Unbanning of Dream Halls: Will it warp the format?

[Cavius The Great]

I really believe that if they unbanned Dream Halls it would warp the format. If not, it would probably become a tier 1 combo deck that doesn't rely on it's graveyard to win, which is huge. I have a Dream Halls list put together just to test and to speculate Magic theory.

Dream Halls.DEC

Spells:44
4 Dream Halls
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Seal of Cleansing
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Brain Freeze
4 Meditate
4 Tidings
4 Opportunity
2 Mox Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Talisman of Progress

Lands:16
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Tundra
4 Hallowed Fountain

Sideboard:15
4 Swords To Plowshares
4 Meddling Mage
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Moat
4 Tormod's Crypt

There you have probably one of the most consistant, resilient as well as fast combo control decks to date. This is just a rough list, but looking at it, I only assume it can easily get second and third turn kills consistantly.

I really believe if they unban Dream Halls a similiar list can easily warp the format and make it unfun for players a la Hulk Flash era. Let me know if you guys feel the same way or disagree with me. This should generate a healthy discussion of the format. Take note that this thread was inspired by The Q&A Adept forum which I was unfortunately unable to post in. Let me know what your thoughts are on this whole situation and let us discuss not only Dream Halls but how it can effect the format as a whole. Hope to hear from you, God is love. Peace.

[Nightmare]

Wait what? Dream Halls? Srsly?

To Elaborate:
~ Vintage tournaments (see Rule 801) have restricted this card since 1999/10/01.
~ Legacy tournaments (see Rule 802) have banned this card since 1999/10/01.
~ Extended tournaments (See Rule 803) have banned this card since 1999/10/01.
~ Standard (Type 2) tournaments (see Rule 804) have banned this card since 1999/04/01.


Also, where is the:

4x Wheel of Fate
4x Diminishing Returns

[emidln]

No Show and Tell? Why pay 3UU when you can pay 2U, play the card in an uncounterable fashion, and alternately drop 11/11 tramplers into play in the face of hate?

[Cavius The Great]

Wait what? Dream Halls? Srsly?

To Elaborate:
~ Vintage tournaments (see Rule 801) have restricted this card since 1999/10/01.
~ Legacy tournaments (see Rule 802) have banned this card since 1999/10/01.
~ Extended tournaments (See Rule 803) have banned this card since 1999/10/01.
~ Standard (Type 2) tournaments (see Rule 804) have banned this card since 1999/04/01.


Also, where is the:

4x Wheel of Fate
4x Diminishing Returns

I'm just referring to the discussion in the Adept forum, Nightmare. I'm not quite sure what you're referring to, giving me those little tidbits of banning info. Unbanning it will just be speculation and it's always good to come up with a list and start brainstorming when R&D is even remotely close to unbanning it.

Diminishing Returns also seems like a maybe, I'm not sure about the Wheel of Fate though. I don't like the idea of giving card advantage to my opponent.

[Nightmare]

4x Dream Halls
4x Show and Tell
4x Diminishing Returns
4x Brain Freeze
2x Time Stretch
4x Force of Will
4x Opportunity
2x Intuition
4x Wheel of Fate
4x Burning Wish
3x Pyroclasm
3x Red Elemental Blast

4x Volcanic Island
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
4x Island
4x Lotus Petal/Chrome Mox

SOOOO MUCH BETTER

Pardon me for not realizing this is in response to the Adept Q&A discussion, as it was 2 months ago.

[Cavius The Great]

4x Dream Halls
4x Show and Tell
4x Diminishing Returns
4x Brain Freeze
2x Time Stretch
4x Force of Will
4x Opportunity
2x Intuition
4x Wheel of Fate
4x Burning Wish
3x Pyroclasm
3x Red Elemental Blast

4x Volcanic Island
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
4x Island
4x Lotus Petal/Chrome Mox

SOOOO MUCH BETTER

Pardon me for not realizing this is in response to the Adept Q&A discussion, as it was 2 months ago.

Ok, you lose Enlightened Tutor and Meddling Mage as well as moat and seal of cleansing, for what? Creature removal and a wishboard? Creature removal such as pyroclasm should be irrelevent most of the times since your combo is so fast. I'm also not feeling the Time Stretch. Not a cool card when going off. You want to be drawing cards, not taking extra turns. this list is good for discussion though but I don't think it's amazing.

