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BreathWeapon
10-20-2007, 04:28 PM
When Street Wraith was first spoiled, a debate began on the forums. 56 card decks, increased card quality, decreased card variance and complicated mulligans, the argument waged back and forth until the forums came to the conclusion that Street Wraith wasn't worth running unless the deck didn't have an adequate card for its slot or your deck wasn't named Dredge. At that time, I was experimenting with Storm combo and looking for a deck that was more consistent than TES but not as slow as IGGY POP.

At it's core, TES is a break neck combo deck that's designed to win by the second turn, it sacrifices permanent mana sources for acceleration and races head long into Force of Will, Daze, Counterspell, Spellsnare and Stifle. One of the tired truisms of combo is that speed is the most important aspect of a combo deck, and that the combo deck can afford to cut down on its disruption and answers as long as the combo deck is fast enough to out race the opponent's disruption and hate. R&D on the other hand had other ideas for our game of magical cards and began printing disruption and hate that was faster than any combo deck could ever hope to be. Leyline of the Void and Leyline of Singularity could be played before the game even began, Force of Will could be played before the opponent even got a turn and Stifle, Spellsnare, Daze, Orim's Chant, Duress (now Thoughtseize) Cabal Therapy, Chalice of the Void and Tormod's Crypt could be played (or came online) before you even drew the first card off of the top of your deck. Even if you could deal with a single piece of disruption or hate, the opponent was often counting on that fact and using the first piece of disruption in order to Time Walk into a 2cc piece of disruption.

Belcher couldn't even deal with the first piece of disruption, so as soon as Tarmogoyf made Threshold the ubiquitous deck of the format, it had to leave the metagame. Clearly, the most extreme case of "speed" combo was completely unviable. TES managed to cling to the format for dear life, loading up on disruption between the MD and SB and slugging it out against Threshold. TES was, and still is, a good combo deck, but TES is a combo deck that's fighting on Threshold's terms. Both decks attack each other tooth and nail until both decks are in top deck mode, or one deck loses in spectacular fashion, where Threshold has the advantage. Top deck mode isn't where a combo deck wants to be against aggro-control, or even control. Even worse for TES was the rise of Graveyard combo, where Cephalid Illusionist and Ichorid had taken the format by storm, so to speak, and TES was "caught between a rock and a maniac," as Daniel Negreanu would say.

As a storm combo player, I hated Cephalid Illusionist and Ichorid, not because they were bad decks, unfun decks or even unfavorable decks, but because they had a game one against aggro-control and control I could only dream of. Thankfully, those two decks can be dealt with by your run of the mill aggro deck and a prepared SB, but in the meanwhile they taught me a valuable lesson, "Slow down."

So, I abandoned TES, and as sad as I was to set down a deck I had a hand in help creating, or perhaps to put it more aptly butchering, I decided it was time to return to IGGY POP. And boy, did IGGY POP suck. I managed to "slow down" alright, in fact, I managed to "slow down" so much that I was letting every piece of disruption, hate and every tutor and cantrip to find that hate resolve. IGGY POP isn't a middle of the road combo deck, it's the truck that some drunken red neck drove into the ditch. Was I seriously playing with MD Leyline of the Void, 3cc tutors and twice as many storm enablers as I should be? So out came Leyline of the Void for Orim's Chant, out came Intuition for Grim Tutor and out came 2 Ill Gotten Gains for anything that didn't suck. The deck ran well, but the deck also ran with a price tag. I tried cutting Grim Tutor for Death Wish, and it promptly decided to suck with out a Lion's Eye Diamond in the SB and enough life to absorb a Tarmogoyf attack. Those weren't sacrifices I was willing to make, so I cut that slot entirely.

There I was with a 56 card deck, Street Wraith as the filler, and finding out for myself that Street Wraith was the greatest thing to happen to top deck tutors since ... well ... whatever. Any way, Street Wraith turned Mystical Tutor into a Demonic Tutor for U. I would play Lion's Eye Diamond, cast Mystical Tutor for a Hunting Pack (I'll get to Hunting Pack later) or Empty the Warrens and draw out the counter every time. My deck was great, my deck was greater than great, my deck was awesome.

Conscience: So what do you do when you don't draw LED?
Me: Double Tendrils, duh stupid Conscience.
Conscience: So how does that make you any faster than IGGY POP?
Me: ... Fuck ...

So even tho' I had stumbled onto something spectacular, it wasn't what I was
looking for. Sometimes you just have to shelve a good idea for a rainy day and keep scrolling thru' the forums for your answer. So there I was with a 56 card deck again and looking for filler, when it occurred to me that cantrips were the best filler any deck could have, and Mental Note built Threshold.

Turbo double Tendrils?

Mental Note was a sick card, I could turn one Brainstorm, turn two Mental Note to discard the chaff and then Mystical Tutor for the second Tendrils and win on the third turn. Cabal Ritual had decided to stop sucking, and I had decided that this was the storm combo deck I could finally make my deck building "bones" with.

Judge: Deck Check
Me: Here you go
Judge: 59 cards, you forfeit the game.
Me: Really?

Judge: Deck Check
Opponent: Here you go
Judge: 59 cards?!
Altogether: LOL

We had a fairly good chuckle over being such scrubs, so we decided to add a Street Wraith to both decks and forget the whole thing. I flipped thru' my deck to figure out what card I was missing, and it occurred to me that I had forgotten to purchase a Hunting Pack before the tournament began.

One card really does make the difference!

I'm starring across the board at a Meddling Mage naming Infernal Tutor after having run my opponent out of counter magic. I top deck Street Wraith, and then I look at my hand of Tendrils of Agony, Mystical Tutor, Lion's Eye Diamond and some other acceleration. "I guess I'll have to Mystical Tutor for Tendrils and try to go off next turn. Wait a minute, WTF am I thinking?" And I'll leave the ensuing carnage to your imagination. The opponent rabbit hunts off of the top of his deck and reveals Meddling Mage, boy would Meddling Mage on Tendrils of Agony have sucked.

Conscience: Street Wraith is a Time Walk
Me: Yeah, I totally agree.
Conscience: Street Wraith builds Threshold to.
Me. So, what are you getting out?
Conscience: You know what I'm getting at.
Me: Blasphemy!

The 64 card deck, of all of the holiest of sacred cows to slaughter, I had to pick the one that will get me flamed into eternity. I collected my prizes, bough my Hunting Pack and asked the store owner for 4 more black sleeves.

MD
4 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Hunting Pack
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
4 Street Wraith
4 Orim's Chant
1 Wipe Away
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Plateau
1 Island

SB
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Echoing Truth

This is where the debate begins, and I'm sure where the debate will never end. I knew full well what the implications were of adding Street Wraith, I was sacrificing consistency for speed, or was I? While I saw Lion's Eye Diamond less in my opening hand, I was reaching Threshold at almost break neck speed, and when I did see Lion's Eye Diamond, Mystical Tutor and Street Wraith in the same hand, I was committing a truly foul offense in front of the Magical gods.

Math be damned, results don't lie, and numbers sure as hell can be misconstrued.

When it comes to Storm combo, 64 is its own animal. It either slops a fast win together with Infernal Tutor and Lion's Diamond, Mystical Tutor, Street Wriath and Lion's Eye Diamond or builds Threshold (making your acceleration a legitimate "threat") and aims for either a double Tendrils of Agony, an Empty the Warrens or a Hunting Pack (making your Mystical Tutor a legitimate "threat"). You can patiently collect the pieces you need by Brainstorming and then filter the junk with Mental Note and Mystical Tutor, making it more consistent then the other Storm combo decks in the format.

I feel completely comfortable playing 64 against blue decks, because most aggro-control and control players aren't familiar with the dynamics of the double Tendrils plan and the Mystical Tutor and Street Wraith combo, and you can severely punish them for that. Hunting Pack is also a bomb that no one sees coming from Storm combo these days, and you should essentially think of Hunting Pack as an Empty the Warrens with a Time Walk and Pro:Red attached to it for three more mana. You can also play Storm combo at instant speed by building up a green mana base, Orim's Chanting your opponent during his upkeep and then resolving the Hunting Pack. Most of the time when you Orim's Chant an opponent on his upkeep, he'll let the Orim's Chant resolve no matter how many counters he may have, and all of a sudden he'll be starring down a board full of pissed off Tabby cats looking for their Meow Mix.

I'm not going to claim that 64 is the best Storm combo deck in the format, each Storm combo deck has something different to offer different people. Playing Storm combo is an art, not a science, and 64 is the Storm combo deck that wets my pallet. If you're not satisfied with Belcher, TES or IGGY POP, 64 offers an alluring combination of speed, mid-range and flexibility that the other decks may lack. I've enjoyed playing 64 more than any other Storm combo deck I've played before, and I've put a considerable amount of time into it. If you get behind the wheel, I promise you it will drive just as gracefully as Phil Hellmuth.

As always, comments and criticism are welcome.

Iranon
10-20-2007, 04:42 PM
Your deck is almost guaranteed to be better with less cards, simply because your important ratios of drawing different kinds of cards(disruption to mana to business) will fluctuate less.

Street Wraith may be a correct call or not (definitely makes Mystical Tutor suck less), but that's no excuse to run more than 62 cards (61 and 62 are occasionally the correct call when you can't fine-tune above ratios in a 60 card deck, and EVEN THEN you're probably kidding yourself).

Otherwise, some interesting ideas. I wouldn't run a full set of Mental Notes (8 Cantrips that don't give your choices... me no like), but its inclusion is intrigueing.

BreathWeapon
10-20-2007, 04:58 PM
Your deck is almost guaranteed to be better with less cards, simply because your important ratios of drawing different kinds of cards(disruption to mana to business) will fluctuate less.

Street Wraith may be a correct call or not (definitely makes Mystical Tutor suck less), but that's no excuse to run more than 62 cards (61 and 62 are occasionally the correct call when you can't fine-tune above ratios in a 60 card deck, and EVEN THEN you're probably kidding yourself).

Otherwise, some interesting ideas. I wouldn't run a full set of Mental Notes (8 Cantrips that don't give your choices... me no like), but its inclusion is intrigueing.

The problem with that argument, and I don't necessarily disagree with it, is that Street Wraith aren't cards 61 thru' 64, they're "Null Space" in front of whatever card you would have drawn instead. While you may not draw Lion's Eye Diamond as often in your opening hand, and thus your mulligans become more complicated, you will draw Lion's Eye Diamond just as much thru' out the course of the game as you would have regardless of whether or not they were in the deck. Unlike TES, you aren't required to have the nuts in your starting hand in order to win the game, or at least play the tempo game, so as long as you are willing to sacrifice your turn 1 wins with LED a little, you are gaining a definite advantage over the long haul.

