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Finn
10-19-2007, 06:06 PM
Critters
4 Silvergill Adept - thanks, kuja
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Reef Shaman (or Tidal Warrior)
2 Seasinger

Other blue stuff
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Land
4 Rishidan Port
4 Wasteland
6 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

beginning SB
3 Pongify
3 Propaganda
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Rootwater Thief

What it does:
It is more disruptive on mana than Goblins. Add Stifle and Reef Shaman (turn a land into an off color basic on upkeep) to Port and Wasteland, and you have an awful lot of mana disruption. There are 8 creatures that pump everyone. Lord of Atlantis is a Muscle Sliver, only better. Wait until you see how insane Islandwalk is in this meta. And Reejerey is a Warchief, only way, way better. Tap or untap a permanent, are you serious?

Seasinger :)

OK, now include a partial assortment of counterspells, search, and draw. All in one color.

What it does not do:
Well, someone please tell me the downside. I can't see it yet. EDIT: Found it - It sucks against Goblins.

There is just no way I am the only person tooling with this deck. In fact, I will bet that there are people who frequent this website who are playing this and have simply chosen not to post it for secrecy reasons.

Opinions?

Ophidian
10-19-2007, 06:34 PM
Thunderbluff v.7.2?

troopatroop
10-19-2007, 06:45 PM
Thunderbluff v.7.2?

No, it's Dirt v3.1

Soto
10-19-2007, 06:51 PM
Silvergill Adept

Finn
10-19-2007, 07:01 PM
Boy, those are some really useful responses. Thanks for the thought-provoking insight.

I think I will laminate this so I can just reveal it to the next genius who thinks he is clever at my expense.

It really does amaze me how certain personalities come out of the woodwork when they smell fresh meat. Ya know, back when I caught hell for reporting on Dirt, a deck that did things like nearly autowin against certain decks such as Threshold, I figured that eventually the folks who "knew" I was making it up would eventually learn the truth. Some people did.

IBA, for example, went through the trouble of messing with BGW control and quickly came out with a deck of his own, some tournament reports, and statements like "Threshold- Autowin. No, seriously. I know I said Train Wreck was a near autowin, but..." and other similar comments. I assumed that anyone who payed attention would soon figure it out for themselves. But amazingly there are ostensibly repected members of this community who still think they are funny when they mock my observations that have been independently corroborated over and over.

Goog God, ppl. Have some self respect.

etrigan
10-19-2007, 07:17 PM
How has Seasinger been working out for you? Do you ever wish you had another beater?

kicks_422
10-19-2007, 07:17 PM
You're in the Source, dude. Expect stuff like that.

Anyway, I think the deck looks solid on paper. I like the Seasinger, especially in a Thresh-heavy meta. Have you tested this thoroughly? I'm interested in your MU's, though I think you're right - there's no glaring weakness that I can see as of right now.

EDIT: Oh, I think 3 Vials are enough in any deck that doesn't have 30+ creatures in it. Maybe -1 Vial, +1 Jitte?

Xenocide
10-19-2007, 07:31 PM
What are the decks match ups like? Both pre- and post- board? What strategy works against the different DTB's and established decks?

I like the deck idea, however in order to avoid negative comments (like the ones above) you should abstain from using broad statements like "I don't see how this deck could be better," etc. and try to keep your opening post as objective as possible.

Solpugid
10-19-2007, 07:32 PM
I'm not ready to build the deck (although it's a lot less expensive to build than mot decks) but it does seem to at least have potential. Having played merfolk in draft I can confirm the rediculousness of reejery. Using him to untap port or aether vial just seems...ewwww.

The only thing I see, and maybe this is just my narrow thinking right now, is that I'd love to see back to basics in here. You run so many nonbasics that disrupt without it though, so maybe not.

Reef shaman vs tidal warrior: they have very different uses (lackey blocker vs. better attacker) so maybe this is meta dependent.

Do you really need that many lands? I would think dropping two fetches for two more merfolk wouldn't be too bad. Coral trickster can complement the mana denial, but he's probably not good enough. Merfolk looter is always good, if a tad underwhelming. Rootwater diver can rescue jittes and vials from the grave, and reuse tormod's crypt from the board. Vodalian illusionist is decent creature removal...I guess. Eh, just throwing ideas out there.

Finn
10-19-2007, 07:32 PM
Kicks, it is hard for me to test anymore. I have played only a few games - just enough to work out the rough edges. About Aether Vial, you want it in the opening draw, so it is hard to go to three.

etrigan
10-19-2007, 07:34 PM
Merfolk Looter to get rid of extra Vials and help you draw into Jittes?

Ophidian
10-19-2007, 07:37 PM
Hey-- you can't get mad at me cause you typed in the wrong card, I thought you were playing trixie. (you also used the "feels like I'm cheating line") I digress, and back to my original post which did have some merit in regards to your build.

1) I think 4 Stifle main is a must-have to compliment your mana disruption Philosophy.
2) Winter Orb needs to be in the main or the side-- you have awesome synergy with Aether Vial, Daze, Port, and Merrow Reejerey.
3) Also, your manabase seems a bit thin. 8 Fetches and 6 islands? You might want to juxtapose those numbers. (or forgoing Wasteland/Port and going with Back to Basics)

TheMightyQuinn
10-19-2007, 08:22 PM
Have you tried Waterfront Bouncer at all? He seems like a worthy inclusion after having his creature type changed to Merfolk Spellshaper. Seasinger seems neat. How has it been treating you in testing? I like the overall concept.

Iranon
10-19-2007, 09:15 PM
Actually, the deck I would compare this to is Countersliver. 8 Pump creatures, ways to make all our men evasive, similar counter suit and light hand refinement.

It lacks the awesomeness of Crystalline Sliver, but features a much stronger mana base that allows for a mana denial angle... I ran Back to Basics but this looks better.

Do we really need Jitte (hate equipment in a deck without acceleration or creatures that are always evasive/able to win critter fights)?

I liked 2 Achitect's Will in addition to the Tidal Warriors, but I suppose a total of 6 1-mana-creatures could work as well.

Finn
10-19-2007, 09:54 PM
So sorry, folks. I am guilty of posting a deck I have not tested much. Frankly, I figured I could get away with it because the deck isn't particularly original. Lemme show you what I mean.


Also, your manabase seems a bit thin. 8 Fetches and 6 islands? You might want to juxtapose those numbers. (or forgoing Wasteland/Port and going with Back to Basics)Actually I stole it by the numbers from Goblins. And I have tested out the 8/6 plan with other decks. It should not ever be a problem. The more fetches the better with Brainstorm. The one thing I would consider at the moment would be cutting some land and adding Ponder ala Threshold.


How has Seasinger been working out for you? Do you ever wish you had another beater?This part has been really good. I say this because she IS a beater. There are 8 pump effects in this deck. Well, plus Jitte for now.


Actually, the deck I would compare this to is Countersliver. 8 Pump creatures, ways to make all our men evasive, similar counter suit and light hand refinement.Yes. I thought that as well. As such, I wish I had done more testing of Slivers. It would come in handy right about now. As it is, mostly, I just faced it a lot.


Winter Orb needs to be in the main or the side-- you have awesome synergy with Aether Vial, Daze, Port, and Merrow Reejerey.
I don't know about Winter Orb. I mean, there is a lot of mana disruption already. That seems win-more to me. I am oping to keep the deck as aggressive as possible.


Reef shaman vs tidal warrior: they have very different uses (lackey blocker vs. better attacker) so maybe this is meta dependent.I really am only considering what percentage of the field will not be hurt by having a land become and island (as opposed to some other basic land).


Have you tried Waterfront Bouncer at all? He seems like a worthy inclusion after having his creature type changed to Merfolk Spellshaper. Seasinger seems neat. How has it been treating you in testing? I like the overall concept.I have not. How often do you really feel OK about discarding to unsummon in Legacy, though. The guy I want to see in play is Sygg, River Guide. The manabase could easily support White and Jittes could come out in favor of Swords to Plowshares.


I liked 2 Achitect's Will in addition to the Tidal Warriors, but I suppose a total of 6 1-mana-creatures could work as well.Yes, this is true. Initially, I had four Seasingers, and this was necessary. But that was too narrow, IMO. Honestly, so many decks have blue that I expect the Tidal Warriors to be pretty expendible.