[kirdape3]

Dream Halls is one of those cards that you either are going to be used completely unfairly or not at all. Even if it sucks, I have no problems with it being banned.

Anyhow. What's the kill condition going to be? Brain Freeze is okay, but you can literally just go straight for some stupid ridiculously huge bomb off of Dream Halls. I on the other hand love Time Stretch because it is that sort of stupid silly bomb that does something brutally unfair. I've heard Searing Wind being bandied about, but there's probably something else unfair going on.

[TheCramp]

Ok, you lose Enlightened Tutor and Meddling Mage as well as moat and seal of cleansing, for what? Creature removal and a wishboard? Creature removal such as pyroclasm should be irrelevent most of the times since your combo is so fast. I'm also not feeling the Time Stretch. Not a cool card when going off. You want to be drawing cards, not taking extra turns. this list is good for discussion though but I don't think it's amazing.

Last I checked, Time stretch will draw you 2 cards and untap your mana twice. And you missed REB which clearly is not any of the things you damned as irrelevent (sic). Also, pardon me for noting, adding red for removal is bad because critters are irrelevent (sic) BUT dropping white loses you moat?

I like Nightmares jank better than yours, because Time Stretch is hilarious.

[b4r0n]

Anyhow. What's the kill condition going to be? Brain Freeze is okay, but you can literally just go straight for some stupid ridiculously huge bomb off of Dream Halls. I on the other hand love Time Stretch because it is that sort of stupid silly bomb that does something brutally unfair. I've heard Searing Wind being bandied about, but there's probably something else unfair going on.

Form of the Dragon + double Time Stretch?

[Nightmare]

Form of the Dragon + double Time Stretch?HAHA! Oh man, that's too much! I'm proxying this shit up right now.

[FakeSpam]

Sway of the Stars/Searing Flesh is much, much cooler.

[kirdape3]

Only if you wipe your ass with the Searing Flesh before you dome your opponent with it.

Form of the Dagron (never Dragon, always Dagron) is fresh though.

[Cavius The Great]

Last I checked, Time stretch will draw you 2 cards and untap your mana twice.

You don't understand, Time Stretch is complete garbage. It's only good when you decide to end your turn. Not a very good card when you're going off trying to build up a storm count, is it. That fact alone makes draw spells clearly superior. And last time I checked untapping your mana twice with a Dream Halls in play isn't very significant. Time Stretch is literally an Inspiration that isn't good until you say "pass my turn".

[Lukas Preuss]

Any deck that tries to abuse Dream Halls will be always worse than Spring Tide. Of course, Spring Tide needs untap effects and High Tide as it's mana engine, whereas Dream Halls.dec only needs Dream Halls, but this is much more expensive and vulnerable.

Seriously, let's compare the two:

Draw Spells :
Spring Tide has draw spells that actually help pre-combo to set up a turn three win. Dream Halls runs crap like Wheel of Fate and Opportunity that do nothing by themselves.

Mana Engine:
Spring Tide has High Tide (and Merchant Scroll to get it reliably) and some untap effects. This makes it able to go off by turn 3 quite often. Dream Halls runs Show and Tell and maybe Ancient Tomb. This is faster, with turn two wins possible (or even turn 1 wins with Lotus Petal or Chrome Mox), but if you don't draw these (since you're forced to run crappy draw spells), you're most likely screwed until turn 3 or later. At which point you could just as well play Spring Tide.

Ability to fight through Disruption:
Well, the fact that Dream Halls turns all your opponent's Counterspells into FoW doesn't help it much.

[TeenieBopper]

Dream Halls is one of those cards that you either are going to be used completely unfairly or not at all. Even if it sucks, I have no problems with it being banned.


What he said.


Also, I"m noticing a startling lack of Mana Severence in every list posted. Just saying.

P.S.- Diminishing Returns sucks in this deck.

Edit: Yes, it would rely on the graveyard to win. See: Gaea's Blessing recursion

Edit2- I forget that nobody here has the slightest inkling of Magic history. Here is the original broken Dream Halls deck. You're Welcome.