I don't think it's a problem that has a solution, or rather there is no right or wrong argument, there are just pros and cons you have to either be willing to accept in order to play the deck or reject and play something else (or I guess a version with out Street Wraith, like I was doing before).

I'm pretty much always happy to see Mental Note, if you play with it long enough it grows on you.

Glad you enjoyed the post tho', and thanks for the feedback.

Kronicler
10-20-2007, 04:59 PM
Well you certainly have done it this time :tongue: . I am definately going to test this deck out but I'm going to say what will be said a million billion times, and this is that there has to be a combination of cards to remove to make this deck 60 cards that will make it more consistent. I don't have to go over the argument because I'm sure you know it, but especially in a combo deck,"less is more". After I test I'll let you know what I think should be cut, or if *gasp* 64 cards may be the correct choice, which I doubt, but it is possible.

Either way though, excellent opening post and, at first glance, really nice, interesting, deck.

Kronicler

EDIT: Breath, you posted while I was posting, so now I want to say something about the post above this one. The point you make about street wraith actually not being counted in the # of cards in the deck is really intruiging, and a very valid argument IMO. It is definately something that I will keep in mind when testing.

troopatroop
10-20-2007, 05:20 PM
I refuse to run anything but 60 ever. Rediculous Hat says so.

lloydrage
10-20-2007, 05:37 PM
I think this deck is interesting and am willing to test

BreathWeapon
10-20-2007, 05:39 PM
Well you certainly have done it this time :tongue: . I am definately going to test this deck out but I'm going to say what will be said a million billion times, and this is that there has to be a combination of cards to remove to make this deck 60 cards that will make it more consistent. I don't have to go over the argument because I'm sure you know it, but especially in a combo deck,"less is more". After I test I'll let you know what I think should be cut, or if *gasp* 64 cards may be the correct choice, which I doubt, but it is possible.

Either way though, excellent opening post and, at first glance, really nice, interesting, deck.

Kronicler

EDIT: Breath, you posted while I was posting, so now I want to say something about the post above this one. The point you make about street wraith actually not being counted in the # of cards in the deck is really intruiging, and a very valid argument IMO. It is definately something that I will keep in mind when testing.

Yeah, you really have to think of Street Wraith in this deck in the opposite way people thought of it when they first saw it spoiled. It's not about cutting down on the number of cards in your deck, it's about adding 4 0cc Time Walks and additional Threshold for free.

You may be able to cut cards from the MD and go down to a "56" card deck, but I'm not savvy enough to figure out what the ratios should be for that, and if you start cutting important cards like the Island, the bounce spell, Diminishing Returns and Hunting Pack (this is essentially what one of my more closed minded friends did) you make the deck extremely linear and possibly prone to getting screwed by Mental Note (altho' he says it's never happened). If you cut 1x of the 4x cards, you're changing the speed and consistency of the deck in ways I confess I can't even begin to predict (I play mostly by feel, not numbers).

I think the theory is sound, you're trading the % you'll see Lion's Eye Diamond (the only card you really care about) in your opening hand for increasing your Threshold, gaining a conditional Time Walk and an interesting set up card with Brainstorm (Like Brainstorming the second Tendrils of Agony back on top of your deck and then using Street Wraith to turn LED into a Black Lotus). Before I added Street Wraith, I designed the deck to reduce the reliance on LED or to eliminate it completely, so further playing down LED in order to incorporate Street Wraith (at least for Threshold) makes sense in that respect

I think you could essentially play the deck either way, 56 or 64, but then you're shifting the argument from reducing the amount of times you'll see LED in your opening hand vs Street Wraith to increasing the amount of times you'll see LED during the game vs cutting down on your outs and utility.

Silverdragon
10-20-2007, 05:40 PM
If you get behind the wheel, I promise you it will drive just as gracefully as Phil Hellmuth.


LOL

Anyway first thing that came to my mind was cutting down to 2 Tendrils. Double Tendrils gets a bit harder but the storm cards are the only cards in your deck that are truly dead until you can combo. Even if you have a hard time getting double Tendrils with just 2 of them I'd guess that a lot of the time EtW + Tendrils might be almost equally as good and don't forget that you have Mystical Tutors too.
For all those wanting to get the deck down to 60 you could also cut a single Mental Note (my instincts tell me that this card, although it is not bad in your deck might be the weakest link) and the Plateau.
Concerning the Plateau I just have to ask how much testing went into working out this manabase? 8 Fetches are a given and 14 to 15 lands total maybe too but is Plateau really better than Badlands, Scrubland, basic Swamp or the second U Sea?

BreathWeapon
10-20-2007, 06:26 PM
LOL

Anyway first thing that came to my mind was cutting down to 2 Tendrils. Double Tendrils gets a bit harder but the storm cards are the only cards in your deck that are truly dead until you can combo. Even if you have a hard time getting double Tendrils with just 2 of them I'd guess that a lot of the time EtW + Tendrils might be almost equally as good and don't forget that you have Mystical Tutors too.
For all those wanting to get the deck down to 60 you could also cut a single Mental Note (my instincts tell me that this card, although it is not bad in your deck might be the weakest link) and the Plateau.
Concerning the Plateau I just have to ask how much testing went into working out this manabase? 8 Fetches are a given and 14 to 15 lands total maybe too but is Plateau really better than Badlands, Scrubland, basic Swamp or the second U Sea?

I'm so glad you brought these two points,

First point, reducing the number of Tendrils in this deck is a non-starter, the deck is aiming for a Turbo Two Tendrils plan in order to reduce the reliance on LED. If you only play 2 Tendrils, then you could eliminate this play entirely if you Mental Note one of them into the discard pile.

Second point, the mana base takes some getting use to, the most important aspect of the mana base is that all of the 4 tertiary colors, I consider the deck to be base blue, be redundant by 2. That's why Bayou and Plateau look out of place, their doubling each tertiary color in the deck. Theoretically, you could play Savannah and Badlands and achieve the same affect, and I'm told that this combination is superior to my combination because Plateau can really suck if you aren't playing with 4 Empty the Warrens in the deck. Savannah can really suck to, but more often than not you're boarding in Swarms for a total of 9 cards it can support. Personally, I side stepped the entire issue by SBing the two extra dual lands.

I usually Fetch for Tundra first, since the blue cantrips/tutors are the most important cards in the deck and you can't always win with out disruption, and then after that I search for any Dual with black in it. Scrublands is actually a fairly solid Dual in this deck, I played it instead of Island quite a few times.

As long as you follow the "Rule of 2" when you're building your mana base, you can't go too far wrong. Boarding Duals allows you to tailor your deck more easily, and you have the SB space to do it, so I highly recommend it.

Mental Note can put you in some awkward situations some times by discarding your Duals, but usually judicious use of your Fetches and Lotus Petal will save the day. It's only really a problem when you're trying to get cute with Empty the Warrens or Hunting Pack.

thebadmagicplayer
10-20-2007, 07:53 PM
@breath weapon: you said something about results? What decks did you test with?
Also do you find double green easy to get for hunting pack when using a dual land mana base?

T.B.M.P.

BreathWeapon
10-20-2007, 09:42 PM
Usually we test with/against U/g/w Threshold and Landstill, and I've had my fair share of success of against both archetypes. Control in general is an easy match up, it's really aggro-control where you have to have your wits about you.

Getting double green can be difficult at times, most of the time you get double green by using Lion's Eye Diamond, the rest of the time you just wind up with double green on the board by accident. Hunting Pack isn't usually a card I plan on hard casting, because in order for me to hard cast Hunting Pack I would need GG on the board, Threshold for Cabal Ritual and I would have already been reduced to top decking at some point, at which point I should probably be looking for either Ill Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns any way.

Where Hunting Pack is really useful is in situations where you have too much mana for Empty the Warrens, too few Storm for IGG/Tendrils and you don't want to give your opponent a new hand. In this situation, you can cast Hunting Pack for say 8 storm and be guaranteed to win the game next turn as opposed to the turn after that.

In all fairness, green is in the deck because I felt like being audacious and I hate Abeyance. My friends cut green entirely, which I can understand, because it simplifies the manabase. They replaced the Hunting Pack with a second Ill Gotten Gains, which solves the "right on mana, wrong on storm" problem and gives the deck a little more (but honestly not much) protection against milling important cards with Mental Note. Sometimes they just play "63" to, but that would be a lame deck name:wink:

Wrapping this up tho', I think cutting down to 4 colors and running Abeyance in the SB is fine. Abeyance is actually a fairly good card in your SB, because Tormod's Crypt is a popular SB card against this deck, and even tho' Tormod's Crypt destroys Threshold, at least you can go off with Ill Gotten Gains or cantrip with the Abeyance and start rebuilding Threshold.

Because I believe it's important to give alternate view points on this deck, I'm going to post "56," which is my friend's stripped down and simplified version of the deck.

4 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
4 Street Wraith
4 Orim's Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

SB

3 Empty the Warrens
4 Abeyance
4 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Massacre
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Hunting Pack

Increasing the odds of seeing a LED in your starting hand and drawing a LED during the game does make a difference, but I find that that not having MD Diminishing Returns and removal can drive you absolutely crazy at times, so when I play his version, I usually play a tweaked version that includes Diminishing Returns and Massacre I call "58," which you can think of as the anti-U/g/w Threshold version. My other friend partially agrees with me by including Wipe Away, "57," but he thinks that Diminishing Returns is counter intuitive in this deck because it removes Threshold.

The important point is that there is room for variance and customization.

MattH
10-20-2007, 11:10 PM
Is trading poorer mulliganing decisions and the sometimes-relevant life loss really worth getting an extra card in your graveyard? I find the claim that it is HIGHLY DUBIOUS.

I suppose there is an interaction with Mystical Tutor, but doesn't that only come up when you draw a Wraith the turn you're trying to go off?

emidln
10-20-2007, 11:12 PM
Why exactly would you play this over Grim Iggy? Your list is:

+2 Orim's Chant
+2 Tendrils of Agony
+1 Diminishing Returns
+4 Mental Note
+1 Wipe Away
+1 Hunting Pack

-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-1 Echoing Truth
-2 Grim Tutor
-2 Infernal Contract
-1 Cruel Bargain

From the list that captainlyle381 top8'd with at Eli's DLD a month and a half ago.

To make Diminshing Returns playable you cut an Ill-Gotten Gains and increase the number of win conditions to 6 from 3. Wipe Away is an arbitrary choice over Echoing Truth. Due to space contraints from the extra win conditions, you cut Infernal Contract/Cruel Bargain slots. Due to the lack of extra tutors/draw, you play extra Orim's Chants. You have an additional 4 Mental Note.

Have you found the ability to cast Diminishing Returns more powerful than the ability to resolve a turn 1 draw4? Is the redundancy of the extra Tendrils and Chants worth the inability to combo with them (if they were Grim Tutors)?