-2 Umezawa's Jitte, +2 Stifle seems like a good plan. I am concerned about limited anti-creature stuff, though.

Metaknight
10-19-2007, 11:03 PM
in the limited testing i have with this deck i can say this, i really like it. Vial is absolutly amazing in here and i wouldn't drop them to three, nor would i up the jitte count, two is perfect with the amout of draw you have. Also in the debate between Reef Shamen and Tidal Warrior i would say Shamen all the way, the extra toughness gives it more resilience than the warrior, which helps a lot vs. fast aggro. Over all i realyy enjoy this deck and am planning on actually building it soon.

Phantom
10-20-2007, 12:52 AM
There is just no way I am the only person tooling with this deck. Playing it feels like cheating. In fact, I will bet that there are people who frequent this website who are playing this and have simply chosen not to post it for secrecy reasons.


I have been screwing around with a similar build, although I will freely admit that I didn't think of Reef Shaman or Tidal Warrior (I kind of assumed that every deck that is going to try to block is already running islands). I was running Waterfront Bouncer to mixed results (he was nice when they would sneak something though before I could waste/port them). And Seasinger is just...wow (I was splashing white for plows and running Threads in the board for goyf control).

I've found stifle to be the second best blue card in the deck (behind FoW). I'm at four and it seems unfair. I was playing against Thresh, and he knew I was running this so he kept a three land hand but Stifle + Waste + Port is just a killing. I would cut Dazes for them (although I like Daze a lot here) just because stifles are also so good in the combo matchup (and against Deed which is a bitch).

I put Jitte in. I take Jitte out. I put them back in. I love them, especially when our masses are unblockable, but the deck seems to suffer from the same problem as CounterSliver 1.0: namely that sweepers really hurt us, and Jitte just makes them hurt all the more (this is why I played around with Factories in the Port spot, but it just wasn't worth it). Still, they may be too good to pass up.

I know the deck can splash since Goblins did. Should it? For what color? I tried white for swords which was ok. Black for thoughtcast maybe? And yard hate out of the board seems nice. I really don't know.

Anyway, it's good to see someone else screwing with the deck.

Maveric78f
10-20-2007, 08:23 AM
I don't get the use of Jitte in this deck. I would rather play 2 more seasingers or 2 more land modifiers.

As you play no card advantage card, I don't think that Force of Will is such a good card in your deck. Maybe 2*stifle instead 2 of them and 2 land modifiers.

Winter orb is a very bad idea in a deck where you are playing 4*rishadan port. Running Thorn of amethyst in SB should be a better option as a solution against non creature decks FoW is also obvious in SB if you don't play it MD. And against creature decks, propaganda is your friend.

Eventually I would blindly run this list :

Critters
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Reef Shaman
4 Tidal Warrior
2 Seasinger

Other blue stuff
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Land
4 Rishidan Port
4 Wasteland
8 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

SB
4 Force of Will
4 Propaganda
4 Thorns of Amethyst
3 Tormod's crypt (damn crucible, maybe a bounce would better ?)

Moczoc
10-20-2007, 09:00 AM
My little brother just built a casual merfolk. He doesn't own any Jitte, FoW or Brainstorms, but still it beats like hell. Especially the Thresh-matchup is very good!


Creatures
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
2 Waterfront Bouncer
2 Seahunter
4 Manta Riders
4 Lord of Atlantis
1 Changeling Titan (secret tech with seahunter ;)

Spells
4 Sleight of Hand
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Repeal
2 Disrupt
2 Repulse
4 Daze
2 Zephid's Embrace

Lands
1 Forest
19 Island

Tacosnape
10-20-2007, 09:49 AM
That opening build needs Standstill. And Rootwater Thief.

Standstill is easily supportable in a blue deck with Vial, Port, and Wasteland, and fits the mold pretty well. Rootwater Thief is awesome both due to his evasion abilities and his deck-eating skills. He's also fantastic with Vial, since he's mana-intensive for his abilities and Vial lets you play other Merfolk meanwhile.

Seriously, can't we just call this deck "Merfolk" or "Fish?" Triton's Minions is a retarded name.

Finn
10-20-2007, 11:18 AM
That opening build needs Standstill. And Rootwater Thief.

Standstill is easily supportable in a blue deck with Vial, Port, and Wasteland, and fits the mold pretty well. Rootwater Thief is awesome both due to his evasion abilities and his deck-eating skills. He's also fantastic with Vial, since he's mana-intensive for his abilities and Vial lets you play other Merfolk meanwhile.

Seriously, can't we just call this deck "Merfolk" or "Fish?" Triton's Minions is a retarded name.Perhaps if we add Standstill it could be called Fish, but as it is now, this deck would suck with Standstill. The threats do not come down early enough often enough. Fish is definitely a particular kind of deck (well, a bunch of similar ones), and this one is tribal in theme, so while Fish began as a deck with some merfolk, the name now applies to something else. Or, whatever.

Rootwater Thief is an interesting idea. I don't think it is a maindeck card since it IS mana intensive, and the evasion isn't quite as important with Islandwalk available. Certainly it is a better sb card than Blue Elemental Blast, but I have to stress that the combo matchup seems very strong already for this deck. And that is the natural purpose for the Thief.


My little brother just built a casual merfolk. He doesn't own any Jitte, FoW or Brainstorms, but still it beats like hell. Especially the Thresh-matchup is very good!


Creatures
4 Merrow ReejereyThis does not surprise me. I could go on and on how stupid good Reejerey is.

example: Just by random chance, I played Bane of the Living last night on MWS. On turn four or something, beginning the turn with no creatures in play and three lands, I vialed out Reejerey, played a Tidal Warrior, untapped the Vial, vialed out another Reejerey, played Lord of Atlantis from hand, untapped an Island and the Vial. At this point, there are four unblockable 4/4's in play, and I still had an untapped vial for my Seasinger in hand.


I don't get the use of Jitte in this deck. I would rather play 2 more seasingers or 2 more land modifiers.

As you play no card advantage card, I don't think that Force of Will is such a good card in your deck. Maybe 2*stifle instead 2 of them and 2 land modifiers.I think 2 Stifles for 2 Jittes is the way to go, and I am about to modify the opening post to reflect this. But then you are leaning heavily on the Seasingers unless you side in Pongify or Boomerang or something.

The deck has Silvergill Adept for card advantage to help with FoW. But it doesn't matter anyway. You can't seriously think FoW does not belong in the deck.

Propaganda seems worth investigating for the SB.

Maveric78f
10-20-2007, 11:21 AM
Then standstill to support FoW ?

I've just played against a rebel deck playing landstill and I won through landstill. Too good.

Cavius The Great
10-20-2007, 12:12 PM
I think Merfolk.dec just might be the new goblins judging from the list. Do you guys agree?

ebbitten
10-20-2007, 12:19 PM
I for one don't.
This deck is incredibly solid but lacks goblins ability to deal with random crap nearly as well. Solid old school aggro decks will consistently beat up on this one if it can't get some of its muscle merfolk out quick enough.

Cavius The Great
10-20-2007, 12:24 PM
The only real weakness I see is the lack of creature removal. Finn, has this ever been an issue for you?

Has splashing white for StP ever cross your mind?

Zork
10-20-2007, 12:36 PM
Seasinger is like creature removal.

I ran that in a transformational SB back when flash was legal and it seriously won the game against thresh/fish when it hit the board. My only wish would be that you had a sac outlet for it so you could clear their board, but that would be a little too situational.

Overall I like the concept a lot, and I might have to try this list or a similar one out.

BreathWeapon
10-20-2007, 12:56 PM
Have you tried dropping the entire LD scheme and just playing a pseudo Counter Sliver deck with Standstill, Counterspell and Umezawa's Jitte backing the deck up? Since you're playing an army of Island Walking creatures that can keep the opponent's threats locked down, I think you could just focus on slipping threats thru' with Curiosity and under Standstill to crush aggro-control and control any way. You also get the added benefit of playing more 1 and 2cc Merfolk that can establish a clock and reduce the land count.

Regardless, it's a really refreshing deck.

Edit: After a search, I was reminded how much Merfolk suck. The next best Merfolk I could find cc to power/toughness wise was River Merfolk and Sygg, River Guide (since he's more or less your "Crystalline Sliver," I think he's worth splashing for if you get Swords to Plowshares out of the deal).

etrigan
10-20-2007, 02:04 PM
I think Merfolk.dec just might be the new goblins judging from the list. Do you guys agree?


