I don't think i've seen anyone discuss this guy, and he isn't too great in this deck, but i think that he would be worth a bit of a mention, here's why
-He is a 4/4 regenerate for 4.
-He can ping smaller creatures away, beginning possibly turn 4, which would help in some aggro matches.
However on the Flipside
-He makes you play more conservative once he hits the table. The rock needs to be able to hold some tricks in had, and masticore limits what you can do with that.

I was thinking that maybe he would be worth running 1 or 2 (if you wanted to cut a baloth for it) in the deck, but if he didn't make the maindeck he could always be a possible board card to pick up with a wish when the situation calls for it. Masticore definately isn't a sure spot in the maindeck, but he isn't bad, i'll let you guys put your two cents in about this.

Spiritmonger
He is a clock against combo decks, with the removal in the deck you can easily beat a path for him to deal damage, and though he is a bit slow to deal with aggro, he is a good follow up to a third or fourth turn baloth. Maybe not worthy of a 4 of, but definately playable.

I could actually see running
3x Baloth
2x Ink-Eyes
2x Spiritmonger
and then the rest of what was above.
It would still put you at 18 actual creatures, but then you have two man-lands also, and i think it is pretty solid. What do you guys think.

TheDrunkDwarf
09-09-2005, 06:59 PM
What do people think about including the new "hunted" cards? Deed is great at destroying the tokens generated from the creatures. I common play may go something like turn 2: hunted horror, turn 3: deed for 0. :) just a thought...

Tao
09-09-2005, 09:54 PM
What do people think about including the new "hunted" cards? Deed is great at destroying the tokens generated from the creatures. I common play may go something like turn 2: hunted horror, turn 3: deed for 0. :) just a thought...

This play causes a lot of dangers, for example these:

- then your opponent swords your horror and you just traded two full turns (your 1st and 2nd), your deed and a creature vs. one StP.

- or the deed gets countered and your opponent kills you with 3/3 pro black creatures

- or he duresses the deed away

- or you don't have a deed

- or your opponent combos you out as you wasted your 2nd and 3rd turn on dropping creature and deed without caring for handdestruction

See the point: the combo is by far too random too work in this deck.

TheDrunkDwarf
09-10-2005, 01:20 AM
Im not suggesting that this would be the central point of the deck...I'm just saying that with some removal (deed being especially powerful here) the "hunted" creatures become extremely deadly. Obviously StP would stop hunted horror, but StP stops anything. As for countering, etc, I wouldnt blindly play a deed (thats what duress and therapy are for). Anyhoo, just a thought, if you really believe its unworkable then I guess I can see if someone else can give the idea a shot or some constructive criticism :)

Ramos
09-10-2005, 03:54 PM
Well, the thing about hunted horror is it is the kind of card that you build a theme about. You cannot just simply throw the card in because you have a few ways to take care of the draw back. The rock isn't a fast beatdown deck, which hunted horror is something that you would play with a deck built around it to get fast kills. The rock needs to answer what your oppenent puts in play, and have hand disruption to stop things from hitting the table or people from comboing out; it doesn't need to give the opponent things for it to have to answer. Ithink the central point of your argument is that yes, with some removal (and deed is a great card to use with the hunted creatures) you can make this card work. But it just doesn't fit in this style of deck.

Ramos
09-10-2005, 04:16 PM
Heh, i was just looking through some cards to see what interesting cards i could find to work with cabal therapy and i was thinking about this guy
Veteran Explorer - G
Whener Veteran Explorer is put into a graveyard from play, each player may search for up to two basic land cards and put them into play.
1/1

What i was thinking is that since a few decks run mainly dual lands, and not too many basic lands, that this guy would actually be alot better than a birds with cabal therapy. It gives you an advantage if you can cabal therapy him, because you can do this guy first turn, therapy second turn, flash it back, and end with a hymn to tourach, duress, or a yavimaya elder or something.

- Now, i'm not one to think i have the best ideas ever, and since i havn't tested this guy, lets look at the bad side to including this guy. Without Cabal Therapy in hand, this guy is a bit slower than birds of paradise, and he can end up kindof pointless.

-Sure, he can block and kill a first turn lackey in aggro matches(which i doubt anyone would swing into this guy with a lackey), which birds can't, but he doesn't have evasion, so when you are making Angel Stompy discard their angels, you can't fly over them to ninja out an ink-eyes.

-I would hate to see someone lightning bolt this guy before the end of my turn, and end up with four mana on turn 2, because that can suck since you're going to end up losing any advantage this card would give you.

The reason that i think he might be playable is because if he dies on your turn, you get a tremendous advantage when holding hand disruption. This tends to favor the more hand-hate heavy deck i posted earlier, because you can generate a better match against combo when you have the cards. Now if you give combo that extra mana without being able to take care of their hand, you are just asking them to combo out on you.

I wonder if he would help against aggro, since if you block with him, you can deed out faster, and keep up with those shuffles they get. But it also gives them the first chance to use the mana.

I don't know, i couldn't tell you if this card would be worth trying unless i tested it, but lets see if you think that he is beneficial enough to lose the consistancy of birds of paradise. I just wanted to throw it out there :p

Ramos
09-10-2005, 04:28 PM
I forgot i wanted to talk about this guy too

Mindslicer - 2BB
Whenever he is put into a graveyard, each player discards their hand.
4/3

Whether you are using the birds or the explorer, he can hit third turn consistantly, and possibly second turn if they kill your explorer to use the mana. He is a sure counter against any control/combo deck. The Rock has ways to get rid of this guy, to make his ability trigger.

He can go to the face against solidarity. He is wishable if you need to take care of something fast. Sure, you lose your hand, but the creatures that you can draw out into are pretty nice. Plus you can still hit your removal to take care of any threats they top into.

You wouldn't want to sacrifice him as soon as you cast him, because he would have got countered if they had any. Personally i would wait like two turns if i had a deed on the board. He works great with duress, because you get to see if you need to blow him up, or if you can just beat face with him. He also fills a space in the light creature base you were telling me the deck couldn't have ;)

TheDrunkDwarf
09-10-2005, 04:34 PM
If you ran mindslicer, would you want to add the rack or nezumi shortfang to take advantage of the empty hands?

Also, I thought of a draw engine that might be viable: Greater Good + Empyrial Plate. The interaction between plate and elder is like old-school land tax and empyrial armor. Not only that, but greater good would draw more and more as plate got bigger and bigger. Greater good also would act as another sacrificing outlet incase we needed it (for mindslicer, etc). Any thoughts?

Ramos
09-10-2005, 05:01 PM
Well, mindslicer is just a board card i think, because combo and other control decks seem to give a problem. I think it could replace persecute in the board, because it is wishable and isn't color specific. I don't really want to run too much hand disruption, because it takes away from the aggro match, which is what this maindeck is really good for. I like what everyone has posted on the main deck, and i'm sure that we can all come up with an optimal build, but there arn't many slots to spare in the main deck atm. I think that the hand kill is just there to stop them from comboing out, but we don't need to try anything too fancy.

TheDrunkDwarf
09-10-2005, 05:54 PM
Well? What do people think about the greater good/empyrial plate engine? is it viable?

lynxcat
09-10-2005, 05:59 PM
Well, the thing about hunted horror is it is the kind of card that you build a theme about. You cannot just simply throw the card in because you have a few ways to take care of the draw back. The rock isn't a fast beatdown deck, which hunted horror is something that you would play with a deck built around it to get fast kills. The rock needs to answer what your oppenent puts in play, and have hand disruption to stop things from hitting the table or people from comboing out; it doesn't need to give the opponent things for it to have to answer. Ithink the central point of your argument is that yes, with some removal (and deed is a great card to use with the hunted creatures) you can make this card work. But it just doesn't fit in this style of deck.
Your points about Hunted Horror answer why Veteran Explorer is a poor choice. Veteran Explorer looks good with a second turn Therapy, but the rest of the time it's just bad. Your opponent will usually decide whether or not it lives or dies, and thus the advantage granted by it will usually be theirs. I could see using it in some sort of creature based combo deck (Food Chain Myojins?), but not here. It's just too situational to provide a real advantage over BoP or Sakura.

Borg
09-11-2005, 05:10 PM
Looks like this thread got completely derailed.

Tao
09-12-2005, 06:26 AM
Looks like this thread got completely derailed.
Yapp, I can only agree with you. Cards like Hunted Ones (?), Empyryal Plate(???), The Rack (???), Mindslicer MD or Veteran Explorer should definetely not be discussed, as they are really bad cards in this deck. And I guess everyone already knows what Masticore does, his advantages and disadvantages really didn't need to be explained.

I think Putrefy is indeed a solid card that is worth using MD as it takes out Problem Cards like Exalted Angels as well as Vedalken Shackles or CoW. My question would be what to cut for it and how many should be used.

According to Kimberley's list I think I would just cut the 2 Edicts and replace them by Putrefy. Even though Edicts are faster and a possible soltution to lackey if you start, I think the flexibility of Putrefy just outclasses the Edict.

What are your opinions about these two?

lolosoon
09-12-2005, 09:42 AM
Edict doesn't target. Edict take care of Pro:Black, Untargetable, Regenerating, Indestructible creatures...
Edict is fast. I you run first, you'll be able to crush this dumb Lackey. (although Innocent Blood is better in this case imho)

Putrefy target. Putrefy will take care of THIS nasty Piledriver instead of that random now-useless Lackey.
Putrefy is versatile. It kills FlameTongueKavu OR CoW OR BloodMoon.

I Would say it depends of the critters played in the current metagame. Rock plays Pernicious Deed, and this one is already versatile. Sweep the board then Edict this nasty persistent DarkSteel Colossus of them.

I think we'll do see it played in T2 Pseudo-Rock Deck but in Legacy... well, I'll run 2 of them, not much more.

Revert_To_Saved
09-12-2005, 05:35 PM
BloodMoon.
It's versatile, yes, but it doesn't hit enchantments; only creatures and artifacts.

I haven't been too happy with its mana cost, but part of that's probably because I run STE over BoP, thus eliminating the chance of playing a 3cc spell on turn two.

lolosoon
09-14-2005, 02:40 AM
Damn. I have to Read the F*** Card correctly. I thought it was a mix of Naturalize + Terror. :D

I agree with you about the tweak Putrefy brings to your mana curve, and for the same CC we already have Deed...

Thanks fot pointing this out.

See Ya.

LoloSoon. - RTFC :p

kimberley
09-14-2005, 03:20 PM
Just to encourage you...take a look at this (http://www.zkforum.de/showthread.php?t=35914). :)

For Understanding:
The Polls Question is: "Which decks are playedin yr region often and/or successfully?"
psyche=me

re: Putrify
As i explained earlier, Living Wish is a solid card but not necessary if you have other needs. Cutting both Edict and 2 of the Wishes (in the list i presented) is absolutely possible...if that is desired.
In fact many people here are running only 2 or 3 Wishes to have more room for Edict/Smother.
Whether Edict or Putrify is better cannot be discussed in theory but must be tested imo. Putrify's cc is bad, but its advantages may be helpful often. There are several artifacts, that are extremely dangerous...
I see cc more as a general problem, not as that bad against Goblins.

bigredmeanie
09-14-2005, 03:43 PM
Has anyone considered Gleancrawler

Gleancrawler 3(b/g,b/g,b/g)
Trample
At the end of your turn return to your hand all creature cards put into your graveyard from play this turn.
6/6

If nothing else he is a 6/6 Trample for 6 that you will never have problems casting. But I think that his synergy with Deed makes him very strong in the late game.

Ramos
09-14-2005, 04:18 PM
The problem that I see with this card is that he costs 6. If he was a 5cc I think he might stand a change since it would be more likely he would hit the board in time to really come in handy with a deed or a baloth. If i'm playing goblins, they start doing alot of stuff around turn 4, thats when I want to be able to blow my deeds so that I don't die. If i'm playing control/combo, i've already sacced my birds or yavimaya elder to therapy hopefully so that i can stop them from either comboing out, or gaining too much control over the game. I can see this guy being good with baloth since he sould be sticking around a while longer, but his ability is too slow to help much with anything else, and if you want a 6/6 body then I say grab a Monger, which no one seems to like anymore ;)

There are a few open slots for creatures though, and maybe he is worth a 2 of just because of how well he works with ravenous baloth.

TheDrunkDwarf
09-14-2005, 06:59 PM
The new dredge mechanic might fit nicely. Something like Buried Alive could be used to put Grave shell scarab or other powerful dredge creatures in your graveyard, and then could be put in your hand with dredge. Also, buried alive (or a similar fetcher) might make genesis a viable card advantage engine in this deck. Thoughts?

Ramos
09-18-2005, 03:28 AM
I think that adding buried alive into this deck to add a nice dredge creature into the deck just to work with this would be changing the point of the deck. I can see a deck centralized around this card an graveyard things, but it doesn't fit into the rock archetype because the rock is a more of a control deck than a reanimation deck

And genesis i think would be a wasted card slot. This deck should be able to clear the way for the big beats that it will be giving. You have no practical way of discarding genesis, and with pernicious deeds and other removal, your baloths and ink-eyes/big beats should find a path to beating face :P

Eremus_Duskwalker
09-20-2005, 05:50 PM
i really don't think ravinca offers anything to legacy versions of the rock. i have been testing the following versions against a gauntlent of: R/G Survival, Landstill(several variants), Goblins, and Solidarity. Not a lot of decks, but legacy isn't really "big" so i go with what people have.

4x Birds of Paradise
4x Wall of Blossoms
4x Yavimaya Elder
4x Spike Feeder
2x Eternal Witness
2x Phyrexian Plaguelord

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Chainer's Edict
4x Pernicious Deed
3x Living Wish
2x Duress

9x Forest
6x Swamp
4x Bayou
3x Treetop Village
1x Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard
4x Engineered Plague
2x Duress
1x Deranged Hermit
1x Virdian Shaman
1x Withered Wretch
1x Genesis
1x Eternal Witness
1x Avatar of Woe
1x Boneshredder
1x Phyrexian Negator
1x Treetop Village

Landstill: Okay, Brainstorm is this decks worst enemy. I hate it. Force of Will isn't as bad because Cabal Therapy has the flashback, but Brainstorm is a huge pain. Sometimes I'll use an early wish to grab Treetop Village just so I can have something to work around Standstill. Also he avoids some of their Wrath Effects(if only they didn't run Nevy's Disk). Wasteland is bad for Treetop and Bayou while STP is another problem you just have to deal with, but the discard can get STP when they matter most in the late game. This is the match where I wish I ran Diabloic Edict or Smother instead of Chainer's Edict, but I like that I have 8 creature removal spells in 4, sometimes even more with Witness. If I were to take this to a major tournament I would probably switch but most of the time this deck is casual play. If they run counter heavy versions then Genesis is the better wish target. I usually also try to use the draw mechanic of Yavimaya Elder most in this match to generate the most advantage I can which is important here. Deed is only good against Decree of Justice here, and I don't have a great sideboard for Landstill. Overall my version has game against Landstill, but obviously is not going to beat Landstill consistantly in a tournament. I do think that with some tooling this match could greatly improve for this deck.

Goblins: What are they going to do? Lightning Bolt Spike Feeder, or Elder? Wall of Blossoms laughs at Lightning Bolt, usually taking two cards to remove your one. Game two and three take out the 2 Duress and 2 Living Wish for the 4 Engineered Plague that I'm thinking of cutting to 3, then i'd only take out 1 wish. This is a fun match that I win a lot with my version, but which may not be great for others. Phyrexian Plaguelord and wishing for Deranged Hermit owns them in the late game, while early on the blockers hold off the horde. Turn two Engineered Plague usually puts a hamper on their day. Overall this match is in my favor, game one is much closer to 50-50 with a slight advantage to them if they can get going early.

R/G Survival: It's all about Withered Wretch. I really should put an enchanment hoser other than Deed in, but I haven't had that much of a problem with this deck. ATS is probably a lot harder(Brainstrom!!!) A fun match to play. Again the more creature control-ish version that I run makes this match more in my favor. Witness should be used to grab Edicts and repeat. Plaguelord and Deranged Hermit do some dirty work here too. Living Wish for Bone Shredder, Eternal Witness, Deranged Hermit, Avatar of Woe, and Genesis are all good choices at varying points of the game. I was actually considering cutting the Bone Shredder, but if you expect a lot of R/G survival and goblins i'd keep him.

Solidarity: Brainstorm!!! I really believe that I'd rather face Skullclamp all day with this deck than Brainstorm. Sometimes you get lucky and they don't have it. Usually when you don't have Duress or Cabal Therapy. I still leave Wall of Blossoms in, even though they seem not so great here. But you draw a card and get something to sac to therapy on turn 2. Again, just good ole' fashioned card advantage. Rip their hand apart and wish for Negator to destroy them before they can recover. Again, I have a lot of dead cards maindecked against this deck: Pernicious Deed and Chainer's Edict so I wouldn't consider this deck tournament ready, but I like how well it performs against R/G Survival decks and Goblins. So if Goblins does become as big as the pro's and writers feel then this could be a deck to play in that enviroment.

Majestyk1136
10-13-2005, 06:43 PM
Zilla Bitch slapped me for starting a new thread, so I'll necro this one. Here's what I wrote. RE: Grah and my discussion for along these lines.


I've been playing and trolling Legacy for a bit now and one deck that I almost never see that made a port from Extended is The Rock.

I'm not talking about the Red Aggro Rock version that people were using at the end of last extended season with Flametongue Kavu, but the more traditional version of The Rock with the strong hand destruction elements of Duress and Cabal Therapy and the Board Sweeping power of Pernicious Deed. For reference I submit this list for your perusal:

//NAME: G/B Control
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Troll Ascetic
2 Putrefy
1 Genesis
3 Ravenous Baloth
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Living Wish
4 Eternal Witness
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
7 Forest
5 Swamp
SB: 1 Genesis
SB: 3 Skyshroud War Beast
SB: 1 Bone Shredder
SB: 1 Ravenous Baloth
SB: 1 Viridian Shaman
SB: 1 Thrull Surgeon
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Putrefy
SB: 2 Cranial Extraction

I am not submitting this deck as the optimized or World-Beating version but as a starting place to talk about what might be a reasonable method of consistently beating several of the top decks in the format.

Card by card:

BoPs and Sakura-tribe Elders: The force behind mana fixing and acceleration for what has always been a tough color combination. The key here is attempting to make yourself immune to disruption from Wasteland and have a solid foundation from which to begin.

Duress/Therapy: The 3/4 split on these cards is a concession to the reality that Duress isn't all that exciting against the Gobbos. Otherwise, these cards are a house (obv) against almost every deck in the format. The combo Decks can't afford to lose cards and the control decks will be peeled apart by these allowing you to slide in your threats under removal and counters.

Wall of Blossoms/Eternal Witness: Your draw engine. Your Regrowths. Your speed bumps that will get in the way of irritating little red men. Carven Caryatid may be an acceptable replacement but the issue of speed is too critical if you're not on the play to sacrifice that turn. Nothing feels better than hitting your opponent with Therapy and then Regrowing it with Witness only to replay and Flash it back in one horrific sweep.

Troll Ascetic/Genesis/Ravenous Baloth/Living Wish:

Your beatdown and toolbox cards. Living Wish obviously fetches the answer to the thing that irritates you the most and the men are as solid as they get. Almost no removal is sufficient to deal with a recurring Troll Ascetic and the Life Gain from Baloth will keep you in the game in the face of everything from burn to the slow clock presented you by Landstill. I don't know if this is enough guys to smash face with however.

Pernicious Deed/Putrefy:

Disgusting board control elements. Things that get past your barrage of hand death will meet a horrible death at the hands of these babies. Toss in the Utility of the Wish Toolbox Sideboard and you'll have plenty of ways of destroying irritating permanents.

The Board:
1 Genesis: Duh?

3 Skyshroud War Beast: An interesting little piece of Technology that I discovered. Want to see Landstill start wastelanding itself? Try throwing one of these down on the table as a 2-cost 4/4 Trampler (Not so unlikely against Landstill) and you'll start seeing it happen. Almost too efficient against Landstill as you'll want to play it early. They have to counter/Swords or Wrath this thing away fast as it's going to start eating their life total pretty quick. Discourages Crucible recursion of everything from Manlands to Wastelands. The basic lands will have to leap into play on the Landstill player's side to stave off the beatings.

1 Bone Shredder:
Boom. Dead Man walking.

1 Ravenous Baloth:
Gain more life. Kill more men. Recur me please.

1 Viridian Shaman:
The perfect solution for that irritating artifact.

1 Thrull Surgeon:
You now have a Doctor's license and you're doing some Neurosurgery. Control and combo's Best Friends.

4 Engineered Plague:
Takes your Goblins Matchup from "Meh" to "Hahaha."

1 Putrefy:
Make more stuff dead in case duress is a bad card in the main.

2 Cranial Extraction:
Make more friends with Control and Combo Decks.

General Comments on the board: I'm not sure if there needs to be a more cohesive plan for dealing with Enchantments in the sideboard or if Edicts would be more attractive for dealing with pro-black men and/or irritations like Akroma.

General Comments about the deck: I'm not sure about why this deck hasn't been attempted in Legacy at this point (or if it has why I can't find other people's attempts at it) or if Survival is just deemed to be better than this in general. I'm going to give it a chance however.

Matchups:

Landstill: Your board control is actually a little bit better than theirs thanks to the fact that theirs is almost totally reactive (Wrath, Swords, Disk) and has to sit in their hand (where you get rid of it) or out on the board Vulnerable to removal. Deed does a number on this deck as most versions don't play Stifle. You have creatures that they can't seem to deal with easily (Troll) or ones that extend the game (Baloth) to where their clocks can't defeat you easily. You will win the game in the long run thanks to your superior recursion and specialty creatures.

Goblins: Uh-oh. This hurts in game 1. The worst possible play that you can see against you is Turn 1 Lackey. Aether Vial isn't such a big deal as you can wipe it out and any man it generates with a Deed. Trolls are infinite blocking Abysses for Gobbos and Wall of Blossoms and Baloth will buy you some time. But you have to hope you get the deed to get that one midgame swing in your favor before the Goblins get to critical mass.

After Boards you have a Brutal hoser in Engineered Plague. Goblins is unlikely to bring in Disenchant against you unless they suspect your nefarious plot. They're probably bringing in Needles for Deed and Baloth. You ought to laugh at this plan and dump those Duresses and Wishes for the extra Putrefy, Plagues, and the extra Baloth. Smash away.

Soldarity: Haven't tested against combo much. But it seems to be a typical combo Vs. Control matchup. You play hand Death. They cry. After boards you can gut them with Extraction and dump some dead cards (Putrefy.) Living wish will almost always be for Surgeon (followed by Genesis hopefully) as he's a wrecking ball.

ATS: A wild Card. Your graveyard recursion elements will negate one another. However, your hand control and board sweeper can garner you a great deal of advantage here as ATS is pretty dependant on the Survival Engine for card advantage. This deck makes me want to include some sort of Graveyard hate in the board as it would break the matchup wide open instead of being a Stalemate like it is now. Another less obvious element is that your mana Acceleration tends to be in the form of Lands (From Elders) whereas theirs is in Birds, Elves and Walls. Kill those and the deck slows down considerably.

Let me know what you think.

Citrus-God
10-15-2005, 11:28 PM
Well, I've seen this build kick some ass in a weekly T1.5 tourney. It whooped my Landstill, so bad. It was okay against Goblins. Solidarity... I don't wanna talk about it...


// Lands 20
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
4 Bayou
4 Forest


// Creatures 22
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Eternal Witness
3 Ravenous Baloth
2 Genesis
2 Kokusho, Evening Star


// Spells 19
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Living Wish


// Sideboard 15
1 Genesis
1 Ravenous Baloth
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Spore Frog
1 Withered Wretch
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Kami of Ancient Law
1 Deranged Hermit
2 Cranial Extraction
3 Enginneered Plague
1 Gaea's Blessing

Deep Inside
10-16-2005, 07:22 AM
I'm not sure about splashing white in legacy(In Extended ok, but in legacy?), but if you do, you probably should play Loxodon Hierarch over Baloth.

Majestyk1136
10-17-2005, 05:02 PM
That manabase= :(

With as shaky as the G/B manabase can be would you really want to add a higher degree of uncertainty to it by splashing a third color? What does the Swords provide you that existing Black or Gold Removal doesn't? Akroma destruction? The Hierarch would be fine for saving your own men from Deed and to a lesser extent Disk, but avoiding making your mana susceptible to Wasteland would seem to be more important.

J.Dangerously
10-17-2005, 05:39 PM
I played this deck for about 6 months in the pre-split days and found it lacking quite a bit. It was able to handle the random round 1 & 2 decks, but not the top tier boys.

One of the things I think this deck could really use is either darkblast or lose hope. They should both provide what the deck lacks, simple early-game creature hate. It will shore up your goblins game, keep RGSA off thier early mana critters, and provide a side benefit (dredge or scry,) all the way. We should also be trying Last Gasp (-3/-3 to targe creature,) as a possible new form of creature control, taking any slots the edict/smother used to use.

I believe the deck NEEDS to have genesis in it, if for no other reason than to recur wall of blossoms to provide some sort of card advantage. Genesis also fixes the issue of drawing into a bunch of non-threats right after you deed. Which was always my issue, not drawing into the right threats.

As far as gleancrawler is concerned, I almost wonder if Kokusho isn't a better choice? It proves to be a hassle even if they get rid of it, and I have been known to flashback Cabal therapy for the win.

Thoughts?

Majestyk1136
10-19-2005, 04:35 PM
Sooooo e-x-p-e-n-s-i-v-e. Gleancrawler, Kokusho, even Spiritmonger carry huge price tags that are untenable against fast decks like goblins (without cheating them out) and worthless against decks like Landstill because they'll just Swords or Wrath it away before you have a chance to use it.

Four is probably the upper limit for casting cost on guys in this deck with that 4 needing to be on a body with 4 or more power and some relevant ability. That leaves us with Hierarch and Baloth at the top of the curve. More likely Baloth because you don't have to Junk up your mana base to support the Hierarch without sacrificing some of the consistency on your hand disruption mana.

Recursion, disruption, efficient beatdown. That's the tripod of the Rock, and if it's going to work in Legacy you can't waste a bunch of time on conditional/overpriced crap like Gleancrawler, Avatar of Woe, etc... Your window for opportunity against decks like Goblins is pretty narrow as is. Having one of these things sitting in your grip while you're dying is not a pleasant situation.

EDIT: I've been thinking lately that I might try Ravenous Rats in Thrull Surgeon's spot. The argument for this move would be that it's simply more mana efficient and gives you the opportunity to feed a Therapy Flashback immediately while garnering additional discard.

For reference, my most recent Decklist:
//NAME: G/B Control
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Troll Ascetic
1 Genesis
2 Putrefy
3 Ravenous Baloth
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Living Wish
4 Eternal Witness
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
8 Forest
6 Swamp
SB: 1 Genesis
SB: 1 Skyshroud War Beast
SB: 1 Dust Bowl
SB: 1 Bone Shredder
SB: 1 Ravenous Baloth
SB: 1 Viridian Shaman
SB: 1 Thrull Surgeon
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Putrefy
SB: 2 Persecute

MD Genesis might get fired for another land or accelerator. [oh]

Pinder
10-27-2005, 01:48 AM
Here's a decklist I drummed up a little bit ago (keeping in mind that in my meta Goblins is the DTB):

//Lands

4 x Wooded Foothills (or any fetch that will nab B/G Duals)
4 x Bayou
4 x Overgrown Tomb
3 x Forest
3 x Swamp

// 1cc
4 x Cabal Therapy
4 x Duress
4 x BoP

// 2cc
3 x Wall of Blossoms
4 x Diabolic Edict
3 x Living Wish

// 3cc
4 x Pernicious Deed
4 x Putrefy
3 x Troll Ascetic
2 x Yavimaya Elder
2 x Eternal Witness

// 4cc
3 x Ravenous Baloth

// 6cc
2 x Gleancrawler


//The Board
1 x Volrath's Stronghold
1 x Ravenous Baloth
1 x Eternal Witness
1 x Wall of Blossoms
3 x Plague Spitter
4 x Infest
4 x Engineered Plague

Questions and criticism is welcomed, I would really like your input.

Majestyk1136
10-27-2005, 02:07 AM
4 x Bayou
4 x Overgrown Tomb
4 x Duress
3 x Wall of Blossoms
4 x Diabolic Edict
4 x Putrefy
3 x Troll Ascetic
2 x Yavimaya Elder
2 x Eternal Witness
2 x Gleancrawler


//The Board
1 x Volrath's Stronghold
1 x Ravenous Baloth
1 x Eternal Witness
1 x Wall of Blossoms
3 x Plague Spitter
4 x Infest
4 x Engineered Plague

Questions and criticism is welcomed, I would really like your input.
Too many of some things, too few of others. Gleancrawler is @$$. 6 mana for a guy that's just gonna get sent to the farm? Inconceivable. Too many Duresses, (by 1) too few Wall of Blossoms and far too much targeted removal. Maybe your meta is infested with Goblins, but I'd say that you don't need that much... It's dead (well, at least not as good) against pretty much all of the other decks. Look up a Bone Shredder for your board in addition to a Viridian Shaman. More tomorrow.

Deep Inside
10-27-2005, 08:24 AM
I wouldn't say its too much removal
In my meta (which is also infested with Goblins, but also WW) I run a build with 4 Smother and 3 Putrefy main. i've also cut the Duress and put them in the SB because they don't do anything useful against Goblins. At the moment I'm trying a built that doesn't run Living Wish, because its too slow in my meta.

Also, has anyone considered running Tsabo's Web in the SB. I'm trying it out at the moment and I won some Games against Landstill,, though the matchup is still like 70-30 for them.
Preboard I have almost no chance without the Duress, but after boarding 4 Duress, 4 Naturalize, and 3 Tsabo's Web I have a chance.

For reference my current list (I don't run Duals because I don't own them, and so far, I've been doing ok with it, sometimes getting into T8
The tournament here is usually about 20-30 people)
4 Llanowar Wastes
2 Treetop Village
1 Volrath's Stronghold
9 Forest
5 Swamp

4 BoP
4 STE
4 WoB
4 Eternal Witness
4 Baloth
2 Kokusho

4 Deed
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Smother
3 Putrefy
2 SoFaI

SB:
4 Naturalize (I love them)
4 Duress (Maybe 1 too much)
3 Tsabo's Web (secret tech against Landstill, because we have mostly U/R builds that don't have much artifact destruction9
4 Engineered Plague (staple against Goblins)
The Kokushos and Swords main were a recent addition, and so far, I've got good results against Goblins and WW(and Affinity which sometimes shows up here) In my meta there's only one Solidarity(crappy sorcery build with medallions), and not much Landstill, so Rock is viable here(we have three Rock players here)

Majestyk1136
10-27-2005, 11:10 AM
I wouldn't say its too much removal
In my meta (which is also infested with Goblins, but also WW) I run a build with 4 Smother and 3 Putrefy main. i've also cut the Duress and put them in the SB because they don't do anything useful against Goblins. At the moment I'm trying a built that doesn't run Living Wish, because its too slow in my meta.

Also, has anyone considered running Tsabo's Web in the SB. I'm trying it out at the moment and I won some Games against Landstill,, though the matchup is still like 70-30 for them.
Preboard I have almost no chance without the Duress, but after boarding 4 Duress, 4 Naturalize, and 3 Tsabo's Web I have a chance.