3 x Gaea's Blessing
1 x Inspiration
1 x Lobotomy
1 x Impulse
1 x Counterspell
4 x Memory Lapse
4 x Mana Severance
4 x Ancestral Memories
4 x Sift
4 x Meditate
4 x Intuition
4 x Dream Halls
4 x Lotus Petal
4 x Ancient Tomb
4 x Svyelunite Temple
4 x Crystal Vein
9 x Island

edit3: Brain Freeze sucks. You know why? You have to say 'go.'

edit4: In case I wasn't clear- yes, it would warp the format. Dream Halls is second only to Mind's Desire and Yawgmoth's Will in regards to "retarded brokenness."

[Cavius The Great]

Sway of the Stars/Searing Flesh is much, much cooler.

I really think we should build a deck based around this idea.


What he said.


Also, I"m noticing a startling lack of Mana Severence in every list posted. Just saying.

P.S.- Diminishing Returns sucks in this deck.

Edit: Yes, it would rely on the graveyard to win. See: Gaea's Blessing recursion

Edit2- I forget that nobody here has the slightest inkling of Magic history. Here is the original broken Dream Halls deck. You're Welcome.

3 x Gaea's Blessing
1 x Inspiration
1 x Lobotomy
1 x Impulse
1 x Counterspell
4 x Memory Lapse
4 x Mana Severance
4 x Ancestral Memories
4 x Sift
4 x Meditate
4 x Intuition
4 x Dream Halls
4 x Lotus Petal
4 x Ancient Tomb
4 x Svyelunite Temple
4 x Crystal Vein
9 x Island


Lol. I remember this deck when it was type 2 legal. I was 16 and some dude after a tournament that he took first place with tried to sell me the deck cuz he knew Dream Halls was going to get banned. I didn't realize until I got older that he was trying to hustle me. Those were the good old days...

[Jaynel]

Sway of the Stars wipes your Dream Halls off the board. Not so hot.

[FakeSpam]

Sway of the Stars wipes your Dream Halls off the board. Not so hot.

so float mana with infinate lotus petals first.

[etrigan]

Edit2- I forget that nobody here has the slightest inkling of Magic history. Here is the original broken Dream Halls deck. You're Welcome.

[list]



Thank you. I was looking for this, and you just saved me the trouble.

Seriously guys, load this into MWS and goldfish a few times. It's just ridiculous, how you just drop Dream Halls and win.

And it's a fucking Type 2 deck. Just imagine it with FoW and better cantrips. Insane.

[Illissius]

It will warp the format with its enormous magnitude of suck.

I seriously see no way how the deck be better than Tide, and Tide isn't very good right now. You need to find and resolve a single concrete spell which costs five mana, build your deck around it using awful cards, and you don't even get to Brain Freeze for lots if your opponent counters the combo, because the combo was Dream Halls.

[C.P.]

It will warp the format with its enormous magnitude of suck.

I seriously see no way how the deck be better than Tide, and Tide isn't very good right now. You need to find and resolve a single concrete spell which costs five mana, build your deck around it using awful cards, and you don't even get to Brain Freeze for lots if your opponent counters the combo, because the combo was Dream Halls.

I seriously see no way how the deck be better than Flash, and Flash isn't very good right now. You need to find and resolve a single concrete spell which costs two mana, build your deck around it using awful creatures, and you don't even get to storm for lots if your opponent counters the instant, because the combo was Flash.

Ok, joke aside, as many people stated, how Dream Halls cheats mana in fundamental way makes it very dangerous. I think we can do without it anyway, since it will be either no one plays it or it gets banned after it blows a large event.

[TeenieBopper]

It will warp the format with its enormous magnitude of suck.

I seriously see no way how the deck be better than Tide, and Tide isn't very good right now. You need to find and resolve a single concrete spell which costs five mana, build your deck around it using awful cards, and you don't even get to Brain Freeze for lots if your opponent counters the combo, because the combo was Dream Halls.

Dream Halls has to resolve one spell. Tide has to resolve a whole lot more than that.

Oh yeah, and Dream Halls can't fizzle.

[Nightmare]

BTW, Diminishing Returns doesn't suck in this deck. I put my list together, and it's fucking retarded. I had to tweak it a bit to get the manabase working and stuff, but you're way off, Mike. Draw7's are some good.