Why? Because it's another Tribal deck? Or because it has incredible threat density and can win turn 3?

Lemuria
10-20-2007, 05:30 PM
I have to say that from all new tribal decks, this one interested me the most. It has md answers to stop combo and a really nice pack of aggro that can overrun others Aggro, Aggro/Control decks.

But isn't 4 daze and 4 stifle too much, Finn? Perhaps you could cut one of each, maybe some other 2 slots and add Ponder, or even MD Rootwater Thief. What do you think?

Iranon
10-21-2007, 07:03 AM
A new Goblins this isn't. There's a huge difference between 4 1-drops that allow us to cheat on mana and 8, especially since Lackey was the more gamebreaking one. This also affects how early we can use our mana denial lands as such. This isn't as good at winning out of nowhere... in many respects it's a very poor man's goblin.

Having said that, the countermagic we can run is a big plus.

Maveric78f
10-21-2007, 11:03 AM
After testing, the deck behaves very well. As everyone tries to compare it to Goblins, I can make the comparison :

++++
* does not die to pyroclasm as easily as gob
* great evasion
* better mana disruption
* a very good answer to tarmogoyf in the name of seasinger
* a better combo matchup
* counterspells
* monocolor
* lower curve

----
* no tutor
* less tribal
* best pool of creature
* best goldfish performance
* only 4 ways to cheat with mana

BreathWeapon
10-21-2007, 04:28 PM
There's no point in comparing Merfolk to Goblins, what people should be doing is comparing Merfolk to Slivers, because I can't see a reason I would run Slivers over Merfolk after testing similar shells for each deck. Playing 8 "Muscle Slivers" that give your deck evasion and tempo to boot and playing 4 Sygg, River Guide that turn your entire army into "Blazing Knights" is pretty hot. I think you can cut the Rishadan Ports and still play an effective LD plan, so that should cut down on the annoying Goblins references.

from Cairo
10-21-2007, 05:12 PM
Yea this deck is not goblins by a long shot.

It's creatures are significantly weaker when compared 1 vs 1, it has no Lackey, no Fanatic, no Siege Gang. That said I think it's an ok deck- it seems pretty comparable to Slivers or to a lesser degree the Crystalline Elves builds being discussed... in terms of having a good 1 drop that complements the theme, in this case Reef Shaman or Tidal Warrior, 2 sets of muscles at its disposal, a few solid creatures with good effects (like Winged and Hibernation in Slivers or Wren's Run Vanqisher and Herald in Elves)...

From limited playing around with it, the right call definitely seems heavy mana disruption- 4 Wastelands, 8-12 Ports (Reef Shaman!! and to a lesser degree given Thresh- Tidal Warrior), 4 Stifles, 3-4 Dazes... I think Force of Will is too much card disadvantage to warrant main deck room, maybe worth it vs combo, maybe something like Disrupt would make more sense.

Maveric78f's list a few posts up looks spot on for what I would be playing around with.

Phantom
10-21-2007, 11:01 PM
How can people question FoW here? As if the card weren't good enough on it's own virtues, this deck puts a ton of permanents on the board and sweepers like Wrath and Deed will wreck it.

Jitte might not belong here, but I really think it does after some extremely light testing. The decks creatures are tiny, and never really grow to Goyfs size. What they do have going for them is evasion in the form of islandwalk (and Jitte doesn't really NEED evasion) and Vial tends to keep our mana open for easy casting and equipping. Lastly, it's one more Needle target that isn't Vial, Port, or Seasinger.

Also, I love Standstill but am extremely skeptical about it here, at least in current builds. Without a Vial, it seems like getting board advantage would take a damn long time, and be uncertain without manlands a plenty. I guess the deck could be tweaked to fit in that strategy, but right now the mana denial madness seems more promising to me.

Maveric78f
10-22-2007, 02:33 AM
How can people question FoW here? As if the card weren't good enough on it's own virtues, this deck puts a ton of permanents on the board and sweepers like Wrath and Deed will wreck it.

I can't believe you tested the deck to post that. One of the best point of the deck is that, your opponent should never be able to play 4CC cards, and even less wth 2 colored mana. However about the use of FoW, I'm still wondering. as standstill definitely belongs to the deck *4, I now think that we can afford it, but there's a lack of room now


Jitte might not belong here, but I really think it does after some extremely light testing. The decks creatures are tiny, and never really grow to Goyfs size. What they do have going for them is evasion in the form of islandwalk (and Jitte doesn't really NEED evasion) and Vial tends to keep our mana open for easy casting and equipping. Lastly, it's one more Needle target that isn't Vial, Port, or Seasinger.

I'm quite sure that jitte is poor in the deck except in order to remove your opponent's one. Tarmogoyf is not a problem in its own, you will swarm it quite easily and if not seasinger may do the job.


Also, I love Standstill but am extremely skeptical about it here, at least in current builds. Without a Vial, it seems like getting board advantage would take a damn long time, and be uncertain without manlands a plenty. I guess the deck could be tweaked to fit in that strategy, but right now the mana denial madness seems more promising to me.

Our creatures are cheap and your opponent is not supposed to know that you don't run manlands (if you want to be sure run 1*mishra and you'll maybe feel more comfortable in playing standstill with an empty board). Sometimes I regret not playing tidal warrior over reef shaman (my list evoluated) just to have a beater and be able to play standstill, but that's not often. I prefer a 0/2 body that a 1/1 usually.

I post my new and tested list.

Critters
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Reef Shaman
3 Seasinger

Other blue stuff
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Land
4 Rishidan Port
4 Wasteland
7 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

SB
4 Force of Will
4 Propaganda
3 Thorns of Amethyst
1 Seasinger
3 Powder keg / echoing truth

I'am not completely convinced with thorns/powder keg and echoing truth. Stifle has not been that hot neither. Keeping 1 blue mana open is problematic in early games and stifle in late games are far more situationnal (for deed and explosives mainly). Daze or thorns of amethyst are not really combo with reef shaman neither. Btw, I wonder if explosives would not be better than keg because reef shaman can help to make it @2 or more.

I'm not convinced with Merrow Reejerey neither because the tapping or untapping does not work through vial (I mean that it does not trigger when you vial in a merfolk). It's an expensive and limited lord of atlantis to my eyes. The +1/+1 is golden though, I admit to play around engineered plague and pyroclasm.

Seasinger is great but I rarely face creature decks these last days on MWS so it was quite often useless. As being our only creature removal and as being sensible to creature removal, I really think that playing it *3 MD +1 SB is the least.

The week slots of my build (I don't plan to cut any of these but to reduce their count to 3 or 2) :
Merrow Reejerey
Brainstorm
Stifle
Daze

The cards I'm thinking about in the MD or SB :
Tidal Warrior ***
FoW *****
Aquitect's Will ***
Merfolk Traders *
Seahunter ***
Streambed Aquitects ***
Tidal Courier ***
Vodalian Illusionist ****
Whirlpool Rider / Whirlpool Warrior **

Iranon
10-22-2007, 03:07 AM
I too think Force shouldn't be cut. Not for the sweepers - Mana Denial and Stifle should work perfectly fine there.
In a format sporting combo decks that go off turn 1 and decks that have a decent chance to kill turn 2 with backup, I'll run Force if I can at all support it.

I think you're slightly overdoing it with the mana denial. I would definitely run less lands; unlike Goblins we don't ever have to worry about hardcasting 4- and 5-drops, we can find extra mana with a brainstorm and we don't refill our hand to use excess mana for second win in the lategame. I'm also averse to a full set of Stifle/Daze as multiple of those can suck royally.

Maveric78f
10-22-2007, 03:16 AM
What do you think about submerge in SB or even in MD ? It's a very good creature removal, as you can play it in resp to a fetch.

About the splashes, 1 only is possible imo: white. It would provide, ghostly prison in addition to propaganda in SB, maybe Sygg, but it's a very expensive ability, Galina's Knight, surely disenchant.

Surgespanner and Waterfront Bouncer have to be added to the above "need testing" list.