For reference my current list (I don't run Duals because I don't own them, and so far, I've been doing ok with it, sometimes getting into T8
The tournament here is usually about 20-30 people)
4 Llanowar Wastes
2 Treetop Village
1 Volrath's Stronghold
9 Forest
5 Swamp

4 BoP
4 STE
4 WoB
4 Eternal Witness
4 Baloth
2 Kokusho

4 Deed
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Smother
3 Putrefy
2 SoFaI

SB:
4 Naturalize (I love them)
4 Duress (Maybe 1 too much)
3 Tsabo's Web (secret tech against Landstill, because we have mostly U/R builds that don't have much artifact destruction9
4 Engineered Plague (staple against Goblins)
The Kokushos and Swords main were a recent addition, and so far, I've got good results against Goblins and WW(and Affinity which sometimes shows up here) In my meta there's only one Solidarity(crappy sorcery build with medallions), and not much Landstill, so Rock is viable here(we have three Rock players here)
Do you find that Kokusho is hard to cast a lot of the time? I'd be horrified of sitting there with that fat beast in my grip as the Goblins come tearing down out of Skirk Ridge... Have you thought about replacing that with Troll? He's better in most cases because he's essentially immune to all removal not called "Wrath of God" and seriously impairs the Goblin deck's ability to play all-out aggro.

Having 4 Trolls maindeck plus the 4 Walls gives you a plethora of likely turn 2 drops that can stop the beatdown and stabilize the board so that you can set up a game-swinging Deed or Wish.

On Duress. You're correct to put it in the Sideboard if your meta is infested with Goblins. The trouble is that against almost all of the other decks it serves a very important purpose in that it gives you access to information that sets up crushing Therapies and keeps obnoxious pests and threats off the board.

If I were going to go to Philly I would be very seriously considering playing the 3 MD Duress only because I expect that some bizarre Combo Deck is going to emerge from the mind of some pro and that information will be disseminated among the top tier players. They of course won't be expecting Black to show up, so Duress will pwn them.

I'm also glad that you noticed that you have no shot against landstill without Duress. Of course, the continued Viability of Landstill is in doubt, but the increasing popularity of things like Wombat continue to make Duress very attractive.

J.Dangerously
10-27-2005, 11:56 AM
I think putrify is going in the wrong direction. I think we should be taking a look at Last Gasp. There are very few relevant creatures that don't die to -3/-3. Or to Last Gasp and a chump blocking STE.

Also, if goblins are that big of a problem in your meta, you should be subbing in Ostracize, instead of duress. If you swing and miss, you can follow up with your therapy for anything else.

Deep Inside
10-27-2005, 12:00 PM
I love Kokusho. If I had room I'd play him 4 times, same with Putrefy. I never have problems casting him, I usually draw him 4-5th round, and I can usually cast him in the 5th, If I have a bird 4th round.The 10 lifeloss you sometimes can inflict to your opponent won me some games.
I found wish to be seldom useful, and I have too many thins I want to put in my SB. I also really like the Swords. because I think Rocks biggest Problem is, that sometimes you remove every thread the opponent has, and then can't get anything out to put pressure on him, and he can recover. The Swords turn everything you have into a thread.

Majestyk1136
10-27-2005, 12:08 PM
I think putrify is going in the wrong direction. I think we should be taking a look at Last Gasp. There are very few relevant creatures that don't die to -3/-3. Or to Last Gasp and a chump blocking STE.

Also, if goblins are that big of a problem in your meta, you should be subbing in Ostracize, instead of duress. If you swing and miss, you can follow up with your therapy for anything else.
Stop being bad. Ostracize is a terrible card under the best of conditions and should NEVER be sided in from anywhere.

On Putrefy. The key word that we're looking for here is "Utility." You're going to be looking pretty stupid sitting there with Last Gasp in your hand as that Exalted Angel obliterates your life total. For that matter, Smother more reliably deals with anything that Last Gasp could conceivably kill.

Please note that Putrefy is also a critical element in beating any Stax Deck in game 1. Again, you're going to look like a fool sitting there as a Smokestack or Tangle Wire eats your Lunch with Last Gasp in hand and your flaccid member in the other.

EDIT:

@ Deep Inside: Do you really need Kokusho however? How is it that Ravenous Baloth isn't enough??? Doesn't the Big Dragon catch an STP more frequently than he faithfully dies and gives you life? On the SoFIs. It seems to me that the most important thing that this does is give Protection from Red and occasionally draw a card when the Sword doesn't get blown up. I think you'd find that you'd have more consistency and success if you'd replace the 2 swords and the kokushos with Trolls. Troll wins combat with most Goblins (even if he has to Regen...) or even if he dies is likely to come back via Witness recursion to cause more problems for the goblins player. At the very minimum he's going to force the Goblins player to seriously overcommit to the board if they want to get through, thus allowing you to get an X-for-1 off of your Deed.

Deep Inside
10-27-2005, 02:18 PM
Problem with Troll is, I never have the mana to reg him, as rock is a very mana-hungry deck.I n 3 tournaments, I have encountered exactly 4 Swords to plowshares, and they were all blown by WW players to remove my annoying WoB ;)
In my meta, Landstill is mostly U/R. But I will try out the Trolls (though I have only 3, so I won't play 4 which is a bit much anyway. I'll probably try 2 + the Swords)The other thing Kokusho does is winning the Mirror outright, as the other Rocks don't play anything bigger than baloth, and don't even play Putrefy yet

Regarding Putrefy, this card is a beast, in my meta, there are a lot of WW and I really like blowing up Jittes :)
Last Gasp is just a bad Smother in my opinion. when will you find a expensive creature that has only 3 toughness, which is the only case, Gasp would be better than Smother.

J.Dangerously
10-27-2005, 02:21 PM
In the following DTB here is what ostracize hits vs what duress hits:

Goblins: Ostracize hits 64% of the deck vs Duress hitting 6% of the cards in the deck.

RGSA: Ostracize hits 42% of the deck DUress hits 6% of the deck.

Solidarity: Ostracize hits 0% of the deck, Duress hits 66% of the deck.

Ostracize averages (0+64+42)/3=35.%
Duress averages (66+6+6)/3=26%

Please defend your opinion that Ostracize is crap.

Majestyk1136
10-27-2005, 02:40 PM
In the following DTB here is what ostracize hits vs what duress hits:

Goblins: Ostracize hits 64% of the deck vs Duress hitting 6% of the cards in the deck.

RGSA: Ostracize hits 42% of the deck DUress hits 6% of the deck.

Solidarity: Ostracize hits 0% of the deck, Duress hits 66% of the deck.

Ostracize averages (0+64+42)/3=35.%
Duress averages (66+6+6)/3=26%

Please defend your opinion that Ostracize is crap.
RGSA doesn't care if you knock the creatures out of their hand... they're just going to Survival up another one or Genesis it, so Ostracize will only be good IF the Survival player has no Genesis or Survival. That's unlikely at best. Against Goblins you're better off just playing some jank like Lose Hope or Darkblast because you can at least surprise the Gobbo player in combat AND you've made them spend the mana to play the man. Don't underestimate the importance of this! Goblins is the most brutally efficient tempo deck out there. Your job is to blunt that tempo and win the long game by generating insurmountable card advantage. Depriving them of 1 goblin (assuming you play first and get Ostracize in your hand) is just a drop in the ocean of Goblins that they can deploy.

The other reason that Ostracize is terrible is that you're only going to be playing first in half of your game 1's. If your opponent goes first and opens up with "Mountain/Lackey/Go" and you go "Swamp/Ostracize - rip their Best goblin - go," do you believe that it's going to matter if they poop out their "Best" goblin or their "Second Best" goblin? You're so far behind at that point in tempo that recovery is going to be nigh impossible. Please note that Ostracize is perfectly dead against the control decks as well, while Duress rips up control and Combo.

So the point is that despite the fact that Ostracize will be "live" against Goblins most of the time it just doesn't matter. It's rearranging the deck-chairs on the Titanic when what you need to be doing instead is turning the Rudder.

Deep Inside
10-27-2005, 02:43 PM
The fact is that ostracize hits creatures. Rock does not have its biggest problem problem with creatures.
Also, ostracize hits exactly 0 cards in landstill and belcher.
By the way, Belcher, Landstill and Solidarity are Rocks biggest weaknesses, and withouth Duress, you have absolutely no way of winning those matches.

Zilla
10-27-2005, 08:05 PM
ostracize hits exactly 0 cards in landstill and belcher.
Technically Ostracize hits Eternal Dragon in Landstill and can hit Birds, Welder, Tinder Wall, and Elvish Spirit Guide in Belcher, depending on the build. I'm just clarifying, though. This doesn't make Ostracize any good.

NeoMike
10-27-2005, 08:18 PM
Been a while since my last post, but have lately been sitting idol in the threads...

A year+ or so ago, I played Rock continuously. I top 4'd every week I played it, and I must say... Landstill was always an easy win... They just cant handle Duress + Cabal Therapy + Troll + spot removal for their manlands. I started playing this deck because of all the Control decks, this is just one of the best agro control decks there is to beat Control.

Also, Putrify is crazy in here. Killing Crucible, Disk, Jitte, SoFI, AEther Vial, and any targetable creature... its just insane.

Ostracize isnt in the deck simply because you dont care about any creatures, cause you will kill them. Duress is a must due to combo, control, and any card that will threaten your strategy, creatures do not threaten your strategy, they are just a spell your opponents cast to make them feel like the creatures help, then you crush their hope with Edict, Putrify, Smother, Deed... etc.

Just my 2¢...

Pinder
11-01-2005, 01:15 AM
After a bit more playtesting, I've fiddled with my decklist a little more:


//Land
4 x Wooded Foothills
4 x Bayou
4 x Overgrown Tomb
4 x Forest
3 x Swamp
1 x Volrath's Stronghold

//Creatures
4 x Wall of Blossoms
4 x Birds of Paradise
4 x Ravenous Baloth
3 x Yavimaya Elder
3 x Eternal Witness
3 x Troll Ascetic

//Spells
4 x Putrefy
4 x Pernicious Deed
4 x Duress
4 x Cabal Therapy
3 x Living Wish

//The Board
4 x Enigneered Plague
4 x Infest
2 x Plague Spitter
1 x Volrath's Stronghold
2 x Viridian Shaman
2 x Quagmire Druid

I finally took out Gleancrawler. It's good, but not in this deck. It's just too slow for legacy. Especially against Goblins. I put in some living wishes, including some more toolbox stuff in the sideboard like Viridian Shaman for artifacts and quagmire druids for enchantments. I'm not entirely sure about the quagmire druid over, say, druid lyrist, but I like the fact that his ability is repeatable and it gives me a way to sac stuff so I can recur it. Also, he's bigger, so he can trade with more stuff. For those of you who don't know, quagmire druid reads thusly:

Quagmire Druid 2B
Creature - Druid Zombie
G, T, Sacrifice a creature: destroy target enchantment.
2/2

He'll probably end up saccing himself like a lyrist most of the time, but only further playtesting will tell. I took out the diabolic edicts because, well, they don't really do much. I might put in smothers later once I figure out what to take out for them. I'm also still running 4 duress because my meta is slowly shifting towards solidarity (something that doesn't bode well for me).

Any thoughts on the new build?

Majestyk1136
11-01-2005, 11:20 AM
After a bit more playtesting, I've fiddled with my decklist a little more:


//Land
4 x Wooded Foothills
4 x Bayou
4 x Overgrown Tomb
4 x Forest
3 x Swamp
1 x Volrath's Stronghold

//Creatures
4 x Wall of Blossoms
4 x Birds of Paradise
4 x Ravenous Baloth
3 x Yavimaya Elder
3 x Eternal Witness
3 x Troll Ascetic

//Spells
4 x Putrefy
4 x Pernicious Deed
4 x Duress
4 x Cabal Therapy
3 x Living Wish

//The Board
4 x Enigneered Plague
4 x Infest
2 x Plague Spitter
1 x Volrath's Stronghold
2 x Viridian Shaman
2 x Quagmire Druid

I finally took out Gleancrawler. It's good, but not in this deck. It's just too slow for legacy. Especially against Goblins. I put in some living wishes, including some more toolbox stuff in the sideboard like Viridian Shaman for artifacts and quagmire druids for enchantments. I'm not entirely sure about the quagmire druid over, say, druid lyrist, but I like the fact that his ability is repeatable and it gives me a way to sac stuff so I can recur it. Also, he's bigger, so he can trade with more stuff. For those of you who don't know, quagmire druid reads thusly:

Quagmire Druid 2B
Creature - Druid Zombie
G, T, Sacrifice a creature: destroy target enchantment.
2/2

He'll probably end up saccing himself like a lyrist most of the time, but only further playtesting will tell. I took out the diabolic edicts because, well, they don't really do much. I might put in smothers later once I figure out what to take out for them. I'm also still running 4 duress because my meta is slowly shifting towards solidarity (something that doesn't bode well for me).

Any thoughts on the new build?
There's a couple of problems here.

First: You have almost no redundancy on mana acceleration. Why? Yavimaya Elder is almost as slow as Gleancrawler if you want to use him to his maximum effect. In the old extended where you could afford to spend some time making sure that you won't miss any land drops he was OK, but not without a set of Birds and Llanowars flanking him so that he can be played on turn 2 consistently. Without those turn 1 accelerants that Elder is going to be pretty much of a turn 3 play all the time. That's just begging to be Gempalm Incinerated. Sure, you'll get your 2 lands, but you'll get nailed by a Lackey, Piledriver and Warchief and have no blockers! Maybe you'll have a Wall of Blossoms, but that's putting a bandaid on a Gunshot Wound. Which one are you going to block? The massive damage goblin (and lose your wall) or the Lackey in order to prevent the "Big Turn" from losing you the game on the next turn?

Also: What is with this wish board? Quagmire Druid? Mana efficiency is key to this deck. The Druid does not fit this bill. How about Viridian Zealot? Would he be a more acceptable replacement? At least Druid/Elvish Lyrist are cheap to use considering their Summoning Sickness problem. But if somebody can kill a Lyrist they can kill a Druid... Also, get a Bone Shredder in there in place of one of those Shamans! Shredder wipes out the best guy on the other side of the board and will be able to block in the ensuing attack or he'll draw removal. You're pretty much going to let it die during your upkeep anyhow, so it's a huge quantity of card advantage. Add to this the fact that if you stack Echo and Genesis correctly you can let the Shredder die to Echo and regrow it immediately to be replayed. And where is Genesis!!? Volrath's Stronghold is nice, but Wasteland is one of the most commonly played cards in Legacy. It steals your Draw Step in essence unless you are Putting Wall of Blossoms or Witness on the Top of your deck. That's extremely mana intensive. Genesis is just as mana intensive and doesn't require you to play a land that's just going to die. At least you can play a solid mana base while setting up Genesis recursion. And you get your Draw Step!

Next: What is the deal with this mana base? Why do you feel the need to use 150 dual lands? Are you aware that this makes you more susceptible to Wasteland/generic nonbasic hate? How about the fact that it actually helps your opponent out quite a bit if you ever have to plunk down one of those Rav Duals untapped? It damages your Burn and Goblins matchups severely by intentionally lowering your life total and making it so that you're probably going to get nailed by a massive Price of Progress from the Burn deck or Wasted into submission by the Gobbos.

So, in conclusion: What you should think about doing is increasing the number of accelerants you're playing. Sakura-Tribe Elder is a perfectly acceptable replacement for Yavimaya Elder. Between Elders and Birds you're much more likely to see turn 3 Baloths and other assorted goodness while shoring up your mana base and accelerating it. Also, cut the number of nonbasic lands you're using! Between the Fetchlands and the mana acceleration/fixing that you have at your disposal there should be no problem getting the Black mana you need. This allows you to bias your mana base in favor of Green quite a bit in order to ensure you have that mana consistency. Finally, do some testing against a good goblins deck. You'll see that there is plenty of reason to make the changes I'm suggesting.

Obfuscate Freely
11-01-2005, 12:19 PM
Quagmire Druid? Mana efficiency is key to this deck. The Druid does not fit this bill. How about Viridian Zealot? Would he be a more acceptable replacement?
Zealot is hardly more mana efficient than Druid. It does have the advantage of being active the turn it hits play, though.


Add to this the fact that if you stack Echo and Genesis correctly you can let the Shredder die to Echo and regrow it immediately to be replayed.
No, you can't. Both Genesis's ability and Echo are triggered abilities, and they both trigger at the beginning of your upkeep. You have to choose the target for Genesis' trigger when you put it on the stack, at which point Shredder will still be in play, no matter how you stack the abilities.

Majestyk1136
11-01-2005, 12:36 PM
Quagmire Druid? Mana efficiency is key to this deck. The Druid does not fit this bill. How about Viridian Zealot? Would he be a more acceptable replacement?
Zealot is hardly more mana efficient than Druid. It does have the advantage of being active the turn it hits play, though.


Add to this the fact that if you stack Echo and Genesis correctly you can let the Shredder die to Echo and regrow it immediately to be replayed.
No, you can't. Both Genesis's ability and Echo are triggered abilities, and they both trigger at the beginning of your upkeep. You have to choose the target for Genesis' trigger when you put it on the stack, at which point Shredder will still be in play, no matter how you stack the abilities.
I think that the ability to be used immediately trumps the need to wait with Quagmire Druid. It's not like you are frequently going to be facing a situation where you need to annihilate 2-3 enchantments at a time such that Quagmire Druid would be a necessity anyways. In the final analysis you spend the same amount of mana anyways (the colored mana is slightly more prohibitive on Zealot, but sometimes it just needs to be dead now.)

My bad on the Genesis thing. You're right that it needs to target when it goes on the stack. I thought that you chose targets when deciding whether to pay the 2G on resolution of the trigger. Good pluck.

Pinder
11-01-2005, 09:07 PM
Sakura-Tribe Elder is a perfectly acceptable replacement for Yavimaya Elder.

I was actually beginning to think the same thing. At 2cc, he's faster than Yavimaya Elder, and mostly my Yavimaya Elders end up on the wrong end of an STP anyway. The fact that the STE sacs for free helps take care of that.


cut the number of nonbasic lands you're using!

But...I likethe new duals....I can see where you're coming from though. Generally, they end up slowing me down by coming into play tapped anyway. And more basic just means more targets for Elders......


How about Viridian Zealot? Would he be a more acceptable replacement?

No argument here. I completely forgot about the Zealot. Thanks.


get a Bone Shredder in there in place of one of those Shamans!

I was thinking about throwing in Nekrataal, but the black-intensive 4 mana kept me from considering him for long. This guy though, is tech. He's cheaper, and he manages to die all by his lonesome, making himself prime for recursion. And I don't think there are any artifact or black creatures I'll be wanting to kill anyway. Thanks for pointing him out.


And where is Genesis!!?

I want to run Genesis. I really do.The main problem with Volrath's Stronghold is that it stunts your ability to draw. Genesis is better at maintaining card advantage. But as of right now there's just no good way to get him into my graveyard short of therapying myself, or playing him, and saccing him to therapy. Any thoughts on a reliable way to get him into the yard?

After taking your thoughts into consideration, I've arrived at this:

//Land
4 x Wooded Foothills
4 x Bayou
6 x Forest
5 x Swamp
1 x Volrath's Stronghold

//Creatures
4 x Wall of Blossoms
4 x Birds of Paradise
4 x Ravenous Baloth
3 x Sakura Tribe Elder
3 x Eternal Witness
3 x Troll Ascetic

//Spells
4 x Putrefy
4 x Pernicious Deed
4 x Duress
4 x Cabal Therapy
3 x Living Wish

//The Board
4 x Enigneered Plague
4 x Infest
2 x Plague Spitter
1 x Volrath's Stronghold
1 x Viridian Shaman
1 x Bone Shredder
1 x Viridian Zealot
1 x Genesis

Further playtesting to ensue.

frogboy
11-01-2005, 09:16 PM
Well, usually, when you're having problems with getting Genesis in the yard, it means your opponent has this 4/4 to deal with, so they'll either die, or convienently deposit him in the bin for you.

Or Plow him, but whatever.

Majestyk1136
11-02-2005, 11:09 AM
You're playing with those Eternal Witnesses for a Reason. :D

I'm using a playset because the card advantage you get from them is tremendous. Your plan for getting Genesis into the grave is going to rely upon the Game State. Does it make more sense to recur guys with Genesis at a particular point or would it be more beneficial to rely on the built-in recursion from the Witnesses? Once the situation becomes obvious (you've determined what you need to wish for) you should have a plan in mind for executing it. My first wish is almost never for Genesis, by the way. Against Goblins I go for the Shredder. Against Landstill/Generic Control I go for Thrull Surgeon/Ravenous Rats depending on what I expect to see. Ditto for Combo. Both of those cards are Wrecking Balls. Against other randomness blindly wishing up Genesis may be attractive but you are basically wishing for Fat at that point and would be better off getting that Baloth or Spiritmonger from your Sideboard. It's just an issue of playing smart and realizing that you have the answers to beat nearly any deck out there (with the possible exception of Belcher...) given crisp play.

EDIT: For reference, here's my current list.

//NAME: G/B Control
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Putrefy
3 Ravenous Baloth
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Living Wish
4 Eternal Witness
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
8 Forest
6 Swamp
SB: 1 Genesis
SB: 1 Skyshroud War Beast
SB: 1 Dust Bowl
SB: 1 Bone Shredder
SB: 1 Ravenous Baloth
SB: 1 Viridian Shaman
SB: 1 Ravenous Rats
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Putrefy
SB: 3 Persecute

I upped the number of Putrefy maindecked as an answer to random dorks and/or annoying artifacts. It is such a strong card I want to play 4, but can't seem to cut anything else.

As a sidenote: Against Wombat. Wombat has few relevant spells against you in reality. Your hand destruction needs to be aimed primarily at their creature removal or at Decree of Justice. You can bait them into playing Humility if you are hand destruction light, sandbag a Deed until you hit 7 and annihilate the board. After Boarding you have Mind Twist for infinity against them in Persecute, so there's almost no way you can lose.

Deep Inside
11-02-2005, 05:14 PM
I never got a response to my proposed SB card against Landstill: Tsabo's Web. I've found this card highly useful, especially against the U/R builds, whose only shot at it is a disk, which can be naturalized.

Majestyk1136
11-02-2005, 05:21 PM
I never got a response to my proposed SB card against Landstill: Tsabo's Web. I've found this card highly useful, especially against the U/R builds, whose only shot at it is a disk, which can be naturalized.
Tsabo's Web is a fine sideboard option against Landstill, but what are you planning on removing from the Board to put it in? Your Landstill matchup is pretty good as it is - you have inevitability against them. Do you need to make them more dead?

Deep Inside
11-02-2005, 05:28 PM
Actually I lost most of my games against U/R Landstill, and the ones that I won, I had the Web out. They just counter/Stifle my important stuff, and proceed to kill me with CoW-protected Factories.
I never played U/W Landstill though, that may be different.

At the moment, I'm not playing with Wish, so I have a lot of SB space.
When I did play with Wish, I played something like this:

4 Engineered Plague
3 Tsabo's Web
3 Naturalize
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Boneshredder
1 Spiritmonger
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Ascetic Troll

Majestyk1136
11-02-2005, 05:35 PM
If this is your sideboard, what does your maindeck look like right now? The wishes are too important to just drop...

Deep Inside
11-02-2005, 05:48 PM
I've played with Wishes most of the time, and I probably will put them back in, but at the moment, where I have to face Goblins twice every tournament, I've decided to drop Duress and Wish from the Maindeck, and crush Goblins instead.

4 Llanowar Wastes (don't have duals)
2 Treetop Village
1 Volrath's Stronghold
10 Forest
5 Swamp

4 BoP
4 STE
4 WoB
4 Eternal Witness
4 Baloth
2 Ascetic Troll

4 Deed
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Smother
4 Putrefy


SB:
4 Naturalize
4 Duress
3 Tsabo's Web
4 Engineered Plague

Majestyk1136
11-02-2005, 05:56 PM
I play in a more control-oriented meta. Hence, I play the Wishes and Duresses. Obviously after boards I'm in "Destroy all Goblins" mode, but I can pull out a fair share of games against Gobs pre-sideboard assuming they don't get Lackey on the play every time. As I think was noted a couple pages ago, Duress is a critical Element in beating Landstill in all its forms.

Pinder
11-03-2005, 12:28 AM
SB: 1 Skyshroud War Beast

Oooh. I didn't know this guy existed. This guy vs Landstill makes me happy. :D

And only 2 fetches? I guess that's okay, though, what with the 4 Witnesses...maybe I'll cut a Foothill to make room for a 4th in my build. I still ike 4 though, so I can draw them consistently.

Also, I was wondering if anyone's considered Nezumi Shortfang in the SB in place of rats/surgeon. The only downside I can see is that you can't use him right away (of course with this deck, that might be bad). But the discard is instant speed, and if you flip him, a 3/3 rack on your side of the table aint half bad...just some thoughts.

EDIT: Oh, and do you think having Plagues and Infest in my board is a little overkill? I'm thinking I might cut one or the other to make room for more toolbox stuff.

ElvenTitz
11-03-2005, 03:50 AM
And how good you did with this deck ? Post some of your tournament results. Im considering a deck to run in PTQ Lille, and have to choose between : Rock, Burn and MWC.

Majestyk1136
11-03-2005, 10:32 AM
SB: 1 Skyshroud War Beast

Oooh. I didn't know this guy existed. This guy vs Landstill makes me happy. :D

And only 2 fetches? I guess that's okay, though, what with the 4 Witnesses...maybe I'll cut a Foothill to make room for a 4th in my build. I still ike 4 though, so I can draw them consistently.

Also, I was wondering if anyone's considered Nezumi Shortfang in the SB in place of rats/surgeon. The only downside I can see is that you can't use him right away (of course with this deck, that might be bad). But the discard is instant speed, and if you flip him, a 3/3 rack on your side of the table aint half bad...just some thoughts.

EDIT: Oh, and do you think having Plagues and Infest in my board is a little overkill? I'm thinking I might cut one or the other to make room for more toolbox stuff.
Add to this the fact that he's a Beast... Which of course means that you can Dodge Swords if you have a Baloth out.

I cut down to 2 Fetches because the Deck is land light anyways. I don't want to suck out all of the lands immediately and maybe miss land drops. That = Bad Times.

Rats are in there because of Mana Efficiency. You get the Maximum effect out of them against Goblins in particular where it practically reads "put a goblin in your hand in the Graveyard. Oh yeah, and kill this or lose another Goblin to it."

Pinder
11-07-2005, 12:57 AM
What do people think of Cranial Extraction in the SB? I say this because my meta is slowly becoming filled with combo (read: solidarity), and I think cranials would be a decent sideboard to switch for all the dead creature kill (a la putrefy). A cranial for high tide would stop them in their tracks, yes? The only downside I can see is that it costs 4 mana.

I also recently switched out the maindeck Volrath's Stronghold for a MD Genesis (I still have the other stronghold in the board though), and I put dustbowl in the board too. Of course, with only one maindeck, I'm having trouble finding him, getting him into the yard, and using him in any decent time frame. Any thoughts on solving this? Should I run more, or some kind of tutoring...?

kimberley
11-07-2005, 01:36 AM
What do people think of Cranial Extraction in the SB? I say this because my meta is slowly becoming filled with combo (read: solidarity), and I think cranials would be a decent sideboard to switch for all the dead creature kill (a la putrefy). A cranial for high tide would stop them in their tracks, yes? The only downside I can see is that it costs 4 mana.

I also recently switched out the maindeck Volrath's Stronghold for a MD Genesis (I still have the other stronghold in the board though), and I put dustbowl in the board too. Of course, with only one maindeck, I'm having trouble finding him, getting him into the yard, and using him in any decent time frame. Any thoughts on solving this? Should I run more, or some kind of tutoring...?
1. Why do you want to cast Extraction, if you can simply cast Tsunami in its place? Solidarity can kill without Tide, control can still manage play against you...while Tsunami is game over.
...and its in your primary color.

2. Why are you so fond of Genesis?
You have to cast it (hell! it's a very bad creature for 5), you have to get it destroyed (heard about Plowshares? ... you are aware that you won't have left any Therapy turn 5?) and you have to pay the same damn 3 mana as you have to pay with stronghold. And if Genesis is removed from the yard via Furnace the show is over.
Instead you could run 3 or so Volrath's Stronghold and simply win every late game you enter with them (if your opponent can not take out all your Stronghold with Wastelands and you Witnesses with countermagic).

Majestyk1136
11-07-2005, 01:40 AM
4 Eternal Witness
3-4 Living Wish

SB: 1 Genesis

I've got your tutors right here...

Witness can cover recursion in the maindeck most of the time. In the rare occasions where it doesn't you have Wish to find Genesis. Like Frogboy said, if you're having a problem getting Genesis into the graveyard this typically means your opponent has to deal with a 4/4 beater... :laugh:

Refer to my list from the previous page. I posted like an 8/10 victory rate over Vial Gobs on Friday night when my friend and I tested. The only times he won were when I was mana screwed once and another time when he popped double Lackey with a Port to tap down my Forest which would have led to a Wall of Blossoms and stabilization land. Brutal. He was ticked.

Anyways, I think that Persecute is just a beating against non-Belcher Combo. It's better than Cranial because Solidarity can probably win through Cranial for just 1 piece. They can't win through Mind Twist.

:cool:

Majestyk1136
11-10-2005, 02:13 PM
1. Why do you want to cast Extraction, if you can simply cast Tsunami in its place? Solidarity can kill without Tide, control can still manage play against you...while Tsunami is game over.
...and its in your primary color.

2. Why are you so fond of Genesis?
You have to cast it (hell! it's a very bad creature for 5), you have to get it destroyed (heard about Plowshares? ... you are aware that you won't have left any Therapy turn 5?) and you have to pay the same damn 3 mana as you have to pay with stronghold. And if Genesis is removed from the yard via Furnace the show is over.
Instead you could run 3 or so Volrath's Stronghold and simply win every late game you enter with them (if your opponent can not take out all your Stronghold with Wastelands and you Witnesses with countermagic).

MODS: Sorry for the Double post, but I feel these criticisms needed to be responded to directly and in their own response. I had already responded to Pinder previously and didn't have time to properly address these comments. If you want to merge this post... feel free.

@ Point 1: Tsunami is a ghetto Armageddon. It will not resolve against Solidarity unless you've already raped their hand with Duress/Therapy. Tsunami also has no other appications outside of the Solidarity matchup. Extraction has the problem of making it so that Solidarity is just in the position of needing to Wish for their High Tide in order to win. There really needs to be a "Removed-from-the-friggin-game-forever Zone" from which nothing can be retrieved. A much better solution is just playing Persecute because it wrecks house against a wide swath of decks in the format. It's at least on an equal plane to Extraction in most matchups. It has some of the same weaknesses as Cranial but more upsides:
A) both are too slow to deal with Belcher, Goblins and ATS
B) Doesnt' cause significant damage to polychromatic control decks.

However, there are the following extra benefits to playing Persecute:
A) Wrecks all Mono-colored, Non-aggressive type decks, especially Wombat and Solidarity. Less so with Jack Black, but it can be important for the next reason.
B) Provides Direct Card Advantage. This is a less important thing sometimes, but against the matchups that it has to function in it may as well read "Win the Game" because recovering from this card for any mono-colored deck is almost impossible. Cranial is nothing more than an annoyance to the Control decks except in Multiples.

@ Point 2:

Genesis is the card advantage mechanism of last resort. Against ATS it will keep you alive through recurring Baloths for long enough to eventually use your board sweepers to clean up. I wish there were something in this deck that was akin to a Combo finish such that once you've established control you can clobber them but that solution is just not there, so Genesis is there to finish up.

As I said in an earlier post, Genesis is infrequently my first pluck from a Wish. The deck can function without it in most matchups and doesn't need it because it is slow as hell in most cases.