4x Dream Halls
3x Show and Tell
4x Brainstorm
3x Diminishing Returns
2x Form of the Dragon
3x Time Stretch
4x Force of Will
4x Opportunity
2x Intuition
3x Wheel of Fate
4x Burning Wish
3x Pyroclasm
1x Red Elemental Blast

4x Volcanic Island
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
6x Island
4x Lotus Petal

Wishboard:
1x Show and Tell
1x Wheel of Fate
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Pyroclasm
1x Time Stretch
1x Mana Severance
etc.

It's been really fun to go nuts with this deck.

[Bryant Cook]

Why don't we just unban Yawgmoth's Will? I hate threads like these. Come to think of it why not play Yawgwill? OR Minds Desire? I mean these aren't broken, because well Dream Halls isn't.

[Illissius]

Dream Halls has to resolve one spell. Tide has to resolve a whole lot more than that.

Oh yeah, and Dream Halls can't fizzle.

You mean Halls doesn't also have to resolve a bunch of draw spells, Time Stretches, and/or kill spells? And it doesn't generally matter how many spells you have to resolve if you do it at the "same time" (on the same turn / before your opponent gets any new cards or mana), because your opponent will attempt to stop the most important spell, not all of them (at least not unless they do stop the most important one first). So they'll try to stop Dream Halls in one case, and something like High Tide or Meditate in the other. The difference is that if they succeed, the Tide deck has a much better chance of having a second card which does mostly the same thing (not to mention a big Brain Freeze) than the Dream Halls deck has of having a second Dream Halls. Dream Halls combines all the weaknesses of engine combos and, for lack of a better term, "traditional" combos. (Ones which need 2-3 specific cards to go off, like Illusions-Donate, Ornithopter-Renewal-Bombardment, and so on).

By the way, what do you call not finding or resolving Dream Halls, or not having a worthwhile spell plus another card of the same color left after you do? I call it fizzling.

[Cavius The Great]

BTW, Diminishing Returns doesn't suck in this deck. I put my list together, and it's fucking retarded. I had to tweak it a bit to get the manabase working and stuff, but you're way off, Mike. Draw7's are some good.

4x Dream Halls
3x Show and Tell
4x Brainstorm
3x Diminishing Returns
2x Form of the Dragon
3x Time Stretch
4x Force of Will
4x Opportunity
2x Intuition
3x Wheel of Fate
4x Burning Wish
3x Pyroclasm
1x Red Elemental Blast

4x Volcanic Island
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
6x Island
4x Lotus Petal

Wishboard:
1x Show and Tell
1x Wheel of Fate
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Pyroclasm
1x Time Stretch
1x Mana Severance
etc.

It's been really fun to go nuts with this deck.

Nightmare, why no Ancient Tombs? Last time I checked, first turn kills was teh nutz.

[Nightmare]

Meh. -2 Island, -2 Delta, +4 Tomb. Still dumb.

[Nightmare]

You mean Halls doesn't also have to resolve a bunch of draw spells, Time Stretches, and/or kill spells? And it doesn't generally matter how many spells you have to resolve if you do it at the "same time" (on the same turn / before your opponent gets any new cards or mana), because your opponent will attempt to stop the most important spell, not all of them (at least not unless they do stop the most important one first). So they'll try to stop Dream Halls in one case, and something like High Tide or Meditate in the other. The difference is that if they succeed, the Tide deck has a much better chance of having a second card which does mostly the same thing (not to mention a big Brain Freeze) than the Dream Halls deck has of having a second Dream Halls. Dream Halls combines all the weaknesses of engine combos and, for lack of a better term, "traditional" combos. (Ones which need 2-3 specific cards to go off, like Illusions-Donate, Ornithopter-Renewal-Bombardment, and so on).
One of the advantages Dream Halls has is it's ability to win incramentally. Time Stretch helps this out, by the way. If you don't have the ability to win now, for whatever reason, you have at least a couple more turns to find a way out. The Draw7s are good for this, too.

A few other things you're missing - Dream Halls plays like, a gajillion copies of Dream Halls, because it plays 4 Burning Wish/4 Show and Tell. Your opponent cannot let that spell resolve. Even if you use it as bait (ie: have FotD or Colossus in hand, but no Halls), it's still a must-counter, otherwise you go nuts. If they do counter it, you still have a Dream Halls in your hand. Effectively, they need two counters to every threat you play, plus you have your own counterspells. It's not as though you don't play any (and btw, REB is almost better than Force in this deck).