Phantom
10-22-2007, 10:58 AM
I can't believe you tested the deck to post that. One of the best point of the deck is that, your opponent should never be able to play 4CC cards, and even less wth 2 colored mana. However about the use of FoW, I'm still wondering. as standstill definitely belongs to the deck *4, I now think that we can afford it, but there's a lack of room now


I did test against Landstill, and there are times when you can deny them 4 mana, but if you think that is 100%, you're fooling yourself. We run 12 denial pieces (and Stifle is pulling double duty here) and half their deck is freaking land (and Loam/Crucible is no picnic). They WILL hit Deed, and they WILL hit Wrath (not every game, but they will). Goblins had a great plan of denying them mana and winning before they could sweep, but this deck really doesn't win that fast, especially through all their spot removal, so Force is a nice backup.

Frankly, I'm not even sure it matters. If the card read "can't target Wrath or Deed" it would still be worth running.

Right now I'm Pondering squeezing Ponder in as well as Brainstorm. The reason is that Vial is just so damn good I figure that will give me a solid chance at dropping one by turn two.

Finn
10-22-2007, 11:59 AM
Phantom, I have done this. I am very pleased with it. Current build:

4 Aether Vial

2 Reef Shaman
2 Tidal Warrior
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Seasinger

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
4 Wasteland
3 Rishidan Port

Ehh, thirteen blue sources is a little light with Lord of Atlantis around, but between Ponder and Brainstorm it has not been a problem yet.

I am really enjoying:
turn 1
Island, Vial, Daze
turn 2
Island, Stifle the fetchland

Media314r8
10-22-2007, 12:41 PM
I've built and trested Merfolk ever since I saw the lorwyn spoiler for Silvergil adept. I definatly believe Vial is an auto-in, but I'd also like to point out that goblins can up vial as they still have other ways of playing guys from their hand with lackey. Goblins has card advantage is matron and ringleader, and merfolk have no such (playable) creatures. My opinion is that vial should remain at two, with only the best merfolk two drops run in the main. I chose to splash for Dark confidant (also 2cc) for card advantage and vodalian zombie. (wrecks UG thresh, and UGR if counter-top is set up)

Having the ability to give an opponent an island doesn't seem too relevant, as against most non fish/thresh decks, you will either have an empty field (ala combo) or have to kill their bigger dudes rather than try to race with evasion.

Reerjoy seems wholly weaker than LoA, as his ability only triggers when you PLAY a merfolk spell, and vial works against him, as you want to vial in guys without having them countered. If it was a CIP effect, I would mod my deck to fit him for the simulated (ice) effect of fire/ice in tapping an opponent's attacker on his turn. Sorcery speed free twiddles don't seem like good enough reasons to play this guy, and have the cc of your guys over 2.

Jitte allows for the deck to beat goblins pre-boards, as well as providing virtual card-advantage. E-Plague helps even more after boards, with dystopia helping with the thresh/meathooks matchup. I would say the black splash is superior to the white as it offers a better matchup vs combo, goblins, and thresh.

I also believe that the counter-top combo is superior to any other disruption sweet, as CB for two wrecks most decks in the meta, and this decks sports 26 cards at 2cc, so hitting with balance is ~50% even w/o top. Bob abuses top, and brainstorm benefits both. With the possibility of outright winning games, I would say Top+balance > stifle+daze in most cases.

All said, here's my list.

//Creatures//
4 x Dark Confidant
4 x Silvergil Adept
4 x Lord of Atlantis
4 x Rootwater Thief
4 x Vodalian Zombie

//Disruption//
3 x Counterbalance
4 x Force of Will

//Card draw//
4 x Brainstorm

//Artifacts//
4 x AEther Vial
4 x Sensei's Divining Top
3 x Umezawa's Jitte

//Lands//
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
4x Underground Sea
2x Swamp
2x Island
4x Wasteland

//SB//
4x Cashseize
4x Engineered Plague
4x Seasinger
3x Dystopia

BreathWeapon
10-22-2007, 05:10 PM
Arguably the most overrated card I've found in this archetype in order,

1) Aether Vial, I'd play with Merrow Reejerey before I cut Merrow Reejerey for his dissynergy with Aether Vial. Aether Vial is the card that has dissynergy with Merrower Reejerey and not the other way around, and I haven't found a reason to "cheat" costs on a flat curve when hard casting Merfolk with a Merrow Reejerey on the board can untap a land and "cheat" costs that way.

2) Standstill, with out Aether Vial and Mishra's Factory, Standstill is awful.

3) Curiosity, just splash for Dark Confidant instead.

4) Rishadan Port, the deck has enough mana denial with Wasteland, Stifle and Merrow Reejerey as it is, and I'd rather sit back on Counterspell mana than fiddle with my opponent's lands.

5) Reef Shaman and Tidal Warriors, while they're very synergistic, they're also very unnecessary. You can do a lot of damage to the opponent with just Wasteland and Stifle, and as long as you are playing Umezawa's Jitte to establish a clock or Counterspell to protect your board, you can bring the game home against control. Against aggro, you want to take them on toe to toe with 8 pump creatures and Sygg, River Guide instead of racing with evasion. You aren't faster than other aggro decks, so racing is often a moot point.

6) Ponder, frankly, you don't want to drop your guard with Stifle, Spellsnare or Counterspell for a tempo sink in a tempo deck.

7) Balance/Top, with out 8+ cantrips and/or Trinket Mage it's inconsistent against aggro-control and worthless against aggro, which is where you need the most help.

8) Mono-U, you can easily afford to splash a color and both white and black have a lot to offer.

Phantom
10-22-2007, 10:31 PM
@Finn: Looks pretty solid. I haven't done enough testing to perfect the number of everything but 3 Port/Stifle/Ponder seems solid as they can clog an opening hand.

@Breathweapon: I appreciate the response and would always prefer opinions over waffling that doesn't help at all. That being said, let's tangle, lol:

1) I disagree. I do agree that talk of cutting Merrow Reejerey is just crazy. Even without the Twiddle ability, he's a crusade on a stick that we need to pump our teeny fellas. That being said you CANNOT compare their acceleration abilities. Vial lets you cheat an insane amount of mana while keeping your lands open for Stifles, Porting, and even the occasional counter hardcast (or just casting another Merfolk or more dig). Plus, I don't really see a dis-synergy here as Vial lets you choose if you want the twiddle effect or not (by just hardcasting it) and Vial lets you do insane things like play uncounterable creatures for no mana at instant speed. I've actually been against Vial in most Fish builds, but I really think it fits well here.

2) I'm with you on this that Standstill needs manlands like in Blue Skies and I'm not ready to drop Waste or Port for Factories yet. Without manlands we are asking to get caught with a Standstill down and no board advantage, which can really suck as it makes our dig worthless with the other deck sculpts a perfect hand (which is especially bad news against combo).

3) Did someone suggest Curiosity? After I search I found out it was you. And you suggested Standstill. I'm confused... Anyway, I think I need to start a thread called "Why Curiosity isn't playable in Legacy" so clearly I agree with your latest sentiment.

4) I'm against you on this one. Decks in the current meta were built to withstand 8 mana denial effects. I love Port against Thresh as it lets me limit their access to green mana for their sorcery speed creatures (often this makes their green source useful once). This is even better when combined with stifling their fetches to go get green mana as they often run very few green producing lands, and even less that are non wasteable. I also am in love with the synergy Port has with Vial. I particularly love tapping down Thresh's removal color and dropping a Lord of Atlantis to make my army bigger and unblockable for at least a turn. Lastly, Port is a fantastic card against Landstill.

5) I wouldn't replace either of these guys, but if I were going to it would probably be with a 1cc fella to keep the curve solid. I personally like their incredible synergy with the deck (especially Seasinger). Counterspell seems like a terrible idea in the current meta (too slow vs. Combo and too mana intensive for even Thresh to run which has a lower curve and no Port to manage), and while I like Spell Snare, I think Daze and Force are better here. Sygg, River Guide is an interesting idea, but completely unplayable without Vial. With Vial it might fall under the danger of cool things, and doesn't help us with our sweeper problem, but Vialing this guy in and giving something protection in response to things makes me salivate.

6) No one is running Snare or CSpell that I can tell, but it is a solid point. Frankly, I don't care because the amount of starting hands with both Ponder and Stifle (currently 3 ofs) are going to be minuscule, and Pondering turn 2 isn't the end of the world. Plus, with fetches being blown later than turn one Ponder can actually help you find useful Stifles. That said, I wouldn't argue too much with anyone that cut Ponder, but right now I'm liking it.