@ Multiple Volrath's Strongholds in the Board:

Are you nutz? This land is a Wish Target at best and playing multiples is a surefire way to find oneself manascrewed against Goblins. This land produces colorless mana, is nonbasic and is legendary. Drawing multiples means you can't play the second. That is terrible. Maybe your area is so choked with Goblins that you have to recur men all the time, but ironically this makes no sense because that land is not going to last against goblins. Having a solid mana base is the cornerstone of beating that deck. You can't afford to bastardize your deck's mana against Landstill and Goblins and expect to win. The decks that can't monkey with your mana don't care about you recurring men.

@ Pinder: That is a lot of creature hate. Some more utility would be nice if only because your matchup with Goblins ought to be favorable anyways by a fair margin. Especially after boarding. You have so many ways to wipe out the Gobbs after boards that there ought to be nothing that they can do to beat you. I believe you said that you have to play Goblins all the time. You probably beat them because you're practically pre-sideboarded against them. How are your matchups against everybody else however? Unless everybody is playing aggro on that end of the world it would seem that you'd get your dog walked by control all day long. Especially in game 1.

Zilla
11-10-2005, 11:21 PM
Tsunami is a ghetto Armageddon.
Armageddon is symmetrical.


It will not resolve against Solidarity unless you've already raped their hand with Duress/Therapy.
The same is true of Extraction only moreso. Furthermore, if you haven't hit them with Duress or Therapy in the early game, you lose anyway.


Tsunami also has no other appications outside of the Solidarity matchup.
Landstill? Angel Control? Tog? Gro? Anything with Vedalken Shackles or countermagic in it, really. RGSA runs it for the Landstill and Solidarity matchups, and it works there. Why isn't it going to work here?


Genesis is the card advantage mechanism of last resort.
Volrath's Stronghold does what Genesis does, except you don't have to get it into the yard to do it. Incidentally, Living Wish can get lands too. You don't have to run Stronghold maindeck.

ElvenTitz
11-11-2005, 05:01 AM
And how good you did with this deck ? Post some of your tournament results. Im considering a deck to run in PTQ Lille, and have to choose between : Rock, Burn and MWC.
First time you seemed to ignore me. Lets try ask you second time. Any one of you guys, actually tryed this deck in legacy tourney or you just talking about non-embodied ideas here ?

Majestyk1136
11-11-2005, 11:25 AM
Tsunami is a ghetto Armageddon.
Armageddon is symmetrical.


It will not resolve against Solidarity unless you've already raped their hand with Duress/Therapy.
The same is true of Extraction only moreso. Furthermore, if you haven't hit them with Duress or Therapy in the early game, you lose anyway.


Tsunami also has no other appications outside of the Solidarity matchup.
Landstill? Angel Control? Tog? Gro? Anything with Vedalken Shackles or countermagic in it, really. RGSA runs it for the Landstill and Solidarity matchups, and it works there. Why isn't it going to work here?


Genesis is the card advantage mechanism of last resort.
Volrath's Stronghold does what Genesis does, except you don't have to get it into the yard to do it. Incidentally, Living Wish can get lands too. You don't have to run Stronghold maindeck.

Typically decks that use Armageddon attempt to A) Establish superior board position prior to Blowing Up the World and winning or B) Recover from Blowing Up the World more quickly than their opponent and winning. This deck doesn't require cutting off its opponents late game with cards like 'Geddon or Tsunami. Blue lands just aren't that threatening to this deck. Unless it's Solidarity and then you just have to concentrate on killing their hand anyway. Hence, Persecute.

On the issue of Extraction, I have counselled against its use. It's too narrow in a fast format to be much of a threat to decks that it could hurt. Mainly because the decks it could hurt are off to the races and winning by the time you've done this. I agree however that if you don't get the disruption against Solidarity you just lose. It gets better after boards thanks to Persecute, but I'm not entirely sure that some Generic discard spell (Hymn to Tourach or Waking Nightmare/Mindrot) might not be just as damaging if it's a little bit faster. Trouble is, nobody plays Solidarity around here so it's tough to test short of firing up 2 copies of Apprentice and going at it against myself. It's hard to play Cabal Therapy correctly if you have perfect information about your "opponent's" hand. [glare]

Back to Tsunami again. No. No. No. And just for good measure, No. You destroy all of these decks to begin with. I haven't tested against Loam-A-Tog yet but my initial impression is that the deck is vulnerable to the same problem as the rest of these decks: they all die to your maindeck removal and disruption. A lot of the versions of Loam-A-Tog that I've seen have Deed (which sort of cancels yours out in a way) in them and the scariest thing that they can do is play a Corpse Dance/Shallow Grave for the win. Gro is a Joke as Duress and Therapy tear it a new hole. Anything that makes it through that gets clobbered by Deed, Putrefy or Bone Shredder. Even Mystic Enforcer + Threshold isn't that scary as he can be infinitely chumped by Birds + Genesis or just gets blown up by Deed. My friend plays 'Zerk for that reason. [oh]

Against Landstill you have other worries than blowing up their Islands. Their hand is a more impressive target as the only way they can beat you is through gaining board advantage, (fat chance) but I don't even bring in Persecute against my friend because I just destroy his Landstill deck anyways. The fool surprised me the other day by playing MD Angel. What a prick. But, nonetheless, I recovered and beat him anyways through his cheesedick surprise attack. So in short, there may be some application for Tsunami but it seems largely unnecessary as your existing answers just work better. Tsunami is pretty much win-more.

@ Volrath's Stronghold in the board. This is a fine thing. Would Dust Bowl be better? I have tried it both ways and found that having Genesis as your recursion tends to be better as you don't have to rely on a nonbasic land to recur stuff. You have 4 Regrowths maindeck anyways, so the number of times you're going to be forced to wish for your recursion are pretty rare but it can be important. I'm thinking that the slot I devoted to a Dust Bowl is going to get replaced with Withered Wretch thanks to Loam-A-Tog and other graveyard recursion however. I seriously try to run as few non-basic lands maindeck as possible. Maybe that's because I have the Ph3ar, but I think having mana stability is more important than just about anything in this deck.

@ Elven_Titz: I didn't mean to ignore you. I just hadn't had time to really evaluate your request. I think that you can play this deck safely in a meta that won't expect to see a lot of burn. You essentially have 6 chances to draw a Ravenous Baloth in this deck and that is the only thing that will keep you alive for an extended period of time against that deck because you can't win that fast. Your hand disruption may as well read "This spell prevents 3-4 damage from target burn player." Obviously, Putrefy is worthless against them, but you replace that with Persecute after boarding so you should be able to have a good shot at winning on the play thanks to your increased disruption. I hesitate to give percentages, but if I had a gun to my head I would call it 40-60 preboard, 50-50 after boards, this largely depending on who's on the play as well.

Against Landstill, it's just a control deck. Tear their hand apart and win with a Troll. Their only relevant removal is Wrath of God as it's the only thing that can hit the Troll. Their Manlands are obnoxious sometimes but they'll be unable to dump early Standstills against you thanks to the fact that you'll be able to set up board advantage against them or just knock the card out of their grip. Recursion shouldn't be an issue as you have a thousand ways to nuke Crucible, and activating a Manland against this deck is a surefire way to lose a land. Deed for 0 nukes them, Putrefy nukes them, Baloth Eats them and Troll Regenerates. Double Factory should not be a problem because of the issues listed above. Is anybody going to play this deck however? Against MWC the only problem that they can present you is Humility. Again, you should have the answers through Hand Destruction and Board Sweeping. They of course can run the game out to ridiculous levels via Dragon... That's another reason I'm looking at Wretch, as if he can come down and whack a couple of Dragons in the Graveyard that improves your life greatly. Persecute Wrecks house against them by the way as they have few ways of Generating real card advantage.

As far as what I'd play of these 3 decks, I would play the one you have the most experience with. Burn is simple to play with few difficult decisions to be made. MWC is probably the most difficult to play but has strategic superiority over Goblins. Burn is the same way. Playing against Goblins for the Rock is a tale of Who Went First. If Goblins got the First turn Lackey You're going to be in trouble. I would much rather see a first turn Vial than a Lackey, because your options become more open against Vial. Therapy is of course a Wrecking Ball because you can shut down a lot of their action with a Therapy based on what they show you on turn 1. After boards you get to dump Duress and replace it and 1 Wish with Engineered Plagues. My personal win/loss Ratio in 10 games against Goblins (pre-sideboard) was 8-2. I do not believe this is the "True" win percentage however. It's probably more like 6-4 or 7-3. I'm very scared of posting this result because I'm likely to get flamed. Playing First is HUGE in this matchup however. Luring your opponent into an X-for-1 is very possible thanks to Deed. Also, all of your beaters trade or win outright against their men. Sometimes they get the nut draw however and you can't recover. That's just life. And just to pre-empt people asking me "was your testing partner some incompetent n00b?1!" I say no. I just wrecked him. Learning what hands to keep is pretty important as well. But that should go without saying as there are just some hands that can't win no matter what you do.

I assume that you are from France or the EU, so I have no idea what your metagame looks like, but I would try to play the deck that has the most stability while having a decent matchup against the Gobbs. Probably MWC. The Rock would be a Rogue choice for sure as not everybody would be prepared for it and most people discount it.

ElvenTitz
11-11-2005, 06:35 PM
@Majestyk1136
Thank you for your answer. How are you doing in your tournaments, is there any problem matchups that you didnt mention ?
Im going to try to play rock in local stores and write here my report (i think its gonna happen on next weekend).
PS - Im from russia, if theres anybody from russia too, pm me.

Pinder
11-12-2005, 04:32 PM
@Majesty: When you say too much removal, are you talking about maindeck, or board? I've already conceded that my matchup against aggro is fine, and I'm most likely going to take out either the plagues or the infests (probably the infests) out of the board.

@kimberley: I'm not running maindeck stronghold because in my meta it always dies when I play it. A lot like when I play genesis, actually. my opponents usually take care of getting him into the yard for me. Or they just don't attack. That's cool too.

@Tsunami in the board: Eh, maybe. I know it's great against a lot of decks, but since those decks are practically nonexistant in my meta, I don't know if really need them so much. But having them in the board wouldn't really hurt anything.

@Persecute: Something about this card just rubs me the wrong way. I understand that against Gobs and Solidairty it's a star, but maybe it's the hefty four mana I have to pay for it that I don't like. 'Alright, I play persecute. What? I've already lost to Gobbos and Solidarity? Oops.' It just doesn't seem fast enough.

@everyone who hates extraction: Yeah, I get it. I tried it, it's not really that great. Moving on....

Majestyk1136
11-13-2005, 04:27 PM
@Majestyk1136
Thank you for your answer. How are you doing in your tournaments, is there any problem matchups that you didnt mention ?
Im going to try to play rock in local stores and write here my report (i think its gonna happen on next weekend).
PS - Im from russia, if theres anybody from russia too, pm me.
Problem matchups include but are not limited to Burn (it just goldfishes very quickly) Belcher and Iggy Pop. Your hand disruption against the last two can extend the game or even win it for you on occasion but you typically have to be on the play and have Duress/Therapy in hand and with Therapy you have to not whiff. Belcher can not stand to lose a card as it is, but there are no Guarantees from Iggy Pop because they have their Ghetto YawgWin to regenerate their hand. They can just randomly mise a win off of that which is a problem.

The Game can be a problem but only if you have no way of dealing with Auriok Salvagers. Who gets their hand disruption is pretty important in this match because you can deny them Getting a Gamekeeper in play sometimes if you're lucky and there exists the possibility that you can wish up Withered Wretch and let the Keeper die and then remove him from the game. Putrefy can deal with Salvagers so long as they haven't knocked it out of your grip... This matchup makes a good argument for playing Edicts on the rare occasion that you find somebody playing Darksteel Colossus and they can actually get it out. This is not a commonly played deck in my experience however.


EDIT:

I just got done reading the coverage of GP: Philadelphia and my reaction is this. :angry:

After all of that, we find out that Goblins is the best deck in Legacy? Congrats to Pikula for using superior playskill to annihilate the competition with what appears to be a pretty janky deck. Gerrard's Verdict anyone? Granted, his curve is pretty low, so Bob Maher is unlikely to kill him very quickly (or last very long for that matter) so the possibility of overwhelming your opponent with resource denial is pretty likely, but still. Jankotronic. This just reinforces that it's super important to make sure the deck you choose is very familiar to you. And don't play combo. It apparently sucked pretty bad as maybe 1 combo deck made it to the T8. Lots of Threshold and Gro however. Very interesting.

Majestyk1136
01-06-2006, 02:18 PM
It's been quite awhile since I've posted in this thread, so I thought I would renew the discussion. Since the last post we've seen some large changes in the Legacy Metagame. Some of these changes include the ascendance of Thresh as a leading Archetype, the decline of Landstill, the apparent demise of Solidarity and Survival and the continuing general "goodness" of Goblins.

At the risk of appearing to cling to a corpse I will once again present my latest build of The Rock as I have construed it for Legacy. Voila!

//NAME: G/B Control
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Smother
2 Ravenous Baloth
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Life from the Loam
3 Living Wish
3 Eternal Witness
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
5 Forest
3 Swamp
SB: 1 Genesis
SB: 3 Withered Wretch
SB: 1 Bone Shredder
SB: 1 Ravenous Baloth
SB: 1 Viridian Shaman
SB: 1 Ravenous Rats
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Hymn to Tourach

Some of the biggest recent changes to the build: The addition of Life from the Loam and Wasteland.

This change was made to fight the increasing prevalence of Decks that are reliant on a bank of non-basic lands and sometimes contain no basics whatsoever.

Putrefy has temporarily given way to Smother. This is due to the fact that Smother can Clobber nearly anything that Putrefy can and Obnoxious Artifacts are frequently better killed by Wish->Shaman, Deed, Etc... The extra mana cost of Putrefy became unmanageable with the inclusion of Wasteland anyways.

The mana base has been tinkered with to include extra Fetchlands (the better to Abuse Life from the Loam) thus increasing the color consistency.

The sideboard has been altered as well. When mono-colored combo decks were more prevalent the most logical choice was Persecute, but now that faster decks are in vogue the immediate hand destruction capacity of Hymn to Tourach is more attractive. Graveyard hate has also become a much more serious issue, so the inclusion of Withered Wretch to End Threshold and Opposing Life from the Loam tricks was made as well. I'll include more details about matchups and testing results later.

Anarky87
01-26-2006, 04:13 PM
I too have been tinkering around with the Rock for awhile now and I'm actually quite pleased. I played the version I'm currently running in a small sized tournament (about 12+ people) last night and ended up 2nd.

For reference:

The Rock

-Land-
4 Bayou
4 WoodedFoothills
4 Forests
3 Swamp
4 Wastelands
2 Volrath's Stronghold

-Creatures-
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Carven Caryatid
3 Troll Ascetic
3 Ravenous Baloth
2 Eternal Witness

-Other-
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Smother
3 Putrefy

-SB-
4 Engineered Plague
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Diabolic Edict (Supposed to be 2 Perish, but I couldn't get 2 more)
1 Perish
2 Eternal Witness
1 Troll Ascetic
1 Ravenous Baloth

I decided to run a Wishless version, because in previous testing I felt that even though it gave acces to Bullet answers, is was too clunky for my liking. So I cut them altogether and made, what I thought to be, a more straight forward deck. I originally ran WoB, but after seeing Caryatid, I decided to change since the latter could kill things. It also helped me to abuse Birds a little more which I felt I wasn't doing enough in my previous.

I expected alot of Goblins and Thresh. Thresh was nowhere to be found, but Gobs were out in spades. I was going to take notes on the games, but I ended up not getting very many, most of what I'm going to tell is from memory, so bear with me.

Round 1: Shawn with UWb Mill (?) (2-0)

Game 1: I don't know what Shawn is exactly playing so I'm kinda worried. At first I see a Scrubland so I think Deadguy, but he then proceeds to play Planar Void and passes the turn. I play a Forest and a Birds, then pass the turn. We do this dance for a few more turns, while he Forces a Baloth. He then drops Web of Inertia, shutting down my attack phase. He also has Arcane Denial (Which ended up helping me) on an Isochron Scepter. He casts Glimpse the Unthinkable on me twice, but I bait out his counters, landing Deed to blow the board and swing in with 2 Baloth's and a Troll

Game 2: Game 2 pretty much followed the first game. He tapped out on his turn 2 to play Scepter with Arcane Denial and on my turn I play a land and Troll thanks to a first turn Bird. He mumbles alot about not playing his Scepter right and then continues to play Planar Void followed by Web of Inertia. I bait out one of his counters and land Deed again, blowing it at the end of his turn and swinging with Troll. The very next turn he lays down another duo of Void/Web. The game goes on for a long time until he Glimpes me twice leaving only 3 cards in my library. But, again, I bait out his counters by Putrefying his Scepter, which he counters, so I play another Deed, blow it, and swing for the win with Troll and Witness.

Round 2: Adam with Goblins (2-0)

Game 1: Though Adam seemed nice enough, he wasn't a very competent Goblins player. Game 1 he passivley played out his threats and seemed to never take any initiative in combat. I easily handled him with Trolls, Smothers, and Deeds.

Game 2: -4 Duress, +4 Engineered Plague. Again Adam started shyly playing out threats, while I stuck on two lands for about 4-5 turns, but I had 2 Smothers and an Engineered Plague in hand. Around turn 7-8 I finally hit my 3rd land, brought down Plague and rode it into my next one ending the game.

Round 3: Travis with Goblins (2-0)

Game 1: Travis was really cool, we even chatted about Stax builds before the match. I won the roll and played a Swamp and passed. He played Mountain Vial and passed. I layed a Forest, a Birds and Therapied naming Warchief. He showed me Lackey, Lackey, Warchief, Fanatic, Mountain, Incinerator. I ditched the Chief, and then Flashbacked for the Lackeys. The game was really over then, I think I Deeded the board away and won with Troll/Baloth.

Game 2: -4 Duress, +4 Plagues. Game 2 went much like it did with Adam, me laying down a 3rd turn Plague which I rode into the next Plague, all while beating with Trolls.

Round 4: My Friend Nate also playing Goblins (2-0)

Game 1: Because of the way the tournament was being run, we couldn't draw. So Nate tells me that we'll play one game and if I win, he'll give me the match. So we get started, I'm having a slow start, picking off Goblins here and there and at one point Deeding the board away. I play a Troll and he swings putting me down to 3. I topdeck Baloth, play it, and swing for 3. He passes, at which I sac Baloth for some life and then put it on top of my deck with Stronghold to draw again. Seeing this, he conceded.

Round 5: Travis with Goblins (0-2)

I'm going to preface this with the fact that I did not know what style this tournament was being held. I have always played Swiss, this was not so last night. There was also something about the loser's bracket and obviously some guys who didn't know what double elimination was. They kept saying we had to keep playing until everyone had lost twice. So that meant having to wait for the loser's bracket to finish (Which was like its own tournament and they were 2-3 rounds behind everyone else.)

Game 1: Game 1 I had a hand of a Forest and 2 Birds, so I keep. To make this short, I proceeded to draw no land for about 6-7 turns and he managed to draw 3 Fanatics to kill off all 3 of my birds...

Game 2: -4 Duress, +4 Plague. This was utterly the crappiest my deck played all night. I mulliganed twice into a hand of Bayou, Wasteland, Swamp, Deed, Deed, so I keep. I then proceed to pull the opposite of last game. I end up drawing 6-7 lands in a row and not hitting any of my Plagues. I blow both Deeds to stave off so I can at least find something, but he beats me down to 6 and finishes me with a PoP for 8.

Matches: 4-1, Games: 8-2

I got $3 store credit ( :roll: ), but overall I was very pleased with how the deck worked out. All the people who wanted to play Thresh opted for Goblins at the last minute. The guy who normally plays Deadguy decided to play some BUG 'Tog deck from Extended. I hope next time to hit some more diversity, but I was happy with the way the deck executed, save for the last round. I'm also open to any comments or questions, so feel free to ask.

Lego
01-26-2006, 07:07 PM
Congratulations on the finish. How did you arrive at the current decklist? I've been considering Rock in Legacy, but I've always leaned more towards the Aggro deck with 8 First Turn mana producers, Hypnotic Specter, Ascetic, possibly Wild Mongrel and Mesmeric Fiend, and with SoFI as a finisher.

Is E-Witness worth it, he can recur Deeds and things, and he's got some good synergy with Duress, Capal Therapy, etc. I love casting Birds, Duress, Cabal Therapy, E-Witness getting the Duress, casting it, flashing back the Therapy, and then putting the Witness back on top to get the Duress again, crazy stuff like that.

Anarky87
01-26-2006, 07:22 PM
The original list I was running was, I felt, more controllish. And after testing with my friend (Nate) online, I just said, "Hey, this isn't working, it's lacking punch." So I debated for a long time on whether to cut the Living Wishes and when I did, I could let the deck take on a more proactive role.

Most of the decks at the tournament just weren't ready for massive (Recurring) hand/creature hate early game and then sick (Troll) and massive (Baloth) creatures playing clean-up. The game against Shawn (UWb Mill) I should have boarded in the other two Witnesses. It's sick to pull stuff like you've stated and also Deeding, play Witness, get Deed, play Deed, pop it for 3, put Witness on top of my library.

But I think you can gear it towards whatever you expect to face. I ended most games just by Deeding while regenerating my Troll, then pounding them in the face while they tried to catch back up.

Lego
01-26-2006, 10:37 PM
In the Extended Aggro Rock I ran I didn't even play Deed, but I would definitely want it in Legacy. The deck can just go nuts, and I'm really thinking of busting it out, plus Confidant. Here's a list, off the top of my head:

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Dark Confidant

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Putrefy
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Chrome Mox

4 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Volrath's Stronghold

As you can see, I've never played this deck in Legacy. There are no Deeds, too much equipment, and Chrome Moxes. 20 Lands, 3 Chrome Moxes, and 8 Turn 1 mana producers means the deck can pop out that Troll Ascetic or Hyppy on turn 2 regularly, and then equip him on turn 3 or 4. That's not as good in Legacy as it is in Extended, and I don't really know if there's a place for this deck. Ideas?

Anarky87
01-26-2006, 11:40 PM
The only thing I'd worry about is if they stop your rush, such as Smothering your equip creature in response or using the splash damage from Gobs and Thresh against you. Though you have Duress and Therapy to off set this. But at least your threats aren't limited to only Troll and Hyppie, even the mana producers can pick up a weapon and charge in. I'm not sure about the Moxes, unless you had something ideally unimportant to pitch (two Elves for example).

I was actually going to mention Confidant to you as I saw it mentioned somewhere else in a more aggro-ish Rock. Your build could probably support Putrefy better with all the accel. Maybe if you cut the Moxes and a Putrefy, you could fit in 4 Pernicious Deed, since you said you wanted it. The thing with that is that it's pretty unsynergistic with your creatures and equipment as anything less than 3 hits Birds, Elves, Jitte, Moxes (if you end up playing them) and Confidant (your extra draw). Going higher takes out Troll, Hyppie, and Sword.

Lego
01-27-2006, 07:36 PM
That's most of the reason that I'm not running the Deeds. I still would like to find a way to fit in E-Witness, but I've never tested it, and right now the Troll's untargetability just seem better.

The Moxes can go, it's just that in Extended they put you a turn ahead of everyone else, dropping two mana creatures on turn 1 can mean a turn 3 equipped Troll swinging, and turn 1 Confidant is a really fun play.

I've thought about Nimble Mongoose too, as he's just beats, and I've also thought about removing the equipment for other finishers. That would probably mean dropping the Elves, adding in Mongoose, and dropping the equippment for something like Baloth (or a white splash for Hierarch.) What do you think about that?

Bane of the Living
01-27-2006, 08:13 PM
In the varient I play I use Oversold Cemetery. It's quite good, esp with dredge in town. I'ts great in place of deed cause you can rip resources out of your yard via recurring witness. You dredge away all your goodies and she rips em all back home.

Anarky87
01-28-2006, 12:21 PM
Mongoose is an idea. Between Duress, Cabal Therapy, creature kill (if you decide to run any), and some fetchlands, you could hit thresh pretty easily. In that case what would we be looking at?

-Creatures- 22
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Dark Confidant
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Ravenous Baloth/Hierarch (not sure since you have Confidant)
2 Eternal Witness
2 ??? (Not sure what else)

-Other- 17
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Smother/Diabolic Edict
2 Putrefy
3 Pernicious Deed (just thinking with Baloth and Troll, might not be so bad)
2 ??? (Or two of something here, I had CotH, which now I see isn't so hot)

-Land- 21
4 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire/Savannah
4 Wasteland
2 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Forests
2 Swamps (-1 for a Plains if you go that route)

That's just a random list out of my head at 10 in the morning. I'd just run Baloth over Hierarch. I mean with a white splash you'd get StP and Disenchant, but Deed can take care of enchantments. Hierarch is neat in that you can pop him in response to a Deed to keep all your guys. I made confidant a three of since most of the deck is two's and three's and tops off at four. If he gets too dangerous, you could off him to Therapy/block/etc. to get rid of him, because you could always recur him with Witness/Stronghold. Did you have any more ideas? Or feel free to make whatever changes to that list, I'm just throwing crap around.

Bane of the Living
01-28-2006, 01:11 PM
Here's the Rock/Cemetery deck I'll be playing tomorrow. It's actually my extended deck with dualies. Help me tweak it for tomorrow.

4 Bayou
3 Overgrown Tomb
1 Taiga
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
3 Ravenous Baloth
4 Eternal Witness
2 Troll Aestetic
1 Anger
1 Faceless Butcher
1 Flame Tongue Kavu
2 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Stinkweed Imp
1 Golgari Grave Troll

4 Oversold Cemetery
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Buried Alive
2 Darkblast


SB
1 Bone Shredder
1 Braids
1 Kataki
1 Goblin Pyromancer
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Duress
2 Death Cloud
1 Darkblast
3 Tormods Crypt

Cemetery has been one of my favorite decks since back in the days of skullclamp. I recently asked myself why I always play deed over cemetery, they're both great cards. Playing buried alive and getting something like witness, troll, anger is awsome. Try it out.

Lego
01-28-2006, 02:32 PM
That seems like an interesting list, but I'm not sure I would call it the Rock ;)

As for what to do with it, I might put in a little more disruption and a few less creatures, but that's tough because of all the Dredge. The real problem is the board, definitely fix that up. There's some Extended tech that needs to go.

Majestyk1136
02-01-2006, 03:55 PM
Deed + Oversold Cemetery = teh anti-Synergy

So does Nimble Mongoose for the most part.

Now, I like what you've done but I'm wondering why you've chosen to use Carven Caryatid over Wall of Blossoms. I mean sure, the +2/+1 is nice and all, but unless you savagely mise the first turn Bird you're looking at getting nuked by an unblocked Lackey quite a bit. Buried Alive is fine, but it's a 3-cost sorcery that doesn't say "Win the Game" or "Go Broken."

Against control this is fine but against Goblins it's slower than Stephen Hawking trying to Riverdance. I also think that less than 4 Deed is not OK. It serves the purpose of like 5 targeted removal spells at once. Last point: Volrath's Stronghold is not all that exciting in my opinion. Genesis may not be all that exciting but it's better than a land that dies to the most commonly played card in Legacy (Wasteland.)

In a related note I won a small tournament with this deck last sunday against a largely Aggro field. There was also A 2-land Belcher deck there but I didn't play it.

This is definitely shaping up pretty strong.

Lego
02-01-2006, 04:58 PM
Wasteland is most certainly not the most played card in Legacy (that honor probably belongs to "Mountain" or "Island" and if you're going for non-basics, it probably belongs to Lackey or Nimble Mongoose (maybe Werebear?))

As for the Deeds, I definitely don't think they're an auto-include, it really depends on where you're going with your build. My build plays too many low cc permanents and is more aggro, so it couldn't handle the Deeds blowing everything up.

Anarky87
02-01-2006, 05:24 PM
After play testing, I've just found the Caryatid to be more of an MVP than WoB ever was. You're not just blocking an attacker that's going to swing again next turn, you're stopping the attacker and most of the time killing it. And I usually don't get all, "OMG LACKEY, I'M PWNED!!!" everytime it comes down. It honestly doesn't bother me, because I just keep my game plan set, play some dudes, nuke some of their guys, then Deed. The idea is not lose the game already in your head just because they played Lackey. Besides, I usually don't have that much trouble game 2 with 4 Plague, 4 Deed, 4 Smother, etc.

So far I've not had any trouble with Volrath's Stronghold. Sure, it get's Wasted a few times, but you act like that happens at least 4 times every game. I think in that last tournament I played in it got Wasted a massive total of 2 times in 5 rounds. The bottom line was that it was there when I needed it. My deck doesn't revolve around getting it and abusing it, it's something nice to have when I can use it.

And, depending what build you're going for, Deed doesn't really have to be in 4's. If you feel it's going to have bad synergy witht the rest of your deck, cut it back to where you won't see 2 every game, or just cut it altogether. I'm going to play it again in a tournament tonight, so I'll have those results up when I get back or the next day.

[Form]
02-01-2006, 06:18 PM
in legacy with the rock being so slow for creature beats (when compared to goblins) i think that deeds is a must in order to deal with the hoard. When combined with hand disrutipon that kind of board disruption cand take the gobnlin player from having everything to nothing in the first couple of turns giving you time to drop some beats. I think in a format with the winningest deck being a fast horde deck, deeds is a must to keep the board in check in addition to hand control the rock already provides.

Anarky87
02-01-2006, 07:01 PM
']in legacy with the rock being so slow for creature beats (when compared to goblins) i think that deeds is a must in order to deal with the hoard. When combined with hand disrutipon that kind of board disruption cand take the gobnlin player from having everything to nothing in the first couple of turns giving you time to drop some beats. I think in a format with the winningest deck being a fast horde deck, deeds is a must to keep the board in check in addition to hand control the rock already provides.

I totally agree. Against Goblins, my early game is just controlling their creatures/hand. When I've then gained control, I start my beatdown. But Deeds is just an all star in the Goblin matchup, they have no other option but to over commit, and when they do, you sweep them. It get's even better in Game 2 bringing in Engineered Plague, then you can clear the board of the little stuff, then Deed any stragglers. The discard helps alot too, I won my 3rd round against Goblins simply by stripping him of Warchief and double Lackey with Cabal Therapy. Sometimes the deck can just get outright crazy.

Majestyk1136
02-02-2006, 02:17 PM
']in legacy with the rock being so slow for creature beats (when compared to goblins) i think that deeds is a must in order to deal with the hoard. When combined with hand disrutipon that kind of board disruption cand take the gobnlin player from having everything to nothing in the first couple of turns giving you time to drop some beats. I think in a format with the winningest deck being a fast horde deck, deeds is a must to keep the board in check in addition to hand control the rock already provides.

Quoted for TRUTHERY. You are not going to out-aggro the best aggro deck. And trading 1-for-1 with Goblins is a sure-fire way of ending up far behind on cards once they pop Ringleader. You simply have to be able to sweep their men off the board and if they are relying on Vial for their mana then you can effectively mana-screw them too if you get off the godly Deed.

@Lego_Army_man: Basic Island certainly isn't the most commonly played card in legacy by the measure of Occurrence per decks played. By number of decks that play the card I'd wager that Wasteland outdoes Island by a pretty decent margin if not by total number. Decks that are playing blue at this point are playing Islands of the Tropical or Tundra persuasion with a couple of basics sprinkled in to have some resistance to Wasteland. Nobody plays Solidarity around here, but nearly everybody plays Wasteland.

@Anarky: you may be able to hold off the inevitable attack for an extra turn due to the fact that Caryatid has power greater than 0, but its still a turn slower. Despite your cavalier attitude towards simply accepting a turn 1 Lackey and not being able to block it I sincerely doubt that you are winning a large percentage of the games where those games start out "Mountain, Lackey, Go" and you respond by saying "Forest, Go."

