[Discussion] Why isn't black a dominant color in Legacy?

[TheDarkshineKnight]

When I look at the current decks to beat, it seems like black has good answers for all of them. If one needs graveyard hate, black has it in spades. Need creature removal? Black has that too. Land destruction? Black's on top of that also. Combo hate? Wow, Blacks seems to have that covered, too. Yet, black is relatively absent from the metagame. Why is this?

[Nightmare]

Because it can't do all of those at the same time, and it sucks at winning the game while doing any of them.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

It lacks follow through and flexibility.

If you're running creature removal, it's dead against combo, and even in the match-ups where it matters, it's situational. Smother might be great against Goyf, but it's pretty awful against Enforcer, or Angel. Edict might answer those individually, but not if the opponent has multiple creatures. Terror can answer Angel and Goyf but not Enforcer or Ghoul.

Discard is also situational. Hymn is sometimes powerful, sometimes irrelevant. Thoughtseize is cool, but the life loss isn't insignifigant, especially if you're combining it with Confidant and fetch-lands. And no discard is good against a topdeck(except Funeral Charm of course).

Land destruction is awful vs. Vial or Lackey, and not very good against decks with really low curves and Daze.

Graveyard removal is also situational. Most of its mediocre against Goyf(like Extirpate), or useless against non-GY strategies(like Wretch).

And your muscle is all either too small(Carnophage, Wretch, Hyppie), or has big drawbacks that look really silly with Goyf around(Fleshreaver, Negator).


Thoughtseize does give new reasons to splash black though, so we may see more of it in the future.

[b4r0n]

When I look at the current decks to beat, it seems like black has good answers for all of them. If one needs graveyard hate, black has it in spades. Need creature removal? Black has that too. Land destruction? Black's on top of that also. Combo hate? Wow, Blacks seems to have that covered, too. Yet, black is relatively absent from the metagame. Why is this?

IMO, the main problem with black is that it doesn't really provide anything unique. Graveyard hate can be obtained through Tormod's Crypt or Leyline (which doesn't really require black). White has the better creature removal in the form of Swords, and all colors have access to Engineered Explosives. Wasteland is colorless land destruction, so it fits into any deck. Every other color has access to some form of combo hate, be it in color (countermagic in blue, Chant/Abeyance in white) or colorless (Chalice, etc.), so black isn't really necessary.

Black definitely does shows up in the metagame though; it's used in several of the decks in the DTB Forum (Landstill, Fish, Aluren, Breakfast) as well as many decks that aren't top tier. However, it seems to me that it's more useful as a splash than as a primary strategy. Black certainly provides some useful tools, such as Duress/Thoughtseize/Therapy, Extirpate, Confidant, and Plague, but these alone aren't really enough to create a competitive deck.

[Happy Gilmore]

It was doing fine before Tarmogoyf. Thats not a joke.

[nitewolf9]

It was doing fine before Tarmogoyf. Thats not a joke.

qfmft.

But yeah, black seems to be better as a splash color to gain access to the really powerful cards it offers, mostly in the sideboard (plague, leyline, thoughtseize, spiritmonger, etc.).

[AnwarA101]

When I look at the current decks to beat, it seems like black has good answers for all of them. If one needs graveyard hate, black has it in spades. Need creature removal? Black has that too. Land destruction? Black's on top of that also. Combo hate? Wow, Blacks seems to have that covered, too. Yet, black is relatively absent from the metagame. Why is this?

Black is a fine color in Legacy. It sees lots of splashes and there have been successful decks built around it in the past (Deadguy Ale, Red Death). It sees play in TES, Ichorid, Breakfast, some builds of Threshold. Its not really absent from the metagame, unless you mean that there isn't a black-based deck that is a DTB right now. What kind of black deck should there be? Control? Aggro-Control? Aggro? Combo? I mean there are decks like TrainWreck, Red Death, SI, and others, but all of them have their own issues for why they aren't dominating.

If you think black can be dominant then you need to build that deck.

[DragoFireheart]

Someone really needs to make a Specter-Extirpate Black Control deck with lots of discard and other disruption.

[Cabal-kun]

Someone really needs to make a Specter-Extirpate Black Control deck with lots of discard and other disruption.

So you want two sub-par performing ideas in the same deck? Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Jak]

Maybe a black and white control deck? With Isochron Scepter and Orim's Chant. With Extirpate too! But anyways, I think the main problem it has is the same as green. It has great cards, but you don't need to be all black or all green to use those great cards. It almost makes every deck with black or green better to splash.

[DragoFireheart]

So you want two sub-par performing ideas in the same deck? Two wrongs don't make a right.

Whats subpar with massive discard and then ripping apart their deck? You could throw in some creature removal to deal with mass-weeines like Goblins if you want.

Hell, you only need 2-3 Extirpates to GG most Thresh decks.