7) I'm with you here. It's tough to rule out Countertop completely because of it's sheer power though.

8) I'm still on the fence here. A lot of decks have jumped on the Stifle + Waste bandwagon and splashing opens us up to that. Black or white seem the most obvious and helpful, although I think Confidant loses some of his appeal without Jitte.

Anyway, would love to hear some more thoughts from anyone.

BreathWeapon
10-22-2007, 10:59 PM
Yes, I suggested both Standstill and Curiosity, since both cards call back to the days of PTW's Fish decks. I had to play with both of them before I could dismiss them, and while I think Standstill still has some potential, Curiosity just sucks period.

If you are going for the heavier mana denial theme, I think you want either Rishadan Port or Reef Shamans but not necessarily both. I usually just use mana denial as a transitional tool into Counterspell, but play styles are going to differ here.

Sygg, River Guide isn't completely unviable with out Aether Vial, if all Sygg, River Guide does is absorb Swords to Plowshares he's done his job. I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on Aether Vial, I think you can play the deck either way, but if I were going to play Aether Vial I would want to play it with Standstill and Mishra's Factory to absolutely break it.

Maveric78f
10-23-2007, 02:54 AM
Yesterday, I tried a white splash (clearly the best imo) in order to play a good goblin SB, as it's the main bad MU. My SB became filling slots of MD (1*stifle, 2*seasinger, 1*daze, 2*reejerey) and 9 items for goblin MU (3*propaganda, 3*ghostly prison, 3*galina knight). I did not have the opportunity to test against goblins, but actually, my main concern was to decide if the other MUs were still good. I played several fish decks (no green as far as I could see) and monoblack control decks (there are a lot of them on MWS, I just wonder why). Both are still very positive, as vial cheats the first and nothing is as good as stealing an opponent's dark confidant and as standstill completely negates the discard of the second.
It's true that I only randomly succeed in manashorting my opponent, but even when I fail (for instance against MBC), I still have such a card advantage that I overwhelm my opponent.
By the way, I included 3*faerie conclave in order to improve the range of use of standstill.
It appeared also in my testing that Reejerey is also very important in order to take advantage of a weak standstill (ie without vial in play and an opponent deciding to stall). Indeed when stalling you lose the benefit of your mana disruption but 2*reejerey enables you to play all your creatures in hand as soon as you have 6+available mana and you can be quite confidant in attacking for the win on the turn after if you can protect your guys (or play another standstill).

My testing was done with this :

Creatures :
Critters
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
2 Merrow Reejerey
4 Reef Shaman
2 Seasinger

Other blue stuff
3 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Land
4 Rishidan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Faerie conclave
1 Plains (maybe another tundra is better)
1 Tundra

SB
3 Propaganda
2 Seasinger
2 Reejerey
1 Stifle
1 Daze
3 Ghostly Prison
3 Galina's Knight

The changes I would do from this list :
-1 conclave
-1 plains
+1 tundra
+1 Reejerey

The things I'll try next :
-3 daze
-4 reef shaman
+3 Steambed Aquitects (in order to have islands for seasinger)
+3 Vodalian Illusionnist
+1 Reejerey

Finn
10-24-2007, 02:18 PM
OK boys. I got around to doing some real testing. Here is my analysis.

deck used:

4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Reef Shaman
2 Seasinger
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Aether Vial
3 Rishidan Port
4 Wasteland
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

SB
3 Pongify
3 Propaganda
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Rootwater Thief
1 Stifle

The High Tide, Belcher and TES matchups are all predictably excellent. I have Belcher made, and played this one the most. I was able to stymie my opponent in the vast majority of games. Biggest problem with this matchup: holding a sorcery speed effect on turn 1 AND a Stifle, AND no countermagic. This is not a problem if you know the deck you are facing, since you can simply wait a turn (though you have now done nothing on turn 1 if he doesn't go off). It comes up only occasionally, but it is annoying. Otherwise, you have all the tools you could ask for.

The matchup versus board control is not quite as good. The land destruction is at its best here. Hands with a Stifle and a Wasteland are golden. If you land an early Reef Shaman as well, you will be way ahead on tempo, and can usually ride that to victory with only a few creatures. Force of Will is a bit weak here, and I was wishing for more card advantage in every game I lost. Daze, is similarly bad later in the game. The deck could use something like Ancestral Vision (Not Standstill) IMO to strengthen this matchup.

The matchup versus graveyard stuff like Ichy and Breakfast have been good, but not great. Actually, I have not lost to Ichy yet. But the games have been hard-fought. Breakfast has been hard as well. A resolved Seasinger is essentially game, but damnit if they don't get plenty of disruption before that time.

The aggro matchup is atrocious. BGW aggro and even zoo, and Elves have all been disappointing. Bleedin' Dark Confidant is a killer. Jitte hurts so bad. I played against Death and Taxes online, MY OWN DAMNED DECK, and he stomped me. I kept feeling like I was not getting the good stuff from the deck. But I know what that really means. The deck is having trouble with opposing aggro, plain and simple. And it kills me to have to make adjustments for these archetypes since I know many of them will not make it to top8 very often. So what should be done?

The good:
Reef Shaman is a better choice than Tidal Warrior in most cases. Keep him.

The Land Destruction suite is fantastic in general. Best part of the deck.

Reejerey is just fine with Vial. As often as you wish you could vial in a guy to untap something, you get to play a dude and untap the Vial for buttloads of mana. A word on this...This deck seems to be slow out of the box, but then on turn 4 or 5, it explodes with creatures - big ones. My opponents tend to be unprepared for 9 damage unblockable. It really helps. Reejerey is a big reason why.

The bad:
Rootwater Thief was almost completely insignificant. One time I went looking for Haunting Echoes to nail down a victory. But that was all.

Ponder is very good. But I want more cards! I say we go with Ancestral Vision over Ponder in the main.

The deck is missing something. I get bottled up by stupid situations too often. It isn't as frustrating as Thresh, and not fast enough to keep the opponents playing catch-up.

ebbitten
10-24-2007, 04:26 PM
I too have found the aggro matchups very very lacking. This has been a fairly glaring issue in my testing, seeing as most of my testing is on MWS where everyone is using an aggro deck. I'm seriously considering maindecking threads of disloyalty, seeing as its a HUGE tempo boost and will stall this deck into all the pump it needs.

Maveric78f
10-25-2007, 03:17 AM
Strange. I found that except for goblins because of protected blue pilly, the aggro MU was very good and the reasons were that my creatures are very quickly as big if not bigger than my opponent's, and that my creatures will eventually get an evasion and I'll be able to alpha strike more efficiently than my opponent.

electrolyze
10-25-2007, 03:49 AM
i played yesterday with my casual merfolk deck that is really not as good as this one, against goblins and won 2 games out of 4 so i think this deck has a decent aggro mu. the only thing you have to do is pump your merfolk and beat harder then your opponent.

noobslayer
10-25-2007, 07:53 AM
Your curve seems varied enough to support Engineered Explosives somewhere on the list. If you are exploring splashes, there's always green for Krosan Grip, and uh... tarmogoyf...

Media314r8
10-25-2007, 10:52 AM
i played yesterday with my casual merfolk deck that is really not as good as this one, against goblins and won 2 games out of 4 so i think this deck has a decent aggro mu. the only thing you have to do is pump your merfolk and beat harder then your opponent.

pump your merfolk and beat faster than them??? Vs Goblins and PILEDRIVER?!?! Unless you're playing jitte (which you should be) racing goblins with mono-blue (non-faerie stompy) seems utterly impossible. Pics or it didn't happen.

electrolyze
10-25-2007, 10:55 AM
i was indeed playing jitte:laugh:

Finn
10-29-2007, 10:36 AM
I have been playing Ancestral Vision in this deck as I suggested. I like it a lot so far, but I have found that I am wanting creature removal even moreso now since the card advantage comes after the point of countering said spell. The splash is looking inevitable.

Maveric78f
10-29-2007, 10:48 AM
I tested a lot the splashes and I never wanted any removal or even bouncers. I don't like ancestral vision, it can be stifled or counterspelled 4 turns later. Standstill is so huge in this deck. It's one of the rare decks where standstill can be played efficiently on turn 2 (turn1 vial, turn2 stifle is already game against most of the field, only lackey ruins it).