Plenty of the Goblins decks that I've played against lately have been packing maindeck StP to get blockers out of the way. Committing your entire turn 3 to Caryatid to prevent yourself from essentially dying and having that wall sent to the farm is fatal. You just won't have enough mana to set up mass removal if that sort of play happens. At least if I get my wall Swordsed on turn 2 the tempo gain that the Gobbos player gets isn't as large as it is when they basically undo your entire turn 3.

Caryatid also does little or nothing extra against Thresh that WoB doesn't do because their men aren't killed by it when they have threshold and they can regularly have that on turn 3-4 when you have your Caryatid online. Lastly, you are sacrificing a playset of 2-drops in a deck that needs its second turn to be strong in the games when you don't get a first turn Bird. I don't want to be disagreeable, but with all of the threats to your mana base in Legacy there is certainly a legitimate fear that you may end up being unable to cast a 3-drop on turn 3 with or without a bird! Trying to flatten the curve in this deck is critically important.

Anarky87
02-02-2006, 05:19 PM
Quoted for TRUTHERY. You are not going to out-aggro the best aggro deck. And trading 1-for-1 with Goblins is a sure-fire way of ending up far behind on cards once they pop Ringleader. You simply have to be able to sweep their men off the board and if they are relying on Vial for their mana then you can effectively mana-screw them too if you get off the godly Deed.

@Lego_Army_man: Basic Island certainly isn't the most commonly played card in legacy by the measure of Occurrence per decks played. By number of decks that play the card I'd wager that Wasteland outdoes Island by a pretty decent margin if not by total number. Decks that are playing blue at this point are playing Islands of the Tropical or Tundra persuasion with a couple of basics sprinkled in to have some resistance to Wasteland. Nobody plays Solidarity around here, but nearly everybody plays Wasteland.

@Anarky: you may be able to hold off the inevitable attack for an extra turn due to the fact that Caryatid has power greater than 0, but its still a turn slower. Despite your cavalier attitude towards simply accepting a turn 1 Lackey and not being able to block it I sincerely doubt that you are winning a large percentage of the games where those games start out "Mountain, Lackey, Go" and you respond by saying "Forest, Go."

Plenty of the Goblins decks that I've played against lately have been packing maindeck StP to get blockers out of the way. Committing your entire turn 3 to Caryatid to prevent yourself from essentially dying and having that wall sent to the farm is fatal. You just won't have enough mana to set up mass removal if that sort of play happens. At least if I get my wall Swordsed on turn 2 the tempo gain that the Gobbos player gets isn't as large as it is when they basically undo your entire turn 3.

Caryatid also does little or nothing extra against Thresh that WoB doesn't do because their men aren't killed by it when they have threshold and they can regularly have that on turn 3-4 when you have your Caryatid online. Lastly, you are sacrificing a playset of 2-drops in a deck that needs its second turn to be strong in the games when you don't get a first turn Bird. I don't want to be disagreeable, but with all of the threats to your mana base in Legacy there is certainly a legitimate fear that you may end up being unable to cast a 3-drop on turn 3 with or without a bird! Trying to flatten the curve in this deck is critically important.

Actually on the contrary, I can't say I've lost a large percentage of my games with them playing Lackey, go. Unless they've just gone nutty and dropped some insane stuff, which would have happened anyway, WoB or not, sometimes I just can't help that. And I do usually keep a hand that's more than Forest, Forest, Bayou, Wasteland, Swamp, Wooded Foothills, Carven Caryatid. Sometimes there's a turn 1 bird, sometimes not, but then there's also Tribe Elder, Smother, or I Therapy away something that they were gonna drop with Lackey. I'm not saying that Carven Caryatid is the end all answer in the Rock, but I've started to like it more and more over Wall of Blossoms. They play mountain, Lackey, go. You play Forest, go. They play Mountain, swing with Lackey, drop something broken and pass the turn. You play some land and WoB...congrats for you...

If you wanna play with WoB, then go right ahead and play with the WoB. The Goblins decks you're facing are splashing white for StP, the Goblins decks I face do not, and so CC has not been that much of a kick me in the balls, apocalyptic tempo loss as earlier described. And against Thresh, they achieve threshold and charge right on through your WoB, it's happened to me before. CC blocks everything, save for Mystic Enforcer, in their deck and lives. I can't say that much for WoB.

Lastly, if you want to make an adjustment to the deck to suit your tastes, then go right ahead. Never anywhere did I say my presented list was the only way to construct the deck. If you want to Change CC for WoB, then by God, go ahead and change it. I really don't think some flying skull head will crash through your window and gnaw on your ankles if you do. I just stated what is working in my particular meta, The Rock is an adaptable deck. If a certain aspect isn't jiving in your meta, then simply change to something that does.

Majestyk1136
02-03-2006, 12:40 AM
This deck steamrolls Thresh anyways. Their long game looks like lucksacking one of their two Mystic Enforcers and praying that you don't get that Deed or Witness to mop them up. Their cantrips simply aren't going to get the job done against a constant assault of Wastelands, Duresses, Therapies and Deeds. FoW looks pretty tepid compared to this deck. Just my opinion.

Goblins is a more pernicious threat in my opinion due to its grotesque speed that you just can't deal with sometimes.

Anarky87
02-09-2006, 02:08 AM
I played The Rock again tonight in another tournament and ended up winning this time. There was also alot more variety in this tournament and I never played the same deck twice. I was able to play games against a bad Elf deck (Guess you have to knock these guys out sometime), Goblins, Threshold, a R/G/W aggro deck with mostly new Guildpact stuff, and, in the finals, Pikula, which I pulled out of in Game 3. If anyone wants, I'll post the matches later on.

Majestyk1136
02-09-2006, 02:21 AM
Please do. I'm trying to get this thread bumped up to the open forum and we need substantiation for why we ought to.

So, be very detailed.

Zelyon
02-09-2006, 02:18 PM
Here's the rock deck I'm using. It's meant to be A Faster Fatter Rock That Thrashes Aggro decks.

I would like constructive criticism on improving it. But playing mana sources and lots of fat is the critical strategy of this deck that differentiates it from Rock just a bit (more fat and more mana soucres). That's how it overwhelms control with threats, beats goblins and fast aggro with fast fat and loses to combo presideboard (but makes up for this easily post sideboard). So the fat and mana sources are important and can't really be cut.

//Mana
7 Forest
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Gaea's Cradle
4 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Wall of Roots or Quirion Ranger (provides two mana if you miss a land drop, and neuters wastelands, sinkholes etc)

//Utility
2 Viridian Zealot (can be fetched with Natural Order in a pinch)

//Massive Fatties That Each Win By Themselves
4 Natural Order
4 Spiritmonger
3 Iwamori of the Open Fist - You could run 4 since don't want to overextend yourself by playing more than one at a time anyways.
3 Jitte - You could run 4 since don't want to overextend yourself by playing more than one at a time anyways.
2 Fangren Firstborn
2 Call of the Herd
2 Genesis
1 Phantom Nisoba


Change 1: Recent changes include removing the wish board. These were inspired by grimmy's thread and criticisms of the wish board.
-4 Living Wish
-2 Blastoderm

+3 Greater Good
+3 Iwamori of the Open Fist
+2 Viridian Zealot

Change 2: Recent changes include
-3 Greater Good (Card advantage when a fatty is about to die anyways, especially if it's pumped with Jitte. Cut because it was a win more card.)
-2 Utility Slots (Root Maze or Living Wish or Duress or Tangle Wire or Yavimaya Elder or something.)
-2 Windswept Heath

+1 Jitte
+1 Iwamori of the Open Fist
+2 Call of the Herd
+3 Forest

//Sideboard
Landstill Hate
Combo Hate (Root Maze, Duress etc)

Other maindeck cards considered...

Night's Whispers
Reanimate
Yavimaya Elder
Putrefy
Troll Ascetic
Treetop Village
Plow Under
Duress
Other cards that I forgot about.

This is a very strong and resilient deck. It'll almost always lay down a big fatty or tangle wire second turn and if not, will always lay one down by turn three.

It plays 24 cards that Threshold has to counter if it wants a decent shot at winning. It plays 20 threats that can stand up to virtually everyone of goblin's creatures. And it generates tons of mana very very quickly thus making playing these creatures on turn 2 or 3 at the latest a near certainity and makes it very resilient to pikula's mana disruption. Pikula usually gets off one discard spell before this plays a threat that Pikula will have a very hard time dealing with. And it usually gets out more permanents on the board faster than Stax. And it gets out bigger threats faster than Rock, threats that Rock has a tough time dealing with.

Think of Living Wish as a more versatile, less mana intensive and faster Surivival of the Fittest that dont require you to fill up your maindeck wiht Squee and utility creatures that you hate drawing when you don't need them.

Now for the bad news, it needs a living wish to beat combo except when it manages to race it or the combo deck fizzles on it's own. It also loses to landstill, but then again, no one seems to be playing that deck.

Always remember to hold back a big threat and a mana source in case your opponent plays a board sweeper. The main reason new people lose with this deck is when they get greedy and overextend needlessly.

This deck has performed very strongly for me. But since this is very different from any other deck in the metagame today, I'm sure it can be improved upon. And I'm quite sure that it's not yet optimal.

Thanks.

Anarky87
02-09-2006, 07:08 PM
Ok, I'll try to be. This was about the same size as the last tournament 2 weeks ago. I changed nothing about the deck, except trading for the last Bayou I needed, and finally adding +2 Perish to the SB.

Round 1: Dennis with Elves! 2-0

Game 1: This wasn't even "Elves!" This was more like...."Oh...Elves.." Game 1 he sits on one land the entire game, and I pretty much goldfish him and win with a Troll and a Baloth.

Game 2: -4 Duress, +4 E. Plague. He mentions how it's funny he isn't hitting any land when he put 25 in it...I make a mental "Wtf..." and move on. He has me play first, so I drop a fetch and dig for Bayou, he plays a Wirewood Lodge and passes turn. I play a Forest, Tribe Elder and send it to him. He plays...nothing and passes. I crack Elder at the end of his turn for a swamp, untap, lay E. Plague for Elf and he insists on playing it out. So out of annoyance, the next turn I drop Wasteland and Waste his only land, then go on to win with Baloth with double Deed in hand.

Round 2: Travis with Goblins 2-1

Game1: This was the guy I lost to two weeks ago to in the finals. I keep what I think is gonna be an average hand, but then I don't draw a third land for pretty much the entire game and he does what Goblins do.

Game 2: -4 Duress, +4. Let me just describe this in two words: Triple Plague. He started off with Land, Vial. I brought an E. Plague down turn 3, then simply waited out the second one, picking off Goblins here and there. He kept playing and managed to drop two Patrons, which ran right into my Putrefy's, and when I layed the third Plague, he scooped.

Game 3: Game three he mulligans down to 4 just to even find land. And I win on the back of Engineered Plague and Troll/Baloth.

Round 3: My friend Nate with Threshold (4 Color) 2-1

Game 1: My deck played that game again where I don't draw more than 2 playable lands. He ramped up to Thresh, while countering my irrelevent stuff and won with a Mongoose and Werebear.

Game 2: -3 Putrefy, +3 Perish. I couldn't quite remember the details of this game, so I asked Nate. His response was, "I played some critters, then you played some, then I countered some stuff, then you killed my critters. Then I played more, then you killed them, then you won." I remember though baiting out a Deed and wiping the board to stabilize.

Game 3: This was a close game. He delivered most of the early game beats with a quickly thresholded Goose and beat me down to 7. I then stabilize when he has no counters and I land a Deed and then blow it for 1. My next couple turns have me laying down double Caryatid and Baloth, while he lays down Meddling Mages as chump blockers as I beat him down to 5. He stops to think for moment and then tells me I have the game as I've Wasted most of his white sources away and he can't play Engineered Explosives to nail my Baloth.

Round 4: Justin with R/G/w Guildpact Beats 2-0

Game 1: His game consisted of a Burning-Tree Shaman practically going all the way, while I built up mana. I then play Troll and Baloth, Baloth beats in while Troll stops the Shaman, who now is equipped with a Jitte. The game is essentially over, because I also have Stronghold out so I can loop the Baloth for life. On his turn, his board is a bunch of land, a Scab-Clan Mauler, and a Burning-Tree Shaman equipped with Jitte. He then, for some reason, plays ANOTHER Jitte and spends a good 45 seconds, figuring out how he wants it equipped. He ends up double equipping the Shaman, and after which, I calmly say, "Jitte is legendary." He looks at them and then throws one practically across the table and tells me I got it.

Game 2: Game 2 I Duressed away a Pyroclasm first turn I think. He has a hand of some land, a Rumbling Shum and Burning-Tree Shaman. Next turn I Therapy naming the Shum, because I'm holding a Smother for the Shaman. He ends up playing the Shaman and I Smother it when he swings. I land a Troll and start beating, while he stock piles spells in his hand. He plays a Ghostly Prison and says to some guy standing near him, "Let's go." and laughs. So...I continue beating with my Troll and then bring down another. he plays another Prison and so I just pay 4 for each of my Trolls and keep swinging. I draw a Duress and play it because I want to see what's in his hand, in response, he double Chars me for 8. I take it and finish him with the Trolls and me at 5 life.

Round 5: Finals, Ryan with Pikula 2-1

Game 1: I actually loved this match up, partly because Ryan is so easy going and humorous and both games were just a slugfest of resource denial. Game 1 exploded with both of us slamming discard and land destruction at each other. I Smother a Confidant, and ate a chunk of damage from a Shade. I drop a Deed and blow it on his turn. We kinda catch our breath the next few turns, but I land a Troll and go all the way, thanks to his confidant.

Game 2: Game 2 he just ended up with way more disruption than I could muster. All but two of my lands were vindicated/sinkholed/Wasted, and I sat with a load of 3cc spells in my hand, but did manage to Therapy away 2 Rituals and died to Confidant and Specter.

Game 3: He plays a Scrubland and passes, I Duress him and get rid of a Sinkhole. He plays a Wasteland and passes. I also lay a Wasteland and Duress him again for another Sinkhole and before I pass, Waste his Scrub and send it back to him. He goes on to draw 1 Swamp for the rest of the game, while I just continue to pick apart his hand and Swing with a Troll. In the late game he Must have ripped a Ritual and throws down a Phyrexian Scuta, which I Putrefy at the end of his turn. I play a Baloth and end my turn. He draws and must not have drawn a land because he just tosses the top half of his deck into the air and tells me I won.

I ended up with $20 cash this time, which made me happy. I got some Cursed Scrolls off my friend for my Pox deck and then left. I'm sorry if this isn't too terribly detailed, the matches aren't as vivid as they were last time. I'll take a notebook with me next time and write down what happened at the end of each match. I do think this deck can take on a good portion of meta right now, save for combo, that's usually an auto-loss and I'm looking for ways to shore that up. Perish I felt was particualry weak, because I held it all of game 3 in the Threshold match, not wanting to cast it because I'd screw myself too. I'm probably going to find something else to replace it with.

I recommend people sleeve this up and give it a whirl. Not only is it alot of fun, but it hammers through Aggro and Control metas pretty hard, especially if you don't know or can't predict what the meta will look like, because the deck handles practically every deck strategy in the MD. And you can make any changes you want to the deck to fit what your area calls for, or maybe just something you feel more comfortable with. I'm also open to questions, thanks!

Majestyk1136
02-09-2006, 11:43 PM
Hit me with your decklist Anarky. I assume it's close to what's on the top of the page. I dont' know if you're playing with Hymn in the Board to shore up your Combo Matchup. It tends to tear those guys a new hole... After boarding you'll have something like 12 discard spells and the Witnesses to recur them. So you realistically have to hold them off for about 5 turns while a Troll or Baloth whacks them. You should check out my primer for the rock here: http://www.blackgoldsports.com/legacy_rock.htm

Anarky87
02-10-2006, 12:07 AM
That was an interesting read, Majestyk, and I think I'm going to do some testing of swapping Wall of Blossoms back in for Caryatid and see how that goes for me. Anyway, the list I've been running is as follows:

-Land-
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Forests
3 Swamps
2 Volrath's Stronghold

-Creatures-
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Carven Caryatid (Going to test WoB again here soon)
3 Troll Ascetic
3 Ravenous Baloth
2 Eternal Witness

-Other-
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Smother
3 Putrefy

-Sideboard-
4 Engineered Plague
4 Tormod's Crypt (I've yet to actually side these in against anything)
3 Perish (Will probably get replaced with Hymns)
2 Eternal Witness
1 Ravenous Baloth
1 Troll Ascetic

I had thought about Hymn, but wasn't sure about it with my lands the way they are now. I might retool it to get some Bloodstained Mires in there if I'm going to be running the Hymns. I'm not even sure about the Crypts either, I put them in for Thresh, but I never actually feel the need to side them in. If I lose, it's always because I was mana screwed or flooded, or they just had one of those hands where they can counter anything I tap a land for. I would like to see this deck get some external recognition (Only a little, I like it being under the radar so I can continue going undefeated through tournaments).

Majestyk1136
02-10-2006, 11:26 AM
That's some strong sauce. You're playing in a very aggro dominated metagame aren't you? I have essentially the same numbers of cards as you performing the same tasks (after a fashion) with the exception being that I'm playing Life from the Loam because I view it as a necessity to beating Deadguy. Regrowth for 3 is strong in that matchup.

I can see why you were having trouble with Combo... not being able to cause bulk discard with Hymn is bad against combo decks. I'm using the Wretch as GY hate because I have the Toolbox Wishboard. Living Wish is my Terror, (Bone Shredder) Crypt, (Wretch) extra discard, (Ravenous Rats) and Recursion. (Genesis)

I'm probably going to submit some revisions to that primer today. So check it out later.

Darth Troll is watching.

Anarky87
02-10-2006, 11:58 AM
Yeah, it's pretty aggro oriented, and I've yet to face any form of combo, but was kinda worried about my game against it. Lftl would be very strong against Deadguy, that was the first time I had ever played against that guy when he was playing the deck. I thought I would get hammered pretty good, but I managed to pull game 1 out and beat with a Troll he couldn't touch, and land denialing him Game 3. And I'll be sure to check out your primer when my classes are over today.

Majestyk1136
02-13-2006, 01:18 PM
The updates to the primer that I made were posted on Friday. By no means do I believe that the suggestions therein are written in stone. They are simply the best that I am able to do given the testing I have done.

One of the requirements that was cited when I requested promotion of the thread was that we need a somewhat agreed upon decklist with exception made for metagame slots. Examples would be the choice of Smother Vs Putrefy or WoB vs Caryatid. Other structural changes (Wishboard vs MD Stronghold for example) are debatable, but seem to be based upon personal preference or metagame consideration. Which one would win in a straight up fight probably wouldn't be the deciding factor as the odds of running into another deck of this type are low. You're more likely to run into a Rec/Sur deck (which we should stomp thanks to not being reliant on bad cards like Survival) and we need to determine what would be the more favorable build against the rest of the field.

Once we determine that, we need to begin posting results and somehow get somebody to do well in a semi-large event (me winning the local sunday tournament and Anarky winning his local tournament in Indiana may be nice and all but are not the defining results we need) with a decklist that is recognizable as one similar to these. We will then have achieved what we need to get promotion to Open.

Anarky87
02-13-2006, 05:14 PM
I see, well that is very interesting. I know if there were consistent, large tournament events close to me (most likely in Indianapolis), it would be my first choice, as that would give me some invaluable information being that I would get to play against varied decks. And I wish I could get to more than one tournament a week, but there seems to be a moat surrounding the area I live in in Illinois. Most are up around Chicago which is a good 2:30-3:00 hour drive for me and with school, that's hard to accomplish.

I've made a slight change to the list I posted earlier, in that, I cut one Sakura Tribe Elder for one Troll Ascetic from the board. I found last week that I would have the game completely controlled, but waiting for a finisher or swinging with the Elder until something came along. So far the change has been positively yielding results, and I'll get to try it out this Wednesday, along with WoB and my retooled SB. I went ahead and added some Life from the Loams to my SB for Deadguy. I talked it over with my friend last night and ,from what you had already mentioned as well, decided it would be hot against Deadguy. So those changes will be tested later this week.

I'd also like to encourage anyone else who would like to help to jump on in. It's much easier accumulating data that way then just Majestyk and I bouncing ideas off of each other. I'm sure he, as well as I, would love to hear some input or results from anyone trying this out. This is my current list for the record:

-Land-
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Forests
3 Swamps
2 Volrath's Stronghold

-Creatures-
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Ravenous Baloth
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness

-Other-
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Smother
3 Putrefy

-Sideboard- (still developing)
4 Engineered Plague
2 Eternal Witness
1 Ravenous Baloth
0-4 Hymn to Tourach
0-2 Life from the Loam

Lukas Preuss
02-13-2006, 05:24 PM
I just wanted to point out, that I have absolutely no experience with this deck, so if my suggestions are stupid, feel free to tell me. ;)

I noticed, that you are running Life from the Loam in the sideboard. Have you thought about including them in the maindeck (supported by some cycling lands)?

As I said, I have no experience with this deck, but I love this card... :)

Lego
02-13-2006, 07:42 PM
I don't think it is smart to be using time cycling lands and playing Life from the Loam. The deck needs to be disrupting the opponent's hand, casting beaters, equipping and winning.

Oh wait, we're talking about two different decks here. If you're playing the more controllish version of Rock, I think Life is just fine, but if you're playing the more aggro version (like myself) I don't think Life has a place.

Whenever Life is mentionted, I always want to include Wasteland though. Just a though. And maybe a few more fetches.

Anarky87
02-13-2006, 08:18 PM
I take no suggestions as stupid, because every little bit helps, and you may hit something I may not have thought of =) As for lftl, I think it can be super helpful against Deadguy, but against other decks, it kinda loses it's thunder. And I've never really felt the need for more draw, with WoB and Eternal Witness the deck is so redundant that I don't think the extra draw that the cycle lands produce is needed.
And like LAM said, if you're running a more aggroish version (how's that doing btw?) then it's kind of distracting to your goal.

I haven't tested that much against Deadguy, just that one match in the finals, and I felt like I did have the "Oops, I win." factor. Still, on retrospect, Life would have helped quite abit in that second game when I didn't have many lands and he drew all the LD in the world. I will test more against Deadguy when I'm able to, if he's at the store Wednesday, I'll play a few games against him, that is, if he hasn't shredded that deck.

Majestyk1136
02-14-2006, 11:11 AM
The reason I included the 2 LftL in my version is that Wasteland is EVERYWHERE where I play Legacy. The problem with Wasteland for your opponents is that if they play it you can break the symmetry of it by undoing the damage they did to your manabase with LftL.

Even against Non-wasteland opponents the power to regrow even a single spent wasteland or single fetchland is invaluable. There are other times when I would find myself wontonly dredging LftL solely for the sake of fattening my graveyard so that the Witnesses I was regrowing with Genesis would have strong targets. You can essentially make sure that you never miss land drops with LftL too because if you dredge it you're pretty much guaranteed to drop a land into the grave that you can regrow and play. As far as the Cycling lands go I messed around with putting a couple in the MD (1 Barren Moor and 1 Tranquil Thicket) and even in the SB as a Living Wish target that I would immediately use to Dredge up LftL late in the game, but the Board is tight as it is. Also, the tempo you lose from having to play a CitpT land is a kick in the junk. If you're forced to play that on turn 1-2 when you need to be making mana you're going to cry. Don't even get me started on what would happen to you if you got one of those lands Wasted...

Rifter is the only deck that can reliably get away with that sort of play... and then not really. Playing Rifter is sort of like playing The Rock in that it's a great anti-aggression deck but has even less chance against combo decks! Orim's Chant and Abeyance do not a combo defense make. Even Rule of Law isn't all that great against the Combo decks as they'll just find a way to bounce it and continue winning. No, repeated savage blows to their head with a blunt instrument (hymn to tourach) is the best way to stop them.

@Anarky: We live in the hinterlands of Legacy, relatively speaking. Big events around here are just not that frequent. They all seem to be on the East Coast. But, on the plus side when I looked at the results in the "what's your metagame?" thread it was a rarity to see that there was not an entry for The Rock as a "1-2 of" for most people. I'd like to get a look at some of those people's lists.

@ everybody else: Thanks for posting in this thread. If you would be so kind as to spend some time reading the primer that I wrote and use that as a baseline that would at least give us a common starting point from which to discuss. Comments that you have would be appreciated. Also, then you would have perspective to understand the differences between Anarky and my builds and why we have gone in the directions that we have gone.

Lego
02-15-2006, 04:43 PM
@Majesty: There's another build that you're forgetting, and I think it is an important one. I don't think that an Aggro Rock build is far enough from the builds here to warrant a different thread, but I think it is a different enough deck that it needs to be mentioned. I don't run a single threat over 3 casting cost, and I don't run Living Wish or Pernicious Deed, but the deck generates twice as much card advantage over the course of any given game, and has a much faster clock. In return for that, it loses some of the late game staying power and board sweeper of Deeds, but it gains a lot of tempo, which I think is more important in this format.

The list should be on one of the earlier pages, or I could post it again and talk about some of the choices if you'd like.

Zelyon
02-15-2006, 05:00 PM
If you played wall of roots over wall of blossoms, you would be able to support stronger more relevent threats like Open Fist etc. I see little reason not to.

Anarky87
02-15-2006, 05:02 PM
@Majesty: There's another build that you're forgetting, and I think it is an important one. I don't think that an Aggro Rock build is far enough from the builds here to warrant a different thread, but I think it is a different enough deck that it needs to be mentioned. I don't run a single threat over 3 casting cost, and I don't run Living Wish or Pernicious Deed, but the deck generates twice as much card advantage over the course of any given game, and has a much faster clock. In return for that, it loses some of the late game staying power and board sweeper of Deeds, but it gains a lot of tempo, which I think is more important in this format.

The list should be on one of the earlier pages, or I could post it again and talk about some of the choices if you'd like.

I wouldn't mind if you went ahead and posted it, give us something to look at and see why you play what you do. I just know that in my meta, Deeds is a must, because there's nothing but cheap, fast aggro running around. But go ahead and post your list, as it might help in finding a more defined list. I'm going to be playing again tonight, so I'll be back here with the details later. Probably not a report, but just certain details that perhaps stood out like how my new SB worked or something.


If you played wall of roots over wall of blossoms, you would be able to support stronger more relevent threats like Open Fist etc. I see little reason not to.

Wall of Roots would help you power out bigger threats, but that's not what I'm trying to accomplish in most games. I'm trying to control the board and supress my opponents game plan. I drain them of resources and early/mid game surge so that I can just drop a Baltoh/Troll and swing for the win while they're trying to catch their breath. Plus with my recursion, I can continually wipe the board as many times as I want until my Stronghold is taken care of. LAM's build, I presume, throws down a bunch of beaters and causes a disruption to his opponent that way, in that, they must deal with his creatures or lose. WoR may help in his build to power out a bigger threat or 1-2 smaller threats, but he may be using Chrome Mox for that, I don't remember so don't hold me to that.

Lego
02-15-2006, 08:09 PM
I've never played this in Legacy, but this is basically a port of my Extended build. Here goes:

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Dark Confidant

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Putrefy
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Chrome Mox

4 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Volrath's Stronghold

20 Lands, 3 Chrome Mox, 8 mana-dudes means that I will consistantly drop a Troll or Hyppy on turn 2 and equip him on turn 3 or 4. Cabal Therapy and Duress are usually enough disruption, and Putrefy is the best removal I had available in Extended. Dark Confidant and SoFI provide the CA I need (along with Hyppy, of course) and Jitte is just a leftover from Extended.

I feel like Eternal Witness needs a place here, and there's too much equipment. Maybe Rancor could find a place, and Wild Mongrel could come back (he was in the old list.) Mesmeric Fiend was also in there for a while. I added Volrath's Stronghold because it's hot.

I don't know if Legacy is really the place for this, but I like it. Another possibility for the more controllish list is the White splash for Loxodon Hierarch and Mortify, but maybe I'm just thinking too much T2 here.

Anarky87
02-16-2006, 01:20 AM
I've never played this in Legacy, but this is basically a port of my Extended build. Here goes:

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Dark Confidant

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Putrefy
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Chrome Mox

4 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Volrath's Stronghold

20 Lands, 3 Chrome Mox, 8 mana-dudes means that I will consistantly drop a Troll or Hyppy on turn 2 and equip him on turn 3 or 4. Cabal Therapy and Duress are usually enough disruption, and Putrefy is the best removal I had available in Extended. Dark Confidant and SoFI provide the CA I need (along with Hyppy, of course) and Jitte is just a leftover from Extended.

I feel like Eternal Witness needs a place here, and there's too much equipment. Maybe Rancor could find a place, and Wild Mongrel could come back (he was in the old list.) Mesmeric Fiend was also in there for a while. I added Volrath's Stronghold because it's hot.

I don't know if Legacy is really the place for this, but I like it. Another possibility for the more controllish list is the White splash for Loxodon Hierarch and Mortify, but maybe I'm just thinking too much T2 here.

That looks like it could be a house in Extended, if we ever have any, I might just sleeve that up being that I have most of the cards, save for SoFI and Moxes. Of course, my knowledge of Extended is almost nothing, but it looks fun. I'm not sure which equipment I would swap out for Rancor, being that both of those are sweet. I might go with cutting the Jittes, just because SoFI shoots things and nets you a card. If you think you can, you could back down on some land and a Duress for 3 Witnesses, though never playing this, you would have more knowledge in that realm then I, having played it in Extended.

I split 1st and 2nd tonight against a deck that totally would have pwned me, in fact, I drew with him earlier. After the draw, we decided to play it out just to see, and he took me both games. He was playing a G/W....aggro deck? He ran Argothian and Verduran Enchantress for draw, along with that he played Ancestral Mask, Rancor, and Armadillo Cloak. For creatures, He must have had 4 Trolls and possibly 2 Endless Wurm. I tried hard the first game, but once he had 2 Trolls enchanted and swinging, I couldn't deal. Game 2 was pretty much the same. I don't think it will be a problem, as he said he never gets out on Wednesdays because of work, but it made me think. I also played against a budget version of Alluren in the 1st round. I beat him Game 1, then I didn't really get that much disruption Game 2 and he comboed off, then I Deeded him a few times while he was going off to win Game 3. And that's all I have, I handily beat Thresh in 3 games, would have been 2, but I kept a bad hand in Game 2 and that beat me. Thresh is just not a problem, nor is Goblins, and I actually think our group has successfully hated both Goblins and Thresh out of our meta. And with that, I'm out.

Lego
02-16-2006, 02:00 AM
The reason I play so many mana sources is that I pretty much like to skip my two drop, and get a Hyppy or Troll on turn 3, equipped and swining ASAP.

I would be willing to put in the Witnesses, and if I took anything out for Rancor it'd be the Jittes. Swords are much nicer on a Bird :)

I'm still wondering if Mongrel fits the list. He's just got that whole fear thing that people can't handle. It doesn't matter if he is big, just that he could be.

Majestyk1136
02-16-2006, 04:18 PM
The problem is that no matter what deck you play you're still going to lose to random.dec sometimes... That is not a strike against the deck it just means that somebody's conception of what the metagame would look like was accurate enough to beat it but probably would lose horribly to another Archetype. Rancor and opposing Trolls are definitely a problem for this deck. The only real solution that I can envision is using edicts or something to kill the opposing trolls. Or knock the trolls out of their hand before they play 'em.

@LAM: The aggro plan is fine as long as you can out-Aggro the best aggro deck. I don't see how this is going to beat goblins more than 50% of the time because you're going to A) Be killing yourself with Confidant, B) using Putrefy is Slooooow against goblins, and C) if you get behind against goblins you have no real way of getting back ahead of them by ruining their board or punishing them for overcommitting. Sure in your board you'll be able to bring in Plague or whatever, but it seems like your overall card economy is hurt by only having Stronghold for recursion, and if that becomes annoying it'll get Wasted or be too expensive to use effectively. Your best play is still a Troll wielding a Sword or Jitte which destroys pretty much everything anyways. I hate being reliant on needing to combine cards to that large of an extent to have it be good/playable.