[AnwarA101]

Whats subpar with massive discard and then ripping apart their deck? You could throw in some creature removal to deal with mass-weeines like Goblins if you want.

Hell, you only need 2-3 Extirpates to GG most Thresh decks.

Most discard spells are sorceries. What else are you going to imprint on your Scepter when you don't draw one of your 2-3 Extirpates?

[DragoFireheart]

Most discard spells are sorceries. What else are you going to imprint on your Scepter when you don't draw one of your 2-3 Extirpates?

You could splash for Blue and run counters if you really wanted to.

[AnwarA101]

You could splash for Blue and run counters if you really wanted to.

Splashing which counters? Counterspell is :u: :u: and mana leak is less than excellent. Maybe stifle or spell snare? Doesn't sound that great.

[Wynk]

Scepter Chant, which is what I think you were aiming at with the counters, chants, and scepters has considered a black splash for extirpate, engineered plague, etc. Some posters agreed with it, some decided to stick with the WRU build, and some went crazy and tried a 4 color combination. J/K! Don't kill me!

All the black splashes ended up being exactly that, splashes. The primary colors were still U/W. Most of the black cards were for extirpates and sideboard gravehate.

If anything, to make black a strong primary color, it might be best to go along a fish/threshold route and use duress, thoughtseize, cabal therapy, extirpates, rituals, hippies, the discard fairy, dark confident, 4X tarmogoyf for speed, mongoose, werebear, and possibly pernicious deed and or putrify for extra control. Black rips apart resources on both sides and green gives options as well as several powerful clocks. Black sideboard options are also fairly powerful with plagues, yixnid jailers, wretches, more extirpates, tons of creature removal, etc.

Such a deck would likely do immense amounts of damage to itself though a la fairy stompy and burn out quickly. Still, it would have decent game vs. combo/control, and have enough of a clock to combat aggro. Maybe. And is that any better than the blue based thresh decks?

[rsaunder]

Maybe a black and white control deck?One that has a clock and MB graveyard hate and mass removal and discard and that can board extirpate when it doesnt suck? Deadguy?

[Jak]

One that has a clock and MB graveyard hate and mass removal and discard and that can board extirpate when it doesnt suck? Deadguy?

Lol, no. I meant a deck that could be good. Jk. I was thinking of something like Quinn the Eskimo, with added black. Something that has an Enlightened toolbox. I have no clue if it would do well. I know I am getting good results with Rabid Wombat with a small black splash for Extirpate and SB man plan with negators, but it is hardly used as much as this thread wants.

[troopatroop]

qfmft.

But yeah, black seems to be better as a splash color to gain access to the really powerful cards it offers, mostly in the sideboard (plague, leyline, thoughtseize, spiritmonger, etc.).

Um... What?

[FoolofaTook]

Whats subpar with massive discard and then ripping apart their deck? You could throw in some creature removal to deal with mass-weeines like Goblins if you want.

Hell, you only need 2-3 Extirpates to GG most Thresh decks.

The fundamental problem with discard is that it can very easily be a useless element in a deck if it's not drawn in context. Discard doesn't help you if you're behind on the board. You'd much rather draw removal or something to put into play in that scenario.

Decks that play 8-12 discard elements get their one or two relevant plays early on and then have a large potential dead draw percentage if the game progresses into the midgame. If they use Pox and Smallpox as part of the discard package then they're a bit better off in terms of relevance but they're also limited in some uses of those draws.

In terms of fast wins black is somewhat lacking in hard hitters unless a significant trade off, like that of Negator, is put into play. Mono-black was a marginal contender back in the 90's because creatures like the Juzam Djinn, Sengir Vampire and Lord of the Pit had some relevance as finishers. Hypnotic Specters, Erg Raiders, Black Knights and Order of the Ebon Hand were early choices in that type of aggro deck and the bigger finishers were available to close things out. These days the finishers of the past are also-rans, with the exception of the Juzam, who is a ridiculously expensive option given current alternatives.

Basically discard adds a level of inconsistency to the draw without having solid options alongside it to exploit the early advantage that it usually provides.

If that basic inconsistency could be resolved (maybe with a pitch spell repertoire that provided turn 6 relevant impact) then the ability to play 19 swamps and 41 spells might again become quite powerful.

[Zach Tartell]

You could splash for Blue and run counters if you really wanted to.

I got killed by undermine at the Virgina event in august. Hippy is a pretty good soft-lock, if you have a counter in hand.

[Bryant Cook]

Black is a dominant color when it comes to combo, look at most storm based combo. The fundamentals of the deck are mostly black.

[Happy Gilmore]

Most of the ideas presented so far suggest splashing other colors to make it good, or rather splash black to make other decks good. It might be worth noting what cards in black are most commonly played in decks with a different main color.