In any event, I'm glad to see other people cutting Leylines and Intuitions. I commend you on that.

dude 666
10-21-2007, 12:32 AM
This deck looked quite intriguing, and I have been testing it. I've come up with the following changes:

Mana:
4 Strand
4 Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plateau

Cyclers:
4 Wraith
4 Edge of Autumn

Draw/Tutor:
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish

Acceleration:
4 LED
4 Petal
8 Ritual
4 Seething Song

Win:
3 Tendrils
1 Warrens

Protection:
2 Abeyance

SB:
1 IGG
1 Returns
1 Tendrils
1 Warrens


First off, I'd like to say that the thing I like about this deck is it's highly resilient, and Infernal Tutor is almost never a dead card, which is often a big problem with other storm decks. The deck has great synergy, Mystical Tutor is almost always a Demonic for :u: , Brainstorm + fetchlands help sift through the deck very quickly, and I always end up winning with double tendrils, with the storm usually between 5 to 10.

Some notes:
Mental Note really sucked, it didn't really serve a purpose in the deck other than to achieve threshold, which my version does very quickly as is.
Burning Wish is awesome. Period.
Every time I had Chant, I always wished it was Abeyance, Abeyance is so much more effective at doing its job in this deck, plus it cycles.
Edge of Autumn is generally very useful, it makes Mystical Tutor much better, and helps achieve threshold.
I'm not sure if the manabase is in tip-top shape, I just threw it together based off of the original.

BreathWeapon
10-21-2007, 07:33 AM
@Matt

I'm not trading "complicated mulligans" for just Threshold, I'm trading "complicated mulligans" for Threshold, Time Walk and stacking tricks with Brainstorm. Even if I were just trading "complicated mulligans" for Threshold, I don't think it's a bad trade, because the "complicated mulligans" aren't all that complicated and reaching Threshold can be more important than starting with Lion's Eye Diamond in your opening hand.

@Emidln

I can't compare "64" directly to IGGY POP, because "64" was built with achieving Threshold ASAP in mind. If you cut Mental Note and you play with Grim Tutor, you're playing with a deck that sets an entirely different pace for itself. There's no reason you can't play with Draw 4s in "64," but I think that Mystical Tutor -> Draw 4 -> Ritual -> and cast the Draw 4 into a counter is an atrocious play. "64" is about getting the opponent to counter your acceleration so your bombs and tutors are left intact, while IGGY POP uses acceleration to cast bombs and then gets them countered for tempo and card advantage losses.

The two deck's appear to be superficially similar, but they are drastically different. I'll elaborate on those differences later, because it's late, I'm tired, and I feel like I didn't do your post any justice.

@Dude

It's an interesting idea, but Seething Song doesn't belong in the deck for certain, and I don't think the deck "needs" another tutor, altho' Burning Wish is a great card.

I don't like replacing Mental Note with Edge of Autumn, because the deck is built around Mental Note and achieving Threshold. Even after the deck achieves Threshold, Mental Note still cantrips, discards cards on top of your deck and builds storm, while Edge of Autumn does nothing with out Mystical Tutor/LED.

emidln
10-21-2007, 08:52 AM
I can't compare "64" directly to IGGY POP, because "64" was built with achieving Threshold ASAP in mind. If you cut Mental Note and you play with Grim Tutor, you're playing with a deck that sets an entirely different pace for itself. There's no reason you can't play with Draw 4s in "64," but I think that Mystical Tutor -> Draw 4 -> Ritual -> and cast the Draw 4 into a counter is an atrocious play. "64" is about getting the opponent to counter your acceleration so your bombs and tutors are left intact, while IGGY POP uses acceleration to cast bombs and then gets them countered for tempo and card advantage losses.

I rarely find myself casting Mystical Tutor for a draw4, precisely for the reason you listed. If it's in my hand it's an option turn 1 off rits or later off lands, but it hasn't been a tutor target more than a handful of special cases.

If you are playing 12 acceleration with 1 Returns, 1 IGG, 4 Chant, 1 Hunting Pack, 1 ETW, 4 Tendrils, 4 Infernal Tutor, and 4 Mystical Tutor (included because of the threat of Street Wraith) why would you want to get your acceleration countered against control? After turn 1, it seems to me that acceleration shouldn't be cast until you resolve a Chant effect or are going for the win. You have enough bombs and cantrips that tapping two to three land for a tutor effect or draw spell (a draw4 or a dreturns) allows you to make 1 for 1 and 2 for 1 (in your favor) trades with your opponent until they run out of countermagic for your threats. This is what I designed Grim Iggy on (hence the lack of Intuitions, the additional threats in draw4s, the lack of extra IGGs, inclusion of Street Wraith to make Mystical a threat, etc) and what it appears that your deck actually does in practice. I'm really interested in this build because it seems to do what I've been doing for many months now, except that you're doing it without requiring people to spend $200-$300 extra.

dude 666
10-21-2007, 01:08 PM
@Dude
It's an interesting idea, but Seething Song doesn't belong in the deck for certain, and I don't think the deck "needs" another tutor, altho' Burning Wish is a great card.

I don't like replacing Mental Note with Edge of Autumn, because the deck is built around Mental Note and achieving Threshold. Even after the deck achieves Threshold, Mental Note still cantrips, discards cards on top of your deck and builds storm, while Edge of Autumn does nothing with out Mystical Tutor/LED.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I saw the point of this deck as getting a lot of acceleration into a double tendrils. Achieving threshold was just good because it made cabal rits much better. And that is really what my version tries to achieve. Seething song is just another dark ritual in this deck and is a mana fixer for burning wish and ETW.

Burning Wish is a great utility spell, and I feel that any deck that has the manabase for it should play it. It removes many dead cards when you don't need them, allows you to have access to more cards, and adds storm.

Mental Note is an absolutely dead card late game, and while it does put 3 cards in your yard, it doesn't do much else. It doesn't provide card advantage, whereas Edge does. Late game Edge is great as it is another card that works great with mystical tutor, and it turns all your lands into cantrips.

marit
10-21-2007, 01:36 PM
Mental Note is an absolutely dead card late game, and while it does put 3 cards in your yard, it doesn't do much else. It doesn't provide card advantage, whereas Edge does. Late game Edge is great as it is another card that works great with mystical tutor, and it turns all your lands into cantrips.

I'm pretty sure Edge of Autumn is card disadvantage. Cycling is takes a land, and itself just to net you one card, so unless that land is Flagstones of Trokair, it will lose you a card. It also can't add to storm, and you have to hope what you cantrip into will add to storm.

dude 666
10-21-2007, 01:49 PM
I'm pretty sure Edge of Autumn is card disadvantage. Cycling is takes a land, and itself just to net you one card, so unless that land is Flagstones of Trokair, it will lose you a card. It also can't add to storm, and you have to hope what you cantrip into will add to storm.

Storm is the least of the deck's problems, as it only needs to get to 4 or 5 storm. What you cycle into will probably be acceleration, or another cycler, in which case you cycle that card for free.

But you're right in that Edge is not card advantage, what I meant to say was that it allows you to cycle through your deck for free and helps get to threshold.

Mental Note is blue, and when you are comboing, you will not often have blue mana unless it is from a lotus petal, because all of the accelerants add black, or in my case, black and red.

BreathWeapon
10-21-2007, 02:22 PM
I rarely find myself casting Mystical Tutor for a draw4, precisely for the reason you listed. If it's in my hand it's an option turn 1 off rits or later off lands, but it hasn't been a tutor target more than a handful of special cases.

If you are playing 12 acceleration with 1 Returns, 1 IGG, 4 Chant, 1 Hunting Pack, 1 ETW, 4 Tendrils, 4 Infernal Tutor, and 4 Mystical Tutor (included because of the threat of Street Wraith) why would you want to get your acceleration countered against control? After turn 1, it seems to me that acceleration shouldn't be cast until you resolve a Chant effect or are going for the win. You have enough bombs and cantrips that tapping two to three land for a tutor effect or draw spell (a draw4 or a dreturns) allows you to make 1 for 1 and 2 for 1 (in your favor) trades with your opponent until they run out of countermagic for your threats. This is what I designed Grim Iggy on (hence the lack of Intuitions, the additional threats in draw4s, the lack of extra IGGs, inclusion of Street Wraith to make Mystical a threat, etc) and what it appears that your deck actually does in practice. I'm really interested in this build because it seems to do what I've been doing for many months now, except that you're doing it without requiring people to spend $200-$300 extra.

It's not that I want my opponents to counter my acceleration, it's that I want my opponents to fear my acceleration. If my opponents fear my acceleration, then I can continue to cast spells after an Orim's Chant is countered and bait other counters. The threat of 2 Tendrils is a "likely" threat, so instead of taking the time to find another Orim's Chant and then having to deal with a Meddling Mage or Counterbalance hitting the board, I can continue to go off with out the fear of another counter.

It's the same with Infernal Tutor and Mystical Tutor, Infernal Tutor is a threat to the opponent even with out Lion's Eye Diamond, because Infernal Tutor can tutor for the second Tendrils of Agony, and Mystical Tutor is either a "full blown" Demonic Tutor with Street Wraith or a threat to the opponent because it can find a Storm or Split Second card etc.

Essentially, every card in my deck is a threat to my opponent in some form, and since every card in in my deck is a threat to my opponent in some form, I get to choose with what I bait my opponent's counters. Ideally, you just resolve Orim's Chant, cast Infernal Tutor and sacrifice Lion's Eye Diamond to kill your opponent, but nothing is ever ideal against blue decks, so you have to make do with what you have to crack their counter wall.

I don't have anything against Grim Tutor, Draw 4's or even Death Wish, well maybe I don't have anything against Grim Tutor, Draw 4's and even Death Wish aren't the best set up sells in a format full of counters and Tarmogoyfs, but Grim Tutor is cost prohibitive. If I could afford to buy them, then I'd seriously consider them over Mental Note, but here's the thing, do you even need Grim Tutors? IGGY POP has been using 3cc tutors as a crutch, people figured out Intuition and 3 Ill Gotten Gains were too slow, so people replaced Intuition with Grim Tutor and left the number of Ill Gotten Gains the same (multiple Ill Gotten Gains is a waste of space, I'd rather cut down to 1 Ill Gotten Gains and 1 Diminishing Returns to diversify). I basically said to myself, "why do we even need another tutor past Infernal Tutor and Mystical Tutor? TES gets by with Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor just fine, and with Street Wraith I can either consider Mystical Tutor a full fledged tutor or just tutor for Infernal Tutor any way." So, I basically came to the conclusion that what IGGY POP needed was another set up card, or in this case two set up cards, not another tutor, and that's when Mental Note and Street Wraith found their way into the deck (and Diminishing Returns, but you guys should be playing with Diminishing Returns any way).