To see why equipment is sometimes poor one need only look at Angel Stompy and see that that deck simply runs out of threats and will sit there with equipment that can do nothing without a man to put it on. Granted, Troll is more impressive than say, Isamaru or Savannah Lions but that doesn't mean he's invincible.

EDIT: Congrats to Anarky for cleaning house at his local tournament again. BTW: Living Wish for Bone Shredder is Tech against teh fat. :D

Anarky87
02-16-2006, 04:56 PM
I've actually been considering running 4 Edicts in my board to swap in for the 4 Smothers for situations like the one I had. But then when my friend took Mystic Enforcer out of his deck, I never made the change. And I really don't have a problem with fatties as I just Therapy them out of their hand or Putrefy them. I ran two Life from the Loam in my SB, but I never sided them, and I never played against the Deadguy....guy. I boarded in 3 Hymns against Alluren, but they were hardly needed. But I might fit the Edicts in my SB anyway, just so I don't randomly lose to stuff like that (And so does everyone else, meaning I HAVE to take him on).

But I'm really loving this deck, I even had one guy say after I beat his Threshold in the Top 4 (who's also a very good player), "That deck kicked my ass, I don't know why it isn't showing up in more places." And in the first round, everyone was wishing my opponent "Good luck" since he had to play me, because they knew.

Edit: My SB now consists of 4 Plagues, 4 Edicts, 4 Hymns, 2 Life from the Loam, and 1 Eternal Witness.

Majestyk1136
02-17-2006, 01:18 PM
The answer of course is that the deck is beginning to show up in some form in a lot of places. It's impossible to know what those decks consist of as there are only a few of us posting here but there are plenty of people that report the deck's presence in their metagames. It's entirely likely that those people are simply porting their extended deck into the weekly Legacy tournament without really refining it for the format however so they're not placing highly or the people reporting the deck's presence simply classify any B/G deck as "the Rock" and call it good.

Lego
02-17-2006, 04:17 PM
@ Majesty: You don't have to out-aggro the other decks because you're playing aggro-control, simply with more aggro than control. You have Duress and Cabal Therapy to slow them down (noted, Duress is horrible post-T1, and usually horrible then too, it goes out in G2 against most aggro) and Sword on any creature is pretty much the win. Goblins should be much harder in Legacy, but this deck tore apart Goblins in Extended, so I don't see why it should be able to do that in Legacy as well. Instead of saying that it can't win, how about we present some ways that it might be able to win. Better removal, more disruption, and we can still take the aggro approach, which I think does much better in other matchups.

Remember, for this to be good it doesn't have to out-aggro anything, it just has to disrupt them enough to beat for 20.

Majestyk1136
02-17-2006, 06:34 PM
Goblins was awful in extended as witnessed by PT: LA. It just couldn't compete because it had neither the resilience or speed of the legacy version. If you find yourself in a situation where you're trying to race Goblins you're almost always going to come out on the short end of that stick. Trading 1-for-1 against goblins is a self defeating strategy at best because they will eventually just overwhelm you with card advantage and tempo. The trouble is that I can see you setting up the game winning play of Troll + Sword on the same turn that they're serving with fatal damage and you have to use the Troll you just played as a chump blocker in order to not die immediately.

Anarky87
02-17-2006, 07:27 PM
The answer of course is that the deck is beginning to show up in some form in a lot of places. It's impossible to know what those decks consist of as there are only a few of us posting here but there are plenty of people that report the deck's presence in their metagames. It's entirely likely that those people are simply porting their extended deck into the weekly Legacy tournament without really refining it for the format however so they're not placing highly or the people reporting the deck's presence simply classify any B/G deck as "the Rock" and call it good.

That's how my friend and I first started working on The Rock. We were looking for new decks to play, since he was just now getting back into the format. So he asked me, "How do you think The Rock would do in 1.5?" and I said I didn't know, so we drummed up a list, then tuned it for Legacy. After we had tested a few initial versions, we came up with the list I'm playing now, since during testing it was blowing everything away. But I do agree that people need to actually look at the format they're going to be playing in and tune accordingly.

I think it is starting to catch on at my shop though, as a guy I chat with alot there (the dude who plays Deadguy), asked me if I wanted to trade and I said yeah. As I was going through his stuff I saw the beginnings of deck in his stuff and I bet you can guess what was in it: 4 Pernicious Deed, 2-3 Trolls, 1-2 Baloth, 2 Eternal Witness :) And I had heard him earlier going around asking people, "Do you have any Bayous?" So I hope to have another partner playing The Rock in the near future here.

Zelyon
02-18-2006, 04:38 AM
Anarky, your list looks pretty good but I have few questions.

Sakuri Tribe Elder seems like a card that should stay in standard. A 2cc 1/1 that can sac it self to become a forest. Whoopte doo, it just seems like a waste of a turn to cast him.

Frankly I would rather run a Llanowar Elf or Yavimaya Elder or something. Heck I think Werebear is a much stronger card (it's a mana source too).

Your deck seems very light on threats, especially considerign that you'll lose a couple to your own Deeds. Even baloth is just a 4/4 which means he cant even survive a 2cc werebear much less an exalted angel or masticore, is life gain really that important that you would rather play him over a 5/5 trample (Open Fist). Might you be better off playing solid threats over a cantriping wall?

Anarky87
02-18-2006, 12:34 PM
Anarky, your list looks pretty good but I have few questions.

Sakuri Tribe Elder seems like a card that should stay in standard. A 2cc 1/1 that can sac it self to become a forest. Whoopte doo, it just seems like a waste of a turn to cast him.

Frankly I would rather run a Llanowar Elf or Yavimaya Elder or something. Heck I think Werebear is a much stronger card (it's a mana source too).

Your deck seems very light on threats, especially considerign that you'll lose a couple to your own Deeds. Even baloth is just a 4/4 which means he cant even survive a 2cc werebear much less an exalted angel or masticore, is life gain really that important that you would rather play him over a 5/5 trample (Open Fist). Might you be better off playing solid threats over a cantriping wall?

No, I actually think Sakura-Tribe Elder belongs in the deck. He doesn't just 'fetch a forest', he blocks, kills Lackeys, attacks, fetches Forests, fetches Swamps, allows me to play around Wasteland, pulls 2-1's, overall, I have never been displeased to have him in my hand. Llanowar Elf only produces green, whereas the Elder gives me access to both green and black, something which I like to have available to me. Yavimaya Elder, I found through testing, clogs up your 3 spot. You have 4 Pernicious Deed, 4 Troll Ascetic, 3 Putrefy, and 2 Eternal Witness all gunning for the 3cc spot. When I'm tapping three lands, I want to be bringing down something devastating, YE just isn't. In fact, I had Yavimaya Elder in the original build, and he was most certainly the first creature I cut, Legacy was faster than him. StE comes down faster (without a Bird) and gives me a more effective game. And if I did include Werebear for his buffiness/mana, he'll get blown to bits from any relevant Deed activation, so I would, as you said, be losing more threats to Deed, right? Sakura-Tribe Elder works fine.


I've only ever lost a major creature of mine to a Deed once, because I dropped a Deed on my turn, he went 'teh nutz!' with the Goblin draw, and I had to blow the Deed without enough mana to regen. my Troll. Still ended up winning. You shouldn't be losing your beaters to Deed, most of the time my games go like, "Blow Deed for 3, in response to that, sac Elder and regenerate Troll."

Baloth actually does live through a 2cc Werebear, when it's not threshed. But most of the time, Werebear walks right into Deed/Putrefy/Smother/Baloth(which results in a dead WB and me with 4 life). And Baloth could never dream to combat Exalted Angel sense Baloth is sans flying...I've yet to see anyone in my area play Masticore, but if they did, I could probably kill it without too much trouble. Baloth also just farts up combat math, because he pulls so many different roles. And Open Fist is legendary, meaning I can't have multiples out at the same time whereas I can with Baloth. For most decks, that's too much to handle. I can safely say that I would take Baloth over Open Fist anyday.

This deck isn't about exploding with huge creatures kicking your opponent in the balls, if you want that, go play Goblins. This is a control deck with a creature finish. You control the early/middle game with Deed, Smother, Putrefy, then lay down your beats and go ftw. The deck isn't an aggro deck with some control thrown in, I would lose giving it that role (and I'm sure there's something about misassigning roles in there somewhere). The deck is about punishing creature decks who will have no other choice, but to overcommitt for even a chance at winning. Or ripping Control's hand appart with recurring discard, blowing up anything they've decided to play, and swinging with an untargetable and a huge life gaining beatstick.

In summation, I don't really think I need anymore huge beatsticks to win, as I've been doing just fine without them so far ;) WoB is a good tempo card that's a pain for aggro and a good ground staller. I don't see him getting replaced by a fatty that I may or may not be able to cast anytime soon.

Majestyk1136
02-19-2006, 07:49 PM
Anarky, your list looks pretty good but I have few questions.

Sakuri Tribe Elder seems like a card that should stay in standard. A 2cc 1/1 that can sac it self to become a forest. Whoopte doo, it just seems like a waste of a turn to cast him.

Frankly I would rather run a Llanowar Elf or Yavimaya Elder or something. Heck I think Werebear is a much stronger card (it's a mana source too).

Your deck seems very light on threats, especially considerign that you'll lose a couple to your own Deeds. Even baloth is just a 4/4 which means he cant even survive a 2cc werebear much less an exalted angel or masticore, is life gain really that important that you would rather play him over a 5/5 trample (Open Fist). Might you be better off playing solid threats over a cantriping wall?

I can't really add anything to what Anarky has said already. Playing control seems like it must be utterly foreign to you though to make such comments. This isn't extended from 4 years ago when you could get away with playing a guy like Yavimaya Elder. Sure, he's a Draw 3, but at what price? 5 mana. You're not going to get there in any sort of a hurry in this format with all of the mana denial running around and 2 of the cards you draw are going to be land guaranteed even if the third card isn't. You seem to be fixated on the Open Fist in every thread... If there were ever a Guy that needed to stay in T2 it would be him. He doesn't really satisfy any of the design constraints of Legacy because he neither bolsters your resources or attacks theirs (except for life) and even that isn't all that great of a plan because he's so easy to remove or ignore. By the time your Open Fist is coming online a Tendrils deck is storming you to death. At least the Baloth makes it more interesting by forcing them to storm up to 12 or so (if you can even survive to the point of playing a Baloth) in order to win. Brain freeze decks ignore both of them with aplomb anyways because your threats don't matter unless you can smash their hand and win as an afterthought. Shaving maybe 1 turn off of your kill is not relevant in those matchups because you aren't winning very quickly anyways. That said, Baloth is better in 99% or better of the relevent situations.

Finally, against Goblins if your opponent knows you're playing the Open Fist they'll tutor up Kiki-Jiki to really piss you off too. The downsides outweigh the upsides by such a wide margin that even considering it is sort of silly.

As far as the Elder goes... I would think about playing Rampant Growth or Nature's Lore in this deck if Elder weren't available. Elder is (obviously) strictly superior to those spells because he has the ability to generate this little thing we call "tempo." Whether he's chumping a huge Goblin or stopping a Lackey from smashing into you he's buying critical time for you to get your bombs online and then setting up the ultimate method of winning: Mana Superiority closely followed by card superiority. He's so important in almost every matchup merely because he's a 1/1. That kills almost all of Thresh's men prior to them getting Threshold! That in itself is a victory. He allows you to play Wasteland with fewer consequenses to your own mana development and he fetches out any color Basic Land which is so important in a Wasteland dominated metagame. Absolutely uncuttable.

You don't lose threats to Deed. Period. You're either sacrificing your men in blocking mode prior to setting off a Deed so you can preserve your life total or you're using them to Flashback a Therapy or something prior to that thing going off. So what if a wall or two die to a Deed... Genesis or Stronghold will get it back so it can wreak more havoc.

Zelyon
03-02-2006, 04:07 PM
The rock has gotten a series of low profile high places in multiple tourneys over the past two months.

If you guys can agree on an optimal build or atleast a primer with a couple of interchangable cards, I think you could probably get this moved to the open forum.

Anarky87
03-02-2006, 05:15 PM
That's what we were trying to do, but recently I haven't been able to really play it alot (research papers, tests, college is great!). But I'm going to play it in a tournament this Sunday, so I'll post with the results when I get them. From what little testing I've done against Solidarity, I won 2-1. Game one I had some discard going with Duress and Therapy, then he fizzled when going off. Game two I literally drew none of my boarded discard and got goldfished. Game three I opened a hand of Cabal Therapy x3, Birds of Paradise, Wall of Blossoms, Bayou, and a Wooded Foothills. Needless to say that game was mine.

And that's all I have, my finalized build looks like:

4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mires
4 Forests
3 Swamps
2 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Sakura Tribe Elder
3 Ravenous Baloth
3 Eternal Witness
---------------------
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Smother
3 Putrefy

4 Engineered Plague
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Life from the Loam
1 Duress

That's my list.

*UPDATE: 4/15/06*

Zilla
03-02-2006, 07:50 PM
Shouldn't you do a 2/2 split on fetches between Mire and Foothills so that you can fetch basic Swamps when necessary?

Also, I'd like to see the third Witness in the maindeck, possibly over Duress number 4. They're just so strong with Therapy and the rest of the deck, it hurts not to see at least 3. What's your thinking on this?

Anarky87
03-02-2006, 10:53 PM
Shouldn't you do a 2/2 split on fetches between Mire and Foothills so that you can fetch basic Swamps when necessary?

Also, I'd like to see the third Witness in the maindeck, possibly over Duress number 4. They're just so strong with Therapy and the rest of the deck, it hurts not to see at least 3. What's your thinking on this?

I would encourage that too, Zilla. I just haven't swapped the other two out. When I switched over to the four Hymns in the side, I was going to take 2 Foothills out for 2 Mires. So far it hasn't bothered me hardly at all, due to the Elder, but with the new BB requirement, I'll make the switch.

And you can change 1 Duress for the other Witness, I've just found no need to do that yet, in my meta. Where I play, I'm wishing back Deed or maybe a Smother/Putrefy, sac'd Baloth more often then Therapy. I bring it in during the Combo match ups, and I did Witness for a Duress in the Solidarity match. I don't want to see them alot, and the deck works super so far without the other one. If you feel the need to bring it MD, go ahead. If my meta shifts, I might bump 1 Duress out for it, but as it is right now, the other Duress has been helping me out more. That's what I think anyway.

Lego
03-03-2006, 03:17 AM
If this moves to Open and becomes Primered, should I make a seperate thread for Aggro Rock, continue discussing it here, or just take the hint and stop playing it?

throst54
03-03-2006, 03:31 AM
i still play my rock deck, sure my meta isnt developed much past rdw, goblins, enchantress, and a bunch of janky and rogue decks, though i still think i'd do well in a better meta.

i'll post my deck when i get home,

Majestyk1136
03-03-2006, 01:06 PM
Shouldn't you do a 2/2 split on fetches between Mire and Foothills so that you can fetch basic Swamps when necessary?

Also, I'd like to see the third Witness in the maindeck, possibly over Duress number 4. They're just so strong with Therapy and the rest of the deck, it hurts not to see at least 3. What's your thinking on this?

See my primer on the Rock Here:
http://www.blackgoldsports.com/legacy_rock.htm

The need for double black comes up in matchups where Wasteland is probably not going to see tons of play anyhow.

As you can see, Anarky and I like to switch the numbers on Baloths and Witnesses. I prefer the flexibility the Wishes and Witnesses provide because my meta is... Schizophrenic. I never know what's going to show up, so I have to prepare for everything from Fish to Landstill to Burn to Belcher to Boros deck wins and Affinity. It's weak, so I have to play somewhat agnostically and not commit to one particular plan too much. Therapy is just such a Wrecking Ball in every matchup however that I can't afford to not play the 3 Witnesses.

@ LAM: Play what works in your meta. Don't just blindly accept what somebody in an internet forum says... Unless you feel that one version is inherently stronger than the other. :)

throst54
03-03-2006, 02:36 PM
heres my version of the rock:

// Lands
4 Forest
1 Plains
3 Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Llanowar Wastes
1 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
// Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Eternal Witness
3 Ravenous Baloth
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Troll Ascetic
4 Wall of Blossoms
// Enchantments
4 Pernicious Deed
// Spells
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Living Wish
3 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Aura Thief
SB: 1 Avatar of Woe
SB: 2 Cranial Extraction
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Eternal Witness
SB: 1 Grave-Shell Scarab
SB: 1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
SB: 1 Miren, the Moaning Well
SB: 1 Ravenous Baloth
SB: 1 Thrashing Wumpus
SB: 1 Volrath's Stronghold
SB: 1 Withered Wretch

I splashed white for vindicates, and they work really well with the sinkholes. Though if i were to pull out the sinkholes, for probably hymns, i'd probably use putrefies instead.

also wondering about sakura-tribe elder vs Yavimaya Elder?

Majestyk1136
03-03-2006, 04:38 PM
heres my version of the rock:

// Lands
4 Forest
1 Plains
3 Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Llanowar Wastes
1 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
// Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Eternal Witness
3 Ravenous Baloth
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Troll Ascetic
4 Wall of Blossoms
// Enchantments
4 Pernicious Deed
// Spells
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Living Wish
3 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Aura Thief
SB: 1 Avatar of Woe
SB: 2 Cranial Extraction
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Eternal Witness
SB: 1 Grave-Shell Scarab
SB: 1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
SB: 1 Miren, the Moaning Well
SB: 1 Ravenous Baloth
SB: 1 Thrashing Wumpus
SB: 1 Volrath's Stronghold
SB: 1 Withered Wretch

I splashed white for vindicates, and they work really well with the sinkholes. Though if i were to pull out the sinkholes, for probably hymns, i'd probably use putrefies instead.

also wondering about sakura-tribe elder vs Yavimaya Elder?

If you're going to play sinkholes and Vindicates you're probably better off playing Deadguy Ale. You're attacking resources that don't need to be attacked that strongly. Now, this may be a better setup against something like Solidarity in the MD because you can trash their manabase and prevent them from hitting critical mass so early, but against everything else you may be getting yourself in trouble due to mana inconsistency issues in other matchups. At least Wasteland is something you can put in a deck somewhat agnostically without fiddling your colors.

Zilla
03-03-2006, 07:00 PM
I never know what's going to show up, so I have to prepare for everything from Fish to Landstill to Burn to Belcher to Boros deck wins and Affinity. It's weak, so I have to play somewhat agnostically and not commit to one particular plan too much.
I think you're playing the deck wrong. Agnostically refers to the belief that it's impossible to prove the existence of God. Against a totally unknown meta, it seems like you'd want God on your side.

Majestyk1136
03-04-2006, 11:57 AM
I think you're playing the deck wrong. Agnostically refers to the belief that it's impossible to prove the existence of God. Against a totally unknown meta, it seems like you'd want God on your side.

Agnostic would refer to the notion of being non-committal.

EDIT: Incidentally, asking for divine intervention is folly as God isn't in Colorado this time of year. :/

Zelyon
03-05-2006, 03:20 AM
Seriously, the deck only plays 7 relevant threats. What happens in games wher you don't even draw one, beat down with 1/1 elder. Plus, almost every deck is running countermagic, Swords, removal, burn etc, keeping threats in play is a very hard task. You can really only hope to keep Troll Ascetic in play, assuming you draw one, and they don't counter it for some weird reason. 7 threats just seem seriously underwhelming in this metagame.

Is 4 Duress, 4 Cabal Therapy, 4 Pernicous Deed, 4 Smother, and 3 Putrefy really all neccesary. The deck just comes off as far too reactive, with few relevant threats. At somepoint, you need to think about running more threats and less answers.

Sakura Tribe Elder just seems meh to me. Sure it's good in type 2, but this is legacy. 2cc for 1/1 that becomes a land later doesn't seem as strong a second turn play as say something like Hymn, or troll ascetic etc.

Why not run Werebear or something in it's slot, he generates mana too, and actually becomes a decent threat later on esp with all the removal you run.

I know that Rock has been using Ravenous Baloth since the day the card was printed, but couldnt a couple of Iwamori of Open Fist be tried. +1.+1 and trample to boot just seems too good to pass up.

Is it decisive that Wall of Blossoms is better than Carven Carytid. Carven Carytid discourages weenies attacking altogether, while Wall of Blossoms still lets your opponent swarm you with creatures so that all but one gets thru each turn. Plus Carven is even farther out of bolt range. So basically Carven Carytid can hold back an army, while Blossom address just one threat. If you ran Carven instead, you could easily replace some of your removal for some relevant threats.

Seriously, I would consider something like...

I upped the land count to support the higher number of threats.

4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Forests
2 Swamps
2 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Carven Carytid
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Werebear
3 Ravenous Baloth
3 Iwamori of Open Fist
3 Eternal Witness
---------------------
3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Smother
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Putrefy

4 Engineered Plague
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Life from the Loam
1 Eternal Witness

That's just a rough build, not meant to be a great list or anything, but just a starting point, to increase your threat base and make the deck faster and less reactive while still retaining it's ability to deal with a weenie swarm (carven carytid)

throst54
03-05-2006, 05:22 AM
well, if you arent drawing in threats you're drawing control, which should(hopefully) more than bide you time until you find your aggro.

The problem with werebear in this deck that he isnt going to get big until after turn 4-5 (assuming u use a fetchland each turn and use up most of your removal/discard) which just makes him an overpriced llanowar elf. Which could be changed if the rest of the deck changes a bit, but if he doesnt become a threat till later game it would almost be better to run a 3-4cc threat, tribe elder is good because it dodges deed and chump blocks very well.

The only real reason i'd shun away from being more aggro oriented than control, is because you arent going to be able to outrace goblins, its the control that rock runs that enable it to have a good match against them.

I'm going to test out the Carven Carytid though, i'd like to see how much it improves matchups against weenies, or if it accomplishes the same thing as wall of blossoms- that is stall for a deed.

One of the biggest losses to The Rock when extended rotated, was Vampiric Tutor, which let it run more aggro and its answers/control as silver bullets/toolbox... Is there a viable way to do this in legacy?
is transmuting dimir machinations or sacing creatures to diabolic intent just too clunky?

Lego
03-05-2006, 05:38 AM
Seriously, the deck only plays 7 relevant threats.

First of all, it's a combo deck. I've played decks that play 4 or less relevant threats. As long as you lock down the game and protect your threats, that's not a big deal.

Second, if that's a problem for you, play my list. It plays Specter, Troll, and Confidant as relevant beats, and Llanowar Elves and Birds both become relevant the moment they are equipped with a SoFI. I've never had a problem with my win conditions.


Just for reference:
Agnostic- Noun, a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
Adjective, of or relating to agnostics or agnosticism.

Anarky87
03-05-2006, 02:47 PM
Seriously, the deck only plays 7 relevant threats. What happens in games wher you don't even draw one, beat down with 1/1 elder. Plus, almost every deck is running countermagic, Swords, removal, burn etc, keeping threats in play is a very hard task. You can really only hope to keep Troll Ascetic in play, assuming you draw one, and they don't counter it for some weird reason. 7 threats just seem seriously underwhelming in this metagame.

Seriously, the deck doesn't need anymore threats. 4 Trolls and 3 Baloths are more than enough to end games. This isn't an aggro deck trying to out creature your opponent. It is a Control deck, with a creature finish. Nothing more I can really say about that. And...I've yet to ever play a game where I don't draw AT LEAST ONE of my threats over the course of THE ENTIRE GAME. And yes, most decks are running removal, so let's look at our creatures:

"Troll Ascetic can't be targetted by spells or abilities your opponents control. 1G: Regenerate Troll Ascetic."

Hmm, that seems to flip off about every removal spell in the game, being that it can't be hit by Swords, Bolts, Smothers, Vindicates, Bounce, etc. Troll laughs at targetted removal, end of story.

"Sacrifice a beast: Gain 4 life."

A hefty 4/4 body for four that, in its own way, dodges removal and gives you life in the process. Not to mention being a pain in the ass to be staring down after Deed has just wiped your board clean. The current threats are relevant and justified.

If they're countering Troll, ok, I'll just play Baloth and swing. Ok, they're countering both Troll and Baloth (requiring 7 counters) that's fine, I'll sit on Deed and wait your win condition out. Ok, they're countering Troll, Baloth, and Deed (requiring 11 counters), I'll just use the still 7 other removal spells I have. Ok, they're countering, Troll, Baloth, Deed, and all my removal spells (requiring 18 counters), sure, I'll use my discard to strip you of all your relevant threats and spells, but you countered all those, eh? (requiring 26 counters) Then I'll play Stronghold/Witness (Majestyk's list runs 3 MD Witnesses) and recur all my threats...Now if there is some deck that can manage to counter everything I could possibly do...then that deck deserves to be Tier 1. I have played through counters, it was called Threshold, and I literally have no problem with that deck 98% of the time (2% describing mana screw/flood on my part, absolutely broken hands on their part).


Is 4 Duress, 4 Cabal Therapy, 4 Pernicous Deed, 4 Smother, and 3 Putrefy really all neccesary. The deck just comes off as far too reactive, with few relevant threats. At somepoint, you need to think about running more threats and less answers.

Sakura Tribe Elder just seems meh to me. Sure it's good in type 2, but this is legacy. 2cc for 1/1 that becomes a land later doesn't seem as strong a second turn play as say something like Hymn, or troll ascetic etc.

Maybe not 4 Duress, and I do sometimes alternate between 3-4, but 4 Therapy is a must. It you strike right with it, you can remove all game swinging cards from your opponents hand, and you can flashback to hit everything else, it's needed, Duress hits some of the same things, but not as much as Therapy, being why it could be 3 in the current meta. Duress also sets up for powerful Therapies. Yes, 4 Pernicious Deed is needed if you're going to compete, it's not just a creature eliminator, it also wipes out artifacts and enchantments, so it's pulling triple duty, it's needed. Smother is amazing right now, in that, almost every threat you need to deal with in the current meta is taken care of by Smother. Putrey, in a nutshell, cleans up everything Smother doesn't.

I've talked about this before, Tribe-Elder pulls alot of other things besides getting land, so I'm not going to go into great detail again. He's versatile enough to be used in Legacy and T2. And even if I have a turn 2 Troll in my hand, I rarely play it that way, I want to have regeneration mana open so I don't walk into some untargetted removal and get screwed. And I don't pull that many turn 2 Trolls, LAM's deck does because it's designed to power out fast threats, but this is a control deck, let's keep this thought in mind at all times.


Why not run Werebear or something in it's slot, he generates mana too, and actually becomes a decent threat later on esp with all the removal you run.

I know that Rock has been using Ravenous Baloth since the day the card was printed, but couldnt a couple of Iwamori of Open Fist be tried. +1.+1 and trample to boot just seems too good to pass up.

Werebear doesn't belong in this deck, I don't want a creature that becomes a threat...maybe later in the game. I want to play a creature and have an affect right now. As I stated before, WB dies to any worthwhile Deed activation, so you're losing one of your own threats to clear the board, you shouldn't be playing the deck that way and if you are that's what your problem is. Baloth will be a mainstay in the Rock until something like it that's better is printed, Open Fist is not, if any card in this deck should be left in T2, Open Fist is it, Majestyk has aready discussed that card earlier, so go read it if you still think that way.


Is it decisive that Wall of Blossoms is better than Carven Carytid. Carven Carytid discourages weenies attacking altogether, while Wall of Blossoms still lets your opponent swarm you with creatures so that all but one gets thru each turn. Plus Carven is even farther out of bolt range. So basically Carven Carytid can hold back an army, while Blossom address just one threat. If you ran Carven instead, you could easily replace some of your removal for some relevant threats.

I actually played Carven for awhile for the same reasons you listed, but then I wanted more things castable sooner, so I went with WoB. Wall comes down faster than Carven, and that can make a difference. Sure you can bird it out, but then you're playing it at the same speed you would have WoB, and that's the only thing you can play that turn, whereas you can still cast a Duress/Therapy if you're playing the Wall. Wall just stops alot of relevant things faster than Carven. While it may discourage weenie attacks, Wall has done the same thing in many of my cases. The opponent will look at his creature, look and see I have WoB, and then say, "Go." I did play Carven before, but I've switched back to WoB and it has been working beatifully.

In summation, I think the deck is ticking along quite nicely. For awhile, I felt that I wasn't drawing enough threats, so I cut 1 Tribe Elder for 1 Troll, and I've yet to have that problem again. What needs to be kept in mind is that this is a Control deck (possibly Aggro Control, I don't know how that hierarchy breaks down anymore, I know that I play it as a Control.), and therefore, has Control elements. This isn't trying to out-aggro the best aggro deck out there (Gobs), it simply uses its powerful tools in Pernicious Deed and Duress+Therapy to control the game and uses green's amazing, cheap creatures to bury the coffin. Chocking it full of fatty creatures with bad drawbacks is not going to solve anything.

So far this deck has broken down into 3 types: My tight, dedicated MD version with a strong SB, Majestyk's Wish version with a powerful SB of bullet answers for most needed situations, and LAM's fast aggro version, with massive acceleration to throw down fast threats and Duress/Therapy to push them through. Those are the lists we're trying to consolidate, so we work with that in mind and we go from what we've seen in tournament play. I might be playing today in a tournament, so if I do, I'll be back here with details.

kicks_422
03-05-2006, 10:56 PM
Is Withered Wretch a good SB option?... I run a list pretty similar to Anarky's, but my SB is:

4 E. Plague - Goblins, mostly... But also for random tribal decks...
4 Withered Wretch - for anything that uses the graveyard...
1 Ravenous Baloth - side in against burn...
4 Hymn to Tourach - for control matchups (replacing Smother)
2 Naturalize - random decks with enchantments...

Is Diabolic Edict a needed card in the SB?... Reanimator isn't really a viable option now... And I'd rather eat their monsters in the grave than see them in play... Yeah, they might get it out turn 1-2, and that's the cases where Edict would be better... but how often does that happen?...

Anarky87
03-05-2006, 11:19 PM
Is Withered Wretch a good SB option?... I run a list pretty similar to Anarky's, but my SB is:

4 E. Plague - Goblins, mostly... But also for random tribal decks...
4 Withered Wretch - for anything that uses the graveyard...
1 Ravenous Baloth - side in against burn...
4 Hymn to Tourach - for control matchups (replacing Smother)
2 Naturalize - random decks with enchantments...

Is Diabolic Edict a needed card in the SB?... Reanimator isn't really a viable option now... And I'd rather eat their monsters in the grave than see them in play... Yeah, they might get it out turn 1-2, and that's the cases where Edict would be better... but how often does that happen?...

Majestyk runs Withered Wretch in his SB as a Wish target, I don't run it due to the fact that nobody runs a deck abusing the graveyard. Well, besides Threshold, but even then, you don't really need GY hate as you can handle their creatures pretty handily, and everyone in my meta has hated Thresh and Goblins out.

The Edict in my SB isn't for Reanimator, though if it ever comes along, I'll be ready. I put it in there because I sometimes run into decks that are also running Trolls, and I can't hit them with Smother/Putrefy and Deeds just kind of ties their Troll up for a turn, I side Smother's out for Edicts. They also help against other untargettable, random things I may come across. My SB is specifically for my meta, so I wouldn't suggest just running it as is. Always make adjustments that will help you the most. If you want to, feel free to post your list.

Majestyk1136
03-06-2006, 12:06 AM
Trying to disable threshold against that damn Mystic Enforcer is a big deal for me. My friends have identified that card as my achilles heel and thus play 3-4 of it. I typically only bring in 2 of the 3 anyways and keep the 3-wish configuration.

throst54
03-06-2006, 02:42 AM
against enforcers have you considered using arashi/silklash spider as wish targets? (or even duplicant)

was wondering as well if anyone has tried using Grave-Shell Scarab or Stampeding Serow for beatdown?