Benie Bederios
10-29-2007, 12:03 PM
Has anyone tried Mask of Memory. It's quite cheap and quite hard to kill( as in untouched by creature removal.) I could see this list with 3 Masks and a Sword of Fire and Ice.
Dunno, maybe it's the carddraw your looking for, if not ... ignore this post:tongue:

BB

Finn
10-29-2007, 01:08 PM
Wow. Maveric, I can't believe you and I are playing with the same cards. We disagree on many of the major points here. I am seeing opposing critters as a problem. In particular, Mangara, Dark Confidant and Grim Lavamancer have been hard on me. And I have not been able to jump ahead of opponents like you seem to be. My offense, when not aided by Vial, has been slow. This is the reason I liked Vision over Standstill. I never seem to be ahead until I have the card count to pull it off. Reejerey has been stellar for me, but you don't seem to like it. He lets me explode after I have disrupted the opponent fr a few turns. This doesn't add up.

Iranon
10-29-2007, 01:35 PM
I'm very unconvinced about adding additional techs to the deck.

Half the deck consists of tribal synergies, meaning we want to run as many playable merfolk as possible.

The other half, apart from the obligatory Forces, consists of Mana Denial from Hell. Wasteland, Port, Stifle and Reef Shaman all in one deck is downright cruel. Daze is a Sinkhole you don't have to pay for if your opponent tries to play around it, and an efficient catch-all answer if they don't.

Sure, it would be possible to make room for Jittes, a 2+2 Countertop, Standstills, removal or whatever... but at the expense of the things that make the deck work in the first place. If we wanted those techs, I feel this is the wrong shell.

BreathWeapon
10-29-2007, 03:12 PM
I think you have to use Umezawa's Jitte, it's the only card that really puts you over the top against other aggro decks, and it's just god damn brutal against aggro-control and control.

4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Silvergail Adept
4 Reef Shaman
2 Seasinger
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Aether Vial
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
7 Islands

This is holding up well, free counters backed with mana disruption will carry the deck into the mid or even the late game and Aether Vial will let the deck cast its creatures and equip an Umezawa's Jitte by turn 3. Rishadan Port and Ponder aren't good enough, don't bother.

Cyrus
10-29-2007, 04:12 PM
I'd just like to add that this list top8ed Ancient Memory Convention No. 29 Legacy Tournament Akihabara, Japan October 28, 2007

#8 Shirasawa Yuday
Main:
20 Snow-Covered Island

3 Tideshaper Mystic
4 Tidal Warrior
4 Manta Riders
1 Merfolk of the Pearl Trident
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Sunken City
4 Unstable Mutation
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Force of Will


Sideboard:
4 Threads of Disloyalty
4 Null Rod
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Back to Basics
2 Chill


But if you take a look at the winner's deck...it was the most weird sligh list I've ever seen.
Sorry for my crappy english :smile:


(Decklists from the event: http://f18.aaa.livedoor.jp/~nameless/AMC/AMC_29th_E.html)

Duckphat_pie
10-29-2007, 04:17 PM
has anyone tried running some bounce with this deck? I think that a couple boomerangs might help to act as temporary creature removal, and still fits in with the whole theme of disrupting mana-base/tempo.

You also wouldn't have to splash a color either. just wondering

Illissius
10-29-2007, 06:14 PM
I'd run Waterfront Bouncer. What about swapping the whole mana denial package for a set of Back to Basics (awesome Reejerey synergy), freeing up room for other things?

Nihil Credo
10-29-2007, 06:26 PM
Or Waterfront Bouncer, conveniently a Merfolk. If the deck is fast enough, you can just sacrifice your hand to keep the board clear while you swing for the kill. I haven't tested the deck, so I don't know if it is fast enough.

Maveric78f
10-30-2007, 03:54 AM
Wow. Maveric, I can't believe you and I are playing with the same cards. We disagree on many of the major points here. I am seeing opposing critters as a problem. In particular, Mangara, Dark Confidant and Grim Lavamancer have been hard on me. And I have not been able to jump ahead of opponents like you seem to be. My offense, when not aided by Vial, has been slow. This is the reason I liked Vision over Standstill. I never seem to be ahead until I have the card count to pull it off. Reejerey has been stellar for me, but you don't seem to like it. He lets me explode after I have disrupted the opponent fr a few turns. This doesn't add up.

Well, I did not have to face Managara or grim lavamancer in my testing but they can simply be Forced (Mangara is often followed by vial, but vial needs absolutely to be Forced if you can) or stifled (Karakas or the 3/2 flying bouncer in the exemple of Mangara).

Dark confidant is really not a problem. Why ? Because I play them myself, because it hurts my opponent, because standstill does quite the same (no attack but no life loss) without being "removable".

I agree about Reejerey, I went down to 2 and at some point I noticed that I could play as many merfolk as I wanted as soon as I had 2 Reejerey into play and that's very good in order to win 1 turn after my opponent cracks the standstill. It can also remove a blocker and helps the alpha strike almost as much as the lord. Right now I'm at 3 and the deck performs very well (close to 100%) against the non-gob random decks I encounter on MWS. I still have the 4th Reejerey in SB and I enter it almost at each game 2, for several reasons : either I don't need to transform my oppoenent's lands into islands because he already plays some or I can't afford to play seasinger with only 4 lands transformer (which I keep in for alpha strikes with lord). Another reason is that the +1/+1 boost is very important on game 2 when pyroclam and engineered plagues show up.

The main painful creatures seem to be the utility ones with a small body in the order :
- lackey
- grim lavamancer
- mangara (even if it requires a lot of things : karakas, vial and no stifle in my hand)
- dark confidant, even if I had never real troubles with him

Vendetta could be good at dealing with that or maybe a charm (Piracy Charm which is very versatile, even quite good against combo).


Has anyone tried Mask of Memory.
I did not. The fact is that our creatures are not that often unblockable. I usually wait late turns to alpha strike. I really think that standstill is better though.


Half the deck consists of tribal synergies, meaning we want to run as many playable merfolk as possible.

The other half, apart from the obligatory Forces, consists of Mana Denial from Hell. Wasteland, Port, Stifle and Reef Shaman all in one deck is downright cruel. Daze is a Sinkhole you don't have to pay for if your opponent tries to play around it, and an efficient catch-all answer if they don't.

Sure, it would be possible to make room for Jittes, a 2+2 Countertop, Standstills, removal or whatever... but at the expense of the things that make the deck work in the first place. If we wanted those techs, I feel this is the wrong shell.

I removed the half of mana denial in order to make card advantage (confidant + standstill) and keep MD answers to combo (FoW + Stifle). The rest is brainstorm + tribal.


I think you have to use Umezawa's Jitte, it's the only card that really puts you over the top against other aggro decks, and it's just god damn brutal against aggro-control and control.
It's usually too slow against aggro decks that matter (Gob) because it is going to deal with your creatures and your mana base as you are building your jitte-wearer. Against aggro-control it is simply not needed because it is already a piece of cake. Give me your goyf / Let me draw 3 is too much for them. Their only threat is counterbalance but it's negated by a first turn vial. Against control and combo jitte sucks.


I'd just like to add that this list top8ed Ancient Memory Convention No. 29 Legacy Tournament Akihabara, Japan October 28, 2007
I don't want to look too pretentious but I really think that your list could be by far optimized. As well as most of the decks that did top8.

I have seen on a french site that you won the MU against Life-combo (Daru + en-kor + diamond valley) and it is very surprising to me.


Waterfront Bouncer
I really want to try him since a long time but I never did and one have to admit that it's awful against gob and according to my testing gob is really the number 1 predator of the deck.

Cyrus
10-30-2007, 04:25 PM
Thats not my decklist, I just found it here in the Historical Top8s Thread in DTB Section. And I'd love to read that site.

Finn
11-02-2007, 10:10 AM
So I have been practicing some. I notice myself holding my beaters until I am reasonably certain I can resolve one (I have seen FoW once and I have a fourth mana, for example) if I don't have a vial. Until that point I tend to leave mana open for Stifle, Brainstorm, Port, whatever - rather than commit all my mana to something Like Reejerey.

Question: Is this a holdover from my days of counterspell ph3ar or is it smart playing against Threshold?