My deck and IGGY POP are similar decks, but what really defines my deck is Mental Note, Street Wraith and 4 Tendrils of Agony instead of 3cc and 4cc cards that get Dazed. Diminishing Returns and 60+ cards is really up to the pilot, but what makes the deck really interesting on a theoretical level is its ability to inverse our assumptions regarding Street Wraith.

BreathWeapon
10-21-2007, 03:15 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I saw the point of this deck as getting a lot of acceleration into a double tendrils. Achieving threshold was just good because it made cabal rits much better. And that is really what my version tries to achieve. Seething song is just another dark ritual in this deck and is a mana fixer for burning wish and ETW.

Burning Wish is a great utility spell, and I feel that any deck that has the manabase for it should play it. It removes many dead cards when you don't need them, allows you to have access to more cards, and adds storm.

Mental Note is an absolutely dead card late game, and while it does put 3 cards in your yard, it doesn't do much else. It doesn't provide card advantage, whereas Edge does. Late game Edge is great as it is another card that works great with mystical tutor, and it turns all your lands into cantrips.

Seething Song is not another Dark Ritual, Seething Song is a 3cc card that requires another off color Dual, doesn't produce Black mana and gets Dazed. If I were going to play with a Red ritual, I would play with Right of Flame or Tinder Wall before I played with Seething Song. That said, why would I want 5 Red mana that's going to eat my Black mana when I could have 5 Black mana in the first place? I don't want to put Goblins on the board on turn three in a blue environment or let my opponent's gain card advantage by countering my acceleration "bottle neck," I want to win. Seething Song is completely antithetical to what this deck is trying to achieve and how it actually achieves it.

Mental Note is not an absolutely dead card in the late game, Mental Note always cantrips, adds to Storm and filters cards. If you think the Threshold aspect of Mental Note is irrelevant in the late game, then you haven't gotten passed the gold fishing or game 1 stage of the deck, because people will SB Tormod's Crypt in on you regardless of whether or not it's actually a good idea.

Saying that Mental Note is an absolutely dead card in the late game is misinformed, but treating Edge of Autumn like it's never dead is just being selective about when and where you apply your arguments. Edge of Autumn is worthless unless you have Mystical Tutor in your hand or you are going to go off that turn. Sometimes, you just need to cycle Street Wraith in order to see your next card, and in these situations, Edge of Autumn is a self inflicted Sinkhole.

I'm well aware of how good Burning Wish is, but the deck was designed in order to eliminate the need for a third tutor. If I do play Burning Wish, I play Burning Wish instead of a Tendrils of Agony to reduce the number of virtual dead cards in my hand or instead of removal for similar reasons. But considering that Mystical Tutor->Burning Wish->Answer is an atrocious tempo loss unless the answer is Massacre, and even then it's a tempo loss compared to MD Massacre, I don't think I could play with more than a couple of them (I'm getting ready to convert to both of my friend's lists and cut Green, so "64" has an extra slot available) and a 3 card wish board (not counting Empty the Warrens).

SB
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Abeyance
4 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 ???


I fully encourage you to pursue your own deck, but cutting Mental Note and adding Red Rituals aren't in this deck's mission statement.

Iranon
10-21-2007, 03:21 PM
I still don't understand your reasoning regarding Street Wraith... people don't want to run 60 cards; they want to run as few as possible. If we could run 56, we would.
Decks with Baubles don't run 68 cards, after all. Something has to be the weakest link and therefore be a candidate for shaving. If your tech is that good, it might be Mystical Tutor, Brainstorm or some other card that's usually played as a 4-of. While that would look strange too, it's easier to justify than running 64.

BreathWeapon
10-21-2007, 03:56 PM
I still don't understand your reasoning regarding Street Wraith... people don't want to run 60 cards; they want to run as few as possible. If we could run 56, we would.
Decks with Baubles don't run 68 cards, after all. Something has to be the weakest link and therefore be a candidate for shaving. If your tech is that good, it might be Mystical Tutor, Brainstorm or some other card that's usually played as a 4-of. While that would look strange too, it's easier to justify than running 64.

You're missing the point, Street Wraith isn't a Bauble, a Bauble requires you to wait until your next turn to draw the card. Street Wraith draws the card now, so it's not a 60+ card deck at the cost of tempo. The deck isn't good because Street Wraith makes the deck "64" cards, Street Wraith is good because Street Wraith is an amazing card. You get free Threshold, free Time Walks, free stacking effects and even free beat down at the cost of reducing the % you'll see LED in your opening hand at 60+ or even increasing the % you'll see LED during the game at 60-. The stacking effects alone are worth it, because Street Wraith creates chains where you can completely circumvent Infernal Tutor.

To give you an example, I played a game yesterday where my opponent played a Meddling Mage naming Infernal Tutor, I EOT Brainstormed and drew a Street Wraith for a hand of,

Street Wraith
Mystical Tutor
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal
Dark Ritual
Orim's Chant

I play Orim's Chant, it resolves, I play Lotus Petal, I play Lion's Eye Diamond, I play Dark Ritual, I play Mystical Tutor for Ill Gotten Gains, I cycle Street Wraith and in response I sacrifice Lion's Eye Diamond. I play Ill Gotten Gains, I recur Mystical Tutor, Street Wraith and Lion's Eye Diamond. I play Mystical Tutor for Tendrils of Agony, I play Lion's Eye Diamond, I cycle Street Wraith and sacrifice Lion's Eye Diamond and GG (Force of Will and Fetchland damage did him in).

Opponent: I didn't know you could do that
Me: No one really does

The point isn't to get people to use 60+ decks, the point is to get people to see that Street Wraith is both A) The Nut High in Storm combo and B) You can include him in this deck regardless of whether or not it increases the size of the deck. Street Wraith gives you a ton of synergy for a very incremental cost in mulliganing decisions, not in tempo and not in making the deck any less consistent thru' out the course of the game.

You can run a 56 card deck, I posted the "stream lined" version as a counter argument to the 60+ versions, but that comes at the cost of removing Diminishing Returns and removal (which could cost you a game at some point).

This brings me full circle on another issue, the reason Edge of Autumn kind of sucks is that it requires you to have two land on your board in order to loop with Mystical Tutor, Lion's Eye Diamond and Ill Gotten Gains. Even tho' it turns into a virtual Mental Note in this situation, it's already too late to take advantage of the Threshold.

Iranon
10-21-2007, 04:55 PM
I believe you misunderstood me. I never argued against Street Wraith. 2 life seems a perfectly reasonable price to pay for the option to get something immediately off a Tutor, LED shenanigans and easier Threshold.
However, that Street Wraith's specific drawback is more palatable than that of Baubles is irrelevant to the optimal deck size...

I merely pointed out that the deck is almost guaranteed to be better once you eliminated the weakest links (which might well be the 4th copy of 3 different spells). You seem to be running into a pretty common dilemma: You're notably above 60 cards, you don't want to forgo any tutorable one-of and you want to see your 4-ofs early and reliably.
Well... all adventurous Survival designers need to address exactly the same problem . When all is said and done, either some of the utility isn't worth the slot or some of the bread-and-butter spells are less vital than others and should be trimmed.

The imperative to run strong cards as 4-ofs is much much weaker than the one about keeping your deck size low. The fact that the Wraiths thin your deck don't justify abandoning the principle; one might as well say that blatantly suboptimal creature choices don't need redressing when a deck contains 4 Goyfs so overall power levels are within acceptable parameters.
Running something that covers for a glaring mistake doesn't make that any less glaring.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, especially since I don't seem to make constructive suggestions. While I have some experience with Tendrils decks I'm sure you know the intricacies of your tech better than I do. I feel confident to say that cuts will make the deck better, but my guesses on which cards to trim are less likely to be correct than yours.

BreathWeapon
10-21-2007, 05:29 PM
I believe you misunderstood me. I never argued against Street Wraith. 2 life seems a perfectly reasonable price to pay for the option to get something immediately off a Tutor, LED shenanigans and easier Threshold.
However, that Street Wraith's specific drawback is more palatable than that of Baubles is irrelevant to the optimal deck size...

I merely pointed out that the deck is almost guaranteed to be better once you eliminated the weakest links (which might well be the 4th copy of 3 different spells). You seem to be running into a pretty common dilemma: You're notably above 60 cards, you don't want to forgo any tutorable one-of and you want to see your 4-ofs early and reliably.
Well... all adventurous Survival designers need to address exactly the same problem . When all is said and done, either some of the utility isn't worth the slot or some of the bread-and-butter spells are less vital than others and should be trimmed.

The imperative to run strong cards as 4-ofs is much much weaker than the one about keeping your deck size low. The fact that the Wraiths thin your deck don't justify abandoning the principle; one might as well say that blatantly suboptimal creature choices don't need redressing when a deck contains 4 Goyfs so overall power levels are within acceptable parameters.
Running something that covers for a glaring mistake doesn't make that any less glaring.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, especially since I don't seem to make constructive suggestions. While I have some experience with Tendrils decks I'm sure you know the intricacies of your tech better than I do. I feel confident to say that cuts will make the deck better, but my guesses on which cards to trim are less likely to be correct than yours.

I think the argument is more complicated than your making it out to be, as long as there is homogenious expansion, i.e the cards in the deck are all of the same relative importance and power level, then you can play as small or as large of a deck as you want. Comparing Street Wraith in Storm combo to singletons in Survival isn't an accurate comparison, because those singletons are bricks that can't be cycled. Adding Street Wraith doesn't literally increase the size of your deck in regards to the ratios of how often you'll see a card in the course of a game, it just decreases the odds you'll see Lion's Eye Diamond in your hand. So, you're using a stead fast truism to criticize a card that breaks the fundamental rules of the game, and as a result it doesn't accurately apply. I'm not saying it isn't relevant, because it certainly is, it's just not as clear cut as you are making it out to be.

I agree that it's possible that as the deck approaches 56 it becomes strong, I've received a PM of some one arguing that the deck is using more land than it needs at 60 with 4 Street Wraith and 4 Mental Note, so it's quite possible that going to 13 lands, MDing Diminishing Returns and using a Burning Wish instead of the 4th Tendrils of Agony lets the deck solve the 60+ "problem" entirely. Nevertheless, all of the arguments for 60+ are still valid.

Iranon
10-21-2007, 06:41 PM
I think the argument is more complicated than your making it out to be, as long as there is homogenious expansion, i.e the cards in the deck are all of the same relative importance and power level, then you can play as small or as large of a deck as you want.

That is incorrect. The expected ratios of cards stay the same, but the actual ratios you get will fluctuate more and reliability suffers because you get more lopsided hands (all business, all mana etc). If we could run decks in the range of 10 cards, we would turn 1 every single time.