Majestyk1136
03-06-2006, 12:37 PM
It would take 8 mana to Channel an Arashi to kill a thresh Enforcer. That's pretty steep, especially if you have to Wish for the answer first. Spider would block him, but it seems a little more efficient to just chump him or crush him with a Deed. At least if you are going for Wretches to disable Threshold you're helping yourself all around by making all of their threats less good. For approximately the same amount of mana as Channelling Arashi, Playing a Spider or whatever you want to do you can just make the bugger not fly and either repeatedly block him until a Baloth comes up or straight up kill him with a Troll.

BlindMage
04-20-2006, 10:01 PM
Has anyone tested this against Wombat/Rifter? I don't see mention of it in the thread. Did I just miss it somewhere?

Anarky87
04-20-2006, 10:31 PM
Has anyone tested this against Wombat/Rifter? I don't see mention of it in the thread. Did I just miss it somewhere?

The only testing I've done is against Threshold, Goblins, Belcher, Enchantress, Angel Stompy, and Solidarity. So far I've had very positive matchups in the Thresh, and Gobs games. I've only played against Solidarity once, and I went 2-1 against it. As for Belcher, again, I've only played against it once, and I lost 1-2, if I would have hit my 2nd black source, the game would have been mine. Enchantress is kinda unfavorable, but Deed was a big help. You could board for it if you expect it.

As for Rifter/Wombat, I'm not sure. I haven't had any experience with them. My friend was going to put it together and play it against me one tournament, but he didn't get the pieces, and I haven't made it back since. If you'd like to help me out in that department or anyone else, I would appreciate it very much.

I haven't had alot of time to test much else, with college and all. And that's all the decks we have in our area. I would appreciate anyone else doing some testing on their own, and coming back with their results. The deck is still pretty strong in my opinion, and can go through those shaky first couple rounds against randomness based on how much punch it packs.

EDIT: I went ahead and played a match against Rifter (so this is nothing official, but SB's were included). I won 2-1 against it, but we played the third game twice, because he got land screwed after a Waste on his Plateau in Game 3. Game 3 was just me massively recurring Duress and Hymn with Witnesses and Stronghold. When I felt he was crippled enough, I killed him with Troll and Baloth. I intend to test this more as Rifter I believe has the advantage here. And my partner was also pretty tired, so I don't know how that played into it.

Alex_Van_R
04-25-2006, 01:01 PM
Hi all,

this is my first post here.

I'm playing the rock for about two years now. I started playing it in extended, but because I overslept most of the time, I wasn't able to play it in that format. I only got the chance to test it online.
Legacy, that's the other part, is where I've been able to play the Rock for a while now. My first legacytournament (with the metagame of goblins and landstill) was like... WOW. Without any further preparation, without knowing anything about the metagame (Golbins and Landstill... "What the hell is landstill?"), I was able to reach a 9th (!!!) place at the tournament.
Later on, I started testing more cards which could fit in the deck, and now I finally found the deck that looks perfect for my metagame. Over here (Belgium, the land of beer), the metagame is mostly threshold. Affinity is getting popular over here too. Goblins isn't seeing any play over here, since Threshold is 'dominating'.

What are the good points of the deck:
* It beats any form of weenie/aggro. Threshold players keep telling that my deck sucks, and that it will never reach the top. Still, I won about 70% of the matches against threshold. (30% because I didn't draw Pernicious Deed at the right time.)
* It beats control. Your creatures keep comming back from the grave, and control just can't keep up those recurring threats.
* It beats most forms of combo, because of cards like cabal therapy and other cards. (read on to see 'the Others') The only deck I seem to have trouble with, is High Tide.

What are the bad points of the deck:
* Hand disruption like Hymn to Tourach and (if it's played soon) Hypnotic Specter are very hard to deal with, because you have to discard at random, which means you're likely to run in a situation without any land in your hand.
* Land destruction hurts too, because of the high costed finishers in your deck.


Lucky as I am, Pikula decks aren't played over here, or at least not much. If it would be, I would play Life From the Loam.
Because of the dominating thresholddecks, this list is adjusted to the deck.

Maindeck:
4x Bayou
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Bloodstained Mire
4x Swamp
8x Forest
1x Dust Bowl (I know this sounds strange, and I will probably move this to the sideboard.)

4x Birds of Paradise
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
4x Wall of Blossoms
3x Withered Wretch
3x Eternal Witness
2x Troll Ascetic (Thé best creature in the deck...)
3x Ravenous Baloth

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Living Wish (Because of a lack of good tutors in legacy.)
3x Putrefy
2x Haunting Echoes (Mostly against Threshold and graveyard-based decks, but because of Cabal Therapy, it works fine against combo as well.)
4x Pernicious Deed (BOOM!)

Sideboard:
1x Ravenous Baloth
1x Eternal Witness
1x Withered Wretch
1x Troll Ascetic
1x Arashi, the Sky Asunder (Mostly against Mystic Enforcer, but I haven't been able to use it, simply because I have already won or because the Enforcer trampled me...)
1x Kagemaro, First to Suffer (Kagemaro >>> Bane of the Living, since Bane is too slow. Most of the time, Kagemaro is 3/3 or 2/2.)
1x Bone Shredder
1x Genesis (Not in the main, because you won't ever find it, or at least not much. It's a good wishtarget against Pikuladecks.)
1x Viridian Zealot
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All (Nobody expects it, and since Living Wish isn't going to be countered most of the times, because they counter the wished card, you will have uncountered Haunting Echoes and Putrefy and aventually Living Wish. I'm very satisfied about this card.)
3x Cranial Extraction. (Mostly against combo. It lets me win against Solidarity.)
2x Naturalize


Cards I've tested and disapproved:
* Living Death: It looks good on paper, but most of the times, I wasn't able to cast it, because my opponent still had creatures in the grave, which I couldn't remove (in time). I'm still trying it. It's a decent Wrath of God against aggro decks and a recurring overrun against aggro.
* Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni: This is a rather tricky card. I used this card in extended against psychatog. I attacked with Birds of Paradise, and I used nunjitsu for an unblocked Ink-Eyes and a free creature. In this format, swords to plowshares is heavily played, so it's more likely a waste of a slot.
* Stampeding Serow: I used to take back Eternal Witness, which was nice, but if you can't return a green creature, you have a useless creature.
* Recurring Nightmare: This card is insane. I used to play it, but I felt like you didn't need it to win. I only played one copy of it, and since you don't have a decent tutor in legacy, I simply cut the card.
* Dosan the Falling Leaf: I just cut it, because it's easily removed or destroyed.
* Leyline of Lifeforce: It actually is a good card, but it's only good against control, I would have to play it 4 times and I would have to mulligan to make it work optimally.

Alex_Van_R
04-25-2006, 01:11 PM
Cards that I didn't include in the deck:
* Duress: It's only good against control and combo, but it sucks against gro and control-gro (Threshold). I still have Cabal Therapy, which is way better if you know the metagame.
* Engineered Plague: Goblins isn't seeing any play over here, and I already win without it. Elf decks aren't a problem either.
* Treetop Village: I could play it, but it would most likely be a wishtarget.
* Diabolic Edict: Putrefy >>> Edict. Putrefy destroys creatures (except for Mystic Enforcer) and artifacts (like Pithing Needle). Putrefy is targetted removal, Edict isn't.


Comments on the decklist and grammar are always welcome!
Alex

Alex_Van_R
04-25-2006, 01:16 PM
Has anyone tested this against Wombat/Rifter? I don't see mention of it in the thread. Did I just miss it somewhere?

I tested against Rifter. If you have bad luck, you have a draw. Most of the time, you win.
The perfect play is NOT to play Pernicious Deed when Humility hits the table and when you don't have 7 mana (3 to cast it, 4 to activate). Most rifterdecks play maindeck Disenchant.
Always keep a Pernicious Deed in hand, because of the Decree-tokens. Putrefy/Withered Wretch deals with Eternal Dragon.

Anarky87
04-26-2006, 01:13 AM
Well I'm glad to see this deck making a splash in other places, besides my own area. I know MajestyK plays the Living Wish version of Rock, and I play the version sans the Wish, so he'll probably be able to give you some feedback on that.

Are you sure Duress sucks against Gro? I'd have to say in my experience that it has performed exceptionally well. Since Gro is predominately cantrips and counterspells, it almost always hits something, not to mention sets up killer Therapies. Therapy is one of the most amazing discarders around and it definitely rewards the person who knows his meta, and sometimes Duress + Therapy provides enough of a game swing that it's extremely hard to come back from. Also to the fact that Therapy flashes back, so that's a chance to hit 3-5 cards in combination with Duress. It obviously is less effective against aggro, but really the only deck I play against where it's absolutely dead is Goblins. Most of the time the aggro decks have some spells I can zap.

I run Plague in my board, because there's always at least one Goblin deck that pops up at a tournament. I generally have a great game against Goblins, but I love making the game severely lopsided postboard. Not to mention siding it in against Rifter naming Soldier. Edict is in my board because there are times when I also hit other untargettable creatures or pro-black crap that I can't deal with otherwise. One tournament I played against another deck also packing Trolls and Rancors. Needless to say, I couldn't get rid of them once they came down, therefore the Edicts came in. And they never hurt against Enforcer, yet I haven't played against a version of Gro in a long time that has played Enforcer. Either way, that's a good matchup regardless.

If Rifter ever became a problem I would probably put some kind of GY hate in my board. Most of the time I win, as the recursion and casting costs alot of mana for Dragon, and it gives them fits after they freshly cast it and I putrefy eot. Postboard, I usually don't worry that much about Humility when I have Plague down on Soldiers, because I usually have them in top deck mode, beating with Troll and Witness, because two 1/1's swinging a turn is still 2 damage.

Anyway, glad to see other people having success with the deck. I would encourage more players to try it out for themselves.

Alex_Van_R
04-26-2006, 07:45 AM
Diabolic Edict CAN work against mystic enforcer, but first, you have to kill all the other creatures that player control. Most of the time, Pernicious Deed gets countered and Edict does nothing.
Troll could be a problem, but there's something that most people forget:
* Oppenent: Declare attack
* You: Sacrifice Pernicious Deed for 3 mana.
Troll Ascetic will have to regenerate, and gets tapped because of the regeneration shield. That's one way to deal with it.
Also, you have enough blockers (Wall of Blossoms, ...) to stop the troll, even though it's rancored.
My version can wish for Kagemaro to deal with trolls as well.
In the first turns, you can use Cabal Therapy to get rid of trolls. Whenever I see a turn one Taiga or Kird ape, I will always name Troll Ascetic or Rancor.

Humility loses to Cranial Extraction. I only have to play 3 Extraction in a game to win. (First, remove Humility. Second, remove Eternal Dragon. Third, remove Decree of Justice, since it's only lategame card.)
Also, Haunting Echoes works fine against Rifter as well.

Alex_Van_R
04-26-2006, 07:48 AM
About Duress: What would you take out of the deck to be replaced by Duress?

I used to play Engineered Plagues too (3-4 side) and I made a red splash for Goblin Pyromancer as a wishtarget. I'd rather play pyromancer over plague, simply because it's a one-slot in the sideboard and because you can wish for it.

Majestyk1136
04-26-2006, 12:02 PM
The first candidate for removal would seem to be Haunting Echoes. That is such a clunky card to begin with that I would rather have the more versatile Duress in my deck. The fact that Echoes does nothing against Goblins should be pretty obvious. At least Duress buys you information against them if not the ability to peel a Bolt or a Vial out of the Gobbo's hand. I only play 3 Duress anyways. You're practically playing my version if you just cut the Echoes and 1 Baloth and move it to the side. The other thing I do is play Wasteland with Life from the Loam to punish Gro decks for playing so few basics.

Other comments: You have Wretch in the MD. Is GY hate a serious issue in your meta? It's in my sideboard as a wish target to deal with the occasional Survival player that crops up and smoke opposing GY strategies. But he's hard to cast and pretty fragile otherwise, dying to pretty much everything. Why not play more Trolls over him?

Caleb
04-26-2006, 12:05 PM
* Diabolic Edict: Putrefy >>> Edict. Putrefy destroys creatures (except for Mystic Enforcer) and artifacts (like Pithing Needle). Putrefy is targetted removal, Edict isn't.

Putrefy also misses Argothian Enchantress and Nimble Mongoose. Just saying.

Alex_Van_R
04-26-2006, 01:03 PM
Since Threshold is the most played deck over here, MD Wretch is really necessary. It isn't hard to play. I have Birds of Paradise, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Bayou, (Bloodstained Mire) to get the mana I need to cast Wretch. Casting Wretch has never been a problem. Most of the times, you don't want to cast it against Threshold, unless you have mana to play around Daze. You don't have to play Wretch on turn 2.
Most Threshold decks play either Meddling Mage or Pithing Needle, or just both. They fear the Wretch so much, so they want to counter/mage/needle it. If they do that, I can cast other spells, like Pernicious Deed for example. Threshold decks have to look out for following threats: Withered Wretch, Pernicious Deed, Putrefy and Living Wish. They won't ever be able to play Mage, Needle or any counter on all of these cards. It's just too much for them. Sometimes, they even have to name Dust Bowl!
Also, only having access to Wretch by wishing for it, seems too less for me.
Haunting Echoes can work against aggro decks as well, after Pernicious Deed for example. Most of the time, I board them out in game 2, unless it's threshold or survival, ...
Still, I'm pretty satisfied about this card. I mean, nobody expects it! It has won me several games against Threshold, even when Mystic Enforcer already hit the table.
A few months ago, I played on a tournament with Edict instead of Putrefy. I reasoned that Threshold only had 12 creatures, and Mystic Enforcer was the creature I feared the most. I was never able to cast Edict to get rid of Mystic Enforcer. Threshold decks aren't dangerous as long as they don't have threshold yet. Baloth/Troll can block a 3/3 enforcer, 1/1 bears and 1/1 nimbles. To deal with Enchantress and Nimble, I still have Pernicious Deed.
Another way to deal with Meddling Mage, Mystic Enforcer and Swords to Plowshares, is to use Dust Bowl on Tundra and playing Haunting Echoes. If it works, it's always fun to see my opponent moaning.
What I've already seen a lot of times now, is that most people which are playing MD needle, name Survival of the Fittest once they see Bayou.

Anarky87
04-26-2006, 04:13 PM
I've honestly had the same trouble with Wretch, he just dies too much. Also being that there's not very many decks abusing the GY (save for Survival and the recursion from Rifter), unless you are seeing a meta where the GY is a dominant concept, I can't see running him MD. I would board him like MajestyK said and keep him as a Wish target.

I'd say a majority of the time, I do absolutely no SB'ing against Thresh. I've just seen no reason to as of yet. They usually go through the early and mid game, kinda picking at me, while I force things through (This being where Duress is a must and I too only play 3). I usually get to around 7-10 life and that's where they just completely die out. I usually land a Deed, either by forcing it through, or by constant recursion, then I blow everything to hell, turn the tides back, and win. The only time I really have trouble is if they go like turbo threshold, double Mongoose with counterspell back up for days in the early game. Other than that, Thresh doesn't bother me at all.

And yes, I know about the Deed activation against Troll, but that too is just a one time thing. Unless you deal with it next turn, it's coming right back at your head again. Therapy was my best bet, and I did hit a a Troll a few times, but then he would occassionally top deck another, throw it down with a Rancor, and I'd be in hot water. Yeah WoB is great, against an non-Rancored Troll. Otherwise you take 1 and lose the blocker. And Edict is good for other things as well.

I'd rather avoid adding a third color, when I can play an extreme Goblin hoser in my own colors. My game against Goblins game 1 isn't bad, but it gets even better Game 2, and 3 if 1 didn't go so hot. And Wasteland is pretty awesome I hear, I would also try fitting a set of those in. Like MajestK pointed out, the synergy between Wasteland and LftL is amazing. I've even Witnessed a Wasteland back one time to seal the deal. It's just an amazing card to have.

Rood
04-28-2006, 03:59 PM
What would you guys say is the Rock's worse matchup to play against. It seems to like it rolls over to combo if your board isn't prepped for it.

Anarky87
04-28-2006, 04:50 PM
What would you guys say is the Rock's worse matchup to play against. It seems to like it rolls over to combo if your board isn't prepped for it.

That's the only thing I really don't have a good game against. It's not completely lost, you do have some outs against them, just not many. MD you have a potential 11 Discard spells, then post board you have 15. It's still not that favorable though. Another deck I haven't tested thoroughly against is Deadguy. I played against it once in a tournament in the finals and beat him 2-1. It all depended on whether he got the right mix of discard and and LD, if he did, he usually had the upper hand, if not, I won. So that match should probably be tested more, and I pack LftL in my SB in case I ever play against it again.

Alex_Van_R
04-28-2006, 05:20 PM
Most combodecks can be defeated by the Rock. Survival, Gamekeeper, ...
Decks like Aluren and Solidarity are mostly bad matchups. I'm playing Cranial Extraction in the sideboard, which can be awesome if you can cast it. Duress + Cabal Therapy + Cranial Extraction are a lot of things against combo in your favor.

Lego
04-29-2006, 07:02 PM
My Rock deck has never had a problem with Combo. I haven't tested it against Aluren, which seems like it might be a lot more difficult, but a strong clock + Duress/Cabal Therapy and possibly Eternal Witness/Mesmeric Fiend will usually end the game pretty quickly (against Combo or Control, and then you've got Jitte and SoFI plus Troll Ascetic blockage for the aggro, don't know why this thing isn't played more often)

Alex_Van_R
04-30-2006, 07:51 PM
I already tested a lot against Aluren. Most of the time, it was the version with Living Wish and Elvish Spirit Guide. If you don't have a hand with Duress or Cabal Therapy in game 1, you'd better mulligan to a hand with therapy or just scoop. Game 2 I have Extraction, but I can only play it on turn three. If it hits, it's gg for me.
The other version is the one Pierre Canali played at GP Lille. It uses Force of Will, Eladamri's Vineyard and no Wishes. That version sucks and is easily defeated.
When you don't have Extraction, Duress or Therapy but you do have Pernicious Deed or Naturalize, you can still win. When Alluren hits the table and they play a creature, simply destroy Alluren in response. This only works when it's the first creature they play with Alluren. If there's already a Raven Familiar on the table (already resolved) and you destroy Alluren when they play another creature, they can still cast Cavern Harpy or Man-O-War to keep the engine going.
When you're playing Engineered Plague in the sideboard, naming beast (Cavern Harpy) is also an autowin, since Harpy dies before he can activate his own ability again.
Also, Haunting Echoes has proven its worth in this deck. I blew Deed to destroy Alluren, I played Therapies to strip my opponent his hand and I casted Echoes. GG, since he didn't play Living Wish.
Normally, Alluren is a bad matchup for this deck.
It seems that Legacy has only three bad matchups for this deck:
Pikula, Alluren and High Tide.
Actually, we can beat them. We don't have a matchup that's very hard.
Shouldn't this thread be placed in the open legacy discussion?
I'm having a legacytournament on the 13th of may. I will write a report of it. Could you guys do some tournament testing too and write a report?


Alex

Anarky87
04-30-2006, 08:47 PM
I played this deck significantly about 2-3 months ago. Then the price of gas shot up, ultimately ending my ability to drive to my usual tournament location. But when I did play there, I was able to finish 2nd, 1st, and split for 1st. All of this was against actual tier decks, not just random crap. If I'm able to make it back or if another tournament happens closer to me, I'll play it again and write another report. I know the few pages before this I wrote perhaps 1-2, maybe 3 reports, but The Rock is a deck that I test all my other decks up against. If they don't make it there, I usually go back to the drawing board.

Alex_Van_R
05-13-2006, 02:48 PM
Finally, the tournament. After a long time of testing, there was finally a legacytournament again. Most legacytournaments were being held at Mol, but that wasn't enough. I asked the local store to run a legacytournament, since the format gained more popularity after the GP's in Lille and Philadelphia. The first time, there were only eight players, which was a bummer. This time, I made some more publicity for the tournament. Since I only had to ride a few minutes by bike, I could sleep long enough. Sleeping long enough meant that I might would be playing a bit better then usual.
Arriving at the location ‘TipTop Moens’ I immediatelly spotted a larger number of players. This time, there were sixteen, nice! The usual players were present: Tim Steurs, Tom Hens, a few pro players and some people I only knew because of trading in the past with them. Of course, Dendermonde had some people present too. Normally spoken, there should have been a Yu-Gi-Crap prerelease too, since we didn't expect that much players, but somehow we were able to cancel the prerelease. Evil, sadistic grin.
I'm playing the legacyformat for almost a year now, and I like it a lot. Next to sealed deck, it's probably the coolest format existing. My legacydeck is probably pretty famous amongst extendedplayers: The Rock. Not the aggroversion, but the controlversion. There are some people who keep saying the deck doesn't work in the format. They couldn’t be more wrong! I had some good results with the deck, and some bad ones as well, because of a lack of testing, playskills, sleep and an overdose of bad luck.
This is the deck as I played it at Dendermonde:
Maindeck:
8x Forest
5x Swamp
4x Bayou
4x Llanowar Wastes
1x Dust Bowl
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
4x Wall of Blossoms
3x Eternal Witness
2x Troll Ascetic
3x Ravenous Baloth
3x Duress
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Living Wish
3x Putrefy
4x Pernicious Deed
2x Haunting Echoes
Sideboard:
1x Wasteland
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1x Withered Wretch
1x Eternal Witness
1x Viridian Shaman
1x Troll Ascetic
1x Bone Shredder
1x Ravenous Baloth
1x Genesis
1x Kagemaro, First to Suffer
2x Naturalize
2x Cranial Extraction
1x Living Death
I played Llanowar Wastes, since I couldn't find Wooded Foothills or Bloodstained Mire on time. The one maindeck Dust Bowl seems strange, but you don't need it that much. Wishing for it is a waste of a spell, since you need the mana to activate it. Wasteland solves this just fine.
I decided to play Duress, since I expected some random decks. Duress used to be Withered Wretch, used against the Threshold matchup, but it's easily removed. Duress hits something most of the time and it has great sinergy with Cabal Therapy.
Haunting Echoes is AWESOME! I decided to play it instead of Withered Wretch. It's one of the cards people don't like when it's pointed at their face. Think of the number of nonbasic lands you can remove after using Dust Bowl or Wasteland!
The Boseiju in the sideboard was mainly meant against Threshold and other counter/control. It makes Putrefy, Wish and Echoes uncounterable. I actually tested it. There wasn’t a single thresholddeck or other controldeck that expected the land. An uncounterable Echoes sealed the deal against those thresholddecks I tested against.
If I had Viridian Zealot, I could have used it. I didn't find it on time, so I played Viridian Shaman, which is a good replacement. When Dissension becomes legal, I will try Indrik Stomphowler, since it is BIG, FAT and better than Zealot. It can help you to get rid of that Chalice of the Void with three counters on it. Don’t forget it’s a beast, so you can sacrifice it to Ravenous Baloth.
Cranial Extraction was meant against combodecks. Very nice card. It has always been like that. Cranial looks slow, but you can play it on turn three with the help of some mana acceleration. I also play Duress and Cabal Therapy as a run-up against combodecks, which can allow me to play Cranial Extraction before they combo off.
Living Death was just put into the deck to test it. I never used it, I will never use it again. I'm going to play the third Extraction again.
Sixteen players means four rounds.
Round 1: Dimitri, playing Sneak Attack
Dimitri is one of the local players. I've already played a lot against him, mostly casual games. He played Sneak Attack today. We tested a bit and I gave him some tips before the tournament about the metagame etc.
Game 1:
I won the dice roll and played a first turn Cabal Therapy, naming Sneak Attack. He managed to get another Sneak Attack in play. A Symbiotic Wurm slapped pretty hard in my face. At the end of his turn, he got a boatload of tokens. I didn't have enough creatures or a Pernicious Deed, meaning I lost this game.
Side in: 2x Naturalize, 2x Cranial Extraction
Side out: 4x Wall of Blossoms
Game 2:
He got a Sneak Attack on the table, and used it for a Dragon Tyrant. My life total went down very quick. I played Naturalize on the Sneak and the next turn I played Cranial Extraction naming Sneak Attack. I hoped on drawing another Extraction or at least an Eternal Witness. Praise God! I drew a Witness, meaning I could play Extraction naming Through the Breach on my next turn. BUMMER. He drew Through the Breach and played one of his creatures.
Well done, Dimitri!
0-1-0
We played another quick game for fun. Dimitri gets a turn 2 Sneak Attack with Dragon Tyrant! He even pumped it a few times! I had to block with Birds of Paradise. My life total was 1 after turn 2. Of course, I lost this one as well.
Round 2: Nicolas, playing monoblack weenie stuff
Nicolas was one of the locals too. He was one of the few people at this tournament with an original, home made deck. Nicolas was playing a monoblack deck with too many one offs, and he played slow cards, thus crap, like Greater Harvester and Gleancrawler.
Game 1:
He played some creatures. I played Cabal Therapy. Then I played Witness, taking back Therapy, playing it again and using flashback to let him discard his hand except for two cards. I blew Pernicious Deed, destroying all of his creatures and I finished the game with Troll Ascetic and Ravenous Baloth. I think I even played Haunting Echoes in this game, removing most of his good cards.
Side in: 2x Naturalize. Against random decks, you never know what unknown card he might be playing.
Side out: 2x Duress
Game 2:
He played some stupid creatures. I played a quick Troll Ascetic after wishing for it. I wished again for Eternal Witness, taking back Pernicious Deed, blowing it up again, and so on. I eventually got another Wish, this time going for Ravenous Baloth. This one's mine.
1-1-0
I gave him some deckbuilding tips. He should be earning like a minister so he could buy all these very expensive cards: playing Hymn to Tourach, Hypnotic Specter, Cursed Scroll and Wasteland. A monoblack Pikuladeck, if you like it that way. Too bad he didn’t had the money to buy those cards.

Round 3: Patrick, playing monored burn/sligh/wacky creatures/wacky spells
Patrick told me that he built the deck in five minutes, since he didn't have much time. His deck wasn't optimal either. He played such interesting creatures as Suq'Ata Lancer and Viashino Sandstalker. He also played Shock and Kindle. We all know there are better cards than that. However, if you made your deck in five minutes...
Game 1:
He gets a turn three Lancer, but I get a turn three Troll Ascetic. Viashino Stalker hit the table, but I blocked it and it died. I saw Patrick reading the stalker again, he certainly knew little of his own deck. Eventually, I get Eternal Witness, Pernicious Deed and Baloth. I won this one easilly. It was virtually a bye.
Side in: 2x Naturalize, for the same reason as in round two against Nicolas
Side out: 2x Duress
Game 2:
He played some creatures, but so did I. He managed to get me to four life, but I had double Baloth, double Troll and Eternal Witness holding the front.
2-1-0
After this game, I had a conversation with the MCM guys. Then some Yu-Gi-Crap player showed up, asking the shopkeeper why there was no prerelease. Evil, sadistic grin: part two. We heard some strange sound, and it came from the Yu-gi-crapper. I wanted to know what the crapper was doing, but I had to stand up and make a wide movement to the right around the surprisingly big mass of the kid, which blocked the view of a PSP with a roaring racing game.

Round 4: Cedric, playing monobrown Stax
I knew this guy from Destelbergen. He was the only player with a metagamedeck I played against today.
Game 1:
He knew I was playing the Rock and played a turn one Pithing Needle, naming Pernicious Deed. Then Tangle Wire hit play. So far, that hasn't been a problem. I managed to destroy the Needle with Putrefy, and after that I got Pernicious Deed to blow the rest. He played Ensnaring Bridge, making my Baloths and Trolls look like walls. I didn't draw another Putrefy or Deed, and he finally manages a Chalice of the Void with three counters. That was key play and I was left with no option but to scoop.
Side in: 2x Naturalize, 2x Cranial Extraction
Side out: 3x Wall of Blossoms and something else
Game 2:
Again, he started with a turn one Needle, naming Deed. I decided not to play Putrefy until it was needed. He got some Powder Kegs and other stuff into play. I played several very succesful Cabal Therapies, following them up with a Haunting Echoes. Most of his cards were gone, including Smokestack. I managed to play around his Sun Droplet with Ravenous Baloth and Sakura-Tribe Elder. Since he had only one droplet, he wouldn’t gain that much life. I used Dust Bowl on most of his lands to ensure he wouldn't play anything dangerous. I won this one.
Game 3:
The game starts well with Cranial Extraction naming Smokestack. He gets a lot of artifacts in play: 4x Sun Droplet, 2x Powder Keg, 2x Trinisphere, Karn, Silver Golem, Chalice of the Void with one counter on it and Chalic of the void with 3 counters on it. I had a lot of cards like Pernicious Deed and Viridian Shaman in my hand, so those cards were a bunch of crap at that moment. He played Blinkmoth Nexus, beating me down to 15. Then I played Living Wish, getting Wasteland and destroying the Nexus. Haunting Echoes, I like it. He only had Karn as a win condition. He was hoping on another Chalice, but I finally managed to play Naturalize on the Chalice with three counters. In the same turn, I played Pernicious Deed, but I wanted to wait until the end of his turn to blow it. He played Needle, but I blew Deed in response. All of his artifacts were now gone. My two Trolls were regenerated and bashed for lethal damage. Hopelijk de beurt erna want geregenerate trolls kunnen niet aanvallen. In alle geval, dat is hier niet duidelijk.
3-1
I think I had a nice result. I tested a lot against Thresholddecks, and there were a lot of them today, but I didn't play against a single one. The winner of the tournament received two dual lands. The rest received boosters. I had a good time and some good conversations. TipTop Moens, the place to be.
The decks at the tournament:
2x High Tide (somewhere at the last standings of the tournament)
1x Rock (5th place)
1x Sneak Attack
1x Dredge-A-Tog
1x Rifter
1x Sligh (2nd place)
At least four Thresholddecks
1x Berserk-Affinity
Xx Random decks (last standings)
Props:
Ÿ Hilde, for organising the tournament and getting the players some food.
Ÿ Magic Workstation: the cheapest and easiest way to test and play Magic.
Ÿ The good conversations.
Ÿ Those good trades I made that day.
Ÿ My result at the end of the tournament.
Ÿ Cranial Extraction and Pernicious Deed.
Slops:
Ÿ Not a single Thresholddeck to play against.

See you all at the next Legacy tournament!
Alexander Van Ransbeeck

Anarky87
05-17-2006, 12:32 PM
Congrats on the tourney, Alex. I'm also playing in a tournament tonight, it'll be my first real one in about 2-3 months (Thanks college..."Knowledge is power!" my ass...). So I hope to do well. I'm pretty sure my list is the same as earlier in the thread, but for reference:

4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Forests
3 Swamps
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mires
2 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Birds
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Trolls
3 Tribe-Elders
3 Baloths
3 Witness

4 Therapy
4 Smother
4 Deed
3 Duress
3 Putrefy

4 Plague
4 Hymn
4 Edict
2 Lftl
1 Duress

So we shall see how things turn out. If I can, I'll write up a report when I get back. And, depending on who shows up, I might change the SB around. The Edicts may become Crypts for instance, but I don't know. I hope to trounce and reclaim my position atop the rest for the almighty cash payout. Later.

Alex_Van_R
05-17-2006, 01:12 PM
Before the tournament, I decided to play Duress over Wretch, which seemed to be a good choice. Viewing the fact that there were 2 solidaritydecks, I was in the advantage if I came out against them.
Some facts I didn't say in the article:
There were 2 affinitydecks. They both ran Dark Confidant. One of them ran both Fling and Berserk. The other ran maindeck Cabal Therapy (which seemed like a good choice in my eyes) and instead of Fling or Berserk, it ran Sensei's Divining Top. It was a good way to draw some cards, but I wasn't very keen on it. However, it won the tournament, and once again it has been proved that threshold gets beaten by affinity. I think the Rock might will be a better deck in the next months, when affinity starts dominating.