Dark Confidant
Dark Ritual
Cabal Ritual
Infernal Tutor
Duress
Thoughtseize
Cabal Therapy
Dread Return
Ichorid
Bridge From Below
Layline of the Void (stretching it)
Jailer (not yet but I suspect soon)
Extripate (played some)

Thats just a few of them. Now, notice the trends: Cheep Discard/Ritual Effects/Graveyard Hate/Alternate Casting Costs

The last one is the biggest and most influential contribution of black.

[Lego]

Black is a dominant color when it comes to combo, look at most storm based combo. The fundamentals of the deck are mostly black.

Red is exponentially larger than it used to be though. If Menendian manages to come back from his large deficit at the Invitational, RB combo will get another nice addition (RB, Search for a Sorcery, put it in hand?... seems good :smile:)

EDIT: Nevermind, he's out of contention. My point about Red in storm combo still stands. You can almost play completely Red storm combo... Black just seems weak on its own.

[Cavius The Great]

Black doesn't have any enchantment/artifact removal which is the main reason mono black isn't the supreme color. Besides Dystopia and Nevinyral's Disks, blacks only real way to deal with enchantments and artifacts is through splashing green or white, maybe even blue for counters which in itself is still "iffy".

[Galroth]

If that basic inconsistency could be resolved (maybe with a pitch spell repertoire that provided turn 6 relevant impact) then the ability to play 19 swamps and 41 spells might again become quite powerful.


I've been playing with Discard alot, this is an ever relevant issue. Tombstalker is in my opinion, an autoinclude in every Discard deck because he turns all of those early discard plays into a lowered cc for himself. Contagion is interesting, but really just not that great. Other removal is arguably as good or better. Soul Spike is dang cool (if you look this one up, I don't mind, take your time). The problem is you have to pitch 2 cards. Maybe with Confidant and alot of Discard it could be useful, or maybe if black had a useful tutor that didn't involve hellbent, then it would see some play. But neither or those are optimal to my thoughts. Oh well... maybe in time.

@ Cavius The Great - Black has never really had artifact or enchantment removal. While this has always been a setback, I don't think it's what's keeping black down. Beyone Umezawa Jitte, there really aren't that many artifacts that hamper black. Enchantments? There are some really mean ones out there, but again, they just don't see play in Legacy. Plus Discard can usually take care of Artifacts of Enchantments if they're a big concern. Discard is just cheaper than most Artifacts or Enchantments. It's not the same as removal, but it works.

I actually think black is doing alot better in Legacy than it was 3 months ago. Red aggro has a tendency to smash the living crap out of black. It's quicker, and it generally doesn't care about black's disruption half so much as other decks. Even when black had Engineered Plague, game 1 would almost always go to Goblins. Engineered Plague wasn't an auto-win by any means, so that left 2 games for Goblins to get a little lucky or get the nuts. RG Beatz, Angel Stompy, alot of very popular aggro decks are rough for black. With a meta full of more control, combo, and aggro-control than previously, I think black is looking quite well. The splash is a hell of alot more healthy with the introduction of Thoughtseize, and mono-black does have some of the best hate available not to mention a fairly good game against anything non-aggro (accepting f****** 43lands.dec (or so I hear)). Personally, I'm excited.

[Cabal-kun]

The splash is a hell of alot more healthy with the introduction of Thoughtseize, and mono-black does have some of the best hate available not to mention a fairly good game against anything non-aggro (accepting f****** 43lands.dec (or so I hear)). Personally, I'm excited.

From my testing, the matchup against 43Lands is difficult. Thoughtseize and any other discard can become irrelevant very quickly, thanks to Life from the Loam. Creature kill in black is also ineffective, as many of those cards are sorcery speed, and any lost lands can be recovered via Life from the Loam.

[DeathwingZERO]

I would almost disbelieve that Black would have terrible game against a deck almost primarily based on recursion through graveyard methods. Isn't the Loam engine the most explosive ability Lands! has to win with? By what means does Lands! have outs against Planar Void or Leyline?

[FoolofaTook]

Black has never really had artifact or enchantment removal. While this has always been a setback, I don't think it's what's keeping black down.

Engineered Explosives, Nevinyrral's Disk (potentially off of rituals to solve some of the slowness issues), Pithing Needle in the sideboard, there are a bunch of artifact solutions that Black can take advantage of. Also Dystopia in the sideboard (nice against Goyf's too although the opponent often has Mongeese out also) and of course Extirpate.

I see artifacts and enchantments as being a neutral effect on the decision to play mono-Black. The real problems are red aggro/burn and threshold decks that both want more cards in their graveyard and are full of cheap casting threats and cantrips to make discard less relevant. Land-based control like Landstill and 43Lands is also very problematic, because there really is not room in the deck and sideboard for any kind of significant landkill and Standstill works against discard in a big way.