Comparing Street Wraith in Storm combo to singletons in Survival isn't an accurate comparison, because those singletons are bricks that can't be cycled. Adding Street Wraith doesn't literally increase the size of your deck in regards to the ratios of how often you'll see a card in the course of a game, it just decreases the odds you'll see Lion's Eye Diamond in your hand.

I repeat, I am not criticising Street Wraith; as you said the card has excellent synergies in the deck and its value isn't only in deck thinning/being the least objectionable filler. I don't know fur sure which are the least valuable slots, but you can't cycle those for free.
I'm comparing 1-of utility to 1-of utility (also potential 'bricks' in both cases) or solid 4-ofs to solid 4-ofs.




So, you're using a stead fast truism to criticize a card that breaks the fundamental rules of the game, and as a result it doesn't accurately apply. I'm not saying it isn't relevant, because it certainly is, it's just not as clear cut as you are making it out to be.

Not. Criticising. Street. Wraith.



I agree that it's possible that as the deck approaches 56 it becomes strong, I've received a PM of some one arguing that the deck is using more land than it needs at 60 with 4 Street Wraith and 4 Mental Note, so it's quite possible that going to 13 lands, MDing Diminishing Returns and using a Burning Wish instead of the 4th Tendrils of Agony lets the deck solve the 60+ "problem" entirely. Nevertheless, all of the arguments for 60+ are still valid.

This sounds like one sensible way of doing it. Personally, I'd also call into question 4 Mental Notes. Even if there is nothing finer for building Threshold quickly, there's the mulligan problem and you risk burying a one-of that you would much rather have access to.
I might underestimate the importance of Threshold though.




By the way, even if I can't stop nagging I think you're on to something here.

thebadmagicplayer
10-21-2007, 07:10 PM
have you tried ponder instead of mental note?

ebbitten
10-21-2007, 07:56 PM
About the "TES gets along fine with 8 tutors, thats not really accurate, there has been a lot of discussion on trying to find more tutors." Grim tutor would definitly be good for MWS games atleast.

BreathWeapon
10-21-2007, 09:20 PM
That is incorrect. The expected ratios of cards stay the same, but the actual ratios you get will fluctuate more and reliability suffers because you get more lopsided hands (all business, all mana etc). If we could run decks in the range of 10 cards, we would turn 1 every single time.



.

I repeat, I am not criticising Street Wraith; as you said the card has excellent synergies in the deck and its value isn't only in deck thinning/being the least objectionable filler. I don't know fur sure which are the least valuable slots, but you can't cycle those for free.
I'm comparing 1-of utility to 1-of utility (also potential 'bricks' in both cases) or solid 4-ofs to solid 4-ofs.





Not. Criticising. Street. Wraith.




This sounds like one sensible way of doing it. Personally, I'd also call into question 4 Mental Notes. Even if there is nothing finer for building Threshold quickly, there's the mulligan problem and you risk burying a one-of that you would much rather have access to.
I might underestimate the importance of Threshold though.




By the way, even if I can't stop nagging I think you're on to something here.

1) In Magic, you're right about that because Magic is a 4x/1x CCG, but in principle, where you can categorize cards in lump sums as creatures, counters, cantrips etc. (there are CCGs with out card limitations) not much changes. That said, it wasn't a great argument to bring up on my part, because not only does it not really apply to this deck but to this game in general.

2) I realize that criticizing 60+ isn't the same as criticizing Street Wraith, but the two arguments are correlative to one another. I'm not talking about 60+ in the sense of adding another brick, I'm talking about 60+ in the sense of adding Street Wraiths "on top" of a pre-existing deck, so I can't address one with out addressing the other.

We may need to shift the argument to address the non-Street Wraith cards that are making the deck 60+ and treat the Street Wraiths as a spell slot to get to a more appropriate argument.

Like, what is the correct number of land? MD Diminishing Returns? MD Removal? 3x+ Tendrils of Agony? 3xTendrils of Agony +1 Burning Wish? etc.

3) Discarding a singleton isn't a significant problem, if it's Empty the Warrens or Diminishing Returns, you can just recur it with Ill Gotten Gains or shuffle it back into your deck with Diminishing Returns. I'm not really sure how Mental Note complicates mulligans, you don't rely on Mental Note drawing you your second land, you rely on Mental Note drawing you more land over the long haul. Maybe you could keep a hand with 2 Mental Note or Mental Note and Street Wraith, but "complicating mulligans" is a cop out argument IMO.

I don't consider it nagging, as soon as I set about writing this article, I realized the flak I'd catch for it, so I brought plenty of body armor. Some one is going to bring up the exact same points at some point, so I may as well address them now:wink:

Hopefully, other people will put their time into testing the deck on MWS or IRL and be able to contribute to the deck with some experience behind them, but that may take a couple weeks or so. I'm glad you see the promise behind the deck tho', I think it has a great deal of potential.

@TBMP

No I haven't, right now I'm testing Edge of Autumn in that slot to confirm my prejudices against that card, but I imagine that using Ponder is adequate if not slower than Mental Note. You may want to check out Strategic Planning instead, but the cc slows the deck down.

I think people just need to be more patient with Mental Note tho', it does what it's suppose to do admirably.

@Ebitten

I've never had a problem with 8 tutors in TES, but regardless this deck doesn't need more than 8 tutors because it's always cantripping it's way into the double Tendrils plan.

Benie Bederios
10-22-2007, 05:11 PM
First of all, nice deck BreathWeapon.

Though I have to agree with Iranon about sixty cards, I have another reason for it: There are some cards in the list I don't want to see (that often).

Hunting Pack. Allthough the surprise factor of the card is nice, I found it unneeded. The double green is hard to get without LED, or you are starting to fetch bad lands. If you don't draw Petal or LED the first time you can use it is turn four.

The fourth Tendrils. I really like the double Tendrils plan, but I don't like the double Tendrils draw. I agree that two is to few to kill consistantly on turn four, three is a really nice number. Easy enough to find without clogging up my hand.

Diminshing Returns. I think you need to play atleast eight winconditions or you must like gambling. Removing ten cards from the game is quite alot and it's really bad, if you don't draw in your Infernal Tutors or killconditions. TES runs 4 Burning Wish( can always tutor for a wincon), 1 Tendrils and 3 Empty the Warrens and you just four Tendrils, an Empty the Warrens and a Hunting Pack.

At final you can go down to twelve lands without any trouble, if you play sixty cards.

Anyway that is my vision on the deck. I really like it, because it isn't only a cheaper deck than Grim IGGy it's also a deck that plays alot cooler and feels better.

BB

legacyplayer0
10-22-2007, 06:27 PM
I think that what iranon is saying is that even though adding 4 Street Wraiths to a 60 card deck doesn't really add 4 cards in a traditional sense, it is still four above the minimum. The minimum number of cards is always the correct number. A 60 card deck without Street Wraith is always correct, not because there's something special about the number 60, but because 60 is the minimum number. A 64 card deck that has Street Wraith, though it still plays the same number of spells that don't cycle for 0 mana as a 60 card deck, is always incorrect, becuase it is over the minimum. 60 is better than 64 and 56 is better than 60 for the same reason; there is less variance in draws.

BreathWeapon
10-22-2007, 07:08 PM
@BB

I'm glad you like the deck, I finally cut green myself and use Abeyance in the SB. A 5 color Tendrils deck that doesn't use golden lands is over ambitious, and Abeyance is a really good card when it comes to buying time, building Threshold and protecting the combo.

I have no qualms about replacing 1 Tendrils of Agony with 1 Burning Wish and playing a mini-Wishboard, even tho' this deck handles chaff well, it always pays to have less of it.

You either hate Diminishing Returns or you love Diminishing Returns, frankly, I love Diminishing Returns, because it gives me a second storm engine, graveyard control, card advantage and builds an expansive mana base. It's really easy to just draw a Tendrils of Agony or Empty the Warrens or Mystical Tutor + Street Wraith for a win condition or Infernal Tutor + Lion's Eye Diamond for a win condition. I also find it to be the #1 card I want to draw/tutor for in a top deck war.

I think you can get away with 13 land in the 60 card version, but not any less with out adding on to your Mulligans. You actually need 3 or so lands sometimes for the more complicated, and devastating, plays this deck can set up. It's a deceptively land hungry deck, I find.

@LP0

Yeah, I understand what he's arguing, and it's by no means incorrect to argue that point, but when it comes to removing singletons or reducing lands, I'd rather go with the higher variance than possibly inaccurate ratios. I think you can easily get away with 60+ or 60-, in actual game play I have higher winning percentages with 63 than any other number. I'm sure hard core Spikes and mathematically inclined people can find the right equation for a 60 card deck, but I'm neither, so it's easier for me, and I imagine most other people, to run 60+.

@People

For those interested, our rough SB against aggro-control and control is -4 Mental Note, -3 Tendrils of Agony (or -2 Tendrils of Agony and -1 Burning Wish) for +4 Abeyance and +3 Empty the Warrens. We may move to a MD Wipe Away instead of a MD Massacre to deal with Counterbalance and Gaddok Teeg if they're troublesome, SB the MD Massacre and cut the other SB Massacre for another Wishboard slot.

You can vary your SBing, but cutting Mental Note for Abeyance is usually the correct call against Tormod's Crypt happy opponent's.

Bardo
10-23-2007, 07:30 PM
Moved to N&D.

Benie Bederios
10-24-2007, 02:44 PM
Moved to N&D.

True I was wondering why this deck wasn't moved earlier...

I started to test my this deck( the 64 card version and my own 60 card version) and it was treating my well.

First of all I did some goldfishes and compared it to QSI and IGGy-pop. It was quite remarkable how many goldfishes the deck could produce with double Tendrils before turn 4. The problem was that it almost never killed before turn 3, but that could be because my playinskills, when I've done a hundred goldfishes I will post the results.

Next to that I start playtesting against not so Tier 1 decks. This deck crushes control and aggro and can beat counters fairly well too. I was really feeling good about the deck until I played some games against Mono black aggro. The deck didn't play LD( except Wasteland) but a full set of Duress, Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach and do those cards hit this deck hard. The 60 card version didn't play Diminishing Returns so I couldn't get my hand back, but even with the 64 version the Returns weren't that good. I normally needed to spent most mana for the Returns and you only play 16 mana spells opposed to TES with 24 to 27. I didn't drew enough mana or a tutor to continue comboing and the next turn I would be hit by all the discard of my opponent.

I had a question: Why wasn't Grim Tutor not used in the deck. Is it solely because of the price tag or also another reason. You mentioned it in your opening post, but it wasn't clear. I think the card could be tested.

Anyway I'm going to test to cards in my sixty card version a second IGGy. This means I can combo easier when I'm hit with discard or a Draw Four.