By the way, what do you call not finding or resolving Dream Halls, or not having a worthwhile spell plus another card of the same color left after you do? I call it fizzling.Bad Luck?

[Cavius The Great]

Something just came to mind, Nightmare. Dream Halls.DEC has a horrendous matchup versus Burn. Free spells and draw-7s makes Burn very, very happy. Maybe another reason to unban it, make Burn a tier 1 hate deck, hehe. :laugh:

[bigbear102]

I was just goldfishing Nightmare's build and won about 4 games out of 6 or 7 on turn 3 or 4, 2 of them had force backup.

One of the games I lost was a combo on turn 3, but I had to play diminishing returns 3 times and ended up removing both forms. If i had been keeping track, i might have been able to deck my opponent with wheels and opportunities, but that is unlikely.

[Lukas Preuss]

With it's Ancient Tomb manabase, Dream Halls.dec could easily run something like Chalice of the Void for protection without hindering itself much. This would shut off much of Burn's spells.

I'm still not that much convinced that it would be way better than Spring Tide. Maybe it is, but then Spring Tide is currently not even considered tier 2 (can't wait for Anwar's deck list, though)... I doubt that Dream Halls would warp the metagame.

[Eldariel]

Something just came to mind, Nightmare. Dream Halls.DEC has a horrendous matchup versus Burn. Free spells and draw-7s makes Burn very, very happy. Maybe another reason to unban it, make Burn a tier 1 hate deck, hehe. :laugh:

While that would be funny, the big problem with that idea is that Burn's economy-problem is actually the card economy, not the mana economy. Therefore, while Burn could play the cards for free, it won't have enough handcards to wipe you out before you're already going off. And at that point, there's a whole bunch to do about it.

[Lukas Preuss]

I was just goldfishing Nightmare's build and won about 4 games out of 6 or 7 on turn 3 or 4, 2 of them had force backup.


So, how is this any different than Spring Tide? This is excactly the goldfish speed and consistency of that deck and it surely isn't warping the metagame right now. It is quite good, but by no means dominating.

[TeenieBopper]

BTW, Diminishing Returns doesn't suck in this deck. I put my list together, and it's fucking retarded. I had to tweak it a bit to get the manabase working and stuff, but you're way off, Mike. Draw7's are some good.

4x Dream Halls
3x Show and Tell
4x Brainstorm
3x Diminishing Returns
2x Form of the Dragon
3x Time Stretch
4x Force of Will
4x Opportunity
2x Intuition
3x Wheel of Fate
4x Burning Wish
3x Pyroclasm
1x Red Elemental Blast

4x Volcanic Island
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
6x Island
4x Lotus Petal

Wishboard:
1x Show and Tell
1x Wheel of Fate
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Pyroclasm
1x Time Stretch
1x Mana Severance
etc.

It's been really fun to go nuts with this deck.

Wait a minute.

You're using one of the most disgusting combo enablers of all time, and your kill condition is Form of the fuckin' Dragon? Naga, please.

[Nightmare]

Wait a minute.

You're using one of the most disgusting combo enablers of all time, and your kill condition is Form of the fuckin' Dragon? Naga, please.
It's better than Brain Freeze. I'm open to suggestions that are better than "decking them," and aren't Searing Wind.

[APriestOfGix]

Lombotimy, FTW is the BEST!!!

[Nihil Credo]

Fathom Trawl seems made for this deck. Also, if you run Brainspoil you get a card that can transmute for Dream Halls, Fathom Trawl, Tidings, and Force of Will. And maybe Misdirection.

U/B can also let you use Lim-Dul's Vault, which feeds both blue and black spells (Tendrils of Agony? Storm 17-18 doesn't seem easy to achieve without decking yourself), and can set up your next draws to make sure you don't fizzle.

(Edited for accuracy.)

[Nightmare]

Vault doesn't set up your library.

[matelml]

What about grapeshot?

[FakeSpam]

Well, since you are already going infinite, if we can find a way to squeeze 4x carrier pigeons in this deck...

[etrigan]

It's better than Brain Freeze. I'm open to suggestions that are better than "decking them," and aren't Searing Wind.