Alex_Van_R
05-17-2006, 01:17 PM
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Forests
3 Swamps
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mires
2 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Birds
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Trolls
3 Tribe-Elders
3 Baloths
3 Witness

4 Therapy
4 Smother
4 Deed
3 Duress
3 Putrefy

4 Plague
4 Hymn
4 Edict
2 Lftl
1 Duress


Your decklist looks a lot like the aggroversion as it was being played in Extended (last season). Even though your deck is still playing most of the controlelements, you could consider playing 1 or 2 chrome moxes. You're playing 4 copies of most of the cards, so the imprint won't be a big cardloss.

Anarky87
05-17-2006, 04:30 PM
It does have a little more aggro-ish look to it, but I play it as nothing but control. As such, I'm not really trying to power into anything special, and the negative synergy of Mox and Deed is something I'd rather not play around. I just like having the MD pretty strong and then SB as my back up. I've tried the Living Wish version, and I just finally decided that I wanted the deck sans Wishes. I think both versions are equally powerful. LAM has the true aggro version that runs Chrome Mox to power out his fast beats and equipment, and, in that case, I think that's appropriate.

lillelassie
05-19-2006, 11:38 PM
I think the deck need to splash white for loxodon hierach and StP.. worship, wrath, mortify and vindicate are nice boardcards.. also I dont run trolls.. dunno why´I just think that 7-8 "life"-creatures are better.. furthermore I use carven caryatid over wall of roots.. since it actuallt stops people attacking and can block werebear all day long.. I use treetop village over wasteland, cause I dont really wanna waste my mana. At last I think that every deck should run 4 StE.. that card is just to powerful to ignore.. Volraths stronghold is VERY good in the deck.. but you certainly not want to start the game with 2 in hand.. so just run 1 :)

Alex_Van_R
05-20-2006, 07:35 AM
I think the deck need to splash white for loxodon hierach and StP.. worship, wrath, mortify and vindicate are nice boardcards.. also I dont run trolls.. dunno why´I just think that 7-8 "life"-creatures are better.. furthermore I use carven caryatid over wall of roots.. since it actuallt stops people attacking and can block werebear all day long.. I use treetop village over wasteland, cause I dont really wanna waste my mana. At last I think that every deck should run 4 StE.. that card is just to powerful to ignore.. Volraths stronghold is VERY good in the deck.. but you certainly not want to start the game with 2 in hand.. so just run 1 :)

I don't like the concept of 3-color-Rock. Your manabase is way more vunerable to landdestruction.
Loxodon Hierarch, Swords to Plowshares and Vindicate are nice, but you already have enough removal. Most people think Hierarch is better than Ravenous Baloth. Hierarch is only effective when you have GW to activate its ability. It makes Pernicious Deed cost GWX instead of just X. Baloth costs only 2GG, while Hierarch costs 2GW (actually it's 2GGWW). 6 mana to gain 4 life is a lot, too much, actually. Baloth can sacrifice to gain life at instant speed. Just because of the manabase, I'd rather play Baloth over the Hierarch, because of the wastelands/price of progress.
You don't need Wrath of God, since you already have Pernicious Deed. Worship isn't necessary either, because you already defeat all creature-baseddecks.
Why, for God's sake, why don't you play Troll Ascetic? It's one of the best creatures ever printed in the game. It has great synergy with Pernicious Deed and others. It's a bomb against controldecks.
Carven Caryatid sucks. It might block weenies, but it costs you one G mana more. Wall of Blossoms gets you a card as well, for G less. The creature you're blocking doens't have to die. Wall of Blossoms is a staller. It helps you while waiting for that Pernicious Deed. If you want an eternal blocker, Troll Ascetic is way better. Although it costs 1G to regenerate, that's not the biggest problem. (Oh and, Troll Ascetic >>> Hierarch. They almost do the same. Troll blocks Hierarch and survives, if you want to assemble them in that way.)
I'm not a big fan of Treetop Village, because of the Wastelands that can target it. I'm playing Wasteland, because it has some good synergy with other cards in my deck.
You're saying you like 7-8 life creatures? Does that mean you're running both Baloth and Hierarch? It would probably be something like this: 4 Hierarch, 3 Baloth. Those are 7 4-manacreatures. That's too much.
I do agree about the fact of running 2 stronghold main. You don't ever want to draw 2.
Maybe you could post a decklist, so we can discuss it?

lillelassie
05-21-2006, 12:14 AM
well irun 4 baloths and 3 hierachs.. I run this deck:

3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Eternal Witness
3 Putrefy
4 Ravenous Baloth
3 Carven Caryatid
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Loxodon Hierarch
2 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Plains
2 Savannah
3 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windswept Heath

sb
1 Disenchant
2 Mortify
2 Naturalize
3 Vindicate
3 Withered Wretch
2 Worship
2 Wrath of God


My list is an exact copy of a deck that that won a tournament at the morphling.de 22/4-06.. http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=397

Anarky87
05-21-2006, 03:03 AM
I've never really favored any of the splashes to the Rock. They never usually bring anything more useful to the table than what is already accesible in the Rock's colors. Where they bring StP and Hierarch, I have Smother and Baloth, both performing the same roles as their white counterparts. I used to play the Carven in my initial build, thinking the exact same way you do about it. Then I found out that it just wasn't fast enough. WoB comes down quicker (Without the aid of Birds), and crowds up the ground just the same as Carven. Alex already covered most of my points about Hierarch and Troll, so I'll not be redundant.

I also used the Village until it became a nuisance. Wasteland>>>Treetop Village. Not to mention Wasteland is just awesome against alot of the decks right now in the format. Wasteland + Eternal Witness = GG for Thresh. As for Stronghold, I've yet to ever have both show up in my opening and two allows me to know I'll see at least one every now and then, where one is just randomness. Wasteland is also very prevalent in my meta, so I don't mind holding one for when my opponent decides to nail the first with Wasteland. Because, at least for me, recurring Witness + Pernicious Deed + Stronghold is pretty much a soft lock that has to be dealt with for decks who win through the red zone.

Alex_Van_R
05-21-2006, 05:58 AM
well irun 4 baloths and 3 hierachs.. I run this deck:

3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Eternal Witness
3 Putrefy
4 Ravenous Baloth
3 Carven Caryatid
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Loxodon Hierarch
2 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Plains
2 Savannah
3 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windswept Heath

sb
1 Disenchant
2 Mortify
2 Naturalize
3 Vindicate
3 Withered Wretch
2 Worship
2 Wrath of God


My list is an exact copy of a deck that that won a tournament at the morphling.de 22/4-06.. http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=397

3 Putrefy, 3 Swords to Plowshares, 4 Pernicious Deed
2 Mortify, 3 Vindicate, 2 Wrath of God, 1 Disenchant, 2 Naturalize

It looks like extreme overkill to me. I'd keep the swords, putrefy and deed maindeck, but do you really need wrath of god? Also, playing vindicate-mortify-naturalize-disenchant is overkill against enchantments and artifacts.
I don't get why the deck runs worship. You already beat creaturebased decks. Hell, you even slap burn and sligh in the face. You have 4 Baloths and 3 Hierarchs.

lillelassie
05-21-2006, 12:31 PM
hierach is not instead of baloth.. its an additional life-creature.. yes I have a little overkil.. maybe i should replace some of it with extra hate like haunting echoes and the last 2 discard-cards..

troll is good, but i will much draw a baloth or hierach against gobbos

Anarky87
05-21-2006, 12:45 PM
hierach is not instead of baloth.. its an additional life-creature.. yes I have a little overkil.. maybe i should replace some of it with extra hate like haunting echoes and the last 2 discard-cards..

troll is good, but i will much draw a baloth or hierach against gobbos

I would definitely replace alot of it (Leaving Swords, Putrefy and Deeds as your creature control) and put in stuff that will help you more. I'd bring in the 4th Therapy, but not the 4th Duress, unless you're in a Control/Combo heavy area. I run 3 and board the 4th and that has worked fine, when they're dead against aggro for the most part.

I would take Troll over Baloth against Goblins, as it can't be incinerated like the Baloth, forcing me to sac it for life, while they swing on through. Troll sits there and laughs at their removal all day, picking off their guys one by one until he decides to go for the throat. Baloth is a nice compliment to the Troll, which is why he's a 3 of in my deck.

I would probably just run a couple Naturalizes in the board. You have more than enough ways to remove their enchantments/artifacts, including a board sweeper in Deed. If you really fear that stuff, Therapy and Duress for it, then Deed what actually hits play. But yeah, that deck just seems like overkill in alot of departments. I would make those appropriate changes and see how that runs for you.

Majestyk1136
05-22-2006, 12:22 PM
AGGG!! Degeneration of the thread! Back to some 3-color monstrosity?? Maybe for scrub-dominated metagames, but not for serious players.

I will admit however that I have been messing with a 3-color Rock deck in an attempt to generate a simply backbreaking endgame play against every other archetype you might run into, but the mana is just tough to get to work correctly, especially in the presence of opposing Wastelands.

You simply can't expect to get such a manabase to work. This is especially true with Goblins and Pikula running around out there doing what you're trying to do and doing it better.

I don't want to even post a list because I can't determine if it's either embarassing or broken. Also, it's not tuned and I need to work on it before I churn out a final product.

All that pointless rambling aside, the idea is to have a VERY consistent, VERY redundant deck that smashes Aggro and Aggro Control decks. The only real control decks (Rifter) are also a bye for you leaving just combo decks to be dealt with. Anything that deviates from this plan is, well, pretty suicidal.

BlindMage
05-22-2006, 01:55 PM
the idea is to have a VERY consistent, VERY redundant deck that smashes Aggro and Aggro Control decks.

QFT. Thus the name: "The Rock"

Anarky87
05-22-2006, 06:18 PM
I've never wanted to venture into a third color, as B/G handles anything that you could want. It performs the same functions as the White splash, but I can't understand why everyone is so determined to make Hierarch part of the deck when you have baloth.


My list is an exact copy of a deck that that won a tournament at the morphling.de 22/4-06.. http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=397

That's the only reason I commented. It wasn't as if he arrived at the list, he just copied from the other site (that's not meant to sound bad, btw). And if that's the route he wanted to take, I was just offering my advice. I've found Rifter to be kinda tricky to play around, as Humility can negate your Witness for Deed. My version of Rifter also plays Wing Shards MD which kinda sucks for Troll. But still, Duress and Therapy help alleviate that problem and EP from the SB (kinda abbreviation heavy in this post, lol) takes care of cycled Decree tokens. It's not really a hard match, just one that takes awhile and careful playing to win. That really only leaves combo for me in my area, Pikula has kinda dropped off and Goblins/Thresh is still kinda there.

Anarky87
05-25-2006, 12:18 AM
Played in a tournament tonight with The Rock and ended up 2nd. Could have been first, but I misplayed in the finals like a f*cking noob and blew it.

Round 1: Jordan with R/W aggro Equipment.

Game 1: I take his hand apart and nuke several of his creatures, before I handily win.
Game 2: See Game 1.

1-0

Round 2: Aaron with G/W Slivers.

Game 1: He plays a bunch of little slivers that I hold off with my walls until he powers through them with Giant Growth. He then 'Geddons twice, and I never get enough mana to activate my Deed.
Game 2: He keeps a bad hand and I just tear through him.
Game 3: See Game 2.

2-0

Round 3: Nate with G/W Enchantment Beats.

Game 1: He plays a Wild Growth turn one, turn two Verduran Enchantress, turn three he plays a ton of Armadillo Cloaks, Rancors, and Ancestral Masks and I just flat out can't beat this deck as I've played against another version and lost miserably.
Game 2: See Game 1.

2-1

Round 4: David with Mono Blue Standstill.

Game 1: For some reason he thought he had a Force in hand and let a Troll land while he had tapped out for Standstill, I win awhile after that.
Game 2: Game 2 goes extremely long, while I board in Hymns from the SB. I tear his hand up early and land a few creatures here and there to stop his offensive. Fast forward 35 minutes, I finally draw Stronghold and continue to recur my Baloth and Trolls, while he has about 4 cards left in his library. On his turn, he has two cards left and knows he can't win, so he cast Standstill which I happily break the next turn ftw.

3-1

Finals: RC with Goblins

Game 1: He does what Goblins do, and I can do little to stop him.
Game 2: I bring in Plague, land one turn three, and continue to control the board while I beat with Baloth and Troll.
Game 3: I keep an iffy hand with no Plague, but Smother, Witness, and Tribe Elder. He plays Vial and we pass a few turns back and forth. I eventually land a Plague, but then he plays all the things that don't matter to Plague. He ends up getting three Piledrivers, a Warchief, and a Ringleader and just blowing my face into oblivion while I sit there watching my booster box prize slip away.

3-2

After the game, the shop owner says I should have Smothered a PD turn two, played the Deed turn three, blown it turn four, then played Plague to win. I don't know if that would have worked, seeing the kind of heat I was staring down and whether I had enough life. Apparently the prize structure was 'Winner takes all' with nothing to anyone else except the feeling of being eleven and a half dollars short...Oh well, guess I'll try my hand next time, after a little hiatus. The last match left a little bitter taste in my mouth.

Morim_Brightsmoke
05-30-2006, 08:26 PM
Would anyone be interested in a version of Rock with Survival in it? If so we could work on it here or in another thread (wasn't sure which way to go with that.

Also, has anyone considered mesmeric fiend?

Lastly, way back when Rock began it was running Phyrexian Plaguelord would this card be worth taking a look at?

Sorry, if these suggestions are bad, i am a control or combo player so i don't know the archetype well, but thought those cards might be interesting.

Alex_Van_R
05-31-2006, 07:59 AM
Would anyone be interested in a version of Rock with Survival in it? If so we could work on it here or in another thread (wasn't sure which way to go with that.

Also, has anyone considered mesmeric fiend?

Lastly, way back when Rock began it was running Phyrexian Plaguelord would this card be worth taking a look at?

Sorry, if these suggestions are bad, i am a control or combo player so i don't know the archetype well, but thought those cards might be interesting.

Survival is something completely different. First of al, it gets removed with Pernicious Deed. Second of all, when you're playing a controlversion, you don't have enough creatures to discard to Survival. Last but not least, Living Wish is - in my oppinion - better, because it is a 'tutor' as well.

Mesmeric Fiend only fits in a deck with a lot of speed. It's only usable in the aggroversion of the Rock. They don't play any (or at least not much) Deeds, so Fiend won't easily get away. Also, you already have Duress and Cabal Therapy (and maybe Cranial Extraction) to disrupt your opponent.

Phyrexian Plaguelord is way too slow, I think. I think Kagemaro, First to Suffer is a lot better. Phyrexian Plaguelord needs a lot of creatures to sacrifice in order to make it usefull. (Back in the old days, Rock used Deranged Hermit.)

iOWN
05-31-2006, 04:09 PM
I tested Unearth and it was great. If you have a Therapy in your grave, you can replay it for one black, Witness in play you can do that with all of them. Plus it grabs most creatures in your deck (and all but Baloth and Birds can do something either CiP or sacrifice effect when you Unearth them). I just really like it.

This is the list I've been testing with:

// Lands
4 [R] Bayou
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
7 [IA] Forest (1)
3 [MI] Swamp (4)
2 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
3 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [ON] Ravenous Baloth
4 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 [MR] Troll Ascetic
4 [RAV] Birds of Paradise

// Spells
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
4 [UL] Unearth
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [US] Duress
3 [RAV] Putrefy

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [OD] Haunting Echoes
SB: 3 [LE] Withered Wretch
SB: 2 [MM] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [ON] Naturalize
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague

I didn't use Living Wish so I would have room for more effective hate. If you lose the first game and win both second, it still gets you a full 3 points.

Alex_Van_R
05-31-2006, 04:28 PM
I'm not certain if Unearth will be that good. I think it will be effective during game 1, but even without unearth, people board in graveyardhate against Rock. However, it's worth testing it.



If you lose the first game and win both second, it still gets you a full 3 points.

If you win all your games 2-1, your resistance will be lower at the end of the tournament, meaning your chances to get a first place or winning are less then when you win 2-0.

Eldariel
05-31-2006, 04:34 PM
If you win all your games 2-1, your resistance will be lower at the end of the tournament, meaning your chances to get a first place or winning are less then when you win 2-0.

It very rarely comes down to individual game score. Almost always it's about how your opponents played. In my years of competitive Magic, I've heard of one person who missed Top 8 on individual game score. Just something to keep in mind.

Hoojo
05-31-2006, 06:07 PM
I've been testing Unearth in The Rock for a while. Still trying to come up with the optimal list, but the biggest penalty I've found with it is the limit to converted casting cost of 3. To maximize on this, I've only been running creatures that can be Unearthed. It does some nice tricks, particularly with Deed and Witness.

I've tested it versus Goblins and Deadguy (the inet's favorite decks) and have had about 50/50 results, since Troll isn't that tough. I included two Living Wishes to fetch a Baloth if necessary, but never used them. Overall, Unearth may weaken your aggro game, but improve your control game, but I don't know if it is ultimately better then Stronghold.

iOWN
05-31-2006, 08:02 PM
I've been testing Unearth in The Rock for a while. Still trying to come up with the optimal list, but the biggest penalty I've found with it is the limit to converted casting cost of 3. To maximize on this, I've only been running creatures that can be Unearthed. It does some nice tricks, particularly with Deed and Witness.

I've tested it versus Goblins and Deadguy (the inet's favorite decks) and have had about 50/50 results, since Troll isn't that tough. I included two Living Wishes to fetch a Baloth if necessary, but never used them. Overall, Unearth may weaken your aggro game, but improve your control game, but I don't know if it is ultimately better then Stronghold.

You don't need to cut Baloths for that (it is, the only typical maindeck creature to use with CMC over 4). I've been running Baloths and it doesn't get in your way at all, since you'll always be drawing other creatures that you can Unearth.

You can still run Stronghold alongside it, since Stronghold doesn't even help until mid and late game.

Anarky87
06-01-2006, 12:51 PM
Yes, Stronghold is more of a mid/late game card. I beat a MUC deck with a bazillion counters based solely on me being able to recur a Troll/Baloth every single turn. I haven't tried Unearth, but it might be interesting in getting back things like Witness and Trolls.

I think the deck is catching on in my area. I played it non-stop for 3-4 months until I switched decks recently and it always won, or tied me for 2nd. Now when I finally went back last night, my first round was against a Rock varient of mine, my friend has almost all the cards for it now, and some other guy also has the cards for it. So it looks like I'll be playing against the Rock quite abit more now. It's a very good deck.

Majestyk1136
06-01-2006, 01:53 PM
I hadn't thought of Unearth, but the possibilities are intriguing... Picture This: It's late in the game and you're in topdeck mode. You've had to chump a huge Piledriver with a Troll you couldn't regenerate and you have blown a Witness or two on a Flashbacked Therapy and chumping. You Topdeck Unearth. You Unearth Witness, Getting Back Unearth. You Unearth another Witness, Getting Back Unearth. You Unearth Troll. All for a total of 3 Black Mana. That could be sick, sick, sick, and exactly the sort of play that I've been looking for that is a total kick in the junk.

EDIT: I just want to compliment whoever came up with Unearth. This is a very "Rock-like" play. When you start using Unearth with Witness it's almost unfair. You can alternately get an infinite chump blocker for "B" or the world's cheapest Regrowth. When combined with Genesis/Stronghold it closes a loop with the Witness that allows you (at a very low cost) to begin reanimating your army with alarming speed. Bravo for innovation!!!

Anarky87
06-01-2006, 06:23 PM
I hadn't thought of Unearth, but the possibilities are intriguing... Picture This: It's late in the game and you're in topdeck mode. You've had to chump a huge Piledriver with a Troll you couldn't regenerate and you have blown a Witness or two on a Flashbacked Therapy and chumping. You Topdeck Unearth. You Unearth Witness, Getting Back Unearth. You Unearth another Witness, Getting Back Unearth. You Unearth Troll. All for a total of 3 Black Mana. That could be sick, sick, sick, and exactly the sort of play that I've been looking for that is a total kick in the junk.

EDIT: I just want to compliment whoever came up with Unearth. This is a very "Rock-like" play. When you start using Unearth with Witness it's almost unfair. You can alternately get an infinite chump blocker for "B" or the world's cheapest Regrowth. When combined with Genesis/Stronghold it closes a loop with the Witness that allows you (at a very low cost) to begin reanimating your army with alarming speed. Bravo for innovation!!!

QFT, perhaps this is what the deck needed to push up into the lime light. I'm gonna pick some up, rework the deck, and see how the results turn out. This is what I'm gonna toy with:

4 Bayou
2 Wasteland (The number of targets for this has dropped alot in my meta, so I cut it to two)
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mires
5 Forests
4 Swamps
2 Volrath's Strongholds

4 Eternal Witness
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Wall of Blossoms
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Ravenous Baloth
2 Sakura Tribe Elder

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Duress
3 Unearth
3 Smother
2 Putrefy

iOWN
06-01-2006, 09:39 PM
It's always better to run a fourway split of fetches in two color (well, if they don't have their own fetchland.) There's always a chance that they might drop a Pithing Needle first turn, forced to name the fetchland that they saw you drop because they have no idea what you're playing. You don't want any dead draws. I know, it's not a big thing, but I always like to spread it out just in case.

Also, after trying the deck out a little, I wouldn't push the Elder count below 3 - they make great advantage right at the beginning of the game (and still a good Unearth target), and always provide an easy chump at the beginning (particularly against things like Piledriver).

Anarky87
06-01-2006, 11:21 PM
It's always better to run a fourway split of fetches in two color (well, if they don't have their own fetchland.) There's always a chance that they might drop a Pithing Needle first turn, forced to name the fetchland that they saw you drop because they have no idea what you're playing. You don't want any dead draws. I know, it's not a big thing, but I always like to spread it out just in case.

Also, after trying the deck out a little, I wouldn't push the Elder count below 3 - they make great advantage right at the beginning of the game (and still a good Unearth target), and always provide an easy chump at the beginning (particularly against things like Piledriver).

Yeah, I might fix the Elder count after some more testing. Also no one owns Needles in my area and the ones I've come across have never called my fetchlands. Not that they never would, but not that it would really slow me down that much. In my original build, I ran 4 of the Elders, but found them showing up too often when I didn't want them, so I cut 1 for the 4th Troll and that has been working great.

Citrus-God
06-02-2006, 01:26 AM
How does this look?


// Lands 20
2 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windswept Heath
3 Savannah
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Plains
4 Forest


// Creatures 18
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wall of Blossoms
3 Eternal Witness
3 Loxodon Hierarch
3 Troll Ascetic
1 Genesis


// Spells 22
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Living Wish
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Worship


// Sideboard 15
2 Cranial Extraction
1 Troll Ascetic
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Genesis
1 Ravenous Baloth
1 Bone Shredder
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Kami of Ancient Law
1 Plague Spitter
1 Uborg Shambler
1 City of Brass
1 Dust Bowl
1 Withered Wretch
1 Kamahl, Fist of Krosa

Galroth
06-05-2006, 04:36 PM
So I'm probably going to get flamed for tossing this out there, but here's a twist on The Rock I've been toying around in my head with. Give me some feedback, tell me what you think. Additionally, I don't play The Rock, so if you want to flame, don't be threatened by my impressive stature.

--

The Rock (Land Destruction Variant!)

Land Destruction:
4 Sinkhole
3 Wasteland
2 Argothian Wurm
4 Living Wish

Draw:
4 Eternal Witness
4 Wall of Blossoms
3 Dark Confidant

Mana Fixing:
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Elves of Deep Shadow

Control:
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Smother
2 Putrefy

Land:
4 Bayou
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Swamp
7 Forest

--

Card choices:

Sinkhole - Hot shit, especially in conjunction with Eternal Witness and Wasteland.

Living Wish - 4 more ways to find wasteland, argothian wurm, dark confidant, and your toolbox of toys.

Argothian Wurm - He replaces Ravenous Baloth as the fat. 6/6 with trample isn't bad, and his drawback... is it really a drawback with this deck?

Birds of Paradise and Elves of Deep Shadow - You need BB on your second turn. Between these two cards you're just about guarenteed it.

Putrefy - This is the one card I'm not so sure on. I've considered cutting it for a 3rd wurm and a 4th confidant. Your chances of plopping down a 3rd or 4th turn wurm really increase. It would disallow using a wish to find confidant, but I'm not sure how much you'll wish for confidant anyways.

--

This deck can pull some beautiful early plays for a control deck. Things like first turn bayou and birds, followed by a second turn sinkhole and wasteland... leaves them crying.

To be honest, I'm not sure this variant of the rock really improves any of the rocks matchups. I haven't tested it much. I'm guessing it's worse against solidarity because your only means of stopping them is sinkhole... of course you do have a sideboard.

What it does have... a cool factor of atleast x3. That and you can piss off your opponents by playing a land destruction deck.

Alex_Van_R
06-05-2006, 05:20 PM
You aren't playing the cards the Rock needs to play: Duress/Cabal Therapy. At least, play some handdisruption, because landdestruction only isn't the way to win. The only good matchup I can see with your decklist, are some sloooooow controldecks and maybe aggrodecks, if you can stall the game long enough. That's just because of the landdestruction. But from what I've experienced, most deck can recover from landdestruction.
All your other matchups are a lot worser with your decklist. Because of the lack of handdisruption, you'll lose against combo. (Actually, this makes the controlmatchup worser as well.)
Your matchups against aggro are good as long as you can play Deed, Smother and Putrefy. Then you can come in with the big wurm. However, the drawback can still be a drawback. It's only good when the opponent doens't have any or at least not much land. Either the wurm doens't hit the table, or either the wurm will be removed. Alos, I'd still rather see Ravenous Baloth against aggro/burn.
I'm not a fan of Elves of Deep Shadow. It gives you 1 damage each time you tap it for mana, which makes aggromatchups worser. (The 1 damage each turn can really make the difference!!!)
Cut those Overgrown Tombs. You're already playing 11 nonbasic lands. It makes you vunerable for opposing Wastelands and lookalikes. Play 2x Wooded Foothills + 2x Bloodstained Mire instead.
Now you have a few targets, which allows you to play Life from the Loam. It's a very good card. Try it. Recurring Wastelands and fetch. Hmmmm...
However, if you really want to play landdestruction, I'd simply cut the black and start playing monogreen Landdestruction with Terravore as a wincondition.

Majestyk1136
06-06-2006, 12:35 AM
What it does have... a cool factor of atleast x3. That and you can piss off your opponents by playing a land destruction deck.

Or perhaps my opponent would laugh - Nelson-Like - in my face for playing a terrible deck and then proceed to stomp me with a Vial and a bunch of red men.

Anarky87
06-07-2006, 12:36 PM
Or perhaps my opponent would laugh - Nelson-Like - in my face for playing a terrible deck and then proceed to stomp me with a Vial and a bunch of red men.

Truthery. Just because you put the colors green and black together in the same deck does not automatically make it The Rock. My list, MajestyK's, and Alex's are all well tuned attempts at beating the current meta, and have been proven time and again. The deck so far has not needed any splashes or random LD effects outside of Wasteland, which is enough. The simple idea of massive creature destruction, board sweepers, hand destruction, recursion, and efficient creatures is what makes the deck 'rock' solid. Adding untested things to the deck just dilutes this idea. We should be working on how to further improve upon the original idea, rather just posting random decklists with unneeded inclusions.

Galroth
06-07-2006, 03:09 PM
A question: I've seen Dark Confidant posted in a few builds, but not in most. For those of you who play The Rock alot, why or why haven't you included it.

Anarky, you post quite a bit, why isn't it in your build?

Alex_Van_R
06-07-2006, 04:06 PM
Dark Confidant is only good in a deck that's fast enough to beat the opponent before confidant lets you suicide. It's only being played in the aggrobuild of the Rock. The controlversion is way too slow to use it. Note that the aggroversion doesn't use Pernicious Deed, so confidant won't die. (They normally spoken only play Cabal Therapy to get rid of it.)
Another reason why you shouldn't play Confidant in the controlversion, is because of the manacurve. The controlversion has a lot of cards with coverted mana cost 4 or 5, and the lifeloss you get from it is too big. The aggroversion plays cards with converted manacost of 3 or less. I think they don't even use Baloth. (They do use Phantom Centaur.)

Anarky87
06-07-2006, 04:45 PM
A question: I've seen Dark Confidant posted in a few builds, but not in most. For those of you who play The Rock alot, why or why haven't you included it.

Anarky, you post quite a bit, why isn't it in your build?

Because I'm playing the control version, as Alex said. Not only is he a ginormous bull's eye for removal, but he costs me life that I don't really need to lose. And when I get Deed down and decide to blow it, he'll be toast. Not to mention I run alot of 3-4 cc stuff. I can understand him in the aggro version which doesn't run Deed or Baloth, but alot of 3cc stuff and lower. Lego_Army_Man has an aggro version which he ran in Extended that I think ran DC along with Hyppie and equipment.

The Confidant has his place in certain decks, but not every deck. And in The Rock I just don't find him any useful.

kicks_422
06-10-2006, 12:50 AM
Here's the build I'm running...

4 Bayou
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
6 Forest
4 Swamp
2 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Eternal Witness
2 Ravenous Baloth

4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Putrefy

SB
2 Ravenous Baloth
4 Hymn To Tourach
2 haunting Echoes
4 Engineered Plague
3 Tormod's Crypt

It's more aggro-ish than the builds posted here... Very consistent too, with all of those 4-ofs... It's been doing pretty good, having trouble with Burn though...

Comments? My only problem is all of those BB's and GG's in the casting costs...

Anarky87
06-10-2006, 03:02 AM
Here's the build I'm running...

4 Bayou
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
6 Forest
4 Swamp
2 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Eternal Witness
2 Ravenous Baloth

4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Putrefy

SB
2 Ravenous Baloth
4 Hymn To Tourach
2 haunting Echoes
4 Engineered Plague
3 Tormod's Crypt

It's more aggro-ish than the builds posted here... Very consistent too, with all of those 4-ofs... It's been doing pretty good, having trouble with Burn though...

Comments? My only problem is all of those BB's and GG's in the casting costs...

If you go: -4 Hyppie's, -1 Witness, -1 Tribe Elder, -1 Duress, -1 Putrefy, -1 Forest and +4 WoB, +4 Smother, +1 Baloth, you'd have my exact build ;)

In my build, I'm kinda like a green deck that splashed black for removal and hand disruption, so my mana base leans more toward supporting GG, with the only BB being the Hymn's in my SB. I would try to focus on one color like that. Otherwise I'd say you should add, say, Chrome Mox to help with your double mana requirements. But then you'll have to put up with the wickedly bad synergy of Deed and Mox.

Fistandantilus
06-11-2006, 08:22 PM
http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=418

Maindeck (60):
Spells (38):

3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Living Wish
2 Ravenous Baloth
4 Wall of Blossoms
2 Yavimaya Elder
3 Eternal Witness
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Loxodon Hierarch

Lands (22):

4 Bayou
4 Forest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
2 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windswept Heath


Sideboard (14):

1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bone Shredder
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Engineered Plague
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Orzhov Pontiff
3 Tsunami
1 Virdian Zealot
1 Withered Wretch

Majestyk1136
06-12-2006, 10:56 AM
Ack. This list is all over the place... from the white splash to the presence of Yavimaya Elder (:?) The Elder I guess can fetch the lone Plains and a Swamp/Forest to get out of the Wasteland problem. The recursion engine is limited to the Stronghold, opening him up to being shut out of recursion by Wasteland (barring Witness.)

It seems far from optimal in my opinion, but the result seems to speak for itself. I mean, if you're going to be that deep into white why not go for the full 4 Hierarchs as in most cases they are strictly superior to Baloth? Was Cranial Extraction a big consideration in the Meta? The biggest thing that sticks out in my mind is the lack of Troll Ascetic and the extra fatties/Swords.