I think you can get away with 13 land in the 60 card version, but not any less with out adding on to your Mulligans. You actually need 3 or so lands sometimes for the more complicated, and devastating, plays this deck can set up. It's a deceptively land hungry deck, I find.

Yeah I forgot to count my Tundra's( they were proxies when I tested it) I had 14 lands not 12. I might go down to 13 now to fit in the IGG.

Lets get this deck back to the Open Forum.

BB

thebadmagicplayer
10-24-2007, 03:09 PM
It was quite remarkable how many goldfishes the deck could produce with double Tendrils before turn 4.

I did some testing with this too and I got to agree that it is nice to be able to beat my friend's thresh deck once in a while. I was testing the build with ponder instead of mental note and with the copy of hunting pack.
I'm now in love with Hunting Pack. being able to combo out at instant speed on the declare blockers step is priceless. "I play 7 4/4 cat tokens and block your mages and mongoose FTW!"
Other than being a janky win condition it gave me a card that the other guy wont name with M.Mage unless he has the other three of them out.
I think i'm switching to playing this deck over iggy.

oh, and i'm going to test B.wish to see if a wish board is the way to go with the sb.

Tao
10-24-2007, 05:31 PM
I did some testing with this too and I got to agree that it is nice to be able to beat my friend's thresh deck once in a while. I was testing the build with ponder instead of mental note and with the copy of hunting pack.
I'm now in love with Hunting Pack. being able to combo out at instant speed on the declare blockers step is priceless. "I play 7 4/4 cat tokens and block your mages and mongoose FTW!"
Other than being a janky win condition it gave me a card that the other guy wont name with M.Mage unless he has the other three of them out.
I think i'm switching to playing this deck over iggy.

oh, and i'm going to test B.wish to see if a wish board is the way to go with the sb.

Combo in the declare attacker step or you can't blöck.

However, 64 cards is bad. If you want the to play 1 Hunting pack and 4 Street Wraith, then play a 60 cards deck wih 1 Hunting Pack and 4 Street Wraith.

BreathWeapon
10-24-2007, 11:48 PM
Well, I don't think this thread belongs in N&D for the same reason that U/g/b Threshold doesn't belong in N&D, the deck is just a variation on an established archetype, altho' the variations are significant.

Not a big deal tho'.

@BB

Discard isn't a difficult match up, the trick is to play your LEDs and Petals before they can discard them and then leave your Fetchlands unbroken. Once you find your Mystical Tutor, you put your bomb on the top of your deck and try to go off. If you're playing 2 Ill Gotten Gains, and I've done it myself, it should be easier to deal with discard based decks.

You should be able to go off on at least turn three with LED and Chant, you may want to pay more attention to what hands you're keeping and what you're tutoring for if you're not winning on turn three with double Tendrils or LED. If you're playing Diminishing Returns before you have Threshold and your opponent has a Force of Will in his graveyard, you're probably misplaying it.

Edit: I just reread that post, yeah, you usually don't go off before turn 3 unless you started the game with LED in your hand or you had a savage Brainstorm.

I don't use Grim Tutor because Grim Tutor is slow and Infernal Tutor does everything, or almost everything, Grim Tutor can do. You could probably get away with playing one or two in the MD, but I don't see a pressing need for any more tutors after Street Wraith turned Mystical Tutor into a full fledged tutor.

@TBMP

I'm glad you enjoy the deck.

@Tao

Playing over 60 with Wraith doesn't make much of a difference.

thebadmagicplayer
10-25-2007, 08:12 PM
I just did a little bit of gold fishing with the deck with a couple copies of B.Wish and it felt really complicated and unneeded. I feel the SB would be stronger with Xantid Swarms and extra ETWs in the board along with Bob and some bounce spells.
Thoughts?
T.B.M.P.

EDIT: @Tao: thanks for the rules clarifacation

BreathWeapon
10-25-2007, 08:53 PM
I just did a little bit of gold fishing with the deck with a couple copies of B.Wish and it felt really complicated and unneeded. I feel the SB would be stronger with Xantid Swarms and extra ETWs in the board along with Bob and some bounce spells.
Thoughts?
T.B.M.P.

EDIT: @Tao: thanks for the rules clarifacation

If you do play a wish board, it should be a very small one. You already have Empty the Warrens in the SB, so all you need is a Tendrils of Agony, removal spell (you should SB Massacre and MD Wipe Away in this instance) and a Diminishing Returns.

My SB looks like

3 Empty the Warrens
4 Abeyance
4 Echoing Truth
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Massacre
1 Open

so the 1 MD Burning Wish isn't really hurting anything, all I have to do is find a white sorcery speed Disenchant effect and I'm good to go.

Silverdragon
10-25-2007, 09:23 PM
If you do play a wish board, it should be a very small one. You already have Empty the Warrens in the SB, so all you need is a Tendrils of Agony, removal spell (you should SB Massacre and MD Wipe Away in this instance) and a Diminishing Returns.

My SB looks like

3 Empty the Warrens
4 Abeyance
4 Echoing Truth
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Massacre
1 Open

so the 1 MD Burning Wish isn't really hurting anything, all I have to do is find a white sorcery speed Disenchant effect and I'm good to go.

Terashi's Grasp fits the fetchable Disenchant effect and it even costs 3 mana (getting around common Chalice and Counterbalance setups).

xsockmonkeyx
10-26-2007, 01:53 AM
BW, If you had a gun to your head and you had to cut 4 cards then what would you cut?

Volt
10-26-2007, 03:13 AM
Let me be blunt. 64 cards is dumb. This is not open for discussion or debate. Cut the Mental Notes (or whatever) and be done with it.

thebadmagicplayer
10-26-2007, 06:37 AM
Let me be blunt. 64 cards is dumb. This is not open for discussion or debate. Cut the Mental Notes (or whatever) and be done with it.

the deck works so 64 obviously isn't that bad for the deck.

also street wraith is different than running normal cards because it cycles. I count Street Wraith as about a 1/4 to a 1/2 of a card so its really feels like I'm only running 61-62.

BreathWeapon
10-26-2007, 03:41 PM
BW, If you had a gun to your head and you had to cut 4 cards then what would you cut?

This is as compact as I can get it,

MD

3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Burning Wish
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
4 Street Wraith
4 Orim's Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

SB
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Abeyance
1 Wipe Away
3 Repeal*
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Massacre
1 Terashi's Grasp (Thanks TBMP)

Edit: You may want to replace the SB Diminishing Returns with an Ill Gotten Gains.

*I'm just testing Repeal at the moment, tho' I have the feeling it could be awful against Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors based decks. Aggro will just drop their Chalices at zero or risk getting blown out of the water, so not being able to deal with Chalice at 1 against them "shouldn't" be a big problem.

It runs smoother than I thought it would, even when Mental Note discards Ill Gotten Gains or Empty the Warrens, you can still get Empty the Warrens by paying + 1R for Burning Wish or default to Diminishing Returns, which is feasible with LED. Discarding Burning Wish sucks, but the odds are easily in your favor, and if you have the mana you can recover it with Ill Gotten Gains.

The deck bends over to Gaddok Teeg ATM, so you may want to look into SBing Crippling Fatigue and using another bounce spell at some point (I hear Chain of Vapor is sick).

As an aside, I've seen a few people misplaying this deck on MWS. Remember that if Storm Wraith is in your graveyard you can still go off with the IGG chain with just a Mystical Tutor and a Lion's Eye Diamond. Sometimes you'll discard Street Wraith to Mental Note, draw Mystical Tutor and be ready to go off before you even realize it.

Street Wraith really is that good.

Edit: Discarding Street Wraith with Mental Note is also the reason I think Ponder has no place.

Benie Bederios
10-27-2007, 12:55 PM
This is as compact as I can get it,

MD

3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Burning Wish
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
4 Street Wraith
4 Orim's Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

SB
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Abeyance
1 Wipe Away
3 Repeal*
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Massacre
1 Terashi's Grasp (Thanks TBMP)

Edit: You may want to replace the SB Diminishing Returns with an Ill Gotten Gains.

*I'm just testing Repeal at the moment, tho' I have the feeling it could be awful against Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors based decks. Aggro will just drop their Chalices at zero or risk getting blown out of the water, so not being able to deal with Chalice at 1 against them "shouldn't" be a big problem.

It runs smoother than I thought it would, even when Mental Note discards Ill Gotten Gains or Empty the Warrens, you can still get Empty the Warrens by paying + 1R for Burning Wish or default to Diminishing Returns, which is feasible with LED. Discarding Burning Wish sucks, but the odds are easily in your favor, and if you have the mana you can recover it with Ill Gotten Gains.

The deck bends over to Gaddok Teeg ATM, so you may want to look into SBing Crippling Fatigue and using another bounce spell at some point (I hear Chain of Vapor is sick).

As an aside, I've seen a few people misplaying this deck on MWS. Remember that if Storm Wraith is in your graveyard you can still go off with the IGG chain with just a Mystical Tutor and a Lion's Eye Diamond. Sometimes you'll discard Street Wraith to Mental Note, draw Mystical Tutor and be ready to go off before you even realize it.

Street Wraith really is that good.

Edit: Discarding Street Wraith with Mental Note is also the reason I think Ponder has no place.

Hi,

I've been playing almost the same list as that.

I don't play Burning Wish because it is horrid at finding answers. If you want to destroy a artifact or enchantment, you have to go Mystical Tutor -> Burning Wish -> Terashi's Grasp. That is is 6 mana over three colors at sorcery speed. I rather go Mystical Tutor -> Echoing Truth.

If you want to keep Burning Wish I would suggest Eye of Nowhere in the board as it can bounce any permanent.

Gaddock Teeg isn't really a problem, most deck who play it won't have counters, so a Single Echoing Truth is enough to deal with it.

About your SB Repeal isn't that good I believe. In Vintage it is used, because the most used hate is 0 mana( Chalice of the Void and Tormods Crypt) and you could bounce artifact mana( Sol Ring, Mana Vault) without mana loss. In this deck your better of with other bounce. I use Wipe Away, Chain of Vapor and Rebuild in my Sideboard. I also have Dark Confidant in my board.

BB

Bovinious
10-27-2007, 01:04 PM
Let me be blunt. 64 cards is dumb. This is not open for discussion or debate. Cut the Mental Notes (or whatever) and be done with it.

QFT, seriously, 64 cards is just wrong, and Mental Note just sucks sucks suck, in all contexts including Combo and Threshold alike! Not like you even need threshold that much, just for Cabal Rit...also WTF @ Hunting Pack? if you draw triple LED shouldnt you have some other not awful way of winning that doesnt involve casting a 7CC green instant?

xsockmonkeyx
10-27-2007, 03:52 PM
60 card list

Thanks, Ill start with that.