What, exactly, is wrong with decking them?

[MattH]

The best kill might be using Research//Development to shuffle a kill in when you're ready to win.

[Nihil Credo]

Why bother? You'd still end up with maindecking a dead card, and wasting SB slots to boot - it's not like Development will do much for you.

[Cavius The Great]

I still think my build is the best. White gives you Enlightened Tutor, which is huge, Meddling mage against opposing combo as well as Seal of Cleansing and Oblivion Ring to get rid of random things that would prevent you from winning the game.

First turn Tomb, Talisman, Lotus Petal, E. Tutor (for Dream Halls) off Talisman.
Second turn, land, tap Tomb, tap land, tap Talisman, sac Petal, cast Dream Halls, go off.

this is an example of a second turn kill which my decklist is fully capable of. If your list isn't as explosive as this, then something's wrong.

P.S. - White also gives you Pursuit of Knowledge which is a nifty draw spell that fits well within the deck's theme, especially if you chose to run Brainstorm.

[psly4mne]

I like Burning Wish -> Spiraling Embers as a kill, with Temporal Cascade and (optionally) Plagiarize to get your hand size up. You probably want Defense Grid if you aren't playing Plagiarize.
I'm actually going to suggest cutting Brainstorm. You don't want to keep a hand that doesn't contain DH or Intuition, so Brainstorm would be better off as more gas.


Why aren't you playing the old-style manabase with Sveylunite Temple and Crystal Vein? You won't always have S&T.

[Silverdragon]

First turn Tomb, Talisman, Lotus Petal, E. Tutor (for Dream Halls) off Talisman.
Second turn, land, tap Tomb, tap land, tap Talisman, sac Petal, cast Dream Halls, go off.



You have 7 cards in your starting hand and you draw a Dream Halls turn 2 so when you go off you have
Tomb (1)
Talisman (2)
Lotus Petal (3)
E. Tutor (4)
second land (5)
Dream Halls (6)
This leaves you with exactly 2 cards in hand one of which has to be able to draw you at least 2 cards (to keep the combo going) and the other has to be of the same color (so you're able to cast the first card). In this scenario you lose to any disruption. Even if you have a random blue card and Opportunity you have to find another draw 4 in the next 4 cards to not fizzle.

[Cavius The Great]

You have 7 cards in your starting hand and you draw a Dream Halls turn 2 so when you go off you have
Tomb (1)
Talisman (2)
Lotus Petal (3)
E. Tutor (4)
second land (5)
Dream Halls (6)
This leaves you with exactly 2 cards in hand one of which has to be able to draw you at least 2 cards (to keep the combo going) and the other has to be of the same color (so you're able to cast the first card). In this scenario you lose to any disruption. Even if you have a random blue card and Opportunity you have to find another draw 4 in the next 4 cards to not fizzle.

That's just an example of a second turn kill. I'm pretty sure this deck can go off by the third or fourth turn consistantly, otherwise.

[Lego]

That's just an example of a second turn kill. I'm pretty sure this deck can go off by the third or fourth turn consistantly, otherwise.

Looks like someone's backpedaling.

What's the point in this discussion? Is there some announcement I missed? Does anyone actually believe that Wizards will unban Dream Halls?

[freakish777]

Eye of the Storm much?

Decking them with Brain Freeze is fine.

Basically play something resembling a Solidarity list minus High Tide, Reset and Turnabout, and run S&T, Halls, and Eye of the Storm and a draw7 or 2 instead.

You shouldn't have any trouble with the number of instants you running ensuring that you keep control of the Eye of the Storm....

[blarknob]

Why aren't any of your lists running Future Sight?

hmm Spellweaver Volute may even have a place in this deck.

[freakish777]

Why aren't any of your lists running Future Sight?

Because Future Sight has zero interaction with Dreams Halls. You cannot alt-cast a card being revealed with Future Sight off of Dream Halls. You cannot use a card being revealed with Future Sight to alt-cast a spell in your hand via Dream Halls either.

[Wallace]

Hey why are non of your lists running lots of artifacts and Tolarian Academy? I mean we are talking about a card that will never be un-banned here....

[burkey_boy]

grozoth and that 9 mana 10 damage burn spell.... searing winds? something like that

transmute the grozoth, get 4 burns.... play other 2, 20 damage quick smart.