Maveric78f
11-13-2007, 06:33 PM
I finally decided myself to make a report of the Tournament I did last week end. I finished 10th on something like 45-50 persons with a record of 4-2. I could be upset with this average performance but I completely messed up in a game that I should have won and therefore go for a third game that I would maybe have won, and I did not face the best deck of the moment which is also the most played and which is also my best MU.

First, my list :
// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [B] Island (2)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [A] Underground Sea
2 [R] Tropical Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
3 [FE] Seasinger
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [TSB] Lord of Atlantis
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [LOR] Silvergill Adept
4 [LOR] Merrow Reejerey

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [LOR] Aquitect's Will

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FE] Seasinger
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [SC] Stifle
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [US] Planar Void

If the shop organizing the tourney had an additional planar void, I would have run no seasinger in SB and 4 Planar Void (I did my testing with 4 propaganda in SB instead of planar void). Aside from this, I played the deck I wanted to.

Yes, I know, I splashed for Tarmogoyf, should I call my deck dark merfolgoyf ? The black splash is more for the SB options than for dark confidant which is fair, or even very good but standstill would be great too in its place. My curve is very bad (only vial castable on first turn). I don't know what to do. I really think that aquitect's will is better than any 1CC merfolk creature, and playing seasinger with no way to transform an opponent's land into an island looks stupid. The rest of the slots are just impossible to remove.

About the MUs I tested alone with 2 instances of MWS, first the good one against Ugw threshold with MD explosives, stifle, coutnertop and Threads but nothing really relevant in SB except additional copies of threads and counterbalance (no needle for instance). It's not a list I built myself for the testing. It's a list that performed quite well in a recent tourney in France. Here are the results, I hope it's going to be readable :

................I play............I draw...............%
preside....8.........2........8..........6..........68,57%
postside...9........1.........4.........5
Total.......17.......3........12........11.........77,33%

77.33% is the probability that I win the 2/3 match, according to. I call it very positive MU.
My SB against Thresh is -4 aquitect's will +4 stifle. Not crazy neither but it's one more mana denial, which is important in order to protect ourselves from threads, explosives and countertop combo (countertop combo with no mana to activate top is not great...).

But the gob MU is very very bad. So bad, that I did not finish it in order to have real statistics. Something like 25%, even with all the hate in the world... Propaganda was just useless. Plague is good only when 2 of them are in play, which does not happen often, not mentionning the lackey to which my only solution are my free counterspells.

Let's go to the match.

Round1 :
Valendir with Solidarity. I'm pissed off. I feel like I have only very few answers. I know that counterspells are very limited against solidarity.
But I'm lucky, I go aggro and I kill twice turn 5 or 6 with free counterspell backup in order to trouble the drawing; I daze impulse as soon as I can and I keep FoW to refuse the meditates. I side out 3*seasinger+1*wasteland for 4 Stifle that I will not find.

We make a thrid game for the fun, I continue winning.

2/0

1/0/0

Round2 :
I play Mouarf with Terrageddon. The first game pissed me off because I found 4 non mana providers on 15 cards. This kind of draw can be profitable sometimes but clearly not against terrageddon that has a Life From the Loam in his opening hand.
I enter planar void*3 and stifle*4 (he plays deed) against daze*4 et Tarmo*3 I think (it's a first mistake: do never side out your tarmogoyfs). I can play planar void and seasinger and to transform one of his lands into an island (in addition to its other types). I targetted his bayou because it was his only black provider and I was afraid that he would wastehimself his land. I can steal a 3/4 tarmogoyf that will be stuck at that because of planar void. I think I have the game with a backup of 2 FoW + stifle in hand. And I start doing everything wrong, I don't rishadan port his only black ressource and after having Forced a deed (instead of stifling it), I have to force a STP. Then he finds a vindicate for my seasinger and that seals the game against me. The biggest misplay was that my stifle finally served to negate a maze effect although I had a wasteland into play and still my port that I never used. Retrospectively, I think that I did not use my mana denial because I wanted to hard cast my Forces, which I never succeeded to do. I have a lot of regrets.

0/2

1/0/1

Round3 :
I play against Benjamin playing Burn
My testing was quite positive and it continued to be. It was tight twice but rishadan port gave me the game each time. I finish at 4 LP the first and 6 the second.
I sided out 3*seasinger for 3*jitte that I never found.

He looked surprised to lose and he wanted to do another one that I won once more.

2/0

2/0/1

Round4 :
I play against Alexandre who is a newbie that plays a well built goblin that he borrowed to somebody. He does not know the deck and he's not helped by the asian pimp of the deck. I have to explain him what his cards do. He did not realise so far that gempalm made him draw... And even if I told him, he countinued forgetting drawing. I lose very fast the 2 games and he finishes twice @ 18 life points. Fetches probably.
My Sbing:
-4 aquitect's will or -4 Daze (can't remember, will is good for tarmogoyf)
-3 Seasinger
-4 FoW
+4 Stifle
+4 plagues
+3 Jitte
I will only find stifle.

0/2

2/0/2

Round5 :
I play against a random combo slivoid. I have never been worried. He can't win against counterspells and I doubt that he could combo even if I played only the aggro mode.
I side out 3*seasinger (he plays islands, but crystallin makes them useless), 4*aquitect's will for 4*plagues andt 3*jitte. I find double plague for the win.

He wants to play a third game in order to show me his combo. I side out and my seasinger do the job alone (funny to play seasinger with intruder alarm into play)

2/0

3/0/2

Round6 :
I play against Ichorid.

I lose the first but I win the next, thanks to FoW on Dread Returns, a kill turn 5 and bad luck from ichorid. I win the first game thanks to jitte making bridges useless and engineered plague on ichorid. Bad dredge once more from Ichorid.

My SB : -3 seasinger, -4 daze and -3 vials for 3*jitte, 3*planar void and 4*plague

2/1

4/0/2

My seasinger were sided out 5 times on 6 games. That's quite impressive. Sometimes I wonder if jitte would not be better MD.

Finn
11-19-2007, 11:47 AM
Mav, I have been thinking about putting all of the Seasingers in the sb. I just seem to be attacking with a pumped 0/1 for UU1 far, far more often than actually stealing creatures. This move also frees up a number of slots partially devoted to supporting them. Reef Shaman has been somewhat lacking as well, and I already have Tidal Warriors in my board. I know what you would use in their stead, but I am still going for monoblue. What do you think?

Jourdelune
11-19-2007, 04:48 PM
For the Aggro match-up, a 4cc card is slow but perhaps can help with your theme.

Floodgate
Color= Blue Type= Creature - Wall Cost= 3U MI(U)
Text (MI+errata): 0/5, Defender. ; When ~this~ gains flying, sacrifice it. ; When ~this~ leaves play, it deals 1 damage for each two Islands you control to each nonblue creature without flying. [Oracle 2005/08/01]

Really slow in Legacy... :S

For the mana denial aspect and some island made tech:

Quicksilver Fountain
Color= Artifact Type= Artifact Cost= 3 MR(R)
Text (MR+errata): At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player puts a flood counter on target non-Island land he or she controls of his or her choice. That land is an Island as long as it has a flood counter on it. ; At end of turn, if all lands in play are Islands, remove all flood counters from them. [WotC Rules Team 2003/10/06]
* If this card leaves play, the flood counters continue to make the lands be Islands until they are removed. [Mirrodin FAQ 2003/10/01]

A bit slow... will break port use, but continue is work until the opponent got no mana for a complete turn.

Blue Removal:
Pongify
Color= Blue Type= Instant Cost= U PC(U)
Text (PC): Destroy target creature. It can't be regenerated. That creature's controller puts a 3/3 green Ape creature token into play.

Good for key cards, but counterspelling is better...

Siren's Call
Color= Blue Type= Instant Cost= U A(U)/B(U)/U(U)/R(U)/4(U)
Text (4th+errata): Play ~this~ only during an opponent's turn and only before attackers are declared. ; Creatures the active player controls attack this turn if able. ; At end of turn, destroy all non-Wall creatures that player controls that didn't attack this turn. Ignore this effect for each creature the player didn't control continuously since the beginning of the turn. [Oracle 2007/07/13]
* Only creatures in play when the spell is resolved are affected. This means that any creatures which come into play after this spell is resolved are not affected. [bethmo 1994/06/01]
* The creature is destroyed if it does not attack because it simply cannot do so legally. For example, a Sea Serpent will be destroyed if it cannot attack because the opponent has no islands. [Aahz 1994/06/01]
* You can use this effect on a creature you know won't be able to attack. For example, you can use it on a tapped creature. [Aahz 1994/06/01]
* It will require creatures with Haste (see Rule 502.5) to attack since they are able, but it won't destroy them if they don't for some reason. [DeLaney 2000/03/14]
* Extended tournaments (see Rule 803) have banned this card since 1999/10/01.
* Note - Also see Must Attack, Rule 500.2.