BreathWeapon
10-27-2007, 05:33 PM
@BB

IMO, Burning Wish is one of the most important cards in the deck, because it gives the deck that thin margin of redundancy you need in case Mental Note decides to discard your singletons. As long as the lone MD permanent that I have to deal with is Meddling Mage, then Burning Wish->Massacre is either more than sufficient or preferable to MD bounce (you're going to cast either one as a Sorcery and Burning Wish->Massacre builds Storm) . Terashi's Grasp is a terrible, terrible card, but the slot is as necessary as it is terrible for dealing with random threats like Solitary Confinement. Eye of Nowhere seems promising tho', I was also looking at Turbulet Dreams as a possible sweeper/Threshold generator, but UU can strain the mana base.

Repeal is solid, if Faerie Stompy or Gaddok Teeg go vogue, then I'll reconsider the slot, but as it stands the tempo/cantrip has been useful enough to justify its inclusion so far.

Dark Confidant is a card that I've thought a lot about, ATM I can't afford to run him due to the wish board, but if I could bring in a set of Abeyance and Dark Confidant would be sick. IDK, he seems broken, but I'm not certain he's actually necessary. Maybe you bring him in against Counterbalance? Would you cut SB Empty the Warrens and bounce for him in my list?

@Bovinious

I laid out the reasoning for 60+, and it's sound reasoning. Whether or not you agree with it is another issue, but in actual testing 60+ hasn't affected the win margin and even increased it in some instances where MD bounce decided the game in my favor.

Mental Note, and to an extent Street Wraith, is the entire reason to use this deck. Mental Note increases the average goldfish at least a turn, if not more, and discarding Infernal Tutor, Mystical Tutor, Street Wraith, Lion's Eye Diamond etc. gives the deck "free plays" that wouldn't otherwise be there.

Hunting Pack was an experiment, and despite appearances it's not difficult to cast the card with a single LED or cast it during the opponent's turn with some set up.

The deck to a large degree started out as a thought experiment, and the article charts those thoughts. What resulted was a Storm combo deck that can claim a favorable match up against Threshold so long as said deck doesn't MD Counterbalance, and given the current meta, that's saying a lot. The last list I posted is the list I plan on using, which addresses your "concerns" about 60+ and Hunting Pack, but if you can't get over your irrational hatred of Mental Note, then this deck isn't for you.

@XsockmonkeyX

You're welcome, good luck.

Edit: I am ditching Diminishing Returns for Ill Gotten Gains in the SB.

Benie Bederios
10-28-2007, 10:38 AM
IMO, Burning Wish is one of the most important cards in the deck, because it gives the deck that thin margin of redundancy you need in case Mental Note decides to discard your singletons. As long as the lone MD permanent that I have to deal with is Meddling Mage, then Burning Wish->Massacre is either more than sufficient or preferable to MD bounce (you're going to cast either one as a Sorcery and Burning Wish->Massacre builds Storm) . Terashi's Grasp is a terrible, terrible card, but the slot is as necessary as it is terrible for dealing with random threats like Solitary Confinement. Eye of Nowhere seems promising tho', I was also looking at Turbulet Dreams as a possible sweeper/Threshold generator, but UU can strain the mana base.

I don't think double blue mana should be a problem, if your all your lands can tap for blue.

Just to play Burning Wish for Massacre for Storm seems terribly weak. Also with double Ill-Gotten Gains in my list, I rarely need that storm count. I started to play a Massacre MD now, but don't know wich slot I should give up for it: Mental Note or Orim's Chant.



Repeal is solid, if Faerie Stompy or Gaddok Teeg go vogue, then I'll reconsider the slot, but as it stands the tempo/cantrip has been useful enough to justify its inclusion so far.

The problem is that it costs so much. You rarely see any hate of 0 or 1 CC. You can play around Tormod's Crypt. A Chalice for 1, stops Repeal already. The real danger starts at 2 mana, with Meddling Mage and nasty enchantments like Arcane's Laboratory and Pyrostatic Pillar. You than have to pay 3 or 4 mana, to bounce a permanent, wich is to much for deck, that want's to win on turn 3 or 4.



Dark Confidant is a card that I've thought a lot about, ATM I can't afford to run him due to the wish board, but if I could bring in a set of Abeyance and Dark Confidant would be sick. IDK, he seems broken, but I'm not certain he's actually necessary. Maybe you bring him in against Counterbalance? Would you cut SB Empty the Warrens and bounce for him in my list?


I would cut the wishboard:tongue:

On a serious note, I think you can drop an Empty the Warrens, an Abeyance and 1 or 2 bounce spells, to play Dark Confidant. I only play 2 Abeyances in the board( allthough I play to Pyroblasts for testing too.)


QFT, seriously, 64 cards is just wrong, and Mental Note just sucks sucks suck, in all contexts including Combo and Threshold alike! Not like you even need threshold that much, just for Cabal Rit...also WTF @ Hunting Pack? if you draw triple LED shouldnt you have some other not awful way of winning that doesnt involve casting a 7CC green instant?

Mental Note is one of the nicer things of the deck, and you can't really call a card bad, that was played in succesfull Threshold and IGGy builts. It does everything the deck needs: It cantrips, it's an instant, it builds threshold, and it makes Ill-Gotten Gains that much better.

Can anyone help me with sideboarding though, because I really suck in it. I don't even know went to bring in the additional Empty the Warrens... Or what to remove from the MD.

BB

Bovinious
10-28-2007, 12:39 PM
Mental Note is one of the nicer things of the deck, and you can't really call a card bad, that was played in succesfull Threshold and IGGy builts. It does everything the deck needs: It cantrips, it's an instant, it builds threshold, and it makes Ill-Gotten Gains that much better.


Well when you take good deck like Threshold, sometimes it will still do well with 4 awful cards in there, I could play Manaless Ichorid with 4 Questing Phelddagrif's and still do alright, and most well placing Thresh lists dont run Note, its a minority that do (of the ones that do well, anyway). Ive never seen an Iggy Pop list that ran Mental Note and was a success, but no one plays that deck anyways.

Do you know how many cards you play with Threshold? 4. BIG DEAL. I'd rather tutor up LED's and go broken then mill myself for Threshold and try and use Cabal Rit. Oh and the singleton IGG you play really benefits...you cant even establish a loop with 1 IGG. And cantripping doesnt make it good either, Bandage cantrips as well and basically does the same thing as Mental Note, Hell it may even be better if Note ends up dumping useful stuff (which should be often if you run useful things).

Maybe that didnt make total sense as I am no 'master' of storm combo, but the point still stands and is valid that Mental Note just plain blows.

BreathWeapon
10-28-2007, 01:56 PM
Well when you take good deck like Threshold, sometimes it will still do well with 4 awful cards in there, I could play Manaless Ichorid with 4 Questing Phelddagrif's and still do alright, and most well placing Thresh lists dont run Note, its a minority that do (of the ones that do well, anyway). Ive never seen an Iggy Pop list that ran Mental Note and was a success, but no one plays that deck anyways.

Do you know how many cards you play with Threshold? 4. BIG DEAL. I'd rather tutor up LED's and go broken then mill myself for Threshold and try and use Cabal Rit. Oh and the singleton IGG you play really benefits...you cant even establish a loop with 1 IGG. And cantripping doesnt make it good either, Bandage cantrips as well and basically does the same thing as Mental Note, Hell it may even be better if Note ends up dumping useful stuff (which should be often if you run useful things).

Maybe that didnt make total sense as I am no 'master' of storm combo, but the point still stands and is valid that Mental Note just plain blows..

Yes, 4 cards with Threshold is a BIG DEAL, because Threshold is the difference between turning Cabal Ritual from a bad Dark Ritual into a superior Lion's Eye Diamond that can be tutored for with Mystical Tutor. Mental Note increases the goldfish speed of the deck by a turn, or possibly two turns depending on the cards you discard to it, and tutoring for Lion's Eye Diamond requires 3cc cards that are awful, not to mention protection cards to go along with the Lion's Eye Diamond.

Mental Note, in a deck that is more reliant on achieving Threshold than U/g/w Threshold is non-negotiable. If you want to rail against Mental Note, there's a thread for that, but if you want to learn how to play this deck and why Mental Note is invaluable, then feel free to add some constructive criticism and/or questions.

@BB

The problem with UU is that it's difficult to co-ordinate with R for Burning Wish, W for Orim's Chant and B for Dark Ritual. Terashi's Grasp costs W+2 mana from a Ritual, so it's easier to cast than either of the UU cards in a lot of instances.

Burning Wish->Massacre is the same as Burning Wish->Bounce on Meddling Mage except that Massacre is free, which allows the deck to cast Burning Wish->Massacre and Orim's Chant on the same turn to go off. You're also just looking at Burning Wish as bounce, Burning Wish has to be looked at as the second Ill Gotten Gains, the second Empty the Warrens, the fourth Tendrils of Agony and business all rolled up into one card. Burning Wish, for me, is the reason the 60 card version of this deck works.

At the moment, I'm fine with Repeal for the reasons I stated. If I run into problems I'll look into Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth or Rushing River as replacements. I don't think the CC is relevant against blues decks, because no one should be SBing in non Split Second bounce against blue decks any way, and 3cc is in this deck's range for bounce, other wise Wipe Away wouldn't be playable. Repeal may not be the best possible bounce spell, but Repeal Time Walks when there is nothing to bounce, and there's a lot to be said about that, IMO.

SBing based off of the 60 card list I posted above is as follows,

You can SB out either Mental Note, Street Wraith or 2/3 Tendrils of Agony.

Mental Note is SBed out against blue decks that bring in Tormod's Crypt in favor of Abeyance, or if the opponent doesn't have anything to bring in, Street Wraith is SBed out in favor of Abeyance. If you play with Dark Confidant, then I would SB out both Mental Note and Street Wraith for Abeyance and Dark Confidant. You can SB out 2/3 Tendrils of Agony, 2/3 depending on whether or not you are playing with Burning Wish, for the Empty the Warrens, but you don't ever have to do this. If you need to SB in Wipe Away, you can SB out a Street Wraith etc. Orim's Chant is SBed out against aggro in favor of Abeyance or bounce.

As an aside, I think I'm going to be cutting 2 of the 3 SB Empty the Warrens and 2 bounce for the Dark Confidants.

TeenieBopper
10-28-2007, 07:13 PM
I've ignored this thread for too long.

No. Just no. Absolutely fucking not.

There's a reason 99.99999999% of all pros decklists run only 60 cards. It's because it's optimal. And it'd be 100% if Gabe Walls wasn't dumb.

If you honestly think that running more than 60 cards in any deck, let alone a combo deck, is justified, or have "sound reasoning" for running more than 60, then you have the most fundamentally flawed understanding of the game ever.