It could use a little tuning but I don't see any reason why you'd want to open yourself up to the possibility of land screw for the mere possibility of playing with a marginally better fatty (Hierarch) and slightly better removal (Swords.)

Anarky87
06-12-2006, 06:58 PM
Ack. This list is all over the place... from the white splash to the presence of Yavimaya Elder (:?) The Elder I guess can fetch the lone Plains and a Swamp/Forest to get out of the Wasteland problem. The recursion engine is limited to the Stronghold, opening him up to being shut out of recursion by Wasteland (barring Witness.)

It seems far from optimal in my opinion, but the result seems to speak for itself. I mean, if you're going to be that deep into white why not go for the full 4 Hierarchs as in most cases they are strictly superior to Baloth? Was Cranial Extraction a big consideration in the Meta? The biggest thing that sticks out in my mind is the lack of Troll Ascetic and the extra fatties/Swords.

It could use a little tuning but I don't see any reason why you'd want to open yourself up to the possibility of land screw for the mere possibility of playing with a marginally better fatty (Hierarch) and slightly better removal (Swords.)

Have you played The Rock recently at all, Majesty? I was just curious, I've kinda taken a hiatus from it for awhile, but it is a very potent deck. Though I'm not seeing the 'awesomeness' that the white splash brings.

Alex_Van_R
06-12-2006, 07:59 PM
The only awesomeness the white splash brings, are wrecked manabases and creatures and removal that you don't need to win.
Some changes I will make in my version:

4x Wasteland maindeck (if I can find them somewhere)
1x Dustbowl in the side as a wishtarget

(This is ment for the Thresholdmatchup.)

The deck also needs a good creature with evasion. Kokusho is too easily targetted and removed (StP). Any other suggestions?

Anarky87
06-12-2006, 09:58 PM
The only awesomeness the white splash brings, are wrecked manabases and creatures and removal that you don't need to win.
Some changes I will make in my version:

4x Wasteland maindeck (if I can find them somewhere)
1x Dustbowl in the side as a wishtarget

(This is ment for the Thresholdmatchup.)

The deck also needs a good creature with evasion. Kokusho is too easily targetted and removed (StP). Any other suggestions?

I've never had a problem with Troll and Baloth not being enough. Anytime I blow Deed with Troll/Baloth on board, it really doesn't matter what I have to swing with. Troll just happens to be awesome because he can't be nuked post apocalypse (unless they have some sacrifice effect). Anything that can't be hit with Deed I usually take care of with Putrefy. Unless someone can think of something better, I'm all ears.

Majestyk1136
06-13-2006, 11:15 AM
I'm in agreement with you Anarky, don't get me wrong. I've updated my list to include the Unearths and playing against my friends it's outperformed my Life from the Loams by a wide margin. I still would like to have them if I run into Pikula, but I may be able to find room in the board for them. I wouldn't splash white unless I knew for a fact that there were 0 wastelands being played by my opponents in the tournament. Even then, I'm paranoid and would want to load the deck with a ton of extra fetches or something to make sure the mana came out right.

Unearth is now occupying a slot that definitely wasn't carrying its weight against several Matchups. I also had to make the change to Putrefy from Smother as people in my area have decided that Belcher, (Yeah, I know...) Jitte and Eternal Dragon are cool.

Anarky87
06-14-2006, 01:52 AM
I'm in agreement with you Anarky, don't get me wrong. I've updated my list to include the Unearths and playing against my friends it's outperformed my Life from the Loams by a wide margin. I still would like to have them if I run into Pikula, but I may be able to find room in the board for them. I wouldn't splash white unless I knew for a fact that there were 0 wastelands being played by my opponents in the tournament. Even then, I'm paranoid and would want to load the deck with a ton of extra fetches or something to make sure the mana came out right.

Unearth is now occupying a slot that definitely wasn't carrying its weight against several Matchups. I also had to make the change to Putrefy from Smother as people in my area have decided that Belcher, (Yeah, I know...) Jitte and Eternal Dragon are cool.

Oh, I didn't mean my statement as like a critical question. I was just wondering if you had played it at all recently (I even had to rewrite it a few times, because it kept sounding critical if you couldn't hear my voice). But yes, Unearth has been performing superbly, I'm still tinkering with the amount and what I'm gonna take out for them, but they've been doing great. And I know what you mean about Putrefy. One time I beat a Rifter deck by just constantly recurring Putrefy with Witness and swinging.

Alex_Van_R
06-15-2006, 12:01 PM
Some quotes about the Rock after playing some games with it:

<Kadaj> Great deck, really underrated by most
<Kadaj> I mean... what really bad matchups does it have? Not too many

<nivanson> the rock wipes threshold mostly
<nivanson> and
<nivanson> is generally strong

It's about time this deckdiscussion moves to the open legacy discussion.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-15-2006, 12:36 PM
No uber-resilent creatures? When I was tinkering with this deck I liked the combination of 1x Grave-shell Scarab, 1x Gigapede for buggy goodness. They're certainly powerful versus control and Threshold, the latter of which it seems might be problematic with only Deed, Putrefy, and Smother as removal, with the latter two only hitting Bear in most cases, and the former being highly subject to getting Needled.

Majestyk1136
06-15-2006, 01:01 PM
No uber-resilent creatures? When I was tinkering with this deck I liked the combination of 1x Grave-shell Scarab, 1x Gigapede for buggy goodness. They're certainly powerful versus control and Threshold, the latter of which it seems might be problematic with only Deed, Putrefy, and Smother as removal, with the latter two only hitting Bear in most cases, and the former being highly subject to getting Needled.

This is a strong argument in my opinion in favor of the the Putrefy/Living Wish Version, as it gives you extra outs against pests like the Needle.

That said, it largely doesn't matter as the Rock is a Thresh-crushing machine, typically only being severely damaged by Mystic Enforcer. The rest of Threshold's threats are dealt with pretty easily by Trolls, Walls and Deeds. If we could just come up with a way to better deal with the Combo Matchup we'd be golden... There are just too many MD slots that are devoted to anti-Creature duty to reliably defeat combo pre-SB.

Fistandantilus
06-17-2006, 04:07 AM
OK. So I just played 3 games on MWS against some guy who goes by "Ganso." He's playing Deadguy Ale. White Rock: 3. Deadguy Ale: 0.

Here's the list that I'm playing--the one that won that tourney:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=418

Game 1:

He rolls a 6. I roll a 4. We both keep 7. He plays.

He plays a Swamp. My turn. I play Windswept Heath, sac it, and put a Bayou into play. I'm at 19. I play Duress. He shows me his hand, and I pick Vindicate.

His turn. He plays Caves of Koilos. He plays Sinkhole on my Bayou. He's at 19 (from Caves) and I have no lands in play.

My turn. I play Savannah.

His turn. He plays and taps Wasteland and destroys my Savannah. I'm back to no lands in play. He plays Gerrard's Verdict. He's at 18 (from Caves). I discard Eternal Witness and Loxodon Hierarch.

My turn. I play a Swamp.

His turn. He plays a Swamp and Duress, sending Pernicious Deed to my graveyard.

My turn. I play a Forest and Wall of Blossoms. I draw.

His turn. He plays Gerrard's Verdict. He's at 17 (from Caves). I discard Swords to Plowshares and Sakura Tribe Elder.

My turn. I play Volrath's Stronghold and Birds of Paradise.

His turn. He plays Dark Ritual and Engineered Plague, naming birds. My Bird of Paradise dies. He plays Nantuko Shade.

My turn. I draw and sit.

His turn. He attacks with Nantuko Shade, pumping the Shade up to 4. I'm at 15. At the end of his turn, I tap Stronghold and two lands, putting Sakura Tribe Elder on top of my library.

My turn. I play Sakura Tribe Elder and Cabal Therapy, naming Sinkhole. He only has Vindicate in hand.

His turn. He plays Wasteland and destroys Volrath's Stronghold. Ouch. He plays Vindicate and destroys my Swamp. Double Ouch. He's at 16 (from Caves).

My turn. I draw and sit.

His turn. He attacks with Nantuko Shade. I block with Wall of Blossoms. He pumps Nantuko Shade. Wall of Blossoms dies.

My turn. I draw and sit.

His turn. He attacks with Nantuko Shade. I block with Sakura Tribe Elder. He pumps Nantuko Shade. I sac STE, fetch a Swamp from my library, and put it into play tapped.

My turn. I play another STE and sit.

His turn. He Duresses me, taking my Pernicious Deed. He attacks with Shade. I block with STE. He pumps Shade. I sac STE, fetch a forest from my library, and put it into play tapped.

My turn. I play Scrubland and sit.

His turn. He attacks with Shade and pumps it. I'm at 11.

My turn. I play Wall of Blossoms and draw. I play Living Wish and grab a Loxodon Hierarch from my sideboard.

His turn. He plays Hypnotic Specter. He attacks with Shade. I block with Wall. No casualties.

My turn. I play a Forest and Loxodon Hierarch. Yay! I'm at 15.

His turn. He attacks with Specter and Shade. I block Shade with Wall. He pumps Shade to kill Wall. I'm at 13. Specter makes me discard Birds of Paradise, which aren't about to see play with the Plague sitting there.

My turn. I play another Wall of Blossoms and draw. I attack with the Hierarch. He's at 12. I play Windswept Heath.

His turn. He plays a Swamp. He attacks with Specter and Shade. I block Shade with Wall. He pumps Shade to kill Wall. I'm at 11. I have nothing to discard.

My turn. I attack with Hierarch. He's at 8. I play another Hierarch from my hand. Yay! I'm back up to 15.

His turn. He plays another Shade. He attacks with Specter. I'm at 13. I have nothing to discard.

My turn. I sac the Windswept Heath (I'm at 12) and fetch a Plains. I play Pernicious Deed. I tap 3 and sac Deed. He concedes.

Game 2:

He mulligans to 6. I keep 7. He plays.

He plays Scrubland and Duress, nabbing Deed from my hand.

My turn. I play Windswept Heath, sac it (I'm at 19), and fetch Savannah.

His turn. He plays Scrubland and Gerrard's Verdict. I lose Lodoxon Hierarch and Yavimaya Elder from my hand.

My turn. I play a Swamp and Living Wish for a Loxodon Hierarch from my sideboard.

His turn. He plays Caves of Koilos and sits.

My turn. I play Plains and Wall of Blossoms. I draw.

His turn. He plays Hymn to Tourach. I lose Loxodon Hierarch and Bayou. Ouch.

My turn. I play Birds of Paradise and sit.

His turn. He plays Caves of Koilos and sits.

My turn. I use Bird mana to play Loxodon Hierarch. I'm at 24.

His turn. He Duresses me. I lose Living Wish.

My turn. I attack with Hierarch. He's at 16. I play Pernicious Deed.

His turn. He Vindicates my Hierarch. Bummer.

My turn. I Duress him. He's got 3 cards in hand--all of them Dark Ritual.

His turn. He draws and sits.

My turn. I use Bird mana to play another Loxodon Hierarch. I'm at 28.

His turn. He Duresses me and takes Swords to Plowshares.

My turn. I attack with Hierarch. He's at 12. I play Wall of Blossoms and draw. I play Bayou.

His turn. He plays a Swamp and Nantuko Shade.

My turn. I play Cabal Therapy, naming Dark Ritual. He plays one in response, pumping his Shade, and discards the other, leaving his hand empty. I blow the Deed to wipe out all creatures except for my Hierarch. I attack with Hierarch. He's at 8.

His turn. He draws and sits. Yeah, he's in trouble.

My turn. I attack with Hierarch. He's at 4. I play Birds.

His turn. He plays Dark Confidant. With such low life? Well, he's gotta block now, doesn't he?

My turn. I play Eternal Witness and return Swords to my hand. I Swords his Confidant. He's at 6. I attack with Hierarch. He's at 2.

His turn. He draws. He concedes.

Game 3:

We both keep 7. He plays. He plays a Swamp and Duresses me, taking Deed out of my hand.

My turn. I play Forest and Birds.

His turn. He plays Swamp and Dark Confidant.

My turn. I play Bayou and use Bird mana to play Yavimaya Elder.

His turn. Confidant draws him Vindicate and he goes down to 17. He plays Scrubland and sits.

My turn. I play Plains and Wall of Blossoms. I draw. I use Bird mana to play another Wall of Blossoms. I draw. I attack with Yavimaya Elder. He's at 15.

His turn. Confidant draws him another Confidant and he goes down to 13. He plays Caves of Koilos and Vindicates my Bayou.

My turn. I play Swamp. I attack with Yavimaya Elder. He's at 11. I use bird mana to play Loxodon Hierarch. I'm at 24.

His turn. Confidant draws him Gerrard's Verdict and he goes down to 9. He plays and sacs Polluted Delta and fetches a Scrubland. He's at 8. He Vindicates my Hierarch. Boo. He plays Gerrard's Verdict and I toss two Birds.

My turn. I attack with Yavimaya Elder. He's at 6. I use Bird mana to play Eternal Witness, and I grab a Loxodon Hierarch from my graveyard.

His turn. Confidant draws him Wasteland, which he plays. He plays Dark Ritual, another Dark Confidant, and Duress. He takes Living Wish out of my hand.

My turn. I attack with Yavimaya Elder and Eternal Witness. He blocks Witness with a Confidant. Witness and Confidant die. He's at 4. I use Bird mana to play the Hierarch that I got last turn with Witness. I'm at 28.

His turn. Confidant draws him Hymn to Tourach and he goes down to 2. He plays Polluted Delta and Vindicates my Hierarch. I hate it when that happens. He cracks Delta for a Swamp, going down to his last point of life in the process. He Hymns me. The only card in my hand was Pernicious Deed.

My turn. I attack with Yavimaya Elder, which he blocks with his Confidant. Both die, but I get a Swamp and a Forest out of the deal. I use Bird mana to play Ravenous Baloth. He concedes shortly therafter.

All in all, a very fun and successful deck, in my opinion!

Anarky87
06-18-2006, 10:32 PM
The deck is particularly strong against the field. I know several Thresh players in my area who constantly tell me and others how The Rock just kicks the shit out of it; it's such an insanely good matchup. Has anyone been testing Unearth to good results? I haven't really had the time to give the full attention it needs, but I intend to try it out.

I played the deck in small tournament, but ended up going 1-2. First round I played against U/W Landstill and got pounded. Game 2 was going awesome when I drew 3 Wastelands and held him to one land for about 5 turns, but then drew nothing good and he just stabalized and crushed me again. Round 2 I played against Rifter, and the game was going great until he landed a Humility that he had topdecked after I ditched 2 and went on to annihilate me. Game 2 my deck performed fantastic and crushed him on the back of multiple Hymns and Therapies. Game 3 was going well, like last round, until my deck kinda farted out and he ended up taking the match. Round 3 I wasted some elf deck, and then I was out.

I think you could adjust the deck in order to improve the combo match. As in not devoting so much of your deck towards creature and run some more anti-combo cards.

Majestyk1136
06-19-2006, 12:52 AM
Yes. The unearths are sick. I'm only playing 2 at the moment but they've been worth their weight in gold. Even if it's just reanimating an Elder for B it's a huge boost, and that's probably the worst thing you hit. Just over the weekend given Eternal Witnesses, Wastes and Unearth I successfully Wasted my opponent on 5 Consecutive turns while beating down. It was pitiful.

Citrus-God
06-19-2006, 04:13 AM
Played against Threshold 10 games... won 10/10 against all 3 variants...


// White Rock w/ Worship
// Mana 22
2 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windswept Heath
3 Savannah
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Plains
6 Forest


// Creatures 18
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wall of Blossoms
3 Eternal Witness
3 Troll Ascetic
3 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Genesis


// Spells 21
2 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Living WIsh
3 Worship


// Sideboard 15
2 Duress
2 Cranial Extraction
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Kami of Ancient Law
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Genesis
1 Troll Ascetic
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bone Shredder
1 Uborg Shambler
1 Withered Wretch
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Kamahl, Fist of Krosa

Worship/Troll lock = gg
4th one in the board for missing component...

Alex_Van_R
06-19-2006, 07:57 AM
Majestyk, can I see your sideboard please, since you're playing Living Wish too.

Majestyk1136
06-19-2006, 11:33 AM
//NAME: G/B Control
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Troll Ascetic
3 Putrefy
2 Ravenous Baloth
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Unearth
3 Living Wish
3 Eternal Witness
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
5 Forest
4 Swamp
SB: 1 Genesis
SB: 3 Withered Wretch
SB: 1 Bone Shredder
SB: 1 Ravenous Baloth
SB: 1 Viridian Shaman
SB: 1 Indrik Stomphowler
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Hymn to Tourach

The Hymns and/or Wretches are strictly Metagame calls. Sometimes they get replaced whole hog with Naturalizes and/or Smothers or Edicts depending on the matchups I'm looking at. If Thresh Shows up I like having Edicts and Wretches. If other random Aggro shows up (Goblins mainly) I like to have Smothers. I'm looking for a stronger hate card than Hymn against Combo decks, as Salvagers/game comes down to if I can get a Wretch to stick and Solidarity comes down to (After boarding) if I can actually draw some discard.

Fistandantilus
06-19-2006, 11:53 AM
What is this deck's plan against Iggy Pop?

meanee
06-19-2006, 12:03 PM
to draw a lot of discardspells.
The Rock has not a very good game against most combodecks - anyway, not game 1.


I am trying out a GBw deck - not a lot unlike the morphling.de one, but without living wish, with only 3 big "life" critters, and with vindicate and unearth! Vindicate is a great addition to the deck, it smashes every threat (except for mystic enforcer) and it can also randomly screw your opponents manabase over.

I run 3 unearth, and have found them to be just wonderful. With unearth and eternal witnes you have a blocker every turn for b That has been plain crazy in my goblin testing... Also, to unearth a Sakura-tribe elder, or even better, a yavimaya elder is great!

Anyway, it is a great deck that can take out a broad field, but it still has ugly problems in the combo matchup.
I have though about chalice in the sideboard... It can do grim things to combo when at zero, and it can do even worse things against combo when at one. Only, then it also hurts myself

Another thing: Is four wastelands worth it? I notice that some aren't playing wasteland at all, and I often find myself in a situation where I am using wasteland for the sole purpose of tapping for a colorless. Also it is terrible to draw a hand where the only two lands are wasteland and swamp!
I am definately cutting one wasteland... :)

- meanee

Majestyk1136
06-19-2006, 12:06 PM
They don't have a whole lot of a plan against Wretch. Just wish for Wretch and then stall them by tearing their hand apart for as long as possible. After boarding (should they bring in Bob) you still remove all of your anti Creature stuff and go for maximum chance at drawing a Wretch (hence, bring in 2 of them and leave 1 in the board) and bring in additional hand disruption. You can hold them off long enough to get a Wretch down and make their life miserable.

Anarky87
06-22-2006, 12:44 AM
I think I might pick up some Living Wishes and try that version, just to see which I like best. I'll try your list, Majesty, see how much I like that over my old version.

Bongo
06-23-2006, 12:34 PM
I can see why UGW Thresh has a hard time against the Rock, but in my testing with UGR, I've been able to beat this deck, repeatedly.

Rock has still the edge, but don't underestimate the ability to chain burn. Pithing Needle on Deed coupled with quick beats and burn is dangerous. So I wouldn't say the UGR matchup is grossly in the Rock's favor.

tivadar
06-23-2006, 01:31 PM
This is from my post on another board, but I felt it belonged here:

Nods, I was just browsing The Rock thread and saw very little in the way of matchups. The best I could find was Goblins, Solidarity, Landstill, and RGSA (obviously very outdated) and all these didn't give numbers or percentages, just said in favor, not in favor... There were a couple other postings about 3 game matchups against decks online, which hardly says much of anything. If rock is as good as people seem to think it is, I'd like to see a cleaner thread and have it moved up to Open.

EDIT: I don't think rock is DTB, but it surprises me that for such an old deck, there's no actual matchup percentages on the page. With those, I'm guessing the deck may be able to make Open, given that while not as widely played as some decks, you still see it often enough. That and all the people talking about how rock doesn't get the respect it deserves should try to actually post some matchups rather than have the thread thrown together in the haphazard manner it is now.

Also, please don't report that you went 10/10 against threshold. That in and of itself nearly invalidates the post. It means you either played against a total tool, or you played against a build that wasn't good. Any decent deck in the hands of a competent player will at least get a few wins out of you in 10 games.

Phantom
06-23-2006, 06:20 PM
This is from my post on another board, but I felt it belonged here:

Nods, I was just browsing The Rock thread and saw very little in the way of matchups. The best I could find was Goblins, Solidarity, Landstill, and RGSA (obviously very outdated) and all these didn't give numbers or percentages, just said in favor, not in favor... There were a couple other postings about 3 game matchups against decks online, which hardly says much of anything. If rock is as good as people seem to think it is, I'd like to see a cleaner thread and have it moved up to Open.

EDIT: I don't think rock is DTB, but it surprises me that for such an old deck, there's no actual matchup percentages on the page. With those, I'm guessing the deck may be able to make Open, given that while not as widely played as some decks, you still see it often enough. That and all the people talking about how rock doesn't get the respect it deserves should try to actually post some matchups rather than have the thread thrown together in the haphazard manner it is now.

Also, please don't report that you went 10/10 against threshold. That in and of itself nearly invalidates the post. It means you either played against a total tool, or you played against a build that wasn't good. Any decent deck in the hands of a competent player will at least get a few wins out of you in 10 games.

QFT. Get some good matchup data (at least against the 5 DTB) up with both the GB and white splash builds and the deck will get a lot more respect. This is also a great way to convert players to your who don't believe your numbers (because they will go test it themselves in an attempt to prove you wrong).

Anarky87
06-23-2006, 06:42 PM
I can see why UGW Thresh has a hard time against the Rock, but in my testing with UGR, I've been able to beat this deck, repeatedly.

Rock has still the edge, but don't underestimate the ability to chain burn. Pithing Needle on Deed coupled with quick beats and burn is dangerous. So I wouldn't say the UGR matchup is grossly in the Rock's favor.

I don't really ever come up against UGR Thresh as often as I do UGW. I did have the opportunity to play UGR in the Top 4 a tournament one time, and went 2-1 with little effort. The game I lost was because I kept an iffy hand and it came back to bite me. The guy playing also wasn't a 'scrub' or 'tool', he's a very competent thresh player and has repeatedly made it to the finals on the back of both versions of Thresh.

Yeah, he burned me a few times, but I took care of the rest of his burn through discard. His comment afterwards was, "That deck totally kicked my ass, I wasn't even in it. That deck is solid." Granted this isn't extensive playing results, but I've had a very favorable game against both versions of Thresh when I've played against it in tournaments. I would try to post actual percentages, but that brings me to my next point:


QFT. Get some good matchup data (at least against the 5 DTB) up with both the GB and white splash builds and the deck will get a lot more respect. This is also a great way to convert players to your who don't believe your numbers (because they will go test it themselves in an attempt to prove you wrong).

This is something I am, for the most part, not capable of doing. And this is where I've been wanting some other people to help out with. I just don't have the time to sit down and grind out hours upon hours of percentages with my schedule. All I can do is offer information as to how my tournament results were and how I perceive the favor of the matchup. I would really appreciate it if someone or a group would help in the department of getting actual percentages. So far it's just been the efforts of about 3-4 people with their feedback and others just kind of glancing it over and then moving on. We can't do it all by ourselves.

I know MajestyK and Alex post here routinely as do myself with updates or deck tweaks, but it would be great if we could get some other people to toss the deck together and run it through the gauntlet.

tivadar
06-26-2006, 10:12 AM
I can get through doing 20ish test runs in a couple hours. With 3 or 4 people, each of you should take a deck you know how to play and run tests yourselves based on the builds that you find on this site. I started a blue splash AS deck and have been doing tests that way, and I'm the only one doing them. Of course, this takes the ability to play a hand without bias knowing your opponents hand, but it's not impossible either. While people may not entirely believe your results because you obviously know how to pilot the rock better than the other deck, at least it's a start that gives you an idea on how you're doing.

The hardest deck is obviously solidarity, as playing that without practice... well, it's just not easy. I'd suggest saving it for last. On top of this, these results are better than random MWS ones that may not be using optimal builds (or at least the "accepted" builds).

Majestyk1136
06-26-2006, 11:41 AM
I guess if you know that Solidarity is going to show up you could just load your board with Tsunamis and back it up with discard to get through their weak countermagic until you 'Geddon their board. That should hopefully buy you enough time to win the game through beatdown. BUT: I have yet to run into a Solidarity deck in my metagame. Period. I can't afford to design my deck to beat stuff that just isn't going to be there. As I said a few posts ago some of the people in my metagame find Goblin Charbelcher and other assorted... weirdness to be cool. I metagame against them and smash face.

@ Matchup percentages: All I know is this: I dont' test with incompetents. There's absolutely no point to doing that. I fear UGW Thresh much more than UGR because the white version plays Mystic Enforcer. That is a bad time for this deck if it resolves.

Caleb
06-26-2006, 12:12 PM
Majestyk: try a mesmeric fiend in the sb as a living wish fetch. I like it because it increases the amount of MD combo disruption, and it has served me well.

Anarky87
06-26-2006, 06:55 PM
I guess if you know that Solidarity is going to show up you could just load your board with Tsunamis and back it up with discard to get through their weak countermagic until you 'Geddon their board. That should hopefully buy you enough time to win the game through beatdown. BUT: I have yet to run into a Solidarity deck in my metagame. Period. I can't afford to design my deck to beat stuff that just isn't going to be there. As I said a few posts ago some of the people in my metagame find Goblin Charbelcher and other assorted... weirdness to be cool. I metagame against them and smash face.

@ Matchup percentages: All I know is this: I dont' test with incompetents. There's absolutely no point to doing that. I fear UGW Thresh much more than UGR because the white version plays Mystic Enforcer. That is a bad time for this deck if it resolves.

That's all I do. I know certain people are going to play certain decks, so I just adjust my MD/SB accordingly and then play. There's one guy in my area with Solidarity and says he doesn't like playing it that much. There's no Deadguy anymore, no Thresh really, and no Goblins. There's a U/W Landstill deck that's been making a comeback recently, me and another guy with Rifter, and another dude who plays an Enchantress deck with Trolls and pump spells like Rancor/Armadillo Cloak/Ancestral Mask. Aggro is kinda of creeping out the door in favor of Control decks that are more than capable of handling them.

I also don't test with idiots either. All my test partners have been competent players in their own right.

tivadar
06-26-2006, 11:49 PM
I just have to say that I find it a bit amusing that to my suggestion of testing by playing both decks yourself, your response is "I don't test against idiots." I know what you meant, but it was just amusing. I was by no means suggesting you test against idiots, just that there's no actual test results on this page, at all...

Anarky87
06-27-2006, 01:44 AM
I just have to say that I find it a bit amusing that to my suggestion of testing by playing both decks yourself, your response is "I don't test against idiots." I know what you meant, but it was just amusing. I was by no means suggesting you test against idiots, just that there's no actual test results on this page, at all...

I know what you meant, and I'm sorry if it came off as irratable or rude, totally not my intention ;) That's how I test sometimes. I'll open the deck I'm working on in MWS and then set up another deck on my desk and play that way. It is hard though with decisions with the likes of Therapy (usually I just go by that sense I Duressed them, I would have known what was in their hand).

Then again, sometimes I've been known to make play mistakes against myself...really helps your morale.

SuckerPunch
06-29-2006, 07:30 PM
I take it you guys will run 4x Ohran Viper as soon as you can get your hands on it.

That along with Wall of Blossoms and a couple of Dark Confidants or something and the rock could be a massive card advantage machine.

And let's not forget Birds of Paradise.

With UG creatures getting better and better, I don't know if Deed is still worth running in The Rock. Especially considering that a card like Jitte would serve a very similar function.

You have this green ophid, Dark Confidant, Hypnotic Spectar and many other insane creatures (Birds of Paradise, Withered Wretch etc.) all of which die to Deed.

Soon Rock will have to pass on 3 extraordinary card advantage creatures in Confidant, Viper and Hippe, just for the sake of one card advantage card (Deed). Is that trade off worth it, esp considering what Jitte could offer.

For a long time, a Rock deck without Spiritmonger was unimaginable, perhaps its Deeds turn to fade away as well turning Rock into something of a UG Aggro deck.

Sort of a hybrid of Zilla Stompy and Pikula Black. You get the disruption of Pikula (for combo) with the fat of Zilla.

Anarky87
06-29-2006, 11:28 PM
I take it you guys will run 4x Ohran Viper as soon as you can get your hands on it.

That along with Wall of Blossoms and a couple of Dark Confidants or something and the rock could be a massive card advantage machine.

And let's not forget Birds of Paradise.

With UG creatures getting better and better, I don't know if Deed is still worth running in The Rock. Especially considering that a card like Jitte would serve a very similar function.

You have this green ophid, Dark Confidant, Hypnotic Spectar and many other insane creatures (Birds of Paradise, Withered Wretch etc.) all of which die to Deed.

Soon Rock will have to pass on 3 extraordinary card advantage creatures in Confidant, Viper and Hippe, just for the sake of one card advantage card (Deed). Is that trade off worth it, esp considering what Jitte could offer.

For a long time, a Rock deck without Spiritmonger was unimaginable, perhaps its Deeds turn to fade away as well turning Rock into something of a UG Aggro deck.

Sort of a hybrid of Zilla Stompy and Pikula Black. You get the disruption of Pikula (for combo) with the fat of Zilla.

LAM played a deck with Confidant, Specter, and other fast mana and equipment together in an Extended aggro Rock. I can't say that I'd rather drop Deed to play any of those cards mentioned. The Greenphidian may be something I'd test, but the idea of dropping a component that let's me x/1 my opponent for creatures, enchantments, and artifacts for easily dealt with creatures doesn't thrill me. Deed is card advantage in spades.

All those cards you mentioned are dandy in a deck built for them (aggro Rock), but nothing I think The Rock needs to be revamped to include.

Edit: Also, what UG creatures are getting 'more awesome' that can't be handled with Deed, or any other piece of removal it runs for that matter?

Majestyk1136
06-30-2006, 10:48 AM
There is absolutely zero justification for playing NOT playing Deed just so you can play Ohran Viper. Remember that this is a creature-based format. A 1/3 is pathetic in the grand scheme of things because he dies to EVERYTHING. So what if he may on occasion hit and kill one of Threshold's men. That's assuming that he hasn't been drilled by a Swords, Bolt or some other nasty piece of removal.

For card advantage we get to play with something infinitely more awesome: Eternal Witness. Regrowth With Legs has saved me far more frequently than just a random pluck from the top of my deck. This deck already plays something like 7 MD creatures that Cantrip. Ohran Viper would be extra baggage that is unnecessary. The current configuration of creatures deals with U/G thresh like a red-haired Stepchild.

EDIT: I got Mod Edited!!!

Alex_Van_R
07-05-2006, 02:04 PM
How can you assemble an enchantment with a creature??? Pernicious Deed simply isn't Orhpan Viper and Viper isn't Deed. They don't have the same ability. Period. Cardadvantage: Wall of Blossoms, Witness, Living Wish, Sakura-Tribe Elder (filtering your deck is cardadvantage too), ...

A few adjustments I made to my deck:
Alluren isn't a very good matchup. Duress, Cabal Therapy, Haunting Echoes and Cranial Extraction improve it, but sometimes it's not enough. Someone I know told me to side in Engineered Plague, naming 'beast'. That, of course, is gg for Rock. I've also added Urborg Shambler (or if you want it: Stronghold Taskmaster) as a wishtarget. The Shambler even improves the Pikulamatchup, removing Nantuko Shade and Dark Confidant and making Hypnotic Specter smaller.