Old school nightmare with propaganda it's really nice.

Winter's Chill
Color= Blue Type= Instant Cost= XU IA(R)
Text (IA+errata): Play ~this~ only during combat before the declare blockers step. ; X can't be greater than the number of snow lands you control. ; Destroy X target attacking creatures at end of combat. For each attacking creature, its controller may pay {1} or {2} to prevent this effect. If that player pays only {1} for that creature, prevent all combat damage that would be dealt to and dealt by that creature this turn. [Oracle 2006/07/14]
* The payments are made when the spell resolves. The three options are: pay {2} to let creature act as normal, pay {1} to have creature neither deal or receive damage, or pay nothing and the creature does deal and receive damage but it will be destroyed at end of combat. [D'Angelo 2000/03/09]
* Note - Also see X Costs, Rule G24.1.


Or you could consider something more important but could give some nice removal:

Any change color text and having spells like hydroblast.

Changing Color:
Alter Reality
Color= Blue Type= Instant Cost= 1U TO(R)
Text (TO): Flashback {1}{U}. ; Change the text of target permanent or spell by replacing all instances of one color word with another. (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)

Mind Bend
Color= Blue Type= Instant Cost= U MI(U)/8(R)/9(R)/10(R)
Text (9th/10): Change the text of target permanent by replacing all instances of one color word with another or one basic land type with another. (For example, you may change "nonblack creature" to "nongreen creature" or "forestwalk" to "plainswalk." This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)

(nice with lord of atlantis - islandwalk to plainswalk?)

Whim of Volrath
Color= Blue Type= Instant Cost= U TE(R)
Text (TE+errata): Buyback {2}. ; Change the text of target permanent by replacing all instances of one color word or basic land type with another until end of turn. (For example, you may change "nonred creature" to "nongreen creature" or "plainswalk" to "swampwalk".) [Oracle 1999/07/21]

buyback tech

Or something that change the state of the card target with hydroblast:
Tidal Visionary
Color= Blue Type= Creature - Merfolk Wizard Cost= U IN(C)
Text (IN): 1/1. ; {Tap}: Target creature becomes the color of your choice until end of turn.

More tech with that:
Vodalian Mystic
Color= Blue Type= Creature - Merfolk Wizard Cost= 1U AP(U)
Text (AP): 1/1. ; {Tap}: Target instant or sorcery spell becomes the color of your choice.

=======================

Destroy:

Blue Elemental Blast
Color= Blue Type= Instant Cost= U A(C)/B(C)/U(C)/R(C)/4(C)
Text (4th+errata): Choose one - Counter target red spell; or destroy target red permanent. [Oracle 1999/09/03]

Flash Flood
Color= Blue Type= Instant Cost= U LG(C2)/CH(C3)
Text (CH+errata): Choose one - Destroy target red permanent; or return target Mountain to its owner's hand. [Oracle 2003/07/01]

Hydroblast
Color= Blue Type= Instant Cost= U IA(C)/5(U)
Text (5th+errata): Choose one - Counter target spell if it's red; or destroy target permanent if it's red.

More tech:

Douse

Color= Blue Type= Enchantment Cost= 2U US(U)
Text (US+errata): {1}{U}: Counter target red spell. [Oracle 1999/05/01]
Mana Denial

Chill

Color= Blue Type= Enchantment Cost= 1U TE(U)/6(U)
Text (6th): Red spells cost {2} more to play.

========================================================

I guess all those suggestions are subpar to legacy. Perhaps the changing of color state with the merfolk and some buyback tech could be nice, but would take at least 12 to 16 slots to be effective and more 20 for consistencies.

With all the Bloodmoon effect, Back to Basic effect.... splashing with wasteland + port is problematic. Dragon Stompy should be hard here.

Jourdelune

Finn
01-02-2008, 01:40 PM
As hoped, Wizards came through with a good contender for this deck.

Stonybrook Bannaret
:1::u:
Creature - Merfolk Wizard
Islandwalk
Merfolk and Wizard spells you play cost :1: less to play.
#51/150
1/1

We had been looking for pretty much exactly this card. I'm not sure precisely what this means, but it certainly speeds the deck up without really losing anything. Between him and Merrow Reejerey, I am seeing the possibility for quite a bit of mana production. Some of the Merfolk could be essentially free, making for even more explosive turns. I just don't know yet what avenues that opens for the deck.

Critters
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Stonybrook Bannaret
4 Tidal Warrior

Other blue stuff
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Brainstorm

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Land
4 Rishidan Port
4 Wasteland
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

SB
1 Stifle
3 Propaganda
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Repeal
3 Seasinger

Akasha
01-05-2008, 06:05 PM
How about this one, it looks like a good creature, but is the ability really good enough to play him?

:u::u:
Rare
Creature - Merfolk Rogue
Whenever Grimoire Thief becomes tapped, remove the top three cards of target opponent's library from the game facedown.
You may look at cards removed from the game with Grimoire Thief.
:u:, Sacrifice Grimoire Thief: Turn all cards removed from the game with Grimoire Thief face up. Counter all spells with those names.
2/2

technogeek5000
01-05-2008, 07:10 PM
Wow that looks extremely strong. I think that will make a four of. You will easily remove alot of cards and the fact that you can counter a spell for 1 mana is great.

Maëlig
01-05-2008, 07:28 PM
Hmmm I don't know. I was very enthousiastic at first with him too (there are not so much playable merfolks), but after all I think he's not that great. The fact that he needs to attack 2 or 3 times before he can even have a chance to do anything kind of sucks. I see him as a bad voidmage prodigy with a cheaper activation cost. Plus he doesn't give any tribal synergies.

Akasha
01-06-2008, 04:07 AM
That was the problem I had when I saw him too. First glance he looks great, but then you realize he needs to attack, or is there another way for him to tap him without attacking? But he is a merfolk after all, so maybe 2 or 3 could get into the deck. But the casting cost is making Stonybrook Bannaret a lot less good.

Maveric78f
01-07-2008, 02:41 AM
Bannaret is bad for merfolks. The only good thing about him is islandwalk that is just fine if you play Umezawa's Jitte.

Grimoire Thief is awful. If there was no sacrifice, and a cost of %1 or %2 (as it was first revealed), it would have been worth trying. However, even with this enhanced abilities the %U %U cost and the attack needed would certainly have made him only a SB card. And even for thatm I was very skeptical.

Finn
01-07-2008, 11:52 AM
Bannaret is bad for merfolks. The only good thing about him is islandwalk that is just fine if you play Umezawa's Jitte.So an extra cheap warchief is bad??? Maverick, I have played this guy and he is quite good. I don't know what you are talking about.

BTW, if you areserious about using the Grimoire Thief, the deck already has a way to tap him sans attacking: Merrow Reejerey.

I still don't like the card though.

Barsoom
01-07-2008, 06:48 PM
or is there another way for him to tap him without attacking? But he is a merfolk after all, so maybe 2 or 3 could get into the deck.

With Reejerey, for example.

Maveric78f
01-08-2008, 01:41 AM
I always have something clever to do with reejerey triggered ability. Taping out our own creatures is not tech. Moreover, the trigger from the play of thief cannot tap the thief as soon as it comes into play (the triggered abilities are put on the stack after the spell itself, which means that they resolve before the spell).

Finn, I understand what you say, but a 1/1 for 2 is not aggro, and half the merfolks you play have no colourless cost. Warchief is good in gobs for the following reasons:
- some interesting gobs in late game have at least 1 (only pilly and sometimes tutorable slots) colourless mana in their cost, more often 2 (matron, gempalm if you want to cast it andmost of the tutorable slots) and quite often 3 too (ringleader + SGC + tutorable slots).
- the best is to combine it with matron. But in merfolk we do not have matron.
- the tribality is far superior in gob than in merfolk (at least mine).

All in one, I don't even have to test it in my list.