Don't run more than 60 cards. Ever. Always, always, always cut it down to 60. [snip]

Actually, I agree with you, but posting this way just invites more flaming. Chill it out. - Bardo

calosso
10-28-2007, 07:25 PM
I've ignored this thread for too long.

No. Just no. Absolutely fucking not.

There's a reason 99.99999999% of all pros decklists run only 60 cards. It's because it's optimal. And it'd be 100% if Gabe Walls wasn't dumb.

If you honestly think that running more than 60 cards in any deck, let alone a combo deck, is justified, or have "sound reasoning" for running more than 60, then you have the most fundamentally flawed understanding of the game ever.

Don't run more than 60 cards. Ever. Always, always, always cut it down to 60.

No, you are wrong that all decks need to be 60 cards decks. In standard if you go to 61 cards can be very useful in teachings decks. Have access to a silver bullet is very useful. Don't be narrow minded 1 card will not make a difference. If you want me to name some pros other then Gabe Walls who runs more than 60 cards then just pm me and I will send you a list.

Now I will agree with you that there is no need to run a 64 card deck, that is just stupid.

BreathWeapon
10-28-2007, 07:49 PM
Look, if you guys want to argue against the praxis on the first page that's fine, but don't clutter the thread with useless "60 cards is optimal" arguments that are based on pseudo tautologies that I can't defend against. The "60 vs 61" argument is irrelevant, the praxis on the first page is just an inversion of the "Street Wraith=56" argument in a deck that benefited from Street Wraith but couldn't fit it into the 60 card constraint.

Burning Wish turned the deck into a 60 card deck, so it's a moot point to bring up now any way.

TeenieBopper
10-28-2007, 07:51 PM
If you can show me five different PT top 8 decklists that run more than 60 cards, I'll rescind my point about the pros. I won't, however, rescind my comment that 60 cards is always superior to 61.

Media314r8
11-01-2007, 01:25 PM
the deck works so 64 obviously isn't that bad for the deck.

also street wraith is different than running normal cards because it cycles. I count Street Wraith as about a 1/4 to a 1/2 of a card so its really feels like I'm only running 61-62.

I can build a RB goblins deck that runs 64 card by adding 1 mountain and three boggart harbingers to serve as matrons 5-7, as it would 'add consistancy,' and the deck would still WORK. In fact I might even place 1st again with it. Would my 1st place finish imply that my 64 card RB goblin deck was better than my 60 card RB goblin deck? Or that it was more consistant? NO! Simple math says I want friggin aether vial/lackey in my opening hand, and with 64 cards (though with 7 'matrons', ill see lacky more consistantly later on, I will SEE him less in my opening hand in a 64 card deck than in my original 60 card deck. Less cards = more consistant.

YOU want to see LED, wish/tutor, and mana accelerators. You DONT want to see a mystery hand of 2 street wraiths, 4 mana aceelerators, and a land, as you have NO IDEA what those wraiths will be when you cycle them.

MORE INFO >> LESS INFO. LED in hand >> a street wraith in hand that will ~possibly~ cycle into an LED.

Wraith is a fine card, I can see with the mystical tutors why you would want to run him, but for the love of god, tone it down to 60 cards so this thread can die!

EDIT: the 64 card logic in this thread makes me want to drop-kick babies.

matelml
11-01-2007, 01:40 PM
I agree with playing 60 cards is almost always better and also in this case, but there are reasons to run more. The most importent one I believe is that you won't draw your tuterable one-off's as much and your one-off lands. After that you have the argument of consistency. If the 4-off rule didn't exist people should run more than 60 cards to improve the exactness of the percenteges of different cards your deck. This still aplies but now you have the diadvantage of decreasing the odds of the good cards.

BreathWeapon
11-02-2007, 12:10 AM
You can't compare a Goblin to Street Wraith, because changing the ratios isn't the same as changing the variance, Street Wraith has no affect on the odds you'll see a card in a game, it just has an affect on the odds you'll see a card in a hand.

The deck IS 60 cards.

The deck doesn't need LED and a lot of the time it doesn't want LED either, that's the point of the design, it doesn't have to risk being Mind Twisted to win the game by the third turn

Bryant Cook
11-02-2007, 10:40 AM
How exactly is this better than TES or Belcher? I mean as Teenie Bopper has stated 64 cards is ridiculous and NO lion's eye diamond? This deck is pointless.

matelml
11-02-2007, 10:59 AM
It does play LED and I don't think he said this deck is better than TES or Belcher.

Bryant Cook
11-02-2007, 11:48 AM
It does play LED and I don't think he said this deck is better than TES or Belcher.

Sorry, I must've mis-read on the LED part then. Still, generally when proposing a deck you give reasons to play this over deck X,Y, and Z.

Benie Bederios
11-02-2007, 01:27 PM
Allright here you go:

Why play this over TES
The manabase is more stable( higher landcount and fetches). Fetches make Brainstorm better too. This deck is a little slower then TES, but due the high number of Cantrips, it goes easier to the perfect hand. It also makes opening hands more reliable( but this effect is countered by the difficult choices of Street Wraith.)

Why play this over IGGy-Pop
Your faster than IGGy-Pop and you can fight through graveyard hate easier, especially game 1. This deck can also go faster into double Tendrils. The flipside is the lack of Grim Tutor, but I was never fond of that card and I couldn't afford it.

Why play this over Spanish Inquisition
To be honest I'm still playing SI over this. This deck is alot more stable and has G1 protection. You also keep a nice high life total until your comboing out.

Why play this over Solidarity
It's easier to play in the first place, next to that it's alot faster without giving up much of the game against control.

Anyway this is just off the top of my head and yes, there are probably alot reasons to name why TES or IGGy is better than this deck, that's why this deck is in Development and TES and IGGy in Established or DTB.

To make something clear

THIS DECK PLAYES SIXTY CARDS NOW

Maybe the tread titel should be changed, because 2/3 part of this thread is about this and not about actual card choices.

BB

Peter_Rotten
11-02-2007, 02:46 PM
Maybe the tread titel should be changed, because 2/3 part of this thread is about this and not about actual card choices.

Tread titel changed.

emidln
11-03-2007, 10:37 PM
Why play this over IGGy-Pop
Your faster than IGGy-Pop and you can fight through graveyard hate easier, especially game 1. This deck can also go faster into double Tendrils. The flipside is the lack of Grim Tutor, but I was never fond of that card and I couldn't afford it.

There actually is no flipside. The only version of Iggy that runs Grim Tutor is my deck, and my deck is a lot less graveyard dependent than this tendrils build. Over true Iggy, the only thing this appears to do better is not play Intuition and Leyline of the Void choosing cantrips instead. This deck is down lands compared to both my build and the standard build which will hurt you significantly if you are forced to go to the long game against something like Landstill/Thresh (which happens quite often).

As far as I can tell, this deck is almost the same as later builds of Grim Iggy. The 0-2 Grim Tutor, 0-4 Draw4, 1 extra IGG, 2 Chant and 1 Bounce are easily considered meta choices. Builds without Grim Tutors have included the extra chants and more draw4s, but I could easily see the inclusion of something more conservative like Ponder or Mental Note over it. Bounce over Burning Wish is purely a meta decision. What this tells me is that other people have arrived at roughly the same list my team has. This helps further justify the deck to have multiple people reach the same core list independently.



Why play this over Spanish Inquisition
To be honest I'm still playing SI over this. This deck is alot more stable and has G1 protection. You also keep a nice high life total until your comboing out.


I'm not entirely sure this is even true for all SI builds. You have roughly the same amount of protection and it's more stable if you are aiming for a turn 1 kill with SI. Aiming for a turn 2-4 kill like you do in this build gives you a deck that rarely ever fizzles when applied with Therapy-laden SI.

BreathWeapon
11-06-2007, 03:52 PM
I apologize for being absent,

The reason to use this Storm combo deck over other Storm combo decks is that it's one of the first Storm combo decks that turned the aggro-control and control match ups into a fair fight.

Comparing it to IGGY POP, it does what IGGY POP did one to two turns faster. The land count hasn't been an issue for me at all, with both Street Wraith and Mental Note off setting the number of lands in the deck. I seem to have an easier time finding lands, because the land ratio is the same land ratio as IGGY POP, if you consider Street Wraith null space, and Mental Note cantrips/discards dead cards to keep digging for lands. You also don't have Intuition, Ill Gotten Gains or Leyline of the Void in the deck to make achieving Hellbent with Infernal Tutor impossible. Tendrils of Agony is the best high cc card you can have in your deck compared to the other options, because even tho' you can't get Hellbent, tutoring for another Tendrils of Agony is an effective game plan, even against aggro.

Comparing it to SI, SI has its own problems, life loss, dead cards, low land counts and general inconsistency. I like SI, but it's a deck that mulligans a lot, and mulligans are problematic against aggro-control and control. It tries to counter act this with blockers, but the problem with that is it just Time Walks the opponent into dropping his Meddling Mage, Counterbalance, Gaddock Teeg etc. put you in top deck mode and lets them sculpt a hand. SI doesn't have access to removal either, so when permanent based hits the board, SI is screwed.

Comparing it to Belcher, Belcher is an easily exploited, binary deck that disregards skill and suffers from splash hate. If you're in an environment that Storm combo can easily exploit, then you should be playing Belcher over any other Storm combo deck (except for SI). If you're in an environment that turns Islands side ways more than creatures, then Belcher is at best a coin flip deck that marginalizes skill. That's not a bad thing in and of itself if you're a new player, but it's not something a seasoned player wants to rely on.

Comparing it to TES, the deck is a little slower than TES, but it's also a lot more stable than TES. TES mulligans harder and puts itself in situations where it has to keep a hand full of mana and a single bomb, where this deck can keep most hands and just Brainstorm/Fetchland/Mental Note and Street Wraith into a good hand while hitting its land drops. Double Tendrils of Agony is a better plan than a single Empty the Warrens, and Tendrils of Agony and Threshold Cabal Rituals make you inevitable. I think TES is stuck in a Tier 1.5 rut against Landstill and Threshold, and while it can win, it's fighting an uphill battle. This deck forces them to come to you, while retaining a similar fundamental turn.

Also, Red Rituals and Empty the Warrens have become the norm, most people have no idea how to deal with this deck at the moment, and even those that do have a lot harder time figuring out what to counter in a real game. You never feel compelled to commit with this deck, so it's "easier" to pilot and doesn't run into the Mind Twist/Wrath of God problem of Red Ritual decks. It's a deck that grows on you really fast, and I don't think I'll be going back to TES after playing it. All it really need is some one with more time than I have to take it to a tournament.

@Burning Wish

I think the card is awesome, because it covers so much ground, but I could see dropping it in favor of Wipe Away and SB space.