[Barook]

grozoth and that 9 mana 10 damage burn spell.... searing winds? something like that

transmute the grozoth, get 4 burns.... play other 2, 20 damage quick smart.
Sounds like fun, except for the part that every Transmutation costs :1::u::u: - you still have to pay for it, even with Halls in play.

[sammiel]

but if you cast grozoth you can get all 4 searing winds, and use 2 of them to pay for the other 2.

[Lego]

Because Future Sight has zero interaction with Dreams Halls. You cannot alt-cast a card being revealed with Future Sight off of Dream Halls. You cannot use a card being revealed with Future Sight to alt-cast a spell in your hand via Dream Halls either.

This is untrue. You can discard a card in your hand to play the top card of your library. You simply can't discard the card on top of your library.


but if you cast grozoth you can get all 4 searing winds, and use 2 of them to pay for the other 2.

The downfall of this is that it requires you to run 4 Searing Winds...

[freakish777]

This is untrue. You can discard a card in your hand to play the top card of your library. You simply can't discard the card on top of your library.


My bad, it's been a while since I've seen the text on Dream Halls, because you don't really need to know it. It's too bad however that Dream Halls doesn't allow you to play Flashback costs, if it did DA would probably be worth of inclusion as you could discard it to pay for something, then discard something else and pay the 3 life to get 2 more cards.

[Nightmare]

My bad, it's been a while since I've seen the text on Dream Halls, because you don't really need to know it. It's too bad however that Dream Halls doesn't allow you to play Flashback costs, if it did DA would probably be worth of inclusion as you could discard it to pay for something, then discard something else and pay the 3 life to get 2 more cards.
Or you could discard 1 card to play Opportunity, which is effectively the same thing, but you discard 1 less card and it's an instant.

[TeenieBopper]

Why are we still talking about this? Dream Halls isn't unbanned, and isn't going to be unbanned.

[Alfred]

Why are we talking about this? Because it's fun to?

[Nightmare]

Why are we talking about this? Because it's fun to?
What else should we be discussing?

[Grollub]

What else should we be discussing?

The sudden rage of tribal decks in the ND forum, what will white get? Kithkin, Giants, Soldiers or even birds? Only time will tell, stay tuned...

[Noman Peopled]

I don't care if this thread is pointless or not. The title is clear enough so that anybody not interested is completely free to neither read nor waste their precious postin time :(

In any case, I wrote about Dream Halls a while back, and I'm still not sure. It sucks or is busted. There's little middle ground.
On the one hand, it is a 5CC-spell that's susceptible to REB/Pyroblast, which you can play a whopping four of in your sixty, and requires tutors that'll steal a turn (unless you're going with the cantrip engine and we see how well that works with HT atm, or Rector which is faster by a turn but dilutes the deck concept).
On the other hand, if it works, you win. If you can pull it off consistently and fast ... you're a better deck builder than me. Congrats :D

Btw, screw Time Stretch. I'd take great care that my deck has as many castable spells as humanely possible, so I don't just lose when my first Dream Halls gets countered. Draw7s are good but I'd rather be able to win with a comparatively small storm count and be able to use my spells without having to cast a 5CC enchantment first - I can fire off a Meditate turn 2 and not lose against many decks; not easy to pull off turn 3 with a fresh hand for each player.
As for the win condition, that depends on what color you're playing. If there's some red, Grapeshot doesn't seem half bad. Black has Tendrils, obv.
The Blessing recursion can still be stopped by Extirpate so I'd either put some Chants in there, or rely on Burning Wish. Of course, a Rectal Agony shell also provides Cabal Therapy. (Though I'd still be happier if I didn't need Blessings at all.)
Still, I doubt if it's any faster than (only potentially) backbreaking spells like Teeg, Chalice (depending on your deck, obv), 3sphere, etc. But I'm absolutely certain Halls could be put to much better use than, say, Replenish, which admittedly isn't saying a lot. That's a two-card combo at the very least, after all ...

[Alfred]

What else should we be discussing?

I think you read this wrong. I was saying that we should be allowed to talk about this subject because it's fun to, not questioning why we are doing it.

[Happy Gilmore]

Why wasn't Dream halls considered as a canditate for the special source tournament? I guess It might have been too good.